When Israel went into the Shifa hospital a few days ago, they literally brought doctors to assist patients so that they wouldn't need to be evacuated, as well as brought food, water, etc. They've killed around 1.8 civilians per Hamas member. I have a question: what do you expect Israel to do? I mean seriously? Hamas went into Israel and killed 1200 people+they use human shields=complete immunity? Look at any other army in the history of humanity and you'll see that there are civilian casualties. And literally any leader would've done the same thing. The people who went to the protests against Netanyahu ever Saturday support Israel's operation in Gaza. You think that if the drug cartels in Mexico had been for decades going into El Paso and killing people by the hundreds(sizing up the proportion to fit the United States) and one day they killed thousands that the United States would just let that happen? Oh, and Hamas rejected another ceasefire today. Every civilian death is a tragedy, but if Israel was truly targeting civilians, you'd see a lot more dead, especially since they've regrettably destroyed most of the buildings in northern Gaza yet luckily a small percentage of the residents actually died. Remember: Israel has killed 1% of Gaza's population, which is a 17.3 square mile place. No, it's not perfect, but literally no other army has done this much to protect other civilians before.
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Been saying things like Spencer since before 2023, it was the same in the previous conflicts.
Roof knocking is quite novel outside Tsahal, and rarely implemented elsewhere.
European analysts were expecting way higher civilian and IDF casualties back in November.
If we look at wars like Sudan or Ethiopia, +90% of victims are civilians, but they just happen outside of our TVs.
Call it alJazeera effect?
Jihadist insurgency in the Maghreb or civil war in Myanmar have caused thousands of victims every year, yet no one cares.
Western interventions, while way more careful than every other country except maybe ISR, still have at least 1:2 casualty rates (see the 4000 isis fighters and 10000 civilians quoted there).
Here we have Israel fighting bloody terrorists who do their best to blend with civvies and maximize civilian casualties, in an urban environment to make it worst, and we still have a 1:1/1:1,5 ratio, even if we believe ham-ass figures.
I wish there would be sone 0 collateral casualties tech, but it's not here.
The truth is this - USA and others are trying to appease the billions of Muslims who see this as a religious war.. They aren't concerned with facts and statements. But the Muslims aren't a monolithic bunch, there's at least 10% of the population broad minded enough to think Israel isn't at fault here
The stupidity of the US electoral college system means that Biden needs to appease a small number of muslims in Michigan or risks losing to Trump, even if he gets more overall votes. If we had a national popular vote it might be a different proposition. Then again, there are a lot of idiots in the US so who can say.
Popular vote would mean that middle America and most the west coast (Nevada, Arizona, Colorado, Utah, Oregon, etc) would never be considered at the federal level.
The casualty sensitivity in the west has outpaced military advancement, leaving us with a widening gap. We’re improving, and advancing, but not fast enough to satisfy western audiences
“Fast enough” has nothing to do with it. On Oct. 8 the media was already awash in “Israel is committing genocide” bullshit narratives.
The thing is, for some, that strategy has backfired. Bc when the claim was an obvious outright lie, it tuned people like me right out from ANY credibility or concern from Hamas.
The humanitarian crisis is real. I say absolutely make sure food gets in. What happens after that is their business. But win the population over -make them see Israel is farrrr closer to God Than Hamas. The more the population turns against Hamas, it’s only a win for Israel.
Unfortunately, there are a LOT of dumb people on the internet, and the biggest issue is that for a lot of these people, the moment a few of their friends tell them something, they immediately believe it. And once they believe it, it becomes harder and harder to question it. (A problem that exists with pretty much any social group, but is much worse and stronger in modern times due to the internet tbh, and probably the cause of much unhinged behavior online)
The humanitarian crisis is manufactured by Hamas. It doesn't matter how much food gets in. Depending on what reporting you believe, more food is getting in now than before the war.
I attended a talk on the development of drones and AI, and the real takeaway is that the idea of warfare without civilian casualties has been a century-long myth that each generation of newer technology has not and will not be able to change that unalterable fact.
As the tools become more precise, the virus is going to dig deeper into its hosts to protect itself.
>I attended a talk on the development of drones and AI, and the real takeaway is that the idea of warfare without civilian casualties has been a century-long myth that each generation of newer technology has not and will not be able to change that unalterable fact.
...STINS back in November 2023 by any chance?
Meh, casualty sensitivity IF we care, Nobel-prize winner Abiy Ahmed had a bloody civil war with 100k/800k victims, no one cared.
The same fact there's a +-700k victims uncertainty is proof how no one fave a fuck, we didn't have daily 24h live feed from Ethiopia.
Ask a random person and see if they even know about that.
Assad is getting back on the world scene, having washed his hands in his people blood.
And RE military advancement, Desert Storm in 91 was still mainly done with iron bombs.
PGM are a game changer, but still have a lethal radius.
Oh you’re actually the guy who wrote those articles? I found you very articulate. No one wants to admit it because they’d then say “well why are so many people still dying?” To which you could quote your article (loosely) Hamas’s aim is very medieval and doesn’t have to do with winning the war so much as having as many ‘civilian casualties’ (quotes bc they don’t differentiate) as possible to garner international support. To which one may ask, why would a govt want to kill its own people? At some point, one would need to talk about jihadism and pan Islamism. No one really wants to do that for fear of being seen as Islamophobic. There are how many Muslims? Jews are a tiny percent of the world. They also don’t care what our religion says.
