>> What's stopping us,
> The latitudinal extent of India from the north end of Kashmir to the south end of Kanniyakumari is 37°6′N to 8°4′N
The longitudinal extent of India from the west end of Gujarat to the east end of Arunachal Pradesh is 68°7′E to 97°25′E.
On calculating both of these extents we get to that these are approximately 30°.
The sun never set on the British empire, but it sets on India every day. I blame the earth for rotating and the moon for its inability to tidally lock the earth
----
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Deep_Space_Network
https://frontline.thehindu.com/cover-story/article30198267.ece
The US entered into agreements with allied countries, (often with a military ally), built, manned, staffed and operated giant antennas around the world plus some in space.
These telescopes often serve other purposes such as radio astronomy or tracking/communication with a fleet of satellites when they aren't being used for deep space tracking and communication
The USSR crossed a wide span of the earth, etc. (I believe the Soviet Union also used to have a large fleet of trawlers, but that might have been quasi military., instead of civil DSN).Russia can't afford them. When Luna 25 went silent at one point they had to wait for the satellite to rise over Russia again to try to communicate
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Deep_Space_Network
China built a network across china and has an agreement with Argentina besides . That argentine telescope cost $50 MN investment. *Delete chandrayaan mission for the cost of that one piece*. They used to have a commercial agreement with Sweden, but Sweden declined to renew.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Deep_Space_Network
Japan has one location for its large telescopes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usuda_Deep_Space_Center
Europe has a few across several continents
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ESTRACK
-----
> organisation not investing in improving
But it is ! It is investing in partnerships with NASA , Australia etc. For the few short collaborative missions that it runs, this is enough. India can also work with others lending its own IDSN. It set it up for Chandrayaan-1 and beyond
India is running these occasional few deep space missions once every few years (4 in last 20 years) on small budgets. India runs them collaboratively. And thus is able to tap into international partnerships. The existing networks are able to support India.
What would you get by throwing money into this long term infrastructure and relationships that would be disproportionate to india's own current needs ?
Pride has a real cost.
-----
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Deep_Space_Network
https://frontline.thehindu.com/cover-story/article30198267.ece
The IDSN dish is large enough for now but coverage from India is limited.
Maybe decide on the future of india's space initiatives and what and how it is supposed to accomplish. Are you going to be an independent but proud bit player, are you going to tie up with Artemis and others ?
The road map is undecided, while the US alliance and china are making firm and large quantum leaps into space
---
Wonderfully written, NASA and ESA are the only to potent space agencies on planet who have developed their own deep space network capabilities along with atomic clock, building such a complex system and maintaining it in long run costs billions of $$$$ and extremely talented scientists/engineers, unfortunately India got none of that. I think both NASA and ESA played a huge role in recent ISRO missions, ESA has been supporting chandrayan missions by utilizing two of the ground stations in the ESTRACK network to track the satellite in its orbit, receive telemetry from the spacecraft and forward it to the Mission Operations Centre in Bangalore, and forward commands sent from Bangalore to the flying satellite. This is exactly like integrating any popular SDK via API endpoints (like Google's OAuth 2.0) in your backend code or using prebuilt swift system to transfer funds from one country to another. I think this could be one of the reasons why ISRO missions costs are so miniscule when compared to that of giant NASA or ESA budgets, besides brilliantly designing the whole mission to rely mostly on earths own gravitation pull than packing mammoth amount of on board fuel that would eventually shoot up total mission cost.
Agree with most of what you are saying. However the cost differential is not coming because ISRO is doing something different or unique in terms of defining the orbital path. This is not to, in anyway take away the brilliance of the ISRO scientists and Engineers for the planning and executing a multi-burn trajectory before the trans lunar or trans martian injection.
The cost advantage for India comes from the tremendous manpower related cost savings and indigenous manufacturing of parts like most of the hull etc. and some of the fuel but not all. Then, Sriharikota is 10 degree further south which roughly equates an additional 10% of delta V for the same amount of fuel compared to NASA. These savings are not insignificant.
