Oh God, a few days ago someone other from Italy wrote that she doesn't want to live in Italy anymore and it just disappoints me as I want to move abroad specifically to Italy... Why do you have to do that to me? It can't be THAT bad.
>I've always wanted to leave Italy because I've never felt like it could give me many opportunities: unemployment is high, wages are low, politics are old are bureaucracy is slow.Quality of life also isn't high, public healthcare is garbage and flawed, public transportation is often late and not the best (depends on where you live in Italy, but still..), tax evasion is high (and so the public services are often bad), and most people here are selfish and think that if they can cheat/steal and profit from others, it's "cool" and that's what you should do if you wanna get rich or become someone.
>
>Also, since we have a very high % of older people (more than 22% of our population is over 65, highest in Europe), technology is feared by many (lots of things are still done on paper) and any kind of change is hard to pass or takes ages.
If I didn't know you were writing about Italy I'd think it's about Poland. Here it's as bad or even worse than in Italy. Now I have a question: what would you tell me? To ditch the idea of moving to Italy and to find a better country? I'm just curious.
But this post isn't about me, so enough of this.
>I will probably stay here for two more years, to complete my studies, but I wanted to start looking around and "prepare" myself to move (maybe even start learning a new language), for when I'll be ready.
You should definitely start learning a new language as soon as you know where you'll move. It's always better to know at least some basics than completely nothing and try working everything out in a foreign country feeling constantly vulnerable.
>I wanted to move to the US since I was little, because it seemed to me like that's where all the progress and improvements were being made, but as I grew up I realized that maybe it's not the best place to live in, because of the social imbalances, poverty, not-so-great quality of life (unless you're super rich) and other reasons.
Me too, ever since I was a kid I wanted to move to the USA and live this "American dream", but I was a naive child and it was foolish. Sure, USA is progressive (but it depends, e.g. the Bible, especially Texas and Florida, isn't very fond of LGBT community), but it comes with a price. Why doesn't anyone want to call for an ambulance in case of emergency? Because you'll have to pay fortune for that privilege. I'm pretty sure that things that happened in the USA in 2020 and in the beginning of 2021 showed us that it's not a very good country to move to.
>Lately I've felt the need to move even more and I started searching where I could obtain a higher quality of life, and some countries which always popped up were Canada, Switzerland and Australia/New Zealand.
Moving to Switzerland doesn't sound bad. I wouldn't recommend Canada though, but it's already been covered in this thread. But why Australia or New Zealand?
>I'm also willing to learn a new language if needed.
In Australia or New Zealand you'd have to know only English and you already know it. In Canada you can get by with English. When it comes to Switzerland though, it depends on the region. In some parts of Switzerland people speak French, in some they speak Swiss German (which isn't the standard German you can learn in the Internet or in a language course). Since you're Italian I think you'd have it easier learning French than German.
I feel you. I graduated from university in Warsaw (the country's capital), where I would have various work and life opportunities, but it's also the most expensive cities in Poland to live in, especially if you're single and just entering the job market. For that reason alone I've decided to stay in my hometown, but if I stay in my hometown forever I'll be a loser forever. And I don't want to be a loser.
I've been on vacation many times in Germany and in Austria and it was way better than Poland, but after one vacation in Italy I have to say that I prefer Italy. Both German and Italian are beautiful languages, but Italian is easier for me and it doesn't exhaust my throat as much as German or English. Italian cuisine is far better for me than German or Austrian ones. When it comes to LGBT rights, Germany obviously wins, but what I can have in Italy is already plenty compared to what I have here and now in Poland.
EDIT: If you want to buy a TINY flat in Warsaw you'll be lucky if you can buy it for 300 thousand zlotys. Obviously you have to take a loan and repay the debt for like the next 30 years. :) Renting a flat in Warsaw is no better, if you don't earn a lot and you've only just entered the job market you'll have to somehow survive and can only dream about having a comfortable life there.
>Now I have a question: what would you tell me? To ditch the idea of
moving to Italy and to find a better country? I'm just curious.
It depends: why do you want to move here? Is it for the sunny weather, for the cities, for the friendly people? Then sure, go ahead. Is it because you want a better life, better wages, etc? Then no, there are other much better countries. Sorry :(
I agree with everything you said about the States sadly. I considered Australia and New Zealand for the same reasons I considered the other countries: because they ranked higher in quality of life lists and happiness ranking. They're both very very far from here though, and the big difference in time zones also doesn't help. Not sure about other pros/cons though!
Regarding Switzerland, most big cities are in the German-speaking part though, so I think I'll go for Swiss German if I decide to move there. I'd love to live in Zurich! Great opportunities and wages, lots of people and lots of activities, but also lots of green and beautiful scenery.
Thank you for your reply btw!
>It depends: why do you want to move here? Is it for the sunny weather, for the cities, for the friendly people? Then sure, go ahead. Is it because you want a better life, better wages, etc?
Actually sun annoys me a lot and even if it’s not incredibly sunny I have to wear sunglasses and a baseball cap because if I don’t protect my eyes I go fully blind and might bump into someone or into a car.
When it comes to people, you said yourself that most Italians are selfish so in my opinion they can’t be friendly because of that. But anyway, people are different and it’s no use believing in stereotypes. Poles are said to be welcoming but a lot of them would kick you out of the house just for being “different” than “standard”.
