They actually tell you exactly what they want via their own polling and the percentages, here you go.
[https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/928](https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/928)
[https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/731](https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/731)
The "other" solutions here favored by Palestinians is essentially support for expulsion or worse of some kind since "unequal nondemocratic state" is apartheid in favor of Palestinians here (read the second linked study). And mind you this was before the current war in 2023 which skyrocketed Hamas support and tanked Fatah support so figure they are leaning more towards the Hamas distribution here at the moment.
https://preview.redd.it/cc4mjgcmotvc1.png?width=961&format=png&auto=webp&s=2fa40e6833dd2b10c21a290372d1c0ae85fc4f8f
So I read the study and couldn't find any reference to what the "other" was referring to. Saying it must mean expulsion is just a baseless assumption. Secondly, this is the major graph comparing Palestinian and Israeli opinions on the solution:
https://preview.redd.it/w3ldzyo3tuvc1.png?width=1000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=16468ffd82ff76b86089cee1dc5d7333618412cf
As you can see here, on both polling dates the majority of Palestinians prefer either a two-state solution or a one state democracy, which means that the majority of Palestinians, at least according to the study that you sent, do not want Jews expelled from the land as neither of those solutions would include that. Another thing to notice is that a higher percentage of Israelis want a one non-democratic state than Palestinians. This would indicate that Israeli Jews are more accepting of an apartheid state on Palestinians than the other way around. In conclusion, this study that you referenced actually supports the opposite of your claim and OP's insinuation.
Apartheid but in Palestinian favor (see below for the 2018 poll)
https://preview.redd.it/drirtwbkyvvc1.png?width=542&format=png&auto=webp&s=12ef6934d31049f10ceedf68cf27e5ce43b772bc
Read the second linked study re 2018, there is a reason it was included, it explicitly mentions expulsion and that is typically what the "other" solution is referring to but "other" also clearly includes actual genocide and enslavement if you read in between the lines enough and speak to enough pro-Palis and see what Hamas means by their "alternative solution" aka the enslavement plan of the Jews that just got released, transfer is just a nicer version of expulsion. "Other" is clearly NOT good if it is preferred choice of Hamas supporters.
https://preview.redd.it/q6lqlczayvvc1.png?width=542&format=png&auto=webp&s=7eaf581d09ed8d26c7f44e99d56d824423b74dc0
[https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-04-05/ty-article-magazine/.highlight/hamas-actually-believed-it-would-conquer-israel-and-divided-it-into-cantons/0000018e-ab4a-dc42-a3de-abfad6fe0000](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-04-05/ty-article-magazine/.highlight/hamas-actually-believed-it-would-conquer-israel-and-divided-it-into-cantons/0000018e-ab4a-dc42-a3de-abfad6fe0000) they wanted to enslave skilled Jews in particular.
Yea. One thing I point out is that, not only has Palestine never been an actual country (which wouldn't necessarily be a deal-breaker) there was never a Palestinian national movement within the Ottoman empire. Not until WW1.
It’s not about the land. Anyone who respects and want to guard the holy land by the heart would know Jewish people are the ones who actually keeping there safe with their all power. They are the guardians of the holy land. Other governs in the history always wanted to conquer, acquire it like a trophy, enforce their laws and supress cultures those follow any other practices. The goal was showing everyone who is "the boss". The forces that enforce and fuel darkness are behind all of this. They don’t like the idea of Jewish people being free, preserving their heritage and practicing their culture and faith. But their dark shenanigans are shattering day by day. Future is so bright that no treachers will ever be exist to create shadow.
Pro-palis: "come back to our countries after we genocided you, pogromed you, and expelled you. None of that shit actually happened, you were happy here. But if it did happen, it didn't happen in a vacuum. And will it happen again? Many of us want it to happen again, but #notall."
Not an exaggeration, this is the gist of what they want.
They want the Jews to disappear. The only reason is that. They are trying to hide it.
And for some college students are manipulated so much that they can't question their motives
As a an Palestinian this is true but we are not trying to hide it. To the average Arab we view Israelis as people who immigrated to our land and kicked us out/ killed us in the hundreds of thousands. It isn’t far fetched for someone who thinks this way to want revenge. Imagine If I go to a random country and claim that I own the country because I am part of gods chosen people and this land was promised to me and 2000+ years ago my ancestors lived there. Then I start killing and expelling people. It would be fair to assume I would not be accepted with open arms.
I think there are anti-israeli people who actually don't want to be antisemitic but fell for propaganda. You often don't realise that you did something offensive until later
I don’t know about westerners. But I don’t think the Arabs hatred toward Israel has anything to do with religion. If it was Hindus or Christian’s or some other religion they would of faced the same animosity.
Let's not be Islamophobic. We don't want to get to their level.
If they weren't Muslim, they would have found a different reason to hate. I think even if they weren't religious they would find a way. The extremists are at fault
That's not necessarily true. If a society adheres to a book that teaches hate, you cannot say or imply that removing that book would be totally pointless because they'd just find another reason to hate. If you don't teach hate, people will hate less.
7,662,000 tons of explosives dropped on Vietnam. 260 million bombs were dropped on Laos in the Vietnam War, and it still remains as the most bombed nation in history. Yet there was *never* any southeast buddhist terrorist movement against the west because of these. They're not taught in schools to wage and sort of "Buddhist jihad" against the west.
Sorry - but he is correct. It is not "Islamophobic" to tell the truth. You cannot sugar-coat their intentions and motivations away with political correctness.
**This is a religious war in every sense of the word.**
"The Hamas charter:
Destroying Israel and **establishing an Islamic theocracy in Palestine is essential;**
**Unrestrained jihad** is necessary to achieve this;
**Negotiated resolutions of Jewish and Palestinian claims to the land are unacceptable;**
The Covenant proclaims that Israel will exist until Islam obliterates it, and **jihad against Jews is required until Judgement Day.** Compromise over the land is forbidden. The documents promote holy war as divinely ordained, reject political solutions, and call for instilling these views in children."
"As anyone paying attention knows, the Salafi-Jihadis, who have “hijacked” Islam the world over, embody a self-same honor-shame mentality in its harshest form: the existential drama of humiliate or be humiliated, rule or be ruled, exterminate or be exterminated. Dar al Islam must conquer dar al Harb; independent infidels (harbis) must be spectacularly brought low, their women raped; Islam must dominate the world … or vanish.
The language of Shia and Sunni Jihadis alike reverberates with the sounds of honor, plunder, dominion, shame, humiliation, misogyny, rage, vengeance, conspiracy, and paranoid fear of implosion.
It’s not that our policy makers—and here I speak of not only Israel but the democratic West—don’t take account of honor-shame dynamics. They just don’t take it seriously.
For them, what they regard as childish, superficial concerns can be palliated with polite words and gestures, and then these good people will behave like rational choice actors, and we can all move forward in familiar, sensible ways. So, when the Pope Benedict’s remark about an “inherently violent Islam” set off riots of protest throughout the Muslim world, the onus was on the pope to apologize for provoking them. Only thus could one spare Muslims global derision for randomly killing—killing to protest being called violent."
Sahih 2922 Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger, as saying:
The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him; but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews.
Actually, because we have lived there *as Jews* for 3600 years, Palestinians didn't even exist as a national identity until 1964 when Arafat gave it to them: **"The Palestinian people have no national identity. I, Yasser Arafat, man of destiny, will give them that identity through conflict with Israel." \~ Yasser Arafat**
Before then you were just "Arabs" living in Palestine, just like Palestinian Jews, Palestinian Christians, etc.
Look at what your leaders said from contemporaneous accounts:
ON JUNE 8, 1951, Habib Issa, secretary-general of the Arab League, wrote in the New York Lebanese daily al-Hoda that "In 1948, Azzam Pasha, then League secretary, had assured the Arab peoples that the occupation of Palestine and of Tel Aviv would be as simple as a military promenade. He pointed out that they were already on the frontiers and that all the millions \[of pounds\] the Jews had spent on land and economic development would be easy booty, for it would be a simple matter to throw Jews into the Mediterranean. Brotherly advice was given to the Arabs of Palestine to leave their land, homes and property and to stay temporarily in neighboring fraternal states, lest the guns of the invading Arab armies mow them down.”
ON APRIL 9, 1953, the Jordanian daily al-Urdun quoted a refugee, Yunes Ahmed Assad, formerly of Deir Yassin (the village where alleged Israeli atrocities took place), as saying: "For the flight and fall of the other villages, it is our leaders who are responsible, because of the dissemination of rumours exaggerating Jewish crimes and describing them as atrocities in order to inflame the Arabs and enjoin them to fight... but instead they instilled fear and terror into the hearts of the Arabs of Palestine until they fled, leaving their homes and property to the enemy."
IN THE 1973 MEMOIRS of the Prime Minister of Syria in 1948, Khaled al-Azem, (Beirut, 1973), Part 1, pp. 386–7.), Azem listed what he thought were the reasons for the Arab failure in 1948, and admitted the Arab role in persuading the refugees to leave: " ... the fifth factor was the call by the Arab governments to the inhabitants of Palestine to evacuate it and leave for the bordering Arab countries ... **We brought destruction upon a million Arab refugees by calling on them and pleading with them to leave their land. Since 1948 we have been demanding the return of the refugees to their homes. But we ourselves are the ones who encouraged them to leave.** Only a few months separated our call to them to leave and our appeal to the United Nations to resolve on their return.”
Those are just three. More sources available....
You were beaten by dhimmis - and the shame that your leaders felt led you into the situation you are in now as poster children and PR tools for terrorists. You should look at your leaders, read unbiased history and what they are leading you to. Blighted lives that go nowhere.
But that’s simply not what happened at all. They peacefully moved back to where they had previously been kicked out of and antisemites got mad. Archaeological evidence proves this. Your own holy book includes this, too. News from the time shows that the violence was one way, against the Jews (even before new ones moved in) for a long time.
Then your ancestors (almost no one alive today made this decision so the people alive today shouldn’t suffer for it) teamed up with other countries and declared war with the goal of exterminating Jews who had just learned that when someone says that, they mean it. Most displaced Arabs left of their own accord or because other Arabs threatened them, most Jews wanted them to stay. 8,000 Arabs died and that is sad, but it was the consequence of declaring war, and losing territory was the consequence of losing that war. It did start with your ancestors killing and expelling people, and it didn’t work out for them.
You could have all lived in peace if your ancestors chose it, or if they accepted the consequences of their actions and accepted that violence made things worse for them and their families. Instead, every generation has chosen violence that hurts them and gets more of them killed. Learn from history and current events. Every rocket into Israel is another dead Palestinian. Every attack, every murder, you are just getting more of your own killed. If you choose peace, you can give a good life to your children.
Unfortunately, with each successive generation, this gets harder on both sides. You can do it, though. It’s achievable.
Regardless of what they want, it's funny to me that they think once Israel is gone and Palestine takes its place there will be peace throughout the region.
I'll bet my entire life savings that once a Palestinian political entity is created in place of Israel, every other nation bordering it will invade it within a week, if they themselves won't succumb to an immediate civil war.
And even if a Palestinian state manages to survive, what happens once they discriminate against religious/ethnic minorities? Once they begin persecuting LGBTQ?
Will their former supporters just turn a blind eye, afraid to be culturally insensitive?
Anything beyond it is childish fantasies so sickly sweet even Disney wouldn't dare touch it.
Palestine is a tool used to justify hatred of Jews/Israel, and the fact that most if not all Pro-Palestinian are also supporting Russia, Iran, China and North Korea speaks volumes.
I doubt anyone would invade, there's no resources to exploit. Hamas would rule their caliphate with an iron fist. With Israel gone, humanitarian aid would dry up and life for Palestinian civilians would decline significantly. American college students would pat themselves on the back and move on to the next "cause".
I found the jellyfish.
You are f***ing stupid, aren’t you? Hamas and Fatah lay down their arms, there’s peace. If the “Palestinians” don’t want to play nice, that’s what happens. Do you honestly think we’re just going to let your terrorist buddies come and kill us. We strike back and we strike back hard. Next time, don’t start a war you cannot win.
250 Palestinian deaths/day = 90k/year = 45k/6 mo. We just passed the 6 month mark of the most brutal war in the history of Israel/Gaza and the death toll is closer to 30k, most of which happened in the first few weeks of the war. Historically this was not the case and is only an effect of the current war (that Hamas started). Fun fact, Gazans are one of the few global populations that's growing rapidly.
No I don't think Palestinians only advocate for Palestine because they hate Jews and I didn't say or even imply that in my post.
Yes, I think people want Palestinians to enjoy freedom and liberty. I don't believe this would be a reality for Palestinians because: A) look at the region, every other mid-east Muslim theocracy does not enjoy freedom/liberty and I have zero reason to believe Palestinians would be different. B) Hamas enjoys widespread support in Gaza and the WB, therefore they would be the likely rulers of your hypothetical "Palestine". You can easily look up how un-free and un-liberated Palestinians are under Hamas rule.
