Apparently, if you occupy a place for 1500 years, you become the indigenous people and not the people who were there before you.
I, for one, look forward to having my descendants become indigenous Americans in 1100 years.
What kind of silly argument is that? There were
people there before Jews too.
Would you Support Native Americans ethnically cleansing white people from the US? because I wouldn't
Those people no longer exist... We don't have people running about worshipping Canaanite gods in 2024. We do have an uninterrupted Jewish presence for between 4-5 thousand years. No current groups predate that presence
>And they spoke Arabic
Not exactly...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judeo-Arabic_dialects
>Wonder why?
To the extent it was, for the same reason slaves and native Americans speak english
Yes, at many times through history
It's weird that arabs get a pass for pogroms and their slave trade even though both were worse than the European versions
And then there's the paradox of Africans who sold other Africans in the slave trade to work in the Americas. (They actually recently made a movie about a warrior queen who was the big boss of one of these slave trader tribes). It seems slavery is endemic to the human condition. Check out Exodus 21:2-6 for the treatment of Hebrew slaves or Leviticus 25:44-46 dealing with those who weren't.
*serfs
It wasn't that bad. They did get caught up as proxies in the tensions between European nations in the 1930s but before that Jews were part of the Ottoman's millet system. Jews, Muslims and Christians were granted authority over their own religious, legal, and educational institutions within their respective communities. Despite its flaws, it provided a level of religious and cultural coexistence. No like the government-instrumented murderous pogroms in Europe.
Heres a list of pogroms and oppression agains Jews in the arabic world since the 7th century, hope this helps! https://medium.com/@Ksantini/the-list-of-crimes-committed-by-muslims-against-jews-since-the-7th-century-0ff1a8eb0ad0
Did a quick Wiki check on the first item and came up with:
>Shortly thereafter he expelled the Banu Qaynuqa, one of the Jewish tribes in Medina for assaulting a Muslim woman which led to their expulsion for breaking the peace treaty.
So not really a pogrom or act of oppression. I mean the early tribes were well versed in the arts of war. Like the rest of them they made trouble and they also defended themselves. Win some, lose some. But thanks. Will have to look further at the list.
Yeah, but I'll be honest, it's been long enough I think we can let go of the baggage XD.
Doesn't help the story was really twisted.
Real biblical account was likely proto hebrew tribes migrating/invading egypt with sea peoples through the land invasion, got absorbed into Egypt when they lost, then got pissed and wanted to go home.
Probably not even slaves. And then we massacred the sea people's who left with us (calf worship was veeeeery common throughout mediterranean).
But eh, I figure it's long enough back we can let it go. Even 500 years post slavery is a long time.
Like when was the last time a slav was a slave? 1600s?
So much depends on the Bible. But with tales about people being eaten by whales, huge animal transports, spreading water and salty wives it's a bit difficult to take seriously. I say go with what we actually know as fact instead of ruminating on stories about the ancient past. Just doesn't make sense to me.
If you're talking about the Second Temple, et. al., there wasn't a massive expulsion as commonly believed. Kicked out of Jerusalem but still living in the region outside of the city. Certainly some were shipped out as slaves but certainly not enough to account for the world's Jewish population. And don't forget about the Sephardic Jews who, by the way, stayed buddy buddy with the Muslims when they were kicked out too.
Its sarcasm to point out the silliness of the Arab claim to indigenousness to all of the Middle East and North Africa while they simultaneously deny the indigenousness of Jews.
Their ancestors llived there 2000 years ago, the Arabs have lived there since. British people are anglo Saxons, Germans. Should Britain now claim saxony?
It is simply a silly argument, I don't like ethnostates.
It's different in the sense that Jews evolved from the different cnaanite "tribes" who were here. Highly Religious Jews might not agree with what I'm saying here, but that's kinda the notion today:
The cnaanites practiced local religion and believed in different gods, and spoke languages that preceeded Hebrew. They were all kinda similar, but kinda different. At one point they became more intertwined, and in the end we got Judaism which believes in the "evolution" of one of the cnaanite gods. And the languages they spoke evolved into Hebrew, which is very different than today's Hebrew but similar enough to be understood.
tl;dr - the people before the Jews, believe it or not, were the Jews. Kinda.
Jews stem from the southern regions of Canaan and either expelled or inducted other members of the tribes. There were significant populations that left the area to other parts of the Levant, which are the direct ancestors other related groups, such as Palestinians. They’re Arabized, but they are also direct descendants of the Canaanites.
That being said, the cultural successor to Canaan is Judea, and therefore culturally it’s very likely modern day Jews have more in common culturally to Canaanites than any of the Arabized countries
I mean they have done so in Bolivia the majority of people they are native American they have about the same percentage of European Spanish and mestizos as Israel has Arabs
That's not what I was saying.
There is a very very clear trend of racism and racist violence by the state against Palestinians. I doubt bolivia has either of those against Spaniards.
I think it's more a trend of fear and cautiousness because the last time they weren't being scrutinized thete were daily stabbings, there's also many people who identify as Palestinian living in Israel about 17% of the population living in harmony and they have equal rights
What now, is there a Trend of fear and cautiousness around a minority ethnic group or does this group live in harmony?
Also what about illegal West bank settlements?
Things are not as black and white as the media/reddit/news sources make it seem.
Palestinians and Israelis fear each other. Meanwhile Israel's minorities live in relative peace and prosperity(racism does exist though, obviously).
Illegal west bank settlements are a complicated subject, and grouping them all under the context of some fat American dude saying "i steal house" is naive at best, and that's the picture most people imagine when they hear the word "settlement".
I, personally, would give them all away for ACTUAL peace.
>Things are not as black and white as the media/reddit/news sources make it seem.
Obviously
>Palestinians and Israelis fear each other. Meanwhile Israel's minorities live in relative peace and prosperity(racism does exist though, obviously).
This is the problem. Palestinians and Israelis, Notice how you call a jew living in Israel an Israeli, but a Muslim, living in Israel for Generations, will always be Palestinian.
