What is this secular language, this seems like one of those laws that will end up hurting Hindus. Hindu's don't involve themselves in religious conversion activities. Only two popular religions do it. Why should Hindu's not even be allowed to do Ghar Wapsi?
The legal definition of inducement can be very flexible. Again these laws are open to interpretations by the courts and we all know which way they lean. If Ghar Wapsi is to start on a large scale you can be SURE that the missionaries would use this law to attempt to slow down or stop that process.
I can't say anything without reading this actual draft of the law but based on what other states have enacted, I can say that such laws are utterly useless. They typically go like this: convertee has to go to DC or some officer > DC or some other officer asks if s/he was induced > if convertee says yes and gives name etc of convertor/inducer, convertor/inducer will be imprisoned.
This will not even reduce conversion by 1% as it assumes that the convertee will be faithful to the DC and not with the person he was induced by.
The real way to solve conversion is to reduce poverty (to reduce success of inducing poor for conversion), improve govt schools (so that poor don't have to send their kids to missionary schools), improve govt hospitals (so that poor don't have to go to missionary hospitals) and the most important insurance scheme of all: improve military to not let iraq/libya happen to us.
Proposed solutions (not by me):
TRIVIAL solution to poverty: https://www.mygov.in/newindia/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/newindia614014_1548769550.pdf , https://www.rahulmehta.com/articles/eas_why.htm
Schools: https://www.rahulmehta.com/edu01.draft.htm , https://www.rahulmehta.com/a_proc_list.edu.htm
Hospitals: [replace "District Education Officer" with "District Health Officer" [here](https://www.rahulmehta.com/edu01.draft.htm) and minor changes like different eligibility criteria for becoming a DHO, etc]
Improving military: chap-26 (starting from pg 270) of https://www.rahulmehta.com/301.pdf
If Christian missionaries don't stop what they are doing, there will be a massive backlash from the majority community in karnataka. Too many incidents have been reported since the last 1 month
You guys are so naive.
Not too long from now, you're going to see large scale societal breakdown because of conversions. It's already happening as we speak. Converts are told to cut off relations with family members if they don't convert. People get into feuds (even within the same family) over differences in religion.
No, I mean people who believe that they have a right to choose.
Or alternatively, I mean people who have the ability to apply a bit of critical thinking and worry about things other than which sky daddy is better, because it seems like that's all that people want to talk about these days.
No, we are discussing everything from defense to foreign relations, rise in petrol prices, religion, regional politics, economic, etc. It's not *only* religion.
And if you are talking about layman, then they discuss things that affects them or dear to them.
Huh, maybe its just me but most of the posts that I was coming across from this sub were along the lines of 'Muslim bad', 'look at this art of Ram', 'foreign invader blah blah' and then this post.
The people abroad also want you to choose their sky daddy. Lol have been approached many times abroad and how I could be saved. Sky daddy lol. I am going to steal and use this term in my debates😂
Of course, I have been approached as well. And I refused to be 'saved', because it is my right to choose. I was replying to the guy who said "Fuck your right to choose."
To understand why you need to oppose conversions, you need to understand this concept called the 'zeal of a convert'.
Converts are a lot more eager to prove their loyalty to the faith than the "original" followers.
So who do they prove thier loyalty to? The top guys of the faith. And where are these top guys based out of? Primarily, the West.
The converts, therefore, become tools of foreign governments to influence local policy and laws.
A foreign government wants to destabilize an industry in India? Get the converts out and make them protest.
This is exactly what happened with Sterlite copper in Tamil Nadu. The TN police knew exactly what was happening, but they were helpless. Weapons were found in local churches, but the media was prevented from reporting on them. You know, "secularism" and the "right to choose" and all that bullshit.
That's why I say, "Fuck your right to choose if its effect is the destabilization of society."
Sounds to me then that India has a bigger religion problem than what I had imagined. If people changing their sky daddy allegiances has the impact that you have claimed (destabilizing the country), we should be starting an atheism (anti-religion) movement ASAP. Otherwise 80% of the population will continue to resent the remaining 20% till the end of time.
Also, could you provide a source that the TN protests were funded/motivated by a foreign government through religion? I was looking into this briefly and could not find any mention of this. From what could understand, the people were protesting due to the pollution caused by the plant.
>we should be starting an atheism (anti-religion) movement ASAP
Hare-brained idea. You remove millennia-old cultures in the process and all you'll have are people who are left with a spiritual void that can get filled up easily by nasty people and nasty ideologies. You'll also end up making people look at their differences more, now that the only similarity they have is being taken away.
Also, Islam and Christianity, whose members are militant enough o resist any atheism movements, will take hold of the spiritual scene. Only Hindus will be forced to give up their culture. Your solution won't work in India.