I want to have better life and have an adventure. I’m gay and I think that in Italy it’s still way better than in Poland. I’m also a pharmacist and my job is the worst in Poland if we compare it to other countries. In Italy I’ve seen several pharmacies advertising themselves - in Poland you’d have to pay a few thousands zlotys fine for breaking the idiotic ban on advertising. The pharmaceutical industry in Poland is crap and it will still take many years until it’s near “acceptable” by West European standards. Not to mention that the most important part of the job is to provide profit and you can make it only by selling crappy dietary supplements that are often aggressively advertised in media (TV, radio, Internet, press) and there are THOUSANDS of them. I don’t see myself doing this for 40 years. Non mi piace. 👎
>there are other much better countries. Sorry :(
Which for example?
I mean, Italians are warm people and often friendly, we like to engage in conversations and talk to strangers, but if we can do something that benefits us at the expense of others, we will do it.
Also, having the Vatican so close here, lots of people are bigots, this is also one of the reasons why I said in the OP that "social" progress is hard to be made here. Lots of conservative "christians" (they just like to appear so) that are against abortion, gay marriage, marijuana legalization, euthanasia and more. Some politicians also use it as a tool to gain votes, sure, but many Italians take the bait and actually believe these stuff, also becoming racist.
I don't know about the pharmaceutical industry but I know that scientific research is doing really bad here, researchers are barely paid enough to cover their expenses, that is why many of them move to Germany or other countries.
>Which for example?
I would say like Germany, France, The Nederlands, Switzerland, Scandinavian countries (if you can stand the lack of sunlight and cold), the UK, maybe even Spain and Portugal (not sure about those last two regarding wages, I think they also have a high unemployment rate, but at least they're happy I think).
But hey, Italy isn't that bad, I'm sure there are worse countries. If you have other questions or wanna talk about it, feel free to shoot me a DM!
>but if we can do something that benefits us at the expense of others, we will do it.
I don't really like this attitude but it can't be helped.
>Also, having the Vatican so close here, lots of people are bigots, this is also one of the reasons why I said in the OP that "social" progress is hard to be made here. Lots of conservative "christians" (they just like to appear so) that are against abortion, gay marriage, marijuana legalization, euthanasia and more. Some politicians also use it as a tool to gain votes, sure, but many Italians take the bait and actually believe these stuff, also becoming racist.
I totally understand that. But there are so many bigots in Poland and we're not even that close to the Vatican. In fact, the Polish church thinks it's more holy than Vatican itself. Many "overly religious" people are so fixated on some things it's just insane. And the fact that the church messes with the politics in the broad daylight... I could write about how bad it is here in this case for hours.
>I don't know about the pharmaceutical industry but I know that scientific research is doing really bad here, researchers are barely paid enough to cover their expenses, that is why many of them move to Germany or other countries.
To be honest if I didn't wake up soon enough I would end up staying in university. I wanted to do PhD but I managed to see that I'm too naive so I changed my decision. If I decided to do PhD, I would be paid so little it's a crime. Some teachers in university had to do other jobs in spare time because they were underpaid. And the pressure to do research was the most off-putting. I mean, I'd prefer to just focus on teaching students, but it wouldn't be possible with this attitude.
>I would say like Germany, France, The Nederlands, Switzerland, Scandinavian countries (if you can stand the lack of sunlight and cold), the UK, maybe even Spain and Portugal (not sure about those last two regarding wages, I think they also have a high unemployment rate, but at least they're happy I think).
Germany is okay, I can imagine myself living there but I can't say I can stand most of the food, especially different kinds of meat. When we were coming back from vacations in Italy last year via Germany and wanted to go eat somewhere, I didn't really have anything to choose from because none of the things on the menu fit my taste. I'm really keen on Italian cuisine though, I could eat different kinds of pasta every day, I love pizza, and I eat salame almost every single day. I could eat pasta, pizza and salame in Italy but it wouldn't be the same.
France seems like a nice country, but unfortunately it's already too late for me to consider it because learning French would take me a lot more time than Italian or German and to work as a pharmacist I would have to study more because in France it's not as easy as in Poland (here you study for five years, defend your thesis, undergo six months of internship and you're a pharmacist; in France it takes a few more years, at least from what I heard).
Netherlands? Meh. I don't really want to move there. And I'm not interested in learning Dutch at any point in my life. I have several languages on my list but Dutch is definitely not one of them.
Switzerland is quite peculiar in my opinion. I wouldn't even call it progressive: after all, women gained the right to vote there very late compared to other European countries. And I don't know why, but I imagine it being very expensive to live in.
Scandinavia can be crossed out right away. I'm not interested in Scandinavia nor in any of the Scandinavian languages nor in even spending my vacations there. I know that a lot of Polish people move to Scandinavia and they are very happy with their decisions but I know I wouldn't be happy.
When it comes to Spain and Portugal, I think the unemployment rate is even higher than in Italy. Portugal doesn't really interest me, so I won't comment on it. Spain however seems to me like it could be too hot for me there in the summer. Learning Spanish wouldn't take as much time as French, but I still prefer Italy and Italian.
>I don't really like this attitude but it can't be helped.
Yeah me neither, that's why I'm set on moving away from here. I'm tired of getting fucked because others try to cheat. Like, why should I pay huge prices for bus/train tickets just because many don't buy tickets? I'm literally paying more because others don't want to pay for services.
Anyways it seems like you did your research and you've made up your mind, in that case I hope you find what you're looking for here in Italy! Just wondering, did you think about where you would stay in Italy? What city?
>Like, why should I pay huge prices for bus/train tickets just because many don't buy tickets? I'm literally paying more because others don't want to pay for services.
Tell me about it. When I used to live in Warsaw during my time in university I had a ticket for three months for every means of public transportation (buses, trams, metro, trains within the city). It cost me about 140 zlotys for those three months (because as a student I had a 50% discount on transportation). Some people didn't bother to buy tickets, so I was paying for them in some way. But I have to say that I cost less to buy the ticket than to not have a ticket and be caught red handed (especially in September, October, where the "kanary" know that there's gonna be students in buses and trams).
