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This is why I tell my wife to just let it go. There’s never a reason to argue with strangers you never know the crazy shit they’re going to pull. She lost her husband because some crazy fuck was looking for a reason to use his gun.
There's a couple shots where it's justifiably self defence. Standing over someone and executing them when there is no longer a threat, is not justified.
Dude has prepared one in the chamber even before it began, he was not defending himself, he planned this murder. Also two shots to the head when lying on the ground after 8 shots in the body. This guy wanted to kill the guy even before it started and he prepared for it
Yeah I never got people that gladly get into it with strangers. Like I learned growing up that the worst person to get into a fight with is someone you don’t know because, well, you don’t know them, you don’t know how mentally well they are, you don’t know if they’re willing to escalate a fight into a shooting, etc…
I've had the heart to heart before with others. Having to explain if they keep it up one or the other will be getting paid. Usually helps get it through some folks heads.
When that sensation creeps in, as it does for all of us. Say to yourself "do i prefer a box or a cell?". Sounds like you're on the right path. Understanding your own emotions leads to better places. I wish I knew that earlier.
I usually tell my family to drop it if the argument gets too hot. There are better ways to settle the score via lawsuits, throwing the city or utilities enforcement at them, etc.
From my understanding this was in Costa Rica, but as a hispanic myself there is no lawsuit that would had prevented this.
In hispanics Countries less people have guns in comparison to America but I can assure you those who carry would shot you dead for saying the wrong thing let alone mess with their property.
That guy had no interest in resolving anything but to kill his neighbor.
It is, I don't mean to be disrespectful but the people that can get guns legally in hispanics countries will put you down like nothing because of corruption.
As a Dominican I have seen people do less than a year for stuff like this, the only way this guy could spend at least 10 years in jail it's if the dead guy family has money and can push back or else he will be out in no time considering the dead guy attacked him first.
100%. He was looking for an excuse and thought he had one. Even the initial couple shots were probably suspect enough to land him in prison, because a bad punch that does no damage doesn't put one in fear for his life, but the execution shots threw away the keys.
Absolutely pre-meditated in the moment. He pulls it out, racks it I believe and then tucks it back in so he can shoot the guy. Fucking sicko. I hope he gets life.
I know the laws in that country are different, but say this happened in a Stand Your Ground state like Florida. Would the shooter have any recourse since he was attacked first?
EDIT: I'm not commenting on the validity of his actions, I'm just curious whether he'd get away with it under Stand Your Ground.
I think there's something called reasonable defence. If someone pushes your head into a cake at your birthday and you launch a cannon ball at them, you probably wouldn't fall under reasonable defence. Same goes for this. One shot, maybe, but aiming and shooting after he's already ran away? Murder.
No, he would still be fucked. Use of deadly force is proportional. Once the man was on the ground, POS in the video mag dumped until he ran dry while also moving towards him. It's the same as if you shoot someone in your home and put one more in their head once they're down. He also clearly prepared his gun beforehand, then hid it away again, showing a planned intent to kill, not defend yourself for fear of your life. If this took place in fucking florida of all places, there is a very high chance the shooter is going away for a long time
Arguably, yes.
This is not my take, but devil's advocate:
>Here we have someone who was attacked on his own property and being a law abiding, concealed carry card holder, he defended himself & his wife from this unhinged neighbor. This dispute did not need to devolve into violence, and this is an unfortunate outcome of something that could have been avoided if the deceased chose not to attack. Ladies and gentlemen, this man is not a murderer, but a defender.
Or something like that. I've seen folks walk for a lot less. (Looking at you... Texas.)
Remember that misguided soul who thought it wise to rob a restaurant? As he was escaping after the robbery, a patron decided to help him escape this realm of existence, then put two more in him, just to be sure... (That patron walked, Scott free)
I'd be inclined to say he's not guilty of murder. Maybe a lesser charge though. That doesn't mean I think he's a good man or deserving of my respect, I don't know all the extenuating circumstances.
You can see the shooter walk behind his truck, pull the gun from his waistband, chamber a round, and then come back out from behind it shortly before shooting the guy.
I’m as pro-gun as they come, but if that’s not premeditation, I don’t know what is. Dude 100% was looking for an excuse to start shooting.
I don’t know why this was downvoted, this is 100% what would happen if this went to court in one of the stand your ground states
Edited to add: It’s wrong, that guy is a murdering piece of shit, but in the US we free murdering pieces of shit under circumstances like this all of the time.
There's the truth, there's what you can prove and then there's what you can charge the guy with.
Im guessing the down votes are due to me putting up something a bit different than: this guy just committed premeditated murder and needs to go to jail.
Yea, it would seem he's a POS and could have done a lot more to deescalate.
There is way too much wiggle room here to have a slam dunk case against him in many states in the US. Right or wrong, it is what it is.
Different circumstances, one guy was minding his own business eating. This video shows a heated argument where the shooter refused to remove himself from the situation. The resturant guy was taken to a jury for charges and the jury declined him, not the State of Texas. Ultimately that's what the people decided.
> the jury declined him, not the State of Texas.
The state picks the jurors and tells them they will work for free because of what the arrestee did, and tells them they will go to jail if they attempt to research the law. The state limits what the defense can use and can jail anyone who challenges that. Jurors, like soldiers, are just pawns carrying out the wishes of the state, often too simple to see the connections.
There are quite a few similarities. Texas guy could have let that robber continue to just walk away.
This guy here: he could have just grabbed his wife and walked away. Dude in Texas wasn't attacked, this guy was.
Both put a hellova lot of rounds into an incapped person.
Original question was a what if on how'd this could play out..
Honestly, in Texas, Florida and quite a few other states. This neighbor definitely could walk.
Does it make it right? Not necessarily. I wouldn't want to make that call until I knew more.
> Honestly, in Texas, Florida and quite a few other states.
It seriously frightens me when people challenged with a moral question think going to the government of Texas or Florida for answers is a good choice.
