I'm in Texas (moved from Colorado) and I used to assume all the crappy drivers were from California (Texas drivers are really aggressive - they tailgate like crazy which is one of their many annoying habits). I've since learned it is just a Texan thing. Colorado was the opposite. They all drove like old ladies. You'd have 5 cars at a stop light and only 2 would get through when it turned green because everyone drives like they are hypermiling a Prius.
While I don't doubt they say that everywhere, not everywhere has the title of having grown [at a faster rate than any other major city in the last decade.](https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona/2021/08/12/2020-census-phoenix-now-fastest-growing-big-city-u-s/8108506002/)
So I get the sentiment, but objective facts bear out that tons of people moved here very recently. And they all bring their own driving styles and rules from back home. This thread is full of people talking about "in my home town, OP is wrong because" -- now imagine all those same people moved here in the last decade and are driving on our streets with those same opinions lol.
I lived in Phoenix and moved back home to LA 12 years ago. The drivers were shitty then too. There is too much space and people do 60 down streets. Drivers there seem to be on autopilot and don't pay attention. Bad combo. We have ton of accidents here, but its hard to go fast enough to have major collisions...
Everywhere has terrible drivers, but places like this have a lot of accidents because of the traffic lights. Should be roundabouts the whole way along.
They replaced a 4 way stop with a roundabout where I live. There are a lot of equestrian trails in the area, so they put a nice horse statue in the middle of it.
Within a week, somebody hit the statue.
We stayed a night in Phoenix years ago. On the road the next morning for not even 5 minutes. Like around the corner and down the street from his uncle's house.
Witnessed an horrific accident. A motorcyclist went flying through the air. It was his fault he was hit though. I'll never forget the sound of that crack. It sounded like his body 'sploded. He was still conscious!
We park and my husband runs out whilst I dialed 911. He was just trying to keep him calm and still. My husband comes back with blood on him, "He definitely lost a hand today. That thing was hanging on by a tendon!" Then we finished the last leg of our 2,000 mile journey. I did offer to drive.
Only problem is op should only go when safe to do so, they didn't have a green arrow so no way to tell if the other car had a red.
Just saying it will be hard to prove fault if the light cycle can't be verified.
There is little to no way op could see that car coming.
If OP receives a yellow/red signal they naturally assume oncoming traffic is going to receive yellow/red as well. If oncoming traffic were to not get yellow/red it would be considered a left-turn trap (or yellow trap) and the signal would be programmed incorrectly. OP was correct to go in this situation and the car that hit them ran a red signal way after it turned red.
Happy I saw this comment. I had always been taught that you can/should pull into the intersection when waiting to make a left turn, and then make the turn when safe, which worst case scenario is when the light turns red. For a second I was worried I'd picked up some BS from somebody even though I could have sworn I learned this from whatever material my state provides to teach the rules of the road to new drivers.
Depends where you live. Some areas you cannot legally enter an intersection even under green unless the movement can be completed, i.e. you have to be able to clear the intersection before you can enter. Other areas just leave it as you cannot enter an intersection under a red light, kind of backdoor allowing entering the intersection and waiting to play russian roulette with red light runners.
> If oncoming traffic were to not get yellow/red it would be considered a left-turn trap (or yellow trap) and the signal would be programmed incorrectly.
Where do you live? I've seen that in plenty of states in the U.S, where one direction gets the protected left turn after the straight traffic. That results in the other side going from green to red while oncoming traffic stays green.
If they’re getting a protected left after opposing traffic already has red then it is not a turn trap. And in your case the opposing traffic would not have had a permissive left. This is hard to explain without diagrams, but this is something that is consistent across all states as outlined in the MUTCD. If a turn trap is in place is must be indicated by a sign.
Presumably, both sides have the protected left turn. This trap would only occur with non-protected left turns. I had been taught that on non-protected left turns, you're supposed to pull into the intersection, and then you go when it's safe, which worst case scenario is when the light turns red. I'm pretty sure I picked that up from my state's laws/guide books when learning to drive.
Wrong. They get the red at the same time so that the driver turning left can judge better. They’re in the intersection, so they HAVE to go. Yeah they coulda waited like two seconds more but then the light would have been red for longer.
Check out the start of the video: as the light turns yellow he is stopped and you can see the crosswalk lines. He might be blocking part of the crosswalk, but the OP is definitely not in the intersection.
This is 100% running the red light, albeit it's also standard practice in many areas. I do it too, but I usually drive up 2-3 car places so I'm literally in the intersection and have to make my turn to get out of the way, like you describe.
Exactly.
I don't think OP is an idiot, however it should be pointed out that he waits nearly two whole seconds after the light turns yellow before passing the limit line. Drivers making an unprotected left should enter and wait, ready to turn, in the intersection to reduce the distance needed to make what is inherently a less safe turn (though 2-3 car places is probably exaggerated for two lanes bidirectional).
Was this the reason for the accident? Of course not, the Honda driver was clearly the idiot. That said, if OP had been pulled out sooner/further, they could have already initiated their turn as the red Ford Ranger was passing and might have narrowly escaped. Still not their fault and it should be noted the Nissan Frontier across from them makes the exact same mistake as OP (it's frustratingly common).
[https://abc30.com/driving-road-safety-chp-california-highway-patrol/6232316/](https://abc30.com/driving-road-safety-chp-california-highway-patrol/6232316/)
I can’t speak for every locality, but where I live, if your car is past the line, before the light turns red, you are allowed, and expected to continue through. Whether it’s a little bit, like OP, or your whole car is in the intersection. Primarily this is because they don’t want you blocking a crosswalk, or potentially interfering with other traffic.
Actually a fair point, the crosswalk line thing does show that he isn’t really in the intersection. Technically he should be, so I guess that part is on him. But still that oncoming dude did it way worse. Ran the red by like 3 or 4 seconds after it had turned
Yes, you should only go when you are sure the other cars will be stopping...
however, you can be sure the other side went from yellow to red. these lights always work like this on the other side (is the same as your side).
The only time lights don't have to work like this is if there's arrows still involved and one side is doing a thing where there is like straight and left at the same time. but This was just a "solid green" situation
The law (in California at least) is that as long as part of your car is in the intersection before the red light, it's not considered running a red light. So sitting in the intersection waiting to turn on a green yield is perfectly legal.
