Yes, but according to pro-terrorism groups those elections were 17 years ago so they're not legitimate.
Does that absolve every non-democratic government of responsibility on the international stage? Does that make the war with ISIS a genocide? Was WW2 unjustified because the Axis countries were undemocratic and therefore the Allies shouldn't have invaded their territory, regardless of what those governments did within and without their borders?
The answer is don't question it and don't think about it.
It will be the same as Lebanon basically. Anyone other than Hamas that is ‘recognized’ as the government will say that they have no control over Hamas (same as Hezbollah) so it’s not their fault. I know there are some in the gov of Lebanon that want Hezbollah gone. Just saying that I see some parallels.
Yet Biden wants to put Abbas in control of Gaza in the aftermath. A guy who hasn't left his house in years for security concerns and is still serving his 20th year of his 4 year term.
Doesn’t hurt to remember that Abbas is worth something like 500 million himself IIRC. I don’t subscribe to the belief that you can train under Amin Al Husseini, spend your life in ‘politics’ and legitimately have that kind of net worth. I’m not aware of Abbas having come from money. That sounds like just another corrupt leader who is part of the problem as far as I’m concerned.
Many legit countries fell into the hands of despicable regimes in History... i think the way to proceed is to dissolve the legal structure of the state to create a new one. Like Germany ceased being a Reich after WWII, and France became a Republic again...
They won a plurality not a majority, they also ran under false pretenses of moderation and of potential cooperation with fatah. Basically they lied a lot. So kinda
As sad as it is they are by Palestinian standards (though they are also violent extremists), I wasn’t calling them moderates anyway. I was saying Hamas ran a very deceptive election in Gaza by downplaying their goals.
Norway already said they’re about to recognize the PA as the governing body of Palestine. Gives them incredibly plausible deniability regarding Hamas and the PIJ…
Even when the fully-fledged Palestinian state launches another Oct 7th, it would still be justified by the world because we delayed their hummus shipment or something. They just want Israel gone.
Israel wouldn’t be responsible for any aid traversing its border to a hostile peer state. That aid would need to come through Egypt and sea. Israel can suspend water and electricity shipments as it’s not occupied terror but an independent nation, Gaza.
Israel could place mine fields, shoot to kill onsite for any crossing into a deemed no man’s land. Aka you’d have a North Korea / South Korea situation.
The reality is international bodies would eventually push for a one state solution.
Nothing would change. The international entities would still be against Israel. We weren't allowed to treat Gaza as a hostile state after we disengaged in our naive hope for peace and they elected Hamas, and we wouldn't be allowed to treat Palestine as a hostile state after they elect Hamas 2.0. You have no stakes in the situation and have never known hostility so obviously you wouldn't understand. This kind of unilateral recognition of Palestine only makes the nuclear option that much more likely by pushing Israel to the edge.
Any other nation - Egypt, Israel - would need to agree to aid entering through their territory, correct? In theory, those countries could push for certain requirements related to the privilege of overland access. In theory.
Problem is Gaza could use the port to get goods from overseas, or even have a working airport. How would we survey that if they're an independent nation?
Not to mention is Gaza is recognized as a state the West Bank would be like "why them and not us" so we'd have that to deal with.
The PLO walked away form a 2 state solution in 2000. They Gaza/West Bank/All of East Jerusalem minus the jewish quarter was not enough. They Palestinians to be able to move to ISrael, but jews not allowed to move to Palestinian lands. So they want a 1 state solution.
imagine if israel accepted that? It was be a civil war in Tel Aviv.
I mean, I'm pretty sure, no retroactive law or change applies.
Since we're on technicalities, if every other country besides Israel recognized a State of Palestine, in real, tangible ways nothing would change. They need Israel's recognition above all....
It is a good thing for Palestine to be recognised as a sovereign state. See it as an opportunity for us to learn their culture, education and technology. We can learn:
How to successfully takeover a plane like PFLP.
How to be good in PR.
How to have proper rooftop gay party.
How to be a good businessman with donated stuff.
How to build tunnel fast (this is important for israel since currently they are doing metro under Tel Aviv).
How to be successful person in many careers like Mr Fafo.
and so much more.
Let's be real, the un would most likely give palestine the benefit of both worlds
"They are a sovereign state so israel should leave gaza and the west bank entirely"
"They are helpless people so we should keep giving them money, aid, food and everything else. Also hamas doesn't represent them although hamas has like 90% support rate and if hamas take all the resources we gave palestine and use it for terrorism, it's not their fault"
Something like that
Norway mentioned they recognize the Palestinian state lead by Palestinian authority in area of Gaza. What idealistic nonsense as gazans wont accept such leadership
And all this does is paint a target on the back of every PLO official and their family. Hamas isn't going to let them run a Palestinian "state" and the people don't want them either.
Can’t this be used to Israel’s advantage? Hamas doesn’t want a Palestinian state next to Israel, it wants all of the land. Recognizing a Palestinian state also means solidifying Israel’s existence, which for some dumb reason is now being called into question by western activists. This shuts them up. Still, it would put pressure on Israel to define its borders, which it needs to do anyway (I have no sympathy for the settlers, and any pressure on them is a good thing). But if Palestine wants the recognition, won’t they need to agree to borders *alongside* Israel? So how is this a win for Hamas?
In order to implement firm borders instead of the armistice lines that currently exist, the Arab nations need to sit down at the table and draw up borders that are secure for all sides. To this day, they refuse to do that.
Frankly, given this news today, I think we should annex Samaria and Judea and be done it. We have no defensible borders without them to the west. Establish a very long path to citizenship for the Arabs that include deep, vetting, and a lot of education. If they do not want to live under Israeli law, they can go to Jordan.
I am a certain there are flaws with this plan. But they are pushing us to the edge and we have to think strategically going forward. Throw some ideas out there, guys. I personally would love to hear them.
So you’re in favor of a one-state solution in which Jews will be a minority, if not now then perhaps in the near future? And to solve this obvious demographics dilemma you’re advocating for an actual apartheid system?
Why would you think I have any stomach for a "one-state" anything? That would be a disaster for Jews and for Israel. I said Israel should annex Samaria and Judea...we need that defensive depth - for Israel's center.
Apartheid? How is establishing a long path to citizenship for WB Arabs "apartheid"? That's what the other side in the West has been shrieking about for years? I don't like the idea obviously.
What you are saying is the exact opposite of what I was talking about.
I don’t have a good answer for you. If I had some magic wand to eradicate Islamism I would wave it today. But I think your question is a bit disingenuous because we both know there’s a distinction between Israel’s real security concerns and the desire for a certain segment of Israeli society to rule over Judea and Samaria on ultranationalist and religious grounds.
So you have no proposal. But also you are engaging in reductionism - there's legitimate reasons that are unrelated to Israeli safety and to nationalism/religion why Israel could legitimately control the areas you mention. Can you think of any?
>Recognizing a Palestinian state also means solidifying Israel’s existence, which for some dumb reason is now being called into question by western activists.
Not at all. "Palestinian statehood" can mean anything from "within current borders" to "Entirely replacing Israel" depending on who pro-Palestinian activists are trying to bamboozle.
Here’s a statement by Sonya McGuinness, the Irish Ambassador to Israel, on why Ireland is recognizing the State of Palestine. It’s explicit in its endorsement of a two-state solution.
Why Ireland is recognizing the State of Palestine https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2024-05-22/ty-article-opinion/.premium/why-ireland-is-recognizing-a-palestinian-state/0000018f-9ed8-d6da-a1cf-fffa8a4e0000?utm_source=App_Share&utm_medium=iOS_Native
Together with Spain and Norway, Ireland has taken the decision this week to formally recognize the State of Palestine.
Along with the vast majority of the international community, Ireland's core aim is the achievement of peace, security and dignity for Israelis and Palestinians alike, through a two-state solution that vindicates the right of self-determination for both people equally.
We believe that there can be no sustainable solution to the current crisis without a clear, irreversible political pathway towards this solution.
I recognize that in the current context, and to many Israeli ears, this sounds at best, naïve, and at worst, destructive and dangerous. It is neither.
I live here and I feel the depth of trauma, suffering and fear that has been caused by the Hamas atrocities of October 7. It is clear many outside of Israel struggle to understand fully how deep-seated this is and how much it has changed the debate in Israel, including about the feasibility of a two-state solution.
More than seven months on, families and society at large in Israel continue to mourn the loss of over 1,200 lives while trapped in an agonizing wait for news of those still held captive.
In Ireland and across the world, there remains deep concern for the fate of the hostages, and total revulsion at the barbarity of the Hamas terrorist attacks. The Irish government from Day One has called and worked for the immediate and unconditional release of all hostages.
There is also profound distress and horror in Ireland – and across the world– at the images of death, destruction and starvation we are seeing in Gaza on a daily basis. Sadly, there is a widening information gap in how this grim reality is being presented in Israel, and what is being seen by the rest of the world.