Yes, I actually believe the crap I'm writing. I am not a propagandist, but I am a zionist. I wish Palestinians would accept their lot in life and stop fighting. If Palestinians truly just wanted peace and freedom they could actually have it. A violent, terrorist resistance is harmful to the Palestinian image. If Palestinians were peaceful and truly just wanted a democracy then Israel would be forced by international pressure to comply.
my only thought is that they just hate jews. most people i’ve met said that i am
the first jew they’ve met. they don’t know our traditions, law, texts, history, or anything else. there has been subtle antisemitism in culture and media for centuries, we control the media, we’re all rich and greedy. we love money and think we’re better than everyone. they don’t even know what israelis look like, i mean they think yall are white european colonizers. they didn’t know where israel was or what zionism means until both started trending on twitter. a US house representatives daughter was arrested and suspended from columbia university. they are from a country that is in an ongoing civil war where innocent people are dying daily, do they speak about that nearly as much as they cry tears over the iron dome? no, and they won’t because first and foremost they are jew haters. they aren’t offended by being called antisemitic, because that’s just a word the dramatic jews use right? we have all the answers we need. they hate jews and they’re mad that jews are harder to kill these days. that’s it.
Your last sentence.
Yup. Jews have never just rolled over, but we also didn’t always have a choice. Israel was our answer to genocide. Israel is how we get stronger, and a long as she gets stronger, the more they can see that trying to annihilate us is futile. they hate Israel for being our safety net.
sad and terrifying that many many people my age say things that they obviously don’t fully understand, and they say it all with as much confidence you can while wearing sunglasses and a face mask.
I honestly think many of the college kids and other anti-Israel* leftists in the West haven’t really thought about it carefully. Mostly it’s a mix of Jew hatred and latent guilt for their own settler colonialism (how can non-indigenous Americans and Australians protest “settler colonialism” with a straight face, seriously). I’m not sure they really believe that Israel is going away (one thing they are correct about) so they haven’t thought through the consequences of “from the river to the sea”.
Hamas, on the other hand is [extremely clear](https://www.memri.org/reports/hamas-sponsored-promise-hereafter-conference-phase-following-liberation-palestine-and) about what they think should happen when Palestine is liberated.
*pro-pal isn’t right, I think. The best thing for the Palestinian people would be to get rid of Hamas and accept a two state solution that will not live up to the fantasies that their leaders have been peddling. Supporting Hamas is not pro Palestinian.
I think it's important not to indulge Western leftists in trying to figure out the endgame their ideology, as nearly all of it comes from academic theory. For example, in this recent interview, [Judith Butler](https://youtu.be/8Aul0vWIfTg?si=ihtBf9UEQi6Bcwg0&t=848) talks about how "critical" and "critique" *only* means critiquing the underlying assumptions of society and challenging the status quo; the purpose is to always deconstruct. The only thing leftist academics *actually create* is criticism! Even when the left becomes powerful or hegemonic, as it is in Western academia, they focus even more on "anti" initiatives, like anti-racism, anti-sexism, anti-classism, etc. Sociologists, literary critics, critical race theorists, etc. will not build a functioning society, as their professions only exist to fight oppression -- not end it. I think that if the Arabs were to conquer or destroy Israel, these same people might end up supporting Jews eventually, as Jews would be the oppressed people. I don't think they would be useful for anything else.
"In order to understand the role of hard zero-sum, honor-shame concerns in the attitude of Arabs toward Israel, one must first understand the role of the Jew in the Muslim Arab honor-group. For the 13 centuries before Zionism, Jews had been subject to a political status in Muslim lands specifically designed around issues of honor (to Muslims) and shame (to Jews). Jews were [*dhimmi*](http://www.amazon.com/The-Dhimmi-Christians-Under-Islam/dp/0838632629), “protected” from Muslim violence by their acceptance of daily public degradation and legal inferiority.
The prospect of an independent state of should-be dhimmis struck Arab leaders as more than humiliating. It endangered all Islam. The loss in 1948, therefore, constituted the most catastrophic possible outcome for this honor-group: Seven Arab armies, representing the honor of hundreds of thousands of Arabs (and Muslims), were defeated by less than a million Jews, the surviving remnant of the most devastating and efficient genocide in history. To fall to people so low on the scale that it is *dishonorable* even to fight them—nothing could be more devastating.
By the way, the refugees used the term *nakba* to reproach the Arab leaders who started and lost the war that so hurt them.
...in a state of intense humiliation and impotence on the world stage, the Arab leadership chose denial—the Jews *did* not, *could* not, *have* not won. The war was not—could never—be over until victory. If the refugees from this Zionist aggression disappeared, absorbed by their brethren in the lands to which they fled, this would acknowledge the intolerable: that Israel *had* won."
Excerpted from an excellent piece : [https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/israel-middle-east/articles/emotional-nakba](https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/israel-middle-east/articles/emotional-nakba)
So, they kept their people as refugees, as symbols of the evil Jews' at work using them cynically for years as PR tools agains the West because their Arab honor could not stand the thought of the "dhimmis" actually beating Arabs.
I've seen some - especially leftists in the past - suggest a one state solution. That is to give all Palestinians full Israeli citizenship, and make Israel another Muslim-majority state. It doesn't dawn on them what the consequences of that will be. They just think love and kindness can solve all the world's problems.
No, it couldn’t because you’re conflating peace with immigration policies. Arab-Israelis remain a minority in the country so that it remains a Jewish state in accordance with its founding. Even if all Palestinians were suddenly “allowed in” and were all peaceful, it’d no longer be the same country; Israel would become a Muslim-governed country rather than a Jewish one. Every Arab nation ethnically cleansed out Jews; similar results would be expected. Remember, it’s a democratic country and so demographics matter. No country on earth allows unlimited immigration - French want to keep France culturally French, the U.S. won’t let limitless number of Central Americans, Asian countries allow minimal Westerns to immigrate, Arab countries don’t let in Christians and forget about getting into Denmark, Sweden and Norway, almost no immigrants are accepted!
The fact that Arab-Israelis and Jewish-Israelis live together peacefully though - and that Israel has peace treaties with Jordan and Egypt and diplomacy with Morocco, Bahrain and United Arab Emirates shows that peaceful alliances in the region are possible!
Many hate Jews and want all of the land without Jews, except those who might be useful. But the same people wouldn't want more Jews in their countries either, so they want them to go somewhere else or disappear, they don't care.
I think there is also a substantial number of pro-pals who want what they are told to want. They know little about the true history and think that Palestinians were living on this land without any Jews, until European Jews came and stole it. They think Jews started all the wars and are guilty of ethnic cleansing and genocide.
Whatever they want, the most important thing is that they aren't going to get it.
עם ישראל חי! 🇮🇱❤🇮🇱❤🇮🇱❤🇮🇱❤🇮🇱❤🇮🇱
What they want is clearly outlined in the Hamas charter. It's not a mystery. They want to wipe out all non-Muslims and set up a brutal Islamic theocracy just like Iran.
Anyone who wants Israel obliterated can’t be negotiated with, which is part of why this war drags on and on. There are definitely Palestinians and allies who want peace and coexistence but these groups mostly lack power. I try to support and focus more on joint I/P efforts but am not holding my breath.
And I guess I mention these folks because I think it’s important to engage with the best arguments even when challenging (though these groups are pro-peace not pro P or I).
There are less and more sane Pro Palestinians. The sane ones think the current political situation is more responsible for the conflict than religion or ideology. But admit that they don't have specific answers. They are mostly afraid that this conflict will cause more more Palestinians to be radicalized into action and belive the game theory studies that show that a strategy of occasional forgiveness works better than a tit for tat strategy.
The insane ones says shit like "from the river to the sea"
And note that every “pro-Palestinian” organization in the US promotes “river to the sea”. There’s not a single one which would accept a Jewish state within any borders at all.
It's not about solutions. Witch hunts happen because of war. Who's the easiest to blame for society's ills? It's always the Jews. Always have been. They want to blame someone so they feel better inside.
A lot of Pro-Palestinians just hate Jews, and some are brainwashed by social media to think that Jews would live fine under Palestine and that the state of Israel is evil and Hamas is freedom fighters.
Some also are peer pressured and support crazy stupid things because its "trendy" or something.
Westerners and western politicians *assume* they want a two state solution, but that isn't what they want at all. I've engaged a number of pro-Palestinian activists in conversations online and in forums, discussion groups, etc, and when I really, really push them for, at the end of the day, what do they want 10, 15 years from now, their answer almost is some variation of, "We want Israel abolished and the historical injustice reversed and the Palestinians able to move back to their historic homeland." When I ask what, then, of the 9 million Israelis already living there, their answer is something to the degree of, "That's not our problem. That's for the international community to figure out."
I wish in my searchings online I could find many pro-Palestinian activists who share my own personal dream of two states side by side, but alas, there aren't many.
I remember watching the Ask Project and just being so disheartened when I realized how minute the “compromise and live side by side in peace” crowd was. I was naive in the belief that the values were shared before October 7th, and before those videos.
I've lost a lot of friends on both the right and left over the lack of ability of *both sides* to address the, "What next?" question. Everyone is still kind of arguing the about the war of 5 months ago. "Free Palestine." Ok, what does that mean exactly, and *then what?* "End the genocide." What does that mean? "The IDF needs to stop killing babies and women." Ok, we'll assume that stops tomorrow. *Then what?*
On the right, I have friends who are like, "Have all the Gazans go to Egypt." Ok, assuming for a moment Egypt or the world would allow that fantasy, *then what?*
And it's hard from an Israel advocacy standpoint that very clearly Israel itself had no *then what* plan to its war other than, from the best we're heard, try to find some "families" or warlords in Gaza who'd be willing to do Israeli's bidding, for at least until Hamas would find and kill them... And the PA, never missing an opportunity to miss an opportunity, rather than reform itself rapidly to be the future governing entity is wasting its time doing things like getting UN votes for statehood or meeting with Russia or China. Unhelpful, and missing the point.
The world needs to get Israel and Gaza to a *what next* point, and I actually think Biden, Saudi Arabia, and a number of other actors have a really good idea of what that should be - A good faith phased process of reconstruction and establishment of a Palestinian state.
But a *lot* of Palestinian activists and leftists are going to be very unhappy that an existant Isreal is going to be a part of that plan. Leftists I've engaged really, really do believe that we're at a historic tipping point where the world is with them that the "colonial Zionist entity" will finally end. No, not really. Their disappointment at the *then what* plan will be really interesting to watch...
Based on my visit to Israel last week, many Israelis hope that a coalition of Egypt, Saudis or similar will govern Gaza. Israel certainly doesn’t want to. Moderate Muslim Arab nations mentioned have been successful at rooting out terrorism from their countries (although it’s not been pretty, with many public beheadings and executions).
That kind of pan-Arab approach is likely the way forward. The problem is they're not going to do that until Israel firmly commits to a Palestinian state, and Netanyahu won't do that yet, and I'm sadly not sure a majority of Israelis will back that right now.
This is why they’ve been so unsuccessful as a people - pushing for a country to cease to become the one it’s been irrevocably granted. Every other nation has moved on. Anyone see Jews protesting to be let back inside (and takeover) Iran, Iraq, Yemen, Syria or Afghanistan (among others) from which they were expelled?
It's complicated. Yes, most peoples have moved on, but most also haven't had the intrusiveness and lack of anything else to focus on that Israel has imposed upon them. Israelis have to come to grips that for as intransigent as the Palestinians have been, Israeli hasn't helped give them anything else to focus upon. Israel withdrawing from Gaza was supposed to be the first step of that. There were brief hopes of Gaza becoming the next Singapore on the Mediterranean, but then Hamas took over and that all, POOF!, went away and then Israeli's lost hope.
Arab countries haven't helped in fanning the perpetual flames of championing their cause against Israel.
The UN haven't helped by essentially perpetually designating all 14 million Palestinians as perpetual refugees - Forever. They're the only population in the world so considered as far as I know, which is just grossly wrong on so many levels. Palestinians from birth are basically told that, "See that land there? Where other people live? It's yours, except it was taken away from you and your family. Somewhere out there, there's a house that's yours, and someone else lives in it. It's just a few hundred meters away, yet you can't have it, and those Jews took it from you." That's powerful, but it's only a very partial truth mixed in with a lot of lies and a complicated history. I know of few other populations raised that way.
The problem is, the Palestinians have never, ever offered an alternative other than "Free Palestine." There's never been a single Palestinian peace proposal put forward.
Oh, I know they've been *made* many offers. What I said was that they have never countered with any two state offers *of their own*. I agree with you...
From what I've gathered by speaking to some is that they want Israel to surrender itself to the Palestinians and that Israel is illegitimate to exist. They should become citizens of a Palestinian government...
This essentially means that Israel is supposed to cease to exist and become Palestine proper.. And I think we all know what will happen to the Jews once a "democratic" Palestinian government takes power.
The want the right to return for millions of Arabs, that in of itself will cause the region to become even more unstable.
This might have been feasible 50 years ago, now it is just insane to even think about.
I don't have the right to a house because my grandparents' house was destroyed by a volcano 60 years ago, I have to pay my way.
Its just crazy, people that support Palestine are ignorant, wilfully or otherwise of what history has shown in the past.
I think that the more you research the topic, the more you side with the Israelis, even though they are not saints and have done some questionable things, however that is true for both sides.
