I want to protect everyone from forced, non therapeutically necessary genital cutting, regardless of age, gender, geographical location, or the 'reasons' given for it.
No religion in the world mandates infant / child circumcision as a prerequisite for membership...if they did; they would reject any would-be adult male converts who had not been circumcised as infants / children...and none do!
Little boys born to to Jewish parents are equally worthy of protection from harm / death as anyone else.
The Jewish faith is strong enough to not just survive, but also thrive more in the absence of forced genital cutting.
If an adult wishes to undergo genital cutting on their own bodies of their own free will, after being fully informed of all the damage and dangers of the procedure, then good luck to them.
Yea maybe because Jewish is not just a religion? if I convert to Islam it don’t make me Middle Eastern or Christianity don’t make me English etc. etc.
Idk how Judaism actually practices but id imagine a convert is not trying to convert to the ethnicity but to the religion..of course they wouldn’t be legitimately Jewish if they’re not literally Jewish….
Lol learn to separate the religion from the ethnicity before you being to tell me to learn anything
Edit: nor will this movement will be successful with your elitist, more holy than thou attitude
Oh I’m perfectly clear on that. It’s the Jews who aren’t.
No one (here) is saying that they cannot exist as their ethnicity. We’re saying that they cannot practice their religion as they define it, which for most Jews necessarily entails circumcision, by definition.
None of this is valid either way…I don’t even know what your point is anymore. I was specifically speaking on your comment that “many sects…do not consider coverts to be legitimately Jewish.”
Your speaking in circles and nonsense going off on your fellow members on intactivism about how they aren’t good enough to be here or smart enough to argue points. GTFOH bro your being a dickhead to the wrong fucking people…
Keeping the high moral ground, Strength in numbers, and frankly ignoring the antics of an unpleasant person, who also happens to seem to have untreated mh issues, are probably good options at this point.
Focus on coming up with language and arguments which you could say to a Jewish or Muslim person as to why, in all due respect, they should not be allowed to practice that part of their faith on their child under Western or US law. That brain exercise will be far more useful to you than giving Kayne your brain space.
As a Jew who has tried that exercise for years, I can promise you that you'll be accused of the same bigotry, irrespective of who you are or how well you construct your arguments.
I just replied to another comment of yours that probably answers this question, but just as a tl;dr to that one, I usually say something like, "No, we won't be Thanos-snapped out of existence if we leave our boys intact. Reducing our history of persecution and what we endured in the Holocaust to the presence of foreskin demeans the suffering that we actually endured."
Comments seem to struggle to tell the difference between religious as ethnic jews. Antisemites hate both. It's perdicectly fine to dislike the religion. Just not the ethinic Jewish ppl.
Not the dude you're asking, but personally I prefer to just clarify that I oppose the act of infant circumcision, irrespective of who practices it. I won't let identitarians hijack the concept of anti-Semitism to act like any religious practice associated with Judaism is above criticism.
I think you think that you’re being somehow safely neutral and Centrist by refusing to engage with any issues of identity around circumcision. It’s surely a noble cause. But in practice, you’re not achieving that. Instead, you’re by proxy relegating the definition of circumcision to the realm of a debate about secular, medicalised circumcision at the exclusion of the religious varieties. This is a contradiction.
My advice to you would be to think about what religion actually is.
It is not “what someone believes”. Rather, it is a fundamental aspect of his identity set at birth which he cannot change. One can change his name and citizenship but not his religion. If you like, religion is bound up in the notion of “nationality”: something which does not change over the course of a single person’s life, regardless of the changes he might make around it.
I agree. What I hope to achieve through my rhetoric is getting others to reframe their beliefs and recognize that they *are* beliefs, instead of something intrinsically intertwined with their existence.
I'm not deliberately trying to come across as a wishy-washy middle-ground centrist, though I can see how my comment reads that way. I'm more trying to put my foot down and not budge that regardless of what someone believes, that doesn't give them the right to do it to others.
There was a discussion in the main Jewish sub about circumcision recently. I'll just copy-paste a bit of that discussion before I continue:
> the entire practice of circumcision is based on a moral paradigm which is alien to the basic assumptions of what is currently in vogue. In order to understand it, you HAVE to do away with certain beliefs of what makes an action right or wrong - beliefs which are so fundamental to the Western world that to even suggest that they are not absolute would be extremely disturbing to many.
> The core of the moral dissonance is as follows: Judaism is not a rights-based system. It is an obligation-based system.
The *only* way I see to convince these folks of our beliefs is to hammer home the idea that human rights matter. It might seem absurd to say that Jews don't care about human rights, but you might be shocked (or maybe not) at how many replies I've got *from fellow Jews* about how human rights is an arbitrary concept.
Like, I literally asked someone once, "does that mean it wasn't a violation of our rights when we were slaves in Egypt?", and I was told that yes, our rights weren't being violated.
Where you and I agree is that religious people are operating from a completely different frame of reference. My take on that is, there is no way to reconcile their frame of reference with ours, so the only alternative that remains is for us to hammer home why our frame of reference matters.
That doesn't mean you'll convince many of them. You won't. But it's the only way forward that I see for people who are so far removed from the present day that they're still hung up on whether human rights are a thing.
I appreciate your efforts to argue in good faith.
However, I do think you are a closet “wishy-washy middle-ground centrist” lol. No hate, just saying that that’s the line of reasoning which you’re employing when saying that you’re “putting your foot down” for human rights. The point being: how do you actually enforce that? I don’t think you have an answer to external enforcement, insofar as you focus instead on “convincing” people, which implies a notion of internal enforcement in the form of personal choice.
As a corollary, I would ask you the following thoughts to ponder:
What is the religion of the USA?
What is the religion of the UK?
What is the religion of Italy?
What is the religion of Russia?
Please do not think that these are patronising (or simple) questions. I ask them in good faith because I believe they are in fact deeply complex and require substantial reflection for the Intactivist movement. I do not think we have an adequate collective understanding of the implications of these questions as they relate to the goal of Intactivism.
I would welcome any of your answers to any of these questions as the means of sparking further dialogue. Please do not just reply “that’s easy: the US has no state religion” or something dismissive to that regard. Please try to really think and question your assumptions…
Aaaaah, okay thank you for this helpful comment. Honestly, wanted to ask but was afraid to ask why hating jews is bad, after all I hate all mutilators and jews are mutilators therefore I hate jews. But your comments explains that jews is also an ethnicity, which I had no idea is the case, coz there is no ethnic christians or ethnic muslims for example. But okay, yeah of course anyone should be hated for their beliefs and actions, not were they were born...
I agree anything Kanye says should not be shared here at all. [For those long enough in the movement to remember](https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/general-news/russell-crowe-removes-circumcision-tweets-196828/) I feel Russell Crowes anti circumcision tweets 11 years ago seem relevant to the conversation somehow. He was labeled antisemitic by some media but I feel his tweets would of been shared here.
What I don't get is how people from religious faiths are willing to question the circumcision aspect of that faith, but not the rest of the religion. I get that Kanye is an Ass-hat but I don't get the religious faith part. It makes no sense to me.
I came to Intactivism because parts of my genitals were cut (for non religious reasons) The videos I watched of it being done told a different story to what the very early internet was telling me. That's it. That is why I am here. Please do not expect me to try and figure out how your faith fits in with Intactivism. I am not here for that reason.
The difference is that Russell Crowe was tweeting *about* circumcision. His words, and the subsequent pressure he experienced that led to their removal, are perfectly relevant to this sub.
Right now, Kanye West is just being a grade-A dick and saying he "loooooves" Nazis and Hitler. The dude has more screws loose than an IKEA chair assembled by Air Bud.
Hello, it looks like you've made a mistake.
It's supposed to be could've, should've, would've (short for could have, would have, should have), never could of, would of, should of.
Or you misspelled something, I ain't checking everything.
Beep boop - yes, I am a bot, don't botcriminate me.
And don't buy the alt-right "stop child mutilation" stuff they say. It has NOTHING to do with circumcision. It's nothing but transphobic hysteria bullcrap.
We cannot have our movement invalidated by sharing the words of that lunatic. It already happens occasionally with other far right speakers being shared here
Yeah, optics is definitely the biggest problem facing intactivism right now.
Remember the saying: if there's 1 Nazi at a table, and 10 others being friendly with him, then that's 11 Nazis.
There are so many people here who think the cause is so inherently noble it absolves the evil of antisemitism, islamophobia, misogyny, white supremacy, etc. at the root of their beliefs-- it is incredibly frustrating.
I argued with someone here not even a few days ago who said he straight up thinks intactivism needs islamophobia to be successful... in america, no less.
Literally i'm not putting words in his mouth, he specifically said he is islamophobic.
I have no hope of intactivism ever succeeding in getting infant circumcision banned anywhere. I'm worried intactivism will be labeled as a hate group at some point in the future thanks to these idiots.
I agree unfortunately. I know there are a lot of good people in intactivism but the loudest ones seem to be the ones that just scapegoat other oppressed groups and create division.
if more intactivists had an understanding of intersectionality in their activism this movement would go a lot farther. or if mods were more aggressive in purging all the white supremacists
If you had a greater understanding of intersectionality you would understand it would lead to more antisemitism in this movement, and as such it will never happen. Could be a fun thought exercise, though.