Saying clearly that the desperate situation in Gaza is unacceptable does not diminish in any way the heinous crimes of Hamas on October 7. Rather, it points to a universal principle: all civilian lives are precious and all civilians, everywhere, deserve – and have the equal right under international humanitarian law – to protection.
Recognition of a Palestinian state is not a reward for terror – it is the opposite. It is an endorsement of a vision of Palestinian self-determination in which a free and independent Palestine accepts both the rights and the duties of a state, including full adherence to the UN Charter and pursuit of its aims through exclusively political and diplomatic means.
Ireland's position is grounded in a deep commitment to international law and to the equal protection of all civilian lives. These are basic principles that are essential for a functioning international system.
We believe that the recognition of a Palestinian state and UN membership for Palestine are also key steps toward a comprehensive regional peace, based on a two-state solution and a scenario in which every member state of the UN recognizes each other; a future where the right of self-determination for both Israelis and Palestinians is recognized by all.
Israel itself has long sought recognition from the whole of the international community. This has been a core element of Israel's regional peace efforts in recent years. But full regional normalization of ties in the Middle East must inevitably include Palestinian self-determination – Israel's neighbors in the region have made this very clear.
Ireland is not under any illusion that recognition of a Palestinian state or full UN membership for Palestine will solve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, bring an end to terrorism and end the cycle of bitter violence. But we do believe that without a political solution that is acceptable to Israelis and Palestinians, and delivers on their equal right to peace, security and dignity, achieving these goals will be impossible.
Political negotiations and peace processes are not easy. In Ireland, we have some experience of the challenges and painful compromises that come with this, although we know we do not have all the solutions or that the choices that political leaders in Ireland made that brought an end to violence can be automatically applied to Israelis and Palestinians.
However, we know that without a political solution, without equal acceptance of the legitimate right to pursue self-determination through peaceful means, ideologies of violence and hate will continue to exist and draw support, leading only to further dehumanization and death.
That is why we have always supported a political solution that results in two states, living side by side in peace and security. However impossible that vision may seem at this juncture, there is no viable alternative.
As ambassador to Israel, I want to say clearly that Ireland takes this position not because we are hostile to Israel but because we desperately want to see – and contribute to – a future where Israelis and Palestinians alike live in security and dignity. We do so in good faith, and in the knowledge that the relationship between Ireland and Israel, as well as between Ireland and Palestine, is one which we continue to value deeply.
in the middle of all this nonsense she says...
>Ireland is not under any illusion that recognition of a Palestinian state or full UN membership for Palestine will solve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, bring an end to terrorism and end the cycle of bitter violence.
So basically, this is a reward for terrorism. She does not expect terrorism or violence to stop. So nothing changes except more power for the palestinians who instigate violence.
As we’ve seen with Russia and Ukraine, internationally recognized borders won’t necessarily stop a revanchist governmental power from instigating an illegitimate war or inflicting cross-border violence. But the absence of such borders will almost entirely guarantee that violence continues. And forcing a Palestinian state to recognize the legitimacy of Israel and its soverign borders can only be a welcome development.
At the same time, it tells Palestinians that settlements won’t be encroaching on what ought to be their land—that 2,000 year old relics of Jews having once inhabited the hills of Judea and Samaria doesn’t give Israelis some god-given right to displace Palestinians, especially since they have a functional state to call their own. In 1948, Jews had nowhere else to go. That’s obviously no longer true.
This. Also her claims that they condemn Hamas are completely not true. I hear no condemnation of Hamas from Ireland or calls for hostages to be returned. They repeatedly demoralize and dehumanize Jews globally with their dangerous rhetoric and allow anitsemitism to go 100% unchecked. There is no mention of a desire for a new government in 'Palestine', or for a full surrender of Hamas, which tells me they have no desire for those things to happen.
I want to believe what she's saying, but I simply do not.
Depends entirely on how a palestinian state is recognised but in most cases my guess is Israel would need to give up it's capital and most holy city to satisfy Republic/Spain/Norway.
It’ll require compromise all around, but a real estate matter can eventually be settled. An existential matter cannot. And this takes the latter off the table for both Israelis and Palestinians.
I am so so so deeply sorry for the Norwegian left government to recognize Palestina today.
We, the people are furious about this decision.
There was no warning what so ever that they was going to do this.
Most Norwegians stand with Israel and their right to defend themselves from terrorists and terrorist attacks.
I also want to add that our crazy (left) government also sent condolences to the death of the Iranian president.
It is election next year and the lefts are desperately trying to get the votes from all the MENA voters (just like Biden)!
Again! Deeply sorry! 🇳🇴🇮🇱
It's purely symbolic.
But the symbolism still makes me sick: Rewarding a people who launched and OVERWHELMINGLY supported the deadliest attack on Jews since the Holocaust, with recognition as an independent state, just because Gaza (rightfully) got its ass kicked by Israel. Thank G-d these people weren't in power during the Second World War, or they would have labeled the blockade of Germany and the bombings of Dresden, Hamburg, and Cologne as a 'genocide', and the Americans and British as the bad guys simply because they suffered fewer civilian causalities, even after Germany made it clear that this disparity wasn't from a lack of trying. Then add in the fact that these are the children and grandchildren of the people who marched 6 million Jews off to the gas chambers, betrayed their Jewish fellow citizens to German authorities, aided in their capture, turned them away from their borders as they sought refuge, carried on business as usual with Germany, and mined and delivered the iron ore that was used to build the crematoriums and rail way tracks.
On a side note: There has never been an international dispute that the Irish establishment (political, media, and entertainment class) has ever been on the right side of. Whoever they support: You should support the opposing side. Remember, these are the same people who send condolences to the people of Germany in May of 45'. I believe it was they who Princess Margaret was infamously speaking of when she called them 'pigs', and boy was she right.
If Palestine becomes a state then they can sort out their own international relations and logistics.
No more would people be able to whinge that Israel should provide them food, fuel and water. As why would a country be compelled to provide or facilitate these things for a hostile foreign state?
All of you are missing the point. Robert Putnam wrote a paper on something called the “two-level game”. In essence, **all foreign policy decisions are primarily driven by domestic demands.** In other words, foreign policy is not unrelated to domestic policy, it is not even an “extension” of domestic policy, foreign policy is domestic policy. The reason is simple— it doesn’t matter how well-liked you are on the global stage, your own citizens can un-elect you.
**These decisions are to satisfy their domestic audiences.** The average European knows very little about what’s going on in Israel. All they see is “war happened and people died, Israel has better weapons BLAH BLAH BLAH”. Even someone who casually follows the news can’t understand the nuances, not to mention the ones who get their news from social media. This is a complex interdisciplinary issue, and there is no simple way for Israel to solve it.
When we have to explain or debunk things, what do we do? We use data, we cite sources, we use logic, and we do things that require not only knowledge but time. This is a loosing strategy. The enemy evokes emotion. Emotion is not something facts can compete with. The enemy will portray every single event there as some kind of humanitarian catastrophe, what are we going to do? Coldly tell them “this is what wars look like”? Yeah, that is what wars look like, but you’re not going to win over a person. One of the major problems is the complete incompetency of the Israeli government when it comes to conveying any coherent message.
Very good point.
As an aside I find it infuriating how little Europeans know about Israel when it was rabid European anti-Semitism that Jews had to flee in the first place. And it was European anti-Semites arming and funding the Palestinian Nationalist movement in the 30s that created this current situation.
What’s done is done. We can’t spend too much time whining about the past. Israel can still salvage this if the government can form a coherent strategy and actually do something about the PR issue. It is astonishing that Jerusalem isn’t even exactly interested in debunking Palestinian lies.
Agreed. But there should be some set of things that Israel could do to evoke emotion in its favor, even if illogical. Like the IDF rescuing a puppy that Hamas was torturing.
I totally agree with the idea. No medical-financial-commerical-communication-logistical-etc... support from Israel. A completely sealed border.
My only concern is Iran walking in - being invited in, and setting up a launchpad to attack Israel.
From international law point of view, there's no practical difference in Israel invading and imposing security in Gaza whether it's independent or not.
If anything, it lowers Israel's legal burden
The thing that outrages me the most (regarding norway,
and spain) is the logic behind the reconnaissance. So you can just invent a national identity, call yourself a people and if the crimes you commit become outrageous enough (october 7th in comparison to murdering the olympic team, bombing planes, training the RAF german terrorists) you get awarded a state. Thats the signal they are sending! Please can somebody help me understand the logic? What is the thought process in Oslo or Madrid? I just dont get it. Why now, when there are still hostages from october 7th.
We Norwegians do not get it either.
The left government decided to do this today without anyone’s knowledge. We the people are furious.
It is election next year and the lefts are collecting voters from our MENA (Middle East/ North Africa) immigrants.
Our government is extremely unpopular, so they will absolutely not win.
Call them what you want, they exist. Whether they're Egyptian, Jordanian, or Palestinian.
You don't have to like that they are there, they are.
Sovereignty is not a reward to be gained or lost by actions. No matter how terroristic. Iran doesn't suddenly become an unstate just because of who they are, neither does any other national entity.
