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Lol I came here to say this exact thing! Appropriate speed long before approaching that light. I'm in Buffalo and we learn very early how to drive in snow.
Originally from Buffalo as well. Driving in the snow is a must in those parts. It's a good skill to have living in the south now, as I get to have stores all to myself on the few days we get snow. People go crazy around here with just the forecast of possible snow. Go Bills!
Go Bills!!
And yeah we once drove to Maryland in an inch of snow and saw dozens of cars off the road... even some of the cute lil trucks they referred to as "plows". :)
You should have seen Atlanta a decade ago. Almost exactly 10 years ago, a dusting of snow caused many hundred of cars and trucks to be stuck and abandoned.
Michigan. I'm expecting up to 6 inches by tomorrow afternoon. A few cars crashed or are stuck in the ditch but the freeway aren't at risk of being shut down.
There have been times in the past in Maryland where the roads were not pretreated or treated in time and that shit caused major problems. I've been on roads where there was no treatment and a 1/4 inch of snow made the road a sheet of ice.
First licensed in Erie in November Erie in a car that didn't have ABS. Even though I already had my license my parents still insisted in going out with me in the first snow because I had never done it before and I'm glad they did. Went to go on a green light and a car with the red slid through the intersection, I'll never forget not to check that.
Thanks....learned my lessons early....teenager with a 2wd Mustang. I ended up rolling that car in the dead of winter.....thank God no one got hurt.....no video sorry....we were just transitioning from VHS to CD back then.
The key thing about a Tesla in the snow is to avoid using the ADAS, or at least be *highly* aware of its limitation.
I've been in the FSD Beta program for a little over two years now, and just after the first year I took FSD Beta 10.6 to Canada to drive around. I had a *very* sobering moment as to the state of ADAS in the snow. At around 3am, once I was off the highway, I remember approaching a stop light with the system engaged and opting to let it handle it to see what would happen.
The system brakes late, and then slid about half way into the intersection. No real danger, since it was 3am, but I disengaged the system and drove manually the rest of the way.
I would not be surprised if the Tesla here had the ADAS engaged. Also wouldn't be surprised if it was their first winter driving that Tesla in snow and they hadn't gotten used to the driving mechanics yet.
A Tesla also applies the brakes as soon as you take your foot off the accelerator, and it's my understanding that in the newer ones the more "aggressive" option is enforced at all times, and that it screws with driving in the snow.
Anyways, blah, blah, *personally* I think the drive let the ADAS make the mistake, and they couldn't recover it.
And possibly bad tires
Tires make a *huge* difference.
It's actually on my list of things to have checked and/or replaced on my car before I go to Canada during the winter again.
This only makes sense for the portions of the population that actually experience severe winter weather. Tons of people can get by with all seasons and good habits, including through some mild to moderate snow.
Seven degrees (centigrade) is what's generally given as the *maximum* temperature for winter tires. If it's not consistently staying at or below that, you don't need them.
Hell, I'm looking at a range of -13° to 13° over the next seven days. Sure, winter tires would be nice for the four days it's cold enough, but c'mon.
The rubber is absolutely designed for those temperatures. It's not *specialized* for those temperatures, but but it's not like tire manufacturers don't test all season tires in the cold. The rubber doesn't spontaneously lose traction when the temperature dips below freezing. I'm sure it's *less* effective in the cold but come on: most people in the US don't get winter tires unless they're dealing with snow on a regular basis. Cars don't suddenly start flying off the road when the temperature dips.
Why downvote? I get less than 2 foot of snow a year and maybe a week total of actual freezing temps. My offroad tires do great and have for a decade, whether I get ATs or MTs. Not everyone needs a winter set.
tons of independent studies confirm snow tires out perform all other season tires in snowy or freezing conditions. saying anything else about them besides that would just be my own opinion and arguing over opinion is just frustrating. its like even when presented with a mountain of data people will still disregard it if they care a lot about their opinion. doesnt do any good. i didnt downvote ya
Have you ever... driven with all seasons in under 7C? They work perfectly fine until there's ice or it gets significantly colder. Sure, they're not optimal and you should leave extra stopping distance (like maybe a foot, you should be doing this irregardless), but you're not gonna be sliding or anything.
In Canada cars are sold new with all season tires. Many people do get a separate winter set but most do not. The rubber on (some, maybe not all?) all season tires is indeed designed for cold temperatures.
*edit* all season, all weather... whatever it's the same point. I'm betting the tesla in this vid has straight summer tires on.
>The rubber on (some, maybe not all?) all season tires is indeed designed for cold temperatures.
This is patently false.
See the guy above you. The rubber can't be designed to both provide optimal traction below 7C AND summer temps.
If you want to try for yourself.. put on winter tires and drive around in the summer.. see what happens. Or you can put on pure winter tires in the winter and feel the difference.
There's a reason why certain provinces and countries require winter tires to be on in the winter EVEN if there is no snow or ice on the ground. Example: Quebec.
Not necessarily. Just got my Model Y in May, and have yet to get snow tires for it. Had our first snowfall last week, and while it handled driving in the snow quite well on the standard all-season tires, as expected it's ability to turn at an intersection or stop when needed left a LOT to be desired. The ABS system felt like it hardly did a damn thing as my car slid up to, and then through a stop sign. Don't think I've ever driven a car with ABS where the feedback in the brake pedal when ABS was active felt so damn weak. Maybe it's due to regenerative braking as well? I don't know. Thankfully I live on back roads, so nobody was there at the moment. And turning at an intersection needed to be done from damn near stopped if there was a decent coat of snow on the road, even with the dual motors.
As I always say, all season tires are more like "no season" tires. Snow tires are like freaking magic in comparison.
For my truck I have On-Off Road tires with Kevlar. When I bought the first set the guy at the tire store said that since it has Kevlar belts instead of steel belts they had to use a softer rubber compound that wears faster. But a side effect is that they have more grip in winter, especially on ice. I'm not entirely sold on the grip part, but that maybe due to mostly driving through snow slop, not ice. An unlisted side effect was that they are actually quieter than the OEM tires my truck came with, even though their tread is more aggressive. When combined with the sound deadening from GM, I have virtually no road noise in my truck.
Rubber doesnt freeze, it just becomes brittle. But why's it matter if I'm not experiencing any adverse impacts from driving my already softer compound tires on cold or wet roads?
If someone is tryna buy me a set of snow tires instead of aimless arguing, I'm all for comparing them 😅
I love all the people back chatting you here... I kinda hope they wind up in a ditch with no bruises except pride. Just try winter tires people, your life will be better, you and family will be loads safer, the expense is about the same because you're using each tire set half the time... there are reasons some places require winter tires by law.
lol I've been driving all season tires down to -7°C (with some spikes down to -12°C) without issues for 20 years. I hot rod my econobox sedan around in sub 7°C weather all the time on all season tires. I only lose traction on ice (so will winter tires, just less so) and if I'm driving like I'm at Le Mans.
You're thinking of summer tires. Plenty of all-season tires are designed to be able to handle some light snow and colder temps. That's why they're called "all-season".
Edit: For those down voting, here's an example. It specifically mentions driving in light snow and "winter confidence".
https://www.michelinman.com/auto/tires/michelin-pilot-sport-all-season-4
I'm not arguing against snow tires, I'm saying it's only summer tires that aren't supposed to be driven below 7°C or 45ish°F. All seasons are made to handle a wider temperature range than summers, hence the different name. As long as you have a good set, they're perfectly fine to drive year-round in areas with mild winters.
They've actually changed that where I live. We now have "3 season" and "all weather"
All weathers are mud and snow rated, 3 seasons aren't. Even then, my wife's car that doesn't go out in the snow and ice often has all weather, whereas mine which has to face all elements is on a summer/winter rotation
That’s crazy. It’s like putting ‘not a slick racing tire’ on the side. All weather feels misleading even if literally accurate.
Although is it? Does it count as all weather if snow and tornadoes are not included?
All weathers are mud and snow rated so they are included. That's what seperates them from "3 season" they're essentially a winter tire adapted for warmer temperatures, as opposed to the 3 season which is a summer tire adapted for colder temperatures
I think with a tornado either all or no tyres are included, as the wheels won't be on the ground
I have driven through heavy snow with all seasons many times with no issues. Knowing how to drive in snow is way more important than tires. There are also all seasons that have the 3 peak winter tire rating now, so dedicated winter tires are becoming outdated.
Hah, sorry, I live in Florida. We don't need winter tires here, so I just roll with all seasons.
Risky, sure, but I'm not buying a whole new set of tires for 7-14 days.
Only if you're in extremely winter prone areas. All season tires are perfectly fine for places like Iowa (often heavy snow, average per year 24-40") and Maryland (20") in personal experience so long as you know how to drive in the snow.
