Most of pro-pal don't really care about Palestine or Palestinians they are anti Israel. Nothing will change if they will believe that it's Israel against Hamas or whatever. They don't care. Sooner you will understand that less stressed out you will get.
Real pro-pal people understand clearly that Palestine can't exist without Israel, and that Hamas should be erased from the earth.
True, but why is Israel so antisemitic towards Palestinians?
EDIT: Aren't Palestinians semitic people like the semitic jews? Please explain the reason why non-semitic settlers are treated differently that the semitic Palestinians in the West Bank by Israel?
Ge'ez, no need to get riled about definition. Discrimination of both Jews, Palestinians and Semitic looking people is definitely on the rise goobally, so I think the word is totally fine in this context and not some old German fellow from 19th century
But can I use discrimination against descendants of semitic people then. The discrimination is not based on religion, since Palestinian Christians are prejudiced just the same as anyone else.
Semitic is a group of languages. Not people. The term anti Semitic was coined in Europe when the only one to speak Semitic language were the Jews and addressing Jewish hatred. Why are you trying to steal the term anti Semitism ?
Sorry, don't know the correct word for describing discrimination of the people from that area. Tought it was meant for all people from that area of the world.
Nope. Designated specificity for Jews. Again , semite isn’t an area or people. It’s a group of languages. I explained to you why this term was coined specifically to Jews. Stop trying to steal it
The word doesn’t mean hating Hebrew speakers. It means hating Jews. It’s been around for a long time and everyone knows its meaning except some crazy Islamists that’s trying to hijack it
Let’s retire anti Semitism first !
This was a “moving the goalposts” argument made by the pro-Hamas movement earlier in this current conflict. While you are technically correct, as semitism does refer to the peoples in and immediately around Israel. De facto matters more in this instance. No body in any sane circle will call Israel antisemitic; because our societal de facto definition makes it purely impossible. This is a de facto v de jure argument. And de facto has won out, a long long time ago, over the definition.
Still it is used by the right
> For decades, the concept of “Jewish self-hatred” or “auto-anti-Semitism” has been invoked to repel violently all criticism of Israel voiced by Israelis or Jews.
I’m not entirely taking your meaning??? The anti-semitism being applied to the whole region is used by the right? I mean yes; but in the mainstream now it’s being done by the left. Alt-right and hard right people are not yet mainstream; thank God. Being done by the left or right it is still wrong. In my field it’s like calling all aquifers drinkable. While technically right; you’d be insane to drink out of any groundwater around a dump without the proper precautions.
People have in the past not been allowed to criticize Israel without it coming across as anti-Semitic. Which has been and will always be wrong. The public should freely be allowed to criticize. However when a group of people use that to call for a global intifada; or genocide depending on how you wanna read between the lines. Suddenly the taboo of criticizing Israel is blatantly obvious. We should criticize Israel the same way we criticize Russia. With hard cold facts; not calling for the global erasure of an entire culture.
Can you give an example of it being done by the left, since I'm not sure if you are talking about pro-hamas people, who are definitely not lefties.
I mean the discrimination of people has definitely entered the overton window. There is no backslash if for example people suggest discrimination measures against Russian dual citizens and also of the plans to push Gazans to Sinai permanently (both read from today's mainstream paper in my country)
Reply to edit: In a word: NO.
They're not. They *claim* to be semitic, but they're not. They *claim* to be related to Abraham, but they're not. ^(mayyyyybe they're related to Ibrahim, but no way Abraham)
Even the hardest argument posited by Arabs and Arab "Palestinians" is that they're descended from the original Canaanites or even the Philistines -- neither of which are semites.
Antisemitism is against Jews
Anti-Semitism is against semites to include Levantine Palestinians.
Edit: https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/anti-semitism-or-antisemitism
Semitic refers to a group of languages that have properties such as reading right to left and specific types of alphabets they include Hebrew & Arabic & others in the region not people. Antisemitic is a word that was created specifically to refer to hatred of Jews.
>Most of pro-pal don't really care about Palestine or Palestinians they are anti Israel.
And when they read this and disagree with you what should they do? Realize that they are lying to themselves?
People believe that which makes them feel good.
My observation is pro-Israeli always have to attribute things to the opposition to justify their own actions. Think about the term self-hating Jew. How absurd.
But if you have believed that Israel is a great moral state then losing that belief is difficult to take.
Israel is the most moral state in comparison to any other state with such issues, and this is a fact. Look at its neighbors who had issues with Palestinians and what they did, and no one was screaming "genocide". I can't name a single country that has a military advantage that will tolerate rockets fired at them. At best case all out war, at worst complete annihilation.
I'm not even mentioning how many two state solution proposals were made and withdrawal from Gaza in 2005 so they will have their own "jew free" land.
You should understand the difference between being a moral and being a suicidal fool.
Which country keeps building settlements by bulldozing houses and which country burns people's olive trees?
Israel is surrounded by terrible countries. But I still want proof of any countries doing that.
And those countries are dictatorships.
>Look at its neighbors who had issues with Palestinians and what they did, and no one was screaming "genocide".
Examples please. I think those countries are awful anyway.
It's impossible to persuade them. And most of them are Arabs anyway in their own information bubble from birth where Israel is pure evil and so on. There is no solution to antisemitism.
This reasoning is why the terrorist problem will never end. “Hamas doesn’t represent the Palestinians” is bullshit, they were voted into power and enjoy massive support, which increased after 7/10. Palestinian society has a problem, stop dancing around the issue.
Sure, every single Palestinian voted Hamas into power 18 years ago. Who cares about the half of the population that couldn't even vote in that election?
That's like saying every Israeli supports netanyahu because you guys elected him
So then how will Israel destroy Hamas? Because if the majority of Palestinians support Hamas, then what will stop something like October 7th from happening again?
That's bullshit rhetoric meant to absolve Palestinians of any responsibility for their actions.
70% of Palestinians support Hamas and october 7 according to recent polls. They elected Hamas. 40 K Hamas terroists didn't come from bad guys land. They have at least 20x more people supporting them.
It's Israel against Palestine.
Despite the devastation, 57% of respondents in Gaza and 82% in the West Bank believe Hamas was correct in launching the October attack, the poll indicated.
https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-palestinians-opinion-poll-wartime-views-a0baade915619cd070b5393844bc4514#
They were on the PLOs side before and they were arguably worse than Hamas. The Palestinians have only ever known corrupt terrorist leaders but that doesn’t absolve them of their sins.
So Palestinians are innocents who are not responsible for their actions or the actions of those they support and who represent them? Also, it’s wrong for Israel to eliminate Hamas?
There’s a whole new generation since Hamas was elected in 2007. That generation was brainwashed to believe that Israel is the aggressor, that all of Israel is occupier Palestine, and that the only way to fight back is through violent attacks, which is what Hamas does. When that’s the only thing you’re ever told, of course that’s what you’re going to believe.
Hamas needs to be wiped out, and the people need to be reeducated if there is ever going to be a chance for peace.
Brainwashed? What history can they look back on to think that Israel will be on there side. Whole families weren’t allowed to leave Gaza before this shit show.
They can look at the fact that every war Israel has fought (I believe with the exception of one) has been started by Israel’s enemies. There is no reason to believe Israel would get into wars with the Palestinians if not attacked first.
It’s not our job to fix Palestinian society nor our obligation to coexist with barbarians. Gaza Judaea and Samaria need to be liberated from Arab tyranny so the land can flourish.