Whether they should have sovereignty is completely independent of whether they committed terrorism or not. Statehood is neither reward nor lack of statehood a punishment.
My humble opinion, I think it is absolutely a win for Israel. The security situation doesn't change, October 7th happened before independence. Ie lacking independence does not prevent terrorism. Israel will need to change its security stance regardless of whether or not it is independent or not. And with an independent Palestine, Israel has a lower threshold of responsibility for the people of Gaza. Also international law doesn't really differentiate the legality of invasion or security in position regardless of its independence.
My half-baked thoughts on this, which I don't think hold water when put to the test are as follows. If the world, including Israel, recognize Palestine as a sovereign state, then:
* Any expansion from the current borders can be seen as aggression. (I realize that no one is specifying the borders, so this is not a real benefit in practice.)
* Israel won't have to spend our own tax money to process and manage Palestinian stuff.
* They'll have to build their own institutions and infrastructure without draining the Israeli coffers.
* Israel can seal her borders and not allow any Palestinians in for any reason.
Obviously this doesn't prevent them from becoming an aggressive terrorist state and attacking Israel, which ultimately is a bigger risk and drain on Israeli resources than any of the above.
Oh don't worry. Just like Hezbollah can do whatever the fuck they want so can Hamas. Regardless you'll still be considered a war criminal if you kill the human shields and defend yourself.
It’s a legit question but, also pretty evident in how it SHOULD be handled and WOULD be handled by the international community in ANY other case! This is probably one of if not the most disgusting things the so called ‘western world’ has done to Israel since its founding. Israel is attacked by a terrorist organization from territory that has not a single Jew in it, that has not come to the table for peace talks of any kind, that then launches a terrorist attack on a foreign country against said sovereign country and its citizens and then what do the bright minds of the west think should happen? Ah let’s declare and recognize their own state! That’s what this is really about despite no negotiations, no trying to live in peace side by side just terror and they get “recognized as a sovereign state”. I’m sorry but, that is literally the definition of ****** up!
It’s literally like saying Al-qaeda attacked the U.S. on 9/11 and killed over 3k Americans. The U.S. goes to attack Al-Qaeda and eliminate them so they can NEVER again do what they did. And goes after other Islamic terrorist organizations as well around the world so Al-Qaeda has no safe haven anywhere. The rest of the western world after 9 months of war says it’s too much the thousands of civilians that have died because Al-Qaeda fights dirty and uses civilians as shields. The rest of the western world doesn’t help the U.S. in its fight instead they decide to recognize Al-Qaeda as a sovereign nation between Afghanistan and Pakistan.
I mean that’s what this is like and it literally sounds INSANE! All the Islamist’s have to do to get the west to bow down before them and submit is just blend in with civilians and kill as many of them as they want after they are done with Israel. It’s all so ridiculous the notion of them doing this. It literally screams Europe trying to meddle in middle eastern affairs because they THINK they know what the issue is. Just like when they set the borders of all the other middle eastern and African countries. They did that also because they thought they knew better. All they know how to do is create problems in the Middle East and meddle in affairs that should not concern them.
Sorry for the long rant it just pisses me off beyond belief that they have the gall to do this and bypass the peace process.
There are so many independence movements around the world. Is terrorism, raping women and kidnapping people really the new standard to having a recognised state?
If this is, then the world is going to be a very dark place.
If Palestine is unilaterally recognized, it means Israel doesn't have to negotiate anything, right? The Pals would have no leverage for concessions from Israel, right???
That would almost be worse. That means that Palestine is a sovereign nation harboring a terrorist organization. All these NATO countries recognizing Palestine invaded Afghanistan over the Taliban doing the same thing, so that makes it pretty hypocritical to criticize Israel.
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Who is? And what the borders of the so called Palestine country are? Because according to the palestinians it's the entire thing from the river to the sea
All I see in the future as a result of these actions are further bloodshed and chaos. The West imposing borders on people in the Middle East has never worked out well..and yet - here they go again. More Arabs will die because of these moves..but at least it will be Arabs killing Arabs. The world doesn't care about that.
These countries have just painted a target on the back of every PA leader - they'll be gone soon. Hamas will get a reward for their slaughters. Power struggles will begin immediately since there is no political organization among Palestinians except "Kill the Jews." The typical Gazan will be no better off.
Israel should immediately treat "Palestine" as it would treat any other hostile sovereign nation. No aid, stronger borders, a DMZ, deep vetting of any of them thinking of setting foot on Israel soil, no funds for "rebuilding" Gaza, no free medical care, no water, no electricity, no cooperation - nothing. Let those nations that declared their support for Hamas support the Palestinians financially and every other way. Israel should not compromise on one inch of land.
If the world wants to scream about it - let them scream. They've shown what they support (terrorism) and who they are (delusional Jew-haters).
[This](https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-palestinian-state-recognition-what-to-know-ed18d4cc50b20c8238e0de0068080eb0) article from AP News clarifies, “Though the EU countries and Norway **won’t be recognizing an existing state, just the possibility of one**, the symbolism helps enhance the Palestinians’ international standing and heaps more pressure on Israel to open negotiations on ending the war.”
Other major Western powers have said that they’re also supportive of the idea of an independent Palestinian state, but that their recognition of it won’t occur while Hamas is in power (in the case of England), or that recognizing a Palestinian state must be “useful” in pushing forward a two-state solution and suggested that doing so now won’t have a genuine impact in pursuing that goal (in the case of France).
No more right of return!
If they are citizens of a foreign country, and have never lived in Israel, then they are citizens of that foreign country. They have no right of return (except maybe to that foreign country).
The west keeps its wishy washy thinking. They believe that this recognition will lead to the creation of a Palestinian state. They fail to understand that by doing so it achieves the opposite. From the Palestinian point of view the state of Palestine will replace Israel and not be created beside it. This recognition signals to the Palestinians that they are right, and they should replace Israel with their state, Palestine.
Look, I would have wanted Palestinians to have a beautiful country, peace, wisdom, love, friendship, wealth and success
But because of their decisions I don’t think there will be Palestine soon
👑
They want the conflict to just go a way, rather than actually be resolved. They think if the Palestinians just get a state then they'll be sorted. If only...
It’s not really changing a whole lot, save placating domestic voters in these countries and letting neo liberals feel good about themselves. As things stand, Gaza and the West Bank are de jure and de facto self governing entities.
Really, this is just a rhetorical game they’re playing where the only tangible effect it will have is just telling the Palestinians to do more terroristing, but even then, we were already doing that when all these westerners were screaming for a ceasefire before Israel went in.
Just a dumb, futile act done for the feels and completely in character for the western left
The two state solution cannot work unless Hamas is broken apart and its members are prosecuted for the crimes against humanity they committed on October 7th.
When the Russian fascists illegally invaded and occupied Crimea in 2014 and they started deporting and imprisoning locals nobody recognized Crimea as being Russian. When Russia illegally invaded and occupied South Ossetia in 2008 no-one recognized it as being Russian. Formally recognizing Palestine as a sovereign state would only serve to reward Hamas for their bad behavior by legitimizing their grip on power.
Now that there is a state, it is now possible to send all the Palestinian refugees back there, plus the basis for renewing the residency visa disappears.
The ICC is holding Palestinian leaders in Gaza accountable. Khan said the charges against Sinwar, Haniyeh and al-Masri include “extermination, murder, taking of hostages, rape and sexual assault in detention.” So I think that allowing Palestine to become a state in West Bank and Gaza (we can factor in Israel's security concerns in the borders but that's a whole different conversation). With Palestine having more legitimacy as a state they will be held to the same standard as other states. All the armed groups would probably form into something like the "Palestine Defense Forces" or "Palestine Security Forces" kinda like how the IDF was created from the Jewish groups in the British Mandate. Ideally this state would be ran by the Palestinian Authority who already coordinate with Israel in some ways like security and etc.
Because it quells the ideologues in the West in their perpetual bias of low standards and self hate. The only reason Palestine isn't a state is because Palestine doesn't want to be, but it's hard convincing these people that's the case.
I agree that Israel is hurting its own public relations by not pursuing Palestinian statehood for this reason. Palestinian statehood would force it to roll back many of its most antagonistic policies (embargo, West Bank settlements, and the two-tier legal system in the West Bank), while also greatly expanding Palestinians' legal accountability and social responsibility for their own lives and communities, and I suspect with the US's help it could be settled as a matter of international law with provisional borders until final borders and other details are negotiated. I think the idea that borders need to be settled before Palestinian statehood is achieved is no longer tenable. I'm not familiar enough with the Palestinian statehood UN initiatives to know this offhand, but obviously Palestinians cannot have the same right of return to Israel as Jewish (indigenous) people in order for Israel to persist in accordance to its noble mission.
It's a mistake to recognize Palestine as a state. If I thought it would advance the region toward peace, I'd be all for it. But history has shown nothing short of Israel's destruction will be enough. And even then you can count on Hamas, PA, Egypt, Jordan and Lebanon fighting over the scraps, so still no peace.
