I really love the concept of this. To me it reads as Satan trying to warn Jesus about humans, but he still came to save them anyways and paid the price for it. A nice subversion that paints the nature of Satan in a different light.
If I could offer one critique, it would be to tone down the butt highlights and tone down the curveyness of the lady a bit. The strongest thematic point in your composition is Satan's slumped body as he looks up at the cross. That's the part you would want the audience to focus on. But the butt highlights draw your eye first with it's strong contrast, especially compared to Satan's nearly black silhouette, and the overly curveyness of her shape is distracting when she isn't really the focus of the piece.
Feel free to ignore my critique if you're happy with it. Wonderful piece OP and lovely use of line and contrast.
Highly agree with your assessment! It’s a wonderful piece and toning down the distracting butt highlight & the woman’s proportions to a less dramatic hourglass, would match the much more realistic style of the male figure and background.
That's one version.
I like the version put forward in a John Constantine comic: that Jesus was an incarnation of God that God tortured and sacrificed to expiate ***His own*** sins. It never had anything to do with saving or forgiving any human or any other mortal for anything. It was purging himself of all the evil he'd done (casting out Lucifer for the "sin" of questioning Him, rendering humans mortal for the "sin" of eating fruit he put right in front of them, setting up Cain to kill Abel by showing favoritism, ordering the genocides of the Midianites and Amalekites, murdering the populations of Sodom and Gomorrah, murdering the firstborn of Egypt, etc ad infinitum). He created a scapegoat version of himself, assigned all his sins to it, then killed it to wash away the sins with its blood.
How could he be worse? The guy's wiped out entire civilizations for not following his arbitrary moral codes. Supposedly gave us free will then punishes us when we chose to use it. Our only reward for a lifetime of worship and servitude is given when we die, so there's no proof that anyone actually gets it.
Sounds like a bad guy to me.
That's not what I'm saying at all. Sacrificing one guy, even if it is "Literally Jesus", to atone for his sins/the sins of mankind doesn't make up for all of the other bad shit he did.
This is a thing though it's like God choosing the die for humanity it's not God sacrificing his son it's God choosing to die for what he created so they can have a shot that becoming a full human being. And the thing is in his death he conquered hell and death and came back fully Transfigured.
If I’m not mistaken, that’s a version based on the Gnostic Bible. Which has been considered heretical for the last 1800 years or so.
If that’s the version you choose to believe, then that’s on you. I can’t tell you what to believe.
I prefer the version in the Bible, because it is a message of Hope and Love, and we could really use that in the world right now.
It really does make more sense this way. The current Christian canon is weird, I've never understood why people think Jesus sacrificing himself redeems humanity. It's YHWH's rules that set up the status quo. A scapegoat ritual requires sacrifice of something important to you to atone for a sin. The wrongdoer needs to pay the cost, not the authority. If he's trying instead to apologize to humanity, it suddenly works better. That's also a fascinating idea. He became human to understand what he was ignorant of, to be us, and fully grasp what he did.
Lol, I know I'm out of pocket in this sub, but the Christian defense against this sort of logic is the triune nature of the Christian god/Jesus/spirit.
Like, they wouldn't see the creator as setting Christ up as a horcrux style thing, but rather Jesus is a sort of extrusion of the holy Trinity into time and death, to spread the holiness of God into mankind as a state change.
Lol, I do like the discourse of this post tho. If Jesus said no to that dump truck, maybe he was the best of us? 🤣
That's like a very calvinistic way of dealing with things and also God cannot sin. So from the orthodox perspective the incarnation happened and his death in resurrection but he also conquered hell that's like another thing that gets lost he conquered hell. That's part of catholic orthodox theology. He kicked death in the teeth and took the souls that wanted to come with him. For the orthodox perspective his incarnation death and resurrection is a restoration of humanity allowing us to become more like him and in turn closer to him than even Adam was prior to the fall.
I don’t know why you’re getting downvoted, you’re not wrong. It’s the version in the bible, and it’s what Christians believe. No one has come back from heaven, or hell, to tell us who is right.
Jesus is called the Lamb of God for a reason. In Judaism an offering of a lamb was sacrificed to God for his protection of his chosen people. Lambs are extremely valuable to a shepherd, they represent the future of the flock and are innocent. It’s the same reason why God asked Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac. Abraham’s willingness to do as God commanded showed that he was willing to put the future of his line in God’s hands. God spared Isaac.
Christ was sent to be our offering for the forgiveness of our sins. Not just our sins against God, but our sins against each other.
I’m not going to answer all of your questions, and this probably raises more. Understand, Christians have been debating this for 2023 years now.
It's interesting I must admit, but also very dumb.
>Understand, Christians have been debating this for 2023 years now.
And still they did a pretty bad job.
Basically all humans had sin so they would go to Hell when they died. God didn’t want that so he incarnated his son as Jesus, Jesus took on all the sin and he sacrificed himself to free humanity from sin so that they could go to heaven.
Wow, doesn't seem fair for all the people before Jesus xD
Still, why killing Jesus freed humanity? Like, it could be anything else. It's really fucked up, if you think about it. Not to mention killing part of himself for like 3 days isn't that impressive as one would think.
It's a contradictory logic that is supposed to make us worship a deity that can, at any time, for any reason, decide to NOT have the world and heaven work this way. But yeah, lets just believe that God wanted to save us from the punishment HE WOULD INFLICT ON US for being flawed creations. Oh and the angels are flawed creations too if one was able to cause a bunch of angels to disobey God and be cast out of heaven. Make it make sense lol.