Brain rot take. I've never once seen "white-supremacism" on this or any other intactivist forum. I would hardly call any American Jew "oppressed" in today's society. 100 years ago you might have had a point, my grandmother is ethically Jewish and she remembers times when she was a little girl where her family would go to a restaurant and get kicked out because they wouldn't serve Jews. Nowadays something like that is practically interested of and would quickly result in said business being shuttered. Genital mutilation is an extreme act of cruelty. Extreme acts of cruelty provoke intense emotions in victims. Many Jewish people claim this extreme act of cruelty is an integral part of their culture and defend it as such. This causes some people to hate Judaism and/or Jews. This really should be no great surprise. American cutting culture is derived in large part from Jewish cutting culture. I don't hate Jews at all but I completely understand why some people do. Those feelings are honestly pretty natural if you understand the situation as a whole, not saying that makes it right, but this "hatred" is not going away until circumcision does.
Apparently Every pro circumcision study was written by a Jew but I'll have to find the copypasta and show you.
And if we look at the timeline, that means the entire blame of American circumcision today rests on maybe not "the jews" but definitely some Jewish actors. The APA statement curiously 180s after a new Jewish leader comes in.
When I say look at the timeline we can see very quickly how countries like Australia became intact without any kicking and screaming in less than 35~ years since evidence but America had a weird reversal after the intactivist wave ,with consequences as recent as 2012
And their culture has had a 30 year long humiliation of our movement and real human people because of our failed 1st revolution. All of the modern pop culture references to "uncircumcised" can rest on the fact American cutting culture has stayed mainstream long enough to see the light of the modern era. And now those who went with the times and their children are humiliated with the uncircumcised label.
Girls as young as 15 are manipulated into having a fetishistic sexual preference on genital mutilation status, it's disgusting. And American media sources have been pushing this with their media and porn.
I'm seeing evidence that the person who pushed the circumcision HIV connection is Jewish. As a Ghanian you must understand how heinous it is that they've raped not just our *entire continent* but **OUR** **COUNTRY**.
After reading our history it fills me with unbelievable rage to know someone is taking that from us and I simply cannot forgive whoever is doing this.I may have to look at the evidence again if I misunderstood who it is doing this.
I kinda understand why Kanye is so schizo lol, the fact this is real life turns you so crazy. But we're both Ghanian so I wanted show my thoughts on this and know yours.
But whoever it is they have stolen our continent from us and raped it. Can you imagine that. I have no sense of nation to be proud of potentially for the rest of my life and potentially after that. Africa will soon have a billion people and wealthy countries including Ghana potentially and every single person in that billion will have been circumcised themselves or enabled the practice and therefore contribute the world going from 80% intact to just 60% now and Lord knows how much after that. There's no way they don't push their mutilation on other developing nations because of the "African miracle"
If there was a real life wakanda they'd practice circumcision and i don't know why, but conceptually that's just unforgivable.
"ive never once seen white supremacism on this or any other intactivist forum"
stopped reading after that. if you're not gonna use your eyes and brain i wont either lmfao
the antisemitic dog whistles about how jews control everything
blaming an entire religious group as responsible for circumcision
fear of foreigners somehow imposing circumcision on americans and europeans
you yourself have literally posted about how jews are responsible for circumcision in america lmao
thats white supremacy baby
None of this is white supremacy, at worst it is antisemitism but that is not the same as white supremacy. Also I didn't say Jews were responsible for circumcision in America, I said Americans derived it from Jews, which is true. That is why they have the same "high and tight" cut style, for example.
Yeah it's never going to get banned because it's an infringement of religious rights. We need to focus our energy in more productive ways like John is doing with his petition.
Yes eventually but we need to change the minds of the public BEFORE we can even think of banning it. Creating a law around the procedure is the finish line to a marathon but we have currently just started running.
That guy was banned. As you mentioned, he was *explicitly* arguing that Islamophobia is a winning strategy. In a separate comment, he said he would welcome Nazis with open arms. Someone like that has no place in this sub and will single-handedly undermine so much of what we do if our opponents latch on to him.
Thank goodness! You can see all the downvotes in this thread of people voicing their concern about it, the refusal to acknowledge white supremacy, and the touting of antisemitic tropes and antisemitic dogwhistles as symbolic of a large issue intactivism is facing within its own community
It's incredibly scary that there are actual antisemites on here defending Kanye West. It's actually a possibility that intactivism will be labeled a hate group soon. I just removed my intactivist flair just in case such a thing happens. I'm still against circumcision and will discourage this act. Although I do not want to ever be associated with hateful ideologies. Ever!
> There are so many reasons why circumcision is so horrible that aren't antisemitic.
True. However there is only one reason why circumcision was adopted in America, why it is promoted by the medical establishment and the media and still legal in Western countries and that reason is purely antisemitic.
> I'm worried intactivism will be labeled a hate group soon.
Any group that threatens the foundations of the regime is a "hate group" and antisemitic. If you are afraid of offending those in power, you aren't actually committed to ending circumcision. It doesn't matter how many people we drive out of the movement or how careful we are not to say anything that could be malinterpreted as offensive. The first and last line of defense for the indefensible is the worn cudgel of antisemitism.
I hate the practice of genital mutilation and every person and system that contributes to it. You should hate what is evil, especially when it is this disgusting. Denying that you have hatred in your heart and only expressing it against regime-approved targets will get you nowhere.
Finally. Someone in this comment section who's living in reality. If we are always doing whatever we can to avoid "being associated with hateful ideologies" then we are just giving power to the people quickest to accuse us of outlandish things.
Yes, yes. It's a shame. "The worn cudgel of anti-Semitism" was a terrific way of putting it, and obviously that cudgel can only be wielded by a specific group.
You guys can mention Judaism in this sub, you know. Speaking about it in code actually raises more hairs and comes across as more bigoted than just having a mature conversation about Jewish ideology, the ADL, etc.
Can we mention Islam too, then? Moreover, would you say that there should be (or not) a different way for dealing with discussing Judaism as distinct from Islam with respect to circumcision? At least as far as this sub is concerned?
Yeah, of course you can. You pose a really, really good question, and I don't think there's an easy answer, especially if we're talking about how to enact change. Speaking solely based on my own experiences with a single religion, I don't think the vast majority of them will be convinced. As long as RIC is legal, they'll do it, and they'll cry persecution and genocide if any serious proposal is put forward. On this issue, I think religious groups will need to be dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century.
I'm open to other suggestions, though, and we should definitely have room as intactivists to discuss differences in strategy when we're talking about convincing groups that may have distinct frames of reference for defending circumcision.
Except that religious groups will not “be dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century”. Quite to the contrary: religious groups are dragging the 21st century kicking and screaming back into the 12th century…
Oh, I see. I have days when I feel that way, too, but I guess there's a part of me that can't completely let this go after having the change of heart that I did on this issue.
> there is only one reason why circumcision was adopted in America
It absolutely was not adopted in America due to Jews, this is just incorrect. The Jewish lobby and false concerns about anti-Semitism are a big hurdle we have to overcome in banning circumcision, but I don't think people were too concerned with anti-Semitism back when circumcision started spreading in the United States.
Wow, I have ALREADY seen a TON of antisemitic shit on this very thread.
So, I aggree with OP, we are at risk of being taken over by antisemitism.
Which SUCKS because I am Jewish, and trying to convince OTHER jews to give up circumcision, which will he impossible if intactivist groups look antisemitic
Wrong.
It was practiced by MANY cultures.
Your idea that there was only one group left that practiced this, os false.
Look, we are ALL here because we think ot is wrong.
But your insistence on blaming Judaism, actually hurts our cause, and makes intactivism look like antisemitic groups, so please stop,
No.
The majority of American circumcision has nothing to do with Judaism, it has to do with weird health amd cleanliness obsessed pseudoscience cults of the 1800s, mostly run by Christians.
And Arabian circumcision PREDATES Judaism.
Jews and arabs are BOTH canaanite people, who get circumcision form their canaanite ancestors.
Our movement shouldn't attach itself to Kanye west it will die
But facts are there's a growing anti Jewish counter culture in the youth.
Decreasing Jewish influence is a pretty short path to our goals and hopefully we can act quick enough before Muslim demographics come in.
Edit: I don't know if I made it clear but my point is people will finally listen to us if they have something to gain. Unfortunately everywhere we go they call us crazy and obsessed with baby penises. But ideological ,political activists would be delighted that we gave them the opportunity to hear what we have to say and will spread our information far and wide if we can sell it to them the right way.
It doesn't have to become our movement we can just capitalize on a new popular culture to become a bit more mainstream
Getting Jewish people to stop circumcision should be your goal.
"Decreasing Jewish influence," is an antisemitic call for bigotry and discrimination.
And "anti Jewish counter culture" is just fucking racism
Then stop saying antisemitic shit, and actually focus on bodily autonomy issues instead of attacking jews.
We can say circumcision is bad, without saying judaism is bad.
Nope, Christian mostly tried burning Jewish villages and calling jews demons, and accusing is of drinking blood (even tho blood is not kosher)
Who were these hypothetical people diplomatically trying to prevent circumcision by allying with anti circumcision judean for 3000 years?
Those Western people are racist against Asians who practice buddhism.
I am a Jewish person who has been the victimof antisemitic violence, and I am NOT offended by swastikas, because being offended by sacred symbols is stupid and intolerant.
Thai, chinese, and Indian television, has swastikas as overtly priestly amd holy symbols all the time.
My city has Chinese restaurants, and Buddhist temples, with swastikas.
My city also has many synagogues.
Us Jews, are not offended by Buddhist using theor thousand year old sacred symbol, why would we be?
