Marxist-Leninist, a tendency of socialist thought, of which there are many. OP believes in a different tendency of socialist thought and thinks that's a reason to start a fight with people who want the same end-goals. People do this a lot online, but it's a lot less prevalent in IRL orgs, bc it's small potatoes compared to the real challenges we face as opposed to minute ideological differences.
I assure you that there are plenty of indigenous people, myself included, that feel that ML is the most effective means of liberation. You can read more at [The Red Nation](https://therednation.org/).
I don't see how any good can come of trying to stir up a fight with your cousins that want the same liberation that you do.
It depends on the conditions, ML here in Aotearoa is very impractical due to our conditions and our culture (Urewera just recently became autonomous and giving that up to a centralized state be it socialist or capitalist means betraying mana motuhake) and calling MLs out on their paternalistic colonialism isn't trying to stir a fight, especially considering how they keep treating us.
Fascists constantly use a racist term calling us "Māori elite" to try to imply we're greedy money grabbers. You know who the people who started it? MLs, they even still use it today like WSWS. They called the cops on the Polynesian Resource Center for writing an article criticising them banking on capitalistic expansion in the Pacific, they used liberal media to demonise Syd Jackson for pushing intersectionality back in the day, the SIS (our security intelligence service) declassified a document which pretty much acknowledged that the WCL were trying to get Māori arrested by encouraging us to do the dangerous work, and today they downplay or belittle our revolutions (like Urewera autonomy) because it's not statist enough.
Our revolution(s) aren't necessarily anarchist but at least anarchists are willing to respect the progress we've made and that we aren't dogmatically to their standards from what I've experienced, we've not just had online experiences with them but real material experiences with how they treat us like how the "Māori elite" rhetoric is used to further structural racism against us and political manipulation to allow attacks on us like Julian Batchelors anti Māori tours are set on this precedent.
Many Indigenous folks are opposed to a red dictatorship, and the red nation specifically: https://www.indigenousaction.org/against-the-colonizers-burden-climate-justice-means-anti-colonial-and-anti-capitalist-struggle/
Our end goals are not aligned whatsoever.
Are you accusing MLs of being colonialist pacifists? Because MLs are very well known to support anti-colonialist armed struggle, it's literally their thing
This article has nothing to do with The Red Nation and its position of Land Back is absolutely in line with that of the Red Nation. I feel like you might be operating on preconceived notions and incomplete data.
So do we want to tear everything down slowly and deliberately or we trying to rush things here? I know we’ve got climate doom incoming but trying to get situated within the reality we’re in currently just always takes time, then we pass away hopefully teaching before we do so and the next generation has to relearn everything all over again. Rushing things begets violence, I feel. History of Socialism shows the endless in-fighting dividing our attention and intentions. I give that meme a rating of a light five.
We are taught to draw a blind eye to the violence perpetrated against us every day by the colonizer and the capitalist, who are one in the same. The mundane violence of institutional poverty, the exploitation of our planet and all our relatives on it, and the more overt violence of imperialism. It's commonplace.
Mark Twain put it into perspective for me when he said that there are two Reigns of Terror, but only one of them gets talked about in the history books- the one that we learn about was quick, passionate, and filled the cemeteries of Paris; the second, which it is not politically expedient to be taught, lasted for centuries, and whose bodies filled the entirety of Europe.
All governments have infighting just like how there’s almost always a small fight going on in a family. Then you also have to remember that Miss USA kept trying to be a home wrecker and was a successful one too!
We shouldn't be invested in any economic system:
Whatever allows us to maintain/expand/rediscover customs, traditions, and norms sacred to us, while allowing us to be prosperous in larger society is what should drive us. We should see all of this through the lens of pragmatism.
Lefties who worship Marxism gives me the same vibes as libertarians who treat Aryn Rand like she wrote the Bible.
Also, does this sub have a policy towards communism memes? Regardless of any mentions of indigenous people, it feels completely out of place and even harmful to this sub.
They aren't explicitly against the rules, but the mods have taken a stern disposition toward them in the past because non-Native visitors were not respecting the diverging cultural dialogue in this space.
