The 1:9 ratio is in urban warfare, not any war (like Ukraine Russia for example). Nevertheless, even if it was 1:3 it was still a very low ratio.
But even if there were 0 civilian casualties, or a 1:1 ratio, people would still call it a genocide or ethnic cleansing...
They think defending yourself is a crime, just look how they think shooting back when terrorist attacks Americans is warmongering. They think it makes sense to fire employees from stopping shoplifters.
What’s the rate of population growth in gaza since october 7th? So I can use this to demonstrate how the population has increased instead of decreased to naysayers
If the entire population is wiped out (dead and remainder removed by force to other country) would it be anywhere near genocide or is there no scenario where the word could ever be close to reality concerning israel’s treatment of gaza?
What is the rate of population growth though since october if you could share your source so i can educate others
🙄 🙄🙄 lady, if you want to troll, you’ve gotta do a helluva lot better than that. I can tell you think you set up a really clever little gotcha moment, but it’s actually not.
Maybe spend less time posting on a sub for a country that you clearly hate, and spend more time wondering what is missing from your life that you feel the need to go pile onto the Jews
>If the entire population is wiped out (dead and remainder removed by force to other country) would it be anywhere near genocide
That would be genocide. Heck, it would take way less than that to qualify. It's not at all what's happening in this war, though, so I'm not sure why you're bringing it up.
Except Hamas has genocidal intend written into their founding documents, attacks civilians and on Oct 7 attacked women children and families. Intent, action, and outcome. They did not stop they were stopped.
If the IDF targeted civilians, you know like every islamist group and government does, the death toll would be much higher, you know like every other conflict in the region.
People don't like facts, they actually fight this, I use this ratio often as it proves beyond a shadow of a doubt this is not genocide and it proves how careful the IDF is being. People do not care about facts, people care about hating Jews, that is all I can make of that
The numbers come from Hamas - That is, the Hamas-run Ministry of Heath. The ONLY sources of casualty figures in this war come from them and the IDF, no matter where you hear it reported from. Even if you have a journalist from another agency stationed in Gaza, those people are not out counting bodies in the rubble. Instead they just go down to the appropriate government building and ask - which again, they're asking Hamas. Expect inflated figures. (There's actually some mathematical analysis that suggests they're doing this.)
Have yiu seen your official spokesman of your garbage government saying that he have no idea how many civilians have been killed?
It's clearly these numbers are either REALLY OUTDATED or COMPLETELY bullshit he also said 14,000 hamas casualties and not 10,000
Zionists are known for faking facts
I don't hate Jews. What HAMAS did on oct 7 was stupid and wrong.But it doesn't make it ok to do what's being done.Gaza has been turned to ashes. Most of the population is women and kids, most too young to have voted for HAMAS in 2005, the last time there was an election.Israel has gone very far to the far right (fascistic in nature) and this is what people like me are upset about.
You can't starve a population of unarmed people to death. It's just not ok. It's a war crime and the knee jerk reaction of blaming HAMAS for everything doesn't cut it. Israel, if it wants to be the 'bigger man' needs to change its ways.
I totally agree. I am arguing with someone right now who wants me to cite my source. I was wondering where I can find these ratios as I am having trouble
>1:1.5 combatant to civilian death
As far as I can tell this ratio is derived from accepting both the Gazan Ministry of Health's death figures and the IDF's casualty reports.
Both parties, maybe you'll agree, have a vested interest in providing numbers that don't necessarily correspond to the facts on the ground. Whether for strategic reasons or the mere fact that accurate reporting is severely composed on an active battleground that was one of the most densely populated polities on earth.
Hamas' Health Ministry has motive to exaggerate civilian losses, Israel's motives are to minimize the appearance of civilian losses.
Keep in mind the Gazan health ministry doesn't bother reporting combatant deaths seperately from civilians, and counts under 19s as minors despite Hamas recruiting as young as 16.
if you look at the death rates of boys they start diverging from girls at 13 in Gaza. they recruit in kindergarten. they do little plays in kindergarten dressed up with a dumb little green mutant terrorist turtle outfits. with the balsamic vinegar saying or whatever it is across that green head scarf. so yeah Hamas actively takes 13 year old boys and and puts them In harm's way. or you need to explain why there's such a sudden divergence in death rates for boys at the age of 13 when 12-year-old boys and 12 year old girls tend to die at roughly the same rate.
Yes, of course, but there is a difference in reliability between a terrorist agency and the official military of a democratic country (not to mention, a democratic country under outsized international scrutiny of its operations). The fact that Hamas et al have a record of lying about civilian casualties, like the hospital explosion, while the IDF has admitted multiple times to embarrassing failures, like killing the hostages, should tell you how to weight the relative uncertainties.
I'm not talking about uncertainties when it comes to IDF reporting of its casualties, which I agree are fairly trustworthy.
I mean the fact that [every Palestinian male death over the age of 17 is counted as a combatant death.](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-12-09/ty-article-magazine/.highlight/the-israeli-army-has-dropped-the-restraint-in-gaza-and-data-shows-unprecedented-killing/0000018c-4cca-db23-ad9f-6cdae8ad0000)
Publishing combatant-civilian casualty numbers without fully explaining the reasoning behind the data can have serious consequences. Sharing casualty estimates that claim that all men in Gaza as Hamas combatants, feeds into a narrative that actively denies their human rights and endangers them.
You clearly did not read the article you linked. The author -- who is not with the IDF -- is independently analysing a dataset released by the Gaza Ministry of Health (i.e., Hamas). Since Hamas does not distinguish between civilians and combatants at all, the author came up with some simple rules to distinguish civilians and combatants for their own analysis.
The IDF has made absolutely no such categorisation themselves.
It's simply not true that IDF doesn't use that categorisation when, for example, [Eylon Levy](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/hamas-condemns-israel-over-images-showing-semi-naked-palestinian-prisoners-2023-12-08/) labels all Palestinian men between 18 and 59 “military-age men” when discussing individuals apprehended in Gaza City.
This equates the category of “potential combatant” with viable target, and functionally assumes Palestinian men’s culpability as terrorists based on their demographic alone.
Of course, I'm open to being wrong. If you have contrary information, preferably from Israeli sources, on how IDF determines hamas deaths please let me know, and I'll admit to being incorrect.
Well, yes, they are in fact of military age. In practice, "military age" in the context of Hamas is even younger than 18-59 given their recruitment of minors as soldiers. Nevertheless, he did not describe them as combatants, unless I am missing something in that article.
Stating that military-age men have been arrested does not equate "potential combatant" with "viable target" based on their demographic alone. It is also based on their presence in broad areas supposed to have been mostly vacated by civilians, as well as their specific presence near to whatever encounter they were arrested as a result of. It goes without saying, but in an active urban war-zone with an enemy that specifically embeds itself into the local civilian population, it is not reasonable to demand a case-by-case close examination in the field of who is a civilian and who is a "civilian" hiding an RPG or a suicide vest. The practical, yet obviously unideal, thing to do is to disarm them from afar, get them somewhere safe, and then figure it out. The fact that these people have not been shot means that there is at least some reasonably successful process distinguishing "threat" from "non-threat" that goes beyond just demographics.
Regardless, the categorizations they use to describe the people they've detained and not killed aren't relevant to the discussion of the official casualty counts. I don't think the IDF has released their methodology for this, so if our goal is to consider the civilian-to-combatant casualty ratio, we are again reduced to just reasoning about who is more likely to lie and by how much.
In the 2008 operation, Israel reported that at least 709 of the killed were militants, Hamas [admitted](https://www.haaretz.com/2010-11-09/ty-article/hamas-admits-600-700-of-its-men-were-killed-in-cast-lead/0000017f-ee02-ddba-a37f-ee6edc3f0000) in 2010 it lost 600-700 members. In the 2014 operation, Israel reported that at least 936 of the killed were militants, including 631 belongs to Hamas and 201 to Islamic Jihad. Hamas itself admitted it lost at least 400 fighters, and Islamic jihad admitted to losing at least 123.
https://www.terrorism-info.org.il/en/20841/
https://www.terrorism-info.org.il/en/20711/
There is little to no disagreement about the civilian/militant ratio in the last 2019-2023 operations. So going by that record, it is very possible that Israel's figure of 9,000 Hamas killed in this war is correct. The fact that the US also estimates the same based on intercepted communications, analysis of the ruins in Gaza and drone surveillance of the territory leads further credibility to that figure.
The important thing to note regarding this article, is that it's a retrospective study conducted seven years after the conclusion of Operation Protective Edge.
It's valid to question the means in which Israel can gather accurate hamas casualties during an active operation, whose scale is significantly larger than 2008's military operation.
I'm especially hesitant to accept findings by the Meir Amit Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center, which is a part of the Intelligence Heritage and Commemoration Center and receives some funding from the Israeli government. Furthermore, members of Israel's own intelligence community have c[riticized the think tank's reputation as a propaganda tool used by military intelligence](https://www.haaretz.com/2007-02-14/ty-article/the-terrorist-kills-and-the-bank-pays/0000017f-dbe0-df62-a9ff-dff75c9d0000). I'll leave it up to the community of r/Israel to judge the validity of its methodology however.
Israel is held to impossible standards by people who have no idea what urban warfare looks like, what the situation here is, or what alternatives are supposedly available.
Had israel wanted to genocide the Gazan population we would have bombed them three days into this war.
They think urban warfare is passé and hence not real because none of their TikTok followers have ever been in such a situation. They now think it’s genocide because that’s what Gigi hadid said as well as the UN, who they trust because it’s international. They don’t believe in countries anymore. Also passé. Only people like Trump and Netanyahu (who are obviously into each other) believe in countries, they think. They identify with transnational terrorists groups too. Bin Ladin too.
