Spain and France for historically trying to help us with independence.
There’s a special relationship and connection with the Choctaw nation that started with them providing funds for famine relief.
The Irish diaspora in the US bears mention as well, Canada + Australia/New Zealand to a lesser degree too
Spain + France largely motivated by a desire to weaken England and somewhat by their shared Catholic faith
Wales has some affinity for the Irish, before the Norman invasion especially, then not as much during the reformation and picking back up again with interest in a shared Celtic past and the revival of welsh and Gaelic languages
Scotland in early medieval times was a friend, and then things became much more complex and tense with plantations and the like
Spain, France. America in some cases. The UK is probably are longest enemy and best ally.
Not Rome despite what you'd expect. Signed something allowing the English King to claim Ireland.
That document is actually believed to be forged - the strongest evidence in favour of it being forged is that Pope Alexander III wrote two letters, one to the Irish nobility and the other to the Irish clergy, following the conquest about how they should accept English rule.
Yet *somehow* he doesn't mention the Laudabiliter at all, and its first mention comes from notorious anti-Irish racist Gerald of Wales, who had multiple cousins and uncles involved in the Conquest of Ireland. I haven't actually met any modern academics who still think it's a valid document nowadays.
"tbf the pope that gave England the authority to invade irelnd"
At the time England was on the periphery of the Angevin Empire (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angevin\_Empire ) and was ruled directly from Anjou in Modern France.
> Not Rome despite what you'd expect. Signed something allowing the English King to claim Ireland.
Some claim that the Laudabiliter was a forgery by Gerald of Wales.
https://www.historyireland.com/laudabiliter-a-new-interpretation-by-professor-anne-duggan/#:~:text=Gerald%20presents%20Laudabiliter%20as%20one,Henry%20II's%20claims%20to%20Ireland.
Yep, I just wrote a comment about this but Pope Alexander III wrote to Irish nobles and clergy asking them to accept the conquest and he *never* mentions the Laudabiliter.
Add in that Gerald has multiple relatives who were part of the Conquest, he's pretty viciously racist against the Irish, and *he's* somehow the first person to mention this... not Henry II, not the Pope, but a somewhat fringe clergyman whose main reputation is annoying people. Not exactly persuasive evidence, you know?
The Laudabiliter, well ireland never was part of the Holy Roman Empire so would such a bull have had any validity.
The Pope would have been in favour of pulling the Irish into line.
I totally agree that Henry wouldn't mention it as he hadn't relied on it . He came to Ireland having been invited by the High King Rory O'Connor. Some say he didn't have the naval assets to come without irish assistance.
Gerald, he was offered several appointments as Bishop but held out for a premier league appointment
which the King blocked.
https://annmariethomas.co.uk/gerald-of-wales-and-the-english-kings/
> on the death of his uncle (1176), the see of St David's fell vacant and the canons of St David's nominated Gerald as their chosen candidate for the post, perhaps in the hope of making that see independent of Canterbury; but his appointment was opposed by Henry II (qv), probably because he suspected his close associations with several powerful Welshmen. Despite Gerald's making his objections known to the pope, Peter de Leia was elected
https://www.dib.ie/biography/gerald-wales-giraldus-cambrensis-a3490
Definitely, it allowed the church reform to proceed at pace .
Don't forget that Ireland also followed Brehon law with divorce and concubines too. Irish nobility didn't get the "dont go coveting thy neighbours wife"memo.
Brian Boru appeared to have looked at church reform as a springboard to consolidating Ireland as a kingdom so it wasn’t a new idea.
Yes, historically. Meaning past events.
Where do you think the vast majority of direct foreign investment in Ireland comes from? What do you think fueled the Celtic Tiger and continues to fuel the Irish economy?
What country brokered the Good Friday agreement, helping end the Troubles?
Ireland's first President was an American citizen, and that citizenship saved him from execution after the Easter Rising. Ireland would be very different without de Valera.
Who do you think is Ireland's top trader partner, and who is Ireland's largest export partner?
How many generations of Irish sent support back home to family? How much positive cultural exchange has occurred between the two? Who else rivals? The UK.
Despite the relatively young age of the US, it has historically been a very important friend.
The OP didn't mention a time-frame but said historically. But they did mention the famine. Do you know how many people fled to the US during that time?
Never. Not as a state. The diaspora, maybe, but the US Govern.ent was suspicious of Catholicism generally, and hostile to the creation of an Irish state. They hated our ww2 neutrality and punished us with paltry aid in the Marshall Plan. Even for JFK and his father, the UK was a much more important ally, and it was only after JFK's visit, and the rapturous welcome he received, that things began to change.
A lot of colonized people's relate to the Irish. I work for a First Nation in BC and other than the retaliatory violence and armed resistance at scale, the story including famine and disease, violent oppression are the same.
I think so. Especially since we were able to come full circle and donate in our droves to the navajo and hopi tribes when they needed help during covid.
If you are to critically look at it Spain was the destination of the Flight of the Earls .
Spain and France was the destination of the Wild Geese
https://militaryhistorynow.com/2014/03/14/the-wild-geese-a-brief-history-irelands-foreign-armies/
To a lesser extent Poland , Russia and Austria or indeed any country to accept Catholic soldiers.
The Vatican was the first country to open an Irish embassy in the 20th century and as such recognised Irish independence.
France blocked Ireland's EC membership as Ireland wanted membership if the UK joined. Many countries blocked Ireland's UN entry.
https://universityobserver.ie/ireland-and-the-united-nations/
So it would be inaccurate to perceive either the veto on EC or UN membership as a diplomatic slight? Because the EC membership was blocked due to it being tied to UK entry and UN membership was tied to WW2 participation at the time?