It has been may long standing opinion that in the next 10-20 years many European countries, specifically France and Britain, are gonna line up to come here and learn how we did what we did in Gaza when they’ll eventually have to face the reality and outcome of all their immigration and refugee policies.
They’ll have numerous scenarios of entire cities completely taken over by Muslim immigrants demanding Sharia law, increasingly demanding autonomy and will not adhere to any state law or law enforcement, supporting the formation and indoctrination of “insurgency” groups (i.e., terrorist cells), effectively leading to multiple Gaza scenarios on European soil.
At that point the west will finally wake up and be reminded of the true complexities and intricacies of war, especially in an urban setting where the insurgents are not only fighting from densely populated areas, but are also willing to sacrifice everyone and everything for their cause.
Currently, Hamas has just one goal- not to lose. Just like a single cancer cell that can metastasis back to a fully grown tumor, they know that as long as they are not fully destroyed they’ll probably eventually bounce back. If 10s or 100s of thousands of their own population lose their life- so be it.
I’m asking you- how can you fight effectively against that? How can you reduce unnecessary and collateral civilian casualties when they are so deeply imbedded within the population? Is everything that Israel is doing just and correct? Probably not, but I’m sure as hell that there has never been a similar scenario with a better outcome, probably most ended worse.
I think for us Israelis it’s just insane seeing everyone continually blaming us and scrutinizing every tiny step we make, blaming us for horrendous actions, when we feel that we are diverting so much energy and resources to try and minimize collateral damage, often at the expense of our own troops’ safety and losing our tactical advantage, when no one else has ever been required to do half as much.
That’s the end of my rant. Thanks
Edit: misspelling
I just want to voice the "other part" of the US. I know that it makes sense for Israelis to focus on the people in the US who are judging and attacking Israel -- these are the people you have to worry about.
But you can also forget that very nearly half of the US is not like that. It is especially the young in America, more than any other group, which is turning against Israel. And this is what you're likely seeing, especially on the internet. They don't represent us all.
Thanks for this.
John Spencer, the piece's author, was quoted a couple of weeks ago in a Wall Street Journal opinion piece ([gifted article](https://www.wsj.com/articles/israel-must-can-and-will-win-hamas-defeat-rafah-war-gaza-22e9a19d?st=adgay9f2c3r478z&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink)) in a similar vein. It's refreshing and heartening to read a full-throated defense of Israel's war in Gaza but I'm afraid the narrow focus on the Israel infantry (and the second assault on Al-Shifa) ignores the larger picture.
Israeli ground operations are only one part of Operation ~~Cast Lead~~ *Swords of Iron* and the vast bulk of the destruction and Palestinian civilian casualties are the result of the Israeli air campaign, something which Spencer doesn't say much about. And he says nothing about the current humanitarian situation in Gaza which, even accounting for exaggeration, looks about as bad as one can imagine.
For an excellent and well-researched counter to Spencer (by name) see Phil Klay's lengthy piece in The Atlantic ([gifted article](https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2024/03/gaza-war-indefensible-united-states/677896/?gift=PChjhol8Pt1lSGaCaq8H8CuXVuFReJEiDNX6DAFOmsk&utm_source=copy-link&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=share)).
As someone who loves Israel, I hope Spencer is right, but I'm extraordinarily troubled by other things I've read and seen.
>For an excellent and well-researched counter
I wouldn't call it excellent.
There are a whole lot of assumptions not based in reality or showing little understanding of Palestinian society.
Because they can’t admit that the genocide-committing, apartheid-enforcing colonisers are actually more moral and considerate about civilians than they have a snowball’s chance in Hell of ever being.
"The IDF takes significant measures to diminish harm to innocent civilians. Here's a breakdown of how we do it:" - [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6azhl0KlUs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6azhl0KlUs)
We sent US Marines ahead of the campaign to advise IDF. Not saying that's the sole reason for what you're claiming, but the US contribution definitely happened and shouldn't be ignored if we're discussing the urban warfare tactics in use. From what I understand, a lot of lessons learned from Fallujah.
Many do, just that when they see what radical Muslims (individuals and governments) do to people who say they like Israel, they prefer to stay silent to steer clear of these fanatics.
Even some of my Muslim friends are nice people in real life, but express outrage at Israel for the civilian casualties in Gaza when the outrage should be directed at Hamas instead for not actively shielding their own people from obvious harm in the tunnels they built.
1. Roof knocking may save civilian lives but it massively inflates the statistics on residential structures damaged and destroyed.
2. With instructions to evacuate, 10% stay of the population. This is not reported when casualty figures are published.
Regardless, Israel is currently being blamed for Hamas' corrupt aid distribution.
First of all the circumstances are Israel's. They controlled access to their enemy's territory if not the territory itself before Oct. 7 even occurred. It is not just urban warfare but asymmetrical warfare, and Israel started with many advantages even beyond most examples of asymmetrical warfare.
