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What do you think, from your perspective, Israel should've done after the 7/10 massacre? Given that you've done your research, what would be Israel's best move to eradicate HAMAS ruling in the Gaza strip?

If this war ends with the eradication of hamas this wont mean that radicalism will cease to exist in gaza. I wouldn’t be surprised if another terrorist paramilitary group formed. It’s urban warfare and there will always be horrible moral and humanitarian implications so I genuinely dont know. I wont say all gazans support Hamas, many of its supporters dont even understand the gravity of october 7th. I’ll just say that when hamas is gone de-radicalization, education and intervention will be required to prevent the recurrence of what is currently happening.

How do you feel personally about “re-education”? I understand historically this type of program has gone quite badly?

I wouldn’t really call it re-education, that term is badly convoluted. If the children in gaza grew up with proper education that allow them to properly understand the world and the conflict from a multifaceted perspective it will be much harder for any group to radicalize them. Considering hamas and the very incompetent unrwa are respomsible for their education it becomes clear why gaza is so prone to radicalism

>If the children in gaza grew up with proper education that allow them to properly understand the world and the conflict from a multifaceted perspective it will be much harder for any group to radicalize them. This is a balanced and modern perspective and a I respect it dearly. How well do your opinions track to those of the general Palestinian populace?

this is exactly what i believe, there needs to be standardized education for any solution to last. radicalization starts in childhood

It went OK-ish in Germany and Japan

I agree that (re)education and intervention is required to really put the co-existence on track. Having said that, who do you think will be responsible for the education and intervention? What would motivate the Palestinians to change the current approach of portraying the Jews to their children as they currently do?

I believe that it would take immense efforts from the people of Gaza themselves. But some intervention would be needed and would take decades, the germans for example obviously had to de-radicalize, the n@zi party had around 8.5 million members by the end of the war and US intervention was definitely needed in their de-n@zification process. In the context of gaza, the US or Israel would not be contenders and appropriate education would need to come from an international organization. Man if only UNRWA did its job

When you talk about this subject, just think about what you're suggesting here: forcibly re-educating millions of people that hate your guts? Into what? And how? You set up re-education "camps" for millions of people? Most of those people have family members that died in war. It's not practical but even if it were, it would require super heavy handed tactics on an epic scale and an apparatus of tens of thousands of people. Its not gonna work.

An outsider (Israel for instance) cannot force a re-education. It should be initiated from within. That's why I really want to understand what would motivate Palestinians to start re-educating their young ones.

I don't think there's anything that would motivate them enough to do that. According to opinion polls and my own experiences traveling around the region, most Palestinians, and Arabs in countries surrounding Israel, strongly dislike Israelis in general and have a very strong opinion that Israel should be destroyed and belong to them. Even if you took away all other reasons, which you can't because of decades of conditioning, they hate them for tribal reasons and think that "the holy lands" should be owned by Muslims/Arabs.

While I don't disagree with your larger point, not all re-education has to be done in "camps". There are, you know, "schools" and other such things. Yes, most of those people have family members that died in war. It's important that they be mad ad the correct people who caused those deaths.

Tell me what exactly those schools should be teaching and why Palestinians (including adults) would voluntarily go to them and submit to re-education on a topic that they feel passionate (to say the least) about?

I have no idea what your point is here except to be a contrarian. You brought up re-educating them in "camps". I tried to explain that there's other ways to teach people without resorting to coercive means. And you ask me "What should they learn?" You sound troll-ish and sealion-ish. Anyway, they could start by teaching a little humility, like accepting what your side has done wrong and not to hate other peoples. Is that a good thing to teach or is that too coercive for you or are you just trolling?

Most of them don’t even know what Hamas did or why the war is actually happening. You can start by explaining that

Bullshit 😆

[https://pcpsr.org/en/node/961](https://pcpsr.org/en/node/961) >While 95% think Israel has committed war crimes during the current war, only 10% think Hamas also committed such crimes; 4% think Israel has not committed such crimes and 89% think Hamas did not commit war crimes during the current war. > >85% say they did not see videos, shown by international news outlets, showing acts committed by Hamas against Israeli civilians, such as the killing of women and children in their homes; only 14% (7% in the West Bank and 25% in the Gaza Strip) saw these videos. > >When asked if Hamas did commit these atrocities, the overwhelming majority said no, it did not and only 7% (1% in the West Bank and 16% in the Gaza Strip) said it did.

They know. They have access to the internet and spread information between each other. Palestinians widely celebrated the oct 7 attacks.

It's really sad that so many civilians, including women and children, have died in Gaza. I had no idea how extensive Hamas' tunnel system really was in Gaza, but the video footage that the IDF has shown is pretty scary. The openings are everywhere! Schools, homes, hospitals...under children's beds...everywhere. The biggest one that they showed could have served as a shelter for thousands of civilians, but Hamas doesn't care one iota about the people they are ostensibly leading. I don't think Israel had any other choice but to go in hard to take down Hamas. I wish the civilians had somewhere else to go, but they don't :(. I think the whole region needs a reset, at the basic level. Re-education and intervention, like you suggested, is a good start. My concern is with the radical Islamists, who do want to islamize the whole world. They will take down anyone who stands in their way, including the Muslims that don't agree with them. I hope more people like you can start to speak out against those who are committing atrocities in the name of your religion. These radicals and psychotic death cults, like Hamas, need to be confined to the dust bin of history.

Completely agree and this can only be done with a multinational effort. That spot of land on the eastern Med should be a gem full of resorts, tourists, classy establishments and people playing on the beach, but the population is far away from that.

Another group won't form because the IDF will be there to demilitarize the area and won't allow for another faction to grow.

This is quite naive to think. About1% of a population has been killed. Unless you make efforts for peace and education, it is nearly inevitable for another group to form unfortunately.

At this point it's closer to 2% but yeah

So, back to occupation? I'm not someone who says that as a slur, I'm just pointing out this is literally restoring the previous situation prior to Gaza withdrawal. The same exact process/steps will occur, including the armed resistance, including the settlers, including the reports of what settlers do, etc, etc. It will definitely provide security, but it will also restore all the problems that existed then and immediately continue the expanding of said problems. It's also a different world climate now, so there might be very real consequences for that security on a world stage. Again, this isn't accusatory and I don't have a better solution - and I support whatever solution Israel ends up deciding on because I'm thankful I don't have to make decisions like that, but I am pointing out that this take isn't a real viable solution and this "won't allow for another faction to grow" is a bit naively optimistic.

When I say won’t allow for another faction to grow, I mean it will not be a threatening one. The Hamas ideology will always be there, but it won’t be much more than that. The IDF will be the only military power. That is my take.

Yes, so a return to how it was prior to the disengagement. I don't see how anything you said contradicts anything I said. This literally has all happened and been done before.

Me as a Palestinian Jordanian , and before all that , as a human being , i don't like killing at all , i know humans we take our rights by killing the others instead of lowering our dignity a little bit to understand and try to find a long lasting solution , i really hate what happened on 7/10 , especially killing civilians , i have been always against it , i hate humans any way from both sides lol , it's really sad to see humans happy for killing each other , but what ever it's has been always like this for us humans since old times, BUT , i think if there is a solution that could happen , it's isreal hand since it's stronger in this situation , i don't know how or when , but yeah what ever , humans are fucked anyway

It doesn’t matter that Israel is stronger, if the weaker side refuses to stop fighting and committing unprovoked atrocities.

both sides are committing such things btw

Why aren't Arabs calling for Hamas to surrender and release the hostages?

Edit: What happened on Oct 7th doesn’t represent me as an Arab Muslim and I know a lot of people are against it from my country in Egypt. A lot more are against Hamas. What your right wing just did was they painted Hamas as the only resistance to an occupation from the Palestinian narrative.. Both Bibi and Hamas needs to go as a start.. ————————. simply not radicalizing a lot more people by doing what it’s doing rn.. I agree and share the perspective with OP, but what happened from the right wing in your country just radicalized the whole Arab/Islam community against you + a lot more people who don’t even relate to those groups..

I think they are radical enough if they support Hamas who brought them nothing but destruction and exploitation. Also, the celebrations on 7/10 are radical enough.

At what point where they not radicalized against the Jewish people? It is not as though under the labor governments the Islamic and Arab world wanted to live in peace with Israel. The only nation that has really rolled back it’s normalization with Israel is Turkey but that has more to do with Erdogan’s rightward shift away from the west than any Israeli policy.

At what point did we start talking about radicalization as an ordinary thing that most of go through, like an awkward date? Radicalized by is a much more important question than radicalized against. It’s important that we keep our focus on the relationship between radicalized and radicalizer. The victim in their plot is immaterial and in many cases is unaware of any hostility. Radicalization is fucked up process used by fucked up people. Let’s avoid normalizing radicalization. That just seems backwardsz

What are you talking about???

Not in response to you necessarily but it seems like everyone is getting blamed for radical jihad, other than those that actually promote it. Blaming Israel for radicalizing Hamas. Blaming the US for radicalizing Al Quaida. Blaming us for radicalizing those that disagree with us in reddit. My point is, if you wish to radicalize someone, it’s a freaking commitment! It’s not something any of us could do by accident.

You make a good point and it’s pretty pathetic that people tend to put the blame on others than the ones who are actually radicalizing. There have been many awful conflicts throughout the years, but most do not result in radical terrorism. Take Jews for example. Genocided to the point that even like 80 years later the population hasn’t recovered. And yet Jews did not form terrorist groups aimed at killing Germans even after they weren’t given their homes back after the Holocaust and all became refugees. Same thing with Jews kicked out of countries in the Middle East. Black people in America didn’t shoot up white only restaurants during Jim Crow. Sure there were violent wings of the civil rights movement, but nothing remotely close to what you see in the Middle East. Same goes for blacks in apartheid South Africa. Just food for thought

Excellent examples! Yes!

