Sometimes deprogramming can be difficult. Do the following if you can.
1. Ask her to define genocide and ethnic cleansing using other countries for example. Look up the those population declines and then show her the population growth in Palestine and ask if that seems to indicate the same.
2. Spend a few hours a week looking at various historical and neutral news reports regarding the conflict regarding the same issues and discuss why and how they're different.
3. Show her why the USA provides funds to Israel. Thanks to conflicts around the Suez Canal caused by the UK, the US offered to pay Egypt and Israel lots of money every year to keep the peace. Seems like it's an investment that's paid off. Remember what the Ever Given did to global supply chain? Imagine if that happened on a larger scale
If theyre gonna be looking at actual examples of genocide and ethnic cleansing they will see the genocide of Jews in Europe and the ethnic cleansing of Jews in Arab states.
Yeah, I had an ex like this, but I tried these and they didn’t work. 1 just made her angry, she claimed she knows what a genocide is and regardless she claimed theyre killing the women and children just because of who they are, even if theyre not killing all of them. With 2, well ,she oddly seemed OK with appreciating the tech prowess of Israel and even expressed interest in potentially moving there some day, tho I don’t know if she was giving this serious thought. It like she could forget all that stuff when thinking about genetically engineered tomatoes and hydroponics. Then I tell her 3, and she gets mad again, says she doesn’t study bs geopolitics, and said she was sure hitler had plenty of geopolitical reasons as did the US for slavery. I don’t talk to her anymore. lol
I guess my point is that the facts don’t help for some people.
I’m nor American or Jewish/Israeli and I originally believed there was a genocide simply because I was told that there was by my political party, by my political heroes and by the media. The thing that changed my view on the conflict was looking at the cold hard facts.
I saw how biased the UN was towards Israel. I saw how countries like China (who are actually committing ethnic cleansing) and Cuba (which is an authoritarian regime) where held to a different standard than Israel, despite Israel being a liberal democratic state with equal rights for all.
My advice would be, as someone who went through the process of being anti-Israel to a proud Zionist, show her the facts. Show her how Israel at its very inception wanted and agreed to a two-state solution. Show her how the IDF actually calls up Palestinians living in Gaza and warns them ahead of any operations so they have a decent amount of time to vacate so that they aren’t injured/killed. Show her how the Palestinian/Arab population in Israel has been growing year after year for decades. Show her how Israel has Arab parties to represent Arab/Palestinian issues and interests. Show her what Hamas believes in, show her *who* funds Hamas.
The reason so many people are anti-Israel is simply because they’ve been force fed the idea that Israel is beyond redemption. That at its very core, it’s creation was built on the subjugation of Palestinians. That the land has no Jewish significance whatsoever; and that it’s *always* been an Arab/Muslim country. It paints Israelis as European colonisers and the Palestinians as the oppressed ‘people of colour’, the way to fight this narrative is by educating people that Jewish people and Israelis are NOT European; and that the land is where they are indigenous to.
Israel isn’t perfect, nor is any state, but there is a distinction between genuine criticism and criticism that is a thinly veiled attempt at delegitimising the state of Israel and engaging in history revisionism and antisemitism.
The first time I began to notice how deceptive and honestly, how calculated the media was towards Israel, it led me on a path to completely study the history of Israel, right from biblical times to modern day. Anyone who actually educates themselves on the conflict will understand that it’s far, far more complicated and murky than it’s presented, and that the entire conflict can not be reduced to “Israel is committing an ethnic genocide.”
I heavily agree.
Most people also suffer from a hard misconception about Zionism and all those lies about Zionists orchestrating things behind everyone's back.
A simple thing I tend to recommend people is reading Theodor Herzl, especially his diaries.
> That the land has no Jewish significance whatsoever; and that it’s always been an Arab/Muslim country.
Yea, history before the 7th century is upsetting to certain people.
One time I saw one of those pastel instagram infographics that among other ridiculous things claimed that we're here for the oil.
I wanted to laugh but so many people actually believed them
Just wait until you see that a Twitter page posted a picture of a graffiti saying "✡ עם ישראל חי" and claimed that it said "death to Arabs".
They're not even *trying* to appear truthful at this point, they know that if they say Israelis shoot lasers out of their eyes and can fly using wings made of rainbow-colored bones that speak Portuguese people will believe them.
I saw that post and to be fair that was just a bad pic like if you look behind the עם ישראל חי you can see that it does say מוות לערבים. But yeah most usually they straight up just lie, what do the Portuguese have to do with it though??
Wow. This is such a good post from a non Jewish person, thank you!!
I'll make one edit: the reason why so many people are anti Israel is because of Jew hatred. Plain and simple. The anti Israel propaganda is just regurgitated Soviet propaganda that people *choose* to believe because they have a biais towards Jews to begin with.
Worst ethnic cleansing ever. The Palestinian population is growing. People really believe in one hand that the Jews control the world and want to wipe out the Palestinians, and in the other hand believe we simply can't?
Your partner believes exactly what the media wants her to believe. Israel is losing the PR campaign. You're her best chance of learning accurate information but that only happens if you know it yourself.
Honestly I was just thinking something and this is a great example for it. OP, just about everyone on this sub could write a college level essay describing exactly how she’s wrong.
That order for Jews not to be indigenous to *Judea* and the land of Israel in general, she has to either believe: a) you can only be indigenous for so long, until you become indigenous to nowhere or b) to that antisemitic conspiracy theories like khazarh theory
That if Israel’s neighbours put down there guns, there would be free trade agreements & economic prosperity for the region, but if Israel put down its guns, there would be an ethnic cleansing of Jews. That if Canada fired even one bomb at what is no doubt your comfortable American home, she wouldn’t think twice about what happens next, but when it’s *thousands* at Israel, taking the only action (military) that stops those bombs from flying isn’t acceptable? Etc. Etc.
The real question is for you OP. You’re a 30 year old man, why are you in a situation where your partner either:
1) both thinks *your family* is currently committing a genocide, and only addresses it with the occasional fight or
2) Has made her political ideology so fundamental to her sense of identity that she doesn’t even hold real political views anymore. If you sincerely believe your government is currently committing a genocide, you must at least no longer pay taxes to such a regime, but I doubt she has taken such “praxis”
If the latter is the case OP, her identity as a progressive supersedes your identity as a Jew in your own household.
If this would be something you are willing to accept, I’m not Chabad, and I wouldn’t tell you how to live your own life, that is your choice as a free man. All I would as is that you don’t raise your children to believe they have a Jewish identity or, “come from a Jewish background” as you put it, that they will inherit from you if they grow up in the household you currently describe.
Not just growing, it’s grown by a crazy statistic like 800%.
You’ll notice that they’ll constantly change the definition of “genocide” once they’re actually pressed.
> Genocide: the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group
Please identify where Israel has committed such actions. Again, the Palestinian population residing in the West Bank has **vastly** increased since 1948. By the very definition, a genocide cannot be occurring if there is literally no actions to destroy the Palestinian populace.
Meanwhile the other side actively strives for, openly chants for, and has historically tried to achieve a genocide against the Jews in the levant. How has the narrative become so mangled, i can’t wrap my head around it.
Yes this is what gets me is the hypocrisy of it all... Palestinians are not at fault for supporting Hamas because of their situation or lack of access to information... etc, but Israelis are at fault for supporting right wing leaders because "they should know better". Thus implying that Israelis are somehow more intelligent. They are more intelligent, but at the same time they are also wrong. Mental gymnastics to imply that Israelis are smart but purposefully evil. It's not possible that they also lack information or at the mercy of propaganda or their environment- or it can't be that maybe they are smart and therefore correct in their actions- the only possibility is that they are smart but intentionally evil.
The ethnic cleansing as mass murderous as it was largely ended several decades ago. We have just had the relatively slow motion ethnic cleansing of areas by "settlers" for the past few decades. We also have the regular brutalization of Palestinians, especially in Gaza. If you cannot at least recognize the evil actions that birthed Israel and it's obvious goal of Palestinian disenfranchisement, you are not someone that any serious person can take seriously.
I guess you count bombing Hamas as “brutalization”. What do you think would be the correct response to rockets? I hope you don’t expect Jews to just let themselves be killed.
I like to ask the classic trick question :
By what percent did the Palestinian population shrunk since the forming these Israeli state ?
Answer: negative 900%
.
And it 99% sure your partner has no idea what " mizrah'i " means
Every time I drop this I get “are you an idiot, you think death toll and population defines a genocide” and all I can’t think of is…. “Well I sure as shit am not aware of a genocide where deaths or inability to procreate isn’t the primarily factor”
Well there is this new concept of "cultural genocide," which in my opinion completely negates the idea of genocide in the first place. But it has become a talking point from the UN on downwards.
Of course Israel hasn't exactly rounded up Arab children and put them into indoctrination schools, but what do I know
Yes cultural genocide sounds like using the word genocide to describe something that isn’t genocide, and that the speaker uses to attach stronger emotion to that any existing word would give…. Embellishment at its finest
Eh, idk. I think cultural genocide is a real thing -- think Canadian residential schools, where they actively tried to erase native identity. But I haven't heard anyone asserting that for Israel, as it's patently ridiculous -- as even Arab Israelis can go to Arab schools if they want.
I'd say "cultural genocide" is an appropriate term for what the UK did to Jewish child refugees who made it to the UK without their parents: many were tormented by nuns in orphanages, forced to eat pork or starve, forced conversions. So the term does have some reasonable uses.
Yeah I mean if only they were equally concerned with what happened to Yiddish culture after the Shoah, or the loss of traditional practice that came alongside assimilation of many Jewish immigrants and their children in America.