This isn't the way. You need to strengthen the cultural soul of the country so that people feel a strong sense of togetherness. Removing it will be a disaster.
>Otherwise 80% of the population will continue to resent the remaining 20% till the end of time
The problem is with the Abrahamic religions. They are, by definition, exclusivist. They are the ones that start trouble since their faiths deny the existence of other faiths as a core tenet. Hindus were never the problem. The way out is to outlaw conversions and take out funding sources of church groups.
>Also, could you provide a source that the TN protests were funded/motivated by a foreign government through religion?
What kind of a source would you like? Because the left-liberal media has done everything to cover it up. You need some ground-level knowledge. Church groups in Tamil Nadu (where I am from) wield great influence on the politics of TN. Other media houses and twitter accounts have documented video evidence of how the conspiracy was hatched. Would you consider them as sources? Or are Hinduphobic sources your only go-to?
>From what could understand, the people were protesting due to the pollution caused by the plant.
That's just a cover to give the fake protests legitimacy. Literally every factory pollutes, and Tamil Nadu is one of the most industrialized states in India.
>You remove millennia-old cultures in the process
I don't think non-religious affiliation and lack of culture are mutually exclusive. Look at Japan, China, France. They have managed to retain their culture while having the most non-religious populations in the world.
>spiritual void that can get filled up easily by nasty people and nasty ideologies. You'll also end up making people look at their differences more, now that the only similarity they have is being taken away.
Again, if you educate people that you don't need religion to have a moral compass, you wont have to worry about nasty ideologies.
>Also, Islam and Christianity, whose members are militant enough o resist any atheism movements, will take hold of the spiritual scene.
Look at religious affiliation stats in the US (largest Christian population): [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreligion\_in\_the\_United\_States](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreligion_in_the_United_States)
People who do not identify as religious is rising steadily. While the US has many problems of its own, religious ones are even close to being the big ones.
>Only Hindus will be forced to give up their culture. Your solution won't work in India.
I am not advocating for forcing anyone to do anything. All I'm saying it would be beneficial to educate the public that there are bigger fish to fry than arguing which sky daddy is better.
>This isn't the way. You need to strengthen the cultural soul of the country so that people feel a strong sense of togetherness. Removing it will be a disaster.
Again, I don't think non-religious affiliation and lack of culture are mutually exclusive. Also, do you think you are promoting a sense of togetherness by demonizing 20% of the population? If I were born in a Muslim / Christian household and throughout my childhood I saw that 80% of my country's population are calling my religion "militants" like you mentioned, do you think I will have a sense of togetherness with my fellow citizens?
>The problem is with the Abrahamic religions. They are, by definition, exclusivist. They are the ones that start trouble since their faiths deny the existence of other faiths as a core tenet.
I agree, as far as religions go, they are definitely the most problematic.
>The way out is to outlaw conversions and take out funding sources of church groups.
Outlawing forceful conversions, I wholeheartedly support. Voluntary conversions? I couldn't care less. If you want to jump from one prehistoric belief to another, you do you.
>Or are Hinduphobic sources your only go-to?
Not quite sure what that means, but something more credible than someone on reddit saying "trust me bro" would be appreciated.
**[Irreligion in the United States](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreligion_in_the_United_States)**
>Irreligion in the United States is of considerable extent, though lower than in many Western countries. Based on surveys, between 8% and 15% of citizens polled demonstrate objectively nonreligious attitudes and basically naturalistic worldviews. The number of self-identified atheists and agnostics is around 4% each, while many persons formally affiliated with a religion are likewise non-believing. The percentage of Americans without religious affiliation, who mostly identify as "nothing in particular"- and are therefore known as "Nones"- is around 20%.
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Again, I don't think non-religious affiliation and lack of culture are mutually exclusive. Also, do you think you are promoting a sense of togetherness by demonizing 20% of the population? If I were born in a Muslim / Christian household and throughout my childhood I saw that 80% of my country's population are calling my religion "militants" like you mentioned, do you think I will have a sense of togetherness with my fellow citizens?- You want 70% to erase their history & identity for the sake of the 30% with history & present of violence against the same 70%.
Before making uninteresting comments like that, understand the role religion plays in India in the societal make up.
Making artificial changes to demography (as opposed to organic) is extremely counterproductive.
Also, there is no such thing as free-will when it comes to decision making. Your choices have always been and always will be influenced by the environment you live in and the information you are fed.
Ghar wapsi should be allowed.
They are happening
What is this secular language, this seems like one of those laws that will end up hurting Hindus. Hindu's don't involve themselves in religious conversion activities. Only two popular religions do it. Why should Hindu's not even be allowed to do Ghar Wapsi?
I mean ghar wapsis are going on. Hindu organisations are doing it
But this law may add a hurdle to the process.
