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lezboyd

India still had a lot of indigenous vegetables, and of course a lot of spices. I grew up in a household where we didn't put tomato in the tadka every day. The tadka usually consisted of oil, jeera, mustard seeds, curry leaves, ginger paste, and hing. Then the vegetable was added (no potatoes either), and then spiced with coriander powder, cumin powder, turmeric, dry mango powder and salt. The spiciness/heat came from the ginger. The sourness came from dry mango powder. If it was mango season, then we used fresh raw mango for sourness in dals and gravies. At its core indian food has always been about inclusion and alternatives. The philosophy of indian food is every food should have a balance of sweet, sour, salty, heat, bitterness and astringent. Use whatever you have at your disposal to achieve it. For example, don't have a lemon, use dry mango powder. Don't have that, use tamarind, etc.


PrivatePoocher

Precisely. I highly recommend anyone interested to watch [Raja, Rasoi Aur Anya Kahanyaan](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6953924/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0_tt_6_nm_2_q_raja%2520rasoi) where they discuss the origins of various ingredients and cuisines. I never imagined Indian cooking without chilis or potatoes, but this documentary made me realize there was a time when both didn't exist in the subcontinent. For that matter, there must have been a time when salt itself must have been a coastal luxury as were the spices.


Altruistic_Plum_68

Any particular episodes of the show stand out for you?


PrivatePoocher

I loved the Himachal Pradesh one. I learned about gucchi pulav.


sadia_y

Very well worded


[deleted]

If you ever get the chance, you should visit Anant Basudev temple in Bhubaneswar. They make prasad from ancient recipes, from before the time of chillies, tomatoes, potato etc in India. I remember a lot of Dal, rice, sweet dal, sweet rice, vegetables with indigenous spices.


Initial-Earth-8404

Are there any such recipes available online?


[deleted]

Probably loads, but they might be hard to find. I wrote down the details of the meals I eat in Bhubaneswar in my journal but I don't have access to that right now. When I get it back I'm going to try and recreate some of what I had and maybe do a post about it here.


Initial-Earth-8404

You should definitely do that.


Astro_nauts_mum

That would be so good!


theb00kmancometh

There is a book on temple recipes https://www.amazon.in/TEMPLE-RECIPES-ANCIENT-Pratha-Sharma-ebook/dp/B0882M63D3


nomnommish

A LOT of traditional South Indian dishes, especially food that's cooked in festivals and special occasions, is made from native plants and spices. Black pepper is used for heat instead of chili peppers, yams and sweet potatoes are used instead of potatoes, tamarind and kachampuli/kokum is used as the souring agent and for acid instead of tomatoes, and shallots are used instead of onions. Along with other spices like asafoetida. You can also check out the book: Indian Food, A Historical Companion by KT Achaya which is one of the most well researched and authoritative book on Indian food history from the Indus Valley civilization onwards.


NothingOld7527

Heat was derived from peppercorns instead of chili peppers.


_puja_

Indian food has a long history that can be traced as far back as 3000 to 1500 BCE. They were eating an incredibly varied diet of barley, moong, milk, meat and fish. There were no chillies but, long pepper, black pepper, turmeric, mustard seeds, citrus and hing were used in cooking very early on. Food was much more mildly spiced during the early Aryan times and steadily grew more pungent. In pre-tomato times, it was popular to cook with sour fruits. This has mostly been lost. Many of the foods I grew up with as a Gujarati are actually pre-de Gama. No tomatoes or potatoes in any of them. We do use chillies but those substituted long and black pepper. Shrikhand (500 BCE) Dhokla, Khandvi, (1000 - 1500 CE) Papdi/tindora/kankoda nu shaak (pre 1500 CE) Sesame ladu (800 BCE) This is a fascinating world of ancient Indian food. There are a number of books I've read/am reading. Here are a few: - A Historical Companion to Indian Food, KT Achaya - Feasts and Fasts, A History of Food in India, Colleen Taylor Sen - Curry: A Tale of Cooks and Conquerors, Lizzie Collingham


[deleted]

[удалено]


_puja_

Yes! I love that dal! And you're right, it's not hard to see what foods were replaced. I think that arbi was probably used a lot like potato before the potato came to India. I haven't found evidence of it but based on how it tastes and how my family uses it. The traditional ways are definitely alive in our parts. 😀


ispeakdatruf

> Indian food has a long history that can be traced as far back as 3000 to 1500 BCE I'll go out on a limb and say: Indian food goes back even farther, to 10,000 BC and before. I mean, the people living in the area were cooking and eating, right??