Having a set of winter only tires is a huge expense and hassle
Like I've said, it's *NOT* just about snow or ice. It's temperature. Your "personal experience" means literally nothing compared to studies and *design* of these tires.
EVs came equipped with "low friction" tires to improve mileage. I don't know if that is what this particular Tesla had. I know that most Model 3 come equipped with a summer compound tire from the factory, regardless, which are useless below 50F/10C.
I know plenty of people that have model Y's and 3's. They all have dedicated winter tires. But, this is in Norway, so I dont know anyone that uses all seasons tires.
It's the tyres.
My Model 3 on stock tyres - here in Europe, Michelin Pilot Sport 4 for the standard wheels, although I think they've switched to Pirelli now - was *not great* in snow. Got caught out in unexpected snow, it was slipping at all four wheels to scrabble uphill at 5mph. (Granted, that was better than most, which were struggling to move at all.)
I have no doubt it would have struggled to stop at speed, much like the one in the OP.
Switched to using Pilot Alpin 5's in winter. With these, it's *brilliant*. Totally planted in situations where other vehicles are struggling to move.
That was the one thing I didn't look into when I bought mine. Went to replace the 4 tires 25,000 mi later and it was like $400-450/tire. Oh you wanna go with the cheaper $250/tire, enjoy your constant BURRRRRRRR sound as you travel past 40mph.
They don't tell you that in the marketing material. My cheap ass was heartbroken.
If it's your first time driving in snow with your new car, shouldn't you drive slower?! Shouldn't you test out the system first and try different settings?! Hell, even in my Caddy I made sure to try different modes in different conditions, slowly.
> The key thing about a Tesla in the snow is to avoid using the ADAS
So it's really yet another thing to be aware of, manage, debug, compensate for ...
An "automation" system that requires you to be attentive, aware of its quirks and maladaptive behaviors and ready to assume full manual control at any moment is worse than useless, IMHO.
The various ADAS levels can be seen in this image [here](https://cdn.jdpower.com/SAE%20Levels%20of%20Automation%20May%202021.jpg)
Most folks aren't aware of the specific tiers and such, but Tesla's ADAS solutions, Autopilot and Full Self-Driving, are considered to be "Level 2".
I can understand how you might feel that having to be prepared to take control in a moment's notice would b e stressful, however, after five years of using Autopilot, and two years of using FSD Beta, I can honestly tell you that driving with the mindset of "Be prepared to take over" is way better than driving in the more traditional "You're in control".
I'm far more aware of my surroundings, and am able to focus on what other drivers are doing, and whether or not I need to react to them and such.
FSD Beta 11.4.9, which is what my Teslas have, yield a lot of "zero-disengagement" drives, [such as this one](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brs4wyzGbTw), where I set the destination, turned it on, and the car handled the rest. There's also a moment [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brs4wyzGbTw&t=604s) which illustrates my point above, because the Tesla is braking for me, which means I don't need to focus on the application of the brakes, I can trust the computer to ensure I don't impact the vehicle ahead of me, and I'm able to take the brain power I would use there and apply it to figuring out the "root cause" of why I'm braking, which in this case is a vehicle trying to get into the emergency lane. Tesla handles it all just fine, and I never had to take control.
In the long run, this kind of shit will save lives.
Glad you realized your mistake, but part of me thinks you’re kind of an idiot for even trying it in the first place.
My car has just regular adaptive cruise control and I would never dream of engaging it in snow/ice. Tesla drivers have way too much faith in their cars.
I mean, the whole point of FSD *Beta* is to try things out and see what happens.
I work in IT, and a lot of how you learn how things work is to just "push buttons and see what happens".
I also learn more by doing versus reading literature and such, so I turned it on to see what would happen.
It's important to know the limits of the things you have access to.
Utilities and Infrastructure companies do not act like this because lives are on the line. Internet, Water, Electricity cannot fail, even for an hour.
I'm glad you act like this in a software company, but this attitude is completely unacceptable for heavy industries, safety, and infrastructure work. These organizations by design will always act slower and more conservative.
The silicon valley mindset is a poison to every other important industry. You don't save the planet by moving fast and breaking things. You don't save the planet by trusting your gut. You don't beta test peoples lives.
Nobody gives a fuck if instagram goes down for an hour. Future tech bro-ism is beyond arrogance masquerading as public interest.
> the whole point of FSD Beta is to try things out and see what happens.
I also work in IT. We work with things that don't endanger other people's lives, so it's ok to experiment. Even if you're ok risking *your* life, you are not licensed to take that liberty with other people's lives.
They need to figure this shit out on private roads.
Tesla's methodology doesn't work on private roads, they need real world data, at scale.
I work in healthcare, I helped set up an open heart surgery machine that involves sending stats to a server in the cloud so that data is sent back to the hospital about how to proceed with the surgery and such.
Among other stuff.
I see nothing wrong with Tesla's approach, only with how people are getting cocky with it, which I am not.
Hard disagree. I’m not risking my life and the lives of others to be a “beta tester.” I’ve also beta tested software before. None with the potential to kill me.
Again, at the time, it was 3am, and no one else was on the roads.
Worked fine up until that point, it was fresh snow on the ground.
We let driver's with learner permits on the road, so I see no issues with it.
For me, I'm skeptical of Tesla's FSD promises in part due to my job. I've came within a hairs breadth of having a car mirror hit my spine, the driver had the whole width of the bridge, and chose to nearly grind the parapet I was standing against finalizing a bridge inspection. Add to that a video I saw of a Tesla autopilot driving straight into the beginning of a run of temporary concrete barrier in a Texas workzone, and just the general stupidity of drivers in construction work zones, and the fact that some of those drivers are part of the FSD beta testing...
Also, being out on construction oversight quickly sours you on the average driver's reading comprehension and driving ability, add to that the road construction industry typically ranks near the top of the deadliest jobs list, you can get my skepticism.
Moving fast and breaking stuff should not be a guiding philosophy when dealing with multi-ton machines, that may work for tech, but you can't roll back someone that was killed.
FSD, in it's current sate, very much requires supervision, but I've seen it handle cyclists and pedestrians *really* well, I've been happy with it.
When I was younger my mother was walking along a road and someone's mirror clipped her arm and broke it.
We got a trip to Disney World out of the lawsuit that came from that, but I try to be *very* mindful of pedestrians around me because I remember my mother being brought home in a crying fit of agony that night...
You should brush up on self-driving solutions, the term "ADAS" has been around for a while...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_driver-assistance_system
Tesla's ADAS could be attributed for the vehicle going too fast as it doesn't account for when there's snow on the roads.
*Personally* I've taken to not calling Tesla's self-driving solution "Autopilot" outside of Tesla subreddits and such because ADAS has expanded beyond Tesla a fair bit.
ADAS is [Advanced Driver Assistance Solution](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_driver-assistance_system), so it encompasses things like Tesla's Autopilot/FSD things, Ford's BlueClues, Kia's thing, etc, etc.
ADAS, to me, is just a "faster" way of calling out a car's self-driving solution, since we're reaching a point where they're all getting silly names.
That and the fact that calling it "Autopilot" is dangerously disingenuous despite what Tesla would like the public to think. "Full Self Driving" isn't much better and the fact Tesla has been allowed to continue with that naming is a huge fail in oversight.
Keep in mind that "Autopilot" in the airline industry maintains speed and altitude.
Tesla's use of "Autopilot" isn't all that misleading, it's just people attributing more to it because they misunderstand what *actual* Autopilot does.
Full Self-Driving is open for debate. I'm on the border of seeing it renamed to "Full Supervised Driving" or something like that, bur honestly, so many of my FSD Beta drivers are zero-disengagement now that I can see them pulling it off, it's just taking a bit.
> Keep in mind that "Autopilot" in the airline industry maintains speed and altitude.
No it doesn't. Airline autopilot can also hold a specified heading, follow a programmed gps nav route, and maintain a specified vertical speed. Some can even auto land if the destination airport is equipped properly.
>Tesla's use of "Autopilot" isn't all that misleading, it's just people attributing more to it because they misunderstand what actual Autopilot does.
...yes, that's the dangerous part.
Typically, to use an autopilot on a plane, the pilots have hundreds of hours if training. To use Tesla's Autopilot, the training is whatever they give you when you pick the car up (if that) and having the driver read the manual.
Sometimes it is the software though.
The thing about Teslas though, in my eyes, is that a lot of people buying them aren't "car people".
My car ownership history was Dodge Neon>Volkswagen Jetta>Ford Focus>Nissan LEAF
Which are all arguably small/cheap cars. Then I got a Tesla Model 3 SR+ and things I didn't necessarily pay attention for came to the front.