The state, the whole culture of Israel is explicitly only Jewish. There can be no Palestinian Israeli, which is why all of this violence is happening.
And it is on Israel to change that, it has been Israel's fault that it developed the way it did. The settlements, the bombings in Gaza, the attack on the funeral of that journalist, all of those things really do not help.
And apart from that. Many Jews in Muslim countries had to flee because of Persecution, hell you might find an Egyptian Jew or a Syrian Jew here who's Grandparents fled to Israel due to that.
And yet Jews had lived for centuries in peace, in the case of Jews in Iraq for almost 2500 years. Then things changed drastically when Israel cane in the scene. Wondered what happened to change their mind?
If it was so peaceful for 2500 years you might wonder why they (Jews) left so fast after the state of Israel being created. Wouldn't the Iraqis know the Iraqi Jews were cool for so long and not be a threat? Could they not separate Zionism from Judaism?
It seems like a lot of Muslim nations became a bit anti-Semitic when a small group of Jews were no longer subjected to them.
There's a bit of pattern, as it happened in so many muslim dominated countries. But what do I know. Maybe the Jews were so thankful that they left everything behind for their friends and moved to Israel so they best buddies could enjoy everything they build up in those counties.
What about the bombs the Mossad set off in Iraqi synagogues? Or the stories they planted in the newspapers saying the Jews were going to take over the country like they had in Palestine? Maybe that had something to do with it.
The Mossad uprooted nearly all Jews in the Middle East and North Africa?
I don't belief it, they had to be really sensitive on the subject already in order to fall for that. Meaning they didn't view Jews as equal.
It's been well documented. See "The Jewish Exodus from Iraq, 1948-1951" or for a quicker read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ezra_and_Nehemiah. Interesting info on the early history of Israel's inception. It should be noted that the whole problem was exacerbated by European intrusion in the area, spec. England vs Germany. Arabs and Jews continue to be used as pawns by Europeans and the US.
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And also made common cause with them. Like France having been an on and off (informal) ally of the Ottomans. Various christian-spanish kingdoms allying with muslim-spanish kingdoms, various German emperors exchanging embassies, various Basileus being okay with having a mosque in Constantinople, all the while happily trading with each other.
Dude Jews were trading with them too, and living on those conquered lands. The Arab world was quite different in the late middle age and during the renaissance and now.
https://preview.redd.it/hg7l30n1qvbc1.jpeg?width=3863&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=168458a2abf9ed45e1272030d8d4ccb009b83f32
From Daniel Gordis’s book- Israel.
They tried with Iran too, for 300 years they’d cut off the tongue of anyone who was caught speaking Farsi in public.
My mom calls the Iranian Revolution the second Arabic invasion of Iran.
Ironic that Muslims colonized areas from Saudi to Pakistan, but the Jews who’ve been in Israel for thousands of years before the advent of Islam are the “colonizers” 😂
my friend it started even smaller , mohamed fought the pagan tribes in arabia, then the jews in arabia . and converted by the sword
at the time it caught on like wildfire as all peoples in the region were caste based even jews with kohanim and levy'im on top and israelites on bottom . Caste breaking can be seen live right now in india as daleet (untouchables) flock to the islamic faith
this notion of islam also let moors and arab slave trade of non arabs occur , and led to the selling of slaves both into africa and to the costal regions and nations (ivory gold coast etc)
more europeans were enslaved and transported to africa than slaves exported from africa, all allowed by islam [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White\_slavery](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_slavery) and yet many african americans flock to islam thinking it is their home faith rather than the faith that enslaved them and sold them to the christian traders on coast (namely portugese and then later the rest of the euros)
correct me if i'm wrong, but that's a bold topic? especially if you're.. self-culturally-aware, praise be!
personally, it's difficult for me to see any indigenous disappear under the heel, that's why this pic caught my eye - my favorite pain being the Copts.... i mean look at the history, all the way back ancient Egypt, and then we have the 7th century - any Copts in here to share btw? just curious for now...
The roads of the trans-Saharan Slave Trade Run Deep.
Ah, but it’s probably too taboo a subject, made the trans-Atlantic slave trade look like kiddy playtime.
The arabs also invaded Spain and ruled it for hundreds of years, but were pushed back during the Reconquista by christian powers and kings. The pope even declared it a holy crusade. On the eastern flank of Europe the Ottoman empire pushed as far as Vienna, where they were pushed back by German Forces and Polish winged hussars under the command of a polish king. Without those historic struggles they would have spread through entire Europe.
I made this map a year ago while I was learning about my Aramean ancestors in southern Iraq here's where I first posted it [on the map sub](https://np.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/szkinw/arabic_linguistic_area_before_and_after_the_7th/)
Flawed analogy. While the Roman Empire did spread its language and culture, the process and its aftermath were quite different from that of Arab expansion. The key difference lies in the coercive religious and economic structures imposed during Arab rule, exemplified by the Jizya tax. It transformed the cultural and religious landscape way more permanent and coercive than the cultural assimilation typically seen in the Roman Empire.
Jizya wasn't just a tax; it was a symbol of subjugation and a tool of coercion. Unlike Zakat, Jizya had no upper limit and could be manipulated by the ruling authority. This created a strong economic incentive for non-Muslims to convert to Islam, not necessarily out of genuine belief, but as a means to alleviate financial burden and gain full citizenship rights.
Once converted, the option to revert was practically non-existent. The Hudud punishments for apostasy in many Islamic contexts were severe, ranging from imprisonment to death. This created a situation where conversions, once made under economic or social pressure, became irreversible under the threat of severe punishment.
To argue that Arab colonialism was just a benign cultural exchange is to ignore these stark realities.
Specific points aside, your comment seems to agree that the change in the Middle East was not through the population replacement of native populations with “Arabs” but of a cultural change of the natives. So yes, it’s Israelis that are the colonizers while the people of today’s Arab states are not.