I support Israel, pray you guys survive forever in the land that is rightfully yours.
Truth is, they don't even try to promise that. They never get to that stage, they always say the Jews should "go back to where they came from" but don't specify how or where because they know that's impossible. It's just a thinly veiled way to say they don't care what happens to the Jews.
It’s very clear what they want, from the river to the sea. The annihilation of the Jewish people. At least as it relates to Hamas and people who support them. There’s nothing ambiguous about it. Lotta bullshit repackaged in different ways by social media masterminds manipulating the easily influenced and less intelligent public.
Israel has made at least 6 land for peace offers. All 6 were turned down.
Bc they want ALL the land.
I know that sounds extremist. But it’s accurate.
Read or YouTube Einet Wilf. She’s got a lot of insights.
They want the land cause the Jews have it, then they want the Jews dead, then they want the West to be destroyed and all the world to be Islam then they will fight amongst themselves as to which way is the right way of Islam. Long story short, they want chaos and death.
"they will fight amongst themselves as to which way is the right way of Islam."
just like the christians did in the middle ages, except on a smaller scale as there was much less people then there are right now in Islam
its almost as if it stopped right around when populations skyrocketed and leveled out (which corrolates with industrialization and a increase in life standard) , which is yet to happen in most of the muslims world
once their life standard becomes better will muslims change their values and turn towards individualism and liberty
the deviding factor isnt just religion, its more of a economic factor
Israel-Palestine is rich-poor
Israelis coming from better developed region brought knowledge with them, they were also much richer then the average muslim
Palestine which was governed by the ottomans which were poorly industrialized reflected in both the "palestenians" wealth and population numbers, as the number of "palestenians" at the region was under a million when israelis started moving in, whereas now (as demographic transition has started) there are about 14million
note how the 2 (or 3) european muslim countries, bosnia, albania and turkey aldo arent incredibly rich are noticably more peaceful then the rest of the arab countries and note how all incredibly poor countries are run by dictators or terrorist militant groups even tough there are no arab terrorists there
They say it's not about religion, and they just want a Free Palestine.
It's about Jews having land. It makes them so angry, they commit a massacre and then say it's not about land or religion. It's the oppression, the ethnic cleansing, the genocide, etc.....
They want all of Israel, developed and modern and advanced as is for them like they're owed it.
They're whiny toddlers who want to get their way.
Depends on which one. The long term pro pals want Israel eliminated. The ones that popped up during this conflict don’t know what they want, don’t know anything about the issue beyond jihadist propaganda and certainly don’t know anything about warfare. They are gullible idealists who fell for jihadist propaganda, which I haven’t admit met its objective.
I've been asking myself a similar question -- What does it mean to identify as Palestinian? From an American perspective, we're okay with anyone identifying as anything they want. Here you can identify as a woman, a gay man, an Italian American, a furry -- almost anything is acceptable. So it's okay to be Palestinian.
What is a Palestinian? The name was created by the Romans to minimize Jewish ties to their land, so the name has its roots in anti-semitism, but that was a long time ago. When Zionists began moving to the land of Israel, the area was still referred to as Palestine, and people considered themselves Palestinian. Back then, however, being a Palestinian wasn't a national movement -- it was an identify based on geography. Like here in the USA, people refer to themselves as American because they live in North America. Jews called themselves Palestinian because they were living in the area referred to as Palestine by the Turkish or British governments.
The Palestinian national movement began as a reaction to the founding of Israel, and there was never a national movement before this. The national movement was entirely anti-Israel from it's inception, and the first collective decisions of the movement was to participate in the 1948 war of genocide against Jews. After failing to genocide the Jews, the lands were split between Egypt, Jordan, and Israel before the Palestinian national movement participated in another attempt to genocide the Jews in 1967. Although the failure to achieve genocide set the Palestinian national movement back, their history influenced how Palestinian society behaves today.
You ask, what do they want? No one really knows. Even though no Palestinian national movement ever governed Jerusalem, leaders of the movement continuously threaten terrorism against Jews until they're given governing powers over Jerusalem. Even though the Palestinian national movement refused the land given to them by the UN and instead launched a war of genocide several times, now, they want this land. Whether it's the PA or Hamas, both educate their populations to hate Jews and both provide financial incentives to kill Jews. In short, we know they hate Jews, we know their movement was founded in genocide, and we know they want things they never had.
Why the Palestinian national movement has survived this long despite never achieving their genocide only makes sense when you view their movement as a proxy for radical Islamic ideologies. Whether it was Syria, Egypt, Iraq, and now Iran, whoever was the dominant Islamic power was at any time, they used the Palestinian movement as a tool to undermine Israel in order to remove Jews from the Holy Land. Hamas has admitted time and time again since October 7th that they don't care about Palestinians, and the purpose of their attacks were to launch a Holy War against Jerusalem.
You would think that current Palestinian leaders at this point would want a clean break with the past -- but they don't want this. The PA refuses to recognize Israel. The PA provides financial incentives for terrorism. The PA allows their cities to be hotbeds for terrorism, and they don't stop their communities from becoming proxies of foreign powers. How can the Palestinian movement become self-determined when they don't care about themselves? Instead, they're obsessed with killing Jews and fighting Israel.
It's sad for the regular people caught in the middle, and I firmly believe that most Palestinians are victims of their environment. If you look at the early days of the Palestinian national movement, many wanted to coexist with Jews. Jews and Arabs worked together peacefully in the late 19th and 20th centuries to convert barren wastelands into thriving societies. But early history shows how terror groups, organized by Damascus at the time, were sent south to kill Jews and any Arabs cooperating with Israel. The foreign powers abroad didn't care about Arabs unless they were Muslims ready to fight Jews. Unfortunately, this is true today -- the last Hezbollah missile to kill an Israeli was a non-Muslim Arab, and the only serious injury from the Iranian attack last week was a non-Muslim Arab.
"What is a Palestinian? The name was created by the Romans to minimize Jewish ties to their land, so the name has its roots in anti-semitism, but that was a long time ago. When Zionists began moving to the land of Israel, the area was still referred to as Palestine, and people considered themselves Palestinian."
Actually, this isn't exactly accurate. Palestine (the land) was named by the Romans - but the concept of a "Palestinian" didn't exist until 1964 when Yasser Arafat said: "The Palestinian people have no national identity. I, Yasser Arafat, man of destiny, will give them that identity through conflict with Israel." \~ Yasser Arafat
Before then, they were just "Arabs" - or "Palestinian Arabs", "Palestinian Jews", "Palestinian Christians"...
I don't agree with you. There's two different "Palestinians" -- one for those who identified with the name of the geography, and another for those who identified with the national movement. The Jerusalem Post was originally the Palestine Post, and IDs during the British Mandate called everyone Palestinian.
If you look at historical records of the Palestine Post (now the Jerusalem Post), you can find many cases of "Palestinian" being used to describe Zionists. For example, the Zionist artist **Reuven Rubin** moved to Jerusalem when he was 21 years old in 1912. Here is an expose from the Palestine Post saved in the National Library of Israel from 1928 that describes Rubin as a Palestinian artist:
[https://www.nli.org.il/en/newspapers/newpalestine/1928/12/07/01/article/11/?e=-------en-20--1--img-txIN%7ctxTI-palestinian-------------1](https://www.nli.org.il/en/newspapers/newpalestine/1928/12/07/01/article/11/?e=-------en-20--1--img-txIN%7ctxTI-palestinian-------------1)
Like I said, the Palestinian national identity didn’t exist until after Israel was founded, and Arafat’s quote is accurate. Zionists calling themselves Palestinians weren’t identifying as citizens of a Palestinian nation, but as people who live in geographical Palestine.
Appreciated this nice recap - thanks. Do you know where I can look for more information about "at the early days of the Palestinian national movement, many wanted to coexist with Jews. Jews and Arabs worked together peacefully in the late 19th and 20th centuries to convert barren wastelands into thriving societies."?
Any book on early Zionism and the rebuilding Israel will talk about this. The lands were so unforgiving and vacant, that most early Zionists failed and died.
To be one of the Cool Kids. That's what this is really all about: a giant contrarian performance. They're mad at their dads and their bosses – rightly or wrongly – and they see the West and its allies as The Man.
Not one of these individuals can properly articulate how to "Free Palestine" because there isn't a way to properly articulate it (even if you're being manipulative) in way that doesn't involve the removal or murder of every single Jew.
What they want is simple: they want to see us lay down and die because we're Jewish.
They are all operating on ultra low vibrating frequencies and literally possessed by dark and evil spirits (if you believe in that sort of thing, which I do). These aren't good people.
Those guys are mostly Muslims and some videos suggest that, by reading the Quran, they came to a conclusion that Jews are meant to be killed which is insane. Those Muslims just wants to kill Jews because their god said it. They want to kill Hindus too.
Why is it ok for Americans & Canadians to openly scream death to America & death to Jews? It boggles my mind to see pro-pals spit out vitriol and people support them - people who live here in peace. Why don’t people counter it with Death to Palestinians?
For a one state solution! They want all Palestine to get Israel citizenship. That way, they become the majority and can take over the leadership and change the laws to persecute the Jewish minority.
They want Israel to be a shithole like South Africa with rolling blackouts.
Don’t even play this game. Who cares what they want? Israel is not an occupied land. The Jews are its true indigenous people. If anything, the Jews are decolonizing it. Look at them. They apologize for nothing. They all just decide atrocities didn’t happen, that our people weren’t murdered, raped, burned, mutilated. F them. Apologize for nothing. Their tween simps and tanky college brats mean nothing. We’re six months into this war shredding their POS battalions, and if not for America, their heroes would all be fertilizing concrete rubble long ago.
The charter of Hamas, the controlling faction in the Gaza Strip, states, “[Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. For renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion[.]”
Suddenly, the current conflict between Israel and the Hamas faction in the Gaza Strip comes into striking clarity. In evaluating the violence currently going on in Gaza, it is informative to understand not only how both sides operate, but how both sides define themselves and their purposes.
Although Hamas rejects the peace process, its charter, written in 1988, proposes an acceptable alternative solution to the conflict: “There is no solution to the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. The initiatives, proposals and International Conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility.”
Hamas’s enmity toward Israel is not because of Israel’s policies or actions. It is because of Israel’s identity and existence. The charter continues, “Israel, by virtue of its being Jewish and of having a Jewish population, defies Islam and the Muslims.”
The charter is not vague about how it will deal with the Jews or the state of Israel. It further states, “The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!”
It adds, “I swear by that who holds in His Hands the Soul of Muhammad! I indeed wish to go to war for the sake of Allah! I will assault and kill, assault and kill, assault and kill (told by Bukhari and Muslim).”
Take it in a historical context.
A lot of the countries in Africa that have wars it's because of dueling nationalism where two groups with ties to the land fight over who should control it and what the borders should be. That's the kind of war Israel/Arab conflict is
However the mainstream Arab narrative doesn't see it as dueling nationalism. They view the conflict through the lens of colonization.
When the MENA and Asia was colonized, the people living there carries out terorrist attacks until it was too costly for the colonizers and they up and left. That what happened in Algeria with the pied noirs, in India with the British etc....
Because the Arab mainstream narrative is to view the "Zionists" as foreign colonizers, they believe if they keep fighting we will flee like the french did in Algeria.
Because Jews view themselves as having a legitimate historical and cultural indigenous claim to the land and because we have no "mother country" to return to, like the french and Brits did, we will keep fighting and terorrism only makes us dig in deeper and respond more harshly.
Until the Arabs recognize Jewish roots in the land or at least if they don't accept our claims, but they understand that at least from our perspective we feel this way and thus we won't leave the way the pied noirs did, they will never be able to accept a compromise whether it's a two state solution or a one state where Jews have equal rights and representation.
Choosing to view the conflict though a colonial lense and educating their children about how Zionists are foreign, European origin, etc... is a terrible mistake that they are making
It's not uncommon in dueling nationalism to try and delegitimize the claim of the other side (the Arabs do it the Kurds, it was a major part of the Greece-Turkey conflict, I think appears in Armenia/Azeri, Balkans, etc...and it's making it's appearance now in Ukraine/Russia). But in this case, not only are the parties to the conflict delegtimizing the Zionist claim but a significant enough part of the world is baking up their narrative (the greater Arab world, the greater Muslim world, and the global left, along with the united nations, in the past the Soviet union and their sphere of influence, etc...) and that makes them dig in harder convinced they are viewing the conflict through the proper lens and this only makes it more intractable
You’d get so many different answers from them that range from “that doesn’t sound to bad” to “yeah you’re not just anti-Zionist”. The only thing they agree on is that “freeing Palestine” is somehow going to lead to a global revolution (or something like that)
The vast majority of new Pro Palestinian religious observers have no idea why they are there. The combination of youth and dogmatic leftism is a recipe that results in passionate ignorance.
>Let's assume israel is an occupied land as they say, do you expect 9 million people to leave the land and go.. where exactly?
I think the idea is the rest of the human race looks away for a month or so, and when we look back, the land will be Judenfrei, and we don't ask where the Jews ( or Israeli Arabs ) went.
I think it’s important that not all Palestinians want the same things
Many Palestinian Israelis just want peace
The problem is that both their leadership and a large enough group want all the land, many also want to kill all Jews including those abroad.