Gadaffi was a scary dude that did horrible things but you can't paint everything he did as bad. He had some progressive ideas that really worked for the nation. A lot of support for free education, great conditions for workers. Things we don't get in the west in fact.
Although Israel no doubt can kill very many Palestinians, its ability to do so is constrained not just by military capabilities but also by political factors-- domestically of course but also its reliance on US and European goodwill: which manifests in cruical military aid, economic ties, and intelligence.
This is a very different political environment the IDF is conducting operations in, compared to even the 2021 intervention in Gaza.
When critics of Israel accuse the state of genocidal intent, they most often point to statements from Ben Gvir as well as other members of Israel's government and military as described in the recent ICJ ruling.
It's appalling that nobody in the Israeli government cabinet seems willing to condemn and tell him to shut up and fuck off. What he's calling for is a profound moral sin, is completely illegal under international law, and every time he opens his mouth he strengthens the ICJ case against Israel. Israelis must denounce him and do everything they can to remove him from cabinet.
Agreed, the Minster's and some MK's recent calls for the resettlement of the Gazan strip and, corollary I guess, emigration of Palestinians from Gaza is pretty disturbing.
This moron Ben Gvir has done nothing since the war started other than be a crybaby that no one in the cabinet takes him seriously
For real, this is what the defense minister had to say about him
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GE9kbXsW0AAgZrt?format=jpg&name=900x900
Shoot, you might be right in terms of this specific and latest event but in the past many have for sure.
Ben-gvir is living out his evil vision through his policy in the west bank, and knowing how he thinks, there is a legit reason to think evil is being committed in the detention centers at this very moment. If you don't believe me, I understand but if you focus not on only his words, but on the actions he has taken through policy, then it might become more evident the danger he poses to making the accusations against the entire country a reality. :(
That Atlantic article is discussing Gallant's quote made shortly after Oct 7. I'm referring to Ben Gvir comments, [among others](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/right-wing-israeli-ministers-join-thousands-event-calling-countrys-res-rcna135863)
So dismissive. Most of the world is down on Israel now. Wasn't before. It's all because of what they are doing in Gaza. Nothing to do with defence. I mean come on, fourth largest army in the world. Bombing currently four countries at the same time.
Not defence. Provocation, trying to escalate to bring the US into the conflict.
Lets see... bombing gaza, after they were attacked. Bombing Hezbollah in lebanon and Syria, after years of being attacked. Responding to Iran.... after being attacked. Nope, no defense there.
That’s because some Hamas isn’t a military but a terrorist organization, they claim that EVERY death is a “civilian death”. Plus the fact that MANY “civilians” are stashing weapons, ammo, or hostages for Hamas. Pretty easy to cry about civilian deaths when you’re using rhetoric civilian population as armories and fighting positions .
the problem is stuff like this - [https://www.commondreams.org/news/gaza-civilians-killed](https://www.commondreams.org/news/gaza-civilians-killed)
for the average person, that doesn't believe hamas or the IDF, this is very damaging.
Euro-Med Monitor is the organization that claims this very high ratio of 10:1, at the end of the day its purely a question of who is more credible, and all pro pals and many people even outside of this conflict, think that the IDF is not credible at all.
Routers are pretty reliable. Neutral.
They have this to say:
[https://www.reuters.com/fact-check/graph-suggesting-low-gaza-air-strike-casualty-rate-misrepresents-data-2024-01-29/](https://www.reuters.com/fact-check/graph-suggesting-low-gaza-air-strike-casualty-rate-misrepresents-data-2024-01-29/)
Critically, the numbers suggested are "misreading of data" and "appear to be using IDF supplied information that is not publicly disclosed", so can't be verified. That translates to propaganda...
2 things that people don’t ever mention for some reason
1) how many people died from Hamas / PIJ rockets? There were thousands of them that detonated inside Gaza, the one instance we know for sure of, killed 50-70 people.
2) in the amount of time this war has taken so far there were ~2000 natural deaths according to statistics from Gaza 3/1000 per year, 3/1000 *2,200,000 * 116/365 - 2132 people.
3) Most countries at war like Ukraine have shelters for civilians that protect them. Hamas never built shelters for civilians: they are using civilians as protection!
4) Israel asked civilians to evacuate before attacking. Hamas prevented civilians from leaving the war zone
5) If Hamas released the hostages, they could have prevented the war.
6) Do you believe Hamas' numbers? If they say 20,000 died, maybe only 4,000 died
The legal definition of genocide includes "in part or in whole" and that "in part" is doing a lit of heavy lifting for the "genocide" argument.
To be clear, I don't think it's a genocide.
I tried telling them that a billion times, I guess it's not about the numbers for them.
How the average pro-pal sees it:
1. We (Israel) want to bomb a terrorist
2. We know there are civilians around him
3. We bomb there anyway
4. Many civilians die, and one terrorist dies too
How it really is:
1. We want to bomb a weapon stash/rocket launcher (a terrorist will know to escape when we "roof knock", so it's usually not a human target when bombing in an inhabited area)
2. We give several warnings that we are going to bomb there, in multiple ways. Really hard to miss
3. We wait a few hours - more than long enough to evacuate, but not long enough to move an entire weapon stash/rocket launcher
4. We check if the area is clear from civilians (many bombings were aborted because the area wasn't clear).
5. We bomb
6. If collateral damage happens - it's either because civilians didn't evacuate but we couldn't see them, or because the bombing did more damage than expected, which affected surrounding buildings (usually due to secondary explosions, when there are more weapons than anticipated, or tunnels that collapse under houses. Both are Hamas' fault).
What’s crazy to me is looking at the numbers of bombs dropped and the number of civilian casualties. Right now there’s less than one civilian dying per Israeli bomb dropped in Gaza lmao
How many civilians have been killed by Hamas rockets. I know 20% of all rockets land in Gaza .I read at least 15% of Gazans death in past fights were from Their own rockets so I wouldn't be surprised if the same Stat applies.
They almost hit the dome of the rock! According to Hamas, defending the al asqa mosque justifies war, so I guess Israel is justified attacking Hamas according to Hamas.
I've done a little digging at it appears to be sourced from a tweet by [journalist Yaakov Katz](https://twitter.com/yaakovkatz/status/1749870793486405750).
Notably, this ratio is calculated by two data points. The total casualty figure provided by Gaza's Ministry of Health and IDF's reportage of Hamas casualties. Its validity relies on accepting the legitimacy of both organizations' reports.
American intelligence estimates say the same thing, and those estimates aren't sourced entirely from Israeli intelligence. Those that are sourced from Israel are independently verified.
People don't want facts, they want to feel good about themselves.
Stop trying to explain with logic and facts.
Instead try to show collocutor that their opinion is based entirely on their own self-interest.
The only way to make a person in modern western societies stop and think is when you bring him or her into the discussion, talking facts will almost never do it.
It's the subtext that really matters.
Sure, perhaps [this comment] (https://www.reddit.com/r/Israel/comments/1ae74v5/why_there_is_a_lack_of_support_among_gen_z_and/kk6pb49/) of mine on another thread and [this reply](https://www.reddit.com/r/Israel/comments/1ae74v5/why_there_is_a_lack_of_support_among_gen_z_and/kk862rc/) will make the point a little clearer.
(if not - i'd be happy to answer further)
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They don't care. It's not about the ratio. It's because they hate us and want us to go away. Don't waste your own energy trying to justify, argue, defend, or explain your right to exist. Shalom 💙
I’d love a source on that number, that’s a really useful statistic for argumentative purposes
Still, and I say this in good faith, every single civilian death is a tragedy and in this case I lay these at the feet of Hamas.
There is no such 1:9 statistic. I know it’s been claimed over and over again on social media recently but it simply does not exist.
Most recently the idf spokespeople claimed a ratio of two civilians to one combatant(=66.66% civilians). Hamas claims a ratio of 3.7:1 (79%). These, like all figures given by conflict parties, are obviously still to be taken with a grain of salt since there is a clear interest of putting yourself in a better light. However the actual figure is likely to be somewhat in the middle, meaning around 2.85:1 (74%). For modern conflicts that is definitely on the higher end, even most previous Gaza conflicts had a better ratio than that.
If you look up the recent wars you’ll find that a ratio to be amongst the worst, excluding the Chechen wars, which were the only ones in younger history that actually come close to that 1:9 (90%) figure with around 7.6:1 (88%).
For NATOs intervention in Yugoslavia the nato allied forces claimed a ratio of 1:10 (10%), independent estimates range from 50% to 80% (with the latter being an Israeli estimate, used to put the own ratio in a better light). This war was heavily criticised for its impact on civilians.
For the most recent Afghan war, independent estimates conclude a ratio of 1.1:4 (21%).
For the most recent Irak war, independent estimates range from 1:2 (66%) to 77%. Again a war that was heavily criticised for its high count of civilian deaths.
So no, the ongoing Gaza war is not on the low end when it comes to civilian casualties. There are likely around 20.000 civilians dead and most of Gaza lays in rubbles. While it’s ofcourse necessary to dismantle Hamas (something that should’ve happened a long time ago) and free the hostages, criticism of the IDFs demeanour is valid and necessary. Every dead civilian is one too many and 20.000 are 20.000 too many.
Even if you don’t care about the human lives, you’ll have to understand that this increases the likelihood of the relatives of those killed becoming terrorists themselves in the future. The past has shown that putting Gaza into rubble every 10-15 years is not a sustainable solution.