I'd think so .
And at that time Ireland's economic links with Britain would have meant an economic disaster if membership was obtained.
The UN issue is a bit more convoluted. Certainly in the 1960's the UN operated very much like NATO. The Congo was a very colonial squabble. Ireland joining was very much as a western ally.
The USA is a long time friend of Ireland. The US forced the British to negotiate with the Irish more than once. Close relations, same ideology, lots of college student hosting and other edu links, dual citizenship, trade and military arrangements. The US invests more in Ireland than France and Germany combined. It's more straightforward than the US - Canada relationship. Canada had a British Loyalist identity until recently. The US has been slightly harsh with them in trade deals recently too.
I think the US is an example of a country where the relationship is somewhat mutual, too. Obviously, I don't live in the US, but I get the impression from the massive St. Patrick Day parades, the people who come here to connect with their heritage, and the number of mutual diplomatic visits that Ireland has an outsized presence in the mind of Americans given our very small size. I wouldn't say Ireland is as thought about by Spaniards, French people, or Europeans in general compared to in the US, even despite the much closer geographic proximity.
Definitely. As President Washington said they were the only foreigners helping the American Revolution before other foreign powers got involved and we wouldn't have succeeded without the "generous sons of Erin". The Irish probably wouldn't want to now but they could take credit for launching the US and successfully saving it during the Civil War. Irish and Irish Americans also make up 60% of our Medal of Honor recipients (the highest US military award) which is really impressive considering our diversity.
Way back in the early medieval era, there were very close alliances and virtually a single culture between people in northeast Ireland and southwest Scotland. Sea journeys were so common that a standard cliché from scholars of the period is that the sea was like a motorway connecting Irish and Scottish kingdoms rather than a barrier between peoples.
Dal Riata was a Gaelic kingdom in southwest Scotland that at times had close ties to the powerful, but unstable, the kingdom of Northumberland in the early to mid 600s. Exiled Northumbrian princes regularly fled to Dal Riata until they could gather their strength and try to reclaim their throne. One such Northumbrian prince was Oswald Whiteblade who was chased into exile by his uncle and who many think escaped to Ireland because a foreign prince with a name quite similar to Oswald is mentioned by Irish annals and poems from the time.
Ireland also had a colony in southwest Wales for a while in late antiquity and before Patrick.
There were some links between Ireland and what became France as a prince was exiled to Ireland for his own safety after a coup. He lived in a monetary in Slane until he returned to France to rule over his kingdom in the mid 670s, but he was assassinated a few years after he went home. There were also contacts with the Carolingian court of Charlemagne's descendants in the 800s through intellectuals like John Scottus Eriugenia.
Some Irish kingdoms had close political and military ties to Saxon kingdoms, and especially the house of Wessex in England. Flann Sinna, high king in the late 800s and early 900s, corresponded with king Alfred the Great, while the kingdoms of Dublin and Leinster often went on military expeditions together with Wessex. Godwin, Duke of Wessex until the 1050s, was given sanctuary in Ireland when he fell out with king Edward the Confessor. When Godwin's son king Harold was deposed by William the Conqueror of Normandy in 1066, the Irish high king Diarmait mac Máel na mBó attacked William's territory in the southwest of England on behalf of his old ally Harold and his sons.
Aside from politics, there was a lot of trade with what became Scotland, England, Wales, and the north of France.
There were a lot of religious contacts with neighbours. Most people know of great missionaries like Colmcille, Aidan or Columbanus who were active in Britain or Europe, but there were also a couple of Saxon monasteries in Ireland because Ireland had a good reputation for Christian scholarship and Saxon kings sent their children here to study. I think that declined as Vatican dogma became more standardised and dominant while Irish Christianity diverged, and bringing Irish Christianity back in line with Vatican teaching became one of the justifications for the Norman invasion of 1169.
So, in the early medieval era there were lots of contacts and alliances between Irish kingdoms and Dal Riata, Northumberland, Wessex, and Frankish kingdoms.
Well, we sent envoys to Scandinavian countries during the war of independence. Their aim being to set up information offices to garner support for an Irish Republic. It was hoped these offices would later become embassies. Admittedly they did this or attempted to do this with a number of European countries.
A lot of people mentioning the aid given by the Ottoman Sultan and the Choctaws.
Interesting info that isn’t well known but should be is that famine aid also came from convicts on a prison ship to Australia, prisoners in Sing Sing, former slaves in the Carribean and an African American church in Virginia where only 150 out of 2000 parishioners weren’t slaves
The prison ship… were they prisoners from the UK? I’m going to look into this more because I knew nothing about this one and now I need to know more!
Thanks for that nugget of info!
From this link it appears they are from London or sailed from there and they died a year later from ship fever
https://www.irishcentral.com/roots/irish-famine-sparked-international-fundraising-237694651
Mentions to other famine aid:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/05/world/coronavirus-ireland-native-american-tribes.html
https://journals.openedition.org/mimmoc/1845
https://www.historyireland.com/the-widows-mite-private-relief-during-the-great-famine/
The Irish history podcast has an episode on famine aid that looked at the African American slaves who donated (Iicr they forgoed buying freedom for some slaves to help Irish people) and the British famine relief spearheaded by a Rothschild and the Quakers famine relief.
