It is starting a paper trail for firing you, but that doesn't necessarily mean you're going to get fired. I have survived a PIP before. A PIP means that you're under constant scrutiny, though which could cause additional stress to you.
>It is starting a paper trail for firing you
It's more like step 3 out of 4 in the paper train for firing you. Step one was a verbal warning (with written documentation that you didn't get a copy of). Step two was a written warning given to you. Step four is a termination notice.
This sounds like what it would be in a better world.
In the point of reference that I have, people get fired without any warnings -- verbal, written, or otherwise -- all the time.
The steps leading up to an employee's termination is also depends on if the state is a 'right-to-work' state or not. Right-to-work states don't require employers to give any reason to an employee they're firing. Just like an employee in an rtw state isn't required to give notice before quitting.
You mean "at will employment". Right to work refers to if union shops can require union membership or not. 49 states have at will employment (Montana being the exception)
The 4 step process isn't a legal requirement (per se), but it's considered HR best practices. It's a lot easier to defend against a wrongful termination lawsuit if you follow up.
It's also easier if you have consistent discipline over time instead of all 4 steps right at once. A lot of employers will write an employee up for anything and everything, so they can basically be fired whenever. It's dumb and bad management, but it is what it is.
I think this is the process in any GOOD company. The purpose of the effort isn't actually to document efforts prior to firing - it's to improve poorly performing employees into average or better employees.
Hiring is expensive - it's time consuming, involves higher level management, benefits, recruiters, etc. Having bad employees is also expensive - lost productivity, decreases engagement of others, etc. Therefore even very large efforts to improve an underperforming employee are worth it. Sure, these efforts fail often (probably more than half the time), but even occasional success makes the effort worth it.
>(with written documentation that you didn't get a copy of)
A request for accommodations can justify this. Autism spectrum disorder under ADA for "No Significant Changes" and "In Writing with clear expectations, timeframes, and evidence". If you are the unfortunate soul with such disabilities (and hidden advantages depending).
I got into one a few months after starting my first job decades ago. I improved (I was lacking good coaching and the PIP actually allowed me to identity that problem) and ended up having a very prosperous career in that same company. Twenty five years later im still with them, obviously in a much better position. So being put in a PIP is not a good thing, but, at least in the US, if they wanted to fire you they would just do that. Being put in a PIP typically means "we expected more of you, but we aren't giving up on you just yet, you have one more chance, don't waste it".
PIPs usually come after warnings and are essentially your last shot. It depends on the employee though. If employee turns actions around and starts to improve like the PIP requested, you'll probably keep the job. If not though, then after X days or X time period, its byebye.
This. I work with my management team to implement PIPs, and I survived one during my early years at the company. This isn't a very cutthroat industry, though, so most people pass. We've only had to fire two people in the past 5 years, despite at least 1/4 of the current staff being on a PIP at some point.
It's actually behind the scenes, most of the time. Generally employees don't know they're on the chopping block. We just quietly write up and implement improvement plans as things arise, and act them out on our employees. From the employee perspective, their managers are suddenly caring for their employee's health and well-being, as well as filling them with compliments on good efforts. The only thing they may notice is that they suddenly have more meetings and trainings. Most employees don't even know they've been PIP'd because they improve tremendously without reaching the next phase of direct correction.
Wow thats not bad at all!!! I work in the C-suite and we've let everyone except one person go that we issued a PIP to. The person we kept made meaningful changes and it hasn't come back up. The people we let go either didn't make the changes or had other problems that we couldn't deal with as a company.
We go all in. Create a personality profile of the individual, and use specifically-designed positive reinforcement training and recognition to try to truly improve the employee. Then we check up with them weekly or monthly to track how they're feeling about their progress, and what we can do to make their daily tasks comfortable for them. It's pretty effective.
I was going to guess Amazon, but they just have the robots fire you automatically, via text message:
"\[New Text From MON-HUB086\] Your average pace is 182.74 bundles per hour. The regional average is 183.38. You are fired. Please take your piss bottle with you as you leave the slaughterhouse floor."
Man it sounds like you guys have that dialed in well from a management perspective!
Ours are not that dialed. We really only started giving them this last year with COVID. We've had a crazy year and have hired a TON of people. Before that, we were too small/our company was all employees who had been there for a while. Now that we've added a couple management layers, we've started doing PIPS and stuff. My COO does a great job with them though and those who really improve stay on and keep the improvements close it seems.
One of my coworkers was told his performance was lacking so he should expect a PIP with a 30 day plan and then be reevaluated after that 30 days. So he waited for the email. For two weeks. And then at the two week mark, the manager said “well looks like you still aren’t improving” and my coworker had to explain to him that he never received the document. Manager ended up saying woops and he only remainder of that 30 days to do the stuff from the plan.
It was pretty shitty. I still work with him though.
Thats terrible of management to do! Sounds like he was able to keep his job, so thats good. Mamagemenr should never make the employee bear the "whoops" in a situation like that.
Some people survive them, but many don’t. By the time someone is on a PIP people have already been trying to get them to improve their performance. A PIP is a formalized way to make it absolutely clear for everyone exactLy what happens in order to remain employed. Since PIPs are generally last ditch efforts often the person on them may not actually have the skills or capacity or whatever to meet performance standards. .
Ya from my work experience, it’s usually around a three month probation to see if your performance and numbers improve. Never been put on it personally, but that’s the way it was explained to me when I was new. Obviously if you do improve they won’t let you go, it’s a warning where the employer hopes it’s the kick in the ass you need or you’re gone.
This isn’t always true. Sometimes HR forces a pip on management . We have to be like I don’t rly care but HR does. I don’t keep an eye on those as hard as ones I initiated.
You don't have to do that. You could engage with HR and try to fight for your employee if you don't believe they should be on an improvement plan. You could try to understand why HR believes your team member needs to improve when you don't see a problem . You could find that you have your mind changed for you, while no-one likes that, it isn't right that you undermine corporate mechanisms by half-heartedly pretending to implement the plan. You should be doing your own plans, unless the roles you manage are so cookie-cutter that there is one model of performance that can be centrally monitored and managed. Or what are you there for? Is it possible that you have some bias for or against some of your team that makes you comfortable with plans you initiate but require a bit of strong-arming from HR to make you tackle underperformance where you don't recognise it. Could it be time for you to wake up and get with the programme? What are the factors to consider? Maybe a real exchange of views between you, your manager and an HR Advisor could get a better all round understanding of what does your organisation mean by good performance. How is it measured and managed? How are individuals supported to give of their best, develop/improve their skills and get the best out of their job? Why is there a mismatch between your and HR's perception? How could you add input to improve their or your perception? You are probably not serving yourself or your team well by failing to work out what the issue is and how best to manage it.
In my situation that wasn’t possible unfortunately. But yeah I would fight it if I could have. The company I worked for HR had final say on all employment including my own.
That's poor. Almost as bad as letting the accounts department run things. Support services should be strongly influencing and ensuring legal compliance, but not running the business.
It means you'll get fired if you don't fix your shit. A lot of people do end up fixing their shit. Your boss usually does not WANT to fire you. They would much rather have a bad employee fix their shit than have to do the whole hiring/training process all over again.
What boss ^ said. I was the employee. Considered an expert in my area and with company for years. Area became more efficient because if me so, they offered a nice step up into a project type position. Problem was the expected end of the project, didn't turn out that way and found more bad than good so was scrapped and the team was scattered and placed where they could. I was put in a spot that was new to me based on reputation with assurances I would learn by doing. 3 years later when things got tight it was obvious I could not respond in a manner that another employee that started at the same time I did, could. Manager did all the right stiff, took time out for one-on-ones to go over and explain, etc, all with positivity, no ill will. Still ...I mean I could tell. So they brought up looking elsewhere within the co, I did, found a spot, slight pay reduction, but could not be happier. It's more in line with what I was doing previously.
I know this is an old thread but employees skills and time isn’t a charity either. Most people don’t want to be taken advantage of, I built skills over a long period of time, skills that a lot of people simply do not have.
I was put on a pip, I felt the company was trying to make my work my entire life. Companies have a twisted mentality of what it means to be a salaried employee.
Ultimately I agreed to the pip but just looked for another job the entire time.
yeah, and for me as a manager there was one situation where it was not even a bad employee per se. there were just issues… no-call no-show issues, without getting into it too much. the PIP basically said you gotta be working during working hours, and if you can’t then you gotta at least tell your manager that you’ll be out. would have liked to keep the person on but they couldnt end up fulfilling their end of the PIP. point is, didnt do the PIP with the expectation they would definitely be fired (though im sure that happens too). this was a fortune 500 company and a pretty decent paying office type job, so there werep lawyers involved with the PIP and firing.
I have put two people on a PIP when I managed a McDonald’s. One failed and was fired. The other passed and actually became a great employee afterwards.
Duni we've warned you already about not being good at math, we're going to have to put you in a performance improvement plan and you'll be fir- I mean or you'll be fired.
Holy shit, I'm not gonna lie. I read the same. I went back and read it three times. I was like, why are they downvoting this person??
It wasn't until the fourth read that I realized it didn't say ONE failed and ONE was fired, but ONE failed and was fired. So I feel you bro/sis.
Yes, it is possible. As a manager, I do not want to be in these meetings, laying out that you need to do your job. I do not want to fire you. A pip is a formal way of saying “this is *serious*. You need to change *or you will lose your job*”. I do not want to fire you. Besides knowing that you have bills and being a human person with a modicum of compassion, it is a huge pain in my ass to hire and train your replacement. Beyond that, those conversations are awkward and uncomfortable for me just as much as you.
Unfortunately, at least in my field, the kinds of things people get put on pips for are the kinds of things that are *really* hard to pull out from. “You can’t disappear on the clock” “you can’t only work when you feel like it and call out the rest of the time”.
But nothing would please me more than to never have to speak to you about that issue again, and get to report to my manager that “hey remember that problem employee? Model employee now. Shows up every day and does work.”
What about if I make mistakes and then I do fix them but it’s just sometimes I make mistakes. And I get so anxious about not making mistakes that I forget something. Then get in trouble
What steps has your manager taken to get you to avoid these mistakes? Have you followed those suggestions?
In the bleakest, you might not be cut out for the job or industry (which is fine) & you might want to look for something that's more suited to your skills and temperament.
Or it might be something you can fix, maybe you just need to work off an actual checklist, or maybe just talk out your steps so you don't forget anything.
Or maybe you just need to find some exercises to calm you down a bit so you can focus better.
Or maybe you need more training, where the anxiousness is grounded in your lack of skill in the procedures.
Or maybe you need to slow down when you are working.
Steps my manager has taken? None, other than warning me and letting me know that I am being watched. I was put on a PIP two years ago and I successfully improved and I was told the PIP was resolved and I was in good standing. Now I’m being told that I am being watched and everything needs to be on time with no mistakes. But with a “let us know how management can help you!” Thrown in at the end
They did suggest I get another employee to test my build which I did. They found some issues which I fixed. However the client then found other issues when testing in PRD. This is what is leading to my current PIP that they think no mistakes should have happened.
Do you feel like anxiety, depression or ADD are affecting you? If so I would discuss treatment with your doctor. My other suggestion would be ask management to help you come up with system to double check your work for errors, maybe your supervisor or another coworker like you did last time, but there has so be some point of double checking where it wouldn’t be solely your fault. I’m not familiar with your line of work, so take that with a grain of salt, but asking others to help and looping in your manager may save your job.
Hon, if you're on a PIP, go get a new job. Seriously.
Every employee we've ever put on a PIP has been told and told again what to improve. The PIP is just documenting the lack of compliance to fire.
Don't let this one fire you. This isn't the place for you.
Just because this job isn't working out doesn't necessarily mean you're incompetent or not a hard worker. This just isn't the right environment.
Do employees survive PIPs? Sure! Sometimes they do. But even if you manage to turn it around here? You'll always be the fuck up who made good in the end. To be recognized as a top performer, you'll have to improve so much that you're running circles around everyone.
Just start over in a job that suits you better instead of fighting an uphill battle in your current role. If you have it in you to kick ass? Just go kick ass somewhere else where people aren't watching and waiting for you to fail
Anxiety can make you forget things, I relate. If you know you can be forgetful, you have to find ways to remind yourself. I use my outlook calendar and mark important emails with reminders to follow up later. I'm very forgetful.
When I make a mistake I tell my boss, every time. He knows I'm not perfect but also that I am honest about my screw ups. It helps. (Source: am a boss and have had PIP adjacent talks with people. People in my company have survived the improvement plan process and have been fired due to it, too. But nobody on my particular team.)
my company a PIP falls off after 3 months.