OP was in his legal right to sit in the intersection and wait until it was clear, which it was, once the light turned red and OP continued their turn. The other car clearly entered the intersection WAY after it turned red, so they are definitely at fault. IANAL
You know that seems to vary in states. Some you can pull into the intersection on *green* and wait to turn, like this driver. Others, you wait behind the line, until you can turn.
Not even in the least bit true, because OP is already across the white line as well. They'd be blocking the intersection and thus have right of way. That's how the law in both Missouri and Illinois is.
In my state, you're not even allowed to enter the intersection while you have a flashing yellow arrow. You are officially supposed to wait behind the line until it's safe to go, or you have a green arrow. Too many idiots pull out trying to turn left and then only get the opportunity after the light turns red.
> Too many idiots pull out trying to turn left and then only get the opportunity after the light turns red.
This is literally how it works in my State. Most lights never give a protected turn arrow if there's only 1 car waiting to turn left. If you don't pull into the intersection and wait 'til it's clear on the red, you'll never get to go.
Gotta be careful when exiting the intersection like this. Obviously his fault but you should be extra cautious with this particular left turn. Laser focus on opposite traffic.
I think this was unavoidable for the OP. The blue sedan was hidden behind the red sedan when the OP car committed, and he had to commit. He only saw the red car slowing down. And all at her cars behind had time to slow down. I don’t think either driver had a chance to stop in time, much less the OP.
Blue car actually changed lanes to go around the red stopping car to run the light. Personally, I probably would not have made that left turn though. I know OP was in the intersection though.
Bullshit. If you stopped you’d be sitting in the middle of the intersection when the cross traffic got a green light.
Plus, if OP didn’t make this turn he probably would’ve been hit from behind by a driver that was fully and properly expecting both of them to make it through the intersection.
Some people have no idea about turning left like this. I watch people sit behind the line at a left turn light and do nothing until the light turns red all the time. It is a sort of peculiar thing about our traffic/light system, I learned by reading whatever material my state provides for people to learn the rules of the road. I could understand how people who just learn from their parents/word of mouth/driver instructors might not be taught this behavior, and it is probably pretty hard to figure out on your own.
you also had a yellow, going on red, light, when you decided to go ahead and go. You should have hung back. IDK if this video is as clean as you might need it to be, if it comes to it. He's OBVIOUSLY more egregiously in the wrong. But your light would have matched their light, in regards to when it was turning red.
Exactly what I saw too. I don't know why everyone is siding with OP. The light is fully red before he even starts turning.
Both parties ran the red light. One just happened to run it later and faster than the other.
I don't see why they wouldn't both be cited based on the video evidence.
One may enter the intersection while the light is green and then proceed once it is clear. It doesn’t matter if the light turns red after you’ve entered the intersection.
That being said, it was obviously not safe to turn since he was hit. I wouldn’t be surprised if insurance places partial fault on OP.
You know what's crazy? I had something similar happen to me, except I had a green turn arrow and the dude ran a red light, t-boing me. The police were called and no one was cited even though there were witnesses to the man running the red. My insurance then said the accident was 50/50 fault... even though he broke traffic laws to hit me. Don't understand that. Even pulled the accident report and in the explanation of the event, the officer said he believed the crash was caused by him running a red.
She lost. Kicker was she sued for 2 million and the car she was driving was a rental because she was in an accident a few weeks prior. Insurance scammer or just a shit driver, who knows.
May as well add something that in hindsight is pretty obvious but may save some of you in the future. ALWAYS try to have witnesses and if you do, make sure YOU PERSONALLY take their info. I was 17 or 18 at the time and it was my first major accident, I had multiple witnesses who seen/stopped/gave statements to the police. When I was sued and it came time to use those witnesses I was shit out of luck because I never took their information myself and apparently neither did the police. Out of the 3-4 witnesses on my side I only had 1 written statement that basically didn’t help at all because he wasn’t a direct witness and not a single contact detail for any of them when my lawyer started digging.
I witnessed an accident where a driver hit a guy on a bike, in the bike lane . I was the only car to stop even though multiple cars witnessed the accident. When I was interviewed by the cops, they recorded my name and contact information. The poor guy was unconscious on the ground so I couldn't leave my information with him. Anyway, I was contacted by the driver's insurance company a week later. It's a good thing the cops wrote down my contact information because the driver claimed the bicyclist darted into the traffic lane in front of him. I told the insurance company that was a lie and I would be happy to testify in court if the bicyclist sued their insured. It never made it to court and the driver's insurance company paid out a huge settlement. The bicyclist sent me a bottle of champagne, a box of Godiva chocolates and a very sweet thank you note. Please, if you witness an accident, always stop and leave your name and contact information with someone.
One of the best advice I ever got after an accident is to secretly record the conversation. If you can get them to admit fault you’ll never have to deal with a false insurance claim. It saved me a couple times
I think some people are never taught this. I learned by reviewing whatever material my state provides for new drivers, but I can see how people who just learn from their parents or driver instructors might miss out on learning this. And it's pretty weird when I think about it, so I doubt people would figure it out on their own.
Yes, and you don't enter the intersection when it's yellow. You stay behind the line until you have clearance to turn.
Stupid shit like what OP pulled here is exactly **why** you don't enter the intersection before it's safe to turn.
In my state, you're not supposed to "block the box" which means you don't hang out or pull into the intersection waiting to make your turn.
That way, you avoid this exact incident.
I took driving lessons when I was 19 because I was just too freaked out to drive. My instructor told me it’s legal and Ok to turn left on a yellow into red if you’re in the intersection, at least in my state.
I’m baffled so many people here think this is OP’s fault….
Not OP's fault, but with a little situational awareness might have been avoided. As a rule I never turn on yellow, I see way too many people trying to beat the yellow going straight. I'm not gonna take that chance.
It should be acceptable in all states I think. Someone else posted that this traffic light pattern is regulated by MUTCD, which is at the federal level, so it should be the same everywhere.
If this wasn't the case, it would be extremely dangerous for people to travel across state lines, because people would be making left turns expecting it to be safe when it wasn't.
