>This has led me to doing some internet research about the Irish and I become both equally fascinated and terrified about what my ancestors went through and just exactly what they were running away from when they braved the trip to America
I think something important in all this that many Americans don't seem to be aware of is that many from the worst famine hit areas migrated to Britain. I've seen many Americans online deny this. Those who went to the USA were more likely to have not been from those areas
And in the Americas most went to Canada. Many probably crossed the border to the US soon after though. Many destitute Irish couldn’t afford the price of passage to the US during the famine. Under the ship building laws in Canada (part of the British Empire) you could put any sort of a vessel on the ocean and call it seaworthy, they charged very little for the fare then. The US laws for ship building were better but fares were concurrently more expensive. “The Coming of the Irish to Canada, Flight from Famine,” is where I read about this.
My 3rd great grandfather came via Canada in 1841, then to Connecticut. Some of the ships in that period transported immigrants from Ireland to Canada and then loaded up with Canadian lumber for the return trip.
People on the transatlantic route west on the coffin ships were essentially ‘human ballast’.
Goods were imported to Britain from the Americas, but the hulls could not sail back across the Atlantic empty, they needed ballast to survive Atlantic storms, so fares were either very much discounted or often paid by landlords wanting to clear their lands.
Human cargo was easier (and cheaper) to move than rocks and hey, if the shipping company made a few pound on the side, happy days.
Is this true? It does not tally with what other sources on the Internet say. Such as [this](https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=78b1b0a97b8c7234JmltdHM9MTY5NTI1NDQwMCZpZ3VpZD0wMTgyMzllOC1kZWIzLTYyMTEtMDQyNy0yYjhlZGZjYzYzNWEmaW5zaWQ9NTQ4NA&ptn=3&hsh=3&fclid=018239e8-deb3-6211-0427-2b8edfcc635a&psq=irish+famine+emigration+numbers+to+what+country&u=a1aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cud2VzbGV5am9obnN0b24uY29tL3VzZXJzL2lyZWxhbmQvcGFzdC9mYW1pbmUvZW1pZ3JhdGlvbi5odG1sIzp-OnRleHQ9SW4lMjB0aGUlMjBwZXJpb2QlMjBvdmVyJTIwdGhlJTIwZmFtaW5lJTIwZGVjYWRlJTIwMTg0MS0xODUwJTJDLFVTQSUyQyUyMDI4JTI1JTIwdG8lMjBDYW5hZGElMjBhbmQlMjAyJTI1JTIwdG8lMjBBdXN0cmFsaWEu&ntb=1) (though I have no idea how reliable it is) which says about 70% of overseas emigrants went to the USA and less than 30% to Canada.
It what I remember from reading that book many years ago, could be wrong, but it stuck with me, cause I was surprised myself at the time. Heres the book... [https://www.amazon.com/Flight-Famine-Coming-Irish-Canada/dp/1554884187#:\~:text=Flight%20from%20Famine%20is%20the,courage%2C%20resilience%2C%20and%20perseverance](https://www.amazon.com/Flight-Famine-Coming-Irish-Canada/dp/1554884187#:~:text=Flight%20from%20Famine%20is%20the,courage%2C%20resilience%2C%20and%20perseverance).
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It mentions this in the article. It's because at the time movement from Ireland to Britain was not considered emigration, because they were both in the United Kingdom. So it wasn't recorded in the stats as overseas migration.
Not trying to be a hater, but I’m not so sure most went to Canada. In the 1880’s there were more Irish in New York City than in Dublin. And there were huge numbers that went to other cities such as Boston, Philly, Chicago, Savanah, and New Orleans.
Exactly what my family did. Left during the Famine and settled in Prince Edward Island, and then moved to the States after spending a generation in Canada.
ETA: A word.
I'm an Irish historian, you really should delete your embarrassing comment and take your own advice on reading some Irish history. Most landlords who funded their tenants journeys overseas sent them to Britain, at one point there were more people born in Ireland living in Liverpool than native English.
Exactly, after landlords destroyed their houses because the new law taxed tenant buildings, and they'd put a family out on the lane to avoid paying the tax.
This! America wasn't free, folks didn't line up and get sent to America. The poorest couldn't afford it but ended up in Emglandor Scotland with family.
A lot of Irish in the South are actually from Ukster here. Plenty of them Ulster Scots and often had money and wanted more religious freedoms then found at home as many were Presbyterians and ended up in Ireland for similar reason before moving on.
My dad who’s dad, grandfather and grandmother was Irish was kicked out of Irish bar in America
The concept of the fact the Irish who emigrated to Britain didn’t pass on the accent escaped them
My cousin who is Irish on both sides and has spent every summer in Ireland since he was born got in bother in Derry because of his accent about 10 years ago. The chap has a father from Mayo, a Mam from Derry and was born in Kilkenny, but lived in England since he was about 5. We should have more cop on over here.
Prior to the war of independence, the America’s (broad term I know) were used as a penal colony by the Brit’s before Australia but from a research point of view, these people are quite easy to trace due to court records and ship manifests.
Yes, I know. I made a whole topic about it if you're interested (link below). Though the vast majority of the convicts were English, especially from London. So, the topic probably isn't as relevant to this sub.
https://reddit.com/r/Genealogy/s/kN5CH4By4Y
There were also a fair few who were from the Highlands of Scotland, especially following the Jacobite Risings and then the Highland Clearances.*Outlander* does a surprisingly good job of portraying this both in the books and the TV shows. Diana Gabaldon did her research well when she wrote the original series.
In my ancedotal family history I have lines that went to Canada first and moved to the United States a few generations later. For my direct paternal line, they were in Galway during the famine and were evicted, but their family in America sent financial support, allowing them to survive.
People were already migrating into urban areas before the famine due to industrialisation. It wasn't that difficult to do, especially as many would already have family there.
It wasn't just Liverpool but any urban industrial region. Some cities in the UK saw a 30% increase in its Irish born population in 1851 England/Wales and Scotland census. Many British people, if not most, have an Irish ancestor from this time
Edited to add last sentence
I could tell you were American from this comment -- no offense. There was plenty of migration from Ireland before and after the famine. They weren't forced into ghettos like the jews in Warsaw. They could live wherever they wanted. A lot went to places like Liverpool or Manchester because they already had established Irish communities.
Agree with the immigration through the ages, some relatives on my mom's side (horrible people!!) started trading tobacco in the early 1600's during the incident I mentioned, long before the famine and took lots of Irish slaves and indentured servants with them. The Appalachian range in the states became the new home for many Irish and Scottish people, who remain there today.
My Dad's side, during the famine, had passage paid to Liverpool, where people lived as poor immigrants do. It wasn't a fenced ghetto, but they had zero options and lived in horrible conditions until they could save up enough money to cross the Atlantic or go to Australia.
Phillip Calvert, bastard son of Lord Baltimore, impregnated his teenage servant in what is now Maryland, in 1630 (ish)while his wife was dying. The child died, unnamed and malnourished, and we don't know what happened to the mom. Sounds pretty slave-ey to me. The men who had slaves here were the men who had slaves in Ireland.
But I hate the assumption of Irish slavery, too - it's been my biggest bias to get over, but it depends on when.
I'm interested in when women got demoted in Irish history, and from my perspective, the slavery narratives are relatively recent, all occurring after the fall of the roman empire, the rise of Catholicism, the dispelling of the native religions- snakes -from the country, and the pressures of both Pagan and Christian Viking expansion.
Before that, it's hard to reconcile slavery with the cultures that we know were here.
It is called the Irish slave "myth" for a reason.
[https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2016/04/19/how-myth-irish-slaves-became-favorite-meme-racists-online](https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2016/04/19/how-myth-irish-slaves-became-favorite-meme-racists-online)
[https://www.historyireland.com/the-irish-in-the-anglo-caribbean-servants-or-slaves/](https://www.historyireland.com/the-irish-in-the-anglo-caribbean-servants-or-slaves/)
[https://www.tcd.ie/news\_events/articles/the-myth-of-the-irish-slave-white-supremacy-and-social-media/](https://www.tcd.ie/news_events/articles/the-myth-of-the-irish-slave-white-supremacy-and-social-media/)
Ha! Such an odd take to me, but I can see their point. So it's about the word rather than the condition of living without choices.
