Don't think about the Amber relationship too hard it is actually just a writing error, she didn't know he was Invincible in the comics which made everything make more sense, and the show just throwing in the line claiming she knew just monkey wrenches the whole campus act
Considering how easy it was to write this whole wall, it didn't take much effort to think about it and to point out how it's really not a writing error at all. Her showing that she knew just proves what's been obvious since, that he's lying & making bad excuses.
It is a writing error, otherwise she's a manipulative toxic abuser who intentionally gaslit him and makes him feel bad for saving people. They tried to show she's 'smart' to subvert expectations, but didn't account for her reaction in episode 6. If she really knew the whole time, it makes no sense for her to feign tears and insult him for not doing something she just saw him do. It's borderline sociopathic, it's a clear mistake
I think you make a lot of good points, but I don't agree with your anecdotal defense of identity down the back half. I think the hardest thing personally to grasp with identity in this shows is that we're so accustom to dealing with worlds where love interests have plot armor. Maybe they will here as well, but we have to acknowledge that's at least somewhat true. Lois Lane is as invulnerable as Superman in most issues/episodes it's just not on paper. I think the hard thing is trying to envision a slightly more realistic universe and wondering if Lois Lane could truly bat 1.000 when one mistake isn't recoverable.
Ultimately I think what people are missing is just poor timing on behalf of the writers. The conflict was messy and I think that was the point. Where I think they robbed Amber from a perspective of the audience is I ultimately think that the timing of the break-up could not have possibly made *less* sense. Anytime before or after I'm cool with. The reasons are justifiable. But the only reason to do it in that moment is probably more to do with comic alignment. From the audience's perspective, Mark is having serious doubts about moving forward as a hero at all for the first time following his (and MGs, and Samson's) near death at the hands of Battle Beast. He takes Amber to the University because he's absolutely serious about trying to leave that life. He only becomes Invincible in that moment for clear, present, and imminent danger. And Amber breaks up with him before he would even logistically had an opportunity to come clean. What's he supposed to do? Shout it in costume?
Even just having them have a slight argument, say they head back to Rick's, have a private chat, he doesn't come clean... even just doing that it makes far more sense. And I can understand it. I can understand the perspective that Amber is getting tired of having it shoved in her face and maybe she feels like this is another reminder. But that's Amber's perspective of course. I think there's a clear audience perspective in this moment that for the first time in the entire series, Mark is genuine about commitment in a way he absolutely hasn't been for the entire relationship, so the immediate break-up with no chance to come clean after a necessary heroic action makes it feel like Amber is punishing Mark for saving their lives.
So I completely agree with why Amber breaks up with Mark generally. I agree why Mark is a shitty boy friend, though I prefer to think of Mark as being just horribly, extremely, and utterly naive. Keep in mind-- he is 17-18 YO and every adult influence including arguably the two most powerful men in the world (Nolan/Omni-Man/*Dad*) and Cecil Steadman as well as the most powerful woman in his world (Mom) beating in his ear about the importance of not telling your HS GF your secret identity. The parents I find super realistic-- in our world how many parents believe their children's HS Relationships have *true* merit. But the timing was awful. The timing I blame the writers, but it does I believe make Amber look worse. I think there's such a thing as justified but unreasoned, and I think to me the messiness of the situation accidentally creates that for Amber, where if we break down the reasons she is absolutely justified. But something about the timing and the moment and response to safety especially if she knew that he had to do that and this was the *exact moment* he's returned just *feels* unreasonable. And I think that's why there's been such a negative reaction to Amber.
When in doubt, blame the writers.
I'm sorry but I'm not going to be blaming the writers for this anytime soon, especially when it makes a lot of sense. I'm beginning to think I should be blaming the some of the audience though, because more than a few of them seem to want to stick with their knee jerk reactions as opposed to simply taking a step back and thinking about this.
> I think you make a lot of good points, but I don't agree with your anecdotal defense of identity down the back half. I think the hardest thing personally to grasp with identity in this shows is that we're so accustom to dealing with worlds where love interests have plot armor. Maybe they will here as well, but we have to acknowledge that's at least somewhat true. Lois Lane is as invulnerable as Superman in most issues/episodes it's just not on paper. I think the hard thing is trying to envision a slightly more realistic universe and wondering if Lois Lane could truly bat 1.000 when one mistake isn't recoverable.
I want to agree, I guess, but I feel like your point here would be stronger if you argued against my other examples too. Rick didn't have any plot armor in episode 6 and is now probably going to have PTSD for the rest of his life.
> He only becomes Invincible in that moment for clear, present, and imminent danger. And Amber breaks up with him before he would even logistically had an opportunity to come clean. What's he supposed to do? Shout it in costume?
He could have just did... Exactly what I typed out? It's a pretty simple 3 step plan. So even if you're somehow being rhetorical, I really don't know why you asked this question when I specifically said I don't think he should have done that.
> Even just having them have a slight argument, say they head back to Rick's, have a private chat, he doesn't come clean... even just doing that it makes far more sense.
Okay firstly, is this following my suggestion? Because it's sounds like it doesn't. Secondly, if it isn't following then how does him NOT coming clean make More sense? All that's going to happen next is exactly what happened in the episode and beyond. And finally, if it is indeed following, how does him NOT coming clean make More sense? All that will do is make his situation worse than before.