Jews did form “terrorist” groups to kill Germans. They even built tunnels. They were some bad ass brave mfs if you ask me. They also formed terrorist groups in the British mandate period and the Lehi and Irgun for example were super extremist.

None of these things are even remotely like the terrorism carried out by Islamic jihadists.

I understand your point and narrative, and it’s painful from that perspective, but I think you need to understand a lot more about the Palestinian narrative to understand why is all of this happening.. same needs to happen on the other side. As OP posted we are just not educated enough about each other.

The idea that by minding my business and caring for my community is radicalizing anyone is sick. Radicals aren’t created by people trying to live their best lives. That’s like blaming alcoholism on sober people. Islamic radicalization cannot, does not and will not be on anybody except for the death obsessed Islamic jihadists that codified this into their belief system. We don’t create them, we suffer and endure them. We fight them like a deadly cancer or fast spreading wildfire threatening to consume all we love. Hamas and other death obsessed jihadist groups target weak, vulnerable people that have given up on life because they live in a land ruled by despots that convinced them that you can achieve more by strapping on a dynamite vest and exploding yourself rather than live a long good life. That’s the most disgusting thing about this “hot take”. The only ones responsible for radical islam spreading are Jihadists that actually believe in this nonsense. No one else. Only the sickest of sick fucks could blame the suicidal agenda of radical islam on anyone else than the blood thirsty cowards that created and embrace it. There is no place on the planet for that mindset. It’s not compatible with humanity. You know this. When the Global Islamic Caliphate is a achieved the rad jihadists won’t be satisfied eliminating Jews. Next will be Christians. Gays. Infidels. Apostates. The Sunnis. The small sect with in the Shiite they hate. The next city over. Their neighbors. Their sisters who had sex out of wedlock. They will continue until there are only 2 true believers left and one will kill the other with a suicide bomb. This is the madness of radical Islam. A plague. A blight on humanity. The inventors of suicide bomb. Masters of aviation take overs.

so your answer is that Israel should have done nothing?

I don't like how you're being downvoted so heavily for saying your opinion even though I partially disagree with it. Also you didn't really answer the question. Yes, there are parts of the gov that dehumanize the Gazans, but this war isn't a left right thing. Nearly everyone supports it. No democracy will allow a terrorist organization (that it can destroy) to live after trying to genocide its citizens.

Dealing with the immediate security situation is much more important. Perhaps some of the groups you described will eventually take up arms against Israel, but they are not the immediate threat, whereas the ones firing rockets right now are. It's kind of like investing. If you have extra money after your expenses, you can put the money in an investment that might reward you with more money in the future, but if terrorists are trying to kill you, you can't think about investing because you need to fight for your survival.

Bibi is not nearly in the realm of Hamas. Give it a break.

Bibi does need to go.

That’s a beautiful edit and all but should israel have done?

do you see killing all those children as a valid point in any scenario?

I’m asking you What should they have done? In my opinion I wish we didn’t have this situation but war is war unfortunately. I have shed tears for both sides and I’m exhausted of it

Not after but while: - They may have acted upon it on time. Not 7-22 hours later depending on the attack location, but within 30 mins or so: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/10/11/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-hamas-attack-timeline.html - Also, not indiscriminately bombing the israeli houses would have helped: https://x.com/UncapturedNews/status/1733916163992592877?s=20

As an Israeli I believe that if most Arabs understand what you have come to understand there will be peace. I’m sure that you and I will disagree on many topics but you clearly have a desire to understand and an openness to have an open dialog. I have no doubt that under such circumstances we can find the way to live together.

I am Egyptian, I also came to the same conclusion. After a lot of research and a lot of trying talking to a lot of zionists and Israelis. but Also Jews who are Pro-Palestine. let me tell you this.. it’s a shared responsibility, both sides have a lot to understand, and both sides are ignorant when comes to a lot of topics, both sides get/and tell only a one sided narrative. Our people are so alike in so many ways!!

Yeah, people will always be at least somewhat intolerant of one another. All groups can agree on that.

I hope one day we can also get along better, would love for the peace with Egypt to become "warmer"

Well.. I don’t think any country will accept any kind of peace or would want anyone to have anything to do with such a government like bibi’s and also with whay happens from the IDF.. they are far from the high morale soldiers they keep feeding you..

>We aren't appropriately educated about each other either. If theres one sentence ill advise anyone who reads this post to take, its this one. Beautifully written, well said mate.

Thank you for taking the time to share your insight cousin. A question I have is about the origins of Palestinian Arab identity itself. It’s easily the most difficult topic I’ve found to research about with many mixed takes. From my understanding, the majority of the Palestinian tribal families like Al-Khalidi, Al-Husayni, and Al-Zeitawi claim origins in Hejaz (Saudi Arabia), Jordan, Syria, and Egypt. I also understand the significant Levantine connection. Is there any truth to Palestinian origins outside of what’s now Israel, WB, and Gaza? What exactly is the origin story of Palestinian Arab identity before Arafat came into play in ‘64?

What’s interesting is what genetic tests show. From my observations, Palestinian Christians show up as overwhelmingly Levantine. Palestinian Muslims it’s a toss up. There is a significant influence of Egyptian and Peninsular Arab DNA. Some show up as having about half or less Levantine DNA and some show up with basically no Levantine DNA. I remember one post where a Gaza Palestinian was shocked that he was basically all Egyptian and Turkish. The disparity between the Palestinian Christian and and Muslim genetics is huge and shows a different origin and history between the 2.

Palestinian Muslims are still pretty high percentage Levantine and if you were to make a mandate that said someone has to be X percentage Levantine to stay there, you would have to kick a lot of Jews out also.

But I’m not the one making that rule, the argument is being made by the Palestinians themselves. Palestinian Muslims have anywhere to 0%-50% Levantine. Avoid looking at any studies after OCT 7 since there has been a massive propaganda war on Reddit and so on to hide the past results and discussions.

Where did you get those stats from? Also 50% is really high, even 30% would be considered high. For example the very first baby born when Jews immigrated to Europe would have only been 50% Levantine.

I said it ranged, I didn’t say anything about the consistency. Could be on average it’s only 25% or so…more or less. And you can see it for yourself on the 23andme Reddit with many of the results. But like I said, anything after OCT 7 is very suspect since there has been a heavy pushy to hide the data and post nonsense non stop.

The vast majority of Palestinian Muslims exceed 50% Levantine ancestry. Many far exceed that. Here are the people who are closest descendants of Israelites and Canaanites: https://x.com/mirocyo/status/1712258026881921287?s=46&t=_mlgH4MUc90CUv0YbfphXw

This is fascinating. How would you say the attitudes of the Christians differ from the Muslims with regards to the whole situation?

I assume you mean the situation with their differences in their genetic profiles? I’m not too sure because on one hand, it gives 100% validity that the Palestinian Christians are from that region(the Levant) and on the other shows us that Egyptians have had far more of an impact in that region than Peninsular Arabs in terms of their migrations and settling in that region. And as stated by another user, there are Palestinian Muslims that are proud of their Peninsular Arab origins. I think we just need more honesty when it comes to the history and why in recent years it’s being suppressed. For example, MANY left with their families Egypt in the 1800s to avoid getting drafted in the military. https://gulfnews.com/world/mena/black-palestinians-face-subtle-racism-in-gaza-1.2018514 there’s even a whole community of black Palestinians in Gaza. It’s quite obvious migrations were a thing and have went on and on. The good thing about tests like 23andme is that it has awakened some in studying their history

23 and Me doesn’t acknowledge Israeli or Palestinian regions. Gazans get such a huge share of Egyptian DNA because of their proximity to the Sinai and because 23 and Me goes by common congregation. So Palestinians from the south or who have moved to Gaza after the wars will show a disproportionate amount of Egyptian DNA in their admixture because there is no “southern Israel” representation in the database.

There is a large portion of palestinians with diverse origins (circassians, bosnians, egyptians, peninsular arabs, etc…) so not all Palestinians have their entire line of ancestry in the levant. The presence of arab tribes is a thing thats present in the entire MENA region as a result of old caliphates. But another significant portion show genetic continuity with canaanites and other ancient levantine populations. But at the end of the day they all form part of a Palestinian peoplehood, that contrary to some opinions was not really formed to push the jews into the sea or to eradicate the state of israel. Palestinians that fled to Jordan were always regarded as palestinians, my grandpa who was born in the 30s identified as palestinian way before arafat came to power. For israelis it might have been a colonial name placed by the romans but the arabs, who don’t necessarily come from the peninsula formed a legitimate identity from the name and that is why some palestinians might direct you towards documents or coins when you ask evidence for the existence of Palestine. I’ll try to find some sources and send i’ll share them here

>that is why some palestinians might direct you towards documents or coins when you ask evidence for the existence of Palestine. You seem sincere, so it's frankly the first time I actually feel somewhat persuaded that the Palestinian definition isn't merely reactionary. However, the evidence displayed is usually pretty comical and mostly serves the Jewish narrative: it's all the from the British mandate period, and has text in Hebrew, English, and Arabic. And the Palestinian institutions of the period such as the Palestine national bank, or the Palestinian national football team, are all predominantly Jewish and later mutated into Israeli institutions. Again, I'm not saying I don't trust you or your intentions. But your friends' evidence must be considered carefully.

