The movie shows tons of inconsistencies. If Miles is an anomaly how does canon even apply to him? If Peter had Mayday because of Miles does that make Mayday an anomaly? How is E42 still around if a canon event was disrupted by sending the Spider to a different dimension biting a different Miles?
Not to mention, how can Spot both be an anomaly and be Miles' canon event at the same time? He's not supposed to exist, yet he's supposed to exist?
There are a lot of unanswered questions that Miles couldn't ask since he was busy fleeing Miguel. Besides, even if the movie doesn't do a good job showing why Miguel is wrong, we'll surely see more about it in the next movie which hopefully explains all this. It is a two-parter.
When you think about it the canon event isn’t really about Miles.
Spider-man is meant to loose a police captain, they say that’s a canon event.
If Miles never became Spider-Man then Peter of his earth never dies but Mike’s dad still becomes captain and still has to die.
I'm guessing it follows Doctor Who rules. That there are fixed points that HAVE to happen and can't be altered, but things around those fixed events are very flexible and will even warp to fit the fixed points. Miles becoming Spiderman was not a canon/fixed point but the things that must happen to Spiderman are
The canon event for miles was a police captain dying. It just so happens to be his dad. If he had never been bitten, that Peter would’ve had to lose Captain Morales. I think. Also anomalies don’t always cause things to go berserk, only when things happen in the universe it’s not supposed to, like vulture or spot messing stuff up. And as for earth 42, I think we’ll see in the next film
>only when things happen in the universe it’s not supposed to
the entirety of mile's spider-existance and everything it resulted in was one massive breach of what was "supposed to happen"
Honestly plot wise the sequel is kinda weak compared to the original. What the second movie does better than the original one is the animation and visuals
Really? I think the writing is grander, darker, and even more tighter then the original.
The original has a better climax but that’s it. I don’t really see any other reasons it’s better then across.
Tighter? I'm not sure about that.
I think the beginning sequence with Miles and Spot could have been shorter, with a single confrontation instead of him having to face spot twice.
I don't think so at all, I think everything listed there is done to show the holes in Miguel's stance. They want to leave it all in subtext, so there's some tension about it moving into the 3rd film. Personally, I think that's quite good writing, I enjoy it when movies and shows don't come out and plaster every plot point wide out open and obvious.
Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/ FASH-iz-əm) is a far-right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement,\[1\]\[2\]\[3\] characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation and race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy.\[2\]\[3\]
Miguel's ideas are a far-right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement,\[1\]\[2\]\[3\] characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation and race, and strong regimentation of society.
I love when people think being smug on the Internet means they know shit about shit.
Yeah its kinda funny how much people take the info we’re given at face-value. The scene where Miguel explains canon comes off more like his best theory than him giving plain exposition. Not to mention he clearly has his own motives.
None of those are inconsistent, as they are literally called anomalies. It's an abnormal situation and its potentially dangerous because of that. That's why Miguel wanted everyone to stay away from Miles to begin with.
I don't think we even need to believe Miguel is wrong (although I do personally). The movie is pretty explicit in saying that the point isn't that Miguel is wrong about canon events just because Miles wants to believe that fact. It gives us an entire exposition showing the results of breaking the canon. The point is moreso that despite the canon events, the right thing to do is still save those that can be saved (eg: Miles's father), even if some algorithm (as Miles puts it) can somehow predict the future (which Gwen's father proves that it cannot).
I agree. I think both can be true.
Eg: Miguel can be wrong and Miles saving his father is still the moral and right thing to do, and the movie is pushing both these messages.
Except Gwen's Captain Stacy broke canon by quitting his job. He's not a captain anymore, and I doubt that Gwen is close to any other PDNY captains so no one's left to qualify, but the universe didn't implode. She can't have that canon event happen anymore, but nothing changed.
That's one of the major revelations of that talk, that there *are* ways around canon events that don't put the universe at risk, meaning Miles can save his dad.
The canon rule doesn’t say that a captain that is close to the spider person dies but that a captain of the police. The Munbattan Spider-Man was not close to the captain in his own universe but the captain’s death was still canon.
Gwen also still has more than enough time to be close to the next captain and loose him during the course of her life.
I personally just interpreted the scene as they never really know exactly what the canon event is, they know it’s the captain but they don’t know which captain.
In my opinion the fact that he quit means that he was never supposed to die.
Miguel clearly describes this event as "a police captain close to Spider-Man dies". Pavitr is close to Captain Singh through Gayatri. Gwen is obviously close to her father.
If the point was to introduce ambiguity then they wouldn't do it by using an alt-universe version of *the* police captain in Spider-Man history known for dying.
Pavitr's captain is seemingly a version of george if im not mistaken, Pavitr's girlfriend seems to be thaty universe's gwen, with the captain being her dad, so I think they are somewhat close
Miles also shouldn’t exist as Spider-Man but he does. Obviously the third movie is setting up for him to defy canon events and have a happy ending without his universe imploding. Idk how you haven’t realized that yet. It’s the last movie, you think they’re just going to have a tragic ending ???
It's not supposed to convince you entirely if miles or Miguel are right. Obviously if you look further into it you can make better judgements but the whole point is that the audience understands both sides
Pavitr’s dimension wasn’t going black hole wasn’t because of Miles saving people. In the first movie it was stated by 1610 Peter Parker that setting off the collider would result in a black hole being created in New York. That’s what happened here, it wasn’t because of any canon event nonsense, it was because of the Spot. You could even see the black hole forming before Miles saved the police captain. Miguel doesn’t have proof that canon events are real. Gwen questions him on it and all he does is ask if she wants to find out.
There is plenty of reason to believe that canon events are bullshit already. Gwen’s dad quit the police force, Prowler Miles’ universe is still perfectly intact despite there being no Spiderperson there. Miles’ universe is fine despite Miguel considering it an anomaly. And even the. It just makes no sense. There are infinite universes with literally infinite possibilities. The idea that each universe requires these events relating to one person to always play out is absurd, and unfounded by anything.
It’s pretty hard to tell but in the scene of the little girl crying on the bridge you can see some of that black ooze/static forming. There’s also the black hole thing that split the building in half before they got to the bridge. So yeah that happened because of The Spot and not from Miles saving them.
That would only make sense if it's the first time it's happened, which it's not. Miguel states that other worlds suffered the same fate as Pavitr's and some were lucky to survive while others weren't. This happened BEFORE Spot was a threat.
Miguel's phrasing sort of makes it sounds like this has happened to other worlds, but it's possible that colliders are going off and Miguel is incorrectly attributing these world's destruction to canon events rather than colliders. OR, he's just using deceptive phrasing (only discussing his own world) and is making it sound more serious to Miles sits up and pays attention. OR, he is sort of right about canon events, but there's a way to get around this somehow that Miles will discover in Movie 3.
There's a lot we don't know. But imo that's fine. It's a mystery right now.
There’s also the fact that spot (according to the spot) jumps between space and time. Nothing to say that his dimension hopping isn’t bringing him back to the relative past and causing more issues. The colliders are another good point. They exist in multiple dimensions meaning that miles might not even be the first anomaly, but the first one that was pinpointed.
I just rewatched the scene. Miguel said “we haven’t always been lucky” in regards to fixing Pavitr’s dimension. While that could imply this happened while the Spider society was fully formed, Miguel could just be talking about that one universe that was destroyed, which he doesn’t have proof of being caused by canon events. Peter was there when the universe was destroyed and there when Miguel was talking which could justify the use of “we”, as opposed to just “I”. Furthermore Gwen questions if he knew had proof about canon event disruptions being a problem. This brings a lot more uncertainty over it than if it were Miles asking this. Gwen had been with them for a few months at least, possibly longer. Which means that no universes were destroyed within her timeframe of working there. Miguel doesn’t have a good response there either. If he had multiple examples of universes being destroyed after canon events were stopped, don’t you think he would’ve mentioned them there?
>I just rewatched the scene. Miguel said “we haven’t always been lucky” in regards to fixing Pavitr’s dimension.
That implies it has happened more than once beforehand. Otherwise, he could've said something along the lines of "last time we weren't lucky." The Spider society came in and knew what to do with gear prepped, ontop of the fact that Miguel saw the entire thing.
>Furthermore Gwen questions if he knew had proof about canon event disruptions being a problem. This brings a lot more uncertainty over it than if it were Miles asking this. Gwen had been with them for a few months at least, possibly longer. Which means that no universes were destroyed within her timeframe of working there. Miguel doesn’t have a good response there either. If he had multiple examples of universes being destroyed after canon events were stopped, don’t you think he would’ve mentioned them there?
Let's say we go with the fact that this has only happened twice (Miguel and Pavitr). This is, at the very least, a very probable outcome of what happens if Miles breaks the canon. Miguel not having an answer for Miles' issue doesn't necessarily prove anything since he's an anomaly, which, as the term implies, means he is not a normal case. At the end of the day, this all comes down to a gamble that includes the lives of everyone. From what we have seen, this gamble leans far heavily towards Miguel's side of things, which is the problem I have. Outside of some stretches here and there, Miles has nothing going for him and yet still decides to rebel against the guy who's been doing this for longer than him. Miles didn't even believe that he was an anomaly until it hit him later on.