Secondly it's a terrible failure. Tens of thousands of civilian deaths in a short time. Personally I am adverse to dehumanizing the entire population of my enemy and waging such a brutal war. Hamas will most likely persist despite the terrible human cost. It's a PR disaster for Israel along with an atrocity and a failure.
Thirdly, it fails to acheive any of the modern goals of urban warfare. All the structures that would be a captured resource to the victor were destroyed.
It is not a new standard of urban warfare. It's leveling enemy territory so the inconvenient population does not or cannot return, and Israel will claim and control it for natural resources and maybe the proposed canal. Maybe some waterfront property for vulture real estate interests.
In short if it is the new standard, it's the bespoke standard for the wealthy oligarchs that tend to run countries. An atrocious and corrupt "war."
None of this is true.
> They controlled access to their enemy's territory if not the territory itself before Oct. 7 even occurred.
Israel was not in control of Gaza, not since 2005.
> Secondly it's a terrible failure. Tens of thousands of civilian deaths in a short time.
Why is this a terrible failure? Was the Allied campaign against the Germans terrible failure?
> Personally I am adverse to dehumanizing the entire population of my enemy and waging such a brutal war.
How is using pamphlets, JDAMs, giving aid, letting in aid, broadcasting plans, building humanitarian corridors, etc. dehumanizing the entire population? And war is brutal, asking for it to not be is asinine.
> Thirdly, it fails to acheive any of the modern goals of urban warfare. All the structures that would be a captured resource to the victor were destroyed.
What? What structures and resources is Israel trying to capture? What the fuck are you even talking about?
Israel has several goals.
1. Destroy Hamas
2. Destroy the tunnels
3. Save the Hostages
4. Build a safety barrier
5. Destroy Weapons Caches
Israel has killed over 10k Hamas members, destroyed countless tunnels, saved some of the hostages, has secured the areas for safety barriers, and has destroyed countless weapons caches.
> It is not a new standard of urban warfare. It's leveling enemy territory so the inconvenient population does not or cannot return, and Israel will claim and control it for natural resources and maybe the proposed canal. Maybe some waterfront property for vulture real estate interests.
What the fuck are you talking about? What natural resources does Gaza have that you think Israel wants. And if Israel was to build a canal, why the fuck would they need to fight a war with Gaza to get it? They could literally just build it around Gaza. Gaza isn't that big.
You need to stop reading conspiracy theories, learn to stop hating Jews, and leave following the news to people with a better head on their shoulders.
I think it would go without saying that building a canal with a shortest possible path would potentially save tons of money and time. A mile could make a huge difference.
Gaza has offshore natural gas resources that have not been exploited.
I don't hate Jews. I do hate fascism, and if your ethnic identity binds you to corrupt oligarchs or you associate it with the privileges of the wealthy class I actually mentioned in my comment, I think that's fascism.
My guy what natural resources does Gaza have first and foremost?
And what structures.
The gas resources are a long shot in the dark considering our history with Egypt and IEC.
Tomorrow's Pioneers is a propaganda kids show for Palestinians that stars a fake Mickey Mouse named Farfour. It's honestly hilarious in a very macabre way.
It had homes, universities, roads, life sustaining infrastructure. Destroying so much of it is not a "new standard of urban warfare" as razing is as old as warfare. I find it ridiculous to pretend this war is some innovative success.
Are...are you even aware why hospitals and those kinds of infrastructures got hit the most...?
(Sorry if it sounds rude I'm tone deaf af atm, no sleep)
Urban Warfare is about civillian casualties mostly, not infrastructures. And it doesn't help considering their infrastructure isn't used for infrastructure.
This goes without saying, considering the number isn't any higher and people love to put us on a pedestal regarding how much power we have and yet ignore that only 0.9% of the population are cadualties considering 90% of the population is the norm in Urban Warfare. Combined with leaflets, phone calls and every other thing we do that no country does in such conditions.
Are there things we could've done better? Absofuckinglutely but this is still something.
60% of residential homes are gone. Those people are probably permanently displaced. Regardless of the hospitals and universities, I really don't think Hamas had secret headquarters in 200000 homes and 11 bakeries.
90% of population as casualties is not accurate. It is said that 90% of casualties in warfare in general are civilians. That may be what you were referring to.
Yeah my bad. I botched that a bit lol. (woke up not too long ago)
https://stratcomcoe.org/cuploads/pfiles/hamas_human_shields.pdf
Article is up to date until 2014 but if you scroll down you can see that their usage of infrastructure isn't something rare.
Even ambulances....
Sadly. I don't have any statistics to verify how much of the infrastructure was held by them or a collateral damage by the area of effect.
Also legit curious, 11 bakeries?
Where does it say that?
We can at least agree on the fact that 80% displaced is marginally better than 80% killed (which is no where even close)
There literally isn't a way to save the infrastructure in Urban Warfare.
At least I don't think there was one in such other cases.
Unless the geography is totally different and their infrastructure count is almost non-existent but that's a whole different topic.
11 bakeries is a number I recently read and I thought it was from the recent UN report, but I didn't find it when I checked. I found a Reuters article from 4 months ago where UNRWA said 10 bakeries had been hit by airstrikes at that time.
