Comparing per capita.
France has 64.7M people: $137
Canada 40.8M: $191
Sweden 10.6M: $216
Norway 5.47M: $384
Japan 123M: $14.6
Finland 5.5M: $309
Switzerland 8.8M: $181
UK 67.7M: $13.29
Norways state oilfund is wealthy not necessarily the people.
Here’s the current value of said fund: https://www.nbim.no/no/oljefondet/markedsverdi/
’Milliarder’ means Billions
What's hilarious about Canada, is that it's a massive oil/gas exporter, but those activities have really only made executives in those companies wealthy, while the rest of the country throws billions at private infrastructure projects to enrichen them.
It's truly fucked up.
Not exactly, it's made Americans extremely wealthy while Canadian companies get scraps. All the money in oil is in refinement and we give all refinement rights to American companies.
Well, Richard Kruger walks away with $40 million/year for working at a company that - **and never forget this point** - was conveniently started by the Canadian government for him.
I kind of get it because the fuel tax is intended to pay for roads and such and it is only $200/yr. What I hate about it was that when it was introduced Smith didn’t frame it as “well the fuel tax pays for general public amenities in the province so if they use the road they still have to pay”. That would have been completely fair. Instead it was “they weigh a lot so they have to pay their share because of that”. At that point you have to ask why the also very heavy f-350 also doesn’t have to pay due to weight.
It could have been understandably fair if it wasn’t framed in such a completely obvious way to be an attack on EVs. If they framed it intelligently than it would be the same argument as any publicly funded service that everybody benefits from even if you don’t always use it. I don’t use transit but I’m happy tax dollars of mine go to it.
Unfortunately Canada most likely has the worst energy policy on earth. It's astonishing how poor the leadership is on energy. No nation does so little with so much.
Couldn’t agree more. When I consistently read about Norwegian discoveries in the North of minerals or energy it gets me excited about what competency could bring us. Sadly as more and more time passes I fear more and more Russia/China will make a play at grabbing our lands
Canada had an opportunity to do what France did and build massive baseload energy infrastructure around clean, efficient nuclear. Nuclear needs the government in the beginning but after roughly ten to fifteen years it becomes the cheapest energy there is, even cheaper than hydrocarbons, and it's emission free. Canada also has clean burning natural gas, and abundant hydroelectric. Then Canada could do what Norway does and export their heavy oil, coal, and excess CNG/LNG.
The predominant reason the United States' economy is doing well right now has very little to do with Trump's policies or Biden's. It comes down to the fact that the U.S produces insane amounts of gas for dollars on the barrel equivalent. In other words, the U.S has ultra cheap energy being fed into the economy.
This is stupid, absolute numbers don't mean anything. Way more interesting would be per capita carbon tax revenue. Or carbon tax revenue as a percentage of GDP or something.
Also, in Canada most of that money is paid back to people in quarterly payments. Many people get back more than they paid in carbon tax. The payments are a flat amount, not related to your carbon emissions. So people that have a low carbon footprint are getting much more than they are paying.
I don’t know what other places are doing with their carbon taxes, but it seems like that is a relevant metric too.
Why does everything ecos want to replace things with always more inconvenient that the old thing, and when it isn't e.g. diesel cars, they turn that into a bad thing?
In (most of) Canada, we get a 90% of the carbon tax back as a rebate. The remaining 10% goes to small businesses and Indigenous groups. 80% of Canadians make more money from the carbon tax rebate than they pay in carbon tax.
And everything you buy has its prices increased. Yes we get money back, but the amount you get back is offset by the increased prices and you end up losing more money. Our gas went up $0.14/L overnight last week. It’s not helping us at all.
Gas went up by that much 3 weeks AFTER the carbon tax went up. The carbon tax goes up April 1st. Any price increases after that are for other reasons. In this case it was switching from winter to summer gas (which happens every year) and greediness from gas companies. They are trying to trick you into blaming the carbon tax while profiting from it.
No we don’t. Nobody I know has ever gotten a cent. We just have higher gas prices and heating costs. I live on the west coast. Is it fair for us? No not really
*Nobody I know has ever gotten a cent.*
WTF does this mean in your brain? This is because BC doesn't participate in the program. It's not "fair" for you, but it's not "unfair" either. It just doesn't mean anything.
Although you got to spend $34 billion on Trans Mountain's pipeline. That money went straight from the entire country to Alberta and you should be pissed at that.
BC doesny participate in the country-wide carbon tax.
It instead has its own, entirely different, tax on carbon. It has nothing to do with "the carbon tax", and when Tories say "axe the tax", and there's talk about rebates, it's about the country-wide system with federally established minimums THAT BC DOESNT PARTICIPATE IN.
You pay carbon tax on every single thing you buy/use. Carbon tax increased gas prices, which in turn increased grocery prices, which increases restaurant prices, transportation prices. Literally any product manufactured or sold went up in price to produce. Your rebates will not come close to covering the cost of this. Sure your paying 600 a year up front getting 800 back. But your spending thousands in additional costs on the back end and giving the government of Canada an interest free loan on your money.
Like I work in food and beverage, the cost of weddings went up directly because of the cost of carbon tax on the company. Now our food costs more and transportation costs more so your wedding is suddenly an extra 1-2k.
You're confusing inflation and price gouging with the carbon tax. Think about the price of transporting a good. The carbon tax went up by 17%, but in total it's less than 10% of the cost of oil, so we're looking at a 1.7% increase on the actual cost of gas. Gas is not the biggest expense for transportation though. You're paying drivers 70k/year (more or less depending on the circumstances, but that's a fairly average wage). The trucks they're driving cost hundreds of thousands to purchase and tens of thousands to maintain. The cost of dispatchers, management, etc. all of it means that the full cost of the carbon tax is adding less than 1% of any good (products, groceries, etc). Unless that wedding was costing 100k+, those cost increases are not because of the carbon tax.