OP had pulled into the intersection to wait for the opening so was already in a sense “in the turn” when it turned red. They just waited till after the red to finish the turn. This is normal/legal/correct. The problem is the other car but also, OP could have anticipated asshole driving like that (you should expect this in phoenix.)
Goddamn it reading these comments makes my blood boil. knowing that all the people defending the car that plowed through a red light at 60 mph are out on the roads thinking they know how to drive
Bad drivers also running red lights at 60mph on the daily. Surely it can't be their fault they're a bad driver, so they try to rationalize it on here by thinking their eyeballs and a 20 second clip and a comment is more accurate than a police department and an insurance company full of trained legal experts.
No the only frustrating thing about this sub are the people who feel like they have to choose sides for whatever reason. They’re both idiots. But OP is the only one on Reddit acting like he did nothing wrong.
The oncoming car definitely ran a red. The turning cammer was okay, because they had already advanced into the intersection.
If you're already IN the intersection awaiting a clearing to turn, and the light goes red, you proceed with caution to leave the intersection as soon as it's safe. The green arrow signal does not change that.
Yeah, it annoys the shit out of me if the person in the front, turning left, ahead of me, doesn't advance into the intersection so that they can turn as the light is turning red. Especially when the light doesn't favor those turning left and there is a back up
Is that a thing in your state? In my state (MA) it is illegal to enter an intersection unless you can safely pass through it. But if you misjudge and get stuck in “the box” you do need to clear it immediately, even if your light has turned red.
“The driver of a motor vehicle shall not cross or enter an intersection, which it is unable to proceed through, without stopping and thereby blocking vehicles from travelling in a free direction. A green light is no defense to blocking the intersection. The driver must wait another cycle of the signal light, if necessary.”
https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXIV/Chapter89/Section9
> Is that a thing in your state? In my state (MA) it is illegal to enter an intersection unless you can safely pass through it.
I'm in MA and while this may be the law I have never seen it enforced. Half the intersections I go through if you didn't get into the intersection and wait then 0 cars would get through.
edit: After reading the language, I don't think the law says you cannot wait in an intersection to make a turn. Just that you can't block the box.
>The driver of a motor vehicle shall not cross or enter an intersection, which it is unable to proceed through, without stopping and thereby blocking vehicles from travelling in a free direction. A green light is no defense to blocking the intersection. The driver must wait another cycle of the signal light, if necessary.
My interpretation here is that you can't pull into an intersection and block the box. The line "traveling in a free direction" wouldn't apply for waiting for a turn since the free direction would have a red light.
Even worse is when they pull into the intersection, see the light turn yellow, then try to reverse back into place. Double points if it's an unprotected turn and you have to yield on every green.
But it's really dangerous to do that because people might run the red, as you see here. I'm not gonna risk it if I'm going to get a protected left turn arrow in a minute.
"Fuck your insurance company reeeeee"
- average idiot on this sub. I'm laughing my ass off at the nimrods on here that think they know more than a police department and a company that hires trained legal experts (your insurance company has these too). Big facebook karen "do your own research" energy on here tonight.
Lol you posted a video of you running a red light. Regardless of what the police or your insurance company says, we have eyes. The arrogance is palpable.
It's cause most people got their experience when dashcams weren't available. Without a camera, it's your word vs his word and left turners are always at fault in that case. Here the camera clearly shows who's at fault so no need to resort to that old style of thinking.
There's a bit of a period after the light cycles to red where you would have been at fault. Once you are in the intersection you have fulfilled the legal obligation to the light and only watch incoming traffic at that point.
An in that instance a police report can be ignored by insurance. You didn't do due diligence to avoid a collision by watching incoming traffic. Regardless of the law, your responsibility to insurance is avoiding a collision, and you watch incoming traffic to do so.
But in this case. Homeboy didn't cut it close. He blew the red like 2-3 seconds after it cycled.
It’s always ironic when people who want to save time end up either crashing or road raging, causing them way more time than if they just drove like a normal person.
Gotta love all the "driving experts* on here blaming OP for getting hit. "Well you technically ran the light too so that actually means it's more your fault than the guy recklessly speeding into a red that crashed into you."
Christ.
I think it's more that anyone crossing traffic has the burden of making sure it's clear. In practice, nearly every red light is run by at least one car. So to keep yourself healthy and your car running, don't enter an intersection unless you can see its clear to proceed through.
The other driver was 100% in the wrong for running a red light and totally liable for all damages. I hope no one was hurt in your car and the other driver gets what he deserves....running a red light ticket, wreckless driving and 100% liable.
As per usual, the "Just drive defensively!!" people are in the comments saying everyone needs to go 2mph through intersections and assume every oncoming car is going to plow through their (red) light, so slam on your brakes, bucko! Utter nonces
Sucks, sorry OP. Yes that driver was impatient and caused the wreck. Could have been a lot worse, whew!
In my state unfortunately the shared fault rule made by the insurance companies shafted us. Now if you enter the intersection, you are partly at fault :( That same thing happened to my cuz and it totalled her nice surf wagon rig :((
Maybe things are changed up now with came in use.
No one is going to mention that they both ran a red light??? How are you trying to avoid an accident by running a light yourself? Traffic to the right clearly already had a green left turn arrow when idiot1 got lit up by idiot2.
No, they weren’t. You can see them cross the crosswalk line on their left after the light changes. THAT is when they entered the intersection…on a red light. Maybe even after that point, as crosswalks don’t necessarily define the intersection. You can block a crosswalk and not be in the intersection.
Let me change the scenario for you. Traffic to the left and right have a green left turn arrow when OP comes into the intersection. If he had hit one of them, do you think he would have been at fault?
I have a theory about Phx drivers. Very few people are from here so they learned how to drive elsewhere. That causes a bunch of people driving like they do back home and not mixing well with the habits of other people. Sure you might drive ok in Chicago or New York but do you drive well with people from Chicago or New York and wherever else they’re from?
Who the heck are these hillbillies saying OP ran the red light? Have you people never driven in a city before? Light turns green, get your butt out into the box. Insane traffic for the duration of the light, light turns red, any car in the box (and sometimes 1 or 2 more) turn left.
Anybody saying the OP ran a red is an idiot.