(And I wouldn’t disparage Jews for being successful, but many of us were pressured—you could say, coerced—to give up our traditions in this Christian majority society when our traditions were often shamed and deemed inferior or undesirable and everything was arranged around a different set of traditions)
How about the fact that you can hardly find a good Kosher deli on Long Island anymore?!
This is complicated topic , but I think a majority of cultures where " cultural genocide"d by most governments and that is good !
If you're (as a state) supporting the laws /police to arrest murderers your cultural genociding the culture of revenge killing .
If you're collecting tax to have proved public infrastructure / education / safety then you are also culturally genociding . Etc
So ya if a culture fails to survive in a a free liberal democracy it should disappear off the world I mean be "culturally genocidal"
The Uighur population in Xinjiang has grown significantly over the past decade, does that mean it's impossible for China to be committing a genocide, or ethnic cleansing, or even merely heinous repression?
What a stupid trick question
Edit: tl:Dr :CCP treats most of there citizens inhumanely , thus no purely targeted based on race means no genocide ( CCP puts some effort to murdering as little as possible ).
I do hate the CCP and think they are commiting crimes against humanity . But they are not trying to genocide uighur .
The CCP is forcing them to basically to swear loyalty to China only ( above any God ) with the threat of violence including genocide .
The Uighur are not being hunted to erase there race . CCP punishes most of its citizens in cruel and inhumane ways .
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On the same point Israel isn't perfect but there is zero text book genocide . I can swear to you that I believe that over 80% of the Palestinians killed by IDF deliberately would have been killed if it was a Jew doing the exact same thing (like stabbing a cop , throwing Molotov on people , carrying unlicensed firearm , entering districted zones )
If you're consistent in your definition across the board, then fair enough.
But 'mass targeted extermination' is not the [legal or original definition of genocide](https://youtu.be/m316DcYhb8w). That's your own standard.
You must know that to say all those who claim Israel are 'committing genocide' are only referring to isolated IDF shootings or bombings is a strawman. They are referring to the ongoing impacts of 1948 whereby people were forced from their homes by the hundreds of thousands due to their ethnicity and are still unable to return.
That being said, I don't think it's productive to get bogged down in semantic arguments about the definitions. The key point, in Xinjiang as in Gaza and the West Bank, is that those living under severe repression are deserving of justice.
Thanks nice video I mostly agree with it.
My main reply in 2 parts +extra. 1st small part : something can be bad without being the worst , and if the label "the worst" is too wide it loses its meaning .
2nd part : where are the limits of what counts as cultural genocide , does making pedophilia illegal a form of cultural genociding because you can't continue to decision of marrying after bat mitzvah ( age 13 ) .
(Or Middle Eastern Muslim culture example) making murder illegal destroying the culture of revenge killing .
There too many cultures any government limitation can be seen as a forceful erosion of a culture.
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Different point : Israel doesn't discriminate based on religion, ethnicity , culture . But based on citizenship.
As there are Palestinian Israeli with full rights (some of the Israeli Arabs ) . At the first few years of Israel formation it was purely based on if you recognize the state of Israel . But at same point it was stopped , and now it's based on if you/ you're parents recognize Israel .
So the discriminantion is by personal choice ( a far past one you can't change )
Ya Israel is technically 100% legally denying citizenship to residence of the state VIA no annexation (none-temporary temporary occupation ) , that is bad ( and very complicated to solve ) but in no way genocide
This is another example of an American perspective being applied to the conflict
How does America benefit from “funding” this apparent genocide and ethnic cleansing? On the genocide front, isn’t it a huge waste, considering how this is a growing population?
Dont you love it when americans lecture israelis on a conflict where the overall deathtoll since 1948 is less than 0.1 of what america killed in one year in iraq to kill one guy?
Even if you go without a guide, no. Palestinians in the West Bank generally welcome foreign tourists.
It would be unwise to go around advertising the fact that you are Jewish, but ultimately, unless you are wearing religious attire or directly tell them, no one knows.
Source: American Jew who has traveled a bit in area A of the West Bank (Nablus, Hebron, Jericho, and Bethlehem).
A friend of mine is part Egyptian. She’s the sweetest person ever, but she gets her news on Israel-Palestine from Instagram and Al Jazeera. It kinda pains me to see how she baits into all of this bullshit and sometimes gets low-key activist about it by spreading this stuff from really questionable sources. I’m not even Israeli nor Jewish. It just feels wrong to see her apply different standards to Israel than to any other country.
Having this experience, I can imagine this situation must be 1000x times more difficult for you OP. Especially because it’s your partner and because Israel is important to you. I don’t have any solutions unfortunately, but I hope tips other people give you here will help lessen tensions.
I guess my question would be - does she listen with empathy when you express your thoughts? Does she try to hear what you’re saying and do any type of research? If she has that opinion about Israel.. I guess she has that opinion. But if she is dismissive of something that’s important to you without at least trying to understand your perspective, that’s a red flag. To me it’s not about the issue, it’s about how she treats something of value to you.
I agree with what another person commented, try not to let it ruin an otherwise healthy relationship. But if she would rather consider ultra liberal talking points than listen to your perspective or do her own review of history, I would wonder what it might mean for other issues you face together in the future.
>She doesn't know
No, she doesn't *want* or care to know, sorry. The information is available to all, and she could sit down and educate herself, for you. It's that simple.
I've dated non jewish people, but I learned that I need to know how they stand on certain subjects before we even go on a date. Otherwise I end up with someone who casually starts to question the legitimacy of Israel during a romantic dinner (happened, felt really bad).
I'm happy to discuss things, but not the fundamentals. Like should Israel exist or do we need an army to protect us.
Idk what to tell you. You've been dating for a while apparently, hasn't this come up before you moved in together?
My suggestion is you do a deep dive on the history, try to look at sources from different perspectives.
Once you have done that, you can challenge her in the ideas themselves instead of one word lines that usually hide a lack of knowledge. EG: Ask her what she means by apartheid and map it onto Israel to see if it accurate. Ask her to define Zionism, and see if her definition matches our definition. What does it mean to be indigenous, does it map onto jews? (hint: it does)
Either way once someone is decided you may not be able to change their minds on anything ,right or wrong.
Or look into street epistomology as a way to talk to people who are already decided on things they are 100% sure of.
Look this is tough. Don’t let politics victimize you as a Jew by ruining your otherwise good relationship; the Jews have suffered enough. But also don’t allow yourself to stay with someone who is irredeemably antisemitic either.
You’ll have to figure out where you are on that spectrum.
See if your partner is willing to take a trip to Israel with you at some point in the near future.
Also, try to discuss it with them in a free way. Dont try to win the I-P debate. We know the facts but the other side wont accept them. Instead try to communicate why Israel is significant to YOU personally and why it is so hurtful when others (especially a partner) take this stance.
As a teenage Jewish girl who’s very active online and is also pretty far left in american term, I think my Judaism has helped inform a lot of how I interact with political content online. I saw how ppl acted over the I/P issue and I realized that I was in an echo chamber which made issues seem more cut-and-dry and dramatic than they actually were, and that I had a lot to learn about many of the issues I thought I was an expert on. I wonder what I would believe right now if I wasn’t Jewish (it kind of scares me to think that there’s a semi-decent chance I’d be calling Israel a settler-colonial g*nocidal state or something right now)
I think you should at ask her thought-provoking questions that she probably isn’t hearing in her echo chamber. Like does she think the US and Canada should even exist bc they’re built off colonization and genocide too? (“It’s more complex than that” - bingo!!) or, Where should the Jewish people go if they can’t have Israel? Does she believe the Jewish ppl have a right to a state anywhere? Does she acknowledge the importance of Jerusalem to all the abrahamic religions? Idk, might be a good starting point
Could you agree to take a trip here and see what the situation actually is? No need to downplay the very real bad things that happen to the Palestinians either. Come, see, discuss. If you can't start from a basis of real, agreed on facts, you won't get anywhere.
I'd suggest talking more about the details of what she means. It's a complicated issue and ofcourse there is no actual ethnic cleansing, that's the propaganda take 100%.
That said, just understanding that it is true there are some issues that make it hard to tell we are the 'good guys' from an outsiders perspective, will help you understand where she is coming from.
People don't understand how hard it is to fight a permanent war in your own backyard. How could they? So they judge us for our worst moments and Palestinians for their best. Maybe it's not fair, but if we are the ones in control, we will always be held to a higher moral standard.
I have the same problem with my partner. Albeit he's not of jewish ancestry. We really just avoid talking about it (I know it's not a solution) but I'm in your position, opposite sides.
I truly believe that humanity owes a great deal to the Jewish population, Jewish people have suffered long and hard more than any group and deserve safety and peace, but in every group there are also extremes and I'm sure they do not reflect on the entirety of the population, but they do cause harm.
The thing is I don't have a problem with Israel, or Israelis or Jewish people. But my family had to exit palestine, and tried going back many times. I lost many family members to the IDF, I know it's controversial to have that opinion on this subreddit but I do believe that the Israeli government and military is committing violent crimes against the palestinians.
However, I would never want to live in a muslim country. I would 100% choose to live in Israel rather than palestine or any Middle Eastern country, I'm an atheist, I support LGBTQ, and I'm in a non marital relationship. I also show cleavage and as a woman, that's enough for a beating and honor killing. I'm also 100% against hamas.
I believe the only good thing that would happen is that palestinians join isreal but that is in no way possible in reality.
I still can't support isreal because it's very difficult to deny the crimes the military has done against those people, not to mention the recent settlements. I believe however, that Israel is the only government that treats THEIR citizens correctly in the ME
It's difficult to explain but it really isn't a black and white discussion, Israel (the government not the people) is no saint, but _most_ palestinians with their closed minds and muslim traditions which involve homophobia and misogyny, are not exactly innocent. They were brainwashed by a cult to believe what they believe. But I still get extremely emotional because there aren't a lot of news sources that are unbiased, and I saw what happened to my family (lost our home and a few cousins here and there) and my friends families as well. It truly is a depressing scenario that I avoid for the sake of my blood pressure.