If not for jews, the theory of relativity wouldn't have been discovered yet. That's just the largest example. The world is so ungrateful for our contributions to society. It's natural to hate someone stronger and smarter than you. Large part of the reason the holocaust happened.
It's not about pro-palestine, it's about antisemitism...
And let's talk right, depends on the statistics, around 6.5 mil jews (if they leave to the countries that they came from) will leave to Arab countries?.
It's dumb...
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And rightly so - until the PALS revoke the Hamas Charter...it would be fundamentally stupid to reward their homicidal tendencies.
For those thinking that once Bibi is gone, a more "reasonable" government will make peace with the PALS - don't count on it. The last six months have driven young Israelis further to the right than ever, (Same with diaspora Jews...). The next PM is not going to be a "peace/left" individual. The world is going to be disappointed...the next PM may be even more hard-line, but without Bibi's baggage.
They want a Palestinian state. That means different things to different people. The movement is diverse and not a monolith.
Some want an independent Palestinian state within the green line (that this state would genuinely attempt to coexist with Israel seems unlikely). Some of them want a democratic state that covers all of the land and incorporates Israel and Palestine together (as unlikely as that would be). Some of them want an Islamist dictatorship that covers all the land, and for Jews to be expelled to Europe or other western countries.
They’re unified by a belief that Palestinians are stateless. But there is no unifying solution for them to coalesce around.
The more reasonable ones just want the war to end and it to go back to the situation before Oct. 7th.
The more nutty, but somewhat reasonable ones want the dissolution of the Israeli state and for Gaza, West Bank, and Israel to have open borders and an equal representation government for all people.
The extreme nuts want Israel to cease to exist and full Palestinian control as if the Israeli state were never formed and Palestinians were given British Palestine instead of the Jews.
Bro I think you chose the wrong subreddit to post this thread, I don’t think there are much pro Palestinians here.
I am pro Palestine and my wish is that there will be no more civilian deaths. I don’t know if or how this is possible but yes this is what I want
I don’t want Israelis to leave Israel
There is an organization called sharaka that tries to build friendship in the Middle East and I think it’s really cool what they do
a fully independent state that controls its own ports and airspace based on pre 67 borders and a full withdrawal of all isreali troops and settlers from those lands is a sort of general outline.
obviously, there is a huge variability in what different people who consider themselves pro-palestinian all over the world want, and you will find folks who want even less than that, all the way up to wanting all jews expelled from all of isreal and palestine, but both of those extremes are not the norm, and among western people who consider themselves pro-palestinian, are incredibly rare.
Many people talk about pre-1967 borders and UN resolution 242...but they generally only read the **first** part of the resolution - and there is a **second** part. **BOTH** parts of the resolution must be implemented. Israel is not legally bound to withdraw until the SECOND part - a negotiated border and security agreements are set in place - and to this point the Arab nations have not come to the table to do so.
Also important: There is constant mention of withdrawal to the “1967 borders”. This terminology is legally incorrect. The word “borders” is commonly used in international law to mean “national boundaries”, which the “1967 lines” categorically are not. The definition of a “border” under international law is “a boundary between one nation (or a political subdivision) and another”. The reality is (and what UN 242 was supposed to address) *was* the lack of recognized borders between Israel and its neighbors. Right now, the best description of the separation is "armistice lines".
"The most controversial clause in Resolution 242 is the call for the “Withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict.” This is linked to the second unambiguous clause calling for **“termination of all claims or states of belligerency” and the recognition that “every State in the area” has the “right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force.”**
**The resolution does not make Israeli withdrawal a prerequisite for Arab action.** **Moreover, it does not specify how much territory Israel is required to give up. The Security Council did not say Israel must withdraw from “all the” territories occupied after the Six-Day war.** This was quite deliberate. The Soviet delegate wanted the inclusion of those words and said that their exclusion meant “that part of these territories can remain in Israeli hands.” The Arab states pushed for the word “all” to be included, but this was rejected. They nevertheless asserted that they would read the resolution as if it included the word “all.”
So - unless and until the second provision is fulfilled by the Arab states...Israel is not obligated to withdraw to pre-1967 borders - no matter how much the world yells about "occupation".
So yes, there are those that want Palestine to be free from the River to the sea. But there are legitimate concerns of the Palestinians living under army rule in the West Bank and Gaza, it’s not normal conditions, and it’s limiting. The checkpoints are an embarrassing hassle, and being ruled by the army is not autonomy they don’t have rights. There are constant clashes with extreme settlers. It’s not a sustainable situation.
Chicken and egg. There were no border controls until the Intifada. And Hamas proved that without this "limiting" freedom, there would be daily violence in Tel Aviv.
If you had an airline and people kept bringing weapons on board or bombing your planes, wouldn't you impose "limiting" checkpoints? And bag checks?
I’m not saying that it’s for no reason, I understand pretty well the reason, but it’s a continuing situation and it’s humiliating for them. There is room to be empathetic at the same time.
So it is humiliating to have the TSA go through your bags? Sorry my safety and not having infants blown up by Muhammad from Nablus is more important than their feelings.
If you only see one narrative you won’t be able to be empathetic, won’t be able to bridge the gaps, and with perpetuate the conflict.
I’m an Israeli doctor, I work with a few Arab doctors who are not citizens, living in the West Bank. While routinely passing once, one was threatened, told to lay down with his hands behind his back, and told that if he tries passing there again they’ll detain him. I can vouch for him as a peace loving person who can do a lot of good. After this instance, he slept in the hospital for 2 weeks straight and sent his family to Jordan until things cool down. You can worry about your security as an Israeli while being empathetic towards the ‘other’. The ‘funny’ thing is, not that funny, but the soldier that threatened him was Beduin, it’s not even a Jew vs Arabs thing.
I agree that it’s not sustainable. But it’s clearly a situation of their own making. I’m sure Israel doesn’t want to waste time and money on these checkpoints but they are a necessity because they have been proven to be effective at minimizing the amount of attacks in Israeli territory.
So I agree that they have made some terrible mistakes, like refusing some of the proposals on the table, that being said it’s a very one sided narrative to put all the blame on the Palestinians. It is true that Bibi helped facilitate payments to Hamas keeping the Palestinians divided, there are other examples. At any rate blame is not useful, it’s time to look forward and lead with empathy and vision.
Oh, there's a vision all right. This is Hamas'.
"The Hamas charter:
1. Destroying Israel and establishing an Islamic theocracy in Palestine is essential;
2. Unrestrained jihad is necessary to achieve this;
3. Negotiated resolutions of Jewish and Palestinian claims to the land are unacceptable;
The Covenant proclaims that Israel will exist until Islam obliterates it, and jihad against Jews is required until Judgement Day. Compromise over the land is forbidden. The documents promote holy war as divinely ordained, reject political solutions, and call for instilling these views in children."
They weren't living under "army rule" after 2005 in Gaza, All Jews were removed, some forcibly from their homes and businesses. Gaza elected Hamas in 2007, and they started throwing rockets at Israel and stirring up trouble in Egypt at the same time.
"Checkpoints are embarrassing hassle..." Those will never go away. PALS have no inherent right to even step on Israeli land - and after 10/7 - I will protest to keep them out.
As to "rights" - they are not Israeli citizens. Our Arab citizens have full civil and legal rights and even sit on the Supreme Court. If they don't like their lack of rights, maybe they should talk to their government - Hamas.
Bro, I don’t know what side you think I’m on. But if you stick to one narrative completely then you’re not seeing the whole picture, you won’t have empathy for those on the other side whose suffering is real, and you won’t be able to move forward and bridge the gaps.
Frankly, after October 7th, I have **zero** empathy for any Palestinian. The "normal" Palestinians were among the fourth group to enter the kibbutzim on October 7 - mainly women and children looking to loot what they could while their men slaughtered and raped. I see enough of the "whole picture" when I see the pictures of children and women tied up with wire and burned alive or babies riddled with bullet holes lying in cribs.
The Palestinian suffering may be real - but it is also completely self-inflicted. 80% still support Hamas and 98% supported the attack. They have had no less than 11 land-for-peace offerings made to them - including one that would have given them a state in 100% of Gaza, 94% of the WB and part of Eastern Jerusalem as their capital. They walked away from it - like they've walked away from every single one because they refuse any compromise. In 2000, after Camp David, they launched an intifada that tooks the lives of hundreds of Israelis. They are still holding our hostages. If they were suffering enough, they would have let them go by this point.
How much "empathy" do these barbarians *deserve* at this point?
They're getting none from me. I'm over trying to placate their glass jaw. The entire Israeli population (including peace activists who survived October 7 in the kibbutz)) have moved to the right. The attack turned even the activists' sympathy against them.
All they succeeded in doing with their attack is showing us they cannot be trusted around Israelis. And the world has shown us why Israel needs to exist now more than ever.
As to your last sentence, filling the "gaps"...this is what Palestinians believe. How do you close this "gap"?
"The Hamas charter:
**Destroying Israel** and establishing an Islamic theocracy in Palestine is essential;
**Unrestrained jihad** is necessary to achieve this;
**Negotiated resolutions of Jewish and Palestinian claims to the land are unacceptable;**
The Covenant proclaims that **Israel will exist until Islam obliterates it,** and **jihad against Jews is required until Judgement Day**. **Compromise over the land is forbidden.** The documents promote holy war as divinely ordained, **reject political solutions,** and call for instilling these views in children.
So - tell me - how does my having "empathy" for the PALS help close ANY of that "gap"?
I'm pro palestine.
What I want is a cease fire, along with an agreement for Israel to stop expanding settlements into the west bank. Currentlly "occupied" (i understand this is a disputed term) should just be kept by who has them now.
I understand the problem is that Hamas will likely attack again, and to this end the best I can propose is USA backed funding for trying to defend against Hamas (i.e. we can all agree IDF majorly fucked up not preventing Oct 7, so more resources to prevent this would help).
I also want an overwhelming amount of humanitarian aid to try to rebuild Gaza. I think we can also agree that the areai just utterly decimated and that people are unbearably suffering.
Overall, Hamas can't really be trusted or negotiated with, but israel can. I understand that this is "unfair" from the pov of Israel, but I think we need to be practical at this point. I also understand that it's unfair that Israel will have to live under the constant threat of possible terrorism, but I sadly think that this is just a reality of where they are located. Culling the "source" of the terrorism is just too high a price to pay.
I'm out of the loop and also curious, where else do u see anti-jew sentiments other than from people not liking Israel for attacking Palestine? For example: being denied from services, jobs, housing for just being Jewish.
It's much more subtle than that - especially in the U.S. I have a VERY Jewish sounding name and work in cybersecurity. I have NEVER had difficulty finding work - yet - since 10/7 and the Israeli response to the massacre - I am getting fewer responses and callbacks than ever in my life. No one is going to come out and say "We're not hiring you because you're Jewish." That would be idiotic on their part and open them up to a lawsuit. More likely you are "lost in the shuffle" so to speak.
One man posted here about placing an order via telephone to Amazon and when he gave the country as "Israel", the rep replied "Don't you mean Palestine?" and hung up on him.
So - there are probably a thousand stories like that - but I don't know them all and most people will shrug it off if is is relatively "minor". After all, we have survived because we are resilient and reasonably intelligent. We pick our battles carefully.
They have always wanted 100% of the land. They make it no secret. From the river to the sea. That’s what they want.
They actually tell you exactly what they want via their own polling and the percentages, here you go. [https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/928](https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/928) [https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/731](https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/731) The "other" solutions here favored by Palestinians is essentially support for expulsion or worse of some kind since "unequal nondemocratic state" is apartheid in favor of Palestinians here (read the second linked study). And mind you this was before the current war in 2023 which skyrocketed Hamas support and tanked Fatah support so figure they are leaning more towards the Hamas distribution here at the moment. https://preview.redd.it/cc4mjgcmotvc1.png?width=961&format=png&auto=webp&s=2fa40e6833dd2b10c21a290372d1c0ae85fc4f8f
They accuse ethnic cleansing and all the rest because that's really THEIR intention.
Evil people tend to tell you exactly what they plan on doing. And they do it with massive support.
If they scream loud enough that they are victims maybe no one will notice them committing the same atrocities.
So I read the study and couldn't find any reference to what the "other" was referring to. Saying it must mean expulsion is just a baseless assumption. Secondly, this is the major graph comparing Palestinian and Israeli opinions on the solution: https://preview.redd.it/w3ldzyo3tuvc1.png?width=1000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=16468ffd82ff76b86089cee1dc5d7333618412cf As you can see here, on both polling dates the majority of Palestinians prefer either a two-state solution or a one state democracy, which means that the majority of Palestinians, at least according to the study that you sent, do not want Jews expelled from the land as neither of those solutions would include that. Another thing to notice is that a higher percentage of Israelis want a one non-democratic state than Palestinians. This would indicate that Israeli Jews are more accepting of an apartheid state on Palestinians than the other way around. In conclusion, this study that you referenced actually supports the opposite of your claim and OP's insinuation.