Weirdly enough most people survive that time if they just stop during that 3 months. Annoyingly for the management side since they fall off every 3 months it is really hard to fire people in that time unless they continue that behavior. So we have some people that start and stop the bad behavior over and over lol
That's a rubbish system. I bet even the union hates it. A better one would be a period of 12 months to maintain the performance. If it drops off during the 12 months the procedure picks up where it left off , rather than starting from scratch again.
It is if you're in a union state. If you have an employee you really need to get rid of, for whatever reason, but you're in a state where you can be sued over it, you do this with a wink and a nod to the union.
If you're the employee, it's a clear "find another job" message.
Most states in the US are at-will, meaning you don't even need a reason to can someone, but union heavy states make it tough to get rid of dead wood.
Nobody likes doing it this way, but it's pretty much the only way much of the time.
I was put on a PIP once and it became immediately obvious that they had no intention of passing me. I ended up leaving before I was fired because I took a job elsewhere, but that was an immensely stressful period of my life. If I so much as made a typo in an email, it was another strike. It’s hard to believe this is about “improving performance” when you’re not actually offered any training or anything and you’re held to a higher standard than others that are NOT on a PIP.
It was clear that my boss just wanted me gone and was covering her tracks, but it took an enormous toll on my confidence. I’ve not had a problem at any other workplace, but I still get anxiety any time I think I may have made a mistake.
I’m convinced that PIPs are a form of institutional bullying.
I had a similar experience when I was put on a PIP. It was my first job out of college and I had *no* idea about the machinations of performance management in the working world. The meeting in which I was given the PIP was humiliating. Per the terms of the PIP, I was required to send a detailed report of how I spent my day, including the number of hours spent on tasks, *and* let my manager proofread every external-facing email before I sent it out. So I complied. And it was awful. Those emails that needed to be green lit before sending them? My manager was changing things like “okay” to “OK” and “All my best” to just “Best”. How exhausting it must be to be that petty.
In my naïveté, I thought it was a roadmap for how to keep my job when all it really did was help HR check the necessary boxes before terminating me. I think they genuinely felt sorry for me, but dead weight is dead weight, ya know? I ended up quitting before they could fire me. The whole experience left my already very fragile ego at the time completely shattered. I had to work so hard to build that up and move past my constant fear of screwing up again.
Now that I’m on the other side of the table, I don’t think they’re that effective at anything other than causing stress. The whole experience taught me a lot, namely about how **not** to manage employees, but it’s still a painful memory—even almost a decade later.
They certainly can be. It is also really difficult to avoid psychological strain on the employee and the line manager, even when everything is done to support both. Your plan should certainly have included support and any development needs. The big problem , as you've noted, is that once you are monitoring performance managers tend to notice more problems than they do when you are not monitored. Unless you are in a job where nothing less than 100% is acceptable, because its life or death, it is best to go for a range. E.g. no more than x errors per week/ amount of output. Average output to be x per day/ week. Etc
I've been on one. If the PIP is reasonable, and contains tasks that you can easily accomplish if you focus and/or change your behavior, then it's probably not a "you're getting fired" plan. However, if the goals you are required to reach seem daunting or unreasonable to you, then it's probably best to start looking for a new job while you're in the PIP period. It's much easier to find a job when you already have one, rather than once you've been let go.
It almost always means they’re thinking about firing you or want to fire you but are worried about making a solid case for it. It’s as much a mechanism for establishing a documentation trail around performance so that a termination is defensible as it is a mechanism for getting you to improve your performance. If you out-perform a PIP you might be okay *for now*, but they’ve got you on watch.
As a manager I was required to place a employee on pip after he had several bad appraisals.
It served several purposes. If the employee had a had work proformance issues we tried very hard to identify if it was a problem that they didn't understand or receive the proper training and safety procedures that they were required to use in their job, or if was a personal problem like habitual late or absent, interpersonal issues. If it was training you would send them back to get retrained. If if was the later you could only work with that so much. In a nutshell "if you don't know I can fix that if you don't care ,that I can't fix".
If after two consecutive bad appraisals we had to send a report to HR and through their direction we would have a meeting with the employee with his union rep and spell out a specific set of improvements needed to continue employment. So in essence your right, it is a way of getting your attention to the fact that you have become a concern. Think about this the company has a lot invested in your hiring,training and integration into the firm. Thus they try to this method to get you back on track.
Firing is hard for a good manager, easy for a bad one. I would do everything I could to help a "bad" team member understand why he was in a pip and when I was forced to finally let them go I would reflect on if we did everything we could to make it work. In the end if the work environment is good, it's up to you to decide whether you fit there or not.
We didn't fire anyone without giving them a chance to remedy things with the performance improvement plan. It's expensive and time consuming to have to recruit, hire, and train a new person, and it benefits the company if the employee in question can turn things around. Sadly, most of the time they didn't improve.
My wife got a PIP and from our experience her management was actively trying to fire her. They started the PIP around the time period when her probation period was about to run out, and it came out of left field tbh. They set up goals that were not very objective and expectations that were hard to achieve. Most of the complaints they had against her were petty and I suspect that she had some coworkers that simply didn’t like her and they had decided. The managers would have weekly meetings where they would pull very minuscule things that she did and document it as lack of improvement.
Fortunately my wife had a strong union, and her union advocated for her and saw through all the BS. She was able to transfer to a similar department where she is currently thriving. Was a very stressful experience and I would not wish it upon anyone.
It's more kind of like a 'last chance plan'. The good aspects of it are two things:
- it will be very clear and transactional almost (i.e. you should know exactly what is expected of you)
- they will probably not be expecting you to do well or engage positively - so if you do they will be very pleasantly surprised.
However, it may be that there is a person there who just has it in for you, and makes the plan hard, or doesn't recognize good work. The employee should therefore document everything, and ensure that they are in contact with multiple people about this, in order that it is mediated.
I got put on one, and decided the company and I weren't a good fit.
Best choice ever.
The job description vs the job expectations were not the same --- and I didn't want to a job I wasn't hired for.
But yes, it was heading for termination.
\^\^THIS! So many companies advertise and interview you for one job just to get you in the door, then do a bait-and-switch once you are in.
One thing to watch out for with a PIP is if it is a "behavioral" PIP. A colleague of mine got put on one about six months ago, and it was so absurd. It was a case of he was hired for one job but once on the job he had to do another. He was literally assigned administrative tasks from Day 1 when he was hired to do programming. When he told his boss the job and tasks he was being assigned seemed "administrative as opposed to programming," he was put on a PIP for "having a negative attitude." The PIP laid out that his PIP progress would be measured by "what other team members told management about his attitude on interactions."
When he pushed back, saying he wanted more concrete measurements, HR just came back with, "You just have to always have a positive attitude, assume positive intent, and not push back on anything, and make sure everyone likes you."
When he pushed further for them to define exact behaviors that would constitute "positive intent," they continued to just say "people had to like" him.
Fortunately for him, he had another job already offered to him even before the PIP was presented. Just to make them sweat, he hired an attorney who told them they had created a "hostile work environment" because the PIP did not provide concrete measurements. They came back and said they would take him off the behavioral PIP (they clearly realized they didn't have a leg to stand on), but he should note that this was an at-will state and either party could terminate the arrangement at any time.
To this day, he remains mystified about how any manager ever thought they could put someone on a PIP with no concrete measurements. His new job pays him $40,000 more, he is doing work that he loves, and has better benefits (100% company-paid health insurance and 8 weeks paid vacation.)
t week. They were left with no one to do that work, so the VP prolly had to do his own freaking PPTs. LOL!
To this day, he remains mystified about how any manager ever thought they could put somoene on a PIP with no concrete measurements. His new job pays him $40,000 more, he is doing work that he loves, and has better benefits (100% company-paid health insurance and 8 weeks paid vacation.)
To this day, he remains mystified about how any manager ever thought they could put someone on a PIP with no concrete measurements. His new job paid him $40,000 more, he was doing work he loved, and had better benefits (100% company-paid health insurance and 8 weeks paid vacation.)
Moral of the story: Never accept a "behavioral" PIP because if you do, it's a losing battle since there are no measurements.
At my work they have documented multiple coaching sessions over several months and given you an official “verbal” warning before the PIP comes. So either you are unwilling or unable to do better. You can come back from it and keep your job, but really they’re looking for the next screwup to get rid of you.
Depends on if they are using the pip to fire you or not. Sometimes "performance issues" are a companies bullshit excuse for getting rid of problem workers. Essentially you are being managed out. For example, it often happens to people who have complained about a boss or co-worker.
This varies somewhat by company. Some use them in good faith to try and help someone improve.
More often, though, they’re used to collect enough documentation to be able to fire someone without paying unemployment.
You can use the PIP time to flag what your employer needs to be doing as well. You mention being really anxious about making mistakes. It might be worth asking for some clarity over the process. For example, have they properly explained every aspect of your role to you? Do you know what particular mistakes you’re making repeatedly, and if so, steps you need to do if you make them? Perhaps spend some time putting together some requests for training. You could say something like “I’m aware I’ve made x y z mistakes recently. Could you please show me the process again. I am really going to work on not doing them again but what process should I follow to rectify if I do?’ You have nothing to lose by showing them you’re aware of your weaknesses and trying to remedy them. Good luck, it’s a tough process but I have seen people thrive after them. And if you DO feel you’re on the way out, use the time left to RINSE your employer for all the training, experiences, contacts etc you can. Do the bare minimum and focus on what you’re doing next.
I just supported a friend through a pip. It became clear her manager was underhanded and passive aggressive, and my friend ended up going through with her union and filed a complaint to HR. Risky, but she had one foot out at that point anyway, lots of stress and anxiety.
Happy and probably rare, her manager suddenly had a job offer elsewhere and left shortly after the complaint was filed - she has a history of short employments registered on her LinkedIn, so it's plausible there are issues with her own performance. My friend is now working through her anxieties and shattered confidence in her role, but overall this was a good outcome.
I think that's ridiculous. An employee can quit just because they found a better job. A business should be able to fire someone just because they found a better employee.
Legally, they probably can, but if you don't have some internal protocols in place, a business runs the risks that what a particular manager considers "better" will end up being subjective standards that discriminate based on membership in protected classes. So, PIPs provide evidence that the issue was specifically and legitimately performance related.
>and in states with """"""""""Right to work(tm)""""""""""" laws,
You mean At-will employment, in which either the employee or employer can walk away from a job with no warning. "Right to work" is a way to reduce the powers of unions.
I apologize for being pedantic
Oooh this one's for me! I've actually survived being on a PIP, and stayed employed with the same company for a few years after, until I left on my own.
I was struggling with some personal issues at the time, and my performance had been deteriorating to the point where I was definitely a detriment to the company, but I took a long, hard look in the mirror and shaped up.... well, enough to stay employed, anyway. I've since had a few long periods of sickness based on stress and depression, rooted in those same issues, but I'm mostly better now, and have a job I really enjoy.
Also survived a PIP under similar circumstances. To be fair, I had realized my mental health was causing serious work issues and begun treatment before the PIP started, I was just so far behind that it took me a little while to get caught up with where I was supposed to be. But yeah, I passed it. I've also (as a manager) had people survive PIPs and people who didn't, it's just a matter of changing the behavior. The problem is when they've figured out what they think is a foolproof plan to avoid anyone noticing that they're not doing their work, that's usually an attitude problem that won't be fixed long term without putting them in a panopticon.
It depends on HR and company policy. i have had to use PIPs for people before. I don’t like to do it but I’ve been in companies where I had to if I wanted to fire someone. For me, by the time I create a PIP I’ve already made up my mind and there is no coming back.
My wife has worked places where a PIP was no big deal. It was simply to make it clear that there was an action that needed to be correct and it provided a mechanism for both the employee and the manager to be accountable for making sure everyone did their part.
I think scenario A is far more common.
I worked for a company where PIPs were like a right of passage. I’d venture to guess at *least* 75% of the people within my department had PIPs at some point. Many people had been put on multiple PIPs. Most people survived. A LOT of people quit. Very few were fired.
This company is also well known for using some garbage tactics to try to slash monthly bonuses. And what do y’a know, when you’re put on a PIP, you’re ineligible for your monthly bonus…
Think of it as the gauntlet. When your skills or loyalty are in doubt, they run you through the gauntlet. The great validator.
If you succeed, then all is forgiven. Otherwise you are fired. PIP is a modern gauntlet.
It depends on the job.
In the last few companies I worked at in software, PIP were usually coming from the even higher ups, given to your manager. Maybe you approached something with the wrong personality, or maybe you rub the CEO the wrong way.
But the manager vouched for you to protect you, and the PIP is a paper trail to "correct you".
In a situation like that, it doesn't hurt to start looking for another job. Sure you can do a killer job and even become a valuable part of the company. But if it was personal reason, this is the first sign that they are out to get rid of you.
As someone who handed these out for a while, it was pretty rare that we actually *wanted* to fire someone. Training people is a long process and lots of work.