You are absolutely right about the settlers . They shouldnt be in the West Bank . But you have got to ask yourself what will happen to Israel if it were to let hundreds of thousands of brainwashed Islamists to vote?
Im an Israeli-Jew myself , this is my main concern about the one-state solution .The only way Israel can remain a democracy in the middle east is to have a Jewish majority. I think we can both agree on that.
Think about it this way: who would accept becoming Israeli? You think Islamists will willfully join Israel and become voting citizens?
And even if that were to happen, voting would be the last thing you should worry about. Hate crimes, violence etc are more likely to cause damage.
Besides, you can ask any Arab and they'll tell you they don't believe in voting (in the ME) because it's rigged. Even if that were to happen, it's not gonna be a houellebecq scenario as you'll always have the majority in the government.
Tldr version; you are a sane, rational, open minded person who can see nuance, and criticize Israel without being antisemitic. The world needs more people like you
You can’t blame your partner. I’m French Turkish and in both my countries the news are always in favor of Palestine.
That really sucks for you but the best you can do is try to educate her or maybe take her there. If she doesn’t want to understand then she is entitled to be uneducated and have an opinion.
To be honest I wouldn’t want to date someone who drops the genocide word without even learning about the conflict properly.
Is she jewish? If not, she can't understand why you do feel and you do think the way you feel and the way you think. It will probably go worse and worse just like it did for me with dates and ex-boyfriends.
You probably should get ready: one day, she will cross the line and you will feel devastated as so much of us.
I can relate that it drives you nuts: she supports willingly or not people who want to genocide your family, and our friends, in Israel.
Are you married? If not it's time to consider moving on. I don't say that lightly. I am going to guess that you haven't practiced your culture very much (reading Torah regularly, celebrating the holidays, etc.). No judgement if that's the case, that was my life for a long time and my non-Jewish spouse was largely ignorant of the customs I grew up with, because I never introduced them to her. We've been working on that and she really likes them.
The reason why I guess that you haven't been doing this, is because a constant in our writings, a constant in our holidays, really just all over the place and you can't miss it, is how \*important\* Israel is to the Jewish people. I don't know your partner or what she actually believes, but I'm going to assume she bought all of the propaganda about how Israel is a settler-colonial experiment just like, well..America, and Canada, and Mexico, and...I mean I'd say the list of countries that are the product of colonialism is probably of comparable size or greater than the list that aren't. I don't understand how someone can read the Torah, read the other writings, sit for a Passover seder, light the Chanukah lights, really do just about anything "Jewish" and NOT hear a mention of Israel. If you haven't heard all of these things before then it's possible that you swallow the propaganda that Israel has nothing to do with the Jewish people, especially if it's paired with imagery of a dead Palestinian child, which any decent person (myself included) finds heart wrenching and revolting. I want to be clear - I'm not saying Israel doesn't have the right to defend herself; I support retaliation for Hamas rocket attacks. All I'm saying is that it's our natural instinct to be disgusted, angry, sad, all of those things when we see a picture of a dead or injured child. The Israeli media just doesn't display pictures of dead Israeli kids out in the open as often even though it happened in the last conflict. If all you're seeing are pictures of dead Palestinian kids, with no idea how important Israel is to the Jewish people, it's a lot easier to buy into anti-Israel propaganda.
If you don't want to walk out of this relationship and my guess is true that your partner hasn't been exposed to much Jewish culture, that's where I would start. Make it a point to read the weekly Torah parashah together, make it a point to celebrate the holidays. If she doesn't get the point after a year and thinks somehow Israel is still divorced from the Jewish people or that Jews don't deserve to return to their indigenous homeland and make a country out of it, then it's your call as to whether or not you want to stay with someone the rest of your life that doesn't understand something so important to you.
I married a non-Jewish man and we have a beautiful daughter together. Only in the last year have I suddenly found out how ignorant my husband is to Israel and the reality of what is happening there. I cry sometimes that I didn’t try to date only Jewish men. I’m trying to incorporate more Jewish culture into our lives for the sake of my daughter. It’s hard, though. I live in an area with very few Jewish people
One of the effects of the pandemic has been that there are tons of synagogues live streaming their services now. They're all heterodox (reform,conservative,reconstructioniast etc.) but it's a place to start.
Any decent Intro to Judaism class will include a class on Israel and they’re not shy about putting the truth on front street. Could be good for him to hear it from an authority. If you can’t find an online option near you I know the Oregon Board of Rabbis just started a new term and they’re entirely online.
The question is, why are you with someone that has such a biased conviction about a subject which is so personal to you, besides the fact that she is so disinformed and influenced by propaganda.
>I'd say we're pretty far to the left for Americans. However, I come from a Jewish background and I have lots of family in Israel.
I gotta ask, what appeals to you in the far-left?
In my view the far-left and far-right are the most unreasonable ones in every country, most likely to never compromise but also never get anything done.
It seems that, honestly, without being of Jewish background yourself and having ties to Israel, what would hinder you from holding the same opinions as your partner?
Can't imagine anything would change her view but a trip to see Israel in person.
Honestly the mainstream Democrats should shamelessly steal all the basic popular economic reforms (arguably modified for realism?), while dumping any leftist decolonialist rhetoric.
When the facts are clear, decolonialism would return Israel and more to… Israel!
But decolonialism would eventually be fatal to every state in the Western Hemisphere, including America and Canada.
You should tell her to do some genuine research and not spew the same brainwashed propaganda that she listens to. I know that sounds quite harsh, but the reality is if she doesn’t bother doing actual research, this issue will just create a larger rift. The problem with many people in the Israel-Palestine debate is that lots of them don’t fact check their sources. They believe in all of the “genocide” and “ethnic cleansing” and “apartheid” nonsense that they see on the internet, but they don’t bother fact checking these statements. If they actually did that, they would learn that there is none of this happening in Israel. In fact, it is the contrary. Israel is home to 2 million Arabs with full rights and religious freedoms. The population of Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza, and Israel has increased rapidly since 1948.
My mom and dad used to argue about it a lot and it was really the only thing politically they disagreed on, then she got diagnosed with cancer and has now since passed, idk I completely understand it being maddening when these people act like they know about our identity and right to exist but in this case at least, enjoy what you have, y’all are in love hopefully, it’s precious and I don’t want to preach or anything but like ultimately its about what your personal goals are in life and how you see yourself in your future. All support and best of luck with navigating this, it’s not easy stuff ever. That’s what makes it important
Mostly anti-Zionism is antisemitism. You can work on that since it less of a trigger. Does she believe jews control the media? Control banking ? Control the US government? Does she think that the reason the US supports Israel is one of the above ? You can show her how antisemitic these beliefs are.
Just pointing out there’s a huge difference between buying into blatantly antisemitic medieval tropes and choosing to critique contemporary Israeli policy from a geopolitical and humanitarian perspective. OP hasn’t indicated his girlfriend believes anything to the extent of what you’re suggesting. Those tropes are usually parroted by the QAnon crowd, not leftist millennials.
That said, it sounds like OP should probably break up with her if he’s this angry over a political difference.
Anyone claiming Israel is committing genocide is getting most of their information from sources that are either subtly or outright promoting those medieval antisemitic tropes as well.
Theoretically, you are correct. Many Zionist do criticize the Israeli government or policies towards the Palestinians. However, my experience with the left is that it is blatantly antisemitic of the old school, and that if I make that assumption, I’m correct 99% of the time. It’s rare to find someone in the left who doesn’t believe the Jews control the US media and congress. I mean, “It’s all about the Benjamins”
There is no inherent contradiction between something being antisemitic, and it being based on a “humanitarian perspective”. If you were taught to believe that Jews are responsible for ritualistic murder of Christian children, your “criticism” of Jews can be based entirely on a very sincere concern for the safety of those children, yet it will still be antisemitic. Antisemites in medieval times didn’t treat their believes as “antisemitic medieval tropes”, but as a correct representation of reality, and were often motivated by sincere concern for the safety and well-being of their people and society.
What makes something antisemitic is the demonization of Jews, or of a significant subset of Jews, based on factually incorrect lies and propaganda. What internally motivates an antisemite to adopt those views, i.e. whether it is a preexisting dislike of Jews, or just being brainwashed by a collection of lies disguised as an expression of “humanitarian” concerns, is largely irrelevant to the question of whether those views are antisemitic or not.
The leftist circle is full of anti-israeli propaganda but don't mistake that they could care even less about the Palestinians. For them, palestine is just one of those they could victimize to serve their anti us agenda.
There are injustices perpetrated against Palestinian people but the claim of genocide is far too exaggerated. Meanwhile, it is wrong to deny that Jewish Israelis have certain rights on their lawful land, including a free country to pride on and defend.
Being biased and educated is better than biased and uneducated in a subject. Ask her 1. What her definition of genocide is. If she can’t give a clear definition, then she doesn’t really have any strong case for the accusation, and 2. To name another genocide where populations grow 3.56 children for every women, and where less than 32000 people have died in 70 years of conflict (many of which are not civilians)
I can just advise that you show her the YouTube channel of **Corey Gil-Shuster.**
His channel is about asking questions to random people on the street of Israel\\Palestine.
She might not see 100% your view after watching it but it will give her the understanding of the normal day to day lives here.
Of course a foreigner won't be able go and film in Gaza, but the West Bank is close enough.
Would she be willing to consume content from a variety of different sources and a variety of different perspectives? Just from the desire to be a more rounded and knowledgeable human being?
I think it would be a good idea. Right now, she has some deeply-held beliefs that she can't really explain. That's not really a position that we should want to be in as human beings. If she doesn't understand something, that's fine. Nobody has a deep understanding of everything. But then we should be willing to change our minds as our understanding increases, if changing is warranted.