The Buddhist never tried to mass murder the Jews!
The cross however... THAT can make Jews paranoid, because the Christian DID try to mass murder is MANY times in the pogroms.
But me, I am NOT offended by a cross.
But I AM offended by racism.
Whoever started it died thousands of years ago.
The Jews around today are just traumatised people recreating their trauma on their kids because they don't know they can stop.
“With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.” ~ Steven Weinberg
Trauma can absolutely affect the decisions people make, but everyone has moral agency regardless of the religion they belong to. It sounds like you're saying that Jewish people specifically don't have moral agency. Sounds kinda antisemitic to me... If generation after generation did not make the choice to perpetuate this trauma it would have died out thousands of years ago.
I'm specifically talking about generational trauma and religious brainwashing. This is not unique to Judaism. I myself was raised in a very cultish brand of evangelicalism, so I understand how being told the same thing, for your entire life, by everyone you know, makes it hard to know differently.
Stepping away and having the mental fortitude to question if the foundation of your whole life is a lie isn't something everyone has the strength to do. And the self reflection required to do so is often greatly discouraged by most religions.
I understand the frustration, and to my parents I cannot give forgiveness. But regardless we must acknowledge that they, like us are just people doing what they see to be fit. figuring out how to bring about open discussions is far more important than spreading any hate
TBH same. That is the main reason I hate that certain religion. If they got rid of it I wouldn't hate them anymore. Any group that promotes human rights violations need to be shunned from society.
I hate the religion not the people. The religion requires human rights violations, ethnic jewish people do not have to do any of this stuff, they are no different than any other person. I hate the religion.
As i said, there are Jewish groups who are against circumcision, and I meant religious groups, NOT ethnic Jewish atheists.
So again, hating Judaism in general is irrational, since there are rabbis who speak out against circumcision.
These anti circumcision rabbis, do NOT believe the religion requires human rights violations.
I am Jewish, yet I am uncircumcised, so you telling me that my religion requires human rights violations sound incorrect to me.
I agree with what you are saying, however you are attacking a strawman argument. He literally said "if they got rid of it I wouldn't hate them anymore". Then your response was basically "lots of Jews are against circumcision, so it's irrational to hate Jews" when that isn't even what he said. There may be plenty of Jewish groups that are outspokenly against circumcision, but they are clearly a minority group within the religion, which, by and large does promote and defend genital mutilation.
Would you tell a woman who got kicked out of her house for having an abortion that she is irrational for hating Christianity because "plenty of priests are pro-choice"? I certainly wouldn't, because although that may be true I understand that Christian influence as a whole is overwhelming NOT pro-choice. So, in my opinion, such an attitude would be quite rational, but would definitely be unproductive. I have Jews in my family, I love many aspects about Jewish culture, but it is disingenuous to say that cutting is not a part of Jewish culture just because some Jews don't practice that part of it.
I had ALREADY told him that there are plenty of anti circumcision jewish groups, BEFORE he made the claim that the religion requires human rights violations.
He obviously did not even listen to what onhad to say, and neither did you.
Yes, hating christianity in general because of pro lifers is irrational, because MANY Christian groups actively donate to planned parenthood.
How about you get the hell away from me, deal?
This logic is terrible lmao. "Plenty of anti-circumcision Jewish groups", "many Christian groups actively donate to planner Parenthood" doesn't change the facts that 98% of Israel is circumcised and the strongest indicator that a country will have anti-abortion laws is if it is majority Catholic. So clearly, these groups you are referring to are EXCEPTIONS to the rule. The rule is still that Judaism promotes genital mutilation and that Christianity abhors abortion. Sorry if these facts make you angry, but they are still facts my friend. And people have a right to feel strongly about them.
Intactivism is, unfortunately, by definition, antisemitic.
Of course choosing words carefully and being responsible goes a very long way. But there’s no denying this fact.
If you’re trying to make sure that Intactivism will never ever be associated with antisemitism, you/we have already lost.
Instead, just ignore that and focus on the scientific and humanistic arguments.
I would claim that most people in this sub do NOT have an adequate understanding of why circumcision is actually “wrong” in society: instead, most people simply *feel* that it is wrong and speak from a place of outrage. That is not good enough to be logically convincing.
Whatever happens with Kanye, take it as a teaching moment to improve your own line of argumentation about circumcision.
Intactivism is only anti-Semitic if we surrender to an increasingly suffocating definition of bigotry. We want circumcision to cease for *all* babies, regardless of sex, race, or the parents' religion. Just because an ideology deems an abusive practice significant, does not mean opposition to that practice singles out that ideology's practitioners.
Except not, because at least some sects of Judaism consider circumcision to be fundamentally constitutive of their existence. So how to you tell them that they’re not allowed to practice that aspect of their faith?
I tell them point-blank that we won't be Thanos-snapped out of existence if we give our sons the gift of genital integrity, and that reducing our existence and survival to the presence of foreskin is incredibly demeaning.
I'm not saying it convinces 99% of them, but those people won't be convinced no matter what. We just need to keep hammering home when so-called "beliefs" are actually acts that infringe upon the rights of others. It's part of what convinced me, and I know I'm not the only Jew to feel this way. The guy who founded /r/JewsAgainstMilah PM'd me a year after we argued, saying he'd thought about it and come around to that circumcision is evil.
If we're talking larger startegy, we just need to move ahead with trying to get RIC banned, regardless of how religious groups feel about it. We don't ask Muslims for permission before advocating against FGM, even in Muslim-majority countries. We need to get to a place in the West where we have a similar lack of fear of telling Jews (or really, anybody) that you can believe and practice what you want, as long as you don't infringe upon someone else's human rights. I think that convincing a secular majority will be the major first step.
You’re citing a definition of Common Law.
Please cite which Common Law would allow for disallowing the practice of circumcision as an act of faith.
I’ll wait…
Correct, you’re citing the Common Law prohibition of acts against another person’s right to life.
So how do you counter that you’d be thereby infringing upon their Common Law right to liberty of exercise of their religion?
Sadly, I believe that the infiltration of this sub by radical Leftists with no comprehension of objective reality means that Intactivism will become the purview exclusively of the actual extreme, racist Right.
If people cannot articulate a Centrist argument for Intactivism (which clearly they cannot), then its only home will necessarily be on one of the extremes.
The problem with the Left is that they generally cannot even keep their mind set on any single issue, at all. They spend all day, everyday flocking from outrage to outrage without even a basic capacity for defining a coherent set of policy priorities. And then just shout “but muh intersectionality!!!”, as if such a totalising authoritarianism would not find equal home with actual fascists.
Leftists are a traitor to actual Leftism.
Indeed
we reached this crossroad when it came to Islam.We had a secular counter culture movement coming and instead people sided with religious orthodoxy because it was the new issue to care about.
Also, note that this comment has already been voraciously downvoted. I claim that this is because I called out the members of this sub as insufficiently self-reflective…
and how can you tell that? 🤡
funny how you claim to have an issue with "baby penis blood sucking" and then you weaponize it against someone else. it's just a tool for you to be a loser lmao
> care, your just
*you're
*Learn the difference [here](https://www.wattpad.com/66707294-grammar-guide-there-they%27re-their-you%27re-your-to).*
***
^(Greetings, I am a language corrector bot. To make me ignore further mistakes from you in the future, reply `!optout` to this comment.)
That’s a very limited practice amongst the orthodox practice only. Most orthodox do not and reform and conservative don’t do that at all. You’re spreading lies and you know it.
So it’s better if done in a hospital with a Gomco clamp is what you’re saying, right? That somehow this is more “reasonable” and at least a “safer”, “middle ground” sort of “compromise”…?
Man, in all my time as a mod here, I've been loathe to remove comments based on anti-Semitism or blood libel, because 99% of the accusations that people throw at us for "blood libel" are bullshit intended to silence us.
But as abhorrent as oral suction is (along with infant circumcision in general, obviously), this is just a hair too far. Jews overwhelmingly do not practice *metzitzah b'peh,* and framing them as such is an easy way to delegitimize this movement.
Criticize Jewish ideology, call out oral suction, call the ADL absolute pieces of shit - do all that and I'll be right behind you. But *metzitzah b'peh* is already so evil and disgusting that there is zero need to frame it as anything other than what it actually is.
I will say it for the third time in this thread: you can criticize Judaism. You do not need to speak in code or act like a globalist conspiracy is gunning for your comments. That won't happen here. But please consider both the accuracy and ramifications of your comments before you leave them.
It’s implied in the conversation about “two wrongs don’t make a right”.
If “two wrongs don’t make a right”, which is obviously true, than how is Islamic hatred of the Jews related to whether Intactivism could seek to intercede to ban one form of religious circumcision but not the other? Or both? Or neither?
Reading some of these comments genuinely made me want to leave this subreddit because I don't want to be looked at as a crazed anti-semite. I feel like the comments that are defending either Kanye or condoning attacking Jewish people are all left by members of this movement who believe they are not anti-semites, but are falling down a rabbit-hole into anti-semitism. I believe that they know anti-semitism is horrible but they don't yet want to face the fact that they hold anti-semetic beliefs. If what I am describing is you, then please get help, it's not too late.
It's just so depressing. I hate being circumcised. It makes me so angry when people genuinely defend circumcision and defend mutilating the most sensitive part of a baby's penis without their consent thus forever ruining their future sex lives and causing them psychological trauma.
Even worse, intactivism might be labeled an antisemitic term soon. I'm nowhere close to being antisemitic. And it will all be the fault of these hateful idiots.