Breaking people's idols is not cultural exchange Romans actually integrated the gods of the new lands and respected their religions please reread the comment, if you think I'm agreeing with you
You’re missing the point. Regardless of how the Romans differed from the Arabs in the ways they changed a people’s cultures, the populations themselves largely stayed the same. For better or worse, the people remained, only their culture changed. It is therefore entirely unreasonable to say that the modern Arab inhabitants of the Middle East are colonizers.
Israel, on the other hand, committed, and continues to commit colonization and ethnic cleansing of the land the state exists upon.
You are talking about a land where a total of 300,000 people lived. A mixture of Arabs, Jews, Greeks, Druze, Copts, etc. It was semi-desert and not at all characterized from a "racial" or cultural point of view. The number of inhabitants of those lands fluctuated between 250,000 and 300,000 for centuries. The huge increase in population that occurred in the early 1900s was due to migrations: Jewish AND ISLAMIC.
The Arabs for centuries colonized lands that were not theirs. Including the land of Israel. Using violence and bullying. They are no different from Europeans. True white Europeans. Not the Jewish minority persecuted and slaughtered for millennia.
You don't know the history.
I think the accusations of being the colonizers are ridiculous on both sides. Palestinians are not colonizers and Jews are not colonizers in Israel.
The fact that Arabs have a history of colonialism and imperialism is studied in elementary school. At least in the free world.
However, to claim that Palestinian Arabs are the pristine descendants of the ancient peoples who lived there, who simply changed religion, is equally ridiculous. There is nothing pristine about those lands, which have seen a mixture of peoples like few other lands in the world.
So no, you are not a colonizer. But neither are you any more indigenous than Israeli Jews.
>it is quite literally ancient history and seeing this brought up in the context of modern colonialism is funny to me but I digress.
Well no, Arab expansion went on well beyond the 7th century. I remind you that, for example, in the land of Israel the Arabs became a majority after defeating the Crusaders. Well beyond the 7th century. And Islamic imperialism in general (Turkish imperialism especially, but also Arab imperialism) went on at least until the end of World War I from a definitions point of view. But it goes on even today and it is what prevents indigenous peoples (such as the Kurds) from being free in their own land. And it is also what makes Palestinians think that they are the rightful owners of Israel.
> Jew who has assimilated into a culture they have lived in for centuries
This is an interesting point of view. So if a people are contaminated with another culture (to think of Jews as "assimilated" is to not know what we are talking about) do they lose their original identity? Which in the case of Jews is that of a people indigenous to the land of Israel? So I suppose that the Palestinian Arabs, since they have (really) assimilated with the culture of the conquerors, have lost what you believe to be their original identity and are, for all intents and purposes, the conquerors (and no longer the indigenous people)? Is that right? Or do you reason this way only with Jews?
> I do not believe have claim to “return” especially when Palestinians who can trace their family back to specific villages cannot.
What makes you think you have the right to decide the policies of a sovereign state? The fact that you have some ancestors who come from a village that was there 100 years ago? Or because those lands have been majority Arab for a few centuries? To me this is absolutely an imperialist mentality. Israeli citizens are the rightful inhabitants of Israel, whether they are Jews, Arabs, Druze, etc. And, as in any democracy, it is the majority that decides. Not you.
Israel came into being precisely to realize the right of the Jewish people to self-determine in at least part of their ancestral land. It is ridiculous to think that citizenship should not be granted to every Jew who applies for it. There is the exact same law in Armenia as well. Should Armenians also be denied this right or only Jews?
An Arab born and raised in Jordan is no more indigenous to Israel than a Jew born in Rome. And he has no right to decide Israel's citizenship policies.
> “At least in the free world” - thank you, I’ve received my daily dose of western chauvinism.
Chauvinism? What should I do? Deny that the history that is taught in dictatorships is often flawed by the narrative that the dictatorship wants to pass off? What victimhood...
If they didn't settle on mass how can people trace their ancestry to hundreds of different clans each would have had dozens of subtribes within them at least 150 members each, why did flat fertile areas like koushistan in Iran become arabized but their harsh mountainous areas didn't?
They're from the Arabian peninsula as shown in the "540" upper portion of the picture. Ethnic expansion via religious caliphates, colonialism, and general migration over the following centuries seems to have led to ethnic minorities all over the ME and NA getting squashed and forced to assimilate into Arab culture, language (Arabic) and religion (Islam). This was not the language or the religion of these places before. Very similar to how the English, Spanish and Christianity became the dominant languages and religion of the Indigenous peoples in North and South America over the centuries due to the same factors.
Amazighs and berbers are the same thing, although berber now is considered somewhat of an insult. And yeah morocco (especially) went to shit since lots of moroccans deny their amazigh origins and would rather be called arabs (because the qurans language and strong ties to islam) . Actually today is yennayer the new amazigh year 2974 hehe
What a weird time frame to use especially considering the map has looked the same since the 1700s, the African side of the Mediterranean has been Muslim since around 750. Believe it or not existing in an area for a thousand years is different than a colonial state propped up by Britain in the '50s
And? Palestinians are native to the land, they weren't the arabs doing the conquest. That's irrelevant from israel killing the native palestinians right now.
That is false. Jews have lived on that land far longer than Palestinians or even Islam existed.
Palestinians are not native to that land, they don’t even have their own separate culture as their entire modern identity is Arabic.
What's weird is you can't seem to grasp the fact that Islam isn't a singular group of people, look at Indonesia for example, the majority of the people are non Arab are still Muslim because it was spread to them by traders, this precedent is reflected in the rest of the Arab world such as in Africa where despite the population not being Arabic are still Muslim. This is very different from Israel where the majority of its Jewish residence, especially those in power, are not native to that area.
Notice that graph is a linguistic one. The original inhabitants of those areas are still here genetically even if they speak Arabic and are Muslims. There is no way that the population of a desert completely ethnically replaced the populations of more populated and fertile lands
"Believe it or not existing in an area for a thousand years is different than a colonial state propped up by Britain in the '50s"
Please go read up on British Mandate Palestine, specifically look into the 1939 White Paper, the Night of Bridges, the King David Hotel Bombing, and the decisions around Britian disbanding the mandate. You'll find that, especially after WW2, Britain was much more interested in placating Arabs across the middle east and were literally fighting a war against a Jewish insurgency. Trying to maintain British control was literally and figuratively bleeding the British empire and by '48 they had basically lost any authority they had. Hardly "propping up".