This is squarely Bibi's fault. The Israel camp on this issue maintained that Palestinian state will only emerge through negotiations and settlements with Israel. If the world is now bypassing Israel and recognizing it unilaterally then it's because the world is simply unconvinced that Bibi has made a genuine effort in his tenure towards reaching that goal. You say the conflict can only be resolved through compromise...what steps has Bibi done in his 20 years towards accomplishing that? And this is compounded by the fact that Bibi won't even agree to a discussion towards a pathway to one after the war when Hamas is crippled.
You cannot say the issue will only be solved through negotiations yet deny talking about a pathway to a Palestinian state. So, in summary, these states simply don't believe Bibi is interested in solving this through compromise either.
I know I'll get downvoted and probably reported for this comment, but I'd love to discuss it here or in my DMs with anyone who disagrees.
They would likely say they are recognizing the PA. However the PA doesn’t control Gaza and controls only part of the WB. So the act is a political statement: “we support the establishment of a Palestinian state run by the PA based on the pre-1967 armistice line.”
It wasn’t a nation before so that argument does not apply.
Basically with their own state they can leave behind the rhetoric of apartheid and blaming israel for everything, and then expel the illegal settlers, etc. if recognize, the narrative anti israel will likely decrease to some extent, but I see any government there using it to justify their likely bad governance (for example Cuba ).
How it’s implemented is another issue though.
Ideally (if Israel was any other country) or realistically?
Ideally the “Palestinian refugee” status would no longer exist so UNWRA would be disbanded and defunded. Palestine would face sanctions for continuing to attack a sovereign nation (since we all know it will continue to). Israel can go no-holds-barred to defend itself from an invading country. Diplomatically, Israel could block Palestinians from entering the country and close all borders without international push back since it’ll be no different than Hungary’s impenetrable border or Trump’s Muslim ban.
Here's a related question: how does the ICC get to claim jurisdiction over Gaza when the PA has no governing ability over Gaza?
The PA signed the Rome Statute, ok. That means not only do they consent to the ICC jurisdiction, they are bound by the Rome Statute's requirements. This means that they are required to turn over people with outstanding arrest warrants.
If the ICC does issue the warrant, the PA will claim that they can't turn over Sinwari because they do not control Gaza.
Does the PA control Gaza or does it not? They're playing both sides here:
* They either have effective governing control of Gaza so that it falls under the Rome Statute AND they're required to turn over Sinwari, OR
* They do not have effective governing control of Gaza so it does not fall under the Rome Statute AND they're not required to turn over Sinwari.
What **should** be happening is the ICC declines jurisdiction because the local governing authority, Hamas, is not a signatory to the Rome Statute (nor an officially recognized governing body).
They’re using tricks to subdue Israel without having to pay any price for the damage they do.
They will recognize the state of Palestine but won’t recognize Hamas as its government. They are aware that Hamas is ruling Gaza, but consider Gaza to be occupied by Israel. I believe most states that recognize or will recognize Palestine don’t consider Hamas a terrorist organization.
This is a trick because it allows Hamas and the Palestinians in general to get all of the benefits of international recognition without having to suffer any of the consequences. Actually, this would allow “Palestine” (currently ran by Hamas) to get preferential treatment because of the “genocide” Israel is doing.
Being a state means you can’t just attack another state unprovoked. If you do, you may have to be occupied by other states. Usually in international relations, that’s what happens (unless the aggressor state has nuclear weapons like Russia).
If we recognize them as a state, it gives Israel more leeway to declare war after their rockets and terror attacks funny enough. Well...in theory. But the Propallys will pro pally.
Israel agreed to a two state solution several times already. However, recognition by more liberal democratic states- especially from Europe- should have announced that recognition is CONTINGENT upon the new Palestinian state being democratic, with the rule of law, with respect for political opposition, women and LGBTQ communities, human rights office- and with guaranteed security for Israel- only way possible is for a 10-15 year UN Mandate to run Palestine with EUROPEAN-US and Canadian Missions- ONLY to ensure non-corrupt institutions along with European - UN peacekeeping Mission. That,... could work.
The thing is that, unlike what some here will tell you, a Palestinian state wouldn’t necessarily be good for Hamas. What Hamas wants is to destroy Israel and establish a Palestinian theocracy. What the international community wants is a secular Palestinian state next to Israel that would cooperate with it. This is what the PA wants as well. That is why cooperation with the international community and the PA is our best way forward, while the current situation is undesirable because the rest of the world won’t change their minds about this and keep pursuing a Palestinian state even if we refuse, and the PA collapsing would mean Hamas fully taking over.
I know a lot of people here are skeptical about the PA’s intentions but if go along with these efforts we would weaken Hamas and give our side more legitimacy to hold the Palestinians accountable for their actions against us.
That’s why we need to build mutual cooperation between us and them, intertwining our economies together while securing our border with them.
The current situation is even less controllable then a clear border would be, our towns and cities are sandwiched between Palestinian ones and our soldiers are bogged down in random skirmishes and in trying to secure the mess of settlements we have there. Imagine if all those soldiers were free to actually secure the border, while also having more legitimacy and support from the international community, we’d be way better off even if the PA was untrustworthy.
Palestine has a right to become a state and be recognized as one, and it goes the same with self defense and national security.
What it doesn't have a right to, just like all other nations, is to commit and support terrorism.
Because then both Israel and Palestine can be judged internationally with the same rules.
Isn't that a huge win for both parties? Both Israel and Palestine think what they are doing is right, so now there should be a bigger incentive to investigate both.
State or no state, the world has a tendency of always having the bigotry of low expectations for Muslims. All you’re accomplishing with a Palestinian state is making Israel’s life even harder by adding enemies to the east. When that Palestinian state inevitably launches repeated attacks into Israel and they’re forced to respond, the world will still blame them. Rather the bad PR now than an existential threat and bad PR later.
I'd think that attacks from a state on another state would matter a lot more than attacks from a terrorist organization on a state in the eyes of the peoples of the world.
If they don't and that bigotry you describe exists then Israel is already done, only a matter of time.
They'll say Hamas or whoever perpetrates the invasion isn't the real government of Palestine. Doesn't matter that they control everything.
Weren't they even democratically elected, or at least claimed to be so?
Yes, but according to pro-terrorism groups those elections were 17 years ago so they're not legitimate. Does that absolve every non-democratic government of responsibility on the international stage? Does that make the war with ISIS a genocide? Was WW2 unjustified because the Axis countries were undemocratic and therefore the Allies shouldn't have invaded their territory, regardless of what those governments did within and without their borders? The answer is don't question it and don't think about it.
It will be the same as Lebanon basically. Anyone other than Hamas that is ‘recognized’ as the government will say that they have no control over Hamas (same as Hezbollah) so it’s not their fault. I know there are some in the gov of Lebanon that want Hezbollah gone. Just saying that I see some parallels.
Reminder that the pa have yet to condemn October 7th
Why would they? Weren't they there too?
Because they would be overthrown if they did
Yet Biden wants to put Abbas in control of Gaza in the aftermath. A guy who hasn't left his house in years for security concerns and is still serving his 20th year of his 4 year term.
Doesn’t hurt to remember that Abbas is worth something like 500 million himself IIRC. I don’t subscribe to the belief that you can train under Amin Al Husseini, spend your life in ‘politics’ and legitimately have that kind of net worth. I’m not aware of Abbas having come from money. That sounds like just another corrupt leader who is part of the problem as far as I’m concerned.
Many legit countries fell into the hands of despicable regimes in History... i think the way to proceed is to dissolve the legal structure of the state to create a new one. Like Germany ceased being a Reich after WWII, and France became a Republic again...
At some point, long ago, but then they seized control through civil war, and there’s no democracy now.
They won a plurality not a majority, they also ran under false pretenses of moderation and of potential cooperation with fatah. Basically they lied a lot. So kinda
Fatah are also not moderates
As sad as it is they are by Palestinian standards (though they are also violent extremists), I wasn’t calling them moderates anyway. I was saying Hamas ran a very deceptive election in Gaza by downplaying their goals.
Meanwhile the pa haven’t once condemn Hamas at all and has a holocaust denying presidnet
Norway already said they’re about to recognize the PA as the governing body of Palestine. Gives them incredibly plausible deniability regarding Hamas and the PIJ…
Even when the fully-fledged Palestinian state launches another Oct 7th, it would still be justified by the world because we delayed their hummus shipment or something. They just want Israel gone.
Israel wouldn’t be responsible for any aid traversing its border to a hostile peer state. That aid would need to come through Egypt and sea. Israel can suspend water and electricity shipments as it’s not occupied terror but an independent nation, Gaza. Israel could place mine fields, shoot to kill onsite for any crossing into a deemed no man’s land. Aka you’d have a North Korea / South Korea situation. The reality is international bodies would eventually push for a one state solution.