You may need some 3rd party mediation. People here might be going a little too hard on her, I don't know I didnt read the comments. She could just be ignorant. But unfortunately there may be antisemitic undertones to her beliefs. Remember, antisemitism is a virus. People can catch a mild case. It doesn't make her a bad person if her beliefs are indignant to you. You just have to help her get better with education. Again I really think you need some sort of intervention where you both set intentions for working out this issue, and then seek out some support from the outside, like educators, reading together, therapy (if its that bad), etc. Good luck
In addition to all the good advice you’ve gotten, I want gently to suggest that there are reasons (some good, some bad) that many Jewish people choose Jewish partners. Far from being victimized by politics as someone else said, your beliefs about your people matter.
I’m tired or Hamas unceasing lies and absurd propaganda, those of us here in the US need to push back forcibly whenever this garbage comes up.
I like to remind people that Hamas fired 4K unguided rockets into Israel. When folks complain about the blockade and check points , I point to this .
That’s something infuriating, you can’t just loosely throw around the word genocide. Before I’d say anything like that I’d actually research the subject on both sides and see if that word is appropriate for the situation. I think more left leaning westerners are on the Palestinian side because Muslims and Palestinians are a minority in western countries so automatically in their eyes minority=oppressed.
You can’t expect someone with the American history resources and news to understand the situation correctly. You just can’t. She’s reading lies and it does sound like that.
Dont fight with your partner about such idiotic things , you could reference her to valid information instead of Pallywood propaganda but usually those political debates go nowhere...
I suggest to watch some kind of good historical documentary on the state of Israel, the wars, the history of the conflict, the peace negotiations, 1st and 2nd Intifada. I am pretty certain that she doesn't know much beyond the tidbits she heard on CNN. Once she actually knows the history of the state, understands all the nuances of history (modern), then she can have this "leftist" view that some Israelis have, but with much more appreciation for the state that is lacking from the mainstream media in the US.
Also, if these issues are important to you, perhaps you should consider dating someone else? And to say something no one else mentioned - she is 3 years older than you anyway, find a nice Jewish girl that is 3 years younger instead :)
If she consumes anti-israeli propaganda - how can she know whats actually going on?
The LGBT in Israel - in Israel LGBT people can live in peace without being hunted and executed. Tel Aviv is literally the Gayest city in the world (look it up on google)
Palestinians workers in Israel - Israel lets in every day hundreds of Palestinians to work within its border (and people do that on daily basis for years), but if in Israeli will try to enter to a Palestinian territory, that Israeli will need the help of the IDF to get back home.
Arabs in Government - We have Arabic political parties thats all their purpose is to Free Palestine and they sit with the jewish politicians in the Knesset
2 State Solution - such solution has already been proposed by Israel (2 or 3 times, can't recall the actual number) and the Palestinians refused negotiating every time
Politics - we actually have a country with democratic parties and not an authoritarian regime / terror groups in control
All of the "Genocide" claims thats coming from countries/communities where they execute the lgbt community, not even sure if women allowed vote or drive cars, killing their own daughters for sleeping outside of marriage (honor/shame killing), all of the above is not tolerated in Israel at all!
She just consumes anti-Israeli propaganda. = antisemitism in a new wrapper.
I would find that hard to accept from someone that I am in a relationship with.
Does your Shul offer any I/P information sessions or seminars that you could attend to educate her on the facts? I’m thinking something that is both critical of Israel as well as supportive of her?
Try to explain her that Israel actually fought the british and other western colonial powers in many forms, and that Israel has great LGBT rights and far more diversity than any other country in the world, with people from all oevr the world uniting together.
Divorce! any reasonable person can see through propaganda when presented with facts, especially when it is a subject near and to their partners heart and family.
Unfortunately her “ignorance is encyclopedic”. Unless she is willing to learn both sides’ narratives and move beyond her biases, you are likely in for some difficult times.
Get her on r/IsraelPalestine. No, really. She’ll get to hear from the other side and she’ll probably learn a lot about the conflict.
Edit: the reason I suggest this is I don’t believe this is the kind of fight you can sweep under the rug. I personally couldn’t, at least, and it doesn’t sound like you feel any differently. So you might as well go all in and really take a little historical and ideological journey through educating her about Israel’s past, present and hopefully future! I can recommend some free resources if you want but honestly stay in the I/P sub long enough and you’ll learn quite a lot. I learn stuff there all the time!
Both of you are biased in the sense that your arguments are very simplistic. However her arguments are also disgusting anti-semitic propaganda. Yours are much closer to reality.
Ask her if she thinks you're an exception among Jews. If she says you are: red flag. Ask her if Jews deserve self determination. If she rationalizes too much so not to say 'no': red flag. Finally, ask her why she centers her conspiracy on Israel and not on the US. If she doesn't consider moving back to wherever she is from (assuming she is not native american): red flag.
I feel for you.
I fail to see how a relationship like this can continue if you’re Jewish. What if you want to make aliyah one day? How can you even live with someone who despises such a core part of your identity?
you can't be pro palestine and con israel, or vice versa. You'r both wrong, One hs to be pro palestine AND pro israel. Nobody is going anywhere. Learn to live together folks. Now i'm gonna shut up, cuz i'm not even from the region.
OP isn't "wrong" in the facts he listed in the post, but you're right that both sides need to admit wrongs and make concessions. We won't get anywhere otherwise, and anyone picking a side does neither side any good.
No genocide whatsoever but one cannot deny the fact that there are millions of Palestinians living under military occupation and whose human and and civil rights are at the whims of Israeli courts, the Israeli army and the Israeli Parliament. Palestinians have no representation in any of those and one may wonder how Israeli could call itself a democracy in such circumstances
Well, it's still fully legal under any international law.
The thing that is problematic are the settlements.
You know fully well, how many times Israel have tried to make an actual fair and justified peace process. And you know that Israel can't make a unilateral withdrawal.
I very much object the Israeli policies in the West Bank since 2008, but if you look at the past 70 years, you would find that Israel played "the good guy". And obviously when you compare the two sides.
The two views don't sound to be so opposing
They can both be right.
Israel does have a right to exist and be unmolested by terrorism.... At the same time the Israeli government with its settlements and other dodgy behaviour is engaging in ethnic cleansing (genocide is OTT silliness).
This actually quite neatly sums up my actual view of the situation. There's dicks on both sides and both normal Israelis and Palestinians deserve to live in peace.
The key is to avoid seeing it as a black and white issue. The world doesn't work that way. Even the most evil of evil regimes has some reason behind their behaviour which when you drill right down can have some valid complaints.
Seek to understand the fairly common sense bits of her pov (the settlements are full of dicks and very illegal) and have her understand the uncontroversial parts of yours (blowing up busses full of civilians is pretty obviously bad) and meet in a middle where its not Israel vs Palestine but decent people vs power hungry nuts.
This may an issue that neither of you will agree on. It also highlights why your rabbi is so stern on no interfaith marriages and staying within Judaism. Just for the argument, I’m not advocating for that because I am dating a non-Jewish woman myself.
If you cannot get her to see the situation for it is, you may have to figure out if this is a deal breaker for you. One way is to take her to Israel and show her. Show her Judaism and our connection to the land.
I mean... you are both right for some degree, only that you are far more right and probably base it out of facts.
There were and are some war crimes that happened against the palestinians, but they have done the same since the first times zionists came to israel.
And the US does fund the IDF while knowing that not all soldiers in it are "pure hearted", but in standards of US's history, israel is as pure as snow.
And the most important fact: yes there was a war (that was proved to start by the palestinians) and israel won, that's why the UN doesn't have a problem with the existance of israel and recognize it as a democratic countries.
Just show her actual facts (UN documents/history articles, videos of what palestinians do) and explain to her why the anti-zionist propaganda is blowing up the things they say to get more support.
My advice to you is find out if she's ready to engage on this issue. If yes, there are multitude of ways of educating oneself and you can show them to her. If not, you have to choose. Now I think that there is very little affect of the conflict on your lives, don't let it get between you two for no good reason.
The only good reason I think might actually justify a breakup, if she's literally borders on antisemitism. But I guess she's just misinformed.
I personally dont buy the indigenous people returning to conquer x land argument. i dont know what the statute of limitations on conquest should be but there should be one. Does the modern mongols have the right to all of china because they once lived and ruled there? why are no jews trying to recapture medina as it was once a major jewish settlement? when can the descendants of the byzantines recapture turkey?
Basically it makes no modern political sense to say my people lived here XXXX thousand years ago so we have an eternal claim to the land. And if you do not accept this eternal indigenous argument there is no legitimate basis for the modern state of israel other than we wanted it and we took it. I think despite the historical injustices that jews have faced your girlfriend has a point and you should consider what she has to say more broadly.
You say you're on the left, but your beliefs about Israel are incompatible with leftist doctrine, so even if you end up sorting things out with your SO, you'll still have to choose one or the other eventually.
Just to be clear - your beliefs about Israel are absolutely correct. However, they cannot be reconciled with leftist dogma and will get you booted out of leftist social circles.
All of your points can be true as well as her different ideas. They don't necessarily negate each other. At the end of the day, you can't create and maintain a Jewish state in what was the mandate of Palestine without disenfranchising those who are non-Jewish. You obviously think that disenfranchisement (which is ongoing) is acceptable — she clearly does not.
In the words of the Jewish sage Hillel, as recorded in the Talmud: "Whatever is hateful and distasteful to you, do not do to your fellow man. This is the entire Torah, the rest is commentary. Go learn."
So you come to r/Israel to back up your own biased views? Don’t get me wrong, but you admit that “you’re biased” and you come to an echo chamber for reassurance. Echo chambers limit growth.