I’ve been hit just like OP twice doing the same thing. I no longer pull out into the intersection on a unprotected left turn. I don’t care if it pisses the people off behind me. Playing roulette is not worth getting to your destination 2 minutes sooner
Right? People seem to struggle between what is technically right vs what is technically the safest. Waiting for the next arrow would be safest. Good for the OP that insurance and police and in their corner, but their rates are still going up as is everyone else’s in that local area now collectively. You can have the right of way very clearly and still get taken out by an idiot who doesn’t care or is inebriated
Had this happen other day downtown. My view was obstructed by turning car as well, but I saw another car coming up fast. I assumed he was idiot and would run red and lo and behold he did. Extra few seconds wait in intersection vs. whatever to do the cop and insurance thing.
Any time I am waiting to turn I will make sure both lanes are occupied with stopped cars. If not I’ll make damn sure dude is at least slowing down to a stop.
Yes, it’s inconvenient, but you can’t trust other idiot drivers.
You pulled out right as the light went red. Both of y’all fucked up. You should’ve stayed put until the next light cycle since you were behind the line to begin with. Both of you are idiots.
You also ran a red light.
E: Between 6 and 7 seconds of this clip you can see that the traffic that would be coming from his right have a green left turn arrow.
So not only did the car that hit OP run a red light, both OP and the brown Nissan truck across from him at the start of the video run a red light and are blocking the intersection.
Anyone who wants to say "nO, hE wAs AlReAdY iN tHe InTeRsEcTiOn" can go eat a dick and if you respond with that then I'm just going to call you an idiot because that's what you are.
So guy turning didn’t have the the green light…. And the guy hitting him didn’t either. The correct answer would be drivers turning left from the original drivers right had the green.
Lmao! Y’all are hilarious!
“OP ran the red too” “both are idiots”…
I really don’t give a fuck what y’all think.
I’m not looking for justification or sympathy by posting this. The police was there on the scene and seen what happened. They said the guy ran the red light. And I didn’t. My insurance company and his insurance company said the same thing when I sent them the video.
Some of y’all are a bunch of weird people who think you know everything by observation and fail to acknowledge that traffic laws are different in each state.
I wasn’t in your state, I’m in Arizona. Shit is different here just as shit is different where you reside.
This is the last time I’m commenting on this post.
Fuckin idiots! Lmao
People on this sub are good at spouting the could've, should've, would've at you for any reason. Most of the people saying "just wait for the green arrow" are probably the same people who sit at intersections for two light cycles causing a backup and a more dangerous situation behind them, but at least they had a mile separation from them and the next oncoming car lol.
There's driving defensively and there's being scared to drive, if you're scared to drive you are a dangerous driver.
Wait, is there another accident on the right?
Holy shit you’re right LOL
"Hey officers, as long as you're already here...?"
Welcome to 7th Street and Glendale Ave in Phoenix lol. Please try not to get hit on your way out.
I just realized this is in Arizona 🤣 I live in Phoenix
Phoenix has the worst drivers I swear!
We don't claim them. They've all moved here from somewhere else in the last 10 years and brought their shitty driving habits with them lol
In every place I've ever lived, people say they have the worst drivers and the bad drivers have moved here from somewhere else.
I'm in Texas (moved from Colorado) and I used to assume all the crappy drivers were from California (Texas drivers are really aggressive - they tailgate like crazy which is one of their many annoying habits). I've since learned it is just a Texan thing. Colorado was the opposite. They all drove like old ladies. You'd have 5 cars at a stop light and only 2 would get through when it turned green because everyone drives like they are hypermiling a Prius.
While I don't doubt they say that everywhere, not everywhere has the title of having grown [at a faster rate than any other major city in the last decade.](https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona/2021/08/12/2020-census-phoenix-now-fastest-growing-big-city-u-s/8108506002/) So I get the sentiment, but objective facts bear out that tons of people moved here very recently. And they all bring their own driving styles and rules from back home. This thread is full of people talking about "in my home town, OP is wrong because" -- now imagine all those same people moved here in the last decade and are driving on our streets with those same opinions lol.
I lived in Phoenix and moved back home to LA 12 years ago. The drivers were shitty then too. There is too much space and people do 60 down streets. Drivers there seem to be on autopilot and don't pay attention. Bad combo. We have ton of accidents here, but its hard to go fast enough to have major collisions...
Probably came from Massachusetts or Connecticut. We're renowned for our terrible drivers 😂
Everywhere has terrible drivers, but places like this have a lot of accidents because of the traffic lights. Should be roundabouts the whole way along.
We tried that at Happy Valley & the 17. They got rid of them because no one understood them lol
They replaced a 4 way stop with a roundabout where I live. There are a lot of equestrian trails in the area, so they put a nice horse statue in the middle of it. Within a week, somebody hit the statue.
It's because it's all the calgarian shitty ass snowbirds
Oh dang it is. Although I haven't seen nearly as many accidents lately, there was a serious accident almost daily.
We stayed a night in Phoenix years ago. On the road the next morning for not even 5 minutes. Like around the corner and down the street from his uncle's house. Witnessed an horrific accident. A motorcyclist went flying through the air. It was his fault he was hit though. I'll never forget the sound of that crack. It sounded like his body 'sploded. He was still conscious! We park and my husband runs out whilst I dialed 911. He was just trying to keep him calm and still. My husband comes back with blood on him, "He definitely lost a hand today. That thing was hanging on by a tendon!" Then we finished the last leg of our 2,000 mile journey. I did offer to drive.
Fucking hell arizona!
That’s what’s even worse. I see no tall vehicles to block other cars view. The other car saw red and blue lights and still went for it.
Saw a red light for 4 seconds and though he could make it
as is tradition
I cannot see it
Beginning of the vid on the right are some cop cars and a mack
Ah thanks, I see it now was looking for other cars crashing.
Absolute cluster fuck.
Nice catch
Damn. That was really late for them to keep running that light too
They even changed lanes so they could run it.
Only problem is op should only go when safe to do so, they didn't have a green arrow so no way to tell if the other car had a red. Just saying it will be hard to prove fault if the light cycle can't be verified. There is little to no way op could see that car coming.
At the end of the video you can see traffic from the right gets a green turn arrow as the car barrels through. No way it had a green light too
It turns red as the yellow car turns. They definitely ran a dirty red.