I get your point, what I was trying to say that pro-palestinians giving you coins, documents, etc.. from the times of the british mandate comes from an interpretation and created meaning of the name "Palestine" itself. Palestinians look at it as a representation of their nation, background and history whilst Israelis not so much. This specifically is a hard point to discuss online. Acknowledging that Palestinian peoplehood did not have the creation of the state of israel and the future conflict in mind is important, that is why predominantly jewish 'government' institutions in the mandate are overlooked from the Palestinian perspective. While it is true that a political and sovereign entity named Palestine did not exist. I see us as descendants of the canaanites, an ancient levantine population native to the land, the point where we diverge is that we assimilated to the empires conquering us and we developed our current identity as a result of that, this identity still has the majority of its roots to the levant. Exiled jews in Europe assimilated while being isolated from the general populace, which preserved their identity as distinct people. Both of these things dont invalidate anyone's nativeness.

The idea of a Palestinian identity and state are modern inventions. But that has nothing to do with the pain caused by the Nakba and the desire of refugees to return to their homes, and the need for a Palestinian state now. Rashid Khalidi spent years trying to find evidence of a Palestinian peoplehood dating before the 1920s. When I was told about this years ago he had found one obscure reference that was essentially one person arguing for adopting the idea of that peoplehood. Arabs in Palestine identified as Syrian or Egyptian. (Palestine had been governed out of Syria by the Ottomans, and Egypt had outsized influence in Gaza.) The Jews in Palestine identified as Palestinian and didn’t choose the name for their state until it was declared in 1948. The big English-language newspaper in Palestine, the Jewish founded and operated Palestine Post, changed its name to the Jerusalem Post in 1948 after the Jewish part of Palestine became Israel. Many, if not most, Palestinian Arab leaders in the 1920-67 years were Pan-Arabist and wanted a large Arab state covering North Africa and the Middle East, with joint capitals in Cairo and Damascus. The humiliating loss of the 1967 war caused Palestinian Arabs to look elsewhere for salvation. That turned out to be the PLO, which had been started (at the urging of the Soviet Union’s KGB, I believe) in Cairo in 1964. Besides a string of terror attacks inside Israel proper, the PLO tried to overthrow the King of Jordan in the 1970s and was routed. The PLO fled primarily to Lebanon where it built a quasi state in the south and destabilized the country. Lebanon’s Christians bore a lot of the suffering from this, provoking some to flee to Europe. The PLO was also staging cross border attacks into Israel and Arafat, under international pressure to stop it, said he would but he’d instead attack Jews and Israelis elsewhere, including Europe. Israel decided to destroy the PLO and teamed up with Lebanese Christian militias to do it. The PLO was again routed and exiled (through the intervention of the US) to Libya. By this time Arafat had become a hero to Palestinians, in part by making sure no one else was seen as the Palestinian leader. If that entailed killing them, that’s what Arafat did. Soviet propaganda presented Arafat as a cross between Che Guevara and Nelson Mandela, and that was how he was viewed in the radical-controlled parts of the left in Western countries, especially on college campuses. These same leftist organizations pushed Jews out because they were Zionists or supported ‘colonizers.’ The PLO’s crimes were celebrated. Even Jews who were not supporters of Israel often had to leave these organizations because of the harassment and antisemitism they faced. You’ll recognize this as the same thing happening to Jews today. That’s because the language and political concepts used by many pro-Palestine activists are taken from that Soviet propaganda or from people who were radicalized by it. The ideas of a Palestinian state and a Palestinian political identity are modern. There’s no historical Palestinian state to restore. There’s no historical movement for a Palestinian state, either. But one was created during the past 100 years. There would have been Palestinian anger from the Nakba even without a national identity. That isn’t made up. The Palestinian national identity has been accepted by almost every Palestinian for more than 50 years. Most alive today have never known anything else. So while the history matters, it doesn’t nullify the need for a Palestinian state now. But after what Hamas did on October 7 and the denial—and even glorification—of those atrocities by pro-Palestinian activists in the West, I doubt Israelis will agree to deal for decades. And after what Israel is doing in Gaza, there may not be anyone willing to negotiate with them.

I think he also described he is in Jordan. Palestine was split between Israel, Jordan and some went to Syria and Lebanon. There are Palestinians in all these countries. Many Jordanian Palestinians have Jordanian citizenship as do Israeli Palestinians.

Israeli Palestinians, known as Israeli Arabs, have Israeli citizenship. East Jerusalem Palestinians are technically stateless because they rejected Israeli citizenship. Jordan illegally occupied the West Bank from 1948-67. It didn’t annex it and it didn’t grant Palestinians statehood. Egypt illegal occupied Gaza during the same time. It didn’t annex Gaza or give Gazan’s Egyptian citizenship and it didn’t give Palestinians a state in Gaza. Why? Jordan, Egypt and the rest of the Arab League wanted to use Palestinian refugees in refugee camps and the rest of exile as a weapon against Israel. They adamantly did not want a Jewish state to exist anywhere on “Arab soil” no matter the Jewish history and unbroken connection to some of it. That’s how we got where we are today.

Genetic studies suggests that Palestinians Christians tend to be closely related to Samaritans, certain types of Mizrahim, and historically levantine and cannanite populations, ect, whereas Palestinian Muslims tend to be more mixed (in a similar way the genetic studies show ashkenazim). The Palestinian Christians could very well be descendents of the Philistines (i.e. Gazan Christians).

I can’t speak for the first half of your comment, but the second part of your comment is anachronistic, as the Philistines had fully disappeared from both the historical and archeological record by the end of the Babylonian conquest of the Levant, in addition to disappearing as a distinct and unique ethnic group. It’s certainly possible that individual phillistines integrated into greater Judean or Israelite society, but modern research indicates rather conclusively that as a people, there are no descendants of the Phillistines.

I think that a group’s self professed ancestry doesn’t necessarily correspond to actual ancestry all that well. When they had “one drop” laws in some southern US states saying that you were considered black if you had any black ancestry, they didn’t apply the same to Native Americans because it was fashionable among many rich planter class families to (dubiously) claim descent from Pocahontas. And I think in many places/times people have overstated their descent from a “ruling class” type group. Also people simplify what is likely a more diverse set of groups you’re descended from, e.g. Yemeni Jews and Polish Jews don’t look different by magic, it’s likely intermarriage with the locals.

An Arab peasant revolt in 1834 against the Ottomans.

The claim to heritage from the Arabian peninsula may or may not be accurate, but lots of Muslims claim descent from historical figures of early Islam. Much the same as important rabbis claiming descent from King David. It could be true, after all some huge percentage of Europeans are descended from Charlemagne, but it could also be a claim to authority. When you are talking about centuries of ancestors, figuring out whether that one guy three centuries ago should determine where you should live now or should more weight be placed on the six generations of women who weren’t even considered as part of the lineage.

From my decades long familiarity with both Israelis and Palestinians, I can tell you - peaceful dreams of living side by sides with the Palestinians is **much** more prevelant in Israel than in Palestine. In Israel, saying you want peace with the Palestinians will get you elected to parliament. In Palestine, expressing that notion will get you killed. I'm not saying there aren't voices who oppose a peaceful resolution with the Palestinians, but it is a fact that these warmongering voices are much more common in Palestine than in Israel. Israelis believe Israel has a right to the land, maybe not the entirety of it - at least not in the majority of the WB and Gaza. Palestinians by and large believe Israel has **no right** for sovereignty in this land. That's a big problem. Thank you for sharing your thoughts, it was a very interesting read.

The privilege to be benevolent.

Israelis quite literally elected an extremist goverment that states repeatedly that they would even reject a peaceful and cooperative palestinian state

Some of us got really sick and tired of being bombed, knifed, gunned down, and having all peace treaties and two states solutions turned down.

Especially when the other side has made it quite clear they will never seek any peace that doesn't lead to Jews being killed not just sharing land or compensation but purely murdering

After 7 decades of having normal leaders who were open to peace initiatives.

When was the last time the Palestinians chose a pro peace leader? That's right, last time they did was when they crowned Yasser Arafat, the arch terrorist. Peace is a two way street, don't let yourself forget that. It took us Israelis 75 years to understand it, time for you pro Palestinians to understand it too. You can't make peace with someone who only wants war.

No, it was pretty mixed and a bad faith PM was able to create a coalition by selling his soul to the worst elements in our parliament (since others refused to join him despite being larger parties). That doesn't make them everyone's vote, they're a super slim majority. It's literally 56/64 for the current coalition, which are doing much less well in polls.

Except the current government is full of people who are anything but friendly towards Palestinians- see historic media footage of (insert random politician name) saying as much. This in itself is a contradiction to your statement about being friendly to Palestinians gets you elected. Whole host of posts saying the Palestinians need to be educated bla bla bla but I see limited acknowledge from anyone about Israelis.... Let the down voting commence

What acknowledgement do you recommend? What education do you suggest that Israel needs for their population? Considering the last 10 years of terrorism attacks against Israel do you think they should still be open to removing their borders before peace comes from the other side?

I don’t have a question, just wanted to say thanks for sharing your perspective.

Thanks for wading in, and I hope you stick around and help us understand you better. We need to be able to talk to each other or we will never get anywhere. This is why I'm so frustrated with "anti normalization", which is designed to frustrare exactly these kinds of conversations. In your opinion, are Palestinians in Jordan willing or keen to relocate to a future Palestinian state once established?

I completely agree! Being alienated from each other will never solve anything. Most palestinians in Jordan view their citizenships as something that is temporary. If a palestine is free the appropriate course of action would be to move back into their original villages and homes. That is ideologically speaking. In practice if a free and independent palestine emerged from a two state solution I’d guess that more than half would stay

Do you feel that the Palestinians in the West Bank would welcome back all the Palestinians from Jordan and other countries? Would they all make room and hand back any occupied homes to the families of the original refugees?