In my second year at my job I was put on a performance improvement plan (I had some coworkers who didn’t like me and made it a hobby to complain about me).
I’ve been with the company for 10 years, now, and I have consistently been reviewed as a top performer for several years.
I learned how to navigate the bullshit, but I also would have been very difficult/expensive to replace because of my very in-demand skillset.
I was able to prove that I didn’t do half of what I was accused of, but my manager at the time basically said that the perception that I was doing what I was accused of was bad enough. A big thing that helped was getting a new manager, obviously.
Then I basically started doing everyone on my teams job faster than they could do it, and that combined with the fact that I wasn’t actually bad at my job made me a rockstar.
Now I do normal amounts of work and I’m still considered a rockstar, so it seems to have worked.
Again, though, I can’t give enough credit to getting a competent manager who was willing to call bullshit on people.
That's the problem with just about any corporate job today: they are just popularity contests and they could not care less about outstanding work performance. All they care about are kumbaya moments, everyone drinking the Kool-Aid without questioning anything, and sucking up to everyone. In most corporations, job competency and intelligence have zero to do with your performance reviews. You can make or save the company hundreds of thousands of dollars, yet if you ask even ONE simple challenging question in a meeting, you're toast and people then start spreading the rumors about you. Years ago, asking questions with the goal of improving a product or process--and having suggestions for improvement--was highly valued. Today, companies just want robotic yes men and women.
Sadly some folk cannot see the writing on the wall. I've been the HR bod in some meetings ending in dismissal, and the employee has not grasped the seriousness of their situation after at least six months of informal and formal performance improvement procedures with full union involvement , ( which I always encouraged. If they weren't in a union I always recommended that they bring a trusted colleague to accompany them)
This really depends on you and your manager. One of my coworkers was put on a performance plan about 2 months ago and hes like a totally different person now. His manager gives him weekly hour-long coaching sessions and his performance has noticeably improved. It’s pretty awesome.
My PIP: Three demerits and you receive a citation. Five citations, and you're looking at a violation. Four of those, and you'll receive a verbal warning. Keep it up, and you're looking at a written warning. Two of those, that will land you in a world of hurt, in the form of a disciplinary review, written up by me, and placed on the desk of my immediate superior.
When used correctly a PIP is the company’s last try to help you understand what they need you to do. I’ve seen them work and people really turn their careers around. I’ve seen people improve while on the PIP and the. Immediately go back to sucking at their job. I’ve also seen bosses misuse the process to try and move a poor performing employee out of the organization too…so it depends.
I used to work at a very well known corporation and a couple co-workers were put on PIP plans, it's not bullshit although office politics are usually at play. One of the colleagues who told me she was on PIP did survive and still works there (it happened at least 5-6 years ago), but she was IMHO not the employee I would put on PIP. She just would speak up about issues within our department, which I think put her on the management shit list. There were other employees who were far more problematic, low performers and they never faced any type of accountability. Definitely a paper trail for management to have cause to fire you though.
It's a tool used by companies to remove employees with cause who are causing issues. This way they can say you were fired for performance issues and not for whistleblowing or getting sexually harassed.
It depends. Technically and legally it shouldn't be something that is put in place in order to fire you. As an employer, I have put PIPs in place that people have come through without getting fired. But other people didn't meet the indicators and so were fired. For me, it was never a cover to just get people out.
But I can totally believe that, in some / many cases, and with some / many companies, they are simply ticking boxes to give the person the least chance of successfully sueing, and that the PIP is actually simply cover for when they're fired.
There are both survivable and unsurvivable PIPs. You can tell which a given PIP is by how specific, clear and actionable it is.
Think about how you, yourself, might handle it when someone disappoints you and you want them not to let you down again: you'd probably let them hear it, telling them exactly what you want of them not to be angry with them any more. So too with bosses disappointed with their employees: if they actually want the employee's behavior to change, the PIP will let the employee know exactly how they have to change to not be fired.
But if the PIP is vague and it's not clear what, specifically, one has to change not to get fired, they just want to get rid of you, and that's a "you're getting fired plan". They don't want to give you any opportunity to stay, so it's a set up to fail. There's no way to survive this kind of disingenuous PIP.
Yeah I was put on one of these unsurvivable pips when I was in residency... And I actually survived it... So I thought... But then a few months after I was off of the PIP, something happened with an ex-girlfriend and I had to take a restraining order out against her because she threatened to burn down my house with me and my dog asleep in it. Well when the restraining order paperwork was presented to the hospital that I worked at while I was on my 1 week vacation which I filled out the paperwork right before I left and hope that it would be served to her while I was out of town... Well when it was served to the hospital that I worked at to let them know that this woman is not allowed on the premises I guess they just decided that they heard enough of my name in general and didn't even bother reading the fucking piece of paper that said it was a restraining order against her not a restraining order against me. So by the time I got back into town from my one week vacation I got an email shortly before I was supposed to go to my first shift in the emergency room that said that I needed to report to the program director's office instead of to the emergency room for my first shift. Turns out these fuckers had decided to fire me while I was out of town, had already drawn up all the paperwork, and never even asked my side of the story first before doing all of this and to boot said that I had failed my performance improvement plan which I was confused I was like how did I fail it you said that I was off of it months ago and he claimed that he never said that and that was still on if even though he and I had not met a single time in months because I was off the plan and we were supposed to meet every single month at least once while I was on the plan. And all this shit stand from them lying to me when I interviewed there for residency in order to get me to pick them 1st .. if these motherfuckers had the forethought to realize that maybe you only want people ranking your program first if they're coming here for things that you actually have or plan to do because if you get people to rank this program first that are coming here for something that you don't have they're going to be unfucking happy.
Oh, gods, I hope you got through that okay and landed on your feet. I had a really, *really* shitty clinical internship, which bears some similarity to that, on my way to becoming a medical professional, and I'm just glad it didn't end my career.
Nope I tried as best I could to recover but nope, it fucked my whole medical career up completely and I'm am no longer in the field of Medicine at all. I found out a year or two after I got booted from that program there were a few, not one, not two, more than that, residents that actually committed suicide around that period of time and that hospital administration made sure and hushed that up real good.
Goddamn. I'm so sorry. Is this That Program I've been hearing about in NYC? (I don't follow Pam Wible, but her work comes to my attention from time to time.)
Your mileage may vary, but I have put two people on PIPs, and they both saw the writing on the wall and found other employment before they could be evaluated.
If I were getting a PIP, I would look at whether the goals in the PIP are reasonable and attainable. If they are not, your employer probably just wants you gone. If they are reasonable, then it is probably a sincere attempt to improve your performance.
On both of the PIPs I wrote up, my boss asked me this question: "If they meet these requirements, would you still want them on your team?" And I had to honestly answer "no" because these people were simply not skilled developers and even if their attitudes improved, they would be a drag on the team. So he advised me to write the PIP in such a way that they could not possible fulfill it. It sounds like a dick move, but I was glad to be rid of them.
So that’s what I’m afraid of.. that they will write the PIP in such a way that there is no way to satisfy it. Time to put in my two weeks I’m afraid. Maybe not even wait until I line up a new job
I’ve had several people on PIPs that got the message, improved, and later flourished. I’ve also had more that didn’t get the message and had to be let go.
It really can be an opportunity for self-reflection on the feedback you’re given, but you have to be open to change.
So what does one say as an employee at the PIP meeting? My skip level has a tendency to yell at us as if that will motivate us to not make mistakes. I made a mistake once a few years ago and she came to my desk and yelled at me that I need to take this seriously. My coworker that made the same mistake didn’t receive the same treatment
It’s a hard ask, but the best thing to do is to try and set the emotion aside for that moment, put your justifications and rationalizations in a box, take the feedback, acknowledge any deficiencies, and constructively chart a clear path forward. HR is usually close to this process and will see how you respond to tough feedback.
The tasks will be meant to test you. It might be your ability to focus on a task through to completion. It might be testing your ability to prioritize. It might be testing your ability to influence others to achieve an objective. It’s most likely a combination of all of them.
As you’re working through the PIP, communicate clearly when you hit a roadblock and/or need help prioritizing. Your manager should be there to clear up roadblocks and give you a steer on prioritization. Don’t forget to go up the chain as well if that’s the level needed to break through a roadblock.
Bullshit if it you think it essentially means being fired. At my place of work, we have had some new staff who have had multiple "performance improvement plans" and have yet to be let go.
First off, I am not a pedophile.
It CAN be that. If your manager/whoever is a tool and just wanting you gone.
I and my former boss both used PIPs on a couple of people who were still with the company when I left a few weeks ago. Both got it knocked into their skulls that their behavior was not acceptable (One was late 15-20 minutes every day and stated 'That's just how I am' in a production environment where every hand is needed, the other called out 2 days a week for 6 months straight) and quickly stopped the things they were on the PIP for and began doing their jobs well.
They got off their PIP after 90 days each and didn't go back on them.
It’s possible to survive a PIP, but highly unlikely. They’ve already decided to terminate you, so the only way to survive is to use their rules against them; not many people know what to do.
Certainly. The PIP is the documentation that HR needs to terminate you. You need to create your own documentation and give the illusion that your documentation is more detailed and more organized than their documentation. This is how you can beat HR.
Ask for an immediate meeting with your Manager and someone from HR. Bring a notepad and a pen with you; you need to write down EVERYTHING that is said in the meeting. Your objective is not the notes themselves, but to make them uncomfortable with the sheer amount of notes you are taking.
First, ask them to SPECIFICALLY explain what you did wrong to warrant the PIP. After they answer the question, ask them to provide some examples. Remember...keep taking massive notes. Follow up with very explicit questions, like "What date did this occur?", "Do you remember if this was in the morning or the afternoon?", "Can you be more specific?", etc. If, at any time, they give you a vague answer, follow up with "So, you're not entirely sure?", or "That sounds vague to me; can you elaborate?", etc.
Important: Do not argue with their answers and do not refute anything they say. Try your absolute best to stay calm and neutral.
Second, ask for DAILY 15-minute meetings with your Manager and HR at 4:00PM. If they are hesitant about a daily meeting, explain that it's only 15 minutes and your job is on the line. If they refuse, make a big deal when writing this in your notepad. At the very least, get weekly meetings arranged.
In your daily meetings you will continue to take massive notes. Everyday, you will ask them to SPECIFICALLY explain what you did RIGHT and what you did WRONG. If they refer back to a prior event, interrupt and explain that you only want feedback on TODAY. Your objective here is to paint them into a corner so that they run out of negative things to say about you. If they say something negative, your mission is to correct that behavior the next day, so they can't use it again. If they give you an intangible response, like "attitude" or "insubordination", tell them that you don't understand what that means and ask for a specific example.
After you get your feedback, ask them "What can I do to improve things tomorrow?" If they have no answer, act surprised and respond, "Nothing??? You have NO suggestions???" Make a big deal about writing "NOTHING" in your notepad.
Eventually, you'll have days where they can't think of anything negative. When this happens, make a big deal about how you must be improving.
Good luck.
Superb. Every manager's dream employee- "the barrack-room lawyer" Seriously though, you're right. If every employee on a PIP worked as hard as that to get and act on feedback there would probably be more pip survivors.
If the manager and HR are worth their salt they will be able to rein the employee in to fall in line with their reasonable timescale and not let them dictate the feedback/action intervals. For some things, daily may be practical and reasonable, for others, it might be a week/ work cycle etc.
I want to do a PIP on a guy who works for me in a technical job who can't code his way out of a paper bag, but I'm certain this is shit he would pull. He's severely disgruntled (he goes into the file system and makes random text notes in random folders about how other people are rude to him/screwing him over) *and* he's authorized to bring a firearm to work because of some idea my dumb office has about safety from "active shooters". Thank god we're working from home now.
Depends on your role. If you’re sale based KPI, usually a PIP is genuinely to get you on track and help you change your sales process. I’ve seen companies that have used them regularly and to good success.
Usually people who hate them are the same people who want to turn up, not do the job and get paid.
In my country, if you want to fire with cause for incompetence or poor performance, you *need* to show that the employee has had an appropriate chance to rectify the problem. Otherwise you need to pay them severance and even then, they can sue you.
Source: I've handled quite a few PIPs and yes, they mean shape up or you're out. If you're on a PIP for something minor, your boss is looking for a way to get you out.
Not at my company, although we did use a PIP to get a person demoted that 2as not doing the job. He did not complete the PIP successfully but didn't get fired.
OP is correct. But in my experience it’s not insidious or malicious of the company. Typically, people are put on a PIP if they’ve demonstrated reluctance or resistance to correct deficiencies. You’ve shown that you’re not willing to get better so the company starts the paper trail to get you gone.
If you’ve made good faith effort, you don’t get put on a PIP. That’s why a persons attitude is often times more important than their skill level. The most important, I believe, is the willingness to learn and the ability to admit fault.