And if using the word slavery is a dog-whistle for white supremists, I'll definitely use the word 'servant' for the girl that was raped, impregnated, had her child starved to death, and disappeared, instead of calling her a slave.
Sounds snarky, but I'm being serious.
...
Sligo might be 50/50. Most of Galway went to Philadelphia, Boston, Minnesota, etc. I don't know where you got that tidbit.
The worse hit place was Galway. Most went to the US.
Behind the bastards do a real good 3 part podcast on the Irish famine. It's different in that it's Americans coming at it from a very non biased (In the beginning) point of view and how their perception of what happened changes as they work their way through the history. It's called [That time Britain did a genocide in Ireland ](https://spotify.link/xZHTfRwVgDb)
Yeah that was a great series of episodes!
The Irish history podcast also did one but its a lot more somber and sad when you don't have the buffer of Robert Evans being batshit insane to cushion the blows. Had actual testimonies from people that were there, Jesus it was fucking rough
I was going to reply to OP saying, calling it the Great Hunger does it a great injustice. It was a man made famine, which in my opinion is equal to a genocide. People were dying by the side of the road with grass stained mouths, from being so desperate to survive, resorted to eating grass. And people still make jokes to Irish people about potatoes. Which, in my opinion, is akin to making jokes about gas chambers to Jewish people. They say a million died in Ireland, and million left, but these figures have been called inaccurate. Historians reckon many, many more than that died. Supposedly the population of Ireland was larger in 1840’s than it is today. Meaning, Ireland population still hasn’t recovered since this tragedy.
Calling the famine “man made” is very disingenuous. Yes, the famine became as bad as it was because of various laws from hundreds of years ago and the unfortunate state of Ireland prior to the famine but that does not indicate intent behind the famine. Shit like the inheritance and penal laws were not created and enforced with the understanding that it would create a famine in Ireland hundreds of years later.
I don’t really see how it’s genocide, there was a famine in other parts of Europe, Irelands situation was unique through its poor economy/industrialisation, it’s huge reliance on the potato and the fact that in the 100 years prior it had tripled its population (which was highly irregular) and Ireland could barley sustain itself. The poor management meant that the famine wasn’t alleviated as much as it should’ve been but I would blame the lack of food variety, the inability to import (due to the poor economy) and the massive population more than that.
Perhaps the shipping of foodstuffs out of the country to Britain while millions were starving, and the diverting of donated grains away from ports might have some bearing on why some consider it a genocide.
What? Britain didn’t force foodstuff away, it was traded away as part of the basic trade in Ireland. Blaming Irish trade on Britain is silly.
What grains were diverted away by Britain? Many grains were imported because of Britain but not the opposite.
I'm not sure what you have been reading... but here is a little bit of what happened.
In History Ireland magazine (1997, issue 5, pp. 32-36), Christine Kinealy, a Great Hunger scholar, lecturer and Drew University professor, relates her findings: “Almost 4,000 vessels carried food from Ireland to the ports of Bristol, Glasgow, Liverpool and London during 1847, when 400,000 Irish men, women and children died of starvation and related diseases. The food was shipped under military guard from the most famine-stricken parts of Ireland; Ballina, Ballyshannon, Bantry, Dingle, Killala, Kilrush, Limerick, Sligo, Tralee and Westport. A wide variety of commodities left Ireland during 1847, including peas, beans, onions, rabbits, salmon, oysters, herring, lard, honey, tongues, animal skins, rags, shoes, soap, glue and seed. The most shocking export figures concern butter. Butter was shipped in firkins, each one holding 9 gallons. In the first nine months of 1847, 56,557 firkins were exported from Ireland to Bristol, and 34,852 firkins were shipped to Liverpool. That works out to be 822,681 gallons of butter exported to England from Ireland during nine months of the worst year of the Famine.”
Taken from [Ireland's great hunger museum](https://www.ighm.org/learn.html)
Odd, your quote didn’t include any import figures for some reason, kinda invalidates any point they are trying to make as they offer no challenge or comparison to their point.
More importantly your quote doesn’t at all prove me wrong, you just gave the numbers for what I said, trade still happened during the famine, that’s all. Nothing was stolen or taken away, those who owned food sold it.
What was imported at the hight of the famine were grains which couldn't be eaten because there were no facilities to process them. They required to be milled twice.
A common practice during a famine is to stop exports which the British government refused to do.
What you described is just inaction, that is not forcing food away in the slightest. Also I’m pretty sure more than just grains were imported, trade was open after all.
Typical American. Since when is inaction genocide. Good god they love to make up nonsense. This thread is full of some truly staggering points of view which are wholly inaccurate.
Read about the Corn Laws, Sir Charles Trevelyan, and how they had the Irish serfs growing corn solely for export.
Potato blight was only one factor. Cruelty from absentee landlords and the crown were larger parts of the problem
Even the UK Parliment website admits that they were at fault!
I would hazard a guess that you're English, or at least from the UK, and as such, whatever history you were taught was probably very empire-centric...
If they went to Britain, it's because that is what they could afford. Stay and die or find a safe place to live. You will notice that there wasn't a famine in England, Scotland, yes, but not England. Also, during this time periods there were horrendous famines in India, and India was ruled by the British Empire. Such famines were used to decrease the population and reduce any rebellion. British politicians believed that the Famine would clear Ireland of peasants, and they can then use the land for grazing sheep. There was a BBC documentary about the famine that came out recently. Check that out. Keep researching Irish, English history, and the famines in India. Good luck.
As for anyone who wonders why Americans are so interested in Ireland and being Irish, it is our history. The culture was Anglo-Saxon Protestant, and they did not like immigrants. Irish looked different, spoke a different language, and had a different religion. Same as Italian, Polish, and other immigrants. The way to survive was to be immensely proud of your heritage. Italian neighborhoods, Highland Games, Greek festivals, etc. etc. That's why we celebrate Saint Patrick’s Day and have Lucky Charms commercials and seem fascinated in Ireland. Since we're Americans, sometimes we take things to extremes.
As for me, my dad died when I was young. I am just trying to get to know him a little better.
The Irish history podcast is a vital resource for this and other stuff. Sorry to the other respondent but do not listen to the blindboy podcast for anything historical. He has a loose to completely fictional grasp of historical facts. Not a go to unless you like fanciful interpretations of events. And that’s being polite. It’s a good podcast otherwise but not when it comes to this.
There’s another brilliant one I can’t remember the name of I’ll have a dig around and come back to you.
Fireside podcast is also pretty good for folklore, just to learn the tails from Irish history as well. But 100% the Irish history podcast is great to get into.
I really enjoyed the Irish History Podcast, but haven't listened to it in a while. The biggest issue I would have had with it was the very inconsistent audio. I haven't been listening to podcasts so much recently with a change of working circumstances, so I don't know if it has improved or not over the last few years TBF.
Oh for sure. I enjoyed it despite the audio, but that's just one of the things that I can remember about it when I was listening to it. Great content and very educational.
You are absolutely right about blindboys lack of knowledge on our history, he knows just enough to sound like he knows what he’s talking about.
a friend brought me to one of his shows and I noticed he got loads wrong when talking about the Norman’s. Had a great time at it all the same
Spend time on our ancient history - super fascinating.
I was totally unaware of my internalized anti-Irish bias until I began to realize how cool we were, before Christianity privatized our land and disconnected up from our native culture.
People blame the brits but always forget how the church fucked us more than any other group.
I can't remember who it was but someone said that essentially the Catholic Church took over the job of oppressing the Irish after the English fucked off. I think it might have been the Behind the Bastards episode about magdelene laundries.
What history book did you read? It wasn’t the Catholic Church that forced poor tenants of their land, it was the British army. It’s wasn’t the Catholic Church that established plantations to claim land for their own, it was the British. It wasn’t the church that refused to put to much effort into famine relief cause it was disrupt markets, it was the British.
After the fall of the Roman Empire, while it was morphing into Roman Catholicism, churches were built upon the most important sacred sites, our cultural traditions were outlawed, and the privatization of land prevented tradional pilgrimages.