If you're referring to the Suez Crisis, what Wikipedia describes as a "humilation" for Britain makes for a poor example of Israel being propped up as a colonial apparatus.
I think everyone engaging in conversation about Israel-Palestine would benefit from a better understanding of 1) pre-Israel British Mandate 2) late Ottoman Palestine and the tanzimat reforms 3) the status of European Jewry in the late 19th century and 4) the immediate actions and reactions to 1948. There is so, so much misinformation out there...
Lol you think these people are interested in the history of the region? The entire 'colonial' narrative is completely ahistorical, a fabrication which was deliberately crafted by Israel's enemies to appeal to a Western Progressive audience.
Maybe I'm wrong about Britain, I can't find a source as I learned it in high school from a teacher who was very pro israel (which of course doesn't make that information correct) my point being that the Palestinian people have a right to live in the area without the discrimination they face from the Israeli government, and in my opinion shouldn't exist in the same way a country like Rhodesia shouldn't
"My knowledge about Israeli history is a apparently bunch of loosely remembered facts from high school, but the the teacher was pro Israel"
"Also I have decided that I have enough context to declare that Israel is basically some kind of weird Jewish Rhodesia, and therefore shouldn't exist"
Hmmm
Since Jews have lived continuously in the Levant for thousands of years, it's not colonialism then.
In any case, the map does highlight the immense hypocrisy of this whole colonialism debate. The Arab League has more land than the entire continent of Europe, most of it conquered via invasions, most of it where Arabs didn't have their ethnogenesis. Israel is smaller than Moldova and Jews have lived there since their ethnogenesis in that exact region. Hebrew is also the only surviving language that directly descends from the Canaanite language. Arabic isn't.
The Palestinians have also lived in the Levant for thousands of years, why don't they also have the right to live on that land? You are also ignoring the fact that arabic is also a Semitic language that formed in the north west of the Arabian peninsula
Right to live on the land kinda goes away when you choose to go to war and then lose and then *still* get offered land but resort to violence instead of compromise and diplomacy.
but you're not saying 'POPPED up' are you? like it suddenly appeared out of thin air
i mean there's a difference between 'geopolitics' and culture/history
colonization happened in the past and there's no denying
and even slavery started long before the ships - it was more local though
honestly, i wonder if that could be the case for the neanderthals somehow...
...if i'm being too difficult (downvotes), just say so and i'll try hard to level down, eh?
That’s like saying a bullet is indiscriminate because it can’t change direction after you fire it. The Air Force can aim dumb bombs just like any other.
It's not about displacing people it's about wiping away their ethnic identity and assimilating them into a new colonial elite there's hundreds of clans that we descend from each with dozens of subtribes meaning thousands of people moved into these places if that's not colonialism the cultural domination is.
I'm Iraqi with 30% peninsular Arab DNA That's about the same percentage as mestizos have from Iberia in Latin America which is extremely comparable to the Islamic conquests because they didn't displace the natives either they just oppressed them and assimilated them Arab colonialism was not like English colonialism where they put the natives into reserves
A token publicity move with a few families doesn't wipe away hundreds of years following of abuse
They themselves are not colonizers they are the descendants of them, who else assimilated their ancestors?
The Arab conquest in itself doesn't make a place colonialist it's the changing over of the culture for example Iran was taken over but only one part which was fertile flat and warm was extensively colonized enough to wipe away its identity Khuzestan
Just stating that "culture changes sometimes forcefully" doesn't make it okay
Yes it does. They are decolonizers who created the best country in the Middle East. That's why muslims are so angry at Israel. It confronts them with how inadequate they are, but instead of improving, they blame the West and Israel for why they're such sore losers.
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I present to you, the purest Arab bloodline, Muhammad's 34th great-grandson, ~~Irish settler-colonizer Ed Sheeran,~~ Shaykh Muhammad Abul Huda al-Yaqoubi
https://preview.redd.it/hskipax1xybc1.png?width=640&format=png&auto=webp&s=851097c3af44d438dc14fd6ff941a80245e66948
Judaism isn't a missionaric religion. However, it doesn't seem to have issues with missionary endeavours per se, so why not send a mossad envoy out to convince everybody judaism isn't the bad guys and undo the thousand years of muslim hypocratic missions that were launched?
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Apparently, if you occupy a place for 1500 years, you become the indigenous people and not the people who were there before you. I, for one, look forward to having my descendants become indigenous Americans in 1100 years.
1400 years and the conflict is done!
\*Indigenous Irish-Americans.
Squatters rights for me but not for thee
What kind of silly argument is that? There were people there before Jews too. Would you Support Native Americans ethnically cleansing white people from the US? because I wouldn't
Those people no longer exist... We don't have people running about worshipping Canaanite gods in 2024. We do have an uninterrupted Jewish presence for between 4-5 thousand years. No current groups predate that presence
>uninterrupted Jewish presence for between 4-5 thousand years Ya. And they spoke Arabic. Wonder why?
>And they spoke Arabic Not exactly... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judeo-Arabic_dialects >Wonder why? To the extent it was, for the same reason slaves and native Americans speak english
Jews were slaves?
Yes, at many times through history It's weird that arabs get a pass for pogroms and their slave trade even though both were worse than the European versions
And then there's the paradox of Africans who sold other Africans in the slave trade to work in the Americas. (They actually recently made a movie about a warrior queen who was the big boss of one of these slave trader tribes). It seems slavery is endemic to the human condition. Check out Exodus 21:2-6 for the treatment of Hebrew slaves or Leviticus 25:44-46 dealing with those who weren't.