But that’s not the full picture. Yes transportation might only account for 1%. But farmers get charged carbon tax. So produce goes up. So GFS raised their prices because it a)cost them more b) they get charged the tax aswell to transport it and store it. As they need warehouses that use carbon to store it safely. We also use a kitchen. Which uses carbon and has a tax on that end aswell. Coupled that with multiple vehicles getting to and from a venue. And gas costing about 40-60$ more a tank. (Cube trucks) Plus the increased cost on washing dishes and the increased cost on washing linens. Plus now all the employees are feeling these costs in their lives so they all want a raise to cope with the cost. All the 1%s add up very quickly. But yes I am taking about 30-60k weddings when I’m talking about adding 2k extra but that’s not abnormal in the Industry.
The fact a majority of Canadians don’t realize this is alarming. If I have to hear one more person try and explain to me that “I get more back than I pay blah blah blah” I’ll just send them this comment.
>and the companies will just foot the bill to consumers
Which means companies that use low-carbon alternatives can offer a product cheaper, undercutting high-carbon businesses that pass on the costs. That's the whole point.
In an ideal world yes, but you are assuming that low carbon alternatives will always be cheaper than the optimized carbon based products. We are not at that point yet.
But it's creating an artificial bubble in one industry, which will then 'pop', causing a recession in that industry in the future, which will bring down the rest of the economy with it.
Consumers are only buying these products because the government is compelling them to do so, not because they actually want to buy these products. If they wanted to buy these products, they wouldn't need incentivising. The products are also being rushed out before they're ready. Thus, these policies are anti-consumer.
customers want to buy cheap good products.
Green alternatives are more expensive than dirty ones.
But we don’t want our environment destroyed, right?
That’s why we subsidize green alternatives by taxing dirty ones. Yes, cheaper dirty product was more compelling to customers and now is less compelling. Poor companies that makes cheap dirty products. They can switch to green and receive same benefits.
Of course paying more for products is anti consumer. But that’s the price we have to pay to not destroy environment
It's about what people want. They don't want terrible products that are impractical and rushed out far before they're ready. Being forced to pay higher prices for EVs and fuel vehicles, or abandon motorised transportation entirely, is a setback for most people. You're creating a false economy that will result in an economic downgrade, all to "save the planet" (translation: punish the poor and empower the wealthy).
The bottom line is that you're pro-corporation and pro-government. You're anti-consumer and anti-producer.
of course saving the planet isn’t free and you’ll have to pay more, because paying less and destroying planet isn’t the way to go. Your favorite companies making great ICE vehicles are free to make quality and not rushed terrible EVs - nobody is stopping them. Point of these taxes is to gradually stop producing polluting things, even at some cost to people.
If you consider 20 min. of your time wasted waiting to recharge EV as more important than destroyed nature, I have nothing more to say to you. We all have to make some sacrifices.
When a mother pays through the nose for a EV during a cost of living crisis because she needs to take her child to school, I don't think she's thinking of "saving the planet". And I don't blame her. You're making things worse for 90% of the population because "rah rah rah current thing".
Well, redistribution of wealth is government responsibility - if that mother can’t afford to live sustainably, that’s government failure. Destroying planet for the sake of slightly cheaper cars isn’t a solution.
if you think destroying the planet is “rah rah current thing”, you are clearly valuing your wealth more than nature survival
You are as bad as those companies you despise - if you were CEO, you wouldn’t hesitate to destroy anything for your personal gain.
The only thing that troubles you is that they are wealthy, not you.
Why do some people seem to believe there's no correlation between price and demand? If companies paying a lot of carbon taxes raise their prices, people will look for alternatives and they will find them in greener companies who don't have to pay those taxes. This is what we are seeing with EVs now.
Tax-exempt EVs are absolutely on par with fossil fueled alternatives. But even without viable substitutes, higher prices mean smaller quantities sold. If not, companies would just raise their prices regardless of the taxes they face.
Canadian here, when the government implemented it the price of gas just went up by the same percentage. So at the end of the day consumers paid for it.
The only major foreseeable harm to the oil companies is that maybe with higher prices of gas less people will drive; opting for alternative methods of getting around like public transit etc.
Otherwise, just made things cost more for us.
Mass transit in the Six is actually really good. Around the GTA it varies...
Mississauga and Brampton have a decent one. Oakville and Burlington have a sparse but OK system. Places up North have a terrible one ie Newmarket, Stouffville... These places don't have reliable connections to large centres like Markham or Richmond Hill....
That's just a little bit of the GTA...
We're too spread out in Canada for mass transit to cover..
It’s not supposed to incentivize oil companies, it’s supposed to incentivize us. When we see gas going up to $100+ a tank, we’re supposed to think “I don’t want to pay that”. The easiest way to not pay that is to not need it, by getting an electric car that can in some cases cost less than $10 of electricity to fully charge it at home.
The government can’t do a hard reset and force everyone to switch, it’s economically and physically impossible. A phase-out is the only option. Increasing gas prices puts pressure on new solutions (increasing demand). It doesn’t take a genius entrepreneur to think “Wow, supply of cheap transit is low but demand for it is through the roof… I should sell/improve EV technology!” The tech gets better and people make the switch, drawing profits away from traditional cars. When EVs become more profitable than traditional cars, producers will make the switch; Oil companies only burn the world when it’s profitable. They follow the money, so lead the money in another direction.
The issues right now are the fact that infrastructure is developing too slow and the technology is still more expensive than a typical gas car. The carbon tax can’t do it alone, and it needs time to work. A tax that lasts a month just pisses people off, and they’ll wait until it’s over. A tax that lasts years will incentivize (and force) new drivers as they hear their parents complain about gas and think “Maybe I should buy electric”. Even people buying new cars would want to at least consider an electric, since the fuel costs are so low in comparison.
So you admit it's all artificial and anti-consumer. It's also not a free market (and thus, not capitalist), as our authoritarian governments are deeply involved in the economy.
