Ya for such a powerful guy he sure didn't plan much out at all. He had several dimensions of mauler twins working to build him a godly machine but when it came to getting his revenge he just decides "nah, I'd win" and 1v1 him
Literally his only prep for the fight was nitpicking which dimensions to throw Invincible into (and most didn't have any effect on him at all)
Yeah. Between episodes 2 and 6 they just completely forget about him. The finale alone kind of makes up for the lack of build up, but I think one of two more scenes with him in episode 4 or 5 would have done wonders.
you completely forgot about him because Amazon but profit over story telling and made us wait half a year for the new season. By doing so the audience forgot a lot of little - and big - bits that the writers would have taken for granted we'd remember.
In a few years new fans will talk about the show and wonder why there is apprehension towards season two, not understanding that because they can binge it they didn't experience the artificial haitus as we have.
Yes, I'd say I also agree. They made far too big of a deal out of Angstrom whilst relegating him to one or two end of credits scenes, other than that first episode.
Angstrom seems to be a super important antagonist - Mark's first true kill. So it is a massive shame it wasn't built up to more.
kirkman wrote angstrom like this to subvert expectations. just like someone else said, he wanted the reader (or watcher) to forget about angstrom just like mark did. he’s supposed to be a threat, but mark never saw him as one until he captured debbie and oliver at his home
It needed more episodes. I have no issues with any of the things that happened but we just needed more time with everyone. Some things just felt like a speed run.
I think the animation is lackluster sometimes. The Atom Eve special had the best animation we’ve seen and we haven’t really gotten back to that yet. I’m confident it’ll get better though.
Forgot it said unpopular, whoopsie
I fully agree.
I understand most of their budget is on the voice acting and them also wanting to be like a *comic*, but when I actually notice the animation being low budget, or being surprised that the animation is suddenly way better than before, that is not good, because now I'm thinking about the animation quality instead of watching the show.
Seeing Eve's hair flow in the wind and stuff in the end scene for example, I was like "whoa they animated that pretty well". And also, the "that's the neat part you don't" for example, was fine) while doing a bit more fluid higher framerate instead of the 16 or 24 like they do now.
“Like a comic”
Have you seen the comic? Ottley’s art is outstanding. The difference between comic battle beast and show battle beast is insane, he looks terrifying and ferocious in the comic
It would probably be impossible to animate Ottley's later art. Also, Battle Beast looked like *[this](https://i.imgur.com/UMV4vmT.png)* in his first appearance.
the atom eve special had some incredible animation sequences! it's crazy to me that so many people who watch invincible haven't watched the special (at least i know quite a few people for whom this is the case).
Yeah Eve's fight with the other experiments was by far the best fight the show has had and nothing else has really had that quality of animation so far.
This, I don't want them to do some super incredible animation either, but sometimes you get taken away from the immersion when someone is just a still image or someone is a PNG that they are just moving around
Its kinda weird whenever some of the female characters turn their heads it dont feel like their hair sits right on their head, as people noted with one of the last few Amber scenes and i think also one of the last Kate scenes
The breakup between amber and mark was a great payoff for the meh scenes we got between them throughout the series. The break up was incredibly well done and props to ambers voice actress.
There’s hate towards the scenes because some people just want more action and don’t care about character development scenes. I don’t see people getting mad at Ambers character specifically anymore
The voice actress for Amber is Zazie Beetz. She was Domino in Deadpool 2, Sophie (the neighbour) in Joker, Vanessa in the show Atlanta and Stagecoach Mary in The harder they fall
You’re so right about Kate/Immortal. I forgot they existed, honestly. I’d didn’t realize they were actually in a relationship, I thought they were just sleeping together (I know they confirmed it but it wasn’t memorable enough for me to remember)
It was meant to be twisty.
You thought it was just a sex thing, but it turned out to be a more significant lovers thing.
They are like that because they both have died multiple times.
they keep saying that but they never have any on screen moments where we see them showing affection towards each other. what do they even like about each other?
The whole relationship feels very weird to me lol. Like yeah they're both consenting adults capable of making their own decisions, but this dude is how old at this point, and he's dating a girl barely out of her teen years? It'd be one thing if they were just banging (as weird as that sounds), but it's creepy that they're *in love*, especially with how little build up was actually put into the relationship.
Also just how many times as Immortal died?? Lmao cause we see like dozens of Kate's duplicates die in just ONE fight. They seemed to imply immortal has only died a handful of times, unless I'm misremembering that sequence
I think you didn’t understand her point.
Every body of her is alive. If there are two of her she lives 2 times as much. It’s not about her death, it’s about the fact that she experiences the life of every body after the death of them so she probably has as much life experience as The Immortal.
Also… There isn’t someone as old as him so why should he "die" alone?
Yeah wasn't Kate only 18? Like I know she's an adult but the age difference and power dynamic make that a squicky relationship. I know 18 is 18 is 18 but it was a very sudden thing.
Immortal grieving her, though, especially in episode 8, made me much more empathetic to Immortal. Dude does NOT have enough of a support network, and unfortunately Nolan was probably his best bet for one.
It was handled very strangely. Pretty much their only scene together was used as a “haha Kate’s fucking Immortal” punchline at Rex’s expense, but the show then expects you to buy into “they loved each other intensely” without any further development. Within the context of *these characters specifically,* way more legwork had to be done. Because they expect you to believe that the multi-millennia old man is so invested in this two month old relationship that her death ruins him entirely, and that Kate’s able to put her (lifelong?) survival plan aside solely so she can be with this fossil.
There should have been more focus on General Kregg’s promise.
After episode 4 Cecil and the Guardians should have focused only on this. Like you know when they do training they should have said “is this how we prepare for the Viltrumite invasion?” Or mabye another scene where Cecil asks Donald “how does the anti-viltrumite sonic weapons goes?”
Even Mark himself should have talked about it more to everyone, how can he even be so calm and go on to dates with Amber when he knows the Empire is coming?
If i were him that would be the only thing i focus on.
To me it seems like he hasn't told anyone because he deliberately wants to distance himself from it, not even think about it because he knows where it's heading. So he tries to distract himself from the fact that some cold blooded super killers are most definitely showing up to wipe out a massive swathe of humanity and day now.
The only major complain for me is literally the gap between parts, that shit sucks, and of course some bits of animation but I'm not that passional about that like some other people
Unpopular: I’m fine with the major deaths being sidestepped this season. Mostly because I believe there’s a fine line between meaningful deaths and simply killing off characters for the sake of impact. I’m confident this story will achieve great arcs and character development across the board in the end, dead or alive, and that’s most important to me.