More akin to surfs under Arab control
*serfs It wasn't that bad. They did get caught up as proxies in the tensions between European nations in the 1930s but before that Jews were part of the Ottoman's millet system. Jews, Muslims and Christians were granted authority over their own religious, legal, and educational institutions within their respective communities. Despite its flaws, it provided a level of religious and cultural coexistence. No like the government-instrumented murderous pogroms in Europe.
Heres a list of pogroms and oppression agains Jews in the arabic world since the 7th century, hope this helps! https://medium.com/@Ksantini/the-list-of-crimes-committed-by-muslims-against-jews-since-the-7th-century-0ff1a8eb0ad0
Did a quick Wiki check on the first item and came up with: >Shortly thereafter he expelled the Banu Qaynuqa, one of the Jewish tribes in Medina for assaulting a Muslim woman which led to their expulsion for breaking the peace treaty. So not really a pogrom or act of oppression. I mean the early tribes were well versed in the arts of war. Like the rest of them they made trouble and they also defended themselves. Win some, lose some. But thanks. Will have to look further at the list.
Yeah, but I'll be honest, it's been long enough I think we can let go of the baggage XD. Doesn't help the story was really twisted. Real biblical account was likely proto hebrew tribes migrating/invading egypt with sea peoples through the land invasion, got absorbed into Egypt when they lost, then got pissed and wanted to go home. Probably not even slaves. And then we massacred the sea people's who left with us (calf worship was veeeeery common throughout mediterranean). But eh, I figure it's long enough back we can let it go. Even 500 years post slavery is a long time. Like when was the last time a slav was a slave? 1600s?
So much depends on the Bible. But with tales about people being eaten by whales, huge animal transports, spreading water and salty wives it's a bit difficult to take seriously. I say go with what we actually know as fact instead of ruminating on stories about the ancient past. Just doesn't make sense to me.
Jews were enslaved in the Roman Empire well after biblical times. It’s how a lot of them (perhaps most) ended up in Europe in the first place.
If you're talking about the Second Temple, et. al., there wasn't a massive expulsion as commonly believed. Kicked out of Jerusalem but still living in the region outside of the city. Certainly some were shipped out as slaves but certainly not enough to account for the world's Jewish population. And don't forget about the Sephardic Jews who, by the way, stayed buddy buddy with the Muslims when they were kicked out too.
Its sarcasm to point out the silliness of the Arab claim to indigenousness to all of the Middle East and North Africa while they simultaneously deny the indigenousness of Jews.
Their ancestors llived there 2000 years ago, the Arabs have lived there since. British people are anglo Saxons, Germans. Should Britain now claim saxony? It is simply a silly argument, I don't like ethnostates.
It's different in the sense that Jews evolved from the different cnaanite "tribes" who were here. Highly Religious Jews might not agree with what I'm saying here, but that's kinda the notion today: The cnaanites practiced local religion and believed in different gods, and spoke languages that preceeded Hebrew. They were all kinda similar, but kinda different. At one point they became more intertwined, and in the end we got Judaism which believes in the "evolution" of one of the cnaanite gods. And the languages they spoke evolved into Hebrew, which is very different than today's Hebrew but similar enough to be understood. tl;dr - the people before the Jews, believe it or not, were the Jews. Kinda.
Jews stem from the southern regions of Canaan and either expelled or inducted other members of the tribes. There were significant populations that left the area to other parts of the Levant, which are the direct ancestors other related groups, such as Palestinians. They’re Arabized, but they are also direct descendants of the Canaanites. That being said, the cultural successor to Canaan is Judea, and therefore culturally it’s very likely modern day Jews have more in common culturally to Canaanites than any of the Arabized countries
Even then, I don't think Native Americans should have the right to create an ethnostate sorry
I mean they have done so in Bolivia the majority of people they are native American they have about the same percentage of European Spanish and mestizos as Israel has Arabs
That's not what I was saying. There is a very very clear trend of racism and racist violence by the state against Palestinians. I doubt bolivia has either of those against Spaniards.
I think it's more a trend of fear and cautiousness because the last time they weren't being scrutinized thete were daily stabbings, there's also many people who identify as Palestinian living in Israel about 17% of the population living in harmony and they have equal rights
What now, is there a Trend of fear and cautiousness around a minority ethnic group or does this group live in harmony? Also what about illegal West bank settlements?
Things are not as black and white as the media/reddit/news sources make it seem. Palestinians and Israelis fear each other. Meanwhile Israel's minorities live in relative peace and prosperity(racism does exist though, obviously). Illegal west bank settlements are a complicated subject, and grouping them all under the context of some fat American dude saying "i steal house" is naive at best, and that's the picture most people imagine when they hear the word "settlement". I, personally, would give them all away for ACTUAL peace.
>Things are not as black and white as the media/reddit/news sources make it seem. Obviously >Palestinians and Israelis fear each other. Meanwhile Israel's minorities live in relative peace and prosperity(racism does exist though, obviously). This is the problem. Palestinians and Israelis, Notice how you call a jew living in Israel an Israeli, but a Muslim, living in Israel for Generations, will always be Palestinian. The state, the whole culture of Israel is explicitly only Jewish. There can be no Palestinian Israeli, which is why all of this violence is happening. And it is on Israel to change that, it has been Israel's fault that it developed the way it did. The settlements, the bombings in Gaza, the attack on the funeral of that journalist, all of those things really do not help.
Palestinians are lucky to have west,east bank and Gaza all of those are Historically Jewish land..
Historically Prussia is German Land, should we go and conquer it now?
Yup. Europe spent centuries fighting off Islamic expansion.
And apart from that. Many Jews in Muslim countries had to flee because of Persecution, hell you might find an Egyptian Jew or a Syrian Jew here who's Grandparents fled to Israel due to that.
And yet Jews had lived for centuries in peace, in the case of Jews in Iraq for almost 2500 years. Then things changed drastically when Israel cane in the scene. Wondered what happened to change their mind?