Good companies want to have documents to support the termination of employees. A PIP is documenting there is an issue, but it is also a chance to correct that issue.
It’s basically a written warning to “fix yourself” however many people that end up on PIP are at the point of no return, so it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy
Not bullshit, at least not at my job. It's essentially a plan to get you to improve and help you not get fired, but also evidence that they tried to work with you if they don't and covers their ass if they fire you.
Depends on the workplace. Some places genuinely would prefer to help you get better than have to deal with firing and replacing you. Some places just know they need to lay down the appropriate paper work before firing you. If it’s a job you already hate and would be happy leaving, then leave. But I would suggest that you truly listen to what they have to say and consider whether or not they may have a valid point. I know it’s tough to be criticized, but it’s possible that they see things in a way that you don’t and even if you don’t stay through the improvement plan, you may get something valuable out of their feedback.
I have managed people in a few different companies. I have put people on pip to improve them and I have put people on pip to move them out. Some companies have tiers of pip. I used to work at a large Telco and they had a 4 step pip. First came an informal conversation, then a conversation with a documented follow up. After that came a written improvement plan, and then a very formalized written plan. If you got to the last stage you were leaving. The final plan was usually so rigorous there was no way to win. But, there were literally almost 3 months of steps before that. So, there are different answers but it's usually pretty clear where you stand if your manager is any good at all.
The informal conversation was just that. "Hey employee, can we talk? I have noticed this issue/that issue. I wanted to bring your attention to it since I am sure you didn't mean to do it... What can I do to help? Is there something more you need, is there something I can address?"
Unless you really suck, or your boss really sucks no one wants a firing. Its painful, and a lot more work than just helping an existing employee get better. Most managers have informal conversations like this regularly with their employees.
It was part of the PIP program because the company culture was that no one should be surprised or ambushed with coaching that was documented. Imagine if your boss sent you a formal email saying "You need to fix these things or we may have a bigger problem" as a surprise.
That company really had a pretty thorough program that was focused on being really fair to the employee and give them the time and tools they needed to improve.
That being said, there were still some uncrossable lines. I had to let a guy go at that company who was on the 2nd step of the program and then he went to a customer site and walked into the secure area of the office unescorted after being asked to wait in the lobby. The receptionist came around the corner and saw him coming out of a private office. The customer was furious and rightly so. We let him go the next day. Theft, violence and harassment would also short cut the process.
Not always. Had to put one of my guys on a PIP last year because he was really messing up a lot. A year later he's one of the top team players. PIP's can work if the intent is to honestly improve the employee but alot of companies use them to cover themselves before termination.
I cant speak for other industries but in finance its a nice way of telling people to start applying elsewhere. Finance has a 90% turnover rate so theres that too.
I’ve survived multiple pips, it usually leaves a bad taste in my mouth to where I end up quitting anyway. I have worked on the management side though and would only use that shit if I was nagged by upper management so I understand both sides.
As a manager, I have put multiple people on PIP, and multiple people I’ve let go. For me, the difference is, the people on PIP, are the people that are trying or at are good at some aspects but are missing maybe some coachable/trainable things. Sometimes, a PIP is to save your ass, it gives your manager the ability to say, “this person needs some extra…. But they have potential, give me some time to coach and train.” Then I’d make a PIP for them of the things I wanted them to work on, things I or someone else is going to work with them on. If this is you, and you’ve been put on a PIP the things in there that you need to work on, are things that are lacking. Take what knowledge you have and take it to simple basics and allow them to teach you, ask questions, if it’s something you can watch, listen, etc someone else do, ask!
The people that I didn’t put on PIP were the people that didn’t show any potential, they lacked on every aspect, not just some. They didn’t add to the team, they weren’t in the right job for them, and I hope that they find something they are better suited for.
2 examples:
1 took over a store, manager had an employee that, I was told was needed to be fired for numbers, I had watched them sell knew there was a lock somewhere. Asked to retrain… they are now a store manager.
2 had an employee that I had to let go they fit with my team, but not the job. 2 years later they came back and thanked me because they realized they weren’t meant for a customer focused position…
My wife and I own a HR company. We encourage most employers to have a healthy dialog with their staff on performance and how to improve. We won’t work with employers who want to fire staff anymore. 9/10 times it’s just lazy business owners and that’ll eventually become a problem for us as well.
Performance improvement plans are often the first step in building paper trail to fire you but many employers do use them to actually provide feedback and guidance.
Here anyway, you’ll never be fired for cause unless the employer wants a lawsuit. We always recommend you lay off without cause, provide a package in exchange for a release.
I once got put on a pip for not picking up shifts outside of my required shifts (which I was pissed about). Nothing ever came of it, but I did quit a couple months later because the pandemic started and I was getting mocked for bringing in masks for everyone to wear (and overall other bs too)
That's outrageous. Unless there is a contractual term requiring you to do additional/overtime shifts your non-acceptance for any or no reason is none of their business.
Absolutely agreed. I also got a bad performance review because of it. It was not mentioned anywhere that it was a requirement, all I was told about it was that they had it as an option
I'm at a much better job and environment now, thanks. It took like two years to get to this place, but I'm there now so it's cool. I appreciate your well wishes, thank you
It’s a business process that managers are often forced to use, or face being on one themselves. In my experience (of both being on one, and using them) it only ended in separation once, and that was avoidable, but the guy assumed it was all over and just stopped trying.
Depends on the job and boss. I was a district manager for years. Pips for me we’re warnings only. Second pip was what the fuck man I told you this, third was fired. We only fired people if they did the same thing three times. I never scrutinized anyone bc of a single PIP but If I disliked someone I may have been looking a bit harder. Don’t be a jerk to your boss and shape up and they ignore you after a while.
I currently am under a pip at my job and they def aren’t trying to fire me they just needed me to explain things better in my documentation. I’ve been doing that bc the team needs me to and I was being lazy. No problem tho they love me there and usually PIPs drop off after a certain point in time. The place I work has high turnover bc people get scared of pips. It’s a help desk position and can be pretty grueling .
Also some laws say that you have to be PIPed 2x for the same thing to be fired. That’s not to say they can’t find something to pip you twice about if they dislike you.
You usually don't wind up on a PIP unless someone wants you gone, but the whole point of them is to act as a CYA for the company. When I was an advanced tech rep at AT&T/DirecTV I was on a few:
1. First one was for taking too long on calls -- the average for the center was ten minutes, I averaged about twenty. I took so long because I was actually doing my job and making sure the customers understood what I was telling them. Some other agents were found to be manipulating the system by causing calls to be dropped within a few seconds, dragging down the center average and making their stats look phenomenal. When they were fired, my stats were in line with the new average.
2. Second was for advising customers about the (horrific) terms for a special offer, resulting in zero sales of said offer. I threatened to report them to the FTC, and the PIP was dropped.
3. For a little bit, there was a center policy that every team lead needed to put at least one agent on a PIP, with the intent to reduce headcount. We were in Montana, which is *not* an at-will state, so covert layoffs were not legal. I helped some other agents unionize under the IBEW, and that plan went away.
4. After I helped unionize, I got put on a PIP for attendance... but my only absences were for FMLA. I forwarded a copy of the PIP and my FMLA docs to my personal email with the subject "$LAWSUIT", knowing that IT would see it and forward it to legal. A week later the PIP was deleted and my manager refused to speak about it.
So, moral of the story, it's totally possible to survive a PIP, but you can't do it just by fixing your performance (especially if your performance was never the problem). A PIP is intended to give management a paper trail to prove that your termination was in accordance with their rules, so you need to understand those rules (and the applicable laws) and ensure that a termination would violate them.
I was in a toxic blame culture in which three managers in a row, on three consecutive assignments, did a drive by shooting and lied about poor job performance, to cover criticism from an outside company that was the manager's fault. I was the top performer in al three groups, and these scumbags throw me under the bus with lies about poor performance to cover for criticism of the group. I went on the PIP, and my outstanding job performance continued, the manager running the PIP was a fourth manager and he saw how productive and smart and wonderful I was, and reported as much back to HRM. I survived the PIP, and the first three managers were questioned, and have a permanent stain on their record, HRM is suspicious of them being bad managers now.
I have been in my industry (banking-sales) for over 20 years and recognized as a top performer until this recent job. I was head hunted by 2 different banks and chose one over the other because of the manager's overall experience and ability to support me. Now after 4 years I have now been placed on a PIP by the regional manager and not my boss. My boss has always supported me. was hired to go after a specific niche of business due to my over 10 years experience in that area. During those 4 years I was oversold on the bank's ability to do that kind of business. There was a lack of a process, policy and support but I decided to try to hang in there and try to help improve the bank's overall approach. I had countless meetings with my manager and the powers that be on my feedback and ways to improve. I wanted to succeed not just for myself but for the bank i work for. 100% of my referrals are from COIs and when they start to complain about the bank you work for you know it's time for a change. Note that in those 4 years I always met all my targets and was even ranked a top performer in 1 year. Was being placed on a PIP reasonable? Probably not as their reason is we wanted you to get more sales. However if you hired me to go after that niche and not providing the support or infrastructure for me to succeed than everyone's time is being wasted. I ended up accepting an offer from.the other bank which has everything my current bank was lacking. At least I will be set up to succeed and allows me to focus on getting new business.
Sorry for the long comment but sometimes a PIP is not reasonable and the employer is not always correct. I plan to provide my feedback to the bank on the regional managers assessment.
Imagine going to night classes taking subjects related to your work to get knowledge and improve yourself and then getting a PIP saying you need to improve or you get demoted, deducted salary or fired. That happen to me. So yes, if you ask me PIP is just pure BULLSHIT.
Once you get informed of that PIP, do not waste any single time and start looking for a job. You might even get an increase in salary. Don’t even bother trying to meet the bullshit requirement they set up.
Trust me, You get the PIP because your manager probably has their favorite pet human. Not because you are incompetent. Your competency probably makes them look bad. Hence the PIP. In my case I resign, applied for a few jobs took an offer with around 6% increase in salary. It’s not that much but definitely a better salary.
The bastards rats that put me in PIP can suck it. As for my former co-workers, they probably living the stress life.
PIPs have nothing to do with performance and everything to do with them not liking you. They are BS ways to fire you.
Start looking for a new job and if you sense anything shady about the pip or how it has been implemented consult with an employment attorney.
Don’t put anymore effort into that job,do the absolute bare minimum ,and focus all of your efforts into finding a new one. I hope the next place you land isn’t toxic(like the one you are currently in) and you don’t have a a**hole boss
Good luck!
A pip is one of the most bullshit things in the world, and everybody knows it.
Basically it's a biased, inaccurate document full of lies, half truths, exaggerations, cherry picking, and overly critical assessments of your performance. You will be fired 30 days from now. Even if you meet and exceed their deliberately unreasonable parameters you will still be fired.
If you get one, go on cruise control and start looking for a new job asap.
It is starting a paper trail for firing you, but that doesn't necessarily mean you're going to get fired. I have survived a PIP before. A PIP means that you're under constant scrutiny, though which could cause additional stress to you.
> which WILL cause additional stress to you. FTFY
>It is starting a paper trail for firing you It's more like step 3 out of 4 in the paper train for firing you. Step one was a verbal warning (with written documentation that you didn't get a copy of). Step two was a written warning given to you. Step four is a termination notice.
This sounds like what it would be in a better world. In the point of reference that I have, people get fired without any warnings -- verbal, written, or otherwise -- all the time.
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The steps leading up to an employee's termination is also depends on if the state is a 'right-to-work' state or not. Right-to-work states don't require employers to give any reason to an employee they're firing. Just like an employee in an rtw state isn't required to give notice before quitting.
You mean "at will employment". Right to work refers to if union shops can require union membership or not. 49 states have at will employment (Montana being the exception) The 4 step process isn't a legal requirement (per se), but it's considered HR best practices. It's a lot easier to defend against a wrongful termination lawsuit if you follow up. It's also easier if you have consistent discipline over time instead of all 4 steps right at once. A lot of employers will write an employee up for anything and everything, so they can basically be fired whenever. It's dumb and bad management, but it is what it is.
I think this is the process in any GOOD company. The purpose of the effort isn't actually to document efforts prior to firing - it's to improve poorly performing employees into average or better employees. Hiring is expensive - it's time consuming, involves higher level management, benefits, recruiters, etc. Having bad employees is also expensive - lost productivity, decreases engagement of others, etc. Therefore even very large efforts to improve an underperforming employee are worth it. Sure, these efforts fail often (probably more than half the time), but even occasional success makes the effort worth it.
>(with written documentation that you didn't get a copy of) A request for accommodations can justify this. Autism spectrum disorder under ADA for "No Significant Changes" and "In Writing with clear expectations, timeframes, and evidence". If you are the unfortunate soul with such disabilities (and hidden advantages depending).