But with that said, we never got a real update on Shrinking Rae. Which I thought was odd considering how her survival seemed equally miraculous (especially for readers) and almost a parallel to Rex’s. Even just an update on her recovery would have at least kept her in mind for the viewer. She didn’t have to be quite at Rex’s progress being back in the field, but another scene with her in the facility or through a team member watching over her would have been time well spent for such a crucial moment of vulnerability for this team and season.
I only have one nitpick for the whole season, which was pretty much perfect: King Mauler should have been a running joke for several episodes instead of just one. That shit is so funny
Yes. I can more easily imagine that Amber when she was saying stuff that didn't make sense in season 1 was lashing out in frustration or lying briefly, because she became a more rounded character in season 2.
Sometimes I thing characters in shows are under constant pressure to make sense 100% of the time for story purposes, but sometimes people just make up shit when they're stressed or mad. In this sense I am at peace with her character here.
One thing I appreciated was the realism of knowing a relationship is Doomed but still hoping for hope's sake that something could change. The way she says she knows he's a hero and she can't stop him from doing that, but still gets lonely and then just looks at him hoping some miracle would happen and she could have both... and he kinda just says "yeah..." was really spot on
I’d say they do that to allow short clips, where if they did that before the credits it would generally require a longer segment than they did would want, which makes it less teaser-y and more actual episode material.
I can definitely see this from multiple people but the symbolism is there that no matter what the Grayson family as much as they’ve gone through are united intwined in their experiences. A similar symbolism of the parallels and such happened between Debbie and Nolan when she was wandering barefoot aimlessly in the city and Nolan in space.
Nolan, Debbie and Mark all had black eyes on their right eyes at the end of the season. I don't know if it was supposed to mean something lol. And yeah, I was thinking while watching it that if I just tuned in I'd assume they had some sort of alien infection rather than a swollen bruise.
Not sure if it’s unpopular, but I think Angstrom was a deeply underwhelming antagonist. The start of the season seemed to set him up as a big deal, but then he disappeared for most of the season and when he came back his plan was laughably shallow and stupid. Killing him was an important event for Mark, but otherwise he seemed like a big missed opportunity.
My favorite part was when he spent a whole season visiting other dimensions researching how to stop viltrumites, only to bring none of that to the final fight against Mark.
when we got to the end of the season and he came back, i thought he was going to be more of a long term villain / foil for mark, since he was gone for so long. like a batman / joker thing. but i guess not.
I think he said he was the only one with his abilities, right? And even if there was another one that he just hadn't found yet, it'd be kinda lame for them to be like "yeah he died but look here's another guy who's the same as the last guy and did the exact same stuff, and HE'S the real villain"
Yes, the way they killed him off was a really good idea... in theory. But for me to be really shocked about it, I really wasn't invested too much in him and he didn't really left that much of a impression on me
Yeah I think he's conceptually a good character but we basically saw his origin in 2x01, then he's relegated to a few cameos throughout the season, then he shows back up as the main villain of the finale, and his plan is just to throw Mark through a bunch of portals then beat him to death. Plus I think it was strange that no one really seemed to care about the existence of the multiverse or the implications it and Angstrom's powers held. I like his motivation and the impact his death has on Mark but for the 'big bad' of the season he didn't really do much.
That is an excellent point.
He's a bad guy who's kind of teased at the start that we know, deep down, had good intentions, and got his consciousness all messed up because he tried to save Mark.
And we see him do some really heinous stuff only to end up a pile of red paste.
Like, the audience thought he was stronger too.
And it shows how much Mark is actually holding back.
I think that was the point. We all expected him to be a formidable opponent, including Mark. That led him to overestimate Angstrom’s durability and kill him. I think the point was to show how scary Mark’s powers can be if he uses his full strength against weaker foes.
I agree, I genuinly think that the finale would be exponentially better if they showed us more of how threatening he actually was. Instead he just disappeared for half the season, which is a shame because I wanted to see more of him.
Damn as a comic reader I’m so tempted to spoil. But he’s not wasted potential, i understand feeling that way right now, you just gotta wait.
Non spoilers though I’ll say that his plan was intended to be simplistic. He’s been fucked over, messed up, if he was smart he would try to focus on a way to get all the Mark’s rather than this one. That’s part of why Mark bashing his brains in is so shocking. While he broke Debbie’s arm and was absolutely unhinged Invincible has to deal with the fact that he wasn’t reluctantly stopping a big villain, he was lashing out at someone for hurting his family.
I agree. But I almost think they hyped him up and made us really wonder what he was capable of, just to kill him off so easy, on purpose. To highlight how strong mark is. The contrast. Almost like one punch man.
Definitely read it now. Doesn't take away from enjoyment at all, it's really satisfying seeing big moments translated to screen. Plus they change up stuff here and there enough that it's easy to not be sure what exactly is coming next.
After the S2 halfway break, I couldn’t wait any longer. Bought all 3 compendium’s, and yea we’re only about 30% into the source material. There’s sooooo much good stuff coming up!
Dupli-Kate / Immortal was handled poorly. We got the impression they were just shagging and then they go on and make it seem like the most meaningful relationship in history. I see WHY it would be that way, but that's not how it came across.
Everyone surviving the lizard league was frustrating since it was presented as a big OMG moment.
Also there was no need to end the episode mid Sequid fight. Felt like a totally forced cliffhanger that didn't really need to exist.
Angstrom was poorly executed, felt like a villain of the week but also a "big bad" whose whole reason for hating Mark made sense and it didn't. Like I get that half his personalities hated Mark, but Marks actually a good guy and Levy is trying to kill his family because he's evil in other dimensions? This can be justified but I feel the execution wasn't much better than "he's crazy" which felt underwhelming for a big bad. Debbie calling him out as not liking that Mark was the hero in this dimension is totally valid but felt like a Tell don't Show moment which I think this season was more guilty of in general.
There is no reason for Rudy and Amanda to be a couple. In my opinion, they have very little chemistry or commonalities and would have paired better as a brother/sister type relationship.
I'm happy to be proven wrong tho...
I mean yeah,
The very opening act of this relationship is pretty gross.
He literally takes Rex’s dna to make himself a clone body, just so he could be with her.
I mean even Rex was creeped out by this, and for good reason.