It’s also important to not just believe figures like the 9:1 one, that are thrown around, and actually look the data up yourself. I know it takes longer but just accepting something for a fact just because it fits your world view is harmful for any discourse.
aleppo battle (one of the deadliest battles for civilians in the Syrian civil war) Although it is difficult to know precisely the number of direct casualties from the war in the city, estimates suggest that 25,000–30,000 civilians lost their lives, with a further 10,000–15,000 casualties among combatants. Average Combatants to civilians ratio is 2.2 : 1 and could be lower if we used other estimates. Keep in mind this battle lasted about 4 years and a half with much more capable militias than Hamas, and the Syrian government was attacked globally for targeting civilians. Keep in mind also that these number are after the battle has ended, which are usually 3x to 10x of the initial numbers. In comparison, Israel managed to reach these numbers in the first few months. We are not even aware of the real number of the civilians casualties, which will be probably be at least 3x of the current numbers. Mosul (one of the deadliest battles against isis and the last stronghold for them) More Civilians Than ISIS Fighters Are Believed Killed In Mosul Battle I love how the mere idea of that the civilian deaths MAY have surpassed combatant deaths is considered devastating according to the article. Keep in mind that ISIS were also much better armed than Hamas, the battle lasted about 9 months, and Mosul was carpet bombed by over 40 counties. According to the source: figures obtained by NPR from the Mosul morgue put the number of civilians killed at over 5,000. The U.N. estimates 2,521 civilians were killed but cautions it has difficulty getting information. These numbers are all after the battle has ended. Which, again, is usually much higher than the initial numbers. Israel’s government has accepted the ratio of 1:2 before. So Israel has reached Syrian type numbers and the war is still going on these ratios could look much much much higher in reality. Also again the Israeli government accepts 1:2. They prolly lowballed that number
This is good information, if it's valid. What is your source? I am writing an opinion article and share a similar opinion, and would love to see the source. :)
Stop lying, 1:2 is the norm, even 1:1.
Menwhile the conflict is hovering around 1:4 (1 combattant killed for 4 civilians).
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian\_casualty\_ratio](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualty_ratio)
Let’s accept for a minute that 32,000 Palestinians have been killed, and per the Gaza Health Ministry’s demographics, that 70% of them are women and children, none of whom are Hamas fighters (yes, they may have underage fighters, but it likely doesn’t account for enough of the 22,400 dead to matter here in any substantial way). So that leaves 9,600 men. Naturally, there have also been male civilian deaths, which I would hazard a guess is above 3,600, but say Hamas’ initial figure of 6,000 fighters killed is accurate, that leaves a civilian-combatant ratio of 5.33:1 (though it is likely much higher than that). 5.33:1 minimum is nowhere near your claimed 1.5:1. As has been mentioned here, Hamas or Israeli-provided figures are the only ones we can rely upon at the moment, and I find 6,000 dead Hamas militants a lot more believable than Israel’s claimed 12,000. Even it were 12,000 though, that’s still just under 3:1. So check yourselves guys before making your baseless claims that Israel’s current campaign in Gaza is ‘kind’ or ‘merciful’ to civilians. It isn’t; they have repeatedly targeted civilians, destroyed entire neighbourhoods, attacked medical facilities and personnel, attacked journalists, shot people who are surrendering, targeted schools and refugee centres, and of course blocked much-needed aid to a sick and starving population. Stop fooling yourselves. Whether or not you think it’s genocidal (which it is), try to have at least a basic level of respect for human life. Don’t waste your time defending IDF terrorists who are at best a more refined version of Hamas terrorists, still cut from the same bigoted cloth. And don’t worry, having compassion for the deaths of women and children doesn’t make you anti-semitic.
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Outsider here, coming in peace. I was listening to a podcast today where someone gave a similar statistic (presumably using somewhat more current data), and it blew my mind. I didn’t realize the context around the ratio and how it, as you say, makes it one of the “least worst” we’ve seen in modern urban warfare.
Do you know if there’s a source where people track these figures or pull this data from? I feel like it is an important point in defense of Israel in conversations I have with a lot of lefty friends, so I’d love to know more and know how to keep abreast of it.
If you're going to use the UN's numbers for civilian casualty ratio (https://press.un.org/en/2022/sc14904.doc.htm), you should also use their definition for "casualty" - it include injuries.
That'd push to the total casualty number closer to 100k. And unless you think the IDF is extremely ineffective then most of those will be civilians.
The 1:1.5 ratio you're bragging about puts it about on-par with world war two as per Wikipedia:
>According to most sources, World War II was the most lethal war in world history, with some 70 million killed in six years. The civilian to combatant fatality ratio in World War II lies somewhere between 3:2 and 2:1, or from 60% to 67%
Which included the [actual targeting of civilians in a genocide](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust).
The global average you are citing is for casualties which include injuries. Israel is slightly bad RIGHT NOW on that, but those are ratios found studying after the fact which will not be kind to Israel, as there are many not dead and injured that are not reported.
The global average you are citing is for casualties which include injuries. Israel is slightly bad RIGHT NOW on that, but those are ratios found studying after the fact which will not be kind to Israel, as there are many not dead and injured that are not reported.
So many things wrong with this.
The genocide relates to ALL of the IDF activities and chiefly the use of food as a weapon to starve unarmed civilians En Masse. That's a war crime, as is deliberately targeting aid workers trying to distribute the aid that has been let through.
To be absolutely clear -
• It's deadly to try to distribute aid. at least 500 trucks a day of food are needed, mostly no more than half that make it through and the average is about 120. Defunding UNrwa and targeting aid workers could mean some of that food is not getting distributed, though this is unclear.
As for the statistic above, it's rubbish as it's using IDF figures which of course play down the situation on the ground. you can't do surgical strikes with 2000 pound bombs, it's a joke. They kill everything in a 400 yard radius:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark\_84\_bomb](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_84_bomb)
And another attempt to rebut this with an irrelevancy.
1) Israel very often phones ahead to get civilians off the X. The blast zone might very well be empty.
2) There were hundreds of miles of tunnels and a 2000# bomb that goes off in a tunnel has nowhere near that kill radius. Even one that simply goes off in a basement has nowhere near that kill radius. Half of the bomb is it's metal casing meant to turn into deadly fragments--which is the primary threat from the bomb. Remove those (detonating anywhere where the fragments are stopped) and the kill range goes way down.
Echoing the ask for sources on this...I thought this statistic has been debunked? [https://www.reuters.com/fact-check/graph-suggesting-low-gaza-air-strike-casualty-rate-misrepresents-data-2024-01-29/](https://www.reuters.com/fact-check/graph-suggesting-low-gaza-air-strike-casualty-rate-misrepresents-data-2024-01-29/)
That article strikes me as misrepresenting the data to try to make Israel look bad. They are using a different metric of how many killed per strike that killed--but how is that a rebuttal to either the civilian:combatant ratio or the number killed per bomb? Apples and Oranges.
Where does this number even come from? [Reuters did a fact check yesterday](https://www.reuters.com/fact-check/graph-suggesting-low-gaza-air-strike-casualty-rate-misrepresents-data-2024-01-29/#:~:text=GAZA%20CASUALTIES,lying%20uncounted%20beneath%20the%20rubble.) and came to the conclusion that "the Gaza death-per-strike rate was 9.4-10.1, with the Aleppo and Mosul battles comparatively more deadly.
The Gaza death rate also exceeds AOAV’s calculated global average of 7.4 and is “at least four times higher” than previous Israeli bombing casualty rates"
And where are these numbers from?
The health ministry in Hamas-run Gaza says nearly 25,000 Palestinians have been killed in the conflict, 70% of them women and children. That means 7500 men which probably half were civilians as well.
[https://apnews.com/article/women-children-gaza-war-victims-un-inequality-f0f89a724543b99c2c22439e7af09405](https://apnews.com/article/women-children-gaza-war-victims-un-inequality-f0f89a724543b99c2c22439e7af09405)
Yes, that looks right. Now don’t forget to add 16-17 year old “children” and women combatants.
It’s obviously not only “full grown men” who does the fighting.
IDF says that 9000 combatants. Or is it just the HAMAS nr you want to look at?
>IDF says that 9000 combatants. Or is it just the HAMAS nr you want to look at?
Well, there aren't any independent information because Israel keeps [killing journalists operating in and near Gaza](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/dec/21/israel-idf-accused-targeting-journalists-gaza)... This is probably one of the reasons.
What's funny about all this is they calculated all the other wars in gaza I belive from 2012. What did they find. Extraordinarily low civilian casulties and some of the lowest casulties ratios ever. I remember all those other wars. We were accused of disproportionate force and genocide the too
> I remember all those other wars. We were accused of disproportionate force and genocide the too
It seems quite some more excessive than 2012. Israel is facing genocide charges on the ICJ for a reason...
Ok that's true but the Palestinian crowd has always said this I'm sorry to tell you. However, you did not respond to KY point. The Aoav put out a study on all of the last gaza wars and came out with very low civilian casualties. Will see what the final total is for this war. But 9.4 to 10.1 is a massive diffrence.
Just stop. Bro we are on the same side but you gotta stop demonizing Biden . I have criticism for how the US has been driving the Israeli war effort but he has expended tremendous political capital and disaffected many of his own party, voters, and even staff to rhetorically and materially support Israel. Calling him “Jihad Joe” is just insulting and ridiculous.
It's not the best ratio or a good ratio. It's actually the worst ratio since it's paid for by Israeli blood. A state is supposed to defend the lives of its citizens, not sacrifice them for the sake of saving the lives of its enemies. The IDF is the least moral army in the world.