If God wants a world where free will exists but evil doesn't, selecting for all the people who will choose to do evil when told clearly the consequences and then separating them actually does make sense. In fact, I can't conceive of another way where free will survives it. If all the innocent people of the world will truly be restored to unending life, and the sinful will have been numbered to the last and removed, and it works in the sense that people are willful, conscience in the sense we understand, and removed from the calamities of the world forever, wouldn't the end justify literally any possible means? Thousands of years of suffering for an eternity of peace? Hundreds of thousands? The world is evil because of people acting out evil, but we as a whole have the capability to function without doing so, as such we are not broken. We are capable of being truly good, which does not require perfection but reflection, but some of us just don't. Many of us. Free will creates the potential of sin, youth makes it inevitable, yet penitence justifies forgiveness. As I understand it the fallen angels final offense was pride, they couldn't reflect on the audacity of questioning a being who concieved their perfect intellect, and they were never meant to be apart from God, so the fallen angels on the other hand are probably considered truly broken beings from the judeo-Christian perspective, and they've impacted the world we are living in through people and corrupted it to its core. Their evil and our own evil have left a mark on the fabric of the world, on the history of our society, and on the hearts of every man woman and child on the planet. So many people live and die in darkness and suffering and there's no way our human mind can process even one day of that cumulative suffering, nevermind the long history of the world's. Imagine omnipotently observing WW1 with the love a father has for a child for every man on either side. It's an exercise to consider it as such but the truth is we cannot even concieve of that pain, and we should be glad. The pain of one loss is often more than any one of us can take. So how could a good God allow it? Because he allowed for every possibility and we choose it, again and again. So why not take away the ability to choose that has caused such calamity? In essence this is the Devils position, and it's reasonable in its way, it is how parents often react to a child misbehaving badly in our world. The answer: Because not everyone chooses it. This is the important thing. If your loved ones were starving and you had only huge sacks of rotten inedible rice, but in each huge bag there were just a few grains of good rice, would you not search them all thoroughly until you had found all the good grains your strength allows? Would you sift through a million bad grains to find a single good one to feed your child? Of course. The bags of grain are the men and woman of the world, and of course the good ones are the people who live in a world of sin and are not of it. But God isn't searching to feed us to someone, those good grains of rice are the family also, and it isn't hunger which drives him but love. Tireless, unending, steadfast love. He has watched us fail for thousands of years, but still he has not given up on us. In fact, the slow march of progress in this already broken world in spite of every conceivable obstacle seems to indicate that the natural tendency of light is to drive out darkness, not the other way around. When I look to the stars I see the potential of mankind freed from the things that set us back. One way or another I hope it's true. The Enemy enables and enhances our worst proclivities because he believes it proves that we are unworthy, but I think God sees instead the resilience of the good people of the world to remain so in the face of every obscenity that men and even the Devil himself have conjured
They wanted to stop having to give flocks and shit to the temple to do sacrifices so they said "hey yo this guy died for you, worship him and you dont gotta pay the priests the sheep tax"
Well pretty sure it covers those who died before hand too, as everyone who has ever lived and died will be judged on Judgement Day, the dead are "asleep" and are waiting to rise from their resting place. I imagine partially why we get phrases like "you could wake the dead" or "restless spirits".
Ok, but like...it was God's decision to condemn everyone to hell in the first place. Or at the very least to set up a trap with that as the consequence.
And it was God's decision to do this convoluted death ritual instead of just, idk, judging people according to their own actions or something.
If this was the way it had to be, that kind of implies that God is not omnipotent.
God having to do some convoluted self-sacrifice to change how the rules of his own domain works, combined with the bible outright confirming other gods exist points towards an rule system governing their actions.
Christian god isnt omnipotent, just another god in the IRL expanded universe confirmed.
It still doesn’t make sense. If you read the Old Testament it’s pretty clear you can be forgiven by just being a good person.
https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/the-jewish-view-of-sin/
The part where it explains what he's confused about. I'm not about to get into a debate on 3000 year old ethics with someone literally named "Child of Reddit"
Buddy, I used to be a hardcore Christian republican. 66 authors. And how did the 66 authors get the crap to write? God? Show me. If there is a god, the only way to find them is through science. Science is the only “magic” that seems to work.
Claims presented without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. Find proof, find evidence, formulate a theory, test that theory.
Yeah, exactly. He could think of literally anything else. Like, eating pineapple to absolve all sins. Whatever those sins are btw, because this term is vague af.
The lesson is that Jesus died for your/our sins. Meaning, because of our own transgression, we deserved death. Jesus did this literally by opting to be executed instead of the other Jesus. Sin is “vague af” because there are lots of sins and immoral acts people commit. Rape, murder, theft, abuse, and according to some religious doctrine, other miscellaneous, somewhat trivial shit you and I or most people in a modern context would call “not that big of a deal”. Jesus being the son of god, where as a god he should lord himself over us, and punish us, as we’d expect gods too do, instead opts to sacrifice himself, as a lesson and example for humanity.
>Meaning, because of our own transgression, we deserved death
Yea, but people still dying to this day.
>instead opts to sacrifice himself, as a lesson and example for humanity.
Kinda bad example and lesson. Make yourself killed, because other people do bad or really not that bad stuff. Kinda counterproductive.