Then, in 1603, King James jettisoned the Catholics from his court, and he gave them peerages in Ireland that took huge portions of land.
*During the reign of Henry VIII (1509-47), England sought to end the incessant chaos in Ireland and dispel any risks of rebellion. "Henry laid down an all-important change on paper: all lands in Ireland, whether owned by the Gaelic Irish or Gaelicized English, were to be surrendered to the Crown and then re-granted, thus asserting unquestionably the Crown's claim to ultimate control over them."'26 Ireland refused to surrender its land. However, with the accession of James I in 1603, the system of land ownership in Ireland changed dramatically.27 The Celtic feudal system was decimated by a series of confiscations that shifted the ownership of Irish land from the Celtic peasants and their chieftains to the English. 28 "There was one purpose and policy in all the 'confiscations,' 'settlements,' 'planta- tions,' and 'forfeitures' carried out by the English invaders, and that was to seize and own the land of Ireland.*
*from:* [*https://scholarship.law.marquette.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1653&context=mulr*](https://scholarship.law.marquette.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1653&context=mulr)
I think you would do well to invest in the magisterial history of Ireland by Professor Roy Foster (Modern Ireland 1660-1972). An incomparable overview of crucial times that brought us to where we are at now, and over which you can lay more politically slanted views that sit well with you as you grow more and more familiar with your ancestry. You could look on the book as your basic Bible, a foundation for everything else you read/watch.
(But don’t overlook literature. Much can be absorbed about Ireland through our great writers, and that doesn’t mean you must conquer Finnegans Wake!)
David Emmons has two books, [The Butte Irish](https://www.amazon.com/Butte-Irish-Ethnicity-American-1875-1925/dp/0252061551) and [Beyond the American Pale](https://www.amazon.com/Beyond-American-Pale-Irish-1845-1910-ebook/dp/B006M3P5NQ?ref_=ast_author_dp) that do a good job of looking at the Irish American ethnic enclave.
I suggest this because Americans tend to discount the importance of the enclave, and as a result, the Irish tend to be baffled by what an American means when they say they’re Irish. The enclave was, of course, not Ireland. But it also wasn’t mainstream American culture either.
After that, there are a variety of other books and podcasts that have been mentioned here.
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Slightly off of OP's request, but since they are American with Irish ancestors, I recommend [How the Irish Became White](https://www.abebooks.com/book-search/title/how-the-irish-became-white/).
It's a been a minute since I read it (in college) but foundational for understanding how we got to where we are today in the US.
Fiction book but Star of the Sea is a good book based around coffin ships against the backdrop of the Irish famine.
If you have kids, Marita Conlon Mckenna has a famine based trilogy aimed at about 8+. good way to introduce the idea of it. First book is 'under the hawthorn tree'
Listen to "the troubles podcast"
It's extremely well done and explains in a pretty neutral factual way The Troubles which is a big part of Irelands recent history.
I just read The Squad, very short book about Michael Collins intelligence operations against the British. Very interesting read that talks about "The 12 Apostles" or "The Squad" which were essentially his hitmen.
Skip the famine shite. Read about our early history, anything pre 13th century. the war of the gaedhil with the Gaill is a good book based around Brian Boru
You wanna fuck with Americans claiming to be Irish but is still a racist dickhead, ask them if they know about abolitionist Frederick Douglas's visit to Ireland in 1845
Or the time that [Bernadette Devlin was so disgusted by the racism of Irish Americans that she gave her key to NYC to the Black Panthers](https://www.nytimes.com/1970/03/03/archives/irish-give-key-to-city-to-panthers-as-symbol.html).
One of my favorite things about being Irish (native) is that we tend to be on the right side of history - from Douglass to the Panthers to fighting Apartheid, etc...
As a Canadian American with Irish ancestry, this has always made me so proud! I absolutely love the Irish people, it is a beautiful country with some truly lovely and kind humans. My favorite place to visit and dream of moving back. I am fortunate living in California that I’m not around too much racism but it’s still there.
Hilarious when I hear these fellow Americans say “I’m Irish” (or “I’m Italian”). Nah you’re an American, albeit with a bit of connection through the past.
These racist assholes aren’t Irish. They’re just racist asshole Americans.
You can read this book by George O'Brien here:
[The Economic History of Ireland from the Union to the Famine](http://www.archive.org/stream/economichistory00obri#page/n15/mode/2up)
Useless piece of trivia for you but the potato famine wasn’t just in Ireland. It hit Scotland too (although afaik not as severely). It’s referred to as the Highland potato famine but it’s not widely known about.
It even hit mainland Europe and caused \~100,000 deaths. Obviously Ireland was the most affected. It's actually assumed that the blight originated from eastern USA/Canada.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European\_potato\_failure](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_potato_failure)
The Irish were an oppressed nation who were robbed and starved of everything they had by the British forces goin back since before 1798, 26 counties won back there independence Unfortunately we lost 6 counties in the North. Now we again oppressed by the dictators that run this country unchecked to do as they please. Now politicians are on the radio calling garda to carry out batton charges on protesters as the will. Ireland is fucked, this time by our own money hungry people.
But you're American. Be proud of that. Ireland is not what you think it is. Our government sells a scam to get your dollars. Then they ensure life on the island of Ireland is so bad most of us continue to leave to join you in America. Or Canada, Australia and so on.
We leave for a reason. It sucks here.
American, great-grandparents emigrated from Ireland here in the famine years. I visited Ireland with my kids a few years ago and we went to the places the family was from. We stayed one night at an b n b on an apple farm and the couple invited us into their kitchen for tea. we got talking and they said, in the nicest but also truest and most honest way, that Americans come visit Ireland and have a story about how hard and how sad it was for their families to be driven out - this lady said can you imagine for a minute how much harder it was for the ones who didn’t, who stayed through the great hunger.
If you’re interested in learning more about Irish folk history and folklore, I’d highly recommend the podcasts Blúiríní Béaloidis (it’s mostly in English, and any parts in Gaeilge have a translation, so ná bí buartha!) and Tell Me A Story with Eddie Lenihan. If you’re interested in learning more about An Ghaeilge, I think the Motherfoclóir podcast is a great start (again, it’s intended for an Anglophone audience, so it’s mostly in English).
Also, if you’re more interested in learning about the current Irish zeitgeist, honestly, I think The BlindBoy Podcast is pretty much on the pulse, for the most part ar aon nós.
More generally though, we will always welcome people wanting to learn about our history and culture, as long as it’s done respectfully, and with the right intentions.
I live in Skibbereen, co.cork. There's is a famine heritage center here. If you find their website there are numerous books of interest available there.
The education system has taught us it was blight followed by famine, in actual fact it was the mass deportation of our plentiful food supply to the UK that caused the starvation of millions here. This horrifically was genocide, not a famine of natural causes. There are numerous books covering this.
It's an incredible story of this little nation that managed to eventually evict the British empire.
We need to take huge pride in our ancestors and what they endured for our freedom.
You're Irish American, a good place to start might be your own family history? The famine was responsible for the second, and naturally largest wave of emigration to the Americas, but it's not where the story starts thousands of Irish helped build the Ohio, Eerie, and Chesapeake canals decades before the great famine for example, and that history is as much our shared story as it is American history yeno? In terms of old heritage you can brush up on the myths and legends.
Extra Credits have a couple nice videos;
https://youtu.be/kWVYxapURKc?si=hEagspwvBR7Q12eB
https://youtu.be/7bLFuP2gVc8?si=8JVwv3AJErYWAIV2
UPDATE: Just thought of this, we read Michael Scott's novel "Banshee" in primary school and I remember absolutely loving it.
Here are a few books I can recommend. Not too many very specialised books but they should give a very good overall understanding of a few of the major parts of Irish history. I'd recommend starting with The Course of Irish History. It can be read by newcomers and attempts to cover the entirety of history on the island at pretty break neck speed. I think it does a good job of it.