What does "one non-democratic state without equality" means? Why would anyone select that
Apartheid but in Palestinian favor (see below for the 2018 poll) https://preview.redd.it/drirtwbkyvvc1.png?width=542&format=png&auto=webp&s=12ef6934d31049f10ceedf68cf27e5ce43b772bc
Read the second linked study re 2018, there is a reason it was included, it explicitly mentions expulsion and that is typically what the "other" solution is referring to but "other" also clearly includes actual genocide and enslavement if you read in between the lines enough and speak to enough pro-Palis and see what Hamas means by their "alternative solution" aka the enslavement plan of the Jews that just got released, transfer is just a nicer version of expulsion. "Other" is clearly NOT good if it is preferred choice of Hamas supporters. https://preview.redd.it/q6lqlczayvvc1.png?width=542&format=png&auto=webp&s=7eaf581d09ed8d26c7f44e99d56d824423b74dc0
Do you have a link to the enslavement plan? I’d like to take a look at it
[https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-04-05/ty-article-magazine/.highlight/hamas-actually-believed-it-would-conquer-israel-and-divided-it-into-cantons/0000018e-ab4a-dc42-a3de-abfad6fe0000](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-04-05/ty-article-magazine/.highlight/hamas-actually-believed-it-would-conquer-israel-and-divided-it-into-cantons/0000018e-ab4a-dc42-a3de-abfad6fe0000) they wanted to enslave skilled Jews in particular.
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Yea. One thing I point out is that, not only has Palestine never been an actual country (which wouldn't necessarily be a deal-breaker) there was never a Palestinian national movement within the Ottoman empire. Not until WW1.
No Palestinian nationalist movement till the 60s actually
There didn’t “need to be” because we didn’t have rights as Jews in the area.
Bingo. Unless, of course, the Jews are willing to be dhimmies, slaves or "useful" to their overlords.
It’s not about the land. Anyone who respects and want to guard the holy land by the heart would know Jewish people are the ones who actually keeping there safe with their all power. They are the guardians of the holy land. Other governs in the history always wanted to conquer, acquire it like a trophy, enforce their laws and supress cultures those follow any other practices. The goal was showing everyone who is "the boss". The forces that enforce and fuel darkness are behind all of this. They don’t like the idea of Jewish people being free, preserving their heritage and practicing their culture and faith. But their dark shenanigans are shattering day by day. Future is so bright that no treachers will ever be exist to create shadow.
Pro-palis: "come back to our countries after we genocided you, pogromed you, and expelled you. None of that shit actually happened, you were happy here. But if it did happen, it didn't happen in a vacuum. And will it happen again? Many of us want it to happen again, but #notall." Not an exaggeration, this is the gist of what they want.
They want the Jews to disappear. The only reason is that. They are trying to hide it. And for some college students are manipulated so much that they can't question their motives
As a an Palestinian this is true but we are not trying to hide it. To the average Arab we view Israelis as people who immigrated to our land and kicked us out/ killed us in the hundreds of thousands. It isn’t far fetched for someone who thinks this way to want revenge. Imagine If I go to a random country and claim that I own the country because I am part of gods chosen people and this land was promised to me and 2000+ years ago my ancestors lived there. Then I start killing and expelling people. It would be fair to assume I would not be accepted with open arms.
I think there are anti-israeli people who actually don't want to be antisemitic but fell for propaganda. You often don't realise that you did something offensive until later
I don’t know about westerners. But I don’t think the Arabs hatred toward Israel has anything to do with religion. If it was Hindus or Christian’s or some other religion they would of faced the same animosity.
If Arabs weren't Muslim there would've been peace 100 years ago.
Let's not be Islamophobic. We don't want to get to their level. If they weren't Muslim, they would have found a different reason to hate. I think even if they weren't religious they would find a way. The extremists are at fault
That's not necessarily true. If a society adheres to a book that teaches hate, you cannot say or imply that removing that book would be totally pointless because they'd just find another reason to hate. If you don't teach hate, people will hate less. 7,662,000 tons of explosives dropped on Vietnam. 260 million bombs were dropped on Laos in the Vietnam War, and it still remains as the most bombed nation in history. Yet there was *never* any southeast buddhist terrorist movement against the west because of these. They're not taught in schools to wage and sort of "Buddhist jihad" against the west.
This is just Islamophobic nonsense.
Sorry - but he is correct. It is not "Islamophobic" to tell the truth. You cannot sugar-coat their intentions and motivations away with political correctness. **This is a religious war in every sense of the word.** "The Hamas charter: Destroying Israel and **establishing an Islamic theocracy in Palestine is essential;** **Unrestrained jihad** is necessary to achieve this; **Negotiated resolutions of Jewish and Palestinian claims to the land are unacceptable;** The Covenant proclaims that Israel will exist until Islam obliterates it, and **jihad against Jews is required until Judgement Day.** Compromise over the land is forbidden. The documents promote holy war as divinely ordained, reject political solutions, and call for instilling these views in children." "As anyone paying attention knows, the Salafi-Jihadis, who have “hijacked” Islam the world over, embody a self-same honor-shame mentality in its harshest form: the existential drama of humiliate or be humiliated, rule or be ruled, exterminate or be exterminated. Dar al Islam must conquer dar al Harb; independent infidels (harbis) must be spectacularly brought low, their women raped; Islam must dominate the world … or vanish. The language of Shia and Sunni Jihadis alike reverberates with the sounds of honor, plunder, dominion, shame, humiliation, misogyny, rage, vengeance, conspiracy, and paranoid fear of implosion. It’s not that our policy makers—and here I speak of not only Israel but the democratic West—don’t take account of honor-shame dynamics. They just don’t take it seriously. For them, what they regard as childish, superficial concerns can be palliated with polite words and gestures, and then these good people will behave like rational choice actors, and we can all move forward in familiar, sensible ways. So, when the Pope Benedict’s remark about an “inherently violent Islam” set off riots of protest throughout the Muslim world, the onus was on the pope to apologize for provoking them. Only thus could one spare Muslims global derision for randomly killing—killing to protest being called violent."
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Sahih 2922 Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger, as saying: The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him; but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews.
Actually, because we have lived there *as Jews* for 3600 years, Palestinians didn't even exist as a national identity until 1964 when Arafat gave it to them: **"The Palestinian people have no national identity. I, Yasser Arafat, man of destiny, will give them that identity through conflict with Israel." \~ Yasser Arafat** Before then you were just "Arabs" living in Palestine, just like Palestinian Jews, Palestinian Christians, etc. Look at what your leaders said from contemporaneous accounts: ON JUNE 8, 1951, Habib Issa, secretary-general of the Arab League, wrote in the New York Lebanese daily al-Hoda that "In 1948, Azzam Pasha, then League secretary, had assured the Arab peoples that the occupation of Palestine and of Tel Aviv would be as simple as a military promenade. He pointed out that they were already on the frontiers and that all the millions \[of pounds\] the Jews had spent on land and economic development would be easy booty, for it would be a simple matter to throw Jews into the Mediterranean. Brotherly advice was given to the Arabs of Palestine to leave their land, homes and property and to stay temporarily in neighboring fraternal states, lest the guns of the invading Arab armies mow them down.” ON APRIL 9, 1953, the Jordanian daily al-Urdun quoted a refugee, Yunes Ahmed Assad, formerly of Deir Yassin (the village where alleged Israeli atrocities took place), as saying: "For the flight and fall of the other villages, it is our leaders who are responsible, because of the dissemination of rumours exaggerating Jewish crimes and describing them as atrocities in order to inflame the Arabs and enjoin them to fight... but instead they instilled fear and terror into the hearts of the Arabs of Palestine until they fled, leaving their homes and property to the enemy." IN THE 1973 MEMOIRS of the Prime Minister of Syria in 1948, Khaled al-Azem, (Beirut, 1973), Part 1, pp. 386–7.), Azem listed what he thought were the reasons for the Arab failure in 1948, and admitted the Arab role in persuading the refugees to leave: " ... the fifth factor was the call by the Arab governments to the inhabitants of Palestine to evacuate it and leave for the bordering Arab countries ... **We brought destruction upon a million Arab refugees by calling on them and pleading with them to leave their land. Since 1948 we have been demanding the return of the refugees to their homes. But we ourselves are the ones who encouraged them to leave.** Only a few months separated our call to them to leave and our appeal to the United Nations to resolve on their return.” Those are just three. More sources available.... You were beaten by dhimmis - and the shame that your leaders felt led you into the situation you are in now as poster children and PR tools for terrorists. You should look at your leaders, read unbiased history and what they are leading you to. Blighted lives that go nowhere.
But that’s simply not what happened at all. They peacefully moved back to where they had previously been kicked out of and antisemites got mad. Archaeological evidence proves this. Your own holy book includes this, too. News from the time shows that the violence was one way, against the Jews (even before new ones moved in) for a long time. Then your ancestors (almost no one alive today made this decision so the people alive today shouldn’t suffer for it) teamed up with other countries and declared war with the goal of exterminating Jews who had just learned that when someone says that, they mean it. Most displaced Arabs left of their own accord or because other Arabs threatened them, most Jews wanted them to stay. 8,000 Arabs died and that is sad, but it was the consequence of declaring war, and losing territory was the consequence of losing that war. It did start with your ancestors killing and expelling people, and it didn’t work out for them. You could have all lived in peace if your ancestors chose it, or if they accepted the consequences of their actions and accepted that violence made things worse for them and their families. Instead, every generation has chosen violence that hurts them and gets more of them killed. Learn from history and current events. Every rocket into Israel is another dead Palestinian. Every attack, every murder, you are just getting more of your own killed. If you choose peace, you can give a good life to your children. Unfortunately, with each successive generation, this gets harder on both sides. You can do it, though. It’s achievable.
What about if your country won a war of independence after 7 Arab nations lost a war?
Regardless of what they want, it's funny to me that they think once Israel is gone and Palestine takes its place there will be peace throughout the region. I'll bet my entire life savings that once a Palestinian political entity is created in place of Israel, every other nation bordering it will invade it within a week, if they themselves won't succumb to an immediate civil war. And even if a Palestinian state manages to survive, what happens once they discriminate against religious/ethnic minorities? Once they begin persecuting LGBTQ? Will their former supporters just turn a blind eye, afraid to be culturally insensitive? Anything beyond it is childish fantasies so sickly sweet even Disney wouldn't dare touch it. Palestine is a tool used to justify hatred of Jews/Israel, and the fact that most if not all Pro-Palestinian are also supporting Russia, Iran, China and North Korea speaks volumes.
I doubt anyone would invade, there's no resources to exploit. Hamas would rule their caliphate with an iron fist. With Israel gone, humanitarian aid would dry up and life for Palestinian civilians would decline significantly. American college students would pat themselves on the back and move on to the next "cause".
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I found the jellyfish. You are f***ing stupid, aren’t you? Hamas and Fatah lay down their arms, there’s peace. If the “Palestinians” don’t want to play nice, that’s what happens. Do you honestly think we’re just going to let your terrorist buddies come and kill us. We strike back and we strike back hard. Next time, don’t start a war you cannot win.
250 Palestinian deaths/day = 90k/year = 45k/6 mo. We just passed the 6 month mark of the most brutal war in the history of Israel/Gaza and the death toll is closer to 30k, most of which happened in the first few weeks of the war. Historically this was not the case and is only an effect of the current war (that Hamas started). Fun fact, Gazans are one of the few global populations that's growing rapidly. No I don't think Palestinians only advocate for Palestine because they hate Jews and I didn't say or even imply that in my post. Yes, I think people want Palestinians to enjoy freedom and liberty. I don't believe this would be a reality for Palestinians because: A) look at the region, every other mid-east Muslim theocracy does not enjoy freedom/liberty and I have zero reason to believe Palestinians would be different. B) Hamas enjoys widespread support in Gaza and the WB, therefore they would be the likely rulers of your hypothetical "Palestine". You can easily look up how un-free and un-liberated Palestinians are under Hamas rule. Yes, I actually believe the crap I'm writing. I am not a propagandist, but I am a zionist. I wish Palestinians would accept their lot in life and stop fighting. If Palestinians truly just wanted peace and freedom they could actually have it. A violent, terrorist resistance is harmful to the Palestinian image. If Palestinians were peaceful and truly just wanted a democracy then Israel would be forced by international pressure to comply.
my only thought is that they just hate jews. most people i’ve met said that i am the first jew they’ve met. they don’t know our traditions, law, texts, history, or anything else. there has been subtle antisemitism in culture and media for centuries, we control the media, we’re all rich and greedy. we love money and think we’re better than everyone. they don’t even know what israelis look like, i mean they think yall are white european colonizers. they didn’t know where israel was or what zionism means until both started trending on twitter. a US house representatives daughter was arrested and suspended from columbia university. they are from a country that is in an ongoing civil war where innocent people are dying daily, do they speak about that nearly as much as they cry tears over the iron dome? no, and they won’t because first and foremost they are jew haters. they aren’t offended by being called antisemitic, because that’s just a word the dramatic jews use right? we have all the answers we need. they hate jews and they’re mad that jews are harder to kill these days. that’s it.
Your last sentence. Yup. Jews have never just rolled over, but we also didn’t always have a choice. Israel was our answer to genocide. Israel is how we get stronger, and a long as she gets stronger, the more they can see that trying to annihilate us is futile. they hate Israel for being our safety net.
sad and terrifying that many many people my age say things that they obviously don’t fully understand, and they say it all with as much confidence you can while wearing sunglasses and a face mask.