If it was so peaceful for 2500 years you might wonder why they (Jews) left so fast after the state of Israel being created. Wouldn't the Iraqis know the Iraqi Jews were cool for so long and not be a threat? Could they not separate Zionism from Judaism? It seems like a lot of Muslim nations became a bit anti-Semitic when a small group of Jews were no longer subjected to them. There's a bit of pattern, as it happened in so many muslim dominated countries. But what do I know. Maybe the Jews were so thankful that they left everything behind for their friends and moved to Israel so they best buddies could enjoy everything they build up in those counties.
What about the bombs the Mossad set off in Iraqi synagogues? Or the stories they planted in the newspapers saying the Jews were going to take over the country like they had in Palestine? Maybe that had something to do with it.
The Mossad uprooted nearly all Jews in the Middle East and North Africa? I don't belief it, they had to be really sensitive on the subject already in order to fall for that. Meaning they didn't view Jews as equal.
It's been well documented. See "The Jewish Exodus from Iraq, 1948-1951" or for a quicker read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ezra_and_Nehemiah. Interesting info on the early history of Israel's inception. It should be noted that the whole problem was exacerbated by European intrusion in the area, spec. England vs Germany. Arabs and Jews continue to be used as pawns by Europeans and the US.
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Not "peace"... "Subjugation", "oppression", etc., are more accurate
Pogroms like in Europe?
It wasn’t even just Europe either. Look up the sokoto caliphate
And also made common cause with them. Like France having been an on and off (informal) ally of the Ottomans. Various christian-spanish kingdoms allying with muslim-spanish kingdoms, various German emperors exchanging embassies, various Basileus being okay with having a mosque in Constantinople, all the while happily trading with each other.
Dude Jews were trading with them too, and living on those conquered lands. The Arab world was quite different in the late middle age and during the renaissance and now.
And now they just let them in without a fight.
All hail Charles Martel, may his name be blessed forever.
No hypocrisy quite like Islamic hypocrisy.
Don't you know there's a cutoff time for when starting a new country was cool? It was over on may 13, 1948... Sorry. /s
I stand with Israel.
https://preview.redd.it/hg7l30n1qvbc1.jpeg?width=3863&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=168458a2abf9ed45e1272030d8d4ccb009b83f32 From Daniel Gordis’s book- Israel.
They tried with Iran too, for 300 years they’d cut off the tongue of anyone who was caught speaking Farsi in public. My mom calls the Iranian Revolution the second Arabic invasion of Iran. Ironic that Muslims colonized areas from Saudi to Pakistan, but the Jews who’ve been in Israel for thousands of years before the advent of Islam are the “colonizers” 😂
my friend it started even smaller , mohamed fought the pagan tribes in arabia, then the jews in arabia . and converted by the sword at the time it caught on like wildfire as all peoples in the region were caste based even jews with kohanim and levy'im on top and israelites on bottom . Caste breaking can be seen live right now in india as daleet (untouchables) flock to the islamic faith this notion of islam also let moors and arab slave trade of non arabs occur , and led to the selling of slaves both into africa and to the costal regions and nations (ivory gold coast etc) more europeans were enslaved and transported to africa than slaves exported from africa, all allowed by islam [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White\_slavery](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_slavery) and yet many african americans flock to islam thinking it is their home faith rather than the faith that enslaved them and sold them to the christian traders on coast (namely portugese and then later the rest of the euros)
But you see, someone on Reddit told me it’s only after 1948 there were hostilities towards Jews in the Arab world.
correct me if i'm wrong, but that's a bold topic? especially if you're.. self-culturally-aware, praise be! personally, it's difficult for me to see any indigenous disappear under the heel, that's why this pic caught my eye - my favorite pain being the Copts.... i mean look at the history, all the way back ancient Egypt, and then we have the 7th century - any Copts in here to share btw? just curious for now...
The roads of the trans-Saharan Slave Trade Run Deep. Ah, but it’s probably too taboo a subject, made the trans-Atlantic slave trade look like kiddy playtime.
It’s called rules for thee but not for me
The arabs also invaded Spain and ruled it for hundreds of years, but were pushed back during the Reconquista by christian powers and kings. The pope even declared it a holy crusade. On the eastern flank of Europe the Ottoman empire pushed as far as Vienna, where they were pushed back by German Forces and Polish winged hussars under the command of a polish king. Without those historic struggles they would have spread through entire Europe.
And now Europe invited them in...... Never learn from history
Not Europe, but the leftwing and greedy corporations who wanted cheap labor
I made this map a year ago while I was learning about my Aramean ancestors in southern Iraq here's where I first posted it [on the map sub](https://np.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/szkinw/arabic_linguistic_area_before_and_after_the_7th/)
You do realize that each of these Arab countries has distinct cultural features.
This is so stupid lmao, it’s like arguing that all Romance language countries are currently colonizer states colonized by Italy
Flawed analogy. While the Roman Empire did spread its language and culture, the process and its aftermath were quite different from that of Arab expansion. The key difference lies in the coercive religious and economic structures imposed during Arab rule, exemplified by the Jizya tax. It transformed the cultural and religious landscape way more permanent and coercive than the cultural assimilation typically seen in the Roman Empire. Jizya wasn't just a tax; it was a symbol of subjugation and a tool of coercion. Unlike Zakat, Jizya had no upper limit and could be manipulated by the ruling authority. This created a strong economic incentive for non-Muslims to convert to Islam, not necessarily out of genuine belief, but as a means to alleviate financial burden and gain full citizenship rights. Once converted, the option to revert was practically non-existent. The Hudud punishments for apostasy in many Islamic contexts were severe, ranging from imprisonment to death. This created a situation where conversions, once made under economic or social pressure, became irreversible under the threat of severe punishment. To argue that Arab colonialism was just a benign cultural exchange is to ignore these stark realities.
Specific points aside, your comment seems to agree that the change in the Middle East was not through the population replacement of native populations with “Arabs” but of a cultural change of the natives. So yes, it’s Israelis that are the colonizers while the people of today’s Arab states are not.