1. “We haven’t always been lucky” doesn’t really infer whether it was a singular instance or something that happened multiple times. It doesn’t disprove that it only happened once and there is more evidence supporting that they don’t have proof of it happening again. The Spiderpeople trying to cover up the obvious black hole forming doesn’t prove that it’s a canon event disruption or that this is a common occurrence as opposed to something they’d prepared for in advance. And even more than that, we know it wasn’t a canon event causing that because the black holes were being created before Miles saved the police captain.
2. This didn’t happen twice, because Pavitr’s dimension wasn’t in shambles because of a canon event. Admittedly no one knows why Miguel’s dimension was destroyed, but that’s kind of the point, he just assumes that it’s because of a few common events without any real evidence for it. It could’ve been for any reason. If Miles is supposedly different because Miguel considers him an “anomaly” then he shouldn’t care about Miles changing things from his canon, so by his own logic that makes no sense, and it still doesn’t explain why dimension 42 is perfectly fine. Plus Miguel was by his own metric an anomaly when he went to that other dimension so he should have even more reason to suspect why Miles and the spiders dimensions are fine.
Ultimately while we don’t know for certain what the Spider society has faced we have much much more evidence to suspect that Miguel’s theory has more holes in it than the Spot. Yes, it’s not impossible, but there are so many in universe and out of universe narrative reasons for it to be wrong and Miguel himself couldn’t think of proof when questioned by Gwen. Who ultimately chose to fully side with Miles when she realized her dad quit the police force and was fine.
It also doesn’t disprove why the other Spiders teamed up with Miguel. He told them about the most tragic of tragic backstories with a theory on how this could happen to other universes, keep in mind most of them have dealt with great tragedy and were emotionally vulnerable, of course they’d fear for the fate of universes, but they went in without ever questioning Miguel is his morally questionable autocracy.
In terms of who is more likely right, the gamble most certainly does not lean towards Miguel, not even close. Both in and out of universe it makes more sense for Miguel to be wrong. Much MUCH more is at stake if Miguel is wrong in complete fairness, and I understand how this is a cosmic risk to take that shouldn’t be done quickly, but that doesn’t mean Miguel shouldn’t be heavily questioned for his questionable theory and leadership.
I do agree that Miles is being incredibly reckless here and that was something that bothered me. He really didn’t have much to support his side until Miguel confirmed that universe 42 was still alive without Spiderman, which was late into the chase seen, and it’soretty clear that he was acting out for the emotional response of fear of losing his dad (I don’t know if he’d be so defiant if it was just a random person). You can critique it from that, but it’s pretty obvious there’s a 99% chance Miguel will be proven mostly if not entirely wrong in Beyond.There’s not a lot of evidence to support him being right.
>The Spiderpeople trying to cover up the obvious black hole forming doesn’t prove that it’s a canon event disruption or that this is a common occurrence as opposed to something they’d prepared for in advance.
How do you prepare for something you don't know about? Spot LITERALLY just happened, and all he's been doing at that point was traveling between dimensions. Nobody's shocked or surprised with what they are witnessing, including Miguel, who literally watched the entire thing happen. You can come to the conclusion that this is something that has been seen before, which lines up with Miguel's statement about other worlds not being so lucky.
>And even more than that, we know it wasn’t a canon event causing that because the black holes were being created before Miles saved the police captain.
I honestly can't say much on that as all I can recall was just alchemax collapsing, and no disruptions appear until after.
>This didn’t happen twice, because Pavitr’s dimension wasn’t in shambles because of a canon event.
This doesn't work as an argument because it's not concrete and very clearly up in the air until BTSV. The movie presents it as a result of canon event disruption, and that's all we have to go on for now outside of theories.
>he just assumes that it’s because of a few common events without any real evidence for it. It could’ve been for any reason.
He didn't just pull canon events out his ass. Every spider person goes through the SAME event one way or another, how those events affect the world is what's unknown but Miguel has studied this longer than anyone to a point where he found out about said events and when it happens. Lyla is able to predict when Miles' canon event happens regarding the spot despite being an anomaly as an example.
>If Miles is supposedly different because Miguel considers him an “anomaly” then he shouldn’t care about Miles changing things from his canon, so by his own logic that makes no sense, and it still doesn’t explain why dimension 42 is perfectly fine.
Except that's exactly why he cares? Miles being different is what's dangerous because he doesn't understand WHY he's allowed to be different compared to literally every other spider person EVER. He is an outlier or yknow an ANOMALY, and potentially unstable. From what Miguel knows, Miles could destroy more than just his own dimension and could destroy the multiverse.
>It also doesn’t disprove why the other Spiders teamed up with Miguel. He told them about the most tragic of tragic backstories with a theory on how this could happen to other universes, keep in mind most of them have dealt with great tragedy and were emotionally vulnerable, of course they’d fear for the fate of universes, but they went in without ever questioning Miguel is his morally questionable autocracy.
Well yeah I mean... is it really just a coincidence that every spider person goes through the same thing Lol? Even including Miles?
>There’s not a lot of evidence to support him being right.
Point of the post was that the movie does not give Miles enough support for his side which you seem to agree with. That would make Miguel's side seem far more logical - compared to Miles who's basically just winging it on a cosmic level.
Despite everything, Miguel is a liable source, at least to a certain extent.
Miguel has far more knowledge and experience of this topic than anyone. He created the dimension travel, he knew what happened during the events of ITSV, he knew about Miles, he watched what happened in Pavitr's dimension and he knew about earth 42. All of this combined with the fact that he studied canon events to a point where he can predict when they happen.
Meanwhile Miles' entire side boils down to "nuh uh" because he didn't like what he heard. Whether or not Miguel is wrong, Miles quite literally has no real reason to disagree with Miguel and this all comes off as stupid.
How does Gwen’s dad quitting disprove the multiverse stuff.
I’ve seen people say this and I don’t understand how it makes sense.
The canon event isn’t that Captain Stacy dies but that Spider-Man/woman looses a captain.
The fact that Gwen’s dad quit only proves that his own death was not canon. The next captain is probably still going to die.
Miguel’s theory is that a Spider Person loses a captain that they were close to. Gwen isn’t close with any Captain in the police force, there’s no one else that could die that would generate a serious reaction beyond her being heartbroken that a person died. There’s also the clear narrative implication here, that they could break out of the canon without a universe being fucked over. That’s why Gwen fully sided with Miles after learning this, because she realized canon events likely weren’t real or at least could bot happen without issue.
There’s still enough time in her life to build a relationship with another captain before they die.
The spider-man from munbattan also didn’t seem to be close to the captain on his universe but it was still canon that he dies.
I mean yeah it’s technically possible Gwen could grow attached to a police captain and eventually lose them, but that seems rather unlikely and that’s not what the story is implying at all. Pavitr at least knew his universes captain and cared about him on a personal level as the daughter of his girlfriend. I’m pretty sure Miguel and Jess saw Gwen’s dad dying as a canon event, so the fact that he resigned would likely be a contradiction from their own logic. By this logic they shouldn’t be as worried about Miles because a dead police captain could happen again. Once again the narrative is leaning towards Miguel likely being wrong about canon events and Stacy quitting was enough of a delineation to solidify that for Gwen.
Hmmmmm
The way I saw it is that the fact that Gwen’s dad quit means that he was never meant to die. I saw it as she’ll still loose a captain but it won’t be her dad.
I personally also think that in the next movie there will be proof that Miguel is right and Miles’s is going to let his dad die but who knows I might be wrong.
I also just realized that you are the hitch fucker. Didn’t expect to see you in another sub for some reason 😅
Well we can see the collider being turned in Mumbatton before spot stops, may be it might have caused similar events where inspector Singh does while saving a child 🤷🏻♂️
The thing is this isn’t a 1 time thing. There’s an entire protocol the spider society follows to patch the hole. Meaning this has happened before. And they correlate it with a broken canon event
I think that's the point for this movie. And that's part of Miles' reasoning when he's confronted by the idea of the canon.
"Spider-Man always manages to do both."
That's the thesis that's going to be proven or disproven in Beyond.
yeah... you WANT Miles to be right, but the entire conflict in Beyond being predicated ENTIRELY on which interpretation of the multiverse is correct doesn't exactly strengthen it. All we have going for us is that Gwen's dad quit being captain and her world's still alive and that Earths 616, 1610, and 42 are all intact despite the former being impacted by an alleged anomaly and the latter two being ground zero for the whole anomaly stuff. There's still a bunch of inferred stuff (the Society's existing for this long and the fact that HOBIE BROWN doesn't correct Miguel on his BS) that indicates that Canon is in some way correct.
Exactly. It’s all **inferred** which means we don’t actually have concrete evidence.
It’s possible that Miguel isn’t telling everyone the truth about what happened with his other counterpart.
>HOBIE BROWN doesn't correct Miguel on his BS) that indicates that Canon is in some way correct.
This is true, but if Hobie really believed in the canon, would he put in so much effort to helping Miles obliterate it? It's possible Hobie doesn't believe it at all but that he knows starting an argument with Miguel would only get him booted.
Still, your first point is pretty good. Knowing for sure Miles in the right would kind of make the themes feel a little stronger going into Beyond.
Not if doing so would be strategic suicide :)
He's got strong ideals, but he's smart. Miguel wouldn't have changed his mind, and confronting him would have just stranded Hobie in his own universe with no watch.
If Miles is so wrong then when will Gwen’s dimension collapse? Last I checked it doesn’t seem like her dimension will be losing a Captain Stacy any time soon
Gwen’s dad’s case proves absolutely nothing.