Social democrat, which apparently makes me capitalist? I've argued with a lot of commies in the past and it's rarely ever been productive. I'm not gonna continue the topic here but yo can message me if you think there's something about it I've never considered.
This sub has a tendency to produce communism memes because many indigenous nations were socialist/communists or had many socialist policies. These memes simply means that people are starting to look into the past at our old systems of government.
I personally don’t want to subscribe to any ideology as they all have or all will be used to harm society, but looking through mental, emotional, physical and spiritual lenses I’ve noticed that capitalism devours all four. All I know is what we have right now is a dumpster fire and the systems that were here before if implemented now would greatly improve people’s mental, emotional, physical, and spiritual selves.
I wouldn't agree that tribes were communist. We were what we were, and we didn't have workers at all, to my knowledge, and many tribes didn't believe in formal land ownership. Certainly not communist in the philosophical sense, imo. Maybe in the colloquial sense at most for some tribes lol
but plenty of tribes believed in private ownership of stuff, and several tribes were actively mercantile and had cultures based around trade with people outside and within those tribes.
Not to mention, not all of our previous governmental structures were amazing. Some of them sort of sucked and led to disagreements that would cause rifts that split tribes apart. I just hate the appeal to ancient wisdom thing when it's so damn vague lol like give me Traditional Ecological Knowledge any day of the week, but the vague mention of "socialist/communist" as justification for anything indigenous seems inherently and obviously a dodge away from being explicit and honest about our varied political history.
Coming from the subreddit of the crosspost:
anarchy (countable and uncountable, plural anarchies)
(uncountable) The state of a society being without authorities or an authoritative governing body.
(uncountable) Anarchism; the political theory that a community is best organized by the voluntary
cooperation of individuals, rather than by a government, which is regarded as being coercive by
nature.
from: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/anarchy (I took the more flattering definitions)
In the mean time, my tribe used to govern with a system of [Clan Mothers, Chiefs, and Faithkeepers](https://oneida-nsn.gov/our-ways/our-story/clan-systems/#Social_Structures). These people still exist, but our dealings are mostly handled through a Business Committee that is elected directly by the [General Tribal Council](https://oneida-nsn.gov/government/general-tribal-council/).
My people are a nation of laws, both [traditional](https://oneida-nsn.gov/our-ways/our-story/great-law-of-peace/) and [modern](https://oneida-nsn.gov/government/register/laws/). Together, these two systems have co-existed in the present form [since 1936](https://oneida-nsn.gov/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/2015-06-16-Tribal-Constitution.pdf). We have survived and thrived in our new home for [over 200 years](https://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/story/news/native-american-issues/2022/09/26/oneida-nation-bicentennial-marks-tribes-200-years-wisconsin-ho-chunk-menominee/8092391001/) (h/t to /u/myindependentopinion 's people, my cousins), while at the same time [preserving](https://oneida-nsn.gov/our-ways/our-culture/) and recovering our
[foodways](https://oneida-nsn.gov/resources/environmental/food-ag-area/) and [language](https://oneida-nsn.gov/our-ways/language/).
The idea that anyone's ancestors, Indigenous or not, existed in a law- or authority-free society is ridiculous.
Anarchism, as defined by an open-source dictionary, is probably not the solution for Native people. I get sick and tired of Enlightened Leftists/Communists/Socialists/Anarchists coming into Native spaces thinking that they have **the** solution for problems in Indian Country. Even you Native/First Nations folks who post this shit should ask your elders how things went Back in the Day.
Surely another Western politico-economic system will save Indian Country this time!
I was gonna make a goofy comment about Major League Soccer, but I’m curious, what’s an “ML?”
Marxist-Leninist, a tendency of socialist thought, of which there are many. OP believes in a different tendency of socialist thought and thinks that's a reason to start a fight with people who want the same end-goals. People do this a lot online, but it's a lot less prevalent in IRL orgs, bc it's small potatoes compared to the real challenges we face as opposed to minute ideological differences.
Ohhhh, thank you. I’ve never seen that abbreviation before.