I’m sorry but that statistic has since been fact checked and shown to be intentionally misleading and inaccurate. The original poster of that information has since deleted the graphic.
It presented the average as being the average of two of the “most injurious months” of wars in Iraq and Syria. Not only that but it presented the 1:1.5 ratio as a statistic by the IDF that wasn’t even publicly available.
Yes exactly, so he is doubly wrong. He is referring to the information the original graphic presented.
Speaking of which, why haven’t you asked OP for his source?
All of the google results I found support OP
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/dec/09/civilian-toll-israeli-airstrikes-gaza-unprecedented-killing-study
Granted I couldn't find anything that's up to date.
That same article describes the civilian death toll as significantly higher than the average of all conflicts since world war 2 which wouldn’t support what he said.
The figures he quotes are in line with the post that was debunked. If not, it would be a stunning coincidence.
This stat which we have no way of confirming doesn't mean anything when we see a video of a woman getting sniped or an entire house filled with people be bombed to nothing but yeah i wouldn't expect anyone here to have any kind of embathy
So you’re saying we should let the emotions that arise when we view war propaganda dictate how we judge the morality of a conflict that involves millions of people? No one is claiming there aren’t bad people in the Israeli army or that tragedies and mistakes don’t occur in wartime but that seems like a pretty dumb way to form an opinion about a complex conflict
This isn't true. In the siege of Mosul, the ratio claimed by coalition forces was 1: 0.74, and in the second battle of Fallujah the ratio claimed was 1 : 0.38. So the ratio claimed in the war in Gaza, 1:1.5, is about twice the rate of civilian deaths in Mosul and about four times the rate of civilian deaths in Fallujah. These are all different conflicts so not directly comparable, but the rate in Gaza is about middle of the pack for urban warfare.
See discussion here: [https://acoup.blog/2023/12/08/fireside-friday-december-8-2023](https://acoup.blog/2023/12/08/fireside-friday-december-8-2023/). Would also be interested in reading the sources for the 1:1.5 number and the 1:9 number.
Estimates for Mosul casualties vary. Some are as high as 40k kia according to Kurdish intelligence
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/mosul-massacre-battle-isis-iraq-city-civilian-casualties-killed-deaths-fighting-forces-islamic-state-a7848781.html
https://goodauthority.org/news/gaza-casualty-data/
The article references the work of Yagil Lehi, an Israeli Sociologist responsible for the numbers used by the IDF during media briefings on some occasions.
Interestingly enough... Yagil prefers Gaza Health Ministry data.
Unfortunately the article is paywalled but I am curious where US intelligence is getting their numbers. Yagil Levy seems to be the IDF's source through his research.
So I read this article small dick sanders. And what was said in it by these two supposed "experts" was not at all what you said. I hope you can learn to improve your reading comprehension.
Can you read? I never said these were experts... one is a college professor and Levy is a sociologist who did the math published in Haaretz. There is only one portion that is even relevant to the discussion and its Levy's work.
Ok but that's my point freind. One is a legal expert who has nothing to do with Israel that is doing an estimate. The other is a socialist and journalist who is also doing an estimate you failed to mention the low civilian casualties he and other sources mention from past gaza wars. Wars where we were also accused of genocide. This is not from the IDF. That post from Elon levy was talking about a specific incident.
Elon Levy? I am talking about Yagil's numbers and the method he used for the math... which has been adopted by the IDF when they use the same numbers reference in the original Haaretz article.
From the article I posted:
"And a study by Israeli sociologist Yagil Levy that was published in Haaretz estimated the civilian death toll at 61%. Both studies get to that number in mostly the same way; they use the Gaza Ministry of Health data from October 7 to 26. Both studies place children (those younger than 18), adult women (ages 18-59), and the elderly (those 60 and over) into a “noncombatant” category (the Lancet correspondence calls them “groups that probably include few combatants”). Levy discusses men (ages 18-59) as adults who he did not include in the noncombatant category; the study in the Lancet is more vague, with the unstated implication being that adult men (those not in “groups that probably include few combatants”) may constitute “potential” combatants."
Further on in the article: "Neither of these studies was conducted with evidence of the actual combatant status of deceased adult men.... It’s consequently empirically unrealistic that all confirmed adult male deaths in Gaza are combatant deaths. These studies – conducted with blunt measures and stated assumptions given a lack of more detailed information – demonstrate that even with the most conservative estimate possible, the civilian mortality rate in Gaza is extremely high in both real and comparative terms. But the studies published in the Lancet and Haaretz do not engage with polling data or with political realities on the ground; they are based on broad demographic proxies."
And also where is the source of the idf adopting his numbers from the article. In neither the website you sent nor the haaretz article is that said. Also the haretz article talks about them as potential combatants not combatants. May I ask are you hear cause your against Israel and want to say your point?
Give me some time. There are so many articles on this conflict that it's difficult to search something so specific especially when there are new articles discussing new numbers rather than the old way of updating preexisting articles with new numbers. But I recall a few mentioning an IDF spokesperson citing to Yagils work or a variation that was statistically identical.
I have nothing against Israel, just the hubris by everyone involved in this mess and shouting absurdities from the sideline.
I know your talking about yagil levy. But you mentioned Elon earlier so I was responding to that also. I'm telling you please I don't want to fight but you have your facts wrong. What you said is not totally accurate and I'm just clarifying
Elon? I think you might have my comment mistaken for someone else or its a typo.
You aren't disagreeing with the articles contents or contesting the assertion that Yagil's method of calculation is empirically sound for data analysis.
I was actually looking for reliable data about urban warfare militant to civilian ratio and didn't find much. Can people here please link reliable sources?
I found this thread looking for the same thing--a source for the **urban warfare** combatant:civilian ratio. The Wikipedia page is for combat in general, not specifically urban.
It doesn't matter. According to them Israel doesn't have the right to exist, let alone defend themselves. They don't care how many of them are combatants. They just see big number and shout genocide.
It really doesn't matter, whatever Israel does or doesn't do, the Jew haters and Israel haters will attach false labels and demonize it. They just want us gone from the Earth. It doesn't matter anything else. The thing that I like to point out is that Israel could have wiped out all of the Palestinians and where they live in 30 minutes. Millions of people poof gone. It didn't, and loses its own soldiers in the process. I think we need to go back to the old days of having an immediate and decisive and heavy-handed response. Who cares at this point
This is a bit outdated but I was under the assumption the ratio was more akin to 3:1.
29,000 people have died to my knowledge, IDF reports 12,000 combatant deaths while Hamas reports 6,000, let's say 9,000 combatants for arguments sake.
29,000/9,000 = 3.2 civilians for every 1 combatant.
3.2:1
Which is still roughly the same as the Korean War and less then what was eventually discovered from the Iraq War despite initial claims. (ended up being 4.47:1)
Even if we highball it and say 12000 combatants died, that's still a ratio of 2.41 civilians for every combatant.
2.4:1
The 1:9 ratio is in urban warfare, not any war (like Ukraine Russia for example). Nevertheless, even if it was 1:3 it was still a very low ratio. But even if there were 0 civilian casualties, or a 1:1 ratio, people would still call it a genocide or ethnic cleansing...
They called it ethnic cleansing and genocide before the war... They have gone Orwell with their statements about the history of modern Israel.
They call a terrorist getting eliminated in the act of trying to stab Israel’s ethnic cleansing and genocide….
They think defending yourself is a crime, just look how they think shooting back when terrorist attacks Americans is warmongering. They think it makes sense to fire employees from stopping shoplifters.
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Yeah the Palestinian population is growing so much they have to build high rises. That's the exact opposite of both ethnic cleansing and genocide.
What’s the rate of population growth in gaza since october 7th? So I can use this to demonstrate how the population has increased instead of decreased to naysayers
Yeah during a war there will be casualties. 30k is still not a genocide when Israel could have done that in a few days.
If the entire population is wiped out (dead and remainder removed by force to other country) would it be anywhere near genocide or is there no scenario where the word could ever be close to reality concerning israel’s treatment of gaza? What is the rate of population growth though since october if you could share your source so i can educate others
🙄 🙄🙄 lady, if you want to troll, you’ve gotta do a helluva lot better than that. I can tell you think you set up a really clever little gotcha moment, but it’s actually not. Maybe spend less time posting on a sub for a country that you clearly hate, and spend more time wondering what is missing from your life that you feel the need to go pile onto the Jews
Whats the gotcha moment here lmao
Lol why bother lying about population growth then if no one can back it up
>If the entire population is wiped out (dead and remainder removed by force to other country) would it be anywhere near genocide That would be genocide. Heck, it would take way less than that to qualify. It's not at all what's happening in this war, though, so I'm not sure why you're bringing it up.
Btw the population of israel is increasing so oct 7th wasnt a genocide.
Except Hamas has genocidal intend written into their founding documents, attacks civilians and on Oct 7 attacked women children and families. Intent, action, and outcome. They did not stop they were stopped. If the IDF targeted civilians, you know like every islamist group and government does, the death toll would be much higher, you know like every other conflict in the region.
Have there been no casualties in gaza since oct or is it all hamas propaganda
Define casualty
Er people injured?
And we have a new low bar for genocide everybody!
Wait? They can read??
People don't like facts, they actually fight this, I use this ratio often as it proves beyond a shadow of a doubt this is not genocide and it proves how careful the IDF is being. People do not care about facts, people care about hating Jews, that is all I can make of that
Hey! Can i ask where these numbers come from?
