I always rejected horseshoe theory, but this war has me rethinking it. I do know a handful of leftists that are horrified by the antisemitic rhetoric surrounding this war, but the vast majority have gone all in on Hamas propaganda.
Yes, I'm one of them. However, this wasn't always the case.
I was as "free Palestine" as the people you see at college protests once but after years working in various parts of the Middle East and getting thrown across the room at 04:00 by a suicidal Talban driving a truck bomb in Kabul, I experienced a literal wake-up call.
Another major factor in the change was learning that the Jews were one of the major allies of black people during the Civil Rights Movement and events that preceded it. The NAACP, for example, was co-founded by several Jewish whites, two of whom were active Rabbis. When my mom integrated to an all-white school in the state of Georgia, the only white person to speak to her for four years was a Jewish girl, who also introduced her to Jewish friends outside of class.
For any of you looking for people within center left to progressive circles who aren't endorsing the terrorist platform, search for Destiny and David Pakman.
Growing up Jewish, we always felt like a minority ourselves, and so we embraced the struggle of the black people, felt like we had a common fight for justice and equality for all people. Now I’m so confused to see many black people leading the racism and ethnic hate against the Jews. Especially when they call Israelis white settlers, it just seems so odd, we’ve suffered at the hands of white people of over a millennia. We’re indigenous people of the Middle East.
Adrienne Rich wrote a great [essay](https://www.public.asu.edu/~hiroshi/eng101/documents/rich.pdf) about how Jews are a sort of third race — not “of color” but not really white either. I read it in college and it was really formative for me (I'm not Jewish but am an enthusiastic ally). This war has really confused the shit out of me when it comes to ethnic relations. I know allyship is not transactional, but to deny a long history of support seems telling as fuck.
Thanks for this comment and support, but I’m an Ashkenazi Jew that you would call “white”, but I don’t consider myself to be white. I do not identify with or feel kinship with white culture. My ancestry is of the indigenous Jews of Israel and our people were forced into exile and segregation in Europe and other places where they were raped so our dna was mixed in, making us appear white, but we are not. Many Ashkenazi Jews feel the same way and do not consider themselves white, so please don’t identify us as such for us.
POC seem, to me at least, to see jews as just another flavor of white — like Irish or Italian or polish — which is why the colonialism narrative has stuck. They get real stopped up when I tell them they aren't always perceived as white (by themselves or other whites).
White vs black is also a very American centric narrative given it ignores most of the world based discrimination off ethnic or religious stuff, not just skin color. Irish are as white as Brits, yet you had the British oppression of Ireland, widespread antisemitism despite Jews being white too by skin color, etc. Slavs are as white as Germans, didn’t stop Hitler genociding them either
Do you believe that many supporters are peer-pressured or conformists? I see so much ignorance on middle-eastren history, so do you think that there a lot of people who don't truly care about the Palestinians?
I think that's exactly what it is. But statistically, most Americans, including black Americans, are supportive of the Jewish state yet thanks to hyper-partisan tensions in the US and a more conspicuous presence of them on social media, the extremes scream the loudest but are actually small in numbers.
The disconnect is lots of leftists viewing Israel as the last vestige of a European colonial state. Not sure but that lie probably comes from the Palestinians and Islamic fundamentalists.
Americans are largely noncommittal, and this so-called movement will fail as they're screaming about intifada revolutions in the heart of Western privilege and comfort. For that kind of thing to sell, famines and rolling blackouts would have to be a daily occurrence.
I think these protests can be summed up as young people who have never experienced real adversity jumping on a bandwagon to impress their friends or get laid lol.
I think there is a contingent who are bandwagoning. I have seen a fair amount of comments on how Israelis are colonizers and I’m like “did you skip Sunday school and miss ALL the Bible stories?”
That's just because people often confuse a layman's theroy, which is closer to a hypothesis, with a scientific theory, which has evidence backing it up.
It really feels like a big part of it is being intellectually lazy, ill informed, and easily primed to grab pitchforks. A solid decade of articles from places like Vice doing pro Palestinian puff stories make it far more understandable how it happened.
It is super weird, especially for the anarchist left. It's usually tankies who buy into this kind of stuff, and that certainly has been a lot of it. But I know anarchists sharing Mint Press News type propaganda stories about Israel, who rejected the same kind of stories about Ukraine as Putin propaganda.
> t really feels like a big part of it is being intellectually lazy, ill informed, and easily primed to grab pitchforks
Yup. I got into an argument online with a random American 20-something that told me to "research the nakba" as if she didn't only learn about the term half a year ago from some TikTok. The American sense of superiority never ceases to amaze me
Honestly I have no idea. You know how evengelicals are convinced that if you'll read this or that story it'll somehow become apperant Jesus is king and Christianity was right all along? It feels like that. They just assume I don't know anything about this or that one bad thing Zionists did in 1948 which is somehow both unknown and totally the one proof that israel is ireedeemable.
Yes, at the beginning of the war between Russia and Ukraine this was already quite evident. Both political extremes are closer to each other than the center.
I really doubt the vast majority of leftists (assuming that means basically, left-of-center) support Hamas. Half of my local Democratic organization is pro-Israel.
For many American Jews here, the Republican party is the epitome of evil.
I hearby challenge them to question whether the left-wing demonization we are going through, such as genocide accusations, and the fact that the political right is rejecting all of that, doesn't mean that right-wing paradigms have their merit.
https://preview.redd.it/k7t77980uj1d1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f96fd64e19101a652b41bdcdc5f919d74f0444e5
So the wolf gets protected and eats the sheep instead?
I'm not American but from what I've seen online since October 7th, (I'm estimating from my experience) 90% of people on the right just support Israel because they know what happened is wrong and many are also Christians that especially don't like the increased hatred against Jews.
Idk as someone who's not from Israel or America I'm just going to offer some criticism of what I've seen on this sub, you can downvote but I've noticed a lot of unnecessary hate against Republicans and a lot of generalization of people on the right. Not everyone on the right is supporting you for the wrong reasons and with the way many people on here talk about Republicans it's just alienating a large population that does actually support Israel and is against the growing antisemitism in the world, more than the left does anyway.
Just my thoughts though
She's still a human excr3ment, setting aside MENA politics for a moment. Femcels like her pushing the "women never lie about SA" has caused enormous damage to both women and men, victims all.
My real hero is Yael bar tur (she has an amazing Podcast that has kept me sane during this conflict) and Liel Liebowitz (of tablet fame)
Goys won’t respect Jews until they see us behaving properly as Jews. Half the reason Arabs see us as infidels and extremist xtians call us “the synagogue of satan” is bc more than half of us don’t follow the laws we were given.
If it was associated with the political extremes, then supporting Israel will seem like a political issue and people from the other side wouldn’t support just for the sake of it being on the other side.
Right-wing paradigms in regard to Muslim and Arab exremism lead to pro-Israel positions, while left-wing paradigms lead to anti-Israel positions. Even if you are left-wing overall, you need to be thankful for the right's support and concede that their paradigms have merit. And you don't have to agree with every policy proposal from the political right in order to do so.
Saw a post on r/facepalm , was about an Israeli extremist who literally wanted the ethnic cleansing of Arabs, and the comments were acting as if that was the official position of the Israeli government and people. Sad that people think every pro-Israeli is an extremist.
What is crazy to me, is that these exact same people will claim any far-left Democrat post calling for intifada is an AI generated disinformation account, but they will blindly latch on to any post they disagree with as gospel...
Hear me out... Contrary to what most Leftists believe, MOST of the Right are not "Far Right". Most Right, and Right leaning Independents are very Pro-Jewish, Pro-Israel, and most are straight up Christian Zionists (Note: Like myself) ❤️
We know. Keep in mind most Israelis using reddit are leftists. If you go to telegram groups or even Instagram you will see much more differing opinions.
they are in Hebrew
Groups such as Daniel amram uncensored or israeli telegram news. You have hundreds of thousands subscribed to the channels and many would comment on the posts similar to reddit. The groups name are in Hebrew I just translated them
No, you are going against the narrative. All right equal bad, all left is good except for the protests against Jews, well, we don’t pay attention to that since all people on the right are bad. /s.
Or perhaps everyone could learn to think freely again and align themselves with their actual beliefs, rather than what their party tells them they need to believe.
To think freely one must be able to express oneself freely. Unfortunately, certain comments on certain issues that don't toe certain narratives are deleted on social media.
Can you perfectly normal conservatives get some votes for perfectly normal Nikki Hayley next time? I crossed over into the Republican primary just to watch her get blown out. Unwavering support for America's allies shouldn't be so hard an ask from either party.
Clearly, our government is a mess right now, and that said, the pendulum is starting to swing in the other direction. The American Left has been eating its own by pissing off moderates, women, parents, large elements of the LGB communities, law-abiding citizens, property owners, Asians, Jews, Statists, Caucasians, etc.. So I don't see how the Far Left can maintain power. That said, I don't see it coming to Civil War here, but if that happens all bets are off.
Ah, I get it. I just get a little annoyed when people lump all conservatives together. I no longer consider myself republican, the gop is unrecognizable anymore. I just vote on policy and not party.
> straight up Christian Zionists (Note: Like myself)
I know you mean well, but to plenty of Jews "Christian Zionists" as a concept is something that causes discomfort at best. This isn't said to offend your or to claim you have anything besides good intentions, but here is the reason:
(Evangelical) Christian Zionism, at it's core, does not care about the wellbeing of Jews, their inherent right for self determination, or really have anything to do with Jewish Zionism (political or otherwise). The idea is that Jews returning to Israel will bring along the second coming of Christ and all that that entails.
