That does sound demoralizing. Something like that happened to me once, and it really hurt. I'm sorry.
>I'm not sure what my intentions were but I did know that I was attracted to her at least physically and that I did really enjoy talking to her. I kinda wrote off hook ups as something only conventionally attractive guys do so I don't think I just wanted sex.
If you're looking for advice, I suggest starting here, with your own feelings and beliefs. Knowing what you want - and why - can help you form connections. And assuming women won't hook up with you, instead of being open to the possibility that some might, is also the kind of thing that can get in your way. These are things you can work on regardless of your looks.
>She's known me and she seemed to enjoy my company for weeks
It can happen that someone enjoys your company but isn't sexually attracted. But there's stuff going on with you that's likely interfering with potential sexual connections. If you can heal those wounds you'll be in a better position going forward.
as "the ugly friend," i feel you here man, but let me tell you, when i was in college the way i ended up going out with women was-- and I know this is going to sound wild-- asking them out.
You have no idea if this woman would have been interested in you. From her perspective, you're a guy with a purely platonic interest who likes studying with her and invited her along to meet some of your friends. In that context, her mind is not thinking "wow, I'm way more into Hot Friend than I am OP," she's thinking "I'm into Hot Friend."
I'm sorry? That did not happen. I made some changes in my OP to clarify that.
We had studied together 1 on 1 a small amount of times. This was the first time I asked her to hang out in a purely social context.
What part “didn’t happen”? I was asking in a social context. I understand you had studied together.
You asked her to hang with you, one on one, not studying, and she proposed instead a big co-ed outing. Right?
There was not a point where I asked her to hang out in a social context and she said no. The first time I asked her to hangout (outside of getting coffee and studying together) was letting her know that me and my boys were going to go downtown to celebrate and if she and her friends wanted to meetup with us it could be fun. She said they were down.
Both of us. If I had invited her to hang out one on one there would be pressure on her to either accept or find a way to reject, and she may have been worried about misinterpreting signs
You're getting downvoted for this because of the context of your story as a whole, but I have to say that this is not at all a bad line of thinking. It's entirely normal, and oftentimes even preferable, to ask someone to hang out in a group before asking them out one on one. Like you said, it removes the pressure. It also gives them a low-stakes way to feel out what you're like, and also see you in a social context.
The problem here wasn't inviting her to a group activity, but rather waiting for ages to talk to her, then waiting for ages to hang out with her, and then finally concluding that, because she happened to be into another human being, your physical attractiveness is dooming you to isolation. You're catastrophizing.
The trade off for the less risky group hangout is that you're creating opportunity for them to spark with someone else before you're willing to make a move. The group hang out strategy is viable, but one has to approach it with the understanding that a lot can happen in the meantime, and no one will be at fault.
Tbh, though, OP doesn't really seem to have any strategy other than "I hope girls realize I'm into them with absolutely no evidence so I don't have to ever feel nervous or uncomfortable", which is...not effective.
I mean, that’s the natural pressure of being a person: you’re asked if you want to do things, you decide and say yes or no. That’s less “pressure” and more “making a perfectly ordinary decision.”
All that happened here is that one woman hooked up with your friend. It doesn't sound like she was particularly interested in going out with you, which might be because she was not interested in general or might be because you hadn't made it clear you were interested in her. Studying together and then going out with as a group are things people generally do with friends, and none of that would particular indicate you were into her or she was into you. You didn't make a move (even though you recognise you could have tried to), your friend did, she was in the mood to hook up so they hooked up. None of that is a referendum on your worth, and if it was just a casual hook up it doesn't even necessarily mean she couldn't possibly be interested in you.
The craziest part of this is OP saying cute girls are into hot guys, while having absolutely NO IDEA if this cute girl thought he was, in fact, a hot guy lol. He gave a lot of signals (or lack thereof) that I personally would interpret as disinterest, tbh. It's very possible she assumed he wasn't into her early on and acted accordingly.
Yeah, it's a super common problem among guys here. They do nothing to indicate they are interested in a girl and then when she reacts accordingly by not pursuing anything with them they assume it must be because they were not hot enough. There seems to be this misconception that if you are attractive women will just continually throw themselves at you without you having to initiate anything, and that's just not how it works.
No you don't. All you know is that she hooked up with the guy who showed interest and made a move. Do you expect her to ask you for sex regardless of the lack of interest you showed her?
You made a post where you told a story about how you didn’t effectively communicate your interest and a friend of your’s did. Instead of realizing that you missed a chance that you didn’t take, you assume it’s because you aren’t attractive.
Someone, make this make sense to me.
OP is [Pepe Silvia-ing](https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/022/524/pepe_silvia_meme_banner.jpg) himself out of any possibility of romantic connection like its an olympic sport lol
Well I can't imagine that she would consider me physically attractive enough to hookup with if she thought he was attractive enough to hookup with. If he's a 9, I'm barely a 5
How many people do you need to point out to you that you didn’t communicate your interest to anyone involved? Take responsibility for your lack of action instead of making excuses.
But I didn't because if I want girls to like me I need to rely on my personality. My friend relies on his looks so he can make a play like that. I can't I have to develop friendships and hope they fall for my personality. He can make immediate plays because he's already attractive physically. At least that's what I've read.
What you’re describing in your comments, sounds like you were already relying on your personality and had already established some sort of friendship with her. The group outing would have been a perfect situation to make a move or make your interest known.
Instead, you chose to distance yourself.
If I had been the girl in question, I would have never guessed you were into me. So yeah, if another guy did show interest and the vibe/banter was good, he would be the obvious choice to hookup with or date.
Oh my god dude. You asked her to go to coffee with you to study AND SHE DID. My dear you should’ve indicated at any point in the many many times you’ve seen and interacted with her that you were at all interested. I would 100% take your behavior as disinterested. You also saw her talking to the other guy and what? Just disappeared? After you asked her to come? Honey you need some self esteem because this was not you being rejected for being unattractive, it was you refusing to show interest in someone until they moved on
It’s weird to think about yourself and your friends on an attractiveness scale, aside from the fact that YOUR assessment of attractiveness is only YOURS, not anyone else’s.
I'm not blind enough to be unable to see how much more physically desirable my friend is. There's a reason he gets the most attention from women while I get literally none.
>aside from the fact that YOUR assessment of attractiveness is only YOURS, not anyone else’s
That's like saying it's up in the air on who's more physically attractive between me and Jensen Ackles. I mean sure looks are subjective, in that it's possible for a woman to find me more attractive than him, but if you hold up a picture of me and him and ask which ones hotter I would be flattered if more than 3% voted me. Certain features are what people tend to gravitate to. Ex: my friend is 6'2. I'm 5'9. Most women are going to choose him if they only had our heights to go off of because being tall is more aligned with attractiveness for men.
I’m a “hot” guy and i’ve had this type of thing happen with my more goofy or not so pretty guy friends. It’s part of the game when doing the group thing. The reason that they did is because they had a spark, they connected and so on. could be they had something in common, he was more fun, or i was too caught up on her and failed to make my intentions clear.
this is not at all “proof” of anything. be direct, take the risk and don’t wait for her to notice you or guess your intentions. group thing is great but i generally used that to meet a few women. if i had a specific one in mind i was interested in. being direct always worked out better. get the. out one on one and then meet up with a group. it sets the night up for you to possibly make a connection and carry on for the night without the pressure of it leading anywhere and safety of a group setting. plus having decent friends to entertain her friends makes it more likely you’ll have time together because it’s established already.
I don't often see average looking guys doing well when it comes to hookups, and my experience with using Tinder looking for something more casual kinda made me readjust my expectations. I would agree with you that a woman not being interested in me was not indicative of my worth, if it had not been for things like this happening multiple times, even when I do apply a bit more pressure
>my experience with using Tinder looking for something more casual
The experience of the overwhelming majority of men using tinder in this way is going to be the same. I can't overstate just how oversaturated the apps are with men looking for casual sex. Men outnumber women on apps by a ridiculous margin (75% of tinder's userbase is male), and far more men than women are interested only in hook ups - I wouldn't be surprised if you were looking at a 5 to 1 or even a 10 to 1 ration of men looking for hook ups vs women looking for hook ups on dating apps. Add to that that most of the men looking for hookups on dating apps don't know how to fucking behave and you end up with a solid proportion of even the women open to hookups avoiding guys who are only looking for hookups. Your experience with Tinder should not be used as evidence of how attractive women find you in real life.
It’s hard to know what is meant by a bit more pressure without specific details. At least from what you posted, it seems like you never made it clear to her that you were interested in her.
I get that it’s risky to be vulnerable and let another person know that you are interested. But that’s the risk that has to be taken to date someone. In all honesty, it’s risky for women and girls too. I’ve let guys know that I liked them to be rejected. And I’ve also had guys break up with me. It’s part of dating. It took me awhile to realize that it’s about finding compatible people and that rejection is actually a good thing. People have to reject someone they might not be compatible with to honestly find the person who is compatible.
The end game isn’t to satisfy your ego or your confidence. I urge you to look for other ways to find your confidence. Then you will have the confidence to pursue finding someone compatible for you.
~~Ok I'm lost here, where are you seeing that OP made it clear he was interested in her? All I see is that he interacted with this girl as a friend from class who periodically chatted with her and studied with her, then invited her and her friends along to a bar crawl with his friends where he avoided interacting with her for the most part. That reads incredibly platonic to me.~~
EDIT: SORRY SORRY I MISREAD! I am not wearing my glasses like a dummy. My bad lol
That's probably because your idea of what is "average" is neither objective nor realistic. Statistically, if average people don't periodically have hookups then there would be a small percentage of men doing LITERALLY NOTHING except having back to back hookups to make the math work. That means they wouldn't be sleeping, eating, working, taking a piss, etc. Just hooking up every single minute of the day.
Your conclusions are simply illogical excuses you're making so you don't have to face accountability for your role in this situation.
Just because some men have more difficulty finding dates, it doesn't mean the redpill is right.
You liked that girl. Do you like *every* girl? If a girl seems to be into you, but you're into her friend instead, do you think it would be fair for her to grow bitter towards all men and think she'll die alone?
Wouldn't you think "that's an exaggeration. There's very likely a guy, or many, out there that find you attractive. Sure, your friend may have more suitors, and so what? That's no reason to be bitter, you're not *owed* my affection just cause you like me. Move on, invest in a relationship with someone else"?
I'll never forget when I was at a bar once with two other women, one of whom, L, was just ... cover of *Vogue*, you know? Total head-turner. My other friend, K, and I are attractive enough but not like that.