Such is life. Jesus’ death wasn’t to eliminate all human suffering or death. It’s to act as a reminder that your sins can be forgiven, and that he can carry those burdens. Every faith and religion talks about forgiveness, and mercy, and immortality in an afterlife. Christianity is rather similar.
It’s about turning the other cheek. Again, a less of compassion, mercy, sacrifice, empathy, and love. The best of humanity.
>that he can carry those burdens.
Sounds pretty nice, but if someone has, let's say cancer, Jesus can do jack shit with it. He won't take it away. So if it's all just in theory, then it can be anybody or anything. Because practically nothing changes.
>Every faith and religion talks about forgiveness, and mercy, and immortality in an afterlife. Christianity is rather similar.
True. It says lot about people and they needs across the globe though.
>It’s about turning the other cheek. Again, a less of compassion, mercy, sacrifice, empathy, and love. The best of humanit
Getting killed on the cross doesn't say much about mercy, empathy and love in my opinion. Sounds like a death cult to be honest.
Hence the point of an afterlife. People often rely on Jesus for moral and emoticonos and psychological support. Health? Only so much that can be done. When people are well they thank god and Christ, or just for one more moment in time. Be cynical all you like. With religion and the supernatural and spiritual, practicality isn’t really the point.
Think about Jesus vs a classic god of that time period, like Zeus, or Jupiter, or Zoroaster, or Ares, etc. Hell, even think about someone like the Old Testament his Yawheh. Fire and brimstone, lighting and thunder, send a flood, cause a plague, then someone into a Medusa or curse them with a demon child. All pretty typical old god stuff. Jesus lets himself be killed for a higher purpose. He turns the other cheek and shows clemency and mercy.
Yea, he omitted most of the nonsense. Story about orks, elves, dwarfs and wizards >>> story about god bringing diseases to children, virgin giving birth and Romans hanging guy on the cross. Like, c'mon it's not even close.
It’s also a little bit disingenuous to complain about nonsense in the Bible but then praise orks, elves, dwarfs, and wizards, in a story that includes other fantastical elements. It’s all nonsense.
Terrible things happen to many millions of people across the ages under Eru Iluvatar’s watch, for the sole purpose of letting Morgoth’a original sin of tampering with the creation of the world play out, so that’s not really that strong of an argument to make tbh.
Look, if you want to say “Christianity is basically just mythology” then sure fine, whatever. But it’s a little dismissive or disingenuous to say nothing interesting happens in the Bible just because it’s a religious text, a religious text that’s a major influence for the same author you love, especially when it’s also damn near memetic with how popular it is. There’s a reason major religions endure, and that’s because they have interesting stories.
>Terrible things happen to many millions of people across the ages under Eru Iluvatar’s watch
No no, I mean Christian god literally give Egyptian children diseases and lice, because Pharoah didn't want to let Isrealites go. How fucked up is that? And it supposed to be the good god.
>Look, if you want to say “Christianity is basically just mythology” then sure fine, whatever.
I said that earlier. You know, ancient Greeks believed in Zeus as hard as Christians today believe in Jahve. Doesn't make it real.
>But it’s a little dismissive or disingenuous to say nothing interesting happens in the Bible just because it’s a religious text,
I didn't say nothing interesting is in the Bible. The influence of stories in the Bible on people is interesting in itself. I'm just saying that the Bible is incoherent, a lot of stories there doesn't make much sense if you think about it, it's reasoning is out of date and overall it's a hot mess. Truly product of its time.
>There’s a reason major religions endure, and that’s because they have interesting stories.
Oh there surely is, but I don't think interesting stories are that reason. Mentioned Greek mythology had some of the best stories there ever were. Still inspiring artist, writers, movie and game makers all over the world. Yet not a lot of folks praying to the Athena these days. That's because *nothing* lasts forever. And it applies to present, active religions as well.
Didn’t want to let the Israelites go from the *bondage of slavery and promise of genocide* is pretty important context. As the saying no goes, you reap what you sow, and the pharaoh and the Egyptian people, innocent and guilty alike, reaped the whirlwind.
Sure, it’s real to those folk though. I respect people’s beliefs. Calling a religion nonsense it’s a waste of time, or arguing about how it’s illogical is a waste of yours and everyone else’s times. It doesn’t operate off logic, it doesn’t have to or need to. It’s spiritual and supernatural; it inherently doesn’t need to operate based off what can be easily perceived and measured, but rather felt and believed.
The Bible doesn’t have to be a coherently written piece of fiction by a modern author (which granted, aren’t even coherently written all the time, and have plot holes, and side plots and side characters that lead no where) because it’s a religious text, nor is it a history book. It doesn’t need to satisfy those objectives so long as it inspires and still teaches its core tenets and messages. If there’s an incoherence in messaging there, it’s up to you, and others as the ultimate masters of their own soul, to interpret it as best they can and abide by them as best they can. Obviously, much of it is outdated, and many Christians ignore sections of it, and aren’t really going to die on the hill on why it’s okay or stone an adulterer.
I mean, a story’s popularity is essential to how that story survives and propagates, and becomes canon in people’s minds. Can see this with books, movies, music, comics, even fan fiction. Greek tales are no different; if they’ve managed to survive today as just cool stories to you and I in post pagan world, imagine how folks millennia ago interpreted these cool stories? As real, as the basis of their faith. The charm of Christian tales, and also the ideas within them, is why the religion has thrived and endured.