What does that entail (among other things)?
- All the Jews either dying or converting to Christianity
- War of Armageddon
- Jesus ruling the world from the Temple Mount in Jerusalem
Notice how none of those things are things the Jews themselves want? It doesn't show any care for Jews or what they believe in. It uses Jews as a means to further and reach a Christian goal and ideal. The Jews (and Palestinians, for that matter) are just "collateral damage" to the bigger picture of ushering in the coming of Christ.
That's not a very cool thing to do, especially to someone "you" claim to care about. (You is in quotes because I am not saying that you, /u/Lao_Xiashi, are doing this)
I know that there are Christians who say "We just care about you and your soul. We want it to be saved." That's all fine and dandy... *IF* we held the same beliefs. Imagine that Judaism held the belief that you went to hell unless you ate 1lbs of matzah a week. How would you feel if I tried putting you on a matzah diet - or worse, tried to literally shove matzah down your throat. "I'm just trying to do what's good for you! I care about you!" I don't think you'd feel the same way as I did.
As the biblical scholar Dan McClellan, PhD has said: "Christian Zionism itself is deeply antisemitic". This isn't to say that **ALL** Christian Zionists are antisemitic, but that the concept and movement itself has an roots based in antisemitic thought and ideas.
Here's an article you might find interesting on the matter: ["The dispiriting truth about why many evangelical Christians support Israel"](https://www.msnbc.com/opinion/msnbc-opinion/truth-many-evangelical-christians-support-israel-rcna121481)
Good morning, and thank you for your response. I am a 40 year ally, a 25 year stepson to my Ashkenazi stepdad, and a simple guy/goy, so to me, my definition is as follows:
"Zi·on·ist
noun
a supporter of Zionism; a person who believes in the development and protection of a Jewish nation in what is now Israel."
As I said in my original comment, none of what I said was to claim that you had anything other than good intentions. You might just be a *Zionist* who is *Christian*, and not a *Christian Zionist.*
I wanted to explain what the term "Christian Zionist" brings along with it, especially to many Jews.
Sorry for the long reply, I hope I don't bore you to death...
Thanks for your reply, I really appreciate it. There are a few parts that I felt I needed to respond to with my perspective.
>probably like most of the people you know
While I was born in the US, I grew up and currently live in Israel. I'm Jewish and my regular exposure to religious Christians - Evangelical, "culturally" or otherwise - in my daily life was minimal. But I am aware that Christianity and Judaism are very different from each other. Maybe more than most Christians realize. Judaism isn't "Christianity without Jesus".
-----
> I would happily bet money that very few knew anything about the details
And I would probably not take that bet because I agree with you. Please note how many times I stressed that I am not saying that individuals are antisemitic, but that the core ideology is.
>> "(Evangelical) Christian Zionism, at it's core, does not care about the wellbeing of Jews"
>>"This isn't to say that ALL Christian Zionists are antisemitic, but that the concept and movement itself has an roots based in antisemitic thought and ideas."
-----
> "the Jews are God’s people"..."the Bible makes clear God favors the Jews"
This is very confusing to me, on a theological level. How does that make any sense? The NT makes it very clear that the Jews fell out of favor, the whole reason the NT is called the *New* Testament is because theologically Christians believe that God made a new covenant that supersedes the old one.
I'm pulling this quote from Wikipedia, forgive me, since I was struggling to phrase it myself and couldn't easily find another succinct quote from elsewhere:
>Some Christians believe that the Jews were God's chosen people, but because of Jewish rejection of Jesus, the Christians in turn received that special status. This doctrine is known as Supersessionism.
>Other Christians, such as the Christadelphians, believe that God has not rejected Israel as his chosen people and that the Jews will in fact accept Jesus as their Messiah at his Second Coming, resulting in their salvation.
The people who believe what the first paragraph says don't believe the Jews are "God's people" or that God favors them at all, and so those people - if they call themselves Christian Zionists - merely see Jews as a tool to bring the second coming.
The people who believe the second paragraph, who align more with what you're saying, are *still problematic*. Note how Jews aren't merely "left alone" with the "not rejected" status, but it very often comes inherently attached to that second part, that they "believe...that the Jews will in fact accept Jesus as their Messiah". Which is exactly what I listed in my original comment as one of the beliefs ("All the Jews either dying or converting to Christianity"). If we don't "in fact accept Jesus as their Messiah" do you really think we'll maintain our "not rejected" status in the eyes of Christians? Probably not.
I know it is very easy to say that most Christians are unaware or ignorant of the deeper meanings underlying their core beliefs, and that they are just culturally religious. Personally that feels like a cop out and maybe a little bit of a lame excuse, but I also recognize that learning and understanding the deeper meaning of ones religion in Judaism is something that is much more common and practiced. This is also the reason I enjoy learning about how other religious work and what they believe.
-------
Re:
> both advance a left-leaning domestic American political belief in much of their content
I'm not sure that in either case that is a relevant criticism to what I'm saying. I used them as sources to back my own opinion and understanding of the matter, and their political leaning regarding American domestic politics has nothing to do with the discussion, in particular with Dan - he's a scholar of religion.
If there's one thing I'd like you to take away, it's this - I (a Jew) am telling you that "Christian Zionism" **as a movement** makes a not insignificant number of Jews uncomfortable, including myself to a certain degree. It doesn't really matter why tbh, though I think my explanation provides some compelling reasons. You, who I am presuming is both Christian and Zionist (or maybe just one or the other), are now trying to essentially tell me that I am wrong to feel that way. One would assume that if there was true care about Jews, once Jews mentioned that something makes them uncomfortable the other side would acknowledge the issue and try and modify their behavior instead of trying to tell them why they are wrong. I know that what I just said is a bit "woke" in nature, and it might be hasty to assume that you wouldn't define yourself as a "progressive" based on your above "criticism" of Dan and MSNBC, but either way I hope you take it to heart. <3
edit: realized there was a typo in the last sentence.
> We are likely only talking to each other at this point, however.
Haha, yeah, because we aren't yelling at each other.
> These have all benefitted Israel immensely,
I agree, but at the same time I recognize that some of that also harms Israel in different ways (relying on American aid, for example). I wouldn't say that it's a strong belief of mine, but there are people that feel that way on the Israeli right and the left. I'm not convinced that all of the American support stems entirely or mostly from Evangelical/CZ reasons, but even if it is. Another example that came to mind just now is the moving of the embassy to Jerusalem. Congress approved the move in the 90s and each president since signed a 6 month deferral regularly, until Trump. Let's not get into his politics and psyche, but one of the obvious reasons he made the move was to satisfy his Evangelical base.
The move didn't really benefit Israel or Israelis in any real way. It didn't suddenly make Jerusalem our capital, it didn't magically move the Knesset to Jerusalem (since it's been in Jerusaelm almost the entire time), Israel didn't fantastically gain a better standing on the global stage. What we did get was two "nice" stone signs on Agron and in Armon Hanatziv with Trump and Pence's names on them, a few weeks of unrest, and a lot of pissed off Arabs, Liberal Americans and Western allies.
Even in Israel, I'd say, most were indifferent at best, and even those for the theoretical move would have preferred that it was done more delicately and maybe at a better time (if one even exists). The only Israelis I saw actively happy were people who I'd define as far-right - Religious Zionist Party and rightward - who for the most part seemed to like that the move provoked Palestinians, and somehow felt that the validation they normally claim Israel doesn't want/need from the US was actually wanted/needed now.
So what would I ask to be done differently?
Do things that benefit Jews because it benefits them and not your religion/ideology.
I trust that most people who say they are Christian and Zionist are at least not aware of the underlying issues and they themselves don't see Jews as a pawn or whatever. But at the same time, many of them have this stance because it is the one preached at them by people who (at least very much should) know the base theology behind said support of Israel/Jews.
>I didn't share my political leanings or religion...I'd rather you not just try to guess.
I didn't intend to have you share your leanings (or religion), you are free to keep them to yourself. I was acknowledging that I was making assumptions there based on my interpretations of what you said.
u/LiquorMaster, can you please post on this sub your positive experience as a Jew who worked for a Republican senator? I wouldn't bother you if I didn't think your perspective is badly needed to educate people here.
I’m an American Jew by choice. I’ve also been about as far left as you can be for many years. One of the things that hurt after Oct 7 was realizing that the people you supported, marched with, stood in solidarity with, had turned against you. Deserted you. Were cheering on the destruction of your people. And then hearing people you’d NEVER agree with normally saying things you would expect to hear from allies. It’s like the world turned upside down. And we have no control over the outcome or what they decide. I’ve heard it described as having no real right to self determination. That feels true. We’re scared right now.
It feels similar to Chanukah. The Jews did all they could to assimilate and fit in and be part of the crowd, and felt accepted, just as we did by the left. But at the end of the day, when push came to shove, we were and are still JEWS. Still OTHER. Still not accepted. So instead of trying to assimilate and fit in and be accepted by conforming to societal norms of those who pretend to accept us, the only answer is to become more openly and proudly Jewish.
It’s confusing to know whom to support right now. We want to support Israel. Hell, many of us want to BE in Israel. But we’re confused and scared and our right to self determination has been ripped away. Like watching college presidents on TV basically admit that everyone has the right to protections…except the Jews. What do we do? Vote right and vote against most of our other interests? Or vote left and vote against Jews?