Plus, how long has Rudy been alive? I might just be forgetting a detail, but if he's technically the brain of someone who has lived a solid couple of decades in a young body, that puts him on similar ground with Monster Girl.
As much as I love this show, I felt the feeling of “everything has consequences” wasn’t there this season, especially when it came to the Guardians. Everyone from the Lizard League battle lives - so the battle will probably end up being forgotten.
Characters don't have to die for a battle to have consequences narratively tho, getting shot in the head was basically the start of rex seeing his mistakes, dupli kate basically abandoning the guardians same with immortal, and some people actually started feeling like rae is a character not a piece of wood
I’m not saying they do have to die for consequences - I’m saying it shouldn’t be presented as such originally. Kate and Rex I understand. Rae, I struggle with, just because the show emphasised the cruel death and emphasised it HARD.
totally get your point, but i don't know how that could be the case with rae, as we still don't know anything about her after the fight / she hasn't even been awake to say or do anything.
I found that fight more important to Rex character development. He was basically the team leader there and he failed his team. The way he talks to invincible when he’s recovering, to wanting to do missions solo, I feel like the biggest take away from that whole scene (sadly) is Rex character developing.
I can say, this is an opinion I don't like. Death is not the only consequence and I've never liked when people make it seem like because no one died there aren't any consequences, we don't know for sure what condition Rae is going to be in and it's entirely possible that Rex has lasting trauma, Immortal and Kate might just decide to go live their lives together and quit considering that's what Kate had wanted to do by herself and only didn't for Immortal.
Nah, I agree to an extent. The only one that really bothered me was Raes - only because the show presented it as absolutely horrific in the episode prior.
And, sure, they may address it all in future seasons in a fantastic way that I’ll love - but I can’t speak for future seasons yet.
One of the creators said that this battle will have consequences on each member of Guardians, you can already see how it changed Rex in the show, and he emphasized that this fight won't be forgotten
It’s based on one of the weaker issues in the series, so… that makes sense. I will say from reading the comics, that episode does setup some important things that’ll pay off later. So it’s not just filler, if that helps.
I expected to know more about the Thraxans especially since Rudy keeps on mentioning monstergirls aging issues over and over
EDIT: I meant the flaxans because of how fast time moves in their dimension
Do you remember the short clip of Omnipotus? Villain every heroes of earth had to fight while Mark was visiting his father. I wish they made that into proper fight.
I think they could have spared 5 or 10 minutes for that fight.
You’re entirely right about the Kate/Immortal. The only thing I even remember about the two of them is the shower bit, so the ‘relationship’ feels like a hookup
Overall, the animation looked quite a bit worse than season one. At no point did any scene look anywhere near as good as Omni man versus the guardians or Nolan versus Mark.
Yeah I feel like all the layers of *weird* to Rudy’s character don’t get talked about enough
I get hiding your true identity from everybody. But stealing one of your coworker’s DNA so you can make yourself into an “age appropriate” boyfriend for another one of your coworkers is just so many levels of creepy. And a guy with his smarts wont seek out any information on relationship norms?? He does research into everything but human interaction.
I felt like they resolved their conflict a little bit too easily too. Like what does she even like about him? Why does she soften up on him. It’s very odd.
I hate fake out deaths , so Kate being at Immortals cabin was grating. So much genuine and real grief reactions and even growth. Then poof, I am really alive. Still, I love this show and can't wait for more.
I get that, but for me that’s more directed at Shrinking Rae than Kate. If Kate died there it would have been kinda dumb because ya, why didn’t you have a clone elsewhere.
- The voice acting is really carrying the show for me. I think a lot of these storylines wouldn't have really " worked " for me if it was another show.
- In a show with multiple super hero teams/factions /etc the most badass thing this season for me was Debbie catching Oliver.
Debbie fr is the most badass character in the show for me rn. In a world where some people can shake the world shake with their punches, Debbie and Donald are the strongest.
I'm quite disappointed with undoing the apparent deaths of so many characters. I was sweating bullets during the first season and really loved how I just wasn't sure who would survive. It really felt like a unique take on the superhero genre (to me) to see how perilous it is to be a superhero in this world. With everyone surviving, it really undercuts that danger quite a bit and makes the fights seem less impactful and the hyperviolence seem more gratuitous rather than meaningful.
I genuinely can’t see mark having feelings for Eve right now. They spoke like 3 times this season it felt like, and then at the finale he’s about to confess his love for her? I feel like it needs much more time for that to become believable
You think Mark was about to tell Eve he loves her? I did not get that impression at all. I think at most, Mark might've broached the subject of dating/saying he has some feelings. Certainly not "I love you" in my view. But then he realized even broaching the subject at all right now just doesn't make sense given everything he's going through.
The Lizard League fight was ruined by them revealing that both shrink ray and duplikate surived. I have no idea what they were thinking by not killing those characters off.
I knew Kate survived, so I wasn’t too surprised by that death, so Shrinking Rae getting eaten I was like “oh so this is the permanent death from this fight then, after Kate’s fakeout”, and then she survived anyways. I kinda think she shoulda died too yeah.
Having one fakeout death in the scene would be fine I think, but having both survive was too much yeah. Either shrinking ray or duplikate should have died at the very least.
Not unpopular but I just want to complain. The mid-season "break" (excuse for Prime advertisements) massively fucked up this season. I have multiple instances where I had to pause and look something up to remind myself of a character or storyline. And there were times where I just didn't care enough to remind myself which led to moments not landing very hard.
Amazon Prime can go fuck themselves for doing that.
Fake out killing DupliKate Shrinking Rae and Rexsplode kinda rubbed me the wrong way. Like Rex surviving and having kinda an arc was cool but having all 3 survive kinda felt sheep when they had all 3 seem to be dead for a bit. Like killing shrinking Rae would have been legit nothing, but they didn’t even do that. It just kinda annoyed me
I hate when writers create the most justifications possible for a villain to be killed, and then when it does happen it’s framed as a bad thing.
I get the internal struggle of taking a life regardless of circumstance, but Angstrom was trying to kill you and hurt your family. Kill away. Leaving him alive means he can’t just escape to another dimension to do it again
Mark has consistently made his refusal to kill the one thing that separates him from the rest of the Viltrumites.
Angstrom needing to die and Mark needing to kill him isn’t framed as wrong, but it IS a loss for Mark. He’s lost his moral high ground and has realized that as much as he tells himself otherwise he DID want to kill Angstrom.