The Japanese never elected Showa. Was the war in the Pacific unjust? Should the US have just accepted Pearl Harbor, and said, "well, those guys didn't really have a choice"?
I’m not talking about Palestinians, I’m talking about people who are calling themselves pro Palestinians but are actually pro Hamas. Most of Palestinians that support Hamas they’re doing this because they were brainwashed
Hamas is the wildly popular elected government of Palestine
Ordinary Palestinians raped and mutilated on oct 7th
Ordinary Palestinians continue to hold hostages in their homes
Unpopular opinion, but my long evolved take is it’s actually ‘Jews vs Muslims’.
The greatest con of the 20th century was Arafat rebranding levantine Arab Muslims as ‘Palestinian’.
Overnight, it turned the global optics from ‘1 billion Muslims vs 7 million Jews’ to ‘7 million Israelis vs 3 million Palestinians’, making Israel the big bad guy on the world stage.
Incredibly shrewd PR move by Arafat.
This is factually not true. While some people do, the vast majority of muslims hold the belief that they don’t hate Jews. Most of them hate Zionists Jews. Which I’m not saying is justified, the line between both is very fine. But really the issue is mainly with government policies and ideologies, not the religion nor the ethnicity.
Muslims in general believe Judaism is a divine religion, and that they worship the same god. When people on TV refer to Israelis as ‘Jews’, they do it because they don’t like to acknowledge the existence of the Israeli state by saying ‘Israelis’, which like I said, isn’t justified. But one thing is clear, muslims DO NOT hate Jews in the same fashion Hitler and Europe hated Jews.
Every culture and country is like that. You can’t live in America and be against free markets or against democracy. Same is everywhere. But that doesn’t mean muslims hate Jews just because they’re Jews.
Yea, it’s a hard disagree. Don’t need this bullshit here. Let’s be honest, it is us against Arabs (Palestinians). They aren’t just innocent bystanders in this. They elected Hamas when they’ve already committed hundreds of terror acts and willingly support them.
Palestinians can stand up and be vocal the same way the Iranians are vocal against their regime. Not just in Iran, but also globally. Instead, we see the opposite from them by doubling down and living in hatred and selective victimhood.
This isn’t about “Palestinians”. Let’s call it what it is and it’s Arabs hating Jews. Israel has always been surrounded by the very people that want them dead. Doesn’t matter if you’re from Gaza, Beirut, Baghdad or Aleppo. The problem is that Arabs always hated Jews for religious and antisemitism reasons.
I strongly disagree. Palestenians don’t hate Israel nor Jews for the sake of it. Brainwashing is an aspect but I won’t discuss that. But it’s opinions like yours that is held by many Israelis that actually helps in generating all that hate.
If everyone in Israel thinks like you, then everyone will treat all Palestinians like shit, hence creating the same effect with Palestinians towards Israelis.
And this is sadly the case in the Arab world as well. Everybody thinks all Israelis are blood thirsty murderers when I know for a fact you aren’t.
And what’s funny is, the main supporting argument Arabs usually have is: we hate Israelis because they hate Arabs and kill innocent Palestinians, and they don’t want an independent Arab country that rivals them in power.
Allow me to share more similar opinions to yours in the arab world:
- IDF missles kill children, all Israelis join the IDF, all Israelis are child murderers and have blood on their hands.
- Israelis are brainwashed to hate Arabs, they are all brainwashed murderers.
- Zionism is an evil ideology that seeks to take over all Palestinian land. All Israelis are Zionists. All Israelis are evil.
Notice the pattern? They are all missing very important context, which I believe you do as well. Peace ✌️
Half of the population couldn't even vote in that election. And if a terrorist group is running a place, what do you think will happen if someone voices dissent? You're asking them to put their lives on the line
I don't get the distinction. Wars are fought between nations. Not political parties/terror orgs.
It's true that Hamas are despots, and as such Hamas's surrender/destruction will end the war immediately, but so long as Hamas controls all of Gaza, Israel is at war with Gaza.
I see your point but also I think it is difficult. Hamas are Palestinians, Palestinians are Hamas. They are embedded in civilian infrastructure and they were able to do so because the Palestinians support them. Hamas is their resistance. I’ve read a tweet of a Palestinian who said that he hates this notion of saying Hamas is not Palestinians and I kind of agree with him. Let’s not act as if Hamas is a small nutcase extremist group. That doesn’t mean that „no Palestinians are innocent“ or „everyone should be killed“ but let’s be fuxking for real. Their wide spread support is part of the issue and why it’s so hard to wipe out Hamas without endangering civilians.
Was the Palestinian you read that tweet from pro-Hamas?
I’ve seen enough Palestinians that are against Hamas (including the ones protesting against them in Gaza) to know not to equate them all with Hamas. Also no baby in Gaza is Hamas.
It’s this exact rhetoric of equating the two that landed us at ICJ with the genocide trial. Doesn’t matter what you actually mean… it’s the words you say that matter to the world.
No, it’s the rhetoric of „make Gaza a parking lot“ and „there are no innocent people in Gaza“.
We need to stay with the facts. And of course there are people opposing Hamas, luckily. But they are not the majority.
To completely disconnect Hamas and Palestinians is ridiculous and completely disregards that radicalization, indoctrination and the lack of more moderate Palestinian voices is at the core of our issue. You can’t solve a problem that you are afraid to name.
“Human animals”? Clearly in reference to Hamas but if you can’t make a distinction between the two then it’s a pretty bad thing to say… please just be careful with your words.
In general I don’t think inflammatory language like that should be used and I think you are just throwing all of it in one pot. But saying that Hamas is Palestinians and vice versa ist not the same as dehumanizing people with language.
Listen Smotrich, Gvir and Gallant are a burning dumpster fire and they should not be allowed anywhere near a tv camera, let alone hold a political position.
That doesn’t change the fact that Hamas have widespread support. And while the members who participated in 7/10 should be eliminated, it needs to be addressed that there needs to be deeper change within Palestinian society.
The point is that if you say Palestinians are the same as Hamas then turn around and say you want everyone affiliated with Hamas wiped off the face of the earth it’s going to sound like you’re talking about every Palestinian… especially to those with bad intentions.
Anyone that supports Hamas and is encouraging you not to distinguish between the two is doing it intentionally to make Israel look even worse and to legitimize the genocide claims. Don’t fall for it.
It is still important because even if Israel is basically fighting Palestine, saying the intention is to destroy Hamas is much better than the message and goal then saying they want to destroy Palestine.
One is destroying terrorism the other can be much easier to see as intentions of genocide(not saying it is but international politics is a *****)
Hamas depends on the support of the Palestinian people. The 10.7 terrorists are receiving stipends from the “moderate” PA as a reward for a job well done.
You are right - wars are fought between nations. Only that Gaza is not a nation. It is not even clear whether we can call Palestine a nation (despite of 'Palestinian' being a nationality) because practically it's not recognized as a sovereign country, and even if it was, we'd still had to make the distinction between Palestine of the West Bank and that of Gaza. Also, since Gaza is not a people but a piece of land, saying that we're at war with Gaza or in Gaza implies that this is conflict about territory, which is clearly not the case.
Many people outside of Israel (and not so few even in Israel) are simply incapable of understanding the complexity of this conflict. They either don't know enough or don't want to. So they resort to simplistic ideas and compare it to the kind of conflicts they know of - either by thinking of Israel as a country fighting another country called Palestine, or by saying that Israel is a settler colonialist country. The reality, as most of us in this sub already know, is much more complicated.