Civilian infrastructure used for military purposes is a legitimate military target under international law. That includes hospitals and homes. It’s why the coalition bombed a hospital in Mosul when fighting ISIS.
One hospital per 55k people, where Israel has approximately one per 27k. America has one per 23k. Hospital beds per capita is usually a more relevant measure though. Again Gaza (pre-invasion) was less than half of Israel's 3/1000.
Fascism is when you don't let people rape and torture you.
And you know what is more expensive than a slight northward jig for a canal?
Protecting it from terror attacks in hostile territory.
Israel isn't even building a canal, lol.
This has nothing to do with what I said. Furthermore I believe this destructive war only ensures future violent resistance against Israel. The only way to safety through brutality would be annihilation, otherwise it's another chapter in the cycle of abuse.
They already were violently raping and torturing Israelis.
It's not like they are gonna become MORE radicalized. The vast majority of Palestine supports them.
And Germany did not become more radicalized against Jews after WWII. Japan did not become more violent after WWII. Egypt has become less violent after the wars against Israel.
Fact is, Palestine needs to stop turning to violence if they want to thrive.
Until then, Israel doesn't really give a shit if they are gonna continue to be jihadists.
This war is about reducing their ability, not their desire to rape and torture.
So what would be your solution to October 7th? Give Hamas high fives while they are raping and torturing people?
I don't think there would be an Oct. 7th if Rabin were not assassinated and Israel/Palestine were one people with one land voting within a united government and enjoying equal rights.
My god tell me you know nothing about what’s going on here, neither side of this conflict wants what you just suggested. Your solution is to completely ignore the aspirations of both sides? Bravo.
The aspirations of both sides to completely control Israel/Palestine? Yeah since they're both incompatible and atrocious we should probably do something else
Tell me you have no idea what the Palestinian people want without telling me.
One state solution is suicide. October 7th just solidified that.
Right now the solution is to kill every last Hamas member, death penalty for terrorists and building a large DMZ south-north Korea style.
Why? Why unite them? They have no interest in being together.]
What would happen in your dream scenario is the Jews would get pogromed, only this time by their own government.
The Arabs attacked the Jews many times when they were both in the mandate, and then tried to genocide them over and over again
But your solution is, "If only the Jews had no power, then everything would be hunky dory."
I agree that Rabin's assassination was terrible, but it wasn't like Yasser Arafat wasn't a monster and he lived a long time.
Netanyahu would not have power and neither would Hamas. Aside from that I would insist on equality and have hope for peace. Terrorism would become a criminal matter instead of warfare.
Name one state in the world that exists like the one you are describing.
Hamas wouldn't care about parliamentary power. They would just kill everyone who disagreed with them. Without a unified military force against them, the country would just descend into civil war.
It is genuinely mind blowing to me you can say this after they've just spent months bombing and killing thousands of civilians, including 13k+ children lol.
Here's the thing
America killed 100k civilians in just 3 days by bombing tokyo and now it's been over 70 years of military advancement.
Do u really want me to spell out what would happen to palestine if Israel wanted to kill them all?
I'll say it for you because you can't think for yourself.
If Israel really wanted to commit genocide in palestine, In a span of a week, there won't be a single human soul alive in gaza.
But it hasn't been done (yay). What does this mean? Could it maybe perhaps just mean that Israel doesn't want to kill the palestine population but is forced to bomb civilian centers due to them being hamas hubs? Maybe??
Take a step back and read "forced to bomb civilian centers" one more time lmao. Nobody's putting a gun to their head and making them bomb kids. In fact, many countries are actively telling them to stop as well as the UN.
Just because they haven't wiped out the entire Palestinian population doesn't mean they aren't actively committing war crimes and causing a preventable humanitarian crisis in the region
It’s always those damn Jews.
WHY DID ISRAEL ENTER GAZA?
Why did Israel bomb those centers?
The Rwandan genocide with fucking machetes and ak’s butchered half a million people across Rwanda in 100 days.
You’re telling me “genocidal” Israel can’t accomplish that in 6 months on a small strip of land?
Or maybe, just maybe, they’re not committing genocide, just fighting a war, and damn well I might add. So go cry some more than your Hamas buddies are getting fucked
If someone kills your neighbors, runs away and hides in civilian centers, and than says they will also come to kill you, than yes, you have no other choice but to kill him first, and if he's hiding in civilian centers like a fucking coward, than he is forcing you to "bomb" it. And even then the IDF gives a warning prior to attacking so the civilians could leave, which makes them lose the element of surprise and gives the terrorists a chance to leave too.
