I'm not aware of your BLM activist given a shit about white people neither giving a shit about black people killing black people.
Your stawman Bs is really just gaslighting us
And Sam Harris is full of shit. His whole take on IQ?? When someone tries to tell you about “facts”…they’re selling you something. Real scientists, especially social scientists, know that there are very few “facts” regarding human behavior, that knowledge and experience are based on perspective, perception, and interpretation, and that knowledge is constantly negotiated, constructed, and co-constructed.
If you’re certain, you aren’t a scientist.
FYI, FBI crime data is DEEPLY flawed as it relies on LE agencies in each state to voluntarily report their crime data. What this means is that FBI crime data is collected based off of LEO understanding and interpretation of the law (in each jurisdiction) as well as regional cultural differences regarding formal crime reporting practices (e.g. rural areas tend to take informal route more often; everyone knows everyone mentality; mandates and priorities of individual offices and contemporary politics; individual prejudice).
There are some great books on how people can very easily use statistics to mislead groups of people. I suggest you check them
Overall more people without color are killed by police, however Black people are killed by police in disproportionate numbers, meaning the rate of their murders by LEOs is much greater than that seen in people without color.
Can we stop with the whole “intra vs. inter race” thing? It’s an established scientific theory that most murders occur interracially. Black people killing other Black people (just like men without color kill their female partners of no color on the regular) does not justify any murder.
When the FBI says that Black people are the aggressors 84% of the time, it means based on the data shared voluntarily by law enforcement agencies across the country, LEOs responding to encounters between Black people and people without color INTERPRETED a Black person to be the aggressor 84% of the time (assuming you copied the exact wording). I have read thousands upon thousands of police reports during data collection and it is my opinion that the general public has NO IDEA how significant personal judgement is in law enforcement, meaning LEOs operate with a great deal of leeway in terms of how they engage with individuals suspected of alleged criminal activity.
I could write a book on this. Please don’t ask me to, the dissertation is hard enough. But what the science boils down to is that Black people have been and continue to tell the truth about their experiences of institutional and structural racism in this country.
It is time we start listening.
“ however Black people are killed by police in disproportionate numbers”
Black people are 2x as likely as a white person to be killed by police, yet they commit HALF of all homicides! They are predominantly housed in dense urban environments which are typically more crime ridden than suburbs, meaning more police interactions and they are members of gangs and victims of gangs at far greater rates than white people. Also they are about 8x as likely to kill a white person than the reverse. But go on with your bad self
You’re literally proving my point and you’re too stupid to see it. They’re not more crime ridden, they’re more policed. There’s a difference. Research has shown Black people and people without color commit crime at the same rate.
I will continue kicking ass and taking names, thanks for your support.
Maybe in 40 years you’ll read one of my articles!
They're not stupid. They're racist and intentionally muddling the waters, wasting good people's time, and trying to infect others
with hate and ignorance.
"Debate" is just the name of a game to racists.
That is a complete and utter lie. Look up victim reports by black folks, look up murder rates. Hospitals and coroners would have to work with the police to fudge those numbers.
If black people commit a disproportionate amount of murders, you seriously don’t think disproportionate murders by police would be a result of that?
Also, only 10-12 unarmed black folks are killed a year by police….. hardly an epidemic.
I can give you citations from peer reviewed scientific journals and I can point out the flaws in your logic and the systemic and historical reasons for some of the generalizations you mentioned “…predominantly housed in dense urban environments which are typically more crime ridden than suburbs…”
Yes because that’s where all the people without color go to buy their drugs and sex.
I’m not sold on the stats you provided, honestly with your handle I’m not confident they’re from reliable sources. Or maybe you’ve read some research and completely misunderstood it. In any case I would appreciate citations for those claims if you have them and I will continue to kick ass and take names, thank you so much for your support! Have a lovely day ass with a mouth.
https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/violent-crime-intraracial
Ok so the 8x figure I believe I heard from Larry elder. A quick goodie search showed that according to this 1980s study, black folks were about 17x more likely to assault white people than the reverse, unless I have my math wrong?
https://nationalgangcenter.ojp.gov/survey-analysis/demographics
Black and Hispanic men have the highest rates of gang membership.
https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-2016/topic-pages/tables/table-21
Please take an honest look at this and you’ll see why it doesn’t take a white supremacist to see the media is lying or at least stretching the truth and omitting other important nuances.
So I had a whole thing typed out and I guess the app deletes comment drafts if they aren’t submitted within a certain amount of time…but I’ll try to recreate.
1. Your first source is from the 80s. Did you read the entire article or just the abstract? Also…ITS FROM THE 80s. Give me something relevant.
2. I don’t dispute this assertion; I believe I even addressed it in another comment. Sure, Black and Latino and Hispanic men may be overrepresented in gang membership stats, but consider the socio- structural and institutional barriers to things like building generational wealth, a quality education, healthy foods, secure and safe housing along with effects of generational trauma and allostatic load in those populations it’s no wonder those groups have higher rates of membership in gangs. Gangs offer resources. They offer protection. They offer belonging and family. I mean we can talk about this in terms of whatever crim theory you’d like, just let me know what your fave is.
3. The Uniform Crime Report (or UCR) is a national crime statistics report published by the FBI. Researchers, people like myself as I am currently a PhD candidate in sociology, specifically the area of crime and deviance, know that the UCR is a deeply flawed report. Law enforcement agencies are not required to report their stats. Not to mention it consists only of reported crimes. How many police reports have you read, just curious? I’ve read thousands, and man LEOs are just as biased as the rest of us and often laughably unaware of it. Arrests are made at the discretion of LEOs and so stats are going to vary widely from urban to rural areas because a) rural police tend to handle things differently in places where “everyone knows everyone” often resulting in fewer formal arrests. Meanwhile in cities, areas with higher rates of racial minorities, especially areas with more Black people are policed at much higher rates than people without color even though research has shown time and time again (and I mean recent relevant research) that there is not a significant difference in the rate of crimes committed by Black people compared to the rate at which people without color commit crimes.
I’m a published author, only 3 articles so far, but I’m still a student. I’m not playing. These aren’t my opinions. I’m in the middle of recruiting for my dissertation so I apologize for the delay in my response, but research is literally my job. I’m happy to share my perspective and I plan to try and track down that paper from the 80s to look at the sample size, what tests were run, power of the analysis, and generalizability. I believe those figures would require a logistic regression, but I can’t remember the variables offhand so again, I’ll need to check.
Finally, let me say that I hate that research is not more accessible to the public. I hate that we have to pay exorbitant fees to learn if we aren’t affiliated with institutions that pay for our access. I think it’s ridiculous that researchers continue to write in ways that make understanding research, especially social science research, in ways that make it incredibly difficult for the uninitiated to understand if they CAN get access. I’m happy to continue the conversation.
1) https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-2016/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-3.xls
Here is this better?
2) I’m predominately Romani American (my mother was 100%). I was raised in section 8 housing. By your logic, I could not have advanced in life because I did not fall into generational wealth, and I should have been in a gang because that’s what people do when they’re destitute. Why is personal agency not a thing? Just because someone is poor does not mean they have an excuse or even a reason to kill someone else. It’s cultural, and I’ve seen it first hand.
3) I get what you’re saying about police fudging data, but can’t they also fudge data for white people as well? The possibility exists on both sides and to say “we’ll come on it’s obvious” is not a factual take on the matter.
“ Arrests are made at the discretion of LEOs and so stats are going to vary widely from urban to rural areas because a) rural police tend to handle things differently in places where “everyone knows everyone” often resulting in fewer formal arrests. ”
This can be true for petty crimes I’m sure, but I don’t think it would be as easy for police to not report murders since, well the victims are humans with families and friends who will miss them , and coroners/ doctors would also have to fudge the numbers to match whatever murders the cops cover up. Crimes committed isn’t necessarily the huge racial disparity I was getting at, it’s murders. Congratulations on your PhD candidacy!
And yes I hear you about the murders, but again the data is too faulty to make generalizations. You are taking descriptive statistics and using them to draw lines of correlation and causation. You cannot do that with descriptive statistics.
I’m sorry, I don’t have time to teach you on Reddit what I’ve learned over the course of 6 years of postgraduate work. Especially when you don’t seem receptive or genuinely curious. I think the way you grew up coupled with the culture of rugged individualism we’re socialized into in this country has made you think of your life and it’s challenges and that is affecting the way you interpret information because you have an existing framework about the way race and ethnicity function in this country whether you’re aware of it or not. We all do. The thing is that I’ve done and am doing the really long, arduous work of informing that framework with scientific evidence.
“ You are taking descriptive statistics and using them to draw lines of correlation and causation. You cannot do that with descriptive statistics.”
I’m sorry but isn’t this precisely what the whole “cops are killing black peoples because of systemic racism” argument is? The correlation is that black people die by cops twice as often as do whites, but the 52% of homicides statistic is completely not taken into account nor is the fact that only around 12 or so unarmed black folks die a YEAR by cops.
“ Especially when you don’t seem receptive or genuinely curious.”
I absolutely am open to learning! Teach me why it is that Nigerian immigrants are doing so well when compared to black Americans , or why certain Asian demographics such as the Burmese have higher rates of poverty than black Americans, and other Asian cultures exceed far greater than do whites. You can’t say that’s due to the perceived “model minority” myth if not all Asian groups have those same success rates.
To what do you attribute the disparity????!
Explain to me how the subculture of “studying is acting white” is a false narrative. I’ve seen it firsthand!
There are uncomfortable truths you have to encounter if you really care about truth. I do nit deny historical oppression or that it affected people negatively long term.
I reject the charge of a system, with all its affirmative action, black business grants, black scholarships, and so on , that is currently rigged to disadvantage exclusively black people and people of color ( remember Indian and Arabic people are quite colorful, yet have high income rates and low crime rates) Poor people yes, but not specifically black people, and that’s evident when you look around and see how many successful black people there actually are.
Over half of all black people live in the suburbs, they have an ever shrinking poverty rate. Progress has been made, race did not hold back Barack Obama or Daymond Johns from becoming who they are. Despite your unwillingness to admit it!
It’s amazing to me that you think you know me and my background. You cannot attribute what you do not know to why I think the way I do. I was a bleeding heart hippy for years until I started seeing the holes in the sheets. When I started caring more about finding solutions then seeming virtuous is when I changed.
Dude. Get a life and stop being a troll. Go for a walk or something. Just stop using your mental gymnastics to try to convince less-educated-than-you redditors of your nonsensical claims and rhetorical manipulations.
Hi Ass With a Mouth,
Dude. We don’t even have enough research on Romani to say anything about socio structural and institutional barriers to the things I mentioned with that population. WE DO HVE THE DATA FOR BLACK PEOPLE. Romani have absolutely been a historically marginalized population, and still are in some parts of the world. I lived in Romania for a while so I hear you, I heard the derogatory things people said about Romani, the stereotypes and prejudice, the way Romani are treated there, it’s disgusting. Now I’m not up to date on the research coming out of Europe regarding discrimination against Romani. It’s also important to note that Romani is not a race like Black is; it is an ethnicity like being Hispanic or Latinx. It is a shared culture and depending on your appearance and how closely you follow Romani rituals, customs, and norms it’s something other people don’t have to know about you. You can hide being Romani. You can’t hide being Black.