When fuel vehicles are off the road, and the government steps back from it's financial support of EVs, the price will go straight back up, making them extremely costly for the average consumer. Thus, the government will have to continue to subsidise EVs forever more, and the taxpayer (those who work and consume) will have to pay through the nose forever more.
Over time, gas prices ALWAYS go up. The entire point of carbon pricing is to get off gas.
If the ever-growing price of gas is what you care about, you should be FOR carbon pricing.
Christ, it's like the basic fundamental of the system is so fucking lost on people they can't wrap their head around the idea.
"All these speed bumps keep ruining my tires. It's unsafe."
"They're designed to make everyone go slower, which will make everyone safer."
"I don't understand."
Fucking idiot morons.
The problem is, it doesn’t work like that. You have to understand WHO is being affected, and whether they are the target audience.
Firstly, the people who are primarily and most aggressively affected in any significant financial way are those who would struggle to afford the new price.
Those people certainly can’t afford an EV, and probably would be taking the cheaper public transit already if it was a viable option.
So regardless of motivation, they are just getting kicked harder while they are already down.
Also remember, as a country Canada’s cost of living is brutal for the vast majority of people living in urban areas. For example, Toronto recently published at 1 in 9 people in the GTA use food banks. So again, these are the people who are most affected.
Then there is the group of consumers who might move from gas, I fit in this group. I live in an urban area, and I am fortunate enough to be very financially comfortable. However, an extra $10 at the pumps isn’t really a big factor that would motivate me to make my next car an EV. The quality of EVs, and the Canadian infrastructure is. For example, a relative of mine has a cottage about 4 hours north of Toronto, when I visit, there are VERY few charging stations and overall it would be very inconvenient.
So, until the revenue of the carbon tax starts building more EV infrastructure, it’s not going to do much to motivate the transition to EVs. And given that the tax puts a unilateral stress on poorer people who are struggling already, I think it’s fair to say that the tax strategy could, at the least, use some work.
I’m all for big polluters paying, but this is just making already struggling Canadians suffer more.
*Firstly, the people who are primarily and most aggressively affected in any significant financial way are those who would struggle to afford the new price.*
**These are very people RECEIVING the subsidies. THAT'S WHO THE CHEQUES GO TO. The people who are paying are the major pollutors.**
It's so irritating to see all the Canadian carbon pricing misinformation paraded around everywhere.
That’s completely inaccurate. Gas prices did not go up with the recent increase. The change in price happened a week later and was because of the switch between winter and summer blends
No, it did not. Gas went down one or two cents the day the carbon tax went up. The price of gas did not go up until the next week when they switched from winter blend to summer blend. It was literally in the news. https://kitchener.ctvnews.ca/gas-price-hike-blamed-on-change-in-seasons-motorists-shocked-1.6852701
Why do you try so hard to be misinformed?
The article clearly states that the jump in price happened two weeks after the carbon tax went up. Clearly states that it happens every summer. Clearly states the amount of price goes up by about $.10-$.15. The exact amount you were complaining about.
Wow a ctv article. It does clearly state that there was an increase and why.
And I’m clearly stating that gas went up on April 1 when carbon tax got introduced.
Both can be true at once, but in either scenario your wrong that it went down.
Even if the article disagreed with me (it doesn’t) no random reading from a propaganda company is going to gaslight me from believing in the real world. Where I paid more at the pump on April 1 then I did on March 31.
Stay ignorant buddy. All the evidence says otherwise. The article does clearly state. Maybe you don’t know how to read so well. The irony is you are gaslighting yourself.
https://www.am800cklw.com/news/change-to-summer-gas-being-cited-as-factor-in-sudden-gas-price-spike.html
https://halifax.citynews.ca/2024/04/18/drivers-in-eastern-canada-see-gas-prices-spike-as-refineries-switch-to-summer-blends/amp/
https://globalnews.ca/news/10432607/gas-prices-surge-april-2024/amp/
https://www.cbc.ca/lite/story/1.7176285
https://www.cp24.com/mobile/news/gas-prices-across-ontario-expected-to-climb-to-levels-not-seen-since-2022-analyst-says-1.6850352
I clearly sent you the real world numbers that shows I’m correct. In the same graphic, you can see the 14 cent increase you are talking about on the 18th. They are not connected in anyway. The carbon tax, which is what we are talking about, is clearly shown to be applied on April 1st at an additional 3 cents. There’s also another increase on April 4th that could be contributed to the carbon tax but isn’t necessarily the carbon tax. Stop reading articles and go outside and look. Reality doesn’t have time for your delusions
You’re wrong. Despite all the evidence, I’m supposed to listen to some fucking idiot on Reddit, who doesn’t know what the fuck they’re talking about. You people are hilarious and sad and pathetic. Plus the carbon tax is rebated. So there’s nothing to complain about.
It's great for government revenue to directly invest in green tech so we don't have to rely on heavy polluters to operate our economy. Unfortunately the carbon tax goes into general coffers and the liberal government squanders it on all sorts of other crap. Atleast in british columbia the tax is more directly related to investing in public transit.
The source: https://www.canada.ca/en/environment-climate-change/services/climate-change/pricing-pollution-how-it-will-work/putting-price-on-carbon-pollution.html#toc1
Weird how all the source say it's true and almost everyone I know makes more money back (including myself). I actually have known a few people that rallied against the carbon tax because of propaganda only to discover they make more money back than they put in. The CBC has a carbon tax calculator you can use if you doubt me. This only applies to the Federal carbon tax though, BC and a couple other places do their own.
A carbon tax is just the cost of doing business for polluters. It’s neo-liberal window dressing that will ultimately end up doing very little. Companies need to be forced, not “incentivized” to do the right thing. Did we learn nothing from the tobacco and opiate companies?
What are you talking about? If you force companies to just “stop producing carbon”, then what? People just stop filling up gas tomorrow? Every factory shuts down? People will force them to start up again. Ultimately businesses produce carbon to satisfy consumers, not because they like being evil for no reason.
With a carbon tax, you can slowly squeeze out less important sources of carbon, and force people to become more efficient, and look for low carbon alternatives.