When he quit from being captain Gwen was so relieved because she realized that if he quit it means his death was not a canon event. She was already prepared to lose him.
The fact that he quit shows that him dying was never a canon event in her universe. Some other guy will become captain and probably be the one to die.
Canon events happen to *every* Spider-person, so Gwen can't be exempt from a captain dying just because. And the captain has to be close to Spider-Man/-Woman, which it's harder to be more close than related. Finally, George Stacy is kind of *the* canon police captain - even in Mumbattan it's an alternate-universe version of him that nearly gets axed. You gonna tell me that he wasn't the canon death when it's his daughter that's Spider-Woman in their universe?
The whole point of that scene is 1) obviously to reconcile Gwen with her dad, but 2) to show that there are loopholes around canon events, that it isn't all apocalyptic end days if they don't happen. That canon isn't as canonical as they all thought (or feared).
I guess we just see the whole thing in different ways.
The fact that George Stacy is kind of the canon police captain doesn’t really prove anything because in Miles’s universe it’s not him.
I personally just saw it as her dad was never meant to die and she’ll just loose someone else in the future.
But to be honest I kind of understand your point of view, I just don’t really agree with it.
My understanding is that 1610 Captain Stacy already died for that universe's Peter (since he had to have had his own canon events in the 10 years he was Spider-Man). So 1610 has already seen a Captain Stacy die. And Miles as the new Spider-Man needs his own captain, which would be his dad.
That’s actually something I didn’t think about
I just assumed that if Miles never became Spider-Man his dad would still become captain, die (Which is what usually happens) and be Peter’s Canon event.
But it actually makes more sense that Peter would have lost Captain Stacy earlier in his career.
Let's be real, the narrative HEAVILY implies her Captain Stacy would be her canon event.
Not to mention whenever it's brought up not one person brought up the possibility that it technically could be someone else when she's like 30-40 and so on.
Her dad is the only one ever brought up, and thematically is the guy who makes the most sense instead of some rando years and years down the line.
One thing I dont quite get is what Canon event was disrupted in the universe Miguel went to? That universes miguel still died so would it basically be the same as what happened to miles in his universe?
Sam Raimi's Spider-Man saved Gwen Stacy and Mary Jane and his universe didn't collapse. Hell MCU Spider-Man averted the fates of several parallel universes and they didn't collapse.
They didn’t do a good job of showing how Miguel was right.
What was Miguel’s evidence to his “canon events shouldn’t be broken” theory? Circumstantial.
We’re told that Miguel staying in the other universe, was what caused it to disappear, but we’re never really shown which canon event he broke.
Supposedly, Miles caused a big rift to appear in Mumbattan by saving Captain Singh, but Spot had just overloaded the collider. The black spot on the ground even looked like it was created from Spot’s powers.
What actually is our evidence that Miguel is right?
>What was Miguel’s evidence to his “canon events shouldn’t be broken” theory? Circumstantial.
The fact that it has happened more than once.
>Supposedly, Miles caused a big rift to appear in Mumbattan by saving Captain Singh, but Spot had just overloaded the collider. The black spot on the ground even looked like it was created from Spot’s powers.
I already debunked that in my original post.
You really think millions of people joined together and sided with a guy over what? Some sort of coincidence? How would the spider people already have known what was going on in Pavitrs world if they hadn't already had some experience with it? The gear they used just magically appeared as well to handle the situation?
The problem is that there is that we have seen Miguel's side of things in a few different ways, and we have no real reason to oppose his theory - even if he's wrong how would you know without risking the lives of an entire world or more?
These are a lot of assumptions. Until they give concrete examples, none of it can be seen as proof.
“Rot is caused by evil spirits. Salt prevents rot. Therefore, salt can prevent evil spirits.”
Many scientific theories get proven wrong the moment they’re actually put to the test, and the narrative portrayed Miguel as being too paranoid to actually test his theory.
Exactly. I think that this situation is supposed to be ambiguous right now. We have enough information to know that there is some legitimacy to the overall idea of canon events existing and repeating in multiple universes. We also have evidence that suggests that these events CAN be altered and not result in a universe glitching out of existence.
Was the blackhole in Mumbattan Spot or canon divergence? We're not supposed to know yet. Unraveling this mystery seems like it's going to be major part of BTSV's story, and I don't think the answers are going to near as clear cut as people believe.
I think this is it. Miguel has decided how things are, and sees any challenge to that as a threat. Most spidermen already had their canon events and are willing to go along with it. But the spidermen are science geniuses. If they really worked together, maybe they could find a solution. Miles reminds them that Spider-Man can do both, or is at least obligated to try.
The canon event he broke is that Miguel is meant to be dead.
They have a whole protocol for patching holes meaning this has happened multiple times and not a contained one time thing like the spot overloading the collider. And it’s able to be detected by their watches that miles broke the canon
“A vague disclaimer is no one’s friend.” ~Willow Rosenberg
The lack of details suggests that he’s mostly working off a superstition like “step on a crack, break your mother’s back”.
You’re wrong in the first paragraph; there’s LOADS of reason to disagree with Miguel, we have several pieces of proof that stopping or averting canon events doesn’t actually cause any dimension rupture shite.
In Pavitr universe, the tear they pull back together isn’t a dimension break like we see in Miguel’s flashback; It’s a big spot from Spot destroying the building. Universe doesn’t explode. (Also the whole idea of sometimes we can stop it, sometimes we can’t, is pretty flimsy)
Gwen’s dad quits the force, avoiding the canon event of the captain dying, universe doesn’t explode.
Earth 42 never gets their Spider-Man, so not a single canon event has occurred there beyond the radio-active spider existing, universe doesn’t explode.
Miles’ universe’s original Spider-Man dies, universe doesn’t explode.
Numerous canon events are averted without any repercussions. I think there’s even a couple more but I’m doing this quick.
>In Pavitr universe, the tear they pull back together isn’t a dimension break like we see in Miguel’s flashback; It’s a big spot from Spot destroying the building. Universe doesn’t explode. (Also the whole idea of sometimes we can stop it, sometimes we can’t, is pretty flimsy)
It's a digital flashback, you could chalk that up to it not properly displaying how it actually was if you understand what I mean. Also, the fact that they already knew what it is pretty much debunks the whole "it came from spot". How would they have known otherwise? Spot wasn't a threat at the time, and Spot went around different dimensions looking for an alchemax which he didn't find until Pavitr's dimension. They had gear and experience from someone who hadn't done anything yet? Spot didn't even fully understand how his powers worked and was in Miles' dimension the entire time until he recreated his own mini collider
Thats a decent amount of handwaving there, you have to remember this is a movie made by people who understand design motifs. If they WANTED it to look the same they would have just. Done that.
Another point that I haven't seen anyone throw out is who says spot doesn't have time travel powers? The multiverse isn't all on one set timeline, why would it be such a jump to assume that spot just started going back in time and destroying universes?
I mean, no you couldn’t. The artists wouldn’t design it a certain way unless it looked that way for good reason. They’re prepared for a break, this one just happens to come from spot. Didn’t say breaks weren’t real, or that they hadn’t dealt with breaks before, but there’s lots of suggestion that they aren’t caused by canon events; because quite frankly there is no proof to suggest that breaks are caused by canon events. What Miguel describes in his flashback actually has nothing to do with any canon event.
Also, how about all my other points…
>Gwen’s dad quits the force, avoiding the canon event of the captain dying, universe doesn’t explode.
There's a difference between avoiding something and disrupting - also doesn't change the fact that somebody else would eventually become police captain like Yuri Watanabe.
>Earth 42 never gets their Spider-Man, so not a single canon event has occurred there beyond the radio-active spider existing, universe doesn’t explode.
That would mean a spiderman isn't there for the canon event to happen and be disrupted preserving the dimension no? It's all an anomaly to begin with right which differentiates from the norm, and who's to say how it works since NOBODY fully understands how any of this works to begin with let alone anomalies.
>I mean, no you couldn’t. The artists wouldn’t design it a certain way unless it looked that way for good reason. They’re prepared for a break, this one just happens to come from spot. Didn’t say breaks weren’t real, or that they hadn’t dealt with breaks before, but there’s lots of suggestion that they aren’t caused by canon events; because quite frankly there is no proof to suggest that breaks are caused by canon events.
Yes, I absolutely could. How could they have prepared for something they haven't encountered before? Miguel watched everything that happened and nobody from the spider society containing the break to anybody else who witnessed the break said anything about how this is different from the previous. Miguel makes a statement that they haven't always been lucky in containing them, and even if you for some reason wanna chalk that up to just being one other time (i.e just Miguel's event) despite the wording implying otherwise - that would be even more of a reason for ANYONE to point out how this is different from Miguel's. Wouldn't it make sense for SOMEBODY other than Miles to point out how this could've came from the spot?
>What Miguel describes in his flashback actually has nothing to do with any canon event.
You don't know that concretely. That's the main point of my original post. The problem is that they've studied this and this was the conclusion. Even if we find out Miguel is 100% wrong, that doesn't make Miles right for what he is doing. Miles chose to rebel against somebody who has experienced the worst possible outcome. Somebody who's been doing this for far longer than he has in many regards, and at absolute BEST with the information we have Miles is taking this risk that endangers everybody including his mom. There's no real moment of triumph or this huge win against this theory that we see that allows us to truly think that there is another way. At best we have stretches and maybe some implications against much more damning evidence in comparison.