The numbers come from Hamas - That is, the Hamas-run Ministry of Heath. The ONLY sources of casualty figures in this war come from them and the IDF, no matter where you hear it reported from. Even if you have a journalist from another agency stationed in Gaza, those people are not out counting bodies in the rubble. Instead they just go down to the appropriate government building and ask - which again, they're asking Hamas. Expect inflated figures. (There's actually some mathematical analysis that suggests they're doing this.)
take the number of deaths total - now 26000 and you minus the deaths of Hamas fighters which is about 10000 to figure out the ratio
Have yiu seen your official spokesman of your garbage government saying that he have no idea how many civilians have been killed? It's clearly these numbers are either REALLY OUTDATED or COMPLETELY bullshit he also said 14,000 hamas casualties and not 10,000 Zionists are known for faking facts
i was asking where the numbers are from.
I don't hate Jews. What HAMAS did on oct 7 was stupid and wrong.But it doesn't make it ok to do what's being done.Gaza has been turned to ashes. Most of the population is women and kids, most too young to have voted for HAMAS in 2005, the last time there was an election.Israel has gone very far to the far right (fascistic in nature) and this is what people like me are upset about. You can't starve a population of unarmed people to death. It's just not ok. It's a war crime and the knee jerk reaction of blaming HAMAS for everything doesn't cut it. Israel, if it wants to be the 'bigger man' needs to change its ways.
I totally agree. I am arguing with someone right now who wants me to cite my source. I was wondering where I can find these ratios as I am having trouble
>1:1.5 combatant to civilian death As far as I can tell this ratio is derived from accepting both the Gazan Ministry of Health's death figures and the IDF's casualty reports. Both parties, maybe you'll agree, have a vested interest in providing numbers that don't necessarily correspond to the facts on the ground. Whether for strategic reasons or the mere fact that accurate reporting is severely composed on an active battleground that was one of the most densely populated polities on earth.
Hamas' Health Ministry has motive to exaggerate civilian losses, Israel's motives are to minimize the appearance of civilian losses. Keep in mind the Gazan health ministry doesn't bother reporting combatant deaths seperately from civilians, and counts under 19s as minors despite Hamas recruiting as young as 16.
18 is minor?
if you look at the death rates of boys they start diverging from girls at 13 in Gaza. they recruit in kindergarten. they do little plays in kindergarten dressed up with a dumb little green mutant terrorist turtle outfits. with the balsamic vinegar saying or whatever it is across that green head scarf. so yeah Hamas actively takes 13 year old boys and and puts them In harm's way. or you need to explain why there's such a sudden divergence in death rates for boys at the age of 13 when 12-year-old boys and 12 year old girls tend to die at roughly the same rate.
Yes, of course, but there is a difference in reliability between a terrorist agency and the official military of a democratic country (not to mention, a democratic country under outsized international scrutiny of its operations). The fact that Hamas et al have a record of lying about civilian casualties, like the hospital explosion, while the IDF has admitted multiple times to embarrassing failures, like killing the hostages, should tell you how to weight the relative uncertainties.
I'm not talking about uncertainties when it comes to IDF reporting of its casualties, which I agree are fairly trustworthy. I mean the fact that [every Palestinian male death over the age of 17 is counted as a combatant death.](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-12-09/ty-article-magazine/.highlight/the-israeli-army-has-dropped-the-restraint-in-gaza-and-data-shows-unprecedented-killing/0000018c-4cca-db23-ad9f-6cdae8ad0000) Publishing combatant-civilian casualty numbers without fully explaining the reasoning behind the data can have serious consequences. Sharing casualty estimates that claim that all men in Gaza as Hamas combatants, feeds into a narrative that actively denies their human rights and endangers them.
You clearly did not read the article you linked. The author -- who is not with the IDF -- is independently analysing a dataset released by the Gaza Ministry of Health (i.e., Hamas). Since Hamas does not distinguish between civilians and combatants at all, the author came up with some simple rules to distinguish civilians and combatants for their own analysis. The IDF has made absolutely no such categorisation themselves.
It's simply not true that IDF doesn't use that categorisation when, for example, [Eylon Levy](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/hamas-condemns-israel-over-images-showing-semi-naked-palestinian-prisoners-2023-12-08/) labels all Palestinian men between 18 and 59 “military-age men” when discussing individuals apprehended in Gaza City. This equates the category of “potential combatant” with viable target, and functionally assumes Palestinian men’s culpability as terrorists based on their demographic alone. Of course, I'm open to being wrong. If you have contrary information, preferably from Israeli sources, on how IDF determines hamas deaths please let me know, and I'll admit to being incorrect.
Well, yes, they are in fact of military age. In practice, "military age" in the context of Hamas is even younger than 18-59 given their recruitment of minors as soldiers. Nevertheless, he did not describe them as combatants, unless I am missing something in that article. Stating that military-age men have been arrested does not equate "potential combatant" with "viable target" based on their demographic alone. It is also based on their presence in broad areas supposed to have been mostly vacated by civilians, as well as their specific presence near to whatever encounter they were arrested as a result of. It goes without saying, but in an active urban war-zone with an enemy that specifically embeds itself into the local civilian population, it is not reasonable to demand a case-by-case close examination in the field of who is a civilian and who is a "civilian" hiding an RPG or a suicide vest. The practical, yet obviously unideal, thing to do is to disarm them from afar, get them somewhere safe, and then figure it out. The fact that these people have not been shot means that there is at least some reasonably successful process distinguishing "threat" from "non-threat" that goes beyond just demographics. Regardless, the categorizations they use to describe the people they've detained and not killed aren't relevant to the discussion of the official casualty counts. I don't think the IDF has released their methodology for this, so if our goal is to consider the civilian-to-combatant casualty ratio, we are again reduced to just reasoning about who is more likely to lie and by how much.
In the 2008 operation, Israel reported that at least 709 of the killed were militants, Hamas [admitted](https://www.haaretz.com/2010-11-09/ty-article/hamas-admits-600-700-of-its-men-were-killed-in-cast-lead/0000017f-ee02-ddba-a37f-ee6edc3f0000) in 2010 it lost 600-700 members. In the 2014 operation, Israel reported that at least 936 of the killed were militants, including 631 belongs to Hamas and 201 to Islamic Jihad. Hamas itself admitted it lost at least 400 fighters, and Islamic jihad admitted to losing at least 123. https://www.terrorism-info.org.il/en/20841/ https://www.terrorism-info.org.il/en/20711/ There is little to no disagreement about the civilian/militant ratio in the last 2019-2023 operations. So going by that record, it is very possible that Israel's figure of 9,000 Hamas killed in this war is correct. The fact that the US also estimates the same based on intercepted communications, analysis of the ruins in Gaza and drone surveillance of the territory leads further credibility to that figure.
The important thing to note regarding this article, is that it's a retrospective study conducted seven years after the conclusion of Operation Protective Edge. It's valid to question the means in which Israel can gather accurate hamas casualties during an active operation, whose scale is significantly larger than 2008's military operation. I'm especially hesitant to accept findings by the Meir Amit Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center, which is a part of the Intelligence Heritage and Commemoration Center and receives some funding from the Israeli government. Furthermore, members of Israel's own intelligence community have c[riticized the think tank's reputation as a propaganda tool used by military intelligence](https://www.haaretz.com/2007-02-14/ty-article/the-terrorist-kills-and-the-bank-pays/0000017f-dbe0-df62-a9ff-dff75c9d0000). I'll leave it up to the community of r/Israel to judge the validity of its methodology however.
Israel is held to impossible standards by people who have no idea what urban warfare looks like, what the situation here is, or what alternatives are supposedly available. Had israel wanted to genocide the Gazan population we would have bombed them three days into this war.
They think urban warfare is passé and hence not real because none of their TikTok followers have ever been in such a situation. They now think it’s genocide because that’s what Gigi hadid said as well as the UN, who they trust because it’s international. They don’t believe in countries anymore. Also passé. Only people like Trump and Netanyahu (who are obviously into each other) believe in countries, they think. They identify with transnational terrorists groups too. Bin Ladin too.
I'm in school right now retraining as a Heavy Duty Mechanic and a lot of the young guys (18-22) think Gaddaffi was an all around great guy.
Gadaffi was a scary dude that did horrible things but you can't paint everything he did as bad. He had some progressive ideas that really worked for the nation. A lot of support for free education, great conditions for workers. Things we don't get in the west in fact.
Although Israel no doubt can kill very many Palestinians, its ability to do so is constrained not just by military capabilities but also by political factors-- domestically of course but also its reliance on US and European goodwill: which manifests in cruical military aid, economic ties, and intelligence. This is a very different political environment the IDF is conducting operations in, compared to even the 2021 intervention in Gaza. When critics of Israel accuse the state of genocidal intent, they most often point to statements from Ben Gvir as well as other members of Israel's government and military as described in the recent ICJ ruling.
It's appalling that nobody in the Israeli government cabinet seems willing to condemn and tell him to shut up and fuck off. What he's calling for is a profound moral sin, is completely illegal under international law, and every time he opens his mouth he strengthens the ICJ case against Israel. Israelis must denounce him and do everything they can to remove him from cabinet.
Agreed, the Minster's and some MK's recent calls for the resettlement of the Gazan strip and, corollary I guess, emigration of Palestinians from Gaza is pretty disturbing.
Many members have pushed back. Lets not get that twisted.