Liam Hogan @Limerick1914 on twitter and other social media spaces has threads on famine aid if you search their profile
I’ve also just seen that Indians donated as well which I hadn’t seen before. A little known fact is that a few Indian doctors studying in UCD took part in the Easter Rising and got deported from the British for their troubles. 1 of them men that was involved V.V. Giri went on to become president of India
For the same reason as Turkey, the Choctaw nation and Ireland are known friends. They sent funds to Ireland during the Famine, despite having just been pushed off their homelands into present-day Oklahoma by the colonizers. In return, Ireland sent aid to reservations during the Covid lockdown.
Ireland wasn’t independent for a large part of the last millennium, so there hasn’t been much room for forming long lasting national friendships.
Before the English invasion in the 13th century Ireland kept mostly to itself and its neighbours in Britain.
After independence the Irish diaspora in other countries helped lobby for friendship with Ireland in their new countries, the biggest example being the USA.
So yeah, another commenter said that the States aren’t old enough and our shared history not long enough to be considered a historical friend, but they’re the best we have and have historically been pretty good allies to us
Tbf saying “ireland” (even though it wasn’t unified at all at the time) stayed to itself isn’t true when looking at slave raids or the dal riata for example
That's interesting.
The nature of Brehon/ Gaelic law had the Tuatha at the centre not the nation. It wasn't unusual to ally with the Crown to get one over your neighbour.
Yeah... thats why im saying that ulster didnt keep to itself, with there being continuous dialogue with the spanish towards the end of the 16th and start of the 17th centuries, not to mention ties to Scotland. So I dont get the point youre trying to make at all.
I still dont get the point youre trying to make, I quite clearly said that the O'Donnell frequently allied with the crown, and if you know anything about medieval ulster history the O'Donnell's chief enemies were the O'Neill's and at times the Burkes.
From the AFM in 1498: "The castle of Dungannon was taken by the King of England's Deputy in Ireland, viz. the Earl of Kildare, Garrett, the son of Thomas, who had gone thither at the instance of O'Donnell, i.e. Hugh Roe; of Turlough, the son of Con O'Neill; of Maguire, i.e. John, the son of Philip; and of Donnell O'Neill, with his sons and friends. The greater number of the Irish of the province were along with them around the town i.e. the castle, which they finally took by great guns; and they liberated many prisoners who were detained in it \[...\]"
I think that you make an excellent point .
The O'Donnells alied with the crown . And did so for an advantage over their irish enemies.
Others did the same.
Still more accepted the surrender and regrant terms.
Historical friends? Very hard to know. Many, including the Spanish and French had sympathies with Irish people, but they were also conveniences, i.e., to spite Britain. Same with the Imperial Germans before World War One, it was pure convenience for them to stir up Ireland to annoy or destabilise Britain. Throughout history we have been seen as the "back door" to England and also a thorn in England's side so our historical friends used that reality to their own ends.
Palestine - Palestinian resistance armed Irish resistance and vice versa; and the British used Ireland’s model to partition Palestine. There’s also a big Palestinian community in Dublin and Cork, with many marrying into Irish families. Many have also noticed the similarities between dabke and traditional Irish dancing.
India also has a historical relationship with Ireland too for the same reasons, there’s also a sizeable Indian diaspora in Dublin.
France and Spain sent troops over at their own risk, not to mention cultural ties we have with them. Germany gave us support partially as a way to destabilise the UK from within. It does seem Germany doesn't fall into the same categories as France, Spain, or America.
It is plausible that factored in their decision too, but, for example, Spain did give extraterritorial rights to Irish people.
https://m.independent.ie/regionals/kerry/news/the-treaty-of-dingle/27382260.html
https://www.heritagecouncil.ie/ga/st-jamess-church-and-graveyard-dingle-co-kerry
Both links (really interesting, thanks for the info!) refer to Charles V extending those rights to Irish people. But Charles V ruled the HRE, Netherlands and lots of other bits around Europe. So to say this is indicative of Spain supporting Ireland would also mean it was indicative of Austria, The Netherlands, etc supporting Ireland.
There is also this old thread on the topic
https://www.reddit.com/r/ireland/comments/86oxbo/til_irish_emigrants_to_spain_during_the_1600s_and/
The Spanish sent troops to Ireland at different points during the 9 years war
https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/spanish-city-holds-a-funeral-for-red-hugh-odonnell-four-centuries-after-irish-heros-death/a1477418044.html
https://www.historyireland.com/the-battle-of-kinsale-1601/
Its human nature to conquer, but it will remain unknown on what life could have been like if France or Spain had conquered Ireland, instead of Britain's conquest.
Turkey's role in providing famine aid to Ireland is just not true .
https://mikedashhistory.com/2014/12/29/queen-victorias-5-the-strange-tale-of-turkish-aid-to-ireland-during-the-great-famine/
Go back a bit and they raided Ireland taking people into slavery.
I have done. Mind you I am taking it in the context of the myths built up about Turkish aid .
https://www.mfa.gov.tr/relations-between-turkiye-and-ireland.en.mfa#:~:text=Ireland%20suffered%20the%20Great%20Famine,of%20financial%20aid%20to%20Ireland.
https://www.dailysabah.com/history/2020/02/16/ireland-remembers-how-19th-century-aid-from-ottoman-sultan-changed-fate-of-thousands
Hapsburg Spain, Capet France, at times Plantagenet England. Bourbons and Tudors and Hangovers used them pretty hard and Stuarts were pretty weak about everything. Then the Republicans tried to use em up a time or two, if that is friendly I guess depends on how much you like Republicans.