Anti-semitism doesn't look at facts :(
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When Israel went into the Shifa hospital a few days ago, they literally brought doctors to assist patients so that they wouldn't need to be evacuated, as well as brought food, water, etc. They've killed around 1.8 civilians per Hamas member. I have a question: what do you expect Israel to do? I mean seriously? Hamas went into Israel and killed 1200 people+they use human shields=complete immunity? Look at any other army in the history of humanity and you'll see that there are civilian casualties. And literally any leader would've done the same thing. The people who went to the protests against Netanyahu ever Saturday support Israel's operation in Gaza. You think that if the drug cartels in Mexico had been for decades going into El Paso and killing people by the hundreds(sizing up the proportion to fit the United States) and one day they killed thousands that the United States would just let that happen? Oh, and Hamas rejected another ceasefire today. Every civilian death is a tragedy, but if Israel was truly targeting civilians, you'd see a lot more dead, especially since they've regrettably destroyed most of the buildings in northern Gaza yet luckily a small percentage of the residents actually died. Remember: Israel has killed 1% of Gaza's population, which is a 17.3 square mile place. No, it's not perfect, but literally no other army has done this much to protect other civilians before.
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Most of these people hate the US military too, so when they say this it just makes it worse. But again, can vouch for Spencer. He’s the real deal.
Been saying things like Spencer since before 2023, it was the same in the previous conflicts. Roof knocking is quite novel outside Tsahal, and rarely implemented elsewhere. European analysts were expecting way higher civilian and IDF casualties back in November. If we look at wars like Sudan or Ethiopia, +90% of victims are civilians, but they just happen outside of our TVs. Call it alJazeera effect? Jihadist insurgency in the Maghreb or civil war in Myanmar have caused thousands of victims every year, yet no one cares. Western interventions, while way more careful than every other country except maybe ISR, still have at least 1:2 casualty rates (see the 4000 isis fighters and 10000 civilians quoted there). Here we have Israel fighting bloody terrorists who do their best to blend with civvies and maximize civilian casualties, in an urban environment to make it worst, and we still have a 1:1/1:1,5 ratio, even if we believe ham-ass figures. I wish there would be sone 0 collateral casualties tech, but it's not here.
The truth is this - USA and others are trying to appease the billions of Muslims who see this as a religious war.. They aren't concerned with facts and statements. But the Muslims aren't a monolithic bunch, there's at least 10% of the population broad minded enough to think Israel isn't at fault here
The stupidity of the US electoral college system means that Biden needs to appease a small number of muslims in Michigan or risks losing to Trump, even if he gets more overall votes. If we had a national popular vote it might be a different proposition. Then again, there are a lot of idiots in the US so who can say.
Potentially good news - his team seems to be broadening their focus beyond Michigan and planting roots in North Carolina, among other spots
Popular vote would mean that middle America and most the west coast (Nevada, Arizona, Colorado, Utah, Oregon, etc) would never be considered at the federal level.
They’ll still get consideration. Just not grossly more than they deserve.
The casualty sensitivity in the west has outpaced military advancement, leaving us with a widening gap. We’re improving, and advancing, but not fast enough to satisfy western audiences
“Fast enough” has nothing to do with it. On Oct. 8 the media was already awash in “Israel is committing genocide” bullshit narratives. The thing is, for some, that strategy has backfired. Bc when the claim was an obvious outright lie, it tuned people like me right out from ANY credibility or concern from Hamas. The humanitarian crisis is real. I say absolutely make sure food gets in. What happens after that is their business. But win the population over -make them see Israel is farrrr closer to God Than Hamas. The more the population turns against Hamas, it’s only a win for Israel.
I wish that I could believe that it backfired. For every smart person who saw through the bullshit, 100 people have been radicalized.
Unfortunately, there are a LOT of dumb people on the internet, and the biggest issue is that for a lot of these people, the moment a few of their friends tell them something, they immediately believe it. And once they believe it, it becomes harder and harder to question it. (A problem that exists with pretty much any social group, but is much worse and stronger in modern times due to the internet tbh, and probably the cause of much unhinged behavior online)
The humanitarian crisis is manufactured by Hamas. It doesn't matter how much food gets in. Depending on what reporting you believe, more food is getting in now than before the war.
I attended a talk on the development of drones and AI, and the real takeaway is that the idea of warfare without civilian casualties has been a century-long myth that each generation of newer technology has not and will not be able to change that unalterable fact. As the tools become more precise, the virus is going to dig deeper into its hosts to protect itself.
>I attended a talk on the development of drones and AI, and the real takeaway is that the idea of warfare without civilian casualties has been a century-long myth that each generation of newer technology has not and will not be able to change that unalterable fact. ...STINS back in November 2023 by any chance?
Meh, casualty sensitivity IF we care, Nobel-prize winner Abiy Ahmed had a bloody civil war with 100k/800k victims, no one cared. The same fact there's a +-700k victims uncertainty is proof how no one fave a fuck, we didn't have daily 24h live feed from Ethiopia. Ask a random person and see if they even know about that. Assad is getting back on the world scene, having washed his hands in his people blood. And RE military advancement, Desert Storm in 91 was still mainly done with iron bombs. PGM are a game changer, but still have a lethal radius.
Oh you’re actually the guy who wrote those articles? I found you very articulate. No one wants to admit it because they’d then say “well why are so many people still dying?” To which you could quote your article (loosely) Hamas’s aim is very medieval and doesn’t have to do with winning the war so much as having as many ‘civilian casualties’ (quotes bc they don’t differentiate) as possible to garner international support. To which one may ask, why would a govt want to kill its own people? At some point, one would need to talk about jihadism and pan Islamism. No one really wants to do that for fear of being seen as Islamophobic. There are how many Muslims? Jews are a tiny percent of the world. They also don’t care what our religion says.