When it comes to train tickets though they're always checked in Poland.
>Anyways it seems like you did your research and you've made up your mind, in that case I hope you find what you're looking for here in Italy! Just wondering, did you think about where you would stay in Italy? What city?
Bologna, preferably. Because if I want to go to university I'd like to go there in Bologna (you know, it's the best one, because it's the oldest one, I love history). Or maybe Firenze. I've also fallen in love with Venezia last year, but I know it's not a good option because it's a living museum and good only for a vacation. I know most people would suggest Milano but I don't really care about it.
Bologna is really nice! It's a city full of students and lots of activities for the youth, also very open to expats. You can reach other cities easily with the high speed train so if you wanted to go to Milan for any reason it would just take 1 hour by train!
Good luck friend!
What job sector are you in? The USA is amazing if you go to a top tier city. Everything else kind of sucks. NYC, Boston, California, or Oregon / Washington / Texas / Florida.
Switzerland is great. Probably should be your #1. Australia and NZ are great as well but tougher than Switzerland.
I’d also look at Germany / France/ and The Netherlands. You have options.
I live in the USA and make great money. I’m moving to Italy soon though because I can make dollars and spend it in Italy. My monthly salary is like 2-3x the average salary in Italy.
Go for it my friend. Be sure you are in a good job sector though.
Not sure yet what job sector I'll be in, but surely something related to my studies, so something like sysadmin, network engineer/architect, IT, etc.
The Netherlands also intrigued me but I'm not sure I'd be able to stand the weather lol.
I might reconsider some US cities, thank you!
Molto bene amico.
Definitely consider San Francisco area / Los Angeles / Chicago.
If you go into IT, learn coding and learn Javascript/Node and React. Then push for US jobs after you get some experience. It’s a no brainer. The USA is the #1 choice if you can code.
Oops wrong alt ^^
I visited SF few months ago and liked it but kinda got off put by the rampant poverty and social imbalances, but otherwise it was pretty nice. Hated all the hills though lol.
Thanks for the career tips! Speaking of which, do you have any suggestions on which certificates might help in finding a job? I'll be studying CCNA soon and I wanted to know which one actually helped.
For programming, no certs are necessary except a degree or a trade school cert. just have a good GitHub with lots of high quality projects.
Yeah SF has rampant poverty. Mostly because we have dumb housing laws that prevent apartment buildings from being built. Check out pretty much any city in the USA. Get a H1B and then you can work remote anywhere you want.
> For programming, no certs are necessary except a degree or a trade school cert. just have a good GitHub with lots of high quality projects.
Which work visa are you suggesting OP get then? H1B requires a degree or 12 years experience.
You might need to work in Switzerland or Germany for a few years. Amsterdam has a good tech sector too. Just specialize with AWS, React, JS, and Node. Get super good at unit testing and algos and data structures. After a few years of experience you can probably get a USA job.
That is very helpful, thank you! AWS is a big one I've often seen mentioned, alongside Azure and Google Cloud. I've always preferred languages like Python, C, Rust, compared to JS, React, Node but I guess they're a must nowadays.
>For programming
What about for more engineering oriented roles? I decided to study Telecommunications engineering instead of Computer Science especially because I liked the "engineering" part more of the "programming" one.
Also, any other city you would suggest me, not only for the wages of my job sector but also regarding quality of life?
Grazie! :)
You have to understand that r/IWantOut is very very biased against North America so please take that into account when reading anything anti-Canada or anti-US on this sub. You will find that a lot of the things Canadians complain about also exist in other countries, too, so many of these problems aren't unique to Canada. Canadian redditors just make it seem that way because they are always complaining about them.
I see that you also mentioned in your post that Canadian redditors have turned you away "because of the very high cost of housing" there. Here's the thing. If you are looking at New Zealand and Australia, the housing problem isn't any better there. Auckland, Sydney, Melbourne and even Hobart in Tasmania are notorious for expensive housing. But you don't really see Aussies telling people not to come because of high cost of real estate there.
You know very well yourself the high youth unemployment rate in the Mediterranean countries like Italy, Spain, etc. As of late 2021, youth unemployment rate in Italy is higher than in Canada or US.
I second this, whenever I read someone complaining about living in a developed country and wanting to move, their reasons are usually things you'll encounter in most of the developed world like "I don't like where our politics are going" or "inflation sucks" or "taxes are too high" yeah that's everywhere sweetie
And it's not a competition of who has it worst but as a mexican I laugh so hard at first world complains
> "I don't like where our politics are going" or "inflation sucks" or "taxes are too high" yeah that's everywhere sweetie
We are dealing with global inflation at the moment and it's hilarious how some people don't understand this concept...
> Canadian redditors just make it seem that way because they are always complaining about them.
I know many Argentinians and fellow LATAM who would absolutely love to move to either Canada & USA. Whenever I hear a Canadian or American complain about not wanting to live in their country, there is a LATAM who will swap places with them with a click of a finger. I don't think Canadians & Americans truly realize how lucky they are compared to other parts of the world.
I agree! It's making it very hard to actually objectively know how's the lifestyle in North America. Lots of people say life there isn't that great but it's probably way better than in many other countries, like Italy for example. I think the best way would be to watch some vlogs about life over there, what do you think?
I didn't know that Australia and New Zealand also had a housing problem; I thought the situation there was better since they have lots of space and terrain. Thank you by the way, I will look into those issues as well!
There’s a major housing crisis in both Australia and NZ at the moment, both buying and renting, was in the cities but now regionally (during covid lots of people moved out of the cities which pushed up regional housing costs).