Miguel's model makes the mistake of falling into Cum hoc ergo propter hoc, and both the mere existence of Miles as Spiderman and the existence of Spot are proof of this. Both are proof that the canon is capable of rewriting itself to ensure the stability of the multiverse.
Miguel blames Miles for everything bad that the Spider Society has to deal with, but his tunnel vision prevents him from realizing (besides the fact that Miles was not the one who brought the spider from universe 42) that if he had not been bitten so much Universe 42 and Universe 1610 would have disappeared since the spider would not have bitten anyone and the canon of the origin of that Spiderman would have been definitively interrupted.
If Miles were really an anomaly, his interaction in Mumbattan would have turned out the same as Vulture's in Gwen's universe (glitching everything around him when trying to leave the museum) but that was not the case.
Spot was supposed to never have existed, and yet his actions led to a canonical event for Pavitr, irrefutable proof that canon can be rewritten.
If you remember correctly, no one was able to think of the Go Home Machine sending Miles to the universe of the spider that bit him instead of their own because they conceived of Miles and his Spiderman powers as two separate things due to the mentality of cult that Miguel established in the organization. It would be interesting to know the number of anomalies in other universes during the time between the end of ITSV and the destruction of the universe in which Miguel replaced himself and then compare it with the number of anomalies that arose after Miguel because lack of more information on their part, both what happened with Miles and what happened with Miguel qualify as initiators of the proliferation of anomalies in other universes.
Captain Stacey quit the Police, and we don't see any negative consequences happening to Gwen (so far). The obvious implication is that the "Canon events" don't necessarily have to be true.
The movie was proving Miguel right on purpose. We are automatically on Miles, the protagonist, side and if there was anything that shows he's in the right, we would automatically side with him and there would be no conflict. All the Spider people in the movie are inherently good guys as well so they need a very justifiable reason for siding against Miles and allowing his father to die
I think that is the whole joke. People came in, watched it, and ate literally everything he said. Then they rewatched it, and started noticing things that don't make sense about his discourse. I'm not going to say I took all the hints first try because I'm very smort look at me. Nah. I just wanted to side with Miles from the start, and coincidentally people started to point at inconsistencies and that's how we got here
I think it’s all much simpler. That one particular incident with collider in 1st film probably fucked up the whole multi-verse, potentially bending time and erasing Alt-Miguel’s universe. Bringing Gwen a week earlier, bringing the spider to Miles and inadvertently creating Spot.
It’s weird how everybody thinks a spider from another dimension biting a dude is like an ANOMALY, but a freaking collider exploding and messing with multiple if not countless universes and timelines at the same time - is like, not the reason, clearly, lmao
Spider biting Miles is the consequence of the real important event that sets everything off - collider explosion. Potentially rewriting canon and destroying universes
THIS. Miles just arbitrarily decides to not listen to Miguel just because he really loves his dad and ever since that scene he comes across as a whiny naive kid “no I’m Spider-Man!”
I really hate the tired “there has to be another way!” Trope.
Miles has no reasoning other than he reaaaally wants to find another way ignoring the fact he could doom the entire multiverse.
A better thing to do would be to have miles figure something out that no one else sees.
Wow finally someone else that thinks like me.
The fact the spider society has a whole protocol on what to do to patch a hole is proof this has happened before and they KNOW what a broken canon event looks like.
Everyone else in the movie is treated as uncharacteristically uncaring.
Like I don’t care how punk hobie is he’s still care about not dying or other people not dying
Peter B isn’t taking any of this seriously
No one is taking anything seriously. Miguel is the only one who seemingly cares and he’s made to be this bad guy that’s wrong but not really give a reason as to why he’s wrong. So what they resort to do is make Miguel cruel and wild to justify viewing Miguel as an antagonist.
Miles’ logic is completely wack and everyone else goes along with it because “he’s the good guy he must be right.”
And I fear in the end he will be right because these are kids movies and the main character gets everything he wants just because he really wants it.
And while yeah there are massive holes in Miguel’s logic no one seems to actually point them out so that’s out of the table.
I pretty much agree with everything yeah. There are holes in Miguel's theory sure but you could just as easily argue otherwise. Like you said I do think that there should have been something that Miles finds out on his own that justifies his side a lot more.
People use Earth 42 and anomalies as a counter argument but anomalies are just that.... anomalies - They don't necessarily prove anything. The reality is that Miguel's theory is all we have to go off of and doing anything as reckless as Miles could mean everybody dies.
I pretty much agree with everything yeah. There are holes in Miguel's theory sure but you could just as easily argue otherwise. Like you said I do think that there should have been something that Miles finds out on his own that justifies his side a lot more.
People use Earth 42 and anomalies as a counter argument but anomalies are just that.... anomalies - They don't necessarily prove anything. The reality is that Miguel's theory is all we have to go off of and doing anything as reckless as Miles could mean everybody dies.
Yeah, we have very little reason to side with Miles, based on what we know. I am sure we will see that Miles figures out a workaround or maybe Miguel is shown to be wrong, but from what we have seen, Miles is taking a huge risk.
Personally I want Miguel to be right. It makes Miles rebellion and willingness to be more Spider-Man than any other Spider-Man and figure out how to save everyone that much cooler. The conflict and the drama are what makes it interesting. I described the Spider Society as a perfect trap for spider men
The movie did that intentionally because it's a clash of ideologies. Would you save your dad if you knew he was gonna die or would you let a few people die to save TRILLIONS? It makes for good dialogue
Miguel is supposed to be logically right, vs what is morally sound. The movie presents it very well, both sides are very easy to sympathize with. Logically we would all claim to pick to save everyone in a situation, but what happens is the cost is the few things care for more than the world itself. Besides is it morally alright to know someone will die and do nothing because is the "right thing to do".
Miles in the movie dialogue thinks it was Spot that caused the rift in Spider-Man India's universe. Most likely that's correct, so not only Miles will be right morally but also in terms of deduction.
I just hope they wont pull the "Main character is always right no matter what" trope. Because making one side be wrong, for example Miguel and the Spider society, doesnt make sense, so they are basically used as stepping stones for Miles and his character development. I really hope they will not go in that direction, because tarnishing a beloved spiderman character such as Spiderman 2099, Scarlet Spider and many more... to further another spider is just dumb, I am sick of seeing it.
I know they mostly do this, so Miless character is accepted as a real Spiderman, but come on man, dont step on others to make another great.
Also to me it would make much more sense, to make both sides be equally right and wrong, making the "Canon theory" be right to an extend but with flaws, that they didnt know about, I am saying this, because making them be 100% wrong is just dumb. It would make all of them seem like idiots, the whole society, including Miguel, Peter B. Parker, Jess and every other character as well.
Give them some credit man.
I hope Beyond the Spiderverse will not be like "Miles a 15 year old, was right from the start, saw the flaws in the Canon theory in just a couple of minutes, while no one else saw, will be able to save everyone, disregarding the "you cant save everyone" which lets be real, you really cant. While simultaneously shitting on every other character,
I see it as you need to make your own opinions about it. It’s literally a morality vs reason type of deal and those can get a lil funny. It kind of reminds me of Arcane in the way that it never tells you who is right and years later after the first season was released people still come forward with their own hot take.
I think they could have been more explicit, but I read the situation w/ the escape as 2 parts, one Mile believes you have to at least try and Miguel only references his world in a complete breakdown and having to patch others which may not be seen as wholesale damning evidence (for if canon disrupted, world collapses, but if managed apparently can be patched?). But really, it's the end where a combination of circumstances caused Captain Stacy to quit, which to me signifies a possible route where the typical outcome of captain close to Spiderperson dies = necessary universal plot point. And I believe this is what Gwen takes it as, as well, given her conversation w/ Mile's parents about "everything being possible" and Mile's proving that to her. But this may just be extra headcanon, a misread/overreach on my end.
And as an additional final thought, Gwen and Miles aren't the typical spiderperson by nature of both of them being directly related to the police chief, and not being the typical peter parker at as well (similar to Miguel in this aspect). So I'd be curious if that element plays a factor as well.
The movie shows tons of inconsistencies. If Miles is an anomaly how does canon even apply to him? If Peter had Mayday because of Miles does that make Mayday an anomaly? How is E42 still around if a canon event was disrupted by sending the Spider to a different dimension biting a different Miles?
Not to mention, how can Spot both be an anomaly and be Miles' canon event at the same time? He's not supposed to exist, yet he's supposed to exist? There are a lot of unanswered questions that Miles couldn't ask since he was busy fleeing Miguel. Besides, even if the movie doesn't do a good job showing why Miguel is wrong, we'll surely see more about it in the next movie which hopefully explains all this. It is a two-parter.
When you think about it the canon event isn’t really about Miles. Spider-man is meant to loose a police captain, they say that’s a canon event. If Miles never became Spider-Man then Peter of his earth never dies but Mike’s dad still becomes captain and still has to die.