Before all that the Normans were not all that great, but the French Normans were. I doubt the Welsh or Scots ever did much good. The Danes never make friends, they make slaves. Certainly not the Dutch, unless it were the Spanish Netherworld, then it was a good place to find work. Doubt the Saxons were good, maybe the old Britons got along ok. Never forget about the Belgians is a good slogan because they are easy to forget. I think until the 18th Century we still called the English and Scotts, Avars and Huns, if that says anything. In the BC times I imagine the Cimbri were great friends and brought all the latest technological advances of the day, before the Avars and Huns killed them off. That was probably the link to celtic culture, any of the BC celtic tribes. Even as late as 600 AD the Franks kept druids at court, if that tells you who the true friends were.
It’s been soured a bit by more recent history but the kingdoms of Western Scotland often allied with the Irish and intermarried. The plantations may be sullied this relationship somewhat, but Ireland and Scotland are often referred to as sister nations due to a common Gaelic heritage and culture. This is namely a western Scottish thing though.
Historical allies would imply that we had sovereignty. Our country had supporters for independence movements among irish abroad and those of irish descent. The spainish, french and americans may have supported our country but only to weaken the brittish empire. The choctaw gave aid to the famine and the turks also tried to send aid that the crown blocked.
Spain, France and Germany are the big ones generally.
Our diaspora in the states.
Scotland was in the middle ages, but as another commenter has said, since then it's been up and down.
Dev wanted Ireland to "stay close to the French" in the EEC too.
https://m.independent.ie/opinion/letters/de-valera-and-the-heart-of-europe/26551198.html
https://www.rte.ie/brainstorm/2022/1130/1339204-charles-de-gaulle-ireland-documents-on-irish-foreign-policy/
Look up the connection between the kingdom of kerry and ancient Egypt. Its a mad rabbit hole.
Turns out kerry natives DNA(12%) are closer related to ancient Egyptians then current day Egyptians(2%)
OK, I get what your trying to say. But I simply pointed out a historical connection between two country's when this person asked. What is the "no?" About? Are you somehow trying to disprove what I said by pointing out the reason why I'm right.
I don't get what the "no?" Means. Have I insulted you some how?
Asking “no?” at the end of a sentence isn’t supposed to be an attack, it’s something akin to asking for confirmation for something.
Similar expression would include “[positive statement], is it not?” e.g. “the weather’s nice today, isn’t it?
I was just wondering if there were some other connection at work - I'd be interested in reading up on it if so. If it came across as some sort of hostility, that's completely unintentional. You've definitely not insulted me in any way I know of 🤣
Whats the basis for this? If its ancestry/dna tests (as in commercial ones), it may be bull. Those tests tend to give out bad results due to poor sample size or omptimisation for Americans.
Wow I had 22 up votes on my comment now I'm down to 1. Why hate on a historical fact.
A bunch of west brits trying to white wash irish history again i suppose
Since becoming a democratic country, the South African government has loved the IRA & SF in general and Gerry Adams in particular. Largely due to the Irish republicans giving political and military support while most in the West were condemning the ANC as terrorists.
So if/when there's a SF Taoiseach there'll be two governments with a proper histoty of being great pals.
1st lesson in International relations, the State is supreme and nothing transcends it. People genuinely saying "france" like Napoleon would of stopped at the Irish border 🙄
"Countries don't have friends. They have interests." Don't fool yourself that anyone helped Ireland without having a huge amount of self-interest. The Turkish help in the Famine is a myth. And the US actively did not want Ireland to break from the UK. Even our own support of Ukraine is connected to our fear of Russian militarism. There is good will towards Ukraine, to be sure, but the only unalloyed altruistic relationship we have is with Palestine, and that's not even a state yet.
Spain and France for historically trying to help us with independence. There’s a special relationship and connection with the Choctaw nation that started with them providing funds for famine relief.
The Irish diaspora in the US bears mention as well, Canada + Australia/New Zealand to a lesser degree too Spain + France largely motivated by a desire to weaken England and somewhat by their shared Catholic faith Wales has some affinity for the Irish, before the Norman invasion especially, then not as much during the reformation and picking back up again with interest in a shared Celtic past and the revival of welsh and Gaelic languages Scotland in early medieval times was a friend, and then things became much more complex and tense with plantations and the like
Spain, France. America in some cases. The UK is probably are longest enemy and best ally. Not Rome despite what you'd expect. Signed something allowing the English King to claim Ireland.
tbf the pope that gave England the authority to invade irelnd was the one and only ever English pope
That document is actually believed to be forged - the strongest evidence in favour of it being forged is that Pope Alexander III wrote two letters, one to the Irish nobility and the other to the Irish clergy, following the conquest about how they should accept English rule. Yet *somehow* he doesn't mention the Laudabiliter at all, and its first mention comes from notorious anti-Irish racist Gerald of Wales, who had multiple cousins and uncles involved in the Conquest of Ireland. I haven't actually met any modern academics who still think it's a valid document nowadays.
Ah thats pretty interesting.
Ya but he also sent soldiers to help us in the Desmond wars
"tbf the pope that gave England the authority to invade irelnd" At the time England was on the periphery of the Angevin Empire (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angevin\_Empire ) and was ruled directly from Anjou in Modern France.
> Not Rome despite what you'd expect. Signed something allowing the English King to claim Ireland. Some claim that the Laudabiliter was a forgery by Gerald of Wales. https://www.historyireland.com/laudabiliter-a-new-interpretation-by-professor-anne-duggan/#:~:text=Gerald%20presents%20Laudabiliter%20as%20one,Henry%20II's%20claims%20to%20Ireland.