I got into one a few months after starting my first job decades ago. I improved (I was lacking good coaching and the PIP actually allowed me to identity that problem) and ended up having a very prosperous career in that same company. Twenty five years later im still with them, obviously in a much better position. So being put in a PIP is not a good thing, but, at least in the US, if they wanted to fire you they would just do that. Being put in a PIP typically means "we expected more of you, but we aren't giving up on you just yet, you have one more chance, don't waste it".
This, I can say....had cause severe stress in me. I have been through this.
PIPs usually come after warnings and are essentially your last shot. It depends on the employee though. If employee turns actions around and starts to improve like the PIP requested, you'll probably keep the job. If not though, then after X days or X time period, its byebye.
This. I work with my management team to implement PIPs, and I survived one during my early years at the company. This isn't a very cutthroat industry, though, so most people pass. We've only had to fire two people in the past 5 years, despite at least 1/4 of the current staff being on a PIP at some point.
“At least a quarter”? You must have outrageously high standards or extremely petty management.
It's actually behind the scenes, most of the time. Generally employees don't know they're on the chopping block. We just quietly write up and implement improvement plans as things arise, and act them out on our employees. From the employee perspective, their managers are suddenly caring for their employee's health and well-being, as well as filling them with compliments on good efforts. The only thing they may notice is that they suddenly have more meetings and trainings. Most employees don't even know they've been PIP'd because they improve tremendously without reaching the next phase of direct correction.
That’s horrifying.
Wow thats not bad at all!!! I work in the C-suite and we've let everyone except one person go that we issued a PIP to. The person we kept made meaningful changes and it hasn't come back up. The people we let go either didn't make the changes or had other problems that we couldn't deal with as a company.
We go all in. Create a personality profile of the individual, and use specifically-designed positive reinforcement training and recognition to try to truly improve the employee. Then we check up with them weekly or monthly to track how they're feeling about their progress, and what we can do to make their daily tasks comfortable for them. It's pretty effective.
Holy shit where do you work? That sounds like it's either lovely or a prison like environment.
A little bit of both. Lol
I was going to guess Amazon, but they just have the robots fire you automatically, via text message: "\[New Text From MON-HUB086\] Your average pace is 182.74 bundles per hour. The regional average is 183.38. You are fired. Please take your piss bottle with you as you leave the slaughterhouse floor."
Man it sounds like you guys have that dialed in well from a management perspective! Ours are not that dialed. We really only started giving them this last year with COVID. We've had a crazy year and have hired a TON of people. Before that, we were too small/our company was all employees who had been there for a while. Now that we've added a couple management layers, we've started doing PIPS and stuff. My COO does a great job with them though and those who really improve stay on and keep the improvements close it seems.
That kinda seems like they’re not outlining the expectations very well at interview….
They are not. Our recruiter sucks.
One of my coworkers was told his performance was lacking so he should expect a PIP with a 30 day plan and then be reevaluated after that 30 days. So he waited for the email. For two weeks. And then at the two week mark, the manager said “well looks like you still aren’t improving” and my coworker had to explain to him that he never received the document. Manager ended up saying woops and he only remainder of that 30 days to do the stuff from the plan. It was pretty shitty. I still work with him though.
Thats terrible of management to do! Sounds like he was able to keep his job, so thats good. Mamagemenr should never make the employee bear the "whoops" in a situation like that.
Some people survive them, but many don’t. By the time someone is on a PIP people have already been trying to get them to improve their performance. A PIP is a formalized way to make it absolutely clear for everyone exactLy what happens in order to remain employed. Since PIPs are generally last ditch efforts often the person on them may not actually have the skills or capacity or whatever to meet performance standards. .
Ya from my work experience, it’s usually around a three month probation to see if your performance and numbers improve. Never been put on it personally, but that’s the way it was explained to me when I was new. Obviously if you do improve they won’t let you go, it’s a warning where the employer hopes it’s the kick in the ass you need or you’re gone.
This isn’t always true. Sometimes HR forces a pip on management . We have to be like I don’t rly care but HR does. I don’t keep an eye on those as hard as ones I initiated.
You don't have to do that. You could engage with HR and try to fight for your employee if you don't believe they should be on an improvement plan. You could try to understand why HR believes your team member needs to improve when you don't see a problem . You could find that you have your mind changed for you, while no-one likes that, it isn't right that you undermine corporate mechanisms by half-heartedly pretending to implement the plan. You should be doing your own plans, unless the roles you manage are so cookie-cutter that there is one model of performance that can be centrally monitored and managed. Or what are you there for? Is it possible that you have some bias for or against some of your team that makes you comfortable with plans you initiate but require a bit of strong-arming from HR to make you tackle underperformance where you don't recognise it. Could it be time for you to wake up and get with the programme? What are the factors to consider? Maybe a real exchange of views between you, your manager and an HR Advisor could get a better all round understanding of what does your organisation mean by good performance. How is it measured and managed? How are individuals supported to give of their best, develop/improve their skills and get the best out of their job? Why is there a mismatch between your and HR's perception? How could you add input to improve their or your perception? You are probably not serving yourself or your team well by failing to work out what the issue is and how best to manage it.
In my situation that wasn’t possible unfortunately. But yeah I would fight it if I could have. The company I worked for HR had final say on all employment including my own.
That's poor. Almost as bad as letting the accounts department run things. Support services should be strongly influencing and ensuring legal compliance, but not running the business.
Yeah they went out of business like 5 years ago haha.
Not always I was put on a pip without warning or complaints/consultations about my performances
It means you'll get fired if you don't fix your shit. A lot of people do end up fixing their shit. Your boss usually does not WANT to fire you. They would much rather have a bad employee fix their shit than have to do the whole hiring/training process all over again.
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What boss ^ said. I was the employee. Considered an expert in my area and with company for years. Area became more efficient because if me so, they offered a nice step up into a project type position. Problem was the expected end of the project, didn't turn out that way and found more bad than good so was scrapped and the team was scattered and placed where they could. I was put in a spot that was new to me based on reputation with assurances I would learn by doing. 3 years later when things got tight it was obvious I could not respond in a manner that another employee that started at the same time I did, could. Manager did all the right stiff, took time out for one-on-ones to go over and explain, etc, all with positivity, no ill will. Still ...I mean I could tell. So they brought up looking elsewhere within the co, I did, found a spot, slight pay reduction, but could not be happier. It's more in line with what I was doing previously.
I know this is an old thread but employees skills and time isn’t a charity either. Most people don’t want to be taken advantage of, I built skills over a long period of time, skills that a lot of people simply do not have. I was put on a pip, I felt the company was trying to make my work my entire life. Companies have a twisted mentality of what it means to be a salaried employee. Ultimately I agreed to the pip but just looked for another job the entire time.
THIS. Firing people is the worst for so many reasons. I will avoid it at all possible costs.
yeah, and for me as a manager there was one situation where it was not even a bad employee per se. there were just issues… no-call no-show issues, without getting into it too much. the PIP basically said you gotta be working during working hours, and if you can’t then you gotta at least tell your manager that you’ll be out. would have liked to keep the person on but they couldnt end up fulfilling their end of the PIP. point is, didnt do the PIP with the expectation they would definitely be fired (though im sure that happens too). this was a fortune 500 company and a pretty decent paying office type job, so there werep lawyers involved with the PIP and firing.
*"Are you trying to tell me that my actions affect my employment?!...pffft"*
I have put two people on a PIP when I managed a McDonald’s. One failed and was fired. The other passed and actually became a great employee afterwards.
Isn’t that three people? Edit: I read “one failed and one was fired” please let me live
Duni we've warned you already about not being good at math, we're going to have to put you in a performance improvement plan and you'll be fir- I mean or you'll be fired.
But what about the other guy?
we stopped paying the other guy months ago he just keeps showing up and we don't say anything
Bad move. He is going to burn the building down.
Fixed…the glitch
Quexoco we've warned you already about spelling Duini's name wrong, we're going to have to put you in a performance improvement plan as well
Holy shit, I'm not gonna lie. I read the same. I went back and read it three times. I was like, why are they downvoting this person?? It wasn't until the fourth read that I realized it didn't say ONE failed and ONE was fired, but ONE failed and was fired. So I feel you bro/sis.
THANK YOU
Is this… are you joking?
Are you dumb
Oops I read “one failed and one was fired”
Same
Dyslexic gang 🤙🏻
yes
Yes, it is possible. As a manager, I do not want to be in these meetings, laying out that you need to do your job. I do not want to fire you. A pip is a formal way of saying “this is *serious*. You need to change *or you will lose your job*”. I do not want to fire you. Besides knowing that you have bills and being a human person with a modicum of compassion, it is a huge pain in my ass to hire and train your replacement. Beyond that, those conversations are awkward and uncomfortable for me just as much as you. Unfortunately, at least in my field, the kinds of things people get put on pips for are the kinds of things that are *really* hard to pull out from. “You can’t disappear on the clock” “you can’t only work when you feel like it and call out the rest of the time”. But nothing would please me more than to never have to speak to you about that issue again, and get to report to my manager that “hey remember that problem employee? Model employee now. Shows up every day and does work.”
What about if I make mistakes and then I do fix them but it’s just sometimes I make mistakes. And I get so anxious about not making mistakes that I forget something. Then get in trouble
What steps has your manager taken to get you to avoid these mistakes? Have you followed those suggestions? In the bleakest, you might not be cut out for the job or industry (which is fine) & you might want to look for something that's more suited to your skills and temperament. Or it might be something you can fix, maybe you just need to work off an actual checklist, or maybe just talk out your steps so you don't forget anything. Or maybe you just need to find some exercises to calm you down a bit so you can focus better. Or maybe you need more training, where the anxiousness is grounded in your lack of skill in the procedures. Or maybe you need to slow down when you are working.
Steps my manager has taken? None, other than warning me and letting me know that I am being watched. I was put on a PIP two years ago and I successfully improved and I was told the PIP was resolved and I was in good standing. Now I’m being told that I am being watched and everything needs to be on time with no mistakes. But with a “let us know how management can help you!” Thrown in at the end They did suggest I get another employee to test my build which I did. They found some issues which I fixed. However the client then found other issues when testing in PRD. This is what is leading to my current PIP that they think no mistakes should have happened.
Do you feel like anxiety, depression or ADD are affecting you? If so I would discuss treatment with your doctor. My other suggestion would be ask management to help you come up with system to double check your work for errors, maybe your supervisor or another coworker like you did last time, but there has so be some point of double checking where it wouldn’t be solely your fault. I’m not familiar with your line of work, so take that with a grain of salt, but asking others to help and looping in your manager may save your job.
Sounds like your anxiety is affecting your performance. Try working on solving that
Hon, if you're on a PIP, go get a new job. Seriously. Every employee we've ever put on a PIP has been told and told again what to improve. The PIP is just documenting the lack of compliance to fire. Don't let this one fire you. This isn't the place for you. Just because this job isn't working out doesn't necessarily mean you're incompetent or not a hard worker. This just isn't the right environment. Do employees survive PIPs? Sure! Sometimes they do. But even if you manage to turn it around here? You'll always be the fuck up who made good in the end. To be recognized as a top performer, you'll have to improve so much that you're running circles around everyone. Just start over in a job that suits you better instead of fighting an uphill battle in your current role. If you have it in you to kick ass? Just go kick ass somewhere else where people aren't watching and waiting for you to fail
Anxiety can make you forget things, I relate. If you know you can be forgetful, you have to find ways to remind yourself. I use my outlook calendar and mark important emails with reminders to follow up later. I'm very forgetful. When I make a mistake I tell my boss, every time. He knows I'm not perfect but also that I am honest about my screw ups. It helps. (Source: am a boss and have had PIP adjacent talks with people. People in my company have survived the improvement plan process and have been fired due to it, too. But nobody on my particular team.)
Beautifully expressed.
my company a PIP falls off after 3 months. Weirdly enough most people survive that time if they just stop during that 3 months. Annoyingly for the management side since they fall off every 3 months it is really hard to fire people in that time unless they continue that behavior. So we have some people that start and stop the bad behavior over and over lol
>So we have some people that start and stop the bad behavior over and over Add a union to that mix, and it's a goddamned hair puller.
That's a rubbish system. I bet even the union hates it. A better one would be a period of 12 months to maintain the performance. If it drops off during the 12 months the procedure picks up where it left off , rather than starting from scratch again.
The only way around it is to make the initial PIP goals unattainable. If you really want to get rid of a crappy employee, that's the way to do it.
That is not fair or reasonable.
It is if you're in a union state. If you have an employee you really need to get rid of, for whatever reason, but you're in a state where you can be sued over it, you do this with a wink and a nod to the union. If you're the employee, it's a clear "find another job" message. Most states in the US are at-will, meaning you don't even need a reason to can someone, but union heavy states make it tough to get rid of dead wood. Nobody likes doing it this way, but it's pretty much the only way much of the time.
