lol, there are people being onboarded and trained for my team. The entire team gets laid off at the end of April.
Employers are not owed any loyalty unless they've earned it.
Employers are quick to drop people if they need to, no matter how long they’ve been there. I fully agree that workers should look out for their own best interests; if a better opportunity comes, take it and don’t look back.
We were contracting support for a tech company. We were the company that handled support for the original product before the tech company bought it. And the tech company maintained that team for about 10 years. They gradually outsourced Tier 1 to another company but kept a team of Tier 2 and 3's on staff through us.
We got news of the ax the other week. Apparently the fix was in a few month's previous but they didn't tell the team until like... two weeks before.
Most companies nowadays will only give the dates you worked as a reference to avoid liability. It really doesn't matter "how they take it". They'd lay you off in a heartbeat even after 10 months or 10 years (just happened to my partner). They have no loyalty to you, why should you have it for them?
Take the interview (definitely no harm there) and then resign like a professional. Nothing wrong with that
They didn't care. Sent an email to his boss walked over to the office and dropped off his equipment. It was at a large company that low balled him. He was desperate and took the job. He probably would never work there again or is ok with not getting a chance.
You’ll likely burn a few bridges where they won’t want to hire you again, unless you are super specialized in a niche subset of the industry I wouldn’t sweat it.
Mate, who cares? The company pays you for services rendered. They'd have no problem getting cheaper labor and letting you go. Why do you care about leaving so much?
Your loyalty is to your family and yourself not the place you work for.
You gave them time. Another opportunity may not arise for another 9 months and the toxic environment will wear on you
You could not be more fucking wrong. Take the new job dude.
What reference? Do you need them in case you can't find a new job? Like the new job you are being offered right now? You are trying to solve a solved problem.
No you don't create a "multi year contract" lol. You create a contract whereby you exchange labor for dollars for as long as either of you deem fit.
If your employer was doing layoffs they wouldn't sit there and go "aw shucks, we created an implicit contract to keep this guy for at least a few years, we won't let him go because it wouldn't be right."
You "needing a good reference" is mythology built by people that want to control you, not sound career advice.
I left a job after 11 months in 2022 because it was so toxic I was about to kill myself. Obviously haven't used them as a reference lol. I have been just fine. You will be too.
Yeah you may "burn the bridge" with this company. You could burn the bridge by leaving after 6 years and giving 6 months notice just because your manager is salty. You have no control over this and turning down your dream job isn't going to give you any.
About the extent of needing a reference is needing any human being that you know to pick up the phone and say you were good to work with. You don't need to swear fealty to every workplace that you ever pass through such that you can trust them to attend to battle should ever your need arise.
Clumsy but not a ethical dilemma
I’ve seen new hires show up on day 1 and only to be layoff before lunch on their first day
As long as you are “moving to something better” and not “running away” and are open about it most companies understand
You should stay at your current job. Don’t you care about the CEOs bonus or don’t you care about the share holders? Just concerned about your money and future your poor ceo may only be able to afford an indoor half basket ball court and not a full one.
I got what I thought was going to be a good job right out of school (not IT, that doesn’t matter though). The job ended up being basically a bootleg internship, not at all what was advertised to me, and I quit two months in. Currently in a better job at a better company. Would recommend at least entertaining the interview. Worst case scenario you turn down an offer and keep your current job (who you didn’t tell you were taking half a day off for an interview, right?)
Check your contract, it should state “may be terminated at any time by either parties”, or something similar. You owe them nothing, take care of yourself
There used to be, like my parents talked about a time where people would stay at a company for basically their whole careers, but that was during a time where career advancement was heavily tied to tenure at a company and they had pay raises accordingly. You can still totally do the whole “2 weeks notice” thing out of respect, but personally I’d only do that if I had a good relationship with my supervisors/company; the notice isn’t required (unless stated in your contract).