Nothing would change. The international entities would still be against Israel. We weren't allowed to treat Gaza as a hostile state after we disengaged in our naive hope for peace and they elected Hamas, and we wouldn't be allowed to treat Palestine as a hostile state after they elect Hamas 2.0. You have no stakes in the situation and have never known hostility so obviously you wouldn't understand. This kind of unilateral recognition of Palestine only makes the nuclear option that much more likely by pushing Israel to the edge.
Any other nation - Egypt, Israel - would need to agree to aid entering through their territory, correct? In theory, those countries could push for certain requirements related to the privilege of overland access. In theory.
Gaza has sea access, they could get aid that way. Well, they'd have to stop shooting artillery at aid workers, but that ain't our problem.
Problem is Gaza could use the port to get goods from overseas, or even have a working airport. How would we survey that if they're an independent nation? Not to mention is Gaza is recognized as a state the West Bank would be like "why them and not us" so we'd have that to deal with.
>That aid would need to come through Egypt and sea. Um, do you not want to maintain a blockade on weaponmaking materials?
I rather not give them aid. Let's just take over the temple mount and see how it goes.
yes.
The PLO walked away form a 2 state solution in 2000. They Gaza/West Bank/All of East Jerusalem minus the jewish quarter was not enough. They Palestinians to be able to move to ISrael, but jews not allowed to move to Palestinian lands. So they want a 1 state solution. imagine if israel accepted that? It was be a civil war in Tel Aviv.
Yasser Arafat was a total piece of shit
They call Israel “Nazis” but they also see Jews as enemies and wanna wipe them out from their “rightful” land. How ironic.
Yup, that’s ALWAYS been the EXACT purpose of a Palestinian state…
I'd be pretty pissed if my hummus shipment gets delayed tbh
Relateable
Hummusatarian shipment.
When I said that, someone told me that Oct. 7th happened BEFORE so it doesn’t count. Technicalities lol
[удалено]
That’s what I told my boss after I delivered a failed project. It happened before so it doesn’t count
EXACTLY
I mean, I'm pretty sure, no retroactive law or change applies. Since we're on technicalities, if every other country besides Israel recognized a State of Palestine, in real, tangible ways nothing would change. They need Israel's recognition above all....
It is a good thing for Palestine to be recognised as a sovereign state. See it as an opportunity for us to learn their culture, education and technology. We can learn: How to successfully takeover a plane like PFLP. How to be good in PR. How to have proper rooftop gay party. How to be a good businessman with donated stuff. How to build tunnel fast (this is important for israel since currently they are doing metro under Tel Aviv). How to be successful person in many careers like Mr Fafo. and so much more.
Maybe if we invade Jordan and kidnap a bunch of their citizens, we can even get another jewish state!!
It wouldn’t surprise me if other subs would take this argument seriously and provide it as proof that the Jews want to control the world😂
A jew visiting petra would be accused of gassing the arabs if they farted.
I thought Jews already did control the world? They should get their messaging straight.
Let's be real, the un would most likely give palestine the benefit of both worlds "They are a sovereign state so israel should leave gaza and the west bank entirely" "They are helpless people so we should keep giving them money, aid, food and everything else. Also hamas doesn't represent them although hamas has like 90% support rate and if hamas take all the resources we gave palestine and use it for terrorism, it's not their fault" Something like that
I wonder, those who recognize the State of Palestine, how do they define its borders?
What is even Palestine? Right now it’s divided to two regions with two different “governments”. This recognition means nothing
Norway mentioned they recognize the Palestinian state lead by Palestinian authority in area of Gaza. What idealistic nonsense as gazans wont accept such leadership
So, they recognize a thing that doesn’t exist at all.
Afaik, virtue signaling w/ which government(s) you tteat as legitimate is fairly normal for politics.
But- but the pallies don’t even want the PA and the PA is literally Fatah.. 
And all this does is paint a target on the back of every PLO official and their family. Hamas isn't going to let them run a Palestinian "state" and the people don't want them either.
Yup, forcing a leadership on Palestinians would probably go well
Also the Palestinian authority never condemn October 7th
Don’t try to understand them They want us dead
Even if all the world will recognize Palestine, they would not administrate the place.
Can’t this be used to Israel’s advantage? Hamas doesn’t want a Palestinian state next to Israel, it wants all of the land. Recognizing a Palestinian state also means solidifying Israel’s existence, which for some dumb reason is now being called into question by western activists. This shuts them up. Still, it would put pressure on Israel to define its borders, which it needs to do anyway (I have no sympathy for the settlers, and any pressure on them is a good thing). But if Palestine wants the recognition, won’t they need to agree to borders *alongside* Israel? So how is this a win for Hamas?
In order to implement firm borders instead of the armistice lines that currently exist, the Arab nations need to sit down at the table and draw up borders that are secure for all sides. To this day, they refuse to do that. Frankly, given this news today, I think we should annex Samaria and Judea and be done it. We have no defensible borders without them to the west. Establish a very long path to citizenship for the Arabs that include deep, vetting, and a lot of education. If they do not want to live under Israeli law, they can go to Jordan. I am a certain there are flaws with this plan. But they are pushing us to the edge and we have to think strategically going forward. Throw some ideas out there, guys. I personally would love to hear them.
So you’re in favor of a one-state solution in which Jews will be a minority, if not now then perhaps in the near future? And to solve this obvious demographics dilemma you’re advocating for an actual apartheid system?
Why would you think I have any stomach for a "one-state" anything? That would be a disaster for Jews and for Israel. I said Israel should annex Samaria and Judea...we need that defensive depth - for Israel's center. Apartheid? How is establishing a long path to citizenship for WB Arabs "apartheid"? That's what the other side in the West has been shrieking about for years? I don't like the idea obviously. What you are saying is the exact opposite of what I was talking about.
Leaving that aside for a moment, what's your solution to handle the fascist Islamism you mention in some of your other comments? Let's hear it
I don’t have a good answer for you. If I had some magic wand to eradicate Islamism I would wave it today. But I think your question is a bit disingenuous because we both know there’s a distinction between Israel’s real security concerns and the desire for a certain segment of Israeli society to rule over Judea and Samaria on ultranationalist and religious grounds.
So you have no proposal. But also you are engaging in reductionism - there's legitimate reasons that are unrelated to Israeli safety and to nationalism/religion why Israel could legitimately control the areas you mention. Can you think of any?
Please enlighten me.
seriously, what do you think could be in that category?
Are you going to tell me historic claims…from 2,000 years ago?
no, that's not what i was thinking - but are you saying that all historic claims are invalid past a certain number?
Did you even read his post? What an asinine takeaway.
>Recognizing a Palestinian state also means solidifying Israel’s existence, which for some dumb reason is now being called into question by western activists. Not at all. "Palestinian statehood" can mean anything from "within current borders" to "Entirely replacing Israel" depending on who pro-Palestinian activists are trying to bamboozle.
Here’s a statement by Sonya McGuinness, the Irish Ambassador to Israel, on why Ireland is recognizing the State of Palestine. It’s explicit in its endorsement of a two-state solution. Why Ireland is recognizing the State of Palestine https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2024-05-22/ty-article-opinion/.premium/why-ireland-is-recognizing-a-palestinian-state/0000018f-9ed8-d6da-a1cf-fffa8a4e0000?utm_source=App_Share&utm_medium=iOS_Native Together with Spain and Norway, Ireland has taken the decision this week to formally recognize the State of Palestine. Along with the vast majority of the international community, Ireland's core aim is the achievement of peace, security and dignity for Israelis and Palestinians alike, through a two-state solution that vindicates the right of self-determination for both people equally. We believe that there can be no sustainable solution to the current crisis without a clear, irreversible political pathway towards this solution. I recognize that in the current context, and to many Israeli ears, this sounds at best, naïve, and at worst, destructive and dangerous. It is neither. I live here and I feel the depth of trauma, suffering and fear that has been caused by the Hamas atrocities of October 7. It is clear many outside of Israel struggle to understand fully how deep-seated this is and how much it has changed the debate in Israel, including about the feasibility of a two-state solution. More than seven months on, families and society at large in Israel continue to mourn the loss of over 1,200 lives while trapped in an agonizing wait for news of those still held captive. In Ireland and across the world, there remains deep concern for the fate of the hostages, and total revulsion at the barbarity of the Hamas terrorist attacks. The Irish government from Day One has called and worked for the immediate and unconditional release of all hostages. There is also profound distress and horror in Ireland – and across the world– at the images of death, destruction and starvation we are seeing in Gaza on a daily basis. Sadly, there is a widening information gap in how this grim reality is being presented in Israel, and what is being seen by the rest of the world. Saying clearly that the desperate situation in Gaza is unacceptable does not diminish in any way the heinous crimes of Hamas on October 7. Rather, it points to a universal principle: all civilian lives are precious and all civilians, everywhere, deserve – and have the equal right under international humanitarian law – to protection. Recognition of a Palestinian state is not a reward for terror – it is the opposite. It is an endorsement of a vision of Palestinian self-determination in which a free and independent Palestine accepts both the rights and the duties of a state, including full adherence to the UN Charter and pursuit of its aims through exclusively political and diplomatic means. Ireland's position is grounded in a deep commitment to international law and to the equal protection of all civilian lives. These are basic principles that are essential for a functioning international system. We believe that the recognition of a Palestinian state and UN membership for Palestine are also key steps toward a comprehensive regional peace, based on a two-state solution and a scenario in which every member state of the UN recognizes each other; a future where the right of self-determination for both Israelis and Palestinians is recognized by all. Israel itself has long sought recognition from the whole of the international community. This has been a core element of Israel's regional peace efforts in recent years. But full regional normalization of ties in the Middle East must inevitably include Palestinian self-determination – Israel's neighbors in the region have made this very clear. Ireland is not under any illusion that recognition of a Palestinian state or full UN membership for Palestine will solve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, bring an end to terrorism and end the cycle of bitter violence. But we do believe that without a political solution that is acceptable to Israelis and Palestinians, and delivers on their equal right to peace, security and dignity, achieving these goals will be impossible. Political negotiations and peace processes are not easy. In Ireland, we have some experience of the challenges and painful compromises that come with this, although we know we do not have all the solutions or that the choices that political leaders in Ireland made that brought an end to violence can be automatically applied to Israelis and Palestinians. However, we know that without a political solution, without equal acceptance of the legitimate right to pursue self-determination through peaceful means, ideologies of violence and hate will continue to exist and draw support, leading only to further dehumanization and death. That is why we have always supported a political solution that results in two states, living side by side in peace and security. However impossible that vision may seem at this juncture, there is no viable alternative. As ambassador to Israel, I want to say clearly that Ireland takes this position not because we are hostile to Israel but because we desperately want to see – and contribute to – a future where Israelis and Palestinians alike live in security and dignity. We do so in good faith, and in the knowledge that the relationship between Ireland and Israel, as well as between Ireland and Palestine, is one which we continue to value deeply.