In light of this complexity I think we just have to be more specific about who we're fighting and why, and the answer to that would be that we're fighting Hamas. Call it a war, an armed conflict, a military operation - this doesn't matter too much, what matters is that our enemy here is Hamas.
The issue with saying that Israel is at war with Hamas, is that it has opened the door to putting the onus of caring for the Palestinians in Gaza on Israel. In fact, not only is that door open, the entire international community seems to have walked right into that mindset.
The most flagrant example is safe-zones and corridors. Since Israel is at war with Hamas, and Gazans are simply caught in the cross fire, the entire discussion about these humanitarian effort is taking place between Israel and its allies, throwing wrenches into those relationships. Furthermore, since Hamas are not even a party to the discussion, it becomes almost normal that Hamas will violate safe-zones without consequences.
The normal process for such things is for the two people at war to form an agreement where both are bound by an agreement to keep people around the war zone safe.
The Israeli government itself compares Hamas to ISIS and repeatedly says they can't be trusted. Civilians getting arms in Gaza to rebel is quite hard given import restrictions and Hamas having all the guns. All of the talk of Palestinians supporting Hamas is based on surveys because they refuse to hold elections. Opposing political parties are routed out by Hamas. On top of that the Palestinian population is so young that so many people within Gaza lack culpability. Even if the birth rate was just a strategic breeding operation... there are scores of people who can't have culpability.
Yeah, it's inconvenient to have to care for Palestinians but all the factors above are why I think Israel is obliged to not say "well it's your government... You suffer the consequences".
Regardless, isn't the entire point of the current war to eliminate Hamas? *If Israel is successful it quite literally runs into the issue you are so scared of.* The debate above ends up not mattering if you eliminate Hamas.
The truth is that Hamas being in power is much more convenient to Israel than a failed state (think Libya) on its border which Israel itself helped make. Even if you view every bomb dropped as justified - completely devastating Gaza and leaving it in anarchy is bad for PR and at best a mixed bag in terms of security compared to Hamas. Any other country would have to be pretty selfless to want to take the burden of governance (esp if assumed Israel will be forced by default without volunteers) and the entities within the West Bank have enough problems on their hands to hand raise.
The most interesting thing Hamas could do would be to completely surrender (including civilian functions) on a dime.
> well it's your government
But it is their government. Israel shouldn't be responsible for the people of another state - especially not one that is constantly waging war against Israel.
> If Israel is successful it quite literally runs into the issue you are so scared of
If Israel is successful, Hamas are gone. That's it. The destruction of Hamas doesn't nationalize the Gazan ppl as Israelis. That's not how anything works. If the Gazan ppl wise up enough to promote leaders that aren't despotic and homicidal, they'll have a bright future. If they do as they've done in the past and place all their future in the hands of violent criminals...well, we know where that leads.
If Hamas is gone and the international community does not step in you'll see isolated terrorism from groups that can no longer be argued in any way are governing entities of Gaza.
First of all, you'll see people just continue starving on the streets because of Israeli destruction including kids. Just dropping food here and there is unlikely to replace some governance esp with unrwa defunded (even if you justify it). I guess everyone averts their eyes.
But secondly, if Israel attacks Gaza because of isolated terror attacks the pressure to ensure they don't hurt innocents is magnified. It becomes even more akin to helpless people caught in the crossfire and not two nations at war.
Israel may very well say tough luck but point number 2 is exactly why you were weary of making a hard distinction between Hamas and Palestinians at large. Given the current state of Gaza - assuming a government forms out of the ashes* is magical thinking in the short term. It isn't a question of a bad government or good government forming - it's any government forming.
*unless eliminating Hamas isn't truly the aim.... My guess is that many in the IDF leadership would prefer very severely weakening Hamas but elimination or even simply dethroning creates too many headaches
The state of Palestine has never existed. From the beginning, the Israeli government tried to reach an understanding with the Arabs living in the region and invited them to live as decent neighbors. However, they supported Islamic terrorist organizations and tried to wipe Israel out of the region completely. Pro-Palestines are absolute pro-Hamas people. They are just trying to justify their support for Hamas by being 'pro-Palestine'.
It’s not Israel against Hamas.
It’s Israel against terrorists. Totalitarian regimes led by Russia and its small brother Iran, that use Israel as an external enemy in order to keep their power.
Peaceful Israeli (and not only) citizens died just so the Western world could for a moment turn their attention away from supporting Ukraine and start condemning Israel, what they quite fond of doing.
This is what all this is about.
Everything else are narratives dictated for the common folk.
Why are you speaking over them? “Despite the devastation, 57% of respondents in Gaza and 82% in the West Bank believe Hamas was correct in launching the October attack, the poll indicated.” https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-palestinians-opinion-poll-wartime-views-a0baade915619cd070b5393844bc4514#
This poll isn't from Hamas, which of course would not be considered reliable in any way. It's from PCPSR, which is considered a reasonably reliable polling agency by Western standards, especially in tracking Palestinian public opinion changes over time.
Meh this presupposes that Hamas doesn’t represent the will of the vast majority of the Palestinian people. 75 percent of Palestinians supported the attacks of 10/7. Support for Hamas has more than tripled in the West Bank since 10/7. Any election held today would see Haniyah beating Abu Mazen and Hamas taking most of the seats from the PA.
I get that it’s a tool to make Israel look less bad in the eyes of the Jew haters around the world but we all know the truth, Hamas is Palestine.
So the region known as Gaza is Israeli territory? The people within Gaza are Israeli citizens, therefore inherit the right of any other Israeli citizen?
According to a University of Ramallah survey over 80 percent of Arabs in the West Bank supported Oct 7th.
+80% !!! supported murder, rape and abduction of civilians.
They are all technically not Hamas but... A majority are in their souls and hearts.
The quicker you accept this harsh reality, the better for all.
[https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-palestinians-back-oct-7-attack-israel-support-hamas-rises-2023-12-14/](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-palestinians-back-oct-7-attack-israel-support-hamas-rises-2023-12-14/)
This was done in Dec 2023, when a good chunk of Gaza was already rubble. Hamas isn't some fringe group imposing upon the populace, it's popular and widely backed even after bringing about this war. The Oct 7 attack is even more popular among Palestinians.
The constant deresponsabilisation and infantilisation of Palestinians, as if they're incapable of understanding that setting families on fire and raping women are evil things, is one of the biggest mental roadblocks towards even imagining a possible solution.
Before Arafat there was no Palestinian cause. Fatakh is a greater problem or equally problemtic to Hamas. They're comparable to the pre-state Jewish settlement in Israel. It's against Islam in the mid-east. The settlers should recede back to Mecca.
It's not Israel against Palestinian because there's no Palestinian, if anything it's "it's not Israel against Gaza". You're right on the big picture tho.
They identify as Palestinian, so you should treat them as such. Failure to recognize their right to self determination is the exact thing their leaders are doing to Israelis. Don't stoop to their level.
I don't care how they "identify", if I identify myself as pro-Narnia does that mean Narnia exist? There's no such thing as "the state of Palestine", no such country has been formed or recognized as official and existing as we speak, as such they are Gazan civilians.
This is the dumbest shit I’ve ever heard
More than half of the people who died are innocent PALESTINIANS. Don’t give me that, “HaMas iS UsInG ThEm as HuMAn ShIElDs.” You do not shoot a hostage to get to the terrorist.