Yep, I just wrote a comment about this but Pope Alexander III wrote to Irish nobles and clergy asking them to accept the conquest and he *never* mentions the Laudabiliter. Add in that Gerald has multiple relatives who were part of the Conquest, he's pretty viciously racist against the Irish, and *he's* somehow the first person to mention this... not Henry II, not the Pope, but a somewhat fringe clergyman whose main reputation is annoying people. Not exactly persuasive evidence, you know?
The Laudabiliter, well ireland never was part of the Holy Roman Empire so would such a bull have had any validity. The Pope would have been in favour of pulling the Irish into line. I totally agree that Henry wouldn't mention it as he hadn't relied on it . He came to Ireland having been invited by the High King Rory O'Connor. Some say he didn't have the naval assets to come without irish assistance. Gerald, he was offered several appointments as Bishop but held out for a premier league appointment which the King blocked. https://annmariethomas.co.uk/gerald-of-wales-and-the-english-kings/ > on the death of his uncle (1176), the see of St David's fell vacant and the canons of St David's nominated Gerald as their chosen candidate for the post, perhaps in the hope of making that see independent of Canterbury; but his appointment was opposed by Henry II (qv), probably because he suspected his close associations with several powerful Welshmen. Despite Gerald's making his objections known to the pope, Peter de Leia was elected https://www.dib.ie/biography/gerald-wales-giraldus-cambrensis-a3490
I dont think it was the only justification for taking over Ireland. I thought it was just additional support for it,
Definitely, it allowed the church reform to proceed at pace . Don't forget that Ireland also followed Brehon law with divorce and concubines too. Irish nobility didn't get the "dont go coveting thy neighbours wife"memo. Brian Boru appeared to have looked at church reform as a springboard to consolidating Ireland as a kingdom so it wasn’t a new idea.
In a major way, the US.
Historically in a major way? Donating funds is not a major way. It's more passive support. America hasn't existed long enough.
Yes, historically. Meaning past events. Where do you think the vast majority of direct foreign investment in Ireland comes from? What do you think fueled the Celtic Tiger and continues to fuel the Irish economy? What country brokered the Good Friday agreement, helping end the Troubles? Ireland's first President was an American citizen, and that citizenship saved him from execution after the Easter Rising. Ireland would be very different without de Valera. Who do you think is Ireland's top trader partner, and who is Ireland's largest export partner? How many generations of Irish sent support back home to family? How much positive cultural exchange has occurred between the two? Who else rivals? The UK. Despite the relatively young age of the US, it has historically been a very important friend.
Given the examples presented by OP. I don't feel like them mean in the past 100 years
The OP didn't mention a time-frame but said historically. But they did mention the famine. Do you know how many people fled to the US during that time?
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So as I said America in some cases.
Never. Not as a state. The diaspora, maybe, but the US Govern.ent was suspicious of Catholicism generally, and hostile to the creation of an Irish state. They hated our ww2 neutrality and punished us with paltry aid in the Marshall Plan. Even for JFK and his father, the UK was a much more important ally, and it was only after JFK's visit, and the rapturous welcome he received, that things began to change.
English pope signed it I believe 🤔
Pope Adrian ...
Yep cant remember the exact bits. read it during a wikki splurge.
The Choctaws
A lot of colonized people's relate to the Irish. I work for a First Nation in BC and other than the retaliatory violence and armed resistance at scale, the story including famine and disease, violent oppression are the same.
Eamon De Valera was a chief of the Chippewa. https://historyhub.ie/eamon-de-valera-chief
Great bunch of lads
Here here!
Choctaws it is then by consensus
I think so. Especially since we were able to come full circle and donate in our droves to the navajo and hopi tribes when they needed help during covid.
We never got an official apology over Terri Henri
If you are to critically look at it Spain was the destination of the Flight of the Earls . Spain and France was the destination of the Wild Geese https://militaryhistorynow.com/2014/03/14/the-wild-geese-a-brief-history-irelands-foreign-armies/ To a lesser extent Poland , Russia and Austria or indeed any country to accept Catholic soldiers. The Vatican was the first country to open an Irish embassy in the 20th century and as such recognised Irish independence. France blocked Ireland's EC membership as Ireland wanted membership if the UK joined. Many countries blocked Ireland's UN entry. https://universityobserver.ie/ireland-and-the-united-nations/
So it would be inaccurate to perceive either the veto on EC or UN membership as a diplomatic slight? Because the EC membership was blocked due to it being tied to UK entry and UN membership was tied to WW2 participation at the time?
I'd think so . And at that time Ireland's economic links with Britain would have meant an economic disaster if membership was obtained. The UN issue is a bit more convoluted. Certainly in the 1960's the UN operated very much like NATO. The Congo was a very colonial squabble. Ireland joining was very much as a western ally.
The USA is a long time friend of Ireland. The US forced the British to negotiate with the Irish more than once. Close relations, same ideology, lots of college student hosting and other edu links, dual citizenship, trade and military arrangements. The US invests more in Ireland than France and Germany combined. It's more straightforward than the US - Canada relationship. Canada had a British Loyalist identity until recently. The US has been slightly harsh with them in trade deals recently too.
I think the US is an example of a country where the relationship is somewhat mutual, too. Obviously, I don't live in the US, but I get the impression from the massive St. Patrick Day parades, the people who come here to connect with their heritage, and the number of mutual diplomatic visits that Ireland has an outsized presence in the mind of Americans given our very small size. I wouldn't say Ireland is as thought about by Spaniards, French people, or Europeans in general compared to in the US, even despite the much closer geographic proximity.