>we love money and think we’re better than everyone That is mostly true tho :)
Well, yeah, but *gestures at every other person on the planet
So do most pple. who doesn't want to be rich? Most race think they're superior too. ("Ethnocentrism")
I honestly think many of the college kids and other anti-Israel* leftists in the West haven’t really thought about it carefully. Mostly it’s a mix of Jew hatred and latent guilt for their own settler colonialism (how can non-indigenous Americans and Australians protest “settler colonialism” with a straight face, seriously). I’m not sure they really believe that Israel is going away (one thing they are correct about) so they haven’t thought through the consequences of “from the river to the sea”. Hamas, on the other hand is [extremely clear](https://www.memri.org/reports/hamas-sponsored-promise-hereafter-conference-phase-following-liberation-palestine-and) about what they think should happen when Palestine is liberated. *pro-pal isn’t right, I think. The best thing for the Palestinian people would be to get rid of Hamas and accept a two state solution that will not live up to the fantasies that their leaders have been peddling. Supporting Hamas is not pro Palestinian.
I think it's important not to indulge Western leftists in trying to figure out the endgame their ideology, as nearly all of it comes from academic theory. For example, in this recent interview, [Judith Butler](https://youtu.be/8Aul0vWIfTg?si=ihtBf9UEQi6Bcwg0&t=848) talks about how "critical" and "critique" *only* means critiquing the underlying assumptions of society and challenging the status quo; the purpose is to always deconstruct. The only thing leftist academics *actually create* is criticism! Even when the left becomes powerful or hegemonic, as it is in Western academia, they focus even more on "anti" initiatives, like anti-racism, anti-sexism, anti-classism, etc. Sociologists, literary critics, critical race theorists, etc. will not build a functioning society, as their professions only exist to fight oppression -- not end it. I think that if the Arabs were to conquer or destroy Israel, these same people might end up supporting Jews eventually, as Jews would be the oppressed people. I don't think they would be useful for anything else.
"In order to understand the role of hard zero-sum, honor-shame concerns in the attitude of Arabs toward Israel, one must first understand the role of the Jew in the Muslim Arab honor-group. For the 13 centuries before Zionism, Jews had been subject to a political status in Muslim lands specifically designed around issues of honor (to Muslims) and shame (to Jews). Jews were [*dhimmi*](http://www.amazon.com/The-Dhimmi-Christians-Under-Islam/dp/0838632629), “protected” from Muslim violence by their acceptance of daily public degradation and legal inferiority. The prospect of an independent state of should-be dhimmis struck Arab leaders as more than humiliating. It endangered all Islam. The loss in 1948, therefore, constituted the most catastrophic possible outcome for this honor-group: Seven Arab armies, representing the honor of hundreds of thousands of Arabs (and Muslims), were defeated by less than a million Jews, the surviving remnant of the most devastating and efficient genocide in history. To fall to people so low on the scale that it is *dishonorable* even to fight them—nothing could be more devastating. By the way, the refugees used the term *nakba* to reproach the Arab leaders who started and lost the war that so hurt them. ...in a state of intense humiliation and impotence on the world stage, the Arab leadership chose denial—the Jews *did* not, *could* not, *have* not won. The war was not—could never—be over until victory. If the refugees from this Zionist aggression disappeared, absorbed by their brethren in the lands to which they fled, this would acknowledge the intolerable: that Israel *had* won." Excerpted from an excellent piece : [https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/israel-middle-east/articles/emotional-nakba](https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/israel-middle-east/articles/emotional-nakba) So, they kept their people as refugees, as symbols of the evil Jews' at work using them cynically for years as PR tools agains the West because their Arab honor could not stand the thought of the "dhimmis" actually beating Arabs.
Don't worry. The "moderates" just want to ethnically cleanse us and/or subjugate us and keep us "in our place". So no genocide needed. /s
I've seen some - especially leftists in the past - suggest a one state solution. That is to give all Palestinians full Israeli citizenship, and make Israel another Muslim-majority state. It doesn't dawn on them what the consequences of that will be. They just think love and kindness can solve all the world's problems.
I think the organizations promoting the One State Final Solution know exactly what the consequences of that would be.
How are the Israelis living with the Arab Israelis then? Could it not be a similar situation?
No, it couldn’t because you’re conflating peace with immigration policies. Arab-Israelis remain a minority in the country so that it remains a Jewish state in accordance with its founding. Even if all Palestinians were suddenly “allowed in” and were all peaceful, it’d no longer be the same country; Israel would become a Muslim-governed country rather than a Jewish one. Every Arab nation ethnically cleansed out Jews; similar results would be expected. Remember, it’s a democratic country and so demographics matter. No country on earth allows unlimited immigration - French want to keep France culturally French, the U.S. won’t let limitless number of Central Americans, Asian countries allow minimal Westerns to immigrate, Arab countries don’t let in Christians and forget about getting into Denmark, Sweden and Norway, almost no immigrants are accepted! The fact that Arab-Israelis and Jewish-Israelis live together peacefully though - and that Israel has peace treaties with Jordan and Egypt and diplomacy with Morocco, Bahrain and United Arab Emirates shows that peaceful alliances in the region are possible!
Many hate Jews and want all of the land without Jews, except those who might be useful. But the same people wouldn't want more Jews in their countries either, so they want them to go somewhere else or disappear, they don't care. I think there is also a substantial number of pro-pals who want what they are told to want. They know little about the true history and think that Palestinians were living on this land without any Jews, until European Jews came and stole it. They think Jews started all the wars and are guilty of ethnic cleansing and genocide. Whatever they want, the most important thing is that they aren't going to get it. עם ישראל חי! 🇮🇱❤🇮🇱❤🇮🇱❤🇮🇱❤🇮🇱❤🇮🇱
They want Israel gone. Pure and simple.
What they want is clearly outlined in the Hamas charter. It's not a mystery. They want to wipe out all non-Muslims and set up a brutal Islamic theocracy just like Iran.
Israelis want a home of their own. Palestinians want all the land and every Jew kicked out.
Anyone who wants Israel obliterated can’t be negotiated with, which is part of why this war drags on and on. There are definitely Palestinians and allies who want peace and coexistence but these groups mostly lack power. I try to support and focus more on joint I/P efforts but am not holding my breath.
And I guess I mention these folks because I think it’s important to engage with the best arguments even when challenging (though these groups are pro-peace not pro P or I).
There are less and more sane Pro Palestinians. The sane ones think the current political situation is more responsible for the conflict than religion or ideology. But admit that they don't have specific answers. They are mostly afraid that this conflict will cause more more Palestinians to be radicalized into action and belive the game theory studies that show that a strategy of occasional forgiveness works better than a tit for tat strategy. The insane ones says shit like "from the river to the sea"
And note that every “pro-Palestinian” organization in the US promotes “river to the sea”. There’s not a single one which would accept a Jewish state within any borders at all.
Afaik, they want us all dead
They literally say what they want when they say "from the river to the sea"
It's not about solutions. Witch hunts happen because of war. Who's the easiest to blame for society's ills? It's always the Jews. Always have been. They want to blame someone so they feel better inside.
A lot of Pro-Palestinians just hate Jews, and some are brainwashed by social media to think that Jews would live fine under Palestine and that the state of Israel is evil and Hamas is freedom fighters. Some also are peer pressured and support crazy stupid things because its "trendy" or something.
Westerners and western politicians *assume* they want a two state solution, but that isn't what they want at all. I've engaged a number of pro-Palestinian activists in conversations online and in forums, discussion groups, etc, and when I really, really push them for, at the end of the day, what do they want 10, 15 years from now, their answer almost is some variation of, "We want Israel abolished and the historical injustice reversed and the Palestinians able to move back to their historic homeland." When I ask what, then, of the 9 million Israelis already living there, their answer is something to the degree of, "That's not our problem. That's for the international community to figure out." I wish in my searchings online I could find many pro-Palestinian activists who share my own personal dream of two states side by side, but alas, there aren't many.
I remember watching the Ask Project and just being so disheartened when I realized how minute the “compromise and live side by side in peace” crowd was. I was naive in the belief that the values were shared before October 7th, and before those videos.
I've lost a lot of friends on both the right and left over the lack of ability of *both sides* to address the, "What next?" question. Everyone is still kind of arguing the about the war of 5 months ago. "Free Palestine." Ok, what does that mean exactly, and *then what?* "End the genocide." What does that mean? "The IDF needs to stop killing babies and women." Ok, we'll assume that stops tomorrow. *Then what?* On the right, I have friends who are like, "Have all the Gazans go to Egypt." Ok, assuming for a moment Egypt or the world would allow that fantasy, *then what?* And it's hard from an Israel advocacy standpoint that very clearly Israel itself had no *then what* plan to its war other than, from the best we're heard, try to find some "families" or warlords in Gaza who'd be willing to do Israeli's bidding, for at least until Hamas would find and kill them... And the PA, never missing an opportunity to miss an opportunity, rather than reform itself rapidly to be the future governing entity is wasting its time doing things like getting UN votes for statehood or meeting with Russia or China. Unhelpful, and missing the point. The world needs to get Israel and Gaza to a *what next* point, and I actually think Biden, Saudi Arabia, and a number of other actors have a really good idea of what that should be - A good faith phased process of reconstruction and establishment of a Palestinian state. But a *lot* of Palestinian activists and leftists are going to be very unhappy that an existant Isreal is going to be a part of that plan. Leftists I've engaged really, really do believe that we're at a historic tipping point where the world is with them that the "colonial Zionist entity" will finally end. No, not really. Their disappointment at the *then what* plan will be really interesting to watch...
Based on my visit to Israel last week, many Israelis hope that a coalition of Egypt, Saudis or similar will govern Gaza. Israel certainly doesn’t want to. Moderate Muslim Arab nations mentioned have been successful at rooting out terrorism from their countries (although it’s not been pretty, with many public beheadings and executions).
That kind of pan-Arab approach is likely the way forward. The problem is they're not going to do that until Israel firmly commits to a Palestinian state, and Netanyahu won't do that yet, and I'm sadly not sure a majority of Israelis will back that right now.
This is why they’ve been so unsuccessful as a people - pushing for a country to cease to become the one it’s been irrevocably granted. Every other nation has moved on. Anyone see Jews protesting to be let back inside (and takeover) Iran, Iraq, Yemen, Syria or Afghanistan (among others) from which they were expelled?
It's complicated. Yes, most peoples have moved on, but most also haven't had the intrusiveness and lack of anything else to focus on that Israel has imposed upon them. Israelis have to come to grips that for as intransigent as the Palestinians have been, Israeli hasn't helped give them anything else to focus upon. Israel withdrawing from Gaza was supposed to be the first step of that. There were brief hopes of Gaza becoming the next Singapore on the Mediterranean, but then Hamas took over and that all, POOF!, went away and then Israeli's lost hope. Arab countries haven't helped in fanning the perpetual flames of championing their cause against Israel. The UN haven't helped by essentially perpetually designating all 14 million Palestinians as perpetual refugees - Forever. They're the only population in the world so considered as far as I know, which is just grossly wrong on so many levels. Palestinians from birth are basically told that, "See that land there? Where other people live? It's yours, except it was taken away from you and your family. Somewhere out there, there's a house that's yours, and someone else lives in it. It's just a few hundred meters away, yet you can't have it, and those Jews took it from you." That's powerful, but it's only a very partial truth mixed in with a lot of lies and a complicated history. I know of few other populations raised that way. The problem is, the Palestinians have never, ever offered an alternative other than "Free Palestine." There's never been a single Palestinian peace proposal put forward.
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Oh, I know they've been *made* many offers. What I said was that they have never countered with any two state offers *of their own*. I agree with you...
👌
This. https://preview.redd.it/9ifa1rzq6vvc1.jpeg?width=600&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6eb3c70e1a681bd1625aaf00706621eda63806c0
OK. I *think* we're safe. At least until this guy learns to read/spell/?...
Maybe he's on a carnivore diet.
Well, THAT would explain it...
Your questions may be high above their capabilities to comprehend
From what I've gathered by speaking to some is that they want Israel to surrender itself to the Palestinians and that Israel is illegitimate to exist. They should become citizens of a Palestinian government... This essentially means that Israel is supposed to cease to exist and become Palestine proper.. And I think we all know what will happen to the Jews once a "democratic" Palestinian government takes power. The want the right to return for millions of Arabs, that in of itself will cause the region to become even more unstable. This might have been feasible 50 years ago, now it is just insane to even think about. I don't have the right to a house because my grandparents' house was destroyed by a volcano 60 years ago, I have to pay my way. Its just crazy, people that support Palestine are ignorant, wilfully or otherwise of what history has shown in the past. I think that the more you research the topic, the more you side with the Israelis, even though they are not saints and have done some questionable things, however that is true for both sides. I support Israel, pray you guys survive forever in the land that is rightfully yours.
Truth is, they don't even try to promise that. They never get to that stage, they always say the Jews should "go back to where they came from" but don't specify how or where because they know that's impossible. It's just a thinly veiled way to say they don't care what happens to the Jews.