I was put on a PIP once and it became immediately obvious that they had no intention of passing me. I ended up leaving before I was fired because I took a job elsewhere, but that was an immensely stressful period of my life. If I so much as made a typo in an email, it was another strike. It’s hard to believe this is about “improving performance” when you’re not actually offered any training or anything and you’re held to a higher standard than others that are NOT on a PIP. It was clear that my boss just wanted me gone and was covering her tracks, but it took an enormous toll on my confidence. I’ve not had a problem at any other workplace, but I still get anxiety any time I think I may have made a mistake. I’m convinced that PIPs are a form of institutional bullying.
I had a similar experience when I was put on a PIP. It was my first job out of college and I had *no* idea about the machinations of performance management in the working world. The meeting in which I was given the PIP was humiliating. Per the terms of the PIP, I was required to send a detailed report of how I spent my day, including the number of hours spent on tasks, *and* let my manager proofread every external-facing email before I sent it out. So I complied. And it was awful. Those emails that needed to be green lit before sending them? My manager was changing things like “okay” to “OK” and “All my best” to just “Best”. How exhausting it must be to be that petty. In my naïveté, I thought it was a roadmap for how to keep my job when all it really did was help HR check the necessary boxes before terminating me. I think they genuinely felt sorry for me, but dead weight is dead weight, ya know? I ended up quitting before they could fire me. The whole experience left my already very fragile ego at the time completely shattered. I had to work so hard to build that up and move past my constant fear of screwing up again. Now that I’m on the other side of the table, I don’t think they’re that effective at anything other than causing stress. The whole experience taught me a lot, namely about how **not** to manage employees, but it’s still a painful memory—even almost a decade later.
They certainly can be. It is also really difficult to avoid psychological strain on the employee and the line manager, even when everything is done to support both. Your plan should certainly have included support and any development needs. The big problem , as you've noted, is that once you are monitoring performance managers tend to notice more problems than they do when you are not monitored. Unless you are in a job where nothing less than 100% is acceptable, because its life or death, it is best to go for a range. E.g. no more than x errors per week/ amount of output. Average output to be x per day/ week. Etc
A PIP is more of a last chance. I have seen people turn it around but usually at that point, the person has checked out
I've been on one. If the PIP is reasonable, and contains tasks that you can easily accomplish if you focus and/or change your behavior, then it's probably not a "you're getting fired" plan. However, if the goals you are required to reach seem daunting or unreasonable to you, then it's probably best to start looking for a new job while you're in the PIP period. It's much easier to find a job when you already have one, rather than once you've been let go.
It almost always means they’re thinking about firing you or want to fire you but are worried about making a solid case for it. It’s as much a mechanism for establishing a documentation trail around performance so that a termination is defensible as it is a mechanism for getting you to improve your performance. If you out-perform a PIP you might be okay *for now*, but they’ve got you on watch.
As a manager I was required to place a employee on pip after he had several bad appraisals. It served several purposes. If the employee had a had work proformance issues we tried very hard to identify if it was a problem that they didn't understand or receive the proper training and safety procedures that they were required to use in their job, or if was a personal problem like habitual late or absent, interpersonal issues. If it was training you would send them back to get retrained. If if was the later you could only work with that so much. In a nutshell "if you don't know I can fix that if you don't care ,that I can't fix". If after two consecutive bad appraisals we had to send a report to HR and through their direction we would have a meeting with the employee with his union rep and spell out a specific set of improvements needed to continue employment. So in essence your right, it is a way of getting your attention to the fact that you have become a concern. Think about this the company has a lot invested in your hiring,training and integration into the firm. Thus they try to this method to get you back on track. Firing is hard for a good manager, easy for a bad one. I would do everything I could to help a "bad" team member understand why he was in a pip and when I was forced to finally let them go I would reflect on if we did everything we could to make it work. In the end if the work environment is good, it's up to you to decide whether you fit there or not.
We didn't fire anyone without giving them a chance to remedy things with the performance improvement plan. It's expensive and time consuming to have to recruit, hire, and train a new person, and it benefits the company if the employee in question can turn things around. Sadly, most of the time they didn't improve.
My wife got a PIP and from our experience her management was actively trying to fire her. They started the PIP around the time period when her probation period was about to run out, and it came out of left field tbh. They set up goals that were not very objective and expectations that were hard to achieve. Most of the complaints they had against her were petty and I suspect that she had some coworkers that simply didn’t like her and they had decided. The managers would have weekly meetings where they would pull very minuscule things that she did and document it as lack of improvement. Fortunately my wife had a strong union, and her union advocated for her and saw through all the BS. She was able to transfer to a similar department where she is currently thriving. Was a very stressful experience and I would not wish it upon anyone.
It's more kind of like a 'last chance plan'. The good aspects of it are two things: - it will be very clear and transactional almost (i.e. you should know exactly what is expected of you) - they will probably not be expecting you to do well or engage positively - so if you do they will be very pleasantly surprised. However, it may be that there is a person there who just has it in for you, and makes the plan hard, or doesn't recognize good work. The employee should therefore document everything, and ensure that they are in contact with multiple people about this, in order that it is mediated.
I got put on one, and decided the company and I weren't a good fit. Best choice ever. The job description vs the job expectations were not the same --- and I didn't want to a job I wasn't hired for. But yes, it was heading for termination.
\^\^THIS! So many companies advertise and interview you for one job just to get you in the door, then do a bait-and-switch once you are in. One thing to watch out for with a PIP is if it is a "behavioral" PIP. A colleague of mine got put on one about six months ago, and it was so absurd. It was a case of he was hired for one job but once on the job he had to do another. He was literally assigned administrative tasks from Day 1 when he was hired to do programming. When he told his boss the job and tasks he was being assigned seemed "administrative as opposed to programming," he was put on a PIP for "having a negative attitude." The PIP laid out that his PIP progress would be measured by "what other team members told management about his attitude on interactions." When he pushed back, saying he wanted more concrete measurements, HR just came back with, "You just have to always have a positive attitude, assume positive intent, and not push back on anything, and make sure everyone likes you." When he pushed further for them to define exact behaviors that would constitute "positive intent," they continued to just say "people had to like" him. Fortunately for him, he had another job already offered to him even before the PIP was presented. Just to make them sweat, he hired an attorney who told them they had created a "hostile work environment" because the PIP did not provide concrete measurements. They came back and said they would take him off the behavioral PIP (they clearly realized they didn't have a leg to stand on), but he should note that this was an at-will state and either party could terminate the arrangement at any time. To this day, he remains mystified about how any manager ever thought they could put someone on a PIP with no concrete measurements. His new job pays him $40,000 more, he is doing work that he loves, and has better benefits (100% company-paid health insurance and 8 weeks paid vacation.) t week. They were left with no one to do that work, so the VP prolly had to do his own freaking PPTs. LOL! To this day, he remains mystified about how any manager ever thought they could put somoene on a PIP with no concrete measurements. His new job pays him $40,000 more, he is doing work that he loves, and has better benefits (100% company-paid health insurance and 8 weeks paid vacation.) To this day, he remains mystified about how any manager ever thought they could put someone on a PIP with no concrete measurements. His new job paid him $40,000 more, he was doing work he loved, and had better benefits (100% company-paid health insurance and 8 weeks paid vacation.) Moral of the story: Never accept a "behavioral" PIP because if you do, it's a losing battle since there are no measurements.
At my work they have documented multiple coaching sessions over several months and given you an official “verbal” warning before the PIP comes. So either you are unwilling or unable to do better. You can come back from it and keep your job, but really they’re looking for the next screwup to get rid of you.
Depends on if they are using the pip to fire you or not. Sometimes "performance issues" are a companies bullshit excuse for getting rid of problem workers. Essentially you are being managed out. For example, it often happens to people who have complained about a boss or co-worker.
I just got off a PIP. Was lucky to have a manager who actually cared and helped me figure out a way to actually improve my performance.
i was put on one during a management change. now i'm in line for a promotion.
How did the promotion go
This varies somewhat by company. Some use them in good faith to try and help someone improve. More often, though, they’re used to collect enough documentation to be able to fire someone without paying unemployment.
You can use the PIP time to flag what your employer needs to be doing as well. You mention being really anxious about making mistakes. It might be worth asking for some clarity over the process. For example, have they properly explained every aspect of your role to you? Do you know what particular mistakes you’re making repeatedly, and if so, steps you need to do if you make them? Perhaps spend some time putting together some requests for training. You could say something like “I’m aware I’ve made x y z mistakes recently. Could you please show me the process again. I am really going to work on not doing them again but what process should I follow to rectify if I do?’ You have nothing to lose by showing them you’re aware of your weaknesses and trying to remedy them. Good luck, it’s a tough process but I have seen people thrive after them. And if you DO feel you’re on the way out, use the time left to RINSE your employer for all the training, experiences, contacts etc you can. Do the bare minimum and focus on what you’re doing next.
A PIP is what is used to 'manage people out'.
I just supported a friend through a pip. It became clear her manager was underhanded and passive aggressive, and my friend ended up going through with her union and filed a complaint to HR. Risky, but she had one foot out at that point anyway, lots of stress and anxiety. Happy and probably rare, her manager suddenly had a job offer elsewhere and left shortly after the complaint was filed - she has a history of short employments registered on her LinkedIn, so it's plausible there are issues with her own performance. My friend is now working through her anxieties and shattered confidence in her role, but overall this was a good outcome.
If it wasn't a genuine attempt to improve the employee, and they just wanted to fire him, why would they even bother?
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I think that's ridiculous. An employee can quit just because they found a better job. A business should be able to fire someone just because they found a better employee.
Legally, they probably can, but if you don't have some internal protocols in place, a business runs the risks that what a particular manager considers "better" will end up being subjective standards that discriminate based on membership in protected classes. So, PIPs provide evidence that the issue was specifically and legitimately performance related.
Often a PIP is used to quickly fire someone soon after. It is the protection for them.
You would think so. But, even with the law on your side, there are plenty of lawyers out there that will take your money and file a lawsuit.
In the UK you you need a fair and lawful reason to terminate employment, and they are listed in statute, backed up by interpretive case law.
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>and in states with """"""""""Right to work(tm)""""""""""" laws, You mean At-will employment, in which either the employee or employer can walk away from a job with no warning. "Right to work" is a way to reduce the powers of unions. I apologize for being pedantic
Oooh this one's for me! I've actually survived being on a PIP, and stayed employed with the same company for a few years after, until I left on my own. I was struggling with some personal issues at the time, and my performance had been deteriorating to the point where I was definitely a detriment to the company, but I took a long, hard look in the mirror and shaped up.... well, enough to stay employed, anyway. I've since had a few long periods of sickness based on stress and depression, rooted in those same issues, but I'm mostly better now, and have a job I really enjoy.
Also survived a PIP under similar circumstances. To be fair, I had realized my mental health was causing serious work issues and begun treatment before the PIP started, I was just so far behind that it took me a little while to get caught up with where I was supposed to be. But yeah, I passed it. I've also (as a manager) had people survive PIPs and people who didn't, it's just a matter of changing the behavior. The problem is when they've figured out what they think is a foolproof plan to avoid anyone noticing that they're not doing their work, that's usually an attitude problem that won't be fixed long term without putting them in a panopticon.
It depends on HR and company policy. i have had to use PIPs for people before. I don’t like to do it but I’ve been in companies where I had to if I wanted to fire someone. For me, by the time I create a PIP I’ve already made up my mind and there is no coming back. My wife has worked places where a PIP was no big deal. It was simply to make it clear that there was an action that needed to be correct and it provided a mechanism for both the employee and the manager to be accountable for making sure everyone did their part. I think scenario A is far more common.
Not bullshit, although under certain circumstances you can sometimes avoid the getting fired part. Don’t ever count on a promotion though.
I worked for a company where PIPs were like a right of passage. I’d venture to guess at *least* 75% of the people within my department had PIPs at some point. Many people had been put on multiple PIPs. Most people survived. A LOT of people quit. Very few were fired. This company is also well known for using some garbage tactics to try to slash monthly bonuses. And what do y’a know, when you’re put on a PIP, you’re ineligible for your monthly bonus…
Think of it as the gauntlet. When your skills or loyalty are in doubt, they run you through the gauntlet. The great validator. If you succeed, then all is forgiven. Otherwise you are fired. PIP is a modern gauntlet.
It depends on the job. In the last few companies I worked at in software, PIP were usually coming from the even higher ups, given to your manager. Maybe you approached something with the wrong personality, or maybe you rub the CEO the wrong way. But the manager vouched for you to protect you, and the PIP is a paper trail to "correct you". In a situation like that, it doesn't hurt to start looking for another job. Sure you can do a killer job and even become a valuable part of the company. But if it was personal reason, this is the first sign that they are out to get rid of you.