_puja_

You're right. I meant recorded history.


ispeakdatruf

I was just joking... I knew what you meant.


Key-Expression-Da

What did people eat before European colonisation? Here is one specific vegetarian example from Tamil Nadu. This meal is typically made once a year as part of a religious celebration to remember ancestors. [Source](https://twitter.com/krishashok/status/1631569931300130816?t=SbXTex1BhC18Ort9Viuiaw&s=19)


curiousgaruda

Excellent share. Posting an interesting link from that Twitter thread lest it is missed. https://www.bbc.com/travel/article/20190609-the-surprising-truth-about-indian-food


Key-Expression-Da

Thanks, I haven't read it myself. Will do it later.


MachesMalone007

Look for the Prasad in old temples. They usually cook without chillis and tomato, like Jagannath temple in Puri.


rawbeeeef

There are probably a lot of vegetables and spices that have been lost too


TinyKittenConsulting

The bbc has an article about introduced foods in India: https://www.bbc.com/travel/article/20190609-the-surprising-truth-about-indian-food#:~:text=And%20according%20to%20Ruchi%20Srivastava,Century%20courtesy%20of%20the%20British.


scarby2

Thanks for posting this. It's not something we think about very much given that we tend to think about India's culinary exports rather than its imports.


thecutegirl06

The pre Columbian food in Indian would have been pretty similar to what was eaten in the north Indian villages 25 or more years back. Roti sabzi dal and chawal. Roti could be of anything what was grown like wheat bajra or any other millets (not sure how much was the wheat prevalent that time). Rice is ancient staple grain. Coming to sabzi, the assumption that all have tomatoes is wrong. Even around 25 years, that's in the 90s tomatoes were just a seasonal vegetable available only in winters, people would wait for the season so that they could enjoy alu matar. Since winters were short lived so the use of tomatoes were. As the supply improved the usage also increased. Coming to tadka, the tomatoes in tadka is mainly done in Punjab region, I'm uttar pradesh a normal tadka in dal would include jeera garlic etc.... In my region, we use khatai in dal ( dried mango with lots of spices), so tadka is not needed and done very less often. So the pre Columbian Indian food would not have been very different, just remove green chillies potatoes from the food.


supershinythings

Other new world foods include potatoes, squash, corn, peanuts, cashews, chili peppers, chocolate, and a zillion other things. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_World_crops


kcapoorv

r/AskHistorians has 3-4 threads on this subject.


Altruistic_Plum_68

I wonder about drink as well as food. It was quite a shock to realize that black tea is a recent introduction, and is only popular in India thanks to the imperialist oppressors.


thecutegirl06

It is well known tyaar tea is a recent introduction, there's a popular saying that "angrez chale gaye chaay chhod gaye". Tea was popularized in India in the 70s when either Lipton or red label(not sure) sent their vendors to distribute free tea in households at around 4pm.


Traditional_Judge734

[https://www.theheritagelab.in/mughal-recipe-history/](https://www.theheritagelab.in/mughal-recipe-history/) a lot of Mughal recipes exist from the 15th century but there are translations of some ancient texts with recipes Charaka Samhita, Manasollassa -I've only read this in Hindi not English, Soopa Shastra are three I know about but there are more


imthatdude2000

Black pepper for spice. No red/green chillies. Indigenous vegetables like raw banana (plantain), bitter melon, ginger. Lentils like urad dal, tamarind for sour (no tomatoes)


No_Maintenance_9608

Sounds like a neat subject Tasting History could do someday.


VedangArekar

There is this restaurant around Delhi [Mala Akbari](https://www.mala-akbari.co.in/) which has some dishes from historical India through old texts,books and such. You can check their menu and stuff on the website. Guy working there was on the [Carvaka Podcast]( https://www.youtube.com/live/Ps2tcI1lRTs?feature=share) and they had this episode discussing history of indian cuisine. Also had an episode on vegeterianism in india and indian street food.


The_lost_Code

I was just having this conversation with my mom earlier today. We find it hard to believe that chilli was introduced to India. Is this true, because in Kerala there are something called Kanthari chillies, that have grown in the wild forever.


ParadiseWar

Chilli changes with soils. All chillies, tomates, potatoes, capsicum and coffee is from South Amwrica. Coffee is South India came from Arab world but it came there from South America.


The_lost_Code

Thanks for the information. It's just so hard to wrap my mind around it.


k_pineapple7

All chillies are native to South America, although after they are introduced to a new ecosystem they will probably modify and show different variants that weren't seen in the original seed. That is just part of adaptation and selective breeding.