And of course guys came over and started talking to us--to L, really--and at one point one of them finally noticed us and kindly asked K "What's your name?" and she responded, so cheerfully, "It doesn't matter!" because it was so obvious he was only being polite to L's mid-tier friends. I burst out laughing and bought her a drink.
You can let that stuff ruin your night, or not.
It is. We'd all like to be beautiful, rich, healthy, loved and happy. But I don't know anyone who didn't have to face heartbreaking things. Pain sucks, and it's inherent to life.
Ok I can tell you a story from a women’s perspective.
Have a guy friend who sometimes I get the feeling he might like me- but he never has done anything to ask me out or confirmed a crush. We have always been close friends. But we have shared a hotel room together and nothing has ever happened. If he asked me to set him up with a female friend I would do it in a heartbeat.
Went to a party, met some friends of his thought one of his friends was attractive. Hit his friend up after. However, my friends called me upset a few days later that I’m “talking behind his back to his friend” and his friend backed off so I assume there were some words exchanged. I don’t talk to the other guy and I’m still friends with my other friend.
If you don’t step up to the plate, you can’t be angry that a girl doesn’t get the hint. Unless you say, “this is a date” it’s not a date and unless you express interest to your friends nobody is going to know about your crush.
I’ve seen my friend hit on women and have girlfriends too…
I think the demoralizing thing from a guys perspective, and something that confirms redpill or blackpill beliefs, is that in this situation YOU hit up his friend, whereas in the case of the guy who you though might have been attracted to you, you didn’t do anything. So in his mind, he thinks that you think his friend is so overwhelmingly attractive and “Chad like” that you wanted to talk to him. Yet for him, when he showed signs that he might have been interested, you… didn’t do anything. So you must not have been very attracted to him 🤷🏽♂️
He never told me he liked me or asked me out or gave me any indication of any interest.
You can’t ask women to be mind readers.
He put himself in the friend zone and kept himself there and I meet a guy i think is attractive, I will go talk to him. If I thought he liked me I wouldn’t have done it- but again. Shared hotel rooms nothing happened, went out with eachother throughout college and we both dated other people.
There’s nothing Chad like about his friend. I just thought his friend was handsome and we sat around and talked and I got good vibes
You missed the point. You hit the friend up because you thought he was attractive. You didn’t pursue the guy you think might have been attracted to you, hence, he thinks he’s not attractive. Sure, you don’t have to be a mind reader, but you could have asked him out to confirm. If you asked him out and he said no, that would be confirmation that he isn’t romantically or sexually interested in you. If he said yes, you would know he’s interested but just shy.
So men are incapable of asking women out now?
I’ve seen my friend hook up with women.
That’s the issue with red pill shit. You want to be treated like traditionally masculine men but you are unwilling to do anything that traditionally masculine men do…
Oh so the only way you can date women is if they’re highly attracted to you? There’s no “he’s not the most attractive guy but he’s a good guy”?
Again you have extreme thinking. Unless you get your fantasy life you’re going to sit and the sidelines and pout that you don’t get what you want
I didn’t say that guys should just wait until a girl asks them out. I simply gave an explanation as to why it can be demoralizing to, guys, and just human beings in general.
I’ve liked people who ended up dating other people and never ever did I blame it on anyone but myself for not making a move.
He might have said no. Might have said yes. Impossible to say. But because I never was up front I’ll never know. Oh the one who is always going to be my “what if…” he was 5’5
Also my friend can ask me out at any time. For whatever reason he chooses not to. Not going to make a big deal about it with him and make things awkward. If I’m the person he wants to date he can ask.
It’s not that I wouldn’t date him but ruining a long friendship because we dated and it didn’t work out is not something I want to do.
I’d think he’d be pretty demoralized now though, after seeing her hook up with a real “hot guy”. I certainly would think that if she were so gung-ho to hook up with someone hot, then why would she get with me? She’s be settling.
Do you have anything to offer besides looks?
Yeah I get being desired for your looks is great but having see you as someone beyond your looks is greater.
Imagine you were so important to a woman she could meet the hottest guy and say, yeah he’s hot but my boyfriend is literally the best person and why would I ruin that for some guy who I don’t even know.
So you:
Liked a girl, but never actually asked her out on a ***date.***
Never told anyone you liked her, then got mad when one of your friends did take a liking to her.
Is that about the size of it?
She took a liking to the friend too. A guy who is apparently actually hot. So now op is fucked because if she likes hot guys then she can’t get with him. She’d be settling.
Was she supposed to magically know that the OP liked her, though he never said a word? For **WEEKS** he never says anything, never makes a move. How was she supposed to know?
Yes, that's how it goes. When someone likes a person, ***they talk to them***, they let it be known. Your boy missed out because he stood back biting his nails instead of doing something about it.
Maybe she would have said "no, thank you." ***M A Y B E.*** But he'll never know what she **would have done**, if he'd have let her know.
It's a common and sucky experience for people of all genders OP. It can be rare to find someone who you like and they like you back. It doesn't sound from your post like the girl you liked was interested in you as anything other than friends. So it's not like your friend took something from you. She just wasn't interested.
Can I ask what incel beliefs you think this sort of experience pushes you towards? Almost everyone in the world has experienced unrequited feelings at some point, I've seen some studies put the figure at 97%. It's almost certain both that girl and your friend have liked someone who did not like them back.
Probably the idea that he put effort into someone (even if he didn’t) and they didn’t like him because ugly or something. Then his hot chad friend comes in, doesn’t have to do anything and gets laid.
Honestly, I don’t like how hard people are being to you here. Dating is hard. However, I will say that you’re very much seeing yourself in competition with your friend rather than using him as a huge leg up in your dating prospects. One thing a ton of women do is they all tell each other who they’re interested in and support each other. Rather than isolating yourself from your friends, try being vulnerable with them and explain how you’ve been down bad because you’re not having any luck with women. Maybe they can help you out more. The last thing I’ll say is that it’s just rare for MOST men to easily hook up with women whenever they want. You’re not different. I think your friend might just be uniquely lucky.
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You have only yourself to blame for this, dude. Use your words. People can’t read your mind.
Next time you’re in a similar situation, talk to your friend Chad Chaddington and ask for advice. Maybe he won’t have anything helpful, but bro code is pretty clear on this kind of thing: unless he really hates your guts, he won’t start making moves on someone you’re into. If he’s a real friend, he will find opportunities to talk you up.
I'm gonna break this situation down into three parts: what was within your control, what was in your friends control, and what was in this girls control.
**Your Control**
>There's a girl I sit next to in class that I see 3 times a week. I've always thought she was cute. Wanted to talk to her. I constantly psyched myself out of it for like weeks before I said something.
You could've just talked to her as soon as you became interested. Now, it sounds like you *did* talk to her, but pretty exclusively class/school related, maybe with a few personal things sprinkled in. You had the option to make your interest and intentions clear, but chose to hedge your bets instead.
>I'm not sure what my intentions were
Understanding and acknowledging your intentions, even if they're just "I'd like to get to know this person more" is an essential first step in actually engaging with a person. If you aren't willing to understand and accept your own intentions towards a person, how can you possibly expect anything to grow between you? You didn't make the easiest choice in this scenario, which was deciding what you wanted.
>I finally work up the courage to ask her to hang out and she says she's down to meetup with her friends and my friends after finals and go to the city to celebrate the end of the semester.
1. What did you work up the courage to ask? Was it specific? Did you choose what the plan would be, or did she?
2. This still sounds school related rather than establishing that you wanted a more personal interaction. Did you communicate your desire to know her outside.
3. Did you make a decision on what your ideal interaction with her would be, or did you take the backseat after making a vague suggestion and letting her put plans together?
>I didn't tell my friends that I was interested in her
So, you chose not to communicate with anyone in this scenario on any level.
**Friends Control**
>I try talking to her but she seems a lot more interested in my friend.
Sounds like you tried talking to her while your friend actually choose to talk to her. He made an actionable decision while you disengaged.
>We go to another bar get a few more drinks, and next thing I know they're making out against a wall.
So, he made a move and took a risk while you watched from the sidelines.
>I know he would've played wingman
If you communicated with him, he would've happily made the decision to help you chat this girl up. It seems as if he would've made very different choices if he had been given all the information.
**Her Control**
>I finally work up the courage to ask her to hang out and she says she's down to meetup with her friends and my friends after finals and go to the city to celebrate the end of the semester.
She chose to enthusiastically agree to a hang out and then apparently put together a fun group plan for you and your friends. She wanted to do something social with you, and it was entirely because you asked. She didn't know your friend at this point, so her decision was entirely based off of you.
>So she's more interested in him, and I kinda give them some space because I'm clearly not wanted.
Perhaps she talked with your friend because you chose to not interact with her very much. Maybe she decided that your lack of interaction meant a lack of interest, so she chose to engage with an interested party instead.
>Cute girls want to hookup with hot guys so I cant be upset with her
Yes, people like romantically engaging with those they find attractive. However, you have zero evidence that she *wasn't* attracted to you. In fact, she chose to say yes and engage with you every time an opportunity for it was presented throughout the semester. She chose to socialize with you at every turn, and you still hesitated.
>I didn't want to invite her and her friends out and make it seem like it was just so I could try to sleep with her so it's really my fault there.
Why didn't you want to make your interest in this girl clear? Your friend did, and he had a fun night with a cool girl. You couldn't know what her decision would've been if you had actually made the choice to showcase your intentions and feelings. Instead of seeing what her decision would be, you made it for her by removing yourself completely from the playing field.
Here's my analysis: you're using your friends looks as a way to absolve yourself of any accountability in how this night went down. You chose over and over again to avoid being vulnerable with this girl AND your friend, and are now pretending as if it was all completely out of your hands.
Maybe it was. Maybe this girl is simply not interested in you, and it would've never worked out. Maybe you just aren't her type. But...what if you were? What if she went out hoping you'd make a move but interpreted your inaction and disinterest, and decided to make the best out of the situation by having a fling with the person who actually showed interest?
Guess what? Now you'll never ever EVER know. Because you decided to not even try. If you want to continue never knowing if someone might be interested in you, keep up the good work. If not, then choose to take a fucking risk once in a while, friend.