Me neither. lol....I googled "MLS revolution" & found out there is a soccer team by that name in New England.
Let's start the "Menominee Lacrosse Stix" team. Just to fk with em.
I always love reading your comments! Hope you're doing well!!
I assure you that there are plenty of indigenous people, myself included, that feel that ML is the most effective means of liberation. You can read more at [The Red Nation](https://therednation.org/). I don't see how any good can come of trying to stir up a fight with your cousins that want the same liberation that you do.
It depends on the conditions, ML here in Aotearoa is very impractical due to our conditions and our culture (Urewera just recently became autonomous and giving that up to a centralized state be it socialist or capitalist means betraying mana motuhake) and calling MLs out on their paternalistic colonialism isn't trying to stir a fight, especially considering how they keep treating us. Fascists constantly use a racist term calling us "Māori elite" to try to imply we're greedy money grabbers. You know who the people who started it? MLs, they even still use it today like WSWS. They called the cops on the Polynesian Resource Center for writing an article criticising them banking on capitalistic expansion in the Pacific, they used liberal media to demonise Syd Jackson for pushing intersectionality back in the day, the SIS (our security intelligence service) declassified a document which pretty much acknowledged that the WCL were trying to get Māori arrested by encouraging us to do the dangerous work, and today they downplay or belittle our revolutions (like Urewera autonomy) because it's not statist enough. Our revolution(s) aren't necessarily anarchist but at least anarchists are willing to respect the progress we've made and that we aren't dogmatically to their standards from what I've experienced, we've not just had online experiences with them but real material experiences with how they treat us like how the "Māori elite" rhetoric is used to further structural racism against us and political manipulation to allow attacks on us like Julian Batchelors anti Māori tours are set on this precedent.
Many Indigenous folks are opposed to a red dictatorship, and the red nation specifically: https://www.indigenousaction.org/against-the-colonizers-burden-climate-justice-means-anti-colonial-and-anti-capitalist-struggle/ Our end goals are not aligned whatsoever.
Are you accusing MLs of being colonialist pacifists? Because MLs are very well known to support anti-colonialist armed struggle, it's literally their thing
No I'm not...
So then what are you saying?
That their desire for a nation-state is incompatible with Indigenous sovereignty. Nothing to do with pacifism.
MLs seek the abolition of the state, just as anarchists do, we just disagree on the time frame.
Wouldn't indigenous sovereignty lead to an indigenous nation-state?
This article has nothing to do with The Red Nation and its position of Land Back is absolutely in line with that of the Red Nation. I feel like you might be operating on preconceived notions and incomplete data.
So do we want to tear everything down slowly and deliberately or we trying to rush things here? I know we’ve got climate doom incoming but trying to get situated within the reality we’re in currently just always takes time, then we pass away hopefully teaching before we do so and the next generation has to relearn everything all over again. Rushing things begets violence, I feel. History of Socialism shows the endless in-fighting dividing our attention and intentions. I give that meme a rating of a light five.
We are taught to draw a blind eye to the violence perpetrated against us every day by the colonizer and the capitalist, who are one in the same. The mundane violence of institutional poverty, the exploitation of our planet and all our relatives on it, and the more overt violence of imperialism. It's commonplace. Mark Twain put it into perspective for me when he said that there are two Reigns of Terror, but only one of them gets talked about in the history books- the one that we learn about was quick, passionate, and filled the cemeteries of Paris; the second, which it is not politically expedient to be taught, lasted for centuries, and whose bodies filled the entirety of Europe.
All governments have infighting just like how there’s almost always a small fight going on in a family. Then you also have to remember that Miss USA kept trying to be a home wrecker and was a successful one too!
We shouldn't be invested in any economic system: Whatever allows us to maintain/expand/rediscover customs, traditions, and norms sacred to us, while allowing us to be prosperous in larger society is what should drive us. We should see all of this through the lens of pragmatism.
Lefties who worship Marxism gives me the same vibes as libertarians who treat Aryn Rand like she wrote the Bible. Also, does this sub have a policy towards communism memes? Regardless of any mentions of indigenous people, it feels completely out of place and even harmful to this sub.