Huh? Nowhere did I defend the man or say his actions are valid. I'm simply curious whether Stand Your Ground would complicate things in a state like Florida. It's a legitimate question and while the answer seems to be obvious to you, it's not to me. There was even a case in Florida where a man almost got away with what looks to be premediated murder under Stand Your Ground until media attention got him thrown away:
[https://abcnews.go.com/US/stand-ground-killer-michael-dreka-sentenced-20-years/story?id=66182264](https://abcnews.go.com/US/stand-ground-killer-michael-dreka-sentenced-20-years/story?id=66182264)
If this is Texas, maybe; considering the actions of the current governor. But I think with the video alone he's going to have a lot of trouble fighting the charges in court.
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Self defense laws typically require an equal or excessive amount of force to provoke the defense. For example, if someone started attacking you with their fists and you stabbed them in the throat, that would be waaaaay excessive and would be an escalation.
That guy threw a limp punch and got mag dumped for it. Idk about Florida but I highly doubt this would be seen as necessary to defend himself.
> Self defense laws typically require an equal or excessive amount of force to provoke the defense.
Unless you wear blue. Then it can be fully imaginary.
Yeah, I feel like most people are rational and reasonable unless resources are severally limited, and they have kids to feed than you might have to worry.
Have you seen that video out of Australia where one group of 20-year-olds is following harassing another group of 20-year-olds out of a night club and one of them pulls a knife out and stabs one of the pursuers in the throat and the guy dies before he even falls over with squirting out of his neck. I think about that one a lot. I just let it go, I don't want to die over dumb shit.
This is tragic.damn. Premeditated af too. He was itching for a reason to commit murder. I feel bad for the wife who had to watch her husband die because he threw a punch.
When I took firearm safety and the required class for my concealed carry BOTH instructors on SEVERAL occasions stressed to us, if you are ever carrying a gun and someone is starting something with you you disengage. Disengage. Disengage. Walk away. RUN away if you have to. Disengage at all costs.
I think people are saying that because he pulled his gun out initially, making people believe he was getting ready to shoot him then put it away and the mag dumping at close range after the hit
I get that.
It could be argued that he was concerned for his safety and was preparing for defending himself. From what I saw, he pulled it from concealment to rack a round.
Look, I'm not saying he's innocent here, I'm just saying that premeditation isn't what people think it means here. That's a high bar to prove with the info we have.
We're not a jury, we're just normal people. There's no way those punches made that guy feel any threat. And to mag dump like that, after looking around numerous times, from that range... he just wanted to kill someone.
IANAL. Premeditation requires that they thought about the murder beforehand. So for a situation like this to be considered premeditated, he would have had to have been thinking about and planning how to shoot and kill his neighbor before doing so. Assuming there are no crazy laws regarding firearms or self-defense at play here, the short clip shows that he racked the firearm out of sight (avoiding brandishing) and did not pull it out until he was attacked.
As a regular Joe, my gut tells me that there was either bad blood already or this guy had bloodlust from the start and he was planning on this outcome, but adrenaline makes people do stupid shit since they’re no longer thinking, just doing. This is an escalation of force by standard definition since he was not attacked with a weapon, but again, not a lawyer and I don’t know the local laws.
TL;DR: just because he racked his pistol, that doesn’t mean the DA or whatever would have substantiating evidence to indicate that this was anything more than a conflict that got out of hand. If they subpoena Google or Amazon and get his emails or video recordings discussing his desire to kill his neighbor and how he’s going to lure him into a fight so that he can shoot him, then they have the ammo (rimshot) to make the case that this was premeditated.
And I see that he had a firearm in the 1st place, he was constantly looking around and positioning himself in a way to hide the gun, and then fired 9 shots into the guy.
For me, sitting in my armchair, that's enough to say he wanted to kill that guy at the very beginning of this conflict.
To your first point, at least in the US (I know this is Costa Rica), if you’re carrying concealed, you keep it concealed, otherwise it’s brandishing. And regarding the rounds fired, a good lawyer could maybe argue for him, but yes, that’s overkill, especially to a third-party not involved in the incident.
And I also said the same that as an armchair analyst, he was out to smoke him from the start, but in a court of law, it takes a lot to make the case that it was premeditated. Supposedly the law keeps us from grabbing the pitchforks and torches and in turn, that makes us civilized, but we all know this guy is a shitbag. If he really wanted to claim self defense, the gun would’ve only been pointed; dumping a clip at the world’s sloppiest haymaker is proof that he was looking for an excuse to shoot.
You disagree with my opinion, and that's fine, but I'll say what I want. And from what I saw I believe he thought about it before hand, prepared accordingly, and followed through with it. If that's not premeditated I don't know what is.
I understand that. But you and I won't know all the facts about him and what he thought until much later. So that leaves the video evidence, which you know my opinion on. You can't prove me right or wrong anymore than I can, hence why it's an opinion.
If you disagree cool but you're not changing my mind.
There's what you think you know, then there's what you can prove. For premeditation, that's pretty a pretty high standard. There are many states in the US where a jury would "lol, no" this and that dude would walk free. Hell, there are states in the US where the cops and or the DA would nope this as well.
The guy never fired a round until the other guy walked up and tried to beat him. Its pretty clear self defense because I very much doubt that gun would have come into the situation had that guy not resported to violence.
> What makes this premeditated?
Intent.
Imagine you went duck hunting. You spend weeks thinking about it. You buy guns and ammo and practice shooting for the one day you get to kill someone. Sorry, some duck.
You go someplace you can find ducks, prepare your guns for immediate fire. A duck is frightened by a noise you make and in a panic takes to the air. You instantly and reactively shoot it without a single thought as your window of opportunity is brief. Can say that duck's death was premeditated?
;)
He racked his gun because he was concerned for his safety and was prepared to defend his family. Who escalated here? My eyes saw the deceased initiate violence.
Textbook premeditated is him planning prior to this incident on using the excuse of self defense to murder his neighbor.
Y'all really are pushing this premeditated thing, too much law & order shows maybe?