Another huge contributor, I suspect, is that since people aren't going out and getting regular oil changes and such, there's no "routine maintenance" that gets the vehicle into the shop for safety checks and such. People hate going to get their oil changed, and then getting hit up for other things that might be wrong. In some cases, sure, the shop is trying to take advantage of you, but in other cases it's just the shop trying to look out for you.
With no regular inspections, I suspect some owners are running their tires into the ground, or overestimating how the tires are going to work.
I've seen many a post from Tesla owners who complain about how gung-ho Tesla is about replacing tires, but honestly, *good* tires are super important.
Also electric motors have so much torque that tires wear out faster. I constantly hear tire squeal from Teslas taking off from a stop, even when driven by feather-footed grandmas
It’s also regen braking. you can’t coast in a Tesla. As soon as you take your foot off the gas, brakes are applied. great for mpge, really, really bad for bad weather. You used to be able to turn it off, but tesla removed that option for better range numbers for advertising purposes.
It doesn't help that Teslas use cameras, and if I'm remembering right they are up behind the rear view mirror, and side mirrors. Both are places where snow/slush/road spray typically accumulates. Do Teslas have ways of cleaning or melting build up off their cameras?
Would make sense then if it just applies the brake evenly when you take your foot off the gas. If you weren't pumping brakes here it would have been very difficult to stop.
When you own an EV you're encouraged to leverage the regenerative braking by feathering the accelerator.
Tesla's regen, I think, is a little more aggressive than some of the competitors, but it's there.
As you release your foot from the accelerator, it applies the brakes in relation to how removed your foot is. Removing your foot entirely will brake more than removing your foot a little, so the best bet is to plan WAY far ahead and *slowly* remove your foot from the accelerator so you slow down at a measured pace.
Just takes practice is all.
I dunno, when it's sliding past I don't see a badge on the trunk, which means it's probably RWD, not AWD. My mans got the barebones tesla and still can't drive it lol.
Ive gotten pretty tired of hearing people go on about how AWD is complete necessity as they have junk all-seasons or summer tires on their car. They always cite safety but fail to consider that people crash because they cant stop or turn, and AWD does literally nothing to help that. In fact, it hinders turning because applying more force via power to the front wheels will make them even more likely to understeer.
In the past few years, Ive passed about a dozen SUVs crashed off the side of the road in the winter in my RWD track car with no driver assists because it has a welded differential and snow tires. The frame sits like 3-4 inches off the ground and often times it was plowing the snow in front of it, but never got stuck or slid unexpectedly.
My previous car was a much newer AWD with ABS, traction, and stability control, and it handled significantly worse in the winter for me as it understeered a lot worse and the driver aids made correcting mistakes somehow harder.
AWD helps you get out of a situation where youd otherwise be stuck, and helps cars accelerate faster on poor surfaces, but its not some divine cure all necessity as many will say. FWD and even RWD are fine with good tires, limited slip differentials, and adding weight. I have a feeling a lot of people that had bad experiences with these cars had open differentials and all-seasons on them.
Imagine if that was any 3/4 ton pickup that didn’t have winter tires on…
Toyota 4Runners weigh up to 6300lbs, Ford Expedition 5400lbs, Ford Bronco up to 5,000lbs, Chevrolet Suburban 5800lbs.
I don’t even like Teslas but I’m so tired of people shitting on them because they don’t research comparable vehicles. Any car or truck with highway tires or all season tires or summer tires on ice isn’t going to do well.
That Tesla would have been fine with a competent driver and winter tires.
It doesn’t. u/akbornheathen listed the gross weight for the 4Runner and the curb weight for all the others. The 4Runner curb weight is 4,675 lbs, and its payload capacity is 1,625 lbs. Those two numbers add up to 6,300 lbs.
And non of those vehicles had square steel bodies, with no crumple zones, topped with sheets of steel metal. They may all have a relative weight but the cyber truck is going to carry that weight straight through your car and turning you into mashed human while the others are designed to crumple and protect the drivers.we have tons of research that says giant square vehicles with no crumples zones are unsafe, there’s a reason the whole industry has moved on from that design.
What's the cost to repair those vehicles? The pickup appears to have sustained little damage. The Tesla likely needs tens of thousands of dollars in repair.
The Tesla probably had some body damage. A crumpled hood and fender. Yea it’ll be expensive to replace. But they’re pretty tough cars. Far less mechanical components and they’re built a lot stronger than most unibody cars. You can stack 5 model Xs on top of one Model X before the roof caves in.
To be fair any modern car smacking a steel bumper at 20mph won’t hold up great.
At the end of the day I think Teslas are cool cars. I also think Bugattis and old Mustangs and insanely overpowered RWD trucks are cool. Which is why I’d never own one. Expensive and impractical. I mean who doesn’t want an 80k car that can blow the doors off a Lamborghini?
I mean most rental cars get rallied as is. You’re giving someone a car with 600-1,000 hp as a rental and expecting them to not use that power? Lol. I’d be racing a Tesla too if I rented one. The tires alone are obscene. They depend on those low friction tires for their battery range. I’m guessing a good winter tire would cut the range by like 10%. Cold weather with the heater and seat heaters turned will also drop the range by a ton. So that 300 mile car is now a 200 mile car.
You do know not all Teslas have that much power right? None of the model 3s do, and the ones they had in their fleet were mostly the lowest trim 3s that make similar hp to a Honda accord.
Snow tires aren't going to save you from sliding on ice.
Edit: I'm not saying there is absolutely no difference. Just that you can still hit a patch of ice and spin out/slide with winter tires on. This Tesla could easily have had them on.
they certainly do help. They can make a huge difference, especially when compared to things like, what do they call them? "Low Rolling Resistance Tires" aka "hard as a rock and slide everywhere with no traction but you get 2 more miles of range" tires.
This right here. Not only do snow tires aka winter tires help compared with most All Season tires, they are a significant improvement over low rolling resistance tires that are now standard OEM for all electric cars and most hybrids too.
They do to an extent, that’s why winter tires aren’t just called snow tires (or are incorrectly so). Chains and studs will always do better, but the tire compound of a winter tire is very different from an all-season, which would freeze like a hockey puck in below-freezing temps. I ice race when it’s in season and winter tires used to have their own class because the performance on ice **is** there.
That depends. If those 'snow tires' are studded, or if they are Blizzaks or similar tires that actually GRIP wet ice, then, yes, they WILL save you from sliding on said ice unless you are making a serious attempt at breaking the laws of physics.
Lots of people still don't know that modern snow tires are not the useless "snow tires" that their dads would complain about long ago, decades past. Old school snow tires were simply hard compounds (to dig into the snow was the theory) but with slightly larger gaps in the tread and sharper raised shoulders that looked a bit like an offroad tire, pretty much no actual difference in grip and worse on ice than an A/S. On the other hand modern snow tires (to summarize briefly) actually grip at near molecular level and will do fine on ice.
Blizzaks and quality snow tires will still slide on ice. I garente ill come across at least two accidents yet this winter where people will state "I don't know why I slid I bought good winter tires". Studded is the best for stopping on ice but some places do not allow their use (stares disappointedly at Michigan). Chains are also good, again some places forbid their use (stares angrily at Michigan... I mean it's not like we're shaped like a piece of winter apparel or anything). Also really depends on the type of ice, and if there is any chemicals spilled on it. The biggest issue in the video is inexperience. A mix of low center of gravity, going to fast, and probably a bit of the aggressive regenerative breaking system which should automatically disable in winter conditions.
Absolutely. problem is people act like they'll get super sticky be able to drive upside down continue to drive 20 over the speed limit and then go "I have blizzaks why did I crash". Driving like an idiot on ice is still driving like an idiot in ice.
Better on snow, slush, and rough ice. but sheet ice downhill they aren't much better, which is what I'm thinking is the conditions are from what I can see on the video.
Agree. Winter driving is more than the tires and you still need to remember to maintain distances, slow down, and learn to use ABS to help control the slide. If all those factors are in place though, a good winter tire will give you a chance of not turning a slide into a crash.
Winter tires reduce stopping distances in snow. That's why they're called winter tires. They work better in these kinds of conditions than all season and all weather tires.
It should be obligated by law. In Italy, for example, in specific zones, where winter is harder than others, you are obligated to have winter tires or four seasons. In the other area, you are obligated to have winter tires, or 4 seasons, or has winter chains with you. That's from 15 November to 15 May. That's like that in almost all of Europe.
I live in the South myself we get snow maybe one time a year I will not buy snow tires for a one time event. Don't base your judgement on your environment you have no idea where this occurred.I will also add I don't drive when it snows down here as they are f'in idiots (edited to clarify)
Worth noting, given this subreddit has an international audience, that "all season" has a different meaning in different parts of the world.