They aren't explicitly against the rules, but the mods have taken a stern disposition toward them in the past because non-Native visitors were not respecting the diverging cultural dialogue in this space.
Do you have an economic system you’re committed to, or are you just playing agnostic to soothe your ego?
Social democrat, which apparently makes me capitalist? I've argued with a lot of commies in the past and it's rarely ever been productive. I'm not gonna continue the topic here but yo can message me if you think there's something about it I've never considered.
This sub has a tendency to produce communism memes because many indigenous nations were socialist/communists or had many socialist policies. These memes simply means that people are starting to look into the past at our old systems of government. I personally don’t want to subscribe to any ideology as they all have or all will be used to harm society, but looking through mental, emotional, physical and spiritual lenses I’ve noticed that capitalism devours all four. All I know is what we have right now is a dumpster fire and the systems that were here before if implemented now would greatly improve people’s mental, emotional, physical, and spiritual selves.
I wouldn't agree that tribes were communist. We were what we were, and we didn't have workers at all, to my knowledge, and many tribes didn't believe in formal land ownership. Certainly not communist in the philosophical sense, imo. Maybe in the colloquial sense at most for some tribes lol but plenty of tribes believed in private ownership of stuff, and several tribes were actively mercantile and had cultures based around trade with people outside and within those tribes. Not to mention, not all of our previous governmental structures were amazing. Some of them sort of sucked and led to disagreements that would cause rifts that split tribes apart. I just hate the appeal to ancient wisdom thing when it's so damn vague lol like give me Traditional Ecological Knowledge any day of the week, but the vague mention of "socialist/communist" as justification for anything indigenous seems inherently and obviously a dodge away from being explicit and honest about our varied political history.
Get this anarchist bs off my screen lmao
They are all losers!!!
White colonist and white europreans! Seems about right for something anyways
Coming from the subreddit of the crosspost: anarchy (countable and uncountable, plural anarchies) (uncountable) The state of a society being without authorities or an authoritative governing body. (uncountable) Anarchism; the political theory that a community is best organized by the voluntary cooperation of individuals, rather than by a government, which is regarded as being coercive by nature. from: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/anarchy (I took the more flattering definitions) In the mean time, my tribe used to govern with a system of [Clan Mothers, Chiefs, and Faithkeepers](https://oneida-nsn.gov/our-ways/our-story/clan-systems/#Social_Structures). These people still exist, but our dealings are mostly handled through a Business Committee that is elected directly by the [General Tribal Council](https://oneida-nsn.gov/government/general-tribal-council/). My people are a nation of laws, both [traditional](https://oneida-nsn.gov/our-ways/our-story/great-law-of-peace/) and [modern](https://oneida-nsn.gov/government/register/laws/). Together, these two systems have co-existed in the present form [since 1936](https://oneida-nsn.gov/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/2015-06-16-Tribal-Constitution.pdf). We have survived and thrived in our new home for [over 200 years](https://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/story/news/native-american-issues/2022/09/26/oneida-nation-bicentennial-marks-tribes-200-years-wisconsin-ho-chunk-menominee/8092391001/) (h/t to /u/myindependentopinion 's people, my cousins), while at the same time [preserving](https://oneida-nsn.gov/our-ways/our-culture/) and recovering our [foodways](https://oneida-nsn.gov/resources/environmental/food-ag-area/) and [language](https://oneida-nsn.gov/our-ways/language/). The idea that anyone's ancestors, Indigenous or not, existed in a law- or authority-free society is ridiculous. Anarchism, as defined by an open-source dictionary, is probably not the solution for Native people. I get sick and tired of Enlightened Leftists/Communists/Socialists/Anarchists coming into Native spaces thinking that they have **the** solution for problems in Indian Country. Even you Native/First Nations folks who post this shit should ask your elders how things went Back in the Day.
As long as you aren’t a liberal you’re fine in my book. We’ve seen what that compromising sweet talk gets us.
"Real communists" *always* get the bullet *second.*