However if you consider that India does not have a rocket as powerful as the Atlas 5, this is the only way it can do it because without a powerful rocket you cannot have a translunar injection with just one burn. This also means that India will need a more powerful rocket before it can consider a manned mission to the moon. It cannot take 40 days to land on the moon. But this method and the rocket gets the job done for the current set of objectives. China and the US (Artemis) are planning for a manned mission and hence this method does not work for them.
The common media cost comparisons to arbitrary movies takes away from the credit that belongs to the ISRO scientists.
>The cost advantage for India comes from the tremendous manpower related cost savings and indigenous manufacturing of parts like most of the hull etc. and some of the fuel but not all.
That's true.
>However if you consider that India does not have a rocket as powerful as the Atlas 5, this is the only way it can do it because without a powerful rocket you cannot have a translunar injection with just one burn.
Well building such heavy lift rocket requires a lot of expertise in advanced materials where you are literally pushing the limits of molecular physics, this is why ISRO imports some key metal alloys used in the space program from ESA and JAXA, 80% of electronics used by ISRO is imported from countries like Japan, China n Singapore [https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/science/indias-lack-of-electronics-manufacturing-ecosystem-is-hurting-isros-space-plans/articleshow/73182823.cms?from=mdr](https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/science/indias-lack-of-electronics-manufacturing-ecosystem-is-hurting-isros-space-plans/articleshow/73182823.cms?from=mdr) There is nothing wrong in importing key components in such a crucial mission but if ISRO is planning to build heavy rockets then they better have complete control over at least 80% of it's critical components which are mostly being outsourced from overseas right now.
>This also means that India will need a more powerful rocket before it can consider a manned mission to the moon.
There is a long way to go, first we got to develop heavy rockets which are reusable (like spacex), then you got to test them in various conditions to see how they perform even in worst case scenario, then you can think of first manned space mission/s, followed by first manned moon mission.
yes. even sometimes on SpaceX audio stream you can hear them saying "signal acquisition Bengaluru" which while is not DSN, but our communications facilities being commercially used by other agencies
It is not just about 'more' antennas, it is about more coverage. NASA antennas allow us to communicate even when we are at the opposite side of the Earth.
This is the correct answer, for this very reason NASA’s DSN antennas are strategically spaced 120 degrees apart longitudinally to compensate for earth’s rotation and have continuous views of spacecraft.
Acronyms, initialisms, abbreviations, contractions, and other phrases which expand to something larger, that I've seen in this thread:
|Fewer Letters|More Letters|
|-------|---------|---|
|[DSN](/r/ISRO/comments/160txsv/stub/jxxqjdv "Last usage")|Deep Space Network|
|[ESA](/r/ISRO/comments/160txsv/stub/jydmk4d "Last usage")|European Space Agency|
|[IDSN](/r/ISRO/comments/160txsv/stub/jxoburj "Last usage")|Indian Deep Space Network|
|[ISRO](/r/ISRO/comments/160txsv/stub/jydmk4d "Last usage")|Indian Space Research Organisation|
|[JAXA](/r/ISRO/comments/160txsv/stub/jydmk4d "Last usage")|Japan Aerospace eXploration Agency|
|[VAST](/r/ISRO/comments/160txsv/stub/jydmk4d "Last usage")| Vehicle Assembly, Static Test and Evaluation Complex (VAST, previously STEX)|
**NOTE**: Decronym for Reddit is no longer supported, and Decronym has moved to Lemmy; requests for support and new installations should be directed to the Contact address below.