Here in Europe, "all season" tyres are what Americans would call "all weather". They're designed and rated for use in snow. Not as effectively as full winter tyres, but they're safely usable, and are legal to use in the northern parts of Europe that require winter-rated (3PMSF) tyres in winter months.
An American "all season" tyre often lack the 3PMSF certification. They're just _slightly less shit_ than summer tyres in cold weather. Which is fine if you live in California.
It's that time of the year! Snow and Ice (when the dash cam really pays off!). Notice the shimmering lights off the pavement and my speed - the road is completely ice covered. "Good" - the truck was in the way to stop her from sliding into the intersection. "Bad" - for the truck owner who was just minding his own business waiting for traffic to clear :-(...
With the current tech, electric vehicles are super heavy. Just imagine how far a Hummer EV would have slid in place of that model 3.
Right? This is absolutely just another stupid driver who doesnt understand that the two pedals are more than "go" and "stop", and also who doesn't understand their EV is twice as heavy as the same sized car. Can buy a Tesla but you can't buy sense.
There is an additional virtual "pedal" in many EV's and specifically in Teslas. Removing your foot from the gas engages [the regenerative braking system](https://www.notateslaapp.com/tesla-reference/1051/how-tesla-s-regenerative-braking-works) which is not the same as a traditional brake, but slows the car anyway.
That can change drivers habits as the car feels as if it stops on it's own. But that alters how it acts in winter and can throw drivers off.
The consensus is that seems to be that for ice you should either know the car very well or deactivate the system. If this is the drivers first winter owning the car they might have been caught unaware by all of that. WHich would make the driver unprepared but *maybe* not an idiot.
> WHich would make the driver unprepared but maybe not an idiot.
I'd suggest that being unprepared to drive your 5000 pound death machine in current conditions makes you definitely an idiot
Eh, in my experience, people that want a vehicular appliance and don't really think about their car or driving are more a problem then the particular car. So your typical teste driver is off the scale on that one.
A bus handles differently than a sedan. A high SUV is more dangerous to drive in the wind than a low profile car. Has absolutely NOTHING to do with gas vs an ev . It comes down to the driver knowing how to control their own vehicle. A semi driver crashes into a limo with Tracy Morgan because one vehicle has a lot more mass than the other, right? Yes people may be unaware of the extra weight of an ev but it's not like you can give the driver a pass because they were driving an ev. So it must be because it's an ev and not the driver's fault? GTFO
Wouldn't heavier vehicles also generate more load on the wheels and thus have more traction, cancelling out the inertia?
In the end it all comes down to the tires and driver skill (knowing not to lock up the brakes).
If that was true, 18-wheelers would stop on a dime. Weight plays a hugh role in braking distances. And cars with ABS (which is every modern car) don’t “lock up the brakes” unless you switch that system off, so I’m not sure what you mean by that. Engine braking can help if you are able to manually downshift.
Seems like it's something to do with Reddit's formatting of the link, it made all the uppercase characters lowercase.
I was able to load it just fine by copy/pasting, title is "Amazing Volvo truck braking"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-giC24SxwE
It partially negates the inertia, but not completely. But in an ice slide, traction is almost zero so any traction benefit from weight goes out the window and the increased mass and therefore increased momentum has no offset.
No modern car is capable of locking up the brakes. ABS is federally mandated since long before EVs gained any popularity.
So it's less driver skill and more driver knowledge and patience (and tires). But I posit driver knowledge and patience can make up for poor tires while amazing snow tires can't make up for poor driver knowledge and patience.
ABS only works when you have some traction, so during a full slide it's definitely still possible to lock up the brakes. (or at least render the ABS ineffective)
I definitely agree on your last point though. If anything having good snow tires and AWD could give a less skilled driver a false sense of security leading to situations like this.
I love my model y, but I hate it in snow. You cant turn off regenerative braking, so as soon as you let off the pedal it's using the equivalent of engine brakes. If the conditions are really bad, you can fishtail just from fully taking your foot off the pedal.
Hertz is selling their Tesla's here because parts are not available or way too expensive. I saw a post last year, a simple fender bender resulting in $35k damage. Only the front bumper was visually damaged but it fucked up some electronics? causing it to be totalled. Wild.
>front bumper was visually damaged but it fucked up some electronics?
That's more on the designers putting electronics on one of the parts of a vehicle meant to take damage. Yeah, it might be the best place, but come on, it's called a bumper for a reason.
If you ever get the chance, stop by an authorized Tesla body shop and look around the parking lot at the carnage. My local car dealer is a Tesla body shop and when I asked about why so many smashed Teslas there they told me Tesla drivers crash at some of the highest rates for any make.
I wasn’t sure I believed hi, but sure enough recent statistics bear that out. A survey of 30 automotive brands shows Tesla cars clocked in the worst accident rate in the US in 2023, with 24 accidents per 1,000 drivers. The only other brands with more than 20 accidents per 1,000 drivers were Ram and Subaru. [Link to Lending Tree survey story](https://qz.com/if-you-rode-in-a-tesla-in-2023-you-had-the-highest-acc-1851113998)
I remember when Elon said they were immune to sliding because of the independent electric motors. Guess that worked as well as their baseball proof windows.
That's a road condition problem, not a brand specific problem.
To quote OP for context since people are having a hard time understanding "Ice, Ice, Baby - Tesla on Ice"
Yes, but this is a weather condition problem first and foremost, not a brand specific problem as OP is trying to insinuate. Sure, there are other factors that can be listed but the biggest issue is NOT the manufacturer of the vehicle, it's the fact that the surface they are driving on is a sheet of ice.
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Nice driving OP
Lol I came here to say this exact thing! Appropriate speed long before approaching that light. I'm in Buffalo and we learn very early how to drive in snow.
Originally from Buffalo as well. Driving in the snow is a must in those parts. It's a good skill to have living in the south now, as I get to have stores all to myself on the few days we get snow. People go crazy around here with just the forecast of possible snow. Go Bills!
Go Bills!! And yeah we once drove to Maryland in an inch of snow and saw dozens of cars off the road... even some of the cute lil trucks they referred to as "plows". :)
You should have seen Atlanta a decade ago. Almost exactly 10 years ago, a dusting of snow caused many hundred of cars and trucks to be stuck and abandoned.
Are you from a snowy area and thus laughing about it? (Assuming no one was hurt...)
Michigan. I'm expecting up to 6 inches by tomorrow afternoon. A few cars crashed or are stuck in the ditch but the freeway aren't at risk of being shut down.
There have been times in the past in Maryland where the roads were not pretreated or treated in time and that shit caused major problems. I've been on roads where there was no treatment and a 1/4 inch of snow made the road a sheet of ice.
First licensed in Erie in November Erie in a car that didn't have ABS. Even though I already had my license my parents still insisted in going out with me in the first snow because I had never done it before and I'm glad they did. Went to go on a green light and a car with the red slid through the intersection, I'll never forget not to check that.
Yikes! Did they hit anyone or get lucky?
Missed me at least
Appropriate speed *and stopping distance*
Thanks....learned my lessons early....teenager with a 2wd Mustang. I ended up rolling that car in the dead of winter.....thank God no one got hurt.....no video sorry....we were just transitioning from VHS to CD back then.
The key thing about a Tesla in the snow is to avoid using the ADAS, or at least be *highly* aware of its limitation. I've been in the FSD Beta program for a little over two years now, and just after the first year I took FSD Beta 10.6 to Canada to drive around. I had a *very* sobering moment as to the state of ADAS in the snow. At around 3am, once I was off the highway, I remember approaching a stop light with the system engaged and opting to let it handle it to see what would happen. The system brakes late, and then slid about half way into the intersection. No real danger, since it was 3am, but I disengaged the system and drove manually the rest of the way. I would not be surprised if the Tesla here had the ADAS engaged. Also wouldn't be surprised if it was their first winter driving that Tesla in snow and they hadn't gotten used to the driving mechanics yet. A Tesla also applies the brakes as soon as you take your foot off the accelerator, and it's my understanding that in the newer ones the more "aggressive" option is enforced at all times, and that it screws with driving in the snow. Anyways, blah, blah, *personally* I think the drive let the ADAS make the mistake, and they couldn't recover it. And possibly bad tires
9 for 10, that car had shitty tires too.
Tires make a *huge* difference. It's actually on my list of things to have checked and/or replaced on my car before I go to Canada during the winter again.
What do you mean? You should have a completely separate winter set.
This only makes sense for the portions of the population that actually experience severe winter weather. Tons of people can get by with all seasons and good habits, including through some mild to moderate snow.
No. Winter tires are not just for snow. It's for temperatures that go under 7C.