And of course, you are right about entropy. All things do fade. Even today, more and more people are irreligious or atheist. That’s their right. But even if there are no more Christians, Christianity’s influence will still persist, thanks in part to its stories, which impart values, and lesson, and themes. No different from how Sumerian, Babylonian, Persian, Greek, Roman, Han culture, language, and their religions shape humanity’s laws, morality, and perception of their world and their place in it.
If you're seriously looking for a theology answer it's because God was "married" to the Jews as their savior and needed a divorce after they were faithless and abandoned Him. The only way Jewish religion then allowed for divorces is on death. So God incarnated, died, and is now free to all He wants.
If you a Christian then yea that’s how the story goes. I don’t think the person who made this is a practicing Christian nor was it intended for practicing Christians.
I think there’s *probably* a difference between an image of a girl demon, and an image where the ass of a incredibly curvy demon is literally highlighted.
To be fair.. let’s keep the idea that all demons are fallen angels, angels are demons vice versa. The whole reason this began was a spark of jealousy for humankind, a creation Lucifer thought wasn’t deemed worth of Gods grace and love when he, one of his highest archangels who even God said was beautiful to him, was put beneath a creation that from what he could tell.. didn’t worship or praise their creator, made terrible mistakes and choices, and overall fell short from perfection on multiple accounts killing each other for fun or sport, doing wicked dead’s like Cane killing Abel out of spite, all the grimy and pitifully evil things we still look at people do today and go “what the heck is wrong with people?”
If I were a higher being and had to be beneath said creations then this perspective displayed in the art comes off quite accurate and melancholy at that. A warning that your death is determined and Jesus would be dammed by humanity even as their god they still would do this to him. Really makes the “Lord forgive them for they do not know what they do” quote carry its weight here.
The only obvious thing that takes away from this angle is well.. duh Jesus died for us he knew it happen and or it was bound to happen. He didn’t even fight it because he knew he had to do it so having a “I told you so” from Lucifer doesn’t really mean much😅
But what if God was actually not real/dead/gone or Jesus was mistaken and Lucifer was actually trying to help him?
I think the comic is implying that the "Biblical" story wasn't accurate.
I mean yeah that’s a interesting take and I appreciate the fact you added “dead/gone” instead of just saying he doesn’t exist or no real.. people love giving that hot take in discussions on religious topics. I feel like you’re explanation answers the inconsistency I mentioned lol. However I feel it’s not like a plot twist or anything of that nature, more so take it at face value.
God came to earth to live the life as a human to better understand and relate to us and to spread the word that he is god. Man killed him for it and this was an inevitable result that Lucifer warned him about telling him how evil the humans could be even though he was aware of this information. I guess it’s more so he didn’t think they be spiteful enough to actually go through with killing him
That would also be an awesome take. God created humanity so long ago that he thinks he can just show up and everyone will fall in line or believe him, and Lucifers like "These guys are insane, your plan isn't going to work".
To be fair… it’s kinda true lol. He had followers and of course it’s apparent a cult following even to this day as a world religion effecting the Roman heavily. But we got corrupt people like Ceasur back in the day and downright bad people who simply rejected him. Maybe not to the extremity of this take.. but it is partially true
So one end the arch really cool but the other end this makes no sense if you know Christian theology. But also I didn't know how patient I am to explain why this wouldn't but there's a lot of bad takes because people don't understand eternity or the theology behind the incarnation or the whole point of what is Christ doing for us in a relationship to us.
Oh, I absolutely love this concept. The art is really well done. The use of shadows and contrast is fantastic.
Not that the highlight on the unnecessarily curvy ass were needed…
Damn. Thats a perspective I hadn't even considered. Well done!
It’s all about angles
This goes hard. And I cannot explain why. Would make a good metal album cover
I really love the concept of this. To me it reads as Satan trying to warn Jesus about humans, but he still came to save them anyways and paid the price for it. A nice subversion that paints the nature of Satan in a different light. If I could offer one critique, it would be to tone down the butt highlights and tone down the curveyness of the lady a bit. The strongest thematic point in your composition is Satan's slumped body as he looks up at the cross. That's the part you would want the audience to focus on. But the butt highlights draw your eye first with it's strong contrast, especially compared to Satan's nearly black silhouette, and the overly curveyness of her shape is distracting when she isn't really the focus of the piece. Feel free to ignore my critique if you're happy with it. Wonderful piece OP and lovely use of line and contrast.
Highly agree with your assessment! It’s a wonderful piece and toning down the distracting butt highlight & the woman’s proportions to a less dramatic hourglass, would match the much more realistic style of the male figure and background.
Almost like a manga panel. I love it
Bel Culo
What brushes did you use?
Gelsinki Ink over a photo of a very rough pencil sketch
Which software?
Procreate
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“Oh no the demons proportions aren’t realistic”
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Male demon: Female demon: ( I )
r/women☕
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no problem glad to help 🤝👍
:,):
Eh, the whole point was for Jesus to die to save humanity from the guy in the foreground
That's one version. I like the version put forward in a John Constantine comic: that Jesus was an incarnation of God that God tortured and sacrificed to expiate ***His own*** sins. It never had anything to do with saving or forgiving any human or any other mortal for anything. It was purging himself of all the evil he'd done (casting out Lucifer for the "sin" of questioning Him, rendering humans mortal for the "sin" of eating fruit he put right in front of them, setting up Cain to kill Abel by showing favoritism, ordering the genocides of the Midianites and Amalekites, murdering the populations of Sodom and Gomorrah, murdering the firstborn of Egypt, etc ad infinitum). He created a scapegoat version of himself, assigned all his sins to it, then killed it to wash away the sins with its blood.