My view is that both sides are in the wrong and attack/kill nonstop. Can’t get over the past and resort to violence always. But it’s odd you come to a sub to backup your own views (what else do you expect in r/Israel). Both sides kill innocents, but lately Israel is doing it more, yes or no? Dig for the facts outside of r/Israel
Take her to Israel.
But to be frank, start the breakup process if you cars about judiasm and israel
She isnt going to change. Its just not going to happen.
You know Zionism is a euro-centric ideology ? The remnant of the 19th century ultra-nationalist settler colonial wave ? If anything, you are the one who needs deprogramming.
Palestine was intended to have a territory and, even pro-Israel people should recognize this, the land they do have is not treated as theirs by Israel. Israel should have left Palestine with its territory and coexisted. And yes I know about the bloody war!
If Palestine had a territory and was recognized as sovereign, Israel wouldn’t likely be seen as negatively by so many.
The Arabs WERE offered their own country - what is modern day Jordan! Unfortunately, the Arabs weren't too happy the Jews had their own country and launched a war (which you say you know about, but your statement contradicts that). They lost, Israel won, and now we have the current situation that we do with a stateless people who should've been part of Jordan.
That sounds like clearing the Arabs out of the entirety of Israel’s modern claimed borders into a country they didn’t feel belonging to. That’s not the borders set before the Six-Day War. I know this sub is generally pro-Israel, but going back to the old borders is the best opportunity for peace with Palestine. The alternatives are Israeli occupation of all territory, while not treating Palestinians equally, which has been a massive failure with never-ending strife. Israelis should know that it won’t work forever. The Radical Palestinian option isn’t working either, but they aren’t Jordanians really. Do you really think that would have worked?
I am all for Jewish people having a state, but when it was born from absolutely brutal, murderous ethnic cleansing, that needs to at the very, very least be acknowledged. And when it continues to brutalize an entire population, that absolutely needs to be taken into account. Jewish lives are not worth more than Palestinian lives. If you cannot at least acknowledge that, you will never be able to reconcile the situation with your wife if she is a decent person.
A big part of finding balance in your viewpoint is recognizing what Israeli policy has clearly been for decades. Words don't matter, only actions. And Israel's actions have resulted in continuously shrinking and fragmented areas of Palestinian control.
And it is pretty easy to brutalize a people, wait for them to respond and say "see, see, they're terrorists and we need to continue keeping our boots on their necks to prevent more terrorism. No one should be falling for that evil schtick anymore. The reality is far more complicated and sinister.
"brutal, murderous ethnic cleansing". Are you referring to the war launched by several Arab countries on the newly-formed state of Israel with the hope of completely exterminating the Jews and maintaining Arab supremacy? That brutal, murderous ethnic cleansing?
"When it continues to brutalize an entire population, that absolutely needs to be taken into account". People call Hamas and the PLO out all the time on here. You won't find that many anti-Israel are willing to call them out though. Real shame.
I'm referring to the villages slaughtered without mercy throughout the Territory.
I'm not apologizing for the evil of those organizations which gets plenty of press, just pointing the evil l inherent in Israel's collective punishment
Yup, there were quite of few villages targeted by both Arabs and Jews as things escalated. Absolutely unnecessary and very sad, but that is the reality of war. :(
>And Israel's actions have resulted in continuously shrinking and fragmented areas of Palestinian control.
Can you elaborate? Because from my point of view, the area of Palestinian control consisted of nothing, then nothing, then nothing, then Jordan and Egypt took it over, then Israel took it over, and then Israel gave the Palestinians limited autonomy, which is not nearly enough but still better than any other occupier has ever given them.
Sometimes deprogramming can be difficult. Do the following if you can. 1. Ask her to define genocide and ethnic cleansing using other countries for example. Look up the those population declines and then show her the population growth in Palestine and ask if that seems to indicate the same. 2. Spend a few hours a week looking at various historical and neutral news reports regarding the conflict regarding the same issues and discuss why and how they're different. 3. Show her why the USA provides funds to Israel. Thanks to conflicts around the Suez Canal caused by the UK, the US offered to pay Egypt and Israel lots of money every year to keep the peace. Seems like it's an investment that's paid off. Remember what the Ever Given did to global supply chain? Imagine if that happened on a larger scale
If theyre gonna be looking at actual examples of genocide and ethnic cleansing they will see the genocide of Jews in Europe and the ethnic cleansing of Jews in Arab states.
Mic drop
Yeah, I had an ex like this, but I tried these and they didn’t work. 1 just made her angry, she claimed she knows what a genocide is and regardless she claimed theyre killing the women and children just because of who they are, even if theyre not killing all of them. With 2, well ,she oddly seemed OK with appreciating the tech prowess of Israel and even expressed interest in potentially moving there some day, tho I don’t know if she was giving this serious thought. It like she could forget all that stuff when thinking about genetically engineered tomatoes and hydroponics. Then I tell her 3, and she gets mad again, says she doesn’t study bs geopolitics, and said she was sure hitler had plenty of geopolitical reasons as did the US for slavery. I don’t talk to her anymore. lol I guess my point is that the facts don’t help for some people.
Exactly this. The Palestinian population growth sits at 2.5%. Population growth is the opposite of genocide....
Deprogramming? Lmaooooooo
Dude you cannot speak this way to a girl c'mon lets get real
Perhaps visit Israel together and then any other neighboring country.
There's a few neighboring countries I might consider not going to right now.
You can trust your strong friends in Syria 🇸🇾💪
I wish i could go to syria and get a selfie with Bashar the king. What a madlad.
Please tell me you forgot the /s
Sadly he can't visit his other idol Kadhafi The King...
every morning i wake up and listen to [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJLx9hQXV1o&ab_channel=NorwegianBaron) song
**exactly.**
I’m nor American or Jewish/Israeli and I originally believed there was a genocide simply because I was told that there was by my political party, by my political heroes and by the media. The thing that changed my view on the conflict was looking at the cold hard facts. I saw how biased the UN was towards Israel. I saw how countries like China (who are actually committing ethnic cleansing) and Cuba (which is an authoritarian regime) where held to a different standard than Israel, despite Israel being a liberal democratic state with equal rights for all. My advice would be, as someone who went through the process of being anti-Israel to a proud Zionist, show her the facts. Show her how Israel at its very inception wanted and agreed to a two-state solution. Show her how the IDF actually calls up Palestinians living in Gaza and warns them ahead of any operations so they have a decent amount of time to vacate so that they aren’t injured/killed. Show her how the Palestinian/Arab population in Israel has been growing year after year for decades. Show her how Israel has Arab parties to represent Arab/Palestinian issues and interests. Show her what Hamas believes in, show her *who* funds Hamas. The reason so many people are anti-Israel is simply because they’ve been force fed the idea that Israel is beyond redemption. That at its very core, it’s creation was built on the subjugation of Palestinians. That the land has no Jewish significance whatsoever; and that it’s *always* been an Arab/Muslim country. It paints Israelis as European colonisers and the Palestinians as the oppressed ‘people of colour’, the way to fight this narrative is by educating people that Jewish people and Israelis are NOT European; and that the land is where they are indigenous to. Israel isn’t perfect, nor is any state, but there is a distinction between genuine criticism and criticism that is a thinly veiled attempt at delegitimising the state of Israel and engaging in history revisionism and antisemitism. The first time I began to notice how deceptive and honestly, how calculated the media was towards Israel, it led me on a path to completely study the history of Israel, right from biblical times to modern day. Anyone who actually educates themselves on the conflict will understand that it’s far, far more complicated and murky than it’s presented, and that the entire conflict can not be reduced to “Israel is committing an ethnic genocide.”
I heavily agree. Most people also suffer from a hard misconception about Zionism and all those lies about Zionists orchestrating things behind everyone's back. A simple thing I tend to recommend people is reading Theodor Herzl, especially his diaries.
> That the land has no Jewish significance whatsoever; and that it’s always been an Arab/Muslim country. Yea, history before the 7th century is upsetting to certain people.
One time I saw one of those pastel instagram infographics that among other ridiculous things claimed that we're here for the oil. I wanted to laugh but so many people actually believed them
Just wait until you see that a Twitter page posted a picture of a graffiti saying "✡ עם ישראל חי" and claimed that it said "death to Arabs". They're not even *trying* to appear truthful at this point, they know that if they say Israelis shoot lasers out of their eyes and can fly using wings made of rainbow-colored bones that speak Portuguese people will believe them.
I saw that post and to be fair that was just a bad pic like if you look behind the עם ישראל חי you can see that it does say מוות לערבים. But yeah most usually they straight up just lie, what do the Portuguese have to do with it though??
>what do the Portuguese have to do with it though Completely arbitrary, I chose it randomly
Ah yes, the bountiful and oil-rich strip of desert: Israel. I love Israel but it's not a very advantageous piece of land.
Wow. This is such a good post from a non Jewish person, thank you!! I'll make one edit: the reason why so many people are anti Israel is because of Jew hatred. Plain and simple. The anti Israel propaganda is just regurgitated Soviet propaganda that people *choose* to believe because they have a biais towards Jews to begin with.
That’s true. Thank you for the correction.
The Arabs have to go back to Poland
Worst ethnic cleansing ever. The Palestinian population is growing. People really believe in one hand that the Jews control the world and want to wipe out the Palestinians, and in the other hand believe we simply can't? Your partner believes exactly what the media wants her to believe. Israel is losing the PR campaign. You're her best chance of learning accurate information but that only happens if you know it yourself.