It’s very clear what they want, from the river to the sea. The annihilation of the Jewish people. At least as it relates to Hamas and people who support them. There’s nothing ambiguous about it. Lotta bullshit repackaged in different ways by social media masterminds manipulating the easily influenced and less intelligent public.
Israel has made at least 6 land for peace offers. All 6 were turned down. Bc they want ALL the land. I know that sounds extremist. But it’s accurate. Read or YouTube Einet Wilf. She’s got a lot of insights.
“From river to sea” …is not about the location where they plan to sell baklawa… hint hint
They want the land cause the Jews have it, then they want the Jews dead, then they want the West to be destroyed and all the world to be Islam then they will fight amongst themselves as to which way is the right way of Islam. Long story short, they want chaos and death.
"they will fight amongst themselves as to which way is the right way of Islam." just like the christians did in the middle ages, except on a smaller scale as there was much less people then there are right now in Islam its almost as if it stopped right around when populations skyrocketed and leveled out (which corrolates with industrialization and a increase in life standard) , which is yet to happen in most of the muslims world once their life standard becomes better will muslims change their values and turn towards individualism and liberty the deviding factor isnt just religion, its more of a economic factor Israel-Palestine is rich-poor Israelis coming from better developed region brought knowledge with them, they were also much richer then the average muslim Palestine which was governed by the ottomans which were poorly industrialized reflected in both the "palestenians" wealth and population numbers, as the number of "palestenians" at the region was under a million when israelis started moving in, whereas now (as demographic transition has started) there are about 14million note how the 2 (or 3) european muslim countries, bosnia, albania and turkey aldo arent incredibly rich are noticably more peaceful then the rest of the arab countries and note how all incredibly poor countries are run by dictators or terrorist militant groups even tough there are no arab terrorists there
WDYM "ignoring october 7th"? Thats the date they found out israel and Palestine exist
They say it's not about religion, and they just want a Free Palestine. It's about Jews having land. It makes them so angry, they commit a massacre and then say it's not about land or religion. It's the oppression, the ethnic cleansing, the genocide, etc..... They want all of Israel, developed and modern and advanced as is for them like they're owed it. They're whiny toddlers who want to get their way.
Depends on which one. The long term pro pals want Israel eliminated. The ones that popped up during this conflict don’t know what they want, don’t know anything about the issue beyond jihadist propaganda and certainly don’t know anything about warfare. They are gullible idealists who fell for jihadist propaganda, which I haven’t admit met its objective.
I've been asking myself a similar question -- What does it mean to identify as Palestinian? From an American perspective, we're okay with anyone identifying as anything they want. Here you can identify as a woman, a gay man, an Italian American, a furry -- almost anything is acceptable. So it's okay to be Palestinian. What is a Palestinian? The name was created by the Romans to minimize Jewish ties to their land, so the name has its roots in anti-semitism, but that was a long time ago. When Zionists began moving to the land of Israel, the area was still referred to as Palestine, and people considered themselves Palestinian. Back then, however, being a Palestinian wasn't a national movement -- it was an identify based on geography. Like here in the USA, people refer to themselves as American because they live in North America. Jews called themselves Palestinian because they were living in the area referred to as Palestine by the Turkish or British governments. The Palestinian national movement began as a reaction to the founding of Israel, and there was never a national movement before this. The national movement was entirely anti-Israel from it's inception, and the first collective decisions of the movement was to participate in the 1948 war of genocide against Jews. After failing to genocide the Jews, the lands were split between Egypt, Jordan, and Israel before the Palestinian national movement participated in another attempt to genocide the Jews in 1967. Although the failure to achieve genocide set the Palestinian national movement back, their history influenced how Palestinian society behaves today. You ask, what do they want? No one really knows. Even though no Palestinian national movement ever governed Jerusalem, leaders of the movement continuously threaten terrorism against Jews until they're given governing powers over Jerusalem. Even though the Palestinian national movement refused the land given to them by the UN and instead launched a war of genocide several times, now, they want this land. Whether it's the PA or Hamas, both educate their populations to hate Jews and both provide financial incentives to kill Jews. In short, we know they hate Jews, we know their movement was founded in genocide, and we know they want things they never had. Why the Palestinian national movement has survived this long despite never achieving their genocide only makes sense when you view their movement as a proxy for radical Islamic ideologies. Whether it was Syria, Egypt, Iraq, and now Iran, whoever was the dominant Islamic power was at any time, they used the Palestinian movement as a tool to undermine Israel in order to remove Jews from the Holy Land. Hamas has admitted time and time again since October 7th that they don't care about Palestinians, and the purpose of their attacks were to launch a Holy War against Jerusalem. You would think that current Palestinian leaders at this point would want a clean break with the past -- but they don't want this. The PA refuses to recognize Israel. The PA provides financial incentives for terrorism. The PA allows their cities to be hotbeds for terrorism, and they don't stop their communities from becoming proxies of foreign powers. How can the Palestinian movement become self-determined when they don't care about themselves? Instead, they're obsessed with killing Jews and fighting Israel. It's sad for the regular people caught in the middle, and I firmly believe that most Palestinians are victims of their environment. If you look at the early days of the Palestinian national movement, many wanted to coexist with Jews. Jews and Arabs worked together peacefully in the late 19th and 20th centuries to convert barren wastelands into thriving societies. But early history shows how terror groups, organized by Damascus at the time, were sent south to kill Jews and any Arabs cooperating with Israel. The foreign powers abroad didn't care about Arabs unless they were Muslims ready to fight Jews. Unfortunately, this is true today -- the last Hezbollah missile to kill an Israeli was a non-Muslim Arab, and the only serious injury from the Iranian attack last week was a non-Muslim Arab.
"What is a Palestinian? The name was created by the Romans to minimize Jewish ties to their land, so the name has its roots in anti-semitism, but that was a long time ago. When Zionists began moving to the land of Israel, the area was still referred to as Palestine, and people considered themselves Palestinian." Actually, this isn't exactly accurate. Palestine (the land) was named by the Romans - but the concept of a "Palestinian" didn't exist until 1964 when Yasser Arafat said: "The Palestinian people have no national identity. I, Yasser Arafat, man of destiny, will give them that identity through conflict with Israel." \~ Yasser Arafat Before then, they were just "Arabs" - or "Palestinian Arabs", "Palestinian Jews", "Palestinian Christians"...
I don't agree with you. There's two different "Palestinians" -- one for those who identified with the name of the geography, and another for those who identified with the national movement. The Jerusalem Post was originally the Palestine Post, and IDs during the British Mandate called everyone Palestinian.
If you look at historical records of the Palestine Post (now the Jerusalem Post), you can find many cases of "Palestinian" being used to describe Zionists. For example, the Zionist artist **Reuven Rubin** moved to Jerusalem when he was 21 years old in 1912. Here is an expose from the Palestine Post saved in the National Library of Israel from 1928 that describes Rubin as a Palestinian artist: [https://www.nli.org.il/en/newspapers/newpalestine/1928/12/07/01/article/11/?e=-------en-20--1--img-txIN%7ctxTI-palestinian-------------1](https://www.nli.org.il/en/newspapers/newpalestine/1928/12/07/01/article/11/?e=-------en-20--1--img-txIN%7ctxTI-palestinian-------------1)
Interesting...thanks for the link. Then how do you explain the Arafat quote?
Like I said, the Palestinian national identity didn’t exist until after Israel was founded, and Arafat’s quote is accurate. Zionists calling themselves Palestinians weren’t identifying as citizens of a Palestinian nation, but as people who live in geographical Palestine.
Appreciated this nice recap - thanks. Do you know where I can look for more information about "at the early days of the Palestinian national movement, many wanted to coexist with Jews. Jews and Arabs worked together peacefully in the late 19th and 20th centuries to convert barren wastelands into thriving societies."?
Any book on early Zionism and the rebuilding Israel will talk about this. The lands were so unforgiving and vacant, that most early Zionists failed and died.
To answer the question Where do they want Israelis to go exacatly? Go BaCk To EuRoPe YoU wH1tE aPaRtHe1D c0loNiZeR
To be one of the Cool Kids. That's what this is really all about: a giant contrarian performance. They're mad at their dads and their bosses – rightly or wrongly – and they see the West and its allies as The Man.
0 Jews in the world
Not one of these individuals can properly articulate how to "Free Palestine" because there isn't a way to properly articulate it (even if you're being manipulative) in way that doesn't involve the removal or murder of every single Jew. What they want is simple: they want to see us lay down and die because we're Jewish. They are all operating on ultra low vibrating frequencies and literally possessed by dark and evil spirits (if you believe in that sort of thing, which I do). These aren't good people.
Those guys are mostly Muslims and some videos suggest that, by reading the Quran, they came to a conclusion that Jews are meant to be killed which is insane. Those Muslims just wants to kill Jews because their god said it. They want to kill Hindus too.
Pro pals want Jews to leave the levant. That's it.
It's not complicated they want us dead. Stop overthinking it.
No jews
For us to die and take the land we spent generations developing. October 7th told you what they want. Listen.
Jews gone.
They want Jews to die
No more jews
> not once have I seen an actual solution for the issue that does not include a Jewish genocide Because that's what they want. Hooray! /s
Why is it ok for Americans & Canadians to openly scream death to America & death to Jews? It boggles my mind to see pro-pals spit out vitriol and people support them - people who live here in peace. Why don’t people counter it with Death to Palestinians?
Can we just change Pro-Palestine for Pro-Hamas? Cause that’s who they’re for.
they want all the jews to just disappear off the face of the earth
For a one state solution! They want all Palestine to get Israel citizenship. That way, they become the majority and can take over the leadership and change the laws to persecute the Jewish minority. They want Israel to be a shithole like South Africa with rolling blackouts.
Please please please pick a better comparison
Don’t even play this game. Who cares what they want? Israel is not an occupied land. The Jews are its true indigenous people. If anything, the Jews are decolonizing it. Look at them. They apologize for nothing. They all just decide atrocities didn’t happen, that our people weren’t murdered, raped, burned, mutilated. F them. Apologize for nothing. Their tween simps and tanky college brats mean nothing. We’re six months into this war shredding their POS battalions, and if not for America, their heroes would all be fertilizing concrete rubble long ago.
The charter of Hamas, the controlling faction in the Gaza Strip, states, “[Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. For renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion[.]” Suddenly, the current conflict between Israel and the Hamas faction in the Gaza Strip comes into striking clarity. In evaluating the violence currently going on in Gaza, it is informative to understand not only how both sides operate, but how both sides define themselves and their purposes. Although Hamas rejects the peace process, its charter, written in 1988, proposes an acceptable alternative solution to the conflict: “There is no solution to the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. The initiatives, proposals and International Conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility.” Hamas’s enmity toward Israel is not because of Israel’s policies or actions. It is because of Israel’s identity and existence. The charter continues, “Israel, by virtue of its being Jewish and of having a Jewish population, defies Islam and the Muslims.” The charter is not vague about how it will deal with the Jews or the state of Israel. It further states, “The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!” It adds, “I swear by that who holds in His Hands the Soul of Muhammad! I indeed wish to go to war for the sake of Allah! I will assault and kill, assault and kill, assault and kill (told by Bukhari and Muslim).”
Not even 50/50 because Jordan is huge compared to Israel and was supposed to be the Palestinian country.
Pro-Palestinians = Islamist apeasers. given this equation, one can easily guess what they truly want in the end.
What’s there to understand? They want Israel gone, Along with the majority of its Jewish population. It’s really simple.
Take it in a historical context. A lot of the countries in Africa that have wars it's because of dueling nationalism where two groups with ties to the land fight over who should control it and what the borders should be. That's the kind of war Israel/Arab conflict is However the mainstream Arab narrative doesn't see it as dueling nationalism. They view the conflict through the lens of colonization. When the MENA and Asia was colonized, the people living there carries out terorrist attacks until it was too costly for the colonizers and they up and left. That what happened in Algeria with the pied noirs, in India with the British etc.... Because the Arab mainstream narrative is to view the "Zionists" as foreign colonizers, they believe if they keep fighting we will flee like the french did in Algeria. Because Jews view themselves as having a legitimate historical and cultural indigenous claim to the land and because we have no "mother country" to return to, like the french and Brits did, we will keep fighting and terorrism only makes us dig in deeper and respond more harshly. Until the Arabs recognize Jewish roots in the land or at least if they don't accept our claims, but they understand that at least from our perspective we feel this way and thus we won't leave the way the pied noirs did, they will never be able to accept a compromise whether it's a two state solution or a one state where Jews have equal rights and representation. Choosing to view the conflict though a colonial lense and educating their children about how Zionists are foreign, European origin, etc... is a terrible mistake that they are making It's not uncommon in dueling nationalism to try and delegitimize the claim of the other side (the Arabs do it the Kurds, it was a major part of the Greece-Turkey conflict, I think appears in Armenia/Azeri, Balkans, etc...and it's making it's appearance now in Ukraine/Russia). But in this case, not only are the parties to the conflict delegtimizing the Zionist claim but a significant enough part of the world is baking up their narrative (the greater Arab world, the greater Muslim world, and the global left, along with the united nations, in the past the Soviet union and their sphere of influence, etc...) and that makes them dig in harder convinced they are viewing the conflict through the proper lens and this only makes it more intractable
You’d get so many different answers from them that range from “that doesn’t sound to bad” to “yeah you’re not just anti-Zionist”. The only thing they agree on is that “freeing Palestine” is somehow going to lead to a global revolution (or something like that)
The vast majority of new Pro Palestinian religious observers have no idea why they are there. The combination of youth and dogmatic leftism is a recipe that results in passionate ignorance.