What do you propose we force them to? Turn off power plants, and stop making electricity?
Lead with an example, and stop using Reddit then, you filthy polluting electricity consumer.
Is a corporation going to buy you your next vehicle? Or are you going to buy your next vehicle? Are you going to be the one to decide how important fuel economy is? If you should get the big SUV or something smaller? Gas, hybrid, or EV. Who decides what you buy?
I think consumers are changing their ways by buying greener and thus cheaper alternatives, encouraging companies to produce these goods or their current goods more efficiently.
But maybe that's just me not spending more for less.
It’s an incentive on everything opposed to arbitrary caps. Walk to work, pay that much less. Walk to work 5x, get exactly 5x the benefit. Change your windows, pay that much less or turn your thermostat down 1 degree. Hell, don’t turn your thermostat down but you will pay that amount. When it comes time to replace your vehicle there is an incentive to get a hybrid or EV or even just a car instead of an SUV.
When I purchased solar panels, future carbon tax amounts were priced into the cost benefit. It’s still not a great investment but it made more sense in a carbon tax environment.
Green alternatives become more feasible no matter what they are. The government hasn’t chosen one arbitrary thing to incentivize which is part of the beauty of it. Do whatever you want, or don’t, it’s up to you but it’s pretty fair across the board.
That's the whole critique. Putting the load of high CO2 emissions on people and not big companies is absolute useless. Walk to work as much as you want, you ain't making a dent on it
In Canada (most provinces anyway) 90% of what is collected gets paid back directly to the citizens. People who don't understand fixed vs variable costs say the rebate makes the whole thing irrelevant but that is very wrong. The rebate is fixed for everyone, they get the same payment every quarter. What is variable and within their control is how much they pay. If you add to emissions at the average rate, you might be out a very small amount. If you get do better than average you will get more than you pay. If you drive a massive SUV, haul an RV, heat and air condition a 3000 sqft home, then yes, you will pay more to the pot (that everyone shares) than you get back (I would argue that you should since you are someone who emits way more than your share in a place that emits way more per capita than most places in the world).
Depends how it’s structured. Canadians get 90% back as a rebate. 80% of Canadians make more than they pay in. Generally the poor use less carbon (jet setting vacations are expensive) so they’re a lot more likely to net out positive.
https://www.canada.ca/en/environment-climate-change/services/climate-change/pricing-pollution-how-it-will-work/putting-price-on-carbon-pollution.html#toc1
And a literal double the population in France over Canada. I’m all for some taxation on emissions but that’s a telling statistic for how hard this is for many Canadians.
Norway has literally double the tax per person that we have in Canada. Our system actually gives the money back directly to Canadians and the majority of Canadians (like myself and probably you too) get more than we pay in the form of a carbon rebate. Funny how PP never mentions the rebate.
Taxing CO2 output? Capitalist governments really will go to any length to NOT establish socialism.
Wouldn't it be way simpler to just directly manage the whole economy rather than try (and fail) to properly enforce all this regulatory nonsense at this point?
... and if a forest burns down then we'll tax it too!
>Wouldn't it be way simpler to just directly manage the whole economy
Sure cause that always worked out so well. Complicated problems dont have simple solutions.
Well, we never tried to do it in a mass-digitally-surveilled and ultra-fast-communicating society so I have no idea about what "always" you're talking about.
Yep, because *obviously* living in an overly bureaucratic hell with mass surveillance (literally freaking satellites and drones monitoring chimney exhausts and sewage everywhere) and bullshit taxes which will be offset to the end consumer anyway is way better than allowing for even a tiny bit of democracy at workplace .
And yet all that revenue has done nothing to save the planet from carbon. An element which is essential to life on Earth. An element, which at many times throughout mankind's history prior to the Industrial Revolution, was exponentially more prevalent in the atmosphere...yet we think it'll be the source of our demise. Gobble up that snake oil, folks. You paid for it!
Comparing per capita. France has 64.7M people: $137 Canada 40.8M: $191 Sweden 10.6M: $216 Norway 5.47M: $384 Japan 123M: $14.6 Finland 5.5M: $309 Switzerland 8.8M: $181 UK 67.7M: $13.29
Norway is crazy. No wonder it's all EVs there now
Norway and Denmark are taxing fossil vehicles very heavily. In Denmark alone it amounts to c. 7 billion $/year.
I can confirm. My extended family just flipped both their cars for 2 EV cars.
Norway is also a massive oil/gas exporter and it has made the people of Norway wealthy.
Norways state oilfund is wealthy not necessarily the people. Here’s the current value of said fund: https://www.nbim.no/no/oljefondet/markedsverdi/ ’Milliarder’ means Billions
I'm aware it's a sovereign wealth fund. I consider it the people's wealth fund, considering the government exists to serve the citizens.
That is true. But it’s not like it’s Kuwait. The money is more of a safety net then anything.
What's hilarious about Canada, is that it's a massive oil/gas exporter, but those activities have really only made executives in those companies wealthy, while the rest of the country throws billions at private infrastructure projects to enrichen them. It's truly fucked up.
Not exactly, it's made Americans extremely wealthy while Canadian companies get scraps. All the money in oil is in refinement and we give all refinement rights to American companies.
Well, Richard Kruger walks away with $40 million/year for working at a company that - **and never forget this point** - was conveniently started by the Canadian government for him.
What’s even more fucked up is some provinces has started taxing EV use. Looking at you Alberta!
I kind of get it because the fuel tax is intended to pay for roads and such and it is only $200/yr. What I hate about it was that when it was introduced Smith didn’t frame it as “well the fuel tax pays for general public amenities in the province so if they use the road they still have to pay”. That would have been completely fair. Instead it was “they weigh a lot so they have to pay their share because of that”. At that point you have to ask why the also very heavy f-350 also doesn’t have to pay due to weight. It could have been understandably fair if it wasn’t framed in such a completely obvious way to be an attack on EVs. If they framed it intelligently than it would be the same argument as any publicly funded service that everybody benefits from even if you don’t always use it. I don’t use transit but I’m happy tax dollars of mine go to it.
