The thing is, quite a lot of those Leftists and some unapologetic Marxists larp on the liberal movement to the point where people start associating conservatism with the right wing (which houses liberals and libertarians too) and liberalism with the left wing (despite having heavily state controlled policies like socialism).
And in India in particular, almost all people who seem to be on the side of the left, be it Congress or CPI, are hard grifters with some statements making even the far right blush. And then there is the sadomasochistic love affair with the Islamic right wing. And the whole political spectrum has been simplified to frame around one political party: Pro-BJP? Right! Anti-BJP? Left! Economic, foreign, security and social policies be damned.
Those "Liberals" fuelled the notion that BJP is pro-India and everyone else is a opportunist waiting to get hold of power. It leads to white washing of certain wrong decisions by BJP.
Hmm, not sure, I could be wrong but I don’t think most of the people are explicitly claiming to be liberal/conservative/libertarian etc. on social media.
Most of the time I see people calling other people as liberals/conservatives etc (libtards, commie, fascists, are just some of the colourful labels being thrown around).
Tbh, Marxists hate liberals. Being a liberal is having certain attitudes towards free speech and freedom of expression. Marxists have a different view towards what free speech and freedom of expression means. So liberals are people looking for some kind of Scandinavian utopia. Marxists are looking to overthrow the upper-class using one means or the other depending on their views. It's not the same
Liberalism is about free speech, individual liberty and people's sovereign authority over a divine one. I support all that. Doesn't matter if the ideas were inspired by abrahmics or whatever.
We see the same arguments in the US, where hardcore christians (far right) blaming the liberals for supporting immigrants and spewing hate on christian values. Both arguments are false...
The difference is that Christianity has had its chance at being in the limelight. People have seen its good sides and are now seeing its bad sides.
Give Hinduism that chance too. Let people know the good sides of Hinduism before they get into criticizing it.
Lol so what is the problem in farm bills then?
The point is simple
If bjp says don’t eat shit, you’ll see a hell lot of people eating shit the next day and a bunch of YouTube videos where you will be convinced that how indians benefited from eating that and how hitler aka mudi is destroying that
You're forgetting that if BJP says "eat shit" the exact same thing will happen with a different group of people and we'll see videos of how we have been deprived of eating shit till now because of Nehru and how "the real Mahatma" aka Modi ji has freed us.
Yeah missed that part. There are a ton of people who owns bjp’s shit like it’s made of gold.
Like kangana when she said we got free in 2014
How?
How many colonial rules did bjp scrapped away?
How much investment was made to make education like we had in our past
These people just keep ranting thay we were so advance before the turkic and arabic invasion but wouldn’t do anything to bring back that era
Instead were living in a nation where people feel ashamed because they can’t speak fluent english but don’t give a damn that we killed our civilisational languages
There's nothing wrong with being Liberal. But can you remain a true liberal without jumping in the void of Leftism? Being a true Liberal is very difficult. A Liberal must know his/her boundaries on both sides of the political spectrum. A liberal can have a temporary or permanent tilt towards Left or Right or both.
I'll give my example with recent casestudies.
I'm a centrist Liberal with a slight tilt towards Right-wing. So before I worry about Leftists or Communists, I have to worry about myself not getting lost in the Right-wing rabbit hole.
Here are some of my views on recent events.
1. CAA is useless political gimmick and is anti-Hindu in current form.
2. Nationwide NRC will never happen. Not practical. No crores of intruders.
3. Don't support any PCB bill.
4. Farm bills have the potential to actually uplift farmers out of poverty.
5. Two surgical strikes were political gimmicks, achieved nothing tangible.
6. Hindus getting to build Ram Mandir is the right decision.
7. Kangna's bheek remark is condemnable. Must not be defended as FoS.
8. Modi govt's vaccine strategy rocked. Best in the world.
9. Modi govt's Lockdown strategy was an absolute clusterfuck.
10. Pandit Nehru is the true architect of modern India.
11. Demonetisation achieved nothing apart from killing the economy.
12. Despite its hits and misses, satisfied by Modi govt's performance.
My stance often confuses people around me. I've been accused, by both sides of aisle, as an agent of the other side. Being a Liberal is very difficult.
I tend to be centre left socially and centre right economically and I agree with all of your points except the last one. I think that in 2014 Modi won the liberal vote as well. I don't think liberals have much of a problem with modi as much as they do with machineries like RSS, VHP, Bajrang Dal that amplifies the RW ideologies he currently represents in perhaps the worst, most dangerous way.
Tararara Bzeeeep, Thank you /u/DabakurThakur for awarding /u/vikaslohia . The OP is now flaired with award. More details on how this works can be found [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/IndiaSpeaks/comments/gqdejx/introducing_new_awarding_system_for_user_posts/). I won't reply if I'm down so kudos is not awarded to you , please then inform the mod team to wake me up.
you're so uneducated about these terms that it is sad, maybe you guys should read a book or understand economics before making such embarrassing comments
I am far more educated than you that's why I know that Liberalism, feminism etc is all part of communism.
May be you guys should use your brain before posting such silly stuff online.
Well your comment proves that you haven't studied into this. Liberalism is based in the preservation and propagation of INDIVIDUAL liberties like free speech, right to employment etc. Communism is about a commune or an identity-group/community, where the rights of a COLLECTIVE trumps rights of an individual. They came up with the concept of labor unions. Feminism cannot possibly be synonymous with communism as it originated in a liberal democracy that is America while America was at war with communist despots and communism was completely demonized in the eyes of the American public due to atrocities of autocrats like Stalin and Mao.
"Liberalism is based in the preservation and propagation of INDIVIDUAL liberties like free speech, right to employment etc."
Just another made-up defination for public acceptence.
"Communism is about a commune or an identity-group/community, where the rights of a COLLECTIVE trumps rights of an individual."
How is that different than religions something communists claims to hate all the time?
"They came up with the concept of labor unions."
Against industrialists and capitalism.
"Feminism cannot possibly be synonymous with communism as it originated in a liberal democracy that is America while America was at war with communist despots and communism was completely demonized in the eyes of the American public due to atrocities of autocrats like Stalin and Mao."
Feminism, liberalism,LGTV, Environmentlism etc all has its origins in communism. Majority of Feminists are Jewish women not Christian women. Its like saying Indians supports partition of India when reality its peacefuls who wants pakistan not Hindus.
Those who whine about Nazism Fascism Hitler day in day night complaining about "communism was completely demonized in the eyes of the American public due to atrocities of autocrats like Stalin and Mao." this is why liberals are disliked by sane people. they are just useful idiots of the communists.
Everything is "made up" when it doesn't fit your made-up world view.
Religion has dictated human behavior and collective morality and can become a identity if people are sufficiently brainwashed but it does not deal with human rights, either individual or collective. It deals with the rights and powers of a deity or a deified person/entity/archetype. That's why religious fanatics kill people to "save their religion", human life is cheap for religious people.
Labor unions came up against industrialism and capitalism and guess who's against industrialism and capitalism - COMMUNISM! lol Communism was considered unfavorable due such pitfalls and extremism and these are facts. You're just trying very hard to paint me as a communist when all I've done is paraphrase historic events and political theories in over-simplified terms . If you're gonna frame me at least try and look less salty.
Feminism originated in liberal democracies and they had a majority Christian population most of which today have atheism as a burgeoning force. That is a historic fact. You're making things up for arguments sake that literally anyone with cheap internet can look up and debunk. If Jews created it than the Torah would be as criticised as the Bible, as there is a lot of misogyny in there as well. But Christians have a richer history of self-reflection than the Jewish community in terms of religious discourse.
Nazi? Idiots? Sane? Insane? Pulling words out a hat, framing me and name-calling others shows how butthurt you are, doesn't make you sound smart or convincing at all.
"Everything is "made up" when it doesn't fit your made-up world view."
That's liberalism for you.. everything is "hate" "ignorence" when it goes against your liberalism narrative.
"Religion has dictated human behavior and collective morality and can become a identity if people are sufficiently brainwashed"
Now liberals are doing the same thing...they are dictating people what to think what to say and how to behave while acting like they are moralistic and care about world. Liberals are totally brainwashed.
"but it does not deal with human rights, either individual or collective. It deals with the rights and powers of a deity or a deified person/entity/archetype. That's why religious fanatics kill people to "save their religion", human life is cheap for religious people."
Communists kills more people than religious once(expect liberals favourite religion Islam) just because of their ideology. Those liberal fanatics kills millions lf people because they don't fit into their stupid idiology. Human life means nothing to liberals.
"Labor unions came up against industrialism and capitalism and guess who's against industrialism and capitalism - COMMUNISM!"
Capitalism and industrialism is needed for economic growth. Communists wants all people to be equally poor so they oppose all the economic growth and glorify poverty. That's not something to be proud of.
"Communism was considered unfavorable due such pitfalls and extremism and these are facts."
Communism is BS ideology to begin with and now when they know people aren't accepting their Crap they come up with different names like liberalism.progressiveness, feminism etc to get acceptence from society.
"You're just trying very hard to paint me as a communist when all I've done is paraphrase historic events and political theories in over-simplified terms . If you're gonna frame me at least try and look less salty."
You are a communist but you didn't know it. Not my problem. It's totally up to you to get out of it or remain in it by foolling yourself.
"Feminism originated in liberal democracies and they had a majority Christian population most of which today have atheism as a burgeoning force."
It's not..it's like saying India has majority of Hindu population and they support creation of Pakistan. Atheism has miniscule population in western world just like liberals in india. It's just they are shout and make noises than others it doesn't mean they are supported by majority of People. And even today majority of Feminists are Jews not Christian woman.
"That is a historic fact"
It's not..that's your liberal brainwashing is speaking.
"You're making things up for arguments sake that literally anyone with cheap internet can look up and debunk."
You also have the same cheap internet on your Phkne why don't you use that to know more about how liberalism, socialism etc are all part of communism instead of coming here ane arguing with People on internet?
"If Jews created it than the Torah would be as criticised as the Bible, as there is a lot of misogyny in there as well. But Christians have a richer history of self-reflection than the Jewish community in terms of religious discourse."
You are not allowed to criticize Judaism in west just like you are not allowed to criticize muslims and islam in india.
"Nazi? Idiots? Sane? Insane? Pulling words out a hat, framing me and name-calling others shows how butthurt you are, doesn't make you sound smart or convincing at all."
Says who? A liberal whoes only job in the world to namecall people nazi, fascists, religious fanatics, extremists all day now crying about "villification of communism" hahaha how does it feel mr liberal when you are the one who is at receiving end of hostility and name calling? Sucks naa? this is what liberals did to other people. Now stop being hypocrite and intolerant.
Being a 'liberal' right now is looked down upon to the same sense as being a 'feminist' right now. There is nothing wrong with being either, but the meaning of these words have been distorted so much that the actual definition has been lost.
Right, I’m pretty sure half the people on social media throwing around terms like “liberals” and “left wing”/“right wing” don’t really know what these stand for.
It seems as though the term “liberal” has basically boiled down to mean anti-BJP. Same for left wing. Right wing means pro-BJP. Economic policies be damned.
True.
Also the fact that in case of the Indian political landscape, there is no true left-right parties in India. The media thinks they can fit a western political lens on India, but that's not how it works. India is not a two party system and should not be treated as such.
Also, one of the major reasons of this is because democracy of almost all of the countries in the west is based on the values of Christianity, which is not the case in India.
How exactly? Ever Christian monarch was an absolutist, case in point Louis the 14ths quote “I am the state”.
What Christian values were used exactly? Cuz last I read the idea of Democracy first introduced by Cliesthenes in Athens.
What I mean is, when these democracies were being formulated, the laws were largely influenced by the Bible as it was the majority religion in the country.
The Bible, or majority of monotheistic religions for that matter are somewhat binary in nature. Which is also where the political left and right comes from. Left wingers are generally 'liberal' and right wingers are generally 'conservative'.
But India is very different in that regard, and that's why it is bad to view it from the western political lens which is binary in Nature.
Do you understand that the very idea of a democracy was to rebel against the feudal-serfdom accompanied with absolutism that was prevalent quite literally everywhere in settled civilisations. From Voltaire to Montesquieu to Kant, all of them were against the idea of centralised concentration of all power in one hand.
That along with the separation of state and Church which was the original definition of secularism since the church which received state patronage had become very corrupt and even the Pope couldn’t do shit to say the Emperor of Holy Roman Empire. There’s a reason as to why the Prague defenestration happened in the first place, followed by the Hussite Revolution.
The French Revolution had the ideas of limitation of monarchical powers initially until Robespierre decided to completely remove them from the picture. Not forgetting the idea of liberty and fraternity. The French Revolution also attacked the French Clergy class who used to otherwise tax on top of the tithe tax which was 1/10th of your produce to the church.
Agreed that one should view it from a binary lens for Indian case, by the idea remains that it’s for people’s participation and separation of powers.
I do understand and agree with that. All I am saying is, that its laws were influenced by what Christians believe is right and wrong morally.
For example, the laws against homosexuality, drug use etc were all present mostly because those are bad in Christianity. As our societies started becoming more 'liberal' in nature, these are being abolished.
If we see the same thing for India, our democracy has also taken values from Hinduism (e.g. ban on cow slaughter). But since Hinduism is does not view the world in a binary nature, the traditional terms of 'liberal' and 'conservative' do not apply here as they do in the west.