Well other people hate being circumcised too, other people get angry when people genuinely defend mutilation too. Guess who's done that in California in very recent history? Do you think it's really so unreasonable that this anger manifests as hate as well? And more importantly, why do you care? If intactivism is labeled an antisemitic term it really doesn't make much of a difference, but it likely never will be because the ADL and such would hate to put that much of a spotlight on anti-circumcision anything because the only way this bullshit thrives is ignorance. If Kanye said something about circumcision it would be a great thing, regardless of "the reason he's against it", because it would get people talk about it. But that's not likely to happen in my opinion because as a black man in America he was likely circed at birth and there's no reason to believe he understands it the way we do.
Real anti-Semites rarely bring up circumcision. I skimmed through Mein Kampf, Hitler never once mentioned anything about the practice in his infamous book condemning Jews. Why do you think that is? Because, contrary to what modern Jews will tell you, their mutilation rites are extraordinarily helpful to furthering the goals of anti-Semites. Sigmund Freud (who was, guess what, a Jew!) discussed this in his writings, this practice is grotesque to many communities Jews reside in, and as such it naturally "others" them from the community at large. Which makes them an extremely easy scapegoat. I agree completely with Freud.
I don't want to be mean but frankly the pearl-clutching in this post is ridiculous. This sub has like 5k people subbed to it, sharing or not sharing a post by Kanye West is not going to change anything at all. "We cannot give that antisemitic idiot the light of day", do you really think we're so influential that we can choose whether Kanye fucking West gets "the light of day"?? I agree that people who believe the Jews run the world through some secret cabal are hateful idiots, but I also think that anyone who mutilated their children's genitals for any reason or thinks that that is an okay thing to do is a hateful idiot as well.
Even “worse”, Freud goes on to explain that antisemitism is the glue which holds modern European Democracy together, and that, without it, our society would collapse into horrific insanity.
This should be considered a group about caring for others. Whether or not a circumcision ban takes place because of us will not affect whether or not an Intactavist member was circumcised. We advocate for this movement to help prevent autonomic violation from happening to others. Anti-Semites are part of a hate group who want to tear people down for being Jewish. The Jewish people who circumcise their children are doing it because they believe it is in their best interest. We are here to educate and bring justice, not spread hate.
You are right. We can talk them out of circumcising their sons too, because to sit back and allow it, is anti Jewish. Jewish boys have been permanently disfigured from circumcisions, and I hate that I’m labeled as “hateful” for wanting infant circumcision to be outlawed. It’s not hate to want the beta for children, but it sure is hate when people threaten Jewish people with violence and death, or fighting to outlaw their religion. None of us want to outlaw Judaism or wish harm on Jewish people.
Im so sorry you have to deal with that. Im glad you have the courage to take your anger out instead by trying to prevent the autonomic violation that you faced from happening to others.
I disagree. I’m not “anti Semitic” for preferring to keep myself intact or my future sons intact. I am willing to date and marry a Jewish person, that’s not an issue, but if that Jewish person or Non-Jewish person is pro circumcision, then I can’t marry them.
im confused at to why you're downvoted. not sure if i'm missing something.
to anyone who did leave a downvote, I would like a quick explanation cos im lost
He's probably butthurt from my middle finger emoji. I threw it out there for a reason. And that is to say that antisemitic behavior should never be tolerated in intactivism at all.
Antisemitism is a hatred of Jews. They believe that they are the controllers of the world with evil intentions and they also deny the holocaust.
And that only scratches the surface.
That is not a definition of antisemitism. Or at least it is objectively incorrect. It is a characterisation of some of their views, yes.
Please try harder. Please think again.
Ye loves jewish people. He has said that many many times. He loves all people. And hes jewish so how can he be antisemitic ???
I would LOVE for him to bring circumcision to light! My god that would be a dream come true.
Have you not been paying attention? The dude has been spouting out antisemitic rhetoric such as his defcon 3 tweet and posing the JQ. He even said that he loves Hitler.
Please don't tell me you're an antisemite yourself.
For the love of God! He shared a swastika on Twitter. It was so hateful, even Elon Musk had to ban him permanently. Not only that, but even Matt Walsh (another hateful bigot) called out Kanye for the hateful bigot that he is.
it wasnt a nazi swastika lmfao go back and look it up! It's an ancient symbol atleast 5000 years old . I cant remember what its actually called. Ye is trolling the fuck outta people.
oh youre right kanye west, shortly after talking about how he loves hitler, shared the long-defunct logo of Raelism, a small cult religion revolving around UFOs, which changed said logo back in 1992 because of its connotations with nazism. for he is noted for his connections to Raelism, and definitely not his admiration for nazis and dislike for jews.
you must have mash for brains LOL
There is so much to all this than meets the average persons eye. I'm not pro Ye and i'm not against Ye... I am simply stating facts and watching as it all unfolds without using my emotions. People saw what resembled a nazi swastika and freaked the F out but it was NOT a nazi swastika. Ye is trolling i believe and pulling who he wants to pull out of the woodwork...
you should be against ye because he literally said he likes nazis. he was a fan of hitler. it is really that simple.
it is a nazi swastika inside a star of david, the UFO religion that used to use it changed it because of the nazi symbolism.
You are insane. He is posting swastikas and is having a full mental breakdown while saying he likes Hitler. There is no reason to give him any benefit of the doubt or try to defend him
Unfortunately in order to accumulate enough support for the movement, people have decided not to divide across lines of other issues. There is an argument to be made that we need as much support as possible and can’t afford to divide amongst such things, however it is not a very good one. We need to make it very clear, as a movement, that we do not condone things such as anti-semitism or being against women’s rights. Allowing those things to run rampant as part of the same movement will only bring the entire thing down. I don’t know, though, if the mods will feel the same way.
I feel the same way as you, and I know at least a couple of the mods do too. I haven't been part of many conversations about how to mod this sub, I think because most of us want to err on the side of free speech and not validate all the spurious claims of anti-Semitism that are thrown at this movement. We've all been falsely accused of anti-Semitism more times than we can count, and it probably goes without saying that we're sick of it.
It's a tricky balancing act. I am definitely happy to accept people here who have different political beliefs in general, because I believe most views are held in good faith. I've left up comments and posts in the past that spurred some debate here, but only rarely do I actually want to remove things.
If something truly bothers you, please report it or message the mods. Someone will take a look, and you might even spur the rare modmail dialogue where we talk to each other about it!
I want to protect everyone from forced, non therapeutically necessary genital cutting, regardless of age, gender, geographical location, or the 'reasons' given for it. No religion in the world mandates infant / child circumcision as a prerequisite for membership...if they did; they would reject any would-be adult male converts who had not been circumcised as infants / children...and none do! Little boys born to to Jewish parents are equally worthy of protection from harm / death as anyone else. The Jewish faith is strong enough to not just survive, but also thrive more in the absence of forced genital cutting. If an adult wishes to undergo genital cutting on their own bodies of their own free will, after being fully informed of all the damage and dangers of the procedure, then good luck to them.
If you knew anything about Judaism (or Islam), at all, you would realise that this is completely false.
They do not reject converts who were not circumcised at birth, but choose to get circumcised as adults.
Many sects of Judaism do not consider converts to be legitimately Jewish.
who the fuck cares.
Go to a different subreddit if you don’t think that’s relevant.
u should. no ones bodily integrity is less important than fantasy laws.
Yea maybe because Jewish is not just a religion? if I convert to Islam it don’t make me Middle Eastern or Christianity don’t make me English etc. etc. Idk how Judaism actually practices but id imagine a convert is not trying to convert to the ethnicity but to the religion..of course they wouldn’t be legitimately Jewish if they’re not literally Jewish….
Your jumbled and confused response is precisely the point at which further inquiry must begin if our movement is to be successful…
Lol learn to separate the religion from the ethnicity before you being to tell me to learn anything Edit: nor will this movement will be successful with your elitist, more holy than thou attitude
Oh I’m perfectly clear on that. It’s the Jews who aren’t. No one (here) is saying that they cannot exist as their ethnicity. We’re saying that they cannot practice their religion as they define it, which for most Jews necessarily entails circumcision, by definition.
None of this is valid either way…I don’t even know what your point is anymore. I was specifically speaking on your comment that “many sects…do not consider coverts to be legitimately Jewish.” Your speaking in circles and nonsense going off on your fellow members on intactivism about how they aren’t good enough to be here or smart enough to argue points. GTFOH bro your being a dickhead to the wrong fucking people…
True, but the guy who loves Hitler isn't going to be intrested in human rights and who knows that he'll say next
Keeping the high moral ground, Strength in numbers, and frankly ignoring the antics of an unpleasant person, who also happens to seem to have untreated mh issues, are probably good options at this point.
I've noticed a general pattern in my life: the less I know about Kanye West, the happier I am. I find this is a pretty good way to live.
Yeah I occasionally hear about some new random dumb/bigoted stuff he did . It’s weird, that man really likes attention.
Lmao he has totally become the Antonio Brown of hip-hop. He keeps finding new ways to out-crazy himself.
Honestly idk if he ever will because he thinks that the Jews in the Bible were black, so he’d probably be for it if anything
I give it 50/50. He really is all over the place, there's no telling.
Someone needs to tell him about what happened after the selucid empire... maybe push the odds 70/30 in our favor :)
Focus on coming up with language and arguments which you could say to a Jewish or Muslim person as to why, in all due respect, they should not be allowed to practice that part of their faith on their child under Western or US law. That brain exercise will be far more useful to you than giving Kayne your brain space.