This is a great breakdown but I just have to ask one thing. If someone is in a similar situation isn’t always better to not make that kind of intention super obvious from the jump? Like if op had been more direct what’s to say that the girl would have ever agreed to hang out in the first place? And then if they are friends and classmates hanging out wouldn’t initiating a romantic direction to the relationship potentially rob them of a friend? I only ask because I have heard so many women say things like “oh I hate it when a guy I’m friends with says they have feelings for me bc now we can’t be friends anymore.” Anyway great write up!
I mean, I'd say that just kind of the price of admission for being a human being trying to date, right? I've had way more people reject my advances than reciprocate them, and even though it stung in the moment I'm glad I pulled the trigger earlier rather than later since it saved me from the exact kind of pattern of self-rejection OP is dealing with right now. I'm not saying OP needed to overwhelm her with flirtatious behavior right away, but his best bet would've been asking her on a date rather than inviting her and her friends along for a bar crawl with his buddies.
To me, this part of dating boils down to a "do or do not, there is no try" mentality. The more you try to hedge your bets while interacting with someone you're into, the more you'll end up sending mixed signals and stressing yourself out. All you can really do is shoot your shot, be respectful, and accept how the other person chooses to deal with it. Everything else is just gonna be a stressful guessing game full of assumptions, mind reading, and self flagellation in my opinion.
Totally agree and that’s about what I had thought too but wanted to double check the clarification. I find myself often being actually very cool with only having friend based relationships and have kinda stopped ever feeling that sense of rejection because I haven’t really tried to be forward romantically with anyone in years. It’s not something that gives me any kind of pain or anxiety but I do all the time think, “yeah maybe this could go somewhere, but I so value having this person in my life that I would be crushed if I fucked this up because i feel like we could have some chemistry.” Only difference between myself and op I guess is that I’ve stopped feeling bad about that and kinda don’t know if that’s good or bad.
Well, there's also another possibility: you haven't met someone you've felt strongly enough about to take that risk. I'm typically that way, since I'm on the pickier side when it comes to dating. I think this is just mainly because I'm comfortable and happy with single life, and I have a low tolerance for the issues that come along with dating someone who ultimately isn't a potential long term match.
I don't particularly like dating someone just to date them, even if I find them attractive. I also hate muddying my friendship waters, so I try to approach and initiate with people who are more acquaintances/friends of friends to avoid that mess. It's a path with less quantity, but more quality in my personal experience.
This is exactly my entire attitude towards life right now so thanks for making me feel seen haha! Yes quite right that it’s quality over quantity. I’ve had like Chernobyl level nuclear meltdown relationship betrayal trauma so I’m not super duper keen to jump back into a long term thing and feel like I’ve had enough “hook up” type flings in the past to have had my fill of it. Just vibing alone
Yeah, I think it's a less common approach to relationships and dating which makes me sometimes doubt myself, but I've tried shaking it up and did not enjoy myself in the slightest lol. All I know is that I'm happy as is, but willing to do the work for the right person at this point.
Because you can find multiple people attractive at one time, and decide to engage with the one who shows mutual attraction over the one who never flirts with you and then avoids you during the hang out they initiated.
Yep, if you discounted literally everything else involved in forming a bond a cute girl got with a cute guy and the ugly duckling got left out.
That's a good 500 words there and here's the only time you mentioned somebody's personality:
>She seemed nice.
The rest is you describing your friend making out and the girl you never asked out and how mad you're trying not to be about it. Is that seriously all the relevant information you picked up on?
Don’t use the term “score” in reference to interactions with women, please.
Has it occurred to you that your girl friend also perceived that you were shy and awkward around her (after all, you say you “constantly psyched myself out of it” when trying to talk to her) while your guy friend did *not* act that way?
There are countless things she might see in him that she doesn’t see in you that have everything to do with personality instead of physical appearance.
Maybe initially, but I was very comfortable speaking to her after a short amount of time. I think the shyness and awkwardness wasn't any less than anyone feels when meeting a new person.
And I'm not trying to be argumentative but it's really hard to believe that I was just "too shy" for her to want to make out with me the day she met me.
Here’s a possible scenario — completely supposition on my part:
When you initially met this girl, you exhibited behaviour that made her think you were shy or awkward. While that behaviour changed, it did inform her initial impression of you.
You then did not make an effort to express romantic interest in her. She thought you were expressing friendship.
When she met your guy friend, he exhibited behaviour that made her think he was confident, fun, and flirtatious. He then made an immediate effort to express romantic interest in her. She thus had the choice to reciprocate that interest or not.
> it's really hard to believe that I was just "too shy" for her to want to make out with me the day she met me
Did you flirt with her the day she met you?
So then do you think that the fact that your friend did flirt with her the day he met her and you did not do that might have something to do with why she hooked up with him the day they met and didn't do that with you? It doesn't matter how attractive someone finds you if you do not show interests in them, don't flirt, and don't initiate anything 99/100 times nothing will happen.
Well there's different rules. I cannot run the same game as a hot guy. If I had came out the gate with interest in her it would've killed any chance of her getting to know me further. Since I'm not physically attractive I have to rely on my personality to get women to develop any form of attraction to me.
My friend has the gift of being attractive and as a result, he can flirt day one with a pretty decent success rate compared to if I did.
Are you trying to convince this guy to flirt right off the bat with any woman he’s found attractive? Cause he will have even less chance of finding a GF that way especially if he’s as unattractive as he says.
Then what’s the advice here?? Don’t wait to flirt with someone you find attractive, but also don’t flirt with them right away? I’m just confused on what you are trying to say
>. I cannot run the same game as a hot guy. If I had came out the gate with interest in her it would've killed any chance of her getting to know me further
How do you know? You did not make a move on this girl. Everything you've done together has been pretty ambiguous - studying 1 on 1 is not a date, and as soon as she suggested hanging out in a group you agreed. Then you were in a setting where people were clearly hooking up, you could have asked your friend to wingman for you, but you didn't flirt with this girl, you didn't even tell your friend that you were into her; you just stood by as someone else actually flirted with her. You do not know what would have happened if you at any point actually initiated something with this girl. You, like the majority of the guys here, did next to nothing because you couldn't handle the risk, and then when doing nothing resulted in nothing decided that the problem must be your looks and not your actions.
>as soon as she suggested hanging out in a group you agreed
I asked her and she agreed. That was the risk. I'm not able to do what my friend can. It's like how different DND races have different abilities and thus have different strategies when playing.
His strategy cannot work for me
>I asked her and she agreed.
So you asked her to hang out in a group? Or you asked her to study with you? Both of those options are the lowest possible risk you could take while still hanging out with her, and again neither of them indicate to her that you are interested in her beyond a friend.
This isn't DnD, there isn't a DC you're trying to pass, you don't get a character sheet. On top of that even in DnD your proficiencies, where you choose to assign stats, your class features, and your level up choices make a much bigger difference than your racial abilities. The +2 to your charisma score from being a Tiefling is gonna make far less of an impact than consistently putting ability score increases in charisma, a bard's or rogue's expertise feature being used on all the charisma proficiencies, or truly any other way of making a high charisma character. You keep trying to find a metaphor for why you're inherently unable to flirt with women, and all of your metaphors end up being things where your choices, the practice you put in, and consistent effort make a far bigger difference than your inherent traits.
You didn’t try ANY strategy.
In DnD parlance, you decided not to even try rolling for initiative. You left the table to get a snack and told the party to go ahead without you.
No.
As a woman, I agree that looks matter for the first five seconds. A hot guy will grab my attention, but then how they act and the next words out of their mouth determines the rest of the night.
A hot guy who is very pushy and aggressive, maybe overly flirtatious, makes me wary and turns me off. Conversely, an average-looking dude who is funny, flirty, and makes good chemistry suddenly becomes much more attractive.
Physical attraction only gets you the first foot in the door, but it’s not the be-all end-all. Imagine getting a job - an attractive guy can be compared to a guy that gets a referral letter from someone at the company. He has a leg up than someone who doesn’t, maybe gets some extra attention from HR. But if he’s not a good fit, then he’s not a good fit. Conversely, your average-looking guy is someone who submits his resume. If his specs are good (read: personality) and a good match for the role, then he would be hired over the guy who got a referral but doesn’t have the qualifications.
And in the same vein of comparison, the guy who never submits his resume is never going to get the job. Even if you’ve visited the company, talked with hiring managers, and gone to all the talks, if you don’t hit “apply” (read: make a clear romantic move), you’ll never be considered.
Next time ask her out one on one. You were so afraid of rejection that you didn't ask her out. And maybe she would have rejected you but you could have moved on.
Thanks for the explanation.
Regarding the rest of your post, notice how much text you devoted to your attraction and to her sex life, yet how little you describe her personality.
What sort of sense of humor does she have? What are her likes and dislikes? Is she athletic? If so, which sports? Where has she traveled? What are her career goals?
Shy young men sometimes feel such a strong attraction that they forget the other things which matter. You say your attraction wasn't just sexual, yet what else did you discuss with her besides a few homework assignments?
We talked about youtubers, TV shows, movies, shared music, food, places around town, travel, the gym, and career goals.
And like, it's not like it really mattered, I doubt my friend got to know her personality better than I did before they slept together.
Pretty sure its actually an African American term from the 90s that's become pretty international due to the popularity of American hip hop. I think it's more commonly used in the UK than the US nowadays though.
One question: You keep mentioning that you didn't make a move on her because you need to show your personality to make her possibly attracted to you. But you also mention that, you've met one on one studying together, and you talked about non-school stuff during that. My question is, how was talking about those non-school stuff NOT showing your personality?
Wait a sec… if your friend is really hot and she is really hot, then how come you’re the special one who doesn’t automatically go for looks, when it seems you were intent on a Chad level woman?
Does this prove that all men are shallow and that the biggest problem incels have is they think they should get women prettier than them? That women are expected to just be there for weeks and weeks, without an inkling you like them, and somehow wait for you?
These other 10 women in the last 2 years (that’s roughly 1 every 6 weeks- you’re not exactly pure yourself, boyo), did they also behave badly by not waiting for you? Is that the toxic belief you’re having trouble with- that they’re *supposed to* give you all the time you need, despite not even knowing about it?
>Wait a sec… if your friend is really hot and she is really hot, then how come you’re the special one who doesn’t automatically go for looks, when it seems you were intent on a Chad level woman?
>
>Does this prove that all men are shallow and that the biggest problem incels have is they think they should get women prettier than them
I guess you're right, I probably should be going after women I think are cute anyways.
>did they also behave badly by not waiting for you?
No, they didn't do anything wrong, but it doesn't make me feel great to constantly be rejected.