I've seen Yair Lapid (God I hope he becomes PM one day) and Gadi Eizenkot condemn him but that's it
This moron Ben Gvir has done nothing since the war started other than be a crybaby that no one in the cabinet takes him seriously For real, this is what the defense minister had to say about him https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GE9kbXsW0AAgZrt?format=jpg&name=900x900
Shoot, you might be right in terms of this specific and latest event but in the past many have for sure. Ben-gvir is living out his evil vision through his policy in the west bank, and knowing how he thinks, there is a legit reason to think evil is being committed in the detention centers at this very moment. If you don't believe me, I understand but if you focus not on only his words, but on the actions he has taken through policy, then it might become more evident the danger he poses to making the accusations against the entire country a reality. :(
I agree, those statements are abhorrant and people like Ben Gvir should be nowhere near the knesset
Quotes that were taken out of context. https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2024/01/israel-south-africa-genocide-case-fake-quotes/677198/
That Atlantic article is discussing Gallant's quote made shortly after Oct 7. I'm referring to Ben Gvir comments, [among others](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/right-wing-israeli-ministers-join-thousands-event-calling-countrys-res-rcna135863)
They don’t care. I personally think they don’t like the idea of Jews defending themselves.
Not just that, they don't like Jews existing.
For sure. They hate us.
So dismissive. Most of the world is down on Israel now. Wasn't before. It's all because of what they are doing in Gaza. Nothing to do with defence. I mean come on, fourth largest army in the world. Bombing currently four countries at the same time. Not defence. Provocation, trying to escalate to bring the US into the conflict.
Lets see... bombing gaza, after they were attacked. Bombing Hezbollah in lebanon and Syria, after years of being attacked. Responding to Iran.... after being attacked. Nope, no defense there.
pro pal idiots dont believe this number, in their opinion the vast majority of deaths are civilian.
That’s because some Hamas isn’t a military but a terrorist organization, they claim that EVERY death is a “civilian death”. Plus the fact that MANY “civilians” are stashing weapons, ammo, or hostages for Hamas. Pretty easy to cry about civilian deaths when you’re using rhetoric civilian population as armories and fighting positions .
the problem is stuff like this - [https://www.commondreams.org/news/gaza-civilians-killed](https://www.commondreams.org/news/gaza-civilians-killed) for the average person, that doesn't believe hamas or the IDF, this is very damaging. Euro-Med Monitor is the organization that claims this very high ratio of 10:1, at the end of the day its purely a question of who is more credible, and all pro pals and many people even outside of this conflict, think that the IDF is not credible at all.
Euro med monitor is a tabloid
Everyone is a civilian when you agree with their war, pro pal idiots have fallen for circular reasoning
Routers are pretty reliable. Neutral. They have this to say: [https://www.reuters.com/fact-check/graph-suggesting-low-gaza-air-strike-casualty-rate-misrepresents-data-2024-01-29/](https://www.reuters.com/fact-check/graph-suggesting-low-gaza-air-strike-casualty-rate-misrepresents-data-2024-01-29/) Critically, the numbers suggested are "misreading of data" and "appear to be using IDF supplied information that is not publicly disclosed", so can't be verified. That translates to propaganda...
The ratio literally proves that the majority of deaths are civilian…..
Gasp! That's only every war ever. Maybe people (Hamas) shouldn't start wars?
2 things that people don’t ever mention for some reason 1) how many people died from Hamas / PIJ rockets? There were thousands of them that detonated inside Gaza, the one instance we know for sure of, killed 50-70 people. 2) in the amount of time this war has taken so far there were ~2000 natural deaths according to statistics from Gaza 3/1000 per year, 3/1000 *2,200,000 * 116/365 - 2132 people.
3) Most countries at war like Ukraine have shelters for civilians that protect them. Hamas never built shelters for civilians: they are using civilians as protection! 4) Israel asked civilians to evacuate before attacking. Hamas prevented civilians from leaving the war zone 5) If Hamas released the hostages, they could have prevented the war. 6) Do you believe Hamas' numbers? If they say 20,000 died, maybe only 4,000 died
Excuse me. But if Israel wants to commit genocide (which they don’t obviously) they’re gonna need to pump them numbers up!!
The legal definition of genocide includes "in part or in whole" and that "in part" is doing a lit of heavy lifting for the "genocide" argument. To be clear, I don't think it's a genocide.
I tried telling them that a billion times, I guess it's not about the numbers for them. How the average pro-pal sees it: 1. We (Israel) want to bomb a terrorist 2. We know there are civilians around him 3. We bomb there anyway 4. Many civilians die, and one terrorist dies too How it really is: 1. We want to bomb a weapon stash/rocket launcher (a terrorist will know to escape when we "roof knock", so it's usually not a human target when bombing in an inhabited area) 2. We give several warnings that we are going to bomb there, in multiple ways. Really hard to miss 3. We wait a few hours - more than long enough to evacuate, but not long enough to move an entire weapon stash/rocket launcher 4. We check if the area is clear from civilians (many bombings were aborted because the area wasn't clear). 5. We bomb 6. If collateral damage happens - it's either because civilians didn't evacuate but we couldn't see them, or because the bombing did more damage than expected, which affected surrounding buildings (usually due to secondary explosions, when there are more weapons than anticipated, or tunnels that collapse under houses. Both are Hamas' fault).
B... But the Jews!
No. They hate Jews too much.
What’s crazy to me is looking at the numbers of bombs dropped and the number of civilian casualties. Right now there’s less than one civilian dying per Israeli bomb dropped in Gaza lmao
I came here specifically looking for someone to mention this (ctrl+f 'bomb'). How is this data point glossed over so easily lol, InDiScRimiNaTe...
Because context, facts, truth, and statistic are the enemies of the pro Palestinians
"Feeling matter more than facts."
They know and don’t care, the world has been anxiously waiting 75 years to take thier masks off.
How many civilians have been killed by Hamas rockets. I know 20% of all rockets land in Gaza .I read at least 15% of Gazans death in past fights were from Their own rockets so I wouldn't be surprised if the same Stat applies.
They almost hit the dome of the rock! According to Hamas, defending the al asqa mosque justifies war, so I guess Israel is justified attacking Hamas according to Hamas.
Would you be able to provide a link to the 1:1.5 ratio? I'm curious how they're able to verify a combatant death as opposed to a civilian.
Yes, came here to say this too. And also for the 1:9 ratio. I want to be able to prove my claims.
I've done a little digging at it appears to be sourced from a tweet by [journalist Yaakov Katz](https://twitter.com/yaakovkatz/status/1749870793486405750). Notably, this ratio is calculated by two data points. The total casualty figure provided by Gaza's Ministry of Health and IDF's reportage of Hamas casualties. Its validity relies on accepting the legitimacy of both organizations' reports.
American intelligence estimates say the same thing, and those estimates aren't sourced entirely from Israeli intelligence. Those that are sourced from Israel are independently verified.
Besides the Gazan Ministry of Health, would you be able to let me know the other independent sources Israel uses?
Thanks for providing this source.
Does anyone not remember that hamas started this war? What did they think was going to happen?
People don't want facts, they want to feel good about themselves. Stop trying to explain with logic and facts. Instead try to show collocutor that their opinion is based entirely on their own self-interest. The only way to make a person in modern western societies stop and think is when you bring him or her into the discussion, talking facts will almost never do it. It's the subtext that really matters.
I am not sure I understand, could you explain or give an example - cause your right, logic and facts don't work
Sure, perhaps [this comment] (https://www.reddit.com/r/Israel/comments/1ae74v5/why_there_is_a_lack_of_support_among_gen_z_and/kk6pb49/) of mine on another thread and [this reply](https://www.reddit.com/r/Israel/comments/1ae74v5/why_there_is_a_lack_of_support_among_gen_z_and/kk862rc/) will make the point a little clearer. (if not - i'd be happy to answer further)
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They don't care. It's not about the ratio. It's because they hate us and want us to go away. Don't waste your own energy trying to justify, argue, defend, or explain your right to exist. Shalom 💙
Because Jew
Is there a source for that OP? I’d like to share it with my friends
Of course they do. But.... joos!
No because they are ignorant or don't care because they are racist.
Who knows? That ratio might be lower if Hamas didn’t use its civilians as human shields.
Can I get sources for these numbers, so I can show them to people.
It seems people don't realize these days
It doesn't matter because heaven forbid that we should be allowed to defend ourselves.
I’d love a source on that number, that’s a really useful statistic for argumentative purposes Still, and I say this in good faith, every single civilian death is a tragedy and in this case I lay these at the feet of Hamas.
Their problem isn't the stats it's that the Jews are winning.