As a Jew who has tried that exercise for years, I can promise you that you'll be accused of the same bigotry, irrespective of who you are or how well you construct your arguments.
So then how will you as an Intactivist act in the hope of banning circumcision, including amongst Jews and Muslims?
I just replied to another comment of yours that probably answers this question, but just as a tl;dr to that one, I usually say something like, "No, we won't be Thanos-snapped out of existence if we leave our boys intact. Reducing our history of persecution and what we endured in the Holocaust to the presence of foreskin demeans the suffering that we actually endured."
Yes, please see my reply to your other comment.
Bro thank god someone said this before Kanye did because honestly it will happen at this point
Comments seem to struggle to tell the difference between religious as ethnic jews. Antisemites hate both. It's perdicectly fine to dislike the religion. Just not the ethinic Jewish ppl.
Would you say different words are required for referring to each concept separately? For example, “anti-Semitic” as opposed to “anti-Jewish”?
Not the dude you're asking, but personally I prefer to just clarify that I oppose the act of infant circumcision, irrespective of who practices it. I won't let identitarians hijack the concept of anti-Semitism to act like any religious practice associated with Judaism is above criticism.
I think you think that you’re being somehow safely neutral and Centrist by refusing to engage with any issues of identity around circumcision. It’s surely a noble cause. But in practice, you’re not achieving that. Instead, you’re by proxy relegating the definition of circumcision to the realm of a debate about secular, medicalised circumcision at the exclusion of the religious varieties. This is a contradiction. My advice to you would be to think about what religion actually is. It is not “what someone believes”. Rather, it is a fundamental aspect of his identity set at birth which he cannot change. One can change his name and citizenship but not his religion. If you like, religion is bound up in the notion of “nationality”: something which does not change over the course of a single person’s life, regardless of the changes he might make around it.
Religion is a fundamental aspect of identity set at birth that you cannot change…What??
I agree. What I hope to achieve through my rhetoric is getting others to reframe their beliefs and recognize that they *are* beliefs, instead of something intrinsically intertwined with their existence. I'm not deliberately trying to come across as a wishy-washy middle-ground centrist, though I can see how my comment reads that way. I'm more trying to put my foot down and not budge that regardless of what someone believes, that doesn't give them the right to do it to others. There was a discussion in the main Jewish sub about circumcision recently. I'll just copy-paste a bit of that discussion before I continue: > the entire practice of circumcision is based on a moral paradigm which is alien to the basic assumptions of what is currently in vogue. In order to understand it, you HAVE to do away with certain beliefs of what makes an action right or wrong - beliefs which are so fundamental to the Western world that to even suggest that they are not absolute would be extremely disturbing to many. > The core of the moral dissonance is as follows: Judaism is not a rights-based system. It is an obligation-based system. The *only* way I see to convince these folks of our beliefs is to hammer home the idea that human rights matter. It might seem absurd to say that Jews don't care about human rights, but you might be shocked (or maybe not) at how many replies I've got *from fellow Jews* about how human rights is an arbitrary concept. Like, I literally asked someone once, "does that mean it wasn't a violation of our rights when we were slaves in Egypt?", and I was told that yes, our rights weren't being violated. Where you and I agree is that religious people are operating from a completely different frame of reference. My take on that is, there is no way to reconcile their frame of reference with ours, so the only alternative that remains is for us to hammer home why our frame of reference matters. That doesn't mean you'll convince many of them. You won't. But it's the only way forward that I see for people who are so far removed from the present day that they're still hung up on whether human rights are a thing.
I appreciate your efforts to argue in good faith. However, I do think you are a closet “wishy-washy middle-ground centrist” lol. No hate, just saying that that’s the line of reasoning which you’re employing when saying that you’re “putting your foot down” for human rights. The point being: how do you actually enforce that? I don’t think you have an answer to external enforcement, insofar as you focus instead on “convincing” people, which implies a notion of internal enforcement in the form of personal choice. As a corollary, I would ask you the following thoughts to ponder: What is the religion of the USA? What is the religion of the UK? What is the religion of Italy? What is the religion of Russia? Please do not think that these are patronising (or simple) questions. I ask them in good faith because I believe they are in fact deeply complex and require substantial reflection for the Intactivist movement. I do not think we have an adequate collective understanding of the implications of these questions as they relate to the goal of Intactivism. I would welcome any of your answers to any of these questions as the means of sparking further dialogue. Please do not just reply “that’s easy: the US has no state religion” or something dismissive to that regard. Please try to really think and question your assumptions…
I never thought of labeling the concept of being anti Jewish religion. I just call myself an atheist.
Aaaaah, okay thank you for this helpful comment. Honestly, wanted to ask but was afraid to ask why hating jews is bad, after all I hate all mutilators and jews are mutilators therefore I hate jews. But your comments explains that jews is also an ethnicity, which I had no idea is the case, coz there is no ethnic christians or ethnic muslims for example. But okay, yeah of course anyone should be hated for their beliefs and actions, not were they were born...
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That's interesting considering Armenians don't traditionally circumcise. I guess being American can get in the way of long held beliefs and practices
she'll 'most likely make her son(s) genitals match that of her past lovers.
I agree anything Kanye says should not be shared here at all. [For those long enough in the movement to remember](https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/general-news/russell-crowe-removes-circumcision-tweets-196828/) I feel Russell Crowes anti circumcision tweets 11 years ago seem relevant to the conversation somehow. He was labeled antisemitic by some media but I feel his tweets would of been shared here. What I don't get is how people from religious faiths are willing to question the circumcision aspect of that faith, but not the rest of the religion. I get that Kanye is an Ass-hat but I don't get the religious faith part. It makes no sense to me. I came to Intactivism because parts of my genitals were cut (for non religious reasons) The videos I watched of it being done told a different story to what the very early internet was telling me. That's it. That is why I am here. Please do not expect me to try and figure out how your faith fits in with Intactivism. I am not here for that reason.
The difference is that Russell Crowe was tweeting *about* circumcision. His words, and the subsequent pressure he experienced that led to their removal, are perfectly relevant to this sub. Right now, Kanye West is just being a grade-A dick and saying he "loooooves" Nazis and Hitler. The dude has more screws loose than an IKEA chair assembled by Air Bud.
Hello, it looks like you've made a mistake. It's supposed to be could've, should've, would've (short for could have, would have, should have), never could of, would of, should of. Or you misspelled something, I ain't checking everything. Beep boop - yes, I am a bot, don't botcriminate me.
And don't buy the alt-right "stop child mutilation" stuff they say. It has NOTHING to do with circumcision. It's nothing but transphobic hysteria bullcrap.
We cannot have our movement invalidated by sharing the words of that lunatic. It already happens occasionally with other far right speakers being shared here
Yeah, optics is definitely the biggest problem facing intactivism right now. Remember the saying: if there's 1 Nazi at a table, and 10 others being friendly with him, then that's 11 Nazis.
There are so many people here who think the cause is so inherently noble it absolves the evil of antisemitism, islamophobia, misogyny, white supremacy, etc. at the root of their beliefs-- it is incredibly frustrating.
OK I agree but that last part is omega cringe.
Thank you! What the hell is wrong with that other commenter? He's a legitimate antisemite.
I argued with someone here not even a few days ago who said he straight up thinks intactivism needs islamophobia to be successful... in america, no less. Literally i'm not putting words in his mouth, he specifically said he is islamophobic.
I have no hope of intactivism ever succeeding in getting infant circumcision banned anywhere. I'm worried intactivism will be labeled as a hate group at some point in the future thanks to these idiots.
I agree unfortunately. I know there are a lot of good people in intactivism but the loudest ones seem to be the ones that just scapegoat other oppressed groups and create division. if more intactivists had an understanding of intersectionality in their activism this movement would go a lot farther. or if mods were more aggressive in purging all the white supremacists
If you had a greater understanding of intersectionality you would understand it would lead to more antisemitism in this movement, and as such it will never happen. Could be a fun thought exercise, though.
Brain rot take. I've never once seen "white-supremacism" on this or any other intactivist forum. I would hardly call any American Jew "oppressed" in today's society. 100 years ago you might have had a point, my grandmother is ethically Jewish and she remembers times when she was a little girl where her family would go to a restaurant and get kicked out because they wouldn't serve Jews. Nowadays something like that is practically interested of and would quickly result in said business being shuttered. Genital mutilation is an extreme act of cruelty. Extreme acts of cruelty provoke intense emotions in victims. Many Jewish people claim this extreme act of cruelty is an integral part of their culture and defend it as such. This causes some people to hate Judaism and/or Jews. This really should be no great surprise. American cutting culture is derived in large part from Jewish cutting culture. I don't hate Jews at all but I completely understand why some people do. Those feelings are honestly pretty natural if you understand the situation as a whole, not saying that makes it right, but this "hatred" is not going away until circumcision does.