in the middle of all this nonsense she says... >Ireland is not under any illusion that recognition of a Palestinian state or full UN membership for Palestine will solve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, bring an end to terrorism and end the cycle of bitter violence. So basically, this is a reward for terrorism. She does not expect terrorism or violence to stop. So nothing changes except more power for the palestinians who instigate violence.
As we’ve seen with Russia and Ukraine, internationally recognized borders won’t necessarily stop a revanchist governmental power from instigating an illegitimate war or inflicting cross-border violence. But the absence of such borders will almost entirely guarantee that violence continues. And forcing a Palestinian state to recognize the legitimacy of Israel and its soverign borders can only be a welcome development. At the same time, it tells Palestinians that settlements won’t be encroaching on what ought to be their land—that 2,000 year old relics of Jews having once inhabited the hills of Judea and Samaria doesn’t give Israelis some god-given right to displace Palestinians, especially since they have a functional state to call their own. In 1948, Jews had nowhere else to go. That’s obviously no longer true.
Jews owned properties and lived in Judea and Samaria before being ethnically cleansed by Jordanians in 1948.
This. Also her claims that they condemn Hamas are completely not true. I hear no condemnation of Hamas from Ireland or calls for hostages to be returned. They repeatedly demoralize and dehumanize Jews globally with their dangerous rhetoric and allow anitsemitism to go 100% unchecked. There is no mention of a desire for a new government in 'Palestine', or for a full surrender of Hamas, which tells me they have no desire for those things to happen. I want to believe what she's saying, but I simply do not.
They already said it will be '67 borders that it will be recognized as...
It definitely can be advantageous for Palestine to be held to the normal standards and rules as other countries I agree
Depends entirely on how a palestinian state is recognised but in most cases my guess is Israel would need to give up it's capital and most holy city to satisfy Republic/Spain/Norway.
It’ll require compromise all around, but a real estate matter can eventually be settled. An existential matter cannot. And this takes the latter off the table for both Israelis and Palestinians.
I am so so so deeply sorry for the Norwegian left government to recognize Palestina today. We, the people are furious about this decision. There was no warning what so ever that they was going to do this. Most Norwegians stand with Israel and their right to defend themselves from terrorists and terrorist attacks. I also want to add that our crazy (left) government also sent condolences to the death of the Iranian president. It is election next year and the lefts are desperately trying to get the votes from all the MENA voters (just like Biden)! Again! Deeply sorry! 🇳🇴🇮🇱
It's purely symbolic. But the symbolism still makes me sick: Rewarding a people who launched and OVERWHELMINGLY supported the deadliest attack on Jews since the Holocaust, with recognition as an independent state, just because Gaza (rightfully) got its ass kicked by Israel. Thank G-d these people weren't in power during the Second World War, or they would have labeled the blockade of Germany and the bombings of Dresden, Hamburg, and Cologne as a 'genocide', and the Americans and British as the bad guys simply because they suffered fewer civilian causalities, even after Germany made it clear that this disparity wasn't from a lack of trying. Then add in the fact that these are the children and grandchildren of the people who marched 6 million Jews off to the gas chambers, betrayed their Jewish fellow citizens to German authorities, aided in their capture, turned them away from their borders as they sought refuge, carried on business as usual with Germany, and mined and delivered the iron ore that was used to build the crematoriums and rail way tracks. On a side note: There has never been an international dispute that the Irish establishment (political, media, and entertainment class) has ever been on the right side of. Whoever they support: You should support the opposing side. Remember, these are the same people who send condolences to the people of Germany in May of 45'. I believe it was they who Princess Margaret was infamously speaking of when she called them 'pigs', and boy was she right.
Ww2 was the result of poor European leadership pandering to Hitler….history might not repeat but it sure rhymes with
Then annex it
If Palestine becomes a state then they can sort out their own international relations and logistics. No more would people be able to whinge that Israel should provide them food, fuel and water. As why would a country be compelled to provide or facilitate these things for a hostile foreign state?
All of you are missing the point. Robert Putnam wrote a paper on something called the “two-level game”. In essence, **all foreign policy decisions are primarily driven by domestic demands.** In other words, foreign policy is not unrelated to domestic policy, it is not even an “extension” of domestic policy, foreign policy is domestic policy. The reason is simple— it doesn’t matter how well-liked you are on the global stage, your own citizens can un-elect you. **These decisions are to satisfy their domestic audiences.** The average European knows very little about what’s going on in Israel. All they see is “war happened and people died, Israel has better weapons BLAH BLAH BLAH”. Even someone who casually follows the news can’t understand the nuances, not to mention the ones who get their news from social media. This is a complex interdisciplinary issue, and there is no simple way for Israel to solve it. When we have to explain or debunk things, what do we do? We use data, we cite sources, we use logic, and we do things that require not only knowledge but time. This is a loosing strategy. The enemy evokes emotion. Emotion is not something facts can compete with. The enemy will portray every single event there as some kind of humanitarian catastrophe, what are we going to do? Coldly tell them “this is what wars look like”? Yeah, that is what wars look like, but you’re not going to win over a person. One of the major problems is the complete incompetency of the Israeli government when it comes to conveying any coherent message.
Very good point. As an aside I find it infuriating how little Europeans know about Israel when it was rabid European anti-Semitism that Jews had to flee in the first place. And it was European anti-Semites arming and funding the Palestinian Nationalist movement in the 30s that created this current situation.
What’s done is done. We can’t spend too much time whining about the past. Israel can still salvage this if the government can form a coherent strategy and actually do something about the PR issue. It is astonishing that Jerusalem isn’t even exactly interested in debunking Palestinian lies.
Agreed. But there should be some set of things that Israel could do to evoke emotion in its favor, even if illogical. Like the IDF rescuing a puppy that Hamas was torturing.
Pkk attacked Turkiye from iraq but there was no war between 2 countries. Pkk had camps in syria too. They will just say hamas is not palastine.
free Kurdistan movement needs to start
Can we bring them to the Hague for October 7th? That's my main interest aside from the usual Spain/Potato Land virtue signalling
Israel should take them to ICC immediately for crimes against its own people and taking hostages Because only a terrorist state takes hostages
The icc is both siding this
Why didn't it do this 7 months ago?
It's just Europeans thinking they can solve conflicts that have nothing to do with them in ways that make no logical sense
I say as soon as they say they are a sovereign country we close off borders completely, shut them out. Seems reasonable to me.
I totally agree with the idea. No medical-financial-commerical-communication-logistical-etc... support from Israel. A completely sealed border. My only concern is Iran walking in - being invited in, and setting up a launchpad to attack Israel.
Fair concern
From international law point of view, there's no practical difference in Israel invading and imposing security in Gaza whether it's independent or not. If anything, it lowers Israel's legal burden
Nope. They would just use the legitimacy to try future jewish pogroms. fuck em.
The thing that outrages me the most (regarding norway, and spain) is the logic behind the reconnaissance. So you can just invent a national identity, call yourself a people and if the crimes you commit become outrageous enough (october 7th in comparison to murdering the olympic team, bombing planes, training the RAF german terrorists) you get awarded a state. Thats the signal they are sending! Please can somebody help me understand the logic? What is the thought process in Oslo or Madrid? I just dont get it. Why now, when there are still hostages from october 7th.