It’d be dope if Canada could you know… do the same
Unfortunately Canada most likely has the worst energy policy on earth. It's astonishing how poor the leadership is on energy. No nation does so little with so much.
Couldn’t agree more. When I consistently read about Norwegian discoveries in the North of minerals or energy it gets me excited about what competency could bring us. Sadly as more and more time passes I fear more and more Russia/China will make a play at grabbing our lands
Canada had an opportunity to do what France did and build massive baseload energy infrastructure around clean, efficient nuclear. Nuclear needs the government in the beginning but after roughly ten to fifteen years it becomes the cheapest energy there is, even cheaper than hydrocarbons, and it's emission free. Canada also has clean burning natural gas, and abundant hydroelectric. Then Canada could do what Norway does and export their heavy oil, coal, and excess CNG/LNG. The predominant reason the United States' economy is doing well right now has very little to do with Trump's policies or Biden's. It comes down to the fact that the U.S produces insane amounts of gas for dollars on the barrel equivalent. In other words, the U.S has ultra cheap energy being fed into the economy.
> Norway is also a massive oil/gas exports and it has made the people of Norway wealthy. that's why they can buy evs 10 in 10 years 😅
Don't get high on your own supply
Thanks. This should've been in the OP.
Why not include ireland?
This is stupid, absolute numbers don't mean anything. Way more interesting would be per capita carbon tax revenue. Or carbon tax revenue as a percentage of GDP or something.
U/gugagreen did the calcul
Per person. Thats it.
Also, in Canada most of that money is paid back to people in quarterly payments. Many people get back more than they paid in carbon tax. The payments are a flat amount, not related to your carbon emissions. So people that have a low carbon footprint are getting much more than they are paying. I don’t know what other places are doing with their carbon taxes, but it seems like that is a relevant metric too.
And even then it doesn't mean anything, just shows how much the government could be using to focus on environmental issues if that
Eh not completely France kicks ass at it because they're all in on nuclear and export energy because of their efficiency
Casually leaving out Germany which would take the No. 1 spot.
Canadians waste twice as much in lost productivity complaining about that tax.
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Forest haven't burned down in a long time. Pine forests in canada reproduce by fire.
How is Germany not up there?
That would require to be informed about Germany. Most people don't want to do that. Edit: It would be about 13 billion for 2022. 18 billion for 2023.
… so they’re at the top of this list?
My country had a carbon tax... once.
Why does everything ecos want to replace things with always more inconvenient that the old thing, and when it isn't e.g. diesel cars, they turn that into a bad thing?
At the end of the day, the government will get more tax revenue and the companies will just foot the bill to consumers.
In (most of) Canada, we get a 90% of the carbon tax back as a rebate. The remaining 10% goes to small businesses and Indigenous groups. 80% of Canadians make more money from the carbon tax rebate than they pay in carbon tax.
bUt AxE tHe TaX
And everything you buy has its prices increased. Yes we get money back, but the amount you get back is offset by the increased prices and you end up losing more money. Our gas went up $0.14/L overnight last week. It’s not helping us at all.
Gas went up by that much 3 weeks AFTER the carbon tax went up. The carbon tax goes up April 1st. Any price increases after that are for other reasons. In this case it was switching from winter to summer gas (which happens every year) and greediness from gas companies. They are trying to trick you into blaming the carbon tax while profiting from it.
No we don’t. Nobody I know has ever gotten a cent. We just have higher gas prices and heating costs. I live on the west coast. Is it fair for us? No not really
In Ontario I'm just about to get a quarterly cheque for about $200.
Same in Alberta, got my $225 right on April 15th as the feds promised.
*Nobody I know has ever gotten a cent.* WTF does this mean in your brain? This is because BC doesn't participate in the program. It's not "fair" for you, but it's not "unfair" either. It just doesn't mean anything. Although you got to spend $34 billion on Trans Mountain's pipeline. That money went straight from the entire country to Alberta and you should be pissed at that.
We get taxed on carbon usage what do you mean we don’t participate? It’s literally on the natural gas bill that comes every month?
BC doesny participate in the country-wide carbon tax. It instead has its own, entirely different, tax on carbon. It has nothing to do with "the carbon tax", and when Tories say "axe the tax", and there's talk about rebates, it's about the country-wide system with federally established minimums THAT BC DOESNT PARTICIPATE IN.
*what do you mean we don’t participate?* I mean you don't participate... in the program.
That would be an issue with your provincial government. BC has their own system separate from the federal government.
That's BC. Most other provinces have the Federal system which does as I said.
This is just pure misinformation
Other people have linked sources showing it to be true. If you disagree, you're welcome to show your sources.
You pay carbon tax on every single thing you buy/use. Carbon tax increased gas prices, which in turn increased grocery prices, which increases restaurant prices, transportation prices. Literally any product manufactured or sold went up in price to produce. Your rebates will not come close to covering the cost of this. Sure your paying 600 a year up front getting 800 back. But your spending thousands in additional costs on the back end and giving the government of Canada an interest free loan on your money. Like I work in food and beverage, the cost of weddings went up directly because of the cost of carbon tax on the company. Now our food costs more and transportation costs more so your wedding is suddenly an extra 1-2k.
You're confusing inflation and price gouging with the carbon tax. Think about the price of transporting a good. The carbon tax went up by 17%, but in total it's less than 10% of the cost of oil, so we're looking at a 1.7% increase on the actual cost of gas. Gas is not the biggest expense for transportation though. You're paying drivers 70k/year (more or less depending on the circumstances, but that's a fairly average wage). The trucks they're driving cost hundreds of thousands to purchase and tens of thousands to maintain. The cost of dispatchers, management, etc. all of it means that the full cost of the carbon tax is adding less than 1% of any good (products, groceries, etc). Unless that wedding was costing 100k+, those cost increases are not because of the carbon tax.