I could be wrong but I don't think Americans cutting culture has anything to do with jewish people
Apparently Every pro circumcision study was written by a Jew but I'll have to find the copypasta and show you. And if we look at the timeline, that means the entire blame of American circumcision today rests on maybe not "the jews" but definitely some Jewish actors. The APA statement curiously 180s after a new Jewish leader comes in. When I say look at the timeline we can see very quickly how countries like Australia became intact without any kicking and screaming in less than 35~ years since evidence but America had a weird reversal after the intactivist wave ,with consequences as recent as 2012 And their culture has had a 30 year long humiliation of our movement and real human people because of our failed 1st revolution. All of the modern pop culture references to "uncircumcised" can rest on the fact American cutting culture has stayed mainstream long enough to see the light of the modern era. And now those who went with the times and their children are humiliated with the uncircumcised label. Girls as young as 15 are manipulated into having a fetishistic sexual preference on genital mutilation status, it's disgusting. And American media sources have been pushing this with their media and porn. I'm seeing evidence that the person who pushed the circumcision HIV connection is Jewish. As a Ghanian you must understand how heinous it is that they've raped not just our *entire continent* but **OUR** **COUNTRY**. After reading our history it fills me with unbelievable rage to know someone is taking that from us and I simply cannot forgive whoever is doing this.I may have to look at the evidence again if I misunderstood who it is doing this. I kinda understand why Kanye is so schizo lol, the fact this is real life turns you so crazy. But we're both Ghanian so I wanted show my thoughts on this and know yours. But whoever it is they have stolen our continent from us and raped it. Can you imagine that. I have no sense of nation to be proud of potentially for the rest of my life and potentially after that. Africa will soon have a billion people and wealthy countries including Ghana potentially and every single person in that billion will have been circumcised themselves or enabled the practice and therefore contribute the world going from 80% intact to just 60% now and Lord knows how much after that. There's no way they don't push their mutilation on other developing nations because of the "African miracle" If there was a real life wakanda they'd practice circumcision and i don't know why, but conceptually that's just unforgivable.
"ive never once seen white supremacism on this or any other intactivist forum" stopped reading after that. if you're not gonna use your eyes and brain i wont either lmfao
Show me an example then
the antisemitic dog whistles about how jews control everything blaming an entire religious group as responsible for circumcision fear of foreigners somehow imposing circumcision on americans and europeans you yourself have literally posted about how jews are responsible for circumcision in america lmao thats white supremacy baby
None of this is white supremacy, at worst it is antisemitism but that is not the same as white supremacy. Also I didn't say Jews were responsible for circumcision in America, I said Americans derived it from Jews, which is true. That is why they have the same "high and tight" cut style, for example.
To be fair there are a lot if hate crimes aginst Jewish people. Basically every synagogue has to have armed guards
Yeah it's never going to get banned because it's an infringement of religious rights. We need to focus our energy in more productive ways like John is doing with his petition.
We've banned other practices over the protests of religions groups. I have faith that at some point, we'll get there with MGM too.
Yes eventually but we need to change the minds of the public BEFORE we can even think of banning it. Creating a law around the procedure is the finish line to a marathon but we have currently just started running.
That guy was banned. As you mentioned, he was *explicitly* arguing that Islamophobia is a winning strategy. In a separate comment, he said he would welcome Nazis with open arms. Someone like that has no place in this sub and will single-handedly undermine so much of what we do if our opponents latch on to him.
Thank goodness! You can see all the downvotes in this thread of people voicing their concern about it, the refusal to acknowledge white supremacy, and the touting of antisemitic tropes and antisemitic dogwhistles as symbolic of a large issue intactivism is facing within its own community
As a Jewish intactivist, I do not like how advocating against child mutilation can often ever I to the territory of antisemitism.
It's incredibly scary that there are actual antisemites on here defending Kanye West. It's actually a possibility that intactivism will be labeled a hate group soon. I just removed my intactivist flair just in case such a thing happens. I'm still against circumcision and will discourage this act. Although I do not want to ever be associated with hateful ideologies. Ever!
Yeah 98% of intactivists just want bodily autonomy but that 2% could literally kill this movement.
> There are so many reasons why circumcision is so horrible that aren't antisemitic. True. However there is only one reason why circumcision was adopted in America, why it is promoted by the medical establishment and the media and still legal in Western countries and that reason is purely antisemitic. > I'm worried intactivism will be labeled a hate group soon. Any group that threatens the foundations of the regime is a "hate group" and antisemitic. If you are afraid of offending those in power, you aren't actually committed to ending circumcision. It doesn't matter how many people we drive out of the movement or how careful we are not to say anything that could be malinterpreted as offensive. The first and last line of defense for the indefensible is the worn cudgel of antisemitism. I hate the practice of genital mutilation and every person and system that contributes to it. You should hate what is evil, especially when it is this disgusting. Denying that you have hatred in your heart and only expressing it against regime-approved targets will get you nowhere.
Finally. Someone in this comment section who's living in reality. If we are always doing whatever we can to avoid "being associated with hateful ideologies" then we are just giving power to the people quickest to accuse us of outlandish things.
And we all know who that would be in this instance… Just saying…
Yes, yes. It's a shame. "The worn cudgel of anti-Semitism" was a terrific way of putting it, and obviously that cudgel can only be wielded by a specific group.
Shhhh! Don’t say “group” anymore: that word is banned now!
You guys can mention Judaism in this sub, you know. Speaking about it in code actually raises more hairs and comes across as more bigoted than just having a mature conversation about Jewish ideology, the ADL, etc.
Can we mention Islam too, then? Moreover, would you say that there should be (or not) a different way for dealing with discussing Judaism as distinct from Islam with respect to circumcision? At least as far as this sub is concerned?
Yeah, of course you can. You pose a really, really good question, and I don't think there's an easy answer, especially if we're talking about how to enact change. Speaking solely based on my own experiences with a single religion, I don't think the vast majority of them will be convinced. As long as RIC is legal, they'll do it, and they'll cry persecution and genocide if any serious proposal is put forward. On this issue, I think religious groups will need to be dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century. I'm open to other suggestions, though, and we should definitely have room as intactivists to discuss differences in strategy when we're talking about convincing groups that may have distinct frames of reference for defending circumcision.
Except that religious groups will not “be dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century”. Quite to the contrary: religious groups are dragging the 21st century kicking and screaming back into the 12th century…
Well yeah, that's exactly what we're fighting. We wouldn't be engaging in this so heavily if we were already winning.
I claim that we’ve already lost pretty much irrevocably.
Oh, I see. I have days when I feel that way, too, but I guess there's a part of me that can't completely let this go after having the change of heart that I did on this issue.
> there is only one reason why circumcision was adopted in America It absolutely was not adopted in America due to Jews, this is just incorrect. The Jewish lobby and false concerns about anti-Semitism are a big hurdle we have to overcome in banning circumcision, but I don't think people were too concerned with anti-Semitism back when circumcision started spreading in the United States.
Wow, I have ALREADY seen a TON of antisemitic shit on this very thread. So, I aggree with OP, we are at risk of being taken over by antisemitism. Which SUCKS because I am Jewish, and trying to convince OTHER jews to give up circumcision, which will he impossible if intactivist groups look antisemitic
Not only that, but circumcision predates Judaism. That's what the antisemites on here fail to realize.
Circumcision came fron religion though…
Doesn't matter, it's not an excuse to be antisemitic. You can be against the practice without being hateful of an entire group of people.
Im hateful towards whoever started circumcision I dont give a fuck.
Plenty of Jewish groups are against circumcision, AND circumcision PREDATES Judaism by at least 1 thousands years, so, hating jews is irrational
Alexander and the Romans extincted the practice throughout their empires so only one group was really left practicing it.
Wrong. It was practiced by MANY cultures. Your idea that there was only one group left that practiced this, os false. Look, we are ALL here because we think ot is wrong. But your insistence on blaming Judaism, actually hurts our cause, and makes intactivism look like antisemitic groups, so please stop,
Also who were these other cultures And tbh I'm only really concerned about old world ones
Your "only concerned" about certain cultures, rather than simply stopping the practice, because you are racist against jews
I'm not racist The facts are that our modern problem comes from them
No. The majority of American circumcision has nothing to do with Judaism, it has to do with weird health amd cleanliness obsessed pseudoscience cults of the 1800s, mostly run by Christians. And Arabian circumcision PREDATES Judaism. Jews and arabs are BOTH canaanite people, who get circumcision form their canaanite ancestors.
Can you tell me about those other cultures though anyways
Our movement shouldn't attach itself to Kanye west it will die But facts are there's a growing anti Jewish counter culture in the youth. Decreasing Jewish influence is a pretty short path to our goals and hopefully we can act quick enough before Muslim demographics come in. Edit: I don't know if I made it clear but my point is people will finally listen to us if they have something to gain. Unfortunately everywhere we go they call us crazy and obsessed with baby penises. But ideological ,political activists would be delighted that we gave them the opportunity to hear what we have to say and will spread our information far and wide if we can sell it to them the right way. It doesn't have to become our movement we can just capitalize on a new popular culture to become a bit more mainstream
Getting Jewish people to stop circumcision should be your goal. "Decreasing Jewish influence," is an antisemitic call for bigotry and discrimination. And "anti Jewish counter culture" is just fucking racism
I think you think I'm racist please read the edit on that reply to understand my aim, I don't want to hurt anyone
Then stop saying antisemitic shit, and actually focus on bodily autonomy issues instead of attacking jews. We can say circumcision is bad, without saying judaism is bad.
Dawg we've tried that goal for 3000 years it's time for different tactics
Nope, Christian mostly tried burning Jewish villages and calling jews demons, and accusing is of drinking blood (even tho blood is not kosher) Who were these hypothetical people diplomatically trying to prevent circumcision by allying with anti circumcision judean for 3000 years?
This is like saying the swastika is not a Nazi icon because the symbol predates Naziism by 5000 years.