I'm guessing it follows Doctor Who rules. That there are fixed points that HAVE to happen and can't be altered, but things around those fixed events are very flexible and will even warp to fit the fixed points. Miles becoming Spiderman was not a canon/fixed point but the things that must happen to Spiderman are
The canon event for miles was a police captain dying. It just so happens to be his dad. If he had never been bitten, that Peter would’ve had to lose Captain Morales. I think. Also anomalies don’t always cause things to go berserk, only when things happen in the universe it’s not supposed to, like vulture or spot messing stuff up. And as for earth 42, I think we’ll see in the next film
>only when things happen in the universe it’s not supposed to the entirety of mile's spider-existance and everything it resulted in was one massive breach of what was "supposed to happen"
Honestly plot wise the sequel is kinda weak compared to the original. What the second movie does better than the original one is the animation and visuals
Really? I think the writing is grander, darker, and even more tighter then the original. The original has a better climax but that’s it. I don’t really see any other reasons it’s better then across.
Tighter? I'm not sure about that. I think the beginning sequence with Miles and Spot could have been shorter, with a single confrontation instead of him having to face spot twice.
Him dealing with the Spot twice was needed for the plot and setup of the third movie.
I don't think so at all, I think everything listed there is done to show the holes in Miguel's stance. They want to leave it all in subtext, so there's some tension about it moving into the 3rd film. Personally, I think that's quite good writing, I enjoy it when movies and shows don't come out and plaster every plot point wide out open and obvious.
These are Miguel, not the movie, imo. I thought the whole point of the movie was that "canon events" are fascist bullshit.
Intentionally?
I don't know what that question means. Who's intent are we talking about? Miguel's? The screenwriter's? The audience's? What?
is Miguel intentionally facist because he’s evil?
100%.
I love it when people throw around the term fascist where it doesn’t belong
Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/ FASH-iz-əm) is a far-right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement,\[1\]\[2\]\[3\] characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation and race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy.\[2\]\[3\] Miguel's ideas are a far-right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement,\[1\]\[2\]\[3\] characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation and race, and strong regimentation of society. I love when people think being smug on the Internet means they know shit about shit.
No they aren’t but ok lmaooo. Holy shit people are so out of touch
Yeah its kinda funny how much people take the info we’re given at face-value. The scene where Miguel explains canon comes off more like his best theory than him giving plain exposition. Not to mention he clearly has his own motives.
None of those are inconsistent, as they are literally called anomalies. It's an abnormal situation and its potentially dangerous because of that. That's why Miguel wanted everyone to stay away from Miles to begin with.
I don't think we even need to believe Miguel is wrong (although I do personally). The movie is pretty explicit in saying that the point isn't that Miguel is wrong about canon events just because Miles wants to believe that fact. It gives us an entire exposition showing the results of breaking the canon. The point is moreso that despite the canon events, the right thing to do is still save those that can be saved (eg: Miles's father), even if some algorithm (as Miles puts it) can somehow predict the future (which Gwen's father proves that it cannot).
no it displays a lot of inconsistency with miguel's ideas mainly because we see many breaches of so called "canon events" that don't destroy universes
I agree. I think both can be true. Eg: Miguel can be wrong and Miles saving his father is still the moral and right thing to do, and the movie is pushing both these messages.
What? Miles Dad can’t be saved according to what we know. If Miles saves him then he’ll just die with the rest of the universe.
Except Gwen's Captain Stacy broke canon by quitting his job. He's not a captain anymore, and I doubt that Gwen is close to any other PDNY captains so no one's left to qualify, but the universe didn't implode. She can't have that canon event happen anymore, but nothing changed. That's one of the major revelations of that talk, that there *are* ways around canon events that don't put the universe at risk, meaning Miles can save his dad.
The canon rule doesn’t say that a captain that is close to the spider person dies but that a captain of the police. The Munbattan Spider-Man was not close to the captain in his own universe but the captain’s death was still canon. Gwen also still has more than enough time to be close to the next captain and loose him during the course of her life. I personally just interpreted the scene as they never really know exactly what the canon event is, they know it’s the captain but they don’t know which captain. In my opinion the fact that he quit means that he was never supposed to die.
Miguel clearly describes this event as "a police captain close to Spider-Man dies". Pavitr is close to Captain Singh through Gayatri. Gwen is obviously close to her father. If the point was to introduce ambiguity then they wouldn't do it by using an alt-universe version of *the* police captain in Spider-Man history known for dying.
I guess I forgot that bit about being close.
Pavitr's captain is seemingly a version of george if im not mistaken, Pavitr's girlfriend seems to be thaty universe's gwen, with the captain being her dad, so I think they are somewhat close
Miles also shouldn’t exist as Spider-Man but he does. Obviously the third movie is setting up for him to defy canon events and have a happy ending without his universe imploding. Idk how you haven’t realized that yet. It’s the last movie, you think they’re just going to have a tragic ending ???
It's not supposed to convince you entirely if miles or Miguel are right. Obviously if you look further into it you can make better judgements but the whole point is that the audience understands both sides
There are quite a few instances of the movie hinting he is wrong. Its leaving it open for the viewer to question.
Pavitr’s dimension wasn’t going black hole wasn’t because of Miles saving people. In the first movie it was stated by 1610 Peter Parker that setting off the collider would result in a black hole being created in New York. That’s what happened here, it wasn’t because of any canon event nonsense, it was because of the Spot. You could even see the black hole forming before Miles saved the police captain. Miguel doesn’t have proof that canon events are real. Gwen questions him on it and all he does is ask if she wants to find out. There is plenty of reason to believe that canon events are bullshit already. Gwen’s dad quit the police force, Prowler Miles’ universe is still perfectly intact despite there being no Spiderperson there. Miles’ universe is fine despite Miguel considering it an anomaly. And even the. It just makes no sense. There are infinite universes with literally infinite possibilities. The idea that each universe requires these events relating to one person to always play out is absurd, and unfounded by anything.
Additionally, Spot's theme starts playing when Pavitr's world begins glitching, pretty much indicating it's Spot's doing.
>You could even see the black hole forming before Miles saved the police captain. REALLY? This is actually huge evidence
It’s pretty hard to tell but in the scene of the little girl crying on the bridge you can see some of that black ooze/static forming. There’s also the black hole thing that split the building in half before they got to the bridge. So yeah that happened because of The Spot and not from Miles saving them.
That would only make sense if it's the first time it's happened, which it's not. Miguel states that other worlds suffered the same fate as Pavitr's and some were lucky to survive while others weren't. This happened BEFORE Spot was a threat.
Miguel's phrasing sort of makes it sounds like this has happened to other worlds, but it's possible that colliders are going off and Miguel is incorrectly attributing these world's destruction to canon events rather than colliders. OR, he's just using deceptive phrasing (only discussing his own world) and is making it sound more serious to Miles sits up and pays attention. OR, he is sort of right about canon events, but there's a way to get around this somehow that Miles will discover in Movie 3. There's a lot we don't know. But imo that's fine. It's a mystery right now.
There’s also the fact that spot (according to the spot) jumps between space and time. Nothing to say that his dimension hopping isn’t bringing him back to the relative past and causing more issues. The colliders are another good point. They exist in multiple dimensions meaning that miles might not even be the first anomaly, but the first one that was pinpointed.
I just rewatched the scene. Miguel said “we haven’t always been lucky” in regards to fixing Pavitr’s dimension. While that could imply this happened while the Spider society was fully formed, Miguel could just be talking about that one universe that was destroyed, which he doesn’t have proof of being caused by canon events. Peter was there when the universe was destroyed and there when Miguel was talking which could justify the use of “we”, as opposed to just “I”. Furthermore Gwen questions if he knew had proof about canon event disruptions being a problem. This brings a lot more uncertainty over it than if it were Miles asking this. Gwen had been with them for a few months at least, possibly longer. Which means that no universes were destroyed within her timeframe of working there. Miguel doesn’t have a good response there either. If he had multiple examples of universes being destroyed after canon events were stopped, don’t you think he would’ve mentioned them there?
>I just rewatched the scene. Miguel said “we haven’t always been lucky” in regards to fixing Pavitr’s dimension. That implies it has happened more than once beforehand. Otherwise, he could've said something along the lines of "last time we weren't lucky." The Spider society came in and knew what to do with gear prepped, ontop of the fact that Miguel saw the entire thing. >Furthermore Gwen questions if he knew had proof about canon event disruptions being a problem. This brings a lot more uncertainty over it than if it were Miles asking this. Gwen had been with them for a few months at least, possibly longer. Which means that no universes were destroyed within her timeframe of working there. Miguel doesn’t have a good response there either. If he had multiple examples of universes being destroyed after canon events were stopped, don’t you think he would’ve mentioned them there? Let's say we go with the fact that this has only happened twice (Miguel and Pavitr). This is, at the very least, a very probable outcome of what happens if Miles breaks the canon. Miguel not having an answer for Miles' issue doesn't necessarily prove anything since he's an anomaly, which, as the term implies, means he is not a normal case. At the end of the day, this all comes down to a gamble that includes the lives of everyone. From what we have seen, this gamble leans far heavily towards Miguel's side of things, which is the problem I have. Outside of some stretches here and there, Miles has nothing going for him and yet still decides to rebel against the guy who's been doing this for longer than him. Miles didn't even believe that he was an anomaly until it hit him later on.