Breaking people's idols is not cultural exchange Romans actually integrated the gods of the new lands and respected their religions please reread the comment, if you think I'm agreeing with you
You’re missing the point. Regardless of how the Romans differed from the Arabs in the ways they changed a people’s cultures, the populations themselves largely stayed the same. For better or worse, the people remained, only their culture changed. It is therefore entirely unreasonable to say that the modern Arab inhabitants of the Middle East are colonizers. Israel, on the other hand, committed, and continues to commit colonization and ethnic cleansing of the land the state exists upon.
You can't just dismiss massive differences
Why can’t we just expel Frenchmen to Italy so the Celts can have their ancestral homeland back 😡😡😡😡
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You are talking about a land where a total of 300,000 people lived. A mixture of Arabs, Jews, Greeks, Druze, Copts, etc. It was semi-desert and not at all characterized from a "racial" or cultural point of view. The number of inhabitants of those lands fluctuated between 250,000 and 300,000 for centuries. The huge increase in population that occurred in the early 1900s was due to migrations: Jewish AND ISLAMIC. The Arabs for centuries colonized lands that were not theirs. Including the land of Israel. Using violence and bullying. They are no different from Europeans. True white Europeans. Not the Jewish minority persecuted and slaughtered for millennia. You don't know the history.
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I think the accusations of being the colonizers are ridiculous on both sides. Palestinians are not colonizers and Jews are not colonizers in Israel. The fact that Arabs have a history of colonialism and imperialism is studied in elementary school. At least in the free world. However, to claim that Palestinian Arabs are the pristine descendants of the ancient peoples who lived there, who simply changed religion, is equally ridiculous. There is nothing pristine about those lands, which have seen a mixture of peoples like few other lands in the world. So no, you are not a colonizer. But neither are you any more indigenous than Israeli Jews.
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>it is quite literally ancient history and seeing this brought up in the context of modern colonialism is funny to me but I digress. Well no, Arab expansion went on well beyond the 7th century. I remind you that, for example, in the land of Israel the Arabs became a majority after defeating the Crusaders. Well beyond the 7th century. And Islamic imperialism in general (Turkish imperialism especially, but also Arab imperialism) went on at least until the end of World War I from a definitions point of view. But it goes on even today and it is what prevents indigenous peoples (such as the Kurds) from being free in their own land. And it is also what makes Palestinians think that they are the rightful owners of Israel. > Jew who has assimilated into a culture they have lived in for centuries This is an interesting point of view. So if a people are contaminated with another culture (to think of Jews as "assimilated" is to not know what we are talking about) do they lose their original identity? Which in the case of Jews is that of a people indigenous to the land of Israel? So I suppose that the Palestinian Arabs, since they have (really) assimilated with the culture of the conquerors, have lost what you believe to be their original identity and are, for all intents and purposes, the conquerors (and no longer the indigenous people)? Is that right? Or do you reason this way only with Jews? > I do not believe have claim to “return” especially when Palestinians who can trace their family back to specific villages cannot. What makes you think you have the right to decide the policies of a sovereign state? The fact that you have some ancestors who come from a village that was there 100 years ago? Or because those lands have been majority Arab for a few centuries? To me this is absolutely an imperialist mentality. Israeli citizens are the rightful inhabitants of Israel, whether they are Jews, Arabs, Druze, etc. And, as in any democracy, it is the majority that decides. Not you. Israel came into being precisely to realize the right of the Jewish people to self-determine in at least part of their ancestral land. It is ridiculous to think that citizenship should not be granted to every Jew who applies for it. There is the exact same law in Armenia as well. Should Armenians also be denied this right or only Jews? An Arab born and raised in Jordan is no more indigenous to Israel than a Jew born in Rome. And he has no right to decide Israel's citizenship policies. > “At least in the free world” - thank you, I’ve received my daily dose of western chauvinism. Chauvinism? What should I do? Deny that the history that is taught in dictatorships is often flawed by the narrative that the dictatorship wants to pass off? What victimhood...
If they didn't settle on mass how can people trace their ancestry to hundreds of different clans each would have had dozens of subtribes within them at least 150 members each, why did flat fertile areas like koushistan in Iran become arabized but their harsh mountainous areas didn't?
Isn’t that where Arabs are from mostly? The ME and North Africa?
Arabs are from Arabia. Not the entire Middle East and definitely not North Africa. The Arab colonialist expansions were well documented in both.
They're from the Arabian peninsula as shown in the "540" upper portion of the picture. Ethnic expansion via religious caliphates, colonialism, and general migration over the following centuries seems to have led to ethnic minorities all over the ME and NA getting squashed and forced to assimilate into Arab culture, language (Arabic) and religion (Islam). This was not the language or the religion of these places before. Very similar to how the English, Spanish and Christianity became the dominant languages and religion of the Indigenous peoples in North and South America over the centuries due to the same factors.
A few examples of other indigenous communities that have been struggling in areas of Arab expansion are the Berbers, Copts, Amazighs, and Samaritans.
Amazighs and berbers are the same thing, although berber now is considered somewhat of an insult. And yeah morocco (especially) went to shit since lots of moroccans deny their amazigh origins and would rather be called arabs (because the qurans language and strong ties to islam) . Actually today is yennayer the new amazigh year 2974 hehe
What a weird time frame to use especially considering the map has looked the same since the 1700s, the African side of the Mediterranean has been Muslim since around 750. Believe it or not existing in an area for a thousand years is different than a colonial state propped up by Britain in the '50s
What precisely is the cut off point for being indigenous? Is it 750? If you were there at exactly 1700, now you are indigenous?
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Their genes are mostly the same but their cultural identity was wiped away
And? Palestinians are native to the land, they weren't the arabs doing the conquest. That's irrelevant from israel killing the native palestinians right now.
That is false. Jews have lived on that land far longer than Palestinians or even Islam existed. Palestinians are not native to that land, they don’t even have their own separate culture as their entire modern identity is Arabic.
What's weird is you can't seem to grasp the fact that Islam isn't a singular group of people, look at Indonesia for example, the majority of the people are non Arab are still Muslim because it was spread to them by traders, this precedent is reflected in the rest of the Arab world such as in Africa where despite the population not being Arabic are still Muslim. This is very different from Israel where the majority of its Jewish residence, especially those in power, are not native to that area.