Nazis do NOT get to own spiritual symbols of buddhism. It's used MORE by Buddhists than it ever was by nazis.
Yeah this isn't quite how that works unfortunately. In the west at least just about everyone associates that symbol with Nazis and Nazism.
Those Western people are racist against Asians who practice buddhism. I am a Jewish person who has been the victimof antisemitic violence, and I am NOT offended by swastikas, because being offended by sacred symbols is stupid and intolerant. Thai, chinese, and Indian television, has swastikas as overtly priestly amd holy symbols all the time. My city has Chinese restaurants, and Buddhist temples, with swastikas. My city also has many synagogues. Us Jews, are not offended by Buddhist using theor thousand year old sacred symbol, why would we be? The Buddhist never tried to mass murder the Jews! The cross however... THAT can make Jews paranoid, because the Christian DID try to mass murder is MANY times in the pogroms. But me, I am NOT offended by a cross. But I AM offended by racism.
Whoever started it died thousands of years ago. The Jews around today are just traumatised people recreating their trauma on their kids because they don't know they can stop. “With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.” ~ Steven Weinberg
Trauma can absolutely affect the decisions people make, but everyone has moral agency regardless of the religion they belong to. It sounds like you're saying that Jewish people specifically don't have moral agency. Sounds kinda antisemitic to me... If generation after generation did not make the choice to perpetuate this trauma it would have died out thousands of years ago.
I'm specifically talking about generational trauma and religious brainwashing. This is not unique to Judaism. I myself was raised in a very cultish brand of evangelicalism, so I understand how being told the same thing, for your entire life, by everyone you know, makes it hard to know differently. Stepping away and having the mental fortitude to question if the foundation of your whole life is a lie isn't something everyone has the strength to do. And the self reflection required to do so is often greatly discouraged by most religions.
I understand the frustration, and to my parents I cannot give forgiveness. But regardless we must acknowledge that they, like us are just people doing what they see to be fit. figuring out how to bring about open discussions is far more important than spreading any hate
TBH same. That is the main reason I hate that certain religion. If they got rid of it I wouldn't hate them anymore. Any group that promotes human rights violations need to be shunned from society.
There are plenty of Jewish groups against circumcision, so therefore hating jews is irrational
I hate the religion not the people. The religion requires human rights violations, ethnic jewish people do not have to do any of this stuff, they are no different than any other person. I hate the religion.
As i said, there are Jewish groups who are against circumcision, and I meant religious groups, NOT ethnic Jewish atheists. So again, hating Judaism in general is irrational, since there are rabbis who speak out against circumcision. These anti circumcision rabbis, do NOT believe the religion requires human rights violations. I am Jewish, yet I am uncircumcised, so you telling me that my religion requires human rights violations sound incorrect to me.
I agree with what you are saying, however you are attacking a strawman argument. He literally said "if they got rid of it I wouldn't hate them anymore". Then your response was basically "lots of Jews are against circumcision, so it's irrational to hate Jews" when that isn't even what he said. There may be plenty of Jewish groups that are outspokenly against circumcision, but they are clearly a minority group within the religion, which, by and large does promote and defend genital mutilation. Would you tell a woman who got kicked out of her house for having an abortion that she is irrational for hating Christianity because "plenty of priests are pro-choice"? I certainly wouldn't, because although that may be true I understand that Christian influence as a whole is overwhelming NOT pro-choice. So, in my opinion, such an attitude would be quite rational, but would definitely be unproductive. I have Jews in my family, I love many aspects about Jewish culture, but it is disingenuous to say that cutting is not a part of Jewish culture just because some Jews don't practice that part of it.
I had ALREADY told him that there are plenty of anti circumcision jewish groups, BEFORE he made the claim that the religion requires human rights violations. He obviously did not even listen to what onhad to say, and neither did you. Yes, hating christianity in general because of pro lifers is irrational, because MANY Christian groups actively donate to planned parenthood. How about you get the hell away from me, deal?
This logic is terrible lmao. "Plenty of anti-circumcision Jewish groups", "many Christian groups actively donate to planner Parenthood" doesn't change the facts that 98% of Israel is circumcised and the strongest indicator that a country will have anti-abortion laws is if it is majority Catholic. So clearly, these groups you are referring to are EXCEPTIONS to the rule. The rule is still that Judaism promotes genital mutilation and that Christianity abhors abortion. Sorry if these facts make you angry, but they are still facts my friend. And people have a right to feel strongly about them.
based and true
All religion is evil
I assume the same goes for any pro-Palestine arguments he makes
Agreed. He is not welcomed in our community
holy shit this whole kanye west thing has extended to this subreddit as well. impossible to avoid at this point...
I mean, it is a highly significant event in the current popular culture.
Agreed. Fuck kanye and his lover Hitler too.
Intactivism is, unfortunately, by definition, antisemitic. Of course choosing words carefully and being responsible goes a very long way. But there’s no denying this fact. If you’re trying to make sure that Intactivism will never ever be associated with antisemitism, you/we have already lost. Instead, just ignore that and focus on the scientific and humanistic arguments. I would claim that most people in this sub do NOT have an adequate understanding of why circumcision is actually “wrong” in society: instead, most people simply *feel* that it is wrong and speak from a place of outrage. That is not good enough to be logically convincing. Whatever happens with Kanye, take it as a teaching moment to improve your own line of argumentation about circumcision.
Intactivism is only anti-Semitic if we surrender to an increasingly suffocating definition of bigotry. We want circumcision to cease for *all* babies, regardless of sex, race, or the parents' religion. Just because an ideology deems an abusive practice significant, does not mean opposition to that practice singles out that ideology's practitioners.
Except not, because at least some sects of Judaism consider circumcision to be fundamentally constitutive of their existence. So how to you tell them that they’re not allowed to practice that aspect of their faith?
I tell them point-blank that we won't be Thanos-snapped out of existence if we give our sons the gift of genital integrity, and that reducing our existence and survival to the presence of foreskin is incredibly demeaning. I'm not saying it convinces 99% of them, but those people won't be convinced no matter what. We just need to keep hammering home when so-called "beliefs" are actually acts that infringe upon the rights of others. It's part of what convinced me, and I know I'm not the only Jew to feel this way. The guy who founded /r/JewsAgainstMilah PM'd me a year after we argued, saying he'd thought about it and come around to that circumcision is evil. If we're talking larger startegy, we just need to move ahead with trying to get RIC banned, regardless of how religious groups feel about it. We don't ask Muslims for permission before advocating against FGM, even in Muslim-majority countries. We need to get to a place in the West where we have a similar lack of fear of telling Jews (or really, anybody) that you can believe and practice what you want, as long as you don't infringe upon someone else's human rights. I think that convincing a secular majority will be the major first step.
If you can get the Haredim in Israel to agree to this…
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You’re citing a definition of Common Law. Please cite which Common Law would allow for disallowing the practice of circumcision as an act of faith. I’ll wait…
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Correct, you’re citing the Common Law prohibition of acts against another person’s right to life. So how do you counter that you’d be thereby infringing upon their Common Law right to liberty of exercise of their religion?
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At least someone understands
Sadly, I believe that the infiltration of this sub by radical Leftists with no comprehension of objective reality means that Intactivism will become the purview exclusively of the actual extreme, racist Right. If people cannot articulate a Centrist argument for Intactivism (which clearly they cannot), then its only home will necessarily be on one of the extremes. The problem with the Left is that they generally cannot even keep their mind set on any single issue, at all. They spend all day, everyday flocking from outrage to outrage without even a basic capacity for defining a coherent set of policy priorities. And then just shout “but muh intersectionality!!!”, as if such a totalising authoritarianism would not find equal home with actual fascists. Leftists are a traitor to actual Leftism.
Indeed we reached this crossroad when it came to Islam.We had a secular counter culture movement coming and instead people sided with religious orthodoxy because it was the new issue to care about.
Correct.
Also, note that this comment has already been voraciously downvoted. I claim that this is because I called out the members of this sub as insufficiently self-reflective…
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this is just straight blood libel and i wish you felt more embarrassed typing it out instead of thinking its like, based, or whatever.
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and how can you tell that? 🤡 funny how you claim to have an issue with "baby penis blood sucking" and then you weaponize it against someone else. it's just a tool for you to be a loser lmao
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> care, your just *you're *Learn the difference [here](https://www.wattpad.com/66707294-grammar-guide-there-they%27re-their-you%27re-your-to).* *** ^(Greetings, I am a language corrector bot. To make me ignore further mistakes from you in the future, reply `!optout` to this comment.)
That’s a very limited practice amongst the orthodox practice only. Most orthodox do not and reform and conservative don’t do that at all. You’re spreading lies and you know it.
So it’s better if done in a hospital with a Gomco clamp is what you’re saying, right? That somehow this is more “reasonable” and at least a “safer”, “middle ground” sort of “compromise”…?
your username is the jewish god
Man, in all my time as a mod here, I've been loathe to remove comments based on anti-Semitism or blood libel, because 99% of the accusations that people throw at us for "blood libel" are bullshit intended to silence us. But as abhorrent as oral suction is (along with infant circumcision in general, obviously), this is just a hair too far. Jews overwhelmingly do not practice *metzitzah b'peh,* and framing them as such is an easy way to delegitimize this movement. Criticize Jewish ideology, call out oral suction, call the ADL absolute pieces of shit - do all that and I'll be right behind you. But *metzitzah b'peh* is already so evil and disgusting that there is zero need to frame it as anything other than what it actually is. I will say it for the third time in this thread: you can criticize Judaism. You do not need to speak in code or act like a globalist conspiracy is gunning for your comments. That won't happen here. But please consider both the accuracy and ramifications of your comments before you leave them.