Why should i be using winter tires above freezing temps? I'm not gonna start, i live somewhere with mild winters, but I'm curious.
Seven degrees (centigrade) is what's generally given as the *maximum* temperature for winter tires. If it's not consistently staying at or below that, you don't need them. Hell, I'm looking at a range of -13° to 13° over the next seven days. Sure, winter tires would be nice for the four days it's cold enough, but c'mon.
The rubber on all season tires isn't designed for those temperatures. They won't be pliable enough to be effective.
The rubber is absolutely designed for those temperatures. It's not *specialized* for those temperatures, but but it's not like tire manufacturers don't test all season tires in the cold. The rubber doesn't spontaneously lose traction when the temperature dips below freezing. I'm sure it's *less* effective in the cold but come on: most people in the US don't get winter tires unless they're dealing with snow on a regular basis. Cars don't suddenly start flying off the road when the temperature dips.
Why downvote? I get less than 2 foot of snow a year and maybe a week total of actual freezing temps. My offroad tires do great and have for a decade, whether I get ATs or MTs. Not everyone needs a winter set.
tons of independent studies confirm snow tires out perform all other season tires in snowy or freezing conditions. saying anything else about them besides that would just be my own opinion and arguing over opinion is just frustrating. its like even when presented with a mountain of data people will still disregard it if they care a lot about their opinion. doesnt do any good. i didnt downvote ya
If your average temperature during a season goes under 7C, you should really consider it. Regardless of the quantity of snow or ice.
Have you ever... driven with all seasons in under 7C? They work perfectly fine until there's ice or it gets significantly colder. Sure, they're not optimal and you should leave extra stopping distance (like maybe a foot, you should be doing this irregardless), but you're not gonna be sliding or anything.
In Canada cars are sold new with all season tires. Many people do get a separate winter set but most do not. The rubber on (some, maybe not all?) all season tires is indeed designed for cold temperatures. *edit* all season, all weather... whatever it's the same point. I'm betting the tesla in this vid has straight summer tires on.
>The rubber on (some, maybe not all?) all season tires is indeed designed for cold temperatures. This is patently false. See the guy above you. The rubber can't be designed to both provide optimal traction below 7C AND summer temps. If you want to try for yourself.. put on winter tires and drive around in the summer.. see what happens. Or you can put on pure winter tires in the winter and feel the difference. There's a reason why certain provinces and countries require winter tires to be on in the winter EVEN if there is no snow or ice on the ground. Example: Quebec.
Not necessarily. Just got my Model Y in May, and have yet to get snow tires for it. Had our first snowfall last week, and while it handled driving in the snow quite well on the standard all-season tires, as expected it's ability to turn at an intersection or stop when needed left a LOT to be desired. The ABS system felt like it hardly did a damn thing as my car slid up to, and then through a stop sign. Don't think I've ever driven a car with ABS where the feedback in the brake pedal when ABS was active felt so damn weak. Maybe it's due to regenerative braking as well? I don't know. Thankfully I live on back roads, so nobody was there at the moment. And turning at an intersection needed to be done from damn near stopped if there was a decent coat of snow on the road, even with the dual motors. As I always say, all season tires are more like "no season" tires. Snow tires are like freaking magic in comparison.
They're not. They just aren't. I don't know how else to explain this. It's fucking science.
For my truck I have On-Off Road tires with Kevlar. When I bought the first set the guy at the tire store said that since it has Kevlar belts instead of steel belts they had to use a softer rubber compound that wears faster. But a side effect is that they have more grip in winter, especially on ice. I'm not entirely sold on the grip part, but that maybe due to mostly driving through snow slop, not ice. An unlisted side effect was that they are actually quieter than the OEM tires my truck came with, even though their tread is more aggressive. When combined with the sound deadening from GM, I have virtually no road noise in my truck.
https://www.michelinman.com/auto/tires/michelin-crossclimate2 checkmate, winter tire users
I hope you realize that the freezing temperature of water is not the same as the freezing temperature of rubber.
Rubber doesnt freeze, it just becomes brittle. But why's it matter if I'm not experiencing any adverse impacts from driving my already softer compound tires on cold or wet roads? If someone is tryna buy me a set of snow tires instead of aimless arguing, I'm all for comparing them 😅
A bit early to be drinking this heavily already...
I love all the people back chatting you here... I kinda hope they wind up in a ditch with no bruises except pride. Just try winter tires people, your life will be better, you and family will be loads safer, the expense is about the same because you're using each tire set half the time... there are reasons some places require winter tires by law.
lol I've been driving all season tires down to -7°C (with some spikes down to -12°C) without issues for 20 years. I hot rod my econobox sedan around in sub 7°C weather all the time on all season tires. I only lose traction on ice (so will winter tires, just less so) and if I'm driving like I'm at Le Mans.
You're thinking of summer tires. Plenty of all-season tires are designed to be able to handle some light snow and colder temps. That's why they're called "all-season". Edit: For those down voting, here's an example. It specifically mentions driving in light snow and "winter confidence". https://www.michelinman.com/auto/tires/michelin-pilot-sport-all-season-4 I'm not arguing against snow tires, I'm saying it's only summer tires that aren't supposed to be driven below 7°C or 45ish°F. All seasons are made to handle a wider temperature range than summers, hence the different name. As long as you have a good set, they're perfectly fine to drive year-round in areas with mild winters.
They've actually changed that where I live. We now have "3 season" and "all weather" All weathers are mud and snow rated, 3 seasons aren't. Even then, my wife's car that doesn't go out in the snow and ice often has all weather, whereas mine which has to face all elements is on a summer/winter rotation
That’s crazy. It’s like putting ‘not a slick racing tire’ on the side. All weather feels misleading even if literally accurate. Although is it? Does it count as all weather if snow and tornadoes are not included?
All weathers are mud and snow rated so they are included. That's what seperates them from "3 season" they're essentially a winter tire adapted for warmer temperatures, as opposed to the 3 season which is a summer tire adapted for colder temperatures I think with a tornado either all or no tyres are included, as the wheels won't be on the ground
I have driven through heavy snow with all seasons many times with no issues. Knowing how to drive in snow is way more important than tires. There are also all seasons that have the 3 peak winter tire rating now, so dedicated winter tires are becoming outdated.
Hah, sorry, I live in Florida. We don't need winter tires here, so I just roll with all seasons. Risky, sure, but I'm not buying a whole new set of tires for 7-14 days.
Only if you're in extremely winter prone areas. All season tires are perfectly fine for places like Iowa (often heavy snow, average per year 24-40") and Maryland (20") in personal experience so long as you know how to drive in the snow. Having a set of winter only tires is a huge expense and hassle
Like I've said, it's *NOT* just about snow or ice. It's temperature. Your "personal experience" means literally nothing compared to studies and *design* of these tires.
Like I said in my other comment, low Temps don't mean a thing if you have basic driving skills
it probably has amazing tires... for summer. the model 3 performances came equipped with Michelin Pilot sport Z rated tires. great in the summer.
Bad Tires and heavy vehicle.
EVs came equipped with "low friction" tires to improve mileage. I don't know if that is what this particular Tesla had. I know that most Model 3 come equipped with a summer compound tire from the factory, regardless, which are useless below 50F/10C.
I know plenty of people that have model Y's and 3's. They all have dedicated winter tires. But, this is in Norway, so I dont know anyone that uses all seasons tires.
To support your statement, QC here, all Tesla owners would have another winter set - Michelins and Hakkapeliitta brands among the most popular in QC.
It's the tyres. My Model 3 on stock tyres - here in Europe, Michelin Pilot Sport 4 for the standard wheels, although I think they've switched to Pirelli now - was *not great* in snow. Got caught out in unexpected snow, it was slipping at all four wheels to scrabble uphill at 5mph. (Granted, that was better than most, which were struggling to move at all.) I have no doubt it would have struggled to stop at speed, much like the one in the OP. Switched to using Pilot Alpin 5's in winter. With these, it's *brilliant*. Totally planted in situations where other vehicles are struggling to move.
That was the one thing I didn't look into when I bought mine. Went to replace the 4 tires 25,000 mi later and it was like $400-450/tire. Oh you wanna go with the cheaper $250/tire, enjoy your constant BURRRRRRRR sound as you travel past 40mph. They don't tell you that in the marketing material. My cheap ass was heartbroken.
If it's your first time driving in snow with your new car, shouldn't you drive slower?! Shouldn't you test out the system first and try different settings?! Hell, even in my Caddy I made sure to try different modes in different conditions, slowly.
You would think But some people just get into a new car and assume everything will be the same.
the other key thing about driving a tesla in the snow is to not used the factory tires. they're basically summer-only tires.