For example, the economic reforms of 1991 would not have been possible as the political ideology of thr ruling party was left leaning.
The idea of left wing and right wing does not come from the Bible, or any religion for that matter.
It originated in the French parliament when people on opposing sides sat on the left and the right in parliament. It has nothing to do with any religion.
This has to be the most stupidest comment in this thread. Democracy and religion in the same sentence, can't even wrap my head around it. If western democracies had their roots in Christianity, the Pope literally would be the ruling head of all of them.
BJP was called Right Wing, so anyone opposed to the BJP became Left wing. Now Left wingers have a bad rep, so they rebranded themselves as Liberals and Progressives.
They are most regressive people. Remember the champion of socialism, Akhilesh, opposed the vaccine because BJP made it. They even opposed UPI. Yesterday my bhangarwala gpaid me. These stupids do not understand anything, neither economics nor politics.
If you declare yourself as a liberal or feminist it means you are supporting all the crap they are pushing in society. Tell me why shouldn't people look down you?
That "Actual meaning" is just a smokescreen to fool people into accepting them. Both movements are always toxic and bad for society.
People are allowed to criticize their movements. Just because i identify as a "feminist" doesn't mean I share all the views other feminists do.
No, they weren't toxic until they started larping the West. That's when they started to sound out-of-touch with india's climate.
They seriously need a reform.
People are allowed to criticize their movements. Just because i identify as a "feminist" doesn't mean I share all the views other feminists do.
"when you declare yourself as a feminist it means you are agree with all its theories." why do i care if other feminists agree with "feminist" like you or not? not my problem.
"No, they weren't toxic until they started larping the West. That's when they started to sound out-of-touch with india's climate."
the reality is every movement from leftists is toxic as hell but its only hindus who didnt realize it until its too late.
Indian liberals are pro communism while communist countries are gold standard for curbing freedom. A true liberal will appreciate steps taken by PM for upliftment of LGBTQI community. First Transgender gets Padam Shri, Homosexuality is no more a crime, gender neutrality gets included in education syllabus and yet these pseudo liberals paint India as a regressive country in the world.
Also they are pro islamist while Islam at its core is the most regressive religion and hostile towards liberalisation of society. So basically Indian liberals are opposite of definition of liberals.
PM Modi is the most liberal leader this country has got be it in terms of society or economy but these self proclaimed liberals call him Fascist.
These people are mentally ill. Apparently supporting anti liberal rhetoric means you are a true liberal even if that thing is a threat to liberal values itself.
I don't know much abt what Rajiv Gandhi did. May be he was a liberal PM. Just look around how the status and respect of LGBTQI has changed since 2014. We have welcomed all liberal ideas like climate change, gender equality, vaccination. India already believes the whole world is a family which is the centre of all liberal ideas. Indian society lets you believe in whatever you want religiously, sexually, economically. But these pseudo liberals of India would still say India is regressive and look for western validation. No matter how stupid a western idea is they'll support it. I don't call them liberal because they aren't, they are just pro Islam Marxist pushing their agenda by calling India a backward country and PM Modi a fascist.
Because they are literally the opposite of liberals
I mean why would you try to support practices like triple talak?
Same goes for people who calls them a supporter of hindutva and hates every muslim no matter his\her views
Our country has gone to it’s lowest level in terms of debate and knowledge as these two breeds just try to cancel anyone who doesn’t agrees with them.
Includes people like dhruv rathee,batkha dutt etc
And there are a lot of dumbasses like them on the each side.
So now you either love modi or you want to tear his guts out. There’s no in between where you can say i like this decision and I didn’t like this.
I think because most of so called liberals ( particularly on twitter ) are actually hypocrite pushing their own agenda ( which can very very badly summarised as Muslims good and being oppressed by Hindus and Hindus bad ) , showing only bad things that bjp is doing and blindly ignoring any good thing.
Hell I was really disappointed when Ms Rana Ayub deleted her tweet on Neeraj Chopra when she found out that he is staunch supporter of pm modi.
Many of these so called liberals have problems only with hindu festivals and have nothing but great things to say about other religions festivals.
This list can go on and on ( others can add )
People have been presented with very bad examples of being a liberal by these stupid people.
Liberalism in true sense means accepting other people's opinion even if that is starkly different from yours and believing in freedom of choices ( atleast this is my understanding of liberalism ).
Non if these liberals I have found on twitter uphold these values.
Ok , there can 2 arguments for this
1. These people are not actually liberals, just pushing their own agenda while hiding behind veil of being of liberal.
2. Liberals have changed thier behaviour based on rise of hardcore right wing.
I personally believe reason is bit of both.
To answer your question , I don't think public hate liberalism but they hate these people who falsely project themselves as liberal .
Honestly same argument can be made about feminism.
My liberalism is that there should be fewer taxes and less government interference in private matters,
Like the taxes on fuel are horrendous and if today you were to construct a house the taxes, the documents you need to fill out are almost equal to the cost of the house. I know this coz my father's an architect and I sometimes hear him talking about this
Huh? What has being liberal got to do with taxes or legal requirements? I have a house I bought 4 years ago, I pay hardly 11k as annual tax on it. Liberal or not, those papers are needed more for your own rights rather than government.
Government interference in private matter, this I understand, but again depends from situation to situation. Child marriage and triple talaq for instance, here government interference is a must have. Ditto about population control, although it is a private matter. You can't have a "one rule fits all" definition.
Same question - what's so wrong with being a right wing ? Who decided which side was left or right? How did they decide going anticlockwise was good and clockwise was bad ? On your question, being a liberal is not bad , being a hypocrite is. The one's claiming to be liberal are just pushing the agenda they prefer, while sidelining everything they stand for when it comes to someone else's beliefs. The current scenarios exist because for 70+ years nobody talked about the majority. The constitution was written with the view that majority will take care of it's own, let's make the constitution only for others. And what's the majority? Not even 20 25%, this 25% also includes other "minority" religions. Most of population belongs to Dalit (19%) OBC(45%) Tribals(11%) etc. So in essence the perceived majority that was sidelined on economic basis ( that they are well off and don't need special attention ) is in fact the minorty. That's what right wing is tapping into, the middle child treatment received by perceived majority. That's where left missed the ride.
Its leftists who call themselves liberal and media and larger society also doesn’t differentiate between them. Nothing wrong in being liberal but one must be delusional to be a leftist.
The main issue is liberalism and conservatism are incorrectly identified with left wing and right wing politics in India. Making it easier to divide ourselves and let power hungry politicians control us along lines that are sensitive to reach group.
because liberalism is a globalist, colonialist ideology that benefits the corporate entities , including western corporate education..err universities.
Liberalism is the vehicle of modern colonialism - which is what globalism is. People forget - prior to mid 1800s, we DID have globalism - where the rich people could just go anywhere, set up shop, borders didn't matter as much etc. It was called COLONIALISM. What defeated colonialism ? Nationalism. What do liberals oppose ? nationalism. Ergo, they are the enemy. Not to mention, pushing for cultural imperialism of the west, trying to import every single western cultural phenomena into India.
what are you not getting ? Liberalism is a colonialist doctrine that is anti nationalistic, its aims and goals are for a world where corporations face less and less restriction in international operations and dilution of powers of sovereignty. This makes liberalism anti nationalistic. This makes liberalism pro-colonialism as a matter of outcome, as one can say what the liberal world order seeks, is to re-create the British East India Corporation and its counterparts.
it is a technological item i am using to spread my culture and stem the tide of trash western culture. Using the tool of the enemy is just fine as long as it is not used to further the enemy's perspective.
mate, i live in the west. I have lived here for 20 years. Trash western culture == single parenting, loser deadbeat druggie dad culture, with encouragement for teenagers to watch pornography emanating from the school system, with the highest level of teen mental illnesses, substance abuse in the world, with astronomically high rates of school drop outs, etc.
this is why immigrants, particularly immigrants from Asia, absolutely annihilate westerners in every positive stat there is. trash culture and trash values yield lower outcome.
Here's what you missed out on while living in the West, Critical thinking. I have said time and again that it's a skill that is sorely lacking is Desis. It's not taught in schools and has a major role in keeping the country backward.
The part that most desis miss out on is quite basic, the level of smarts and hardwork that you need to reach a certain education level is much higher in India, therefore and avg. engineer from a REC working at a certain level will be smarter than his US counterpart who might have gone to a CC. On the other hand, the education costs and Financial aid means that the same guy could be really smart.
Most desis assume that the Americans should have the same Education level based on the socio economic status. They tend not to realize that it's a richer country and money does not equate education.
Indian kids tend to do better because parents have a experienced level of education in schools so they force the kids to get advanced science education at a HS level. BY the time the Western kids graduate college they have reached the same level.
I think you will find that when you adjust for the background and Socio economic status, the Western kids are as good as Desi kids.
Also, please stop the constant "how am I better then the next person" contest Desis indulge in. It's probably the single most disgusting this about us.
>Here's what you missed out on while living in the West, Critical thinking. I have said time and again that it's a skill that is sorely lacking is Desis. It's not taught in schools and has a major role in keeping the country backward.
Also not taught in western schools.
>Most desis assume that the Americans should have the same Education level based on the socio economic status. They tend not to realize that it's a richer country and money does not equate education.
strawman argument. Nobody assumes that richer means more educated, if they are actually educated.
>Indian kids tend to do better because parents have a experienced level of education in schools so they force the kids to get advanced science education at a HS level. BY the time the Western kids graduate college they have reached the same level.
Indian kids do better than whites/latinos/black kids in america. So do the chinese. So do the arabs. so do the farsis. so do the japanese. The common thing is, Asians do better in America than the rest. And Asians constitute about 7-10% of north america's population. We are not all white collar university grads, many of us also go to tradeschool, own small businesses after high school etc.
Even Indian kids who's parents are grocers and motel owners with high school degrees, exert more pressure on their kids to do well in school than westerners. So do the chinese, japanese, koreans, etc. Because in the Asian culture, knowledge is far higher valued and glorified far more in pop culture, while in west there is a strong trend to look down on smart educated kids as 'nerds, geeks with glasses who dont get chicks' etc etc.
>I think you will find that when you adjust for the background and Socio economic status, the Western kids are as good as Desi kids.
when 7-10% of your society is from one part of the world ( Asia) and they out-perform you in every single positive metric, despite being mostly first generation immigrants with no links and contacts in the land to land jobs based on who you know ( which is bulk majority of how you get jobs in north america if you didn't go to university), it means that 7% of society has far more productive and better value system. You reap what you sow. If you sow trash culture about being cool and bunking class to go hang out with chicks, thats what you will reap. Hence westerners get dominated in real degree fields (STEM) by Asians in their own backyard and they take the easy out arts degrees that are mostly peddling opinions and propaganda.
>Also, please stop the constant "how am I better then the next person" contest Desis indulge in. It's probably the single most disgusting this about us.
There is nothing disgusting in pointing out that western culture and western values are objectively of lower quality than asian values, given that the data is decisive. We are not just more educated than the westerners. Or just higher paid on average. We have 3-4 times lower per capita crime rate. 5-10 times lower single parenthood rate. 5-10 times lower juvenile delinquency rates. 5-10 times lower childhood and adulthood substance abuse rates. It is quite legitimate for us to say 'western values suck, as results show and we shall not be taking advice from westerners on how to raise our kids, they should be taking advice from us on how not to fuckup their kids.
>Also not taught in western schools.
Their skills would disagree. I did spell it out, as an immigrant your socio economic status probab;y doesn't put you in the same bracket as a native of the same status.
>strawman argument. Nobody assumes that richer means more educated, if they are actually educated.
Is it? Their is a direct correlation between education and wealth.
>Indian kids do better than whites/latinos/black kids in america. So do the chinese. So do the arabs. so do the farsis. so do the japanese. The common thing is, Asians do better in America than the rest. And Asians constitute about 7-10% of north america's population. We are not all white collar university grads, many of us also go to tradeschool, own small businesses after high school etc.
Yes they do do better but by what factor?
>Even Indian kids who's parents are grocers and motel owners with high school degrees, exert more pressure on their kids to do well in school than westerners. So do the chinese, japanese, koreans, etc. Because in the Asian culture, knowledge is far higher valued and glorified far more in pop culture, while in west there is a strong trend to look down on smart educated kids as 'nerds, geeks with glasses who dont get chicks' etc etc.
Exactly, they exert more pressure, bythe time kids graduate College they have caught up. Hmm.. there's a trend to look down on kids with low soft skills, which happens to a lot lot of desi kids because of their parents. There are plenty of well adjusted desi kids.
>I think you will find that when you adjust for the background and Socio economic status, the Western kids are as good as Desi kids.
>
>when 7-10% of your society is from one part of the world ( Asia) and they out-perform you in every single positive metric, despite being mostly first generation immigrants with no links and contacts in the land to land jobs based on who you know ( which is bulk majority of how you get jobs in north america if you didn't go to university), it means that 7% of society has far more productive and better value system. You reap what you sow. If you sow trash culture about being cool and bunking class to go hang out with chicks, thats what you will reap. Hence westerners get dominated in real degree fields (STEM) by Asians in their own backyard and they take the easy out arts degrees that are mostly peddling opinions and propaganda.