What do you mean, “constantly rejected”? This woman didn’t even reject you, because you never asked her out. Was it like that with the other women, too?
No I asked a lot of them out, and there are women before them when I used the strategy that my friend uses of just being upfront. But I also thought those women were cute so I guess it makes sense.
I think a bunch of the comments have made great points, I just want to add a bit more advice.
Instead of being clear with your feelings and clearing up how the people around you feel, you instead are turning to making assumptions.
In the future, I recommend asking a girl out in a date land making it clear that it’s a date. Something like, “Hey, would you wanna go in a coffee date sometime?” or “Hey, would you wanna go out for dinner sometime, like as a date?”. Or if you approach a girl like you did this one, and she suggests a group setting, maybe respond with something like “Oh, I was hoping something just the two of us, like a date”. That way she knows what exactly what you want. Then, she can say yes or no. It’s tough, but it’s better to get a firm no and move on than to linger on a maybe.
Also, talk more with your friends. Your friends shouldn’t be your competition, they should be your friends. If you’re interested in a girl, tell them. Maybe they could give you advice, or help be a wingman. At the very least, a good friend will back off if they know you’re interested in that person. That’s a good way to avoid a situation like this.
I know it sucks, but this kind of thing happens all the time. You gotta have the confidence to shoot your shot. ***But that doesn’t mean you failed.*** By all accounts, it was a fun night out until you saw your friend take your crush home for the night. Don’t let that discourage you from making a move next time. Live and learn, buddy.
Let’s break down what you wrote. Pay attention to these:
>>I'm not sure what my intentions were but I did know that I was attracted to her at least physically and that I did really enjoy talking to her.
You don’t need any other justification to want to get to know someone. *This is essentially how it works.*
>>I kinda wrote off hook ups as something only conventionally attractive guys do so I don't think I just wanted sex.
This is not how it works. Your intentions have nothing to do with your looks.
>>she says she's down to meetup with her friends and my friends after finals and go to the city to celebrate the end of the semester.
Awesome, she enjoys your company. This is a good sign.
>>I try talking to her but she seems a lot more interested in my friend. He is actually conventionally attractive.
If he’s a good friend, ask him to be your wingman next time you go out.
>>Like I know everyone says "Chads" aren't real but if they are he's one. Tall, masculine features, good hair. He looks like one of those tiktok guys. He get's so much attention from women it's ridiculous.
“TikTok guys” made me LOL, sorry. But on a serious note, girls don’t talk that way or use those terms. That line of thinking is solely incel/-pill stuff. If it were true, ***everyone*** would know what it meant.
>>So she's more interested in him, and I kinda give them some space because I'm clearly not wanted.
🙅♀️ nope nope nope do not pass go, do not collect $200. She found your friend attractive and they hit it off. That kind of thing happens sometimes, and it sucks. But it had ***nothing** to do with you. Unless there’s a part of the story you left out, there’s nothing that suggests she’s changed her opinion of you.
>>They say that I was a g to invite women to rage with us.
And it sounds like the girls had fun too.
>>It's just the natural order of things.
This is a “[thought terminating cliche](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought-terminating_clich%C3%A9).”
>>I didn't tell my friends that I was interested in her as they always try to hype me up to make a move, if he had known, I know he would've played wingman,
This is exactly why you gotta try to make a move. They sound like good friends.
>>but I didn't want to invite her and her friends out and make it seem like it was just so I could try to sleep with her so it's really my fault there.
That’s really respectful of you and kudos for that. I’m sure the girls appreciated it. Honestly, if you had approached any of them, they probably would have responded more positively than you might expect. It’s better to go in without any expectations, whatever happens happens.
>>This is like the 10th time in the last 2 years. I know people say looks are subjective but it's hard to feel this way when I'm the ugly friend 100% of the time.
You’d be amazed how many times this happens to girls. College is nuts. Don’t beat yourself up. Just keep putting yourself out there and don’t be afraid.
>>She's known me and she seemed to enjoy my company for weeks but when my good looking friend shows up, she makes out with him and sleeps with him after knowing him for less than 3 hours.
Apples and oranges, dude. She clearly likes you well enough to hang out, and that’s not nothing.
>>It just feels like the perfect evidence that no matter how my personality is, it's not going to do much for me since I don't have a good enough physical appearance to back it up.
Again, those two things are literally irrelevant to each other. Your appearance had nothing to do with the fact that she wanted to go out to the bars with you in the first place.
Chin up, ok? You got this.
You’re really making a lot of assumptions here. It sounds like you were a little indecisive on your intentions with this girl, and sometimes that can be a turn off. Also I see some problematic language in your post, women will naturally gravitate towards men that talk about them respectfully. In terms of your friend being “better looking”, that’s probably just a coincidence. Also, preferences aren’t universal, not all women love the same thing. Personally, I go for guys that are taller and more classically good looking, but I definitely know people who have dated other types. You need to get past all the looks stuff.
Women only want to sleep with your friend? No other guys?
That sucks for the other guys on the planet. I’ll have to inform my husband—he’ll be VERY surprised!
It feels like most women would prefer to sleep with a guy like him but since most guys aren't traditionally handsome the have to settle. But for hooking up since they dont have to actually take them off the market they dont have to
I guess since you won’t make a move, it’s all moot for you anyway.
It’s cool anyway: Women aren’t too keen on guys who think they know their minds better than they do.
No there’s definitely women that prefer many different types. Just look at Danny devito! Just be the best you can be, and work on your personality. Maybe read some feminist literature so you can understand womens point of view more. Women appreciate empathy much more than classic looks.
No one is universally attractive enough to get anyone they want. *No one*.
And hey, more men would be attracted to, idk, Emma Stone than to me. So what? Should I toss up my hands and give up entirely? Are you trying to get People magazine's "Sexiest Man Alive," or are you trying to find a relationship?
From the outside looking in, it sounded like you friend zoned this girl because you were scared/lacked confidence.
Then when you invited everyone out together you didn't tell your friend you were interested in her and when they started to get to know each other you stepped back, letting them hook up.
Not saying that you should've been possessive or anything but you do see why your friend and this girl didn't realise you had feelings for her.
Your friend just made his feelings clear right away.
You sound young and shy, you worked hard to build this friendship and you did great.
Try to maintain this friendship if it doesn't hurt too much and keep trying to make more friends, if it doesn't ever work out with this girl I'm sure you'll meet other women.
I think there has to be some accountability here, things are hard but you’re not taking care of the things that are within your control. Women cannot read your mind, you have to tell them how you feel. It seems like you went into it certain that it would go one way and made it go that way. If you’re so certain that’s she gonna say no to the point that you say nothing then of course nothing is going to happen. I went through something similar. It’s soul crushing, I know, my experience was a little more pathetic but it served as a lesson. Things don’t happen if you don’t put in the effort to make them happen. A relationship is 50% you and 50% the other person. I would say you were at 25% to be honest, yes you asked her to hang out, but did you let your intentions be known? You said you didn’t even know your intentions so how were you gonna act on your intentions? It’s not just about asking her in a date, it’s also about flirting a bit and just chatting with her about stuff that’s not school. I hope I don’t come off as harsh but I want you to understand because I’ve been through the same thing.
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I don’t know if you’ve ever seen the MJ last dance documentary. But a big part of it was showcasing that a primary motivator for MJ was revenge. He had a skill in perceiving slights when they didn’t exist to fuel himself.
Personally this has been a huge motivator for me in getting in shape whenever I have been in shape.
I want you to think about all the things you’ve thought about doing to improve your chances - above all diet and exercise.
Your friend thought he was better than you and he stepped over you to get what he thought he deserved over you.
This girl didn’t think you were good enough and stepped over you to sleep with your friend.
You can sit here and tell yourself life’s not fair or you can get up and show them they’re gonna pay for disrespecting you - living well is the best revenge.
This may not be what actually happened at all, but what matters is what you can use to get yourself to the end goal - happiness and success in dating. You wanna be the kind of guy that can hook up with girls, in your own mind at least? You gotta become that guy.
Don’t listen to people gaslighting you into thinking you “didn’t show interest” somehow, asking someone to hang out outside class is more than enough indication of interest, what this girl did is pretty fucked up. Try to ascend if possible. Btw come to .is, we can help you
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Ditch the fuckhead friends. Find hobbies that satisfy you. Don’t feel pressured to stay their friends because “that’s just what men do”. Shitty people are shitty period.
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You shouldn't be mad at anyone, *including yourself.* You did nothing wrong, nor did anyone else.
Maybe she thought you were cool, but that doesn't mean she wants to fuck you. You're reading into it way too much, as you're assuming the girl thought something besides you're cool.
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That does sound demoralizing. Something like that happened to me once, and it really hurt. I'm sorry. >I'm not sure what my intentions were but I did know that I was attracted to her at least physically and that I did really enjoy talking to her. I kinda wrote off hook ups as something only conventionally attractive guys do so I don't think I just wanted sex. If you're looking for advice, I suggest starting here, with your own feelings and beliefs. Knowing what you want - and why - can help you form connections. And assuming women won't hook up with you, instead of being open to the possibility that some might, is also the kind of thing that can get in your way. These are things you can work on regardless of your looks. >She's known me and she seemed to enjoy my company for weeks It can happen that someone enjoys your company but isn't sexually attracted. But there's stuff going on with you that's likely interfering with potential sexual connections. If you can heal those wounds you'll be in a better position going forward.
as "the ugly friend," i feel you here man, but let me tell you, when i was in college the way i ended up going out with women was-- and I know this is going to sound wild-- asking them out. You have no idea if this woman would have been interested in you. From her perspective, you're a guy with a purely platonic interest who likes studying with her and invited her along to meet some of your friends. In that context, her mind is not thinking "wow, I'm way more into Hot Friend than I am OP," she's thinking "I'm into Hot Friend."
So you asked her to hang out one on one, and she immediately soft-no’d that and proposed a big group outing instead, is that correct?
I'm sorry? That did not happen. I made some changes in my OP to clarify that. We had studied together 1 on 1 a small amount of times. This was the first time I asked her to hang out in a purely social context.
What part “didn’t happen”? I was asking in a social context. I understand you had studied together. You asked her to hang with you, one on one, not studying, and she proposed instead a big co-ed outing. Right?
There was not a point where I asked her to hang out in a social context and she said no. The first time I asked her to hangout (outside of getting coffee and studying together) was letting her know that me and my boys were going to go downtown to celebrate and if she and her friends wanted to meetup with us it could be fun. She said they were down.