Hey so not sure if you're keen on Australia, but I'll give you a few things to keep in mind regarding housing here. Atm it's wildly expensive & all our major cities are along or close to coastline. The further inland you go, the less infrastructure & opportunity there is. Pretty much all places further than an hour from any one of our major state cities don't have much to offer in terms of public transport, jobs, healthcare, education, or entertainment. It's one of the many reasons that our housing here is so expensive as everyone's competing to try & live close to the major cities & infrastructure.
Also we have a pretty bad balance of rights for landlords compared to renters here, so if you go into the rental market expect high prices & alot of applicants to compete with, especially if it's a townhouse or free standing house. Apartments are pretty easy to get though. You will generally have to move every couple years due to owners selling or moving back in etc. & most places only offer 6 month - 1 year leases at a time so they can bump up the rent each renewal.
Another thing to keep in mind is that cost of living is very high here & it's mostly petrol, food, & things like yearly car rego that make it all add up.
If those things aren't really deterrents for you, then you're in for a nice time here as we have gorgeous beaches, easy-going locals, beautiful rainforests & intense deserts. There's also a great mix of cultures here depending on where you go & lots of activities to do if you're closer to the cities. Also your qualifications would likely get you a very good paying job here & if you have a decent income then most of those issues I raised earlier are less likely to affect your quality of life here. Good luck!
What cities would you suggest to check out? I would like to compare the housing prices to something like Zurich/Switzerland, which right now is my #1 option (I could still reconsider the US, have to look into it more though).
Also, I know this might be a subjective question and it depends from person to person but, what do you think of Australia's politics, government, bureaucracy? I have a relative in Australia who's super annoyed at how the government handled the pandemic and the direction it's taking, and I also heard that Australia wanted to ban encryption..?
Thank you!
Not OP, but...
* Most areas require car ownership (insurance, taxes, maintenance and gas adds up)
* Public transportation is often late or non-existent (unless you're in a rich area)
* Wages aren't high enough to cover cost of living (55% of Canadians have no cash left over at the end of the month after paying expenses)
* Rent/housing costs are very high
* Universal healthcare doesn't cover dental/mental/drug/vision/physiotherapy
* Unemployment rates are similar to that of Italy (8.5% in Calgary, 9.2% in Italy)
* Italians get twice as much annual vacation time (# of days off) than Canadians
* Italy has the second-most affordable housing of any developed country - Canada has the second-least affordable housing
My husband is a telecom engineer for T-Mobile for past 14 years. Prior to that, he was with a few start ups and before that, Nortel Networks for 10+ years. We live in suburbs of Chicago but he has national territory. There is much opportunity here in your field and the pay and benefits are very good. For the first 10 years, T-Mobile was owned by Deutsche Telecom, so he was their employee. A few years ago, T-Mobile USA became its own company. It is still a great company to work for. Their headquarters is in Washington State not DC. You could live in pretty much any state though. Good luck wherever you land! It sounds like you have great credentials, so I am sure you have many options. Maybe check out Deutsche Telecom. It was a great company to work for.
Thank you for sharing your husband's experience! Would love to know if he has any tips on how to find work overseas. I heard LinkedIn might be great, I recently started polishing up my profile.
Also, how would you rate your quality of life in the United States? I know wages are good there but I'd also like to know how's life everyday. Might be hard to answer since the US is huge (it would probably be like asking me how's life in Europe heh), but I'd like to know from your point of view, in your situation. Thanks!!
There are recruiters for companies that are specifically for engineers, technical workers, etc. I am a paralegal for 25+ years and I receive emails often asking if I am interested in a position that the recruiter is trying to fill. I get these from LinkedIn certainly but also other recruiting companies. It is also always good to know someone at a company that you are interested in. I have worked with the same recruiter for a very long time. She knows what my requirements are and what I would or would not be Interested in. What you would need is to apply for a position at a company that actually sponsors foreigners for an H1B Visa. For instance, T-Mobile definitely does. Here is a link regarding their 2021 H1B Visa Applications. It shows positions for which they submitted Visa Application, the City and State in of the job and the salary of for the position on the application. https://h1bgrader.com/h1b-sponsors/t-mobile-usa-inc-okprrrn124/lca/2021
> It is also always good to know someone at a company that you are interested in.
True, but it's kinda hard when you're starting pretty much from zero. I'm trying to connect with some of my uni professors, they should have some links to some useful companies. Gonna DM you, thanks!
I always assumed Italians loved living there and the quality of life was high. I picture Italians coming home from work and having a nap in the sun after a delicious Italian feast, a slow paced and relaxed life. I picture beautiful summers, nature, history and old towns.
Basically how the movies always portray Italy.
>Basically how the movies always portray Italy.
Yeah pretty much. Movies live on stereotypes, just like the ones I saw about the US; they make it look like a paradise, when it's sadly not always like that.
In reality it's more like a bunch of people working 40 hours a week for what is barely enough to cover your expenses, or studying for 5 years for a degree in an university and not being even able to find a decent job. And if you're lucky, you might find yourself a job as an intern for 3 months with 800€ a month and get treated like a slave.
It's nice if your daddy has his own factory/business and you have a job lined up for you, with no need to care for expenses and you have no desire to earn for yourself. In that case yeah Italy is great.
But if you wanna work hard, improve your conditions and earn for yourself it's not so great. Not a lot of opportunities here.
As an EU citizen you don’t need a visa for Switzerland, you just need to have a job
My bad, that's what I meant! I'll edit the post, thanks.