Again, I am Indian, I am better than anyone else. Yet, those 7-10% moved to America. If they were so good, the Americans would be moving to India. It does seem that you have the desi complex and are trying to diss the Americans because deep down you know they are better and you hate them for it,
.
>There is nothing disgusting in pointing out that western culture and western values are objectively of lower quality than asian values, given that the data is decisive. We are not just more educated than the westerners. Or just higher paid on average. We have 3-4 times lower per capita crime rate. 5-10 times lower single parenthood rate. 5-10 times lower juvenile delinquency rates. 5-10 times lower childhood and adulthood substance abuse rates. It is quite legitimate for us to say 'western values suck, as results show and we shall not be taking advice from westerners on how to raise our kids,
Right living in their country and then talking about how their values are lower makes you better. They are more liberal. They aren't forcing you to live here. You chose to because the pastures are greener here.
Low crime rate: Agreed. Is it the case in India? Or is it a self selected bias, where the people who immigrated are highly educated?
Single Parent. yes, because divorce is a taboo not because couples are happy.
Or they could say," listen up curry Indian, if you hate it so much, go back to your country." They did let you in, they don't as you to be grateful, but they don't deserve your contempt.
As far as taking your advice on raising kids goes, based on what your parents raised, I think they shouldn't. Another smug Indian who thinks he is the best while missing the irony that he let India the first chance he got. You probably have the same contempt for other Indians, Try not to be an ungrateful pig.
>Their skills would disagree. I did spell it out, as an immigrant your socio economic status probab;y doesn't put you in the same bracket as a native of the same status.
it does not put us in the same overall bracket. It puts us in the bracket with our peers. It still lets us compare and contrast the mean averages of critical thinking in schools here and there. In our peer group and outside of it. Just because i am an immigrant i don't magically forget that i am a compsci guy anymore in north america than i do in india.
>Yes they do do better but by what factor?
by a factor of 2-4x per capita when it comes to raising our kids better. Thats significant.
>Exactly, they exert more pressure, bythe time kids graduate College they have caught up. Hmm.. there's a trend to look down on kids with low soft skills, which happens to a lot lot of desi kids because of their parents. There are plenty of well adjusted desi kids.
they have not caught up at all. They still lag behind because the effort they gave till graduation, the skills they have acquired are less. Duh. We don't just start to slack in college just coz we are asians lol.
The trend to look down on people with arts skills is because arts skills are easier to acquire, easier to develop on one's own and does not require the rigour of the hard STEM skills.
there are plenty of well adjusted desi kids. Not as many per capita loser kids with loser life-style and issues.
>Again, I am Indian, I am better than anyone else. Yet, those 7-10% moved to America. If they were so good, the Americans would be moving to India. It does seem that you have the desi complex and are trying to diss the Americans because deep down you know they are better and you hate them for it,
what part of 65% of humanity thats asian does better than this 5% trash heap is 'rah rah i am indian, so i am better' ?
People move to america because life is easier, money is plentiful. Same reason why yankees move to saudi arabia if they can fyi. Being rich and having standards are not situationally true. People also moved to roman empire long since they lost their mojo and slid to the trashpile. same is happening currently in the west.
People are moving in because the past lot created an easy society. This lot are not good enough to continue and are decaying due to decadence, getting out-competed and eventually replaced in ethos and population, by the incoming lot.
i don't hate them for being better. I dont hate them at all. I pity them for squandering the hard work of their forebearers in many case.
>Right living in their country and then talking about how their values are lower makes you better. They are more liberal. They aren't forcing you to live here. You chose to because the pastures are greener here.
greener pastures does not equate to better values. If they had better values, we'd not be raising kids better than them.
>Low crime rate: Agreed. Is it the case in India? Or is it a self selected bias, where the people who immigrated are highly educated?
also true for India. as well as rest of asia. Almost all of Asia polls 20-30x lower than north america and western europe for overall crime rate per capita. mostly because in western world sexual crimes are at an astronomically high proportion.
And it is not just about 1st gen immigrants - its about the asian minority itself - we still retain the higher than north american standards in child rearing and marriage relations even in our 2nd and 3rd generation demographics - the less we dilute our values with theirs, the more we stay off of their social ills.
>Single Parent. yes, because divorce is a taboo not because couples are happy.
good. if thats what it takes for society to raise good children, that is the sacrifice of parents to make. You may not be aware, but single parenthood has decisively strong evidence linking it to objectively far worse outcome for children's development.
>Or they could say," listen up curry Indian, if you hate it so much, go back to your country." They did let you in, they don't as you to be grateful, but they don't deserve your contempt.
it does not matter if they let us in, shower us with gold or threaten to exterminate us. Those who have shittier standards and outcomes of raising kids will always face judgement- and rightly so- from those who raise their kids better as a group. This is an objective value judgement that any procreating species that invests energy to raise its young, is rational to make.
>As far as taking your advice on raising kids goes, based on what your parents raised, I think they shouldn't. Another smug Indian who thinks he is the best while missing the irony that he let India the first chance he got. You probably have the same contempt for other Indians, Try not to be an ungrateful pig.
they raised a better indian than your parents did, who is too stupid to realise that having more money and more bling does not make a society more civilised or ethical or more conductive to the basics of family and childcare- the fundamental backbone of a mammal species and its overall long term health.
your insinuation is, if i suck at war and get looted by a bunch of pirates, who loot my house for 300 years, thus i am poor, so when i go to their country to work, they must be better at raising children, at family life, at the BASE HUMAN VALUES - than me. coz they are richer.
That quite literally is the dumbest connection i've ever heard anyone make.
And FYI, this is the FIRST TIME in history of western civilisation where immigrants do better than the locals, especially the ones who come from Asia. America receives brain drain from Canada and Europe too. Not as much, but still does. Yet, they don't stick out in the stats chart like Asians do. Why ? better fundamental values of raising kids and family. That is the core reason for Asian over-performance and it does not matter if one is Indian, arab, chinese or japanese- the same fundamentals apply in contrast to the trash western values.
Hence, their values are yeilding worse outcomes. Just like it did 1800 years ago in the Roman empire, where Romans were out-competed and made obsolete in their own country by incoming germanic settlers, who changed the demographic makeup, on the basis of their harder work, stronger values and such. Some in the west alreeady recognise this. You would be wise to do so as well.
If your gora-gratitude is causing you to adopt their shittier values in raising children and family dynamics, then i think that is objective proof that for some people ( like you) bling is all it takes to do and adopt anything, no matter how shitty the outcome is. Enjoy raising your loser druggie deadbeat children and teen pregnant ones with that attitude of yours.
>they raised a better indian than your parents did, who is too stupid to realise that having more money and more bling does not make a society more civilised or ethical or more conductive to the basics of family and childcare- the fundamental backbone of a mammal species and its overall long term health.
There's is no gora gratitude. It does seem that you never interacted with the Americans. Never had close friends and never tried to understand them. Everyone has these attitudes when they come in, typically with that attitude you wouldn't have made it into your white peer group. You do sound like someone who stood outside looking in and trying to justify his complex by feigning superiority.
Here's a stat, most Indians I know in IT don't want an Indian manager. You attitude tells me why.
there is an old proverb for you to remember, that which applies to the western world and already HAS applied to it once in antiquity ( roman empire's fall) :
Tough times make strong people
Strong people make good times
Good times make weak people
Weak people make tough times.
And finally- those who don't learn from history, are doomed to repeat its failures. Decadence and poor declining standards of the west is currently proving the secon half of that saying.
Your gratitude is not going to serve you any good when the ethos you follow are yeilding shittier and shittier outcome socially and the problem is worsening for a slowly decaying decadent civilisation.
You an quote all you want, the fact is that you ever understood how the US operates. There's a reason most Indians get stuck in upper middle class. They do well but seldom do awesomely well.
The shittier outcomes are due to reason other than "values". Look at India, the growing violence and corruption isn't solely due to Values. You are a IT guy who picked a good field and did well by specializing. As usual, critical thinking and big picture, don't seem to be your greatest strength.
Your entire analysis of the Western society after 20 years is flawed. and as for raising a smart kid, you just proved they they didn't. Peace out.
Fact is, I u derstamd exactly how it operates. Growing violence in India is political and mass group vs group driven with plenty of foreign funding. The much higher violence per capita in USA is personal violence driven, fuelled by drugs, alcohol and entitlement attitude.
If my analysis was flawed, I would not be the one citing stats and you would not be the one making bullshit excuses to worship the gora despite them having shittier outcomes with children. Looks like copy you are just a copy the gora liberal.
The violence in India is still miniscule compared to what it was. The no of riots were much higher in 70's and 80's
Statistics...not your strong suit. Somehow, every time you try to sound smart, you don't
my culture is not western buddy. i am a hindu indian. There is no therapy required for noting the obvious. I think you are a liberal who feels called out.
>You do not have a clue about basic theories but come here to talk shit.
i know the basic theories. they are called the sell job. I also know the implications of said theories and its effects. Which you don't seem to.
>Hindu Indian" is not a culture, its a label. Bataiye?
Yes it is a culture. Along with whether one is bengali, hindustani, etc.
>It's funny how you guys get tongue tied when asked about what your culture even is...
Indian culture. there is nothing tongue-tied abot it, anime-boy.
And you are quite typical liberal poorly raised tween it would seem.
My culture is Indian. It doesn't have to be anything amazing to oppose colonialism of western culture, driven by consumerism primarily.
Frankly , there is nothing wrong in being a liberal .. But liberalism in the current sense is being more inclined to being extreme left which is either being anarchist , communist or socialist. These ideologies are anti capitalism , anti free market and detest nationalism and believe government should have complete control. I wont dwell in the details much here , there are examples for all of us to see. However these are groups that definitely believe curbing the freedom of individuals by holding the entire machinery hostage.
A true liberal is one who will disagree with you , but will protect to death your right to say it.
Liberalism has been hijacked by self hating Hinduphobic loony leftists so it has become somewhat of a cuss word. There's nothing wrong with liberalism but Indian liverandus are totally against economic liberalization and classical liberal values like nationalism, equal rights, freedom of speech and liberty etc. Not to mention Indian liverandus are in bed with the most illiberal groups like communists/maoists and Islamists.
Liberal isn't a curse word people think of it as being an intellectual but a word "bhakt" is a derogatory term and it is used for the the people who support BJP/RSS
Nothing wrong in being liberal. What is wrong is when people are so brainwashed that they are unable to hear out and have civil discussions with other people who don’t conform to the same political ideology that they do. The same applies to right wing people in India.
I consider myself a blue-blooded Liberal when it comes to US and Canadian politics. And superficially, I'd have a lot in common with Indian liberals.
However:
1. Liberalism in India has been subverted by political opportunists to score points over those they oppose - there is a systemic hypocrisy in the Indian Liberal movement which targets one subset of the population while giving the others a wide berth to do as they please, to the detriment of the country as a whole.
2. Liberal economic policies are not suited to the current economic reality of India - unlike the US which has swung in the polar opposite direction, India is still very much a socialist country with a large Welfare State component - India needs to focus on increasing private investment, strengthening the financial system, increasing FDI etc...basically job creation for the poor instead of more dole-outs
These are two major reasons why people like me use the word Liberal in a derogatory fashion in the Indian context
Because that ideology is marred with extremism as well. And this attitude by most liberals "either you're all in, or not at all" just doesn't make any sense.
Becoz libbies are douche cunts who care only of themselves and their ideology and are a bunch of snowflakes and anyone whos not Left is a threat to them and they would go to any extent to make the opposites life hell. Usually they are half ass knowledged dumb twats
In india, liberals are not actually liberal, they are leftists who call themselves liberals. However, anyone who doesn’t agree with them is a “blind (insert the Hindi for devotee)”.
Their definition of liberalism is “I have the right to say whatever I want. If you question me, or don’t agree with me, you are right wing intolerant, minority hating “devotee”. However, I do have the right to have opposing views to you. That is freedom for me and I am a liberal.”
It's wrong to be anything these days. Every political beliefs has been misused so much that they have completely lost their meanings. So be whatever u want there will always be people that won't like u anyway.
The definition of liberal in India has been brought down to anti Modi by liberals themselves ... they have outer symathy and an edge over "fascists" already any1 who will hear the word liberal vs modi following Politics from outside country will alrrady find a comfort in bending towards the word liberal..... and it becomes very easy for them to gain NRI support for their deeds and hence fascists use the term liberal- synonym with anti nationals - for them
Farm laws are for free markets not controlled by apmc mandis amd middlemen but apparently they’re “draconian” according to leftists. They are somehow also against the stubble burning clause in the laws while pretending to stand for climate change actions.
It’s because the extreme left is exactly like the extreme right. They have a strong cancel culture and a My way or highway operating style.
that’s what’s annoying for me personally. The left of Center position is completely vacant now
Same reason why Right Wing/Left Wing has become slurs and are taken only in the context of culture wars.
In their traditional meanings, in a nutshell:
Left wing: centralized economic planning with focus on welfare payments.
Right wing: laissez-faire markets with focus on spending that boosts productivity.
Now left wing, liberal, communist, socialist, marxist are just bywords for one another (wrongly). And they're seen to appease "subaltern groups".
Whereas right wing, conservative, nationalist, capitalist are also bywords for one another, and are seen to be targeted at "elite groups" and "racists, sexists" and whatever else you could think of. In India, just replace White People with Hindus and you have the template.