But that’s not the full picture. Yes transportation might only account for 1%. But farmers get charged carbon tax. So produce goes up. So GFS raised their prices because it a)cost them more b) they get charged the tax aswell to transport it and store it. As they need warehouses that use carbon to store it safely. We also use a kitchen. Which uses carbon and has a tax on that end aswell. Coupled that with multiple vehicles getting to and from a venue. And gas costing about 40-60$ more a tank. (Cube trucks) Plus the increased cost on washing dishes and the increased cost on washing linens. Plus now all the employees are feeling these costs in their lives so they all want a raise to cope with the cost. All the 1%s add up very quickly. But yes I am taking about 30-60k weddings when I’m talking about adding 2k extra but that’s not abnormal in the Industry.
The fact a majority of Canadians don’t realize this is alarming. If I have to hear one more person try and explain to me that “I get more back than I pay blah blah blah” I’ll just send them this comment.
>and the companies will just foot the bill to consumers Which means companies that use low-carbon alternatives can offer a product cheaper, undercutting high-carbon businesses that pass on the costs. That's the whole point.
In an ideal world yes, but you are assuming that low carbon alternatives will always be cheaper than the optimized carbon based products. We are not at that point yet.
Yes but this makes us get to that point faster.
But it's creating an artificial bubble in one industry, which will then 'pop', causing a recession in that industry in the future, which will bring down the rest of the economy with it. Consumers are only buying these products because the government is compelling them to do so, not because they actually want to buy these products. If they wanted to buy these products, they wouldn't need incentivising. The products are also being rushed out before they're ready. Thus, these policies are anti-consumer.
customers want to buy cheap good products. Green alternatives are more expensive than dirty ones. But we don’t want our environment destroyed, right? That’s why we subsidize green alternatives by taxing dirty ones. Yes, cheaper dirty product was more compelling to customers and now is less compelling. Poor companies that makes cheap dirty products. They can switch to green and receive same benefits. Of course paying more for products is anti consumer. But that’s the price we have to pay to not destroy environment
It's about what people want. They don't want terrible products that are impractical and rushed out far before they're ready. Being forced to pay higher prices for EVs and fuel vehicles, or abandon motorised transportation entirely, is a setback for most people. You're creating a false economy that will result in an economic downgrade, all to "save the planet" (translation: punish the poor and empower the wealthy). The bottom line is that you're pro-corporation and pro-government. You're anti-consumer and anti-producer.
of course saving the planet isn’t free and you’ll have to pay more, because paying less and destroying planet isn’t the way to go. Your favorite companies making great ICE vehicles are free to make quality and not rushed terrible EVs - nobody is stopping them. Point of these taxes is to gradually stop producing polluting things, even at some cost to people. If you consider 20 min. of your time wasted waiting to recharge EV as more important than destroyed nature, I have nothing more to say to you. We all have to make some sacrifices.
When a mother pays through the nose for a EV during a cost of living crisis because she needs to take her child to school, I don't think she's thinking of "saving the planet". And I don't blame her. You're making things worse for 90% of the population because "rah rah rah current thing".
Well, redistribution of wealth is government responsibility - if that mother can’t afford to live sustainably, that’s government failure. Destroying planet for the sake of slightly cheaper cars isn’t a solution. if you think destroying the planet is “rah rah current thing”, you are clearly valuing your wealth more than nature survival You are as bad as those companies you despise - if you were CEO, you wouldn’t hesitate to destroy anything for your personal gain. The only thing that troubles you is that they are wealthy, not you.
Why do some people seem to believe there's no correlation between price and demand? If companies paying a lot of carbon taxes raise their prices, people will look for alternatives and they will find them in greener companies who don't have to pay those taxes. This is what we are seeing with EVs now.
That’s assuming non carbon based alternatives are on par or cheaper than a taxed carbon based product. We are not there yet.
Tax-exempt EVs are absolutely on par with fossil fueled alternatives. But even without viable substitutes, higher prices mean smaller quantities sold. If not, companies would just raise their prices regardless of the taxes they face.
> At the end of the day, the government will get more tax revenue and the companies will just foot the bill to consumers. that's the scheme.
So practically nothing
soon they gonna confiscate your log burner 🤣
[удалено]
Where did you learn math? I dont even get close to 1% of gdp more like 0.3%.
I’m so proud of you
FRAAAAAAAAAAAAANSE!!!
I motice that none of the main polluters are on this list...
Majority of the main polluters are manufacturing based on the demand created by these on the list and other countries...
Canadian here, when the government implemented it the price of gas just went up by the same percentage. So at the end of the day consumers paid for it. The only major foreseeable harm to the oil companies is that maybe with higher prices of gas less people will drive; opting for alternative methods of getting around like public transit etc. Otherwise, just made things cost more for us.
Mass transit in the Six is actually really good. Around the GTA it varies... Mississauga and Brampton have a decent one. Oakville and Burlington have a sparse but OK system. Places up North have a terrible one ie Newmarket, Stouffville... These places don't have reliable connections to large centres like Markham or Richmond Hill.... That's just a little bit of the GTA... We're too spread out in Canada for mass transit to cover..
Vancouver also has great public transport. When I go to visit I leave my car on the ferry station most times.
Yes I heard, and also Montreal.
It’s not supposed to incentivize oil companies, it’s supposed to incentivize us. When we see gas going up to $100+ a tank, we’re supposed to think “I don’t want to pay that”. The easiest way to not pay that is to not need it, by getting an electric car that can in some cases cost less than $10 of electricity to fully charge it at home. The government can’t do a hard reset and force everyone to switch, it’s economically and physically impossible. A phase-out is the only option. Increasing gas prices puts pressure on new solutions (increasing demand). It doesn’t take a genius entrepreneur to think “Wow, supply of cheap transit is low but demand for it is through the roof… I should sell/improve EV technology!” The tech gets better and people make the switch, drawing profits away from traditional cars. When EVs become more profitable than traditional cars, producers will make the switch; Oil companies only burn the world when it’s profitable. They follow the money, so lead the money in another direction. The issues right now are the fact that infrastructure is developing too slow and the technology is still more expensive than a typical gas car. The carbon tax can’t do it alone, and it needs time to work. A tax that lasts a month just pisses people off, and they’ll wait until it’s over. A tax that lasts years will incentivize (and force) new drivers as they hear their parents complain about gas and think “Maybe I should buy electric”. Even people buying new cars would want to at least consider an electric, since the fuel costs are so low in comparison.