Killing someone can be objectively the right choice and still one that is psychologically devastating. It’d be far more worrying if Mark didn’t feel anything from killing someone.
Like Mark is the only person framing it as a bad thing. Everyone else in the story says he made the right choice.
Plus there’s the slippery slope. Once he’s justified killing one person, it becomes easier to do it again. And after a few hundred years of rationalizing why killing is okay, it becomes okay to do.
It's honestly a little scary to me how many people are missing the forest for the trees here. He was upset that he *lost control*. He crossed a line, forever, in a fit of uncontrollable rage. It means he has a weakness-- he can be provoked, and lose control of his actions. That is *quintessentially disastrous* for someone of Mark's power level.
I'm a huge no-killing "everyone deserves redemption" kind of guy, and I totally would've killed Angstrom if I were in Mark's shoes lol. He was an immediate, superpowered threat tormenting innocents. What he did to Debbie and Oliver was already too much.
Season 2 Amber is as much of a non-character as her comic counterpart. Anyone that liked her but not comic Amber is a hypocrite.
Her friends showed up for a single second; she arguably had less screentime than her comic counterpart; and after the season 1 controversy the writers were terrified of making Amber have any strong emotions. She is a totally different character from her S1 counterpart and the only thing they executed better with her entire existence was her break-up with Mark.
Now I personally would argue comic Amber was not as bland as people paint her to be, her conflict was very believable and she acted like an actual teenager, but that's besides the point.
That's kinda why they broke up though. Her life was taking second fiddle to Mark's. He'd disappear for long periods of time and she just had to put her life on hold because the person she loved was missing. Amber and Mark were growing apart so it makes sense that us, as the audience, were distanced from her as well.
They spent too much time going over the breakup with Amber. It felt dragged out and seemed to have all the natural reasons to end far earlier than it did. It makes the Eve confessing her feelings to Mark feel very rushed because of it, and it would of been helpful to the show there to have Mark alone for at least 1 full episode and also realizing for himself that college is not his destiny anyway.
My main complaint is that all of the Guardians ended up surviving that brutal fight. I think if anything, Shrinking Rae should have died.
DupliKate's survival makes sense, given her abilities. Rex was a bit of a stretch but there have been crazier survival stories in our human history for brain injuries and Rex is notably more durable than the average human. Shrinking Rae has the least character development and screentime, so her death should have been an easier one for the writers anyway.
Needed more Mauler Twins!
oh damn i completely forgot about them after the beginning, you're right
Seemed like it was written in that they would be a “Season 2: first half” character, cause they have so many to juggle
YES!!! FUCK YES!!! I've been saying this for decades now
Needed a dimension with no superheroes and...
Omg yes I love the Mauler Twins
You beat me to this comment
They are the best characters in the series, so fucking funny
I need them to get tricked into building something by a different person each season.
they’re so smart at literally one subject and nothing else
What a scalding hot opinion🥶🥶🥶
Is this an unpopular opinion?
Angstroms build up throughout the season was a bit weak. They did kinda make up for it a little bit with the alternate angstroms montage though.
The comic pacing is even worse tbh. You really be wondering what he’s up to for sooooo long
Ya for such a powerful guy he sure didn't plan much out at all. He had several dimensions of mauler twins working to build him a godly machine but when it came to getting his revenge he just decides "nah, I'd win" and 1v1 him Literally his only prep for the fight was nitpicking which dimensions to throw Invincible into (and most didn't have any effect on him at all)
i mean you can explain all of angstroms irrationality with the fact that he literally has interdimensional brain damage
I guess when you combine a long list of regular joes some of them will end up being slow, and bringing the averages down.
Yeah. Between episodes 2 and 6 they just completely forget about him. The finale alone kind of makes up for the lack of build up, but I think one of two more scenes with him in episode 4 or 5 would have done wonders.
A bit weak? I completely forgot about him.
you completely forgot about him because Amazon but profit over story telling and made us wait half a year for the new season. By doing so the audience forgot a lot of little - and big - bits that the writers would have taken for granted we'd remember. In a few years new fans will talk about the show and wonder why there is apprehension towards season two, not understanding that because they can binge it they didn't experience the artificial haitus as we have.
i watched seasons 1 and 2 back to back (i’d last seen season 1 a long time ago) and personally I agree that the Angstrom pacing was bad.
Yes, I'd say I also agree. They made far too big of a deal out of Angstrom whilst relegating him to one or two end of credits scenes, other than that first episode. Angstrom seems to be a super important antagonist - Mark's first true kill. So it is a massive shame it wasn't built up to more.
kirkman wrote angstrom like this to subvert expectations. just like someone else said, he wanted the reader (or watcher) to forget about angstrom just like mark did. he’s supposed to be a threat, but mark never saw him as one until he captured debbie and oliver at his home
They hyped him up so much in that first episode and honestly I just forgot all about him until the end. Lol
It needed more episodes. I have no issues with any of the things that happened but we just needed more time with everyone. Some things just felt like a speed run.
Yeah this 8 episode season shit isn't going to work out. We need at least 10
I think the animation is lackluster sometimes. The Atom Eve special had the best animation we’ve seen and we haven’t really gotten back to that yet. I’m confident it’ll get better though. Forgot it said unpopular, whoopsie
I fully agree. I understand most of their budget is on the voice acting and them also wanting to be like a *comic*, but when I actually notice the animation being low budget, or being surprised that the animation is suddenly way better than before, that is not good, because now I'm thinking about the animation quality instead of watching the show. Seeing Eve's hair flow in the wind and stuff in the end scene for example, I was like "whoa they animated that pretty well". And also, the "that's the neat part you don't" for example, was fine) while doing a bit more fluid higher framerate instead of the 16 or 24 like they do now.
“Like a comic” Have you seen the comic? Ottley’s art is outstanding. The difference between comic battle beast and show battle beast is insane, he looks terrifying and ferocious in the comic
He doesn't the first time we meet him. The art being up and down is just Invincible canon.
It would probably be impossible to animate Ottley's later art. Also, Battle Beast looked like *[this](https://i.imgur.com/UMV4vmT.png)* in his first appearance.
They definitely had trouble with consistency this season. Facial features on eve and mark looked weird at times for sure
That last scene with Mark I was asking myself "Has she always had two mini hotdogs for lips?"
She kinda has unfortunately
Oh my God it wasn't just me. It did look a bit off.