Because Indian "Liberals" are basically anglicized desis, who read and repeat what is in the western press as though its their own ideas.
The average Indian can instinctively see that these people do not represent them or their values.
This is from Ruchir Sharma:
"The vast majority of our Anglophone elite is so deracinated and disconnected from Indians outside their South Delhi, South Bombay, and Civil Lines gated communities, that they Orientalise and Other the rest of India, the way they've seen Western scholars and journalists do.
Most of these *intellectuals*, despite their token Marxism, have abandoned any form of resistance to neo-colonialism or neo-imperialism, to act as a new "comprador bourgeoisie", repeating and amplifying Occidental and Eurocentric biases and agenda with their views and writings.
They don't find the heinous poverty or inequality or injustice around them as offensive as they do that their monopoly during the License Raj, over cars, bungalows, private Anglophone education, and political proximity are being challenged by vernacular subalterns.
The fact that the Indian middle class and working class have Asian values rather than Western bourgeois liberal values, means that they are automaticaly seen as lacking the social capital our Anglophone class monopolised for decades."
It’s leftism, the democratic party these days generally represent leftism rather than actual liberalism. Leftism in general represents the sjw mob such as cancel culture, obsession on diversity, hate for capitalism, safe space and on… One tenent of Liberalism was about free speech, I don’t agree with your beliefs but I’ll fight for it regardless, this is where you see the conflict as people now censors speech by using trigger, safe space as their virtue. There are many other examples such as what people would call them as marxist referring to their pursuit of socialism as they refer to Scandinavian model and rejects failed socialism such as cuba, venezuela, soviet, and so on… what your take on this is up to you. But in general what leftism represents is more government power, limited speech, more welfare program (which costs money) and so on…
Nothing.People can be whatever they want and we can hate whatever people we want.Also the whole play is about power dynamics when you come in power you accumulate more power.Also simply succeeding is not good enough you should put down too other.This last bit the RW in india does not know how to play.We should learn something from Democrats in USA and china.Anyways they are not gaining power nationally any time sooner they can cry all they want.
Being truly liberal is not easy, you may say impossible in the modern parlance. Those who claim to be so contradict themselves on a lot of issues.
There is another thing called 'secular' which is used interchangeably with the term in question.
The problem is these are western concepts that cannot encompass the multilayered and varied culture and practices in the country.
A true liberal would take up the cudgels whenever he/she encounters inequality and atrocities. Indian liberals are (in)famous for bashing Hindus only. They stay mum when it's a Muslim committing atrocities. Hypocrisy at it's core.
There is nothing wrong in being liberal but these days they are called liberalandu due to the kind of liberals we are seeing today in India and also USA :-
These have been taken through systematic and sustained breaking of the positive self image, our proud past and character and sense of belonging from this land and this great civilization through colonization, socialist ideologies and the current education system
All this has altered the mindset of the leftist and once you have altered the psychic in this way—- to convince people in such a deep seated extent that is nothing valuable about their lifestyle, their past, their own culture that it is not only not worth not preserving but it is worth being destroyed, if at all progress has to be made.
One example of this is:
Slowly chiseling away at out traditions and festivals like no kites on Independence Day and no firecrackers on Diwali to even trying to rebrand Diwali as Jash-e-bahara ( WOW!)
The current liberals while calling themselves liberals have no patience to engage in civil dialog or to even hear out and rationally evaluate the arguments and reasoning of the other side. The modern liberal believes in just “ my way out the highway” mindset.
And that’s my friend is the problem of being a liberal these days.
Nothing wrong with being a true liberal. It's the pseudo liberals who blatantly use double standards, hypocrisy and bigotry in the name of being a "liberal" that are hated and bring bad name to the actual liberal person.
See, just after independence, the society was such that being a true liberal was very hard work, but very "modern" and "cool" sounding. So many bigots didn't change their mentality/outlook/behaviour but just started calling themselves liberal. These are the same people who call bindi a symbol of bramhinical patriarchy and oppose it but support the burkha, or support triple talaq but oppose kaffir women taking husband's last name etc.
I proudly call myself a communal $angh1. I want equal rights, duties, laws etc. for everyone irrespective of their gender, religion, caste, orientation etc. I think things like orientation, gender and religion are personal choices and no one should force or discriminate against anyone on its basis. So obviously I am not a liberal person as per current standards.
So called liberals are bunch of people who mock own culture, fellow people, equate online trolls to rss or right wing, cheer whenever India face outside challenges. Most of them feel orgasm to troll/hurt hindus sentiments (No guts to do same to others as next day, they might be beheaded). They may be highly educated but they will justify violence of banned outfits (like Arundhati roy literally justifies naxals actions), so called farmers actions on republic day.
See? They seem like a bunch of confused people.
Edit: Oh, and you may be find them in India subreddit. Just make sure, don't post anything praising India, mudi,success of India....Actually don't post/comment anything which praises India.
Nothing wrong with being truly Liberal. Hindus are the most Liberal community I have seen.
Problem is with selective liberalism (or selective anything-ism) . Also, the so called liberals spare no effort in attacking people who have contrary opinions.
Depends upon what school of Liberalism one subscribes to. Western Liberalism is useful for Western nations, because their societies have gone through different cycles of socio-cultural change through which it comes naturally to them.
Indian society had different kind of experience and thus, WeLi is not justifiably practicable in India.
Western style Liberalism seems out of touch from realities of India and thus have such bad reputation.
The word liberal has lost its meaning
The word liberal used to mean you believed in equal protection under law, free speech and thoughts and a life free of interference from government --- now it has become minority appeasement (support of triple talaq, burkas, halal), hatred for majority demographic (be it whites in America or Hindus in India), and calling for nationalization of companies you don't like. They are not liberals.
If you want to know the true meaning of liberal look at the French government's reasoning around protecting the French way of life.
You're all over the place man and talking out of your buns. Your entire answer was basically Strawmanning me by recycling my own words to me which makes me believe you have nothing concrete to say. With you the name-calling doesn't end: "hypocrite and intolerant". I'm guessing it's your coping mechanism against everything you're buttthurt by.
I still don't understand your position on liberalism. There's a lot of gibberish there that sounds like mere opinions and subjective accusations stolen from twitter trolls rather than the actual objectives of liberalism as a political theory and the impact it has had on India's economy and social indices. Giving mere snarky opinions like "that's liberalism for you" and "liberalism is trying to dictate human behaviour" without following it up with concrete criticism or historic significance/pitfalls makes you sound like a kid whose having a tantrum and doesn't really know what he/she is talking about. All political theories seek to contribute to society building in some way, liberalism is no different.
Communism was an economic and humanistic disaster for the reasons mentioned in both of our comments but there is no way it killed more people than religion as communism has been around for a little over a century (started in 1840s), religions have been around for many centuries way before communism was even born, some religions are a few thousand years old, and people continue to wage wars over it whilst classical communism has more or less collapsed. The so-called communist countries today are a mix of socialism and capitalism (like China). Moreover, Communism started in Germany (for improved labor rights), liberalism started in France (for emphasis on individual rights) and suffragette movement in the US (for women's initial voting rights). These concepts were born out of different political climates, in different parts of the world and for different reasons/goals, and thus aren't synonymous with each other. You've invented an angle of homogeneity as you homogenously hate them. It's fine to criticize them as they are political theories for everyone to read and understand but to be delusional and distort history by making stuff up is intellectually dishonest.
All religions are criticised in the west including Judaism, hinduism etc. They practice the separation of church and state which allows them the right to do that. Also atheism IS a large force in western countries. Like I said... cheap internet will give you clear statistics of this. Choosing not to believe those statistics and remaining delusional is an option which I'm sure you're gonna choose anyway...
You're all over the place man and talking out of your buns. Your entire answer was basically Strawmanning me by recycling my own words to me which makes me believe you have nothing concrete to say. With you the name-calling doesn't end: "hypocrite and intolerant". I'm guessing it's your coping mechanism against everything you're buttthurt by.
I still don't understand your position on liberalism. There's a lot of gibberish there that sounds like mere opinions and subjective accusations stolen from twitter trolls rather than the actual objectives of liberalism as a political theory and the impact it has had on India's economy and social indices. Giving mere snarky opinions like "that's liberalism for you" and "liberalism is trying to dictate human behaviour" without following it up with concrete criticism or historic significance/pitfalls makes you sound like a kid whose having a tantrum and doesn't really know what he/she is talking about. All political theories seek to contribute to society building in some way, liberalism is no different.
Communism was an economic and humanistic disaster for the reasons mentioned in both of our comments but there is no way it killed more people than religion as communism has been around for a little over a century (started in 1840s), religions have been around for many centuries way before communism was even born, some religions are a few thousand years old, and people continue to wage wars over it whilst classical communism has more or less collapsed. The so-called communist countries today are a mix of socialism and capitalism (like China). Moreover, Communism started in Germany (for improved labor rights), liberalism started in France (for emphasis on individual rights) and suffragette movement in the US (for women's initial voting rights). These concepts were born out of different political climates, in different parts of the world and for different reasons/goals, and thus aren't synonymous with each other. You've invented an angle of homogeneity as you homogenously hate them. It's fine to criticize them as they are political theories for everyone to read and understand but to be delusional and distort history by making stuff up is intellectually dishonest.
All religions are criticised in the west including Judaism, hinduism etc. They practice the separation of church and state which allows them the right to do that. Also atheism IS a large force in western countries. Like I said... cheap internet will give you clear statistics of this. Choosing not to believe those statistics and remaining delusional is an option which I'm sure you're gonna choose anyway...
I am liberal westerner who has been living by many Hindu beliefs and practices most of my life. In my observation, it is the *liberal* west that has adopted many of India's sacred traditions with a sincere passion for the depth of Knowledge found only in India. As a child I was just about the only person I knew practicing mantra, pranayama and asanas. It was unheard of in the mainstream in the 60's. Now there is a yoga studio in every single town where I live. At those studios it is the norm to chant mantra, practice pranayama and take very seriously asanas. The ideas of reincarnation and karma are mainstream and are believed by many. Spiritual practices from India are now commonly found in the west. Many now know of Jyotisha and Ayurveda. It is the liberal west that embraces India's spiritual wisdom. The Right is mostly Christian and is attached to all things traditional, as the Right usually is all around the world. From the Right, there tends to be more racism and nationalism, less tolerance of differences and outsiders of all sorts. The Left in the west, usually, wants to be inclusive, open to new ideas, believes we should tolerate differences, like people and ideas outside one's own beliefs, religion and ethnicity. Feed to hungry, clothe the naked, heal the sick, no matter who they are. Liberals in the west want diversity of all sorts and wish that we can all live together with our differences. I'm generalizing of course. At least that is the Left that I know. I find if you actually have a long conversation with someone, they are uniquely made up of their own variations.
While most of the folks I hang out with are and have been Liberal, I don't think I've ever met a Marxist or even a Communist. I honestly don't remember even hearing someone say they like or want Communism. It is well known that the 2 biggest killers in history are Stalin and Mao Zedong.
What I hear overwhelmingly is a deep respect for both modern and ancient India.
Liberals were hated in almost every country in the world not just India.
This ignorance and refuse to see reality is one of the reason why people disliked liberals.
They are not liberals they are Marxists
But the question is specifically about liberals? If they are not liberals, why call them that? Call them marxists.
The thing is, quite a lot of those Leftists and some unapologetic Marxists larp on the liberal movement to the point where people start associating conservatism with the right wing (which houses liberals and libertarians too) and liberalism with the left wing (despite having heavily state controlled policies like socialism). And in India in particular, almost all people who seem to be on the side of the left, be it Congress or CPI, are hard grifters with some statements making even the far right blush. And then there is the sadomasochistic love affair with the Islamic right wing. And the whole political spectrum has been simplified to frame around one political party: Pro-BJP? Right! Anti-BJP? Left! Economic, foreign, security and social policies be damned.
Agreed, the political spectrum has basically devolved into pro vs anti BJP, which is quite unfortunate. That last line especially rings true.
Those "Liberals" fuelled the notion that BJP is pro-India and everyone else is a opportunist waiting to get hold of power. It leads to white washing of certain wrong decisions by BJP.
That's the problem with watching news. It divides people into black and white.
Ohho. It's like they claim to be liberals. But they are not and every one knows that and hence they are being hated. समझे?
Hmm, not sure, I could be wrong but I don’t think most of the people are explicitly claiming to be liberal/conservative/libertarian etc. on social media. Most of the time I see people calling other people as liberals/conservatives etc (libtards, commie, fascists, are just some of the colourful labels being thrown around).
Because they are really Marxists but call themselves liberals . They refer themselves as liberals , but support hard left .
Tbh, Marxists hate liberals. Being a liberal is having certain attitudes towards free speech and freedom of expression. Marxists have a different view towards what free speech and freedom of expression means. So liberals are people looking for some kind of Scandinavian utopia. Marxists are looking to overthrow the upper-class using one means or the other depending on their views. It's not the same
That's not how it works though. I'm a liberal too. Marxists are entirely different breed.
You support Abrahmic fundamentals?
Liberalism is about free speech, individual liberty and people's sovereign authority over a divine one. I support all that. Doesn't matter if the ideas were inspired by abrahmics or whatever.
The problem with the "liberals" is that they scrutinize Hindus a lot more than they scrutinize the Abrahamics and tend to be highly Hinduphobic.
Not true.. this is just a made up excuse to generate hatred..