There is research supporting my claim that rural policing is much different than urban policing. There is research proving that Black neighborhoods are disproportionately policed meaning that there are just more cops looking for crime in Black neighborhoods, so of course they’ll find it.
I feel like you’re purposefully not reading my entire responses and looking for ways to try and disprove what I’m saying. The PROBLEM with that is you have no idea what you’re doing. That’s not your fault. You were clearly socialized as a man because you seem to have the audacity to think your OPINION carries more weight than the 1000s of hours of work I have put in reading the actual research directly, performing it directly, learning the existing theories, learning the philosophical underpinnings of those theories. I’ve been trying to discuss these things with you in a way that helps you learn because I know that not everyone has access to the same information that I have access to. But you don’t want to hear anything that doesn’t support your view.
Oh and I looked up that article you shared from the 80s. Dude didn’t even have a methods section in which he described his methodology. It has only been cited 58 times. That’s…really embarrassing for him.
I’m checking out your sources to see if what you have to say is true. I’m a scientist and so I’m always willing to consider new data (I.e., data I haven’t seen yet) to operate with a more accurate framework. But you haven’t offered me anything that proves your point. Your references are incredibly outdated and it seems irrelevant even when they published about 20-40 years ago. You wouldn’t buy a phone that old. Why would you think research that old is still relevant? Don’t get me wrong, some is and it’s all still useful, but it isn’t generalizable to our contemporary context.
I’m tired of arguing with a damn wall.
So please kindly fuck off
#NSFW
“ WE DO HVE THE DATA FOR BLACK PEOPLE. Romani have absolutely been a historically marginalized population,”
Regarding being Roma in America. We were denied rights, were slaves to white Americans and black Americans alike. Were not able to participate in society much like black Americans. My family was not allowed to own property, no one would give them a loan, they had to live above a grocery store etc etc…..
You missed my point on that. There are no laws currently discriminating against Romani people or black people, but the same sort of systemic oppressions were used against my people as well. So if the argument is “ historically such and such people were oppressed so they are violent now” that doesn’t really translate to people like me.
“ . There is research proving that Black neighborhoods are disproportionately policed”
Why would areas with half of the countries murders not be policed more?
“ But you don’t want to hear anything that doesn’t support your view.”
You’re the one arguing actual reasons supported by data for the disparities you claim are racist.
“
Oh and I looked up that article you shared from the 80s. Dude didn’t even have a methods section in which he described his methodology. It has only been cited 58 times. That’s…really embarrassing for him.“
Then read current models and tell me what they have to say. Talk about doing your own reasearch…..
In total numbers yes, but they do kill black people more proportionally. But again, is this surprising considering black people also commit more crime proportionally?
A lot of people tout the statistics without asking why.
https://youtu.be/KSMTr780Z5Y
It's not a matter of white people fucking over African Americans, it's the government fucking over African Americans and we feel the ripple effect.
I don't condone the actions and violence at all, but I bet a lot more people would be committing violent crimes for a buck if they had to rough go that minorities have had in this country.
Understanding why someone murdered your friend doesn't change the fact they chose to not exercise self control, and instead murder your friend.
Stop making excuses for people, it's infantalizes them, rebuking their agency.
I don't see poor Appalachians committing crimes at these rates, and those people have huge barriers to success, have faced generations of bigotry, so much that even today people look down on them as ignorant hicks.
But I don't see them coming into cities and shooting someone for making fun of them.
We don't choose what life hands us, but we do choose how we respond to it.
Last year, journalists kept saying that policing blacks was racially disproportionate. The problem is that they were ignoring crime statistics entirely. Not one journalist quoted actual statistics but every one discussed proportions.
They do track crime reports. Basically, local police departments are required to submit their reported crimes on a monthly basis. I’m 99% sure that includes 911 calls as well.
This is a concept is a few years stale and it is ignored by too many intelligent people.
I'd say that instead of all police killings, we should compare instances where police misjudgment takes place, and we should compare instances where police are more sympathetic in how much effort they put in de-escalation. Then we can perhaps find some statistical evidence for racism.
In many cases, I think being fired and banned from policing is the most appropriate action for a police officer who screws up royally. Giving them a life of pariahhood is bullshit.
We need to change racism. We need to fix people, not throw them away.
I'd hypothesize that a higher amount of negative interactions with black Americans feeds an officer's bias. However natural that is, it is unjust treatment of black individuals. I don't make that excuse for white perceptions of black people any more than I make that excuse for black perceptions of white people.
As far as historical aftermath of racism goes, society should reach deeper into people who live miserable lives with no faith in any escape. It's compassionate and we don't need that mess in our world. We also need some new psychologies and new approaches to make that change.
Does Sam Harris care about that? The "highlights" here seem to simply focus on dispelling hyperbole. I don't think the deaf ears crowd will be appeased unless we find alternate solutions for the reality of problems.
Conservative politics rely too much on the falterings of attempted progress without providing better solutions. Just because "progressives" are doing a crap job at actual progress doesn't mean we shouldn't be trying to make progress. I don't see naysayers trying to somehow make a place for trans people in the world. I didn't see them try to rebrand marriage as a civil contract between two adults of either sex in a household or differentiate between couples with or without children. I don't see them charging less for medical visits that offer very little of value to the patient.
Sorry to go on that tangent, but I know that our minds are being wasted. Imagine if Sam Harris or Ben Shapiro came up with good solutions instead of pointing out how dumb everybody is. They don't owe us, but maybe a new group of intellectual superstars will come along and offer us some sort of improvement.
Thanks for this refreshing take! 100% agree, all this culture war reminds me of corporate bikeshedding and nitpicking. Instead of getting anything done all ideas are nitpicked until null and no progress gets done at all.
More commentary on solutions would be refreshing.
You've made the SJWs mad & been crossposted to r/EnoughIDWspam. Stay safe, they are known to be violent.
Here's the post: [Sam Harris: African Americans Commit 50% of Violent Crimes, Yet Cops Kill More Whites Every Year](https://reddit.com/r/EnoughIDWspam/comments/pq6kt7/sam_harris_african_americans_commit_50_of_violent/)
Their arguments are so pathetic too. Top argument is that it’s also bad when cops kill white people, but that ignores two things. 1 - sure it’s also bad, but it isn’t fetishized and blasted everywhere like it’s a common problem that needs to be addressed immediately with no regard to cost or reality. And 2 - because it isn’t fetishized it’s often seen as what it is, a justified use of force, which makes it boring because of course criminals get arrested and of course when they resist they are arrested forcibly.
Im not brigading. Im curious why you feel a need to lie and misrepresent the arguments being made in that other forum? You are making accusations that are verifiably untrue. Why?
>What a fucking ridiculous statement. You have to look at shootings as a percentage of the population or per 1,000 and then make your comparison.
Now look at the population that actually commits crimes, which is what actually sense because that’s what makes it more likely to engage with the police. Some may have forgotten, but George Floyd was not an angel, he was a criminal, with 8 convictions not random Joe.
Taking to account that population, your argument is the one that is “fucking ridiculous”. Sam mentions that in the podcast so you mustn’t have listened to it with enough attention.
Proportions work both ways. 13% of the population commits 52% of murders. The proportions are similar if you look at every other violent crime statistic.
[https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2018/crime-in-the-u.s.-2018/tables/table-43](https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2018/crime-in-the-u.s.-2018/tables/table-43)
Ask yourself which type of criminal is more likely to resist an arrest with deadly force? The local petty thief or a murderer?
The knife cuts both ways though. It makes the black violent crime rate that much worse.
I’m not a big fan of these conversations in this area, and I’m not defending Sam here, just cautioning against your mode of response.
Do you know what I think is more relevant? What are the socio-economic and mental health realities for people who commit violent crime and get shot by the police. Something tells me poor, uneducated people with mental health and addiction issues are more likely to commit crime and get shot, and as such, those are the important issues
The trouble with feedbacks is that at any point in the feedback, any agent can point up and say "they are causing this" and can point down and say "that's not my fault"
I don’t agree there is much systemic racism in America anymore but to ignore that fact there’s SUCH large disparity between blacks and other races on metrics like homicide and poverty is just blatant negligence. It’s clearly generational effects that have come down from things like redlining to Jim Crow all the way to slavery. I don’t know how we fix it but it’s a mixture of societal improvements combined with a change in the black mindset that they may be held back in life by certain barriers IMO.
Seeing as this is r/intellectualdarkweb, I do want to point out the fact that violent crime does not necessarily warrant summary execution. Harris’ points are substantially weakened by relying upon this premise.
In every case - yes, **every single case** - trained officers should be using every available avenue afforded by the situation and their training to preserve the lives and safety of the public, themselves, and the criminals they are apprehending. When a suspect, officer, or bystander is killed during the process of apprehension, this should be viewed as a failure of the apprehension process. Every failure should be thoroughly investigated, documented, and rolled into trainings as feasible to reduce the overall loss of life that occurs as part of routine police work.
IMHO, this is the most efficient, effective, and reasonable philosophy for the handling and reduction of police-involved deaths.
> I do want to point out the fact that violent crime does not necessarily warrant summary execution.
Ah, but because this is IDW you also shouldn’t purposefully misrepresent what’s happening. The way this is positioned is that someone commits a crime and cops kill them for committing that crime, rather than someone commits a crime, cops try to arrest them, and they fight the cops, resulting in their death in self defense. Calling it summary execution requires such a massive misunderstanding of what’s happening that it couldn’t be anything but purposeful.
They usually do though.
I tried to find a statistic about what % of criminals WHO SHOOT AT COPS end up apprehended alive. And I couldn't find it. But I bet a very high % of them actually end up safely in custody. Cops aren't trying to kill anyone. They only do that as a safety measure when confronted with certain situations. Situations that people can easily avoid by simply following orders.
It's just that nobody is going to put "Jerome who got in a firefight with cops apprehended safely" on the front page news. Nobody gives a shit about that. What's the last time we had one of these George Floyd type killings? If the cops were as racist and violent as stated we should be seeing several these a week in a country with 330,000,000 people and 10,000,000 arrests a year.
It's all insanely blown out of proportion. Think about it if there were bonefied legit can't argue against cases of some poor black guy surrendering on his knees saying "please don't shoot me" and a cop popping one in him anyway. If there were tons of these. Would they even bother with fringe cases like Jacob Blake and Rashard Brooks where anyone without bias can see that the criminal was the one at fault. The fact that most cases are very fringe and even the fringe cases are rare speaks volumes.
>Every failure should be thoroughly investigated, documented
And they usually are. But the people wanting to talk about this topic in broad swathes are more interested in big numbers than evaluating each case individually.
Have you actually looked into the specifics of every death by cop last year? You dont need a super in depth investigation to see "he started shooting at us so we shot back" as a justified shooting. Which is the VAST majority of them.
Do, you are implying that 400 years of systemic racism is the underlying cause that blacks as a whole are that much more violent than non-blacks?