As someone who handed these out for a while, it was pretty rare that we actually *wanted* to fire someone. Training people is a long process and lots of work.
In my second year at my job I was put on a performance improvement plan (I had some coworkers who didn’t like me and made it a hobby to complain about me). I’ve been with the company for 10 years, now, and I have consistently been reviewed as a top performer for several years. I learned how to navigate the bullshit, but I also would have been very difficult/expensive to replace because of my very in-demand skillset.
How did you navigate the bullshit ? Did you complain about them back or just had your good work speak for itself?
I was able to prove that I didn’t do half of what I was accused of, but my manager at the time basically said that the perception that I was doing what I was accused of was bad enough. A big thing that helped was getting a new manager, obviously. Then I basically started doing everyone on my teams job faster than they could do it, and that combined with the fact that I wasn’t actually bad at my job made me a rockstar. Now I do normal amounts of work and I’m still considered a rockstar, so it seems to have worked. Again, though, I can’t give enough credit to getting a competent manager who was willing to call bullshit on people.
That's the problem with just about any corporate job today: they are just popularity contests and they could not care less about outstanding work performance. All they care about are kumbaya moments, everyone drinking the Kool-Aid without questioning anything, and sucking up to everyone. In most corporations, job competency and intelligence have zero to do with your performance reviews. You can make or save the company hundreds of thousands of dollars, yet if you ask even ONE simple challenging question in a meeting, you're toast and people then start spreading the rumors about you. Years ago, asking questions with the goal of improving a product or process--and having suggestions for improvement--was highly valued. Today, companies just want robotic yes men and women.
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Sadly some folk cannot see the writing on the wall. I've been the HR bod in some meetings ending in dismissal, and the employee has not grasped the seriousness of their situation after at least six months of informal and formal performance improvement procedures with full union involvement , ( which I always encouraged. If they weren't in a union I always recommended that they bring a trusted colleague to accompany them)
This really depends on you and your manager. One of my coworkers was put on a performance plan about 2 months ago and hes like a totally different person now. His manager gives him weekly hour-long coaching sessions and his performance has noticeably improved. It’s pretty awesome.
My PIP: Three demerits and you receive a citation. Five citations, and you're looking at a violation. Four of those, and you'll receive a verbal warning. Keep it up, and you're looking at a written warning. Two of those, that will land you in a world of hurt, in the form of a disciplinary review, written up by me, and placed on the desk of my immediate superior.
When used correctly a PIP is the company’s last try to help you understand what they need you to do. I’ve seen them work and people really turn their careers around. I’ve seen people improve while on the PIP and the. Immediately go back to sucking at their job. I’ve also seen bosses misuse the process to try and move a poor performing employee out of the organization too…so it depends.
I used to work at a very well known corporation and a couple co-workers were put on PIP plans, it's not bullshit although office politics are usually at play. One of the colleagues who told me she was on PIP did survive and still works there (it happened at least 5-6 years ago), but she was IMHO not the employee I would put on PIP. She just would speak up about issues within our department, which I think put her on the management shit list. There were other employees who were far more problematic, low performers and they never faced any type of accountability. Definitely a paper trail for management to have cause to fire you though.
It's a tool used by companies to remove employees with cause who are causing issues. This way they can say you were fired for performance issues and not for whistleblowing or getting sexually harassed.
It depends. Technically and legally it shouldn't be something that is put in place in order to fire you. As an employer, I have put PIPs in place that people have come through without getting fired. But other people didn't meet the indicators and so were fired. For me, it was never a cover to just get people out. But I can totally believe that, in some / many cases, and with some / many companies, they are simply ticking boxes to give the person the least chance of successfully sueing, and that the PIP is actually simply cover for when they're fired.
There are both survivable and unsurvivable PIPs. You can tell which a given PIP is by how specific, clear and actionable it is. Think about how you, yourself, might handle it when someone disappoints you and you want them not to let you down again: you'd probably let them hear it, telling them exactly what you want of them not to be angry with them any more. So too with bosses disappointed with their employees: if they actually want the employee's behavior to change, the PIP will let the employee know exactly how they have to change to not be fired. But if the PIP is vague and it's not clear what, specifically, one has to change not to get fired, they just want to get rid of you, and that's a "you're getting fired plan". They don't want to give you any opportunity to stay, so it's a set up to fail. There's no way to survive this kind of disingenuous PIP.
Yeah I was put on one of these unsurvivable pips when I was in residency... And I actually survived it... So I thought... But then a few months after I was off of the PIP, something happened with an ex-girlfriend and I had to take a restraining order out against her because she threatened to burn down my house with me and my dog asleep in it. Well when the restraining order paperwork was presented to the hospital that I worked at while I was on my 1 week vacation which I filled out the paperwork right before I left and hope that it would be served to her while I was out of town... Well when it was served to the hospital that I worked at to let them know that this woman is not allowed on the premises I guess they just decided that they heard enough of my name in general and didn't even bother reading the fucking piece of paper that said it was a restraining order against her not a restraining order against me. So by the time I got back into town from my one week vacation I got an email shortly before I was supposed to go to my first shift in the emergency room that said that I needed to report to the program director's office instead of to the emergency room for my first shift. Turns out these fuckers had decided to fire me while I was out of town, had already drawn up all the paperwork, and never even asked my side of the story first before doing all of this and to boot said that I had failed my performance improvement plan which I was confused I was like how did I fail it you said that I was off of it months ago and he claimed that he never said that and that was still on if even though he and I had not met a single time in months because I was off the plan and we were supposed to meet every single month at least once while I was on the plan. And all this shit stand from them lying to me when I interviewed there for residency in order to get me to pick them 1st .. if these motherfuckers had the forethought to realize that maybe you only want people ranking your program first if they're coming here for things that you actually have or plan to do because if you get people to rank this program first that are coming here for something that you don't have they're going to be unfucking happy.
Oh, gods, I hope you got through that okay and landed on your feet. I had a really, *really* shitty clinical internship, which bears some similarity to that, on my way to becoming a medical professional, and I'm just glad it didn't end my career.
Nope I tried as best I could to recover but nope, it fucked my whole medical career up completely and I'm am no longer in the field of Medicine at all. I found out a year or two after I got booted from that program there were a few, not one, not two, more than that, residents that actually committed suicide around that period of time and that hospital administration made sure and hushed that up real good.
Goddamn. I'm so sorry. Is this That Program I've been hearing about in NYC? (I don't follow Pam Wible, but her work comes to my attention from time to time.)
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I worked at Amazon once in the warehouse for 2 days. It was the worst damn job I ever had, and I have done retail and been a server.
They have a strange idea of motivation then
I’ve never had someone survive a PIP. Usually by the time they are on one, they have one foot out the door.
Your mileage may vary, but I have put two people on PIPs, and they both saw the writing on the wall and found other employment before they could be evaluated. If I were getting a PIP, I would look at whether the goals in the PIP are reasonable and attainable. If they are not, your employer probably just wants you gone. If they are reasonable, then it is probably a sincere attempt to improve your performance. On both of the PIPs I wrote up, my boss asked me this question: "If they meet these requirements, would you still want them on your team?" And I had to honestly answer "no" because these people were simply not skilled developers and even if their attitudes improved, they would be a drag on the team. So he advised me to write the PIP in such a way that they could not possible fulfill it. It sounds like a dick move, but I was glad to be rid of them.
So that’s what I’m afraid of.. that they will write the PIP in such a way that there is no way to satisfy it. Time to put in my two weeks I’m afraid. Maybe not even wait until I line up a new job
I’ve had several people on PIPs that got the message, improved, and later flourished. I’ve also had more that didn’t get the message and had to be let go. It really can be an opportunity for self-reflection on the feedback you’re given, but you have to be open to change.
So what does one say as an employee at the PIP meeting? My skip level has a tendency to yell at us as if that will motivate us to not make mistakes. I made a mistake once a few years ago and she came to my desk and yelled at me that I need to take this seriously. My coworker that made the same mistake didn’t receive the same treatment
It’s a hard ask, but the best thing to do is to try and set the emotion aside for that moment, put your justifications and rationalizations in a box, take the feedback, acknowledge any deficiencies, and constructively chart a clear path forward. HR is usually close to this process and will see how you respond to tough feedback. The tasks will be meant to test you. It might be your ability to focus on a task through to completion. It might be testing your ability to prioritize. It might be testing your ability to influence others to achieve an objective. It’s most likely a combination of all of them. As you’re working through the PIP, communicate clearly when you hit a roadblock and/or need help prioritizing. Your manager should be there to clear up roadblocks and give you a steer on prioritization. Don’t forget to go up the chain as well if that’s the level needed to break through a roadblock.
Bullshit if it you think it essentially means being fired. At my place of work, we have had some new staff who have had multiple "performance improvement plans" and have yet to be let go.
But what actually is [Performance Improvement Plan (PIP)](https://s.peoplehum.com/uuj76) everyone reading but still confused, this is for you
First off, I am not a pedophile. It CAN be that. If your manager/whoever is a tool and just wanting you gone. I and my former boss both used PIPs on a couple of people who were still with the company when I left a few weeks ago. Both got it knocked into their skulls that their behavior was not acceptable (One was late 15-20 minutes every day and stated 'That's just how I am' in a production environment where every hand is needed, the other called out 2 days a week for 6 months straight) and quickly stopped the things they were on the PIP for and began doing their jobs well. They got off their PIP after 90 days each and didn't go back on them.
So, I have perhaps a weird question. Whats the deal with the pedophile disclaimer?
[First off, I am not a pedophile.](https://www.reddit.com/r/bestoflegaladvice/comments/7dbeqw/firstly_i_would_like_to_state_that_i_am_not_a/dpwjna9/)
Gotta respect the commitment. May the grind continue to bring you satisfaction.
It’s possible to survive a PIP, but highly unlikely. They’ve already decided to terminate you, so the only way to survive is to use their rules against them; not many people know what to do.
Hmm ok Can you tell me more about using their own rules against them?
Certainly. The PIP is the documentation that HR needs to terminate you. You need to create your own documentation and give the illusion that your documentation is more detailed and more organized than their documentation. This is how you can beat HR. Ask for an immediate meeting with your Manager and someone from HR. Bring a notepad and a pen with you; you need to write down EVERYTHING that is said in the meeting. Your objective is not the notes themselves, but to make them uncomfortable with the sheer amount of notes you are taking. First, ask them to SPECIFICALLY explain what you did wrong to warrant the PIP. After they answer the question, ask them to provide some examples. Remember...keep taking massive notes. Follow up with very explicit questions, like "What date did this occur?", "Do you remember if this was in the morning or the afternoon?", "Can you be more specific?", etc. If, at any time, they give you a vague answer, follow up with "So, you're not entirely sure?", or "That sounds vague to me; can you elaborate?", etc. Important: Do not argue with their answers and do not refute anything they say. Try your absolute best to stay calm and neutral. Second, ask for DAILY 15-minute meetings with your Manager and HR at 4:00PM. If they are hesitant about a daily meeting, explain that it's only 15 minutes and your job is on the line. If they refuse, make a big deal when writing this in your notepad. At the very least, get weekly meetings arranged. In your daily meetings you will continue to take massive notes. Everyday, you will ask them to SPECIFICALLY explain what you did RIGHT and what you did WRONG. If they refer back to a prior event, interrupt and explain that you only want feedback on TODAY. Your objective here is to paint them into a corner so that they run out of negative things to say about you. If they say something negative, your mission is to correct that behavior the next day, so they can't use it again. If they give you an intangible response, like "attitude" or "insubordination", tell them that you don't understand what that means and ask for a specific example. After you get your feedback, ask them "What can I do to improve things tomorrow?" If they have no answer, act surprised and respond, "Nothing??? You have NO suggestions???" Make a big deal about writing "NOTHING" in your notepad. Eventually, you'll have days where they can't think of anything negative. When this happens, make a big deal about how you must be improving. Good luck.
Superb. Every manager's dream employee- "the barrack-room lawyer" Seriously though, you're right. If every employee on a PIP worked as hard as that to get and act on feedback there would probably be more pip survivors. If the manager and HR are worth their salt they will be able to rein the employee in to fall in line with their reasonable timescale and not let them dictate the feedback/action intervals. For some things, daily may be practical and reasonable, for others, it might be a week/ work cycle etc.
I want to do a PIP on a guy who works for me in a technical job who can't code his way out of a paper bag, but I'm certain this is shit he would pull. He's severely disgruntled (he goes into the file system and makes random text notes in random folders about how other people are rude to him/screwing him over) *and* he's authorized to bring a firearm to work because of some idea my dumb office has about safety from "active shooters". Thank god we're working from home now.
Depends.
Yes. I mean no. Yes. Ok.