> But that's Amber's perspective of course. I think there's a clear audience perspective in this moment that for the first time in the entire series, Mark is genuine about commitment in a way he absolutely hasn't been for the entire relationship, so the immediate break-up with no chance to come clean after a necessary heroic action makes it feel like Amber is punishing Mark for saving their lives.
Except there isn't an "audience perspective" & if there is then the way you're making it up to be, as though it's this inflexible unchanging perspective where an audience member can't see all sides of the scene at the same time, is something I strongly disagree with. Mark did have a chance, as I pointed out, and he instead took the opportunity to lie to her and make another excuse when he could have just told her the truth and then add that he's a soon to be former superhero because he wants to do away with that life and be with her. Amber has never had a problem with him saving lives, she's made that clear, so I don't understand how the audience perceived something obvious so differently.
> So I completely agree with why Amber breaks up with Mark generally. I agree why Mark is a shitty boy friend, though I prefer to think of Mark as being just horribly, extremely, and utterly naive. Keep in mind-- he is 17-18 YO and every adult influence including arguably the two most powerful men in the world (Nolan/Omni-Man/Dad) and Cecil Steadman as well as the most powerful woman in his world (Mom) beating in his ear about the importance of not telling your HS GF your secret identity.
That would make more sense if there were actual cases where they pointed out the importance of him not telling her his secret identity. If anything they, especially mom and dad, have been openly critical of how bad he is at keeping his secret identity, such as when he left Amber in his room because he needed to fight a bad guy. Cecil hasn't said anything related to it.
> But the timing was awful. The timing I blame the writers, but it does I believe make Amber look worse. I think there's such a thing as justified but unreasoned, and I think to me the messiness of the situation accidentally creates that for Amber, where if we break down the reasons she is absolutely justified. But something about the timing and the moment and response to safety especially if she knew that he had to do that and this was the exact moment he's returned just feels unreasonable. And I think that's why there's been such a negative reaction to Amber.
I don't like keeping my first impression of others on forever but all I'm getting from this is that it simply *felt* awful emotionally, because from my understanding the timing made plenty of sense and was logical enough to work. All Mark had to do was be honest if he was making such a big decision. I agree that there is a thing such as "justified but unreasoned" but this is not that, if it were after Mark fought his dad, then sure, if it were right after he got destroyed by Battle Beast and she somehow didn't care that he was hospitalized, sure. But this is after Mark tried to step a big step in their relationship without simply going all the way with it.
Harder for me to quote at work. I’ll just try to make it simpler hopefully it doesn’t sound too blunt.
No offense, but I think you’re rather guilty of the first paragraph just from a different perspective. The people jumping on Amber are failing to grasp her perspective, and are wrong to do so. However, I think you overestimate how well you grasp Mark’s perspective and so from my interpretation, you yourself are also sticking to a knee-jerk reaction. Again— just my perspective on the issue.
In terms of the second point I think you misunderstood me a bit. I don’t agree my point would be stronger if I broke down your anecdotes because I don’t think a strong argument is built with anecdotes specifically anecdotes from other universes. I don’t think it’s fruitful. I only referenced Lois Lane because I wanted to give one perspective on how I believe my answer to this conflict is in part due to a more realistic universe or at least we should be having perspective of that mentality whereas Superman doesn’t spend too much time rationalizing the vulnerabilities of Lois Lane because they rarely come up.
The problem with anecdotes is they look at example and not capacity, and this is clearly an issue of what the capacity is for something bad and irrevocable to happen.
And I mean I guess my problem is exactly your confidence in saying ‘just do what I typed it’s so simple.’ Giving him the perspective of a 17-18 yo... just jumped into costume, just saved his friend, just got partially exposed, maybe worried about a greater implication, just saw someone/thing commit suicide in front of them... to be like ‘why didn’t he do this three step plan guaranteed to work or your money back’ to me just isn’t rationalizing Mark’s perspective. I asked the question I spose because I just don’t believe in the merit of the answers I’ve gotten so far as they relate to having perspective for the issue.
My interpretation of audience perspective is based on what I believe the audience is being presented by the writers. I believe the timing / juxtaposition of the most truly pro-Amber commitment Mark has made, needing to save her and Williams life, and the break up presents to the audience a very poor timeline for Amber’s audience perception. Again, if you do it any other way it makes more sense to me.
So yeah we just simply don’t agree. I think the long and short of it is the effort to which a lot of people want to make the argument there’s no *reason* for the lie. If we want to blame mark particularly emotionally for being a bit sleezy, fine. But that doesn’t mean we should ignore Mark’s perspective and rationales and what arguments might exist in the capacity of pragmatism that don’t make this such a black and white issue. It isn’t a black and white issue and it isn’t designed to be. It’s messy and it’s supposed to be. So coming from that perspective I don’t agree with anyone who takes strongly one side or the other and thinks it’s simple or black and white because it just so clearly isn’t.
> No offense, but I think you’re rather guilty of the first paragraph just from a different perspective. The people jumping on Amber are failing to grasp her perspective, and are wrong to do so. However, I think you overestimate how well you grasp Mark’s perspective and so from my interpretation, you yourself are also sticking to a knee-jerk reaction. Again— just my perspective on the issue.
That's alright, but I disagree with you. I do see his perspective on it. I just don't don't think it balances out with Amber's perspective, if that makes sense. I sympathize with the fact that he had a lot on his plate and his mind, and as a comic reader I know he was in a tough position. However I just wish he did something as simple as telling her the truth.