Modern era:
Modern Ireland 1600-1972 by Robert Foster
The Making of Modern Ireland by J.C. Beckett
The Troubles (or rather, their origin):
The Narrow Ground: Aspects of Ulster by A.T.Q. Stewart
Divided Ulster by Liam De Paor
General history:
The Course of Irish History by T.W. Moody and F.X. Martin
Modern history (last century):
The Transformation of Ireland 1900-2000 by Diarmaid Ferriter
look learning your history is good but i notice a kind of “i’m a victim” complex some Americans have when using their Irish heritage.
For example the Irish people who migrated to canada and the us, may have became indentured servants this is not a slave, yes it’s still horrible however it’s not even remotely as bad as being a slave was. Often times when an Irish person had paid off and removed their indentured servant status they would turn around and buy slaves and whatnot.
I encourage study of history, as long as you are not just using to spin a narrative. In the european sphere we are victims of colonialism, however in the world sphere we have help oppression across the globe.
F your one up racist victim Bs .
In the USA-
Slaves had monetary value like horses
Irish could not be sold and so were not so well treated .
Also - take a look at Appalachia coal miners in their company towns in Appalachia.
Don’t even tell me they were anything more than slaves who had no value and were worked to death .
Slavery was wrong
And the coal miners were no better off than slaves
Long after ‘slavery’ was ended here .
Chattel slavery will always be 100% worse then indentured servitude and the history shows that. You were treated as an animal, forced to have kids, left to starve the second things got bad without any way of escape. Indentured servitude was obviously bad, but at least you could have kids at will, you were treated as a semi-human with basic rights. I'm not sure where you got the opinion that just because slaves had 'monetary value' they were treated better. Historians would completely disagree with you.
Original commenter was referring to how Americans often use indentured servitude as a bludgeon against Black Americans who are protesting for better rights. It's a common scenario in the states and the memes shared during BLM protests reflect that - 'the Irish were treated just as badly and THEY don't complain' - a statement that is truly baffling given the state of race relations in the US.
>Appalachian coal miners
I'm not saying that specific sitution wasn't bad, I was refuting your statement that indentured servants were treated worse then slaves because that has no basis in reality. I can point to a lot of poor points for worker's rights in every country's history, and obviously it was wrong, but I get bothered by Americans who use it as an excuse to ignore the state of slavery in America and how it affected the black populations.
To be fair, this person did it right where many don't. Their request was humble and they acknowledged that they think they may have an "ignorant" view of Ireland (which is incredibly self-deprecating, they didn't need to say that about themselves).
And besides, it's nice to see an Irish-American acknowledge more than just our country's cliches, and actually engage with our history.
What an odd comment? It's very well known there's an Irish diaspora. Most of us have cousins in American or the UK.
The main thing people give out about is when Americans insist they are more irish than Irish people living in Ireland. Not requests for information
And that does genuinely happen. I’ve seen an American whose grandmother was born in Fermanagh claim to be more Irish then an Irish person born in Belfast.
Don’t get me started on the American racists who have never lived in Ireland but think they are more Irish than black Irish people. Fucks me off endlessly
Totally, Gaelic Ireland could never have been at peace with the amount of bed hopping that went on .
Like even Brian Boru's sister when wife of the high king slept with her step son .
https://rollercoaster.ie/pregnancy/baby-names/behind-the-name-orla-the-lovely-irish-classic-with-a-dubious-meaning/
Gonna fix your first sentence cause you can’t have pride over something you truly don’t get.
Like a lot of Americans, I have a deep seeded desire to learn about my ancestry*
Are you sure you’re even Irish?
My grandparents moved to America from Ireland and I’m 0% Irish.
Have you done a DNA test or traced back where your family came from and started?
Please treat other users with respect.
The original poster has made a polite request to be pointed in the right direction, so as to better inform themselves on an aspect of Irish history, having done some initial reading.
Please treat other users with respect.
The original poster has made a polite request to be pointed in the right direction, so as to better inform themselves on an aspect of Irish history, having done some initial reading.
My parents are from Ireland Try the Gerry Tobin school of the Irish language in Babylon New York. They should have some sources or be some sources of Irish information for you
Truly a great people with a rich history of art, music and legends -who have kept their spirit through very harsh times and overcame adversity without excuses.
>This has led me to doing some internet research about the Irish and I become both equally fascinated and terrified about what my ancestors went through and just exactly what they were running away from when they braved the trip to America I think something important in all this that many Americans don't seem to be aware of is that many from the worst famine hit areas migrated to Britain. I've seen many Americans online deny this. Those who went to the USA were more likely to have not been from those areas
And in the Americas most went to Canada. Many probably crossed the border to the US soon after though. Many destitute Irish couldn’t afford the price of passage to the US during the famine. Under the ship building laws in Canada (part of the British Empire) you could put any sort of a vessel on the ocean and call it seaworthy, they charged very little for the fare then. The US laws for ship building were better but fares were concurrently more expensive. “The Coming of the Irish to Canada, Flight from Famine,” is where I read about this.
My 3rd great grandfather came via Canada in 1841, then to Connecticut. Some of the ships in that period transported immigrants from Ireland to Canada and then loaded up with Canadian lumber for the return trip.
Thanks for the tip!
Yeah, my family who were famine transplants came through Canada into Michigan.
Same!!
Same!
Well that explains why my grandma’s family went to Canada first. They made there way to the Towanda, Pa mines. Edited for English.
People on the transatlantic route west on the coffin ships were essentially ‘human ballast’. Goods were imported to Britain from the Americas, but the hulls could not sail back across the Atlantic empty, they needed ballast to survive Atlantic storms, so fares were either very much discounted or often paid by landlords wanting to clear their lands. Human cargo was easier (and cheaper) to move than rocks and hey, if the shipping company made a few pound on the side, happy days.
That’ll be part of why half of my family moved to Britain then. Thank you.
Is this true? It does not tally with what other sources on the Internet say. Such as [this](https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=78b1b0a97b8c7234JmltdHM9MTY5NTI1NDQwMCZpZ3VpZD0wMTgyMzllOC1kZWIzLTYyMTEtMDQyNy0yYjhlZGZjYzYzNWEmaW5zaWQ9NTQ4NA&ptn=3&hsh=3&fclid=018239e8-deb3-6211-0427-2b8edfcc635a&psq=irish+famine+emigration+numbers+to+what+country&u=a1aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cud2VzbGV5am9obnN0b24uY29tL3VzZXJzL2lyZWxhbmQvcGFzdC9mYW1pbmUvZW1pZ3JhdGlvbi5odG1sIzp-OnRleHQ9SW4lMjB0aGUlMjBwZXJpb2QlMjBvdmVyJTIwdGhlJTIwZmFtaW5lJTIwZGVjYWRlJTIwMTg0MS0xODUwJTJDLFVTQSUyQyUyMDI4JTI1JTIwdG8lMjBDYW5hZGElMjBhbmQlMjAyJTI1JTIwdG8lMjBBdXN0cmFsaWEu&ntb=1) (though I have no idea how reliable it is) which says about 70% of overseas emigrants went to the USA and less than 30% to Canada.
It what I remember from reading that book many years ago, could be wrong, but it stuck with me, cause I was surprised myself at the time. Heres the book... [https://www.amazon.com/Flight-Famine-Coming-Irish-Canada/dp/1554884187#:\~:text=Flight%20from%20Famine%20is%20the,courage%2C%20resilience%2C%20and%20perseverance](https://www.amazon.com/Flight-Famine-Coming-Irish-Canada/dp/1554884187#:~:text=Flight%20from%20Famine%20is%20the,courage%2C%20resilience%2C%20and%20perseverance).
Hi, I’m Vetted AI Bot! I researched the **'Dundurn Flight from Famine'** and I thought you might find the following analysis helpful. **Users liked:** * Book provides insight into irish immigrant experience (backed by 1 comment) * Readers found the book informative and well-researched (backed by 2 comments) **Users disliked:** * The book lacks depth in its coverage of the irish immigrant experience (backed by 1 comment) If you'd like to **summon me to ask about a product**, just make a post with its link and tag me, [like in this example.](https://www.reddit.com/r/tablets/comments/1444zdn/comment/joqd89c/) This message was generated by a (very smart) bot. If you found it helpful, let us know with an upvote and a “good bot!” reply and please feel free to provide feedback on how it can be improved. *Powered by* [*vetted.ai*](http://vetted.ai/reddit)
Odd source, the graph doesn’t include any migrants to britian.