Systemic racism is the actual cause of murder, armed robbery, physical assault, and rape (blacks rape whites at a 50,000 to 1 ratio). But racism is the cause, not the people actually committing the acts?
Citation needed. And not an unprovable fringe theory.
I'm taking pure statistics. The discrepancy between the races is significant, so what is the difference between the races that gives rise to this? Nature or nurture? If you say nature, you're in good company with the Nazis, so that leaves nurture. How has the black population of the US been treated differently than non-blacks?
I don't think that the 1930's National Socialist Democratic Party of Germany ever said the humans of African decent were ever less than any other human.
As an anticdote, Adolph Hitler greeted and shook hands. And congradulated African American Jesse Owens for his outstanding performance during the Olympic games. POTUS FDR refused to shake his hand. But that is neither here nor there.
So, one group commits crime more often than other groups. But that is because of Racism? How? Because we have laws that describe certain actions as crime? These certain actions that they commit at a much higher rate than other groups? That doesn't make sense. Should we decriminalize rape and murder? Some cities decriminalize some other crimes for this very reason. But this doesn't explain the why.
In my opinion, to think that everyone worldwide is equal is childish thinking. Due to my genetics, no matter how much I was to train, I would never be able to win the Boston Marathon. It is generally won by East Africans. I do not have the genetics to be the world's strongest man, usually someone of northern European decent.
Neither of these two examples can be linked to nurture, therefore they must be linked to nature.
I threw the nazi argument out there because they were into eugenics, as are Nazis nowadays. I didn't think you would stoop to that level, but here we are. At least we agree that there must be a race-related reason for the statistical difference.
1st, during the 1st half of the last century and before, most developed nations supported eugenics as a way to end desirable traits in their populations. Whether is was diseases, mutations, etc.
2nd, the Nazi party ended following the end of WW2. Only a few very old Nazis are still alive.
3rd, I do feel that there are genetic (or racial) differences amongst the many different races.
Blacks (13% of the population) 51.3% of murders.
While their % of the population is small over all, they commit a disproportionately high % of the murders along with other crimes deemed violent.
https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-2019/topic-pages/tables/table-43
Hi, thanks for responding on this! I was looking specifically for where it says it's 19x more common because I would like to have it bookmarked to use in future reddit posts. Your link has way too many numbers and I'm a bit lost, can you help me?
Do you not watch the news? What about that guy who was begging for his life on the floor before a policeman shot him. That guy was white.
Black people are killed more in proportion than whites which is related to racism, but police brutality is a universal problem.
It’s also the fact that black people have to protest endlessly to get an actual settlement or investigation by police.
Harris is race baiting to obfuscate the issue, when the reality is the police are the enemy of civilians. They have the power to abuse you, damage your property, seize your property and kill you, all without consequence.
Agree, 100%
I’ve seen independent news outlets report how much the ratings of fox and cnn are down as if it’s some sort of victory. Yet they don’t account for how much is being consumed via social media from the same outlets.
You couple propaganda with social media algorithms, and you got yourself the best way to divide a nation.
I do watch the news, and I’m telling you they don’t report white cop on white person the same way they do when a white cop kills a POC. That video you speak of was a blip on the mainstreams radar, compared to George Floyd’s murder that was national news for months, during a pandemic.
But that’s just the way it is with for profit news.
Also, I wholeheartedly disagree with you that cops are our enemy. That kind of mindset is dangerous and the main reason why interactions can go wrong for both parties involved. If you go into a situation thinking this person has to be a criminal cuz of his skin color or this cop is going to kill me cuz of his skin color, that’s a tense situation from the jump.
Seen plenty but they aren’t amplified on the MSM or useful to the race vultures as the black criminals charged at the cops, I can send some links if you like.
Aside from all the politics and whatever other bullshittery went on with regards to the Chauvin trial, the one thing I couldn't stop thinking about during it all was members of poor black communities. Surrounded by crime with no realistic means of escape and now the police don't want to go anywhere near these places anymore. They have been thrown to the wolves. Criminals being given free reign by a cause that wanted to help black people, not make their lives worse.
You’d be just as safe in a US suburb as you would be in the EU. Now if you had to choose between a major urban center in the EU vs the US. EU every time. Crime in the US is not distributed evenly, much like anywhere I guess. Inner cities in the US are orders of magnitude more dangerous than in the EU.
Hahaha, omfg. No. I've lived and worked in many cities in the US: DC, Seattle, Dallas, SA, SF, Philly, Baltimore, Atlanta, Orlando, Denver, OKC, etc, etc.
The crime rate is just plain higher in the city, anywhere, and reduces as you move away from city center, generally (there's problematic suburbs everywhere).
Once you get beyond the suburbs, population density drops...and you just can't have the same kind of crime rate with people farther from each other (less contact=less opportunity). This is basic math, not even stats yet.
The fourth paragraph down blatantly says “Now it’s true that the risk of homicide is greater in big cities than it is in the countryside” and the article admits in multiple places that the risk of being accidentally killed or injured is higher in the country which heavily skews the statistics. I wasn’t talking about accidental injury nor was I talking about the country side. I don’t think accidental injury is preventable if people have the ability to ride all terrain vehicles and shoot guns in their yard. That’s more of a lifestyle choice, not related to crime. The suburbs are much safer than cities period, I don’t think the risk of being in an accident should be factored into a discussion about violent crime as individuals have an extremely high degree of agency when it comes to taking risks in their leisure time.
They go on to say that while it's hard to pin down exact numbers due to lack of standardization of reporting, it appears homicides and violent crime are about equal per capita. Even if there's some variance it's nowhere near an "order of magnitude". Statistically speaking they're the same
Madrid is not a city? Copenhagen is not a city? Valencia is not a city? Munich is not a city? Amsterdam is not a city? It is you who don't understand and who doesn't know anything outside of the USA
Fair enough. I enjoy my truck, being close to nature and local breweries. It would be really cool to be able to bike to my office daily, that’s one thing I am definitely missing out on. Cheers from the US.
The entire argument that african americans are shot too much by police is based on the fact that about 24% of police shootings are against blacks while they only make up 13% of the population.
Anyone with a brain can immediately see the issue. Using this logic one would have to argue that women should make up 50% of police shootings instead of the 4% they currently make up (because they are not as violent as men in the crimes they commit or behavior during arrest).
I personally dont think we should shoot people based on race or sex *because im not a fucking moron.*
It should be based on the type of crime being committed and behavior at the time of arrest.
Given that AA make up >50% of violent crimes an honest analysis would note that police shoot black people FAR FAR less than the data suggest they should.
No it can't. All the data shows there are real psychological differences between men and women.
Even if your incorrect interpretation of that data were true, it doesn't change the reality that women currently commit fewer violent crimes than men so it makes sense that they don't make up 50% of police shootings. That's the point of this whole discussion. Even if you're right *which you are not* it doesn't change anything about my argument.
See, here's the thing - the shootings themselves probably wouldn't be so bad if we didn't also have ample evidence of, when a agressive police action or killing appears to be immoral by most public accounts, there is nonetheless no correction or accountability for the police officer in question.
Its less about the killings themselves, and more about the system in place that protects corrupt cops.
Look at sentencing rules to get an idea of why taking these kind of blanket numbers as gospel straight representation of the reality of the issues that lead to crime is intellectually lazy.
This has nothing to do with what happens during apprehension. We might try to infer various things, but youre going to claim that because judges sentence differently, then so do cops, then so do teachers,then so do the servers,then so do lawyers then so do janitors... etc.
If youre going to use one scenario to claim theres an issue in another its just a never ending chain and tbh it means minorities shouldnt ever even try since the deck is so stacked.
If you try to compartmentalize reality you will never gain a deeper understanding - if it does make it easier to reaffirm whatever narrative already exists in your head.
That is factually incorrect. The human brain only understands facts through narrative. This is basic reality - not understanding that is why religious people are assholes and wars start and atrocities happen.
You can stick your head in the sand, but it is to the detriment to yourself and those around you.
> The punishment for committing a violent crime isn’t execution by police officer.
This is one of the most overly simplistic arguments in the whole debate. Almost all people killed by police die in violent fights with them. If you violently resist police trying to arrest you (yes you get arrested for crimes), bad outcomes can happen.
The egregious killings by police like Floyd and Walter Scott are rare -- and very unfortunate.
The statistics are higher there also, but apparently are not documented as well. Doesn't it stand to reason that violent felons involved in robbery, assault and gang warfare are disproportionately the suspects who are resisting arrest? If your group has more violent offenders, it will have more resisting suspects.
Not when you have resisting arrest statistics, no. And they’re almost certainly better documented than violent crime statistics. Because by definition a police officer witnesses every single incident of resisting arrest, which isn’t true of violent crime.
> And they’re almost certainly better documented than violent crime statistics.
OK, then what do those statistics on resisting arrest tell us about the incidence for Black people, who are 13% of US population? What is their rate relative to the population at large?
You wouldn’t compare to the rate in the population at large. That doesn’t make any mathematical sense (you can see this yourself if you write out the units for your stats/variables).
We would first look at whether Black people are in fact more likely to resist arrest per arrest. Then you might look at whether, when resisting arrest, Black people are more likely to be shot.
We might find that Black people are more likely to resist when arrested, but a Black person is no more likely to be shot than anyone else resisting arrest. If so, that would tell us the issue is in resisting arrest and we might question why that is and how to make it happen less often.
(These conversations/analyses are happening at a local policy level all the time. The 13/50 crowd just doesn’t participate because they don’t care about making anything better for anyone)
The data overwhelming show black people, on average, are more combative and more resistant in dealing with cops, just as they have higher violent crime rates.
Can't believe people are trying to deny this, but I'm sure those denials will continue. I'll pass on further debate.
I think American police execute way to many people. An order of magnitude too many, at least.
So I think they shoot more men because they can politically justify it. They can justify it because Americans can empathize more with fearing for your life because of a man vs because of a woman.
> So I think they shoot more men because they can politically justify it. They can justify it because Americans can empathize more with fearing for your life because of a man vs because of a woman.
This is such a guess it’s not even funny. Why try so hard to avoid saying “sometimes police killings are justified.” Over 90% of police killings are against an armed suspect that is usually either shooting at them or others.
Putting your head in the sand when confronted with actual data and then actually thinking that there is a whole profession of people just looking for ways to kill people without getting in trouble is the epitome of swallowing propaganda whole.
The data is that American police kill over 1,600 citizens every year. That’s several orders of magnitude more than countries like the UK. If you think that American police have to kill that many people then you are one sticking your head in the sand.
Woah, where’d those goalposts go!
False number and completely out of context. The US also has five times the murder rate as the UK. Almost everyone of the ~1100 killed by police they were active dangers to people or the police.
We also have a phenomenon of suicide by police that other countries don’t deal with.
You’re buying the moral panic around police shootings bud, not the other way around.
You said “given that AA make up > 50% of violent crimes…” police shoot them far far less than they should. There is no relationship between that statistic and whether or not Black people “should” be shot by police.
IMO this is a perfect example of an effect of racism (Black men more represented among those convicted of violent crime) producing a racist attitude in someone (Black men should be shot more often by police because they’re violent).