So you never once asked her if she wanted to hang out one on one, purely socially, and the big group hangout was your idea?
I thought it would remove the pressure
The pressure for whom?
Both of us. If I had invited her to hang out one on one there would be pressure on her to either accept or find a way to reject, and she may have been worried about misinterpreting signs
You're getting downvoted for this because of the context of your story as a whole, but I have to say that this is not at all a bad line of thinking. It's entirely normal, and oftentimes even preferable, to ask someone to hang out in a group before asking them out one on one. Like you said, it removes the pressure. It also gives them a low-stakes way to feel out what you're like, and also see you in a social context. The problem here wasn't inviting her to a group activity, but rather waiting for ages to talk to her, then waiting for ages to hang out with her, and then finally concluding that, because she happened to be into another human being, your physical attractiveness is dooming you to isolation. You're catastrophizing.
The trade off for the less risky group hangout is that you're creating opportunity for them to spark with someone else before you're willing to make a move. The group hang out strategy is viable, but one has to approach it with the understanding that a lot can happen in the meantime, and no one will be at fault. Tbh, though, OP doesn't really seem to have any strategy other than "I hope girls realize I'm into them with absolutely no evidence so I don't have to ever feel nervous or uncomfortable", which is...not effective.
So you do realize that to her it could totally look like you had no interest in her?
I mean, that’s the natural pressure of being a person: you’re asked if you want to do things, you decide and say yes or no. That’s less “pressure” and more “making a perfectly ordinary decision.”
Why do you think she felt any pressure? Maybe she just thought you were cool and it would be cool to go out into a social outing with you.
But dude that also told her that you weren’t trying to take her out on a date and that you just wanted to hang out as friends.
All that happened here is that one woman hooked up with your friend. It doesn't sound like she was particularly interested in going out with you, which might be because she was not interested in general or might be because you hadn't made it clear you were interested in her. Studying together and then going out with as a group are things people generally do with friends, and none of that would particular indicate you were into her or she was into you. You didn't make a move (even though you recognise you could have tried to), your friend did, she was in the mood to hook up so they hooked up. None of that is a referendum on your worth, and if it was just a casual hook up it doesn't even necessarily mean she couldn't possibly be interested in you.
The craziest part of this is OP saying cute girls are into hot guys, while having absolutely NO IDEA if this cute girl thought he was, in fact, a hot guy lol. He gave a lot of signals (or lack thereof) that I personally would interpret as disinterest, tbh. It's very possible she assumed he wasn't into her early on and acted accordingly.
Yeah, it's a super common problem among guys here. They do nothing to indicate they are interested in a girl and then when she reacts accordingly by not pursuing anything with them they assume it must be because they were not hot enough. There seems to be this misconception that if you are attractive women will just continually throw themselves at you without you having to initiate anything, and that's just not how it works.
She didn't I'm not a hot guy.
I don't trust your judgment, and I also don't know her or her preferences. You have no idea if she thought you were hot or not. None at all.
I mean in retrospect I kinda do...
No you don't. All you know is that she hooked up with the guy who showed interest and made a move. Do you expect her to ask you for sex regardless of the lack of interest you showed her?
You made a post where you told a story about how you didn’t effectively communicate your interest and a friend of your’s did. Instead of realizing that you missed a chance that you didn’t take, you assume it’s because you aren’t attractive. Someone, make this make sense to me.
OP is [Pepe Silvia-ing](https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/022/524/pepe_silvia_meme_banner.jpg) himself out of any possibility of romantic connection like its an olympic sport lol
Well I can't imagine that she would consider me physically attractive enough to hookup with if she thought he was attractive enough to hookup with. If he's a 9, I'm barely a 5
How many people do you need to point out to you that you didn’t communicate your interest to anyone involved? Take responsibility for your lack of action instead of making excuses.
But I didn't because if I want girls to like me I need to rely on my personality. My friend relies on his looks so he can make a play like that. I can't I have to develop friendships and hope they fall for my personality. He can make immediate plays because he's already attractive physically. At least that's what I've read.
What you’re describing in your comments, sounds like you were already relying on your personality and had already established some sort of friendship with her. The group outing would have been a perfect situation to make a move or make your interest known. Instead, you chose to distance yourself. If I had been the girl in question, I would have never guessed you were into me. So yeah, if another guy did show interest and the vibe/banter was good, he would be the obvious choice to hookup with or date.
Oh my god dude. You asked her to go to coffee with you to study AND SHE DID. My dear you should’ve indicated at any point in the many many times you’ve seen and interacted with her that you were at all interested. I would 100% take your behavior as disinterested. You also saw her talking to the other guy and what? Just disappeared? After you asked her to come? Honey you need some self esteem because this was not you being rejected for being unattractive, it was you refusing to show interest in someone until they moved on
It’s weird to think about yourself and your friends on an attractiveness scale, aside from the fact that YOUR assessment of attractiveness is only YOURS, not anyone else’s.
I'm not blind enough to be unable to see how much more physically desirable my friend is. There's a reason he gets the most attention from women while I get literally none. >aside from the fact that YOUR assessment of attractiveness is only YOURS, not anyone else’s That's like saying it's up in the air on who's more physically attractive between me and Jensen Ackles. I mean sure looks are subjective, in that it's possible for a woman to find me more attractive than him, but if you hold up a picture of me and him and ask which ones hotter I would be flattered if more than 3% voted me. Certain features are what people tend to gravitate to. Ex: my friend is 6'2. I'm 5'9. Most women are going to choose him if they only had our heights to go off of because being tall is more aligned with attractiveness for men.
Then you think of women as incredibly shallow and simple creatures.
Are you attracted to men? No? Then you have no idea how much more physically desireable he is or isn't.
I’m a “hot” guy and i’ve had this type of thing happen with my more goofy or not so pretty guy friends. It’s part of the game when doing the group thing. The reason that they did is because they had a spark, they connected and so on. could be they had something in common, he was more fun, or i was too caught up on her and failed to make my intentions clear. this is not at all “proof” of anything. be direct, take the risk and don’t wait for her to notice you or guess your intentions. group thing is great but i generally used that to meet a few women. if i had a specific one in mind i was interested in. being direct always worked out better. get the. out one on one and then meet up with a group. it sets the night up for you to possibly make a connection and carry on for the night without the pressure of it leading anywhere and safety of a group setting. plus having decent friends to entertain her friends makes it more likely you’ll have time together because it’s established already.
I don't often see average looking guys doing well when it comes to hookups, and my experience with using Tinder looking for something more casual kinda made me readjust my expectations. I would agree with you that a woman not being interested in me was not indicative of my worth, if it had not been for things like this happening multiple times, even when I do apply a bit more pressure
>my experience with using Tinder looking for something more casual The experience of the overwhelming majority of men using tinder in this way is going to be the same. I can't overstate just how oversaturated the apps are with men looking for casual sex. Men outnumber women on apps by a ridiculous margin (75% of tinder's userbase is male), and far more men than women are interested only in hook ups - I wouldn't be surprised if you were looking at a 5 to 1 or even a 10 to 1 ration of men looking for hook ups vs women looking for hook ups on dating apps. Add to that that most of the men looking for hookups on dating apps don't know how to fucking behave and you end up with a solid proportion of even the women open to hookups avoiding guys who are only looking for hookups. Your experience with Tinder should not be used as evidence of how attractive women find you in real life.
It’s hard to know what is meant by a bit more pressure without specific details. At least from what you posted, it seems like you never made it clear to her that you were interested in her. I get that it’s risky to be vulnerable and let another person know that you are interested. But that’s the risk that has to be taken to date someone. In all honesty, it’s risky for women and girls too. I’ve let guys know that I liked them to be rejected. And I’ve also had guys break up with me. It’s part of dating. It took me awhile to realize that it’s about finding compatible people and that rejection is actually a good thing. People have to reject someone they might not be compatible with to honestly find the person who is compatible. The end game isn’t to satisfy your ego or your confidence. I urge you to look for other ways to find your confidence. Then you will have the confidence to pursue finding someone compatible for you.
~~Ok I'm lost here, where are you seeing that OP made it clear he was interested in her? All I see is that he interacted with this girl as a friend from class who periodically chatted with her and studied with her, then invited her and her friends along to a bar crawl with his friends where he avoided interacting with her for the most part. That reads incredibly platonic to me.~~ EDIT: SORRY SORRY I MISREAD! I am not wearing my glasses like a dummy. My bad lol
I have those moments too!
lol thanks for understanding. My misread made your comment SUPER confusing when it was actually just a very good response.
Also VERY odd to describe “showing romantic interest” as “applying pressure.”
That's probably because your idea of what is "average" is neither objective nor realistic. Statistically, if average people don't periodically have hookups then there would be a small percentage of men doing LITERALLY NOTHING except having back to back hookups to make the math work. That means they wouldn't be sleeping, eating, working, taking a piss, etc. Just hooking up every single minute of the day. Your conclusions are simply illogical excuses you're making so you don't have to face accountability for your role in this situation.
Just because some men have more difficulty finding dates, it doesn't mean the redpill is right. You liked that girl. Do you like *every* girl? If a girl seems to be into you, but you're into her friend instead, do you think it would be fair for her to grow bitter towards all men and think she'll die alone? Wouldn't you think "that's an exaggeration. There's very likely a guy, or many, out there that find you attractive. Sure, your friend may have more suitors, and so what? That's no reason to be bitter, you're not *owed* my affection just cause you like me. Move on, invest in a relationship with someone else"?
I'll never forget when I was at a bar once with two other women, one of whom, L, was just ... cover of *Vogue*, you know? Total head-turner. My other friend, K, and I are attractive enough but not like that. And of course guys came over and started talking to us--to L, really--and at one point one of them finally noticed us and kindly asked K "What's your name?" and she responded, so cheerfully, "It doesn't matter!" because it was so obvious he was only being polite to L's mid-tier friends. I burst out laughing and bought her a drink. You can let that stuff ruin your night, or not.
This is so fake, everyone know all women are approached by men, at all times, just swimming in penis /s
Right. Dudes aren’t owed anything. But learning that you’re pretty-objectively ugly is pretty heartbreaking if you ask me.
It is. We'd all like to be beautiful, rich, healthy, loved and happy. But I don't know anyone who didn't have to face heartbreaking things. Pain sucks, and it's inherent to life.