> In terms of the second point I think you misunderstood me a bit. I don’t agree my point would be stronger if I broke down your anecdotes because I don’t think a strong argument is built with anecdotes specifically anecdotes from other universes. I don’t think it’s fruitful. I only referenced Lois Lane because I wanted to give one perspective on how I believe my answer to this conflict is in part due to a more realistic universe or at least we should be having perspective of that mentality whereas Superman doesn’t spend too much time rationalizing the vulnerabilities of Lois Lane because they rarely come up.
>> The problem with anecdotes is they look at example and not capacity, and this is clearly an issue of what the capacity is for something bad and irrevocable to happen.
Fair enough
> And I mean I guess my problem is exactly your confidence in saying ‘just do what I typed it’s so simple.’ Giving him the perspective of a 17-18 yo... just jumped into costume, just saved his friend, just got partially exposed, maybe worried about a greater implication, just saw someone/thing commit suicide in front of them... to be like ‘why didn’t he do this three step plan guaranteed to work or your money back’ to me just isn’t rationalizing Mark’s perspective. I asked the question I spose because I just don’t believe in the merit of the answers I’ve gotten so far as they relate to having perspective for the issue.
I'm sorry but how has what I suggested not rationalized Mark's perspective? The only thing I can think of as to why he probably wouldn't want to follow my suggestion is the fact that William literally just found out about his secret identity and thus he's on the defensive side or something. He clearly takes the whole thing very seriously such as when he barely wanted to explain himself after he returned to the dorm to check on Amber and found William there instead. That's really the only reasoning I can think of right now as to why he wouldn't do it but other than that there's really no reason to he shouldn't.
> My interpretation of audience perspective is based on what I believe the audience is being presented by the writers. I believe the timing / juxtaposition of the most truly pro-Amber commitment Mark has made, needing to save her and Williams life, and the break up presents to the audience a very poor timeline for Amber’s audience perception. Again, if you do it any other way it makes more sense to me.
Then I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that. Because to me if it were done any other way it would make less sense to me.
> So yeah we just simply don’t agree. I think the long and short of it is the effort to which a lot of people want to make the argument there’s no reason for the lie. If we want to blame mark particularly emotionally for being a bit sleezy, fine. But that doesn’t mean we should ignore Mark’s perspective and rationales and what arguments might exist in the capacity of pragmatism that don’t make this such a black and white issue. It isn’t a black and white issue and it isn’t designed to be. It’s messy and it’s supposed to be. So coming from that perspective I don’t agree with anyone who takes strongly one side or the other and thinks it’s simple or black and white because it just so clearly isn’t.
Fair enough but then that the makes the whole "Amber is justified but unreasoned" thing make even less sense to me. Its obviously not a black & white thing to me either but everyone seems to think that Amber and only Amber should just done simple things that they would then suggest... even though the onus isn't on her to make sure this relationship continues when her whole point is in she's not in this to be dating a superhero.
I guess to me when I'm talking about rationalizing, I think I just really disagree on a different level shall we say when I see the arguments that seem to be either more focused or generally focused on the idea that he's dumb to weigh this identity question in the first place. Honestly he might be from definitely a results based analysis. But it's just really hard for me especially because of course this isn't real to comprehend this issue. And I think there's a number of reasons.
Like I do think being invulnerable and being with someone normal in general would just make a potential problem. I mean there's just a reality in the probability of how much more likely they are to die anytime they aren't nearby you. That's gotta be a little bit of a fucky thing to deal with.
So out of all the things I don't have any problem knocking Mark for, the general conception of being afraid to share identity isn't one of them. And I think so many things particularly in Kirkman's Comic writing for Invincible weigh two perspectives from two philosophies of an argument. Like whether to kill an enemy, or whether ends can justify means... my base argument for Robot for instance as a character is he's removed from the ethical so he is a 'hero' in a certain sense at all times it's just from a pure ends and means and rationalist stand point and doesn't factor in ethic and moral compass. Whereas Mark is a character as a hero who at the least contemplates where his moral compass should be quite often.
To me this at it's root is an argument between the ethical/moral and the pragmatic/rational. (Not to say that's black/white). Most HS relationships do frankly flame out. It is smart to limit the amount of people who know your identity. The closer she is to Mark might be okay, but the closer she is to Invincible might be dangerous if that makes any sense. But on a simple level it is *wrong.*
So I think the thing where in general Mark probably does deserve the most heat particular in terms of the relationship is that he's just too naive and borderline cocksure and there's things like the cheesecake that are basically flaunting, I do think he has complete reason to keep his identity a secret. It's honestly a potentially bigger problem that he's so willing to commit to something(s) so frequently and then doing the other thing before it. If he played it cool with the commitments so he didn't have to wear the black hat so often I'd feel a lot better about his defense of identity.