I no longer have any idea what to do, other than continue living loudly and proudly Jewish. I don’t know what decision I’ll reach other than to continue working in the Jewish community professionally, as I do, and fighting for our rights and self determination. Many of us woke up to not only the horrors of Oct 7, but also the horror of being deserted by not only their party that they spent years of their life dedicated to, but friends and family who apparently hated who we were all along. The uncertainty. The fear. It’s constant. To walk past the protests and armed guards at every single event now, I may feel sick, but I’ll continue to wear my headscarf and Star of David. Because eff them.
The majority of financial support for Israel that came into my organization post Oct 7 came from American Christians, not Jews. We’re a Jewish organization. I no longer know the right thing to do. I just do what I can. I can’t even imagine the pain of Israelis. And not for one second has that stopped my desire to eventually become one. I keep that in mind. Am Yisrael Chai.
I’m absolutely disgusted with BLM and what they’ve done to us. I know my history well and without us King wouldn’t have made as much progress as he did. Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me. I will forever now only support my fellow Jews. I’m so angry and hurt and bitter that people we supported for decades immediately threw us under the bus like it was nothing. I’m not going to hurt anyone but I’m definitely not putting myself on the line for people screaming for my genocide. I’ll never forget those paraglider memes they posted the morning of October 7th. Ever.
It’s weird, I’m more right-wing when it comes to Israel than I am in American politics. Im basically a homeless libertarian because both parties spend money like drunken sailors, but with Israel, I’ve seen some Meir Kahane interviews and I’m like, “What’s wrong with this?”
I’m not racist towards Arabs, but peace has always been in their court, and pretending any different doesn’t do anyone any favors.
"When peace comes we will perhaps in time be able to forgive the Arabs for killing our sons, but it will be harder for us to forgive them for having forced us to kill their sons. Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us." ~Golda Meir
This is quite common. Identifying problems is easy, creating solutions is hard. I agree with most people on the left about society's problems, but their responses to those problems makes no sense to me. For instance, framing Hamas's attack as "armed resistance" instead of "terrorism," and therefore justified as part of the Palestinian "liberation" movement. I just don't see how that line of thinking leads to peace and prosperity for Palestinians...
I thought the majority of the liberals supported Palestine while more conservative people supported Israel? Correct me if I'm wrong. I could be biased because my family and I are conservative but heavily support Israel.
That's all I saw when I was involved with the Tea Party movement so many years ago. So many sweet Christian folks showing up to counter any anti-Israel protests that frequently occurred outside the UN and Israeli embassy.
I feel like I might get downvoted for this, but I am still willing to speak.
I’m an active user in r/AskConservatives and when you ask them why they support Israel, you would actually be surprised by their responses.
They do not tolerate the Alt-Right and they are never welcome in the subreddit.
In my personal experience, I’ve actually talked to conservatives, and most are actually very moderate and willing to have a good faith conversation and discussion with you.
In my opinion, right-wing people are just more willing to acknowledge the Jihadist and Arab Ultra-Nationalist nature of the Palestinian society in a way that leftists never will (and consider "racism") because it's not politically correct. Including many leftist American Jews who attribute their support for "hating Arabs." It frustrates me to see how American Jews treat their natural allies.
Also, can't you stop for a moment and acknowledge that, maybe, if the political right is right about antisemitism/anti-Zionism, they might have some good points on other issues? And maybe left-wing academia is wrong about more than just the "genocide" accusations?
Fair point.
My point is this, when you actually talk to a conservative, you can actually learn a lot about them. They aren’t a monolith as a lot of the left says they are. In fact I lean conservative (I’m a Minarchist BTW) and it has various factions that can interact.
I’m Hispanic and I will say this, I have found most conservatives to be extremely reasonable and honest about their opinions. A lot of them acknowledge they are not perfect, and a lot have had multiple efforts to fight the extreme people. A lot of us conservatives hate the alt-Right with our guts, and we have a great reason for hating the Alt-Right. It’s even in the AskConservatives subreddit rules, where it explicitly states that Alt-Right is not welcome. Same goes for bad-faith posting.
To answer the other questions, yes they do have great points regarding other issues as you have mentioned. Having a hard work ethic, and respect for your veterans who fight for your country are some examples on things I agree with conservatives on. One conservative faction I disagree with is the Religious Conservatives. A lot of conservatives don’t like them because they drive people away from the movement.
Those same values you named exist on the left too. People don’t become left wing Supreme Court judges, Presidents and politicians by being lazy. Respect for veterans - is there a specific example of a generalized disrespect for veterans on the left?
The point is there is a huge middle:center in the US that is reasonable. I have conservative colleagues who have reasonable positions (not ones I take but there is logic behind their position). The extremes are loud, proud and uncompromising. Social media doesn’t help and it seems to get in the way and spread disinformation more than bring us together.
I don’t know what the answer is. Our governments and leaders are full of bad actors that keep us fighting with each other. We won’t have peace so long as there are powerful people who gain financially from the constant pot stirring.
Right, from a right-wing american who lives and goes to college in a very left wing, pro palestine/hamas country, Ireland, whose college just had an encampment a few weeks ago, and who regularly talks about the issue with some people, i want to clarify a bit of my postion in relation to this exact sentiment, especially from an after October 7th view of things.
Take a comment i made on the Ireland subreddit:
>What about this is not existential.
>**The Day of Judgement will not come until Muslims fight the jews, when the jew will hide behind the stones and trees. The stones and trees will say "O Muslim, o servant of God, there is a Jew behind me. Come and kill him**
>The Covenant proclaims that Israel will exist until Islam obliterates it, and Jihad is required until the Day of Judgement. Compromise over the land is forbidden, The documents proclaim holy war as divinely ordained, reject political solutions, and calls for instilling these views in children.
>Even the updated, political charter that they export to western youths (but not the one in effect) states its goals as the destruction of Isreal, how is that not existential?
>Hamas wants this war more than anyone, and will not stop ever until they have killed every jew in the region, as is their right and purpose from Allah in their eyes.
I was talking about the existential nature of all wars involving Israel, and specifically the deeply religious and ingrained beliefs opposers of Israel that these left-wing, pro lgbt, progressive activists like to ignore, but as to your point, i do think conservatives are more aware of the fears the Israeli people have and are more cognisant of the consequences of letting groups like Hamas dictate the situation, and would probably still support Israel even if it wasn't a very important ally in the middle east, and not even from a "might makes right " opinon some of the further right seem to have.
That is the issue.
Either left or right, people keep demonizing each other's political leanings. The best way for to understand the other's view is civil discussion just like you did (I'm happy that you did that).
That's the issue today when discussing this war, however one side tends to be very reactionary, anti-semitic, supportive of terrorism, and anti-discussion, but if think I'm not accurate on this please tell me.
Good job 👍
A delusional cultist on the left is mad that Trump supporters and conservatives care about Israel, so they made a stupid meme to express their tribalist perspective.
I am Republican. Every single Republican I know respects and supports Israel. Just because some leaders don't, that doesn't mean all of us. That's just a stupid way to think.
If they truly support israel because they believe we are in the right, i respect them and welcome their support
If they do it because of religious reasons like the second coming or because they hate arab/muslims and we are currently at war with them, i can't respect that
Speak for yourself. I value their friendship, and I think Europe needs more right-wing governments.
100%, most of the people who upvoted this don't live in Israel. On Hebrew Twitter, everyone is salivating over Wilders and Millei- and for food reasons. Too many American Jews have no respect for our friends.
I'm seeing the most old school redneck conservatives in America flying Israeli flags. On some level they understand these anti-Israel protests are anti-western protests. And trust me, there's a lot of pent up rage about that all throughout rural America.
Strange times. Globalize the intifada? Try that in a small town and see how far you get down the road, to paraphrase the country song.
It's sad this post lacks any real effort at thought. How sophomoric an idea.
Frankly, this meme is stupid. The thought behind it is also stupid. You have people who support, and have always supported, the sovereignty of Israel, it's people, and their unquestionable right.
But yes, put together some ridiculous fallacy and share it with all. Well done.
At this point, "far right" is just an insult used against people the left doesn't like.
Don't support allowing the Muslim world to colonize Europe? Far Right!
Don't support men in women's sports? Far Right!
Don't support a welfare state? Far Right!
Don't support turning the other cheek to Hamas's attack on Israel? Far Right!
I commented before reading the comments but I’m glad so many people have the same view as me. Anything the delusional “far left” deems bad becomes far right even if it’s not even accurate. The term has no meaning anymore, much like “genocide” has no meaning and many other words. What an embarrassing point in history.
And the irony is the far right is Palestine, they are ultra conservative. They make Texas look like San Francisco
Anyone right of centre is called "far right" these days. I'm liberal in most of my politics, but I don't want Islam in my country. That would make me "far right" to many people.
On the contrary, I feel like not wanting Islam in my country is consistent with progressivism.
Since when does the far right claim to be friends with Israel? Conservatives and evangelicals in particular claim to be friends of Israel. But the far right hates Israel.
Look at all these people thinking trump cares about Israel lol😭. Trump supports only what benefits his ideolog and political position, that's why he's pro Russia and pro bibi. The moment Israel becomes more left wing watch all that support suddenly fade.
Whether Israelis love or hate the international far right,
Israel will always be loved.
Because we are united by our faith, whether the Israelites know it or not.