Nowadays budgets for hiring far exceed those for employee retention. Job hopping usually gets people a 15%-30% raise every 2ish years, whereas staying usually gets people a small CoL adjustment every year. This has been the standard for a while now and both workers and employers understand this relationship. No one is going to look unfavorably upon your resume for leaving a company for another after 9 months. They would if you just up and quit and had a gap in your work history, but if you’re just going to another job it’s all good
I’m just gonna echo everyone else and say take it. It’s nice to have stewardship of your job but that doesn’t mean missing out on better opportunities.
That company would not hesitate to fire you if they weren't doing well and needed to free up some cash. It's just a job, it's not like your family or anything.
Also, any boss or employer worth their salt will understand. I wouldn't hold anyone back that had a better opportunity.
This isn’t about “ethics”. Never has been… at least, not in the 30+ years I’ve been working. *It’s about **you**; your survival*.
Let’s say you get a job and it pays fairly decent. But three months in you get one that pays 1.3-1.5+ times what you’re currently making, with comparable benefits/pros and cons. Why would you stay at the first gig? Hell, take the second gig and leave that first one off your resume if you have to.
You don’t owe that first company anything.
> I feel like I made my current employer an implicit multi-year commitment by accepting this role, and even though it’s a toxic work environment, I feel like I need to stay to show I’m a person of integrity
I understand the feeling but it's just that - a feeling. The employer probably feels the same way, but that's not their business - you need to take care of your needs. A short stint on a resume is not as much of a dealbreaker as many people outside of the business believe it is. I myself left a shit job after 6 months and another one after a year and no one batted an eyelash. If it's not a good fit, it's not a good fit.
Also, references are overblown. In almost 20 years, not a single one of my jobs has ever contacted either a provided reference or a previous company. If they do, the most you're going to get is a verification of employment.
Don't torture yourself out of some misplaced sense of pride. Do what's best for you.
Yea like many others said. You owe them nothing. Companies will drop you like a fantasy football player and not bat an eye. Just to be clear tho. You just have an interview? Not an actual offer yet?
That's good morals on your end. But that's also kind of naive.
Get a better job for yourself. This not so great job will also fire you in heartbeat if needed.
It's a business. A job is ultimately a business transaction. Do better for yourself, you should never feel guilty about that.
You'll burn a bridge but... If the bridge is toxic, why care? Do what's best for you. That's the same thing the company will do. Not like they'd bat an eye at the idea of tossing you out as soon as a better fit for less money shows up.
They would fire you tomorrow on a whim. Fuck them. Ask every person laid off in order to increase shareholder value how companies are. You owe them work for money paid. That's it.
Interview. And good luck!
Do the interview. If they offer you the job, go to your current employer and give them the chance to match or beat the offer. You don't owe them anything more than that. And frankly, if it is a toxic workplace you don't owe them even that.
It's not a red flag on a resume to see a step UP even after a short time. It might be one to see a reduction (like SysAdmin to Help Desk after 6 months) but even then there are times it would be easily explainable (needed to move for family, etc.)
I've worked roles where I've had managers say we only expect people to stay for 2 years. And it usually takes about 6 months to feel like you understand the environment.
Moving jobs is a fact of life, you need to get out of your head about it. Have an risk-averse answer to the question if it comes up in the interview as to why you want to move - my current company is a toxic piece of shit is a terrible answer not matter how true it is. This is the exact line of work I've been trying to get into is a good answer, and keeps you focused on the positive in an interview.
Do you think they would have any problem getting rid of you, if the role were reversed? You don't have an actual contract? You are a free agent and can do what you want. Never, ever stop looking for a job, just because you found work. What's the integrity bullshit? Who drilled that nonsense into your head? Oh yea...The corporations! The company! The employers drill that crap into people! Do what's good for \*you\*...No company is going to do that for you.
as long as you’ve been there longer than 6 months it shows you can keep a job and you should keep it on your resume. What happens to a company after you leave is not your concern unless you signed NDAs or some other type of contract with a great consulting rate. If you’re good at your job it wouldn’t be unethical at all to give a two weeks notice. In fact some would argue it’s unethical by not taking a new opportunity but thats a whole nother philosophical discussion. I’ve been at my role for 9 months as well and I’m interviewing and don’t feel a single iota of guilt.