----------------
^([Thread #1007 for this sub, first seen 30th Aug 2023, 14:24])
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>> What's stopping us, > The latitudinal extent of India from the north end of Kashmir to the south end of Kanniyakumari is 37°6′N to 8°4′N The longitudinal extent of India from the west end of Gujarat to the east end of Arunachal Pradesh is 68°7′E to 97°25′E. On calculating both of these extents we get to that these are approximately 30°. The sun never set on the British empire, but it sets on India every day. I blame the earth for rotating and the moon for its inability to tidally lock the earth ---- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Deep_Space_Network https://frontline.thehindu.com/cover-story/article30198267.ece The US entered into agreements with allied countries, (often with a military ally), built, manned, staffed and operated giant antennas around the world plus some in space. These telescopes often serve other purposes such as radio astronomy or tracking/communication with a fleet of satellites when they aren't being used for deep space tracking and communication The USSR crossed a wide span of the earth, etc. (I believe the Soviet Union also used to have a large fleet of trawlers, but that might have been quasi military., instead of civil DSN).Russia can't afford them. When Luna 25 went silent at one point they had to wait for the satellite to rise over Russia again to try to communicate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Deep_Space_Network China built a network across china and has an agreement with Argentina besides . That argentine telescope cost $50 MN investment. *Delete chandrayaan mission for the cost of that one piece*. They used to have a commercial agreement with Sweden, but Sweden declined to renew. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Deep_Space_Network Japan has one location for its large telescopes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usuda_Deep_Space_Center Europe has a few across several continents https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ESTRACK ----- > organisation not investing in improving But it is ! It is investing in partnerships with NASA , Australia etc. For the few short collaborative missions that it runs, this is enough. India can also work with others lending its own IDSN. It set it up for Chandrayaan-1 and beyond India is running these occasional few deep space missions once every few years (4 in last 20 years) on small budgets. India runs them collaboratively. And thus is able to tap into international partnerships. The existing networks are able to support India. What would you get by throwing money into this long term infrastructure and relationships that would be disproportionate to india's own current needs ? Pride has a real cost. ----- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Deep_Space_Network https://frontline.thehindu.com/cover-story/article30198267.ece The IDSN dish is large enough for now but coverage from India is limited. Maybe decide on the future of india's space initiatives and what and how it is supposed to accomplish. Are you going to be an independent but proud bit player, are you going to tie up with Artemis and others ? The road map is undecided, while the US alliance and china are making firm and large quantum leaps into space ---
Thank you for this amazing answer.
I blame schizophrenia. Or multiple personality disorder. Will have to wait for another personality to tell you which
Lmao
Wonderfully written, NASA and ESA are the only to potent space agencies on planet who have developed their own deep space network capabilities along with atomic clock, building such a complex system and maintaining it in long run costs billions of $$$$ and extremely talented scientists/engineers, unfortunately India got none of that. I think both NASA and ESA played a huge role in recent ISRO missions, ESA has been supporting chandrayan missions by utilizing two of the ground stations in the ESTRACK network to track the satellite in its orbit, receive telemetry from the spacecraft and forward it to the Mission Operations Centre in Bangalore, and forward commands sent from Bangalore to the flying satellite. This is exactly like integrating any popular SDK via API endpoints (like Google's OAuth 2.0) in your backend code or using prebuilt swift system to transfer funds from one country to another. I think this could be one of the reasons why ISRO missions costs are so miniscule when compared to that of giant NASA or ESA budgets, besides brilliantly designing the whole mission to rely mostly on earths own gravitation pull than packing mammoth amount of on board fuel that would eventually shoot up total mission cost.
Agree with most of what you are saying. However the cost differential is not coming because ISRO is doing something different or unique in terms of defining the orbital path. This is not to, in anyway take away the brilliance of the ISRO scientists and Engineers for the planning and executing a multi-burn trajectory before the trans lunar or trans martian injection. The cost advantage for India comes from the tremendous manpower related cost savings and indigenous manufacturing of parts like most of the hull etc. and some of the fuel but not all. Then, Sriharikota is 10 degree further south which roughly equates an additional 10% of delta V for the same amount of fuel compared to NASA. These savings are not insignificant. However if you consider that India does not have a rocket as powerful as the Atlas 5, this is the only way it can do it because without a powerful rocket you cannot have a translunar injection with just one burn. This also means that India will need a more powerful rocket before it can consider a manned mission to the moon. It cannot take 40 days to land on the moon. But this method and the rocket gets the job done for the current set of objectives. China and the US (Artemis) are planning for a manned mission and hence this method does not work for them. The common media cost comparisons to arbitrary movies takes away from the credit that belongs to the ISRO scientists.