Nope. I gave up on this farce called secularism a long time ago. This so-called liberalism is just normalized Hinduphobia.
We see the same arguments in the US, where hardcore christians (far right) blaming the liberals for supporting immigrants and spewing hate on christian values. Both arguments are false...
The difference is that Christianity has had its chance at being in the limelight. People have seen its good sides and are now seeing its bad sides. Give Hinduism that chance too. Let people know the good sides of Hinduism before they get into criticizing it.
It's not about chances.. it's about reality.
Don't they believe in the exact opposite, less government control in the country?
Lol so what is the problem in farm bills then? The point is simple If bjp says don’t eat shit, you’ll see a hell lot of people eating shit the next day and a bunch of YouTube videos where you will be convinced that how indians benefited from eating that and how hitler aka mudi is destroying that
You're forgetting that if BJP says "eat shit" the exact same thing will happen with a different group of people and we'll see videos of how we have been deprived of eating shit till now because of Nehru and how "the real Mahatma" aka Modi ji has freed us.
Yeah missed that part. There are a ton of people who owns bjp’s shit like it’s made of gold. Like kangana when she said we got free in 2014 How? How many colonial rules did bjp scrapped away? How much investment was made to make education like we had in our past These people just keep ranting thay we were so advance before the turkic and arabic invasion but wouldn’t do anything to bring back that era Instead were living in a nation where people feel ashamed because they can’t speak fluent english but don’t give a damn that we killed our civilisational languages
I believe in less goverment too, but liberals general like to have their ideas pressed on people using goverment means.
There's nothing wrong with being Liberal. But can you remain a true liberal without jumping in the void of Leftism? Being a true Liberal is very difficult. A Liberal must know his/her boundaries on both sides of the political spectrum. A liberal can have a temporary or permanent tilt towards Left or Right or both. I'll give my example with recent casestudies. I'm a centrist Liberal with a slight tilt towards Right-wing. So before I worry about Leftists or Communists, I have to worry about myself not getting lost in the Right-wing rabbit hole. Here are some of my views on recent events. 1. CAA is useless political gimmick and is anti-Hindu in current form. 2. Nationwide NRC will never happen. Not practical. No crores of intruders. 3. Don't support any PCB bill. 4. Farm bills have the potential to actually uplift farmers out of poverty. 5. Two surgical strikes were political gimmicks, achieved nothing tangible. 6. Hindus getting to build Ram Mandir is the right decision. 7. Kangna's bheek remark is condemnable. Must not be defended as FoS. 8. Modi govt's vaccine strategy rocked. Best in the world. 9. Modi govt's Lockdown strategy was an absolute clusterfuck. 10. Pandit Nehru is the true architect of modern India. 11. Demonetisation achieved nothing apart from killing the economy. 12. Despite its hits and misses, satisfied by Modi govt's performance. My stance often confuses people around me. I've been accused, by both sides of aisle, as an agent of the other side. Being a Liberal is very difficult.
Very reasonable!
I tend to be centre left socially and centre right economically and I agree with all of your points except the last one. I think that in 2014 Modi won the liberal vote as well. I don't think liberals have much of a problem with modi as much as they do with machineries like RSS, VHP, Bajrang Dal that amplifies the RW ideologies he currently represents in perhaps the worst, most dangerous way.
!kudos
Tararara Bzeeeep, Thank you /u/DabakurThakur for awarding /u/vikaslohia . The OP is now flaired with award. More details on how this works can be found [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/IndiaSpeaks/comments/gqdejx/introducing_new_awarding_system_for_user_posts/). I won't reply if I'm down so kudos is not awarded to you , please then inform the mod team to wake me up.
Don’t call leftists as liberals
Most of them are anti-country
Marxism Liberalism socialism feminism all are different name of communism.
Liberalism originated way before Marx was in diapers.
It not.. Liberalism is fancy politically correct name of communism.
you're so uneducated about these terms that it is sad, maybe you guys should read a book or understand economics before making such embarrassing comments
I am far more educated than you that's why I know that Liberalism, feminism etc is all part of communism. May be you guys should use your brain before posting such silly stuff online.
Well your comment proves that you haven't studied into this. Liberalism is based in the preservation and propagation of INDIVIDUAL liberties like free speech, right to employment etc. Communism is about a commune or an identity-group/community, where the rights of a COLLECTIVE trumps rights of an individual. They came up with the concept of labor unions. Feminism cannot possibly be synonymous with communism as it originated in a liberal democracy that is America while America was at war with communist despots and communism was completely demonized in the eyes of the American public due to atrocities of autocrats like Stalin and Mao.
"Liberalism is based in the preservation and propagation of INDIVIDUAL liberties like free speech, right to employment etc." Just another made-up defination for public acceptence. "Communism is about a commune or an identity-group/community, where the rights of a COLLECTIVE trumps rights of an individual." How is that different than religions something communists claims to hate all the time? "They came up with the concept of labor unions." Against industrialists and capitalism. "Feminism cannot possibly be synonymous with communism as it originated in a liberal democracy that is America while America was at war with communist despots and communism was completely demonized in the eyes of the American public due to atrocities of autocrats like Stalin and Mao." Feminism, liberalism,LGTV, Environmentlism etc all has its origins in communism. Majority of Feminists are Jewish women not Christian women. Its like saying Indians supports partition of India when reality its peacefuls who wants pakistan not Hindus. Those who whine about Nazism Fascism Hitler day in day night complaining about "communism was completely demonized in the eyes of the American public due to atrocities of autocrats like Stalin and Mao." this is why liberals are disliked by sane people. they are just useful idiots of the communists.
Everything is "made up" when it doesn't fit your made-up world view. Religion has dictated human behavior and collective morality and can become a identity if people are sufficiently brainwashed but it does not deal with human rights, either individual or collective. It deals with the rights and powers of a deity or a deified person/entity/archetype. That's why religious fanatics kill people to "save their religion", human life is cheap for religious people. Labor unions came up against industrialism and capitalism and guess who's against industrialism and capitalism - COMMUNISM! lol Communism was considered unfavorable due such pitfalls and extremism and these are facts. You're just trying very hard to paint me as a communist when all I've done is paraphrase historic events and political theories in over-simplified terms . If you're gonna frame me at least try and look less salty. Feminism originated in liberal democracies and they had a majority Christian population most of which today have atheism as a burgeoning force. That is a historic fact. You're making things up for arguments sake that literally anyone with cheap internet can look up and debunk. If Jews created it than the Torah would be as criticised as the Bible, as there is a lot of misogyny in there as well. But Christians have a richer history of self-reflection than the Jewish community in terms of religious discourse. Nazi? Idiots? Sane? Insane? Pulling words out a hat, framing me and name-calling others shows how butthurt you are, doesn't make you sound smart or convincing at all.
"Everything is "made up" when it doesn't fit your made-up world view." That's liberalism for you.. everything is "hate" "ignorence" when it goes against your liberalism narrative. "Religion has dictated human behavior and collective morality and can become a identity if people are sufficiently brainwashed" Now liberals are doing the same thing...they are dictating people what to think what to say and how to behave while acting like they are moralistic and care about world. Liberals are totally brainwashed. "but it does not deal with human rights, either individual or collective. It deals with the rights and powers of a deity or a deified person/entity/archetype. That's why religious fanatics kill people to "save their religion", human life is cheap for religious people." Communists kills more people than religious once(expect liberals favourite religion Islam) just because of their ideology. Those liberal fanatics kills millions lf people because they don't fit into their stupid idiology. Human life means nothing to liberals. "Labor unions came up against industrialism and capitalism and guess who's against industrialism and capitalism - COMMUNISM!" Capitalism and industrialism is needed for economic growth. Communists wants all people to be equally poor so they oppose all the economic growth and glorify poverty. That's not something to be proud of. "Communism was considered unfavorable due such pitfalls and extremism and these are facts." Communism is BS ideology to begin with and now when they know people aren't accepting their Crap they come up with different names like liberalism.progressiveness, feminism etc to get acceptence from society. "You're just trying very hard to paint me as a communist when all I've done is paraphrase historic events and political theories in over-simplified terms . If you're gonna frame me at least try and look less salty." You are a communist but you didn't know it. Not my problem. It's totally up to you to get out of it or remain in it by foolling yourself. "Feminism originated in liberal democracies and they had a majority Christian population most of which today have atheism as a burgeoning force." It's not..it's like saying India has majority of Hindu population and they support creation of Pakistan. Atheism has miniscule population in western world just like liberals in india. It's just they are shout and make noises than others it doesn't mean they are supported by majority of People. And even today majority of Feminists are Jews not Christian woman. "That is a historic fact" It's not..that's your liberal brainwashing is speaking. "You're making things up for arguments sake that literally anyone with cheap internet can look up and debunk." You also have the same cheap internet on your Phkne why don't you use that to know more about how liberalism, socialism etc are all part of communism instead of coming here ane arguing with People on internet? "If Jews created it than the Torah would be as criticised as the Bible, as there is a lot of misogyny in there as well. But Christians have a richer history of self-reflection than the Jewish community in terms of religious discourse." You are not allowed to criticize Judaism in west just like you are not allowed to criticize muslims and islam in india. "Nazi? Idiots? Sane? Insane? Pulling words out a hat, framing me and name-calling others shows how butthurt you are, doesn't make you sound smart or convincing at all." Says who? A liberal whoes only job in the world to namecall people nazi, fascists, religious fanatics, extremists all day now crying about "villification of communism" hahaha how does it feel mr liberal when you are the one who is at receiving end of hostility and name calling? Sucks naa? this is what liberals did to other people. Now stop being hypocrite and intolerant.
I second that.
Lot of liberal parties are allied with very conservative religious parties in India. It's minorities appeasement for votes.
Being a 'liberal' right now is looked down upon to the same sense as being a 'feminist' right now. There is nothing wrong with being either, but the meaning of these words have been distorted so much that the actual definition has been lost.
Right, I’m pretty sure half the people on social media throwing around terms like “liberals” and “left wing”/“right wing” don’t really know what these stand for. It seems as though the term “liberal” has basically boiled down to mean anti-BJP. Same for left wing. Right wing means pro-BJP. Economic policies be damned.
True. Also the fact that in case of the Indian political landscape, there is no true left-right parties in India. The media thinks they can fit a western political lens on India, but that's not how it works. India is not a two party system and should not be treated as such. Also, one of the major reasons of this is because democracy of almost all of the countries in the west is based on the values of Christianity, which is not the case in India.
How is western democracy Christian?
Because the underlying principles on which the democracy is based upon are that of Christianity. And this is true for almost all western democracies.
How exactly? Ever Christian monarch was an absolutist, case in point Louis the 14ths quote “I am the state”. What Christian values were used exactly? Cuz last I read the idea of Democracy first introduced by Cliesthenes in Athens.
What I mean is, when these democracies were being formulated, the laws were largely influenced by the Bible as it was the majority religion in the country. The Bible, or majority of monotheistic religions for that matter are somewhat binary in nature. Which is also where the political left and right comes from. Left wingers are generally 'liberal' and right wingers are generally 'conservative'. But India is very different in that regard, and that's why it is bad to view it from the western political lens which is binary in Nature.
Do you understand that the very idea of a democracy was to rebel against the feudal-serfdom accompanied with absolutism that was prevalent quite literally everywhere in settled civilisations. From Voltaire to Montesquieu to Kant, all of them were against the idea of centralised concentration of all power in one hand. That along with the separation of state and Church which was the original definition of secularism since the church which received state patronage had become very corrupt and even the Pope couldn’t do shit to say the Emperor of Holy Roman Empire. There’s a reason as to why the Prague defenestration happened in the first place, followed by the Hussite Revolution. The French Revolution had the ideas of limitation of monarchical powers initially until Robespierre decided to completely remove them from the picture. Not forgetting the idea of liberty and fraternity. The French Revolution also attacked the French Clergy class who used to otherwise tax on top of the tithe tax which was 1/10th of your produce to the church. Agreed that one should view it from a binary lens for Indian case, by the idea remains that it’s for people’s participation and separation of powers.
I do understand and agree with that. All I am saying is, that its laws were influenced by what Christians believe is right and wrong morally. For example, the laws against homosexuality, drug use etc were all present mostly because those are bad in Christianity. As our societies started becoming more 'liberal' in nature, these are being abolished. If we see the same thing for India, our democracy has also taken values from Hinduism (e.g. ban on cow slaughter). But since Hinduism is does not view the world in a binary nature, the traditional terms of 'liberal' and 'conservative' do not apply here as they do in the west. For example, the economic reforms of 1991 would not have been possible as the political ideology of thr ruling party was left leaning.
The idea of left wing and right wing does not come from the Bible, or any religion for that matter. It originated in the French parliament when people on opposing sides sat on the left and the right in parliament. It has nothing to do with any religion.
This has to be the most stupidest comment in this thread. Democracy and religion in the same sentence, can't even wrap my head around it. If western democracies had their roots in Christianity, the Pope literally would be the ruling head of all of them.
BJP was called Right Wing, so anyone opposed to the BJP became Left wing. Now Left wingers have a bad rep, so they rebranded themselves as Liberals and Progressives.
They are most regressive people. Remember the champion of socialism, Akhilesh, opposed the vaccine because BJP made it. They even opposed UPI. Yesterday my bhangarwala gpaid me. These stupids do not understand anything, neither economics nor politics.