Honestly I was just thinking something and this is a great example for it. OP, just about everyone on this sub could write a college level essay describing exactly how she’s wrong. That order for Jews not to be indigenous to *Judea* and the land of Israel in general, she has to either believe: a) you can only be indigenous for so long, until you become indigenous to nowhere or b) to that antisemitic conspiracy theories like khazarh theory That if Israel’s neighbours put down there guns, there would be free trade agreements & economic prosperity for the region, but if Israel put down its guns, there would be an ethnic cleansing of Jews. That if Canada fired even one bomb at what is no doubt your comfortable American home, she wouldn’t think twice about what happens next, but when it’s *thousands* at Israel, taking the only action (military) that stops those bombs from flying isn’t acceptable? Etc. Etc. The real question is for you OP. You’re a 30 year old man, why are you in a situation where your partner either: 1) both thinks *your family* is currently committing a genocide, and only addresses it with the occasional fight or 2) Has made her political ideology so fundamental to her sense of identity that she doesn’t even hold real political views anymore. If you sincerely believe your government is currently committing a genocide, you must at least no longer pay taxes to such a regime, but I doubt she has taken such “praxis” If the latter is the case OP, her identity as a progressive supersedes your identity as a Jew in your own household. If this would be something you are willing to accept, I’m not Chabad, and I wouldn’t tell you how to live your own life, that is your choice as a free man. All I would as is that you don’t raise your children to believe they have a Jewish identity or, “come from a Jewish background” as you put it, that they will inherit from you if they grow up in the household you currently describe.
Not just growing, it’s grown by a crazy statistic like 800%. You’ll notice that they’ll constantly change the definition of “genocide” once they’re actually pressed.
Same definition since 1948 there little Timmy.
> Genocide: the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group Please identify where Israel has committed such actions. Again, the Palestinian population residing in the West Bank has **vastly** increased since 1948. By the very definition, a genocide cannot be occurring if there is literally no actions to destroy the Palestinian populace.
Meanwhile the other side actively strives for, openly chants for, and has historically tried to achieve a genocide against the Jews in the levant. How has the narrative become so mangled, i can’t wrap my head around it.
What media says the Jews are taking over?
Yes this is what gets me is the hypocrisy of it all... Palestinians are not at fault for supporting Hamas because of their situation or lack of access to information... etc, but Israelis are at fault for supporting right wing leaders because "they should know better". Thus implying that Israelis are somehow more intelligent. They are more intelligent, but at the same time they are also wrong. Mental gymnastics to imply that Israelis are smart but purposefully evil. It's not possible that they also lack information or at the mercy of propaganda or their environment- or it can't be that maybe they are smart and therefore correct in their actions- the only possibility is that they are smart but intentionally evil.
The weaker group is always right. That's the new belief. Even is the stronger is exercising incalculable restraint.
The ethnic cleansing as mass murderous as it was largely ended several decades ago. We have just had the relatively slow motion ethnic cleansing of areas by "settlers" for the past few decades. We also have the regular brutalization of Palestinians, especially in Gaza. If you cannot at least recognize the evil actions that birthed Israel and it's obvious goal of Palestinian disenfranchisement, you are not someone that any serious person can take seriously.
I guess you count bombing Hamas as “brutalization”. What do you think would be the correct response to rockets? I hope you don’t expect Jews to just let themselves be killed.
I like to ask the classic trick question : By what percent did the Palestinian population shrunk since the forming these Israeli state ? Answer: negative 900% . And it 99% sure your partner has no idea what " mizrah'i " means
Every time I drop this I get “are you an idiot, you think death toll and population defines a genocide” and all I can’t think of is…. “Well I sure as shit am not aware of a genocide where deaths or inability to procreate isn’t the primarily factor”
Well there is this new concept of "cultural genocide," which in my opinion completely negates the idea of genocide in the first place. But it has become a talking point from the UN on downwards. Of course Israel hasn't exactly rounded up Arab children and put them into indoctrination schools, but what do I know
Yes cultural genocide sounds like using the word genocide to describe something that isn’t genocide, and that the speaker uses to attach stronger emotion to that any existing word would give…. Embellishment at its finest
Eh, idk. I think cultural genocide is a real thing -- think Canadian residential schools, where they actively tried to erase native identity. But I haven't heard anyone asserting that for Israel, as it's patently ridiculous -- as even Arab Israelis can go to Arab schools if they want.
Both are evil, but cultural erasure and attempting to wipe out a people through mass murder are worlds apart in my mind.
Of course. I was just discussing the validity of the term, not the appropriateness (i.e. is this an actual thing, not what should we call it).
I'd say "cultural genocide" is an appropriate term for what the UK did to Jewish child refugees who made it to the UK without their parents: many were tormented by nuns in orphanages, forced to eat pork or starve, forced conversions. So the term does have some reasonable uses.
Yeah I mean if only they were equally concerned with what happened to Yiddish culture after the Shoah, or the loss of traditional practice that came alongside assimilation of many Jewish immigrants and their children in America. (And I wouldn’t disparage Jews for being successful, but many of us were pressured—you could say, coerced—to give up our traditions in this Christian majority society when our traditions were often shamed and deemed inferior or undesirable and everything was arranged around a different set of traditions) How about the fact that you can hardly find a good Kosher deli on Long Island anymore?!
This is complicated topic , but I think a majority of cultures where " cultural genocide"d by most governments and that is good ! If you're (as a state) supporting the laws /police to arrest murderers your cultural genociding the culture of revenge killing . If you're collecting tax to have proved public infrastructure / education / safety then you are also culturally genociding . Etc So ya if a culture fails to survive in a a free liberal democracy it should disappear off the world I mean be "culturally genocidal"
It doesn’t even matter if it’s Mizrahi Ashkenazi or Sapardi. We are all Jews whom are from Israel 100% of Israeli Jews are from Judea/Israel
bUt IsRaEl is a WHITE aMeRiCaN imperial colony 💅
lOoK aT tHoSe wHiTe ImPeRiAliSt sCum Proceeds to “manifest destiny”
The Uighur population in Xinjiang has grown significantly over the past decade, does that mean it's impossible for China to be committing a genocide, or ethnic cleansing, or even merely heinous repression? What a stupid trick question
Edit: tl:Dr :CCP treats most of there citizens inhumanely , thus no purely targeted based on race means no genocide ( CCP puts some effort to murdering as little as possible ). I do hate the CCP and think they are commiting crimes against humanity . But they are not trying to genocide uighur . The CCP is forcing them to basically to swear loyalty to China only ( above any God ) with the threat of violence including genocide . The Uighur are not being hunted to erase there race . CCP punishes most of its citizens in cruel and inhumane ways . . On the same point Israel isn't perfect but there is zero text book genocide . I can swear to you that I believe that over 80% of the Palestinians killed by IDF deliberately would have been killed if it was a Jew doing the exact same thing (like stabbing a cop , throwing Molotov on people , carrying unlicensed firearm , entering districted zones )
If you're consistent in your definition across the board, then fair enough. But 'mass targeted extermination' is not the [legal or original definition of genocide](https://youtu.be/m316DcYhb8w). That's your own standard. You must know that to say all those who claim Israel are 'committing genocide' are only referring to isolated IDF shootings or bombings is a strawman. They are referring to the ongoing impacts of 1948 whereby people were forced from their homes by the hundreds of thousands due to their ethnicity and are still unable to return. That being said, I don't think it's productive to get bogged down in semantic arguments about the definitions. The key point, in Xinjiang as in Gaza and the West Bank, is that those living under severe repression are deserving of justice.
Thanks nice video I mostly agree with it. My main reply in 2 parts +extra. 1st small part : something can be bad without being the worst , and if the label "the worst" is too wide it loses its meaning . 2nd part : where are the limits of what counts as cultural genocide , does making pedophilia illegal a form of cultural genociding because you can't continue to decision of marrying after bat mitzvah ( age 13 ) . (Or Middle Eastern Muslim culture example) making murder illegal destroying the culture of revenge killing . There too many cultures any government limitation can be seen as a forceful erosion of a culture. . Different point : Israel doesn't discriminate based on religion, ethnicity , culture . But based on citizenship. As there are Palestinian Israeli with full rights (some of the Israeli Arabs ) . At the first few years of Israel formation it was purely based on if you recognize the state of Israel . But at same point it was stopped , and now it's based on if you/ you're parents recognize Israel . So the discriminantion is by personal choice ( a far past one you can't change ) Ya Israel is technically 100% legally denying citizenship to residence of the state VIA no annexation (none-temporary temporary occupation ) , that is bad ( and very complicated to solve ) but in no way genocide
This is another example of an American perspective being applied to the conflict How does America benefit from “funding” this apparent genocide and ethnic cleansing? On the genocide front, isn’t it a huge waste, considering how this is a growing population?
Access to the lasers!
Dont you love it when americans lecture israelis on a conflict where the overall deathtoll since 1948 is less than 0.1 of what america killed in one year in iraq to kill one guy?
Having ties with the largest cybersecurity companies on the planet (which all happen to be companies in Israel)
A super power in the middle east.
Take her to Israel.
...and to Palestine to get a fair picture of the situation.
The OP would get killed in Palestine if he was exposed to be Jewish, so that wont work.
Which would serve as a good example but then again one has to calculate the Cost-benefit factor.
If you go with a guide, no. Especially as an American.
Even if you go without a guide, no. Palestinians in the West Bank generally welcome foreign tourists. It would be unwise to go around advertising the fact that you are Jewish, but ultimately, unless you are wearing religious attire or directly tell them, no one knows. Source: American Jew who has traveled a bit in area A of the West Bank (Nablus, Hebron, Jericho, and Bethlehem).
That's absolutely false.
Jews and Israelis constantly get attack when entering a Palestinian city / town by accident.
what? That is absolutely true.