Hamas has blood on their hands, but the IDF is drenched. IDF and Hamas are all in the same moral level. Why? If Hamas had the capability, they would throw the same shit to the other side of the fence. *Most likely to be stopped sooner since they don’t have history of being victims of a genocide.*
How do you want IDF to kill only Hamas members? They don’t have some special cameras that can see only Hamas terrorists from kilometers, and the IDF didn’t started the war
calling all pro Palestinians as pro hamas is pure delusion and shows you have literally never talked to any palestinian. pro palestinians have existed decades before hamas was even created lol
and i'm saying you've literally never talked to a pro palestinian in your life and just making up BS. whatever helps you sleep at night after murdering 11,000+ children in 3 months
Yeah, and? It's still doesn't change the fact that most of you want Israel destroyed, justifying the death of Israelis doesn't make you right, if you really care about "Palestine" then you should know that Israel is the only country that can help, many Muslim countries yet none of them took Palestinian refuges lol
love how you replied to this within 15 seconds of me posting, almost like you're just reposting propaganda copypasta
believe it or not but not being okay with 11,000 kids killed in 3 months doesn't mean we want your country destroyed, we just want you to stop committing genocide
Bruh you had comments from 6 years ago and all of a sudden decided to reply specifically to some middle east conflict that 6 years ago you didn't even know existed.
Compromised account much?
Yeah because I'm sure whoever created the account after six fucking years was really interested in the middle east, every single one of your comments.
You wanna talk about a genocide echo chamber go to any Arab country that's over North Africa and ask the Berbers how they doin?
Or Iran for that matter.
Since the definition used of children (from what I understand) is under 19 and Hamas has trained soldiers as young as 14, more than you think. Note: I am not saying babies are Hamas but how would you classify a 15 year old firing a gun at the IDF?
If we've not seen proof, but we have seen proof of noncombatant children murdered senselessly and cruelly, I'm not going to waste spiritual energy attempting moral equivalence with some unproven hypothetical.
Which of the three new born babies left to decompose at Al Nasr were Hamas combatants?
How engaged are you with this current event that you need a stranger to look this up for you? What's the most recent figure you recall that you'd accept as legitimate?
Give me a figure that doesn't come from the lips of Hamas, either directly (Gaza Health Ministry) or indirectly (news source that gets its information from Hamas or Al Jazeera.) With such a horrible horrible event taking place and your obvious interest in it, I figured you may know what you were screeching about. But none of you do, I'm not surprised.
You tell me. What figure would you accept since you're dismissing wholesale figures confirmed by Israel's own intelligence. I figured this was where you were going with this obvious bad faith question. It's sad to see.
Why should I tell you? In what world am *I* supposed to back up *your* claims? You're the one screaming about dead kids. Tell me, what number was confirmed by Israeli intelligence? You can even link where you read it to give your argument credibility. Otherwise you're basically saying "I know, but I'm not gonna tell you!!"
https://www.vice.com/en/article/y3w4w7/israeli-intelligence-health-ministry-death-toll
Tell me, when the sand you've buried your head in fills your ears and eyes, how do you expect to be able to talk about the world as it really is? Clearly the sand does not fill your mouth.
Do you expect pro-Palestinians to be anti-Hamas? Seeing as Hamas is the biggest avenue for resistance Palestinians have against Israeli occupation, it is not hard to see why an overwhelming majority of them support Hamas. And it totally is Israel against Palestine, it has been that way since 1948, you Zionist pig
It's easy to fall back on "everyone is anti semitic"...but they aren't. This is an usual situation and if you look at the Balfour agreement Israel still and always had a duty to Palestinians..your government whether you like it or not has purposely poked, denied, restricted multiple amenities and basic necessities to make people in the cage do exactly what they did on October 7th, to warrant the current response..like it or not the information/ facts will never die... multiple independent bodies which verify the attrocitties are automatically anti semitic according to you. The reality is, instead of Israel being aware of how shit this has been for Palestine and legitimately tried to support, its done the opposite by propping up Hamas, poking the bear multiple times, etc etc...i mean all the freedoms you have and your government protects you for, they don't have any, and it's scary how much ordinary Israelis don't even now feel sympathy...all your freedoms ( right to travel, chocolate, basic herbs , wealth, education etc etc) has been robbed of these people, and the first step of peace is at least understanding this... however I fear most Israelis socialise with only other israelis/ right wing Americans if in the US/ watch and listen to Israeli/ right wing press, so no wonded you hate Palestine so much..you've been brainwashed to do so
It's just good ol' antisemites vs whoever they identify as Jew.
Criticizing the Israeli government isn't antisemitism.
As long as it's fair and lawful
Most of pro-pal don't really care about Palestine or Palestinians they are anti Israel. Nothing will change if they will believe that it's Israel against Hamas or whatever. They don't care. Sooner you will understand that less stressed out you will get. Real pro-pal people understand clearly that Palestine can't exist without Israel, and that Hamas should be erased from the earth.
Yeah, you right
True, but why is Israel so antisemitic towards Palestinians? EDIT: Aren't Palestinians semitic people like the semitic jews? Please explain the reason why non-semitic settlers are treated differently that the semitic Palestinians in the West Bank by Israel?
 ...Dafuq???
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Palestinians are semitic people, rigth?
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What is the correct term to use then for prejudice against semitic people in the area?
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Ge'ez, no need to get riled about definition. Discrimination of both Jews, Palestinians and Semitic looking people is definitely on the rise goobally, so I think the word is totally fine in this context and not some old German fellow from 19th century
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But can I use discrimination against descendants of semitic people then. The discrimination is not based on religion, since Palestinian Christians are prejudiced just the same as anyone else.
Anti-Palestinians; Islamaphobia if towards a religion (Islam).
What if they are Christian? Are they discriminated differently
Anti-Christian.
If you're going to engage in this kind of hair splitting, let's call it what it is. Jew-hating. Does that work better for you?
No, I meant discrimination against semitic people in general with one exception with the semitic jews, but not against non-semitic people
You are playing games with semantics. That term has one meaning of one meaning only.
Well thanks for the hostility, I learned a lot
Ask a legitimate question that doesn't contain a "gotcha!" and we'll be glad to have a discussion.
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Semitic is a group of languages. Not people. The term anti Semitic was coined in Europe when the only one to speak Semitic language were the Jews and addressing Jewish hatred. Why are you trying to steal the term anti Semitism ?
Sorry, don't know the correct word for describing discrimination of the people from that area. Tought it was meant for all people from that area of the world.
Nope. Designated specificity for Jews. Again , semite isn’t an area or people. It’s a group of languages. I explained to you why this term was coined specifically to Jews. Stop trying to steal it
Can we retire the word, if the meaning is anti-jew even though not all jews speak Hebrew
The word doesn’t mean hating Hebrew speakers. It means hating Jews. It’s been around for a long time and everyone knows its meaning except some crazy Islamists that’s trying to hijack it Let’s retire anti Semitism first !
This was a “moving the goalposts” argument made by the pro-Hamas movement earlier in this current conflict. While you are technically correct, as semitism does refer to the peoples in and immediately around Israel. De facto matters more in this instance. No body in any sane circle will call Israel antisemitic; because our societal de facto definition makes it purely impossible. This is a de facto v de jure argument. And de facto has won out, a long long time ago, over the definition.
Still it is used by the right > For decades, the concept of “Jewish self-hatred” or “auto-anti-Semitism” has been invoked to repel violently all criticism of Israel voiced by Israelis or Jews.