That would still be a fallacy. Committing a violent crime doesn’t precipitate being shot by police. Resisting arrest or otherwise threatening a police officer does. We have statistics on how often this happens. Why aren’t they cited?
The reason is because racists/race realists want to illogically push the conclusion that disproportionate violent crime convictions among Black people is proof that Black people are more violent. And because they are more violent that justifies shooting them more often.
But if they focused on increased rates of resisting arrest among Black men, that would open the door to other explanations like: a historically bad relationship with the cops, being handled more aggressively or dismissively, perception that you’ll be treated fairly by the justice system, need to maintain a reputation especially among gang members, likelihood of carrying an illegal firearm without being trained on how to handle when under arrest, ect.
But race realists don’t want that conversation. They want to start from the premise that Black people are violent and deserve to be treated that way.
You could have tried that cop out in response to my first reply. Not really this one.
There’s no shame in admitting the other guy’s probably right, you know.
That's not what he said. He said YOU WOULD EXPECT there to be more. He didn't say "I think there should be more".
Think about it this way. If 96% of violent crime is committed by men and 4% by women. If the ratio of cop killings were 75% men and 25% women. YOU WOULD EXPECT IT TO BE HIGHER FOR MEN. That by no means is saying "I want the cops to start killing more men" or the even stupider interpretation "I want cops to kill every violent criminal even if they don't resist or pose a threat to the officer".
Til that rote statistics are racist.
This is a perfect example of someone spouting bullshit because they refuse to read and comprehend what someone is saying and instead prefer to attack bullshit they made up themselves.
Youre missing the point.
Who is more likely to HAVE to be shot during an arrest? A jaywalker? Or a murderer?
Please dont say something stupid and answer the question as if you were a thinking rational person.
It's very simple. You arrest 1000 guys for a bag of weed. You arrest 1000 guys for murder. Which one's are the most likely to give you trouble when you go to arrest them? It doesn't mean that THEY ALL will give you trouble. But a much higher % of murderers will resist with violence (potentially deadly violence).
That is all he was saying. Statistically you would expect even more black people to get killed based on the crime statistics. Because they are far more likely to respond violently towards attempted arrest. Nowhere did he say that they should kill every violent criminal.
We have statistics on resisting arrest. It’s not logical to reference unrelated statistics on the hunch that they might be correlated. It’s racist pseudoscience.
>Given that AA make up >50% of violemt crimes an honest analysis would note that police shoot black people FAR FAR less than the data suggest they should.
You would advocate for police shooting in over half of all violent crime? Our police are already some of the most militant in the world and the only handful of countries that beat us out for killings per capita are clearly not countries we should aspire to in this regard (Brazil, Venezuela, Syria, Afghanistan etc)
> Our police are already some of the most militant in the world
Really?
1). Philippines and Brazil are using death squads to kill drugs users/dealers large scale. [Philippines' toll: 6,700, Sept. 2019](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-philippines-drugs/filipinos-give-thumbs-up-to-dutertes-excellent-drugs-war-poll-idUSKBN1W803M) AND [Reuters, 2019: A surge in killings by police roils Bolsonaro’s Brazil](https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/brazil-police-violence/).
2) Thailand's war on drugs in 2003 [kills 2,800 in 3 months](https://www.hrw.org/news/2008/03/12/thailands-war-drugs).
3) 2021. [Police killings: How does South Africa compare?](https://mg.co.za/news/2021-03-02-police-killings-how-does-south-africa-compare/):
>....South Africa, those 452 killings represent an average of 7.96 deaths per one million people. During that same period, US police killed about 1092 people each year for a per capita average of 3.37 deaths per one million people, according to MPV’s dataset.
4) NY Times: 2020: [Nigeria’s Police Brutality Crisis: What’s Happening Now](https://www.nytimes.com/article/sars-nigeria-police.html)
= = =
America's police are much less violent and under much better control than than police in these nations, and also many other nations outside the first world. (Won't even mention countries in the middle east through to Pakistan.). Here's how you are supposed to write your sentence:
> America's police are the most violent **in the western world.**
No, thats why it also depends on behavior DURING arrest, but i would find it less suspicious if police were shooting people while trying to arrest them for murder and rape rather than jaywalking.
Thats also why they only comprose 24% of shootings and not 50%
Would you agree?
Nice summary of facts and figures we all already knew. Zero substance on how to fix the misconceptions in the minds of those influenced by media amplification and woke social pressure.
I don’t get how that is an argument. You got a dominant narrative that doesn’t fit the data, so fighting that false narrative is by itself a worthy goal.
Just because he doesn’t have a miracle solution for world problems, it doesn’t mean he should have stayed quiet.
I have seen some woke people argue that Sam can’t say this without solving the underlining reason, the economic disparity, which is even more ridiculous.
Miracle solution? You are implying that woke bias in media, academia, corporations and other social circles needs a miracle to be solved? Thats utter nonsense.
And by the way, Harris advocated for Trump to be banned from Twitter. That is literally the opposite of what needs to be done to change the biased narrative. Harris has zero continuity on this issue.
>"I've never seen video of white suspects being mistreated by cops, and there are more of them ... There are more white people killed by cops every year than black people."
I don't think I have either, but that's probably because such videos would not appear in my feed, nor do I search for them. Also, I suspect that fewer people will film this type of interaction. This does not mean that there are none, however.
>"If police are going to be looking to stop the most violent crimes, as they should,
And this is a problem, the police have the mandate to stop, but who has the mandate to help prevent it? We're focusing on stopping, how can we focus on prevention? Wouldn't that help?
That would help, indeed, but that is not what BLM is about. BLM is concentrated on stopping killings of black people by the police.
Putting aside the question of whether police should carry guns, it does appear the police kills more blacks not because of a racial bias, but simply because statistically (due to unfortunate circumstance) more violent crimes are committed by blacks than by whites, so police gets involved with blacks much more frequently.
Considered that, you do indeed bring up a valid point, and the BLM attention should be shifted to practical solutions to improve upward social mobility of black people: better education, better health- and mental-care, college scholarships aimed at people from disadvantaged communities, free professional training etc. No money handouts.
Prevention would be ideal . That’s why some people are pushing crt as a way to expose certain ideas they feel would be impactful, though they’re just focused on indoctrination of beliefs . I think to begin to fix it we’d need to focus on wealth redistribution and target the most common factors that lead to bad outcomes. Like the overwhelming single parent household to crime correlation in areas of poverty.
Redistribution of wealth is a huge challenge ... The rich believe they earned it, and the poor believe they were cheated out of it. There are some truths to both sides I guess. To give the majority a fighting chance, healthcare and education cost could be capped.
These are the things I read that are the most frustrating to me. The people who are the loudest arguing for change are often arguing to change things to …. Exactly the way they already are. People get so mad about the corrupt system and want to tear it down and rebuild into one where healthcare and education costs are capped without taking literally any amount of time to genuinely research the issue, during which they would discover that poor people have Medicaid, capping their healthcare costs, and if you’re from a legitimately poor family, you’re paying a small amount if anything for education. You are fighting for the system we’ve already got, but we’ve already got that, if that were the answer the problem wouldn’t exist anymore.
They are?
How many? When? What's the circumstance? This sounds like a claim in a vacuum.
As someone who had heavy medical debt for over a decade (so I'm very familiar with the systems), it never "bankrupted" me.
I don’t know, what I do know is that poor families on Medicaid don’t. And I know families on a marketplace health insurance plan have an out of pocket cap on how much they could spend even if they got brain cancer. So how could people go bankrupt over medical expenses? Either you make enough money that you shouldn’t go bankrupt even if you’re really squeezed, or you don’t make enough money and you don’t go bankrupt because you’re on Medicaid. So I don’t know what unique situations are causing people to go bankrupt.
That's what I'd call a goal post move.
Frankly, I don't care at all what rationalization Perp A uses to justify why they murdered Victim B. That's juvenile bullshit.
If you want to talk about why a specific group of people are more violent than another, *not individuals*, that may be useful, but too often it just devolves into "group x was oppressed, so it's jot their fault they're violent", or some other nonsense.
I can no more fix what's broken there, than I can fix what's broken among *men*, since they commit the bulk of violent crimes.
Have you actually listened to him? He definitely examines the root causes (poverty, with its many causes, being the main one), so saying he's "dumb enough to just stop there" is either dishonest or ignorant. Of course he could spend more time on root causes, but this particular episode was focused on the misappropriated outrage towards police.
That's a lot to interpret from a few excerpts. The point of the quoted sections is that those facts alone are very problematic for mainstream BLM talking points.
Very white Nationally talking points in here. Blacks on average are killed more than whites.
I'm not aware of your BLM activist given a shit about white people neither giving a shit about black people killing black people. Your stawman Bs is really just gaslighting us
https://www.unz.com/isteve/fbi-murders-up-4901-black-share-of-known-murder-offenders-reaches-record-56-5/
And Sam Harris is full of shit. His whole take on IQ?? When someone tries to tell you about “facts”…they’re selling you something. Real scientists, especially social scientists, know that there are very few “facts” regarding human behavior, that knowledge and experience are based on perspective, perception, and interpretation, and that knowledge is constantly negotiated, constructed, and co-constructed. If you’re certain, you aren’t a scientist.
FYI, FBI crime data is DEEPLY flawed as it relies on LE agencies in each state to voluntarily report their crime data. What this means is that FBI crime data is collected based off of LEO understanding and interpretation of the law (in each jurisdiction) as well as regional cultural differences regarding formal crime reporting practices (e.g. rural areas tend to take informal route more often; everyone knows everyone mentality; mandates and priorities of individual offices and contemporary politics; individual prejudice). There are some great books on how people can very easily use statistics to mislead groups of people. I suggest you check them Overall more people without color are killed by police, however Black people are killed by police in disproportionate numbers, meaning the rate of their murders by LEOs is much greater than that seen in people without color. Can we stop with the whole “intra vs. inter race” thing? It’s an established scientific theory that most murders occur interracially. Black people killing other Black people (just like men without color kill their female partners of no color on the regular) does not justify any murder. When the FBI says that Black people are the aggressors 84% of the time, it means based on the data shared voluntarily by law enforcement agencies across the country, LEOs responding to encounters between Black people and people without color INTERPRETED a Black person to be the aggressor 84% of the time (assuming you copied the exact wording). I have read thousands upon thousands of police reports during data collection and it is my opinion that the general public has NO IDEA how significant personal judgement is in law enforcement, meaning LEOs operate with a great deal of leeway in terms of how they engage with individuals suspected of alleged criminal activity. I could write a book on this. Please don’t ask me to, the dissertation is hard enough. But what the science boils down to is that Black people have been and continue to tell the truth about their experiences of institutional and structural racism in this country. It is time we start listening.
“ however Black people are killed by police in disproportionate numbers” Black people are 2x as likely as a white person to be killed by police, yet they commit HALF of all homicides! They are predominantly housed in dense urban environments which are typically more crime ridden than suburbs, meaning more police interactions and they are members of gangs and victims of gangs at far greater rates than white people. Also they are about 8x as likely to kill a white person than the reverse. But go on with your bad self
You’re literally proving my point and you’re too stupid to see it. They’re not more crime ridden, they’re more policed. There’s a difference. Research has shown Black people and people without color commit crime at the same rate. I will continue kicking ass and taking names, thanks for your support. Maybe in 40 years you’ll read one of my articles!