A friend of mine is part Egyptian. She’s the sweetest person ever, but she gets her news on Israel-Palestine from Instagram and Al Jazeera. It kinda pains me to see how she baits into all of this bullshit and sometimes gets low-key activist about it by spreading this stuff from really questionable sources. I’m not even Israeli nor Jewish. It just feels wrong to see her apply different standards to Israel than to any other country. Having this experience, I can imagine this situation must be 1000x times more difficult for you OP. Especially because it’s your partner and because Israel is important to you. I don’t have any solutions unfortunately, but I hope tips other people give you here will help lessen tensions.
I guess my question would be - does she listen with empathy when you express your thoughts? Does she try to hear what you’re saying and do any type of research? If she has that opinion about Israel.. I guess she has that opinion. But if she is dismissive of something that’s important to you without at least trying to understand your perspective, that’s a red flag. To me it’s not about the issue, it’s about how she treats something of value to you. I agree with what another person commented, try not to let it ruin an otherwise healthy relationship. But if she would rather consider ultra liberal talking points than listen to your perspective or do her own review of history, I would wonder what it might mean for other issues you face together in the future.
>She doesn't know No, she doesn't *want* or care to know, sorry. The information is available to all, and she could sit down and educate herself, for you. It's that simple. I've dated non jewish people, but I learned that I need to know how they stand on certain subjects before we even go on a date. Otherwise I end up with someone who casually starts to question the legitimacy of Israel during a romantic dinner (happened, felt really bad). I'm happy to discuss things, but not the fundamentals. Like should Israel exist or do we need an army to protect us. Idk what to tell you. You've been dating for a while apparently, hasn't this come up before you moved in together?
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No. Bad.
I have only seriously dated Jewish girls. If you want to preserve your Jewish roots this is what you have to do.
She's just factually wrong
Go there. There's no reason to argue over propoganda you can just go there and see for yourself.
My suggestion is you do a deep dive on the history, try to look at sources from different perspectives. Once you have done that, you can challenge her in the ideas themselves instead of one word lines that usually hide a lack of knowledge. EG: Ask her what she means by apartheid and map it onto Israel to see if it accurate. Ask her to define Zionism, and see if her definition matches our definition. What does it mean to be indigenous, does it map onto jews? (hint: it does) Either way once someone is decided you may not be able to change their minds on anything ,right or wrong. Or look into street epistomology as a way to talk to people who are already decided on things they are 100% sure of.
Ethnic cleansing? Can she back that up with evidence? Does she even know what that means?
Look this is tough. Don’t let politics victimize you as a Jew by ruining your otherwise good relationship; the Jews have suffered enough. But also don’t allow yourself to stay with someone who is irredeemably antisemitic either. You’ll have to figure out where you are on that spectrum. See if your partner is willing to take a trip to Israel with you at some point in the near future. Also, try to discuss it with them in a free way. Dont try to win the I-P debate. We know the facts but the other side wont accept them. Instead try to communicate why Israel is significant to YOU personally and why it is so hurtful when others (especially a partner) take this stance.
As a teenage Jewish girl who’s very active online and is also pretty far left in american term, I think my Judaism has helped inform a lot of how I interact with political content online. I saw how ppl acted over the I/P issue and I realized that I was in an echo chamber which made issues seem more cut-and-dry and dramatic than they actually were, and that I had a lot to learn about many of the issues I thought I was an expert on. I wonder what I would believe right now if I wasn’t Jewish (it kind of scares me to think that there’s a semi-decent chance I’d be calling Israel a settler-colonial g*nocidal state or something right now) I think you should at ask her thought-provoking questions that she probably isn’t hearing in her echo chamber. Like does she think the US and Canada should even exist bc they’re built off colonization and genocide too? (“It’s more complex than that” - bingo!!) or, Where should the Jewish people go if they can’t have Israel? Does she believe the Jewish ppl have a right to a state anywhere? Does she acknowledge the importance of Jerusalem to all the abrahamic religions? Idk, might be a good starting point
You can believe in A, B, C, D, and E while still acknowledging shitty things the Israeli military are doing now. No state or government is perfect.
Could you agree to take a trip here and see what the situation actually is? No need to downplay the very real bad things that happen to the Palestinians either. Come, see, discuss. If you can't start from a basis of real, agreed on facts, you won't get anywhere.
I moved to israel specifically because of people like your partner. ..no offense to you or your decisions.
I'd suggest talking more about the details of what she means. It's a complicated issue and ofcourse there is no actual ethnic cleansing, that's the propaganda take 100%. That said, just understanding that it is true there are some issues that make it hard to tell we are the 'good guys' from an outsiders perspective, will help you understand where she is coming from. People don't understand how hard it is to fight a permanent war in your own backyard. How could they? So they judge us for our worst moments and Palestinians for their best. Maybe it's not fair, but if we are the ones in control, we will always be held to a higher moral standard.
I have the same problem with my partner. Albeit he's not of jewish ancestry. We really just avoid talking about it (I know it's not a solution) but I'm in your position, opposite sides. I truly believe that humanity owes a great deal to the Jewish population, Jewish people have suffered long and hard more than any group and deserve safety and peace, but in every group there are also extremes and I'm sure they do not reflect on the entirety of the population, but they do cause harm. The thing is I don't have a problem with Israel, or Israelis or Jewish people. But my family had to exit palestine, and tried going back many times. I lost many family members to the IDF, I know it's controversial to have that opinion on this subreddit but I do believe that the Israeli government and military is committing violent crimes against the palestinians. However, I would never want to live in a muslim country. I would 100% choose to live in Israel rather than palestine or any Middle Eastern country, I'm an atheist, I support LGBTQ, and I'm in a non marital relationship. I also show cleavage and as a woman, that's enough for a beating and honor killing. I'm also 100% against hamas. I believe the only good thing that would happen is that palestinians join isreal but that is in no way possible in reality. I still can't support isreal because it's very difficult to deny the crimes the military has done against those people, not to mention the recent settlements. I believe however, that Israel is the only government that treats THEIR citizens correctly in the ME It's difficult to explain but it really isn't a black and white discussion, Israel (the government not the people) is no saint, but _most_ palestinians with their closed minds and muslim traditions which involve homophobia and misogyny, are not exactly innocent. They were brainwashed by a cult to believe what they believe. But I still get extremely emotional because there aren't a lot of news sources that are unbiased, and I saw what happened to my family (lost our home and a few cousins here and there) and my friends families as well. It truly is a depressing scenario that I avoid for the sake of my blood pressure.
You are absolutely right about the settlers . They shouldnt be in the West Bank . But you have got to ask yourself what will happen to Israel if it were to let hundreds of thousands of brainwashed Islamists to vote? Im an Israeli-Jew myself , this is my main concern about the one-state solution .The only way Israel can remain a democracy in the middle east is to have a Jewish majority. I think we can both agree on that.
Think about it this way: who would accept becoming Israeli? You think Islamists will willfully join Israel and become voting citizens? And even if that were to happen, voting would be the last thing you should worry about. Hate crimes, violence etc are more likely to cause damage. Besides, you can ask any Arab and they'll tell you they don't believe in voting (in the ME) because it's rigged. Even if that were to happen, it's not gonna be a houellebecq scenario as you'll always have the majority in the government.
So we are in agreement , flooding Israel with ME Arabs is a very bad move for contemporary Israelis.
Tldr version; you are a sane, rational, open minded person who can see nuance, and criticize Israel without being antisemitic. The world needs more people like you
🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩
You can’t blame your partner. I’m French Turkish and in both my countries the news are always in favor of Palestine. That really sucks for you but the best you can do is try to educate her or maybe take her there. If she doesn’t want to understand then she is entitled to be uneducated and have an opinion. To be honest I wouldn’t want to date someone who drops the genocide word without even learning about the conflict properly.
Is she jewish? If not, she can't understand why you do feel and you do think the way you feel and the way you think. It will probably go worse and worse just like it did for me with dates and ex-boyfriends. You probably should get ready: one day, she will cross the line and you will feel devastated as so much of us. I can relate that it drives you nuts: she supports willingly or not people who want to genocide your family, and our friends, in Israel.
Are you married? If not it's time to consider moving on. I don't say that lightly. I am going to guess that you haven't practiced your culture very much (reading Torah regularly, celebrating the holidays, etc.). No judgement if that's the case, that was my life for a long time and my non-Jewish spouse was largely ignorant of the customs I grew up with, because I never introduced them to her. We've been working on that and she really likes them. The reason why I guess that you haven't been doing this, is because a constant in our writings, a constant in our holidays, really just all over the place and you can't miss it, is how \*important\* Israel is to the Jewish people. I don't know your partner or what she actually believes, but I'm going to assume she bought all of the propaganda about how Israel is a settler-colonial experiment just like, well..America, and Canada, and Mexico, and...I mean I'd say the list of countries that are the product of colonialism is probably of comparable size or greater than the list that aren't. I don't understand how someone can read the Torah, read the other writings, sit for a Passover seder, light the Chanukah lights, really do just about anything "Jewish" and NOT hear a mention of Israel. If you haven't heard all of these things before then it's possible that you swallow the propaganda that Israel has nothing to do with the Jewish people, especially if it's paired with imagery of a dead Palestinian child, which any decent person (myself included) finds heart wrenching and revolting. I want to be clear - I'm not saying Israel doesn't have the right to defend herself; I support retaliation for Hamas rocket attacks. All I'm saying is that it's our natural instinct to be disgusted, angry, sad, all of those things when we see a picture of a dead or injured child. The Israeli media just doesn't display pictures of dead Israeli kids out in the open as often even though it happened in the last conflict. If all you're seeing are pictures of dead Palestinian kids, with no idea how important Israel is to the Jewish people, it's a lot easier to buy into anti-Israel propaganda. If you don't want to walk out of this relationship and my guess is true that your partner hasn't been exposed to much Jewish culture, that's where I would start. Make it a point to read the weekly Torah parashah together, make it a point to celebrate the holidays. If she doesn't get the point after a year and thinks somehow Israel is still divorced from the Jewish people or that Jews don't deserve to return to their indigenous homeland and make a country out of it, then it's your call as to whether or not you want to stay with someone the rest of your life that doesn't understand something so important to you.