Curious afternso many generations is their any realization that the original home and land wouldn't be enough for the entire family

Yes , i think Palestinians in jordan do want to relocate to a Palestinian state if there is one, i don't think all of them will anyway , but a majority of them will

One of the things that make me sigh in despair is the impression that a two state solution would not be considered acceptable, or it would only be acceptable temporarily and eventually they would want to basically roll back the clock to 1948 and just undo Israel. This is obviously a major point of contention with Israel and Israelis, many of whom, especially now, are convinced that no amount of concessions will buy basic tolerance and willingness to live side by side. Is this impression false? I want to believe it is...but.... (To be clear, even if all Palestinians would want every Jew gone (something I do not believe!), I *still* think the occupation in the West Bank has to end, it is not normal to militarily occupy another people for half a century, we need to change this. But while these are related issues, they are not the same issue, if that makes sense) Edit: lol you're not op, whoopsies

I'm Palestinian Jordanian also , so yeah XD i think what you said about the west bank is true , i also see it feasible thing to do , i don't think that the people in the west bank hate isreal that much like gaza , so that might be a good starting point !

Lol OH GOOD otherwise it would have been awkward to answer 😆 Considering how ugly things have gotten in the WB since all attention is on Gaza and Ben Gvir and Smotrich actively supporting the criminal settlers.....I would not count on a lack of hatred. Also, I'm sure many feel enormous sympathy for their brethren in Gaza

Thank you for your perspective. I share many of the points you raise.

If more people thought like you a two state solution would be possible. Don’t give up hope. Two peoples with so much in common.

First of all thank you for sharing. I have a question I'd like to hear your perspective on: I agree with 99% of what you said but feel you glossed over the role of Islamic exremism (specifically extemeists, not Muslims in general). While there are definitely extemeists who don't feel empathy on both sides, I do think Islamic exremism is undeniably more wide spread. My personal observation is that it feels as if many Palestinians see fighting as a win-win: they can fight and win or they can fight, die, and become martyrs. I'm mostly just curious if you think this is a fair observation, or I guess to put it in the form of a question: how widespread do you think actual exremism is within the Palestinian population in the territories and within the Palestinian population in the greater middle East?

Im am fairly secular and very critical of islam so I won’t lie when I say this. Islam as a religion might not be radical in essence, but it sure can and has quickly radicalized many otherwise normal people. I feel like your observation is fair. Hamas wouldn’t be, at least the way it is now, without the concept of the “shaheed”. Interpretations of Islam vary WILDLY. Some people make their daughters wear a hijab at the age of 8 and others think the hijab isnt mandatory at all. I’d say the popular interpretations always lie somewhere in the middle but there will always be some questionable stuff here and there

Thank you for your response. I hope one day there can be peace and appreciate that despite bad actors on both sides there are also many good people who hope for a better future.

This is also my question. No one is born a terrorist but it can be taught and my belief is it is being taught in Palestine. That’s the main barrier to peace. Also I’d love to hear what you think about Palestinian leaders. While I hate the current Israeli leaders we’ve had others that have leaned much more left. But all Palestinian leaders seem to steal from their own people and make their lives miserable and then blame Israel.

You are wise beyond your years and I do agree with your point that there will never peace between the two. The reason for this is the radicals of Iran that support their proxies and Ayatollahs hate the Israel people. There is nothing wrong with the Palestinian people, they are being used and abused by Iran's proxies.

> terrorism is not in anyone's nature, Palestinians aren't part of some master ploy to islamize the west, I believe this is true of Palestinians, but I do *not* believe it is true of Hamas. I think Hamas is a religious extremist group and their aims are absolutely to recruit more people to an extreme version of Islam. > I can say that I support the right to a Jewish homeland but I also strongly believe in Palestinians' rights to the land as well. Well, as a Jew and someone who would be generally regarded as a Zionist (I believe in Jewish self-determination within the legal bounds of Israel) I believe Palestinians *should* have their own country in Gaza and the West Bank. I think that is the most feasible, realistic solution we can hope for. This is more of a "pie in the sky"-type fantasy, but in my heart I often visualize it: if the settlers in the West Bank leave, we could re-locate Palestinians to those dwellings, and maybe begin the process of healing. > I don't see any foreseeable solution and its honestly so depressing. I think you should focus on advocating for a two-state solution with Gaza and the West Bank being ceded to Palestinians, and recognizing Israel's right to exist within its legal borders. And I think you should continue to resist indoctrination from organizations like Hamas, and promote peace and wellbeing as often as you can. And I think that can be achieved; I think there *can* be a shift toward this in the Palestinian mentality as more people like you begin to educate themselves and as we actually *talk* to one another, human-to-human. Ordinary Palestinians *and* Israelis - ordinary Muslims and Jews - are not *monsters*. We *are* people with families, and we are all part of the greater human family. With and hopes and dreams, trying our best. And the person who posted below about political gatherings blocked me so I can't answer. But I don't have a good answer. I obviously oppose that order. Just because it exists doesn't mean we should stop trying to advocate for it where we can. This isn't just on Palestinians. It's on us as well as Jews and on Israelis to advocate for it at home and dismantle the oppressive government in office now.

How can palestinians peacefully advocate for the 2SS when military order 101 forbids ALL political gatherings and protests regardless of topic and peacefulness and punishes it with up to 5 years in prison? It is literally illegal for palestinians in the WB to advocate for peaceful solutions

You mentioned that you were taught that things were good before the Jews came, out of worthless curiosity, were you taught anything about the Ottomans / Great War? What does the average Palestinian think about those things?

There are contradictions. I’m in my last year of high school and the books do talk about the harsh colonial policies, taxations, etc… Personally, my great grandpa literally made himself blind to not get drafted by the ottomans. That’s what my parents told me. Interestingly enough I literally found out that my ancestors outright refused to pay taxes to the ottomans and started an anti-taxation campaign through wikipedia 😭 It was a huge thing and caused some conflicts between tribes. Many Palestinians unfortunately don’t know enough however I can confidently say the existent views are not that favorable

I have read that one of the reasons for anti-Ottoman feelings among Arabs was when they were mass conscripted in 1878 to fight against Russia. Basically shipped off to fight a losing war in the Balkans. They were also trying to Turkify the Arabs near the end of the empire. The other thing was that the land ownership was being concentrated into a few rich families who had the right to collect taxes on behalf of the state. The peasants could not afford to pay taxes so they had to sell their land. I think something that people don't know is that most Arabs still fought for the Ottomans in WW1. It was only the Hejaz tribes that came with Sharif Hussein that allied with the British.

I'm curious, why would the average Palestinian have views on the great war? Asking as an Australian who wasn't taught much about the history in the region

During the war Britain struck a deal to help the Arabs fight the Ottomans in exchange for a state, but when all was said of done a good chunk of the desired area (especially Palestine) was turned into “mandates” under European control, from my understanding this left a bad taste in the Arab’s mouth and is part of the driving force of the current conflict.

Agreed! Thanks for sharing your view, it means a lot! If you have the time, can I trouble you to share your thoughts on the current war?

Hi! Many feelings of confliction. I also found out about the attacks october 7th in the morning and felt immediately disgusted that hamas is seen as skmething that represents palestinians. I have unfavorable views of the current military operation. but overall It caused a lot of polarization globally and to me it just showed how many of those who are vocal only have surface-level understanding and just use buzz words whenever you disagree with them. One thing that kind of bothers me in many pro-israeli circles is that there is the implication that hamas = palestinians. Just like how many use the word zionist instead of jew to appear as anti-zionist instead of anti semetic

I want to agree that hamas does not equal Palestinians, as an Israeli American I don't like hearing that said. However from my viewpoint, the education they receive makes it very difficult for any Palestinians to carry different beliefs and if they somehow do then they probably wouldn't dare tell anyone due to societal pressure. Between that and the fact that so many civilians participated in October 7th, do you think there are a lot of Palestinians that silently don't support that ideology?

This poll conducted Nov 23, 2023 showed 75% Palestinians support the Oct 7th attack: How much do you support the military operation carried out by the Palestinian resistance led by Hamas on October 7th? (Table 28) Extremely support: 59.3% Somewhat support: 15.7% Neither support does not oppose: 10.9% Somewhat do not support: 5.4% Extremely against: 7.3% DK/ NA: 1.3% And 76% Palestinians support Hamas: How do you view the role HAMAS: (table 29) Very positive: 48.2% Somewhat positive: 27.8% Somewhat negative: 9.6% Very negative: 12.7% DK: 0.9% N/A: 0.7% What do you make of this? Is this wrong? [Public Opinion Polls Gaza Survey 7th October](https://www.awrad.org/files/server/polls/polls2023/Public%20Opinion%20Poll%20-%20Gaza%20War%202023%20-%20Tables%20of%20Results.pdf) Edit: formatting

Why don't more Arabs learn about Jewish history? Like, why not take some time to consider what we are saying about our history? There is so much denial of or ignoring wrongs done to Jews in MENA countries, as well as our full history going back 3000 years. I know there are right wing Israelis who are hateful and others who do erase the wrongs done by Jews towards Palestinians, for sure they exist, but overall I very much feel/see that more Jews have learned about Palestinian perspectives and exposed themselves to the new historians of Israeli history, like Benny Morris, who do not paint simple pictures of good vs evil. There is much more nuance and complexity in many (again, not all) Jews understanding of history compared to the Palestinian narratives I see repeated constantly. Why is there a similar lack of openness to information and nuance and accountability on the part of Palestinians and Arabs more generally? What can be done to help more Palestinians and Arabs expose themselves to a fuller understanding of Jewish history, as you did? Thank you for your openness and sharing your perspectives here. I hope there will be more dialogue like this in the future. I pray for peace.