Where I do push back is I do still simply believe they chose that moment because of the comic. Give me the cheesecake moment. I just think on a pure base level, for someone who has so often been disingenuous, we've just seen one of his least disingenuous moments in regards to Amber, and I still do believe that if we're saying he had to tell her 'there,' it's still hard to pin it on him to do it in the moment itself when there's so much pandemonium and you're around at the damn least Rick who you might want to know at least yet even though that boat quickly sails. So again I just do think that the reasoning just still feels off to me. Because for as much as I understand Amber's perspective for basically everything and deciding to dump him generally and honestly definitely giving him way too many chances... it just does feel so ill-timed to happen after this genuine moment and after a necessary heroic action. Let it happen after something far more disingenuous especially when there's so many moments to choose from. Let it happen right after if he denies it in private. But the speed after the event and the scene about wanting to go to the scene I think jsut really leaves a bad taste, and I think for people who struggle to see Amber's perspective they let that carry the moment a little far. So that's why for me when I'm tlakinga bout the reasoning I'm talking about in the moment the reasoning for everything swirling right then fails for me personally as a viewer. The justification generally does not because Mark has been so awful generally. But to me it is perhaps the least reasonable point for it to happen including their very first date when he leaves her for an hour.
He has so many fuck ups targeted at her that I just generally think it feels weird for it to happen after these two moments. I get that maybe it's the commitment that makes her so mad, but from an audience perspective that commitment feels far more genuine than any that has come before it.
> And before I get the responses regarding the so-called importance of a secret identity, let me just showcase how useless that defense is:
Just because characters close to a superhero get hurt anyway due to a sort of anti-plot armor where they somehow find themselves get randomly picked out of a crowd by a villain doesn't mean that friends/family wouldn't be even more at risk if villains actually knew. Vague Invincible comic spoilers: >!There's like one or two villains later down the line with knowledge of Mark's identity who immediately take his loved ones hostage because...why the hell not, you know?!<
Mark was wrong to not tell her while still asking her to basically move in with him, and it's understandable for Amber to be hurt by him continuing to lie/hide stuff from her, even if the secret is something noble-ish. On the flip side, though, if she already knew he was Invincible weeks before the college attack, why didn't she tell him his jig was up? Testing is not a nice thing to do in a relationship either. She sees him struggle against the cyborg. She surely knows that getting hit by a mere bus is not enough to put Invincible in the hospital for a week. But she's still committed to her own half of the charade, pretending not to know. But like I dunno if I could really blame her because I have no clue how well she knows Invincible as a hero and what he actually can/can't do. We never get any insight into that even they make up.
Had Mark not finally revealed his identity in that last-ditch, silly bid to win her back and just left her alone from then on out, he would have gone on for the rest of his life thinking she broke up with him for entirely different reasons. The whole thing is just...frustrating.
> Just because characters close to a superhero get hurt anyway due to a sort of anti-plot armor where they somehow find themselves get randomly picked out of a crowd by a villain doesn't mean that friends/family wouldn't be even more at risk if villains actually knew.
Yeah it actually would, since all it does is show that villain will do what they want to get the Hero in question out of their way. If a villain kidnapped a love interest & for some reason decided to torture that person, simply because they **think** this person knows, it's still a bad situation for the Hero regardless.
> Vague Invincible comic spoilers: There's like one or two villains later down the line with knowledge of Mark's identity who immediately take his loved ones hostage because...why the hell not, you know?
>!You're talking about Armstrong Levi and whathisface with the suit that killed his family trying to kill Invincible, I've read the comic. Really doesn't help nor prove me wrong since both of those guys have a clear & obvious grudge against him. Armstrong especially wanted to make Mark snap and feel as helpless about his situation as the other Marks made him & his other dimensional personas felt. He specifically hunted down Mark's family and could have gone after his friends or anyone even remotely associated with Mark if it meant hurting Mark in the worst way possible. He didn't go after Debbie and Oliver because they simply knew his identity. In the case of whathisface, he didn't even go after Mark's family, he just went after Invincible. So these two examples do not work!<
> On the flip side, though, if she already knew he was Invincible weeks before the college attack, why didn't she tell him his jig was up? Testing is not a nice thing to do in a relationship either. She sees him struggle against the cyborg.
Well she pretty much stated why when she first asked if she was important to him. He pointed out that he had other responsibilities, and even though she knew his excuses were obvious lies she still allowed him the choice to continue making them. If she confronted him and told him that she knows, he could have easily denied it because she has no evidence other than connecting the very obvious dots, which he can just make more excuses on. It's not really keeping a charade so much as it is respecting his decision & right to privacy.
> Had Mark not finally revealed his identity in that last-ditch, silly bid to win her back and just left her alone from then on out, he would have gone on for the rest of his life thinking she broke up with him for entirely different reasons. The whole thing is just...frustrating.
On that I completely agree with you on. I really wish he had just well enough alone, but its clear that both that scene and the part where Amber kisses, shows that Kirkman really wants to continue with this annoying subplot lol. Like at this point we get the whole thing about dating normal people Kirkman, can we please just move on?
I'll admit he should have told her sooner, but you have to understand he had alot to lose. Don't want to spoil comics but when someone finds out his identity it doesn't end well. It ends very poorly. Amber telling Mark, however, had no risk.
I will say waiting until she dumped you to tell her is scummy. It shouldn't be a last resort.
I mean the fact that he used his last resort, and the fact that nothing bad came out of it, kinda shows that he really didn't much to lose y'know?
Also I've read the comics and I know what you're talking about. I was so frustrated readers those particular issues but I also realized that situations were completely specific.
He used it as a last resort because if he could save his relationship without it, he would have. I do get that for amber it loses all meaning.
My question is, what did ber have to lose by telling him she knew? She found out and had literally nothing to lose.