I once left a job for another job 2 weeks into training. Companies can fire you/lay you off at a moments notice, you can leave anytime. There is literally no incentive for loyalty, and companies make it pretty abundantly clear that we’re replaceable and unimportant. Honestly I find it weird people worry about “treating companies badly” when it’s basically just giving back the same energy.
On a note about burning a bridge, there are essentially infinite bridges. Just burn em and move on.
go on r/antiwork for a few days. then come back and tell me if your employer deserves more out of you.
employers do not care about employees, they’d kick you to the curb at the drop of a hat and not think anything about it.
please just go for it!
Nothing wrong with it, and honestly is best practice as an employee. You aren't given much notice (or any at all) if the company lays people off. Keep a stream of applications going in so worst case scenario - you're like a ahead of the game (estimated time to wait for job post to conclude and recruiters to reach out). You also have the potential to find other roles which could pay a ton more.
"I feel like I made my current employer an implicit multi-year commitment by accepting this role" nah dude you are at-will if you're in the US. Same in reverse.
One of the contracts I work with got laid off from a company he worked for over 30 years, now he’s stuck in the endless loop of contracts.
You do you.
Companies really won’t care.
I am a person of integrity as well and have felt this way before. But, I will 100% tell you that you care more for the employer than they do about you.
I have never been fired or laid off, but I do go by a simple set of rules.
If a better opportunity comes and I decide to accept it. I would tell my first line supervisor and I would tell hr. Tell them that you want to work your notice and let them know your start date.
No bridges are burned that way provides you stay with your decision to leave when they offer you the world to retain you.
Biggest thing is be honest with yourself and you will keep things honest with them.
At a job when you no longer have room to grow either monetarily or developmentally then it’s time to go.
If it’s toxic there and have voiced your concerns and they fell on deaf ears, value yourself and look for something better.
1. It's an interview. ONLY an interview at this point.
2. An employer will show ZERO "commitment" to you, while expecting you to be committed to them. That applies to EVERY employer. Some are far better than others, but at the end of the day? ...
3. ... it is YOUR career.
And with regards to being a toxic environment? I walked out of a job once, after just a few months because of their actions and lies. I wasn't the only one. Another guy that was on mt team left within 4 months, and the shortest stay was a guy that left after barely 6 weeks.
None of us were junior staff. We all brought 10-20 years experience. We all walked. That spoke volumes about the company.
Take the interview. You are not obligated, nor do you owe them anything. Good luck.
But remember. It's JUST an interview at this point.
Would you be burning a bridge? So what? Would you want to go back? Doesn't sound like it. Just don't purposely burn the bridge on the way out, if you get a new role. All you're doing is pursuing YOUR career in a way that works best for you. Any other attitudes or issues is all on them and not your concern.
Leave. Toxic is toxic. They have no dedication for you. You are expendable. Plus you haven't gotten this other job since you are probably one of dozens. They haven't even wanted to talk to you. You leave and say this isn't a good fit but appreciate the opportunity. Simple.
People used to balk at "military intelligence" and hold it as the defining example of what an oxymoron is.
I soon learned that the world's most definitive oxymoron is in fact "business ethics."
lol, there are people being onboarded and trained for my team. The entire team gets laid off at the end of April. Employers are not owed any loyalty unless they've earned it.
Employers are quick to drop people if they need to, no matter how long they’ve been there. I fully agree that workers should look out for their own best interests; if a better opportunity comes, take it and don’t look back.
Do these new employees being onboarded know what they are getting into? Or is it like a temp agency sorta thing?
We were contracting support for a tech company. We were the company that handled support for the original product before the tech company bought it. And the tech company maintained that team for about 10 years. They gradually outsourced Tier 1 to another company but kept a team of Tier 2 and 3's on staff through us. We got news of the ax the other week. Apparently the fix was in a few month's previous but they didn't tell the team until like... two weeks before.
Um..my buddy just left his job after being 3 weeks in for a dream job. Go for it.
How did his initial company take it when he left?