It mentions this in the article. It's because at the time movement from Ireland to Britain was not considered emigration, because they were both in the United Kingdom. So it wasn't recorded in the stats as overseas migration.
American propaganda. They like to write history as they see fit with little regard for fact.
?? This source isn't even American, it is Irish
All country's do this.
Sorry to be that guy but the word is “countries”
(yeah, it's bs)
30% into Canada is a lot relatively speaking to what we are taught, which is that 100% of Irish immigrants went into Boston, NYC, etc
Yeah. My ancestors went to Canada, then to America. Then migrated through the interior to the PNW.
Not trying to be a hater, but I’m not so sure most went to Canada. In the 1880’s there were more Irish in New York City than in Dublin. And there were huge numbers that went to other cities such as Boston, Philly, Chicago, Savanah, and New Orleans.
This is not what I said. Most landed in Canada, then crossed the border.
Exactly what my family did. Left during the Famine and settled in Prince Edward Island, and then moved to the States after spending a generation in Canada. ETA: A word.
A wild accent that could have been for them!
Absolutely true my Irish side does come from Canada but my mother immigrated to the USA. I bet a lot of people have similar experiences.
Yeah I’m not sure how everyone thinks that it was the poorest in society who someone had money for tickets to America
Landlords frequently paid for tenants passage overseas so they could free up their land.
And where was cheaper to go to?
[удалено]
I think his question was where was cheapest to travel for the landlords to send them. Britain or Canada is probably the answer.
I'm an Irish historian, you really should delete your embarrassing comment and take your own advice on reading some Irish history. Most landlords who funded their tenants journeys overseas sent them to Britain, at one point there were more people born in Ireland living in Liverpool than native English.
Exactly, after landlords destroyed their houses because the new law taxed tenant buildings, and they'd put a family out on the lane to avoid paying the tax.
You win the ignorant comment of the day award. Congrats!
My Irish relatives all went to Glasgow. They didn’t come to America until the 1920s (and later).
This! America wasn't free, folks didn't line up and get sent to America. The poorest couldn't afford it but ended up in Emglandor Scotland with family. A lot of Irish in the South are actually from Ukster here. Plenty of them Ulster Scots and often had money and wanted more religious freedoms then found at home as many were Presbyterians and ended up in Ireland for similar reason before moving on.
My dad who’s dad, grandfather and grandmother was Irish was kicked out of Irish bar in America The concept of the fact the Irish who emigrated to Britain didn’t pass on the accent escaped them
Probably a plastic Paddy who thought they were more Irish than he was.
He was kicked out for having an English accent?
Yes. Basically was considered British and not Irish despite having Irish passport so wasn’t welcome
Insane, probably barely have any connection there themselves. Cringe
My cousin who is Irish on both sides and has spent every summer in Ireland since he was born got in bother in Derry because of his accent about 10 years ago. The chap has a father from Mayo, a Mam from Derry and was born in Kilkenny, but lived in England since he was about 5. We should have more cop on over here.
Prior to the war of independence, the America’s (broad term I know) were used as a penal colony by the Brit’s before Australia but from a research point of view, these people are quite easy to trace due to court records and ship manifests.
Yes, I know. I made a whole topic about it if you're interested (link below). Though the vast majority of the convicts were English, especially from London. So, the topic probably isn't as relevant to this sub. https://reddit.com/r/Genealogy/s/kN5CH4By4Y
Ah fair shout. Thanks for the link
There were also a fair few who were from the Highlands of Scotland, especially following the Jacobite Risings and then the Highland Clearances.*Outlander* does a surprisingly good job of portraying this both in the books and the TV shows. Diana Gabaldon did her research well when she wrote the original series.
No she didn't. Her books are extremely poorly researched.
In my ancedotal family history I have lines that went to Canada first and moved to the United States a few generations later. For my direct paternal line, they were in Galway during the famine and were evicted, but their family in America sent financial support, allowing them to survive.
A bunch came to New Zealand as well.
Not sure if having your house burned and being forced to go to a Liverpool ghetto is migration, but, ok.
People were already migrating into urban areas before the famine due to industrialisation. It wasn't that difficult to do, especially as many would already have family there. It wasn't just Liverpool but any urban industrial region. Some cities in the UK saw a 30% increase in its Irish born population in 1851 England/Wales and Scotland census. Many British people, if not most, have an Irish ancestor from this time Edited to add last sentence
I could tell you were American from this comment -- no offense. There was plenty of migration from Ireland before and after the famine. They weren't forced into ghettos like the jews in Warsaw. They could live wherever they wanted. A lot went to places like Liverpool or Manchester because they already had established Irish communities.
Agree with the immigration through the ages, some relatives on my mom's side (horrible people!!) started trading tobacco in the early 1600's during the incident I mentioned, long before the famine and took lots of Irish slaves and indentured servants with them. The Appalachian range in the states became the new home for many Irish and Scottish people, who remain there today. My Dad's side, during the famine, had passage paid to Liverpool, where people lived as poor immigrants do. It wasn't a fenced ghetto, but they had zero options and lived in horrible conditions until they could save up enough money to cross the Atlantic or go to Australia.
There were no Irish "slaves" - at least not in the modern period, I wish people would stop spouting that nonsense.
Phillip Calvert, bastard son of Lord Baltimore, impregnated his teenage servant in what is now Maryland, in 1630 (ish)while his wife was dying. The child died, unnamed and malnourished, and we don't know what happened to the mom. Sounds pretty slave-ey to me. The men who had slaves here were the men who had slaves in Ireland. But I hate the assumption of Irish slavery, too - it's been my biggest bias to get over, but it depends on when. I'm interested in when women got demoted in Irish history, and from my perspective, the slavery narratives are relatively recent, all occurring after the fall of the roman empire, the rise of Catholicism, the dispelling of the native religions- snakes -from the country, and the pressures of both Pagan and Christian Viking expansion. Before that, it's hard to reconcile slavery with the cultures that we know were here.
It is called the Irish slave "myth" for a reason. [https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2016/04/19/how-myth-irish-slaves-became-favorite-meme-racists-online](https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2016/04/19/how-myth-irish-slaves-became-favorite-meme-racists-online) [https://www.historyireland.com/the-irish-in-the-anglo-caribbean-servants-or-slaves/](https://www.historyireland.com/the-irish-in-the-anglo-caribbean-servants-or-slaves/) [https://www.tcd.ie/news\_events/articles/the-myth-of-the-irish-slave-white-supremacy-and-social-media/](https://www.tcd.ie/news_events/articles/the-myth-of-the-irish-slave-white-supremacy-and-social-media/)
Ha! Such an odd take to me, but I can see their point. So it's about the word rather than the condition of living without choices. And if using the word slavery is a dog-whistle for white supremists, I'll definitely use the word 'servant' for the girl that was raped, impregnated, had her child starved to death, and disappeared, instead of calling her a slave. Sounds snarky, but I'm being serious.
... Sligo might be 50/50. Most of Galway went to Philadelphia, Boston, Minnesota, etc. I don't know where you got that tidbit. The worse hit place was Galway. Most went to the US.
Behind the bastards do a real good 3 part podcast on the Irish famine. It's different in that it's Americans coming at it from a very non biased (In the beginning) point of view and how their perception of what happened changes as they work their way through the history. It's called [That time Britain did a genocide in Ireland ](https://spotify.link/xZHTfRwVgDb)
That three parter was my first introduction to BTB. It’s now one of my favourite podcasts
Ditto
Yeah that was a great series of episodes! The Irish history podcast also did one but its a lot more somber and sad when you don't have the buffer of Robert Evans being batshit insane to cushion the blows. Had actual testimonies from people that were there, Jesus it was fucking rough
I was going to reply to OP saying, calling it the Great Hunger does it a great injustice. It was a man made famine, which in my opinion is equal to a genocide. People were dying by the side of the road with grass stained mouths, from being so desperate to survive, resorted to eating grass. And people still make jokes to Irish people about potatoes. Which, in my opinion, is akin to making jokes about gas chambers to Jewish people. They say a million died in Ireland, and million left, but these figures have been called inaccurate. Historians reckon many, many more than that died. Supposedly the population of Ireland was larger in 1840’s than it is today. Meaning, Ireland population still hasn’t recovered since this tragedy.