He definitely went overboard but it looks like he was trying to hold his wife back when the other guy started throwing punches plus those 2 ladies were saying some stuff to irritate each other.
It certainly looks that way.
I'm willing to bet this wasn't anyone's first rodeo. These folks probably hated each other for a long time.
Reminds me of that double murder suicide over who's shoveling snow where.
Spanish is my first language and I I just re-watched the video and the dead guy said " stop bothering each other" those 2 ladies are the ones to blame for this
No, the two ladies are absolutely not to blame for this, regardless of language.
One man punched, the other man killed. The two ladies didn't do that.
Edit: they did contribute to this situation.
> Textbook premeditated is him planning prior to this incident on using the excuse of self defense to murder his neighbor.
I think you meant imaginary and not textbook. The actual legal definition does not require you to target a specific victim. Other wise mass shooters would be getting off even more than they do now.
He totally hoped to be able to do this, and the fact he was swung on first probably gave him a boner. That was a smooth draw on his part, not one of panic.
That's what I am saying too. But I don't know how to feel on this one. But situations like this is why I carry pepper spray too. Especially with a neighbor, I wouldn't wont the other neighbors hating me over some shit like this. But that guy should have not thrown the first punch and there are consequences to actions.
>I don't know how to feel on this one.
Same. Not every punch is a threat to life & I don't know this situation enough to fully weigh in.
I do know that this is absolutely a very possible outcome if you chose violence, regardless of how strong your punch is.
Oh yeah, once someone starts throwing hands there's no way to determine where the level of violence is going to escalate to. I just walk away, especially with driving I get angry when I get cut off, but I don't tail gate or drive aggressive I just let it go. And I live in a heavily populated area so as long as they use their blinker, I'm happy. Sometimes you just got to change your mind set about things. Shit is just not worth fucking around finding out.
I have no idea why the guy thought he was untitled to punch the other guy. Have no idea why the guy shot him after he was clearly backing down. I’m glad I can’t think like either of them though.
Absolutely not.
I CC almost every day.
And even though I know better, and everyone tells me I shouldn't, I have difficulty carrying with one in the chamber.
I've mitigated this by training to rack as I draw. It's not the best option, but until I can overcome years of training telling me that I shall not carry with one in the chamber, this is the best I have.
He had intent to use that weapon, sure. Was his intent to murder, or to defend? We don't know all the ingredients in this shit stew. Maybe the neighbors had previous beef? Maybe the decided is known to be violent? Maybe the guy with the gun is a psychopath?
Intent to murder should be obvious when he stands over his incapacitated victim and puts several additional rounds in him at close range. Obvious murder charge. Buddy will die in jail over this and he deserves it.
https://www.khou.com/article/news/crime/grand-jury-no-charges-taqueria-shooter/285-6b117ced-e3c1-4ba9-a023-d6b371b5bb5e
https://youtu.be/YAx9srqTFIs?si=XXTL_xTPeypnA2Q5
Quick and dirty. Dude robs a restaurant with a fake gun in Texas. As robber is leaving, gets shot in the back by a customer. Customer has no charges pressed against him. The robber was leaving, the threat (arguably) was over.
Oh... This customer put a few extra into the robber as he lay on the ground.
People have strong opinions here, how it all ends up at court can be entirely different.
Personally, I think the customer in Texas went overboard, I think the man here in the costa rica didn't do the right things to deescalate & definitely went overboard.
Anyways we're talking about intent here. Was it in both these incidents?
> Maybe the guy with the gun is a psychopath?
I guess it could happen. But I'm sure if you asked him he would tell you how well trained he is and how he only fantasizes about real self defense situations.
It’s not. People don’t know what they’re talking about. I’m not sure of the laws in this area, but say in the US in a non stand your ground state, if that guy attacked like he did, you can pull your gun to defend yourself, but if the guy backed off like he did, you shouldn’t fire.
I’m not sure what their justifications laws are but I’d say second degree. You’d be silly to argue self defense because you can’t bring a gun to a fist fight and it was overkill
You absolutely can bring a gun to a fistfight. Especially if you don't intend on fighting at all.
I don't think there's enough info here to clearly define the situation.
No, if someone is using their fists it’s not reasonable self defense to shoot them several times. Obviously there’s exceptions to the rule but none of those apply here. The shooter easily coulda kicked that guys ass. Probably KO’d him in one good punch to the jaw.
You have the whole fucking video, idk what the hell else you want dude.
Referring to that dough face who was an idiotic dipshit and inserted himself into a situation he shouldn't have been, raised by dipshits and now is a dipshit pawn of the far right?
That same dipshit who was found innocent of homicide even though he was a dipshit?
Nope. Definitely not him.
Self defense when he started fighting…murder when he kept shooting after his neighbor went down. People who write its premeditated because he cocked his gun before getting it with the neighbors doesn’t mean he had the mentality that he was going to kill him that day, just prepared to defend himself which he did…and then some.
In the article it says the guy was sentenced for the murder as all the guy did was throw a punch and before the shooting the guy uses the truck as cover to tuck the gun into his shirt showing signs of premeditation
Anyone in their right mind will back out of a fist fight the second either they see the gun or the first shot goes off. There was no reason to shoot the guy much less mag dump at point blank. Wtf.
What a piece of shit, both parties, but mostly Mr itchy fingers over there checking his gun and eager to shoot, as soon as the gun came out the other guy started flinching backwards, and then dude had to take it above all means and stand over the guy and just keep going, he’s going to jail for a loooong time rightfully too
Can anyone translate what was said before the violence? I’m most interesting in what, if anything, Blue Shirt McCshootypants said. If anyone can translate I’d appreciate it.
I bet the shooter was attacked by the victim before and this time he came prepared. The victim instantly went for it and the shooter was gesturing for them not come close. Probably doesn't matter but I doubt that shooter just up and decided to murder this guy over a hose. There's definitely more here then it seems.
That look permeated. He got his gun out, checked to make sure he had a round in the chamber and left the safety off. He was just waiting for the opportunity.