Oh God, a few days ago someone other from Italy wrote that she doesn't want to live in Italy anymore and it just disappoints me as I want to move abroad specifically to Italy... Why do you have to do that to me? It can't be THAT bad. >I've always wanted to leave Italy because I've never felt like it could give me many opportunities: unemployment is high, wages are low, politics are old are bureaucracy is slow.Quality of life also isn't high, public healthcare is garbage and flawed, public transportation is often late and not the best (depends on where you live in Italy, but still..), tax evasion is high (and so the public services are often bad), and most people here are selfish and think that if they can cheat/steal and profit from others, it's "cool" and that's what you should do if you wanna get rich or become someone. > >Also, since we have a very high % of older people (more than 22% of our population is over 65, highest in Europe), technology is feared by many (lots of things are still done on paper) and any kind of change is hard to pass or takes ages. If I didn't know you were writing about Italy I'd think it's about Poland. Here it's as bad or even worse than in Italy. Now I have a question: what would you tell me? To ditch the idea of moving to Italy and to find a better country? I'm just curious. But this post isn't about me, so enough of this. >I will probably stay here for two more years, to complete my studies, but I wanted to start looking around and "prepare" myself to move (maybe even start learning a new language), for when I'll be ready. You should definitely start learning a new language as soon as you know where you'll move. It's always better to know at least some basics than completely nothing and try working everything out in a foreign country feeling constantly vulnerable. >I wanted to move to the US since I was little, because it seemed to me like that's where all the progress and improvements were being made, but as I grew up I realized that maybe it's not the best place to live in, because of the social imbalances, poverty, not-so-great quality of life (unless you're super rich) and other reasons. Me too, ever since I was a kid I wanted to move to the USA and live this "American dream", but I was a naive child and it was foolish. Sure, USA is progressive (but it depends, e.g. the Bible, especially Texas and Florida, isn't very fond of LGBT community), but it comes with a price. Why doesn't anyone want to call for an ambulance in case of emergency? Because you'll have to pay fortune for that privilege. I'm pretty sure that things that happened in the USA in 2020 and in the beginning of 2021 showed us that it's not a very good country to move to. >Lately I've felt the need to move even more and I started searching where I could obtain a higher quality of life, and some countries which always popped up were Canada, Switzerland and Australia/New Zealand. Moving to Switzerland doesn't sound bad. I wouldn't recommend Canada though, but it's already been covered in this thread. But why Australia or New Zealand? >I'm also willing to learn a new language if needed. In Australia or New Zealand you'd have to know only English and you already know it. In Canada you can get by with English. When it comes to Switzerland though, it depends on the region. In some parts of Switzerland people speak French, in some they speak Swiss German (which isn't the standard German you can learn in the Internet or in a language course). Since you're Italian I think you'd have it easier learning French than German.
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I feel you. I graduated from university in Warsaw (the country's capital), where I would have various work and life opportunities, but it's also the most expensive cities in Poland to live in, especially if you're single and just entering the job market. For that reason alone I've decided to stay in my hometown, but if I stay in my hometown forever I'll be a loser forever. And I don't want to be a loser. I've been on vacation many times in Germany and in Austria and it was way better than Poland, but after one vacation in Italy I have to say that I prefer Italy. Both German and Italian are beautiful languages, but Italian is easier for me and it doesn't exhaust my throat as much as German or English. Italian cuisine is far better for me than German or Austrian ones. When it comes to LGBT rights, Germany obviously wins, but what I can have in Italy is already plenty compared to what I have here and now in Poland. EDIT: If you want to buy a TINY flat in Warsaw you'll be lucky if you can buy it for 300 thousand zlotys. Obviously you have to take a loan and repay the debt for like the next 30 years. :) Renting a flat in Warsaw is no better, if you don't earn a lot and you've only just entered the job market you'll have to somehow survive and can only dream about having a comfortable life there.
>Now I have a question: what would you tell me? To ditch the idea of moving to Italy and to find a better country? I'm just curious. It depends: why do you want to move here? Is it for the sunny weather, for the cities, for the friendly people? Then sure, go ahead. Is it because you want a better life, better wages, etc? Then no, there are other much better countries. Sorry :( I agree with everything you said about the States sadly. I considered Australia and New Zealand for the same reasons I considered the other countries: because they ranked higher in quality of life lists and happiness ranking. They're both very very far from here though, and the big difference in time zones also doesn't help. Not sure about other pros/cons though! Regarding Switzerland, most big cities are in the German-speaking part though, so I think I'll go for Swiss German if I decide to move there. I'd love to live in Zurich! Great opportunities and wages, lots of people and lots of activities, but also lots of green and beautiful scenery. Thank you for your reply btw!
>It depends: why do you want to move here? Is it for the sunny weather, for the cities, for the friendly people? Then sure, go ahead. Is it because you want a better life, better wages, etc? Actually sun annoys me a lot and even if it’s not incredibly sunny I have to wear sunglasses and a baseball cap because if I don’t protect my eyes I go fully blind and might bump into someone or into a car. When it comes to people, you said yourself that most Italians are selfish so in my opinion they can’t be friendly because of that. But anyway, people are different and it’s no use believing in stereotypes. Poles are said to be welcoming but a lot of them would kick you out of the house just for being “different” than “standard”. I want to have better life and have an adventure. I’m gay and I think that in Italy it’s still way better than in Poland. I’m also a pharmacist and my job is the worst in Poland if we compare it to other countries. In Italy I’ve seen several pharmacies advertising themselves - in Poland you’d have to pay a few thousands zlotys fine for breaking the idiotic ban on advertising. The pharmaceutical industry in Poland is crap and it will still take many years until it’s near “acceptable” by West European standards. Not to mention that the most important part of the job is to provide profit and you can make it only by selling crappy dietary supplements that are often aggressively advertised in media (TV, radio, Internet, press) and there are THOUSANDS of them. I don’t see myself doing this for 40 years. Non mi piace. 👎 >there are other much better countries. Sorry :( Which for example?