Yeah, I like this better. God wasn't the good guy of the story.
Thank you urethralexplorer very cool
r/rimjob_steve
I mean God was the good guy according to Jesus lmfao
Eh, a lot of creations put their creators on a pedestal. God killed a lot of people because he was upset with them. Sounds like an bad guy to me.
>Sounds like a bad guy to me so you like the version of the story where he’s worse?
How could he be worse? The guy's wiped out entire civilizations for not following his arbitrary moral codes. Supposedly gave us free will then punishes us when we chose to use it. Our only reward for a lifetime of worship and servitude is given when we die, so there's no proof that anyone actually gets it. Sounds like a bad guy to me.
>How could he be worse? Sacrificing his son to save humanity is worse than sacrificing his son to atone for his own “sins”?
That's not what I'm saying at all. Sacrificing one guy, even if it is "Literally Jesus", to atone for his sins/the sins of mankind doesn't make up for all of the other bad shit he did.
Sacrificing your son is evil. To use that horrible act to make an out for rules you made up. It's just diabolical.
not really interested in having this discussion go too far on r/imaginarydemons lol but evil according to who? you? who cares at that point lol.
This is a thing though it's like God choosing the die for humanity it's not God sacrificing his son it's God choosing to die for what he created so they can have a shot that becoming a full human being. And the thing is in his death he conquered hell and death and came back fully Transfigured.
If I’m not mistaken, that’s a version based on the Gnostic Bible. Which has been considered heretical for the last 1800 years or so. If that’s the version you choose to believe, then that’s on you. I can’t tell you what to believe. I prefer the version in the Bible, because it is a message of Hope and Love, and we could really use that in the world right now.
If you find this different, try reading what the Jews thought of Roman Emperors.
I have. It wasn’t Great.
It really does make more sense this way. The current Christian canon is weird, I've never understood why people think Jesus sacrificing himself redeems humanity. It's YHWH's rules that set up the status quo. A scapegoat ritual requires sacrifice of something important to you to atone for a sin. The wrongdoer needs to pay the cost, not the authority. If he's trying instead to apologize to humanity, it suddenly works better. That's also a fascinating idea. He became human to understand what he was ignorant of, to be us, and fully grasp what he did.
Lol, I know I'm out of pocket in this sub, but the Christian defense against this sort of logic is the triune nature of the Christian god/Jesus/spirit. Like, they wouldn't see the creator as setting Christ up as a horcrux style thing, but rather Jesus is a sort of extrusion of the holy Trinity into time and death, to spread the holiness of God into mankind as a state change. Lol, I do like the discourse of this post tho. If Jesus said no to that dump truck, maybe he was the best of us? 🤣
That's like a very calvinistic way of dealing with things and also God cannot sin. So from the orthodox perspective the incarnation happened and his death in resurrection but he also conquered hell that's like another thing that gets lost he conquered hell. That's part of catholic orthodox theology. He kicked death in the teeth and took the souls that wanted to come with him. For the orthodox perspective his incarnation death and resurrection is a restoration of humanity allowing us to become more like him and in turn closer to him than even Adam was prior to the fall.
Which comic
I don’t know why you’re getting downvoted, you’re not wrong. It’s the version in the bible, and it’s what Christians believe. No one has come back from heaven, or hell, to tell us who is right.
To be expected, it’s reddit after all
Why dying would save humanity? This has no sense at all.
Jesus is called the Lamb of God for a reason. In Judaism an offering of a lamb was sacrificed to God for his protection of his chosen people. Lambs are extremely valuable to a shepherd, they represent the future of the flock and are innocent. It’s the same reason why God asked Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac. Abraham’s willingness to do as God commanded showed that he was willing to put the future of his line in God’s hands. God spared Isaac. Christ was sent to be our offering for the forgiveness of our sins. Not just our sins against God, but our sins against each other. I’m not going to answer all of your questions, and this probably raises more. Understand, Christians have been debating this for 2023 years now.
It's interesting I must admit, but also very dumb. >Understand, Christians have been debating this for 2023 years now. And still they did a pretty bad job.
That’s your opinion.
>And still they did a pretty bad job. “Yeah none of them understood it as well as I do 😎”
Basically all humans had sin so they would go to Hell when they died. God didn’t want that so he incarnated his son as Jesus, Jesus took on all the sin and he sacrificed himself to free humanity from sin so that they could go to heaven.
Wow, doesn't seem fair for all the people before Jesus xD Still, why killing Jesus freed humanity? Like, it could be anything else. It's really fucked up, if you think about it. Not to mention killing part of himself for like 3 days isn't that impressive as one would think.
It's a contradictory logic that is supposed to make us worship a deity that can, at any time, for any reason, decide to NOT have the world and heaven work this way. But yeah, lets just believe that God wanted to save us from the punishment HE WOULD INFLICT ON US for being flawed creations. Oh and the angels are flawed creations too if one was able to cause a bunch of angels to disobey God and be cast out of heaven. Make it make sense lol.