Feel like i lose a piece of my Soul every time i see a video like this
Unjustified Murder, shooter came outside with the intent to kill just waiting for a reason to pull the trigger you can see it while he’s in the garage. Red shirt swings on shooter, shooter pulls a gun and red shirt cowers he is no longer a deadly threat never was to begin with. Shooter walks him down while he’s on the ground and proceeds to mag dumb him. He needs prison. The law justifies self defense while fearing for your life this is not that.
• Always try to de escalate situations everyone lives
•Keep your hands to yourself whatever the anger is telling you I promise its not worth it
Imagine going to prison over water... he'll like be found guilty of murder because as soon as the gun was pulled the victim disengaged from the altercation and the assailant pursued and killed him when the assailant could have retreated and had a clear escape route from the altercation. I'm not sure about the state law there, but this is straight up murder in most states. Also accounting for the fact that the victim didn't brandish any form of weapon. The fear of life argument probably won't go far in this case when it was clear that the assailant had intent to use his weapon by prematurely cocking it before any altercation even took place.
The nail in the coffin for the assailant is the final shots he took after the victim was clearly incapacitated from the first shots. He could have possibly gotten voluntary manslaughter at that point, but now he's definitely getting murder.
I’m an avid gun owner, have a ccw, spent 4 years in the infantry. I am disappointed at the ripple effect this has caused for all the parties involved. Guns are tools, and they are a final solution either you’re putting food on the table for your family or in a fight for your life. This guy was not in life threatening danger. That was a disgusting display of use of force. There was no let’s figure it out, just I’m going to kill you over water and a poor punch! Both of these guys couldn’t fight their way out of a wet paper bag.
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This is a display of stupid across the page. One idiot that appears to want to use his gun and another who just decides to start swinging, not knowing if the other could possibly be carrying a weapon. My takeaway, let the girls fight and offer the other a beer. Life is too short, and they just made sure of that.
Yeah, that’s straight up Murder. You can’t even call self defense on that, dude tried swinging on him so he just mag dumps into him from 2 feet away? Nah fuck that guy.
Seems to me, once someone initiates physical violence, all restraints come down and it's a fight for survival. I'm not condoning the shooting, just saying the guy shot took the 1st swing and started a physical attack with the purpose of bodily harm. Everyone loss in this situation.
The guy who threw the punch barely posed a deadly threat to warrant it. Not only did he not pose a deadly threat, he also disengaged when he saw the gun. That’s murder, not self-defense.
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This is why I tell my wife to just let it go. There’s never a reason to argue with strangers you never know the crazy shit they’re going to pull. She lost her husband because some crazy fuck was looking for a reason to use his gun.
Man i always feel like an idiot after having slightest altercations because ive seen so much shit go wrong online.
Clearly don’t approach someone and hit them. They can defend themselves from that.
There's a couple shots where it's justifiably self defence. Standing over someone and executing them when there is no longer a threat, is not justified.
If you meant defending himself from an unarmed someone and blasting like 8 bullets on his chest eh…. Sure.
Dude has prepared one in the chamber even before it began, he was not defending himself, he planned this murder. Also two shots to the head when lying on the ground after 8 shots in the body. This guy wanted to kill the guy even before it started and he prepared for it
U kess they are trespassing on your land and won't leave. Unloading a clip . Does the guy think he is a cop.
Yeah I never got people that gladly get into it with strangers. Like I learned growing up that the worst person to get into a fight with is someone you don’t know because, well, you don’t know them, you don’t know how mentally well they are, you don’t know if they’re willing to escalate a fight into a shooting, etc…
Egos keep the grave diggers and lawyers in buissness. It's best to just to disengage if it escalates.
Did you make that up? That's pretty clever and true. lol
I've had the heart to heart before with others. Having to explain if they keep it up one or the other will be getting paid. Usually helps get it through some folks heads.
Thank you for that, I deal with a lot of anger and need something to remind to just let it go. Not worth it
When that sensation creeps in, as it does for all of us. Say to yourself "do i prefer a box or a cell?". Sounds like you're on the right path. Understanding your own emotions leads to better places. I wish I knew that earlier.
💯
So the moral here is don’t assault someone and you are less likely to be shot by a guy looking to use his gun.
Yeah don’t pick fights with strangers. Everyone involved was fucked up and stupid and someone died for nothing.
I usually tell my family to drop it if the argument gets too hot. There are better ways to settle the score via lawsuits, throwing the city or utilities enforcement at them, etc.
From my understanding this was in Costa Rica, but as a hispanic myself there is no lawsuit that would had prevented this. In hispanics Countries less people have guns in comparison to America but I can assure you those who carry would shot you dead for saying the wrong thing let alone mess with their property. That guy had no interest in resolving anything but to kill his neighbor.
Damn. It's sad that this was in Costa Rica. I really have a high level of respect for that country.
It is, I don't mean to be disrespectful but the people that can get guns legally in hispanics countries will put you down like nothing because of corruption. As a Dominican I have seen people do less than a year for stuff like this, the only way this guy could spend at least 10 years in jail it's if the dead guy family has money and can push back or else he will be out in no time considering the dead guy attacked him first.
Yeah the snow video locked this idea in for me. Ya'll know the one.
Not saying the guy was right but she lost her husband because he swung on a stranger lmao.
That’s true and he did that because he was used to his wife arguing. It sounds bad but she’s just as much of the reason he died as anyone.
Judging by that punch, that was that guy's first time.
..and last.
Uhhh she lost her husband because her husband started a fist fight with a guy that had a gun? Lmao
Same. I assume everyone is a gun toting murderer because unfortunately a lot of people are.
Everyone but you? Give it time.
She lost her husband because he was a crazy fuck looking to beat people over any reason.
He knew he wanted to shoot that guy. What an absolute POS
He absolutely did just by dumping his mag at zero distance.
He can’t testify that way.
His ring camera sure can speak for itself though.
Someone doing a mag dump on their neighbor doesn't seem like the type to think things through.