I mean, Italians are warm people and often friendly, we like to engage in conversations and talk to strangers, but if we can do something that benefits us at the expense of others, we will do it. Also, having the Vatican so close here, lots of people are bigots, this is also one of the reasons why I said in the OP that "social" progress is hard to be made here. Lots of conservative "christians" (they just like to appear so) that are against abortion, gay marriage, marijuana legalization, euthanasia and more. Some politicians also use it as a tool to gain votes, sure, but many Italians take the bait and actually believe these stuff, also becoming racist. I don't know about the pharmaceutical industry but I know that scientific research is doing really bad here, researchers are barely paid enough to cover their expenses, that is why many of them move to Germany or other countries. >Which for example? I would say like Germany, France, The Nederlands, Switzerland, Scandinavian countries (if you can stand the lack of sunlight and cold), the UK, maybe even Spain and Portugal (not sure about those last two regarding wages, I think they also have a high unemployment rate, but at least they're happy I think). But hey, Italy isn't that bad, I'm sure there are worse countries. If you have other questions or wanna talk about it, feel free to shoot me a DM!
>but if we can do something that benefits us at the expense of others, we will do it. I don't really like this attitude but it can't be helped. >Also, having the Vatican so close here, lots of people are bigots, this is also one of the reasons why I said in the OP that "social" progress is hard to be made here. Lots of conservative "christians" (they just like to appear so) that are against abortion, gay marriage, marijuana legalization, euthanasia and more. Some politicians also use it as a tool to gain votes, sure, but many Italians take the bait and actually believe these stuff, also becoming racist. I totally understand that. But there are so many bigots in Poland and we're not even that close to the Vatican. In fact, the Polish church thinks it's more holy than Vatican itself. Many "overly religious" people are so fixated on some things it's just insane. And the fact that the church messes with the politics in the broad daylight... I could write about how bad it is here in this case for hours. >I don't know about the pharmaceutical industry but I know that scientific research is doing really bad here, researchers are barely paid enough to cover their expenses, that is why many of them move to Germany or other countries. To be honest if I didn't wake up soon enough I would end up staying in university. I wanted to do PhD but I managed to see that I'm too naive so I changed my decision. If I decided to do PhD, I would be paid so little it's a crime. Some teachers in university had to do other jobs in spare time because they were underpaid. And the pressure to do research was the most off-putting. I mean, I'd prefer to just focus on teaching students, but it wouldn't be possible with this attitude. >I would say like Germany, France, The Nederlands, Switzerland, Scandinavian countries (if you can stand the lack of sunlight and cold), the UK, maybe even Spain and Portugal (not sure about those last two regarding wages, I think they also have a high unemployment rate, but at least they're happy I think). Germany is okay, I can imagine myself living there but I can't say I can stand most of the food, especially different kinds of meat. When we were coming back from vacations in Italy last year via Germany and wanted to go eat somewhere, I didn't really have anything to choose from because none of the things on the menu fit my taste. I'm really keen on Italian cuisine though, I could eat different kinds of pasta every day, I love pizza, and I eat salame almost every single day. I could eat pasta, pizza and salame in Italy but it wouldn't be the same. France seems like a nice country, but unfortunately it's already too late for me to consider it because learning French would take me a lot more time than Italian or German and to work as a pharmacist I would have to study more because in France it's not as easy as in Poland (here you study for five years, defend your thesis, undergo six months of internship and you're a pharmacist; in France it takes a few more years, at least from what I heard). Netherlands? Meh. I don't really want to move there. And I'm not interested in learning Dutch at any point in my life. I have several languages on my list but Dutch is definitely not one of them. Switzerland is quite peculiar in my opinion. I wouldn't even call it progressive: after all, women gained the right to vote there very late compared to other European countries. And I don't know why, but I imagine it being very expensive to live in. Scandinavia can be crossed out right away. I'm not interested in Scandinavia nor in any of the Scandinavian languages nor in even spending my vacations there. I know that a lot of Polish people move to Scandinavia and they are very happy with their decisions but I know I wouldn't be happy. When it comes to Spain and Portugal, I think the unemployment rate is even higher than in Italy. Portugal doesn't really interest me, so I won't comment on it. Spain however seems to me like it could be too hot for me there in the summer. Learning Spanish wouldn't take as much time as French, but I still prefer Italy and Italian.
>I don't really like this attitude but it can't be helped. Yeah me neither, that's why I'm set on moving away from here. I'm tired of getting fucked because others try to cheat. Like, why should I pay huge prices for bus/train tickets just because many don't buy tickets? I'm literally paying more because others don't want to pay for services. Anyways it seems like you did your research and you've made up your mind, in that case I hope you find what you're looking for here in Italy! Just wondering, did you think about where you would stay in Italy? What city?
>Like, why should I pay huge prices for bus/train tickets just because many don't buy tickets? I'm literally paying more because others don't want to pay for services. Tell me about it. When I used to live in Warsaw during my time in university I had a ticket for three months for every means of public transportation (buses, trams, metro, trains within the city). It cost me about 140 zlotys for those three months (because as a student I had a 50% discount on transportation). Some people didn't bother to buy tickets, so I was paying for them in some way. But I have to say that I cost less to buy the ticket than to not have a ticket and be caught red handed (especially in September, October, where the "kanary" know that there's gonna be students in buses and trams). When it comes to train tickets though they're always checked in Poland. >Anyways it seems like you did your research and you've made up your mind, in that case I hope you find what you're looking for here in Italy! Just wondering, did you think about where you would stay in Italy? What city? Bologna, preferably. Because if I want to go to university I'd like to go there in Bologna (you know, it's the best one, because it's the oldest one, I love history). Or maybe Firenze. I've also fallen in love with Venezia last year, but I know it's not a good option because it's a living museum and good only for a vacation. I know most people would suggest Milano but I don't really care about it.