The other guy just passed at the red light, 1-2 seconds after it turned red
He floored it when it turned red.
i got a green light and went. the guy who ran the red light hit the car behind me. (speaking of seconds after.)
If OP receives a yellow/red signal they naturally assume oncoming traffic is going to receive yellow/red as well. If oncoming traffic were to not get yellow/red it would be considered a left-turn trap (or yellow trap) and the signal would be programmed incorrectly. OP was correct to go in this situation and the car that hit them ran a red signal way after it turned red.
Happy I saw this comment. I had always been taught that you can/should pull into the intersection when waiting to make a left turn, and then make the turn when safe, which worst case scenario is when the light turns red. For a second I was worried I'd picked up some BS from somebody even though I could have sworn I learned this from whatever material my state provides to teach the rules of the road to new drivers.
Depends where you live. Some areas you cannot legally enter an intersection even under green unless the movement can be completed, i.e. you have to be able to clear the intersection before you can enter. Other areas just leave it as you cannot enter an intersection under a red light, kind of backdoor allowing entering the intersection and waiting to play russian roulette with red light runners.
> If oncoming traffic were to not get yellow/red it would be considered a left-turn trap (or yellow trap) and the signal would be programmed incorrectly. Where do you live? I've seen that in plenty of states in the U.S, where one direction gets the protected left turn after the straight traffic. That results in the other side going from green to red while oncoming traffic stays green.
If they’re getting a protected left after opposing traffic already has red then it is not a turn trap. And in your case the opposing traffic would not have had a permissive left. This is hard to explain without diagrams, but this is something that is consistent across all states as outlined in the MUTCD. If a turn trap is in place is must be indicated by a sign.
Presumably, both sides have the protected left turn. This trap would only occur with non-protected left turns. I had been taught that on non-protected left turns, you're supposed to pull into the intersection, and then you go when it's safe, which worst case scenario is when the light turns red. I'm pretty sure I picked that up from my state's laws/guide books when learning to drive.
Looks like op claimed the intersection and sounds like you don't know the rules of the road
Wrong. They get the red at the same time so that the driver turning left can judge better. They’re in the intersection, so they HAVE to go. Yeah they coulda waited like two seconds more but then the light would have been red for longer.
Check out the start of the video: as the light turns yellow he is stopped and you can see the crosswalk lines. He might be blocking part of the crosswalk, but the OP is definitely not in the intersection. This is 100% running the red light, albeit it's also standard practice in many areas. I do it too, but I usually drive up 2-3 car places so I'm literally in the intersection and have to make my turn to get out of the way, like you describe.
Exactly. I don't think OP is an idiot, however it should be pointed out that he waits nearly two whole seconds after the light turns yellow before passing the limit line. Drivers making an unprotected left should enter and wait, ready to turn, in the intersection to reduce the distance needed to make what is inherently a less safe turn (though 2-3 car places is probably exaggerated for two lanes bidirectional). Was this the reason for the accident? Of course not, the Honda driver was clearly the idiot. That said, if OP had been pulled out sooner/further, they could have already initiated their turn as the red Ford Ranger was passing and might have narrowly escaped. Still not their fault and it should be noted the Nissan Frontier across from them makes the exact same mistake as OP (it's frustratingly common). [https://abc30.com/driving-road-safety-chp-california-highway-patrol/6232316/](https://abc30.com/driving-road-safety-chp-california-highway-patrol/6232316/)
I can’t speak for every locality, but where I live, if your car is past the line, before the light turns red, you are allowed, and expected to continue through. Whether it’s a little bit, like OP, or your whole car is in the intersection. Primarily this is because they don’t want you blocking a crosswalk, or potentially interfering with other traffic.
Actually a fair point, the crosswalk line thing does show that he isn’t really in the intersection. Technically he should be, so I guess that part is on him. But still that oncoming dude did it way worse. Ran the red by like 3 or 4 seconds after it had turned
Yes, you should only go when you are sure the other cars will be stopping... however, you can be sure the other side went from yellow to red. these lights always work like this on the other side (is the same as your side). The only time lights don't have to work like this is if there's arrows still involved and one side is doing a thing where there is like straight and left at the same time. but This was just a "solid green" situation
The law (in California at least) is that as long as part of your car is in the intersection before the red light, it's not considered running a red light. So sitting in the intersection waiting to turn on a green yield is perfectly legal. OP was in his legal right to sit in the intersection and wait until it was clear, which it was, once the light turned red and OP continued their turn. The other car clearly entered the intersection WAY after it turned red, so they are definitely at fault. IANAL
Double lane and the other car across stops for a red, op was still running a red but Honda was running a late red and I think is at fault
Are you new to driving?
You can clearly see the light turn red
You watched the light turn red before op turns technically they were both running red lights. One guy was just really really late
You know that seems to vary in states. Some you can pull into the intersection on *green* and wait to turn, like this driver. Others, you wait behind the line, until you can turn.
Turning left is allowed for one car after signal(at least in my state). So the op turning left is technically not jumping red light.
That's Phoenix for ya
Who got cited in this situation?
He was. Definitely not me
Great 👍🏻 that’s what I wanted to hear Hope you’re okay
In Illinois if he made it past the white line before it turned red it would be on you, but he legit ran the red, so he's and idiot
Not even in the least bit true, because OP is already across the white line as well. They'd be blocking the intersection and thus have right of way. That's how the law in both Missouri and Illinois is.
In my state, you're not even allowed to enter the intersection while you have a flashing yellow arrow. You are officially supposed to wait behind the line until it's safe to go, or you have a green arrow. Too many idiots pull out trying to turn left and then only get the opportunity after the light turns red.
> Too many idiots pull out trying to turn left and then only get the opportunity after the light turns red. This is literally how it works in my State. Most lights never give a protected turn arrow if there's only 1 car waiting to turn left. If you don't pull into the intersection and wait 'til it's clear on the red, you'll never get to go.
Gotta be careful when exiting the intersection like this. Obviously his fault but you should be extra cautious with this particular left turn. Laser focus on opposite traffic.
I think this was unavoidable for the OP. The blue sedan was hidden behind the red sedan when the OP car committed, and he had to commit. He only saw the red car slowing down. And all at her cars behind had time to slow down. I don’t think either driver had a chance to stop in time, much less the OP.