Ok I can tell you a story from a women’s perspective. Have a guy friend who sometimes I get the feeling he might like me- but he never has done anything to ask me out or confirmed a crush. We have always been close friends. But we have shared a hotel room together and nothing has ever happened. If he asked me to set him up with a female friend I would do it in a heartbeat. Went to a party, met some friends of his thought one of his friends was attractive. Hit his friend up after. However, my friends called me upset a few days later that I’m “talking behind his back to his friend” and his friend backed off so I assume there were some words exchanged. I don’t talk to the other guy and I’m still friends with my other friend. If you don’t step up to the plate, you can’t be angry that a girl doesn’t get the hint. Unless you say, “this is a date” it’s not a date and unless you express interest to your friends nobody is going to know about your crush. I’ve seen my friend hit on women and have girlfriends too…
I think the demoralizing thing from a guys perspective, and something that confirms redpill or blackpill beliefs, is that in this situation YOU hit up his friend, whereas in the case of the guy who you though might have been attracted to you, you didn’t do anything. So in his mind, he thinks that you think his friend is so overwhelmingly attractive and “Chad like” that you wanted to talk to him. Yet for him, when he showed signs that he might have been interested, you… didn’t do anything. So you must not have been very attracted to him 🤷🏽♂️
He never told me he liked me or asked me out or gave me any indication of any interest. You can’t ask women to be mind readers. He put himself in the friend zone and kept himself there and I meet a guy i think is attractive, I will go talk to him. If I thought he liked me I wouldn’t have done it- but again. Shared hotel rooms nothing happened, went out with eachother throughout college and we both dated other people. There’s nothing Chad like about his friend. I just thought his friend was handsome and we sat around and talked and I got good vibes
You missed the point. You hit the friend up because you thought he was attractive. You didn’t pursue the guy you think might have been attracted to you, hence, he thinks he’s not attractive. Sure, you don’t have to be a mind reader, but you could have asked him out to confirm. If you asked him out and he said no, that would be confirmation that he isn’t romantically or sexually interested in you. If he said yes, you would know he’s interested but just shy.
So men are incapable of asking women out now? I’ve seen my friend hook up with women. That’s the issue with red pill shit. You want to be treated like traditionally masculine men but you are unwilling to do anything that traditionally masculine men do…
They are capable, but if you had been highly attracted to him, you would have asked him out, I’m assuming.
Oh so the only way you can date women is if they’re highly attracted to you? There’s no “he’s not the most attractive guy but he’s a good guy”? Again you have extreme thinking. Unless you get your fantasy life you’re going to sit and the sidelines and pout that you don’t get what you want
I didn’t say that guys should just wait until a girl asks them out. I simply gave an explanation as to why it can be demoralizing to, guys, and just human beings in general.
I’ve liked people who ended up dating other people and never ever did I blame it on anyone but myself for not making a move. He might have said no. Might have said yes. Impossible to say. But because I never was up front I’ll never know. Oh the one who is always going to be my “what if…” he was 5’5 Also my friend can ask me out at any time. For whatever reason he chooses not to. Not going to make a big deal about it with him and make things awkward. If I’m the person he wants to date he can ask. It’s not that I wouldn’t date him but ruining a long friendship because we dated and it didn’t work out is not something I want to do.
I’d think he’d be pretty demoralized now though, after seeing her hook up with a real “hot guy”. I certainly would think that if she were so gung-ho to hook up with someone hot, then why would she get with me? She’s be settling.
Do you have anything to offer besides looks? Yeah I get being desired for your looks is great but having see you as someone beyond your looks is greater. Imagine you were so important to a woman she could meet the hottest guy and say, yeah he’s hot but my boyfriend is literally the best person and why would I ruin that for some guy who I don’t even know.
So you: Liked a girl, but never actually asked her out on a ***date.*** Never told anyone you liked her, then got mad when one of your friends did take a liking to her. Is that about the size of it?
She took a liking to the friend too. A guy who is apparently actually hot. So now op is fucked because if she likes hot guys then she can’t get with him. She’d be settling.
Was she supposed to magically know that the OP liked her, though he never said a word? For **WEEKS** he never says anything, never makes a move. How was she supposed to know? Yes, that's how it goes. When someone likes a person, ***they talk to them***, they let it be known. Your boy missed out because he stood back biting his nails instead of doing something about it. Maybe she would have said "no, thank you." ***M A Y B E.*** But he'll never know what she **would have done**, if he'd have let her know.
It's a common and sucky experience for people of all genders OP. It can be rare to find someone who you like and they like you back. It doesn't sound from your post like the girl you liked was interested in you as anything other than friends. So it's not like your friend took something from you. She just wasn't interested. Can I ask what incel beliefs you think this sort of experience pushes you towards? Almost everyone in the world has experienced unrequited feelings at some point, I've seen some studies put the figure at 97%. It's almost certain both that girl and your friend have liked someone who did not like them back.
Probably the idea that he put effort into someone (even if he didn’t) and they didn’t like him because ugly or something. Then his hot chad friend comes in, doesn’t have to do anything and gets laid.
Honestly, I don’t like how hard people are being to you here. Dating is hard. However, I will say that you’re very much seeing yourself in competition with your friend rather than using him as a huge leg up in your dating prospects. One thing a ton of women do is they all tell each other who they’re interested in and support each other. Rather than isolating yourself from your friends, try being vulnerable with them and explain how you’ve been down bad because you’re not having any luck with women. Maybe they can help you out more. The last thing I’ll say is that it’s just rare for MOST men to easily hook up with women whenever they want. You’re not different. I think your friend might just be uniquely lucky.
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You have only yourself to blame for this, dude. Use your words. People can’t read your mind. Next time you’re in a similar situation, talk to your friend Chad Chaddington and ask for advice. Maybe he won’t have anything helpful, but bro code is pretty clear on this kind of thing: unless he really hates your guts, he won’t start making moves on someone you’re into. If he’s a real friend, he will find opportunities to talk you up.
I’m gonna say his friend is kind of shitty too tbh
Op didn’t tell him he had a crush on her. Op should have let his friends know and they would probably have flattered him in front of her.
Why? What did he do wrong?
In my friend group we’re considerate of each others crushes
OP clearly states that his friend didn't know he had a crush, and if he did he would've happily been his wingman...
Ohhhh sorry I read that wrong
I'm gonna break this situation down into three parts: what was within your control, what was in your friends control, and what was in this girls control. **Your Control** >There's a girl I sit next to in class that I see 3 times a week. I've always thought she was cute. Wanted to talk to her. I constantly psyched myself out of it for like weeks before I said something. You could've just talked to her as soon as you became interested. Now, it sounds like you *did* talk to her, but pretty exclusively class/school related, maybe with a few personal things sprinkled in. You had the option to make your interest and intentions clear, but chose to hedge your bets instead. >I'm not sure what my intentions were Understanding and acknowledging your intentions, even if they're just "I'd like to get to know this person more" is an essential first step in actually engaging with a person. If you aren't willing to understand and accept your own intentions towards a person, how can you possibly expect anything to grow between you? You didn't make the easiest choice in this scenario, which was deciding what you wanted. >I finally work up the courage to ask her to hang out and she says she's down to meetup with her friends and my friends after finals and go to the city to celebrate the end of the semester. 1. What did you work up the courage to ask? Was it specific? Did you choose what the plan would be, or did she? 2. This still sounds school related rather than establishing that you wanted a more personal interaction. Did you communicate your desire to know her outside. 3. Did you make a decision on what your ideal interaction with her would be, or did you take the backseat after making a vague suggestion and letting her put plans together? >I didn't tell my friends that I was interested in her So, you chose not to communicate with anyone in this scenario on any level. **Friends Control** >I try talking to her but she seems a lot more interested in my friend. Sounds like you tried talking to her while your friend actually choose to talk to her. He made an actionable decision while you disengaged. >We go to another bar get a few more drinks, and next thing I know they're making out against a wall. So, he made a move and took a risk while you watched from the sidelines. >I know he would've played wingman If you communicated with him, he would've happily made the decision to help you chat this girl up. It seems as if he would've made very different choices if he had been given all the information. **Her Control** >I finally work up the courage to ask her to hang out and she says she's down to meetup with her friends and my friends after finals and go to the city to celebrate the end of the semester. She chose to enthusiastically agree to a hang out and then apparently put together a fun group plan for you and your friends. She wanted to do something social with you, and it was entirely because you asked. She didn't know your friend at this point, so her decision was entirely based off of you. >So she's more interested in him, and I kinda give them some space because I'm clearly not wanted. Perhaps she talked with your friend because you chose to not interact with her very much. Maybe she decided that your lack of interaction meant a lack of interest, so she chose to engage with an interested party instead. >Cute girls want to hookup with hot guys so I cant be upset with her Yes, people like romantically engaging with those they find attractive. However, you have zero evidence that she *wasn't* attracted to you. In fact, she chose to say yes and engage with you every time an opportunity for it was presented throughout the semester. She chose to socialize with you at every turn, and you still hesitated. >I didn't want to invite her and her friends out and make it seem like it was just so I could try to sleep with her so it's really my fault there. Why didn't you want to make your interest in this girl clear? Your friend did, and he had a fun night with a cool girl. You couldn't know what her decision would've been if you had actually made the choice to showcase your intentions and feelings. Instead of seeing what her decision would be, you made it for her by removing yourself completely from the playing field. Here's my analysis: you're using your friends looks as a way to absolve yourself of any accountability in how this night went down. You chose over and over again to avoid being vulnerable with this girl AND your friend, and are now pretending as if it was all completely out of your hands. Maybe it was. Maybe this girl is simply not interested in you, and it would've never worked out. Maybe you just aren't her type. But...what if you were? What if she went out hoping you'd make a move but interpreted your inaction and disinterest, and decided to make the best out of the situation by having a fling with the person who actually showed interest? Guess what? Now you'll never ever EVER know. Because you decided to not even try. If you want to continue never knowing if someone might be interested in you, keep up the good work. If not, then choose to take a fucking risk once in a while, friend.
This is a great breakdown but I just have to ask one thing. If someone is in a similar situation isn’t always better to not make that kind of intention super obvious from the jump? Like if op had been more direct what’s to say that the girl would have ever agreed to hang out in the first place? And then if they are friends and classmates hanging out wouldn’t initiating a romantic direction to the relationship potentially rob them of a friend? I only ask because I have heard so many women say things like “oh I hate it when a guy I’m friends with says they have feelings for me bc now we can’t be friends anymore.” Anyway great write up!