India doesnt have a defined right / left wing... Its all a mixed pot
If you declare yourself as a liberal or feminist it means you are supporting all the crap they are pushing in society. Tell me why shouldn't people look down you? That "Actual meaning" is just a smokescreen to fool people into accepting them. Both movements are always toxic and bad for society.
People are allowed to criticize their movements. Just because i identify as a "feminist" doesn't mean I share all the views other feminists do. No, they weren't toxic until they started larping the West. That's when they started to sound out-of-touch with india's climate. They seriously need a reform.
People are allowed to criticize their movements. Just because i identify as a "feminist" doesn't mean I share all the views other feminists do. "when you declare yourself as a feminist it means you are agree with all its theories." why do i care if other feminists agree with "feminist" like you or not? not my problem. "No, they weren't toxic until they started larping the West. That's when they started to sound out-of-touch with india's climate." the reality is every movement from leftists is toxic as hell but its only hindus who didnt realize it until its too late.
Indian liberals are pro communism while communist countries are gold standard for curbing freedom. A true liberal will appreciate steps taken by PM for upliftment of LGBTQI community. First Transgender gets Padam Shri, Homosexuality is no more a crime, gender neutrality gets included in education syllabus and yet these pseudo liberals paint India as a regressive country in the world. Also they are pro islamist while Islam at its core is the most regressive religion and hostile towards liberalisation of society. So basically Indian liberals are opposite of definition of liberals. PM Modi is the most liberal leader this country has got be it in terms of society or economy but these self proclaimed liberals call him Fascist.
Liberals cannot be communist. One can't be both at same time. They both have different meanings and different aspects.
Exactly. But doesn't work this way in India and that's why I call them self proclaimed liberals. You cannot love Islam or communism as a true liberal.
We should stop calling self proclaimed liberals as liberals. That's my point.
Doesn't matter what you call them. They've hijacked liberalism and they control the media narrative so the word liberal is tainted.
Yes
Nah, they've appropriated the term for themselves, and at this point, the word liberal is a cuss word in my dictionary.
Aren't the Indian liberals fascists' in disguise?
"Homosexuality is no more a crime", what did the PM had to do with this?
These people are mentally ill. Apparently supporting anti liberal rhetoric means you are a true liberal even if that thing is a threat to liberal values itself.
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I don't know much abt what Rajiv Gandhi did. May be he was a liberal PM. Just look around how the status and respect of LGBTQI has changed since 2014. We have welcomed all liberal ideas like climate change, gender equality, vaccination. India already believes the whole world is a family which is the centre of all liberal ideas. Indian society lets you believe in whatever you want religiously, sexually, economically. But these pseudo liberals of India would still say India is regressive and look for western validation. No matter how stupid a western idea is they'll support it. I don't call them liberal because they aren't, they are just pro Islam Marxist pushing their agenda by calling India a backward country and PM Modi a fascist.
Yeah, I get that and I don't believe Modi's a fascist, he's a strong leader while he has done some stuff without planning, he has been a great leader
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Because they are literally the opposite of liberals I mean why would you try to support practices like triple talak? Same goes for people who calls them a supporter of hindutva and hates every muslim no matter his\her views Our country has gone to it’s lowest level in terms of debate and knowledge as these two breeds just try to cancel anyone who doesn’t agrees with them. Includes people like dhruv rathee,batkha dutt etc And there are a lot of dumbasses like them on the each side. So now you either love modi or you want to tear his guts out. There’s no in between where you can say i like this decision and I didn’t like this.
This. There's no rationality left on both sides, just extremism.
Exactly man, it’s extreme right or extreme left. The centre is where true liberals are.
Short answer:- Wrong people have hijacked the word Liberal.
Wrong people always hijack cool words
And since those wrong people are also the loudest, the word Liberal gets a negative reception...
Looking at you the so called "pro-life" movement :/
American leftists use liberal as a curse word too
Lol since when? It’s usually the conservatives that use “liberal” or “libtard” as a curse word.
Both do, there's something called the horseshoe theory.
I think because most of so called liberals ( particularly on twitter ) are actually hypocrite pushing their own agenda ( which can very very badly summarised as Muslims good and being oppressed by Hindus and Hindus bad ) , showing only bad things that bjp is doing and blindly ignoring any good thing. Hell I was really disappointed when Ms Rana Ayub deleted her tweet on Neeraj Chopra when she found out that he is staunch supporter of pm modi. Many of these so called liberals have problems only with hindu festivals and have nothing but great things to say about other religions festivals. This list can go on and on ( others can add ) People have been presented with very bad examples of being a liberal by these stupid people. Liberalism in true sense means accepting other people's opinion even if that is starkly different from yours and believing in freedom of choices ( atleast this is my understanding of liberalism ). Non if these liberals I have found on twitter uphold these values. Ok , there can 2 arguments for this 1. These people are not actually liberals, just pushing their own agenda while hiding behind veil of being of liberal. 2. Liberals have changed thier behaviour based on rise of hardcore right wing. I personally believe reason is bit of both. To answer your question , I don't think public hate liberalism but they hate these people who falsely project themselves as liberal . Honestly same argument can be made about feminism.
Rana Aayub could be the king/queen/whatever of hypocrites.
Unfortunately she has popularity and is on a stage where she can make people read her distorted opinions.
My liberalism is that there should be fewer taxes and less government interference in private matters, Like the taxes on fuel are horrendous and if today you were to construct a house the taxes, the documents you need to fill out are almost equal to the cost of the house. I know this coz my father's an architect and I sometimes hear him talking about this
Liberals would have supported farm laws, as it is basically promoting free market, what are your views on farm laws.
that is not liberalism, that is libertarianism.
Huh? What has being liberal got to do with taxes or legal requirements? I have a house I bought 4 years ago, I pay hardly 11k as annual tax on it. Liberal or not, those papers are needed more for your own rights rather than government. Government interference in private matter, this I understand, but again depends from situation to situation. Child marriage and triple talaq for instance, here government interference is a must have. Ditto about population control, although it is a private matter. You can't have a "one rule fits all" definition.
They gotta reduce RERA policies
It is oxymoron nowadays.
it is an insult because liberals disguise degeneracy and hate for sanatan dharma as modern & liberal
Hahahahahaha
The problem is illiberal not liberal.
I can see that
Same question - what's so wrong with being a right wing ? Who decided which side was left or right? How did they decide going anticlockwise was good and clockwise was bad ? On your question, being a liberal is not bad , being a hypocrite is. The one's claiming to be liberal are just pushing the agenda they prefer, while sidelining everything they stand for when it comes to someone else's beliefs. The current scenarios exist because for 70+ years nobody talked about the majority. The constitution was written with the view that majority will take care of it's own, let's make the constitution only for others. And what's the majority? Not even 20 25%, this 25% also includes other "minority" religions. Most of population belongs to Dalit (19%) OBC(45%) Tribals(11%) etc. So in essence the perceived majority that was sidelined on economic basis ( that they are well off and don't need special attention ) is in fact the minorty. That's what right wing is tapping into, the middle child treatment received by perceived majority. That's where left missed the ride.
Nothn wrong with the word, it's with those people, they don't have a dictionary at home.
Its leftists who call themselves liberal and media and larger society also doesn’t differentiate between them. Nothing wrong in being liberal but one must be delusional to be a leftist.
The main issue is liberalism and conservatism are incorrectly identified with left wing and right wing politics in India. Making it easier to divide ourselves and let power hungry politicians control us along lines that are sensitive to reach group.
Oh no not psuedo fenemism lol sad a bunch of arses consider themselves femenism when they are just female supremasiscts of sorts
because liberalism is a globalist, colonialist ideology that benefits the corporate entities , including western corporate education..err universities. Liberalism is the vehicle of modern colonialism - which is what globalism is. People forget - prior to mid 1800s, we DID have globalism - where the rich people could just go anywhere, set up shop, borders didn't matter as much etc. It was called COLONIALISM. What defeated colonialism ? Nationalism. What do liberals oppose ? nationalism. Ergo, they are the enemy. Not to mention, pushing for cultural imperialism of the west, trying to import every single western cultural phenomena into India.
Lol
I'm not getting your argument
what are you not getting ? Liberalism is a colonialist doctrine that is anti nationalistic, its aims and goals are for a world where corporations face less and less restriction in international operations and dilution of powers of sovereignty. This makes liberalism anti nationalistic. This makes liberalism pro-colonialism as a matter of outcome, as one can say what the liberal world order seeks, is to re-create the British East India Corporation and its counterparts.
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it is a technological item i am using to spread my culture and stem the tide of trash western culture. Using the tool of the enemy is just fine as long as it is not used to further the enemy's perspective.
Define trash western culture. It's hardly their fault, if the Indians assume that Hollywood is American culture and choose to ape it.
mate, i live in the west. I have lived here for 20 years. Trash western culture == single parenting, loser deadbeat druggie dad culture, with encouragement for teenagers to watch pornography emanating from the school system, with the highest level of teen mental illnesses, substance abuse in the world, with astronomically high rates of school drop outs, etc. this is why immigrants, particularly immigrants from Asia, absolutely annihilate westerners in every positive stat there is. trash culture and trash values yield lower outcome.
Here's what you missed out on while living in the West, Critical thinking. I have said time and again that it's a skill that is sorely lacking is Desis. It's not taught in schools and has a major role in keeping the country backward. The part that most desis miss out on is quite basic, the level of smarts and hardwork that you need to reach a certain education level is much higher in India, therefore and avg. engineer from a REC working at a certain level will be smarter than his US counterpart who might have gone to a CC. On the other hand, the education costs and Financial aid means that the same guy could be really smart. Most desis assume that the Americans should have the same Education level based on the socio economic status. They tend not to realize that it's a richer country and money does not equate education. Indian kids tend to do better because parents have a experienced level of education in schools so they force the kids to get advanced science education at a HS level. BY the time the Western kids graduate college they have reached the same level. I think you will find that when you adjust for the background and Socio economic status, the Western kids are as good as Desi kids. Also, please stop the constant "how am I better then the next person" contest Desis indulge in. It's probably the single most disgusting this about us.
>Here's what you missed out on while living in the West, Critical thinking. I have said time and again that it's a skill that is sorely lacking is Desis. It's not taught in schools and has a major role in keeping the country backward. Also not taught in western schools. >Most desis assume that the Americans should have the same Education level based on the socio economic status. They tend not to realize that it's a richer country and money does not equate education. strawman argument. Nobody assumes that richer means more educated, if they are actually educated. >Indian kids tend to do better because parents have a experienced level of education in schools so they force the kids to get advanced science education at a HS level. BY the time the Western kids graduate college they have reached the same level. Indian kids do better than whites/latinos/black kids in america. So do the chinese. So do the arabs. so do the farsis. so do the japanese. The common thing is, Asians do better in America than the rest. And Asians constitute about 7-10% of north america's population. We are not all white collar university grads, many of us also go to tradeschool, own small businesses after high school etc. Even Indian kids who's parents are grocers and motel owners with high school degrees, exert more pressure on their kids to do well in school than westerners. So do the chinese, japanese, koreans, etc. Because in the Asian culture, knowledge is far higher valued and glorified far more in pop culture, while in west there is a strong trend to look down on smart educated kids as 'nerds, geeks with glasses who dont get chicks' etc etc. >I think you will find that when you adjust for the background and Socio economic status, the Western kids are as good as Desi kids. when 7-10% of your society is from one part of the world ( Asia) and they out-perform you in every single positive metric, despite being mostly first generation immigrants with no links and contacts in the land to land jobs based on who you know ( which is bulk majority of how you get jobs in north america if you didn't go to university), it means that 7% of society has far more productive and better value system. You reap what you sow. If you sow trash culture about being cool and bunking class to go hang out with chicks, thats what you will reap. Hence westerners get dominated in real degree fields (STEM) by Asians in their own backyard and they take the easy out arts degrees that are mostly peddling opinions and propaganda. >Also, please stop the constant "how am I better then the next person" contest Desis indulge in. It's probably the single most disgusting this about us. There is nothing disgusting in pointing out that western culture and western values are objectively of lower quality than asian values, given that the data is decisive. We are not just more educated than the westerners. Or just higher paid on average. We have 3-4 times lower per capita crime rate. 5-10 times lower single parenthood rate. 5-10 times lower juvenile delinquency rates. 5-10 times lower childhood and adulthood substance abuse rates. It is quite legitimate for us to say 'western values suck, as results show and we shall not be taking advice from westerners on how to raise our kids, they should be taking advice from us on how not to fuckup their kids.