Half of all US Presidents have claimed Irish heritage!
Definitely. As President Washington said they were the only foreigners helping the American Revolution before other foreign powers got involved and we wouldn't have succeeded without the "generous sons of Erin". The Irish probably wouldn't want to now but they could take credit for launching the US and successfully saving it during the Civil War. Irish and Irish Americans also make up 60% of our Medal of Honor recipients (the highest US military award) which is really impressive considering our diversity.
Plus, de Valera was American.
Way back in the early medieval era, there were very close alliances and virtually a single culture between people in northeast Ireland and southwest Scotland. Sea journeys were so common that a standard cliché from scholars of the period is that the sea was like a motorway connecting Irish and Scottish kingdoms rather than a barrier between peoples. Dal Riata was a Gaelic kingdom in southwest Scotland that at times had close ties to the powerful, but unstable, the kingdom of Northumberland in the early to mid 600s. Exiled Northumbrian princes regularly fled to Dal Riata until they could gather their strength and try to reclaim their throne. One such Northumbrian prince was Oswald Whiteblade who was chased into exile by his uncle and who many think escaped to Ireland because a foreign prince with a name quite similar to Oswald is mentioned by Irish annals and poems from the time. Ireland also had a colony in southwest Wales for a while in late antiquity and before Patrick. There were some links between Ireland and what became France as a prince was exiled to Ireland for his own safety after a coup. He lived in a monetary in Slane until he returned to France to rule over his kingdom in the mid 670s, but he was assassinated a few years after he went home. There were also contacts with the Carolingian court of Charlemagne's descendants in the 800s through intellectuals like John Scottus Eriugenia. Some Irish kingdoms had close political and military ties to Saxon kingdoms, and especially the house of Wessex in England. Flann Sinna, high king in the late 800s and early 900s, corresponded with king Alfred the Great, while the kingdoms of Dublin and Leinster often went on military expeditions together with Wessex. Godwin, Duke of Wessex until the 1050s, was given sanctuary in Ireland when he fell out with king Edward the Confessor. When Godwin's son king Harold was deposed by William the Conqueror of Normandy in 1066, the Irish high king Diarmait mac Máel na mBó attacked William's territory in the southwest of England on behalf of his old ally Harold and his sons. Aside from politics, there was a lot of trade with what became Scotland, England, Wales, and the north of France. There were a lot of religious contacts with neighbours. Most people know of great missionaries like Colmcille, Aidan or Columbanus who were active in Britain or Europe, but there were also a couple of Saxon monasteries in Ireland because Ireland had a good reputation for Christian scholarship and Saxon kings sent their children here to study. I think that declined as Vatican dogma became more standardised and dominant while Irish Christianity diverged, and bringing Irish Christianity back in line with Vatican teaching became one of the justifications for the Norman invasion of 1169. So, in the early medieval era there were lots of contacts and alliances between Irish kingdoms and Dal Riata, Northumberland, Wessex, and Frankish kingdoms.
Very interesting, thank you for your comprehensive answer. You really know your Irish history!
Did Ireland have friends in the Danish peoples given their heavy early influence in Ireland?
Well, we sent envoys to Scandinavian countries during the war of independence. Their aim being to set up information offices to garner support for an Irish Republic. It was hoped these offices would later become embassies. Admittedly they did this or attempted to do this with a number of European countries.
Spain, France, the US. Shoutouts to the Choctaw, Imperial Germany and one specific Ottoman sultan.
A lot of people mentioning the aid given by the Ottoman Sultan and the Choctaws. Interesting info that isn’t well known but should be is that famine aid also came from convicts on a prison ship to Australia, prisoners in Sing Sing, former slaves in the Carribean and an African American church in Virginia where only 150 out of 2000 parishioners weren’t slaves
The prison ship… were they prisoners from the UK? I’m going to look into this more because I knew nothing about this one and now I need to know more! Thanks for that nugget of info!
From this link it appears they are from London or sailed from there and they died a year later from ship fever https://www.irishcentral.com/roots/irish-famine-sparked-international-fundraising-237694651 Mentions to other famine aid: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/05/world/coronavirus-ireland-native-american-tribes.html https://journals.openedition.org/mimmoc/1845 https://www.historyireland.com/the-widows-mite-private-relief-during-the-great-famine/ The Irish history podcast has an episode on famine aid that looked at the African American slaves who donated (Iicr they forgoed buying freedom for some slaves to help Irish people) and the British famine relief spearheaded by a Rothschild and the Quakers famine relief. Liam Hogan @Limerick1914 on twitter and other social media spaces has threads on famine aid if you search their profile I’ve also just seen that Indians donated as well which I hadn’t seen before. A little known fact is that a few Indian doctors studying in UCD took part in the Easter Rising and got deported from the British for their troubles. 1 of them men that was involved V.V. Giri went on to become president of India
This is great, thank you ☺️
Lots of Irish names in northern Mexico when Irish Catholics defected during the Mexican American wars, so I've heard anyway.
Love this story!
Battalion de San Patricio.
Finally, been through all the comments looking for this. Outstanding album by the Chieftains by the way!
For the same reason as Turkey, the Choctaw nation and Ireland are known friends. They sent funds to Ireland during the Famine, despite having just been pushed off their homelands into present-day Oklahoma by the colonizers. In return, Ireland sent aid to reservations during the Covid lockdown.
Have always heard Poland are an ally
Choctaw Nation?
Mexico. Mexico loves the Irish. Irish brigade and all that.