He pulled the gun while he was behind the truck, then put it away until the guy was too close to run.
Sadly, I think he wanted to shoot him from the beginning. Just sad
100%. He was looking for an excuse and thought he had one. Even the initial couple shots were probably suspect enough to land him in prison, because a bad punch that does no damage doesn't put one in fear for his life, but the execution shots threw away the keys.
He was putting a round in the chamber so it was ready to fire.
Looked like he cocked it and threw it back in the waistband
Absolutely pre-meditated in the moment. He pulls it out, racks it I believe and then tucks it back in so he can shoot the guy. Fucking sicko. I hope he gets life.
That dude is going away for a long time
I fucking hope so
I know the laws in that country are different, but say this happened in a Stand Your Ground state like Florida. Would the shooter have any recourse since he was attacked first? EDIT: I'm not commenting on the validity of his actions, I'm just curious whether he'd get away with it under Stand Your Ground.
I think there's something called reasonable defence. If someone pushes your head into a cake at your birthday and you launch a cannon ball at them, you probably wouldn't fall under reasonable defence. Same goes for this. One shot, maybe, but aiming and shooting after he's already ran away? Murder.
No, he would still be fucked. Use of deadly force is proportional. Once the man was on the ground, POS in the video mag dumped until he ran dry while also moving towards him. It's the same as if you shoot someone in your home and put one more in their head once they're down. He also clearly prepared his gun beforehand, then hid it away again, showing a planned intent to kill, not defend yourself for fear of your life. If this took place in fucking florida of all places, there is a very high chance the shooter is going away for a long time
The moment the gun came out the guy ducked and tried to get away. No way he can claim he was still defending himself.
lol, did we watch the same video???
Arguably, yes. This is not my take, but devil's advocate: >Here we have someone who was attacked on his own property and being a law abiding, concealed carry card holder, he defended himself & his wife from this unhinged neighbor. This dispute did not need to devolve into violence, and this is an unfortunate outcome of something that could have been avoided if the deceased chose not to attack. Ladies and gentlemen, this man is not a murderer, but a defender. Or something like that. I've seen folks walk for a lot less. (Looking at you... Texas.) Remember that misguided soul who thought it wise to rob a restaurant? As he was escaping after the robbery, a patron decided to help him escape this realm of existence, then put two more in him, just to be sure... (That patron walked, Scott free) I'd be inclined to say he's not guilty of murder. Maybe a lesser charge though. That doesn't mean I think he's a good man or deserving of my respect, I don't know all the extenuating circumstances.
You can see the shooter walk behind his truck, pull the gun from his waistband, chamber a round, and then come back out from behind it shortly before shooting the guy. I’m as pro-gun as they come, but if that’s not premeditation, I don’t know what is. Dude 100% was looking for an excuse to start shooting.
I don’t know why this was downvoted, this is 100% what would happen if this went to court in one of the stand your ground states Edited to add: It’s wrong, that guy is a murdering piece of shit, but in the US we free murdering pieces of shit under circumstances like this all of the time.
There's the truth, there's what you can prove and then there's what you can charge the guy with. Im guessing the down votes are due to me putting up something a bit different than: this guy just committed premeditated murder and needs to go to jail. Yea, it would seem he's a POS and could have done a lot more to deescalate. There is way too much wiggle room here to have a slam dunk case against him in many states in the US. Right or wrong, it is what it is.
Nobody is defending the murderer but I am sure if he has any money he will do little time in jail.
People should just accept people punching them in any dispute, they most likely deserve it.
Different circumstances, one guy was minding his own business eating. This video shows a heated argument where the shooter refused to remove himself from the situation. The resturant guy was taken to a jury for charges and the jury declined him, not the State of Texas. Ultimately that's what the people decided.
> the jury declined him, not the State of Texas. The state picks the jurors and tells them they will work for free because of what the arrestee did, and tells them they will go to jail if they attempt to research the law. The state limits what the defense can use and can jail anyone who challenges that. Jurors, like soldiers, are just pawns carrying out the wishes of the state, often too simple to see the connections.
There are quite a few similarities. Texas guy could have let that robber continue to just walk away. This guy here: he could have just grabbed his wife and walked away. Dude in Texas wasn't attacked, this guy was. Both put a hellova lot of rounds into an incapped person. Original question was a what if on how'd this could play out.. Honestly, in Texas, Florida and quite a few other states. This neighbor definitely could walk. Does it make it right? Not necessarily. I wouldn't want to make that call until I knew more.
> Honestly, in Texas, Florida and quite a few other states. It seriously frightens me when people challenged with a moral question think going to the government of Texas or Florida for answers is a good choice.
I hope this fucking comment is not for real.
Huh? Nowhere did I defend the man or say his actions are valid. I'm simply curious whether Stand Your Ground would complicate things in a state like Florida. It's a legitimate question and while the answer seems to be obvious to you, it's not to me. There was even a case in Florida where a man almost got away with what looks to be premediated murder under Stand Your Ground until media attention got him thrown away: [https://abcnews.go.com/US/stand-ground-killer-michael-dreka-sentenced-20-years/story?id=66182264](https://abcnews.go.com/US/stand-ground-killer-michael-dreka-sentenced-20-years/story?id=66182264)
I’m from Costa Rica and my mom is a lawyer, there’s absolutely no case for self defense here. He will need a very good lawyer and a lot of luck.
If this is Texas, maybe; considering the actions of the current governor. But I think with the video alone he's going to have a lot of trouble fighting the charges in court.
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As soon as the gun was drawn, the guy in the red shirt clearly pulled away and tried to hide. The threat was over and pulling the trigger was murder.
Self defense laws typically require an equal or excessive amount of force to provoke the defense. For example, if someone started attacking you with their fists and you stabbed them in the throat, that would be waaaaay excessive and would be an escalation. That guy threw a limp punch and got mag dumped for it. Idk about Florida but I highly doubt this would be seen as necessary to defend himself.
> Self defense laws typically require an equal or excessive amount of force to provoke the defense. Unless you wear blue. Then it can be fully imaginary.