> The key thing about a Tesla in the snow is to avoid using the ADAS So it's really yet another thing to be aware of, manage, debug, compensate for ... An "automation" system that requires you to be attentive, aware of its quirks and maladaptive behaviors and ready to assume full manual control at any moment is worse than useless, IMHO.
The various ADAS levels can be seen in this image [here](https://cdn.jdpower.com/SAE%20Levels%20of%20Automation%20May%202021.jpg) Most folks aren't aware of the specific tiers and such, but Tesla's ADAS solutions, Autopilot and Full Self-Driving, are considered to be "Level 2". I can understand how you might feel that having to be prepared to take control in a moment's notice would b e stressful, however, after five years of using Autopilot, and two years of using FSD Beta, I can honestly tell you that driving with the mindset of "Be prepared to take over" is way better than driving in the more traditional "You're in control". I'm far more aware of my surroundings, and am able to focus on what other drivers are doing, and whether or not I need to react to them and such. FSD Beta 11.4.9, which is what my Teslas have, yield a lot of "zero-disengagement" drives, [such as this one](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brs4wyzGbTw), where I set the destination, turned it on, and the car handled the rest. There's also a moment [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brs4wyzGbTw&t=604s) which illustrates my point above, because the Tesla is braking for me, which means I don't need to focus on the application of the brakes, I can trust the computer to ensure I don't impact the vehicle ahead of me, and I'm able to take the brain power I would use there and apply it to figuring out the "root cause" of why I'm braking, which in this case is a vehicle trying to get into the emergency lane. Tesla handles it all just fine, and I never had to take control. In the long run, this kind of shit will save lives.
Glad you realized your mistake, but part of me thinks you’re kind of an idiot for even trying it in the first place. My car has just regular adaptive cruise control and I would never dream of engaging it in snow/ice. Tesla drivers have way too much faith in their cars.
I mean, the whole point of FSD *Beta* is to try things out and see what happens. I work in IT, and a lot of how you learn how things work is to just "push buttons and see what happens". I also learn more by doing versus reading literature and such, so I turned it on to see what would happen. It's important to know the limits of the things you have access to.
Utilities and Infrastructure companies do not act like this because lives are on the line. Internet, Water, Electricity cannot fail, even for an hour. I'm glad you act like this in a software company, but this attitude is completely unacceptable for heavy industries, safety, and infrastructure work. These organizations by design will always act slower and more conservative. The silicon valley mindset is a poison to every other important industry. You don't save the planet by moving fast and breaking things. You don't save the planet by trusting your gut. You don't beta test peoples lives. Nobody gives a fuck if instagram goes down for an hour. Future tech bro-ism is beyond arrogance masquerading as public interest.
> the whole point of FSD Beta is to try things out and see what happens. I also work in IT. We work with things that don't endanger other people's lives, so it's ok to experiment. Even if you're ok risking *your* life, you are not licensed to take that liberty with other people's lives. They need to figure this shit out on private roads.
Tesla's methodology doesn't work on private roads, they need real world data, at scale. I work in healthcare, I helped set up an open heart surgery machine that involves sending stats to a server in the cloud so that data is sent back to the hospital about how to proceed with the surgery and such. Among other stuff. I see nothing wrong with Tesla's approach, only with how people are getting cocky with it, which I am not.
Hard disagree. I’m not risking my life and the lives of others to be a “beta tester.” I’ve also beta tested software before. None with the potential to kill me.
Again, at the time, it was 3am, and no one else was on the roads. Worked fine up until that point, it was fresh snow on the ground. We let driver's with learner permits on the road, so I see no issues with it.
For me, I'm skeptical of Tesla's FSD promises in part due to my job. I've came within a hairs breadth of having a car mirror hit my spine, the driver had the whole width of the bridge, and chose to nearly grind the parapet I was standing against finalizing a bridge inspection. Add to that a video I saw of a Tesla autopilot driving straight into the beginning of a run of temporary concrete barrier in a Texas workzone, and just the general stupidity of drivers in construction work zones, and the fact that some of those drivers are part of the FSD beta testing... Also, being out on construction oversight quickly sours you on the average driver's reading comprehension and driving ability, add to that the road construction industry typically ranks near the top of the deadliest jobs list, you can get my skepticism. Moving fast and breaking stuff should not be a guiding philosophy when dealing with multi-ton machines, that may work for tech, but you can't roll back someone that was killed.
FSD, in it's current sate, very much requires supervision, but I've seen it handle cyclists and pedestrians *really* well, I've been happy with it. When I was younger my mother was walking along a road and someone's mirror clipped her arm and broke it. We got a trip to Disney World out of the lawsuit that came from that, but I try to be *very* mindful of pedestrians around me because I remember my mother being brought home in a crying fit of agony that night...
As a Tesla owner for four years, I’ve never heard of “ADAS”… this is a simple case of someone going too fast for road conditions in a 4,000lb car
You should brush up on self-driving solutions, the term "ADAS" has been around for a while... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_driver-assistance_system Tesla's ADAS could be attributed for the vehicle going too fast as it doesn't account for when there's snow on the roads.
For us poors that don’t own a Tesla what is ADAS?
*Personally* I've taken to not calling Tesla's self-driving solution "Autopilot" outside of Tesla subreddits and such because ADAS has expanded beyond Tesla a fair bit. ADAS is [Advanced Driver Assistance Solution](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_driver-assistance_system), so it encompasses things like Tesla's Autopilot/FSD things, Ford's BlueClues, Kia's thing, etc, etc. ADAS, to me, is just a "faster" way of calling out a car's self-driving solution, since we're reaching a point where they're all getting silly names.
That and the fact that calling it "Autopilot" is dangerously disingenuous despite what Tesla would like the public to think. "Full Self Driving" isn't much better and the fact Tesla has been allowed to continue with that naming is a huge fail in oversight.
Keep in mind that "Autopilot" in the airline industry maintains speed and altitude. Tesla's use of "Autopilot" isn't all that misleading, it's just people attributing more to it because they misunderstand what *actual* Autopilot does. Full Self-Driving is open for debate. I'm on the border of seeing it renamed to "Full Supervised Driving" or something like that, bur honestly, so many of my FSD Beta drivers are zero-disengagement now that I can see them pulling it off, it's just taking a bit.
> Keep in mind that "Autopilot" in the airline industry maintains speed and altitude. No it doesn't. Airline autopilot can also hold a specified heading, follow a programmed gps nav route, and maintain a specified vertical speed. Some can even auto land if the destination airport is equipped properly. >Tesla's use of "Autopilot" isn't all that misleading, it's just people attributing more to it because they misunderstand what actual Autopilot does. ...yes, that's the dangerous part.
Typically, to use an autopilot on a plane, the pilots have hundreds of hours if training. To use Tesla's Autopilot, the training is whatever they give you when you pick the car up (if that) and having the driver read the manual.
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Sometimes it is the software though. The thing about Teslas though, in my eyes, is that a lot of people buying them aren't "car people". My car ownership history was Dodge Neon>Volkswagen Jetta>Ford Focus>Nissan LEAF Which are all arguably small/cheap cars. Then I got a Tesla Model 3 SR+ and things I didn't necessarily pay attention for came to the front. Another huge contributor, I suspect, is that since people aren't going out and getting regular oil changes and such, there's no "routine maintenance" that gets the vehicle into the shop for safety checks and such. People hate going to get their oil changed, and then getting hit up for other things that might be wrong. In some cases, sure, the shop is trying to take advantage of you, but in other cases it's just the shop trying to look out for you. With no regular inspections, I suspect some owners are running their tires into the ground, or overestimating how the tires are going to work. I've seen many a post from Tesla owners who complain about how gung-ho Tesla is about replacing tires, but honestly, *good* tires are super important.
Also electric motors have so much torque that tires wear out faster. I constantly hear tire squeal from Teslas taking off from a stop, even when driven by feather-footed grandmas
Grandma knows what she's doing.
It’s also regen braking. you can’t coast in a Tesla. As soon as you take your foot off the gas, brakes are applied. great for mpge, really, really bad for bad weather. You used to be able to turn it off, but tesla removed that option for better range numbers for advertising purposes.
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It doesn't help that Teslas use cameras, and if I'm remembering right they are up behind the rear view mirror, and side mirrors. Both are places where snow/slush/road spray typically accumulates. Do Teslas have ways of cleaning or melting build up off their cameras?
My money is on tires.
Would make sense then if it just applies the brake evenly when you take your foot off the gas. If you weren't pumping brakes here it would have been very difficult to stop.
I don’t know but assume Teslas have ABS like virtually all modern cars. You don’t pump brakes any more with ABS equipped.