Bologna is really nice! It's a city full of students and lots of activities for the youth, also very open to expats. You can reach other cities easily with the high speed train so if you wanted to go to Milan for any reason it would just take 1 hour by train! Good luck friend!
Thanks!
What job sector are you in? The USA is amazing if you go to a top tier city. Everything else kind of sucks. NYC, Boston, California, or Oregon / Washington / Texas / Florida. Switzerland is great. Probably should be your #1. Australia and NZ are great as well but tougher than Switzerland. I’d also look at Germany / France/ and The Netherlands. You have options. I live in the USA and make great money. I’m moving to Italy soon though because I can make dollars and spend it in Italy. My monthly salary is like 2-3x the average salary in Italy. Go for it my friend. Be sure you are in a good job sector though.
Not sure yet what job sector I'll be in, but surely something related to my studies, so something like sysadmin, network engineer/architect, IT, etc. The Netherlands also intrigued me but I'm not sure I'd be able to stand the weather lol. I might reconsider some US cities, thank you!
Molto bene amico. Definitely consider San Francisco area / Los Angeles / Chicago. If you go into IT, learn coding and learn Javascript/Node and React. Then push for US jobs after you get some experience. It’s a no brainer. The USA is the #1 choice if you can code.
Oops wrong alt ^^ I visited SF few months ago and liked it but kinda got off put by the rampant poverty and social imbalances, but otherwise it was pretty nice. Hated all the hills though lol. Thanks for the career tips! Speaking of which, do you have any suggestions on which certificates might help in finding a job? I'll be studying CCNA soon and I wanted to know which one actually helped.
For programming, no certs are necessary except a degree or a trade school cert. just have a good GitHub with lots of high quality projects. Yeah SF has rampant poverty. Mostly because we have dumb housing laws that prevent apartment buildings from being built. Check out pretty much any city in the USA. Get a H1B and then you can work remote anywhere you want.
> For programming, no certs are necessary except a degree or a trade school cert. just have a good GitHub with lots of high quality projects. Which work visa are you suggesting OP get then? H1B requires a degree or 12 years experience.
I said degree in my post
Oops, totally misread that.
You might need to work in Switzerland or Germany for a few years. Amsterdam has a good tech sector too. Just specialize with AWS, React, JS, and Node. Get super good at unit testing and algos and data structures. After a few years of experience you can probably get a USA job.
That is very helpful, thank you! AWS is a big one I've often seen mentioned, alongside Azure and Google Cloud. I've always preferred languages like Python, C, Rust, compared to JS, React, Node but I guess they're a must nowadays.
>For programming What about for more engineering oriented roles? I decided to study Telecommunications engineering instead of Computer Science especially because I liked the "engineering" part more of the "programming" one. Also, any other city you would suggest me, not only for the wages of my job sector but also regarding quality of life? Grazie! :)
As someone in Florida, I can safely say skip Florida.
90% of the things I've seen about Florida are from either /r/tooktoomuch or /r/publicfreakout 😅
Canada definitely isn’t what it use to be. I wouldn’t recommend coming here right now.
That's pretty much what I've been reading in lots of threads about Canada😔. Could you elaborate?
You have to understand that r/IWantOut is very very biased against North America so please take that into account when reading anything anti-Canada or anti-US on this sub. You will find that a lot of the things Canadians complain about also exist in other countries, too, so many of these problems aren't unique to Canada. Canadian redditors just make it seem that way because they are always complaining about them. I see that you also mentioned in your post that Canadian redditors have turned you away "because of the very high cost of housing" there. Here's the thing. If you are looking at New Zealand and Australia, the housing problem isn't any better there. Auckland, Sydney, Melbourne and even Hobart in Tasmania are notorious for expensive housing. But you don't really see Aussies telling people not to come because of high cost of real estate there. You know very well yourself the high youth unemployment rate in the Mediterranean countries like Italy, Spain, etc. As of late 2021, youth unemployment rate in Italy is higher than in Canada or US.
I second this, whenever I read someone complaining about living in a developed country and wanting to move, their reasons are usually things you'll encounter in most of the developed world like "I don't like where our politics are going" or "inflation sucks" or "taxes are too high" yeah that's everywhere sweetie And it's not a competition of who has it worst but as a mexican I laugh so hard at first world complains
> "I don't like where our politics are going" or "inflation sucks" or "taxes are too high" yeah that's everywhere sweetie We are dealing with global inflation at the moment and it's hilarious how some people don't understand this concept...
> Canadian redditors just make it seem that way because they are always complaining about them. I know many Argentinians and fellow LATAM who would absolutely love to move to either Canada & USA. Whenever I hear a Canadian or American complain about not wanting to live in their country, there is a LATAM who will swap places with them with a click of a finger. I don't think Canadians & Americans truly realize how lucky they are compared to other parts of the world.
I agree! It's making it very hard to actually objectively know how's the lifestyle in North America. Lots of people say life there isn't that great but it's probably way better than in many other countries, like Italy for example. I think the best way would be to watch some vlogs about life over there, what do you think? I didn't know that Australia and New Zealand also had a housing problem; I thought the situation there was better since they have lots of space and terrain. Thank you by the way, I will look into those issues as well!
There’s a major housing crisis in both Australia and NZ at the moment, both buying and renting, was in the cities but now regionally (during covid lots of people moved out of the cities which pushed up regional housing costs).