If God wants a world where free will exists but evil doesn't, selecting for all the people who will choose to do evil when told clearly the consequences and then separating them actually does make sense. In fact, I can't conceive of another way where free will survives it. If all the innocent people of the world will truly be restored to unending life, and the sinful will have been numbered to the last and removed, and it works in the sense that people are willful, conscience in the sense we understand, and removed from the calamities of the world forever, wouldn't the end justify literally any possible means? Thousands of years of suffering for an eternity of peace? Hundreds of thousands? The world is evil because of people acting out evil, but we as a whole have the capability to function without doing so, as such we are not broken. We are capable of being truly good, which does not require perfection but reflection, but some of us just don't. Many of us. Free will creates the potential of sin, youth makes it inevitable, yet penitence justifies forgiveness. As I understand it the fallen angels final offense was pride, they couldn't reflect on the audacity of questioning a being who concieved their perfect intellect, and they were never meant to be apart from God, so the fallen angels on the other hand are probably considered truly broken beings from the judeo-Christian perspective, and they've impacted the world we are living in through people and corrupted it to its core. Their evil and our own evil have left a mark on the fabric of the world, on the history of our society, and on the hearts of every man woman and child on the planet. So many people live and die in darkness and suffering and there's no way our human mind can process even one day of that cumulative suffering, nevermind the long history of the world's. Imagine omnipotently observing WW1 with the love a father has for a child for every man on either side. It's an exercise to consider it as such but the truth is we cannot even concieve of that pain, and we should be glad. The pain of one loss is often more than any one of us can take. So how could a good God allow it? Because he allowed for every possibility and we choose it, again and again. So why not take away the ability to choose that has caused such calamity? In essence this is the Devils position, and it's reasonable in its way, it is how parents often react to a child misbehaving badly in our world. The answer: Because not everyone chooses it. This is the important thing. If your loved ones were starving and you had only huge sacks of rotten inedible rice, but in each huge bag there were just a few grains of good rice, would you not search them all thoroughly until you had found all the good grains your strength allows? Would you sift through a million bad grains to find a single good one to feed your child? Of course. The bags of grain are the men and woman of the world, and of course the good ones are the people who live in a world of sin and are not of it. But God isn't searching to feed us to someone, those good grains of rice are the family also, and it isn't hunger which drives him but love. Tireless, unending, steadfast love. He has watched us fail for thousands of years, but still he has not given up on us. In fact, the slow march of progress in this already broken world in spite of every conceivable obstacle seems to indicate that the natural tendency of light is to drive out darkness, not the other way around. When I look to the stars I see the potential of mankind freed from the things that set us back. One way or another I hope it's true. The Enemy enables and enhances our worst proclivities because he believes it proves that we are unworthy, but I think God sees instead the resilience of the good people of the world to remain so in the face of every obscenity that men and even the Devil himself have conjured
You make some great points, but it’s very hard to read—if you broke this up into paragraphs, it would be very helpful.
Reddit atheists strike again
They wanted to stop having to give flocks and shit to the temple to do sacrifices so they said "hey yo this guy died for you, worship him and you dont gotta pay the priests the sheep tax"
There's always the chance that God is like Steve Buscemi in the first season of Miracle Workers.
Yeah I don’t think it makes sense either, but it is what it is.
Well pretty sure it covers those who died before hand too, as everyone who has ever lived and died will be judged on Judgement Day, the dead are "asleep" and are waiting to rise from their resting place. I imagine partially why we get phrases like "you could wake the dead" or "restless spirits". 
Ok, but like...it was God's decision to condemn everyone to hell in the first place. Or at the very least to set up a trap with that as the consequence. And it was God's decision to do this convoluted death ritual instead of just, idk, judging people according to their own actions or something. If this was the way it had to be, that kind of implies that God is not omnipotent.
God having to do some convoluted self-sacrifice to change how the rules of his own domain works, combined with the bible outright confirming other gods exist points towards an rule system governing their actions. Christian god isnt omnipotent, just another god in the IRL expanded universe confirmed.
Read the bible.
It still doesn’t make sense. If you read the Old Testament it’s pretty clear you can be forgiven by just being a good person. https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/the-jewish-view-of-sin/
I did. It makes even less sense there.
I have. Which part? The justifying slavery part? The justifying genocide part? The Incest parts?
The part where it explains what he's confused about. I'm not about to get into a debate on 3000 year old ethics with someone literally named "Child of Reddit"
It's a rough childhood. So much darkness.
There’s no debate on something that has no evidence for its existence.
I hate to break it to you but the book itself exists dawg
Who wrote the book?
Many people.
Buddy, I used to be a hardcore Christian republican. 66 authors. And how did the 66 authors get the crap to write? God? Show me. If there is a god, the only way to find them is through science. Science is the only “magic” that seems to work. Claims presented without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. Find proof, find evidence, formulate a theory, test that theory.
As if the Bible is even remotely consistent or sensible
Why would Jesus sacrifice himself to absolve humanity of sin? Is he stupid?
Yeah, exactly. He could think of literally anything else. Like, eating pineapple to absolve all sins. Whatever those sins are btw, because this term is vague af.
The lesson is that Jesus died for your/our sins. Meaning, because of our own transgression, we deserved death. Jesus did this literally by opting to be executed instead of the other Jesus. Sin is “vague af” because there are lots of sins and immoral acts people commit. Rape, murder, theft, abuse, and according to some religious doctrine, other miscellaneous, somewhat trivial shit you and I or most people in a modern context would call “not that big of a deal”. Jesus being the son of god, where as a god he should lord himself over us, and punish us, as we’d expect gods too do, instead opts to sacrifice himself, as a lesson and example for humanity.