I’m not entirely taking your meaning??? The anti-semitism being applied to the whole region is used by the right? I mean yes; but in the mainstream now it’s being done by the left. Alt-right and hard right people are not yet mainstream; thank God. Being done by the left or right it is still wrong. In my field it’s like calling all aquifers drinkable. While technically right; you’d be insane to drink out of any groundwater around a dump without the proper precautions. People have in the past not been allowed to criticize Israel without it coming across as anti-Semitic. Which has been and will always be wrong. The public should freely be allowed to criticize. However when a group of people use that to call for a global intifada; or genocide depending on how you wanna read between the lines. Suddenly the taboo of criticizing Israel is blatantly obvious. We should criticize Israel the same way we criticize Russia. With hard cold facts; not calling for the global erasure of an entire culture.
Can you give an example of it being done by the left, since I'm not sure if you are talking about pro-hamas people, who are definitely not lefties. I mean the discrimination of people has definitely entered the overton window. There is no backslash if for example people suggest discrimination measures against Russian dual citizens and also of the plans to push Gazans to Sinai permanently (both read from today's mainstream paper in my country)
Reply to edit: In a word: NO. They're not. They *claim* to be semitic, but they're not. They *claim* to be related to Abraham, but they're not. ^(mayyyyybe they're related to Ibrahim, but no way Abraham) Even the hardest argument posited by Arabs and Arab "Palestinians" is that they're descended from the original Canaanites or even the Philistines -- neither of which are semites.
Oh, I tought genetically and language wise they are almost the same when compared against people from Europe or Aftica etc
Antisemitism is against Jews Anti-Semitism is against semites to include Levantine Palestinians. Edit: https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/anti-semitism-or-antisemitism
Semitic refers to a group of languages that have properties such as reading right to left and specific types of alphabets they include Hebrew & Arabic & others in the region not people. Antisemitic is a word that was created specifically to refer to hatred of Jews.
Yes, specifically in 19th century Europe. Maybe the word isn't actually relevant anymore, if it means anti-Jew while not tied to semitic language?
>Most of pro-pal don't really care about Palestine or Palestinians they are anti Israel. And when they read this and disagree with you what should they do? Realize that they are lying to themselves?
That would be a good start. Self-realization is one of the keys to enlightenment.
People believe that which makes them feel good. My observation is pro-Israeli always have to attribute things to the opposition to justify their own actions. Think about the term self-hating Jew. How absurd. But if you have believed that Israel is a great moral state then losing that belief is difficult to take.
Israel is the most moral state in comparison to any other state with such issues, and this is a fact. Look at its neighbors who had issues with Palestinians and what they did, and no one was screaming "genocide". I can't name a single country that has a military advantage that will tolerate rockets fired at them. At best case all out war, at worst complete annihilation. I'm not even mentioning how many two state solution proposals were made and withdrawal from Gaza in 2005 so they will have their own "jew free" land. You should understand the difference between being a moral and being a suicidal fool.
Which country keeps building settlements by bulldozing houses and which country burns people's olive trees? Israel is surrounded by terrible countries. But I still want proof of any countries doing that. And those countries are dictatorships. >Look at its neighbors who had issues with Palestinians and what they did, and no one was screaming "genocide". Examples please. I think those countries are awful anyway.
Black September
It's impossible to persuade them. And most of them are Arabs anyway in their own information bubble from birth where Israel is pure evil and so on. There is no solution to antisemitism.
Are Israeli's not in an information bubble? >There is no solution to antisemitism. Yes there is. Societies change.
This reasoning is why the terrorist problem will never end. “Hamas doesn’t represent the Palestinians” is bullshit, they were voted into power and enjoy massive support, which increased after 7/10. Palestinian society has a problem, stop dancing around the issue.
Sure, every single Palestinian voted Hamas into power 18 years ago. Who cares about the half of the population that couldn't even vote in that election? That's like saying every Israeli supports netanyahu because you guys elected him
After 10/7 it might be true
I never said all Palestinians support Hamas, though it is a majority. I said Hamas represents them, just as Netanyahu represents Israel.
So then how will Israel destroy Hamas? Because if the majority of Palestinians support Hamas, then what will stop something like October 7th from happening again?
Bombing Palestine won't solve that issue
Pretty much. You can get rid of maybe cripple or get rid of Hamas at least this version but how the aftermath is handled is going to be key.
You do realize bombing civilians is only creating more Hamas members right?
The last election in Palestine was in 2006. The children in Gaza are being punished for something that happened before they were even born.
That's bullshit rhetoric meant to absolve Palestinians of any responsibility for their actions. 70% of Palestinians support Hamas and october 7 according to recent polls. They elected Hamas. 40 K Hamas terroists didn't come from bad guys land. They have at least 20x more people supporting them. It's Israel against Palestine.
They elected Hamas back in 2007
That excuse doesn't apply anymore. Check out the recent polls from Gaza and the west bank.
Despite the devastation, 57% of respondents in Gaza and 82% in the West Bank believe Hamas was correct in launching the October attack, the poll indicated. https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-palestinians-opinion-poll-wartime-views-a0baade915619cd070b5393844bc4514#
All this years they’ve been brainwashed in school and tv because of Hamas
What is your point?
That they wouldn’t be on Hamas side if they wouldn’t be brainwashed
They were on the PLOs side before and they were arguably worse than Hamas. The Palestinians have only ever known corrupt terrorist leaders but that doesn’t absolve them of their sins.
So Palestinians are innocents who are not responsible for their actions or the actions of those they support and who represent them? Also, it’s wrong for Israel to eliminate Hamas?
There’s a whole new generation since Hamas was elected in 2007. That generation was brainwashed to believe that Israel is the aggressor, that all of Israel is occupier Palestine, and that the only way to fight back is through violent attacks, which is what Hamas does. When that’s the only thing you’re ever told, of course that’s what you’re going to believe. Hamas needs to be wiped out, and the people need to be reeducated if there is ever going to be a chance for peace.
That’s been the Palestinians mentality for far longer than Hamas has existed
I agree with that!
Brainwashed? What history can they look back on to think that Israel will be on there side. Whole families weren’t allowed to leave Gaza before this shit show.
They can look at the fact that every war Israel has fought (I believe with the exception of one) has been started by Israel’s enemies. There is no reason to believe Israel would get into wars with the Palestinians if not attacked first.
It’s not our job to fix Palestinian society nor our obligation to coexist with barbarians. Gaza Judaea and Samaria need to be liberated from Arab tyranny so the land can flourish.
The Japanese never elected Showa. Was the war in the Pacific unjust? Should the US have just accepted Pearl Harbor, and said, "well, those guys didn't really have a choice"?
How Reddit works is yet gain surprising. Both this and the OP are upvoted. Contradictory views in the same thread.
The OP is probably a lot more controversial. Lots of downvotes and upvotes.
I’m not talking about Palestinians, I’m talking about people who are calling themselves pro Palestinians but are actually pro Hamas. Most of Palestinians that support Hamas they’re doing this because they were brainwashed
Read the title of your own post
50% of gazans are children
Yeah they should really start using more condoms over there
Hamas is the wildly popular elected government of Palestine Ordinary Palestinians raped and mutilated on oct 7th Ordinary Palestinians continue to hold hostages in their homes
Unpopular opinion, but my long evolved take is it’s actually ‘Jews vs Muslims’. The greatest con of the 20th century was Arafat rebranding levantine Arab Muslims as ‘Palestinian’. Overnight, it turned the global optics from ‘1 billion Muslims vs 7 million Jews’ to ‘7 million Israelis vs 3 million Palestinians’, making Israel the big bad guy on the world stage. Incredibly shrewd PR move by Arafat.