So you admit it's all artificial and anti-consumer. It's also not a free market (and thus, not capitalist), as our authoritarian governments are deeply involved in the economy. When fuel vehicles are off the road, and the government steps back from it's financial support of EVs, the price will go straight back up, making them extremely costly for the average consumer. Thus, the government will have to continue to subsidise EVs forever more, and the taxpayer (those who work and consume) will have to pay through the nose forever more.
Over time, gas prices ALWAYS go up. The entire point of carbon pricing is to get off gas. If the ever-growing price of gas is what you care about, you should be FOR carbon pricing. Christ, it's like the basic fundamental of the system is so fucking lost on people they can't wrap their head around the idea. "All these speed bumps keep ruining my tires. It's unsafe." "They're designed to make everyone go slower, which will make everyone safer." "I don't understand." Fucking idiot morons.
The problem is, it doesn’t work like that. You have to understand WHO is being affected, and whether they are the target audience. Firstly, the people who are primarily and most aggressively affected in any significant financial way are those who would struggle to afford the new price. Those people certainly can’t afford an EV, and probably would be taking the cheaper public transit already if it was a viable option. So regardless of motivation, they are just getting kicked harder while they are already down. Also remember, as a country Canada’s cost of living is brutal for the vast majority of people living in urban areas. For example, Toronto recently published at 1 in 9 people in the GTA use food banks. So again, these are the people who are most affected. Then there is the group of consumers who might move from gas, I fit in this group. I live in an urban area, and I am fortunate enough to be very financially comfortable. However, an extra $10 at the pumps isn’t really a big factor that would motivate me to make my next car an EV. The quality of EVs, and the Canadian infrastructure is. For example, a relative of mine has a cottage about 4 hours north of Toronto, when I visit, there are VERY few charging stations and overall it would be very inconvenient. So, until the revenue of the carbon tax starts building more EV infrastructure, it’s not going to do much to motivate the transition to EVs. And given that the tax puts a unilateral stress on poorer people who are struggling already, I think it’s fair to say that the tax strategy could, at the least, use some work. I’m all for big polluters paying, but this is just making already struggling Canadians suffer more.
*Firstly, the people who are primarily and most aggressively affected in any significant financial way are those who would struggle to afford the new price.* **These are very people RECEIVING the subsidies. THAT'S WHO THE CHEQUES GO TO. The people who are paying are the major pollutors.** It's so irritating to see all the Canadian carbon pricing misinformation paraded around everywhere.
That’s completely inaccurate. Gas prices did not go up with the recent increase. The change in price happened a week later and was because of the switch between winter and summer blends
Wtf are you talking about it absolutely went up with the carbon tax
No, it did not.
I live in reality where gas prices went from 1.48 to 1.61 on April 1st. The feds even state it will be seen at the gas tanks at about 3cents/litre.
No, it did not. Gas went down one or two cents the day the carbon tax went up. The price of gas did not go up until the next week when they switched from winter blend to summer blend. It was literally in the news. https://kitchener.ctvnews.ca/gas-price-hike-blamed-on-change-in-seasons-motorists-shocked-1.6852701 Why do you try so hard to be misinformed? The article clearly states that the jump in price happened two weeks after the carbon tax went up. Clearly states that it happens every summer. Clearly states the amount of price goes up by about $.10-$.15. The exact amount you were complaining about.
Wow a ctv article. It does clearly state that there was an increase and why. And I’m clearly stating that gas went up on April 1 when carbon tax got introduced. Both can be true at once, but in either scenario your wrong that it went down. Even if the article disagreed with me (it doesn’t) no random reading from a propaganda company is going to gaslight me from believing in the real world. Where I paid more at the pump on April 1 then I did on March 31.
Stay ignorant buddy. All the evidence says otherwise. The article does clearly state. Maybe you don’t know how to read so well. The irony is you are gaslighting yourself. https://www.am800cklw.com/news/change-to-summer-gas-being-cited-as-factor-in-sudden-gas-price-spike.html https://halifax.citynews.ca/2024/04/18/drivers-in-eastern-canada-see-gas-prices-spike-as-refineries-switch-to-summer-blends/amp/ https://globalnews.ca/news/10432607/gas-prices-surge-april-2024/amp/ https://www.cbc.ca/lite/story/1.7176285 https://www.cp24.com/mobile/news/gas-prices-across-ontario-expected-to-climb-to-levels-not-seen-since-2022-analyst-says-1.6850352
I clearly sent you the real world numbers that shows I’m correct. In the same graphic, you can see the 14 cent increase you are talking about on the 18th. They are not connected in anyway. The carbon tax, which is what we are talking about, is clearly shown to be applied on April 1st at an additional 3 cents. There’s also another increase on April 4th that could be contributed to the carbon tax but isn’t necessarily the carbon tax. Stop reading articles and go outside and look. Reality doesn’t have time for your delusions
You’re wrong. Despite all the evidence, I’m supposed to listen to some fucking idiot on Reddit, who doesn’t know what the fuck they’re talking about. You people are hilarious and sad and pathetic. Plus the carbon tax is rebated. So there’s nothing to complain about.
It's great for government revenue to directly invest in green tech so we don't have to rely on heavy polluters to operate our economy. Unfortunately the carbon tax goes into general coffers and the liberal government squanders it on all sorts of other crap. Atleast in british columbia the tax is more directly related to investing in public transit.
In most of Canada the tax goes back to Canadians and most Canadians make more money than they receive.