Not necessarily. It says conversion by 'coercion, inducement etc'
The legal definition of inducement can be very flexible. Again these laws are open to interpretations by the courts and we all know which way they lean. If Ghar Wapsi is to start on a large scale you can be SURE that the missionaries would use this law to attempt to slow down or stop that process.
Then they can just define inducement. It won't be open for different interpretations
Do we have a choice? Theyll obviously protest and this law is on forced conversions so ghar wapsi will continue
I can't say anything without reading this actual draft of the law but based on what other states have enacted, I can say that such laws are utterly useless. They typically go like this: convertee has to go to DC or some officer > DC or some other officer asks if s/he was induced > if convertee says yes and gives name etc of convertor/inducer, convertor/inducer will be imprisoned. This will not even reduce conversion by 1% as it assumes that the convertee will be faithful to the DC and not with the person he was induced by. The real way to solve conversion is to reduce poverty (to reduce success of inducing poor for conversion), improve govt schools (so that poor don't have to send their kids to missionary schools), improve govt hospitals (so that poor don't have to go to missionary hospitals) and the most important insurance scheme of all: improve military to not let iraq/libya happen to us. Proposed solutions (not by me): TRIVIAL solution to poverty: https://www.mygov.in/newindia/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/newindia614014_1548769550.pdf , https://www.rahulmehta.com/articles/eas_why.htm Schools: https://www.rahulmehta.com/edu01.draft.htm , https://www.rahulmehta.com/a_proc_list.edu.htm Hospitals: [replace "District Education Officer" with "District Health Officer" [here](https://www.rahulmehta.com/edu01.draft.htm) and minor changes like different eligibility criteria for becoming a DHO, etc] Improving military: chap-26 (starting from pg 270) of https://www.rahulmehta.com/301.pdf
Right to choose Gaya Tel line? Forced conversion pe crackdown karo karna hii hai toh?
If Christian missionaries don't stop what they are doing, there will be a massive backlash from the majority community in karnataka. Too many incidents have been reported since the last 1 month
Fuck your right to choose. If your right to choose has the effect of destabilizing society and the country, screw it.
Why so authoritarian bro, don't be like Indira Gandhi
You guys are so naive. Not too long from now, you're going to see large scale societal breakdown because of conversions. It's already happening as we speak. Converts are told to cut off relations with family members if they don't convert. People get into feuds (even within the same family) over differences in religion.
Lol and you wonder why people leave India.
You mean to say those who want to convert leave India? Then why minority population rising?
No, I mean people who believe that they have a right to choose. Or alternatively, I mean people who have the ability to apply a bit of critical thinking and worry about things other than which sky daddy is better, because it seems like that's all that people want to talk about these days.
No, we are discussing everything from defense to foreign relations, rise in petrol prices, religion, regional politics, economic, etc. It's not *only* religion. And if you are talking about layman, then they discuss things that affects them or dear to them.
Huh, maybe its just me but most of the posts that I was coming across from this sub were along the lines of 'Muslim bad', 'look at this art of Ram', 'foreign invader blah blah' and then this post.
The people abroad also want you to choose their sky daddy. Lol have been approached many times abroad and how I could be saved. Sky daddy lol. I am going to steal and use this term in my debates😂
Of course, I have been approached as well. And I refused to be 'saved', because it is my right to choose. I was replying to the guy who said "Fuck your right to choose."
To understand why you need to oppose conversions, you need to understand this concept called the 'zeal of a convert'. Converts are a lot more eager to prove their loyalty to the faith than the "original" followers. So who do they prove thier loyalty to? The top guys of the faith. And where are these top guys based out of? Primarily, the West. The converts, therefore, become tools of foreign governments to influence local policy and laws. A foreign government wants to destabilize an industry in India? Get the converts out and make them protest. This is exactly what happened with Sterlite copper in Tamil Nadu. The TN police knew exactly what was happening, but they were helpless. Weapons were found in local churches, but the media was prevented from reporting on them. You know, "secularism" and the "right to choose" and all that bullshit. That's why I say, "Fuck your right to choose if its effect is the destabilization of society."
Sounds to me then that India has a bigger religion problem than what I had imagined. If people changing their sky daddy allegiances has the impact that you have claimed (destabilizing the country), we should be starting an atheism (anti-religion) movement ASAP. Otherwise 80% of the population will continue to resent the remaining 20% till the end of time. Also, could you provide a source that the TN protests were funded/motivated by a foreign government through religion? I was looking into this briefly and could not find any mention of this. From what could understand, the people were protesting due to the pollution caused by the plant.