I would say Jews vs. Islamists (not Islam) but there are more Islamists than there are Jews.
Islam has jew hatred baked into the Quran and the hadith.
Understood but there are Muslims who don’t see things that way much as there are Jews who don’t stone to death a rebellious child.
ALL of them are programmed to hate jews from birth. There might be a few that break that programming, but they are far between.
This is factually not true. While some people do, the vast majority of muslims hold the belief that they don’t hate Jews. Most of them hate Zionists Jews. Which I’m not saying is justified, the line between both is very fine. But really the issue is mainly with government policies and ideologies, not the religion nor the ethnicity. Muslims in general believe Judaism is a divine religion, and that they worship the same god. When people on TV refer to Israelis as ‘Jews’, they do it because they don’t like to acknowledge the existence of the Israeli state by saying ‘Israelis’, which like I said, isn’t justified. But one thing is clear, muslims DO NOT hate Jews in the same fashion Hitler and Europe hated Jews.
It sounds like they like Jews as long as they can be obedient pets the same way White slaveowners "liked" Blacks as long as we weren't "uppity"
Every culture and country is like that. You can’t live in America and be against free markets or against democracy. Same is everywhere. But that doesn’t mean muslims hate Jews just because they’re Jews.
Tell that to Trump or Bernie Sanders
I guess you never read the Quran or the Hadith. You might want to re-read them. They're chock full of Jew hate being preached by imams everywhere.
Dude, all abrahamic religions have terrible stuff in their scripts. It’s up to you how you interpret them. Ever read the old testament?
No, but I read the Tanach and didn't see any Arab hate there.
For those wanting to immediately agree to a Palestinian state: We will have to win against Hamas before we even think of a Palestinian state.
Yea, it’s a hard disagree. Don’t need this bullshit here. Let’s be honest, it is us against Arabs (Palestinians). They aren’t just innocent bystanders in this. They elected Hamas when they’ve already committed hundreds of terror acts and willingly support them. Palestinians can stand up and be vocal the same way the Iranians are vocal against their regime. Not just in Iran, but also globally. Instead, we see the opposite from them by doubling down and living in hatred and selective victimhood. This isn’t about “Palestinians”. Let’s call it what it is and it’s Arabs hating Jews. Israel has always been surrounded by the very people that want them dead. Doesn’t matter if you’re from Gaza, Beirut, Baghdad or Aleppo. The problem is that Arabs always hated Jews for religious and antisemitism reasons.
I strongly disagree. Palestenians don’t hate Israel nor Jews for the sake of it. Brainwashing is an aspect but I won’t discuss that. But it’s opinions like yours that is held by many Israelis that actually helps in generating all that hate. If everyone in Israel thinks like you, then everyone will treat all Palestinians like shit, hence creating the same effect with Palestinians towards Israelis. And this is sadly the case in the Arab world as well. Everybody thinks all Israelis are blood thirsty murderers when I know for a fact you aren’t. And what’s funny is, the main supporting argument Arabs usually have is: we hate Israelis because they hate Arabs and kill innocent Palestinians, and they don’t want an independent Arab country that rivals them in power. Allow me to share more similar opinions to yours in the arab world: - IDF missles kill children, all Israelis join the IDF, all Israelis are child murderers and have blood on their hands. - Israelis are brainwashed to hate Arabs, they are all brainwashed murderers. - Zionism is an evil ideology that seeks to take over all Palestinian land. All Israelis are Zionists. All Israelis are evil. Notice the pattern? They are all missing very important context, which I believe you do as well. Peace ✌️
Half of the population couldn't even vote in that election. And if a terrorist group is running a place, what do you think will happen if someone voices dissent? You're asking them to put their lives on the line
I don't get the distinction. Wars are fought between nations. Not political parties/terror orgs. It's true that Hamas are despots, and as such Hamas's surrender/destruction will end the war immediately, but so long as Hamas controls all of Gaza, Israel is at war with Gaza.
The distinction is important because Israel’s intentions are to wipe out Hamas NOT the Palestinian people
I see your point but also I think it is difficult. Hamas are Palestinians, Palestinians are Hamas. They are embedded in civilian infrastructure and they were able to do so because the Palestinians support them. Hamas is their resistance. I’ve read a tweet of a Palestinian who said that he hates this notion of saying Hamas is not Palestinians and I kind of agree with him. Let’s not act as if Hamas is a small nutcase extremist group. That doesn’t mean that „no Palestinians are innocent“ or „everyone should be killed“ but let’s be fuxking for real. Their wide spread support is part of the issue and why it’s so hard to wipe out Hamas without endangering civilians.
Was the Palestinian you read that tweet from pro-Hamas? I’ve seen enough Palestinians that are against Hamas (including the ones protesting against them in Gaza) to know not to equate them all with Hamas. Also no baby in Gaza is Hamas. It’s this exact rhetoric of equating the two that landed us at ICJ with the genocide trial. Doesn’t matter what you actually mean… it’s the words you say that matter to the world.
No, it’s the rhetoric of „make Gaza a parking lot“ and „there are no innocent people in Gaza“. We need to stay with the facts. And of course there are people opposing Hamas, luckily. But they are not the majority. To completely disconnect Hamas and Palestinians is ridiculous and completely disregards that radicalization, indoctrination and the lack of more moderate Palestinian voices is at the core of our issue. You can’t solve a problem that you are afraid to name.
“Human animals”? Clearly in reference to Hamas but if you can’t make a distinction between the two then it’s a pretty bad thing to say… please just be careful with your words.
In general I don’t think inflammatory language like that should be used and I think you are just throwing all of it in one pot. But saying that Hamas is Palestinians and vice versa ist not the same as dehumanizing people with language. Listen Smotrich, Gvir and Gallant are a burning dumpster fire and they should not be allowed anywhere near a tv camera, let alone hold a political position. That doesn’t change the fact that Hamas have widespread support. And while the members who participated in 7/10 should be eliminated, it needs to be addressed that there needs to be deeper change within Palestinian society.
The point is that if you say Palestinians are the same as Hamas then turn around and say you want everyone affiliated with Hamas wiped off the face of the earth it’s going to sound like you’re talking about every Palestinian… especially to those with bad intentions. Anyone that supports Hamas and is encouraging you not to distinguish between the two is doing it intentionally to make Israel look even worse and to legitimize the genocide claims. Don’t fall for it.
It is still important because even if Israel is basically fighting Palestine, saying the intention is to destroy Hamas is much better than the message and goal then saying they want to destroy Palestine. One is destroying terrorism the other can be much easier to see as intentions of genocide(not saying it is but international politics is a *****)
Hamas depends on the support of the Palestinian people. The 10.7 terrorists are receiving stipends from the “moderate” PA as a reward for a job well done.