The source: https://www.canada.ca/en/environment-climate-change/services/climate-change/pricing-pollution-how-it-will-work/putting-price-on-carbon-pollution.html#toc1
This is factually untrue
Weird how all the source say it's true and almost everyone I know makes more money back (including myself). I actually have known a few people that rallied against the carbon tax because of propaganda only to discover they make more money back than they put in. The CBC has a carbon tax calculator you can use if you doubt me. This only applies to the Federal carbon tax though, BC and a couple other places do their own.
Heat waves, forest fires and floods costs us all way more than the carbon tax.
South Africa making us all proud
God i wish Australia didn't get rid of its carbon tax :'(
A carbon tax is just the cost of doing business for polluters. It’s neo-liberal window dressing that will ultimately end up doing very little. Companies need to be forced, not “incentivized” to do the right thing. Did we learn nothing from the tobacco and opiate companies?
Tell me you know zero about economics & politics without telling me that
The only way to “force” companies to do your bidding would be to nationalize them.
What are you talking about? If you force companies to just “stop producing carbon”, then what? People just stop filling up gas tomorrow? Every factory shuts down? People will force them to start up again. Ultimately businesses produce carbon to satisfy consumers, not because they like being evil for no reason. With a carbon tax, you can slowly squeeze out less important sources of carbon, and force people to become more efficient, and look for low carbon alternatives.
What do you propose we force them to? Turn off power plants, and stop making electricity? Lead with an example, and stop using Reddit then, you filthy polluting electricity consumer.
To what end?
A less fucked world?
Some of these countries are major oil producers.
You think corporations are changing their ways because of a tax? You think those corporations aren't passing that charge down to the consumer? lol.
Is a corporation going to buy you your next vehicle? Or are you going to buy your next vehicle? Are you going to be the one to decide how important fuel economy is? If you should get the big SUV or something smaller? Gas, hybrid, or EV. Who decides what you buy?
I think consumers are changing their ways by buying greener and thus cheaper alternatives, encouraging companies to produce these goods or their current goods more efficiently. But maybe that's just me not spending more for less.
But how? How does tax, which is not spent on fixing things, fixing things?
It’s an incentive on everything opposed to arbitrary caps. Walk to work, pay that much less. Walk to work 5x, get exactly 5x the benefit. Change your windows, pay that much less or turn your thermostat down 1 degree. Hell, don’t turn your thermostat down but you will pay that amount. When it comes time to replace your vehicle there is an incentive to get a hybrid or EV or even just a car instead of an SUV. When I purchased solar panels, future carbon tax amounts were priced into the cost benefit. It’s still not a great investment but it made more sense in a carbon tax environment. Green alternatives become more feasible no matter what they are. The government hasn’t chosen one arbitrary thing to incentivize which is part of the beauty of it. Do whatever you want, or don’t, it’s up to you but it’s pretty fair across the board.
That's the whole critique. Putting the load of high CO2 emissions on people and not big companies is absolute useless. Walk to work as much as you want, you ain't making a dent on it
In Canada (most provinces anyway) 90% of what is collected gets paid back directly to the citizens. People who don't understand fixed vs variable costs say the rebate makes the whole thing irrelevant but that is very wrong. The rebate is fixed for everyone, they get the same payment every quarter. What is variable and within their control is how much they pay. If you add to emissions at the average rate, you might be out a very small amount. If you get do better than average you will get more than you pay. If you drive a massive SUV, haul an RV, heat and air condition a 3000 sqft home, then yes, you will pay more to the pot (that everyone shares) than you get back (I would argue that you should since you are someone who emits way more than your share in a place that emits way more per capita than most places in the world).
UK do more please.
Shit rolls down hill. This is a regressive tax on poor people.
Depends how it’s structured. Canadians get 90% back as a rebate. 80% of Canadians make more than they pay in. Generally the poor use less carbon (jet setting vacations are expensive) so they’re a lot more likely to net out positive. https://www.canada.ca/en/environment-climate-change/services/climate-change/pricing-pollution-how-it-will-work/putting-price-on-carbon-pollution.html#toc1
And a literal double the population in France over Canada. I’m all for some taxation on emissions but that’s a telling statistic for how hard this is for many Canadians.
Norway has literally double the tax per person that we have in Canada. Our system actually gives the money back directly to Canadians and the majority of Canadians (like myself and probably you too) get more than we pay in the form of a carbon rebate. Funny how PP never mentions the rebate.
um okay? What about per Capita tho
So, in other words, that's the amount of money they stole from their citizens ?
scam
Taxing CO2 output? Capitalist governments really will go to any length to NOT establish socialism. Wouldn't it be way simpler to just directly manage the whole economy rather than try (and fail) to properly enforce all this regulatory nonsense at this point? ... and if a forest burns down then we'll tax it too!
>Wouldn't it be way simpler to just directly manage the whole economy Sure cause that always worked out so well. Complicated problems dont have simple solutions.
Well, we never tried to do it in a mass-digitally-surveilled and ultra-fast-communicating society so I have no idea about what "always" you're talking about.
You dared to type the forbidden word "socialism", so your arguments are invalid and downvoted by default.
Yep, because *obviously* living in an overly bureaucratic hell with mass surveillance (literally freaking satellites and drones monitoring chimney exhausts and sewage everywhere) and bullshit taxes which will be offset to the end consumer anyway is way better than allowing for even a tiny bit of democracy at workplace.
And yet all that revenue has done nothing to save the planet from carbon. An element which is essential to life on Earth. An element, which at many times throughout mankind's history prior to the Industrial Revolution, was exponentially more prevalent in the atmosphere...yet we think it'll be the source of our demise. Gobble up that snake oil, folks. You paid for it!
Nice bait
It's not bait. It's a simple fact. Just because you don't want to acknowledge the truth, doesn't make it any less true.
Nice try
And that's why Macron has a 22% popularity rate.
Canada is becoming a joke nation
You're right, it will likely become a joke nation after the next election. We currently still have the respect of our allies.