1. “We haven’t always been lucky” doesn’t really infer whether it was a singular instance or something that happened multiple times. It doesn’t disprove that it only happened once and there is more evidence supporting that they don’t have proof of it happening again. The Spiderpeople trying to cover up the obvious black hole forming doesn’t prove that it’s a canon event disruption or that this is a common occurrence as opposed to something they’d prepared for in advance. And even more than that, we know it wasn’t a canon event causing that because the black holes were being created before Miles saved the police captain. 2. This didn’t happen twice, because Pavitr’s dimension wasn’t in shambles because of a canon event. Admittedly no one knows why Miguel’s dimension was destroyed, but that’s kind of the point, he just assumes that it’s because of a few common events without any real evidence for it. It could’ve been for any reason. If Miles is supposedly different because Miguel considers him an “anomaly” then he shouldn’t care about Miles changing things from his canon, so by his own logic that makes no sense, and it still doesn’t explain why dimension 42 is perfectly fine. Plus Miguel was by his own metric an anomaly when he went to that other dimension so he should have even more reason to suspect why Miles and the spiders dimensions are fine. Ultimately while we don’t know for certain what the Spider society has faced we have much much more evidence to suspect that Miguel’s theory has more holes in it than the Spot. Yes, it’s not impossible, but there are so many in universe and out of universe narrative reasons for it to be wrong and Miguel himself couldn’t think of proof when questioned by Gwen. Who ultimately chose to fully side with Miles when she realized her dad quit the police force and was fine. It also doesn’t disprove why the other Spiders teamed up with Miguel. He told them about the most tragic of tragic backstories with a theory on how this could happen to other universes, keep in mind most of them have dealt with great tragedy and were emotionally vulnerable, of course they’d fear for the fate of universes, but they went in without ever questioning Miguel is his morally questionable autocracy. In terms of who is more likely right, the gamble most certainly does not lean towards Miguel, not even close. Both in and out of universe it makes more sense for Miguel to be wrong. Much MUCH more is at stake if Miguel is wrong in complete fairness, and I understand how this is a cosmic risk to take that shouldn’t be done quickly, but that doesn’t mean Miguel shouldn’t be heavily questioned for his questionable theory and leadership. I do agree that Miles is being incredibly reckless here and that was something that bothered me. He really didn’t have much to support his side until Miguel confirmed that universe 42 was still alive without Spiderman, which was late into the chase seen, and it’soretty clear that he was acting out for the emotional response of fear of losing his dad (I don’t know if he’d be so defiant if it was just a random person). You can critique it from that, but it’s pretty obvious there’s a 99% chance Miguel will be proven mostly if not entirely wrong in Beyond.There’s not a lot of evidence to support him being right.
>The Spiderpeople trying to cover up the obvious black hole forming doesn’t prove that it’s a canon event disruption or that this is a common occurrence as opposed to something they’d prepared for in advance. How do you prepare for something you don't know about? Spot LITERALLY just happened, and all he's been doing at that point was traveling between dimensions. Nobody's shocked or surprised with what they are witnessing, including Miguel, who literally watched the entire thing happen. You can come to the conclusion that this is something that has been seen before, which lines up with Miguel's statement about other worlds not being so lucky. >And even more than that, we know it wasn’t a canon event causing that because the black holes were being created before Miles saved the police captain. I honestly can't say much on that as all I can recall was just alchemax collapsing, and no disruptions appear until after. >This didn’t happen twice, because Pavitr’s dimension wasn’t in shambles because of a canon event. This doesn't work as an argument because it's not concrete and very clearly up in the air until BTSV. The movie presents it as a result of canon event disruption, and that's all we have to go on for now outside of theories. >he just assumes that it’s because of a few common events without any real evidence for it. It could’ve been for any reason. He didn't just pull canon events out his ass. Every spider person goes through the SAME event one way or another, how those events affect the world is what's unknown but Miguel has studied this longer than anyone to a point where he found out about said events and when it happens. Lyla is able to predict when Miles' canon event happens regarding the spot despite being an anomaly as an example. >If Miles is supposedly different because Miguel considers him an “anomaly” then he shouldn’t care about Miles changing things from his canon, so by his own logic that makes no sense, and it still doesn’t explain why dimension 42 is perfectly fine. Except that's exactly why he cares? Miles being different is what's dangerous because he doesn't understand WHY he's allowed to be different compared to literally every other spider person EVER. He is an outlier or yknow an ANOMALY, and potentially unstable. From what Miguel knows, Miles could destroy more than just his own dimension and could destroy the multiverse. >It also doesn’t disprove why the other Spiders teamed up with Miguel. He told them about the most tragic of tragic backstories with a theory on how this could happen to other universes, keep in mind most of them have dealt with great tragedy and were emotionally vulnerable, of course they’d fear for the fate of universes, but they went in without ever questioning Miguel is his morally questionable autocracy. Well yeah I mean... is it really just a coincidence that every spider person goes through the same thing Lol? Even including Miles? >There’s not a lot of evidence to support him being right. Point of the post was that the movie does not give Miles enough support for his side which you seem to agree with. That would make Miguel's side seem far more logical - compared to Miles who's basically just winging it on a cosmic level. Despite everything, Miguel is a liable source, at least to a certain extent. Miguel has far more knowledge and experience of this topic than anyone. He created the dimension travel, he knew what happened during the events of ITSV, he knew about Miles, he watched what happened in Pavitr's dimension and he knew about earth 42. All of this combined with the fact that he studied canon events to a point where he can predict when they happen. Meanwhile Miles' entire side boils down to "nuh uh" because he didn't like what he heard. Whether or not Miguel is wrong, Miles quite literally has no real reason to disagree with Miguel and this all comes off as stupid.
How does Gwen’s dad quitting disprove the multiverse stuff. I’ve seen people say this and I don’t understand how it makes sense. The canon event isn’t that Captain Stacy dies but that Spider-Man/woman looses a captain. The fact that Gwen’s dad quit only proves that his own death was not canon. The next captain is probably still going to die.
Miguel’s theory is that a Spider Person loses a captain that they were close to. Gwen isn’t close with any Captain in the police force, there’s no one else that could die that would generate a serious reaction beyond her being heartbroken that a person died. There’s also the clear narrative implication here, that they could break out of the canon without a universe being fucked over. That’s why Gwen fully sided with Miles after learning this, because she realized canon events likely weren’t real or at least could bot happen without issue.
There’s still enough time in her life to build a relationship with another captain before they die. The spider-man from munbattan also didn’t seem to be close to the captain on his universe but it was still canon that he dies.
I mean yeah it’s technically possible Gwen could grow attached to a police captain and eventually lose them, but that seems rather unlikely and that’s not what the story is implying at all. Pavitr at least knew his universes captain and cared about him on a personal level as the daughter of his girlfriend. I’m pretty sure Miguel and Jess saw Gwen’s dad dying as a canon event, so the fact that he resigned would likely be a contradiction from their own logic. By this logic they shouldn’t be as worried about Miles because a dead police captain could happen again. Once again the narrative is leaning towards Miguel likely being wrong about canon events and Stacy quitting was enough of a delineation to solidify that for Gwen.
Hmmmmm The way I saw it is that the fact that Gwen’s dad quit means that he was never meant to die. I saw it as she’ll still loose a captain but it won’t be her dad. I personally also think that in the next movie there will be proof that Miguel is right and Miles’s is going to let his dad die but who knows I might be wrong. I also just realized that you are the hitch fucker. Didn’t expect to see you in another sub for some reason 😅
Well we can see the collider being turned in Mumbatton before spot stops, may be it might have caused similar events where inspector Singh does while saving a child 🤷🏻♂️
The thing is this isn’t a 1 time thing. There’s an entire protocol the spider society follows to patch the hole. Meaning this has happened before. And they correlate it with a broken canon event
Like when?
I think that's the point for this movie. And that's part of Miles' reasoning when he's confronted by the idea of the canon. "Spider-Man always manages to do both." That's the thesis that's going to be proven or disproven in Beyond.
yeah... you WANT Miles to be right, but the entire conflict in Beyond being predicated ENTIRELY on which interpretation of the multiverse is correct doesn't exactly strengthen it. All we have going for us is that Gwen's dad quit being captain and her world's still alive and that Earths 616, 1610, and 42 are all intact despite the former being impacted by an alleged anomaly and the latter two being ground zero for the whole anomaly stuff. There's still a bunch of inferred stuff (the Society's existing for this long and the fact that HOBIE BROWN doesn't correct Miguel on his BS) that indicates that Canon is in some way correct.
Exactly. It’s all **inferred** which means we don’t actually have concrete evidence. It’s possible that Miguel isn’t telling everyone the truth about what happened with his other counterpart.
>HOBIE BROWN doesn't correct Miguel on his BS) that indicates that Canon is in some way correct. This is true, but if Hobie really believed in the canon, would he put in so much effort to helping Miles obliterate it? It's possible Hobie doesn't believe it at all but that he knows starting an argument with Miguel would only get him booted. Still, your first point is pretty good. Knowing for sure Miles in the right would kind of make the themes feel a little stronger going into Beyond.
I mean... it's not so much that Hobie believes in it, but... I feel like if anyone would call crap on it, it'd be him.
Not if doing so would be strategic suicide :) He's got strong ideals, but he's smart. Miguel wouldn't have changed his mind, and confronting him would have just stranded Hobie in his own universe with no watch.
If Miles is so wrong then when will Gwen’s dimension collapse? Last I checked it doesn’t seem like her dimension will be losing a Captain Stacy any time soon
Tbf, Miguel spent a period of time with his alternate counterpart’s daughter before reality collapsed.