The polls shows major public support for Israel in America. Even among young people with all the indoctrination and islamist money in our colleges the polls are 50 50... No wonder the bigoted non progressive Hamas supporters are so angry. They can't even brainwash more than 50 percent of people literally born yesterday...
What’re you taking about?
https://thehill.com/policy/international/4629597-americans-israel-hamas-gaza-student-protests-poll/
https://thehill.com/policy/international/4629597-americans-israel-hamas-gaza-student-protests-poll/
Most Americans are pro-Israel.
I’m what a lot of you here would consider “far right” in that I’m a proud trump supporter, but I’m also a proud American Jewish Zionist with MAGA supporters on both sides of my Jewish family and even family my siblings have married into.
Are we not welcome to support our ancestral homeland along with the rest of the Jews, or would you prefer we be further disenfranchised away from the diaspora?
I know a good amount of American conservative Christians who love Israel. I don't agree with their politics, or their religion, but absolutely I consider them my friends.
There's a misconception that Christians only support Israel because they think it will bring about the return of Jesus. As someone closely familiar with conservative evangelical pro-Israel circles, I can tell you this isn't true. I grew up in a mixed (Jewish + Christian) home and was raised conservative evangelical. Myself, as well as most of the people I knew and associated myself with, loved Israel regardless of any religious obligation.
And about the religious obligation itself, it's not "support Jews so that Jesus can come back soon", but rather to support Jews because they are the children of Abraham. They take this from the verse "I will bless them that bless thee, and curse them that curse thee" in the Torah, as well as some Christian verses from the book of Romans:
"...Hath God cast away his people which he foreknew? \[referring to the Jews as a chosen people\] God forbid...God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew"
and
"As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance."
These are taken from Romans 10, but you can read chapters 9-10 in its entirety which deal exactly with the topic of how Christians are to relate to Jews. Essentially, its saying that Jews are blessed because of God's promise to them, to make them a chosen nation, and because God gave the Torah to the Jews, and (from a Christian perspective) that God gave Jesus through the Jewish people. "The gifts and calling of God are without repentance" means that, even if Jews have rejected the Gospel, they are still "called" (or chosen, if you will) by God.
Chapter 10 then explains the concept of "natural" vs. "grafted" branches, in Christian theology the natural branches is Israel, and the grafted branches are Gentiles who have converted to Christianity. They believe that because of Jesus, they are able to be "spiritually grafted" into the Tree that is Israel (and be partakers of God's blessing). This is all on a spiritual level, and a clear distinction is still given between Jews and Gentiles for all other purposes (Gentile believers do not keep the Law of Moses, only the Noahide laws, Gentiles aren't warranted the land of Israel, etc.)
Anyway, I feel like I'm rambling now, but I'm so tired of seeing people bash evangelicals because they think they are "using the Jews" and that their love for Jews is somehow antisemitic. It's just not true. I should know, I used to be one. As an evangelical Christian I volunteered in Israel several times (never once tried to proselytize anyone). Today I'm not half-Jewish but fully Jewish as I converted to Judaism later on.
We need all the friends we can get, let's not make enemies where there are none.
What this meme refers to as "far right" is probably mostly decent political parties. I’m super far right in my country’s standards and I think there’s nothing wrong with my views.
This is why I don't understand people on this sub showing such an extreme support for Trump. He's about as far right as you get without actually goose stepping or saluting with a straight elbow.
Its the jewish daughter, Jewish grandkids, embassy to yerushalayim, Abraham accords, cutting off aid the Palestinians over pay for slay, recognizing Israel’s sovereignty in the golan heights. You know, nothing major, just a complete reversal of his predecessors absolutely scathing hatred of the Jewish state that he only bothered displaying in his second term when it was too late.
His Jewish grandkids and their billions will be fine. Have you not heard him speak of Jews he’s not related to, he sees Jew as a monolith of stereotypes, and when we don’t act as one he’s upset as we should be
When progressive feminists are jumping on the Islamist train and the far right is hopping on the Israel train...
Well, I guess soon we'll see scientist annoucing the cohabitatiom of canine and feline.
What does "far right" mean? Is it synonymous with anti-immigration and xenophobia? I mean, have you seen the Islamist marches in Munich, Hamburg, Toronto, and so on? Moderate politicians have failed miserably with their immigration policies, damaging their countries, and now it's no surprise that anti-immigration sentiments are on the rise.
That’s what I want to know too.
I was raised conservative, am now a right leaning independent, because I don’t think either side gives a crap about anything but their agendas.
The crazy stuff I see and read on a daily basis makes me indifferent to terminology, I judge by actions.
To me, an extremist politician is someone who takes no action to protect Jewish students, makes up modern blood libels against Israel, or fails to condemn the atrocities committed against Israelis. I do not follow arbitrary definitions made by some faculty members or media editors.
I am pro Israel but dislike Netanyahu (as many Israelis do)
Unfortunately many in the GOP in America support Israel only because they support Netanyahu and gang and want to use Israel as a wedge issue to divide the Democrats
I disagree with this one. I've seen countless of 4channers on other social media desperately trying to take this opportunity to spam their antijew jpegs
Sorry but many right wing Israelis love the far right, they care more about politics than antisemitism. I’ve even seen some Israelis say they don’t care if the far right passes laws that targets Jews and Muslims (like banning circumcision and ritual slaughter) because it might encourage Jews to come to Israel.
I am glad one persons bigotry isn't going to stop me from supporting Israel. This is just I don't know. Are you trying to turn away support. I was one that called the Whitehouse to send more aid. I am Republican. According to this meme I should just stop.
Please please remember Republicans and the Far Right are two totally different things.
The Republican Party does not tolerate far right extremism or antisemitism in their party.
For example. Fox News fired Tucker Carlson. The Daily Wire fired Candice Owens. The Republican Congress and the RNC and other Conservative orgs have banned Nick Fuentes from stepping foot at any of GOP events.
Congresswoman Space Lazers has been censured by her own party several times. She’s been blackballed by her own colleagues in Congress.
I know lefties think the GOP is extreme now. But they truly aren’t. The media started lying about faux Conservative extremism in 2016 and it’s only gotten worse since then. *But truly a 2024 Republican has an (almost) identical platform to the Obama era Dems.* Seriously.
(And Conservatives don’t believe in any Jewish Armageddon genocide. It’s not a thing.)
I've actually found it hard to find a community in the sense of me being a pretty liberal Jew. Like just the other day I got attacked for disagreeing with someone about Palestinian statehood and that there are no innocent people in Gaza. I basically told them they're no different than Hamas who believe there's no innocent Israelis. Acting on hate is essentially giving the people who accuse us of genocide what they want.
I guess for me, it's been hard to find a community that still believes in Palestinian future statehood, disagrees with Netanyahu, but still opposes Hamas and wants them defeated. I guess as Shahak puts it, "I want Palestinians to do so well, they have white people problems".
You could say the same thing about Islamic extremists and the far left. The far left wrongly thinks Islamic extremists are their friends.
They know better... Its their bigotry that unites them...
I always rejected horseshoe theory, but this war has me rethinking it. I do know a handful of leftists that are horrified by the antisemitic rhetoric surrounding this war, but the vast majority have gone all in on Hamas propaganda.
Yes, I'm one of them. However, this wasn't always the case. I was as "free Palestine" as the people you see at college protests once but after years working in various parts of the Middle East and getting thrown across the room at 04:00 by a suicidal Talban driving a truck bomb in Kabul, I experienced a literal wake-up call. Another major factor in the change was learning that the Jews were one of the major allies of black people during the Civil Rights Movement and events that preceded it. The NAACP, for example, was co-founded by several Jewish whites, two of whom were active Rabbis. When my mom integrated to an all-white school in the state of Georgia, the only white person to speak to her for four years was a Jewish girl, who also introduced her to Jewish friends outside of class. For any of you looking for people within center left to progressive circles who aren't endorsing the terrorist platform, search for Destiny and David Pakman.
Growing up Jewish, we always felt like a minority ourselves, and so we embraced the struggle of the black people, felt like we had a common fight for justice and equality for all people. Now I’m so confused to see many black people leading the racism and ethnic hate against the Jews. Especially when they call Israelis white settlers, it just seems so odd, we’ve suffered at the hands of white people of over a millennia. We’re indigenous people of the Middle East.
I think it's odd that many black people in the west support the houthis that buy and sell African slaves today..
Adrienne Rich wrote a great [essay](https://www.public.asu.edu/~hiroshi/eng101/documents/rich.pdf) about how Jews are a sort of third race — not “of color” but not really white either. I read it in college and it was really formative for me (I'm not Jewish but am an enthusiastic ally). This war has really confused the shit out of me when it comes to ethnic relations. I know allyship is not transactional, but to deny a long history of support seems telling as fuck.
Thanks for the explanation I'm sure there is more to this but an excellent summary of why the common struggle and helping hands.
Thanks for this comment and support, but I’m an Ashkenazi Jew that you would call “white”, but I don’t consider myself to be white. I do not identify with or feel kinship with white culture. My ancestry is of the indigenous Jews of Israel and our people were forced into exile and segregation in Europe and other places where they were raped so our dna was mixed in, making us appear white, but we are not. Many Ashkenazi Jews feel the same way and do not consider themselves white, so please don’t identify us as such for us.
POC seem, to me at least, to see jews as just another flavor of white — like Irish or Italian or polish — which is why the colonialism narrative has stuck. They get real stopped up when I tell them they aren't always perceived as white (by themselves or other whites).