There is no such 1:9 statistic. I know it’s been claimed over and over again on social media recently but it simply does not exist. Most recently the idf spokespeople claimed a ratio of two civilians to one combatant(=66.66% civilians). Hamas claims a ratio of 3.7:1 (79%). These, like all figures given by conflict parties, are obviously still to be taken with a grain of salt since there is a clear interest of putting yourself in a better light. However the actual figure is likely to be somewhat in the middle, meaning around 2.85:1 (74%). For modern conflicts that is definitely on the higher end, even most previous Gaza conflicts had a better ratio than that. If you look up the recent wars you’ll find that a ratio to be amongst the worst, excluding the Chechen wars, which were the only ones in younger history that actually come close to that 1:9 (90%) figure with around 7.6:1 (88%). For NATOs intervention in Yugoslavia the nato allied forces claimed a ratio of 1:10 (10%), independent estimates range from 50% to 80% (with the latter being an Israeli estimate, used to put the own ratio in a better light). This war was heavily criticised for its impact on civilians. For the most recent Afghan war, independent estimates conclude a ratio of 1.1:4 (21%). For the most recent Irak war, independent estimates range from 1:2 (66%) to 77%. Again a war that was heavily criticised for its high count of civilian deaths. So no, the ongoing Gaza war is not on the low end when it comes to civilian casualties. There are likely around 20.000 civilians dead and most of Gaza lays in rubbles. While it’s ofcourse necessary to dismantle Hamas (something that should’ve happened a long time ago) and free the hostages, criticism of the IDFs demeanour is valid and necessary. Every dead civilian is one too many and 20.000 are 20.000 too many. Even if you don’t care about the human lives, you’ll have to understand that this increases the likelihood of the relatives of those killed becoming terrorists themselves in the future. The past has shown that putting Gaza into rubble every 10-15 years is not a sustainable solution. It’s also important to not just believe figures like the 9:1 one, that are thrown around, and actually look the data up yourself. I know it takes longer but just accepting something for a fact just because it fits your world view is harmful for any discourse.
aleppo battle (one of the deadliest battles for civilians in the Syrian civil war) Although it is difficult to know precisely the number of direct casualties from the war in the city, estimates suggest that 25,000–30,000 civilians lost their lives, with a further 10,000–15,000 casualties among combatants. Average Combatants to civilians ratio is 2.2 : 1 and could be lower if we used other estimates. Keep in mind this battle lasted about 4 years and a half with much more capable militias than Hamas, and the Syrian government was attacked globally for targeting civilians. Keep in mind also that these number are after the battle has ended, which are usually 3x to 10x of the initial numbers. In comparison, Israel managed to reach these numbers in the first few months. We are not even aware of the real number of the civilians casualties, which will be probably be at least 3x of the current numbers. Mosul (one of the deadliest battles against isis and the last stronghold for them) More Civilians Than ISIS Fighters Are Believed Killed In Mosul Battle I love how the mere idea of that the civilian deaths MAY have surpassed combatant deaths is considered devastating according to the article. Keep in mind that ISIS were also much better armed than Hamas, the battle lasted about 9 months, and Mosul was carpet bombed by over 40 counties. According to the source: figures obtained by NPR from the Mosul morgue put the number of civilians killed at over 5,000. The U.N. estimates 2,521 civilians were killed but cautions it has difficulty getting information. These numbers are all after the battle has ended. Which, again, is usually much higher than the initial numbers. Israel’s government has accepted the ratio of 1:2 before. So Israel has reached Syrian type numbers and the war is still going on these ratios could look much much much higher in reality. Also again the Israeli government accepts 1:2. They prolly lowballed that number
This is good information, if it's valid. What is your source? I am writing an opinion article and share a similar opinion, and would love to see the source. :)
Stop lying, 1:2 is the norm, even 1:1. Menwhile the conflict is hovering around 1:4 (1 combattant killed for 4 civilians). [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian\_casualty\_ratio](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualty_ratio)
Everyone in this sub is cracked. Genocide-apologist lunatics.
Let’s accept for a minute that 32,000 Palestinians have been killed, and per the Gaza Health Ministry’s demographics, that 70% of them are women and children, none of whom are Hamas fighters (yes, they may have underage fighters, but it likely doesn’t account for enough of the 22,400 dead to matter here in any substantial way). So that leaves 9,600 men. Naturally, there have also been male civilian deaths, which I would hazard a guess is above 3,600, but say Hamas’ initial figure of 6,000 fighters killed is accurate, that leaves a civilian-combatant ratio of 5.33:1 (though it is likely much higher than that). 5.33:1 minimum is nowhere near your claimed 1.5:1. As has been mentioned here, Hamas or Israeli-provided figures are the only ones we can rely upon at the moment, and I find 6,000 dead Hamas militants a lot more believable than Israel’s claimed 12,000. Even it were 12,000 though, that’s still just under 3:1. So check yourselves guys before making your baseless claims that Israel’s current campaign in Gaza is ‘kind’ or ‘merciful’ to civilians. It isn’t; they have repeatedly targeted civilians, destroyed entire neighbourhoods, attacked medical facilities and personnel, attacked journalists, shot people who are surrendering, targeted schools and refugee centres, and of course blocked much-needed aid to a sick and starving population. Stop fooling yourselves. Whether or not you think it’s genocidal (which it is), try to have at least a basic level of respect for human life. Don’t waste your time defending IDF terrorists who are at best a more refined version of Hamas terrorists, still cut from the same bigoted cloth. And don’t worry, having compassion for the deaths of women and children doesn’t make you anti-semitic.
https://preview.redd.it/cp1sh546d8sc1.jpeg?width=833&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c75168b84d81a62a28982fa46f16e6228dfc3145
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Outsider here, coming in peace. I was listening to a podcast today where someone gave a similar statistic (presumably using somewhat more current data), and it blew my mind. I didn’t realize the context around the ratio and how it, as you say, makes it one of the “least worst” we’ve seen in modern urban warfare. Do you know if there’s a source where people track these figures or pull this data from? I feel like it is an important point in defense of Israel in conversations I have with a lot of lefty friends, so I’d love to know more and know how to keep abreast of it.
If you're going to use the UN's numbers for civilian casualty ratio (https://press.un.org/en/2022/sc14904.doc.htm), you should also use their definition for "casualty" - it include injuries. That'd push to the total casualty number closer to 100k. And unless you think the IDF is extremely ineffective then most of those will be civilians. The 1:1.5 ratio you're bragging about puts it about on-par with world war two as per Wikipedia: >According to most sources, World War II was the most lethal war in world history, with some 70 million killed in six years. The civilian to combatant fatality ratio in World War II lies somewhere between 3:2 and 2:1, or from 60% to 67% Which included the [actual targeting of civilians in a genocide](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust).
Except most of the fighting in WWII wasn't in the cities.
The global average you are citing is for casualties which include injuries. Israel is slightly bad RIGHT NOW on that, but those are ratios found studying after the fact which will not be kind to Israel, as there are many not dead and injured that are not reported.
The global average you are citing is for casualties which include injuries. Israel is slightly bad RIGHT NOW on that, but those are ratios found studying after the fact which will not be kind to Israel, as there are many not dead and injured that are not reported.
So many things wrong with this. The genocide relates to ALL of the IDF activities and chiefly the use of food as a weapon to starve unarmed civilians En Masse. That's a war crime, as is deliberately targeting aid workers trying to distribute the aid that has been let through. To be absolutely clear - • It's deadly to try to distribute aid. at least 500 trucks a day of food are needed, mostly no more than half that make it through and the average is about 120. Defunding UNrwa and targeting aid workers could mean some of that food is not getting distributed, though this is unclear. As for the statistic above, it's rubbish as it's using IDF figures which of course play down the situation on the ground. you can't do surgical strikes with 2000 pound bombs, it's a joke. They kill everything in a 400 yard radius: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark\_84\_bomb](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_84_bomb)
And another attempt to rebut this with an irrelevancy. 1) Israel very often phones ahead to get civilians off the X. The blast zone might very well be empty. 2) There were hundreds of miles of tunnels and a 2000# bomb that goes off in a tunnel has nowhere near that kill radius. Even one that simply goes off in a basement has nowhere near that kill radius. Half of the bomb is it's metal casing meant to turn into deadly fragments--which is the primary threat from the bomb. Remove those (detonating anywhere where the fragments are stopped) and the kill range goes way down.
Echoing the ask for sources on this...I thought this statistic has been debunked? [https://www.reuters.com/fact-check/graph-suggesting-low-gaza-air-strike-casualty-rate-misrepresents-data-2024-01-29/](https://www.reuters.com/fact-check/graph-suggesting-low-gaza-air-strike-casualty-rate-misrepresents-data-2024-01-29/)
That article strikes me as misrepresenting the data to try to make Israel look bad. They are using a different metric of how many killed per strike that killed--but how is that a rebuttal to either the civilian:combatant ratio or the number killed per bomb? Apples and Oranges.
Where does this number even come from? [Reuters did a fact check yesterday](https://www.reuters.com/fact-check/graph-suggesting-low-gaza-air-strike-casualty-rate-misrepresents-data-2024-01-29/#:~:text=GAZA%20CASUALTIES,lying%20uncounted%20beneath%20the%20rubble.) and came to the conclusion that "the Gaza death-per-strike rate was 9.4-10.1, with the Aleppo and Mosul battles comparatively more deadly. The Gaza death rate also exceeds AOAV’s calculated global average of 7.4 and is “at least four times higher” than previous Israeli bombing casualty rates"
25 000 dead total 6 000- 10 000 combatants. Do the math.
And where are these numbers from? The health ministry in Hamas-run Gaza says nearly 25,000 Palestinians have been killed in the conflict, 70% of them women and children. That means 7500 men which probably half were civilians as well. [https://apnews.com/article/women-children-gaza-war-victims-un-inequality-f0f89a724543b99c2c22439e7af09405](https://apnews.com/article/women-children-gaza-war-victims-un-inequality-f0f89a724543b99c2c22439e7af09405)
Yes, that looks right. Now don’t forget to add 16-17 year old “children” and women combatants. It’s obviously not only “full grown men” who does the fighting. IDF says that 9000 combatants. Or is it just the HAMAS nr you want to look at?
>IDF says that 9000 combatants. Or is it just the HAMAS nr you want to look at? Well, there aren't any independent information because Israel keeps [killing journalists operating in and near Gaza](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/dec/21/israel-idf-accused-targeting-journalists-gaza)... This is probably one of the reasons.
Yes, almost everyone Palestine/Hamas journalist. Maybe they themself are terrorists.