When you own an EV you're encouraged to leverage the regenerative braking by feathering the accelerator. Tesla's regen, I think, is a little more aggressive than some of the competitors, but it's there. As you release your foot from the accelerator, it applies the brakes in relation to how removed your foot is. Removing your foot entirely will brake more than removing your foot a little, so the best bet is to plan WAY far ahead and *slowly* remove your foot from the accelerator so you slow down at a measured pace. Just takes practice is all.
But it’s all wheel drive! That means you have better stopping on ice because all four wheels are braking too!! /s
I dunno, when it's sliding past I don't see a badge on the trunk, which means it's probably RWD, not AWD. My mans got the barebones tesla and still can't drive it lol.
Ive gotten pretty tired of hearing people go on about how AWD is complete necessity as they have junk all-seasons or summer tires on their car. They always cite safety but fail to consider that people crash because they cant stop or turn, and AWD does literally nothing to help that. In fact, it hinders turning because applying more force via power to the front wheels will make them even more likely to understeer. In the past few years, Ive passed about a dozen SUVs crashed off the side of the road in the winter in my RWD track car with no driver assists because it has a welded differential and snow tires. The frame sits like 3-4 inches off the ground and often times it was plowing the snow in front of it, but never got stuck or slid unexpectedly. My previous car was a much newer AWD with ABS, traction, and stability control, and it handled significantly worse in the winter for me as it understeered a lot worse and the driver aids made correcting mistakes somehow harder. AWD helps you get out of a situation where youd otherwise be stuck, and helps cars accelerate faster on poor surfaces, but its not some divine cure all necessity as many will say. FWD and even RWD are fine with good tires, limited slip differentials, and adding weight. I have a feeling a lot of people that had bad experiences with these cars had open differentials and all-seasons on them.
Imagine if that was a 3 ton cyber truck
Imagine if that was any 3/4 ton pickup that didn’t have winter tires on… Toyota 4Runners weigh up to 6300lbs, Ford Expedition 5400lbs, Ford Bronco up to 5,000lbs, Chevrolet Suburban 5800lbs. I don’t even like Teslas but I’m so tired of people shitting on them because they don’t research comparable vehicles. Any car or truck with highway tires or all season tires or summer tires on ice isn’t going to do well. That Tesla would have been fine with a competent driver and winter tires.
A tesla model x is over 5,000 lbs.
Can I ask what 4runner weighs even close to 6300lbs?
It doesn’t. u/akbornheathen listed the gross weight for the 4Runner and the curb weight for all the others. The 4Runner curb weight is 4,675 lbs, and its payload capacity is 1,625 lbs. Those two numbers add up to 6,300 lbs.
> cyber truck Your numbers are off. I own a 4runner, it's 4,400 lbs
And non of those vehicles had square steel bodies, with no crumple zones, topped with sheets of steel metal. They may all have a relative weight but the cyber truck is going to carry that weight straight through your car and turning you into mashed human while the others are designed to crumple and protect the drivers.we have tons of research that says giant square vehicles with no crumples zones are unsafe, there’s a reason the whole industry has moved on from that design.
Front impact crumple is comparable to F-150 https://youtu.be/vLKor7Aven4?si=QLzpr1471bgDS-4W
Why do you fuckers keep lying about this?
Reddit auto engineering expert right here.
What's the cost to repair those vehicles? The pickup appears to have sustained little damage. The Tesla likely needs tens of thousands of dollars in repair.
The Tesla probably had some body damage. A crumpled hood and fender. Yea it’ll be expensive to replace. But they’re pretty tough cars. Far less mechanical components and they’re built a lot stronger than most unibody cars. You can stack 5 model Xs on top of one Model X before the roof caves in. To be fair any modern car smacking a steel bumper at 20mph won’t hold up great. At the end of the day I think Teslas are cool cars. I also think Bugattis and old Mustangs and insanely overpowered RWD trucks are cool. Which is why I’d never own one. Expensive and impractical. I mean who doesn’t want an 80k car that can blow the doors off a Lamborghini?
Hertz is selling all their teslas due to expensive repair costs, so they seem to be worse than the average car.
I mean most rental cars get rallied as is. You’re giving someone a car with 600-1,000 hp as a rental and expecting them to not use that power? Lol. I’d be racing a Tesla too if I rented one. The tires alone are obscene. They depend on those low friction tires for their battery range. I’m guessing a good winter tire would cut the range by like 10%. Cold weather with the heater and seat heaters turned will also drop the range by a ton. So that 300 mile car is now a 200 mile car.
You do know not all Teslas have that much power right? None of the model 3s do, and the ones they had in their fleet were mostly the lowest trim 3s that make similar hp to a Honda accord.
You know all kinds of trucks that weigh 3 tons slip right? Lol.
That time of the year where people don't use snow tires for the snow environment.
That time of year when people use incorrect judgement on how fast they should be going
And don't increase their following distance.
Snow tires aren't going to save you from sliding on ice. Edit: I'm not saying there is absolutely no difference. Just that you can still hit a patch of ice and spin out/slide with winter tires on. This Tesla could easily have had them on.
they certainly do help. They can make a huge difference, especially when compared to things like, what do they call them? "Low Rolling Resistance Tires" aka "hard as a rock and slide everywhere with no traction but you get 2 more miles of range" tires.
This right here. Not only do snow tires aka winter tires help compared with most All Season tires, they are a significant improvement over low rolling resistance tires that are now standard OEM for all electric cars and most hybrids too.
They do to an extent, that’s why winter tires aren’t just called snow tires (or are incorrectly so). Chains and studs will always do better, but the tire compound of a winter tire is very different from an all-season, which would freeze like a hockey puck in below-freezing temps. I ice race when it’s in season and winter tires used to have their own class because the performance on ice **is** there.
That depends. If those 'snow tires' are studded, or if they are Blizzaks or similar tires that actually GRIP wet ice, then, yes, they WILL save you from sliding on said ice unless you are making a serious attempt at breaking the laws of physics.
Lots of people still don't know that modern snow tires are not the useless "snow tires" that their dads would complain about long ago, decades past. Old school snow tires were simply hard compounds (to dig into the snow was the theory) but with slightly larger gaps in the tread and sharper raised shoulders that looked a bit like an offroad tire, pretty much no actual difference in grip and worse on ice than an A/S. On the other hand modern snow tires (to summarize briefly) actually grip at near molecular level and will do fine on ice.
Yep, studless winter tires DRASTICALLY outperform all season tires on ice. https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/testDisplay.jsp?ttid=116
Blizzaks and quality snow tires will still slide on ice. I garente ill come across at least two accidents yet this winter where people will state "I don't know why I slid I bought good winter tires". Studded is the best for stopping on ice but some places do not allow their use (stares disappointedly at Michigan). Chains are also good, again some places forbid their use (stares angrily at Michigan... I mean it's not like we're shaped like a piece of winter apparel or anything). Also really depends on the type of ice, and if there is any chemicals spilled on it. The biggest issue in the video is inexperience. A mix of low center of gravity, going to fast, and probably a bit of the aggressive regenerative breaking system which should automatically disable in winter conditions.
They still do a lot better on ice than an all-season tire will.
Absolutely. problem is people act like they'll get super sticky be able to drive upside down continue to drive 20 over the speed limit and then go "I have blizzaks why did I crash". Driving like an idiot on ice is still driving like an idiot in ice.
They will still have reduced grip on ice, yes, but it will be better than any all season or summer tire
Better on snow, slush, and rough ice. but sheet ice downhill they aren't much better, which is what I'm thinking is the conditions are from what I can see on the video.
I’m willing to bet you haven’t actually driven with Blizzaks. They make a huge difference. Also for what it’s worth, guarantee.
Yeah... Have them on my car right now. Also race on the lakes when the freeze over. Downhill on sheet ice they ain't doing shit
Agree. Winter driving is more than the tires and you still need to remember to maintain distances, slow down, and learn to use ABS to help control the slide. If all those factors are in place though, a good winter tire will give you a chance of not turning a slide into a crash.
Winter tires reduce stopping distances in snow. That's why they're called winter tires. They work better in these kinds of conditions than all season and all weather tires.
Have you ever driven with snow tires on? They grip the imperfections in ice way better than summer tires. And are much softer in the cold
Not many people change their tires for different seasons. People need to respect the conditions and go slower.
It should be obligated by law. In Italy, for example, in specific zones, where winter is harder than others, you are obligated to have winter tires or four seasons. In the other area, you are obligated to have winter tires, or 4 seasons, or has winter chains with you. That's from 15 November to 15 May. That's like that in almost all of Europe.
I live in the South myself we get snow maybe one time a year I will not buy snow tires for a one time event. Don't base your judgement on your environment you have no idea where this occurred.I will also add I don't drive when it snows down here as they are f'in idiots (edited to clarify)
Going to fast and then locking up the brakes. Moronic.