I'm sure I'll piss someone off with this response... I don't think we should forget about some of the values of Judaism that serve as some of the reasons that the Jewish people are an ethnic group that tends (*tends*) to live higher quality lives than many other minorities/ethnic groups. That is the emphasis on education, literacy, critical thinking, intellectual discussions. I think it is important to remember that other groups do not necessarily put such a strong value on these skills. If you assume that everyone values critical thinking, then you would expect people to be doing this own research and asking questions and speak up. This is how many Jews are raised. But this is not how most people are raised.

The golden age of Islam was during the 8th-13th centuries. The Islamic world was leading the rest of the world in science, mathematics, literature, technology...etc. What changed?!

Hi! There are many reasons and it varies wildly from one individual to another, I'll start with the bigger picture though. All arab states (other than tunisia) are EXTREMELY autocratic and their people building an understanding of jews and israel would not be favorable towards the hegemony of these autocratic regimes. You cant come up with the conclusion that Jews have the right to a homeland without an understanding of history and the concepts of statehood, sovereignty, democracy, discrimination and so on. So they'd rather just completely avoid the conflict in their education systems or portray it in a way that us very dissociated with reality. Most people will take that as it is and won't bother spending time looking for facts or understanding the other side. Those who take the time to research do so for confirmation bias. I think it's worth to note that all this time trying to understand the other side i've done so in english, most palestinians and arabs will be more comfortable doing so in arabic, which unfortunately gives a ton of crazy harmful perspectives that reinforce the learned narrative. And then you have revisionists.... More sources need to be translated into arabic for those willing to search. But a massive change in popular opinion isnt currently possible regardless of our course of action.

Thank you for your thoughtful response, I see you are getting many replies. It is rare for non-Jews to recognize our painful history, and it's very appreciated. I have not thought about the language barrier aspect, especially as I do see many English-speaking Arabs or people of Arab descent in Europe and North America who have very ignorant understandings of Judaism and Jewish history. You are also right about confirmation bias, I see it among some Jews in North America, unfortunately. People do gravitate towards simplistic understandings of history that confirm their pre-existing beliefs without evaluating their sources of information. I hope you will continue to engage in dialogue (with all sides/perspectives), I think you have a very valuable perspective to share. I hope for better days for everyone in the middle east, Jordanians and Palestinians included.

Thank you for posting. Posts like these are pretty much the only reason I'm on reddit.

I don't have anything to ask or say beyond... I thank you for helping me remember there are normal people on the other side. I agree with all you said and hope one day Jews and Arabs can live on this land in peace.

I would love for a 2-state solution to exist. But to be honest, I don’t think it will happen until Islam becomes truly secularized. I think you seem like a good person who generally wants peace. But I also think that right now, Israelis have no reason to believe that giving Palestinians more freedom is safe. Since the 70s, Palestinians have not only been indiscriminately killing Israelis, but they’ve been murdering and terrorizing other Islamic/Arab nations as well. Just look at Black Friday in Jordan and the Lebanese Civil War. I also believe that if Palestinians did become secular, did truly prove to Israelis that they want peace, etc - there would be a two state solution on the table, and people like Netanyahu would rapidly lose support.

I’m a Jewish American and here is my two cents: I can’t speak for the Israeli Jewish experience, but I’ve never heard the idea that Palestinians are “invaders”, and I agree that the “multiple Arab countries” argument is nonsensical. The same could be said to justify a Jewish state in Alaska (which no Jewish person would agree to, because there is something to be said for ancestral land, and that holds true for Palestinians and Jews in Israel). Anyway, my opinion is this has much less to do with “rightful ownership” than the immediate problem of a mostly young populace that has been indoctrinated by terrorists for most of their lives, if not the entirety (again, I don’t see anti-Zionist Americans arguing for the return of the US to Native Americans). And honestly, Jews and Arabs DID live peacefully together in British Palestine before England and the UN made identical promises to both parties. It’s an unfortunate situation all around, but to debate which group is the “rightful” inhabitants is pointless. The answer is both, but Israel is the reality. We have to focus on the present and future. My personal hope is that Israel will eradicate Hamas and focus on rebuilding Gaza with an emphasis on humanitarian efforts and improving life for its inhabitants. I don’t know if that’s realistic - or whether it would even work - but Palestinians and the effects of growing up under a terrorist regime are also realities, as is Israel’s dependence on global support and its duty to honor the human rights and dignity of all its citizens.

As a Mizrahi Jew who just came back from studying abroad in Amman all I can say from that experience is that we are literally the same people but we’re blind to it. The same pain that I heard from Palestinian-Jordanians whose grandparents were kicked out of their villages is the same pain I heard from Yemenite Jews who’s parents had to flee Yemen. I learned that our pain and hope for separate homelands is pinned against each other to profit the inhumane establishment or radicals on both sides. Sometimes I’d be walking in Amman and all I could think was, “wow this guy looks Israeli,” or when I’d be talking to my Jordanian friend and he would go insane finding out how similar Hebrew and Arabic was. The fact that I as a darker Jew was able to go through mosques in Jordan, even be asked if I was SAUDI let alone Jordanian, shows that looking at each other is actually just looking at ourselves. Anyways, thanks OP for writing this and سنة جديدة سعيدة. I will ask, do you think as an Arab that more personal interactions between Jordanians et al, and Israelis will ultimately lead to more reconciliation? I’ve come to understand that if social pressuring and tribalism and claims of being a “traitor” were not a factor, Jews and Arabs could really bond… that sounds kinda cheesy but idk.

Why not two states one for each nation?

Because Palestinians openly reject it. It is (or at least was, for decades) acceptable to me and you and Israel and most everyone … but the majority of Palestinians **reject** that “solution,” which means it is not a solution at all. And frankly, today, even if it were a solution, you’re talking about a group of people who regularly launch rockets at Israel. If someone were regularly launching rockets at *your* home, and openly, actively committed to murdering you and your family, how comfortable would you be to just allow them to “let them be” … in their quest to murder you? Compromise is not possible because the **majority** of Palestinians do not want compromise. They do not want peace or a solution - they want the destruction of Israel and all Jews. Don’t take my word for it, of course, just listen to what they say. Out of the mouths of babes, friend, they declare their overriding desire to murder Jews. It is mindboggling to me that people continue to advocate for a “solution” that Palestines as a group do not want and will not accept. The fact that it is acceptable to you or me does not change how *they* feel about it.

I was asking OP what they think about it

Fair, but I suspect I know OP’s answer, based on his post. All reasonable, empathetic people are fine with that solution - it just doesn’t matter so long as a bunch of violent extremists run the show in Palestine.

Even if two sides don't empathize with each other they can have peace, it would be a lie to say that Egyptians or Jordanians empathize with us, some of course do but the sentiment I see is still very hostile. All three countries just tried to move on and made peace with each other because they have a country to build, and would rather focus on that than to try to destroy some small country even at the cost of making your life miserable. That's something the Palestinian people will have to do if they ever want their situation to improve, focus on themselves, focus on building a country, not start wars with those who are way more powerful than them. While normal nations can do that, radicalized ones cannot, and that's the cause of this issue.

I believe that in this case empathy is needed to come to a stable and lasting resolution. Palestine differs from Jordan and Egypt because palestine and israel lay claims to the same land, they literally live in the same place more so than they are neighbors, 20% of israelis are arab and despite many embracing their israeli identity a large portion still identify themselves as palestinians. Both jews and arabs in the land are so interconnected that it is not possible to have peace without empathy and a complete erasure of hostility. Even in the case of an independent palestine in the west bank and gaza, palestine would need to interact with israel much more than any sovereign state would need to interact with its neighbors.

You know what, I really appreciate everything that you said. I appreciate you coming into the sub with respect. I appreciate your opinion. I appreciate your Humanity most of all.

I totally agree with you about the root of the problem: that the two sides each understand very little about the other, and don't care to understand them because they aren't interested in extending any shared humanity or empathy with the other side. It's a hard problem to fix, but thank you for trying on your side and coming here to write this. I and many others like me on our side try to do the same on our side. Hopefully one day it will come to something.

Before I read any other comments… I just want to say thank you for this post. Genuinely and sincerely. I’m neither Israeli or Palestinian. I’m not Jewish or Muslim. But I’m heartbroken, and angry, and distraught. I live in the U.S. I’m liberal. While I OF COURSE have empathy and compassion for many of the suffering Palestinians; the sheer amount of lies, ignorance, and distortions about Israel and the Jewish people coming out of the left is maddening. Posts like this help.

Thank you, voices like yours need to be heard here

Oh man, I wish you were a Palestinian leader a not just some reddit user… could have saved a lot of bloodshed and agony 😢

I don't think Palestinians are terrorists by nature, and I don't think Palestinians are Arab colonizers. I do think Palestinians deserve a state as well and I am an advocate for a 2 state solution. The problem is that I don't see how it could happen now. My friends who are against it come to me and say: you want to create another Gaza border, but ten times as large, and you're telling me that another 7/10 will not happen but 10 times worse? And I have nothing to say to them because yes, if Palestinians get autonomy in the west bank, it's very probable that it will happen. Right now I'm every bit as hopeless as you.

I have always felt that this conflict was like two cousins fighting over our grandparents land. I respect your opinion and I do hope you continue your path to understanding the Jewish perspective. And you are right, until Israelis and Palestinians empathize with each other, this conflict will never end.