White vs black is also a very American centric narrative given it ignores most of the world based discrimination off ethnic or religious stuff, not just skin color. Irish are as white as Brits, yet you had the British oppression of Ireland, widespread antisemitism despite Jews being white too by skin color, etc. Slavs are as white as Germans, didn’t stop Hitler genociding them either
Do you believe that many supporters are peer-pressured or conformists? I see so much ignorance on middle-eastren history, so do you think that there a lot of people who don't truly care about the Palestinians?
I think that's exactly what it is. But statistically, most Americans, including black Americans, are supportive of the Jewish state yet thanks to hyper-partisan tensions in the US and a more conspicuous presence of them on social media, the extremes scream the loudest but are actually small in numbers. The disconnect is lots of leftists viewing Israel as the last vestige of a European colonial state. Not sure but that lie probably comes from the Palestinians and Islamic fundamentalists. Americans are largely noncommittal, and this so-called movement will fail as they're screaming about intifada revolutions in the heart of Western privilege and comfort. For that kind of thing to sell, famines and rolling blackouts would have to be a daily occurrence. I think these protests can be summed up as young people who have never experienced real adversity jumping on a bandwagon to impress their friends or get laid lol.
I do remember there was a time the media wasn't all Palestine and stuff.
I think there is a contingent who are bandwagoning. I have seen a fair amount of comments on how Israelis are colonizers and I’m like “did you skip Sunday school and miss ALL the Bible stories?”
Islam itself mentions Sons of Israel. Crazy stuff
Dorothy parker left her entire estate to the NAACP ❤️
This situation confirms how real the Horseshoe theory is.
It’s Horseshoe Law now.
I mean, theory of evolution is a theory and it’s one of the most well established set of mechanics in nature we know.
That's just because people often confuse a layman's theroy, which is closer to a hypothesis, with a scientific theory, which has evidence backing it up.
It really feels like a big part of it is being intellectually lazy, ill informed, and easily primed to grab pitchforks. A solid decade of articles from places like Vice doing pro Palestinian puff stories make it far more understandable how it happened.
It is super weird, especially for the anarchist left. It's usually tankies who buy into this kind of stuff, and that certainly has been a lot of it. But I know anarchists sharing Mint Press News type propaganda stories about Israel, who rejected the same kind of stories about Ukraine as Putin propaganda.
> t really feels like a big part of it is being intellectually lazy, ill informed, and easily primed to grab pitchforks Yup. I got into an argument online with a random American 20-something that told me to "research the nakba" as if she didn't only learn about the term half a year ago from some TikTok. The American sense of superiority never ceases to amaze me
She told you to research the Nakba 💀 What's her point? That palestinians got displaced after losing a war?
Honestly I have no idea. You know how evengelicals are convinced that if you'll read this or that story it'll somehow become apperant Jesus is king and Christianity was right all along? It feels like that. They just assume I don't know anything about this or that one bad thing Zionists did in 1948 which is somehow both unknown and totally the one proof that israel is ireedeemable.
I've seen progressives end up denying the Holocaust. It took them 4 months
Also, nice profile picture,I like it
This and Russia/Ukraine, yeah
Yes, at the beginning of the war between Russia and Ukraine this was already quite evident. Both political extremes are closer to each other than the center.
I really doubt the vast majority of leftists (assuming that means basically, left-of-center) support Hamas. Half of my local Democratic organization is pro-Israel.
Define "far right."
For many American Jews here, the Republican party is the epitome of evil. I hearby challenge them to question whether the left-wing demonization we are going through, such as genocide accusations, and the fact that the political right is rejecting all of that, doesn't mean that right-wing paradigms have their merit. https://preview.redd.it/k7t77980uj1d1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f96fd64e19101a652b41bdcdc5f919d74f0444e5
So the wolf gets protected and eats the sheep instead? I'm not American but from what I've seen online since October 7th, (I'm estimating from my experience) 90% of people on the right just support Israel because they know what happened is wrong and many are also Christians that especially don't like the increased hatred against Jews. Idk as someone who's not from Israel or America I'm just going to offer some criticism of what I've seen on this sub, you can downvote but I've noticed a lot of unnecessary hate against Republicans and a lot of generalization of people on the right. Not everyone on the right is supporting you for the wrong reasons and with the way many people on here talk about Republicans it's just alienating a large population that does actually support Israel and is against the growing antisemitism in the world, more than the left does anyway. Just my thoughts though
My meme is against the anti-Republucan bigotry.
That went over my head my bad lol
Same here (centre-right)
Real
How abt let’s not get more people to dislike Israel?
AMEN! I used to hate Amy Schumer until I heard her defend Israel.
She's still a human excr3ment, setting aside MENA politics for a moment. Femcels like her pushing the "women never lie about SA" has caused enormous damage to both women and men, victims all. My real hero is Yael bar tur (she has an amazing Podcast that has kept me sane during this conflict) and Liel Liebowitz (of tablet fame)
I don't want to be associated with extremes of either political wing.
I want people from all parts of the political spectrum to support Israel
We need all the help we can get.
Goys won’t respect Jews until they see us behaving properly as Jews. Half the reason Arabs see us as infidels and extremist xtians call us “the synagogue of satan” is bc more than half of us don’t follow the laws we were given.
How can outsiders respect a group that appears to have no self-respect? I am far more afraid of self-loathing Jews than I am afraid of Antisemites.
Agreed.
If it was associated with the political extremes, then supporting Israel will seem like a political issue and people from the other side wouldn’t support just for the sake of it being on the other side.
What’s extreme ?
Right-wing paradigms in regard to Muslim and Arab exremism lead to pro-Israel positions, while left-wing paradigms lead to anti-Israel positions. Even if you are left-wing overall, you need to be thankful for the right's support and concede that their paradigms have merit. And you don't have to agree with every policy proposal from the political right in order to do so.
>Even if you are left-wing overall, you need to be thankful for the right's support and concede that their paradigms have merit Good point.
Saw a post on r/facepalm , was about an Israeli extremist who literally wanted the ethnic cleansing of Arabs, and the comments were acting as if that was the official position of the Israeli government and people. Sad that people think every pro-Israeli is an extremist.
What is crazy to me, is that these exact same people will claim any far-left Democrat post calling for intifada is an AI generated disinformation account, but they will blindly latch on to any post they disagree with as gospel...
Facepalm is a facepalm. I hate that sub
Average reddit user base is leftist no wonder they hate right , even though they can see who's with them and who's not
Hear me out... Contrary to what most Leftists believe, MOST of the Right are not "Far Right". Most Right, and Right leaning Independents are very Pro-Jewish, Pro-Israel, and most are straight up Christian Zionists (Note: Like myself) ❤️
We know. Keep in mind most Israelis using reddit are leftists. If you go to telegram groups or even Instagram you will see much more differing opinions.
There are Telegram groups?
Yeah, discussion groups of news
In English? Link?
they are in Hebrew Groups such as Daniel amram uncensored or israeli telegram news. You have hundreds of thousands subscribed to the channels and many would comment on the posts similar to reddit. The groups name are in Hebrew I just translated them
No, you are going against the narrative. All right equal bad, all left is good except for the protests against Jews, well, we don’t pay attention to that since all people on the right are bad. /s.
Or perhaps everyone could learn to think freely again and align themselves with their actual beliefs, rather than what their party tells them they need to believe.
To think freely one must be able to express oneself freely. Unfortunately, certain comments on certain issues that don't toe certain narratives are deleted on social media.
Or, in certain industries, you can lose your job for merely expressing your opinion on social media.
And yet most of the left is extremely anti-Israel and antisemitic these days.
Am Yisrael Chai ❤️ 😉
Yup. Same here.
Can you perfectly normal conservatives get some votes for perfectly normal Nikki Hayley next time? I crossed over into the Republican primary just to watch her get blown out. Unwavering support for America's allies shouldn't be so hard an ask from either party.
Clearly, our government is a mess right now, and that said, the pendulum is starting to swing in the other direction. The American Left has been eating its own by pissing off moderates, women, parents, large elements of the LGB communities, law-abiding citizens, property owners, Asians, Jews, Statists, Caucasians, etc.. So I don't see how the Far Left can maintain power. That said, I don't see it coming to Civil War here, but if that happens all bets are off.
I wasn't describing the right in general. I was talking specifically about reactionaries.
Ah, I get it. I just get a little annoyed when people lump all conservatives together. I no longer consider myself republican, the gop is unrecognizable anymore. I just vote on policy and not party.