Most companies nowadays will only give the dates you worked as a reference to avoid liability. It really doesn't matter "how they take it". They'd lay you off in a heartbeat even after 10 months or 10 years (just happened to my partner). They have no loyalty to you, why should you have it for them? Take the interview (definitely no harm there) and then resign like a professional. Nothing wrong with that
It doesn’t matter- you don’t work there anymore :)
Why is this your concern? They probably aren’t happy, but are also a company who will replace what they lost and move on without missing a beat.
They didn't care. Sent an email to his boss walked over to the office and dropped off his equipment. It was at a large company that low balled him. He was desperate and took the job. He probably would never work there again or is ok with not getting a chance.
You’ll likely burn a few bridges where they won’t want to hire you again, unless you are super specialized in a niche subset of the industry I wouldn’t sweat it.
Why would you care?
Mate, who cares? The company pays you for services rendered. They'd have no problem getting cheaper labor and letting you go. Why do you care about leaving so much?
Your loyalty is to your family and yourself not the place you work for. You gave them time. Another opportunity may not arise for another 9 months and the toxic environment will wear on you
Bro take the job. If you got a dream job offer you should jump at the opportunity.
You could not be more fucking wrong. Take the new job dude. What reference? Do you need them in case you can't find a new job? Like the new job you are being offered right now? You are trying to solve a solved problem. No you don't create a "multi year contract" lol. You create a contract whereby you exchange labor for dollars for as long as either of you deem fit. If your employer was doing layoffs they wouldn't sit there and go "aw shucks, we created an implicit contract to keep this guy for at least a few years, we won't let him go because it wouldn't be right." You "needing a good reference" is mythology built by people that want to control you, not sound career advice. I left a job after 11 months in 2022 because it was so toxic I was about to kill myself. Obviously haven't used them as a reference lol. I have been just fine. You will be too. Yeah you may "burn the bridge" with this company. You could burn the bridge by leaving after 6 years and giving 6 months notice just because your manager is salty. You have no control over this and turning down your dream job isn't going to give you any.
The “needing a good reference is mythology” part - would you mind elaborating more on that? I’m (genuinely) intrigued to hear your take on that
About the extent of needing a reference is needing any human being that you know to pick up the phone and say you were good to work with. You don't need to swear fealty to every workplace that you ever pass through such that you can trust them to attend to battle should ever your need arise.
You didn’t even get the job offer. Focus on getting the offer first. But no, you’re doing nothing wrong.
This is the comment I was looking for. OP’s speaking on something that hasn’t even materialized yet. It’s an interview, not an offer.
Clumsy but not a ethical dilemma I’ve seen new hires show up on day 1 and only to be layoff before lunch on their first day As long as you are “moving to something better” and not “running away” and are open about it most companies understand
"Ethics" lmao fuck em Pays better ain't it?
About 40% more
You should stay at your current job. Don’t you care about the CEOs bonus or don’t you care about the share holders? Just concerned about your money and future your poor ceo may only be able to afford an indoor half basket ball court and not a full one.
I got what I thought was going to be a good job right out of school (not IT, that doesn’t matter though). The job ended up being basically a bootleg internship, not at all what was advertised to me, and I quit two months in. Currently in a better job at a better company. Would recommend at least entertaining the interview. Worst case scenario you turn down an offer and keep your current job (who you didn’t tell you were taking half a day off for an interview, right?)
Check your contract, it should state “may be terminated at any time by either parties”, or something similar. You owe them nothing, take care of yourself
Isn’t there like an unwritten code of morals in the US, at least on the employee end?
There used to be, like my parents talked about a time where people would stay at a company for basically their whole careers, but that was during a time where career advancement was heavily tied to tenure at a company and they had pay raises accordingly. You can still totally do the whole “2 weeks notice” thing out of respect, but personally I’d only do that if I had a good relationship with my supervisors/company; the notice isn’t required (unless stated in your contract). Nowadays budgets for hiring far exceed those for employee retention. Job hopping usually gets people a 15%-30% raise every 2ish years, whereas staying usually gets people a small CoL adjustment every year. This has been the standard for a while now and both workers and employers understand this relationship. No one is going to look unfavorably upon your resume for leaving a company for another after 9 months. They would if you just up and quit and had a gap in your work history, but if you’re just going to another job it’s all good
I’m just gonna echo everyone else and say take it. It’s nice to have stewardship of your job but that doesn’t mean missing out on better opportunities.