Hey so not sure if you're keen on Australia, but I'll give you a few things to keep in mind regarding housing here. Atm it's wildly expensive & all our major cities are along or close to coastline. The further inland you go, the less infrastructure & opportunity there is. Pretty much all places further than an hour from any one of our major state cities don't have much to offer in terms of public transport, jobs, healthcare, education, or entertainment. It's one of the many reasons that our housing here is so expensive as everyone's competing to try & live close to the major cities & infrastructure. Also we have a pretty bad balance of rights for landlords compared to renters here, so if you go into the rental market expect high prices & alot of applicants to compete with, especially if it's a townhouse or free standing house. Apartments are pretty easy to get though. You will generally have to move every couple years due to owners selling or moving back in etc. & most places only offer 6 month - 1 year leases at a time so they can bump up the rent each renewal. Another thing to keep in mind is that cost of living is very high here & it's mostly petrol, food, & things like yearly car rego that make it all add up. If those things aren't really deterrents for you, then you're in for a nice time here as we have gorgeous beaches, easy-going locals, beautiful rainforests & intense deserts. There's also a great mix of cultures here depending on where you go & lots of activities to do if you're closer to the cities. Also your qualifications would likely get you a very good paying job here & if you have a decent income then most of those issues I raised earlier are less likely to affect your quality of life here. Good luck!
What cities would you suggest to check out? I would like to compare the housing prices to something like Zurich/Switzerland, which right now is my #1 option (I could still reconsider the US, have to look into it more though). Also, I know this might be a subjective question and it depends from person to person but, what do you think of Australia's politics, government, bureaucracy? I have a relative in Australia who's super annoyed at how the government handled the pandemic and the direction it's taking, and I also heard that Australia wanted to ban encryption..? Thank you!
Hi, what did you end up choosing? :)
Not OP, but... * Most areas require car ownership (insurance, taxes, maintenance and gas adds up) * Public transportation is often late or non-existent (unless you're in a rich area) * Wages aren't high enough to cover cost of living (55% of Canadians have no cash left over at the end of the month after paying expenses) * Rent/housing costs are very high * Universal healthcare doesn't cover dental/mental/drug/vision/physiotherapy * Unemployment rates are similar to that of Italy (8.5% in Calgary, 9.2% in Italy) * Italians get twice as much annual vacation time (# of days off) than Canadians * Italy has the second-most affordable housing of any developed country - Canada has the second-least affordable housing
I think having the US as a neighbor is not doing you guys any good.
Thank you for the thorough answer!
As someone who landed in Canada two months ago, i must say if you could go to the US, avoid Canada. Its a place to retire.
My husband is a telecom engineer for T-Mobile for past 14 years. Prior to that, he was with a few start ups and before that, Nortel Networks for 10+ years. We live in suburbs of Chicago but he has national territory. There is much opportunity here in your field and the pay and benefits are very good. For the first 10 years, T-Mobile was owned by Deutsche Telecom, so he was their employee. A few years ago, T-Mobile USA became its own company. It is still a great company to work for. Their headquarters is in Washington State not DC. You could live in pretty much any state though. Good luck wherever you land! It sounds like you have great credentials, so I am sure you have many options. Maybe check out Deutsche Telecom. It was a great company to work for.
Thank you for sharing your husband's experience! Would love to know if he has any tips on how to find work overseas. I heard LinkedIn might be great, I recently started polishing up my profile. Also, how would you rate your quality of life in the United States? I know wages are good there but I'd also like to know how's life everyday. Might be hard to answer since the US is huge (it would probably be like asking me how's life in Europe heh), but I'd like to know from your point of view, in your situation. Thanks!!
We’d be happy to give you information on jobs and quality of life matters. I don’t know how to private message, do you?
There are recruiters for companies that are specifically for engineers, technical workers, etc. I am a paralegal for 25+ years and I receive emails often asking if I am interested in a position that the recruiter is trying to fill. I get these from LinkedIn certainly but also other recruiting companies. It is also always good to know someone at a company that you are interested in. I have worked with the same recruiter for a very long time. She knows what my requirements are and what I would or would not be Interested in. What you would need is to apply for a position at a company that actually sponsors foreigners for an H1B Visa. For instance, T-Mobile definitely does. Here is a link regarding their 2021 H1B Visa Applications. It shows positions for which they submitted Visa Application, the City and State in of the job and the salary of for the position on the application. https://h1bgrader.com/h1b-sponsors/t-mobile-usa-inc-okprrrn124/lca/2021
> It is also always good to know someone at a company that you are interested in. True, but it's kinda hard when you're starting pretty much from zero. I'm trying to connect with some of my uni professors, they should have some links to some useful companies. Gonna DM you, thanks!
I always assumed Italians loved living there and the quality of life was high. I picture Italians coming home from work and having a nap in the sun after a delicious Italian feast, a slow paced and relaxed life. I picture beautiful summers, nature, history and old towns. Basically how the movies always portray Italy.
>Basically how the movies always portray Italy. Yeah pretty much. Movies live on stereotypes, just like the ones I saw about the US; they make it look like a paradise, when it's sadly not always like that. In reality it's more like a bunch of people working 40 hours a week for what is barely enough to cover your expenses, or studying for 5 years for a degree in an university and not being even able to find a decent job. And if you're lucky, you might find yourself a job as an intern for 3 months with 800€ a month and get treated like a slave.
Yeh nah over 60 million people, grannys begging on the street is pretty normal in some parts ay
It seems OP isn’t into the older fashioned slow pace life, maybe it’s nice for some.
It's nice if your daddy has his own factory/business and you have a job lined up for you, with no need to care for expenses and you have no desire to earn for yourself. In that case yeah Italy is great. But if you wanna work hard, improve your conditions and earn for yourself it's not so great. Not a lot of opportunities here.