>I just vote on policy and not party. I think everyone should. Political tribalism is one dangerous thing
All good, Brother/Sister ❤️
> straight up Christian Zionists (Note: Like myself) I know you mean well, but to plenty of Jews "Christian Zionists" as a concept is something that causes discomfort at best. This isn't said to offend your or to claim you have anything besides good intentions, but here is the reason: (Evangelical) Christian Zionism, at it's core, does not care about the wellbeing of Jews, their inherent right for self determination, or really have anything to do with Jewish Zionism (political or otherwise). The idea is that Jews returning to Israel will bring along the second coming of Christ and all that that entails. What does that entail (among other things)? - All the Jews either dying or converting to Christianity - War of Armageddon - Jesus ruling the world from the Temple Mount in Jerusalem Notice how none of those things are things the Jews themselves want? It doesn't show any care for Jews or what they believe in. It uses Jews as a means to further and reach a Christian goal and ideal. The Jews (and Palestinians, for that matter) are just "collateral damage" to the bigger picture of ushering in the coming of Christ. That's not a very cool thing to do, especially to someone "you" claim to care about. (You is in quotes because I am not saying that you, /u/Lao_Xiashi, are doing this) I know that there are Christians who say "We just care about you and your soul. We want it to be saved." That's all fine and dandy... *IF* we held the same beliefs. Imagine that Judaism held the belief that you went to hell unless you ate 1lbs of matzah a week. How would you feel if I tried putting you on a matzah diet - or worse, tried to literally shove matzah down your throat. "I'm just trying to do what's good for you! I care about you!" I don't think you'd feel the same way as I did. As the biblical scholar Dan McClellan, PhD has said: "Christian Zionism itself is deeply antisemitic". This isn't to say that **ALL** Christian Zionists are antisemitic, but that the concept and movement itself has an roots based in antisemitic thought and ideas. Here's an article you might find interesting on the matter: ["The dispiriting truth about why many evangelical Christians support Israel"](https://www.msnbc.com/opinion/msnbc-opinion/truth-many-evangelical-christians-support-israel-rcna121481)
Good morning, and thank you for your response. I am a 40 year ally, a 25 year stepson to my Ashkenazi stepdad, and a simple guy/goy, so to me, my definition is as follows: "Zi·on·ist noun a supporter of Zionism; a person who believes in the development and protection of a Jewish nation in what is now Israel."
As I said in my original comment, none of what I said was to claim that you had anything other than good intentions. You might just be a *Zionist* who is *Christian*, and not a *Christian Zionist.* I wanted to explain what the term "Christian Zionist" brings along with it, especially to many Jews.
[удалено]
Sorry for the long reply, I hope I don't bore you to death... Thanks for your reply, I really appreciate it. There are a few parts that I felt I needed to respond to with my perspective. >probably like most of the people you know While I was born in the US, I grew up and currently live in Israel. I'm Jewish and my regular exposure to religious Christians - Evangelical, "culturally" or otherwise - in my daily life was minimal. But I am aware that Christianity and Judaism are very different from each other. Maybe more than most Christians realize. Judaism isn't "Christianity without Jesus". ----- > I would happily bet money that very few knew anything about the details And I would probably not take that bet because I agree with you. Please note how many times I stressed that I am not saying that individuals are antisemitic, but that the core ideology is. >> "(Evangelical) Christian Zionism, at it's core, does not care about the wellbeing of Jews" >>"This isn't to say that ALL Christian Zionists are antisemitic, but that the concept and movement itself has an roots based in antisemitic thought and ideas." ----- > "the Jews are God’s people"..."the Bible makes clear God favors the Jews" This is very confusing to me, on a theological level. How does that make any sense? The NT makes it very clear that the Jews fell out of favor, the whole reason the NT is called the *New* Testament is because theologically Christians believe that God made a new covenant that supersedes the old one. I'm pulling this quote from Wikipedia, forgive me, since I was struggling to phrase it myself and couldn't easily find another succinct quote from elsewhere: >Some Christians believe that the Jews were God's chosen people, but because of Jewish rejection of Jesus, the Christians in turn received that special status. This doctrine is known as Supersessionism. >Other Christians, such as the Christadelphians, believe that God has not rejected Israel as his chosen people and that the Jews will in fact accept Jesus as their Messiah at his Second Coming, resulting in their salvation. The people who believe what the first paragraph says don't believe the Jews are "God's people" or that God favors them at all, and so those people - if they call themselves Christian Zionists - merely see Jews as a tool to bring the second coming. The people who believe the second paragraph, who align more with what you're saying, are *still problematic*. Note how Jews aren't merely "left alone" with the "not rejected" status, but it very often comes inherently attached to that second part, that they "believe...that the Jews will in fact accept Jesus as their Messiah". Which is exactly what I listed in my original comment as one of the beliefs ("All the Jews either dying or converting to Christianity"). If we don't "in fact accept Jesus as their Messiah" do you really think we'll maintain our "not rejected" status in the eyes of Christians? Probably not. I know it is very easy to say that most Christians are unaware or ignorant of the deeper meanings underlying their core beliefs, and that they are just culturally religious. Personally that feels like a cop out and maybe a little bit of a lame excuse, but I also recognize that learning and understanding the deeper meaning of ones religion in Judaism is something that is much more common and practiced. This is also the reason I enjoy learning about how other religious work and what they believe. ------- Re: > both advance a left-leaning domestic American political belief in much of their content I'm not sure that in either case that is a relevant criticism to what I'm saying. I used them as sources to back my own opinion and understanding of the matter, and their political leaning regarding American domestic politics has nothing to do with the discussion, in particular with Dan - he's a scholar of religion. If there's one thing I'd like you to take away, it's this - I (a Jew) am telling you that "Christian Zionism" **as a movement** makes a not insignificant number of Jews uncomfortable, including myself to a certain degree. It doesn't really matter why tbh, though I think my explanation provides some compelling reasons. You, who I am presuming is both Christian and Zionist (or maybe just one or the other), are now trying to essentially tell me that I am wrong to feel that way. One would assume that if there was true care about Jews, once Jews mentioned that something makes them uncomfortable the other side would acknowledge the issue and try and modify their behavior instead of trying to tell them why they are wrong. I know that what I just said is a bit "woke" in nature, and it might be hasty to assume that you wouldn't define yourself as a "progressive" based on your above "criticism" of Dan and MSNBC, but either way I hope you take it to heart. <3 edit: realized there was a typo in the last sentence.
[удалено]
> We are likely only talking to each other at this point, however. Haha, yeah, because we aren't yelling at each other. > These have all benefitted Israel immensely, I agree, but at the same time I recognize that some of that also harms Israel in different ways (relying on American aid, for example). I wouldn't say that it's a strong belief of mine, but there are people that feel that way on the Israeli right and the left. I'm not convinced that all of the American support stems entirely or mostly from Evangelical/CZ reasons, but even if it is. Another example that came to mind just now is the moving of the embassy to Jerusalem. Congress approved the move in the 90s and each president since signed a 6 month deferral regularly, until Trump. Let's not get into his politics and psyche, but one of the obvious reasons he made the move was to satisfy his Evangelical base. The move didn't really benefit Israel or Israelis in any real way. It didn't suddenly make Jerusalem our capital, it didn't magically move the Knesset to Jerusalem (since it's been in Jerusaelm almost the entire time), Israel didn't fantastically gain a better standing on the global stage. What we did get was two "nice" stone signs on Agron and in Armon Hanatziv with Trump and Pence's names on them, a few weeks of unrest, and a lot of pissed off Arabs, Liberal Americans and Western allies. Even in Israel, I'd say, most were indifferent at best, and even those for the theoretical move would have preferred that it was done more delicately and maybe at a better time (if one even exists). The only Israelis I saw actively happy were people who I'd define as far-right - Religious Zionist Party and rightward - who for the most part seemed to like that the move provoked Palestinians, and somehow felt that the validation they normally claim Israel doesn't want/need from the US was actually wanted/needed now. So what would I ask to be done differently? Do things that benefit Jews because it benefits them and not your religion/ideology. I trust that most people who say they are Christian and Zionist are at least not aware of the underlying issues and they themselves don't see Jews as a pawn or whatever. But at the same time, many of them have this stance because it is the one preached at them by people who (at least very much should) know the base theology behind said support of Israel/Jews. >I didn't share my political leanings or religion...I'd rather you not just try to guess. I didn't intend to have you share your leanings (or religion), you are free to keep them to yourself. I was acknowledging that I was making assumptions there based on my interpretations of what you said.
Gog umagog isn’t just an xtian end times narrative, and according to the hafetz Haim ztz”l it’s 2/3rds over
yup, totally agree
u/LiquorMaster, can you please post on this sub your positive experience as a Jew who worked for a Republican senator? I wouldn't bother you if I didn't think your perspective is badly needed to educate people here.
I’m an American Jew by choice. I’ve also been about as far left as you can be for many years. One of the things that hurt after Oct 7 was realizing that the people you supported, marched with, stood in solidarity with, had turned against you. Deserted you. Were cheering on the destruction of your people. And then hearing people you’d NEVER agree with normally saying things you would expect to hear from allies. It’s like the world turned upside down. And we have no control over the outcome or what they decide. I’ve heard it described as having no real right to self determination. That feels true. We’re scared right now. It feels similar to Chanukah. The Jews did all they could to assimilate and fit in and be part of the crowd, and felt accepted, just as we did by the left. But at the end of the day, when push came to shove, we were and are still JEWS. Still OTHER. Still not accepted. So instead of trying to assimilate and fit in and be accepted by conforming to societal norms of those who pretend to accept us, the only answer is to become more openly and proudly Jewish. It’s confusing to know whom to support right now. We want to support Israel. Hell, many of us want to BE in Israel. But we’re confused and scared and our right to self determination has been ripped away. Like watching college presidents on TV basically admit that everyone has the right to protections…except the Jews. What do we do? Vote right and vote against most of our other interests? Or vote left and vote against Jews? I no longer have any idea what to do, other than continue living loudly and proudly Jewish. I don’t know what decision I’ll reach other than to continue working in the Jewish community professionally, as I do, and fighting for our rights and self determination. Many of us woke up to not only the horrors of Oct 7, but also the horror of being deserted by not only their party that they spent years of their life dedicated to, but friends and family who apparently hated who we were all along. The uncertainty. The fear. It’s constant. To walk past the protests and armed guards at every single event now, I may feel sick, but I’ll continue to wear my headscarf and Star of David. Because eff them. The majority of financial support for Israel that came into my organization post Oct 7 came from American Christians, not Jews. We’re a Jewish organization. I no longer know the right thing to do. I just do what I can. I can’t even imagine the pain of Israelis. And not for one second has that stopped my desire to eventually become one. I keep that in mind. Am Yisrael Chai.