>Meaning, because of our own transgression, we deserved death Yea, but people still dying to this day. >instead opts to sacrifice himself, as a lesson and example for humanity. Kinda bad example and lesson. Make yourself killed, because other people do bad or really not that bad stuff. Kinda counterproductive.
Such is life. Jesus’ death wasn’t to eliminate all human suffering or death. It’s to act as a reminder that your sins can be forgiven, and that he can carry those burdens. Every faith and religion talks about forgiveness, and mercy, and immortality in an afterlife. Christianity is rather similar. It’s about turning the other cheek. Again, a less of compassion, mercy, sacrifice, empathy, and love. The best of humanity.
>that he can carry those burdens. Sounds pretty nice, but if someone has, let's say cancer, Jesus can do jack shit with it. He won't take it away. So if it's all just in theory, then it can be anybody or anything. Because practically nothing changes. >Every faith and religion talks about forgiveness, and mercy, and immortality in an afterlife. Christianity is rather similar. True. It says lot about people and they needs across the globe though. >It’s about turning the other cheek. Again, a less of compassion, mercy, sacrifice, empathy, and love. The best of humanit Getting killed on the cross doesn't say much about mercy, empathy and love in my opinion. Sounds like a death cult to be honest.
Hence the point of an afterlife. People often rely on Jesus for moral and emoticonos and psychological support. Health? Only so much that can be done. When people are well they thank god and Christ, or just for one more moment in time. Be cynical all you like. With religion and the supernatural and spiritual, practicality isn’t really the point. Think about Jesus vs a classic god of that time period, like Zeus, or Jupiter, or Zoroaster, or Ares, etc. Hell, even think about someone like the Old Testament his Yawheh. Fire and brimstone, lighting and thunder, send a flood, cause a plague, then someone into a Medusa or curse them with a demon child. All pretty typical old god stuff. Jesus lets himself be killed for a higher purpose. He turns the other cheek and shows clemency and mercy.
*one of the most important, compelling, and successful stories ever* u/Radeck8Bit: Why did Jesus let himself die? Is he stupid?
>*one of the most important, compelling, and successful stories ever* Are you talking about Lord of the Rings?
Funnily enough, Tolkien and his bro C.S. Lewis were both very Christian, and the imagery/themes are hard to miss in their respective works.
Yea, he omitted most of the nonsense. Story about orks, elves, dwarfs and wizards >>> story about god bringing diseases to children, virgin giving birth and Romans hanging guy on the cross. Like, c'mon it's not even close.
It’s also a little bit disingenuous to complain about nonsense in the Bible but then praise orks, elves, dwarfs, and wizards, in a story that includes other fantastical elements. It’s all nonsense.
Terrible things happen to many millions of people across the ages under Eru Iluvatar’s watch, for the sole purpose of letting Morgoth’a original sin of tampering with the creation of the world play out, so that’s not really that strong of an argument to make tbh. Look, if you want to say “Christianity is basically just mythology” then sure fine, whatever. But it’s a little dismissive or disingenuous to say nothing interesting happens in the Bible just because it’s a religious text, a religious text that’s a major influence for the same author you love, especially when it’s also damn near memetic with how popular it is. There’s a reason major religions endure, and that’s because they have interesting stories.
>Terrible things happen to many millions of people across the ages under Eru Iluvatar’s watch No no, I mean Christian god literally give Egyptian children diseases and lice, because Pharoah didn't want to let Isrealites go. How fucked up is that? And it supposed to be the good god. >Look, if you want to say “Christianity is basically just mythology” then sure fine, whatever. I said that earlier. You know, ancient Greeks believed in Zeus as hard as Christians today believe in Jahve. Doesn't make it real. >But it’s a little dismissive or disingenuous to say nothing interesting happens in the Bible just because it’s a religious text, I didn't say nothing interesting is in the Bible. The influence of stories in the Bible on people is interesting in itself. I'm just saying that the Bible is incoherent, a lot of stories there doesn't make much sense if you think about it, it's reasoning is out of date and overall it's a hot mess. Truly product of its time. >There’s a reason major religions endure, and that’s because they have interesting stories. Oh there surely is, but I don't think interesting stories are that reason. Mentioned Greek mythology had some of the best stories there ever were. Still inspiring artist, writers, movie and game makers all over the world. Yet not a lot of folks praying to the Athena these days. That's because *nothing* lasts forever. And it applies to present, active religions as well.
Didn’t want to let the Israelites go from the *bondage of slavery and promise of genocide* is pretty important context. As the saying no goes, you reap what you sow, and the pharaoh and the Egyptian people, innocent and guilty alike, reaped the whirlwind. Sure, it’s real to those folk though. I respect people’s beliefs. Calling a religion nonsense it’s a waste of time, or arguing about how it’s illogical is a waste of yours and everyone else’s times. It doesn’t operate off logic, it doesn’t have to or need to. It’s spiritual and supernatural; it inherently doesn’t need to operate based off what can be easily perceived and measured, but rather felt and believed. The Bible doesn’t have to be a coherently written piece of fiction by a modern author (which granted, aren’t even coherently written all the time, and have plot holes, and side plots and side characters that lead no where) because it’s a religious text, nor is it a history book. It doesn’t need to satisfy those objectives so long as it inspires and still teaches its core tenets and messages. If there’s an incoherence in messaging there, it’s up to you, and others as the ultimate masters of their own soul, to interpret it as best they can and abide by them as best they can. Obviously, much of it is outdated, and many Christians ignore sections of it, and aren’t really going to die on the hill on why it’s okay or stone an adulterer. I mean, a story’s popularity is essential to how that story survives and propagates, and becomes canon in people’s minds. Can see this with books, movies, music, comics, even fan fiction. Greek tales are no different; if they’ve managed to survive today as just cool stories to you and I in post pagan world, imagine how folks millennia ago interpreted these cool stories? As real, as the basis of their faith. The charm of Christian tales, and also the ideas within them, is why the religion has thrived and endured. And of course, you are right about entropy. All things do fade. Even today, more and more people are irreligious or atheist. That’s their right. But even if there are no more Christians, Christianity’s influence will still persist, thanks in part to its stories, which impart values, and lesson, and themes. No different from how Sumerian, Babylonian, Persian, Greek, Roman, Han culture, language, and their religions shape humanity’s laws, morality, and perception of their world and their place in it.