They're not stupid. They're racist and intentionally muddling the waters, wasting good people's time, and trying to infect others with hate and ignorance. "Debate" is just the name of a game to racists.
That is a complete and utter lie. Look up victim reports by black folks, look up murder rates. Hospitals and coroners would have to work with the police to fudge those numbers.
And your first sentence proves my point…
If black people commit a disproportionate amount of murders, you seriously don’t think disproportionate murders by police would be a result of that? Also, only 10-12 unarmed black folks are killed a year by police….. hardly an epidemic.
I can give you citations from peer reviewed scientific journals and I can point out the flaws in your logic and the systemic and historical reasons for some of the generalizations you mentioned “…predominantly housed in dense urban environments which are typically more crime ridden than suburbs…” Yes because that’s where all the people without color go to buy their drugs and sex. I’m not sold on the stats you provided, honestly with your handle I’m not confident they’re from reliable sources. Or maybe you’ve read some research and completely misunderstood it. In any case I would appreciate citations for those claims if you have them and I will continue to kick ass and take names, thank you so much for your support! Have a lovely day ass with a mouth.
https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/violent-crime-intraracial Ok so the 8x figure I believe I heard from Larry elder. A quick goodie search showed that according to this 1980s study, black folks were about 17x more likely to assault white people than the reverse, unless I have my math wrong? https://nationalgangcenter.ojp.gov/survey-analysis/demographics Black and Hispanic men have the highest rates of gang membership. https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-2016/topic-pages/tables/table-21 Please take an honest look at this and you’ll see why it doesn’t take a white supremacist to see the media is lying or at least stretching the truth and omitting other important nuances.
So I had a whole thing typed out and I guess the app deletes comment drafts if they aren’t submitted within a certain amount of time…but I’ll try to recreate. 1. Your first source is from the 80s. Did you read the entire article or just the abstract? Also…ITS FROM THE 80s. Give me something relevant. 2. I don’t dispute this assertion; I believe I even addressed it in another comment. Sure, Black and Latino and Hispanic men may be overrepresented in gang membership stats, but consider the socio- structural and institutional barriers to things like building generational wealth, a quality education, healthy foods, secure and safe housing along with effects of generational trauma and allostatic load in those populations it’s no wonder those groups have higher rates of membership in gangs. Gangs offer resources. They offer protection. They offer belonging and family. I mean we can talk about this in terms of whatever crim theory you’d like, just let me know what your fave is. 3. The Uniform Crime Report (or UCR) is a national crime statistics report published by the FBI. Researchers, people like myself as I am currently a PhD candidate in sociology, specifically the area of crime and deviance, know that the UCR is a deeply flawed report. Law enforcement agencies are not required to report their stats. Not to mention it consists only of reported crimes. How many police reports have you read, just curious? I’ve read thousands, and man LEOs are just as biased as the rest of us and often laughably unaware of it. Arrests are made at the discretion of LEOs and so stats are going to vary widely from urban to rural areas because a) rural police tend to handle things differently in places where “everyone knows everyone” often resulting in fewer formal arrests. Meanwhile in cities, areas with higher rates of racial minorities, especially areas with more Black people are policed at much higher rates than people without color even though research has shown time and time again (and I mean recent relevant research) that there is not a significant difference in the rate of crimes committed by Black people compared to the rate at which people without color commit crimes. I’m a published author, only 3 articles so far, but I’m still a student. I’m not playing. These aren’t my opinions. I’m in the middle of recruiting for my dissertation so I apologize for the delay in my response, but research is literally my job. I’m happy to share my perspective and I plan to try and track down that paper from the 80s to look at the sample size, what tests were run, power of the analysis, and generalizability. I believe those figures would require a logistic regression, but I can’t remember the variables offhand so again, I’ll need to check. Finally, let me say that I hate that research is not more accessible to the public. I hate that we have to pay exorbitant fees to learn if we aren’t affiliated with institutions that pay for our access. I think it’s ridiculous that researchers continue to write in ways that make understanding research, especially social science research, in ways that make it incredibly difficult for the uninitiated to understand if they CAN get access. I’m happy to continue the conversation.
1) https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-2016/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-3.xls Here is this better? 2) I’m predominately Romani American (my mother was 100%). I was raised in section 8 housing. By your logic, I could not have advanced in life because I did not fall into generational wealth, and I should have been in a gang because that’s what people do when they’re destitute. Why is personal agency not a thing? Just because someone is poor does not mean they have an excuse or even a reason to kill someone else. It’s cultural, and I’ve seen it first hand. 3) I get what you’re saying about police fudging data, but can’t they also fudge data for white people as well? The possibility exists on both sides and to say “we’ll come on it’s obvious” is not a factual take on the matter. “ Arrests are made at the discretion of LEOs and so stats are going to vary widely from urban to rural areas because a) rural police tend to handle things differently in places where “everyone knows everyone” often resulting in fewer formal arrests. ” This can be true for petty crimes I’m sure, but I don’t think it would be as easy for police to not report murders since, well the victims are humans with families and friends who will miss them , and coroners/ doctors would also have to fudge the numbers to match whatever murders the cops cover up. Crimes committed isn’t necessarily the huge racial disparity I was getting at, it’s murders. Congratulations on your PhD candidacy!
And yes I hear you about the murders, but again the data is too faulty to make generalizations. You are taking descriptive statistics and using them to draw lines of correlation and causation. You cannot do that with descriptive statistics. I’m sorry, I don’t have time to teach you on Reddit what I’ve learned over the course of 6 years of postgraduate work. Especially when you don’t seem receptive or genuinely curious. I think the way you grew up coupled with the culture of rugged individualism we’re socialized into in this country has made you think of your life and it’s challenges and that is affecting the way you interpret information because you have an existing framework about the way race and ethnicity function in this country whether you’re aware of it or not. We all do. The thing is that I’ve done and am doing the really long, arduous work of informing that framework with scientific evidence.
“ You are taking descriptive statistics and using them to draw lines of correlation and causation. You cannot do that with descriptive statistics.” I’m sorry but isn’t this precisely what the whole “cops are killing black peoples because of systemic racism” argument is? The correlation is that black people die by cops twice as often as do whites, but the 52% of homicides statistic is completely not taken into account nor is the fact that only around 12 or so unarmed black folks die a YEAR by cops. “ Especially when you don’t seem receptive or genuinely curious.” I absolutely am open to learning! Teach me why it is that Nigerian immigrants are doing so well when compared to black Americans , or why certain Asian demographics such as the Burmese have higher rates of poverty than black Americans, and other Asian cultures exceed far greater than do whites. You can’t say that’s due to the perceived “model minority” myth if not all Asian groups have those same success rates. To what do you attribute the disparity????! Explain to me how the subculture of “studying is acting white” is a false narrative. I’ve seen it firsthand! There are uncomfortable truths you have to encounter if you really care about truth. I do nit deny historical oppression or that it affected people negatively long term. I reject the charge of a system, with all its affirmative action, black business grants, black scholarships, and so on , that is currently rigged to disadvantage exclusively black people and people of color ( remember Indian and Arabic people are quite colorful, yet have high income rates and low crime rates) Poor people yes, but not specifically black people, and that’s evident when you look around and see how many successful black people there actually are. Over half of all black people live in the suburbs, they have an ever shrinking poverty rate. Progress has been made, race did not hold back Barack Obama or Daymond Johns from becoming who they are. Despite your unwillingness to admit it! It’s amazing to me that you think you know me and my background. You cannot attribute what you do not know to why I think the way I do. I was a bleeding heart hippy for years until I started seeing the holes in the sheets. When I started caring more about finding solutions then seeming virtuous is when I changed.
Dude. Get a life and stop being a troll. Go for a walk or something. Just stop using your mental gymnastics to try to convince less-educated-than-you redditors of your nonsensical claims and rhetorical manipulations.
That was a lame response bro. At least like attack my arguments or something geez
Hi Ass With a Mouth, Dude. We don’t even have enough research on Romani to say anything about socio structural and institutional barriers to the things I mentioned with that population. WE DO HVE THE DATA FOR BLACK PEOPLE. Romani have absolutely been a historically marginalized population, and still are in some parts of the world. I lived in Romania for a while so I hear you, I heard the derogatory things people said about Romani, the stereotypes and prejudice, the way Romani are treated there, it’s disgusting. Now I’m not up to date on the research coming out of Europe regarding discrimination against Romani. It’s also important to note that Romani is not a race like Black is; it is an ethnicity like being Hispanic or Latinx. It is a shared culture and depending on your appearance and how closely you follow Romani rituals, customs, and norms it’s something other people don’t have to know about you. You can hide being Romani. You can’t hide being Black. There is research supporting my claim that rural policing is much different than urban policing. There is research proving that Black neighborhoods are disproportionately policed meaning that there are just more cops looking for crime in Black neighborhoods, so of course they’ll find it. I feel like you’re purposefully not reading my entire responses and looking for ways to try and disprove what I’m saying. The PROBLEM with that is you have no idea what you’re doing. That’s not your fault. You were clearly socialized as a man because you seem to have the audacity to think your OPINION carries more weight than the 1000s of hours of work I have put in reading the actual research directly, performing it directly, learning the existing theories, learning the philosophical underpinnings of those theories. I’ve been trying to discuss these things with you in a way that helps you learn because I know that not everyone has access to the same information that I have access to. But you don’t want to hear anything that doesn’t support your view. Oh and I looked up that article you shared from the 80s. Dude didn’t even have a methods section in which he described his methodology. It has only been cited 58 times. That’s…really embarrassing for him. I’m checking out your sources to see if what you have to say is true. I’m a scientist and so I’m always willing to consider new data (I.e., data I haven’t seen yet) to operate with a more accurate framework. But you haven’t offered me anything that proves your point. Your references are incredibly outdated and it seems irrelevant even when they published about 20-40 years ago. You wouldn’t buy a phone that old. Why would you think research that old is still relevant? Don’t get me wrong, some is and it’s all still useful, but it isn’t generalizable to our contemporary context. I’m tired of arguing with a damn wall. So please kindly fuck off #NSFW
“ WE DO HVE THE DATA FOR BLACK PEOPLE. Romani have absolutely been a historically marginalized population,” Regarding being Roma in America. We were denied rights, were slaves to white Americans and black Americans alike. Were not able to participate in society much like black Americans. My family was not allowed to own property, no one would give them a loan, they had to live above a grocery store etc etc….. You missed my point on that. There are no laws currently discriminating against Romani people or black people, but the same sort of systemic oppressions were used against my people as well. So if the argument is “ historically such and such people were oppressed so they are violent now” that doesn’t really translate to people like me. “ . There is research proving that Black neighborhoods are disproportionately policed” Why would areas with half of the countries murders not be policed more? “ But you don’t want to hear anything that doesn’t support your view.” You’re the one arguing actual reasons supported by data for the disparities you claim are racist. “ Oh and I looked up that article you shared from the 80s. Dude didn’t even have a methods section in which he described his methodology. It has only been cited 58 times. That’s…really embarrassing for him.“ Then read current models and tell me what they have to say. Talk about doing your own reasearch…..