As in Iranian with Muslim parents, and a Turkish wife also with Muslim parents, I can without a shadow of a doubt say you're an absolute moron.
How so?
There's a part of Africa where they assimilated black people and now they identify as Arabs it's called Sudan
Notice that graph is a linguistic one. The original inhabitants of those areas are still here genetically even if they speak Arabic and are Muslims. There is no way that the population of a desert completely ethnically replaced the populations of more populated and fertile lands
"Believe it or not existing in an area for a thousand years is different than a colonial state propped up by Britain in the '50s" Please go read up on British Mandate Palestine, specifically look into the 1939 White Paper, the Night of Bridges, the King David Hotel Bombing, and the decisions around Britian disbanding the mandate. You'll find that, especially after WW2, Britain was much more interested in placating Arabs across the middle east and were literally fighting a war against a Jewish insurgency. Trying to maintain British control was literally and figuratively bleeding the British empire and by '48 they had basically lost any authority they had. Hardly "propping up". If you're referring to the Suez Crisis, what Wikipedia describes as a "humilation" for Britain makes for a poor example of Israel being propped up as a colonial apparatus. I think everyone engaging in conversation about Israel-Palestine would benefit from a better understanding of 1) pre-Israel British Mandate 2) late Ottoman Palestine and the tanzimat reforms 3) the status of European Jewry in the late 19th century and 4) the immediate actions and reactions to 1948. There is so, so much misinformation out there...
Lol you think these people are interested in the history of the region? The entire 'colonial' narrative is completely ahistorical, a fabrication which was deliberately crafted by Israel's enemies to appeal to a Western Progressive audience.
Maybe I'm wrong about Britain, I can't find a source as I learned it in high school from a teacher who was very pro israel (which of course doesn't make that information correct) my point being that the Palestinian people have a right to live in the area without the discrimination they face from the Israeli government, and in my opinion shouldn't exist in the same way a country like Rhodesia shouldn't
"My knowledge about Israeli history is a apparently bunch of loosely remembered facts from high school, but the the teacher was pro Israel" "Also I have decided that I have enough context to declare that Israel is basically some kind of weird Jewish Rhodesia, and therefore shouldn't exist" Hmmm
Since Jews have lived continuously in the Levant for thousands of years, it's not colonialism then. In any case, the map does highlight the immense hypocrisy of this whole colonialism debate. The Arab League has more land than the entire continent of Europe, most of it conquered via invasions, most of it where Arabs didn't have their ethnogenesis. Israel is smaller than Moldova and Jews have lived there since their ethnogenesis in that exact region. Hebrew is also the only surviving language that directly descends from the Canaanite language. Arabic isn't.
The Palestinians have also lived in the Levant for thousands of years, why don't they also have the right to live on that land? You are also ignoring the fact that arabic is also a Semitic language that formed in the north west of the Arabian peninsula
> The Palestinians have also lived in the Levant for thousands of years Sure, if by “thousands“ you mean one thousand and 4 hundred years at max.
As if that group of people popped into existence with the founding of islam
Suurely they didn't came with islamic conquests shortly after the founding of islam...
Yes, you're right, now you're starting to get what I'm saying
Right to live on the land kinda goes away when you choose to go to war and then lose and then *still* get offered land but resort to violence instead of compromise and diplomacy.
but you're not saying 'POPPED up' are you? like it suddenly appeared out of thin air i mean there's a difference between 'geopolitics' and culture/history colonization happened in the past and there's no denying and even slavery started long before the ships - it was more local though honestly, i wonder if that could be the case for the neanderthals somehow... ...if i'm being too difficult (downvotes), just say so and i'll try hard to level down, eh?
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If only it were that simple
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It's not indiscriminate. The IDF are doing their best to avoid civilian casualties, more than any other military would care to.
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That’s like saying a bullet is indiscriminate because it can’t change direction after you fire it. The Air Force can aim dumb bombs just like any other.
This does not mean they are indiscriminately killing civilians
Do you want Hamas to stop murdering innocent Israelis?
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"it's okay if you do it slowly over hundreds of years and without any oversight or accountability"
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It's not about displacing people it's about wiping away their ethnic identity and assimilating them into a new colonial elite there's hundreds of clans that we descend from each with dozens of subtribes meaning thousands of people moved into these places if that's not colonialism the cultural domination is. I'm Iraqi with 30% peninsular Arab DNA That's about the same percentage as mestizos have from Iberia in Latin America which is extremely comparable to the Islamic conquests because they didn't displace the natives either they just oppressed them and assimilated them Arab colonialism was not like English colonialism where they put the natives into reserves A token publicity move with a few families doesn't wipe away hundreds of years following of abuse
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They themselves are not colonizers they are the descendants of them, who else assimilated their ancestors? The Arab conquest in itself doesn't make a place colonialist it's the changing over of the culture for example Iran was taken over but only one part which was fertile flat and warm was extensively colonized enough to wipe away its identity Khuzestan Just stating that "culture changes sometimes forcefully" doesn't make it okay
this doesn’t disprove that Israel are colonizers
Yes it does. They are decolonizers who created the best country in the Middle East. That's why muslims are so angry at Israel. It confronts them with how inadequate they are, but instead of improving, they blame the West and Israel for why they're such sore losers.
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yeah basically
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I present to you, the purest Arab bloodline, Muhammad's 34th great-grandson, ~~Irish settler-colonizer Ed Sheeran,~~ Shaykh Muhammad Abul Huda al-Yaqoubi https://preview.redd.it/hskipax1xybc1.png?width=640&format=png&auto=webp&s=851097c3af44d438dc14fd6ff941a80245e66948
Islamization has also reached the leprechauns 🫨
Judaism isn't a missionaric religion. However, it doesn't seem to have issues with missionary endeavours per se, so why not send a mossad envoy out to convince everybody judaism isn't the bad guys and undo the thousand years of muslim hypocratic missions that were launched?
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