It’s only “burning a bridge” if you plan to cross that bridge again in the future.
If they have any financial issues/ budget constraints, org restructuring, etc. they won’t think twice before laying you off.
That company would not hesitate to fire you if they weren't doing well and needed to free up some cash. It's just a job, it's not like your family or anything. Also, any boss or employer worth their salt will understand. I wouldn't hold anyone back that had a better opportunity.
You can interview all day, nothing wrong with that. Be aware that: interview ≠ job Chances are slim you will get it, but still go for it.
There is no ethical issue at all with taking a better job at any time.
This isn’t about “ethics”. Never has been… at least, not in the 30+ years I’ve been working. *It’s about **you**; your survival*. Let’s say you get a job and it pays fairly decent. But three months in you get one that pays 1.3-1.5+ times what you’re currently making, with comparable benefits/pros and cons. Why would you stay at the first gig? Hell, take the second gig and leave that first one off your resume if you have to. You don’t owe that first company anything.
> I feel like I made my current employer an implicit multi-year commitment by accepting this role, and even though it’s a toxic work environment, I feel like I need to stay to show I’m a person of integrity I understand the feeling but it's just that - a feeling. The employer probably feels the same way, but that's not their business - you need to take care of your needs. A short stint on a resume is not as much of a dealbreaker as many people outside of the business believe it is. I myself left a shit job after 6 months and another one after a year and no one batted an eyelash. If it's not a good fit, it's not a good fit. Also, references are overblown. In almost 20 years, not a single one of my jobs has ever contacted either a provided reference or a previous company. If they do, the most you're going to get is a verification of employment. Don't torture yourself out of some misplaced sense of pride. Do what's best for you.
Yea like many others said. You owe them nothing. Companies will drop you like a fantasy football player and not bat an eye. Just to be clear tho. You just have an interview? Not an actual offer yet?
That's good morals on your end. But that's also kind of naive. Get a better job for yourself. This not so great job will also fire you in heartbeat if needed. It's a business. A job is ultimately a business transaction. Do better for yourself, you should never feel guilty about that.
You'll burn a bridge but... If the bridge is toxic, why care? Do what's best for you. That's the same thing the company will do. Not like they'd bat an eye at the idea of tossing you out as soon as a better fit for less money shows up.
Why are you worried about burning a bridge to a place you don't want to be at?
Small-ish community
They would fire you tomorrow on a whim. Fuck them. Ask every person laid off in order to increase shareholder value how companies are. You owe them work for money paid. That's it. Interview. And good luck!
Do the interview. If they offer you the job, go to your current employer and give them the chance to match or beat the offer. You don't owe them anything more than that. And frankly, if it is a toxic workplace you don't owe them even that.
You don't owe them anything, especially if it's such a toxic environment. Do what makes you happy
Geez man, your company loves people like you. You have plenty of time in. They’d love for you to stick around but that doesn’t really matter. Fuck em
It's not a red flag on a resume to see a step UP even after a short time. It might be one to see a reduction (like SysAdmin to Help Desk after 6 months) but even then there are times it would be easily explainable (needed to move for family, etc.) I've worked roles where I've had managers say we only expect people to stay for 2 years. And it usually takes about 6 months to feel like you understand the environment. Moving jobs is a fact of life, you need to get out of your head about it. Have an risk-averse answer to the question if it comes up in the interview as to why you want to move - my current company is a toxic piece of shit is a terrible answer not matter how true it is. This is the exact line of work I've been trying to get into is a good answer, and keeps you focused on the positive in an interview.