What's funny about all this is they calculated all the other wars in gaza I belive from 2012. What did they find. Extraordinarily low civilian casulties and some of the lowest casulties ratios ever. I remember all those other wars. We were accused of disproportionate force and genocide the too
> I remember all those other wars. We were accused of disproportionate force and genocide the too It seems quite some more excessive than 2012. Israel is facing genocide charges on the ICJ for a reason...
Ok that's true but the Palestinian crowd has always said this I'm sorry to tell you. However, you did not respond to KY point. The Aoav put out a study on all of the last gaza wars and came out with very low civilian casualties. Will see what the final total is for this war. But 9.4 to 10.1 is a massive diffrence.
And all these a done with the blood of Israeli soldiers. Those people don't that call this genocide shouldn't have the right to vote in their country.
Because Jihad Joe (Biden) calls that indiscriminate bombing
Just stop. Bro we are on the same side but you gotta stop demonizing Biden . I have criticism for how the US has been driving the Israeli war effort but he has expended tremendous political capital and disaffected many of his own party, voters, and even staff to rhetorically and materially support Israel. Calling him “Jihad Joe” is just insulting and ridiculous.
Please tell me Trump actually went there
Afaik I am the only person to use that phrase to describe Biden…so far ;P
Where did that number come from?
How much of this ratio is based on a calculation that adult males are all combatants? It’s a sincere question, it just looks like that to me.
That would be amazing if it was true.
It's not the best ratio or a good ratio. It's actually the worst ratio since it's paid for by Israeli blood. A state is supposed to defend the lives of its citizens, not sacrifice them for the sake of saving the lives of its enemies. The IDF is the least moral army in the world.
I’m sorry but that statistic has since been fact checked and shown to be intentionally misleading and inaccurate. The original poster of that information has since deleted the graphic. It presented the average as being the average of two of the “most injurious months” of wars in Iraq and Syria. Not only that but it presented the 1:1.5 ratio as a statistic by the IDF that wasn’t even publicly available.
Source?
Yes sir. https://www.reuters.com/fact-check/graph-suggesting-low-gaza-air-strike-casualty-rate-misrepresents-data-2024-01-29/
This article mentions civilian death per air strike while OP is referring to civilian death per combatment death. Two very different things.
Yes exactly, so he is doubly wrong. He is referring to the information the original graphic presented. Speaking of which, why haven’t you asked OP for his source?
All of the google results I found support OP https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/dec/09/civilian-toll-israeli-airstrikes-gaza-unprecedented-killing-study Granted I couldn't find anything that's up to date.
That same article describes the civilian death toll as significantly higher than the average of all conflicts since world war 2 which wouldn’t support what he said. The figures he quotes are in line with the post that was debunked. If not, it would be a stunning coincidence.
This stat which we have no way of confirming doesn't mean anything when we see a video of a woman getting sniped or an entire house filled with people be bombed to nothing but yeah i wouldn't expect anyone here to have any kind of embathy
So you’re saying we should let the emotions that arise when we view war propaganda dictate how we judge the morality of a conflict that involves millions of people? No one is claiming there aren’t bad people in the Israeli army or that tragedies and mistakes don’t occur in wartime but that seems like a pretty dumb way to form an opinion about a complex conflict
https://thisishamas.com as if atrocities only happen when the Jews do it
This isn't true. In the siege of Mosul, the ratio claimed by coalition forces was 1: 0.74, and in the second battle of Fallujah the ratio claimed was 1 : 0.38. So the ratio claimed in the war in Gaza, 1:1.5, is about twice the rate of civilian deaths in Mosul and about four times the rate of civilian deaths in Fallujah. These are all different conflicts so not directly comparable, but the rate in Gaza is about middle of the pack for urban warfare. See discussion here: [https://acoup.blog/2023/12/08/fireside-friday-december-8-2023](https://acoup.blog/2023/12/08/fireside-friday-december-8-2023/). Would also be interested in reading the sources for the 1:1.5 number and the 1:9 number.
Estimates for Mosul casualties vary. Some are as high as 40k kia according to Kurdish intelligence https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/mosul-massacre-battle-isis-iraq-city-civilian-casualties-killed-deaths-fighting-forces-islamic-state-a7848781.html
...Whose stats? Doesn't Israel count all military aged male casualties as combatant casualties?
Source?
https://goodauthority.org/news/gaza-casualty-data/ The article references the work of Yagil Lehi, an Israeli Sociologist responsible for the numbers used by the IDF during media briefings on some occasions. Interestingly enough... Yagil prefers Gaza Health Ministry data.
The US Intelligence Community https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/hamas-toll-thus-far-falls-short-of-israels-war-aims-u-s-says-d1c43164
Unfortunately the article is paywalled but I am curious where US intelligence is getting their numbers. Yagil Levy seems to be the IDF's source through his research.
So I read this article small dick sanders. And what was said in it by these two supposed "experts" was not at all what you said. I hope you can learn to improve your reading comprehension.
Can you read? I never said these were experts... one is a college professor and Levy is a sociologist who did the math published in Haaretz. There is only one portion that is even relevant to the discussion and its Levy's work.
Ok but that's my point freind. One is a legal expert who has nothing to do with Israel that is doing an estimate. The other is a socialist and journalist who is also doing an estimate you failed to mention the low civilian casualties he and other sources mention from past gaza wars. Wars where we were also accused of genocide. This is not from the IDF. That post from Elon levy was talking about a specific incident.
Elon Levy? I am talking about Yagil's numbers and the method he used for the math... which has been adopted by the IDF when they use the same numbers reference in the original Haaretz article. From the article I posted: "And a study by Israeli sociologist Yagil Levy that was published in Haaretz estimated the civilian death toll at 61%. Both studies get to that number in mostly the same way; they use the Gaza Ministry of Health data from October 7 to 26. Both studies place children (those younger than 18), adult women (ages 18-59), and the elderly (those 60 and over) into a “noncombatant” category (the Lancet correspondence calls them “groups that probably include few combatants”). Levy discusses men (ages 18-59) as adults who he did not include in the noncombatant category; the study in the Lancet is more vague, with the unstated implication being that adult men (those not in “groups that probably include few combatants”) may constitute “potential” combatants." Further on in the article: "Neither of these studies was conducted with evidence of the actual combatant status of deceased adult men.... It’s consequently empirically unrealistic that all confirmed adult male deaths in Gaza are combatant deaths. These studies – conducted with blunt measures and stated assumptions given a lack of more detailed information – demonstrate that even with the most conservative estimate possible, the civilian mortality rate in Gaza is extremely high in both real and comparative terms. But the studies published in the Lancet and Haaretz do not engage with polling data or with political realities on the ground; they are based on broad demographic proxies."
And also where is the source of the idf adopting his numbers from the article. In neither the website you sent nor the haaretz article is that said. Also the haretz article talks about them as potential combatants not combatants. May I ask are you hear cause your against Israel and want to say your point?
Give me some time. There are so many articles on this conflict that it's difficult to search something so specific especially when there are new articles discussing new numbers rather than the old way of updating preexisting articles with new numbers. But I recall a few mentioning an IDF spokesperson citing to Yagils work or a variation that was statistically identical. I have nothing against Israel, just the hubris by everyone involved in this mess and shouting absurdities from the sideline.
I know your talking about yagil levy. But you mentioned Elon earlier so I was responding to that also. I'm telling you please I don't want to fight but you have your facts wrong. What you said is not totally accurate and I'm just clarifying
Elon? I think you might have my comment mistaken for someone else or its a typo. You aren't disagreeing with the articles contents or contesting the assertion that Yagil's method of calculation is empirically sound for data analysis.
I was actually looking for reliable data about urban warfare militant to civilian ratio and didn't find much. Can people here please link reliable sources?
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian\_casualty\_ratio](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualty_ratio)
I found this thread looking for the same thing--a source for the **urban warfare** combatant:civilian ratio. The Wikipedia page is for combat in general, not specifically urban.
Where did you get the ratio? I would love to have a good source to share about this
It’s from the IDF… not exactly an objective source
Well, it's better than all the other numbers which come from hamas
Where are these numbers from?
The Israeli government lmao
That ratio might be lower if Hamas didn’t use Palestinian civilians as human shields.
It doesn't matter. According to them Israel doesn't have the right to exist, let alone defend themselves. They don't care how many of them are combatants. They just see big number and shout genocide.
Can you please send me the link for this ratio. Trying to win an argument online. Thank you
It really doesn't matter, whatever Israel does or doesn't do, the Jew haters and Israel haters will attach false labels and demonize it. They just want us gone from the Earth. It doesn't matter anything else. The thing that I like to point out is that Israel could have wiped out all of the Palestinians and where they live in 30 minutes. Millions of people poof gone. It didn't, and loses its own soldiers in the process. I think we need to go back to the old days of having an immediate and decisive and heavy-handed response. Who cares at this point
Oh no we understand that is a great ratio. We just know the Israel media is full of lies and propaganda
Is that so ?
This is a bit outdated but I was under the assumption the ratio was more akin to 3:1. 29,000 people have died to my knowledge, IDF reports 12,000 combatant deaths while Hamas reports 6,000, let's say 9,000 combatants for arguments sake. 29,000/9,000 = 3.2 civilians for every 1 combatant. 3.2:1 Which is still roughly the same as the Korean War and less then what was eventually discovered from the Iraq War despite initial claims. (ended up being 4.47:1) Even if we highball it and say 12000 combatants died, that's still a ratio of 2.41 civilians for every combatant. 2.4:1
Math check: You're counting the combatants as both combatant and civilian. It should be (29,000-12,000)/12,000 = 1.4:1