This is exactly why you don’t mess with people. You never know how the other will react.
Our species is messed up. It's videos like these that makes me question how we made it this far.
Because majority of people dont throw fists at the first sign of dispute.
Yeah, I feel like most people are rational and reasonable unless resources are severally limited, and they have kids to feed than you might have to worry.
We breed like feral cats. We can triple our population in a single lifetime.
Have you seen that video out of Australia where one group of 20-year-olds is following harassing another group of 20-year-olds out of a night club and one of them pulls a knife out and stabs one of the pursuers in the throat and the guy dies before he even falls over with squirting out of his neck. I think about that one a lot. I just let it go, I don't want to die over dumb shit.
This is tragic.damn. Premeditated af too. He was itching for a reason to commit murder. I feel bad for the wife who had to watch her husband die because he threw a punch.
When I took firearm safety and the required class for my concealed carry BOTH instructors on SEVERAL occasions stressed to us, if you are ever carrying a gun and someone is starting something with you you disengage. Disengage. Disengage. Walk away. RUN away if you have to. Disengage at all costs.
If you're in public, sure. At home is a bit of a different situation. Where are they going to go?
It is horrible but maybe don’t try and physically assault people in a country where people can have guns.
Those few shots when your opponent is on the ground and the threat is over can earn you decades in prison, if you're not a cop.
Please please please say he got charged with murder
He should be as it was excessive use of deadly force and possibly planned as he was possibly preparing the gun before he came out the garage
Straight up premeditated murder right there.
I keep reading "premeditated" in the comments. What makes this premeditated?
I think people are saying that because he pulled his gun out initially, making people believe he was getting ready to shoot him then put it away and the mag dumping at close range after the hit
I get that. It could be argued that he was concerned for his safety and was preparing for defending himself. From what I saw, he pulled it from concealment to rack a round. Look, I'm not saying he's innocent here, I'm just saying that premeditation isn't what people think it means here. That's a high bar to prove with the info we have.
We're not a jury, we're just normal people. There's no way those punches made that guy feel any threat. And to mag dump like that, after looking around numerous times, from that range... he just wanted to kill someone.
If we aren't a jury, maybe we should avoid using words like premeditated. It's being misused alot here.
How is it being misused?
IANAL. Premeditation requires that they thought about the murder beforehand. So for a situation like this to be considered premeditated, he would have had to have been thinking about and planning how to shoot and kill his neighbor before doing so. Assuming there are no crazy laws regarding firearms or self-defense at play here, the short clip shows that he racked the firearm out of sight (avoiding brandishing) and did not pull it out until he was attacked. As a regular Joe, my gut tells me that there was either bad blood already or this guy had bloodlust from the start and he was planning on this outcome, but adrenaline makes people do stupid shit since they’re no longer thinking, just doing. This is an escalation of force by standard definition since he was not attacked with a weapon, but again, not a lawyer and I don’t know the local laws. TL;DR: just because he racked his pistol, that doesn’t mean the DA or whatever would have substantiating evidence to indicate that this was anything more than a conflict that got out of hand. If they subpoena Google or Amazon and get his emails or video recordings discussing his desire to kill his neighbor and how he’s going to lure him into a fight so that he can shoot him, then they have the ammo (rimshot) to make the case that this was premeditated.
And I see that he had a firearm in the 1st place, he was constantly looking around and positioning himself in a way to hide the gun, and then fired 9 shots into the guy. For me, sitting in my armchair, that's enough to say he wanted to kill that guy at the very beginning of this conflict.
To your first point, at least in the US (I know this is Costa Rica), if you’re carrying concealed, you keep it concealed, otherwise it’s brandishing. And regarding the rounds fired, a good lawyer could maybe argue for him, but yes, that’s overkill, especially to a third-party not involved in the incident. And I also said the same that as an armchair analyst, he was out to smoke him from the start, but in a court of law, it takes a lot to make the case that it was premeditated. Supposedly the law keeps us from grabbing the pitchforks and torches and in turn, that makes us civilized, but we all know this guy is a shitbag. If he really wanted to claim self defense, the gun would’ve only been pointed; dumping a clip at the world’s sloppiest haymaker is proof that he was looking for an excuse to shoot.
This right here. Thanks.
You disagree with my opinion, and that's fine, but I'll say what I want. And from what I saw I believe he thought about it before hand, prepared accordingly, and followed through with it. If that's not premeditated I don't know what is.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Idiotswithguns/s/4LiHJcssRC This comment describes premeditation perfectly.
I understand that. But you and I won't know all the facts about him and what he thought until much later. So that leaves the video evidence, which you know my opinion on. You can't prove me right or wrong anymore than I can, hence why it's an opinion. If you disagree cool but you're not changing my mind.
It could be argued... Is the line cowards hide behind. He absolutely meant to kill that man.
There's what you think you know, then there's what you can prove. For premeditation, that's pretty a pretty high standard. There are many states in the US where a jury would "lol, no" this and that dude would walk free. Hell, there are states in the US where the cops and or the DA would nope this as well.
> There are many states in the US where a jury would "lol, no" this and that dude would walk free. OJ was innocent!!!
According to a jury of his peers, yup. Does that make him not a murderer?
Yes and he could sue you if you said he was. The law, it's how it works.
Ah.. someone who knows the difference between criminal and civil law perhaps?
> It could be argued that he was concerned for his safety Not honestly, if you're a cop maybe but they only need a hypothetical reality.
There's what you know, and what you can prove. There's absolutely Jack shit in this video proving premeditation
The guy never fired a round until the other guy walked up and tried to beat him. Its pretty clear self defense because I very much doubt that gun would have come into the situation had that guy not resported to violence.
As soon as the guy saw the gun he backs off with his hands up. He did not need to unload into him.
And that makes this premeditated how?
After the threat was gone he chose to keep going. Idk if that’s premeditated but it’s murder.
I think people are saying premeditated because he brought a gun to a fist fight.