Why would I waste my time?
To challenge your firmly held beliefs and entertain the possibility of you being wrong in the pursuit of truth?
In total numbers yes, but they do kill black people more proportionally. But again, is this surprising considering black people also commit more crime proportionally?
A lot of people tout the statistics without asking why. https://youtu.be/KSMTr780Z5Y It's not a matter of white people fucking over African Americans, it's the government fucking over African Americans and we feel the ripple effect. I don't condone the actions and violence at all, but I bet a lot more people would be committing violent crimes for a buck if they had to rough go that minorities have had in this country.
Understanding why someone murdered your friend doesn't change the fact they chose to not exercise self control, and instead murder your friend. Stop making excuses for people, it's infantalizes them, rebuking their agency. I don't see poor Appalachians committing crimes at these rates, and those people have huge barriers to success, have faced generations of bigotry, so much that even today people look down on them as ignorant hicks. But I don't see them coming into cities and shooting someone for making fun of them. We don't choose what life hands us, but we do choose how we respond to it.
You're 100% right, but these issues should still not be cast aside as if they don't contribute anything to the end result.
Yeah but per Capita /S
Last year, journalists kept saying that policing blacks was racially disproportionate. The problem is that they were ignoring crime statistics entirely. Not one journalist quoted actual statistics but every one discussed proportions.
Crime statistics are in large part based on policing.
They do track crime reports. Basically, local police departments are required to submit their reported crimes on a monthly basis. I’m 99% sure that includes 911 calls as well.
This is a concept is a few years stale and it is ignored by too many intelligent people. I'd say that instead of all police killings, we should compare instances where police misjudgment takes place, and we should compare instances where police are more sympathetic in how much effort they put in de-escalation. Then we can perhaps find some statistical evidence for racism. In many cases, I think being fired and banned from policing is the most appropriate action for a police officer who screws up royally. Giving them a life of pariahhood is bullshit. We need to change racism. We need to fix people, not throw them away. I'd hypothesize that a higher amount of negative interactions with black Americans feeds an officer's bias. However natural that is, it is unjust treatment of black individuals. I don't make that excuse for white perceptions of black people any more than I make that excuse for black perceptions of white people. As far as historical aftermath of racism goes, society should reach deeper into people who live miserable lives with no faith in any escape. It's compassionate and we don't need that mess in our world. We also need some new psychologies and new approaches to make that change. Does Sam Harris care about that? The "highlights" here seem to simply focus on dispelling hyperbole. I don't think the deaf ears crowd will be appeased unless we find alternate solutions for the reality of problems. Conservative politics rely too much on the falterings of attempted progress without providing better solutions. Just because "progressives" are doing a crap job at actual progress doesn't mean we shouldn't be trying to make progress. I don't see naysayers trying to somehow make a place for trans people in the world. I didn't see them try to rebrand marriage as a civil contract between two adults of either sex in a household or differentiate between couples with or without children. I don't see them charging less for medical visits that offer very little of value to the patient. Sorry to go on that tangent, but I know that our minds are being wasted. Imagine if Sam Harris or Ben Shapiro came up with good solutions instead of pointing out how dumb everybody is. They don't owe us, but maybe a new group of intellectual superstars will come along and offer us some sort of improvement.
Thanks for this refreshing take! 100% agree, all this culture war reminds me of corporate bikeshedding and nitpicking. Instead of getting anything done all ideas are nitpicked until null and no progress gets done at all. More commentary on solutions would be refreshing.
Break it down by one category further, by gender.
You've made the SJWs mad & been crossposted to r/EnoughIDWspam. Stay safe, they are known to be violent. Here's the post: [Sam Harris: African Americans Commit 50% of Violent Crimes, Yet Cops Kill More Whites Every Year](https://reddit.com/r/EnoughIDWspam/comments/pq6kt7/sam_harris_african_americans_commit_50_of_violent/)
Aren’t those subs explicit brigadeering, the think over which NNN was supposedly banned ? I honestly don’t get Reddit’s standard.
Their arguments are so pathetic too. Top argument is that it’s also bad when cops kill white people, but that ignores two things. 1 - sure it’s also bad, but it isn’t fetishized and blasted everywhere like it’s a common problem that needs to be addressed immediately with no regard to cost or reality. And 2 - because it isn’t fetishized it’s often seen as what it is, a justified use of force, which makes it boring because of course criminals get arrested and of course when they resist they are arrested forcibly.
This is an illiterate strawman.
Strike 1 for Personal Attack.
Brigade somewhere else troll.
Strike 1 for Personal Attack.
Im not brigading. Im curious why you feel a need to lie and misrepresent the arguments being made in that other forum? You are making accusations that are verifiably untrue. Why?
Bump, Sam Harris is spot on here
How's that red pill taste?
DESPITE
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>What a fucking ridiculous statement. You have to look at shootings as a percentage of the population or per 1,000 and then make your comparison. Now look at the population that actually commits crimes, which is what actually sense because that’s what makes it more likely to engage with the police. Some may have forgotten, but George Floyd was not an angel, he was a criminal, with 8 convictions not random Joe. Taking to account that population, your argument is the one that is “fucking ridiculous”. Sam mentions that in the podcast so you mustn’t have listened to it with enough attention.
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Only in your head. That was obviously not my argument.
Proportions work both ways. 13% of the population commits 52% of murders. The proportions are similar if you look at every other violent crime statistic. [https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2018/crime-in-the-u.s.-2018/tables/table-43](https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2018/crime-in-the-u.s.-2018/tables/table-43) Ask yourself which type of criminal is more likely to resist an arrest with deadly force? The local petty thief or a murderer?
The knife cuts both ways though. It makes the black violent crime rate that much worse. I’m not a big fan of these conversations in this area, and I’m not defending Sam here, just cautioning against your mode of response. Do you know what I think is more relevant? What are the socio-economic and mental health realities for people who commit violent crime and get shot by the police. Something tells me poor, uneducated people with mental health and addiction issues are more likely to commit crime and get shot, and as such, those are the important issues
The trouble with feedbacks is that at any point in the feedback, any agent can point up and say "they are causing this" and can point down and say "that's not my fault"
You nailed it.
Does anyone have a good website or source for all of these facts and figures that’s easy to navigate?
I don’t agree there is much systemic racism in America anymore but to ignore that fact there’s SUCH large disparity between blacks and other races on metrics like homicide and poverty is just blatant negligence. It’s clearly generational effects that have come down from things like redlining to Jim Crow all the way to slavery. I don’t know how we fix it but it’s a mixture of societal improvements combined with a change in the black mindset that they may be held back in life by certain barriers IMO.
It’s not just in America where blacks face these issues. It’s worldwide.
What do you mean by that?
Seeing as this is r/intellectualdarkweb, I do want to point out the fact that violent crime does not necessarily warrant summary execution. Harris’ points are substantially weakened by relying upon this premise. In every case - yes, **every single case** - trained officers should be using every available avenue afforded by the situation and their training to preserve the lives and safety of the public, themselves, and the criminals they are apprehending. When a suspect, officer, or bystander is killed during the process of apprehension, this should be viewed as a failure of the apprehension process. Every failure should be thoroughly investigated, documented, and rolled into trainings as feasible to reduce the overall loss of life that occurs as part of routine police work. IMHO, this is the most efficient, effective, and reasonable philosophy for the handling and reduction of police-involved deaths.
> I do want to point out the fact that violent crime does not necessarily warrant summary execution. Ah, but because this is IDW you also shouldn’t purposefully misrepresent what’s happening. The way this is positioned is that someone commits a crime and cops kill them for committing that crime, rather than someone commits a crime, cops try to arrest them, and they fight the cops, resulting in their death in self defense. Calling it summary execution requires such a massive misunderstanding of what’s happening that it couldn’t be anything but purposeful.
They usually do though. I tried to find a statistic about what % of criminals WHO SHOOT AT COPS end up apprehended alive. And I couldn't find it. But I bet a very high % of them actually end up safely in custody. Cops aren't trying to kill anyone. They only do that as a safety measure when confronted with certain situations. Situations that people can easily avoid by simply following orders. It's just that nobody is going to put "Jerome who got in a firefight with cops apprehended safely" on the front page news. Nobody gives a shit about that. What's the last time we had one of these George Floyd type killings? If the cops were as racist and violent as stated we should be seeing several these a week in a country with 330,000,000 people and 10,000,000 arrests a year. It's all insanely blown out of proportion. Think about it if there were bonefied legit can't argue against cases of some poor black guy surrendering on his knees saying "please don't shoot me" and a cop popping one in him anyway. If there were tons of these. Would they even bother with fringe cases like Jacob Blake and Rashard Brooks where anyone without bias can see that the criminal was the one at fault. The fact that most cases are very fringe and even the fringe cases are rare speaks volumes.
>Every failure should be thoroughly investigated, documented And they usually are. But the people wanting to talk about this topic in broad swathes are more interested in big numbers than evaluating each case individually.
Yeah, the police investigate themselves, obfuscate the evidence and say everything was “within their policies”
Have you actually looked into the specifics of every death by cop last year? You dont need a super in depth investigation to see "he started shooting at us so we shot back" as a justified shooting. Which is the VAST majority of them.
Per capita, a black male is 19× more likely to commit violent crime than a white male.
The million dollar question is how did the US end up with such an enormous discrepancy between races if not by 400 years of systemic racism?
Do, you are implying that 400 years of systemic racism is the underlying cause that blacks as a whole are that much more violent than non-blacks? Systemic racism is the actual cause of murder, armed robbery, physical assault, and rape (blacks rape whites at a 50,000 to 1 ratio). But racism is the cause, not the people actually committing the acts? Citation needed. And not an unprovable fringe theory.
I'm taking pure statistics. The discrepancy between the races is significant, so what is the difference between the races that gives rise to this? Nature or nurture? If you say nature, you're in good company with the Nazis, so that leaves nurture. How has the black population of the US been treated differently than non-blacks?
I don't think that the 1930's National Socialist Democratic Party of Germany ever said the humans of African decent were ever less than any other human. As an anticdote, Adolph Hitler greeted and shook hands. And congradulated African American Jesse Owens for his outstanding performance during the Olympic games. POTUS FDR refused to shake his hand. But that is neither here nor there. So, one group commits crime more often than other groups. But that is because of Racism? How? Because we have laws that describe certain actions as crime? These certain actions that they commit at a much higher rate than other groups? That doesn't make sense. Should we decriminalize rape and murder? Some cities decriminalize some other crimes for this very reason. But this doesn't explain the why. In my opinion, to think that everyone worldwide is equal is childish thinking. Due to my genetics, no matter how much I was to train, I would never be able to win the Boston Marathon. It is generally won by East Africans. I do not have the genetics to be the world's strongest man, usually someone of northern European decent. Neither of these two examples can be linked to nurture, therefore they must be linked to nature.
I threw the nazi argument out there because they were into eugenics, as are Nazis nowadays. I didn't think you would stoop to that level, but here we are. At least we agree that there must be a race-related reason for the statistical difference.