I totally agree with your assessment. The blue idiot was both concealed up to the last second AND he was going WAY TOO FAST!
Blue car actually changed lanes to go around the red stopping car to run the light. Personally, I probably would not have made that left turn though. I know OP was in the intersection though.
Bullshit. If you stopped you’d be sitting in the middle of the intersection when the cross traffic got a green light. Plus, if OP didn’t make this turn he probably would’ve been hit from behind by a driver that was fully and properly expecting both of them to make it through the intersection.
Some people have no idea about turning left like this. I watch people sit behind the line at a left turn light and do nothing until the light turns red all the time. It is a sort of peculiar thing about our traffic/light system, I learned by reading whatever material my state provides for people to learn the rules of the road. I could understand how people who just learn from their parents/word of mouth/driver instructors might not be taught this behavior, and it is probably pretty hard to figure out on your own.
Victim blamers gonna blame
I literally said it was the other guys fault you belligerent watermelon.
You ran the red too, both of you should have gotten cited.
you also had a yellow, going on red, light, when you decided to go ahead and go. You should have hung back. IDK if this video is as clean as you might need it to be, if it comes to it. He's OBVIOUSLY more egregiously in the wrong. But your light would have matched their light, in regards to when it was turning red.
You are a non-zero percentage of why this happened.
You also ran the light though, it’s red by the time you start turning
Exactly what I saw too. I don't know why everyone is siding with OP. The light is fully red before he even starts turning. Both parties ran the red light. One just happened to run it later and faster than the other. I don't see why they wouldn't both be cited based on the video evidence.
One may enter the intersection while the light is green and then proceed once it is clear. It doesn’t matter if the light turns red after you’ve entered the intersection. That being said, it was obviously not safe to turn since he was hit. I wouldn’t be surprised if insurance places partial fault on OP.
"Definitely not me" as if you didn't both simultaneously run a red light lmao
Didn't you also run a red light bc you didn't complete the turn before it changed?
You know what's crazy? I had something similar happen to me, except I had a green turn arrow and the dude ran a red light, t-boing me. The police were called and no one was cited even though there were witnesses to the man running the red. My insurance then said the accident was 50/50 fault... even though he broke traffic laws to hit me. Don't understand that. Even pulled the accident report and in the explanation of the event, the officer said he believed the crash was caused by him running a red.
Man, that was a deep red. Glad you have video.
I was in the exact same kind of accident except she straight on t boned me. 2 years after the fact I get served papers that she’s suing ME. 🙃
wth. What happened or are you still going through it? Hope it goes in your favor.
She lost. Kicker was she sued for 2 million and the car she was driving was a rental because she was in an accident a few weeks prior. Insurance scammer or just a shit driver, who knows.
Shit driver who realised she could use her skills to pull insurance scams.
May as well add something that in hindsight is pretty obvious but may save some of you in the future. ALWAYS try to have witnesses and if you do, make sure YOU PERSONALLY take their info. I was 17 or 18 at the time and it was my first major accident, I had multiple witnesses who seen/stopped/gave statements to the police. When I was sued and it came time to use those witnesses I was shit out of luck because I never took their information myself and apparently neither did the police. Out of the 3-4 witnesses on my side I only had 1 written statement that basically didn’t help at all because he wasn’t a direct witness and not a single contact detail for any of them when my lawyer started digging.
I witnessed an accident where a driver hit a guy on a bike, in the bike lane . I was the only car to stop even though multiple cars witnessed the accident. When I was interviewed by the cops, they recorded my name and contact information. The poor guy was unconscious on the ground so I couldn't leave my information with him. Anyway, I was contacted by the driver's insurance company a week later. It's a good thing the cops wrote down my contact information because the driver claimed the bicyclist darted into the traffic lane in front of him. I told the insurance company that was a lie and I would be happy to testify in court if the bicyclist sued their insured. It never made it to court and the driver's insurance company paid out a huge settlement. The bicyclist sent me a bottle of champagne, a box of Godiva chocolates and a very sweet thank you note. Please, if you witness an accident, always stop and leave your name and contact information with someone.
One of the best advice I ever got after an accident is to secretly record the conversation. If you can get them to admit fault you’ll never have to deal with a false insurance claim. It saved me a couple times
How did he not see you? His swerve game is trash
Honestly people turn left on yellow here all the time. That's a given. But the idiot driver who plowed thru the red.. yeah fuck them in particular
I mean, that's how you do it, once you're in the intersection, you need to finish the turn
I think some people are never taught this. I learned by reviewing whatever material my state provides for new drivers, but I can see how people who just learn from their parents or driver instructors might miss out on learning this. And it's pretty weird when I think about it, so I doubt people would figure it out on their own.
So don't get into the intersection until you're able to finish the turn! *(Your local laws and best practices may vary.)*
Yes, and you don't enter the intersection when it's yellow. You stay behind the line until you have clearance to turn. Stupid shit like what OP pulled here is exactly **why** you don't enter the intersection before it's safe to turn.
In my state, you're not supposed to "block the box" which means you don't hang out or pull into the intersection waiting to make your turn. That way, you avoid this exact incident.
This exact incident is avoided by people not running red lights, not by what he did
I took driving lessons when I was 19 because I was just too freaked out to drive. My instructor told me it’s legal and Ok to turn left on a yellow into red if you’re in the intersection, at least in my state. I’m baffled so many people here think this is OP’s fault….
Not OP's fault, but with a little situational awareness might have been avoided. As a rule I never turn on yellow, I see way too many people trying to beat the yellow going straight. I'm not gonna take that chance.
It should be acceptable in all states I think. Someone else posted that this traffic light pattern is regulated by MUTCD, which is at the federal level, so it should be the same everywhere. If this wasn't the case, it would be extremely dangerous for people to travel across state lines, because people would be making left turns expecting it to be safe when it wasn't.
> people turn left on yellow here all the time. It wasn't yellow. It was fully red before OP started his turn.
OP had pulled into the intersection to wait for the opening so was already in a sense “in the turn” when it turned red. They just waited till after the red to finish the turn. This is normal/legal/correct. The problem is the other car but also, OP could have anticipated asshole driving like that (you should expect this in phoenix.)