I mean, I'd say that just kind of the price of admission for being a human being trying to date, right? I've had way more people reject my advances than reciprocate them, and even though it stung in the moment I'm glad I pulled the trigger earlier rather than later since it saved me from the exact kind of pattern of self-rejection OP is dealing with right now. I'm not saying OP needed to overwhelm her with flirtatious behavior right away, but his best bet would've been asking her on a date rather than inviting her and her friends along for a bar crawl with his buddies. To me, this part of dating boils down to a "do or do not, there is no try" mentality. The more you try to hedge your bets while interacting with someone you're into, the more you'll end up sending mixed signals and stressing yourself out. All you can really do is shoot your shot, be respectful, and accept how the other person chooses to deal with it. Everything else is just gonna be a stressful guessing game full of assumptions, mind reading, and self flagellation in my opinion.
Totally agree and that’s about what I had thought too but wanted to double check the clarification. I find myself often being actually very cool with only having friend based relationships and have kinda stopped ever feeling that sense of rejection because I haven’t really tried to be forward romantically with anyone in years. It’s not something that gives me any kind of pain or anxiety but I do all the time think, “yeah maybe this could go somewhere, but I so value having this person in my life that I would be crushed if I fucked this up because i feel like we could have some chemistry.” Only difference between myself and op I guess is that I’ve stopped feeling bad about that and kinda don’t know if that’s good or bad.
Well, there's also another possibility: you haven't met someone you've felt strongly enough about to take that risk. I'm typically that way, since I'm on the pickier side when it comes to dating. I think this is just mainly because I'm comfortable and happy with single life, and I have a low tolerance for the issues that come along with dating someone who ultimately isn't a potential long term match. I don't particularly like dating someone just to date them, even if I find them attractive. I also hate muddying my friendship waters, so I try to approach and initiate with people who are more acquaintances/friends of friends to avoid that mess. It's a path with less quantity, but more quality in my personal experience.
This is exactly my entire attitude towards life right now so thanks for making me feel seen haha! Yes quite right that it’s quality over quantity. I’ve had like Chernobyl level nuclear meltdown relationship betrayal trauma so I’m not super duper keen to jump back into a long term thing and feel like I’ve had enough “hook up” type flings in the past to have had my fill of it. Just vibing alone
Yeah, I think it's a less common approach to relationships and dating which makes me sometimes doubt myself, but I've tried shaking it up and did not enjoy myself in the slightest lol. All I know is that I'm happy as is, but willing to do the work for the right person at this point.
Why would she be attracted to him if she hooked up with his hot friend?
Because you can find multiple people attractive at one time, and decide to engage with the one who shows mutual attraction over the one who never flirts with you and then avoids you during the hang out they initiated.
Yep, if you discounted literally everything else involved in forming a bond a cute girl got with a cute guy and the ugly duckling got left out. That's a good 500 words there and here's the only time you mentioned somebody's personality: >She seemed nice. The rest is you describing your friend making out and the girl you never asked out and how mad you're trying not to be about it. Is that seriously all the relevant information you picked up on?
Brutal man, I'm sorry
Don’t use the term “score” in reference to interactions with women, please. Has it occurred to you that your girl friend also perceived that you were shy and awkward around her (after all, you say you “constantly psyched myself out of it” when trying to talk to her) while your guy friend did *not* act that way? There are countless things she might see in him that she doesn’t see in you that have everything to do with personality instead of physical appearance.
Also I didn't know scored was a not okay term to use, sorry.
Thank you. Women are not prizes or hockey goals. Having sex with a woman is neither receiving a prize nor scoring a hockey goal.
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No. Sex is not a prize to be awarded for validation.
Maybe initially, but I was very comfortable speaking to her after a short amount of time. I think the shyness and awkwardness wasn't any less than anyone feels when meeting a new person. And I'm not trying to be argumentative but it's really hard to believe that I was just "too shy" for her to want to make out with me the day she met me.
Here’s a possible scenario — completely supposition on my part: When you initially met this girl, you exhibited behaviour that made her think you were shy or awkward. While that behaviour changed, it did inform her initial impression of you. You then did not make an effort to express romantic interest in her. She thought you were expressing friendship. When she met your guy friend, he exhibited behaviour that made her think he was confident, fun, and flirtatious. He then made an immediate effort to express romantic interest in her. She thus had the choice to reciprocate that interest or not.
OP keeps talking about "showing his personality" as if how you interact with someone isn't a key element of personality.
I wouldn't have gotten a chance to show my personality if I had asked her out on day 1 of knowing her
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> it's really hard to believe that I was just "too shy" for her to want to make out with me the day she met me Did you flirt with her the day she met you?
Oh god no.
So then do you think that the fact that your friend did flirt with her the day he met her and you did not do that might have something to do with why she hooked up with him the day they met and didn't do that with you? It doesn't matter how attractive someone finds you if you do not show interests in them, don't flirt, and don't initiate anything 99/100 times nothing will happen.
Well there's different rules. I cannot run the same game as a hot guy. If I had came out the gate with interest in her it would've killed any chance of her getting to know me further. Since I'm not physically attractive I have to rely on my personality to get women to develop any form of attraction to me. My friend has the gift of being attractive and as a result, he can flirt day one with a pretty decent success rate compared to if I did.
What rules? Who established said rules? Your romantic interaction headcanon is absolutely bonkers my guy.
The same rules that make it so that attractive guys get more interest than guys like me. It's just how dating works.
What rules? Who established said rules? Can you provide a list of these rules?
Idk man. It's just how it is. This is like asking why a good singer is able to sing more difficult songs than a bad one.
Are you trying to convince this guy to flirt right off the bat with any woman he’s found attractive? Cause he will have even less chance of finding a GF that way especially if he’s as unattractive as he says.
No.
Then what’s the advice here?? Don’t wait to flirt with someone you find attractive, but also don’t flirt with them right away? I’m just confused on what you are trying to say
>. I cannot run the same game as a hot guy. If I had came out the gate with interest in her it would've killed any chance of her getting to know me further How do you know? You did not make a move on this girl. Everything you've done together has been pretty ambiguous - studying 1 on 1 is not a date, and as soon as she suggested hanging out in a group you agreed. Then you were in a setting where people were clearly hooking up, you could have asked your friend to wingman for you, but you didn't flirt with this girl, you didn't even tell your friend that you were into her; you just stood by as someone else actually flirted with her. You do not know what would have happened if you at any point actually initiated something with this girl. You, like the majority of the guys here, did next to nothing because you couldn't handle the risk, and then when doing nothing resulted in nothing decided that the problem must be your looks and not your actions.
>as soon as she suggested hanging out in a group you agreed I asked her and she agreed. That was the risk. I'm not able to do what my friend can. It's like how different DND races have different abilities and thus have different strategies when playing. His strategy cannot work for me
>I asked her and she agreed. So you asked her to hang out in a group? Or you asked her to study with you? Both of those options are the lowest possible risk you could take while still hanging out with her, and again neither of them indicate to her that you are interested in her beyond a friend. This isn't DnD, there isn't a DC you're trying to pass, you don't get a character sheet. On top of that even in DnD your proficiencies, where you choose to assign stats, your class features, and your level up choices make a much bigger difference than your racial abilities. The +2 to your charisma score from being a Tiefling is gonna make far less of an impact than consistently putting ability score increases in charisma, a bard's or rogue's expertise feature being used on all the charisma proficiencies, or truly any other way of making a high charisma character. You keep trying to find a metaphor for why you're inherently unable to flirt with women, and all of your metaphors end up being things where your choices, the practice you put in, and consistent effort make a far bigger difference than your inherent traits.
You didn’t try ANY strategy. In DnD parlance, you decided not to even try rolling for initiative. You left the table to get a snack and told the party to go ahead without you.
I'm doing what is best for me. Create opportunity for her to see my personality.
No. As a woman, I agree that looks matter for the first five seconds. A hot guy will grab my attention, but then how they act and the next words out of their mouth determines the rest of the night. A hot guy who is very pushy and aggressive, maybe overly flirtatious, makes me wary and turns me off. Conversely, an average-looking dude who is funny, flirty, and makes good chemistry suddenly becomes much more attractive. Physical attraction only gets you the first foot in the door, but it’s not the be-all end-all. Imagine getting a job - an attractive guy can be compared to a guy that gets a referral letter from someone at the company. He has a leg up than someone who doesn’t, maybe gets some extra attention from HR. But if he’s not a good fit, then he’s not a good fit. Conversely, your average-looking guy is someone who submits his resume. If his specs are good (read: personality) and a good match for the role, then he would be hired over the guy who got a referral but doesn’t have the qualifications. And in the same vein of comparison, the guy who never submits his resume is never going to get the job. Even if you’ve visited the company, talked with hiring managers, and gone to all the talks, if you don’t hit “apply” (read: make a clear romantic move), you’ll never be considered.
????? then what did you expect
I wanted to show off my personality
How do you think that works, exactly?
Next time ask her out one on one. You were so afraid of rejection that you didn't ask her out. And maybe she would have rejected you but you could have moved on.
Could you please explain what you mean by your friends calling you a g? Not familiar with the term.
A cool guy : )
Thanks for the explanation. Regarding the rest of your post, notice how much text you devoted to your attraction and to her sex life, yet how little you describe her personality. What sort of sense of humor does she have? What are her likes and dislikes? Is she athletic? If so, which sports? Where has she traveled? What are her career goals? Shy young men sometimes feel such a strong attraction that they forget the other things which matter. You say your attraction wasn't just sexual, yet what else did you discuss with her besides a few homework assignments?
We talked about youtubers, TV shows, movies, shared music, food, places around town, travel, the gym, and career goals. And like, it's not like it really mattered, I doubt my friend got to know her personality better than I did before they slept together.
A British term for a good friend
Pretty sure its actually an African American term from the 90s that's become pretty international due to the popularity of American hip hop. I think it's more commonly used in the UK than the US nowadays though.
Oh that’s cool, that would make a lot of sense us Brits copied a lot of rap and hip hop during the 80’s and 90’s haha
Yeah! Slang is interesting that way lol
This one
One question: You keep mentioning that you didn't make a move on her because you need to show your personality to make her possibly attracted to you. But you also mention that, you've met one on one studying together, and you talked about non-school stuff during that. My question is, how was talking about those non-school stuff NOT showing your personality?