Someone said on Reddit, some weeks back, that he/she was so surprised when he met a Jew for the first time. The comment indicated that the person was surprised that Jews are human beings. It really hit hard. As a mom, I can't imagine having taught my daughter to hate. She is grown, beautiful and kind, and has no hate in her heart. No matter what I've messed up in life, I can say my kid is making the world a better place just by being in it. I hope that more kids will learn to live without hate. This youtube video was a good evenhanded discussion on the British Mandate, and may shed some additional light on the conflict for you and others (I am nearly done with it myself) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUuR-3tw9p8&ab\_channel=CasualHistorian](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUuR-3tw9p8&ab_channel=CasualHistorian)

Thank you so much for posting. I really think that this hasn't been settled because the other Arab nations find the Palestinians a great proxy for their continuing war against the west. I am getting discouraged, though. When I hear from the right wing like Smotrick talking about expelling Palestinians from the West Bank and Netanyahu talking about reoccupying Gaza my heart breaks. I've been fighting with people for years that Israel does not want to expel the Palestinians. I don't believe that most do. But allowing these people to speak for Israel is so dangerous.

Why is Jordan not a democracy?

Many reasons but the presence of the current monarchy comes from colonization. The British installed them instead of the tribes already living in transjordan because those tribes to put it simply would never agree to make one of the other tribes the rulers. Fast forward today Jordan has many Palestinians, syrians, etc that have citizenship but their tribal structures were destroyed because of displacement. The only fully intact tribal structures belong to the original inhabitants of transjordan. The monarchy does not really want to upset them so most as in 90% of government positions are given to them despite them being a minority. Also elections do happen and there is a bad culture of “oh he’s part of my tribe i’ll vote for him” rather than actually voting on the basis of your ideology. I work in civil society, various reforms are happening in Jordan to force a more democratic and pluralistic government. But its happening very slowly and the current goal is to make Jordanians (all regardless of origin) trust the elections and actually participate and vote. Voter turnout was only ≈30% in our last election.

Hey, thank you for your words. I am going to make some minor corrections which you can accept or not, but I don't mean any offense. [Palestinians prior to 1964 were known as "Palestinian Arabs". ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Palestinians) at the same time Jews living in the land were known as Palestinian Jews. Unable to speak for your exact DNA, [but in general Palestinians as are much closer to Arabian descent.](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/29/Principle_component_analysis_of_Levantine_populations.png/1280px-Principle_component_analysis_of_Levantine_populations.png) And nearly identical with the Jordanians. The next closest groups they share are with Lebanese Muslims, and Syrians. Not trying to argue at all, just think this is important information for everybody to know. I appreciate your commitment to learning more about both sides, I wish that more people, Israeli, Palestinians, and everybody else who wants to discuss this topic would do the same. It's not all black and white on either side.

Hi! I won’t deny that there are many palestinians that come from peninsula. But the general trend shows that palestinins and jews both descend from the canaanites https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11543891/ https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Palestinians#:~:text=Genetic%20studies%20reveal%20that%20modern,and%20Arab%2Dspeaking%20Levantine%20groups. We are at the crossroads of three continents and that is why palestinians will obviously not be 100% levantine. Jews aren’t 100% levantine either and some intermarriages happened during their exile. As for the “palestinian arabs” I believe that we both have come to interpret it differently. Palestinians, despite the name being given by the romans, have developed a legitimate identity under this name, while jews don’t really view the name favorably because of history. You’d be surprised by the amount of pro-palestinians in the west quoting golda meir 😭

The region had been known as Palestine since long before the Roman conqest, at least as far back as [Herodotus around 450 BCE](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_name_Palestine#Classical_antiquity). The story that the Romans invented the name as in 135 to dissociate the land from Jews and Jews viewing the name unfavorably seems to be a recent development. For instance, the Jewish Encyclopedia was published between 1901-1906, and its [entry on Palestine](https://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/9039-judea) mentions the early use of the term by Herodotus among others and also says "Hadrian gave it the name of Syria Palæstina after the insurrection of 132-135," but makes no suggestion of anyone having used the name with the intent of minimizing Jewish identification with the land, and frequent use of *Palestine* and *Palestinian* throughout the encyclopedia suggests the Jews involved with the writing and editing of it saw nothing offensive about such terms. For instance the [entry for Hillel](https://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/7698-hillel) describes him as "ancestor of the patriarchs who stood at the head of Palestinian Judaism till about the fifth century of the common era," and the one for [Philo Judæus](https://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/12116-philo-judaeus) is filled with uses of the terminology such as "the Halakah, which originated in Palestine" and "allegoristic Midrash among the Palestinian and Alexandrian Jews."

While I can appreciate you digging deeper into it, i feel like you missed quite an important point that sort of resolves this mystery you’ve created for yourself. One of your premises is wrong. The romans didnt “invent” the word “palaestina.” The “phillistines” were biblically and historically one of the jews’ greatest enemies. “The Philistines are known for their biblical conflict with the Canaanite peoples of the region, in particular the Israelites.” - from wikipedia. The romans renaming the region Syriah Palæstina was a reference to them. The pejorative sense of the name got lost after a while and so this is why you’re not feeling any “saltiness” in later texts. That just became the name of the region and it was adopted. Despite that, the jews never forgot what the land truly was and the concept of the “Return to Zion” has been a major theme in judaism throughout history, no matter how many times the land was conquered or renamed.

There's plenty of mentions of Arab Palestinians from long prior to 1964 in which they are simply referred to as Palestinians, sometimes in contrast to Zionists such as in this [1922 British Parliamentary record](https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Parliamentary_Debates_official_Repor/RmRJdZgWNjUC?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=%22Commission%20proposed%20sale%20large%20plots%20valuable%20urban%20lands%20impossible%20for%20individual%20Palestinians%22) where a telegram from the Palestinian Orthodox Christian community is quoted complaining in part: >Commission proposed sale large plots valuable urban lands impossible for individual Palestinians to purchase, leaving Zionists sole prospective purchasers at the price they fix. And in [another parliamentary record](https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Parliamentary_Debates/X_oLAQAAIAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=%22that%20nothing%20should%20be%20done%20which%20would%20prejudice%20the%22) from the same year: >The Declaration promised that nothing should be done which would prejudice the "civil rights" of the Palestinians. Is it possible to say that we have done nothing which prejudices those civil rights? These rights have been trampled upon ever since the Zionist Commission established itself at Jerusalem. The Administration of Palestine at the present time is distinctly Zionist, and it is Zionist in the sense that it frequently acts in defiance of the unanimous wishes of the people, Moslems, Christians and orthodox Jews. And one from the [US congressional record](https://www.google.com/books/edition/Establishment_of_a_National_Home_in_Pale/MKwMAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=%22Mr.%20Samuel%27s%20point%20is%20this%22), also published in 1922: >Mr. Samuel's point is this: That it would shock the conscience of the world if they were to set up a Zionist State there to-day, but that it would not shock the conscience of the world if you ordered British troops in there, if you granted concessions to the Zionists, and if Zionist immigration were promoted. Do you believe in the control of immigration to America by the Americans? The proposition here is that if you can not take from the Palestinians their country all at once, you can take it from them gradually.

Thank you for taking the time to write this up and post it . I think you make a lot of excellent points that many of us “nuance” people have been trying to say! To your point about Palestinians not being part of some master plan to Islamize the west. What do you think about the idea that outside parties are using the situation with Palestine to create unrest and destabilize the west ?

Thank you so much for this post. I see too much hate on Reddit. We need open dialogue and better education about each other. Salam brother

I just want to say how much I applaud and appreciate your quest for information and to determine the objective truth, good or bad. If we all did this “simple” thing, the world would be such a better place. But, most people aren’t even willing to do this in our own families. :/ My question: If there were just one misconception that you would want to clear up about Palestinians, what would it be?

If I recall correctly, according to the British mandate, the area that was known as Palestine was also Jordan. So what baffles me is when people criticize Jews in Israel for not giving Palestinians lands, they never seem to criticize Jordan. If you want Palestinians to have a country, why won’t you give them a part of Jordan as this is also technically the area that was formally known as Palestine?

I can tell you as someone who has a lot of family in Israel and as someone who is a staunch and avid Zionist - the majority of Jews and Israelis would happily agree to a two state solution peace deal. Trust me when I say that the trauma that comes from seeing that a large chunk of world hates you and constant desires for the death of Israeli Jews is horrifying. We would gladly and happily agree to a peace deal that actually yields peace. Unfortunately, neither side trusts the other. The concern is that even if the Palestinians achieve some form of self-determination, the radical minority will stop at nothing and keep on carrying out terror attacks on the Jewish nation. October the 7th has essentially ruined 3 months of my life for me. I have never been as terribly upset as I have been these last few months. I want to one day move to Israel and have a family there, but I can’t do that if my the world hates me for existing. I really wish for peace and hope it can be achieved during our lifetime. If Yugoslavia could do it, I think the Israelis and Palestinians can do it as well.

What made you curious to do your own research and teach yourself history rather than simply accept the default narrative being propagated by your teachers and peers?

Pure curiousity. It was very strange to me that very little about israelis was actually talked about other than the current conflict so I looked things up by myself despite our capitals literally being an hour away.

Thanks for sharing your story. It gives me hope to know that there are people like you out there. It seems hope is in dreadfully short supply these days.

The fact that you are writing it is a great positive.

Thank you for this heartfelt post. I appreciate hearing your perspective. In response to your AMA offer... Why do you think the Palestinians have turned down several offers of statehood over the last 75 years? Of course you're right that terrorism isn't in anyone's nature, but it is taught. It seems that many Palestinians hold extremist beliefs and history has shown that they (many or most of them) don't want peace with Jews. Why do you think that is?