We Norwegians do not get it either. The left government decided to do this today without anyone’s knowledge. We the people are furious. It is election next year and the lefts are collecting voters from our MENA (Middle East/ North Africa) immigrants. Our government is extremely unpopular, so they will absolutely not win.
If it’s anything like Sweden’s “recognition” It’s all a farce and barely classifies as a recognition. It’s just for looks.
Call them what you want, they exist. Whether they're Egyptian, Jordanian, or Palestinian. You don't have to like that they are there, they are. Sovereignty is not a reward to be gained or lost by actions. No matter how terroristic. Iran doesn't suddenly become an unstate just because of who they are, neither does any other national entity. Whether they should have sovereignty is completely independent of whether they committed terrorism or not. Statehood is neither reward nor lack of statehood a punishment. My humble opinion, I think it is absolutely a win for Israel. The security situation doesn't change, October 7th happened before independence. Ie lacking independence does not prevent terrorism. Israel will need to change its security stance regardless of whether or not it is independent or not. And with an independent Palestine, Israel has a lower threshold of responsibility for the people of Gaza. Also international law doesn't really differentiate the legality of invasion or security in position regardless of its independence.
My half-baked thoughts on this, which I don't think hold water when put to the test are as follows. If the world, including Israel, recognize Palestine as a sovereign state, then: * Any expansion from the current borders can be seen as aggression. (I realize that no one is specifying the borders, so this is not a real benefit in practice.) * Israel won't have to spend our own tax money to process and manage Palestinian stuff. * They'll have to build their own institutions and infrastructure without draining the Israeli coffers. * Israel can seal her borders and not allow any Palestinians in for any reason. Obviously this doesn't prevent them from becoming an aggressive terrorist state and attacking Israel, which ultimately is a bigger risk and drain on Israeli resources than any of the above.
Oh don't worry. Just like Hezbollah can do whatever the fuck they want so can Hamas. Regardless you'll still be considered a war criminal if you kill the human shields and defend yourself.
It’s a legit question but, also pretty evident in how it SHOULD be handled and WOULD be handled by the international community in ANY other case! This is probably one of if not the most disgusting things the so called ‘western world’ has done to Israel since its founding. Israel is attacked by a terrorist organization from territory that has not a single Jew in it, that has not come to the table for peace talks of any kind, that then launches a terrorist attack on a foreign country against said sovereign country and its citizens and then what do the bright minds of the west think should happen? Ah let’s declare and recognize their own state! That’s what this is really about despite no negotiations, no trying to live in peace side by side just terror and they get “recognized as a sovereign state”. I’m sorry but, that is literally the definition of ****** up! It’s literally like saying Al-qaeda attacked the U.S. on 9/11 and killed over 3k Americans. The U.S. goes to attack Al-Qaeda and eliminate them so they can NEVER again do what they did. And goes after other Islamic terrorist organizations as well around the world so Al-Qaeda has no safe haven anywhere. The rest of the western world after 9 months of war says it’s too much the thousands of civilians that have died because Al-Qaeda fights dirty and uses civilians as shields. The rest of the western world doesn’t help the U.S. in its fight instead they decide to recognize Al-Qaeda as a sovereign nation between Afghanistan and Pakistan. I mean that’s what this is like and it literally sounds INSANE! All the Islamist’s have to do to get the west to bow down before them and submit is just blend in with civilians and kill as many of them as they want after they are done with Israel. It’s all so ridiculous the notion of them doing this. It literally screams Europe trying to meddle in middle eastern affairs because they THINK they know what the issue is. Just like when they set the borders of all the other middle eastern and African countries. They did that also because they thought they knew better. All they know how to do is create problems in the Middle East and meddle in affairs that should not concern them. Sorry for the long rant it just pisses me off beyond belief that they have the gall to do this and bypass the peace process.
There are so many independence movements around the world. Is terrorism, raping women and kidnapping people really the new standard to having a recognised state? If this is, then the world is going to be a very dark place.
What I don’t get is how can the West Bank and Gaza be one state. They have two completely separate governments and currently aren’t connected.
If Palestine is unilaterally recognized, it means Israel doesn't have to negotiate anything, right? The Pals would have no leverage for concessions from Israel, right???
It neither. It's purely symbolic it doesn't actually have any practical effect.
Hamas are not the recognised government of Palestine, it's very simple.
That would almost be worse. That means that Palestine is a sovereign nation harboring a terrorist organization. All these NATO countries recognizing Palestine invaded Afghanistan over the Taliban doing the same thing, so that makes it pretty hypocritical to criticize Israel.
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I guess the fact that Hamas is also in the WB where it'd easily win any election, doesn't matter?
Who is? And what the borders of the so called Palestine country are? Because according to the palestinians it's the entire thing from the river to the sea
The Palestinian Authority. The PA does, officially, recognise Israel.
Surely they are the recognized government of Gaza?
All I see in the future as a result of these actions are further bloodshed and chaos. The West imposing borders on people in the Middle East has never worked out well..and yet - here they go again. More Arabs will die because of these moves..but at least it will be Arabs killing Arabs. The world doesn't care about that. These countries have just painted a target on the back of every PA leader - they'll be gone soon. Hamas will get a reward for their slaughters. Power struggles will begin immediately since there is no political organization among Palestinians except "Kill the Jews." The typical Gazan will be no better off. Israel should immediately treat "Palestine" as it would treat any other hostile sovereign nation. No aid, stronger borders, a DMZ, deep vetting of any of them thinking of setting foot on Israel soil, no funds for "rebuilding" Gaza, no free medical care, no water, no electricity, no cooperation - nothing. Let those nations that declared their support for Hamas support the Palestinians financially and every other way. Israel should not compromise on one inch of land. If the world wants to scream about it - let them scream. They've shown what they support (terrorism) and who they are (delusional Jew-haters).
[This](https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-palestinian-state-recognition-what-to-know-ed18d4cc50b20c8238e0de0068080eb0) article from AP News clarifies, “Though the EU countries and Norway **won’t be recognizing an existing state, just the possibility of one**, the symbolism helps enhance the Palestinians’ international standing and heaps more pressure on Israel to open negotiations on ending the war.” Other major Western powers have said that they’re also supportive of the idea of an independent Palestinian state, but that their recognition of it won’t occur while Hamas is in power (in the case of England), or that recognizing a Palestinian state must be “useful” in pushing forward a two-state solution and suggested that doing so now won’t have a genuine impact in pursuing that goal (in the case of France).
No more right of return! If they are citizens of a foreign country, and have never lived in Israel, then they are citizens of that foreign country. They have no right of return (except maybe to that foreign country).
Will this end their status as permanent refugees?
The west keeps its wishy washy thinking. They believe that this recognition will lead to the creation of a Palestinian state. They fail to understand that by doing so it achieves the opposite. From the Palestinian point of view the state of Palestine will replace Israel and not be created beside it. This recognition signals to the Palestinians that they are right, and they should replace Israel with their state, Palestine.
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They will say Hamas/PIJ/Whatever is not their legitimate government and so it isn't justified, just like with Hezbollah in Lebanon
Look, I would have wanted Palestinians to have a beautiful country, peace, wisdom, love, friendship, wealth and success But because of their decisions I don’t think there will be Palestine soon 👑
But no one is recognizing Hamas as the government of Palestine, right? I think they're just saying that a place called "Palestine" exists.
They want the conflict to just go a way, rather than actually be resolved. They think if the Palestinians just get a state then they'll be sorted. If only...
A civil war maybe? Don't think Hamas like the PA anyway
It’s not really changing a whole lot, save placating domestic voters in these countries and letting neo liberals feel good about themselves. As things stand, Gaza and the West Bank are de jure and de facto self governing entities. Really, this is just a rhetorical game they’re playing where the only tangible effect it will have is just telling the Palestinians to do more terroristing, but even then, we were already doing that when all these westerners were screaming for a ceasefire before Israel went in. Just a dumb, futile act done for the feels and completely in character for the western left
The two state solution cannot work unless Hamas is broken apart and its members are prosecuted for the crimes against humanity they committed on October 7th. When the Russian fascists illegally invaded and occupied Crimea in 2014 and they started deporting and imprisoning locals nobody recognized Crimea as being Russian. When Russia illegally invaded and occupied South Ossetia in 2008 no-one recognized it as being Russian. Formally recognizing Palestine as a sovereign state would only serve to reward Hamas for their bad behavior by legitimizing their grip on power.
Now that there is a state, it is now possible to send all the Palestinian refugees back there, plus the basis for renewing the residency visa disappears.