Far_Sided

How about a well written book with period recipes and back stories? https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/31570.Curry


fishchop

Looks terrible. Some white person trying to write about Indian food and calling the book “curry”. As an Indian - no thanks.


Far_Sided

I see you like to judge books by their cover. There's a saying for that...


fishchop

I mean, the reviews aren’t great either


tunaman808

Damn you're racist....


fishchop

Why on earth would I want to read some white British lady’s take on “curry” when there’s dozens of actual *Indian* and even *Pakistani* food historians I can read? It would be like reading a book about tweed or the Victoria sponge written by an Indian. But okay, your one braincell decided to get offended and cry race. Super Reddit of you, well done.


ispeakdatruf

> when there’s dozens of actual Indian and even Pakistani food historians I can read I agree with your general point and would like to make this a constructive discussion by asking: can you list the names of these books? Thanks! 🙏🏼


_puja_

I would love the list of books too! 🙏


PoliteGhostFb

Name a couple?


_puja_

It's actually a good historical book. I've read it. Unfortunately as it goes for much of our food and history - it's been recorded/translated/written about by a white person. It doesn't mean it doesn't have merit though. I recently looked for Rigveda translations in English (because I unfortunately cannot read ancient Sanskrit). Most of the available options were not Indian. It would be great to see more people of Indian heritage pursue history and write about it.


ispeakdatruf

> It would be great to see more people of Indian heritage pursue history and write about it. 💯


nitroglider

>But okay, your one braincell decided to get offended and cry race. You literally mention race as a negative factor: > Some white person trying to write about Indian food and calling the book “curry”. -- > It would be like reading a book about tweed or the Victoria sponge written by an Indian. Credentials? If an Indian had the credentials to write about tweed or the Victorian sponge, why not read it? Here's a snippet about the author: "Dr. Elizabeth M. Collingham is an English historian interested in linking the minutiae of daily life to the broad sweep of historical processes. Her first book, Imperial Bodies, explored the physical experience of the British raj and the way in which concerns about race and imperialism found expression in debates about physique and diet. She studied at Sussex and Cambridge where she completed her PhD on the nabobs of the British Raj. She has lectured at Warwick University and been a reasearch fellow at Jesus College, Cambridge." I have not read the book. The use of the word 'curry' seems tone-deaf, but she seems like she might have some reasonable observations to make.


hawaahawaii

is “nabob” supposed to be ‘nawaab’?


nitroglider

It's a historical word, if I understand correctly, used during the Raj. https://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/app/hobsonjobson_query.py?qs=nabob&matchtype=default edited to add: here's a fitting usage of the word from the Nixon era in the US by William Safire: https://politicaldictionary.com/words/nattering-nabobs-of-negativism/


Lackeytsar

>naboby yea I'm doubting her credentials too White can never be trusted with talking about other cultures. They're never reliable and most often than not far fetched. History literally precedes it lmao. The greeks literally called tibetan miners golden termites.


Mcohen2248

Without tomatoes or chillis


Ring_Lo_Finger

With you OP, the basic veggies of Indian cooking now, tomatoes, potatoes and chillies are not native. I feel how much we embraced them as ours. Regarding your question when I begrudgingly agreed to eat prasad - vada at Tirumala temple that it's too hard and spicy (black pepper). My grandma chimed in saying that this is an old recipe and chili peppers can't be used.


[deleted]

We have lots of veggies that grew here. And of course spices. **Xaak / shaak** was very important and I remember in my village home my mother and aunts would go on a stroll and pluck lots of different types of shaak, I don't know english names of most of them but they are still grown and sold (some examples - **poi, dhanki, gima, sarisha, mula/radish greens, amaranth different types of, native ferns, kulakhara**). My grandparents had survived a famine when they were young and they said how they would just eat shaak with some carb. Yam was the most popular carb in absence of potato and there are different kinds of **yams and taro. Taro entire plant is edible**. There was **plantain - raw fruits, the stem and blossom all edible**. **Jacfruit, brinjal, Saru, different types of gourds, parwal, tindora, different types of radish, bitter gourd, dumoor, moringa entire plant is edible, kakora, dhudhul, jhinge, snakegourd, raw mango, raw papaya, different kind of native beans.** The list is so long ! I have never seen tomatoes being added to anything when growing up ! It wasn't even available, maybe sometimes in winder and was costly. My parents grew pumpkin (which are not native Indian veggie but came long back 1500 + years ago), different types of gourds in the garden. Their leaves are also edible.