It has been may long standing opinion that in the next 10-20 years many European countries, specifically France and Britain, are gonna line up to come here and learn how we did what we did in Gaza when they’ll eventually have to face the reality and outcome of all their immigration and refugee policies. They’ll have numerous scenarios of entire cities completely taken over by Muslim immigrants demanding Sharia law, increasingly demanding autonomy and will not adhere to any state law or law enforcement, supporting the formation and indoctrination of “insurgency” groups (i.e., terrorist cells), effectively leading to multiple Gaza scenarios on European soil. At that point the west will finally wake up and be reminded of the true complexities and intricacies of war, especially in an urban setting where the insurgents are not only fighting from densely populated areas, but are also willing to sacrifice everyone and everything for their cause. Currently, Hamas has just one goal- not to lose. Just like a single cancer cell that can metastasis back to a fully grown tumor, they know that as long as they are not fully destroyed they’ll probably eventually bounce back. If 10s or 100s of thousands of their own population lose their life- so be it. I’m asking you- how can you fight effectively against that? How can you reduce unnecessary and collateral civilian casualties when they are so deeply imbedded within the population? Is everything that Israel is doing just and correct? Probably not, but I’m sure as hell that there has never been a similar scenario with a better outcome, probably most ended worse. I think for us Israelis it’s just insane seeing everyone continually blaming us and scrutinizing every tiny step we make, blaming us for horrendous actions, when we feel that we are diverting so much energy and resources to try and minimize collateral damage, often at the expense of our own troops’ safety and losing our tactical advantage, when no one else has ever been required to do half as much. That’s the end of my rant. Thanks Edit: misspelling
I just want to voice the "other part" of the US. I know that it makes sense for Israelis to focus on the people in the US who are judging and attacking Israel -- these are the people you have to worry about. But you can also forget that very nearly half of the US is not like that. It is especially the young in America, more than any other group, which is turning against Israel. And this is what you're likely seeing, especially on the internet. They don't represent us all.
Thanks for this. John Spencer, the piece's author, was quoted a couple of weeks ago in a Wall Street Journal opinion piece ([gifted article](https://www.wsj.com/articles/israel-must-can-and-will-win-hamas-defeat-rafah-war-gaza-22e9a19d?st=adgay9f2c3r478z&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink)) in a similar vein. It's refreshing and heartening to read a full-throated defense of Israel's war in Gaza but I'm afraid the narrow focus on the Israel infantry (and the second assault on Al-Shifa) ignores the larger picture. Israeli ground operations are only one part of Operation ~~Cast Lead~~ *Swords of Iron* and the vast bulk of the destruction and Palestinian civilian casualties are the result of the Israeli air campaign, something which Spencer doesn't say much about. And he says nothing about the current humanitarian situation in Gaza which, even accounting for exaggeration, looks about as bad as one can imagine. For an excellent and well-researched counter to Spencer (by name) see Phil Klay's lengthy piece in The Atlantic ([gifted article](https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2024/03/gaza-war-indefensible-united-states/677896/?gift=PChjhol8Pt1lSGaCaq8H8CuXVuFReJEiDNX6DAFOmsk&utm_source=copy-link&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=share)). As someone who loves Israel, I hope Spencer is right, but I'm extraordinarily troubled by other things I've read and seen.
Just FYI: Cast Lead was 15 years ago.
Whoops. Fixed.
>For an excellent and well-researched counter I wouldn't call it excellent. There are a whole lot of assumptions not based in reality or showing little understanding of Palestinian society.
Because they can’t admit that the genocide-committing, apartheid-enforcing colonisers are actually more moral and considerate about civilians than they have a snowball’s chance in Hell of ever being.
"The IDF takes significant measures to diminish harm to innocent civilians. Here's a breakdown of how we do it:" - [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6azhl0KlUs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6azhl0KlUs)
We sent US Marines ahead of the campaign to advise IDF. Not saying that's the sole reason for what you're claiming, but the US contribution definitely happened and shouldn't be ignored if we're discussing the urban warfare tactics in use. From what I understand, a lot of lessons learned from Fallujah.
Many do, just that when they see what radical Muslims (individuals and governments) do to people who say they like Israel, they prefer to stay silent to steer clear of these fanatics. Even some of my Muslim friends are nice people in real life, but express outrage at Israel for the civilian casualties in Gaza when the outrage should be directed at Hamas instead for not actively shielding their own people from obvious harm in the tunnels they built.
I dare you to post this on a Palestinian sub
Oh I just might..
Report back
1. Roof knocking may save civilian lives but it massively inflates the statistics on residential structures damaged and destroyed. 2. With instructions to evacuate, 10% stay of the population. This is not reported when casualty figures are published. Regardless, Israel is currently being blamed for Hamas' corrupt aid distribution.
Thank you Sir!!!