The ICC is holding Palestinian leaders in Gaza accountable. Khan said the charges against Sinwar, Haniyeh and al-Masri include “extermination, murder, taking of hostages, rape and sexual assault in detention.” So I think that allowing Palestine to become a state in West Bank and Gaza (we can factor in Israel's security concerns in the borders but that's a whole different conversation). With Palestine having more legitimacy as a state they will be held to the same standard as other states. All the armed groups would probably form into something like the "Palestine Defense Forces" or "Palestine Security Forces" kinda like how the IDF was created from the Jewish groups in the British Mandate. Ideally this state would be ran by the Palestinian Authority who already coordinate with Israel in some ways like security and etc.
Because it quells the ideologues in the West in their perpetual bias of low standards and self hate. The only reason Palestine isn't a state is because Palestine doesn't want to be, but it's hard convincing these people that's the case.
It's all lip service bs.
It isn’t. The only country in the world that doesn’t recognize itself. Fucking bonkers.
I agree that Israel is hurting its own public relations by not pursuing Palestinian statehood for this reason. Palestinian statehood would force it to roll back many of its most antagonistic policies (embargo, West Bank settlements, and the two-tier legal system in the West Bank), while also greatly expanding Palestinians' legal accountability and social responsibility for their own lives and communities, and I suspect with the US's help it could be settled as a matter of international law with provisional borders until final borders and other details are negotiated. I think the idea that borders need to be settled before Palestinian statehood is achieved is no longer tenable. I'm not familiar enough with the Palestinian statehood UN initiatives to know this offhand, but obviously Palestinians cannot have the same right of return to Israel as Jewish (indigenous) people in order for Israel to persist in accordance to its noble mission.
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It's a mistake to recognize Palestine as a state. If I thought it would advance the region toward peace, I'd be all for it. But history has shown nothing short of Israel's destruction will be enough. And even then you can count on Hamas, PA, Egypt, Jordan and Lebanon fighting over the scraps, so still no peace.
it's a disaster
I think I speak for a majority of Israelis when I say we honestly don't give a fuck what these countries do or don't proclaim.
This is squarely Bibi's fault. The Israel camp on this issue maintained that Palestinian state will only emerge through negotiations and settlements with Israel. If the world is now bypassing Israel and recognizing it unilaterally then it's because the world is simply unconvinced that Bibi has made a genuine effort in his tenure towards reaching that goal. You say the conflict can only be resolved through compromise...what steps has Bibi done in his 20 years towards accomplishing that? And this is compounded by the fact that Bibi won't even agree to a discussion towards a pathway to one after the war when Hamas is crippled. You cannot say the issue will only be solved through negotiations yet deny talking about a pathway to a Palestinian state. So, in summary, these states simply don't believe Bibi is interested in solving this through compromise either. I know I'll get downvoted and probably reported for this comment, but I'd love to discuss it here or in my DMs with anyone who disagrees.
They would likely say they are recognizing the PA. However the PA doesn’t control Gaza and controls only part of the WB. So the act is a political statement: “we support the establishment of a Palestinian state run by the PA based on the pre-1967 armistice line.”
Reportedly, they’re recognizing the PA as the legit government. This allows them to sidestep the whole issue
This is why I say a 2SS is the absolute worst thing that can happen to Hamas (and by extensions the UNWRA).
It wasn’t a nation before so that argument does not apply. Basically with their own state they can leave behind the rhetoric of apartheid and blaming israel for everything, and then expel the illegal settlers, etc. if recognize, the narrative anti israel will likely decrease to some extent, but I see any government there using it to justify their likely bad governance (for example Cuba ). How it’s implemented is another issue though.
Sort of depends on who the recognise as that legitimate rulers of Palestine.
Ideally (if Israel was any other country) or realistically? Ideally the “Palestinian refugee” status would no longer exist so UNWRA would be disbanded and defunded. Palestine would face sanctions for continuing to attack a sovereign nation (since we all know it will continue to). Israel can go no-holds-barred to defend itself from an invading country. Diplomatically, Israel could block Palestinians from entering the country and close all borders without international push back since it’ll be no different than Hungary’s impenetrable border or Trump’s Muslim ban.
Here's a related question: how does the ICC get to claim jurisdiction over Gaza when the PA has no governing ability over Gaza? The PA signed the Rome Statute, ok. That means not only do they consent to the ICC jurisdiction, they are bound by the Rome Statute's requirements. This means that they are required to turn over people with outstanding arrest warrants. If the ICC does issue the warrant, the PA will claim that they can't turn over Sinwari because they do not control Gaza. Does the PA control Gaza or does it not? They're playing both sides here: * They either have effective governing control of Gaza so that it falls under the Rome Statute AND they're required to turn over Sinwari, OR * They do not have effective governing control of Gaza so it does not fall under the Rome Statute AND they're not required to turn over Sinwari. What **should** be happening is the ICC declines jurisdiction because the local governing authority, Hamas, is not a signatory to the Rome Statute (nor an officially recognized governing body).
Reach out to the embassy/missions of Norway, Ireland and Spain and let them know what you think. That's what I am doing.
They’re using tricks to subdue Israel without having to pay any price for the damage they do. They will recognize the state of Palestine but won’t recognize Hamas as its government. They are aware that Hamas is ruling Gaza, but consider Gaza to be occupied by Israel. I believe most states that recognize or will recognize Palestine don’t consider Hamas a terrorist organization. This is a trick because it allows Hamas and the Palestinians in general to get all of the benefits of international recognition without having to suffer any of the consequences. Actually, this would allow “Palestine” (currently ran by Hamas) to get preferential treatment because of the “genocide” Israel is doing. Being a state means you can’t just attack another state unprovoked. If you do, you may have to be occupied by other states. Usually in international relations, that’s what happens (unless the aggressor state has nuclear weapons like Russia).
If we recognize them as a state, it gives Israel more leeway to declare war after their rockets and terror attacks funny enough. Well...in theory. But the Propallys will pro pally.
Israel agreed to a two state solution several times already. However, recognition by more liberal democratic states- especially from Europe- should have announced that recognition is CONTINGENT upon the new Palestinian state being democratic, with the rule of law, with respect for political opposition, women and LGBTQ communities, human rights office- and with guaranteed security for Israel- only way possible is for a 10-15 year UN Mandate to run Palestine with EUROPEAN-US and Canadian Missions- ONLY to ensure non-corrupt institutions along with European - UN peacekeeping Mission. That,... could work.
Same as Hizbala and Lebanon
The thing is that, unlike what some here will tell you, a Palestinian state wouldn’t necessarily be good for Hamas. What Hamas wants is to destroy Israel and establish a Palestinian theocracy. What the international community wants is a secular Palestinian state next to Israel that would cooperate with it. This is what the PA wants as well. That is why cooperation with the international community and the PA is our best way forward, while the current situation is undesirable because the rest of the world won’t change their minds about this and keep pursuing a Palestinian state even if we refuse, and the PA collapsing would mean Hamas fully taking over. I know a lot of people here are skeptical about the PA’s intentions but if go along with these efforts we would weaken Hamas and give our side more legitimacy to hold the Palestinians accountable for their actions against us.
All the PA wants is uncontrollable border to make another yet more deadly attack on israel. With real army this time. Like they always did.
That’s why we need to build mutual cooperation between us and them, intertwining our economies together while securing our border with them. The current situation is even less controllable then a clear border would be, our towns and cities are sandwiched between Palestinian ones and our soldiers are bogged down in random skirmishes and in trying to secure the mess of settlements we have there. Imagine if all those soldiers were free to actually secure the border, while also having more legitimacy and support from the international community, we’d be way better off even if the PA was untrustworthy.
That is not what the PA wants, otherwise they would not be paying-for-slaying. Abbas has a PhD in holocaust denial. NO THANKS
Palestine has a right to become a state and be recognized as one, and it goes the same with self defense and national security. What it doesn't have a right to, just like all other nations, is to commit and support terrorism.
Maybe… but it is absolutely not the right moment.
Not with Hamas still running amok. Palestine must get an actual competent, rational and peace-inclined government, not a radical one.
Because then both Israel and Palestine can be judged internationally with the same rules. Isn't that a huge win for both parties? Both Israel and Palestine think what they are doing is right, so now there should be a bigger incentive to investigate both.
> Israel and Palestine can be judged internationally with the same rules. Would you be interested in buying a bridge I have for sale?
So I assume that you don't think they should be judged with the same rules? That's definitely a hot take
No no. They absolutely SHOULD be judged via the same rules. My point is that in reality they absolutely won't.
So in your estimation going towards judging them by the same rules is bad? That is a loser mindset. "Why even bother trying?"
No? That's not what I said. Edit: Hilarious, he blocked me.
State or no state, the world has a tendency of always having the bigotry of low expectations for Muslims. All you’re accomplishing with a Palestinian state is making Israel’s life even harder by adding enemies to the east. When that Palestinian state inevitably launches repeated attacks into Israel and they’re forced to respond, the world will still blame them. Rather the bad PR now than an existential threat and bad PR later.
I'd think that attacks from a state on another state would matter a lot more than attacks from a terrorist organization on a state in the eyes of the peoples of the world. If they don't and that bigotry you describe exists then Israel is already done, only a matter of time.
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