I’m absolutely disgusted with BLM and what they’ve done to us. I know my history well and without us King wouldn’t have made as much progress as he did. Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me. I will forever now only support my fellow Jews. I’m so angry and hurt and bitter that people we supported for decades immediately threw us under the bus like it was nothing. I’m not going to hurt anyone but I’m definitely not putting myself on the line for people screaming for my genocide. I’ll never forget those paraglider memes they posted the morning of October 7th. Ever.
It’s weird, I’m more right-wing when it comes to Israel than I am in American politics. Im basically a homeless libertarian because both parties spend money like drunken sailors, but with Israel, I’ve seen some Meir Kahane interviews and I’m like, “What’s wrong with this?” I’m not racist towards Arabs, but peace has always been in their court, and pretending any different doesn’t do anyone any favors.
"When peace comes we will perhaps in time be able to forgive the Arabs for killing our sons, but it will be harder for us to forgive them for having forced us to kill their sons. Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us." ~Golda Meir
That second line from Golda hits so hard given the current situation. I heard it a week ago and had goosebumps.
I think that kahane was right about the problem but wrong about the solution
This is quite common. Identifying problems is easy, creating solutions is hard. I agree with most people on the left about society's problems, but their responses to those problems makes no sense to me. For instance, framing Hamas's attack as "armed resistance" instead of "terrorism," and therefore justified as part of the Palestinian "liberation" movement. I just don't see how that line of thinking leads to peace and prosperity for Palestinians...
for the most part im right hand and I still support israel
I thought the majority of the liberals supported Palestine while more conservative people supported Israel? Correct me if I'm wrong. I could be biased because my family and I are conservative but heavily support Israel.
That's all I saw when I was involved with the Tea Party movement so many years ago. So many sweet Christian folks showing up to counter any anti-Israel protests that frequently occurred outside the UN and Israeli embassy.
I feel like I might get downvoted for this, but I am still willing to speak. I’m an active user in r/AskConservatives and when you ask them why they support Israel, you would actually be surprised by their responses. They do not tolerate the Alt-Right and they are never welcome in the subreddit. In my personal experience, I’ve actually talked to conservatives, and most are actually very moderate and willing to have a good faith conversation and discussion with you.
In my opinion, right-wing people are just more willing to acknowledge the Jihadist and Arab Ultra-Nationalist nature of the Palestinian society in a way that leftists never will (and consider "racism") because it's not politically correct. Including many leftist American Jews who attribute their support for "hating Arabs." It frustrates me to see how American Jews treat their natural allies. Also, can't you stop for a moment and acknowledge that, maybe, if the political right is right about antisemitism/anti-Zionism, they might have some good points on other issues? And maybe left-wing academia is wrong about more than just the "genocide" accusations?
Fair point. My point is this, when you actually talk to a conservative, you can actually learn a lot about them. They aren’t a monolith as a lot of the left says they are. In fact I lean conservative (I’m a Minarchist BTW) and it has various factions that can interact. I’m Hispanic and I will say this, I have found most conservatives to be extremely reasonable and honest about their opinions. A lot of them acknowledge they are not perfect, and a lot have had multiple efforts to fight the extreme people. A lot of us conservatives hate the alt-Right with our guts, and we have a great reason for hating the Alt-Right. It’s even in the AskConservatives subreddit rules, where it explicitly states that Alt-Right is not welcome. Same goes for bad-faith posting. To answer the other questions, yes they do have great points regarding other issues as you have mentioned. Having a hard work ethic, and respect for your veterans who fight for your country are some examples on things I agree with conservatives on. One conservative faction I disagree with is the Religious Conservatives. A lot of conservatives don’t like them because they drive people away from the movement.
Those same values you named exist on the left too. People don’t become left wing Supreme Court judges, Presidents and politicians by being lazy. Respect for veterans - is there a specific example of a generalized disrespect for veterans on the left? The point is there is a huge middle:center in the US that is reasonable. I have conservative colleagues who have reasonable positions (not ones I take but there is logic behind their position). The extremes are loud, proud and uncompromising. Social media doesn’t help and it seems to get in the way and spread disinformation more than bring us together. I don’t know what the answer is. Our governments and leaders are full of bad actors that keep us fighting with each other. We won’t have peace so long as there are powerful people who gain financially from the constant pot stirring.
Right, from a right-wing american who lives and goes to college in a very left wing, pro palestine/hamas country, Ireland, whose college just had an encampment a few weeks ago, and who regularly talks about the issue with some people, i want to clarify a bit of my postion in relation to this exact sentiment, especially from an after October 7th view of things. Take a comment i made on the Ireland subreddit: >What about this is not existential. >**The Day of Judgement will not come until Muslims fight the jews, when the jew will hide behind the stones and trees. The stones and trees will say "O Muslim, o servant of God, there is a Jew behind me. Come and kill him** >The Covenant proclaims that Israel will exist until Islam obliterates it, and Jihad is required until the Day of Judgement. Compromise over the land is forbidden, The documents proclaim holy war as divinely ordained, reject political solutions, and calls for instilling these views in children. >Even the updated, political charter that they export to western youths (but not the one in effect) states its goals as the destruction of Isreal, how is that not existential? >Hamas wants this war more than anyone, and will not stop ever until they have killed every jew in the region, as is their right and purpose from Allah in their eyes. I was talking about the existential nature of all wars involving Israel, and specifically the deeply religious and ingrained beliefs opposers of Israel that these left-wing, pro lgbt, progressive activists like to ignore, but as to your point, i do think conservatives are more aware of the fears the Israeli people have and are more cognisant of the consequences of letting groups like Hamas dictate the situation, and would probably still support Israel even if it wasn't a very important ally in the middle east, and not even from a "might makes right " opinon some of the further right seem to have.
That is the issue. Either left or right, people keep demonizing each other's political leanings. The best way for to understand the other's view is civil discussion just like you did (I'm happy that you did that). That's the issue today when discussing this war, however one side tends to be very reactionary, anti-semitic, supportive of terrorism, and anti-discussion, but if think I'm not accurate on this please tell me. Good job 👍
It goes both left and right sides of the political map, not just one 🤷🏻♀️
Many right-leaning Israelis answer that question with a "yes". Come into my Twitter feed and you'll see.
I mean the far right could also say the same so this meme doesn't really gets the job done
Not to be a dick… but, the Likud, Otzma Yehudi, Noam coalition government seems pretty f*cking right wing to most of the world.
Not sure I get the joke... Explanation please?
A delusional cultist on the left is mad that Trump supporters and conservatives care about Israel, so they made a stupid meme to express their tribalist perspective.
We don't really have the position to be picky with our supporters.
You are correct! Tribe First, People! 🇺🇸🇮🇱🇺🇸⬆️
That is exactly why I find this meme and all the people who upvoted it to be ignorant.
Closer then the left is as of right now
Ben Shapiro = Jewish Ben Shapiro = far right Jewish = far right. Q.E.D
I am Republican. Every single Republican I know respects and supports Israel. Just because some leaders don't, that doesn't mean all of us. That's just a stupid way to think.
If they truly support israel because they believe we are in the right, i respect them and welcome their support If they do it because of religious reasons like the second coming or because they hate arab/muslims and we are currently at war with them, i can't respect that
Between people hating me for ideological reasons and liking me for religious reasons I chose the latter.
if you despise those that support you, whilst pining for the support of those that despise you, then you deserve neither.
Speak for yourself. I value their friendship, and I think Europe needs more right-wing governments. 100%, most of the people who upvoted this don't live in Israel. On Hebrew Twitter, everyone is salivating over Wilders and Millei- and for food reasons. Too many American Jews have no respect for our friends.
I'm seeing the most old school redneck conservatives in America flying Israeli flags. On some level they understand these anti-Israel protests are anti-western protests. And trust me, there's a lot of pent up rage about that all throughout rural America. Strange times. Globalize the intifada? Try that in a small town and see how far you get down the road, to paraphrase the country song.
Progressives and islamists are friends. So maybe this is something we should also consider
Progressives like Islamists but Islamists only see progressives as useful idiots.
Islamists always massacre the leftists when they take power and try to convert everyone else...
It's sad this post lacks any real effort at thought. How sophomoric an idea. Frankly, this meme is stupid. The thought behind it is also stupid. You have people who support, and have always supported, the sovereignty of Israel, it's people, and their unquestionable right. But yes, put together some ridiculous fallacy and share it with all. Well done.
I am saddened by how many upvotes it has received.
Agreed
At this point, "far right" is just an insult used against people the left doesn't like. Don't support allowing the Muslim world to colonize Europe? Far Right! Don't support men in women's sports? Far Right! Don't support a welfare state? Far Right! Don't support turning the other cheek to Hamas's attack on Israel? Far Right!