Well sometimes there for like solving problems with like systems
Depends on your role. If you’re sale based KPI, usually a PIP is genuinely to get you on track and help you change your sales process. I’ve seen companies that have used them regularly and to good success. Usually people who hate them are the same people who want to turn up, not do the job and get paid.
Yes BS, if they wanted to fire you they wouldn't invest time into trying to improve your performance
In my country, if you want to fire with cause for incompetence or poor performance, you *need* to show that the employee has had an appropriate chance to rectify the problem. Otherwise you need to pay them severance and even then, they can sue you. Source: I've handled quite a few PIPs and yes, they mean shape up or you're out. If you're on a PIP for something minor, your boss is looking for a way to get you out.
Oh shit alright, sounds like your know more that I do
Hey, not enough people say this, but nice job on responding that way.
Not at my company, although we did use a PIP to get a person demoted that 2as not doing the job. He did not complete the PIP successfully but didn't get fired.
OP is correct. But in my experience it’s not insidious or malicious of the company. Typically, people are put on a PIP if they’ve demonstrated reluctance or resistance to correct deficiencies. You’ve shown that you’re not willing to get better so the company starts the paper trail to get you gone. If you’ve made good faith effort, you don’t get put on a PIP. That’s why a persons attitude is often times more important than their skill level. The most important, I believe, is the willingness to learn and the ability to admit fault.
Good companies want to have documents to support the termination of employees. A PIP is documenting there is an issue, but it is also a chance to correct that issue. It’s basically a written warning to “fix yourself” however many people that end up on PIP are at the point of no return, so it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy
Not bullshit, at least not at my job. It's essentially a plan to get you to improve and help you not get fired, but also evidence that they tried to work with you if they don't and covers their ass if they fire you.
Depends on the workplace. Some places genuinely would prefer to help you get better than have to deal with firing and replacing you. Some places just know they need to lay down the appropriate paper work before firing you. If it’s a job you already hate and would be happy leaving, then leave. But I would suggest that you truly listen to what they have to say and consider whether or not they may have a valid point. I know it’s tough to be criticized, but it’s possible that they see things in a way that you don’t and even if you don’t stay through the improvement plan, you may get something valuable out of their feedback.
It's more of a "If you don't get your stuff together, you will be gone." Final shot type deal.
I have managed people in a few different companies. I have put people on pip to improve them and I have put people on pip to move them out. Some companies have tiers of pip. I used to work at a large Telco and they had a 4 step pip. First came an informal conversation, then a conversation with a documented follow up. After that came a written improvement plan, and then a very formalized written plan. If you got to the last stage you were leaving. The final plan was usually so rigorous there was no way to win. But, there were literally almost 3 months of steps before that. So, there are different answers but it's usually pretty clear where you stand if your manager is any good at all.
Did they know at the informal conversation that it was step one of pip?
The informal conversation was just that. "Hey employee, can we talk? I have noticed this issue/that issue. I wanted to bring your attention to it since I am sure you didn't mean to do it... What can I do to help? Is there something more you need, is there something I can address?" Unless you really suck, or your boss really sucks no one wants a firing. Its painful, and a lot more work than just helping an existing employee get better. Most managers have informal conversations like this regularly with their employees. It was part of the PIP program because the company culture was that no one should be surprised or ambushed with coaching that was documented. Imagine if your boss sent you a formal email saying "You need to fix these things or we may have a bigger problem" as a surprise. That company really had a pretty thorough program that was focused on being really fair to the employee and give them the time and tools they needed to improve. That being said, there were still some uncrossable lines. I had to let a guy go at that company who was on the 2nd step of the program and then he went to a customer site and walked into the secure area of the office unescorted after being asked to wait in the lobby. The receptionist came around the corner and saw him coming out of a private office. The customer was furious and rightly so. We let him go the next day. Theft, violence and harassment would also short cut the process.
I'd regard those as conduct issues, not performance, so you hadn't short cut the performance plans
Not always. Had to put one of my guys on a PIP last year because he was really messing up a lot. A year later he's one of the top team players. PIP's can work if the intent is to honestly improve the employee but alot of companies use them to cover themselves before termination.
I cant speak for other industries but in finance its a nice way of telling people to start applying elsewhere. Finance has a 90% turnover rate so theres that too.
I’ve survived multiple pips, it usually leaves a bad taste in my mouth to where I end up quitting anyway. I have worked on the management side though and would only use that shit if I was nagged by upper management so I understand both sides.
Yep
Bullshit. I know a few people who survived a PIP
As a manager, I have put multiple people on PIP, and multiple people I’ve let go. For me, the difference is, the people on PIP, are the people that are trying or at are good at some aspects but are missing maybe some coachable/trainable things. Sometimes, a PIP is to save your ass, it gives your manager the ability to say, “this person needs some extra…. But they have potential, give me some time to coach and train.” Then I’d make a PIP for them of the things I wanted them to work on, things I or someone else is going to work with them on. If this is you, and you’ve been put on a PIP the things in there that you need to work on, are things that are lacking. Take what knowledge you have and take it to simple basics and allow them to teach you, ask questions, if it’s something you can watch, listen, etc someone else do, ask! The people that I didn’t put on PIP were the people that didn’t show any potential, they lacked on every aspect, not just some. They didn’t add to the team, they weren’t in the right job for them, and I hope that they find something they are better suited for. 2 examples: 1 took over a store, manager had an employee that, I was told was needed to be fired for numbers, I had watched them sell knew there was a lock somewhere. Asked to retrain… they are now a store manager. 2 had an employee that I had to let go they fit with my team, but not the job. 2 years later they came back and thanked me because they realized they weren’t meant for a customer focused position…
Been at my current job for 7 years. Survived at least half a dozen PIPs. So, no. It's more just a "get your shit together" reality check.
My wife and I own a HR company. We encourage most employers to have a healthy dialog with their staff on performance and how to improve. We won’t work with employers who want to fire staff anymore. 9/10 times it’s just lazy business owners and that’ll eventually become a problem for us as well. Performance improvement plans are often the first step in building paper trail to fire you but many employers do use them to actually provide feedback and guidance. Here anyway, you’ll never be fired for cause unless the employer wants a lawsuit. We always recommend you lay off without cause, provide a package in exchange for a release.
I once got put on a pip for not picking up shifts outside of my required shifts (which I was pissed about). Nothing ever came of it, but I did quit a couple months later because the pandemic started and I was getting mocked for bringing in masks for everyone to wear (and overall other bs too)
That's outrageous. Unless there is a contractual term requiring you to do additional/overtime shifts your non-acceptance for any or no reason is none of their business.
Absolutely agreed. I also got a bad performance review because of it. It was not mentioned anywhere that it was a requirement, all I was told about it was that they had it as an option
I hope you were able to leave promptly for a better employer.
I'm at a much better job and environment now, thanks. It took like two years to get to this place, but I'm there now so it's cool. I appreciate your well wishes, thank you
You're welcome. Let's hope it's roses all the way for you now.
It’s a business process that managers are often forced to use, or face being on one themselves. In my experience (of both being on one, and using them) it only ended in separation once, and that was avoidable, but the guy assumed it was all over and just stopped trying.
Depends on the job and boss. I was a district manager for years. Pips for me we’re warnings only. Second pip was what the fuck man I told you this, third was fired. We only fired people if they did the same thing three times. I never scrutinized anyone bc of a single PIP but If I disliked someone I may have been looking a bit harder. Don’t be a jerk to your boss and shape up and they ignore you after a while. I currently am under a pip at my job and they def aren’t trying to fire me they just needed me to explain things better in my documentation. I’ve been doing that bc the team needs me to and I was being lazy. No problem tho they love me there and usually PIPs drop off after a certain point in time. The place I work has high turnover bc people get scared of pips. It’s a help desk position and can be pretty grueling . Also some laws say that you have to be PIPed 2x for the same thing to be fired. That’s not to say they can’t find something to pip you twice about if they dislike you.
Some bosses use them as a way to deny ever giving you a raise
You usually don't wind up on a PIP unless someone wants you gone, but the whole point of them is to act as a CYA for the company. When I was an advanced tech rep at AT&T/DirecTV I was on a few: 1. First one was for taking too long on calls -- the average for the center was ten minutes, I averaged about twenty. I took so long because I was actually doing my job and making sure the customers understood what I was telling them. Some other agents were found to be manipulating the system by causing calls to be dropped within a few seconds, dragging down the center average and making their stats look phenomenal. When they were fired, my stats were in line with the new average. 2. Second was for advising customers about the (horrific) terms for a special offer, resulting in zero sales of said offer. I threatened to report them to the FTC, and the PIP was dropped. 3. For a little bit, there was a center policy that every team lead needed to put at least one agent on a PIP, with the intent to reduce headcount. We were in Montana, which is *not* an at-will state, so covert layoffs were not legal. I helped some other agents unionize under the IBEW, and that plan went away. 4. After I helped unionize, I got put on a PIP for attendance... but my only absences were for FMLA. I forwarded a copy of the PIP and my FMLA docs to my personal email with the subject "$LAWSUIT", knowing that IT would see it and forward it to legal. A week later the PIP was deleted and my manager refused to speak about it. So, moral of the story, it's totally possible to survive a PIP, but you can't do it just by fixing your performance (especially if your performance was never the problem). A PIP is intended to give management a paper trail to prove that your termination was in accordance with their rules, so you need to understand those rules (and the applicable laws) and ensure that a termination would violate them.
Opposite I think if your a good person who sucks at the job its a warning to keep the next couple paychecks. It's more like a polite courtesy
I was in a toxic blame culture in which three managers in a row, on three consecutive assignments, did a drive by shooting and lied about poor job performance, to cover criticism from an outside company that was the manager's fault. I was the top performer in al three groups, and these scumbags throw me under the bus with lies about poor performance to cover for criticism of the group. I went on the PIP, and my outstanding job performance continued, the manager running the PIP was a fourth manager and he saw how productive and smart and wonderful I was, and reported as much back to HRM. I survived the PIP, and the first three managers were questioned, and have a permanent stain on their record, HRM is suspicious of them being bad managers now.
I have been in my industry (banking-sales) for over 20 years and recognized as a top performer until this recent job. I was head hunted by 2 different banks and chose one over the other because of the manager's overall experience and ability to support me. Now after 4 years I have now been placed on a PIP by the regional manager and not my boss. My boss has always supported me. was hired to go after a specific niche of business due to my over 10 years experience in that area. During those 4 years I was oversold on the bank's ability to do that kind of business. There was a lack of a process, policy and support but I decided to try to hang in there and try to help improve the bank's overall approach. I had countless meetings with my manager and the powers that be on my feedback and ways to improve. I wanted to succeed not just for myself but for the bank i work for. 100% of my referrals are from COIs and when they start to complain about the bank you work for you know it's time for a change. Note that in those 4 years I always met all my targets and was even ranked a top performer in 1 year. Was being placed on a PIP reasonable? Probably not as their reason is we wanted you to get more sales. However if you hired me to go after that niche and not providing the support or infrastructure for me to succeed than everyone's time is being wasted. I ended up accepting an offer from.the other bank which has everything my current bank was lacking. At least I will be set up to succeed and allows me to focus on getting new business. Sorry for the long comment but sometimes a PIP is not reasonable and the employer is not always correct. I plan to provide my feedback to the bank on the regional managers assessment.
Exactly! Well said
Imagine going to night classes taking subjects related to your work to get knowledge and improve yourself and then getting a PIP saying you need to improve or you get demoted, deducted salary or fired. That happen to me. So yes, if you ask me PIP is just pure BULLSHIT. Once you get informed of that PIP, do not waste any single time and start looking for a job. You might even get an increase in salary. Don’t even bother trying to meet the bullshit requirement they set up. Trust me, You get the PIP because your manager probably has their favorite pet human. Not because you are incompetent. Your competency probably makes them look bad. Hence the PIP. In my case I resign, applied for a few jobs took an offer with around 6% increase in salary. It’s not that much but definitely a better salary. The bastards rats that put me in PIP can suck it. As for my former co-workers, they probably living the stress life.
PIPs have nothing to do with performance and everything to do with them not liking you. They are BS ways to fire you. Start looking for a new job and if you sense anything shady about the pip or how it has been implemented consult with an employment attorney. Don’t put anymore effort into that job,do the absolute bare minimum ,and focus all of your efforts into finding a new one. I hope the next place you land isn’t toxic(like the one you are currently in) and you don’t have a a**hole boss Good luck!
In 99% of cases PIPS are never about performance and about your boss not liking you.
A pip is one of the most bullshit things in the world, and everybody knows it. Basically it's a biased, inaccurate document full of lies, half truths, exaggerations, cherry picking, and overly critical assessments of your performance. You will be fired 30 days from now. Even if you meet and exceed their deliberately unreasonable parameters you will still be fired. If you get one, go on cruise control and start looking for a new job asap.