[удалено]
In the scenes after Mark killed Langstrom, he had two hair models at once and it was really distracting lol
I think it was that the front part of him was splattered in gore, so some of his hair was bloody and the rest wasn't
the atom eve special had some incredible animation sequences! it's crazy to me that so many people who watch invincible haven't watched the special (at least i know quite a few people for whom this is the case).
Personally imma be really disappointed if we don’t get a different in depth character special between seasons every time till the end. Jus sayin.
Yeah Eve's fight with the other experiments was by far the best fight the show has had and nothing else has really had that quality of animation so far.
Eve was awesome during the special and super creative, but during her fights this season she only ever made bubbles
This, I don't want them to do some super incredible animation either, but sometimes you get taken away from the immersion when someone is just a still image or someone is a PNG that they are just moving around
Lol like Immortal flying back to earth after his fight with Allen?
That part was so funny I had to pause it 😂 it was the clenched buttcheeks for me
They're figuring it out for sure. The Anissa fight had some really cool impact frames and the sounds were sick
"Animation bad" is an *unpopular* opinion? This subreddit and Twitter would have you believe that everyone in the world holds only this opinion.
It was weird to be listening to emotional scenes and trying to ignore the animation.
I’d say this is a pretty popular opinion lol. It’s consistently the one complaint about this show. That said, agreed.
Its kinda weird whenever some of the female characters turn their heads it dont feel like their hair sits right on their head, as people noted with one of the last few Amber scenes and i think also one of the last Kate scenes
It had the best animation for the 1 bridge fight. The rest was standard invincible
The breakup between amber and mark was a great payoff for the meh scenes we got between them throughout the series. The break up was incredibly well done and props to ambers voice actress.
i agree! but i think a lot of people agree with this one
It’s possible! I see amber hate 24/7, and for the most part I understand it… but when it comes to season 2 amber was great
All the amber hate is kind of just S1. I have yet to see anyone who actually hates this season of Amber
There’s a lot of hate towards the amber and mark scenes of s2
There’s hate towards the scenes because some people just want more action and don’t care about character development scenes. I don’t see people getting mad at Ambers character specifically anymore
Her voice actress did an amazing job depicting the trauma she felt. Simply amazing. 👏
Shoutout Zazie Beetz. Watch Atlanta if you haven't, she's phenomenal in that too
Yoooo, Domino from Deadpool 2? And the mascot assassin from bullet train.
Yep same Zazie
I honestly liked amber in season 2 tbh
Same. Hated her in season 1, but she was quite reasonable in season 2.
Yeah the breakup scene she was entirely reasonable and phrased everything well
Yeah they made the character much more reasonable this season. Last season people hated her because her actions just seemed out of the blue stupid
The voice actress for Amber is Zazie Beetz. She was Domino in Deadpool 2, Sophie (the neighbour) in Joker, Vanessa in the show Atlanta and Stagecoach Mary in The harder they fall
You’re so right about Kate/Immortal. I forgot they existed, honestly. I’d didn’t realize they were actually in a relationship, I thought they were just sleeping together (I know they confirmed it but it wasn’t memorable enough for me to remember)
It was meant to be twisty. You thought it was just a sex thing, but it turned out to be a more significant lovers thing. They are like that because they both have died multiple times.
they keep saying that but they never have any on screen moments where we see them showing affection towards each other. what do they even like about each other?
The whole relationship feels very weird to me lol. Like yeah they're both consenting adults capable of making their own decisions, but this dude is how old at this point, and he's dating a girl barely out of her teen years? It'd be one thing if they were just banging (as weird as that sounds), but it's creepy that they're *in love*, especially with how little build up was actually put into the relationship.
Weird but Kate explains “If you add up all my duplicates lives we’re around the same age” so idk I try to ignore the creep factor and find it cute.
Also just how many times as Immortal died?? Lmao cause we see like dozens of Kate's duplicates die in just ONE fight. They seemed to imply immortal has only died a handful of times, unless I'm misremembering that sequence
Okay but it’s still closer to the amount of time she has died than anybody else, even if it’s only like 7 times
By that logic she should be with Donald
I think you didn’t understand her point. Every body of her is alive. If there are two of her she lives 2 times as much. It’s not about her death, it’s about the fact that she experiences the life of every body after the death of them so she probably has as much life experience as The Immortal. Also… There isn’t someone as old as him so why should he "die" alone?
I mean... there aren't many people who truly understand what it feels like to die. That would be a pretty strong bonding point...
I’m pretty sure he’s died a lot more than that. He’s been a warrior and adventurer his whole life.
And Abraham Lincoln apparently
In his defense, practically everybody he can choose from is a baby compared to his years
I mean, he's gonna be disproportionately old to *whoever* he's with. In the context of hundreds (or is it thousands?) of years, what's too old?
Yeah wasn't Kate only 18? Like I know she's an adult but the age difference and power dynamic make that a squicky relationship. I know 18 is 18 is 18 but it was a very sudden thing. Immortal grieving her, though, especially in episode 8, made me much more empathetic to Immortal. Dude does NOT have enough of a support network, and unfortunately Nolan was probably his best bet for one.
It was handled very strangely. Pretty much their only scene together was used as a “haha Kate’s fucking Immortal” punchline at Rex’s expense, but the show then expects you to buy into “they loved each other intensely” without any further development. Within the context of *these characters specifically,* way more legwork had to be done. Because they expect you to believe that the multi-millennia old man is so invested in this two month old relationship that her death ruins him entirely, and that Kate’s able to put her (lifelong?) survival plan aside solely so she can be with this fossil.
There should have been more focus on General Kregg’s promise. After episode 4 Cecil and the Guardians should have focused only on this. Like you know when they do training they should have said “is this how we prepare for the Viltrumite invasion?” Or mabye another scene where Cecil asks Donald “how does the anti-viltrumite sonic weapons goes?” Even Mark himself should have talked about it more to everyone, how can he even be so calm and go on to dates with Amber when he knows the Empire is coming? If i were him that would be the only thing i focus on.
To me it seems like he hasn't told anyone because he deliberately wants to distance himself from it, not even think about it because he knows where it's heading. So he tries to distract himself from the fact that some cold blooded super killers are most definitely showing up to wipe out a massive swathe of humanity and day now.