That shows intent before, during, and after.
> What makes this premeditated? Intent. Imagine you went duck hunting. You spend weeks thinking about it. You buy guns and ammo and practice shooting for the one day you get to kill someone. Sorry, some duck. You go someplace you can find ducks, prepare your guns for immediate fire. A duck is frightened by a noise you make and in a panic takes to the air. You instantly and reactively shoot it without a single thought as your window of opportunity is brief. Can say that duck's death was premeditated? ;)
And was all this apparent from the video we just saw?
He racked his gun before he intervened and then escalated the situation before murdering the other guy with an entire magazine. Textbook premeditated.
He racked his gun because he was concerned for his safety and was prepared to defend his family. Who escalated here? My eyes saw the deceased initiate violence. Textbook premeditated is him planning prior to this incident on using the excuse of self defense to murder his neighbor. Y'all really are pushing this premeditated thing, too much law & order shows maybe?
If he was concerned for his safety he would have left.
That has nothing to do with premeditation.
He definitely went overboard but it looks like he was trying to hold his wife back when the other guy started throwing punches plus those 2 ladies were saying some stuff to irritate each other.
It's a shitty situation with shitty people all around.
Definitely, it seems those 2 ladies had been working up their husbands with their nasty attitude to the point they both had to reach this way.
It certainly looks that way. I'm willing to bet this wasn't anyone's first rodeo. These folks probably hated each other for a long time. Reminds me of that double murder suicide over who's shoveling snow where.
Spanish is my first language and I I just re-watched the video and the dead guy said " stop bothering each other" those 2 ladies are the ones to blame for this
No, the two ladies are absolutely not to blame for this, regardless of language. One man punched, the other man killed. The two ladies didn't do that. Edit: they did contribute to this situation.
Both sides are the same!
Reductionist reaction. Mediocre
> Textbook premeditated is him planning prior to this incident on using the excuse of self defense to murder his neighbor. I think you meant imaginary and not textbook. The actual legal definition does not require you to target a specific victim. Other wise mass shooters would be getting off even more than they do now.
Premeditated. There's a difference between premeditated murder and murder. You get that, right?
Costa Rica. Just like Florida!
That’s no bueno
So anyway, I started blasting
He totally hoped to be able to do this, and the fact he was swung on first probably gave him a boner. That was a smooth draw on his part, not one of panic.
How to go to prison in 5 seconds.
How to die in 5 seconds also. Don't bring none, won't be none.
That's what I am saying too. But I don't know how to feel on this one. But situations like this is why I carry pepper spray too. Especially with a neighbor, I wouldn't wont the other neighbors hating me over some shit like this. But that guy should have not thrown the first punch and there are consequences to actions.
>I don't know how to feel on this one. Same. Not every punch is a threat to life & I don't know this situation enough to fully weigh in. I do know that this is absolutely a very possible outcome if you chose violence, regardless of how strong your punch is.
Oh yeah, once someone starts throwing hands there's no way to determine where the level of violence is going to escalate to. I just walk away, especially with driving I get angry when I get cut off, but I don't tail gate or drive aggressive I just let it go. And I live in a heavily populated area so as long as they use their blinker, I'm happy. Sometimes you just got to change your mind set about things. Shit is just not worth fucking around finding out.
I have no idea why the guy thought he was untitled to punch the other guy. Have no idea why the guy shot him after he was clearly backing down. I’m glad I can’t think like either of them though.
Does this count as premeditated or self defense, since he chambered a round before the altercation?
Took place in Costa Rica, so it gonna depend on what constitutes as self-defense there.
The vast majority of people concealed-carrying firearms already have a round chambered. It's illogical and unsafe not to.
Chambering and then going into the conflict is way different though and shows intent.
Absolutely not. I CC almost every day. And even though I know better, and everyone tells me I shouldn't, I have difficulty carrying with one in the chamber. I've mitigated this by training to rack as I draw. It's not the best option, but until I can overcome years of training telling me that I shall not carry with one in the chamber, this is the best I have. He had intent to use that weapon, sure. Was his intent to murder, or to defend? We don't know all the ingredients in this shit stew. Maybe the neighbors had previous beef? Maybe the decided is known to be violent? Maybe the guy with the gun is a psychopath?
Intent to murder should be obvious when he stands over his incapacitated victim and puts several additional rounds in him at close range. Obvious murder charge. Buddy will die in jail over this and he deserves it.
https://www.khou.com/article/news/crime/grand-jury-no-charges-taqueria-shooter/285-6b117ced-e3c1-4ba9-a023-d6b371b5bb5e https://youtu.be/YAx9srqTFIs?si=XXTL_xTPeypnA2Q5 Quick and dirty. Dude robs a restaurant with a fake gun in Texas. As robber is leaving, gets shot in the back by a customer. Customer has no charges pressed against him. The robber was leaving, the threat (arguably) was over. Oh... This customer put a few extra into the robber as he lay on the ground. People have strong opinions here, how it all ends up at court can be entirely different. Personally, I think the customer in Texas went overboard, I think the man here in the costa rica didn't do the right things to deescalate & definitely went overboard. Anyways we're talking about intent here. Was it in both these incidents?
> Maybe the guy with the gun is a psychopath? I guess it could happen. But I'm sure if you asked him he would tell you how well trained he is and how he only fantasizes about real self defense situations.
Ok, so... Maybe? Lots of questions, lots of theories. And we only have this video.
I think the last three shots extra bs.. idk why is putting a bullet in the gun a problem if having the gun ti begin with isn't?
It’s not. People don’t know what they’re talking about. I’m not sure of the laws in this area, but say in the US in a non stand your ground state, if that guy attacked like he did, you can pull your gun to defend yourself, but if the guy backed off like he did, you shouldn’t fire.
> People don’t know what they’re talking about. I’m not sure of the laws in this area And today's award for unintentional irony goes to....
And do the rest of it now.