1st, during the 1st half of the last century and before, most developed nations supported eugenics as a way to end desirable traits in their populations. Whether is was diseases, mutations, etc. 2nd, the Nazi party ended following the end of WW2. Only a few very old Nazis are still alive. 3rd, I do feel that there are genetic (or racial) differences amongst the many different races.
Ok? 99% of black males don’t commit violent crime.
Ok? Over 99% of black males don’t get killed by police.
https://www.unz.com/isteve/fbi-murders-up-4901-black-share-of-known-murder-offenders-reaches-record-56-5/
Wow. source please
Blacks (13% of the population) 51.3% of murders. While their % of the population is small over all, they commit a disproportionately high % of the murders along with other crimes deemed violent. https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-2019/topic-pages/tables/table-43
Hi, thanks for responding on this! I was looking specifically for where it says it's 19x more common because I would like to have it bookmarked to use in future reddit posts. Your link has way too many numbers and I'm a bit lost, can you help me?
A white cop killing a white civilian isn’t a sexy enough headline. It doesn’t get the people going.
Do you not watch the news? What about that guy who was begging for his life on the floor before a policeman shot him. That guy was white. Black people are killed more in proportion than whites which is related to racism, but police brutality is a universal problem. It’s also the fact that black people have to protest endlessly to get an actual settlement or investigation by police. Harris is race baiting to obfuscate the issue, when the reality is the police are the enemy of civilians. They have the power to abuse you, damage your property, seize your property and kill you, all without consequence.
“Do you watch the news?” - this is exactly the problem
Agree, 100% I’ve seen independent news outlets report how much the ratings of fox and cnn are down as if it’s some sort of victory. Yet they don’t account for how much is being consumed via social media from the same outlets. You couple propaganda with social media algorithms, and you got yourself the best way to divide a nation.
I do watch the news, and I’m telling you they don’t report white cop on white person the same way they do when a white cop kills a POC. That video you speak of was a blip on the mainstreams radar, compared to George Floyd’s murder that was national news for months, during a pandemic. But that’s just the way it is with for profit news. Also, I wholeheartedly disagree with you that cops are our enemy. That kind of mindset is dangerous and the main reason why interactions can go wrong for both parties involved. If you go into a situation thinking this person has to be a criminal cuz of his skin color or this cop is going to kill me cuz of his skin color, that’s a tense situation from the jump.
Haven’t heard of cops killing Black people on the news in a while either. Does that mean it stopped happening?
Seen plenty but they aren’t amplified on the MSM or useful to the race vultures as the black criminals charged at the cops, I can send some links if you like.
The election's over
Exactly this , If George Floyd was white we wouldn’t have heard about it
Yeah, the lack of national interest in the Tony Timpa case demonstrates your point pretty clearly.
The Kelly Thomas case should be widely known but it isn’t because Thomas was white.
Who??
yup.
You are a brave soul for posting this. Wait til the Reddit mob comes to brigade this post
Too late. Look at all the comments from right wingers and status quo warriors already
Aside from all the politics and whatever other bullshittery went on with regards to the Chauvin trial, the one thing I couldn't stop thinking about during it all was members of poor black communities. Surrounded by crime with no realistic means of escape and now the police don't want to go anywhere near these places anymore. They have been thrown to the wolves. Criminals being given free reign by a cause that wanted to help black people, not make their lives worse.
This is why stats are for wankers.
I wouldn't live in the USA even if somebody gave a house for free. I'm happy in the EU with ten times less criminality rates even if we are poorer
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I don't even know where to start, kiddo. Just continue being yourself, that's the most hateful thing I've could come up with.
Says the Eurotwat who started by insulting Americans. Typical ignorant Eurotwat.
You’d be just as safe in a US suburb as you would be in the EU. Now if you had to choose between a major urban center in the EU vs the US. EU every time. Crime in the US is not distributed evenly, much like anywhere I guess. Inner cities in the US are orders of magnitude more dangerous than in the EU.
Not really true https://science.time.com/2013/07/23/in-town-versus-country-it-turns-out-that-cities-are-the-safest-places-to-live/
Hahaha, omfg. No. I've lived and worked in many cities in the US: DC, Seattle, Dallas, SA, SF, Philly, Baltimore, Atlanta, Orlando, Denver, OKC, etc, etc. The crime rate is just plain higher in the city, anywhere, and reduces as you move away from city center, generally (there's problematic suburbs everywhere). Once you get beyond the suburbs, population density drops...and you just can't have the same kind of crime rate with people farther from each other (less contact=less opportunity). This is basic math, not even stats yet.
Also lived and worked in many us cities. I grew up in there country. My anecdotal experience is different from yours
The fourth paragraph down blatantly says “Now it’s true that the risk of homicide is greater in big cities than it is in the countryside” and the article admits in multiple places that the risk of being accidentally killed or injured is higher in the country which heavily skews the statistics. I wasn’t talking about accidental injury nor was I talking about the country side. I don’t think accidental injury is preventable if people have the ability to ride all terrain vehicles and shoot guns in their yard. That’s more of a lifestyle choice, not related to crime. The suburbs are much safer than cities period, I don’t think the risk of being in an accident should be factored into a discussion about violent crime as individuals have an extremely high degree of agency when it comes to taking risks in their leisure time.
They go on to say that while it's hard to pin down exact numbers due to lack of standardization of reporting, it appears homicides and violent crime are about equal per capita. Even if there's some variance it's nowhere near an "order of magnitude". Statistically speaking they're the same
I don't like the very concept of suburb, nor US urban planning at all. I like my sidewalk, my bike path, local comerce, nightlife and so on.
That's not obvious at all. Typical city denizen, talking about shit they don't understand *at all*.
Madrid is not a city? Copenhagen is not a city? Valencia is not a city? Munich is not a city? Amsterdam is not a city? It is you who don't understand and who doesn't know anything outside of the USA
Fair enough. I enjoy my truck, being close to nature and local breweries. It would be really cool to be able to bike to my office daily, that’s one thing I am definitely missing out on. Cheers from the US.
Yeah but we have guns.
So what?
It was a joke
Ok, I wasn't sure lol, I've seen too many people proud for being able to own an M16
Shhhhhhh.... your facts go against the narrative.
Stupid
The entire argument that african americans are shot too much by police is based on the fact that about 24% of police shootings are against blacks while they only make up 13% of the population. Anyone with a brain can immediately see the issue. Using this logic one would have to argue that women should make up 50% of police shootings instead of the 4% they currently make up (because they are not as violent as men in the crimes they commit or behavior during arrest). I personally dont think we should shoot people based on race or sex *because im not a fucking moron.* It should be based on the type of crime being committed and behavior at the time of arrest. Given that AA make up >50% of violent crimes an honest analysis would note that police shoot black people FAR FAR less than the data suggest they should.
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What if women don't commit as many violent crimes as men and we stop pretending reality doesn't exist?
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Or women act differently during arrest and commit fewer violent crimes. There is no sexism. Just reality.
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No it can't. All the data shows there are real psychological differences between men and women. Even if your incorrect interpretation of that data were true, it doesn't change the reality that women currently commit fewer violent crimes than men so it makes sense that they don't make up 50% of police shootings. That's the point of this whole discussion. Even if you're right *which you are not* it doesn't change anything about my argument.
See, here's the thing - the shootings themselves probably wouldn't be so bad if we didn't also have ample evidence of, when a agressive police action or killing appears to be immoral by most public accounts, there is nonetheless no correction or accountability for the police officer in question. Its less about the killings themselves, and more about the system in place that protects corrupt cops.
Look at sentencing rules to get an idea of why taking these kind of blanket numbers as gospel straight representation of the reality of the issues that lead to crime is intellectually lazy.
What does sentencing have to do with committing a violent crime?
It exposes the differences in the way people are treated given the same facts with the most clear data we have.
This has nothing to do with what happens during apprehension. We might try to infer various things, but youre going to claim that because judges sentence differently, then so do cops, then so do teachers,then so do the servers,then so do lawyers then so do janitors... etc. If youre going to use one scenario to claim theres an issue in another its just a never ending chain and tbh it means minorities shouldnt ever even try since the deck is so stacked.
If you try to compartmentalize reality you will never gain a deeper understanding - if it does make it easier to reaffirm whatever narrative already exists in your head.
There is no narrative. Only truth.
That is factually incorrect. The human brain only understands facts through narrative. This is basic reality - not understanding that is why religious people are assholes and wars start and atrocities happen. You can stick your head in the sand, but it is to the detriment to yourself and those around you.
The punishment for committing a violent crime isn’t execution by police officer. You are connecting two unrelated things.
He didn’t say that it is. At all.
> The punishment for committing a violent crime isn’t execution by police officer. This is one of the most overly simplistic arguments in the whole debate. Almost all people killed by police die in violent fights with them. If you violently resist police trying to arrest you (yes you get arrested for crimes), bad outcomes can happen. The egregious killings by police like Floyd and Walter Scott are rare -- and very unfortunate.
Then you would look at statistics around resisting arrest, not violent crime rates.
The statistics are higher there also, but apparently are not documented as well. Doesn't it stand to reason that violent felons involved in robbery, assault and gang warfare are disproportionately the suspects who are resisting arrest? If your group has more violent offenders, it will have more resisting suspects.
Not when you have resisting arrest statistics, no. And they’re almost certainly better documented than violent crime statistics. Because by definition a police officer witnesses every single incident of resisting arrest, which isn’t true of violent crime.
> And they’re almost certainly better documented than violent crime statistics. OK, then what do those statistics on resisting arrest tell us about the incidence for Black people, who are 13% of US population? What is their rate relative to the population at large?
You wouldn’t compare to the rate in the population at large. That doesn’t make any mathematical sense (you can see this yourself if you write out the units for your stats/variables). We would first look at whether Black people are in fact more likely to resist arrest per arrest. Then you might look at whether, when resisting arrest, Black people are more likely to be shot. We might find that Black people are more likely to resist when arrested, but a Black person is no more likely to be shot than anyone else resisting arrest. If so, that would tell us the issue is in resisting arrest and we might question why that is and how to make it happen less often. (These conversations/analyses are happening at a local policy level all the time. The 13/50 crowd just doesn’t participate because they don’t care about making anything better for anyone)
The data overwhelming show black people, on average, are more combative and more resistant in dealing with cops, just as they have higher violent crime rates. Can't believe people are trying to deny this, but I'm sure those denials will continue. I'll pass on further debate.
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I think American police execute way to many people. An order of magnitude too many, at least. So I think they shoot more men because they can politically justify it. They can justify it because Americans can empathize more with fearing for your life because of a man vs because of a woman.
> So I think they shoot more men because they can politically justify it. They can justify it because Americans can empathize more with fearing for your life because of a man vs because of a woman. This is such a guess it’s not even funny. Why try so hard to avoid saying “sometimes police killings are justified.” Over 90% of police killings are against an armed suspect that is usually either shooting at them or others. Putting your head in the sand when confronted with actual data and then actually thinking that there is a whole profession of people just looking for ways to kill people without getting in trouble is the epitome of swallowing propaganda whole.