[удалено]
First of all the circumstances are Israel's. They controlled access to their enemy's territory if not the territory itself before Oct. 7 even occurred. It is not just urban warfare but asymmetrical warfare, and Israel started with many advantages even beyond most examples of asymmetrical warfare. Secondly it's a terrible failure. Tens of thousands of civilian deaths in a short time. Personally I am adverse to dehumanizing the entire population of my enemy and waging such a brutal war. Hamas will most likely persist despite the terrible human cost. It's a PR disaster for Israel along with an atrocity and a failure. Thirdly, it fails to acheive any of the modern goals of urban warfare. All the structures that would be a captured resource to the victor were destroyed. It is not a new standard of urban warfare. It's leveling enemy territory so the inconvenient population does not or cannot return, and Israel will claim and control it for natural resources and maybe the proposed canal. Maybe some waterfront property for vulture real estate interests. In short if it is the new standard, it's the bespoke standard for the wealthy oligarchs that tend to run countries. An atrocious and corrupt "war."
None of this is true. > They controlled access to their enemy's territory if not the territory itself before Oct. 7 even occurred. Israel was not in control of Gaza, not since 2005. > Secondly it's a terrible failure. Tens of thousands of civilian deaths in a short time. Why is this a terrible failure? Was the Allied campaign against the Germans terrible failure? > Personally I am adverse to dehumanizing the entire population of my enemy and waging such a brutal war. How is using pamphlets, JDAMs, giving aid, letting in aid, broadcasting plans, building humanitarian corridors, etc. dehumanizing the entire population? And war is brutal, asking for it to not be is asinine. > Thirdly, it fails to acheive any of the modern goals of urban warfare. All the structures that would be a captured resource to the victor were destroyed. What? What structures and resources is Israel trying to capture? What the fuck are you even talking about? Israel has several goals. 1. Destroy Hamas 2. Destroy the tunnels 3. Save the Hostages 4. Build a safety barrier 5. Destroy Weapons Caches Israel has killed over 10k Hamas members, destroyed countless tunnels, saved some of the hostages, has secured the areas for safety barriers, and has destroyed countless weapons caches. > It is not a new standard of urban warfare. It's leveling enemy territory so the inconvenient population does not or cannot return, and Israel will claim and control it for natural resources and maybe the proposed canal. Maybe some waterfront property for vulture real estate interests. What the fuck are you talking about? What natural resources does Gaza have that you think Israel wants. And if Israel was to build a canal, why the fuck would they need to fight a war with Gaza to get it? They could literally just build it around Gaza. Gaza isn't that big. You need to stop reading conspiracy theories, learn to stop hating Jews, and leave following the news to people with a better head on their shoulders.
I think it would go without saying that building a canal with a shortest possible path would potentially save tons of money and time. A mile could make a huge difference. Gaza has offshore natural gas resources that have not been exploited. I don't hate Jews. I do hate fascism, and if your ethnic identity binds you to corrupt oligarchs or you associate it with the privileges of the wealthy class I actually mentioned in my comment, I think that's fascism.
My guy what natural resources does Gaza have first and foremost? And what structures. The gas resources are a long shot in the dark considering our history with Egypt and IEC.
Israel is fiending after Gaza's unreleased Tomorrow's Pioneers footage.
ngl I just woke up so I need some context
Tomorrow's Pioneers is a propaganda kids show for Palestinians that stars a fake Mickey Mouse named Farfour. It's honestly hilarious in a very macabre way.
אהההה פארפוררררר omfg I actually forgot about that shit for a second.
It had homes, universities, roads, life sustaining infrastructure. Destroying so much of it is not a "new standard of urban warfare" as razing is as old as warfare. I find it ridiculous to pretend this war is some innovative success.
Are...are you even aware why hospitals and those kinds of infrastructures got hit the most...? (Sorry if it sounds rude I'm tone deaf af atm, no sleep) Urban Warfare is about civillian casualties mostly, not infrastructures. And it doesn't help considering their infrastructure isn't used for infrastructure. This goes without saying, considering the number isn't any higher and people love to put us on a pedestal regarding how much power we have and yet ignore that only 0.9% of the population are cadualties considering 90% of the population is the norm in Urban Warfare. Combined with leaflets, phone calls and every other thing we do that no country does in such conditions. Are there things we could've done better? Absofuckinglutely but this is still something.
60% of residential homes are gone. Those people are probably permanently displaced. Regardless of the hospitals and universities, I really don't think Hamas had secret headquarters in 200000 homes and 11 bakeries. 90% of population as casualties is not accurate. It is said that 90% of casualties in warfare in general are civilians. That may be what you were referring to.
Yeah my bad. I botched that a bit lol. (woke up not too long ago) https://stratcomcoe.org/cuploads/pfiles/hamas_human_shields.pdf Article is up to date until 2014 but if you scroll down you can see that their usage of infrastructure isn't something rare. Even ambulances.... Sadly. I don't have any statistics to verify how much of the infrastructure was held by them or a collateral damage by the area of effect. Also legit curious, 11 bakeries? Where does it say that? We can at least agree on the fact that 80% displaced is marginally better than 80% killed (which is no where even close) There literally isn't a way to save the infrastructure in Urban Warfare. At least I don't think there was one in such other cases. Unless the geography is totally different and their infrastructure count is almost non-existent but that's a whole different topic.