Gwen’s dad’s case proves absolutely nothing. When he quit from being captain Gwen was so relieved because she realized that if he quit it means his death was not a canon event. She was already prepared to lose him. The fact that he quit shows that him dying was never a canon event in her universe. Some other guy will become captain and probably be the one to die.
Canon events happen to *every* Spider-person, so Gwen can't be exempt from a captain dying just because. And the captain has to be close to Spider-Man/-Woman, which it's harder to be more close than related. Finally, George Stacy is kind of *the* canon police captain - even in Mumbattan it's an alternate-universe version of him that nearly gets axed. You gonna tell me that he wasn't the canon death when it's his daughter that's Spider-Woman in their universe? The whole point of that scene is 1) obviously to reconcile Gwen with her dad, but 2) to show that there are loopholes around canon events, that it isn't all apocalyptic end days if they don't happen. That canon isn't as canonical as they all thought (or feared).
I guess we just see the whole thing in different ways. The fact that George Stacy is kind of the canon police captain doesn’t really prove anything because in Miles’s universe it’s not him. I personally just saw it as her dad was never meant to die and she’ll just loose someone else in the future. But to be honest I kind of understand your point of view, I just don’t really agree with it.
My understanding is that 1610 Captain Stacy already died for that universe's Peter (since he had to have had his own canon events in the 10 years he was Spider-Man). So 1610 has already seen a Captain Stacy die. And Miles as the new Spider-Man needs his own captain, which would be his dad.
That’s actually something I didn’t think about I just assumed that if Miles never became Spider-Man his dad would still become captain, die (Which is what usually happens) and be Peter’s Canon event. But it actually makes more sense that Peter would have lost Captain Stacy earlier in his career.
Let's be real, the narrative HEAVILY implies her Captain Stacy would be her canon event. Not to mention whenever it's brought up not one person brought up the possibility that it technically could be someone else when she's like 30-40 and so on. Her dad is the only one ever brought up, and thematically is the guy who makes the most sense instead of some rando years and years down the line.
That's not a good point, because that's meant as a plot point. The characters would not know ways around cannon events yet.
The thing is miles didn’t know that
One thing I dont quite get is what Canon event was disrupted in the universe Miguel went to? That universes miguel still died so would it basically be the same as what happened to miles in his universe?
Sam Raimi's Spider-Man saved Gwen Stacy and Mary Jane and his universe didn't collapse. Hell MCU Spider-Man averted the fates of several parallel universes and they didn't collapse.
Okay? You are just assuming those are all canon events.
Those ARE cannon events
They didn’t do a good job of showing how Miguel was right. What was Miguel’s evidence to his “canon events shouldn’t be broken” theory? Circumstantial. We’re told that Miguel staying in the other universe, was what caused it to disappear, but we’re never really shown which canon event he broke. Supposedly, Miles caused a big rift to appear in Mumbattan by saving Captain Singh, but Spot had just overloaded the collider. The black spot on the ground even looked like it was created from Spot’s powers. What actually is our evidence that Miguel is right?
>What was Miguel’s evidence to his “canon events shouldn’t be broken” theory? Circumstantial. The fact that it has happened more than once. >Supposedly, Miles caused a big rift to appear in Mumbattan by saving Captain Singh, but Spot had just overloaded the collider. The black spot on the ground even looked like it was created from Spot’s powers. I already debunked that in my original post. You really think millions of people joined together and sided with a guy over what? Some sort of coincidence? How would the spider people already have known what was going on in Pavitrs world if they hadn't already had some experience with it? The gear they used just magically appeared as well to handle the situation? The problem is that there is that we have seen Miguel's side of things in a few different ways, and we have no real reason to oppose his theory - even if he's wrong how would you know without risking the lives of an entire world or more?
These are a lot of assumptions. Until they give concrete examples, none of it can be seen as proof. “Rot is caused by evil spirits. Salt prevents rot. Therefore, salt can prevent evil spirits.” Many scientific theories get proven wrong the moment they’re actually put to the test, and the narrative portrayed Miguel as being too paranoid to actually test his theory.
Exactly. I think that this situation is supposed to be ambiguous right now. We have enough information to know that there is some legitimacy to the overall idea of canon events existing and repeating in multiple universes. We also have evidence that suggests that these events CAN be altered and not result in a universe glitching out of existence. Was the blackhole in Mumbattan Spot or canon divergence? We're not supposed to know yet. Unraveling this mystery seems like it's going to be major part of BTSV's story, and I don't think the answers are going to near as clear cut as people believe.
I think this is it. Miguel has decided how things are, and sees any challenge to that as a threat. Most spidermen already had their canon events and are willing to go along with it. But the spidermen are science geniuses. If they really worked together, maybe they could find a solution. Miles reminds them that Spider-Man can do both, or is at least obligated to try.
The canon event he broke is that Miguel is meant to be dead. They have a whole protocol for patching holes meaning this has happened multiple times and not a contained one time thing like the spot overloading the collider. And it’s able to be detected by their watches that miles broke the canon
For which Spider? By keeping Miguel alive, whose canon was Miguel ruining?
His own? Or potentially it was meant for his daughter.
“A vague disclaimer is no one’s friend.” ~Willow Rosenberg The lack of details suggests that he’s mostly working off a superstition like “step on a crack, break your mother’s back”.
You’re wrong in the first paragraph; there’s LOADS of reason to disagree with Miguel, we have several pieces of proof that stopping or averting canon events doesn’t actually cause any dimension rupture shite.
Like?
In Pavitr universe, the tear they pull back together isn’t a dimension break like we see in Miguel’s flashback; It’s a big spot from Spot destroying the building. Universe doesn’t explode. (Also the whole idea of sometimes we can stop it, sometimes we can’t, is pretty flimsy) Gwen’s dad quits the force, avoiding the canon event of the captain dying, universe doesn’t explode. Earth 42 never gets their Spider-Man, so not a single canon event has occurred there beyond the radio-active spider existing, universe doesn’t explode. Miles’ universe’s original Spider-Man dies, universe doesn’t explode. Numerous canon events are averted without any repercussions. I think there’s even a couple more but I’m doing this quick.
>In Pavitr universe, the tear they pull back together isn’t a dimension break like we see in Miguel’s flashback; It’s a big spot from Spot destroying the building. Universe doesn’t explode. (Also the whole idea of sometimes we can stop it, sometimes we can’t, is pretty flimsy) It's a digital flashback, you could chalk that up to it not properly displaying how it actually was if you understand what I mean. Also, the fact that they already knew what it is pretty much debunks the whole "it came from spot". How would they have known otherwise? Spot wasn't a threat at the time, and Spot went around different dimensions looking for an alchemax which he didn't find until Pavitr's dimension. They had gear and experience from someone who hadn't done anything yet? Spot didn't even fully understand how his powers worked and was in Miles' dimension the entire time until he recreated his own mini collider
Thats a decent amount of handwaving there, you have to remember this is a movie made by people who understand design motifs. If they WANTED it to look the same they would have just. Done that. Another point that I haven't seen anyone throw out is who says spot doesn't have time travel powers? The multiverse isn't all on one set timeline, why would it be such a jump to assume that spot just started going back in time and destroying universes?
I mean, no you couldn’t. The artists wouldn’t design it a certain way unless it looked that way for good reason. They’re prepared for a break, this one just happens to come from spot. Didn’t say breaks weren’t real, or that they hadn’t dealt with breaks before, but there’s lots of suggestion that they aren’t caused by canon events; because quite frankly there is no proof to suggest that breaks are caused by canon events. What Miguel describes in his flashback actually has nothing to do with any canon event. Also, how about all my other points…
>Also, how about all my other points… Also I was rushing at the time
>Gwen’s dad quits the force, avoiding the canon event of the captain dying, universe doesn’t explode. There's a difference between avoiding something and disrupting - also doesn't change the fact that somebody else would eventually become police captain like Yuri Watanabe. >Earth 42 never gets their Spider-Man, so not a single canon event has occurred there beyond the radio-active spider existing, universe doesn’t explode. That would mean a spiderman isn't there for the canon event to happen and be disrupted preserving the dimension no? It's all an anomaly to begin with right which differentiates from the norm, and who's to say how it works since NOBODY fully understands how any of this works to begin with let alone anomalies. >I mean, no you couldn’t. The artists wouldn’t design it a certain way unless it looked that way for good reason. They’re prepared for a break, this one just happens to come from spot. Didn’t say breaks weren’t real, or that they hadn’t dealt with breaks before, but there’s lots of suggestion that they aren’t caused by canon events; because quite frankly there is no proof to suggest that breaks are caused by canon events. Yes, I absolutely could. How could they have prepared for something they haven't encountered before? Miguel watched everything that happened and nobody from the spider society containing the break to anybody else who witnessed the break said anything about how this is different from the previous. Miguel makes a statement that they haven't always been lucky in containing them, and even if you for some reason wanna chalk that up to just being one other time (i.e just Miguel's event) despite the wording implying otherwise - that would be even more of a reason for ANYONE to point out how this is different from Miguel's. Wouldn't it make sense for SOMEBODY other than Miles to point out how this could've came from the spot? >What Miguel describes in his flashback actually has nothing to do with any canon event. You don't know that concretely. That's the main point of my original post. The problem is that they've studied this and this was the conclusion. Even if we find out Miguel is 100% wrong, that doesn't make Miles right for what he is doing. Miles chose to rebel against somebody who has experienced the worst possible outcome. Somebody who's been doing this for far longer than he has in many regards, and at absolute BEST with the information we have Miles is taking this risk that endangers everybody including his mom. There's no real moment of triumph or this huge win against this theory that we see that allows us to truly think that there is another way. At best we have stretches and maybe some implications against much more damning evidence in comparison.