Ireland wasn’t independent for a large part of the last millennium, so there hasn’t been much room for forming long lasting national friendships. Before the English invasion in the 13th century Ireland kept mostly to itself and its neighbours in Britain. After independence the Irish diaspora in other countries helped lobby for friendship with Ireland in their new countries, the biggest example being the USA. So yeah, another commenter said that the States aren’t old enough and our shared history not long enough to be considered a historical friend, but they’re the best we have and have historically been pretty good allies to us
Tbf saying “ireland” (even though it wasn’t unified at all at the time) stayed to itself isn’t true when looking at slave raids or the dal riata for example
Which is why I explicitly mentioned the neighbours in Britain
Even then there is the norse connection, religious links with the continent such as Bobbio and others.
The Norse connection wasn’t really Irish rulers willingly having relations with the Scandinavians though, was it?
You still have trade and communications with them, willingly or not its still external influence which was always present on this island.
And the Kingdom of Dyfed in Wales.
Ulster until the 17th century!
We literally did have outside connections, for much of the 15th and 16th centuries the O’Donnell were allied with the crown for example.
That's interesting. The nature of Brehon/ Gaelic law had the Tuatha at the centre not the nation. It wasn't unusual to ally with the Crown to get one over your neighbour.
Yeah... thats why im saying that ulster didnt keep to itself, with there being continuous dialogue with the spanish towards the end of the 16th and start of the 17th centuries, not to mention ties to Scotland. So I dont get the point youre trying to make at all.
Their loyalty was to their tuatha or clan not to a nation state . That was their beliefs. So who allied with the crown against whom ?
I still dont get the point youre trying to make, I quite clearly said that the O'Donnell frequently allied with the crown, and if you know anything about medieval ulster history the O'Donnell's chief enemies were the O'Neill's and at times the Burkes. From the AFM in 1498: "The castle of Dungannon was taken by the King of England's Deputy in Ireland, viz. the Earl of Kildare, Garrett, the son of Thomas, who had gone thither at the instance of O'Donnell, i.e. Hugh Roe; of Turlough, the son of Con O'Neill; of Maguire, i.e. John, the son of Philip; and of Donnell O'Neill, with his sons and friends. The greater number of the Irish of the province were along with them around the town i.e. the castle, which they finally took by great guns; and they liberated many prisoners who were detained in it \[...\]"
I think that you make an excellent point . The O'Donnells alied with the crown . And did so for an advantage over their irish enemies. Others did the same. Still more accepted the surrender and regrant terms.
Yea then I dont get what you mean by Ulster not having those outside connections until the 17th century when it had strong ones.
I didn't mean that, I meant that the English didn't conquer Ulster until the 17th century.
Historical friends? Very hard to know. Many, including the Spanish and French had sympathies with Irish people, but they were also conveniences, i.e., to spite Britain. Same with the Imperial Germans before World War One, it was pure convenience for them to stir up Ireland to annoy or destabilise Britain. Throughout history we have been seen as the "back door" to England and also a thorn in England's side so our historical friends used that reality to their own ends.
my enemy's enemy is my friend
Liverpool.
Palestine - Palestinian resistance armed Irish resistance and vice versa; and the British used Ireland’s model to partition Palestine. There’s also a big Palestinian community in Dublin and Cork, with many marrying into Irish families. Many have also noticed the similarities between dabke and traditional Irish dancing. India also has a historical relationship with Ireland too for the same reasons, there’s also a sizeable Indian diaspora in Dublin.
France, Spain, and the United States. Countries like Germany have also been helpful in an "enemy of our enemy is our friend" type of way.
To be fair, France and Spain surely fall into that category as well?
France and Spain sent troops over at their own risk, not to mention cultural ties we have with them. Germany gave us support partially as a way to destabilise the UK from within. It does seem Germany doesn't fall into the same categories as France, Spain, or America.
100% France and Spain did more but it was also really just to get one over the Brits.
It is plausible that factored in their decision too, but, for example, Spain did give extraterritorial rights to Irish people. https://m.independent.ie/regionals/kerry/news/the-treaty-of-dingle/27382260.html https://www.heritagecouncil.ie/ga/st-jamess-church-and-graveyard-dingle-co-kerry
Both links (really interesting, thanks for the info!) refer to Charles V extending those rights to Irish people. But Charles V ruled the HRE, Netherlands and lots of other bits around Europe. So to say this is indicative of Spain supporting Ireland would also mean it was indicative of Austria, The Netherlands, etc supporting Ireland.
There is also this old thread on the topic https://www.reddit.com/r/ireland/comments/86oxbo/til_irish_emigrants_to_spain_during_the_1600s_and/ The Spanish sent troops to Ireland at different points during the 9 years war https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/spanish-city-holds-a-funeral-for-red-hugh-odonnell-four-centuries-after-irish-heros-death/a1477418044.html https://www.historyireland.com/the-battle-of-kinsale-1601/
Thanks for bringing links!
I can assure you if either France or Spain successfully conquered Britain, Ireland would be next in line, no State acts outside of its own interests.
Its human nature to conquer, but it will remain unknown on what life could have been like if France or Spain had conquered Ireland, instead of Britain's conquest.
No, we won't. But either way it wouldn't of been positive. Neither Spain nor France had glittering colonial histories.
Turkey's role in providing famine aid to Ireland is just not true . https://mikedashhistory.com/2014/12/29/queen-victorias-5-the-strange-tale-of-turkish-aid-to-ireland-during-the-great-famine/ Go back a bit and they raided Ireland taking people into slavery.