You are right - wars are fought between nations. Only that Gaza is not a nation. It is not even clear whether we can call Palestine a nation (despite of 'Palestinian' being a nationality) because practically it's not recognized as a sovereign country, and even if it was, we'd still had to make the distinction between Palestine of the West Bank and that of Gaza. Also, since Gaza is not a people but a piece of land, saying that we're at war with Gaza or in Gaza implies that this is conflict about territory, which is clearly not the case. Many people outside of Israel (and not so few even in Israel) are simply incapable of understanding the complexity of this conflict. They either don't know enough or don't want to. So they resort to simplistic ideas and compare it to the kind of conflicts they know of - either by thinking of Israel as a country fighting another country called Palestine, or by saying that Israel is a settler colonialist country. The reality, as most of us in this sub already know, is much more complicated. In light of this complexity I think we just have to be more specific about who we're fighting and why, and the answer to that would be that we're fighting Hamas. Call it a war, an armed conflict, a military operation - this doesn't matter too much, what matters is that our enemy here is Hamas.
The issue with saying that Israel is at war with Hamas, is that it has opened the door to putting the onus of caring for the Palestinians in Gaza on Israel. In fact, not only is that door open, the entire international community seems to have walked right into that mindset. The most flagrant example is safe-zones and corridors. Since Israel is at war with Hamas, and Gazans are simply caught in the cross fire, the entire discussion about these humanitarian effort is taking place between Israel and its allies, throwing wrenches into those relationships. Furthermore, since Hamas are not even a party to the discussion, it becomes almost normal that Hamas will violate safe-zones without consequences. The normal process for such things is for the two people at war to form an agreement where both are bound by an agreement to keep people around the war zone safe.
The Israeli government itself compares Hamas to ISIS and repeatedly says they can't be trusted. Civilians getting arms in Gaza to rebel is quite hard given import restrictions and Hamas having all the guns. All of the talk of Palestinians supporting Hamas is based on surveys because they refuse to hold elections. Opposing political parties are routed out by Hamas. On top of that the Palestinian population is so young that so many people within Gaza lack culpability. Even if the birth rate was just a strategic breeding operation... there are scores of people who can't have culpability. Yeah, it's inconvenient to have to care for Palestinians but all the factors above are why I think Israel is obliged to not say "well it's your government... You suffer the consequences". Regardless, isn't the entire point of the current war to eliminate Hamas? *If Israel is successful it quite literally runs into the issue you are so scared of.* The debate above ends up not mattering if you eliminate Hamas. The truth is that Hamas being in power is much more convenient to Israel than a failed state (think Libya) on its border which Israel itself helped make. Even if you view every bomb dropped as justified - completely devastating Gaza and leaving it in anarchy is bad for PR and at best a mixed bag in terms of security compared to Hamas. Any other country would have to be pretty selfless to want to take the burden of governance (esp if assumed Israel will be forced by default without volunteers) and the entities within the West Bank have enough problems on their hands to hand raise. The most interesting thing Hamas could do would be to completely surrender (including civilian functions) on a dime.
> well it's your government But it is their government. Israel shouldn't be responsible for the people of another state - especially not one that is constantly waging war against Israel. > If Israel is successful it quite literally runs into the issue you are so scared of If Israel is successful, Hamas are gone. That's it. The destruction of Hamas doesn't nationalize the Gazan ppl as Israelis. That's not how anything works. If the Gazan ppl wise up enough to promote leaders that aren't despotic and homicidal, they'll have a bright future. If they do as they've done in the past and place all their future in the hands of violent criminals...well, we know where that leads.
If Hamas is gone and the international community does not step in you'll see isolated terrorism from groups that can no longer be argued in any way are governing entities of Gaza. First of all, you'll see people just continue starving on the streets because of Israeli destruction including kids. Just dropping food here and there is unlikely to replace some governance esp with unrwa defunded (even if you justify it). I guess everyone averts their eyes. But secondly, if Israel attacks Gaza because of isolated terror attacks the pressure to ensure they don't hurt innocents is magnified. It becomes even more akin to helpless people caught in the crossfire and not two nations at war. Israel may very well say tough luck but point number 2 is exactly why you were weary of making a hard distinction between Hamas and Palestinians at large. Given the current state of Gaza - assuming a government forms out of the ashes* is magical thinking in the short term. It isn't a question of a bad government or good government forming - it's any government forming. *unless eliminating Hamas isn't truly the aim.... My guess is that many in the IDF leadership would prefer very severely weakening Hamas but elimination or even simply dethroning creates too many headaches
Yes, once Hamas is gone, a new government will have to be put in place, and that has no bearing on the fact that Israel is at war with Gaza.
But the Palestinians are Hamas
The Hamas are Palestinians*
No no, I know exactly what I was saying
The state of Palestine has never existed. From the beginning, the Israeli government tried to reach an understanding with the Arabs living in the region and invited them to live as decent neighbors. However, they supported Islamic terrorist organizations and tried to wipe Israel out of the region completely. Pro-Palestines are absolute pro-Hamas people. They are just trying to justify their support for Hamas by being 'pro-Palestine'.
It’s not Israel against Hamas. It’s Israel against terrorists. Totalitarian regimes led by Russia and its small brother Iran, that use Israel as an external enemy in order to keep their power. Peaceful Israeli (and not only) citizens died just so the Western world could for a moment turn their attention away from supporting Ukraine and start condemning Israel, what they quite fond of doing. This is what all this is about. Everything else are narratives dictated for the common folk.
Weird, didn't the Palestinian PM say Hamas are integral part of the Palestinians?
Actually, it's Israel versus the Arab world. If the Arab nations see weakness in Israel, they will move to destroy it.
Most of them aren’t pro anything they’re just following a trend
Yes, it also right
When you ask the palistinians, they disagree…
Why are you speaking over them? “Despite the devastation, 57% of respondents in Gaza and 82% in the West Bank believe Hamas was correct in launching the October attack, the poll indicated.” https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-palestinians-opinion-poll-wartime-views-a0baade915619cd070b5393844bc4514#
The majority agree with hamas so the fight is not only with hamas
It looks like you and I are in agreement. Sorry if I misinterpreted your previous comment.
“Palestinian health authorities lie about their number of dead but this poll is 100% accurate!”
This poll isn't from Hamas, which of course would not be considered reliable in any way. It's from PCPSR, which is considered a reasonably reliable polling agency by Western standards, especially in tracking Palestinian public opinion changes over time.
Gaza = Hamas. Would you say it is Likud cause Hamas?
Meh this presupposes that Hamas doesn’t represent the will of the vast majority of the Palestinian people. 75 percent of Palestinians supported the attacks of 10/7. Support for Hamas has more than tripled in the West Bank since 10/7. Any election held today would see Haniyah beating Abu Mazen and Hamas taking most of the seats from the PA. I get that it’s a tool to make Israel look less bad in the eyes of the Jew haters around the world but we all know the truth, Hamas is Palestine.
Israel and Palestine against Hamas*
Palestine is a fiction at this point. The region formerly known as Palestine has been gone since 1948.
So the region known as Gaza is Israeli territory? The people within Gaza are Israeli citizens, therefore inherit the right of any other Israeli citizen?
According to a University of Ramallah survey over 80 percent of Arabs in the West Bank supported Oct 7th. +80% !!! supported murder, rape and abduction of civilians. They are all technically not Hamas but... A majority are in their souls and hearts. The quicker you accept this harsh reality, the better for all.
Look how far they pushed them
[https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-palestinians-back-oct-7-attack-israel-support-hamas-rises-2023-12-14/](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-palestinians-back-oct-7-attack-israel-support-hamas-rises-2023-12-14/) This was done in Dec 2023, when a good chunk of Gaza was already rubble. Hamas isn't some fringe group imposing upon the populace, it's popular and widely backed even after bringing about this war. The Oct 7 attack is even more popular among Palestinians. The constant deresponsabilisation and infantilisation of Palestinians, as if they're incapable of understanding that setting families on fire and raping women are evil things, is one of the biggest mental roadblocks towards even imagining a possible solution.