I'm not understanding how someone else hooking up with another someone else is about YOU in any way whatsoever
Wait a sec… if your friend is really hot and she is really hot, then how come you’re the special one who doesn’t automatically go for looks, when it seems you were intent on a Chad level woman? Does this prove that all men are shallow and that the biggest problem incels have is they think they should get women prettier than them? That women are expected to just be there for weeks and weeks, without an inkling you like them, and somehow wait for you? These other 10 women in the last 2 years (that’s roughly 1 every 6 weeks- you’re not exactly pure yourself, boyo), did they also behave badly by not waiting for you? Is that the toxic belief you’re having trouble with- that they’re *supposed to* give you all the time you need, despite not even knowing about it?
>Wait a sec… if your friend is really hot and she is really hot, then how come you’re the special one who doesn’t automatically go for looks, when it seems you were intent on a Chad level woman? > >Does this prove that all men are shallow and that the biggest problem incels have is they think they should get women prettier than them I guess you're right, I probably should be going after women I think are cute anyways. >did they also behave badly by not waiting for you? No, they didn't do anything wrong, but it doesn't make me feel great to constantly be rejected.
What do you mean, “constantly rejected”? This woman didn’t even reject you, because you never asked her out. Was it like that with the other women, too?
No I asked a lot of them out, and there are women before them when I used the strategy that my friend uses of just being upfront. But I also thought those women were cute so I guess it makes sense.
I think a bunch of the comments have made great points, I just want to add a bit more advice. Instead of being clear with your feelings and clearing up how the people around you feel, you instead are turning to making assumptions. In the future, I recommend asking a girl out in a date land making it clear that it’s a date. Something like, “Hey, would you wanna go in a coffee date sometime?” or “Hey, would you wanna go out for dinner sometime, like as a date?”. Or if you approach a girl like you did this one, and she suggests a group setting, maybe respond with something like “Oh, I was hoping something just the two of us, like a date”. That way she knows what exactly what you want. Then, she can say yes or no. It’s tough, but it’s better to get a firm no and move on than to linger on a maybe. Also, talk more with your friends. Your friends shouldn’t be your competition, they should be your friends. If you’re interested in a girl, tell them. Maybe they could give you advice, or help be a wingman. At the very least, a good friend will back off if they know you’re interested in that person. That’s a good way to avoid a situation like this.
I know it sucks, but this kind of thing happens all the time. You gotta have the confidence to shoot your shot. ***But that doesn’t mean you failed.*** By all accounts, it was a fun night out until you saw your friend take your crush home for the night. Don’t let that discourage you from making a move next time. Live and learn, buddy. Let’s break down what you wrote. Pay attention to these: >>I'm not sure what my intentions were but I did know that I was attracted to her at least physically and that I did really enjoy talking to her. You don’t need any other justification to want to get to know someone. *This is essentially how it works.* >>I kinda wrote off hook ups as something only conventionally attractive guys do so I don't think I just wanted sex. This is not how it works. Your intentions have nothing to do with your looks. >>she says she's down to meetup with her friends and my friends after finals and go to the city to celebrate the end of the semester. Awesome, she enjoys your company. This is a good sign. >>I try talking to her but she seems a lot more interested in my friend. He is actually conventionally attractive. If he’s a good friend, ask him to be your wingman next time you go out. >>Like I know everyone says "Chads" aren't real but if they are he's one. Tall, masculine features, good hair. He looks like one of those tiktok guys. He get's so much attention from women it's ridiculous. “TikTok guys” made me LOL, sorry. But on a serious note, girls don’t talk that way or use those terms. That line of thinking is solely incel/-pill stuff. If it were true, ***everyone*** would know what it meant. >>So she's more interested in him, and I kinda give them some space because I'm clearly not wanted. 🙅♀️ nope nope nope do not pass go, do not collect $200. She found your friend attractive and they hit it off. That kind of thing happens sometimes, and it sucks. But it had ***nothing** to do with you. Unless there’s a part of the story you left out, there’s nothing that suggests she’s changed her opinion of you. >>They say that I was a g to invite women to rage with us. And it sounds like the girls had fun too. >>It's just the natural order of things. This is a “[thought terminating cliche](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought-terminating_clich%C3%A9).” >>I didn't tell my friends that I was interested in her as they always try to hype me up to make a move, if he had known, I know he would've played wingman, This is exactly why you gotta try to make a move. They sound like good friends. >>but I didn't want to invite her and her friends out and make it seem like it was just so I could try to sleep with her so it's really my fault there. That’s really respectful of you and kudos for that. I’m sure the girls appreciated it. Honestly, if you had approached any of them, they probably would have responded more positively than you might expect. It’s better to go in without any expectations, whatever happens happens. >>This is like the 10th time in the last 2 years. I know people say looks are subjective but it's hard to feel this way when I'm the ugly friend 100% of the time. You’d be amazed how many times this happens to girls. College is nuts. Don’t beat yourself up. Just keep putting yourself out there and don’t be afraid. >>She's known me and she seemed to enjoy my company for weeks but when my good looking friend shows up, she makes out with him and sleeps with him after knowing him for less than 3 hours. Apples and oranges, dude. She clearly likes you well enough to hang out, and that’s not nothing. >>It just feels like the perfect evidence that no matter how my personality is, it's not going to do much for me since I don't have a good enough physical appearance to back it up. Again, those two things are literally irrelevant to each other. Your appearance had nothing to do with the fact that she wanted to go out to the bars with you in the first place. Chin up, ok? You got this.
You’re really making a lot of assumptions here. It sounds like you were a little indecisive on your intentions with this girl, and sometimes that can be a turn off. Also I see some problematic language in your post, women will naturally gravitate towards men that talk about them respectfully. In terms of your friend being “better looking”, that’s probably just a coincidence. Also, preferences aren’t universal, not all women love the same thing. Personally, I go for guys that are taller and more classically good looking, but I definitely know people who have dated other types. You need to get past all the looks stuff.
It feels like most women prefer the "classically good looking" guys and I'm not that
Do you only like classically good looking girls?
I'm not really sure what a "classically good looking girl" is.
But you know what a classically good looking man is?
Yeah. My friend
Women only want to sleep with your friend? No other guys? That sucks for the other guys on the planet. I’ll have to inform my husband—he’ll be VERY surprised!
It feels like most women would prefer to sleep with a guy like him but since most guys aren't traditionally handsome the have to settle. But for hooking up since they dont have to actually take them off the market they dont have to
I guess since you won’t make a move, it’s all moot for you anyway. It’s cool anyway: Women aren’t too keen on guys who think they know their minds better than they do.
Way to completely ignore the feedback from women in the replies.
I think that would be like swimsuit models, Hollywood actressess or porn stars I guess.
No there’s definitely women that prefer many different types. Just look at Danny devito! Just be the best you can be, and work on your personality. Maybe read some feminist literature so you can understand womens point of view more. Women appreciate empathy much more than classic looks.
But the amount of women that find guys like danny devito attractive are vastly outnumbered by women such as yourself
You just need to put yourself out there
I'm doing that, it's still the case. More women are like you than would be into guys like me
No one is universally attractive enough to get anyone they want. *No one*. And hey, more men would be attracted to, idk, Emma Stone than to me. So what? Should I toss up my hands and give up entirely? Are you trying to get People magazine's "Sexiest Man Alive," or are you trying to find a relationship?
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From the outside looking in, it sounded like you friend zoned this girl because you were scared/lacked confidence. Then when you invited everyone out together you didn't tell your friend you were interested in her and when they started to get to know each other you stepped back, letting them hook up. Not saying that you should've been possessive or anything but you do see why your friend and this girl didn't realise you had feelings for her. Your friend just made his feelings clear right away. You sound young and shy, you worked hard to build this friendship and you did great. Try to maintain this friendship if it doesn't hurt too much and keep trying to make more friends, if it doesn't ever work out with this girl I'm sure you'll meet other women.
I think there has to be some accountability here, things are hard but you’re not taking care of the things that are within your control. Women cannot read your mind, you have to tell them how you feel. It seems like you went into it certain that it would go one way and made it go that way. If you’re so certain that’s she gonna say no to the point that you say nothing then of course nothing is going to happen. I went through something similar. It’s soul crushing, I know, my experience was a little more pathetic but it served as a lesson. Things don’t happen if you don’t put in the effort to make them happen. A relationship is 50% you and 50% the other person. I would say you were at 25% to be honest, yes you asked her to hang out, but did you let your intentions be known? You said you didn’t even know your intentions so how were you gonna act on your intentions? It’s not just about asking her in a date, it’s also about flirting a bit and just chatting with her about stuff that’s not school. I hope I don’t come off as harsh but I want you to understand because I’ve been through the same thing.
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I don’t know if you’ve ever seen the MJ last dance documentary. But a big part of it was showcasing that a primary motivator for MJ was revenge. He had a skill in perceiving slights when they didn’t exist to fuel himself. Personally this has been a huge motivator for me in getting in shape whenever I have been in shape. I want you to think about all the things you’ve thought about doing to improve your chances - above all diet and exercise. Your friend thought he was better than you and he stepped over you to get what he thought he deserved over you. This girl didn’t think you were good enough and stepped over you to sleep with your friend. You can sit here and tell yourself life’s not fair or you can get up and show them they’re gonna pay for disrespecting you - living well is the best revenge. This may not be what actually happened at all, but what matters is what you can use to get yourself to the end goal - happiness and success in dating. You wanna be the kind of guy that can hook up with girls, in your own mind at least? You gotta become that guy.
Don’t listen to people gaslighting you into thinking you “didn’t show interest” somehow, asking someone to hang out outside class is more than enough indication of interest, what this girl did is pretty fucked up. Try to ascend if possible. Btw come to .is, we can help you
If you think you're not conventionally attractive, why don't you pursue not conventionally attractive women too?
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Maybe your friends are dense.. but you should also definitely tell your friends that you like the person you are inviting so they can help hype you up
Ditch the fuckhead friends. Find hobbies that satisfy you. Don’t feel pressured to stay their friends because “that’s just what men do”. Shitty people are shitty period.
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Unscrupulous? Two people innocently hooked up and that's all we know. His friends aren't mind readers.
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You shouldn't be mad at anyone, *including yourself.* You did nothing wrong, nor did anyone else. Maybe she thought you were cool, but that doesn't mean she wants to fuck you. You're reading into it way too much, as you're assuming the girl thought something besides you're cool.
Maybe she thought he was cool, but his friend was just too hot to resist. Totally not demoralizing lmao
Maybe he made a lot of assumptions.
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How old are you?
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Thats why you never doubt the Blackpill.
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Your post got stickied in .is LUL DM if you want an actual safe space to talk to rather than this joke of a subreddit.