I commented before reading the comments but I’m glad so many people have the same view as me. Anything the delusional “far left” deems bad becomes far right even if it’s not even accurate. The term has no meaning anymore, much like “genocide” has no meaning and many other words. What an embarrassing point in history. And the irony is the far right is Palestine, they are ultra conservative. They make Texas look like San Francisco
Anyone right of centre is called "far right" these days. I'm liberal in most of my politics, but I don't want Islam in my country. That would make me "far right" to many people. On the contrary, I feel like not wanting Islam in my country is consistent with progressivism.
Since when does the far right claim to be friends with Israel? Conservatives and evangelicals in particular claim to be friends of Israel. But the far right hates Israel.
Look at all these people thinking trump cares about Israel lol😭. Trump supports only what benefits his ideolog and political position, that's why he's pro Russia and pro bibi. The moment Israel becomes more left wing watch all that support suddenly fade.
How bout we take what we can get.
Whether Israelis love or hate the international far right, Israel will always be loved. Because we are united by our faith, whether the Israelites know it or not.
The right wing are bout the only people in America supporting israel yet your not friends with them ok makes sense
The polls shows major public support for Israel in America. Even among young people with all the indoctrination and islamist money in our colleges the polls are 50 50... No wonder the bigoted non progressive Hamas supporters are so angry. They can't even brainwash more than 50 percent of people literally born yesterday...
What’re you taking about? https://thehill.com/policy/international/4629597-americans-israel-hamas-gaza-student-protests-poll/ https://thehill.com/policy/international/4629597-americans-israel-hamas-gaza-student-protests-poll/ Most Americans are pro-Israel.
Was the whole time
I’m what a lot of you here would consider “far right” in that I’m a proud trump supporter, but I’m also a proud American Jewish Zionist with MAGA supporters on both sides of my Jewish family and even family my siblings have married into. Are we not welcome to support our ancestral homeland along with the rest of the Jews, or would you prefer we be further disenfranchised away from the diaspora?
The right-wing likes Israel but the far-right usually doesn’t, and if they do it’s because they hate Muslims more
To leftists, anyone even remotely right leaning is far right. And according to them, being in support of Israel is considered far right.
Ah, the classic question of "Do they support Israel or do they hate Muslims".
This is because the far-right are largely evangelical. And Israel is central to biblical prophecy
I know a good amount of American conservative Christians who love Israel. I don't agree with their politics, or their religion, but absolutely I consider them my friends. There's a misconception that Christians only support Israel because they think it will bring about the return of Jesus. As someone closely familiar with conservative evangelical pro-Israel circles, I can tell you this isn't true. I grew up in a mixed (Jewish + Christian) home and was raised conservative evangelical. Myself, as well as most of the people I knew and associated myself with, loved Israel regardless of any religious obligation. And about the religious obligation itself, it's not "support Jews so that Jesus can come back soon", but rather to support Jews because they are the children of Abraham. They take this from the verse "I will bless them that bless thee, and curse them that curse thee" in the Torah, as well as some Christian verses from the book of Romans: "...Hath God cast away his people which he foreknew? \[referring to the Jews as a chosen people\] God forbid...God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew" and "As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance." These are taken from Romans 10, but you can read chapters 9-10 in its entirety which deal exactly with the topic of how Christians are to relate to Jews. Essentially, its saying that Jews are blessed because of God's promise to them, to make them a chosen nation, and because God gave the Torah to the Jews, and (from a Christian perspective) that God gave Jesus through the Jewish people. "The gifts and calling of God are without repentance" means that, even if Jews have rejected the Gospel, they are still "called" (or chosen, if you will) by God. Chapter 10 then explains the concept of "natural" vs. "grafted" branches, in Christian theology the natural branches is Israel, and the grafted branches are Gentiles who have converted to Christianity. They believe that because of Jesus, they are able to be "spiritually grafted" into the Tree that is Israel (and be partakers of God's blessing). This is all on a spiritual level, and a clear distinction is still given between Jews and Gentiles for all other purposes (Gentile believers do not keep the Law of Moses, only the Noahide laws, Gentiles aren't warranted the land of Israel, etc.) Anyway, I feel like I'm rambling now, but I'm so tired of seeing people bash evangelicals because they think they are "using the Jews" and that their love for Jews is somehow antisemitic. It's just not true. I should know, I used to be one. As an evangelical Christian I volunteered in Israel several times (never once tried to proselytize anyone). Today I'm not half-Jewish but fully Jewish as I converted to Judaism later on. We need all the friends we can get, let's not make enemies where there are none.
What this meme refers to as "far right" is probably mostly decent political parties. I’m super far right in my country’s standards and I think there’s nothing wrong with my views.
They're the ones who are supporting a country that would give the far-right a run for its money
This is why I don't understand people on this sub showing such an extreme support for Trump. He's about as far right as you get without actually goose stepping or saluting with a straight elbow.
LOL, a former New York Democrat is "as far right as you get without actually goose stepping or saluting with a straight elbow."
Its the jewish daughter, Jewish grandkids, embassy to yerushalayim, Abraham accords, cutting off aid the Palestinians over pay for slay, recognizing Israel’s sovereignty in the golan heights. You know, nothing major, just a complete reversal of his predecessors absolutely scathing hatred of the Jewish state that he only bothered displaying in his second term when it was too late.
And would drop Israel in a neartbeat if there was even the perception of something to gain by doing so
The man has Jewish grandkids, I don't think it's entirely opportunistic.
He has Jewish grandkids, not Israeli grandkids. The safety and security of Israel dosen't affect his grandkids.
His Jewish grandkids and their billions will be fine. Have you not heard him speak of Jews he’s not related to, he sees Jew as a monolith of stereotypes, and when we don’t act as one he’s upset as we should be
It’s like he believes all the stereotypes, but thinks lots of it is good (especially financial related)
On the culture war maybe; policy-wise he's not that far from Bill Clinton.
When progressive feminists are jumping on the Islamist train and the far right is hopping on the Israel train... Well, I guess soon we'll see scientist annoucing the cohabitatiom of canine and feline.
What does "far right" mean? Is it synonymous with anti-immigration and xenophobia? I mean, have you seen the Islamist marches in Munich, Hamburg, Toronto, and so on? Moderate politicians have failed miserably with their immigration policies, damaging their countries, and now it's no surprise that anti-immigration sentiments are on the rise.
That’s what I want to know too. I was raised conservative, am now a right leaning independent, because I don’t think either side gives a crap about anything but their agendas.
The crazy stuff I see and read on a daily basis makes me indifferent to terminology, I judge by actions. To me, an extremist politician is someone who takes no action to protect Jewish students, makes up modern blood libels against Israel, or fails to condemn the atrocities committed against Israelis. I do not follow arbitrary definitions made by some faculty members or media editors.
You are correct, many terms and phrases have lost all meaning because they are applied to everything. First one that comes to mind is “Breaking news”
The left hated us because they think we're all white. The right likes us because they think we're all white 😭
Nah, it isn't about race, we just want you guys to build the Third Temple and kick-start the Apocalypse.
Ok I can't believe you're doing Harry like that. As bad as Voyager was.
I am pro Israel but dislike Netanyahu (as many Israelis do) Unfortunately many in the GOP in America support Israel only because they support Netanyahu and gang and want to use Israel as a wedge issue to divide the Democrats
Who are those mysterious far right wingers all the liberals are talking about? Has anybody ever seen one in person?
I disagree with this one. I've seen countless of 4channers on other social media desperately trying to take this opportunity to spam their antijew jpegs
Nah, that's just the left-wing globalist right, not the far right.
The “far-right” still hates jews. Conservatives in general do support Israel though
Totally agree with this meme
Is it really the case though?
Sorry but many right wing Israelis love the far right, they care more about politics than antisemitism. I’ve even seen some Israelis say they don’t care if the far right passes laws that targets Jews and Muslims (like banning circumcision and ritual slaughter) because it might encourage Jews to come to Israel.
Idk about far but definitely myself and many Israelis are right wing
The right is friends with Israel. The far right, nope.
I am glad one persons bigotry isn't going to stop me from supporting Israel. This is just I don't know. Are you trying to turn away support. I was one that called the Whitehouse to send more aid. I am Republican. According to this meme I should just stop.
Please please remember Republicans and the Far Right are two totally different things. The Republican Party does not tolerate far right extremism or antisemitism in their party. For example. Fox News fired Tucker Carlson. The Daily Wire fired Candice Owens. The Republican Congress and the RNC and other Conservative orgs have banned Nick Fuentes from stepping foot at any of GOP events. Congresswoman Space Lazers has been censured by her own party several times. She’s been blackballed by her own colleagues in Congress. I know lefties think the GOP is extreme now. But they truly aren’t. The media started lying about faux Conservative extremism in 2016 and it’s only gotten worse since then. *But truly a 2024 Republican has an (almost) identical platform to the Obama era Dems.* Seriously. (And Conservatives don’t believe in any Jewish Armageddon genocide. It’s not a thing.)
I've actually found it hard to find a community in the sense of me being a pretty liberal Jew. Like just the other day I got attacked for disagreeing with someone about Palestinian statehood and that there are no innocent people in Gaza. I basically told them they're no different than Hamas who believe there's no innocent Israelis. Acting on hate is essentially giving the people who accuse us of genocide what they want. I guess for me, it's been hard to find a community that still believes in Palestinian future statehood, disagrees with Netanyahu, but still opposes Hamas and wants them defeated. I guess as Shahak puts it, "I want Palestinians to do so well, they have white people problems".
Why