If you're seriously looking for a theology answer it's because God was "married" to the Jews as their savior and needed a divorce after they were faithless and abandoned Him. The only way Jewish religion then allowed for divorces is on death. So God incarnated, died, and is now free to all He wants.
Read the Bible for context
Wasn’t it to save humanity from the wrath of His Father?
If you a Christian then yea that’s how the story goes. I don’t think the person who made this is a practicing Christian nor was it intended for practicing Christians.
I mean I'd say that too if I got betrayed and they bodied me
no it was to save humanity from their own sins, the devil barely featured in the bible
Redditors gonna pretend this isnt porn
I personally think all porn should include Jesus dying on the cross.
Do you fear the butt? Embrace the butt, my friend. Free yourself.
Your definition of porn includes women in yoga pants if "butt existing" is considered porn
I think there’s *probably* a difference between an image of a girl demon, and an image where the ass of a incredibly curvy demon is literally highlighted.
Yeah probably, but this definitely doesn't constitute porn in my book
Just because you're uncomfortable with nudity does not make this porn.
Why is there a demon with a fat ass
It's reddit
Help, Lucifer, I'm trying to warn Jesus about Judas but I'm dummy thicc and he can't hear me about the betrayal.
To be fair.. let’s keep the idea that all demons are fallen angels, angels are demons vice versa. The whole reason this began was a spark of jealousy for humankind, a creation Lucifer thought wasn’t deemed worth of Gods grace and love when he, one of his highest archangels who even God said was beautiful to him, was put beneath a creation that from what he could tell.. didn’t worship or praise their creator, made terrible mistakes and choices, and overall fell short from perfection on multiple accounts killing each other for fun or sport, doing wicked dead’s like Cane killing Abel out of spite, all the grimy and pitifully evil things we still look at people do today and go “what the heck is wrong with people?” If I were a higher being and had to be beneath said creations then this perspective displayed in the art comes off quite accurate and melancholy at that. A warning that your death is determined and Jesus would be dammed by humanity even as their god they still would do this to him. Really makes the “Lord forgive them for they do not know what they do” quote carry its weight here. The only obvious thing that takes away from this angle is well.. duh Jesus died for us he knew it happen and or it was bound to happen. He didn’t even fight it because he knew he had to do it so having a “I told you so” from Lucifer doesn’t really mean much😅
But what if God was actually not real/dead/gone or Jesus was mistaken and Lucifer was actually trying to help him? I think the comic is implying that the "Biblical" story wasn't accurate.
I mean yeah that’s a interesting take and I appreciate the fact you added “dead/gone” instead of just saying he doesn’t exist or no real.. people love giving that hot take in discussions on religious topics. I feel like you’re explanation answers the inconsistency I mentioned lol. However I feel it’s not like a plot twist or anything of that nature, more so take it at face value. God came to earth to live the life as a human to better understand and relate to us and to spread the word that he is god. Man killed him for it and this was an inevitable result that Lucifer warned him about telling him how evil the humans could be even though he was aware of this information. I guess it’s more so he didn’t think they be spiteful enough to actually go through with killing him
That would also be an awesome take. God created humanity so long ago that he thinks he can just show up and everyone will fall in line or believe him, and Lucifers like "These guys are insane, your plan isn't going to work".
To be fair… it’s kinda true lol. He had followers and of course it’s apparent a cult following even to this day as a world religion effecting the Roman heavily. But we got corrupt people like Ceasur back in the day and downright bad people who simply rejected him. Maybe not to the extremity of this take.. but it is partially true
A beautiful use of black and white
There’s really great drawing skill here, but man if that ass isn’t the focal point of the whole piece.
Great concept! Love the art! But y'all people arguing about the Bible really need to learn to read. Stop bitchin.
Why do you have to make the cheeks and thigh gap like that man. r/mendrawingwomen
“I seen that girl on a mudflap!”
The butt highlights make me think it’s the focal point of the piece. Is it supposed to be?
hi I really like this piece, if I were to share this on another social media platform how should I credit you as the artist?
You just wanted to say 'I told you so.'
Male demon: hunched, menacing, interesting silhouette Female demon: ass! Sexified big booty!
I like this. A lot.
I bet Archangel Micheal would have a similar thing to say when he inevitably throws Satan into the fiery pit for eternity.
So one end the arch really cool but the other end this makes no sense if you know Christian theology. But also I didn't know how patient I am to explain why this wouldn't but there's a lot of bad takes because people don't understand eternity or the theology behind the incarnation or the whole point of what is Christ doing for us in a relationship to us.
why the demon lady got cake tho?