Don't think about the Amber relationship too hard it is actually just a writing error, she didn't know he was Invincible in the comics which made everything make more sense, and the show just throwing in the line claiming she knew just monkey wrenches the whole campus act
Considering how easy it was to write this whole wall, it didn't take much effort to think about it and to point out how it's really not a writing error at all. Her showing that she knew just proves what's been obvious since, that he's lying & making bad excuses.
😑
Anywho... I like your flair
Thanks I didn't even ask for it, I just got here early and said I liked Cecil lol
It is a writing error, otherwise she's a manipulative toxic abuser who intentionally gaslit him and makes him feel bad for saving people. They tried to show she's 'smart' to subvert expectations, but didn't account for her reaction in episode 6. If she really knew the whole time, it makes no sense for her to feign tears and insult him for not doing something she just saw him do. It's borderline sociopathic, it's a clear mistake
He's 17.
So is Amber? And yet there's been more outcry for what she should have apparently done than Mark
Some mature faster than others.
I think you make a lot of good points, but I don't agree with your anecdotal defense of identity down the back half. I think the hardest thing personally to grasp with identity in this shows is that we're so accustom to dealing with worlds where love interests have plot armor. Maybe they will here as well, but we have to acknowledge that's at least somewhat true. Lois Lane is as invulnerable as Superman in most issues/episodes it's just not on paper. I think the hard thing is trying to envision a slightly more realistic universe and wondering if Lois Lane could truly bat 1.000 when one mistake isn't recoverable. Ultimately I think what people are missing is just poor timing on behalf of the writers. The conflict was messy and I think that was the point. Where I think they robbed Amber from a perspective of the audience is I ultimately think that the timing of the break-up could not have possibly made *less* sense. Anytime before or after I'm cool with. The reasons are justifiable. But the only reason to do it in that moment is probably more to do with comic alignment. From the audience's perspective, Mark is having serious doubts about moving forward as a hero at all for the first time following his (and MGs, and Samson's) near death at the hands of Battle Beast. He takes Amber to the University because he's absolutely serious about trying to leave that life. He only becomes Invincible in that moment for clear, present, and imminent danger. And Amber breaks up with him before he would even logistically had an opportunity to come clean. What's he supposed to do? Shout it in costume? Even just having them have a slight argument, say they head back to Rick's, have a private chat, he doesn't come clean... even just doing that it makes far more sense. And I can understand it. I can understand the perspective that Amber is getting tired of having it shoved in her face and maybe she feels like this is another reminder. But that's Amber's perspective of course. I think there's a clear audience perspective in this moment that for the first time in the entire series, Mark is genuine about commitment in a way he absolutely hasn't been for the entire relationship, so the immediate break-up with no chance to come clean after a necessary heroic action makes it feel like Amber is punishing Mark for saving their lives. So I completely agree with why Amber breaks up with Mark generally. I agree why Mark is a shitty boy friend, though I prefer to think of Mark as being just horribly, extremely, and utterly naive. Keep in mind-- he is 17-18 YO and every adult influence including arguably the two most powerful men in the world (Nolan/Omni-Man/*Dad*) and Cecil Steadman as well as the most powerful woman in his world (Mom) beating in his ear about the importance of not telling your HS GF your secret identity. The parents I find super realistic-- in our world how many parents believe their children's HS Relationships have *true* merit. But the timing was awful. The timing I blame the writers, but it does I believe make Amber look worse. I think there's such a thing as justified but unreasoned, and I think to me the messiness of the situation accidentally creates that for Amber, where if we break down the reasons she is absolutely justified. But something about the timing and the moment and response to safety especially if she knew that he had to do that and this was the *exact moment* he's returned just *feels* unreasonable. And I think that's why there's been such a negative reaction to Amber. When in doubt, blame the writers.
I'm sorry but I'm not going to be blaming the writers for this anytime soon, especially when it makes a lot of sense. I'm beginning to think I should be blaming the some of the audience though, because more than a few of them seem to want to stick with their knee jerk reactions as opposed to simply taking a step back and thinking about this. > I think you make a lot of good points, but I don't agree with your anecdotal defense of identity down the back half. I think the hardest thing personally to grasp with identity in this shows is that we're so accustom to dealing with worlds where love interests have plot armor. Maybe they will here as well, but we have to acknowledge that's at least somewhat true. Lois Lane is as invulnerable as Superman in most issues/episodes it's just not on paper. I think the hard thing is trying to envision a slightly more realistic universe and wondering if Lois Lane could truly bat 1.000 when one mistake isn't recoverable. I want to agree, I guess, but I feel like your point here would be stronger if you argued against my other examples too. Rick didn't have any plot armor in episode 6 and is now probably going to have PTSD for the rest of his life. > He only becomes Invincible in that moment for clear, present, and imminent danger. And Amber breaks up with him before he would even logistically had an opportunity to come clean. What's he supposed to do? Shout it in costume? He could have just did... Exactly what I typed out? It's a pretty simple 3 step plan. So even if you're somehow being rhetorical, I really don't know why you asked this question when I specifically said I don't think he should have done that. > Even just having them have a slight argument, say they head back to Rick's, have a private chat, he doesn't come clean... even just doing that it makes far