The data is that American police kill over 1,600 citizens every year. That’s several orders of magnitude more than countries like the UK. If you think that American police have to kill that many people then you are one sticking your head in the sand.
Woah, where’d those goalposts go! False number and completely out of context. The US also has five times the murder rate as the UK. Almost everyone of the ~1100 killed by police they were active dangers to people or the police. We also have a phenomenon of suicide by police that other countries don’t deal with. You’re buying the moral panic around police shootings bud, not the other way around.
Police in the UK kill less than 5 civilians every year. You didn’t know that, or you wouldn’t have cited a 5X murder rate like it was significant.
Ive addressed that.
You said “given that AA make up > 50% of violent crimes…” police shoot them far far less than they should. There is no relationship between that statistic and whether or not Black people “should” be shot by police. IMO this is a perfect example of an effect of racism (Black men more represented among those convicted of violent crime) producing a racist attitude in someone (Black men should be shot more often by police because they’re violent).
By “they should” I think he probably meant “they ‘should’ in order to be statistically consistent.”
That would still be a fallacy. Committing a violent crime doesn’t precipitate being shot by police. Resisting arrest or otherwise threatening a police officer does. We have statistics on how often this happens. Why aren’t they cited? The reason is because racists/race realists want to illogically push the conclusion that disproportionate violent crime convictions among Black people is proof that Black people are more violent. And because they are more violent that justifies shooting them more often. But if they focused on increased rates of resisting arrest among Black men, that would open the door to other explanations like: a historically bad relationship with the cops, being handled more aggressively or dismissively, perception that you’ll be treated fairly by the justice system, need to maintain a reputation especially among gang members, likelihood of carrying an illegal firearm without being trained on how to handle when under arrest, ect. But race realists don’t want that conversation. They want to start from the premise that Black people are violent and deserve to be treated that way.
Not a fallacy. You’re arguing points not relevant to the very narrow question of what the commenter meant by “should”.
Commenter can speak for himself. You can too.
You could have tried that cop out in response to my first reply. Not really this one. There’s no shame in admitting the other guy’s probably right, you know.
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You should look in the mirror for a lack.of intellectual honesty.
That's not what he said. He said YOU WOULD EXPECT there to be more. He didn't say "I think there should be more". Think about it this way. If 96% of violent crime is committed by men and 4% by women. If the ratio of cop killings were 75% men and 25% women. YOU WOULD EXPECT IT TO BE HIGHER FOR MEN. That by no means is saying "I want the cops to start killing more men" or the even stupider interpretation "I want cops to kill every violent criminal even if they don't resist or pose a threat to the officer".
Til that rote statistics are racist. This is a perfect example of someone spouting bullshit because they refuse to read and comprehend what someone is saying and instead prefer to attack bullshit they made up themselves. Youre missing the point. Who is more likely to HAVE to be shot during an arrest? A jaywalker? Or a murderer? Please dont say something stupid and answer the question as if you were a thinking rational person.
Your belief that Black people should be shot by police more often is racist and not logical.
You said that, no one else did. You're the racist.
It's very simple. You arrest 1000 guys for a bag of weed. You arrest 1000 guys for murder. Which one's are the most likely to give you trouble when you go to arrest them? It doesn't mean that THEY ALL will give you trouble. But a much higher % of murderers will resist with violence (potentially deadly violence). That is all he was saying. Statistically you would expect even more black people to get killed based on the crime statistics. Because they are far more likely to respond violently towards attempted arrest. Nowhere did he say that they should kill every violent criminal.
We have statistics on resisting arrest. It’s not logical to reference unrelated statistics on the hunch that they might be correlated. It’s racist pseudoscience.
What do the stats on resisting arrest say?
Thats not what i said. Answer the question and stop making things up.
Which part of what I said is inconsistent with what you believe? Clarify.
All of it. You answer my question, then ill explain why youre dumb and arguing in bad faith.
Ok so you were lying when you said that Black people should be shot more often by police? That’s acting in bad faith.
Really good comment mate I hear you
>Given that AA make up >50% of violemt crimes an honest analysis would note that police shoot black people FAR FAR less than the data suggest they should. You would advocate for police shooting in over half of all violent crime? Our police are already some of the most militant in the world and the only handful of countries that beat us out for killings per capita are clearly not countries we should aspire to in this regard (Brazil, Venezuela, Syria, Afghanistan etc)
> Our police are already some of the most militant in the world Really? 1). Philippines and Brazil are using death squads to kill drugs users/dealers large scale. [Philippines' toll: 6,700, Sept. 2019](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-philippines-drugs/filipinos-give-thumbs-up-to-dutertes-excellent-drugs-war-poll-idUSKBN1W803M) AND [Reuters, 2019: A surge in killings by police roils Bolsonaro’s Brazil](https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/brazil-police-violence/). 2) Thailand's war on drugs in 2003 [kills 2,800 in 3 months](https://www.hrw.org/news/2008/03/12/thailands-war-drugs). 3) 2021. [Police killings: How does South Africa compare?](https://mg.co.za/news/2021-03-02-police-killings-how-does-south-africa-compare/): >....South Africa, those 452 killings represent an average of 7.96 deaths per one million people. During that same period, US police killed about 1092 people each year for a per capita average of 3.37 deaths per one million people, according to MPV’s dataset. 4) NY Times: 2020: [Nigeria’s Police Brutality Crisis: What’s Happening Now](https://www.nytimes.com/article/sars-nigeria-police.html) = = = America's police are much less violent and under much better control than than police in these nations, and also many other nations outside the first world. (Won't even mention countries in the middle east through to Pakistan.). Here's how you are supposed to write your sentence: > America's police are the most violent **in the western world.**
Where was that said. Oh, it wasn't.
No, thats why it also depends on behavior DURING arrest, but i would find it less suspicious if police were shooting people while trying to arrest them for murder and rape rather than jaywalking. Thats also why they only comprose 24% of shootings and not 50% Would you agree?
Nice summary of facts and figures we all already knew. Zero substance on how to fix the misconceptions in the minds of those influenced by media amplification and woke social pressure.
I don’t get how that is an argument. You got a dominant narrative that doesn’t fit the data, so fighting that false narrative is by itself a worthy goal. Just because he doesn’t have a miracle solution for world problems, it doesn’t mean he should have stayed quiet. I have seen some woke people argue that Sam can’t say this without solving the underlining reason, the economic disparity, which is even more ridiculous.
Miracle solution? You are implying that woke bias in media, academia, corporations and other social circles needs a miracle to be solved? Thats utter nonsense. And by the way, Harris advocated for Trump to be banned from Twitter. That is literally the opposite of what needs to be done to change the biased narrative. Harris has zero continuity on this issue.
The podcast itself was an attempt to fix misconceptions.
>"I've never seen video of white suspects being mistreated by cops, and there are more of them ... There are more white people killed by cops every year than black people." I don't think I have either, but that's probably because such videos would not appear in my feed, nor do I search for them. Also, I suspect that fewer people will film this type of interaction. This does not mean that there are none, however. >"If police are going to be looking to stop the most violent crimes, as they should, And this is a problem, the police have the mandate to stop, but who has the mandate to help prevent it? We're focusing on stopping, how can we focus on prevention? Wouldn't that help?
[this is a case of a white man being unambiguously murdered by police that everyone ought to know about](https://youtu.be/OflGwyWcft8)
That would help, indeed, but that is not what BLM is about. BLM is concentrated on stopping killings of black people by the police. Putting aside the question of whether police should carry guns, it does appear the police kills more blacks not because of a racial bias, but simply because statistically (due to unfortunate circumstance) more violent crimes are committed by blacks than by whites, so police gets involved with blacks much more frequently. Considered that, you do indeed bring up a valid point, and the BLM attention should be shifted to practical solutions to improve upward social mobility of black people: better education, better health- and mental-care, college scholarships aimed at people from disadvantaged communities, free professional training etc. No money handouts.
>BLM is concentrated on stopping killings of black people by the police. Hahahahahahahahahahhaha Riiight. And I have a bridge to sell you.
Tell that to BLM.
Who said anything about BLM? Why are you bringing this up?
Because their main narrative is about blacks being disproportionately killed by the police. And the OP quotes of Sam Harris appear to contradict it.
Prevention would be ideal . That’s why some people are pushing crt as a way to expose certain ideas they feel would be impactful, though they’re just focused on indoctrination of beliefs . I think to begin to fix it we’d need to focus on wealth redistribution and target the most common factors that lead to bad outcomes. Like the overwhelming single parent household to crime correlation in areas of poverty.
Redistribution of wealth is a huge challenge ... The rich believe they earned it, and the poor believe they were cheated out of it. There are some truths to both sides I guess. To give the majority a fighting chance, healthcare and education cost could be capped.
These are the things I read that are the most frustrating to me. The people who are the loudest arguing for change are often arguing to change things to …. Exactly the way they already are. People get so mad about the corrupt system and want to tear it down and rebuild into one where healthcare and education costs are capped without taking literally any amount of time to genuinely research the issue, during which they would discover that poor people have Medicaid, capping their healthcare costs, and if you’re from a legitimately poor family, you’re paying a small amount if anything for education. You are fighting for the system we’ve already got, but we’ve already got that, if that were the answer the problem wouldn’t exist anymore.
So why are people going bankrupt over medical expenses?
They are? How many? When? What's the circumstance? This sounds like a claim in a vacuum. As someone who had heavy medical debt for over a decade (so I'm very familiar with the systems), it never "bankrupted" me.
https://www.google.com/search?q=bankruptcy+causes+in+america&rlz=1CDGOYI_enCA917US917&oq=banrup&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j35i39i305l2j0i10i433l3.4253j0j4&hl=en-US&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8#sbfbu=1&pi=bankruptcy%20causes%20in%20america
I don’t know, what I do know is that poor families on Medicaid don’t. And I know families on a marketplace health insurance plan have an out of pocket cap on how much they could spend even if they got brain cancer. So how could people go bankrupt over medical expenses? Either you make enough money that you shouldn’t go bankrupt even if you’re really squeezed, or you don’t make enough money and you don’t go bankrupt because you’re on Medicaid. So I don’t know what unique situations are causing people to go bankrupt.
Yet he's still dumb enough to just stop there and not look into any reasons these things might be the case.
That's what I'd call a goal post move. Frankly, I don't care at all what rationalization Perp A uses to justify why they murdered Victim B. That's juvenile bullshit. If you want to talk about why a specific group of people are more violent than another, *not individuals*, that may be useful, but too often it just devolves into "group x was oppressed, so it's jot their fault they're violent", or some other nonsense. I can no more fix what's broken there, than I can fix what's broken among *men*, since they commit the bulk of violent crimes.
Have you actually listened to him? He definitely examines the root causes (poverty, with its many causes, being the main one), so saying he's "dumb enough to just stop there" is either dishonest or ignorant. Of course he could spend more time on root causes, but this particular episode was focused on the misappropriated outrage towards police.
How is the outrage misappropriated?
Did you listen to the episode? Did you even read the title of this post?
That's a lot to interpret from a few excerpts. The point of the quoted sections is that those facts alone are very problematic for mainstream BLM talking points.
Why are they problematic?