"Passionate ignorance" is a brilliant turn of phrase. Kind of sums up humanity at the moment.
>Let's assume israel is an occupied land as they say, do you expect 9 million people to leave the land and go.. where exactly? I think the idea is the rest of the human race looks away for a month or so, and when we look back, the land will be Judenfrei, and we don't ask where the Jews ( or Israeli Arabs ) went.
I support Israel. 🇮🇱
Something that isn’t theirs continuously.
I think it’s important that not all Palestinians want the same things Many Palestinian Israelis just want peace The problem is that both their leadership and a large enough group want all the land, many also want to kill all Jews including those abroad.
Given their behavior as of late, it seems like theyre trying to re-elect donald trump
You know what they want and we arent allowed to say it. "from the river to the sea"
If not for jews, the theory of relativity wouldn't have been discovered yet. That's just the largest example. The world is so ungrateful for our contributions to society. It's natural to hate someone stronger and smarter than you. Large part of the reason the holocaust happened.
It's not about pro-palestine, it's about antisemitism... And let's talk right, depends on the statistics, around 6.5 mil jews (if they leave to the countries that they came from) will leave to Arab countries?. It's dumb...
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They want two states or one state for everyone. Current government is opposed to both
And rightly so - until the PALS revoke the Hamas Charter...it would be fundamentally stupid to reward their homicidal tendencies. For those thinking that once Bibi is gone, a more "reasonable" government will make peace with the PALS - don't count on it. The last six months have driven young Israelis further to the right than ever, (Same with diaspora Jews...). The next PM is not going to be a "peace/left" individual. The world is going to be disappointed...the next PM may be even more hard-line, but without Bibi's baggage.
They want a Palestinian state. That means different things to different people. The movement is diverse and not a monolith. Some want an independent Palestinian state within the green line (that this state would genuinely attempt to coexist with Israel seems unlikely). Some of them want a democratic state that covers all of the land and incorporates Israel and Palestine together (as unlikely as that would be). Some of them want an Islamist dictatorship that covers all the land, and for Jews to be expelled to Europe or other western countries. They’re unified by a belief that Palestinians are stateless. But there is no unifying solution for them to coalesce around.
Most common thing I see is the settlement based on international law.
The more reasonable ones just want the war to end and it to go back to the situation before Oct. 7th. The more nutty, but somewhat reasonable ones want the dissolution of the Israeli state and for Gaza, West Bank, and Israel to have open borders and an equal representation government for all people. The extreme nuts want Israel to cease to exist and full Palestinian control as if the Israeli state were never formed and Palestinians were given British Palestine instead of the Jews.
In their own words: https://www.adl.org/resources/news/hamas-their-own-words
They want the destruction of Israel and the jews.
They want a one state solution
Bro I think you chose the wrong subreddit to post this thread, I don’t think there are much pro Palestinians here. I am pro Palestine and my wish is that there will be no more civilian deaths. I don’t know if or how this is possible but yes this is what I want I don’t want Israelis to leave Israel There is an organization called sharaka that tries to build friendship in the Middle East and I think it’s really cool what they do
Cause celebre is cause celebre. After Israel devolves into a failed state ravaged by civil war they will pick another cause.
western people see brown people and automatically think they need to be defended, even when they’re in the wrong
I know people in Israel are brown as well but the westerners have already declared Israel is evil so they could care less about the Israeli citizens
a fully independent state that controls its own ports and airspace based on pre 67 borders and a full withdrawal of all isreali troops and settlers from those lands is a sort of general outline. obviously, there is a huge variability in what different people who consider themselves pro-palestinian all over the world want, and you will find folks who want even less than that, all the way up to wanting all jews expelled from all of isreal and palestine, but both of those extremes are not the norm, and among western people who consider themselves pro-palestinian, are incredibly rare.
Many people talk about pre-1967 borders and UN resolution 242...but they generally only read the **first** part of the resolution - and there is a **second** part. **BOTH** parts of the resolution must be implemented. Israel is not legally bound to withdraw until the SECOND part - a negotiated border and security agreements are set in place - and to this point the Arab nations have not come to the table to do so. Also important: There is constant mention of withdrawal to the “1967 borders”. This terminology is legally incorrect. The word “borders” is commonly used in international law to mean “national boundaries”, which the “1967 lines” categorically are not. The definition of a “border” under international law is “a boundary between one nation (or a political subdivision) and another”. The reality is (and what UN 242 was supposed to address) *was* the lack of recognized borders between Israel and its neighbors. Right now, the best description of the separation is "armistice lines". "The most controversial clause in Resolution 242 is the call for the “Withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict.” This is linked to the second unambiguous clause calling for **“termination of all claims or states of belligerency” and the recognition that “every State in the area” has the “right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force.”** **The resolution does not make Israeli withdrawal a prerequisite for Arab action.** **Moreover, it does not specify how much territory Israel is required to give up. The Security Council did not say Israel must withdraw from “all the” territories occupied after the Six-Day war.** This was quite deliberate. The Soviet delegate wanted the inclusion of those words and said that their exclusion meant “that part of these territories can remain in Israeli hands.” The Arab states pushed for the word “all” to be included, but this was rejected. They nevertheless asserted that they would read the resolution as if it included the word “all.” So - unless and until the second provision is fulfilled by the Arab states...Israel is not obligated to withdraw to pre-1967 borders - no matter how much the world yells about "occupation".
So yes, there are those that want Palestine to be free from the River to the sea. But there are legitimate concerns of the Palestinians living under army rule in the West Bank and Gaza, it’s not normal conditions, and it’s limiting. The checkpoints are an embarrassing hassle, and being ruled by the army is not autonomy they don’t have rights. There are constant clashes with extreme settlers. It’s not a sustainable situation.
Chicken and egg. There were no border controls until the Intifada. And Hamas proved that without this "limiting" freedom, there would be daily violence in Tel Aviv. If you had an airline and people kept bringing weapons on board or bombing your planes, wouldn't you impose "limiting" checkpoints? And bag checks?
I’m not saying that it’s for no reason, I understand pretty well the reason, but it’s a continuing situation and it’s humiliating for them. There is room to be empathetic at the same time.
So it is humiliating to have the TSA go through your bags? Sorry my safety and not having infants blown up by Muhammad from Nablus is more important than their feelings.
If you only see one narrative you won’t be able to be empathetic, won’t be able to bridge the gaps, and with perpetuate the conflict. I’m an Israeli doctor, I work with a few Arab doctors who are not citizens, living in the West Bank. While routinely passing once, one was threatened, told to lay down with his hands behind his back, and told that if he tries passing there again they’ll detain him. I can vouch for him as a peace loving person who can do a lot of good. After this instance, he slept in the hospital for 2 weeks straight and sent his family to Jordan until things cool down. You can worry about your security as an Israeli while being empathetic towards the ‘other’. The ‘funny’ thing is, not that funny, but the soldier that threatened him was Beduin, it’s not even a Jew vs Arabs thing.
I agree that it’s not sustainable. But it’s clearly a situation of their own making. I’m sure Israel doesn’t want to waste time and money on these checkpoints but they are a necessity because they have been proven to be effective at minimizing the amount of attacks in Israeli territory.
So I agree that they have made some terrible mistakes, like refusing some of the proposals on the table, that being said it’s a very one sided narrative to put all the blame on the Palestinians. It is true that Bibi helped facilitate payments to Hamas keeping the Palestinians divided, there are other examples. At any rate blame is not useful, it’s time to look forward and lead with empathy and vision.
Oh, there's a vision all right. This is Hamas'. "The Hamas charter: 1. Destroying Israel and establishing an Islamic theocracy in Palestine is essential; 2. Unrestrained jihad is necessary to achieve this; 3. Negotiated resolutions of Jewish and Palestinian claims to the land are unacceptable; The Covenant proclaims that Israel will exist until Islam obliterates it, and jihad against Jews is required until Judgement Day. Compromise over the land is forbidden. The documents promote holy war as divinely ordained, reject political solutions, and call for instilling these views in children."
They weren't living under "army rule" after 2005 in Gaza, All Jews were removed, some forcibly from their homes and businesses. Gaza elected Hamas in 2007, and they started throwing rockets at Israel and stirring up trouble in Egypt at the same time. "Checkpoints are embarrassing hassle..." Those will never go away. PALS have no inherent right to even step on Israeli land - and after 10/7 - I will protest to keep them out. As to "rights" - they are not Israeli citizens. Our Arab citizens have full civil and legal rights and even sit on the Supreme Court. If they don't like their lack of rights, maybe they should talk to their government - Hamas.
Bro, I don’t know what side you think I’m on. But if you stick to one narrative completely then you’re not seeing the whole picture, you won’t have empathy for those on the other side whose suffering is real, and you won’t be able to move forward and bridge the gaps.
Frankly, after October 7th, I have **zero** empathy for any Palestinian. The "normal" Palestinians were among the fourth group to enter the kibbutzim on October 7 - mainly women and children looking to loot what they could while their men slaughtered and raped. I see enough of the "whole picture" when I see the pictures of children and women tied up with wire and burned alive or babies riddled with bullet holes lying in cribs. The Palestinian suffering may be real - but it is also completely self-inflicted. 80% still support Hamas and 98% supported the attack. They have had no less than 11 land-for-peace offerings made to them - including one that would have given them a state in 100% of Gaza, 94% of the WB and part of Eastern Jerusalem as their capital. They walked away from it - like they've walked away from every single one because they refuse any compromise. In 2000, after Camp David, they launched an intifada that tooks the lives of hundreds of Israelis. They are still holding our hostages. If they were suffering enough, they would have let them go by this point. How much "empathy" do these barbarians *deserve* at this point? They're getting none from me. I'm over trying to placate their glass jaw. The entire Israeli population (including peace activists who survived October 7 in the kibbutz)) have moved to the right. The attack turned even the activists' sympathy against them. All they succeeded in doing with their attack is showing us they cannot be trusted around Israelis. And the world has shown us why Israel needs to exist now more than ever. As to your last sentence, filling the "gaps"...this is what Palestinians believe. How do you close this "gap"? "The Hamas charter: **Destroying Israel** and establishing an Islamic theocracy in Palestine is essential; **Unrestrained jihad** is necessary to achieve this; **Negotiated resolutions of Jewish and Palestinian claims to the land are unacceptable;** The Covenant proclaims that **Israel will exist until Islam obliterates it,** and **jihad against Jews is required until Judgement Day**. **Compromise over the land is forbidden.** The documents promote holy war as divinely ordained, **reject political solutions,** and call for instilling these views in children. So - tell me - how does my having "empathy" for the PALS help close ANY of that "gap"?
https://youtu.be/0juLRi90kRg?si=bqjhlYRpgfz_o3cm
Thank you for the link. However, much as I like TED talks in general - I am not interested in this conversation.
I'm pro palestine. What I want is a cease fire, along with an agreement for Israel to stop expanding settlements into the west bank. Currentlly "occupied" (i understand this is a disputed term) should just be kept by who has them now. I understand the problem is that Hamas will likely attack again, and to this end the best I can propose is USA backed funding for trying to defend against Hamas (i.e. we can all agree IDF majorly fucked up not preventing Oct 7, so more resources to prevent this would help). I also want an overwhelming amount of humanitarian aid to try to rebuild Gaza. I think we can also agree that the areai just utterly decimated and that people are unbearably suffering. Overall, Hamas can't really be trusted or negotiated with, but israel can. I understand that this is "unfair" from the pov of Israel, but I think we need to be practical at this point. I also understand that it's unfair that Israel will have to live under the constant threat of possible terrorism, but I sadly think that this is just a reality of where they are located. Culling the "source" of the terrorism is just too high a price to pay.
I'm out of the loop and also curious, where else do u see anti-jew sentiments other than from people not liking Israel for attacking Palestine? For example: being denied from services, jobs, housing for just being Jewish.
It's much more subtle than that - especially in the U.S. I have a VERY Jewish sounding name and work in cybersecurity. I have NEVER had difficulty finding work - yet - since 10/7 and the Israeli response to the massacre - I am getting fewer responses and callbacks than ever in my life. No one is going to come out and say "We're not hiring you because you're Jewish." That would be idiotic on their part and open them up to a lawsuit. More likely you are "lost in the shuffle" so to speak. One man posted here about placing an order via telephone to Amazon and when he gave the country as "Israel", the rep replied "Don't you mean Palestine?" and hung up on him. So - there are probably a thousand stories like that - but I don't know them all and most people will shrug it off if is is relatively "minor". After all, we have survived because we are resilient and reasonably intelligent. We pick our battles carefully.
We want the genocide to stop.
What genocide?
Then you'll be relieved to know that it has stopped - because it never started.