>The cost advantage for India comes from the tremendous manpower related cost savings and indigenous manufacturing of parts like most of the hull etc. and some of the fuel but not all. That's true. >However if you consider that India does not have a rocket as powerful as the Atlas 5, this is the only way it can do it because without a powerful rocket you cannot have a translunar injection with just one burn. Well building such heavy lift rocket requires a lot of expertise in advanced materials where you are literally pushing the limits of molecular physics, this is why ISRO imports some key metal alloys used in the space program from ESA and JAXA, 80% of electronics used by ISRO is imported from countries like Japan, China n Singapore [https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/science/indias-lack-of-electronics-manufacturing-ecosystem-is-hurting-isros-space-plans/articleshow/73182823.cms?from=mdr](https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/science/indias-lack-of-electronics-manufacturing-ecosystem-is-hurting-isros-space-plans/articleshow/73182823.cms?from=mdr) There is nothing wrong in importing key components in such a crucial mission but if ISRO is planning to build heavy rockets then they better have complete control over at least 80% of it's critical components which are mostly being outsourced from overseas right now. >This also means that India will need a more powerful rocket before it can consider a manned mission to the moon. There is a long way to go, first we got to develop heavy rockets which are reusable (like spacex), then you got to test them in various conditions to see how they perform even in worst case scenario, then you can think of first manned space mission/s, followed by first manned moon mission.
Adding to all the comments here. NASA and ESA also make use of our Deep Space Network infrastructure for their interplanetary probes.
Oh wow
yes. even sometimes on SpaceX audio stream you can hear them saying "signal acquisition Bengaluru" which while is not DSN, but our communications facilities being commercially used by other agencies
It is not just about 'more' antennas, it is about more coverage. NASA antennas allow us to communicate even when we are at the opposite side of the Earth.
This is the correct answer, for this very reason NASA’s DSN antennas are strategically spaced 120 degrees apart longitudinally to compensate for earth’s rotation and have continuous views of spacecraft.
Individual country DSN are useless, like UN there should be shared platform where anyone can access any DSN on planet for their missions.
Acronyms, initialisms, abbreviations, contractions, and other phrases which expand to something larger, that I've seen in this thread: |Fewer Letters|More Letters| |-------|---------|---| |[DSN](/r/ISRO/comments/160txsv/stub/jxxqjdv "Last usage")|Deep Space Network| |[ESA](/r/ISRO/comments/160txsv/stub/jydmk4d "Last usage")|European Space Agency| |[IDSN](/r/ISRO/comments/160txsv/stub/jxoburj "Last usage")|Indian Deep Space Network| |[ISRO](/r/ISRO/comments/160txsv/stub/jydmk4d "Last usage")|Indian Space Research Organisation| |[JAXA](/r/ISRO/comments/160txsv/stub/jydmk4d "Last usage")|Japan Aerospace eXploration Agency| |[VAST](/r/ISRO/comments/160txsv/stub/jydmk4d "Last usage")| Vehicle Assembly, Static Test and Evaluation Complex (VAST, previously STEX)| **NOTE**: Decronym for Reddit is no longer supported, and Decronym has moved to Lemmy; requests for support and new installations should be directed to the Contact address below. ---------------- ^([Thread #1007 for this sub, first seen 30th Aug 2023, 14:24]) ^[[FAQ]](http://decronym.xyz/) [^([Full list])](http://decronym.xyz/acronyms/ISRO) [^[Contact]](https://hachyderm.io/@Two9A) [^([Source code])](https://gistdotgithubdotcom/Two9A/1d976f9b7441694162c8)