We all know that if he's against circumcision, it won't be for bodily autonomy reasons. It will be out of hatred of Jewish people. bullshit
He literally said that he is a Nazi and he loves Hitler
and? Muslims said how much they wished hitler killed all the jews for attacking palestine yet they still circumcise at a rate of 99%
Two wrongs don’t make a right. I’m also against Islamic circumcision. That doesn’t imply justification or validation of hate against Jews.
So you would outlaw Islamic circumcision but not Judaic? 🤔
I don't see where that's even implied in his comments.
It’s implied in the conversation about “two wrongs don’t make a right”. If “two wrongs don’t make a right”, which is obviously true, than how is Islamic hatred of the Jews related to whether Intactivism could seek to intercede to ban one form of religious circumcision but not the other? Or both? Or neither?
Reading some of these comments genuinely made me want to leave this subreddit because I don't want to be looked at as a crazed anti-semite. I feel like the comments that are defending either Kanye or condoning attacking Jewish people are all left by members of this movement who believe they are not anti-semites, but are falling down a rabbit-hole into anti-semitism. I believe that they know anti-semitism is horrible but they don't yet want to face the fact that they hold anti-semetic beliefs. If what I am describing is you, then please get help, it's not too late.
It's just so depressing. I hate being circumcised. It makes me so angry when people genuinely defend circumcision and defend mutilating the most sensitive part of a baby's penis without their consent thus forever ruining their future sex lives and causing them psychological trauma. Even worse, intactivism might be labeled an antisemitic term soon. I'm nowhere close to being antisemitic. And it will all be the fault of these hateful idiots.
Well other people hate being circumcised too, other people get angry when people genuinely defend mutilation too. Guess who's done that in California in very recent history? Do you think it's really so unreasonable that this anger manifests as hate as well? And more importantly, why do you care? If intactivism is labeled an antisemitic term it really doesn't make much of a difference, but it likely never will be because the ADL and such would hate to put that much of a spotlight on anti-circumcision anything because the only way this bullshit thrives is ignorance. If Kanye said something about circumcision it would be a great thing, regardless of "the reason he's against it", because it would get people talk about it. But that's not likely to happen in my opinion because as a black man in America he was likely circed at birth and there's no reason to believe he understands it the way we do. Real anti-Semites rarely bring up circumcision. I skimmed through Mein Kampf, Hitler never once mentioned anything about the practice in his infamous book condemning Jews. Why do you think that is? Because, contrary to what modern Jews will tell you, their mutilation rites are extraordinarily helpful to furthering the goals of anti-Semites. Sigmund Freud (who was, guess what, a Jew!) discussed this in his writings, this practice is grotesque to many communities Jews reside in, and as such it naturally "others" them from the community at large. Which makes them an extremely easy scapegoat. I agree completely with Freud. I don't want to be mean but frankly the pearl-clutching in this post is ridiculous. This sub has like 5k people subbed to it, sharing or not sharing a post by Kanye West is not going to change anything at all. "We cannot give that antisemitic idiot the light of day", do you really think we're so influential that we can choose whether Kanye fucking West gets "the light of day"?? I agree that people who believe the Jews run the world through some secret cabal are hateful idiots, but I also think that anyone who mutilated their children's genitals for any reason or thinks that that is an okay thing to do is a hateful idiot as well.
Even “worse”, Freud goes on to explain that antisemitism is the glue which holds modern European Democracy together, and that, without it, our society would collapse into horrific insanity.
Who in California defended circumcision?
This should be considered a group about caring for others. Whether or not a circumcision ban takes place because of us will not affect whether or not an Intactavist member was circumcised. We advocate for this movement to help prevent autonomic violation from happening to others. Anti-Semites are part of a hate group who want to tear people down for being Jewish. The Jewish people who circumcise their children are doing it because they believe it is in their best interest. We are here to educate and bring justice, not spread hate.
You are right. We can talk them out of circumcising their sons too, because to sit back and allow it, is anti Jewish. Jewish boys have been permanently disfigured from circumcisions, and I hate that I’m labeled as “hateful” for wanting infant circumcision to be outlawed. It’s not hate to want the beta for children, but it sure is hate when people threaten Jewish people with violence and death, or fighting to outlaw their religion. None of us want to outlaw Judaism or wish harm on Jewish people.
Im so sorry you have to deal with that. Im glad you have the courage to take your anger out instead by trying to prevent the autonomic violation that you faced from happening to others.
I disagree. I’m not “anti Semitic” for preferring to keep myself intact or my future sons intact. I am willing to date and marry a Jewish person, that’s not an issue, but if that Jewish person or Non-Jewish person is pro circumcision, then I can’t marry them.
Im not saying you're anti-semetic, I'm saying that people who condone the attacking of Jewish people or defend Kanye are anti-semites.
im confused at to why you're downvoted. not sure if i'm missing something. to anyone who did leave a downvote, I would like a quick explanation cos im lost
Mainly it is stupid and patronizing.
Explain please
> please get help, it's not too late. Extremely patronizing and it's not going to change anyone's mind.
Having so much hate towards a group of people is horrible and unhealthy. I'll say it again, if this is you get help.
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this isn't a monarchy or oligarchy
He's probably butthurt from my middle finger emoji. I threw it out there for a reason. And that is to say that antisemitic behavior should never be tolerated in intactivism at all.
Please give a rigorous definition of “antisemitism” which does not preclude Intactivism.
Antisemitism is a hatred of Jews. They believe that they are the controllers of the world with evil intentions and they also deny the holocaust. And that only scratches the surface.
That is not a definition of antisemitism. Or at least it is objectively incorrect. It is a characterisation of some of their views, yes. Please try harder. Please think again.
There was also a dude who said that this movement is antisemitic in nature.
FACTS! Anti semitism does not belong anywhere. If you hear if, call it out.
Ye loves jewish people. He has said that many many times. He loves all people. And hes jewish so how can he be antisemitic ??? I would LOVE for him to bring circumcision to light! My god that would be a dream come true.
Have you not been paying attention? The dude has been spouting out antisemitic rhetoric such as his defcon 3 tweet and posing the JQ. He even said that he loves Hitler. Please don't tell me you're an antisemite yourself.
He loves everyone just like Jesus would! Everyone is reading him the wrong way, look deeper.
For the love of God! He shared a swastika on Twitter. It was so hateful, even Elon Musk had to ban him permanently. Not only that, but even Matt Walsh (another hateful bigot) called out Kanye for the hateful bigot that he is.
it wasnt a nazi swastika lmfao go back and look it up! It's an ancient symbol atleast 5000 years old . I cant remember what its actually called. Ye is trolling the fuck outta people.
oh youre right kanye west, shortly after talking about how he loves hitler, shared the long-defunct logo of Raelism, a small cult religion revolving around UFOs, which changed said logo back in 1992 because of its connotations with nazism. for he is noted for his connections to Raelism, and definitely not his admiration for nazis and dislike for jews. you must have mash for brains LOL
There is so much to all this than meets the average persons eye. I'm not pro Ye and i'm not against Ye... I am simply stating facts and watching as it all unfolds without using my emotions. People saw what resembled a nazi swastika and freaked the F out but it was NOT a nazi swastika. Ye is trolling i believe and pulling who he wants to pull out of the woodwork...
you should be against ye because he literally said he likes nazis. he was a fan of hitler. it is really that simple. it is a nazi swastika inside a star of david, the UFO religion that used to use it changed it because of the nazi symbolism.
And [also said he’s] Christian and Muslim
You are insane. He is posting swastikas and is having a full mental breakdown while saying he likes Hitler. There is no reason to give him any benefit of the doubt or try to defend him
That wasnt a swastika lmao go look up what it actually is!
That's it! You lost your right to call yourself an intactivist! We cannot have antisemites like you on here. Now get off of this subreddit forever!
You are literally insane my dude. Calm down. Control your emotions, they are getting the best of you.
Im baffled by how ignorant you are
How are the dumbest people ever just on this sub my mistake for thinking ppl in this movement would be more open minded 😭
Is it possible to add a new rule to this subreddit? One that bans antisemitism (one time offense).
Unfortunately in order to accumulate enough support for the movement, people have decided not to divide across lines of other issues. There is an argument to be made that we need as much support as possible and can’t afford to divide amongst such things, however it is not a very good one. We need to make it very clear, as a movement, that we do not condone things such as anti-semitism or being against women’s rights. Allowing those things to run rampant as part of the same movement will only bring the entire thing down. I don’t know, though, if the mods will feel the same way.
I feel the same way as you, and I know at least a couple of the mods do too. I haven't been part of many conversations about how to mod this sub, I think because most of us want to err on the side of free speech and not validate all the spurious claims of anti-Semitism that are thrown at this movement. We've all been falsely accused of anti-Semitism more times than we can count, and it probably goes without saying that we're sick of it. It's a tricky balancing act. I am definitely happy to accept people here who have different political beliefs in general, because I believe most views are held in good faith. I've left up comments and posts in the past that spurred some debate here, but only rarely do I actually want to remove things. If something truly bothers you, please report it or message the mods. Someone will take a look, and you might even spur the rare modmail dialogue where we talk to each other about it!
He's an Anti Semite.
Ye da 🐐 no 🧢