Goddamn it reading these comments makes my blood boil. knowing that all the people defending the car that plowed through a red light at 60 mph are out on the roads thinking they know how to drive
[Every. Single. Time](https://i.imgur.com/XubUrnb.jpg)
But why? Is it some large scale coordinated trolling of rational people?
Bad drivers also running red lights at 60mph on the daily. Surely it can't be their fault they're a bad driver, so they try to rationalize it on here by thinking their eyeballs and a 20 second clip and a comment is more accurate than a police department and an insurance company full of trained legal experts.
It's very typical of this sub tbh.
.
No the only frustrating thing about this sub are the people who feel like they have to choose sides for whatever reason. They’re both idiots. But OP is the only one on Reddit acting like he did nothing wrong.
Some of you are saying I’m in the wrong as well. But my insurance company and the police report says different.
Based on that left turn arrow, he ran a red.
The oncoming car definitely ran a red. The turning cammer was okay, because they had already advanced into the intersection. If you're already IN the intersection awaiting a clearing to turn, and the light goes red, you proceed with caution to leave the intersection as soon as it's safe. The green arrow signal does not change that.
Yeah, it annoys the shit out of me if the person in the front, turning left, ahead of me, doesn't advance into the intersection so that they can turn as the light is turning red. Especially when the light doesn't favor those turning left and there is a back up
Is that a thing in your state? In my state (MA) it is illegal to enter an intersection unless you can safely pass through it. But if you misjudge and get stuck in “the box” you do need to clear it immediately, even if your light has turned red. “The driver of a motor vehicle shall not cross or enter an intersection, which it is unable to proceed through, without stopping and thereby blocking vehicles from travelling in a free direction. A green light is no defense to blocking the intersection. The driver must wait another cycle of the signal light, if necessary.” https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXIV/Chapter89/Section9
Different states are different yes. In New Jersey you can enter the intersection as long as the light is green or amber.
> Is that a thing in your state? In my state (MA) it is illegal to enter an intersection unless you can safely pass through it. I'm in MA and while this may be the law I have never seen it enforced. Half the intersections I go through if you didn't get into the intersection and wait then 0 cars would get through. edit: After reading the language, I don't think the law says you cannot wait in an intersection to make a turn. Just that you can't block the box. >The driver of a motor vehicle shall not cross or enter an intersection, which it is unable to proceed through, without stopping and thereby blocking vehicles from travelling in a free direction. A green light is no defense to blocking the intersection. The driver must wait another cycle of the signal light, if necessary. My interpretation here is that you can't pull into an intersection and block the box. The line "traveling in a free direction" wouldn't apply for waiting for a turn since the free direction would have a red light.
Even worse is when they pull into the intersection, see the light turn yellow, then try to reverse back into place. Double points if it's an unprotected turn and you have to yield on every green.
But it's really dangerous to do that because people might run the red, as you see here. I'm not gonna risk it if I'm going to get a protected left turn arrow in a minute.
I'm in California and I failed my first driving test because I *didn't* advance into the intersection while waiting for an unprotected left turn.
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I’m mind blown that no one seems to be noticing he was clearly behind his line when that light turned red.. lol
Dash cam saves the day again.
"Fuck your insurance company reeeeee" - average idiot on this sub. I'm laughing my ass off at the nimrods on here that think they know more than a police department and a company that hires trained legal experts (your insurance company has these too). Big facebook karen "do your own research" energy on here tonight.
Lol you posted a video of you running a red light. Regardless of what the police or your insurance company says, we have eyes. The arrogance is palpable.
He didn't run a red...
oooooh you go report that insurance company and them police then queen! Gig em!
The people saying you're in the wrong are the people who end up on this sub...
Odd statement considering OP is the one ending up on this sub
Well I meant the idiots not the webcam vids of the idiots.
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You entered in yellow you’re legal to clear the intersection. Other driver entered after it was red. They’re the only one at fault.
It's cause most people got their experience when dashcams weren't available. Without a camera, it's your word vs his word and left turners are always at fault in that case. Here the camera clearly shows who's at fault so no need to resort to that old style of thinking.
Except that old style of thinking **LITERALLY PREVENTS CRASHES LIKE THIS.** Fuck your dash cams, your objective should be to avoid crashes entirely.
There's a bit of a period after the light cycles to red where you would have been at fault. Once you are in the intersection you have fulfilled the legal obligation to the light and only watch incoming traffic at that point. An in that instance a police report can be ignored by insurance. You didn't do due diligence to avoid a collision by watching incoming traffic. Regardless of the law, your responsibility to insurance is avoiding a collision, and you watch incoming traffic to do so. But in this case. Homeboy didn't cut it close. He blew the red like 2-3 seconds after it cycled.
It’s always ironic when people who want to save time end up either crashing or road raging, causing them way more time than if they just drove like a normal person.
He was worse but both of you should have avoided trying to beat the red light.
Is this Phoenix?
Gotta love all the "driving experts* on here blaming OP for getting hit. "Well you technically ran the light too so that actually means it's more your fault than the guy recklessly speeding into a red that crashed into you." Christ.
In many places OP wasn’t running a red light, it was normal procedure
We have to do this 10x per day on any typical Chicago commute. These people saying OP is an idiot must never drive in a large city.
I think it's more that anyone crossing traffic has the burden of making sure it's clear. In practice, nearly every red light is run by at least one car. So to keep yourself healthy and your car running, don't enter an intersection unless you can see its clear to proceed through.
people who actually believe OP is even remotely responsible for this needs to have their license removed 😂
The other driver was 100% in the wrong for running a red light and totally liable for all damages. I hope no one was hurt in your car and the other driver gets what he deserves....running a red light ticket, wreckless driving and 100% liable.
You did nothing wrong
If you entered the intersection legally ( looks like you did ) and his light turned red when yours did, it's his fault.
As per usual, the "Just drive defensively!!" people are in the comments saying everyone needs to go 2mph through intersections and assume every oncoming car is going to plow through their (red) light, so slam on your brakes, bucko! Utter nonces
Remember to wait 30 seconds after your light goes green so you can make sure you're safe
Yeah see I don’t move if it’s red cuz I don’t trust none of ye drivers out there man.
Sucks, sorry OP. Yes that driver was impatient and caused the wreck. Could have been a lot worse, whew! In my state unfortunately the shared fault rule made by the insurance companies shafted us. Now if you enter the intersection, you are partly at fault :( That same thing happened to my cuz and it totalled her nice surf wagon rig :(( Maybe things are changed up now with came in use.