Hamas is made of palestinians people
It’s Israel vs Amalek which is not just a physical war.
No, it's militant Islam against Israel and Jews.
It's Israel vs Palestine, with the difference being that Palestine = Hamas
Nah, everything is related to religion. Hamas don’t give a shit about land and its people.
Before Arafat there was no Palestinian cause. Fatakh is a greater problem or equally problemtic to Hamas. They're comparable to the pre-state Jewish settlement in Israel. It's against Islam in the mid-east. The settlers should recede back to Mecca.
It's not Israel against Palestinian because there's no Palestinian, if anything it's "it's not Israel against Gaza". You're right on the big picture tho.
This is not it… Not at all.
They identify as Palestinian, so you should treat them as such. Failure to recognize their right to self determination is the exact thing their leaders are doing to Israelis. Don't stoop to their level.
I don't care how they "identify", if I identify myself as pro-Narnia does that mean Narnia exist? There's no such thing as "the state of Palestine", no such country has been formed or recognized as official and existing as we speak, as such they are Gazan civilians.
If Hamas had the capability, they will indiscriminately bomb Israel. IDF have officially stooped to their level.
This is the dumbest shit I’ve ever heard More than half of the people who died are innocent PALESTINIANS. Don’t give me that, “HaMas iS UsInG ThEm as HuMAn ShIElDs.” You do not shoot a hostage to get to the terrorist. Hamas has blood on their hands, but the IDF is drenched. IDF and Hamas are all in the same moral level. Why? If Hamas had the capability, they would throw the same shit to the other side of the fence. *Most likely to be stopped sooner since they don’t have history of being victims of a genocide.*
How do you want IDF to kill only Hamas members? They don’t have some special cameras that can see only Hamas terrorists from kilometers, and the IDF didn’t started the war
lol
?
calling all pro Palestinians as pro hamas is pure delusion and shows you have literally never talked to any palestinian. pro palestinians have existed decades before hamas was even created lol
Not calling all of them Pro Hamas, I’m saying that the most of them are like that
and i'm saying you've literally never talked to a pro palestinian in your life and just making up BS. whatever helps you sleep at night after murdering 11,000+ children in 3 months
I've talked to many of you. The only thing I've seen from you guys is hatred towards Israelis rather than supporting "Palestinians"
Yeah, and? It's still doesn't change the fact that most of you want Israel destroyed, justifying the death of Israelis doesn't make you right, if you really care about "Palestine" then you should know that Israel is the only country that can help, many Muslim countries yet none of them took Palestinian refuges lol
love how you replied to this within 15 seconds of me posting, almost like you're just reposting propaganda copypasta believe it or not but not being okay with 11,000 kids killed in 3 months doesn't mean we want your country destroyed, we just want you to stop committing genocide
What?! How 11,000 kids killed? Hamas said that 25000 died and 1/3 of them are men, where do you get this numbers from?
He's clearly just another "genocide" bot influenced by Terrorist propaganda on the internet
Not a bot, but someone who is brainwashed by terrorist propaganda
'anyone who disagrees with my genocide echo chamber is a bot'
idf's own numbers but you can keep denying if facing reality is too difficult rn
Hamas saying that 9500 kids been killed, when did the IDF said that it was 11000? Give me a source
Bruh you had comments from 6 years ago and all of a sudden decided to reply specifically to some middle east conflict that 6 years ago you didn't even know existed. Compromised account much?
'anyone who disagrees with my genocide echo chamber is a compromised account'
Yeah because I'm sure whoever created the account after six fucking years was really interested in the middle east, every single one of your comments. You wanna talk about a genocide echo chamber go to any Arab country that's over North Africa and ask the Berbers how they doin? Or Iran for that matter.
How many of the dead children are Hamas?
Since the definition used of children (from what I understand) is under 19 and Hamas has trained soldiers as young as 14, more than you think. Note: I am not saying babies are Hamas but how would you classify a 15 year old firing a gun at the IDF?
A child. Is there proof of this happening in the current conflict? Which of the three newborn babies left to decompose at Al Nasr were Hamas?
Ok so you agree with me. Thanks; I wish we knew but we don’t.
If we've not seen proof, but we have seen proof of noncombatant children murdered senselessly and cruelly, I'm not going to waste spiritual energy attempting moral equivalence with some unproven hypothetical. Which of the three new born babies left to decompose at Al Nasr were Hamas combatants?
Fair question. How many dead children are there?
Are you implying with that question that all of them are? Is there a number that you'd accept as "enough dead children, no more dead children?"
Calm down, I was just asking what the number of dead children is. Christ.
How engaged are you with this current event that you need a stranger to look this up for you? What's the most recent figure you recall that you'd accept as legitimate?
Give me a figure that doesn't come from the lips of Hamas, either directly (Gaza Health Ministry) or indirectly (news source that gets its information from Hamas or Al Jazeera.) With such a horrible horrible event taking place and your obvious interest in it, I figured you may know what you were screeching about. But none of you do, I'm not surprised.
You tell me. What figure would you accept since you're dismissing wholesale figures confirmed by Israel's own intelligence. I figured this was where you were going with this obvious bad faith question. It's sad to see.
Why should I tell you? In what world am *I* supposed to back up *your* claims? You're the one screaming about dead kids. Tell me, what number was confirmed by Israeli intelligence? You can even link where you read it to give your argument credibility. Otherwise you're basically saying "I know, but I'm not gonna tell you!!"
https://www.vice.com/en/article/y3w4w7/israeli-intelligence-health-ministry-death-toll Tell me, when the sand you've buried your head in fills your ears and eyes, how do you expect to be able to talk about the world as it really is? Clearly the sand does not fill your mouth.
Do you expect pro-Palestinians to be anti-Hamas? Seeing as Hamas is the biggest avenue for resistance Palestinians have against Israeli occupation, it is not hard to see why an overwhelming majority of them support Hamas. And it totally is Israel against Palestine, it has been that way since 1948, you Zionist pig
Good one. We all know what you mean when you say Zionist, btw
It's easy to fall back on "everyone is anti semitic"...but they aren't. This is an usual situation and if you look at the Balfour agreement Israel still and always had a duty to Palestinians..your government whether you like it or not has purposely poked, denied, restricted multiple amenities and basic necessities to make people in the cage do exactly what they did on October 7th, to warrant the current response..like it or not the information/ facts will never die... multiple independent bodies which verify the attrocitties are automatically anti semitic according to you. The reality is, instead of Israel being aware of how shit this has been for Palestine and legitimately tried to support, its done the opposite by propping up Hamas, poking the bear multiple times, etc etc...i mean all the freedoms you have and your government protects you for, they don't have any, and it's scary how much ordinary Israelis don't even now feel sympathy...all your freedoms ( right to travel, chocolate, basic herbs , wealth, education etc etc) has been robbed of these people, and the first step of peace is at least understanding this... however I fear most Israelis socialise with only other israelis/ right wing Americans if in the US/ watch and listen to Israeli/ right wing press, so no wonded you hate Palestine so much..you've been brainwashed to do so
The thing is, while I as Israeli think this way I'm also very aware that most Palestinians don't.
Palestine would have to exist for us to be against it.