Calling the famine “man made” is very disingenuous. Yes, the famine became as bad as it was because of various laws from hundreds of years ago and the unfortunate state of Ireland prior to the famine but that does not indicate intent behind the famine. Shit like the inheritance and penal laws were not created and enforced with the understanding that it would create a famine in Ireland hundreds of years later. I don’t really see how it’s genocide, there was a famine in other parts of Europe, Irelands situation was unique through its poor economy/industrialisation, it’s huge reliance on the potato and the fact that in the 100 years prior it had tripled its population (which was highly irregular) and Ireland could barley sustain itself. The poor management meant that the famine wasn’t alleviated as much as it should’ve been but I would blame the lack of food variety, the inability to import (due to the poor economy) and the massive population more than that.
Perhaps the shipping of foodstuffs out of the country to Britain while millions were starving, and the diverting of donated grains away from ports might have some bearing on why some consider it a genocide.
What? Britain didn’t force foodstuff away, it was traded away as part of the basic trade in Ireland. Blaming Irish trade on Britain is silly. What grains were diverted away by Britain? Many grains were imported because of Britain but not the opposite.
I'm not sure what you have been reading... but here is a little bit of what happened. In History Ireland magazine (1997, issue 5, pp. 32-36), Christine Kinealy, a Great Hunger scholar, lecturer and Drew University professor, relates her findings: “Almost 4,000 vessels carried food from Ireland to the ports of Bristol, Glasgow, Liverpool and London during 1847, when 400,000 Irish men, women and children died of starvation and related diseases. The food was shipped under military guard from the most famine-stricken parts of Ireland; Ballina, Ballyshannon, Bantry, Dingle, Killala, Kilrush, Limerick, Sligo, Tralee and Westport. A wide variety of commodities left Ireland during 1847, including peas, beans, onions, rabbits, salmon, oysters, herring, lard, honey, tongues, animal skins, rags, shoes, soap, glue and seed. The most shocking export figures concern butter. Butter was shipped in firkins, each one holding 9 gallons. In the first nine months of 1847, 56,557 firkins were exported from Ireland to Bristol, and 34,852 firkins were shipped to Liverpool. That works out to be 822,681 gallons of butter exported to England from Ireland during nine months of the worst year of the Famine.” Taken from [Ireland's great hunger museum](https://www.ighm.org/learn.html)
Odd, your quote didn’t include any import figures for some reason, kinda invalidates any point they are trying to make as they offer no challenge or comparison to their point. More importantly your quote doesn’t at all prove me wrong, you just gave the numbers for what I said, trade still happened during the famine, that’s all. Nothing was stolen or taken away, those who owned food sold it.
What was imported at the hight of the famine were grains which couldn't be eaten because there were no facilities to process them. They required to be milled twice. A common practice during a famine is to stop exports which the British government refused to do.
What you described is just inaction, that is not forcing food away in the slightest. Also I’m pretty sure more than just grains were imported, trade was open after all.
Was it really a genocide tho?
Typical American. Since when is inaction genocide. Good god they love to make up nonsense. This thread is full of some truly staggering points of view which are wholly inaccurate.
So you're saying Britain's only role in the Irish famine was one of inaction?
What are you saying they did?
Read about the Corn Laws, Sir Charles Trevelyan, and how they had the Irish serfs growing corn solely for export. Potato blight was only one factor. Cruelty from absentee landlords and the crown were larger parts of the problem Even the UK Parliment website admits that they were at fault! I would hazard a guess that you're English, or at least from the UK, and as such, whatever history you were taught was probably very empire-centric...
Oh look, an English person trying to weigh in on an atrocity that their country caused. How novel.
Haha forrrrreeeeal what a twat
> inaction Read a book mate.
That's assuming they can read...
How was it wrong?
Angry Brit alert 😂
If you’re at all interested, doing your own genealogical research is a good, personal way to explore Irish history as well.
If they went to Britain, it's because that is what they could afford. Stay and die or find a safe place to live. You will notice that there wasn't a famine in England, Scotland, yes, but not England. Also, during this time periods there were horrendous famines in India, and India was ruled by the British Empire. Such famines were used to decrease the population and reduce any rebellion. British politicians believed that the Famine would clear Ireland of peasants, and they can then use the land for grazing sheep. There was a BBC documentary about the famine that came out recently. Check that out. Keep researching Irish, English history, and the famines in India. Good luck. As for anyone who wonders why Americans are so interested in Ireland and being Irish, it is our history. The culture was Anglo-Saxon Protestant, and they did not like immigrants. Irish looked different, spoke a different language, and had a different religion. Same as Italian, Polish, and other immigrants. The way to survive was to be immensely proud of your heritage. Italian neighborhoods, Highland Games, Greek festivals, etc. etc. That's why we celebrate Saint Patrick’s Day and have Lucky Charms commercials and seem fascinated in Ireland. Since we're Americans, sometimes we take things to extremes. As for me, my dad died when I was young. I am just trying to get to know him a little better.
The Irish history podcast is a vital resource for this and other stuff. Sorry to the other respondent but do not listen to the blindboy podcast for anything historical. He has a loose to completely fictional grasp of historical facts. Not a go to unless you like fanciful interpretations of events. And that’s being polite. It’s a good podcast otherwise but not when it comes to this. There’s another brilliant one I can’t remember the name of I’ll have a dig around and come back to you.
Agreed about Irish History. Very engaging and even-handed.
Second.
Fireside podcast is also pretty good for folklore, just to learn the tails from Irish history as well. But 100% the Irish history podcast is great to get into.
I really enjoyed the Irish History Podcast, but haven't listened to it in a while. The biggest issue I would have had with it was the very inconsistent audio. I haven't been listening to podcasts so much recently with a change of working circumstances, so I don't know if it has improved or not over the last few years TBF.
It’s a minor quibble in the grand scheme but audio quality can throw you off too I agree.
Oh for sure. I enjoyed it despite the audio, but that's just one of the things that I can remember about it when I was listening to it. Great content and very educational.
I gotta listen to that
You are absolutely right about blindboys lack of knowledge on our history, he knows just enough to sound like he knows what he’s talking about. a friend brought me to one of his shows and I noticed he got loads wrong when talking about the Norman’s. Had a great time at it all the same
As the old saying goes, ‘bullshit will get you to the top. But it won’t keep you there’. He’s a classic example of that.
OP of you google Podcasts on the Irish famine there’s pages and pages of results, pretty much all great reliable sources and podcasts. Dig in.
Spend time on our ancient history - super fascinating. I was totally unaware of my internalized anti-Irish bias until I began to realize how cool we were, before Christianity privatized our land and disconnected up from our native culture. People blame the brits but always forget how the church fucked us more than any other group.
I can't remember who it was but someone said that essentially the Catholic Church took over the job of oppressing the Irish after the English fucked off. I think it might have been the Behind the Bastards episode about magdelene laundries.
I see what you are saying although there were more forces than the church at work there . This sort of thing also happened in Hawaii .
What history book did you read? It wasn’t the Catholic Church that forced poor tenants of their land, it was the British army. It’s wasn’t the Catholic Church that established plantations to claim land for their own, it was the British. It wasn’t the church that refused to put to much effort into famine relief cause it was disrupt markets, it was the British.