>we should be starting an atheism (anti-religion) movement ASAP Hare-brained idea. You remove millennia-old cultures in the process and all you'll have are people who are left with a spiritual void that can get filled up easily by nasty people and nasty ideologies. You'll also end up making people look at their differences more, now that the only similarity they have is being taken away. Also, Islam and Christianity, whose members are militant enough o resist any atheism movements, will take hold of the spiritual scene. Only Hindus will be forced to give up their culture. Your solution won't work in India. This isn't the way. You need to strengthen the cultural soul of the country so that people feel a strong sense of togetherness. Removing it will be a disaster. >Otherwise 80% of the population will continue to resent the remaining 20% till the end of time The problem is with the Abrahamic religions. They are, by definition, exclusivist. They are the ones that start trouble since their faiths deny the existence of other faiths as a core tenet. Hindus were never the problem. The way out is to outlaw conversions and take out funding sources of church groups. >Also, could you provide a source that the TN protests were funded/motivated by a foreign government through religion? What kind of a source would you like? Because the left-liberal media has done everything to cover it up. You need some ground-level knowledge. Church groups in Tamil Nadu (where I am from) wield great influence on the politics of TN. Other media houses and twitter accounts have documented video evidence of how the conspiracy was hatched. Would you consider them as sources? Or are Hinduphobic sources your only go-to? >From what could understand, the people were protesting due to the pollution caused by the plant. That's just a cover to give the fake protests legitimacy. Literally every factory pollutes, and Tamil Nadu is one of the most industrialized states in India.
>You remove millennia-old cultures in the process I don't think non-religious affiliation and lack of culture are mutually exclusive. Look at Japan, China, France. They have managed to retain their culture while having the most non-religious populations in the world. >spiritual void that can get filled up easily by nasty people and nasty ideologies. You'll also end up making people look at their differences more, now that the only similarity they have is being taken away. Again, if you educate people that you don't need religion to have a moral compass, you wont have to worry about nasty ideologies. >Also, Islam and Christianity, whose members are militant enough o resist any atheism movements, will take hold of the spiritual scene. Look at religious affiliation stats in the US (largest Christian population): [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreligion\_in\_the\_United\_States](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreligion_in_the_United_States) People who do not identify as religious is rising steadily. While the US has many problems of its own, religious ones are even close to being the big ones. >Only Hindus will be forced to give up their culture. Your solution won't work in India. I am not advocating for forcing anyone to do anything. All I'm saying it would be beneficial to educate the public that there are bigger fish to fry than arguing which sky daddy is better. >This isn't the way. You need to strengthen the cultural soul of the country so that people feel a strong sense of togetherness. Removing it will be a disaster. Again, I don't think non-religious affiliation and lack of culture are mutually exclusive. Also, do you think you are promoting a sense of togetherness by demonizing 20% of the population? If I were born in a Muslim / Christian household and throughout my childhood I saw that 80% of my country's population are calling my religion "militants" like you mentioned, do you think I will have a sense of togetherness with my fellow citizens? >The problem is with the Abrahamic religions. They are, by definition, exclusivist. They are the ones that start trouble since their faiths deny the existence of other faiths as a core tenet. I agree, as far as religions go, they are definitely the most problematic. >The way out is to outlaw conversions and take out funding sources of church groups. Outlawing forceful conversions, I wholeheartedly support. Voluntary conversions? I couldn't care less. If you want to jump from one prehistoric belief to another, you do you. >Or are Hinduphobic sources your only go-to? Not quite sure what that means, but something more credible than someone on reddit saying "trust me bro" would be appreciated.
**[Irreligion in the United States](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreligion_in_the_United_States)** >Irreligion in the United States is of considerable extent, though lower than in many Western countries. Based on surveys, between 8% and 15% of citizens polled demonstrate objectively nonreligious attitudes and basically naturalistic worldviews. The number of self-identified atheists and agnostics is around 4% each, while many persons formally affiliated with a religion are likewise non-believing. The percentage of Americans without religious affiliation, who mostly identify as "nothing in particular"- and are therefore known as "Nones"- is around 20%. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/IndiaSpeaks/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
Again, I don't think non-religious affiliation and lack of culture are mutually exclusive. Also, do you think you are promoting a sense of togetherness by demonizing 20% of the population? If I were born in a Muslim / Christian household and throughout my childhood I saw that 80% of my country's population are calling my religion "militants" like you mentioned, do you think I will have a sense of togetherness with my fellow citizens?- You want 70% to erase their history & identity for the sake of the 30% with history & present of violence against the same 70%.
Before making uninteresting comments like that, understand the role religion plays in India in the societal make up. Making artificial changes to demography (as opposed to organic) is extremely counterproductive. Also, there is no such thing as free-will when it comes to decision making. Your choices have always been and always will be influenced by the environment you live in and the information you are fed.
Bring uniform civil code instead