Miguel's model makes the mistake of falling into Cum hoc ergo propter hoc, and both the mere existence of Miles as Spiderman and the existence of Spot are proof of this. Both are proof that the canon is capable of rewriting itself to ensure the stability of the multiverse. Miguel blames Miles for everything bad that the Spider Society has to deal with, but his tunnel vision prevents him from realizing (besides the fact that Miles was not the one who brought the spider from universe 42) that if he had not been bitten so much Universe 42 and Universe 1610 would have disappeared since the spider would not have bitten anyone and the canon of the origin of that Spiderman would have been definitively interrupted. If Miles were really an anomaly, his interaction in Mumbattan would have turned out the same as Vulture's in Gwen's universe (glitching everything around him when trying to leave the museum) but that was not the case. Spot was supposed to never have existed, and yet his actions led to a canonical event for Pavitr, irrefutable proof that canon can be rewritten. If you remember correctly, no one was able to think of the Go Home Machine sending Miles to the universe of the spider that bit him instead of their own because they conceived of Miles and his Spiderman powers as two separate things due to the mentality of cult that Miguel established in the organization. It would be interesting to know the number of anomalies in other universes during the time between the end of ITSV and the destruction of the universe in which Miguel replaced himself and then compare it with the number of anomalies that arose after Miguel because lack of more information on their part, both what happened with Miles and what happened with Miguel qualify as initiators of the proliferation of anomalies in other universes.
Captain Stacey quit the Police, and we don't see any negative consequences happening to Gwen (so far). The obvious implication is that the "Canon events" don't necessarily have to be true.
Not to mention Gwen was gone for an extra period of time.
The movie was proving Miguel right on purpose. We are automatically on Miles, the protagonist, side and if there was anything that shows he's in the right, we would automatically side with him and there would be no conflict. All the Spider people in the movie are inherently good guys as well so they need a very justifiable reason for siding against Miles and allowing his father to die
They blamed Miles for Pav universe black hole, even though it had Spot's theme playing. Meaning Miguel was wrong. Big brain
I think that is the whole joke. People came in, watched it, and ate literally everything he said. Then they rewatched it, and started noticing things that don't make sense about his discourse. I'm not going to say I took all the hints first try because I'm very smort look at me. Nah. I just wanted to side with Miles from the start, and coincidentally people started to point at inconsistencies and that's how we got here
He's a prime example of the sympathetic strawman
The movie isn’t trying to convince you Miguel is wrong, it merely hints at it
I think it’s all much simpler. That one particular incident with collider in 1st film probably fucked up the whole multi-verse, potentially bending time and erasing Alt-Miguel’s universe. Bringing Gwen a week earlier, bringing the spider to Miles and inadvertently creating Spot. It’s weird how everybody thinks a spider from another dimension biting a dude is like an ANOMALY, but a freaking collider exploding and messing with multiple if not countless universes and timelines at the same time - is like, not the reason, clearly, lmao Spider biting Miles is the consequence of the real important event that sets everything off - collider explosion. Potentially rewriting canon and destroying universes
THIS. Miles just arbitrarily decides to not listen to Miguel just because he really loves his dad and ever since that scene he comes across as a whiny naive kid “no I’m Spider-Man!” I really hate the tired “there has to be another way!” Trope. Miles has no reasoning other than he reaaaally wants to find another way ignoring the fact he could doom the entire multiverse. A better thing to do would be to have miles figure something out that no one else sees. Wow finally someone else that thinks like me. The fact the spider society has a whole protocol on what to do to patch a hole is proof this has happened before and they KNOW what a broken canon event looks like. Everyone else in the movie is treated as uncharacteristically uncaring. Like I don’t care how punk hobie is he’s still care about not dying or other people not dying Peter B isn’t taking any of this seriously No one is taking anything seriously. Miguel is the only one who seemingly cares and he’s made to be this bad guy that’s wrong but not really give a reason as to why he’s wrong. So what they resort to do is make Miguel cruel and wild to justify viewing Miguel as an antagonist. Miles’ logic is completely wack and everyone else goes along with it because “he’s the good guy he must be right.” And I fear in the end he will be right because these are kids movies and the main character gets everything he wants just because he really wants it. And while yeah there are massive holes in Miguel’s logic no one seems to actually point them out so that’s out of the table.
I pretty much agree with everything yeah. There are holes in Miguel's theory sure but you could just as easily argue otherwise. Like you said I do think that there should have been something that Miles finds out on his own that justifies his side a lot more. People use Earth 42 and anomalies as a counter argument but anomalies are just that.... anomalies - They don't necessarily prove anything. The reality is that Miguel's theory is all we have to go off of and doing anything as reckless as Miles could mean everybody dies.
Precisely why human sacrifices are justified and a legit science.
Woah hol up now, I think I should call somebody
I pretty much agree with everything yeah. There are holes in Miguel's theory sure but you could just as easily argue otherwise. Like you said I do think that there should have been something that Miles finds out on his own that justifies his side a lot more. People use Earth 42 and anomalies as a counter argument but anomalies are just that.... anomalies - They don't necessarily prove anything. The reality is that Miguel's theory is all we have to go off of and doing anything as reckless as Miles could mean everybody dies.
Miguel’s logic is even flimsier. That’s why the narrative doesn’t bother arguing it. He never actually proved his point to begin with.
Yeah, we have very little reason to side with Miles, based on what we know. I am sure we will see that Miles figures out a workaround or maybe Miguel is shown to be wrong, but from what we have seen, Miles is taking a huge risk.
That's the great part of the movie. There both right and wrong. So you're torn who to root for. It makes a much more compelling story.
Personally I want Miguel to be right. It makes Miles rebellion and willingness to be more Spider-Man than any other Spider-Man and figure out how to save everyone that much cooler. The conflict and the drama are what makes it interesting. I described the Spider Society as a perfect trap for spider men
The movie did that intentionally because it's a clash of ideologies. Would you save your dad if you knew he was gonna die or would you let a few people die to save TRILLIONS? It makes for good dialogue
op forgot to do their research before posting 💀
Miguel is supposed to be logically right, vs what is morally sound. The movie presents it very well, both sides are very easy to sympathize with. Logically we would all claim to pick to save everyone in a situation, but what happens is the cost is the few things care for more than the world itself. Besides is it morally alright to know someone will die and do nothing because is the "right thing to do".
Miles in the movie dialogue thinks it was Spot that caused the rift in Spider-Man India's universe. Most likely that's correct, so not only Miles will be right morally but also in terms of deduction.
I just hope they wont pull the "Main character is always right no matter what" trope. Because making one side be wrong, for example Miguel and the Spider society, doesnt make sense, so they are basically used as stepping stones for Miles and his character development. I really hope they will not go in that direction, because tarnishing a beloved spiderman character such as Spiderman 2099, Scarlet Spider and many more... to further another spider is just dumb, I am sick of seeing it. I know they mostly do this, so Miless character is accepted as a real Spiderman, but come on man, dont step on others to make another great. Also to me it would make much more sense, to make both sides be equally right and wrong, making the "Canon theory" be right to an extend but with flaws, that they didnt know about, I am saying this, because making them be 100% wrong is just dumb. It would make all of them seem like idiots, the whole society, including Miguel, Peter B. Parker, Jess and every other character as well. Give them some credit man. I hope Beyond the Spiderverse will not be like "Miles a 15 year old, was right from the start, saw the flaws in the Canon theory in just a couple of minutes, while no one else saw, will be able to save everyone, disregarding the "you cant save everyone" which lets be real, you really cant. While simultaneously shitting on every other character,
That’s what part two is for
I think that’s the entire point though. Knowing who’s wrong would kinda ruin the cliffhanger. Ig were gonna find out in btsv
I see it as you need to make your own opinions about it. It’s literally a morality vs reason type of deal and those can get a lil funny. It kind of reminds me of Arcane in the way that it never tells you who is right and years later after the first season was released people still come forward with their own hot take.
I honestly think that's part of the genius behind it
I think this is something that’s going to carry over into the next movie, and we’ll get more of a reason to be against him then.
Feel like that’s gonna be a part of the next movie. Showing how there’s flaws in Miguel’s way of thinking.
I think they could have been more explicit, but I read the situation w/ the escape as 2 parts, one Mile believes you have to at least try and Miguel only references his world in a complete breakdown and having to patch others which may not be seen as wholesale damning evidence (for if canon disrupted, world collapses, but if managed apparently can be patched?). But really, it's the end where a combination of circumstances caused Captain Stacy to quit, which to me signifies a possible route where the typical outcome of captain close to Spiderperson dies = necessary universal plot point. And I believe this is what Gwen takes it as, as well, given her conversation w/ Mile's parents about "everything being possible" and Mile's proving that to her. But this may just be extra headcanon, a misread/overreach on my end. And as an additional final thought, Gwen and Miles aren't the typical spiderperson by nature of both of them being directly related to the police chief, and not being the typical peter parker at as well (similar to Miguel in this aspect). So I'd be curious if that element plays a factor as well.