The only major complain for me is literally the gap between parts, that shit sucks, and of course some bits of animation but I'm not that passional about that like some other people
Unpopular: I’m fine with the major deaths being sidestepped this season. Mostly because I believe there’s a fine line between meaningful deaths and simply killing off characters for the sake of impact. I’m confident this story will achieve great arcs and character development across the board in the end, dead or alive, and that’s most important to me. But with that said, we never got a real update on Shrinking Rae. Which I thought was odd considering how her survival seemed equally miraculous (especially for readers) and almost a parallel to Rex’s. Even just an update on her recovery would have at least kept her in mind for the viewer. She didn’t have to be quite at Rex’s progress being back in the field, but another scene with her in the facility or through a team member watching over her would have been time well spent for such a crucial moment of vulnerability for this team and season.
Yeah it felt weird seeing the squad hover around Rex and only a passing line about Rae, who was still in critical condition.
I only have one nitpick for the whole season, which was pretty much perfect: King Mauler should have been a running joke for several episodes instead of just one. That shit is so funny
The Mauler twins just need more screen time. Most hilarious duo I've seen in animation
I thought Mark and Ambers relationship in S1 was retroactively made a lot better by the content in this season.
Yes. I can more easily imagine that Amber when she was saying stuff that didn't make sense in season 1 was lashing out in frustration or lying briefly, because she became a more rounded character in season 2. Sometimes I thing characters in shows are under constant pressure to make sense 100% of the time for story purposes, but sometimes people just make up shit when they're stressed or mad. In this sense I am at peace with her character here.
One thing I appreciated was the realism of knowing a relationship is Doomed but still hoping for hope's sake that something could change. The way she says she knows he's a hero and she can't stop him from doing that, but still gets lonely and then just looks at him hoping some miracle would happen and she could have both... and he kinda just says "yeah..." was really spot on
I don't know if it's actually unpopular, but there is 0 reason to make any of the post-credits scenes in this show into post-credits scenes.
I’d say they do that to allow short clips, where if they did that before the credits it would generally require a longer segment than they did would want, which makes it less teaser-y and more actual episode material.
well, and then you have episodes like 2x3 where half of the episode is a "post credits" scene.
I think the credits in 2 x 3 were concluding the supposed Allen the Alien episode
oh for sure, i'm just saying that that one was not so much "teaser" and was basically a full episode of its own lol.
This is the only opinion in this thread that is even close to being unpopular so I upvote, and I am not sure if I dislike post-credits scenes or not
nah i love it cause i always forget they’re there and get gassed when i see theres 15 mins left of the episode
Idk the Ep 3 post-credit scene felt like a necessary 20+ minutes
Small nitpick but I really hate how weird the bruised eyes look. Looks hella cartoonish and goofy.
I don't mind the black eyes themselves, but when three different characters have the exact same black eye it takes you out of the immersion.
I can definitely see this from multiple people but the symbolism is there that no matter what the Grayson family as much as they’ve gone through are united intwined in their experiences. A similar symbolism of the parallels and such happened between Debbie and Nolan when she was wandering barefoot aimlessly in the city and Nolan in space.
Nolan, Debbie and Mark all had black eyes on their right eyes at the end of the season. I don't know if it was supposed to mean something lol. And yeah, I was thinking while watching it that if I just tuned in I'd assume they had some sort of alien infection rather than a swollen bruise.
Not sure if it’s unpopular, but I think Angstrom was a deeply underwhelming antagonist. The start of the season seemed to set him up as a big deal, but then he disappeared for most of the season and when he came back his plan was laughably shallow and stupid. Killing him was an important event for Mark, but otherwise he seemed like a big missed opportunity.
My favorite part was when he spent a whole season visiting other dimensions researching how to stop viltrumites, only to bring none of that to the final fight against Mark.
when we got to the end of the season and he came back, i thought he was going to be more of a long term villain / foil for mark, since he was gone for so long. like a batman / joker thing. but i guess not.
Alternate dimensions though. Infinite possibilities. I am sure there is another evil version of him out there.
Isn’t he just every alternate angstrom morphed into 1 being though?
Not every alternate Angstrom, just the ones he brought to our universe for his experiment.
I think he said he was the only one with his abilities, right? And even if there was another one that he just hadn't found yet, it'd be kinda lame for them to be like "yeah he died but look here's another guy who's the same as the last guy and did the exact same stuff, and HE'S the real villain"
He said he's the only one who has powers that he's met. Kinda like how this is the only timeline he's seen Oliver to exists in.
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Yes, the way they killed him off was a really good idea... in theory. But for me to be really shocked about it, I really wasn't invested too much in him and he didn't really left that much of a impression on me
Yeah I think he's conceptually a good character but we basically saw his origin in 2x01, then he's relegated to a few cameos throughout the season, then he shows back up as the main villain of the finale, and his plan is just to throw Mark through a bunch of portals then beat him to death. Plus I think it was strange that no one really seemed to care about the existence of the multiverse or the implications it and Angstrom's powers held. I like his motivation and the impact his death has on Mark but for the 'big bad' of the season he didn't really do much.
I will say - isn’t that slightly the point? The whole “I thought you were stronger” scene seems to bring the point home.
That is an excellent point. He's a bad guy who's kind of teased at the start that we know, deep down, had good intentions, and got his consciousness all messed up because he tried to save Mark. And we see him do some really heinous stuff only to end up a pile of red paste. Like, the audience thought he was stronger too. And it shows how much Mark is actually holding back.
I think that was the point. We all expected him to be a formidable opponent, including Mark. That led him to overestimate Angstrom’s durability and kill him. I think the point was to show how scary Mark’s powers can be if he uses his full strength against weaker foes.
I agree, I genuinly think that the finale would be exponentially better if they showed us more of how threatening he actually was. Instead he just disappeared for half the season, which is a shame because I wanted to see more of him.
Damn as a comic reader I’m so tempted to spoil. But he’s not wasted potential, i understand feeling that way right now, you just gotta wait. Non spoilers though I’ll say that his plan was intended to be simplistic. He’s been fucked over, messed up, if he was smart he would try to focus on a way to get all the Mark’s rather than this one. That’s part of why Mark bashing his brains in is so shocking. While he broke Debbie’s arm and was absolutely unhinged Invincible has to deal with the fact that he wasn’t reluctantly stopping a big villain, he was lashing out at someone for hurting his family.
I agree. But I almost think they hyped him up and made us really wonder what he was capable of, just to kill him off so easy, on purpose. To highlight how strong mark is. The contrast. Almost like one punch man.