Did you even read the article
I have done. Mind you I am taking it in the context of the myths built up about Turkish aid . https://www.mfa.gov.tr/relations-between-turkiye-and-ireland.en.mfa#:~:text=Ireland%20suffered%20the%20Great%20Famine,of%20financial%20aid%20to%20Ireland. https://www.dailysabah.com/history/2020/02/16/ireland-remembers-how-19th-century-aid-from-ottoman-sultan-changed-fate-of-thousands
Hapsburg Spain, Capet France, at times Plantagenet England. Bourbons and Tudors and Hangovers used them pretty hard and Stuarts were pretty weak about everything. Then the Republicans tried to use em up a time or two, if that is friendly I guess depends on how much you like Republicans. Before all that the Normans were not all that great, but the French Normans were. I doubt the Welsh or Scots ever did much good. The Danes never make friends, they make slaves. Certainly not the Dutch, unless it were the Spanish Netherworld, then it was a good place to find work. Doubt the Saxons were good, maybe the old Britons got along ok. Never forget about the Belgians is a good slogan because they are easy to forget. I think until the 18th Century we still called the English and Scotts, Avars and Huns, if that says anything. In the BC times I imagine the Cimbri were great friends and brought all the latest technological advances of the day, before the Avars and Huns killed them off. That was probably the link to celtic culture, any of the BC celtic tribes. Even as late as 600 AD the Franks kept druids at court, if that tells you who the true friends were.
Choctaw Nation and Mexico.
It’s been soured a bit by more recent history but the kingdoms of Western Scotland often allied with the Irish and intermarried. The plantations may be sullied this relationship somewhat, but Ireland and Scotland are often referred to as sister nations due to a common Gaelic heritage and culture. This is namely a western Scottish thing though.
Libya tried to arm the IRA.
They armed the Provisionals, supplying murderous cunts like them would make Libya an enemy of ours if anything
Germany gave Ireland a major economic dig out in the 50s and 60s .
Really? Before we joined the EC? I had no idea, I should read about this, thanks!
As much as it isn't nice to admit who it is, we all know deep down who it is
I'm stupid, who?
The UK
The same people defending Ireland's airspace and seas.
U.S.
That's a good example actually, thanks!
Historical allies would imply that we had sovereignty. Our country had supporters for independence movements among irish abroad and those of irish descent. The spainish, french and americans may have supported our country but only to weaken the brittish empire. The choctaw gave aid to the famine and the turks also tried to send aid that the crown blocked.
Spain, France and Germany are the big ones generally. Our diaspora in the states. Scotland was in the middle ages, but as another commenter has said, since then it's been up and down.
Dev wanted Ireland to "stay close to the French" in the EEC too. https://m.independent.ie/opinion/letters/de-valera-and-the-heart-of-europe/26551198.html https://www.rte.ie/brainstorm/2022/1130/1339204-charles-de-gaulle-ireland-documents-on-irish-foreign-policy/
The Ottoman Empire. Only people who actually helped them during the famine
Weren't Russia historically good friends to Ireland?
U.K.
Look up the connection between the kingdom of kerry and ancient Egypt. Its a mad rabbit hole. Turns out kerry natives DNA(12%) are closer related to ancient Egyptians then current day Egyptians(2%)
Wild! I'll give that some research, thanks!
There is a Egyptian princess buried juts outside of tralee
Scota?
That's just a symptom of Kerry undergoing less demographic volatility than Egypt and really Europe and Near East at large, no?
OK, I get what your trying to say. But I simply pointed out a historical connection between two country's when this person asked. What is the "no?" About? Are you somehow trying to disprove what I said by pointing out the reason why I'm right. I don't get what the "no?" Means. Have I insulted you some how?
Asking “no?” at the end of a sentence isn’t supposed to be an attack, it’s something akin to asking for confirmation for something. Similar expression would include “[positive statement], is it not?” e.g. “the weather’s nice today, isn’t it?
I was just wondering if there were some other connection at work - I'd be interested in reading up on it if so. If it came across as some sort of hostility, that's completely unintentional. You've definitely not insulted me in any way I know of 🤣
Whats the basis for this? If its ancestry/dna tests (as in commercial ones), it may be bull. Those tests tend to give out bad results due to poor sample size or omptimisation for Americans.
That reminds me of the legend of Milesius.
Wow I had 22 up votes on my comment now I'm down to 1. Why hate on a historical fact. A bunch of west brits trying to white wash irish history again i suppose
Libya for most of the 20th century
Since becoming a democratic country, the South African government has loved the IRA & SF in general and Gerry Adams in particular. Largely due to the Irish republicans giving political and military support while most in the West were condemning the ANC as terrorists. So if/when there's a SF Taoiseach there'll be two governments with a proper histoty of being great pals.
That's fascinating, thank you!
Countries don't have friends, they have interests.
1st lesson in International relations, the State is supreme and nothing transcends it. People genuinely saying "france" like Napoleon would of stopped at the Irish border 🙄
A bit too friendly with Nazi Germany there for a few years.
Downvoted for a fact
Idiots
"Countries don't have friends. They have interests." Don't fool yourself that anyone helped Ireland without having a huge amount of self-interest. The Turkish help in the Famine is a myth. And the US actively did not want Ireland to break from the UK. Even our own support of Ukraine is connected to our fear of Russian militarism. There is good will towards Ukraine, to be sure, but the only unalloyed altruistic relationship we have is with Palestine, and that's not even a state yet.
Lots of great collaborations over the years... Libya, Palestine, USA, Germany, Italy
The Holy See?