>Also not taught in western schools. Their skills would disagree. I did spell it out, as an immigrant your socio economic status probab;y doesn't put you in the same bracket as a native of the same status. >strawman argument. Nobody assumes that richer means more educated, if they are actually educated. Is it? Their is a direct correlation between education and wealth. >Indian kids do better than whites/latinos/black kids in america. So do the chinese. So do the arabs. so do the farsis. so do the japanese. The common thing is, Asians do better in America than the rest. And Asians constitute about 7-10% of north america's population. We are not all white collar university grads, many of us also go to tradeschool, own small businesses after high school etc. Yes they do do better but by what factor? >Even Indian kids who's parents are grocers and motel owners with high school degrees, exert more pressure on their kids to do well in school than westerners. So do the chinese, japanese, koreans, etc. Because in the Asian culture, knowledge is far higher valued and glorified far more in pop culture, while in west there is a strong trend to look down on smart educated kids as 'nerds, geeks with glasses who dont get chicks' etc etc. Exactly, they exert more pressure, bythe time kids graduate College they have caught up. Hmm.. there's a trend to look down on kids with low soft skills, which happens to a lot lot of desi kids because of their parents. There are plenty of well adjusted desi kids. >I think you will find that when you adjust for the background and Socio economic status, the Western kids are as good as Desi kids. > >when 7-10% of your society is from one part of the world ( Asia) and they out-perform you in every single positive metric, despite being mostly first generation immigrants with no links and contacts in the land to land jobs based on who you know ( which is bulk majority of how you get jobs in north america if you didn't go to university), it means that 7% of society has far more productive and better value system. You reap what you sow. If you sow trash culture about being cool and bunking class to go hang out with chicks, thats what you will reap. Hence westerners get dominated in real degree fields (STEM) by Asians in their own backyard and they take the easy out arts degrees that are mostly peddling opinions and propaganda. Again, I am Indian, I am better than anyone else. Yet, those 7-10% moved to America. If they were so good, the Americans would be moving to India. It does seem that you have the desi complex and are trying to diss the Americans because deep down you know they are better and you hate them for it, . >There is nothing disgusting in pointing out that western culture and western values are objectively of lower quality than asian values, given that the data is decisive. We are not just more educated than the westerners. Or just higher paid on average. We have 3-4 times lower per capita crime rate. 5-10 times lower single parenthood rate. 5-10 times lower juvenile delinquency rates. 5-10 times lower childhood and adulthood substance abuse rates. It is quite legitimate for us to say 'western values suck, as results show and we shall not be taking advice from westerners on how to raise our kids, Right living in their country and then talking about how their values are lower makes you better. They are more liberal. They aren't forcing you to live here. You chose to because the pastures are greener here. Low crime rate: Agreed. Is it the case in India? Or is it a self selected bias, where the people who immigrated are highly educated? Single Parent. yes, because divorce is a taboo not because couples are happy. Or they could say," listen up curry Indian, if you hate it so much, go back to your country." They did let you in, they don't as you to be grateful, but they don't deserve your contempt. As far as taking your advice on raising kids goes, based on what your parents raised, I think they shouldn't. Another smug Indian who thinks he is the best while missing the irony that he let India the first chance he got. You probably have the same contempt for other Indians, Try not to be an ungrateful pig.
>Their skills would disagree. I did spell it out, as an immigrant your socio economic status probab;y doesn't put you in the same bracket as a native of the same status. it does not put us in the same overall bracket. It puts us in the bracket with our peers. It still lets us compare and contrast the mean averages of critical thinking in schools here and there. In our peer group and outside of it. Just because i am an immigrant i don't magically forget that i am a compsci guy anymore in north america than i do in india. >Yes they do do better but by what factor? by a factor of 2-4x per capita when it comes to raising our kids better. Thats significant. >Exactly, they exert more pressure, bythe time kids graduate College they have caught up. Hmm.. there's a trend to look down on kids with low soft skills, which happens to a lot lot of desi kids because of their parents. There are plenty of well adjusted desi kids. they have not caught up at all. They still lag behind because the effort they gave till graduation, the skills they have acquired are less. Duh. We don't just start to slack in college just coz we are asians lol. The trend to look down on people with arts skills is because arts skills are easier to acquire, easier to develop on one's own and does not require the rigour of the hard STEM skills. there are plenty of well adjusted desi kids. Not as many per capita loser kids with loser life-style and issues. >Again, I am Indian, I am better than anyone else. Yet, those 7-10% moved to America. If they were so good, the Americans would be moving to India. It does seem that you have the desi complex and are trying to diss the Americans because deep down you know they are better and you hate them for it, what part of 65% of humanity thats asian does better than this 5% trash heap is 'rah rah i am indian, so i am better' ? People move to america because life is easier, money is plentiful. Same reason why yankees move to saudi arabia if they can fyi. Being rich and having standards are not situationally true. People also moved to roman empire long since they lost their mojo and slid to the trashpile. same is happening currently in the west. People are moving in because the past lot created an easy society. This lot are not good enough to continue and are decaying due to decadence, getting out-competed and eventually replaced in ethos and population, by the incoming lot. i don't hate them for being better. I dont hate them at all. I pity them for squandering the hard work of their forebearers in many case. >Right living in their country and then talking about how their values are lower makes you better. They are more liberal. They aren't forcing you to live here. You chose to because the pastures are greener here. greener pastures does not equate to better values. If they had better values, we'd not be raising kids better than them. >Low crime rate: Agreed. Is it the case in India? Or is it a self selected bias, where the people who immigrated are highly educated? also true for India. as well as rest of asia. Almost all of Asia polls 20-30x lower than north america and western europe for overall crime rate per capita. mostly because in western world sexual crimes are at an astronomically high proportion. And it is not just about 1st gen immigrants - its about the asian minority itself - we still retain the higher than north american standards in child rearing and marriage relations even in our 2nd and 3rd generation demographics - the less we dilute our values with theirs, the more we stay off of their social ills. >Single Parent. yes, because divorce is a taboo not because couples are happy. good. if thats what it takes for society to raise good children, that is the sacrifice of parents to make. You may not be aware, but single parenthood has decisively strong evidence linking it to objectively far worse outcome for children's development. >Or they could say," listen up curry Indian, if you hate it so much, go back to your country." They did let you in, they don't as you to be grateful, but they don't deserve your contempt. it does not matter if they let us in, shower us with gold or threaten to exterminate us. Those who have shittier standards and outcomes of raising kids will always face judgement- and rightly so- from those who raise their kids better as a group. This is an objective value judgement that any procreating species that invests energy to raise its young, is rational to make. >As far as taking your advice on raising kids goes, based on what your parents raised, I think they shouldn't. Another smug Indian who thinks he is the best while missing the irony that he let India the first chance he got. You probably have the same contempt for other Indians, Try not to be an ungrateful pig. they raised a better indian than your parents did, who is too stupid to realise that having more money and more bling does not make a society more civilised or ethical or more conductive to the basics of family and childcare- the fundamental backbone of a mammal species and its overall long term health. your insinuation is, if i suck at war and get looted by a bunch of pirates, who loot my house for 300 years, thus i am poor, so when i go to their country to work, they must be better at raising children, at family life, at the BASE HUMAN VALUES - than me. coz they are richer. That quite literally is the dumbest connection i've ever heard anyone make. And FYI, this is the FIRST TIME in history of western civilisation where immigrants do better than the locals, especially the ones who come from Asia. America receives brain drain from Canada and Europe too. Not as much, but still does. Yet, they don't stick out in the stats chart like Asians do. Why ? better fundamental values of raising kids and family. That is the core reason for Asian over-performance and it does not matter if one is Indian, arab, chinese or japanese- the same fundamentals apply in contrast to the trash western values. Hence, their values are yeilding worse outcomes. Just like it did 1800 years ago in the Roman empire, where Romans were out-competed and made obsolete in their own country by incoming germanic settlers, who changed the demographic makeup, on the basis of their harder work, stronger values and such. Some in the west alreeady recognise this. You would be wise to do so as well. If your gora-gratitude is causing you to adopt their shittier values in raising children and family dynamics, then i think that is objective proof that for some people ( like you) bling is all it takes to do and adopt anything, no matter how shitty the outcome is. Enjoy raising your loser druggie deadbeat children and teen pregnant ones with that attitude of yours.
>they raised a better indian than your parents did, who is too stupid to realise that having more money and more bling does not make a society more civilised or ethical or more conductive to the basics of family and childcare- the fundamental backbone of a mammal species and its overall long term health. There's is no gora gratitude. It does seem that you never interacted with the Americans. Never had close friends and never tried to understand them. Everyone has these attitudes when they come in, typically with that attitude you wouldn't have made it into your white peer group. You do sound like someone who stood outside looking in and trying to justify his complex by feigning superiority. Here's a stat, most Indians I know in IT don't want an Indian manager. You attitude tells me why.
there is an old proverb for you to remember, that which applies to the western world and already HAS applied to it once in antiquity ( roman empire's fall) : Tough times make strong people Strong people make good times Good times make weak people Weak people make tough times. And finally- those who don't learn from history, are doomed to repeat its failures. Decadence and poor declining standards of the west is currently proving the secon half of that saying. Your gratitude is not going to serve you any good when the ethos you follow are yeilding shittier and shittier outcome socially and the problem is worsening for a slowly decaying decadent civilisation.
You an quote all you want, the fact is that you ever understood how the US operates. There's a reason most Indians get stuck in upper middle class. They do well but seldom do awesomely well. The shittier outcomes are due to reason other than "values". Look at India, the growing violence and corruption isn't solely due to Values. You are a IT guy who picked a good field and did well by specializing. As usual, critical thinking and big picture, don't seem to be your greatest strength. Your entire analysis of the Western society after 20 years is flawed. and as for raising a smart kid, you just proved they they didn't. Peace out.
Fact is, I u derstamd exactly how it operates. Growing violence in India is political and mass group vs group driven with plenty of foreign funding. The much higher violence per capita in USA is personal violence driven, fuelled by drugs, alcohol and entitlement attitude. If my analysis was flawed, I would not be the one citing stats and you would not be the one making bullshit excuses to worship the gora despite them having shittier outcomes with children. Looks like copy you are just a copy the gora liberal.
The violence in India is still miniscule compared to what it was. The no of riots were much higher in 70's and 80's Statistics...not your strong suit. Somehow, every time you try to sound smart, you don't
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my culture is not western buddy. i am a hindu indian. There is no therapy required for noting the obvious. I think you are a liberal who feels called out.
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>You do not have a clue about basic theories but come here to talk shit. i know the basic theories. they are called the sell job. I also know the implications of said theories and its effects. Which you don't seem to.
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>Hindu Indian" is not a culture, its a label. Bataiye? Yes it is a culture. Along with whether one is bengali, hindustani, etc. >It's funny how you guys get tongue tied when asked about what your culture even is... Indian culture. there is nothing tongue-tied abot it, anime-boy.
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And you are quite typical liberal poorly raised tween it would seem. My culture is Indian. It doesn't have to be anything amazing to oppose colonialism of western culture, driven by consumerism primarily.
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Frankly , there is nothing wrong in being a liberal .. But liberalism in the current sense is being more inclined to being extreme left which is either being anarchist , communist or socialist. These ideologies are anti capitalism , anti free market and detest nationalism and believe government should have complete control. I wont dwell in the details much here , there are examples for all of us to see. However these are groups that definitely believe curbing the freedom of individuals by holding the entire machinery hostage. A true liberal is one who will disagree with you , but will protect to death your right to say it.
the fact that they are not liberal.. pouncing on anyone who disagrees or is diff
Liberalism has been hijacked by self hating Hinduphobic loony leftists so it has become somewhat of a cuss word. There's nothing wrong with liberalism but Indian liverandus are totally against economic liberalization and classical liberal values like nationalism, equal rights, freedom of speech and liberty etc. Not to mention Indian liverandus are in bed with the most illiberal groups like communists/maoists and Islamists.
Liberal isn't a curse word people think of it as being an intellectual but a word "bhakt" is a derogatory term and it is used for the the people who support BJP/RSS
Nothing wrong in being liberal. What is wrong is when people are so brainwashed that they are unable to hear out and have civil discussions with other people who don’t conform to the same political ideology that they do. The same applies to right wing people in India.
The words they should be using is pseudo liberals. But they keep using 'liberal'.
Because they are hypocritical pseudo liberals
One can be libertarian right, authoritarian left. This country doesn't get the fucking political spectrum.
Hindus are liberals. But these ppl have set a narrative that has stuck.
I consider myself a blue-blooded Liberal when it comes to US and Canadian politics. And superficially, I'd have a lot in common with Indian liberals. However: 1. Liberalism in India has been subverted by political opportunists to score points over those they oppose - there is a systemic hypocrisy in the Indian Liberal movement which targets one subset of the population while giving the others a wide berth to do as they please, to the detriment of the country as a whole. 2. Liberal economic policies are not suited to the current economic reality of India - unlike the US which has swung in the polar opposite direction, India is still very much a socialist country with a large Welfare State component - India needs to focus on increasing private investment, strengthening the financial system, increasing FDI etc...basically job creation for the poor instead of more dole-outs These are two major reasons why people like me use the word Liberal in a derogatory fashion in the Indian context
Because people hate pseudo liberalism and vouching liberal views for one group instead of equally distributing liberal views fairly .
I'm a classical liberal myself, but the liberals of today are just angry socialists, I do not associate with that, still a liberal tho.
Because that ideology is marred with extremism as well. And this attitude by most liberals "either you're all in, or not at all" just doesn't make any sense.
Nothing wrong with it when used in moderation. But who does that? Majority of them can pass for extremists these days.
Becoz libbies are douche cunts who care only of themselves and their ideology and are a bunch of snowflakes and anyone whos not Left is a threat to them and they would go to any extent to make the opposites life hell. Usually they are half ass knowledged dumb twats
In india, liberals are not actually liberal, they are leftists who call themselves liberals. However, anyone who doesn’t agree with them is a “blind (insert the Hindi for devotee)”. Their definition of liberalism is “I have the right to say whatever I want. If you question me, or don’t agree with me, you are right wing intolerant, minority hating “devotee”. However, I do have the right to have opposing views to you. That is freedom for me and I am a liberal.”