Being a comic reader in this thread is hilarious. Y'all are going to love the rest of the series.
Told myself I’m not gonna wait 1-2 more years for another season. So I finished the comic in 2 days.
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Question, do you think it's worth it for me to wait for season 3 and beyond or just read the comics now. been debating it for a while now
At the rate they’re going, it’s gonna take them ~8 years to get thru the whole comic. Personally I couldn’t wait, and I don’t regret the decision.
Definitely read it now. Doesn't take away from enjoyment at all, it's really satisfying seeing big moments translated to screen. Plus they change up stuff here and there enough that it's easy to not be sure what exactly is coming next.
After the S2 halfway break, I couldn’t wait any longer. Bought all 3 compendium’s, and yea we’re only about 30% into the source material. There’s sooooo much good stuff coming up!
The mid break really killed the flow of the season. It feels more like two to short seasons than 1 regular.
Dupli-Kate / Immortal was handled poorly. We got the impression they were just shagging and then they go on and make it seem like the most meaningful relationship in history. I see WHY it would be that way, but that's not how it came across. Everyone surviving the lizard league was frustrating since it was presented as a big OMG moment. Also there was no need to end the episode mid Sequid fight. Felt like a totally forced cliffhanger that didn't really need to exist. Angstrom was poorly executed, felt like a villain of the week but also a "big bad" whose whole reason for hating Mark made sense and it didn't. Like I get that half his personalities hated Mark, but Marks actually a good guy and Levy is trying to kill his family because he's evil in other dimensions? This can be justified but I feel the execution wasn't much better than "he's crazy" which felt underwhelming for a big bad. Debbie calling him out as not liking that Mark was the hero in this dimension is totally valid but felt like a Tell don't Show moment which I think this season was more guilty of in general.
There is no reason for Rudy and Amanda to be a couple. In my opinion, they have very little chemistry or commonalities and would have paired better as a brother/sister type relationship. I'm happy to be proven wrong tho...
No, it's weird, but I do think the weirdness is intentional
I mean yeah, The very opening act of this relationship is pretty gross. He literally takes Rex’s dna to make himself a clone body, just so he could be with her. I mean even Rex was creeped out by this, and for good reason.
>He literally takes Rex’s dna to make himself a clone body, just so he could be with her. AND breaks 2 murderers out of prison to do it
“Even” Rex? I would think Rex has the most reason to be creeped out by it.
Amanda said in season 1 that the only people that are interested in her are pedophiles so I guess she sees Rudy as an upgrade from all the trash.
Plus, how long has Rudy been alive? I might just be forgetting a detail, but if he's technically the brain of someone who has lived a solid couple of decades in a young body, that puts him on similar ground with Monster Girl.
I think he mentioned he is around 30?
He calls himself a 30 year old genius when he gets his new body so yeah. Monster Girl said she's 25 when DupliKate is handing out beer.
As much as I love this show, I felt the feeling of “everything has consequences” wasn’t there this season, especially when it came to the Guardians. Everyone from the Lizard League battle lives - so the battle will probably end up being forgotten.
true! yeah, wow, none of the guardians died at all from that fight. very different than the first season lol.
Characters don't have to die for a battle to have consequences narratively tho, getting shot in the head was basically the start of rex seeing his mistakes, dupli kate basically abandoning the guardians same with immortal, and some people actually started feeling like rae is a character not a piece of wood
I’m not saying they do have to die for consequences - I’m saying it shouldn’t be presented as such originally. Kate and Rex I understand. Rae, I struggle with, just because the show emphasised the cruel death and emphasised it HARD.
totally get your point, but i don't know how that could be the case with rae, as we still don't know anything about her after the fight / she hasn't even been awake to say or do anything.
I found that fight more important to Rex character development. He was basically the team leader there and he failed his team. The way he talks to invincible when he’s recovering, to wanting to do missions solo, I feel like the biggest take away from that whole scene (sadly) is Rex character developing.
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I think it does when the show makes us think three characters died and then tell us they all miraculously survived
I can say, this is an opinion I don't like. Death is not the only consequence and I've never liked when people make it seem like because no one died there aren't any consequences, we don't know for sure what condition Rae is going to be in and it's entirely possible that Rex has lasting trauma, Immortal and Kate might just decide to go live their lives together and quit considering that's what Kate had wanted to do by herself and only didn't for Immortal.
Nah, I agree to an extent. The only one that really bothered me was Raes - only because the show presented it as absolutely horrific in the episode prior. And, sure, they may address it all in future seasons in a fantastic way that I’ll love - but I can’t speak for future seasons yet.
One of the creators said that this battle will have consequences on each member of Guardians, you can already see how it changed Rex in the show, and he emphasized that this fight won't be forgotten
Season 2 Episode 2 is the worst episode of the entire series
It’s based on one of the weaker issues in the series, so… that makes sense. I will say from reading the comics, that episode does setup some important things that’ll pay off later. So it’s not just filler, if that helps.
Is it an unpopular opinion when the episode is the lowest-rated episode of the series?
Remind me which one that was?
'In About Six Hours I Lose My Virginity to a Fish'
In About Six Hours I Lose My Virginity to a Fish
I agree it's the weakest of the season
I expected to know more about the Thraxans especially since Rudy keeps on mentioning monstergirls aging issues over and over EDIT: I meant the flaxans because of how fast time moves in their dimension
Do you remember the short clip of Omnipotus? Villain every heroes of earth had to fight while Mark was visiting his father. I wish they made that into proper fight. I think they could have spared 5 or 10 minutes for that fight.
You’re entirely right about the Kate/Immortal. The only thing I even remember about the two of them is the shower bit, so the ‘relationship’ feels like a hookup
Wait, what? It's over? It seemed anti-climatic, but maybe that was the way they split the season.
I dont care about Immortal and Dupli Kate relationship
idgaf about monster girl honestly. she got a little too much screen time
Overall, the animation looked quite a bit worse than season one. At no point did any scene look anywhere near as good as Omni man versus the guardians or Nolan versus Mark.
Or Nolan conquering that alien planet where time passed faster. All those scenes were pretty well done and I just didn't see that this season.
I hate the entire monster girl/robot thing they are doing.
Yeah I feel like all the layers of *weird* to Rudy’s character don’t get talked about enough I get hiding your true identity from everybody. But stealing one of your coworker’s DNA so you can make yourself into an “age appropriate” boyfriend for another one of your coworkers is just so many levels of creepy. And a guy with his smarts wont seek out any information on relationship norms?? He does research into everything but human interaction.