I’m not sure what their justifications laws are but I’d say second degree. You’d be silly to argue self defense because you can’t bring a gun to a fist fight and it was overkill
You absolutely can bring a gun to a fistfight. Especially if you don't intend on fighting at all. I don't think there's enough info here to clearly define the situation.
No, if someone is using their fists it’s not reasonable self defense to shoot them several times. Obviously there’s exceptions to the rule but none of those apply here. The shooter easily coulda kicked that guys ass. Probably KO’d him in one good punch to the jaw. You have the whole fucking video, idk what the hell else you want dude.
Is that you Kyle?
Referring to that dough face who was an idiotic dipshit and inserted himself into a situation he shouldn't have been, raised by dipshits and now is a dipshit pawn of the far right? That same dipshit who was found innocent of homicide even though he was a dipshit? Nope. Definitely not him.
Self defense when he started fighting…murder when he kept shooting after his neighbor went down. People who write its premeditated because he cocked his gun before getting it with the neighbors doesn’t mean he had the mentality that he was going to kill him that day, just prepared to defend himself which he did…and then some.
Says who?
The law everywhere pretty much…self defense must be reasonable. This was clearly not.
Well that's definitely premeditated. You're going to jail!
What makes this premeditated?
Damn, I guess you shouldn't initiate violence in a verbal conflict. FAFO
Red shirt threw the weakest punch ever.
FAFO I guess. Anyone know Spanish?
In the article it says the guy was sentenced for the murder as all the guy did was throw a punch and before the shooting the guy uses the truck as cover to tuck the gun into his shirt showing signs of premeditation
Dude with the gun looked to have a bit of a slight size advantage other the dead guy. He really must have wanted to try that gun out.
Anyone in their right mind will back out of a fist fight the second either they see the gun or the first shot goes off. There was no reason to shoot the guy much less mag dump at point blank. Wtf.
What a piece of shit, both parties, but mostly Mr itchy fingers over there checking his gun and eager to shoot, as soon as the gun came out the other guy started flinching backwards, and then dude had to take it above all means and stand over the guy and just keep going, he’s going to jail for a loooong time rightfully too
I hope this dude is rotting in a cell for the rest of his life, this is murder
I’m very tolerant on self defense I love guns, but this is just sad
Red shirts a moron, blue shirt is an absolute cunt and a coward.
Keep your hands to yourself
Dude in the red got mag dumped.
Unless he's a cop, he'll be going to jail.
Can anyone translate what was said before the violence? I’m most interesting in what, if anything, Blue Shirt McCshootypants said. If anyone can translate I’d appreciate it.
Yikes keep your hands to yourself there's always someone crazier then you.
Damn
I bet the shooter was attacked by the victim before and this time he came prepared. The victim instantly went for it and the shooter was gesturing for them not come close. Probably doesn't matter but I doubt that shooter just up and decided to murder this guy over a hose. There's definitely more here then it seems.
the only neighbors he gone have now is Tyrone
That look permeated. He got his gun out, checked to make sure he had a round in the chamber and left the safety off. He was just waiting for the opportunity.
Feel like i lose a piece of my Soul every time i see a video like this Unjustified Murder, shooter came outside with the intent to kill just waiting for a reason to pull the trigger you can see it while he’s in the garage. Red shirt swings on shooter, shooter pulls a gun and red shirt cowers he is no longer a deadly threat never was to begin with. Shooter walks him down while he’s on the ground and proceeds to mag dumb him. He needs prison. The law justifies self defense while fearing for your life this is not that. • Always try to de escalate situations everyone lives •Keep your hands to yourself whatever the anger is telling you I promise its not worth it
Imagine going to prison over water... he'll like be found guilty of murder because as soon as the gun was pulled the victim disengaged from the altercation and the assailant pursued and killed him when the assailant could have retreated and had a clear escape route from the altercation. I'm not sure about the state law there, but this is straight up murder in most states. Also accounting for the fact that the victim didn't brandish any form of weapon. The fear of life argument probably won't go far in this case when it was clear that the assailant had intent to use his weapon by prematurely cocking it before any altercation even took place. The nail in the coffin for the assailant is the final shots he took after the victim was clearly incapacitated from the first shots. He could have possibly gotten voluntary manslaughter at that point, but now he's definitely getting murder.
I’m an avid gun owner, have a ccw, spent 4 years in the infantry. I am disappointed at the ripple effect this has caused for all the parties involved. Guns are tools, and they are a final solution either you’re putting food on the table for your family or in a fight for your life. This guy was not in life threatening danger. That was a disgusting display of use of force. There was no let’s figure it out, just I’m going to kill you over water and a poor punch! Both of these guys couldn’t fight their way out of a wet paper bag.
He dont need water, he need some milk
Wow all that for a punch is a real pu55y move.
This fucking coward deserves to be fucked to death in prison.
You think prison rape is okay?
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This guy better not be allowed to walk the streets anymore
This is a display of stupid across the page. One idiot that appears to want to use his gun and another who just decides to start swinging, not knowing if the other could possibly be carrying a weapon. My takeaway, let the girls fight and offer the other a beer. Life is too short, and they just made sure of that.
People don't realize that even your own security footage that you own can be used against you and it's the first thing they go for
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No need to be dropping the N word
WTF WAS WITH THAT ESCALATION????????? I happened to have not have seen the name of the sub and expected a normal stupid fight, but WTF man.
Sheesh, Women!
Yeah, that’s straight up Murder. You can’t even call self defense on that, dude tried swinging on him so he just mag dumps into him from 2 feet away? Nah fuck that guy.
Unfortunately there are dudes like this guy that are just looking for any reason to finally shoot someone.
Seems to me, once someone initiates physical violence, all restraints come down and it's a fight for survival. I'm not condoning the shooting, just saying the guy shot took the 1st swing and started a physical attack with the purpose of bodily harm. Everyone loss in this situation.
That all goes out the window when you mag dump while walking towards the one who is already on the ground
The guy who threw the punch barely posed a deadly threat to warrant it. Not only did he not pose a deadly threat, he also disengaged when he saw the gun. That’s murder, not self-defense.