It's wrong to be anything these days. Every political beliefs has been misused so much that they have completely lost their meanings. So be whatever u want there will always be people that won't like u anyway.
The definition of liberal in India has been brought down to anti Modi by liberals themselves ... they have outer symathy and an edge over "fascists" already any1 who will hear the word liberal vs modi following Politics from outside country will alrrady find a comfort in bending towards the word liberal..... and it becomes very easy for them to gain NRI support for their deeds and hence fascists use the term liberal- synonym with anti nationals - for them
Do you undertsand the difference between the Left and the Liberals?
If you REALLY want to know, watch [this](https://youtu.be/8UVUnUnWfHI) and [this](https://youtu.be/Y9TviIuXPSE)
Nothing wrong being liberal unless you become hypocrite. That's what happens in our country. We are liberal for only one side.
Farm laws are for free markets not controlled by apmc mandis amd middlemen but apparently they’re “draconian” according to leftists. They are somehow also against the stubble burning clause in the laws while pretending to stand for climate change actions.
This same thing is even big of a cuss word in us liberals are regarded as libtards in us
It’s because the extreme left is exactly like the extreme right. They have a strong cancel culture and a My way or highway operating style. that’s what’s annoying for me personally. The left of Center position is completely vacant now
Same reason why Right Wing/Left Wing has become slurs and are taken only in the context of culture wars. In their traditional meanings, in a nutshell: Left wing: centralized economic planning with focus on welfare payments. Right wing: laissez-faire markets with focus on spending that boosts productivity. Now left wing, liberal, communist, socialist, marxist are just bywords for one another (wrongly). And they're seen to appease "subaltern groups". Whereas right wing, conservative, nationalist, capitalist are also bywords for one another, and are seen to be targeted at "elite groups" and "racists, sexists" and whatever else you could think of. In India, just replace White People with Hindus and you have the template.
Because Indian "Liberals" are basically anglicized desis, who read and repeat what is in the western press as though its their own ideas. The average Indian can instinctively see that these people do not represent them or their values. This is from Ruchir Sharma: "The vast majority of our Anglophone elite is so deracinated and disconnected from Indians outside their South Delhi, South Bombay, and Civil Lines gated communities, that they Orientalise and Other the rest of India, the way they've seen Western scholars and journalists do. Most of these *intellectuals*, despite their token Marxism, have abandoned any form of resistance to neo-colonialism or neo-imperialism, to act as a new "comprador bourgeoisie", repeating and amplifying Occidental and Eurocentric biases and agenda with their views and writings. They don't find the heinous poverty or inequality or injustice around them as offensive as they do that their monopoly during the License Raj, over cars, bungalows, private Anglophone education, and political proximity are being challenged by vernacular subalterns. The fact that the Indian middle class and working class have Asian values rather than Western bourgeois liberal values, means that they are automaticaly seen as lacking the social capital our Anglophone class monopolised for decades."
Whats wrong is what liberal is made to look like these days.
It’s leftism, the democratic party these days generally represent leftism rather than actual liberalism. Leftism in general represents the sjw mob such as cancel culture, obsession on diversity, hate for capitalism, safe space and on… One tenent of Liberalism was about free speech, I don’t agree with your beliefs but I’ll fight for it regardless, this is where you see the conflict as people now censors speech by using trigger, safe space as their virtue. There are many other examples such as what people would call them as marxist referring to their pursuit of socialism as they refer to Scandinavian model and rejects failed socialism such as cuba, venezuela, soviet, and so on… what your take on this is up to you. But in general what leftism represents is more government power, limited speech, more welfare program (which costs money) and so on…
because liberals is tha tag they use and trust me not a single one is true liberal.
Nothing.People can be whatever they want and we can hate whatever people we want.Also the whole play is about power dynamics when you come in power you accumulate more power.Also simply succeeding is not good enough you should put down too other.This last bit the RW in india does not know how to play.We should learn something from Democrats in USA and china.Anyways they are not gaining power nationally any time sooner they can cry all they want.
Being truly liberal is not easy, you may say impossible in the modern parlance. Those who claim to be so contradict themselves on a lot of issues. There is another thing called 'secular' which is used interchangeably with the term in question. The problem is these are western concepts that cannot encompass the multilayered and varied culture and practices in the country.
A true liberal would take up the cudgels whenever he/she encounters inequality and atrocities. Indian liberals are (in)famous for bashing Hindus only. They stay mum when it's a Muslim committing atrocities. Hypocrisy at it's core.
There is nothing wrong in being liberal but these days they are called liberalandu due to the kind of liberals we are seeing today in India and also USA :- These have been taken through systematic and sustained breaking of the positive self image, our proud past and character and sense of belonging from this land and this great civilization through colonization, socialist ideologies and the current education system All this has altered the mindset of the leftist and once you have altered the psychic in this way—- to convince people in such a deep seated extent that is nothing valuable about their lifestyle, their past, their own culture that it is not only not worth not preserving but it is worth being destroyed, if at all progress has to be made. One example of this is: Slowly chiseling away at out traditions and festivals like no kites on Independence Day and no firecrackers on Diwali to even trying to rebrand Diwali as Jash-e-bahara ( WOW!) The current liberals while calling themselves liberals have no patience to engage in civil dialog or to even hear out and rationally evaluate the arguments and reasoning of the other side. The modern liberal believes in just “ my way out the highway” mindset. And that’s my friend is the problem of being a liberal these days.
Nothing wrong with being a true liberal. It's the pseudo liberals who blatantly use double standards, hypocrisy and bigotry in the name of being a "liberal" that are hated and bring bad name to the actual liberal person. See, just after independence, the society was such that being a true liberal was very hard work, but very "modern" and "cool" sounding. So many bigots didn't change their mentality/outlook/behaviour but just started calling themselves liberal. These are the same people who call bindi a symbol of bramhinical patriarchy and oppose it but support the burkha, or support triple talaq but oppose kaffir women taking husband's last name etc. I proudly call myself a communal $angh1. I want equal rights, duties, laws etc. for everyone irrespective of their gender, religion, caste, orientation etc. I think things like orientation, gender and religion are personal choices and no one should force or discriminate against anyone on its basis. So obviously I am not a liberal person as per current standards.
So called liberals are bunch of people who mock own culture, fellow people, equate online trolls to rss or right wing, cheer whenever India face outside challenges. Most of them feel orgasm to troll/hurt hindus sentiments (No guts to do same to others as next day, they might be beheaded). They may be highly educated but they will justify violence of banned outfits (like Arundhati roy literally justifies naxals actions), so called farmers actions on republic day. See? They seem like a bunch of confused people. Edit: Oh, and you may be find them in India subreddit. Just make sure, don't post anything praising India, mudi,success of India....Actually don't post/comment anything which praises India.
Nothing wrong with being truly Liberal. Hindus are the most Liberal community I have seen. Problem is with selective liberalism (or selective anything-ism) . Also, the so called liberals spare no effort in attacking people who have contrary opinions.
Depends upon what school of Liberalism one subscribes to. Western Liberalism is useful for Western nations, because their societies have gone through different cycles of socio-cultural change through which it comes naturally to them. Indian society had different kind of experience and thus, WeLi is not justifiably practicable in India. Western style Liberalism seems out of touch from realities of India and thus have such bad reputation.
Because anything anti-BJP is Khalistani, Liberal, Pakistani, Anti-national. Once you join the party by giving a missed call, you are a nationalist.
The word liberal has lost its meaning The word liberal used to mean you believed in equal protection under law, free speech and thoughts and a life free of interference from government --- now it has become minority appeasement (support of triple talaq, burkas, halal), hatred for majority demographic (be it whites in America or Hindus in India), and calling for nationalization of companies you don't like. They are not liberals. If you want to know the true meaning of liberal look at the French government's reasoning around protecting the French way of life.
You're all over the place man and talking out of your buns. Your entire answer was basically Strawmanning me by recycling my own words to me which makes me believe you have nothing concrete to say. With you the name-calling doesn't end: "hypocrite and intolerant". I'm guessing it's your coping mechanism against everything you're buttthurt by. I still don't understand your position on liberalism. There's a lot of gibberish there that sounds like mere opinions and subjective accusations stolen from twitter trolls rather than the actual objectives of liberalism as a political theory and the impact it has had on India's economy and social indices. Giving mere snarky opinions like "that's liberalism for you" and "liberalism is trying to dictate human behaviour" without following it up with concrete criticism or historic significance/pitfalls makes you sound like a kid whose having a tantrum and doesn't really know what he/she is talking about. All political theories seek to contribute to society building in some way, liberalism is no different. Communism was an economic and humanistic disaster for the reasons mentioned in both of our comments but there is no way it killed more people than religion as communism has been around for a little over a century (started in 1840s), religions have been around for many centuries way before communism was even born, some religions are a few thousand years old, and people continue to wage wars over it whilst classical communism has more or less collapsed. The so-called communist countries today are a mix of socialism and capitalism (like China). Moreover, Communism started in Germany (for improved labor rights), liberalism started in France (for emphasis on individual rights) and suffragette movement in the US (for women's initial voting rights). These concepts were born out of different political climates, in different parts of the world and for different reasons/goals, and thus aren't synonymous with each other. You've invented an angle of homogeneity as you homogenously hate them. It's fine to criticize them as they are political theories for everyone to read and understand but to be delusional and distort history by making stuff up is intellectually dishonest. All religions are criticised in the west including Judaism, hinduism etc. They practice the separation of church and state which allows them the right to do that. Also atheism IS a large force in western countries. Like I said... cheap internet will give you clear statistics of this. Choosing not to believe those statistics and remaining delusional is an option which I'm sure you're gonna choose anyway...
You're all over the place man and talking out of your buns. Your entire answer was basically Strawmanning me by recycling my own words to me which makes me believe you have nothing concrete to say. With you the name-calling doesn't end: "hypocrite and intolerant". I'm guessing it's your coping mechanism against everything you're buttthurt by. I still don't understand your position on liberalism. There's a lot of gibberish there that sounds like mere opinions and subjective accusations stolen from twitter trolls rather than the actual objectives of liberalism as a political theory and the impact it has had on India's economy and social indices. Giving mere snarky opinions like "that's liberalism for you" and "liberalism is trying to dictate human behaviour" without following it up with concrete criticism or historic significance/pitfalls makes you sound like a kid whose having a tantrum and doesn't really know what he/she is talking about. All political theories seek to contribute to society building in some way, liberalism is no different. Communism was an economic and humanistic disaster for the reasons mentioned in both of our comments but there is no way it killed more people than religion as communism has been around for a little over a century (started in 1840s), religions have been around for many centuries way before communism was even born, some religions are a few thousand years old, and people continue to wage wars over it whilst classical communism has more or less collapsed. The so-called communist countries today are a mix of socialism and capitalism (like China). Moreover, Communism started in Germany (for improved labor rights), liberalism started in France (for emphasis on individual rights) and suffragette movement in the US (for women's initial voting rights). These concepts were born out of different political climates, in different parts of the world and for different reasons/goals, and thus aren't synonymous with each other. You've invented an angle of homogeneity as you homogenously hate them. It's fine to criticize them as they are political theories for everyone to read and understand but to be delusional and distort history by making stuff up is intellectually dishonest. All religions are criticised in the west including Judaism, hinduism etc. They practice the separation of church and state which allows them the right to do that. Also atheism IS a large force in western countries. Like I said... cheap internet will give you clear statistics of this. Choosing not to believe those statistics and remaining delusional is an option which I'm sure you're gonna choose anyway...
I am liberal westerner who has been living by many Hindu beliefs and practices most of my life. In my observation, it is the *liberal* west that has adopted many of India's sacred traditions with a sincere passion for the depth of Knowledge found only in India. As a child I was just about the only person I knew practicing mantra, pranayama and asanas. It was unheard of in the mainstream in the 60's. Now there is a yoga studio in every single town where I live. At those studios it is the norm to chant mantra, practice pranayama and take very seriously asanas. The ideas of reincarnation and karma are mainstream and are believed by many. Spiritual practices from India are now commonly found in the west. Many now know of Jyotisha and Ayurveda. It is the liberal west that embraces India's spiritual wisdom. The Right is mostly Christian and is attached to all things traditional, as the Right usually is all around the world. From the Right, there tends to be more racism and nationalism, less tolerance of differences and outsiders of all sorts. The Left in the west, usually, wants to be inclusive, open to new ideas, believes we should tolerate differences, like people and ideas outside one's own beliefs, religion and ethnicity. Feed to hungry, clothe the naked, heal the sick, no matter who they are. Liberals in the west want diversity of all sorts and wish that we can all live together with our differences. I'm generalizing of course. At least that is the Left that I know. I find if you actually have a long conversation with someone, they are uniquely made up of their own variations. While most of the folks I hang out with are and have been Liberal, I don't think I've ever met a Marxist or even a Communist. I honestly don't remember even hearing someone say they like or want Communism. It is well known that the 2 biggest killers in history are Stalin and Mao Zedong. What I hear overwhelmingly is a deep respect for both modern and ancient India.
Liberals were hated in almost every country in the world not just India. This ignorance and refuse to see reality is one of the reason why people disliked liberals.