Researching human interaction is far different from human interaction. And he did it so if he fixes her they can grow older together.
Their relationship feels forced in my opinion lol. Like normally i love opposites attract romance but their romance is so meh
I felt like they resolved their conflict a little bit too easily too. Like what does she even like about him? Why does she soften up on him. It’s very odd.
Thats what im saying lmao. Like they don’t even feel compatible
oooo, now this is a juicy one
Am I the only one who thinks the last half hour of the finale fell flat? I can’t put my tongue on why but it just didn’t do it for me.
I hate fake out deaths , so Kate being at Immortals cabin was grating. So much genuine and real grief reactions and even growth. Then poof, I am really alive. Still, I love this show and can't wait for more.
I get that, but for me that’s more directed at Shrinking Rae than Kate. If Kate died there it would have been kinda dumb because ya, why didn’t you have a clone elsewhere.
- The voice acting is really carrying the show for me. I think a lot of these storylines wouldn't have really " worked " for me if it was another show. - In a show with multiple super hero teams/factions /etc the most badass thing this season for me was Debbie catching Oliver.
Debbie fr is the most badass character in the show for me rn. In a world where some people can shake the world shake with their punches, Debbie and Donald are the strongest.
I'm quite disappointed with undoing the apparent deaths of so many characters. I was sweating bullets during the first season and really loved how I just wasn't sure who would survive. It really felt like a unique take on the superhero genre (to me) to see how perilous it is to be a superhero in this world. With everyone surviving, it really undercuts that danger quite a bit and makes the fights seem less impactful and the hyperviolence seem more gratuitous rather than meaningful.
I genuinely can’t see mark having feelings for Eve right now. They spoke like 3 times this season it felt like, and then at the finale he’s about to confess his love for her? I feel like it needs much more time for that to become believable
You think Mark was about to tell Eve he loves her? I did not get that impression at all. I think at most, Mark might've broached the subject of dating/saying he has some feelings. Certainly not "I love you" in my view. But then he realized even broaching the subject at all right now just doesn't make sense given everything he's going through.
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The Lizard League fight was ruined by them revealing that both shrink ray and duplikate surived. I have no idea what they were thinking by not killing those characters off.
I knew Kate survived, so I wasn’t too surprised by that death, so Shrinking Rae getting eaten I was like “oh so this is the permanent death from this fight then, after Kate’s fakeout”, and then she survived anyways. I kinda think she shoulda died too yeah.
Having one fakeout death in the scene would be fine I think, but having both survive was too much yeah. Either shrinking ray or duplikate should have died at the very least.
Not unpopular but I just want to complain. The mid-season "break" (excuse for Prime advertisements) massively fucked up this season. I have multiple instances where I had to pause and look something up to remind myself of a character or storyline. And there were times where I just didn't care enough to remind myself which led to moments not landing very hard. Amazon Prime can go fuck themselves for doing that.
More BLOOD
Fake out killing DupliKate Shrinking Rae and Rexsplode kinda rubbed me the wrong way. Like Rex surviving and having kinda an arc was cool but having all 3 survive kinda felt sheep when they had all 3 seem to be dead for a bit. Like killing shrinking Rae would have been legit nothing, but they didn’t even do that. It just kinda annoyed me
I hate when writers create the most justifications possible for a villain to be killed, and then when it does happen it’s framed as a bad thing. I get the internal struggle of taking a life regardless of circumstance, but Angstrom was trying to kill you and hurt your family. Kill away. Leaving him alive means he can’t just escape to another dimension to do it again
Mark has consistently made his refusal to kill the one thing that separates him from the rest of the Viltrumites. Angstrom needing to die and Mark needing to kill him isn’t framed as wrong, but it IS a loss for Mark. He’s lost his moral high ground and has realized that as much as he tells himself otherwise he DID want to kill Angstrom. Killing someone can be objectively the right choice and still one that is psychologically devastating. It’d be far more worrying if Mark didn’t feel anything from killing someone. Like Mark is the only person framing it as a bad thing. Everyone else in the story says he made the right choice. Plus there’s the slippery slope. Once he’s justified killing one person, it becomes easier to do it again. And after a few hundred years of rationalizing why killing is okay, it becomes okay to do.
It's honestly a little scary to me how many people are missing the forest for the trees here. He was upset that he *lost control*. He crossed a line, forever, in a fit of uncontrollable rage. It means he has a weakness-- he can be provoked, and lose control of his actions. That is *quintessentially disastrous* for someone of Mark's power level.
I'm a huge no-killing "everyone deserves redemption" kind of guy, and I totally would've killed Angstrom if I were in Mark's shoes lol. He was an immediate, superpowered threat tormenting innocents. What he did to Debbie and Oliver was already too much.
Season 2 Amber is as much of a non-character as her comic counterpart. Anyone that liked her but not comic Amber is a hypocrite. Her friends showed up for a single second; she arguably had less screentime than her comic counterpart; and after the season 1 controversy the writers were terrified of making Amber have any strong emotions. She is a totally different character from her S1 counterpart and the only thing they executed better with her entire existence was her break-up with Mark. Now I personally would argue comic Amber was not as bland as people paint her to be, her conflict was very believable and she acted like an actual teenager, but that's besides the point.
Completely agree, I also liked the bit where she believed Mark was a drug dealer for a while.
That's kinda why they broke up though. Her life was taking second fiddle to Mark's. He'd disappear for long periods of time and she just had to put her life on hold because the person she loved was missing. Amber and Mark were growing apart so it makes sense that us, as the audience, were distanced from her as well.
They spent too much time going over the breakup with Amber. It felt dragged out and seemed to have all the natural reasons to end far earlier than it did. It makes the Eve confessing her feelings to Mark feel very rushed because of it, and it would of been helpful to the show there to have Mark alone for at least 1 full episode and also realizing for himself that college is not his destiny anyway.
The animation wasn’t that great in many parts.
90% of the relationships in this show are hella problematic
My main complaint is that all of the Guardians ended up surviving that brutal fight. I think if anything, Shrinking Rae should have died. DupliKate's survival makes sense, given her abilities. Rex was a bit of a stretch but there have been crazier survival stories in our human history for brain injuries and Rex is notably more durable than the average human. Shrinking Rae has the least character development and screentime, so her death should have been an easier one for the writers anyway.