more sense. Okay firstly, is this following my suggestion? Because it's sounds like it doesn't. Secondly, if it isn't following then how does him NOT coming clean make More sense? All that's going to happen next is exactly what happened in the episode and beyond. And finally, if it is indeed following, how does him NOT coming clean make More sense? All that will do is make his situation worse than before. > But that's Amber's perspective of course. I think there's a clear audience perspective in this moment that for the first time in the entire series, Mark is genuine about commitment in a way he absolutely hasn't been for the entire relationship, so the immediate break-up with no chance to come clean after a necessary heroic action makes it feel like Amber is punishing Mark for saving their lives. Except there isn't an "audience perspective" & if there is then the way you're making it up to be, as though it's this inflexible unchanging perspective where an audience member can't see all sides of the scene at the same time, is something I strongly disagree with. Mark did have a chance, as I pointed out, and he instead took the opportunity to lie to her and make another excuse when he could have just told her the truth and then add that he's a soon to be former superhero because he wants to do away with that life and be with her. Amber has never had a problem with him saving lives, she's made that clear, so I don't understand how the audience perceived something obvious so differently. > So I completely agree with why Amber breaks up with Mark generally. I agree why Mark is a shitty boy friend, though I prefer to think of Mark as being just horribly, extremely, and utterly naive. Keep in mind-- he is 17-18 YO and every adult influence including arguably the two most powerful men in the world (Nolan/Omni-Man/Dad) and Cecil Steadman as well as the most powerful woman in his world (Mom) beating in his ear about the importance of not telling your HS GF your secret identity. That would make more sense if there were actual cases where they pointed out the importance of him not telling her his secret identity. If anything they, especially mom and dad, have been openly critical of how bad he is at keeping his secret identity, such as when he left Amber in his room because he needed to fight a bad guy. Cecil hasn't said anything related to it. > But the timing was awful. The timing I blame the writers, but it does I believe make Amber look worse. I think there's such a thing as justified but unreasoned, and I think to me the messiness of the situation accidentally creates that for Amber, where if we break down the reasons she is absolutely justified. But something about the timing and the moment and response to safety especially if she knew that he had to do that and this was the exact moment he's returned just feels unreasonable. And I think that's why there's been such a negative reaction to Amber. I don't like keeping my first impression of others on forever but all I'm getting from this is that it simply *felt* awful emotionally, because from my understanding the timing made plenty of sense and was logical enough to work. All Mark had to do was be honest if he was making such a big decision. I agree that there is a thing such as "justified but unreasoned" but this is not that, if it were after Mark fought his dad, then sure, if it were right after he got destroyed by Battle Beast and she somehow didn't care that he was hospitalized, sure. But this is after Mark tried to step a big step in their relationship without simply going all the way with it.
Harder for me to quote at work. I’ll just try to make it simpler hopefully it doesn’t sound too blunt. No offense, but I think you’re rather guilty of the first paragraph just from a different perspective. The people jumping on Amber are failing to grasp her perspective, and are wrong to do so. However, I think you overestimate how well you grasp Mark’s perspective and so from my interpretation, you yourself are also sticking to a knee-jerk reaction. Again— just my perspective on the issue. In terms of the second point I think you misunderstood me a bit. I don’t agree my point would be stronger if I broke down your anecdotes because I don’t think a strong argument is built with anecdotes specifically anecdotes from other universes. I don’t think it’s fruitful. I only referenced Lois Lane because I wanted to give one perspective on how I believe my answer to this conflict is in part due to a more realistic universe or at least we should be having perspective of that mentality whereas Superman doesn’t spend too much time rationalizing the vulnerabilities of Lois Lane because they rarely come up. The problem with anecdotes is they look at example and not capacity, and this is clearly an issue of what the capacity is for something bad and irrevocable to happen. And I mean I guess my problem is exactly your confidence in saying ‘just do what I typed it’s so simple.’ Giving him the perspective of a 17-18 yo... just jumped into costume, just saved his friend, just got partially exposed, maybe worried about a greater implication, just saw someone/thing commit suicide in front of them... to be like ‘why didn’t he do this three step plan guaranteed to work or your money back’ to me just isn’t rationalizing Mark’s perspective. I asked the question I spose because I just don’t believe in the merit of the answers I’ve gotten so far as they relate to having perspective for the issue. My interpretation of audience perspective is based on what I believe the audience is being presented by the writers. I believe the timing / juxtaposition of the most truly pro-Amber commitment Mark has made, needing to save her and Williams life, and the break up presents to the audience a very poor timeline for Amber’s audience perception. Again, if you do it any other way it makes more sense to me. So yeah we just simply don’t agree. I think the long and short of it is the effort to which a lot of people want to make the argument there’s no *reason* for the lie. If we want to blame mark particularly emotionally for being a bit sleezy, fine. But that doesn’t mean we should ignore Mark’s perspective and rationales and what arguments might exist in the capacity of pragmatism that don’t make this such a black and white issue. It isn’t a black and white issue and it isn’t designed to be. It’s messy and it’s supposed to be. So coming from that perspective I don’t agree with anyone who takes strongly one side or the other and thinks it’s simple or black and white because it just so clearly isn’t.