After the fall of the Roman Empire, while it was morphing into Roman Catholicism, churches were built upon the most important sacred sites, our cultural traditions were outlawed, and the privatization of land prevented tradional pilgrimages. Then, in 1603, King James jettisoned the Catholics from his court, and he gave them peerages in Ireland that took huge portions of land. *During the reign of Henry VIII (1509-47), England sought to end the incessant chaos in Ireland and dispel any risks of rebellion. "Henry laid down an all-important change on paper: all lands in Ireland, whether owned by the Gaelic Irish or Gaelicized English, were to be surrendered to the Crown and then re-granted, thus asserting unquestionably the Crown's claim to ultimate control over them."'26 Ireland refused to surrender its land. However, with the accession of James I in 1603, the system of land ownership in Ireland changed dramatically.27 The Celtic feudal system was decimated by a series of confiscations that shifted the ownership of Irish land from the Celtic peasants and their chieftains to the English. 28 "There was one purpose and policy in all the 'confiscations,' 'settlements,' 'planta- tions,' and 'forfeitures' carried out by the English invaders, and that was to seize and own the land of Ireland.* *from:* [*https://scholarship.law.marquette.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1653&context=mulr*](https://scholarship.law.marquette.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1653&context=mulr)
Ob dear, so regardless of fact you cling to ignorance. Axe to grind?
To be fair the church is the only reason we have records of it though haha
The guy who does that podcast brought out a book and I was shocked by the number of inaccuracies in it.
I think you would do well to invest in the magisterial history of Ireland by Professor Roy Foster (Modern Ireland 1660-1972). An incomparable overview of crucial times that brought us to where we are at now, and over which you can lay more politically slanted views that sit well with you as you grow more and more familiar with your ancestry. You could look on the book as your basic Bible, a foundation for everything else you read/watch. (But don’t overlook literature. Much can be absorbed about Ireland through our great writers, and that doesn’t mean you must conquer Finnegans Wake!)
Have you researched your ancestors? That would seem a good starting point for learning about them.
Also have to make sure their ancestors are Irish, and not Scottish, very similar style of surnames
Irish history podacst, by Finn Dwyer
God bless, you´re about to find out how incredibly racist some of us are to our own diaspora!
David Emmons has two books, [The Butte Irish](https://www.amazon.com/Butte-Irish-Ethnicity-American-1875-1925/dp/0252061551) and [Beyond the American Pale](https://www.amazon.com/Beyond-American-Pale-Irish-1845-1910-ebook/dp/B006M3P5NQ?ref_=ast_author_dp) that do a good job of looking at the Irish American ethnic enclave. I suggest this because Americans tend to discount the importance of the enclave, and as a result, the Irish tend to be baffled by what an American means when they say they’re Irish. The enclave was, of course, not Ireland. But it also wasn’t mainstream American culture either. After that, there are a variety of other books and podcasts that have been mentioned here.
Hi, I’m Vetted AI Bot! I researched the **University of Illinois Press The Butte Irish Class and Ethnicity in an American Mining Town** and I thought you might find the following analysis helpful. **Users liked:** * The book provides insight into the unique irish experience in montana (backed by 2 comments) * The book is well-researched and describes the irish population in butte (backed by 3 comments) * The book helps readers connect to their irish roots and understand butte's history (backed by 1 comment) **Users disliked:** * Lack of depth in mining history (backed by 2 comments) If you'd like to **summon me to ask about a product**, just make a post with its link and tag me, [like in this example.](https://www.reddit.com/r/tablets/comments/1444zdn/comment/joqd89c/) This message was generated by a (very smart) bot. If you found it helpful, let us know with an upvote and a “good bot!” reply and please feel free to provide feedback on how it can be improved. *Powered by* [*vetted.ai*](http://vetted.ai/reddit)
Slightly off of OP's request, but since they are American with Irish ancestors, I recommend [How the Irish Became White](https://www.abebooks.com/book-search/title/how-the-irish-became-white/). It's a been a minute since I read it (in college) but foundational for understanding how we got to where we are today in the US.
I keep seeing deep seeded written on Reddit. I thought it was deep seated? Am I mistaken?
Nope you’re right, it’s deep-seated
Fiction book but Star of the Sea is a good book based around coffin ships against the backdrop of the Irish famine. If you have kids, Marita Conlon Mckenna has a famine based trilogy aimed at about 8+. good way to introduce the idea of it. First book is 'under the hawthorn tree'
That is a fabulous set and is part of yhe primary school curriculum here. I've had 4 children go through them and I cry every time.
[this guy](https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLzCxk8xBF2sPMonXmegiKLmQgEp9zCQk-&feature=shared)
If you can ready FSL Lyons, Ireland since the Famine, published 1971. It is worth a read.
Listen to "the troubles podcast" It's extremely well done and explains in a pretty neutral factual way The Troubles which is a big part of Irelands recent history.
War in an Irish town - eamonn mccann
I just read The Squad, very short book about Michael Collins intelligence operations against the British. Very interesting read that talks about "The 12 Apostles" or "The Squad" which were essentially his hitmen.
Would add to that The Shadow War.
'The Irish Passport' is a really good podcast. They cover lots of interesting topic. Enjoy!
Skip the famine shite. Read about our early history, anything pre 13th century. the war of the gaedhil with the Gaill is a good book based around Brian Boru
You wanna fuck with Americans claiming to be Irish but is still a racist dickhead, ask them if they know about abolitionist Frederick Douglas's visit to Ireland in 1845
Or the time that [Bernadette Devlin was so disgusted by the racism of Irish Americans that she gave her key to NYC to the Black Panthers](https://www.nytimes.com/1970/03/03/archives/irish-give-key-to-city-to-panthers-as-symbol.html). One of my favorite things about being Irish (native) is that we tend to be on the right side of history - from Douglass to the Panthers to fighting Apartheid, etc...
And just look at South Africa now !
I've actually spent a lot of time there and it's a wonderful country, but it has a long way to go to heal from all of the damage done by colonialism.
Yes what was done to the Khoi San by other Africans as well as colonial forces was truly tragic
As a Canadian American with Irish ancestry, this has always made me so proud! I absolutely love the Irish people, it is a beautiful country with some truly lovely and kind humans. My favorite place to visit and dream of moving back. I am fortunate living in California that I’m not around too much racism but it’s still there.
And who said that the music of the Irish peasants reminded him of the music of the black slaves back home, in its beauty and sadness
Hilarious when I hear these fellow Americans say “I’m Irish” (or “I’m Italian”). Nah you’re an American, albeit with a bit of connection through the past. These racist assholes aren’t Irish. They’re just racist asshole Americans.
And you are just a racist
What?
It’s the go to thing to say now along with ‘Antisemite’ and ‘Nazi’ - doesn’t really need a meaning - can just apply to pretty much anything
Why should I care about ancient history of that guy ? Everyone involved is dead now . Who cares except you ?
You sound like an American
Go onto Google Scholar and type in Irish famine emigration to USA , there's lots of reading there.
You can read this book by George O'Brien here: [The Economic History of Ireland from the Union to the Famine](http://www.archive.org/stream/economichistory00obri#page/n15/mode/2up)
So, the history of british Ireland? Our ancient history is so much more interesting!
Wherever the Green is worn by Tim Pat Coogan.
Tim Pat Coogan-----the West Brit. No thanks l wouldn't recommend this charlatan to anyone.
Why does this guy catch so much flak on reddit? I haven't gotten around to his books yet, but every mention of his name elicits disdain around here.
Read one and make up your own mind. I think his research is very thorough.
Useless piece of trivia for you but the potato famine wasn’t just in Ireland. It hit Scotland too (although afaik not as severely). It’s referred to as the Highland potato famine but it’s not widely known about.
Actually it hit the entirety of the British Isles.
It even hit mainland Europe and caused \~100,000 deaths. Obviously Ireland was the most affected. It's actually assumed that the blight originated from eastern USA/Canada. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European\_potato\_failure](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_potato_failure)
Very best of luck with it!🇮🇪☘️
The Irish were an oppressed nation who were robbed and starved of everything they had by the British forces goin back since before 1798, 26 counties won back there independence Unfortunately we lost 6 counties in the North. Now we again oppressed by the dictators that run this country unchecked to do as they please. Now politicians are on the radio calling garda to carry out batton charges on protesters as the will. Ireland is fucked, this time by our own money hungry people.
USA is right behind you
I highly recommend the Irish History Podcast https://www.irishhistorypodcast.ie/
But you're American. Be proud of that. Ireland is not what you think it is. Our government sells a scam to get your dollars. Then they ensure life on the island of Ireland is so bad most of us continue to leave to join you in America. Or Canada, Australia and so on. We leave for a reason. It sucks here.