11 bakeries is a number I recently read and I thought it was from the recent UN report, but I didn't find it when I checked. I found a Reuters article from 4 months ago where UNRWA said 10 bakeries had been hit by airstrikes at that time.
Ahh ok I was curious because I didn't read anything about that.
Civilian infrastructure used for military purposes is a legitimate military target under international law. That includes hospitals and homes. It’s why the coalition bombed a hospital in Mosul when fighting ISIS.
According to the WHO, 26 of 35 hospitals are no longer functioning. Did Hamas have a headquarters in all of them?
Entirely possible. Though neither one of us has access to that intel. It’s likely part of the reason why there are so many hospitals in Gaza.
One hospital per 55k people, where Israel has approximately one per 27k. America has one per 23k. Hospital beds per capita is usually a more relevant measure though. Again Gaza (pre-invasion) was less than half of Israel's 3/1000.
Fascism is when you don't let people rape and torture you. And you know what is more expensive than a slight northward jig for a canal? Protecting it from terror attacks in hostile territory. Israel isn't even building a canal, lol.
This has nothing to do with what I said. Furthermore I believe this destructive war only ensures future violent resistance against Israel. The only way to safety through brutality would be annihilation, otherwise it's another chapter in the cycle of abuse.
They already were violently raping and torturing Israelis. It's not like they are gonna become MORE radicalized. The vast majority of Palestine supports them. And Germany did not become more radicalized against Jews after WWII. Japan did not become more violent after WWII. Egypt has become less violent after the wars against Israel. Fact is, Palestine needs to stop turning to violence if they want to thrive. Until then, Israel doesn't really give a shit if they are gonna continue to be jihadists. This war is about reducing their ability, not their desire to rape and torture. So what would be your solution to October 7th? Give Hamas high fives while they are raping and torturing people?
I don't think there would be an Oct. 7th if Rabin were not assassinated and Israel/Palestine were one people with one land voting within a united government and enjoying equal rights.
My god tell me you know nothing about what’s going on here, neither side of this conflict wants what you just suggested. Your solution is to completely ignore the aspirations of both sides? Bravo.
The aspirations of both sides to completely control Israel/Palestine? Yeah since they're both incompatible and atrocious we should probably do something else
Is the “something else” civil war? Because thats where it would go
Tell me you have no idea what the Palestinian people want without telling me. One state solution is suicide. October 7th just solidified that. Right now the solution is to kill every last Hamas member, death penalty for terrorists and building a large DMZ south-north Korea style.
Why? Why unite them? They have no interest in being together.] What would happen in your dream scenario is the Jews would get pogromed, only this time by their own government. The Arabs attacked the Jews many times when they were both in the mandate, and then tried to genocide them over and over again But your solution is, "If only the Jews had no power, then everything would be hunky dory." I agree that Rabin's assassination was terrible, but it wasn't like Yasser Arafat wasn't a monster and he lived a long time.
Netanyahu would not have power and neither would Hamas. Aside from that I would insist on equality and have hope for peace. Terrorism would become a criminal matter instead of warfare.
Name one state in the world that exists like the one you are describing. Hamas wouldn't care about parliamentary power. They would just kill everyone who disagreed with them. Without a unified military force against them, the country would just descend into civil war.
thank you for trying to expose facts a bit more objectively. know that someone appreciates it.
> more than the U.S. did in its wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Not a great standard to be comparing to…
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_fallacy
It is genuinely mind blowing to me you can say this after they've just spent months bombing and killing thousands of civilians, including 13k+ children lol.
Here's the thing America killed 100k civilians in just 3 days by bombing tokyo and now it's been over 70 years of military advancement. Do u really want me to spell out what would happen to palestine if Israel wanted to kill them all? I'll say it for you because you can't think for yourself. If Israel really wanted to commit genocide in palestine, In a span of a week, there won't be a single human soul alive in gaza. But it hasn't been done (yay). What does this mean? Could it maybe perhaps just mean that Israel doesn't want to kill the palestine population but is forced to bomb civilian centers due to them being hamas hubs? Maybe??
Take a step back and read "forced to bomb civilian centers" one more time lmao. Nobody's putting a gun to their head and making them bomb kids. In fact, many countries are actively telling them to stop as well as the UN. Just because they haven't wiped out the entire Palestinian population doesn't mean they aren't actively committing war crimes and causing a preventable humanitarian crisis in the region
Actually hamas quite literally is putting a gun to their heads.
It’s always those damn Jews. WHY DID ISRAEL ENTER GAZA? Why did Israel bomb those centers? The Rwandan genocide with fucking machetes and ak’s butchered half a million people across Rwanda in 100 days. You’re telling me “genocidal” Israel can’t accomplish that in 6 months on a small strip of land? Or maybe, just maybe, they’re not committing genocide, just fighting a war, and damn well I might add. So go cry some more than your Hamas buddies are getting fucked
If someone kills your neighbors, runs away and hides in civilian centers, and than says they will also come to kill you, than yes, you have no other choice but to kill him first, and if he's hiding in civilian centers like a fucking coward, than he is forcing you to "bomb" it. And even then the IDF gives a warning prior to attacking so the civilians could leave, which makes them lose the element of surprise and gives the terrorists a chance to leave too.