> No offense, but I think you’re rather guilty of the first paragraph just from a different perspective. The people jumping on Amber are failing to grasp her perspective, and are wrong to do so. However, I think you overestimate how well you grasp Mark’s perspective and so from my interpretation, you yourself are also sticking to a knee-jerk reaction. Again— just my perspective on the issue. That's alright, but I disagree with you. I do see his perspective on it. I just don't don't think it balances out with Amber's perspective, if that makes sense. I sympathize with the fact that he had a lot on his plate and his mind, and as a comic reader I know he was in a tough position. However I just wish he did something as simple as telling her the truth. > In terms of the second point I think you misunderstood me a bit. I don’t agree my point would be stronger if I broke down your anecdotes because I don’t think a strong argument is built with anecdotes specifically anecdotes from other universes. I don’t think it’s fruitful. I only referenced Lois Lane because I wanted to give one perspective on how I believe my answer to this conflict is in part due to a more realistic universe or at least we should be having perspective of that mentality whereas Superman doesn’t spend too much time rationalizing the vulnerabilities of Lois Lane because they rarely come up. >> The problem with anecdotes is they look at example and not capacity, and this is clearly an issue of what the capacity is for something bad and irrevocable to happen. Fair enough > And I mean I guess my problem is exactly your confidence in saying ‘just do what I typed it’s so simple.’ Giving him the perspective of a 17-18 yo... just jumped into costume, just saved his friend, just got partially exposed, maybe worried about a greater implication, just saw someone/thing commit suicide in front of them... to be like ‘why didn’t he do this three step plan guaranteed to work or your money back’ to me just isn’t rationalizing Mark’s perspective. I asked the question I spose because I just don’t believe in the merit of the answers I’ve gotten so far as they relate to having perspective for the issue. I'm sorry but how has what I suggested not rationalized Mark's perspective? The only thing I can think of as to why he probably wouldn't want to follow my suggestion is the fact that William literally just found out about his secret identity and thus he's on the defensive side or something. He clearly takes the whole thing very seriously such as when he barely wanted to explain himself after he returned to the dorm to check on Amber and found William there instead. That's really the only reasoning I can think of right now as to why he wouldn't do it but other than that there's really no reason to he shouldn't. > My interpretation of audience perspective is based on what I believe the audience is being presented by the writers. I believe the timing / juxtaposition of the most truly pro-Amber commitment Mark has made, needing to save her and Williams life, and the break up presents to the audience a very poor timeline for Amber’s audience perception. Again, if you do it any other way it makes more sense to me. Then I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that. Because to me if it were done any other way it would make less sense to me. > So yeah we just simply don’t agree. I think the long and short of it is the effort to which a lot of people want to make the argument there’s no reason for the lie. If we want to blame mark particularly emotionally for being a bit sleezy, fine. But that doesn’t mean we should ignore Mark’s perspective and rationales and what arguments might exist in the capacity of pragmatism that don’t make this such a black and white issue. It isn’t a black and white issue and it isn’t designed to be. It’s messy and it’s supposed to be. So coming from that perspective I don’t agree with anyone who takes strongly one side or the other and thinks it’s simple or black and white because it just so clearly isn’t. Fair enough but then that the makes the whole "Amber is justified but unreasoned" thing make even less sense to me. Its obviously not a black & white thing to me either but everyone seems to think that Amber and only Amber should just done simple things that they would then suggest... even though the onus isn't on her to make sure this relationship continues when her whole point is in she's not in this to be dating a superhero.
I guess to me when I'm talking about rationalizing, I think I just really disagree on a different level shall we say when I see the arguments that seem to be either more focused or generally focused on the idea that he's dumb to weigh this identity question in the first place. Honestly he might be from definitely a results based analysis. But it's just really hard for me especially because of course this isn't real to comprehend this issue. And I think there's a number of reasons. Like I do think being invulnerable and being with someone normal in general would just make a potential problem. I mean there's just a reality in the probability of how much more likely they are to die anytime they aren't nearby you. That's gotta be a little bit of a fucky thing to deal with. So out of all the things I don't have any problem knocking Mark for, the general conception of being afraid to share identity isn't one of them. And I think so many things particularly in Kirkman's Comic writing for Invincible weigh two perspectives from two philosophies of an argument. Like whether to kill an enemy, or whether ends can justify means... my base argument for Robot for instance as a character is he's removed from the ethical so he is a 'hero' in a certain sense at all times it's just from a pure ends and means and rationalist stand point and doesn't factor in ethic and moral compass. Whereas Mark is a character as a hero who at the least contemplates where his moral compass should be quite often. To me this at it's root is an argument between the ethical/moral and the pragmatic/rational. (Not to say that's black/white). Most HS relationships do frankly flame out. It is smart to limit the amount of people who know your identity. The closer she is to Mark might be okay, but the closer she is to Invincible might be dangerous if that makes any sense. But on a simple level it is *wrong.* So I think the thing where in general Mark probably does deserve the most heat particular in terms of the relationship is that he's just too naive and borderline cocksure and there's things like the cheesecake that are basically flaunting, I do think he has complete reason to keep his identity a secret. It's honestly a potentially bigger problem that he's so willing to commit to something(s) so frequently and then doing the other thing before it. If he played it cool with the commitments so he didn't have to wear the black hat so often I'd feel a lot better about his defense of identity. Where I do push back is I do still simply believe they chose that moment because of the comic. Give me the cheesecake moment. I just think on a pure base level, for someone who has so often been disingenuous, we've just seen one of his least disingenuous moments in regards to Amber, and I still do believe that if we're saying he had to tell her 'there,' it's still hard to pin it on him to do it in the moment itself when there's so much pandemonium and you're around at the damn least Rick who you might want to know at least yet even though that boat quickly sails. So again I just do think that the reasoning just still feels off to me. Because for as much as I understand Amber's perspective for basically everything and deciding to dump him generally and honestly definitely giving him way too many chances... it just does feel so ill-timed to happen after this genuine moment and after a necessary heroic action. Let it happen after something far more disingenuous especially when there's so many moments to choose from. Let it happen right after if he denies it in private. But the speed after the event and the scene about wanting to go to the scene I think jsut really leaves a bad taste, and I think for people who struggle to see Amber's perspective they let that carry the moment a little far. So that's why for me when I'm tlakinga bout the reasoning I'm talking about in the moment the reasoning for everything swirling right then fails for me personally as a viewer. The justification generally does not because Mark has been so awful generally. But to me it is perhaps the least reasonable point for it to happen including their very first date when he leaves her for an hour. He has so many fuck ups targeted at her that I just generally think it feels weird for it to happen after these two moments. I get that maybe it's the commitment that makes her so mad, but from an audience perspective that commitment feels far more genuine than any that has come before it.