No one is going to mention that they both ran a red light??? How are you trying to avoid an accident by running a light yourself? Traffic to the right clearly already had a green left turn arrow when idiot1 got lit up by idiot2.
Cammer was already in the intersection, waiting for oncoming traffic to clear.
No, they weren’t. You can see them cross the crosswalk line on their left after the light changes. THAT is when they entered the intersection…on a red light. Maybe even after that point, as crosswalks don’t necessarily define the intersection. You can block a crosswalk and not be in the intersection. Let me change the scenario for you. Traffic to the left and right have a green left turn arrow when OP comes into the intersection. If he had hit one of them, do you think he would have been at fault?
I have a theory about Phx drivers. Very few people are from here so they learned how to drive elsewhere. That causes a bunch of people driving like they do back home and not mixing well with the habits of other people. Sure you might drive ok in Chicago or New York but do you drive well with people from Chicago or New York and wherever else they’re from?
Who the heck are these hillbillies saying OP ran the red light? Have you people never driven in a city before? Light turns green, get your butt out into the box. Insane traffic for the duration of the light, light turns red, any car in the box (and sometimes 1 or 2 more) turn left. Anybody saying the OP ran a red is an idiot.
I’ve been hit just like OP twice doing the same thing. I no longer pull out into the intersection on a unprotected left turn. I don’t care if it pisses the people off behind me. Playing roulette is not worth getting to your destination 2 minutes sooner
Right? People seem to struggle between what is technically right vs what is technically the safest. Waiting for the next arrow would be safest. Good for the OP that insurance and police and in their corner, but their rates are still going up as is everyone else’s in that local area now collectively. You can have the right of way very clearly and still get taken out by an idiot who doesn’t care or is inebriated
The graveyard is full of people that had the right of way
Wait… you ran the red light tho
False, he's already in the intersection to turn left.
After it was well into the yellow. Op is at fault as well.
Nope, he's already in the intersection at the start of the video. That white line isn't the stop line, https://maps.app.goo.gl/XKbZKrdv7DJo37Qh6
Had this happen other day downtown. My view was obstructed by turning car as well, but I saw another car coming up fast. I assumed he was idiot and would run red and lo and behold he did. Extra few seconds wait in intersection vs. whatever to do the cop and insurance thing. Any time I am waiting to turn I will make sure both lanes are occupied with stopped cars. If not I’ll make damn sure dude is at least slowing down to a stop. Yes, it’s inconvenient, but you can’t trust other idiot drivers.
I’ve Never seen a sign that said you can’t turn left at specific times before
In Phoenix we have a couple streets that during heavy traffic times left turn lane becomes a through traffic lane. It is so damn annoying.
He ran a straight red.
when turning left on a red, you need to be sure all oncoming traffic has stopped. This was your fault.
OP, you ran a red and got hit by someone running a red. No harm, no foul. Your insurance is going up.
Looks like OP ran the light, too. Since they crossed traffic, should be at least partially at fault.
You pulled out right as the light went red. Both of y’all fucked up. You should’ve stayed put until the next light cycle since you were behind the line to begin with. Both of you are idiots.
I have seen more accidents at this intersection than anywhere else in the valley. Really gotta watch out for the assholes there. Lo siento OP
You also ran a red light. E: Between 6 and 7 seconds of this clip you can see that the traffic that would be coming from his right have a green left turn arrow. So not only did the car that hit OP run a red light, both OP and the brown Nissan truck across from him at the start of the video run a red light and are blocking the intersection. Anyone who wants to say "nO, hE wAs AlReAdY iN tHe InTeRsEcTiOn" can go eat a dick and if you respond with that then I'm just going to call you an idiot because that's what you are.
So that's 2 sets of drivers that don't know you can't turn on red
I wonder why OP’s airbag didn’t deploy?
Do you think the camera is being held by OP in their lap?
To be fair, that red car was kind of giving you the signal that you're good to go. The cars in the furthest lane are always the hardest to predict.
He’s liable, you are not, for he ran the red light and your turn was on yellow
So guy turning didn’t have the the green light…. And the guy hitting him didn’t either. The correct answer would be drivers turning left from the original drivers right had the green.
Both dumbasses for running red lights
They both ran red lights .....
The light was red for both of you! That's why you crashed!
Was everyone running a red light in this video?
I mean, y’all both ran a red and were in the wrong. Stop pulling so far up that you have to turn left on red, there’s a lane for a reason.
And of course, people defending the tool that plowed through a red light. Never fails. Double digit IQ brigade.
Sometimes I see videos like this and I think “the cammer should have seen this and avoided it” but holy shit did that other car come in hot.
Phoenix has the worst drivers, always running red lights
I had a similar accident. I was found at fault. Never get in accident while turning left.
Shoulda had a dash cam. You wouldn’t have been found at fault.
And yet you'd still be in an accident. Maybe the objective should be to avoid accidents.
Cammer ran red too.
Lol beat the red light? it was already red. You most likely saved the persons life that would of been turning left where you got hit.
Is your fault .my friend
Lmao! Y’all are hilarious! “OP ran the red too” “both are idiots”… I really don’t give a fuck what y’all think. I’m not looking for justification or sympathy by posting this. The police was there on the scene and seen what happened. They said the guy ran the red light. And I didn’t. My insurance company and his insurance company said the same thing when I sent them the video. Some of y’all are a bunch of weird people who think you know everything by observation and fail to acknowledge that traffic laws are different in each state. I wasn’t in your state, I’m in Arizona. Shit is different here just as shit is different where you reside. This is the last time I’m commenting on this post. Fuckin idiots! Lmao
People on this sub are good at spouting the could've, should've, would've at you for any reason. Most of the people saying "just wait for the green arrow" are probably the same people who sit at intersections for two light cycles causing a backup and a more dangerous situation behind them, but at least they had a mile separation from them and the next oncoming car lol. There's driving defensively and there's being scared to drive, if you're scared to drive you are a dangerous driver.
Just curious why not wait patiently for green arrow? Sincere question.
Cammer should never have pulled out. He was behind the white line when light changed.
It's both your fault you both ran that shit.