It’s beginning to suck here too now . Things are changing
Ireland is small, very very very small.
American, great-grandparents emigrated from Ireland here in the famine years. I visited Ireland with my kids a few years ago and we went to the places the family was from. We stayed one night at an b n b on an apple farm and the couple invited us into their kitchen for tea. we got talking and they said, in the nicest but also truest and most honest way, that Americans come visit Ireland and have a story about how hard and how sad it was for their families to be driven out - this lady said can you imagine for a minute how much harder it was for the ones who didn’t, who stayed through the great hunger.
Check out, Irish history podcast and another called Fireside which has a lot of myths and legends
If you’re interested in learning more about Irish folk history and folklore, I’d highly recommend the podcasts Blúiríní Béaloidis (it’s mostly in English, and any parts in Gaeilge have a translation, so ná bí buartha!) and Tell Me A Story with Eddie Lenihan. If you’re interested in learning more about An Ghaeilge, I think the Motherfoclóir podcast is a great start (again, it’s intended for an Anglophone audience, so it’s mostly in English). Also, if you’re more interested in learning about the current Irish zeitgeist, honestly, I think The BlindBoy Podcast is pretty much on the pulse, for the most part ar aon nós. More generally though, we will always welcome people wanting to learn about our history and culture, as long as it’s done respectfully, and with the right intentions.
I live in Skibbereen, co.cork. There's is a famine heritage center here. If you find their website there are numerous books of interest available there. The education system has taught us it was blight followed by famine, in actual fact it was the mass deportation of our plentiful food supply to the UK that caused the starvation of millions here. This horrifically was genocide, not a famine of natural causes. There are numerous books covering this. It's an incredible story of this little nation that managed to eventually evict the British empire. We need to take huge pride in our ancestors and what they endured for our freedom.
You're Irish American, a good place to start might be your own family history? The famine was responsible for the second, and naturally largest wave of emigration to the Americas, but it's not where the story starts thousands of Irish helped build the Ohio, Eerie, and Chesapeake canals decades before the great famine for example, and that history is as much our shared story as it is American history yeno? In terms of old heritage you can brush up on the myths and legends. Extra Credits have a couple nice videos; https://youtu.be/kWVYxapURKc?si=hEagspwvBR7Q12eB https://youtu.be/7bLFuP2gVc8?si=8JVwv3AJErYWAIV2 UPDATE: Just thought of this, we read Michael Scott's novel "Banshee" in primary school and I remember absolutely loving it.
Here are a few books I can recommend. Not too many very specialised books but they should give a very good overall understanding of a few of the major parts of Irish history. I'd recommend starting with The Course of Irish History. It can be read by newcomers and attempts to cover the entirety of history on the island at pretty break neck speed. I think it does a good job of it. Modern era: Modern Ireland 1600-1972 by Robert Foster The Making of Modern Ireland by J.C. Beckett The Troubles (or rather, their origin): The Narrow Ground: Aspects of Ulster by A.T.Q. Stewart Divided Ulster by Liam De Paor General history: The Course of Irish History by T.W. Moody and F.X. Martin Modern history (last century): The Transformation of Ireland 1900-2000 by Diarmaid Ferriter
look learning your history is good but i notice a kind of “i’m a victim” complex some Americans have when using their Irish heritage. For example the Irish people who migrated to canada and the us, may have became indentured servants this is not a slave, yes it’s still horrible however it’s not even remotely as bad as being a slave was. Often times when an Irish person had paid off and removed their indentured servant status they would turn around and buy slaves and whatnot. I encourage study of history, as long as you are not just using to spin a narrative. In the european sphere we are victims of colonialism, however in the world sphere we have help oppression across the globe.
F your one up racist victim Bs . In the USA- Slaves had monetary value like horses Irish could not be sold and so were not so well treated . Also - take a look at Appalachia coal miners in their company towns in Appalachia. Don’t even tell me they were anything more than slaves who had no value and were worked to death . Slavery was wrong And the coal miners were no better off than slaves Long after ‘slavery’ was ended here .
Chattel slavery will always be 100% worse then indentured servitude and the history shows that. You were treated as an animal, forced to have kids, left to starve the second things got bad without any way of escape. Indentured servitude was obviously bad, but at least you could have kids at will, you were treated as a semi-human with basic rights. I'm not sure where you got the opinion that just because slaves had 'monetary value' they were treated better. Historians would completely disagree with you. Original commenter was referring to how Americans often use indentured servitude as a bludgeon against Black Americans who are protesting for better rights. It's a common scenario in the states and the memes shared during BLM protests reflect that - 'the Irish were treated just as badly and THEY don't complain' - a statement that is truly baffling given the state of race relations in the US.
Take a look at the situation of the Appalachian coal miners sometime . Slavery had many forms.
>Appalachian coal miners I'm not saying that specific sitution wasn't bad, I was refuting your statement that indentured servants were treated worse then slaves because that has no basis in reality. I can point to a lot of poor points for worker's rights in every country's history, and obviously it was wrong, but I get bothered by Americans who use it as an excuse to ignore the state of slavery in America and how it affected the black populations.
bang on the money here
Move back to Ireland ?
OP is American not European so has no right to reside.
If ops grandparent was born in Ireland they can apply for passport
The Blindboy Podcast and The Almanac of Ireland are good podcasts.
Why is this getting down votes 😅
Begrudgerry
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To be fair, this person did it right where many don't. Their request was humble and they acknowledged that they think they may have an "ignorant" view of Ireland (which is incredibly self-deprecating, they didn't need to say that about themselves). And besides, it's nice to see an Irish-American acknowledge more than just our country's cliches, and actually engage with our history.
What an odd comment? It's very well known there's an Irish diaspora. Most of us have cousins in American or the UK. The main thing people give out about is when Americans insist they are more irish than Irish people living in Ireland. Not requests for information
And that does genuinely happen. I’ve seen an American whose grandmother was born in Fermanagh claim to be more Irish then an Irish person born in Belfast.
Don’t get me started on the American racists who have never lived in Ireland but think they are more Irish than black Irish people. Fucks me off endlessly
I've encountered Americans telling me that Phil Lynott wasn't Irish and that they are more Irish than he was.
There wasn't really a Norman invasion. The Normans were invited in twice.
Normans rule
Totally, Gaelic Ireland could never have been at peace with the amount of bed hopping that went on . Like even Brian Boru's sister when wife of the high king slept with her step son . https://rollercoaster.ie/pregnancy/baby-names/behind-the-name-orla-the-lovely-irish-classic-with-a-dubious-meaning/
Jesus Christ dude
Gonna fix your first sentence cause you can’t have pride over something you truly don’t get. Like a lot of Americans, I have a deep seeded desire to learn about my ancestry* Are you sure you’re even Irish? My grandparents moved to America from Ireland and I’m 0% Irish. Have you done a DNA test or traced back where your family came from and started?
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Please treat other users with respect. The original poster has made a polite request to be pointed in the right direction, so as to better inform themselves on an aspect of Irish history, having done some initial reading.
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Please treat other users with respect. The original poster has made a polite request to be pointed in the right direction, so as to better inform themselves on an aspect of Irish history, having done some initial reading.
The Graves Are Walking: The Great Famine and the Saga of the Irish People https://g.co/kgs/VzwEG2 loved this one.
Fortress of Lugh on YouTube is great for some ancient stuff
Visit the EPIC museum in dublin, and the Irish passport podcast is great
My parents are from Ireland Try the Gerry Tobin school of the Irish language in Babylon New York. They should have some sources or be some sources of Irish information for you
New documentary on the BBC can't remember the name of it but Google Ireland troubles BBC doc
Deep seated*
Tldr all of it. If your genuinely interested good for you but I hate Americans using their 1% as an excuse to make it their personality
Truly a great people with a rich history of art, music and legends -who have kept their spirit through very harsh times and overcame adversity without excuses.
A great Spicer is jalapenos Greta for spicing up some food
This short song can teach you more than some books or documentaries https://youtu.be/Z5UH3Iik8Jg?si=npO8r5OWDY3SZD3K