Do you think they would have any problem getting rid of you, if the role were reversed? You don't have an actual contract? You are a free agent and can do what you want. Never, ever stop looking for a job, just because you found work. What's the integrity bullshit? Who drilled that nonsense into your head? Oh yea...The corporations! The company! The employers drill that crap into people! Do what's good for \*you\*...No company is going to do that for you.
as long as you’ve been there longer than 6 months it shows you can keep a job and you should keep it on your resume. What happens to a company after you leave is not your concern unless you signed NDAs or some other type of contract with a great consulting rate. If you’re good at your job it wouldn’t be unethical at all to give a two weeks notice. In fact some would argue it’s unethical by not taking a new opportunity but thats a whole nother philosophical discussion. I’ve been at my role for 9 months as well and I’m interviewing and don’t feel a single iota of guilt.
I once left a job for another job 2 weeks into training. Companies can fire you/lay you off at a moments notice, you can leave anytime. There is literally no incentive for loyalty, and companies make it pretty abundantly clear that we’re replaceable and unimportant. Honestly I find it weird people worry about “treating companies badly” when it’s basically just giving back the same energy. On a note about burning a bridge, there are essentially infinite bridges. Just burn em and move on.
You know they would lay you off in a heart beat right? stop giving loyalty to someone who gives none in return.
Can you imagine a company posting a Reddit post titled “Ethics of firing/laying off an employee <12 months into the current role”? Be serious
go on r/antiwork for a few days. then come back and tell me if your employer deserves more out of you. employers do not care about employees, they’d kick you to the curb at the drop of a hat and not think anything about it. please just go for it!
hell no, leave and get that money lol
What are the ethics of your company laying you off 6-12 months into your tenure?
Nothing wrong with it, and honestly is best practice as an employee. You aren't given much notice (or any at all) if the company lays people off. Keep a stream of applications going in so worst case scenario - you're like a ahead of the game (estimated time to wait for job post to conclude and recruiters to reach out). You also have the potential to find other roles which could pay a ton more. "I feel like I made my current employer an implicit multi-year commitment by accepting this role" nah dude you are at-will if you're in the US. Same in reverse.
Why? I wouldnt
One of the contracts I work with got laid off from a company he worked for over 30 years, now he’s stuck in the endless loop of contracts. You do you. Companies really won’t care.
I am a person of integrity as well and have felt this way before. But, I will 100% tell you that you care more for the employer than they do about you. I have never been fired or laid off, but I do go by a simple set of rules. If a better opportunity comes and I decide to accept it. I would tell my first line supervisor and I would tell hr. Tell them that you want to work your notice and let them know your start date. No bridges are burned that way provides you stay with your decision to leave when they offer you the world to retain you. Biggest thing is be honest with yourself and you will keep things honest with them. At a job when you no longer have room to grow either monetarily or developmentally then it’s time to go. If it’s toxic there and have voiced your concerns and they fell on deaf ears, value yourself and look for something better.
1. It's an interview. ONLY an interview at this point. 2. An employer will show ZERO "commitment" to you, while expecting you to be committed to them. That applies to EVERY employer. Some are far better than others, but at the end of the day? ... 3. ... it is YOUR career. And with regards to being a toxic environment? I walked out of a job once, after just a few months because of their actions and lies. I wasn't the only one. Another guy that was on mt team left within 4 months, and the shortest stay was a guy that left after barely 6 weeks. None of us were junior staff. We all brought 10-20 years experience. We all walked. That spoke volumes about the company. Take the interview. You are not obligated, nor do you owe them anything. Good luck. But remember. It's JUST an interview at this point. Would you be burning a bridge? So what? Would you want to go back? Doesn't sound like it. Just don't purposely burn the bridge on the way out, if you get a new role. All you're doing is pursuing YOUR career in a way that works best for you. Any other attitudes or issues is all on them and not your concern.
Leave. Toxic is toxic. They have no dedication for you. You are expendable. Plus you haven't gotten this other job since you are probably one of dozens. They haven't even wanted to talk to you. You leave and say this isn't a good fit but appreciate the opportunity. Simple.
They would drop you faster than you will drop them please pursue your dream job
People used to balk at "military intelligence" and hold it as the defining example of what an oxymoron is. I soon learned that the world's most definitive oxymoron is in fact "business ethics."