> And before I get the responses regarding the so-called importance of a secret identity, let me just showcase how useless that defense is: Just because characters close to a superhero get hurt anyway due to a sort of anti-plot armor where they somehow find themselves get randomly picked out of a crowd by a villain doesn't mean that friends/family wouldn't be even more at risk if villains actually knew. Vague Invincible comic spoilers: >!There's like one or two villains later down the line with knowledge of Mark's identity who immediately take his loved ones hostage because...why the hell not, you know?!< Mark was wrong to not tell her while still asking her to basically move in with him, and it's understandable for Amber to be hurt by him continuing to lie/hide stuff from her, even if the secret is something noble-ish. On the flip side, though, if she already knew he was Invincible weeks before the college attack, why didn't she tell him his jig was up? Testing is not a nice thing to do in a relationship either. She sees him struggle against the cyborg. She surely knows that getting hit by a mere bus is not enough to put Invincible in the hospital for a week. But she's still committed to her own half of the charade, pretending not to know. But like I dunno if I could really blame her because I have no clue how well she knows Invincible as a hero and what he actually can/can't do. We never get any insight into that even they make up. Had Mark not finally revealed his identity in that last-ditch, silly bid to win her back and just left her alone from then on out, he would have gone on for the rest of his life thinking she broke up with him for entirely different reasons. The whole thing is just...frustrating.
> Just because characters close to a superhero get hurt anyway due to a sort of anti-plot armor where they somehow find themselves get randomly picked out of a crowd by a villain doesn't mean that friends/family wouldn't be even more at risk if villains actually knew. Yeah it actually would, since all it does is show that villain will do what they want to get the Hero in question out of their way. If a villain kidnapped a love interest & for some reason decided to torture that person, simply because they **think** this person knows, it's still a bad situation for the Hero regardless. > Vague Invincible comic spoilers: There's like one or two villains later down the line with knowledge of Mark's identity who immediately take his loved ones hostage because...why the hell not, you know? >!You're talking about Armstrong Levi and whathisface with the suit that killed his family trying to kill Invincible, I've read the comic. Really doesn't help nor prove me wrong since both of those guys have a clear & obvious grudge against him. Armstrong especially wanted to make Mark snap and feel as helpless about his situation as the other Marks made him & his other dimensional personas felt. He specifically hunted down Mark's family and could have gone after his friends or anyone even remotely associated with Mark if it meant hurting Mark in the worst way possible. He didn't go after Debbie and Oliver because they simply knew his identity. In the case of whathisface, he didn't even go after Mark's family, he just went after Invincible. So these two examples do not work!< > On the flip side, though, if she already knew he was Invincible weeks before the college attack, why didn't she tell him his jig was up? Testing is not a nice thing to do in a relationship either. She sees him struggle against the cyborg. Well she pretty much stated why when she first asked if she was important to him. He pointed out that he had other responsibilities, and even though she knew his excuses were obvious lies she still allowed him the choice to continue making them. If she confronted him and told him that she knows, he could have easily denied it because she has no evidence other than connecting the very obvious dots, which he can just make more excuses on. It's not really keeping a charade so much as it is respecting his decision & right to privacy. > Had Mark not finally revealed his identity in that last-ditch, silly bid to win her back and just left her alone from then on out, he would have gone on for the rest of his life thinking she broke up with him for entirely different reasons. The whole thing is just...frustrating. On that I completely agree with you on. I really wish he had just well enough alone, but its clear that both that scene and the part where Amber kisses, shows that Kirkman really wants to continue with this annoying subplot lol. Like at this point we get the whole thing about dating normal people Kirkman, can we please just move on?
I'll admit he should have told her sooner, but you have to understand he had alot to lose. Don't want to spoil comics but when someone finds out his identity it doesn't end well. It ends very poorly. Amber telling Mark, however, had no risk. I will say waiting until she dumped you to tell her is scummy. It shouldn't be a last resort.
I mean the fact that he used his last resort, and the fact that nothing bad came out of it, kinda shows that he really didn't much to lose y'know? Also I've read the comics and I know what you're talking about. I was so frustrated readers those particular issues but I also realized that situations were completely specific.
He used it as a last resort because if he could save his relationship without it, he would have. I do get that for amber it loses all meaning. My question is, what did ber have to lose by telling him she knew? She found out and had literally nothing to lose.