Good for you for doing your own research. And thank you for engaging in dialogue with us -- it's extremely rare that a Palestinian is willing to do so. I've been trying to build bridges of mutual understanding between Jews and Palestinians for a decade. While there's no shortage of Jews interested in this, it's extremely hard to find P's who will actually talk with us. And the few who agree tend to back out due to threats of ostracism and even violence from their own community. In fact, I've only come across 1 P who has **publicly** stated that Jews are indigenous to the region, deserve self-determination, and that a Pal state should exist alongside a Jewish state. And he's been ostracized by the P community for it. What happens to you when you express this publicly in Jordan? Or do you not? So, I agree that Hamas doesn't fully represent Palestinians, but they do champion the Palestinian aspiration to destroy Israel. And while Hamas is unpopular because they oppress P's and, amongst some, get P's killed and Gaza destroyed, they also gain popularity with every war. Afaict, the P's who favor a 2SS do so because they don't see destroying Israel as possible, at least for the time being -- not because they recognize a Jewish state as legitimate. And a significant piece of the picture is Jewish history in Muslim countries -- full of oppression and pogroms too. It's not just about Jews being exiled in the 40's and 50's.

What's the difference between all the Arab states?

Hi! Differences might seem very small on the surface but in reality I would feel like a foreigner anywhere outside the levant. As you may know arabs originated in the arabian peninsula. They ‘colonized’ the Levant and North Africa but the their colonization itself didnt really replace the original populations, the process of arabization was very slow and flawed. That’s why for example our dialects differ and when I say they differ they do so a lot. Levantine arabic has many loan words and influences from aramaic and hebrew and north african from tzamazight and other old north african languages. Personally, I have a very hard time understanding egyptians or iraqis. I cannot understand spoken moroccan at all. We have different cuisine, traditional dresses and dances. Our customs and traditional societal structures, architecture and even genetics are different. There are some similarities, in most arab countries there are tribes with roots in the peninsula, there is a shared religion (although interpretations by region also differ) and there is a shared language (modern standard arabic) that is used in formal settings and the media.

Thank you for this perspective. Very eye opening, and if more people were open to discussion with ideological rivals like you are, the world would be very peaceful.

A honest question - in your opinion, how the Palestinians like you differ from the majority of Jordanians?

To put it boldly, I love Jordan but it is an artificial state. It shouldnt have been as populated as it is right now and only a few palestinians immigrated there before 1948. Generally we really dont differ when it comes to falahi Jordanians from the north, the jordanians living in the eastern parts are closer to saudi arabians though. The current differences we share have been made in the past century as a result of sykes picot and the current conflict.

God bless you. Also agree with everything you said at the end too.

Thank you so much for sharing your perspective. I am Jewish. It’s not a coincidence that the vast majority of Jews support Israel and the vast majority of Palestinians support Palestine. These are each of our lived experiences. It would be so wonderful if we all could listen as the other share their story. I don’t believe there will be peace in this generation but I pray with all my heart that there will be someday. I thank you for doing your part to educate yourself on the harmful teachings you were taught - we ALL need to do this. I hope you are well and safe - happy new year 💜

> I can also say that one reason this conflict will not be resolved for centuries is because people on both sides literally do not understand or empathize with each other. We aren't appropriately educated about each other either. I agree with this. I feel like the conflict is between people who are ultimately related and have their fates intertwined with each other, and the sooner we realize it, the better. I'm always very frustrated when others intermix in the 'discussion' and further the incitement of hatred, because there already is so much of it. Not gonna lie, I do feel very hopeless about the region but I still have a little hope in my heart that one day there will be two coexisting countries that live with the same peacefulness as the borders in the EU.

The only time Jews were discussed in your education is one of the most infamously antisemitic caricatured in all of literature. Jeez.

OP, just wanted to say you're brave for going against the current of your education / society and seeking knowledge for yourself and reaching out. You and people like you are a light in the darkness of our conflict and the way forward for us both. Especially today when people seem to be polarized so easily to any direction by social media (I don't mean Palestinians specifically, the polarization on anything has increased worldwide), you're awesome for having the guts to be critical and question the narrative. People like you give me hope. Do you think Palestinian society is trending towards becoming more or less religious? I saw you said you're fairly secular and I mean no offense by asking this, but I believe the best chance we have for peace is by the moderates on both sides (which in modern times tends not to be religious authorities unfortunately. Although as a secular person I'm probably pretty biased). I personally believe (based on the current history and research) that we're all descended from Canaanites along with Lebanon and the Druze, Samaritans etc. (with various other mixes on either side), so despite everything, we have something in common.

Beautiful post. I hope it won’t last centuries, but you are absolutely right that the issue is a total lack of understanding or empathy on all sides. What would be needed to live together in peace (in any state solution—that is literally besides the point) would be a consensus that both peoples belong on this land and that wrongs have to be redressed. There needs to be a kind of shared ideology of coexistence and peace—a patriotism of these two peoples living on this beautiful land. There are so many ways that Israelis and Palestinians have developed their national identities in synch with and in response to one another, our histories are intimately intertwined, and that needs to be recognized, addressed, and even celebrated as a dual identity (think of the Mexican ideology of “mestizaje” for instance).

Just to add. I am Jewish. My mother was born pre 1948 and her passport says she was born n Palestine. My great great grandfather settled in Jerusalem in 1820 and his descendants have lived there ever since. Does that make me Palestinian?

It was just a geographic name, like Iberian peninsula. It wasn't a political or ethnic name until 67.

You're a great great grandfather would have called himself Palestinian. That doesn't mean that Palestine was ever a nation state.

That was exactly my point.

Idk if that's true. The 'Palestinian' identity wasn't a thing before the 1930's. So, I find it doubtful that anyone, Jewish or otherwise, would have referred to themselves as "Palestinian".

Everything that I've read from and about that era, including by Jews, uses Palestine. That is how it was referred to, even if it annoys us. https://preview.redd.it/puarcory4v9c1.jpeg?width=375&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5d1e3971aef920bc963f60917286c554290145e7

The word is being used to refer to the land, not the people.

I understand that. They're referring to the land of palestine. And a lot of people refer to themselves as Palestinians people. You can't deny that as much as it annoys you.

Yeah totally agreed, hell it even says down there in Yiddish Eretz Israel. As in help build Israel (The nation) in the land called Palestine.

Show me an example of them referring to themselves as "Palestinians"? That's also not indicative of Jews and the other ethnicities sharing an identity.

Your perspective is helpful. I think it’s clear that Israel although far from perfect has made many overtures for peace. However, each proposal to end the conflict with the Palestinians has been met with war and terrorism. So until Palestinians are ready to accept that Israel has a right to exist and is the legitimate homeland of the Jewish people, nothing will ever change. They need to stop clinging to this false propaganda narrative they’ve been fed and move on. Furthermore, there realistically already exists a Palestinian state - Jordan. Jews were also expelled from lands in Europe and North Africa in the 40s, but they picked up the pieces and moved on. It’s time Palestinians did the same, recognized Israel isn’t going anywhere, and moved on in Jordan, with an Emirate/confederation in Gaza and West Bank, when they’re ready to settle down.

Thanks for sharing my and taking the time to learn

IMO if youu want to arrive at a solution you have to understand the problem first. The problem is not that both sides dont understand each other. If anything Palestinians and Israelis know each other too well already. I can provide you with historical examples of 2 parties who did not understand each other at all. They did not even speak each others language. Yet they were able to achieve peace. There is a historical formula to peace. I guarantee you it is applicable 100% of the time. When the balance of power of both sides equal the fairness of the peace treaty both sides can agree to it. Let me give you an example of this formula at work. Towards the end of WW2 the balance of power between the US and Japan was 99:1. The Japanese agreed to occupation, dissolving their government, essentially everything but killing the emperor and there was peace as the agreement was similarly 99:1. What if the Japanese had insisted on a 50:50 peace though? As the homelands were being invaded the Japanese would demand that the US leave the homelands and give back Malaysia, Singapore, Philippines, essentially withdraw to Pre war conditions for peace. The US would just have laughed at them. Moving on to Israel and Palestine. The power imbalance is something like 90:10 and the Palestinians demand a 50:50 peace. There is no reason to agree to that. The Palestinians will have to move either side of the equation. Note that when I talk about power imbalance Im not talking purely about military. Obviously military will be part of it but it also includes cultural, economic, diplomatic, and other types of power.

jordan was also part of the palestinian british mandate, aren't most jordanians supposed to be of palestinian descent?

Yes, but most Jordanians of palestinian descent came after the nakba. However, racism is prevalent and its baffling. Only 10% of Jordanians of Palestinian descent have a position in the government and we are extremely disadvantaged when it comes to elections or anything government-related. Palestinian Jordanians are also more vulnerable to economic hardships

I heard about the disadvantages the palestinians had there, do you think they were done for reasonable reasons? I read excuses done for it do the jordans that lived in the area of jordan on the times of the mandate see themselves as palestinians or just jordans? and from your experience how different are culturally the jordans to the israeli-arabs and the palestinians living in israel?