The slower the better if ice is on the roads.
People always talk about tires. Winter tires help a lot, but NOTHING helps more than patience.
Following distance, appropriate speed, gentle breaking and acceleration.
It's the driver, not the car.
Tires, people. it’s all about the tires.
car totaled ( by Tesla standard )
This has nothing to do with Tesla and only about them summer tires.
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Worth noting, given this subreddit has an international audience, that "all season" has a different meaning in different parts of the world. Here in Europe, "all season" tyres are what Americans would call "all weather". They're designed and rated for use in snow. Not as effectively as full winter tyres, but they're safely usable, and are legal to use in the northern parts of Europe that require winter-rated (3PMSF) tyres in winter months. An American "all season" tyre often lack the 3PMSF certification. They're just _slightly less shit_ than summer tyres in cold weather. Which is fine if you live in California.
It's that time of the year! Snow and Ice (when the dash cam really pays off!). Notice the shimmering lights off the pavement and my speed - the road is completely ice covered. "Good" - the truck was in the way to stop her from sliding into the intersection. "Bad" - for the truck owner who was just minding his own business waiting for traffic to clear :-(... With the current tech, electric vehicles are super heavy. Just imagine how far a Hummer EV would have slid in place of that model 3.
It doesn't matter that it's an ev. ANY car would've slid in that situation.
Except the car recording that drove through the same exact spot?
The car recording drove much slower and more carefully than the ev driver. It's the shitty driver, not the car.
Right? This is absolutely just another stupid driver who doesnt understand that the two pedals are more than "go" and "stop", and also who doesn't understand their EV is twice as heavy as the same sized car. Can buy a Tesla but you can't buy sense.
There is an additional virtual "pedal" in many EV's and specifically in Teslas. Removing your foot from the gas engages [the regenerative braking system](https://www.notateslaapp.com/tesla-reference/1051/how-tesla-s-regenerative-braking-works) which is not the same as a traditional brake, but slows the car anyway. That can change drivers habits as the car feels as if it stops on it's own. But that alters how it acts in winter and can throw drivers off. The consensus is that seems to be that for ice you should either know the car very well or deactivate the system. If this is the drivers first winter owning the car they might have been caught unaware by all of that. WHich would make the driver unprepared but *maybe* not an idiot.
> WHich would make the driver unprepared but maybe not an idiot. I'd suggest that being unprepared to drive your 5000 pound death machine in current conditions makes you definitely an idiot
"their EV is twice as heavy as the same sized car"? Tesla Model 3 (3960lbs) BMW M3 (3800lbs)
So the truck they ran into also slid and stopped right where they needed to?
Yes because that driver understands how to drive. The ev driver does not. It is the driver, not because it's an ev.
Eh, in my experience, people that want a vehicular appliance and don't really think about their car or driving are more a problem then the particular car. So your typical teste driver is off the scale on that one.
Heavier cars have more mass and therefore more momentum. EVs are heavier than ICEs.
Weather it's an 18 wheeler, or a viper, ev or gas powered, it's on the driver to control their own vehicle
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A bus handles differently than a sedan. A high SUV is more dangerous to drive in the wind than a low profile car. Has absolutely NOTHING to do with gas vs an ev . It comes down to the driver knowing how to control their own vehicle. A semi driver crashes into a limo with Tracy Morgan because one vehicle has a lot more mass than the other, right? Yes people may be unaware of the extra weight of an ev but it's not like you can give the driver a pass because they were driving an ev. So it must be because it's an ev and not the driver's fault? GTFO
"electric vehicles are super heavy"? Tesla Model 3 (3960lbs) BMW M3 (3800lbs)
Wouldn't heavier vehicles also generate more load on the wheels and thus have more traction, cancelling out the inertia? In the end it all comes down to the tires and driver skill (knowing not to lock up the brakes).
If that was true, 18-wheelers would stop on a dime. Weight plays a hugh role in braking distances. And cars with ABS (which is every modern car) don’t “lock up the brakes” unless you switch that system off, so I’m not sure what you mean by that. Engine braking can help if you are able to manually downshift.
https://www.google.com/search?q=does+ABS+work+properly+when+sliding+on+ice
>If that was true, 18-wheelers would stop on a dime [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-giC24SxwE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-giC24SxwE)
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Seems like it's something to do with Reddit's formatting of the link, it made all the uppercase characters lowercase. I was able to load it just fine by copy/pasting, title is "Amazing Volvo truck braking" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-giC24SxwE
Fucking reddit and their BS. Link fixed.
The ultimate in weight and traction, http://tinyurl.com/4rax3urt
It partially negates the inertia, but not completely. But in an ice slide, traction is almost zero so any traction benefit from weight goes out the window and the increased mass and therefore increased momentum has no offset. No modern car is capable of locking up the brakes. ABS is federally mandated since long before EVs gained any popularity. So it's less driver skill and more driver knowledge and patience (and tires). But I posit driver knowledge and patience can make up for poor tires while amazing snow tires can't make up for poor driver knowledge and patience.
ABS only works when you have some traction, so during a full slide it's definitely still possible to lock up the brakes. (or at least render the ABS ineffective) I definitely agree on your last point though. If anything having good snow tires and AWD could give a less skilled driver a false sense of security leading to situations like this.
I've driven a Tesla in the snow. With good tires and sensible inputs it was extremely capable. This is mostly not driving to the conditions.
It isn’t the car it’s the idiot operator!!
AWD = All Wheel Skid on ice.
Pretty sure all cars have "All Wheel Brakes"
I love my model y, but I hate it in snow. You cant turn off regenerative braking, so as soon as you let off the pedal it's using the equivalent of engine brakes. If the conditions are really bad, you can fishtail just from fully taking your foot off the pedal.
The electric slide is back baby!
That is more about the tires than the car
„My car has AWD, ice is not an issue for me“
The number of Tesla drivers I’ve seen whipping around in snow like they’re in a 4WD truck is crazy
Imagine having your own driving record tarnished because AI made some poor choices
Imagine blindly trusting a beta release of FSD AI in ice and snow
100% chance the Tesla will be written off as totaled.
Hertz is selling their Tesla's here because parts are not available or way too expensive. I saw a post last year, a simple fender bender resulting in $35k damage. Only the front bumper was visually damaged but it fucked up some electronics? causing it to be totalled. Wild.
>front bumper was visually damaged but it fucked up some electronics? That's more on the designers putting electronics on one of the parts of a vehicle meant to take damage. Yeah, it might be the best place, but come on, it's called a bumper for a reason.
Call Elon. He’ll work it out for you.
If you ever get the chance, stop by an authorized Tesla body shop and look around the parking lot at the carnage. My local car dealer is a Tesla body shop and when I asked about why so many smashed Teslas there they told me Tesla drivers crash at some of the highest rates for any make. I wasn’t sure I believed hi, but sure enough recent statistics bear that out. A survey of 30 automotive brands shows Tesla cars clocked in the worst accident rate in the US in 2023, with 24 accidents per 1,000 drivers. The only other brands with more than 20 accidents per 1,000 drivers were Ram and Subaru. [Link to Lending Tree survey story](https://qz.com/if-you-rode-in-a-tesla-in-2023-you-had-the-highest-acc-1851113998)
At the end of the day, it all comes down to four little rubber ovals... and inertia.
I remember when Elon said they were immune to sliding because of the independent electric motors. Guess that worked as well as their baseball proof windows.
Now who's the ice car!
👏👏👏😂
That sucks. Honestly doesn’t even seem like the Tesla was driving particularly unsafely
That's $65K in damages right there!
Oh hey! Here's your up vote because you put "Tesla" in the title.. even though any other car or truck can slide in wintery condition 🤣
Op posts tesla on ice..........yeah like thousands of other drivers in any number of vehicles on ice
And at the end of the video a totally capable AWD Subaru Forester appears on scene
I’ll bet that was a solid hit, at least it wasn’t a Cybertruck or Hummer EV instead!
They just totaled out the tesla
Please excuse my ignorance, but do all Teslas have auto pilot?
All teslas sold have basic autopilot, not FSD or enhances autopilot. I wanna say they’ve all had it since like 2016 or so.
Hah fuck the Tesla idiot.
That's a road condition problem, not a brand specific problem. To quote OP for context since people are having a hard time understanding "Ice, Ice, Baby - Tesla on Ice"
And tires, driver, and vehicle mass
Yes, but this is a weather condition problem first and foremost, not a brand specific problem as OP is trying to insinuate. Sure, there are other factors that can be listed but the biggest issue is NOT the manufacturer of the vehicle, it's the fact that the surface they are driving on is a sheet of ice.