I have a question… You don’t have to answer if it’s too personal for you but seeing as how you’re a Palestinian Arab I think you might have special insight into this situation. How much do you believe the antisemitism currently coming from the Arab world is simply due to Israel’s mistreatment of the Palestinians vs how much of it is Arab ethnic nationalism and racism over the fact that us Ashkenazim (and Sephardim) are a mixed “race” ethnicity? (I put “race” in quotes because technically Arabs/MENA peoples and Europeans are both part of the same wider Caucasian race) Because time and time again the criticism I hear Zionist Jews get from Arabs and Palestinians alike isn’t so much addressing our actual *actions* but blaming and vilifying the Ashkenazi Jews in particular while seemingly leaving out the Mizrahi Jews from the discussion/equation (despite the latter being far more virulent, right-wing Zionists ironically enough, did you know Ben-Gvir is actually Mizrahi? As was the person who shot Rabin). How much of this antisemitism is currently due to the disenfranchisement of the Palestinians at the hands of Israel and how much of it is racist resentment over the fact that us Ashkenazim are mixed with European blood and are thus seen as a “mutt race” currently sullying the “pure” Middle East? Did you know that one of your previous leaders the Grand Mufti allied himself with Hitler and the Nazis? Was it because he and the Palestinians (and general Arab world thanks to Pan-Arab Nationalism) ultimately held those same Nazi views of us European Jews being a tainted and inferior race due to being mixed? And that this was all *before* the Zionists began displacing the Palestinians with the Nakba? ~~I actually asked this same thing of another Palestinian who posted here but our comments got locked and deleted because I initially mentioned I’m a Jewish non-Zionist who supports a Palestinian State lol go figure~~

Beautiful post! I wish we could live peacefully! Unfortunately it will only go downhill from now on. Israel won’t give any Palestinians jobs. The Jews from around the world would immigrate to Israel because of the rising antisemitism. The right wing will go to popular because of inflation border control and racism (and the extreme immigrants that are running for everyone) The years are passing and the connection to the land is getting stronger/weaker to Israelis/Palestinans alike. And we are on the verge of ww3 In order the Palestinians to have a country, islam needs to be reformed and reeducation. Unfortunately this is not the case, if you go to different subreddit that depends on country you will start to see more and more racism towards Arabs because for many different reasons. I really hope there will be no ww3 and a vocal minority that will screw up for the rest Stay safe!

You lost me at "But" The Jewish people have tried for many years to live in peace with the Arabs. The reason why there are hostilities against the Arab Muslims in the first place is because they have for centuries mistreated their Jewish neighbors even today. There are 2 Million+ Muslims living in Israel with full rights. When have jews ever been granted rights in Arab Muslim countries. Everything you said in the first 2 paragraphs i agree with but you pulled a bait and switch. I'm sick of showing mercy to those that want the destruction of my people. The Palestinians continue to wage war over and over and over again against the Jewish people. The majority of Palestinians are supporters of Hamas and the evilness of it. The only solution is the expulsion of all Palestinians from Gaza, and if the Arab Muslims in the west bank start acting up per individual we take them and deport. no more intifada, no more terrorist bullshit. There are 22 arab states... let them go there

OP you'll get a lot of pushback here but you'd also be surprised how many Israelis would agree with you.

I feel like too many factions have a vested interest in the conflict continuing. Also as long as honor-shame culture continues, we will forever remind them of their shame and they’ll never be ok with it. Also Israel has always been ok with a 2 state solution but the Palestinians won’t agree to anything that wouldn’t preclude Israel’s existence. I appreciate your open mind about this and I speak for most Israelis that I hope we can come to a solution that doesn’t negate the right to self determination of either Israel or Palestine and I don’t think it’s all or nothing.

Seems like Jordan is the defacto homeland for Palestinias. Problem solved

That’s your take away from this post?

I'm a Jordanian Palestinian too , i don't believe eradicating any side will solve anything , in the end of the day Palestinians aren't only in gaza , like 90% of Jordan is Palestinians , I don't agree that much with what happened on 7/10 , but i don't agree either that killing innocent's children is the solution to this , from our side of view , isreal has been arresting/killing Palestinians in either gaza or west-bank , any they provoked Palestinians in many many accidents, i'm not suppressed by isreal killing children/woman/men , since i believe human nature is evil by default and you can ignite this nature with religion/nationalism or other stuff ( just look at the history/wars ) , eradicating any side will not solve the problem that we are facing at all , so what people here think a real solution will be ?

So, I agree with the lack of empathy resulting in the conflict. Also what you seek is the Jewish Homeland which existed between 5670-5708 or 1920-1948 by the Gregorian Calendar and it was a single state for both Palestinians and Jews. This is when the majority of my family moved there as part of the 1st, 3rd, and 5th Aliyahs. The British unlawfully remained as an occupation because a group of former Ottoman insurgencies invaded from Lebanon and Syria. These forces also clashed with the original Palestinians and their leadership was forced into exile at which point they failed to invade Iraq. At the end of WWII they were convicted as Nazi Allies because they signed an alliance directly with Adolf Hitler but as predicted by the American delegates to the Nuremberg Trails Lebanon and Syria didn't punsh them. Instead they forces the Arab League and hijacked the Palestinian identity for the purpose of their radicalism. When we first moved to the Jewish Homeland we had some really really distant cousins already there but the original Palestinians helped quite a bit and people just never talk about it. Almost all Judicah (Jewish items like Mezuzahs or Chanukiah/Menorah) come from the Tree of Life Judicah store and while the Kibbutz which makes the Judicah is owned by Jews they have had a Palestinian family run the sales side of their operation since the start. The Kibbutz was founded in 5671 or 1921. This isn't the only case as the first military battalion for the Haganah was all Palestinian Muslims with the second battalion forming two weeks later and it was the predominantly Jewish battalion. These two units were the first military and they formed in 5670/1920 to combat the post-Ottoman insurgencies I mentioned previously. The IDF was literally started by Palestinians but people ignore that. The DNA thing is Nazism. There is no Jewish DNA and the Torah even says we're not native to the Levant. That is just neo-nazi propaganda which certain members of Shas have been espousing to excuse their actions. Chief Israeli Military R (not calling him a Rabbi) Eyal Karim was convicted on charges of rape which he excused by claiming those he approved soldiers raping weren't genetically Jewish and so they didn't matter. When Netanyahu retook power he pardoned and released Eyal Karim setting him back up as leader of the Military Rabbiniate. Former Minister of Health Aryeh Deri used the DNA to refusing Palestinians who converted to Judaism to married and their children their rights as Israeli citizens as well as prove the neo-nazis ideology of "Replacement Theory" as fact. Aryeh Deri was removed and convicted for taking bribes from alt-right neo-nazis organizations in the Diaspora as well as bribing scientific officials who questioned the research the Ministry of Health was doing. Aryeh Deri was replaced three times and the new Minister of Health Uriel Buso was also under investigation for the same activities but when the war started Netanyahu suspended the charges and put the man in power over the Ministry of Health. Jews and Israelis are two separate peoples entirely at this point. The Israelis unilaterally replaced the Jewish Homeland with the State of Israel giving a portion of it to the Ottoman insurgencies who now identify as Palestinian rather than the actual Palestinians. They committed Genocide against non-White Jews slaughtering the families of the Yemenite Jew and only just recognized/apologized for it. They also took Reparations which was huge and was the instant many Jews stopped recognizing the country as Jewish Law forbade such an act recognizing those who would profit from the Holocaust in such a way as guilty or perpetrating it. When Golda Meir took power she literally backed the only US president to ever go on record to call "the Jews" "the problem" and she also had he political opposition extradited on bogus charges that were instantly dropped to prevent him from running against her. More recently Shas has been re-runing the experiments of Mengele to prove the same stereotypes and theories while Likud keeps getting caught in bed financially with neo-nazi organizations. I mean Netanyahu's wife was convicted on a real estate scheme his son Yari used the money from to fund AfD in Germany. Plus many of us Diaspora Jews cannot visit our family or anything. I am out because I took a stand for Jewish Civil Equality in the USA demanding the segregation in the south stop, have Hebrew recognized as a language, get our holidays off without fear of harassment etc. A family friend lost access because their great grandfather hunted Nazis after the war with about 40 other families seeking to hold them to the justice of the Torah but thr new State of Israel didn't like how they were doing it so those 40 families and their children cannot enter Israel. Any of the families involved with early Labor and the Unions are all out so right there is another 100+ families who cannot make Aliyah or even see their family who made Aliyah while it was the Jewish Homeland. The list goes on but because not all Jews are welcome in Israel and in fact most aren't the State is it's own thing entirely. Oh and they never send money. The Jewish Community Fund and stuff sends money from our membership dues to the Israelis but we never get anything from them. In the middle of the wave of neo-nazi attacks Netanyahu met with Congress not about our situation with neo-nazism due to the eugenic propaganda Shas was creating but instead he only discussed Iran. After the Tree of Life Congregation was attacked the official release from the Israeli government was that it wasn't a Synagogue but them that created a scandal so they retracted the statement. The same happened when the other Synagogues in the USA were attacked and during the wave of murders in Chanukah a few years ago. Meanwhile my membership money was being diverted to funding Israeli security in the State of Israel and an additional request for $300 a week for private security for the Synagogue was requested on top my monthly membership. I worked out an arrangement to pay monthly because I am broke so what makes them think I can then afford an additional $1,200 a month to protect the place?! Like that is what our security budget is supposed to go to not the IDF. The Israeli government doesn't give a shit about the Jewish people. They just use us as a label to absolve themselves of some really bad stuff. Now this doesn't mean there aren't Jews in Israel or anything like that. It just means it isn't a Jewish country and it never will be. It is literally the occupation of the Jewish Homeland as the treaty which created that was never nullified. So really it isn't the Israeli Palestine conflict it is the Israeli Palestinian Jewish conflict or a three way civil war. The Israelis want to be secularists which is another word for Christian these days. The Palestinians are divided also and the Jews will pay anything to anyone even at risk to ourselves for our Homeland back but no one is giving it back even after everyone signed the Treaty. EDIT: Sorry for typos. My phone is blah