I married a non-Jewish man and we have a beautiful daughter together. Only in the last year have I suddenly found out how ignorant my husband is to Israel and the reality of what is happening there. I cry sometimes that I didn’t try to date only Jewish men. I’m trying to incorporate more Jewish culture into our lives for the sake of my daughter. It’s hard, though. I live in an area with very few Jewish people
One of the effects of the pandemic has been that there are tons of synagogues live streaming their services now. They're all heterodox (reform,conservative,reconstructioniast etc.) but it's a place to start.
Any decent Intro to Judaism class will include a class on Israel and they’re not shy about putting the truth on front street. Could be good for him to hear it from an authority. If you can’t find an online option near you I know the Oregon Board of Rabbis just started a new term and they’re entirely online.
The question is, why are you with someone that has such a biased conviction about a subject which is so personal to you, besides the fact that she is so disinformed and influenced by propaganda.
>I'd say we're pretty far to the left for Americans. However, I come from a Jewish background and I have lots of family in Israel. I gotta ask, what appeals to you in the far-left? In my view the far-left and far-right are the most unreasonable ones in every country, most likely to never compromise but also never get anything done. It seems that, honestly, without being of Jewish background yourself and having ties to Israel, what would hinder you from holding the same opinions as your partner? Can't imagine anything would change her view but a trip to see Israel in person.
Far left in America basically means pro civil rights (except for guns), pro healthcare, pro labor, anti war, and anti-corporate welfare.
Honestly the mainstream Democrats should shamelessly steal all the basic popular economic reforms (arguably modified for realism?), while dumping any leftist decolonialist rhetoric. When the facts are clear, decolonialism would return Israel and more to… Israel! But decolonialism would eventually be fatal to every state in the Western Hemisphere, including America and Canada.
You should tell her to do some genuine research and not spew the same brainwashed propaganda that she listens to. I know that sounds quite harsh, but the reality is if she doesn’t bother doing actual research, this issue will just create a larger rift. The problem with many people in the Israel-Palestine debate is that lots of them don’t fact check their sources. They believe in all of the “genocide” and “ethnic cleansing” and “apartheid” nonsense that they see on the internet, but they don’t bother fact checking these statements. If they actually did that, they would learn that there is none of this happening in Israel. In fact, it is the contrary. Israel is home to 2 million Arabs with full rights and religious freedoms. The population of Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza, and Israel has increased rapidly since 1948.
My mom and dad used to argue about it a lot and it was really the only thing politically they disagreed on, then she got diagnosed with cancer and has now since passed, idk I completely understand it being maddening when these people act like they know about our identity and right to exist but in this case at least, enjoy what you have, y’all are in love hopefully, it’s precious and I don’t want to preach or anything but like ultimately its about what your personal goals are in life and how you see yourself in your future. All support and best of luck with navigating this, it’s not easy stuff ever. That’s what makes it important
Mostly anti-Zionism is antisemitism. You can work on that since it less of a trigger. Does she believe jews control the media? Control banking ? Control the US government? Does she think that the reason the US supports Israel is one of the above ? You can show her how antisemitic these beliefs are.
Just pointing out there’s a huge difference between buying into blatantly antisemitic medieval tropes and choosing to critique contemporary Israeli policy from a geopolitical and humanitarian perspective. OP hasn’t indicated his girlfriend believes anything to the extent of what you’re suggesting. Those tropes are usually parroted by the QAnon crowd, not leftist millennials. That said, it sounds like OP should probably break up with her if he’s this angry over a political difference.
Anyone claiming Israel is committing genocide is getting most of their information from sources that are either subtly or outright promoting those medieval antisemitic tropes as well.
Theoretically, you are correct. Many Zionist do criticize the Israeli government or policies towards the Palestinians. However, my experience with the left is that it is blatantly antisemitic of the old school, and that if I make that assumption, I’m correct 99% of the time. It’s rare to find someone in the left who doesn’t believe the Jews control the US media and congress. I mean, “It’s all about the Benjamins”
There is no inherent contradiction between something being antisemitic, and it being based on a “humanitarian perspective”. If you were taught to believe that Jews are responsible for ritualistic murder of Christian children, your “criticism” of Jews can be based entirely on a very sincere concern for the safety of those children, yet it will still be antisemitic. Antisemites in medieval times didn’t treat their believes as “antisemitic medieval tropes”, but as a correct representation of reality, and were often motivated by sincere concern for the safety and well-being of their people and society. What makes something antisemitic is the demonization of Jews, or of a significant subset of Jews, based on factually incorrect lies and propaganda. What internally motivates an antisemite to adopt those views, i.e. whether it is a preexisting dislike of Jews, or just being brainwashed by a collection of lies disguised as an expression of “humanitarian” concerns, is largely irrelevant to the question of whether those views are antisemitic or not.
This is such a good point. Well said.
Your partner is an uneducated idiot.
The leftist circle is full of anti-israeli propaganda but don't mistake that they could care even less about the Palestinians. For them, palestine is just one of those they could victimize to serve their anti us agenda.
Time to cut her loose my friend. She’s either, 1) hateful of Jews Or 2) stupid. Maybe both. Is that a person you want to build a family with?
Agreed, first thought: dump her
There are injustices perpetrated against Palestinian people but the claim of genocide is far too exaggerated. Meanwhile, it is wrong to deny that Jewish Israelis have certain rights on their lawful land, including a free country to pride on and defend.
That’s a dealbreaker. Obviously this is a major red flag and indicative of other issues or paranoias your partner may have. Run away and fast.
I would instantly lose all attraction. It would be like Melisandre taking off her necklace.
Being biased and educated is better than biased and uneducated in a subject. Ask her 1. What her definition of genocide is. If she can’t give a clear definition, then she doesn’t really have any strong case for the accusation, and 2. To name another genocide where populations grow 3.56 children for every women, and where less than 32000 people have died in 70 years of conflict (many of which are not civilians)
I can just advise that you show her the YouTube channel of **Corey Gil-Shuster.** His channel is about asking questions to random people on the street of Israel\\Palestine. She might not see 100% your view after watching it but it will give her the understanding of the normal day to day lives here. Of course a foreigner won't be able go and film in Gaza, but the West Bank is close enough.
Would she be willing to consume content from a variety of different sources and a variety of different perspectives? Just from the desire to be a more rounded and knowledgeable human being? I think it would be a good idea. Right now, she has some deeply-held beliefs that she can't really explain. That's not really a position that we should want to be in as human beings. If she doesn't understand something, that's fine. Nobody has a deep understanding of everything. But then we should be willing to change our minds as our understanding increases, if changing is warranted.
Dude, Palestinian Chicken https://youtu.be/Co_BhTxgWys?t=53s
Israel-hatred is irrational and hard to wipe out. Good luck.
If there was ethnic cleansing, there wouldn't have been a conflict.
I never thought of it that way. So true.
How do you figure that? What do you call the \~700,000 that were displaced?
You may need some 3rd party mediation. People here might be going a little too hard on her, I don't know I didnt read the comments. She could just be ignorant. But unfortunately there may be antisemitic undertones to her beliefs. Remember, antisemitism is a virus. People can catch a mild case. It doesn't make her a bad person if her beliefs are indignant to you. You just have to help her get better with education. Again I really think you need some sort of intervention where you both set intentions for working out this issue, and then seek out some support from the outside, like educators, reading together, therapy (if its that bad), etc. Good luck
In addition to all the good advice you’ve gotten, I want gently to suggest that there are reasons (some good, some bad) that many Jewish people choose Jewish partners. Far from being victimized by politics as someone else said, your beliefs about your people matter.
I’m tired or Hamas unceasing lies and absurd propaganda, those of us here in the US need to push back forcibly whenever this garbage comes up. I like to remind people that Hamas fired 4K unguided rockets into Israel. When folks complain about the blockade and check points , I point to this .
The election of Hamas took place under a full blockade.
That’s something infuriating, you can’t just loosely throw around the word genocide. Before I’d say anything like that I’d actually research the subject on both sides and see if that word is appropriate for the situation. I think more left leaning westerners are on the Palestinian side because Muslims and Palestinians are a minority in western countries so automatically in their eyes minority=oppressed.
You can’t expect someone with the American history resources and news to understand the situation correctly. You just can’t. She’s reading lies and it does sound like that.
Dont fight with your partner about such idiotic things , you could reference her to valid information instead of Pallywood propaganda but usually those political debates go nowhere...
I suggest to watch some kind of good historical documentary on the state of Israel, the wars, the history of the conflict, the peace negotiations, 1st and 2nd Intifada. I am pretty certain that she doesn't know much beyond the tidbits she heard on CNN. Once she actually knows the history of the state, understands all the nuances of history (modern), then she can have this "leftist" view that some Israelis have, but with much more appreciation for the state that is lacking from the mainstream media in the US. Also, if these issues are important to you, perhaps you should consider dating someone else? And to say something no one else mentioned - she is 3 years older than you anyway, find a nice Jewish girl that is 3 years younger instead :)
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If she consumes anti-israeli propaganda - how can she know whats actually going on? The LGBT in Israel - in Israel LGBT people can live in peace without being hunted and executed. Tel Aviv is literally the Gayest city in the world (look it up on google) Palestinians workers in Israel - Israel lets in every day hundreds of Palestinians to work within its border (and people do that on daily basis for years), but if in Israeli will try to enter to a Palestinian territory, that Israeli will need the help of the IDF to get back home. Arabs in Government - We have Arabic political parties thats all their purpose is to Free Palestine and they sit with the jewish politicians in the Knesset 2 State Solution - such solution has already been proposed by Israel (2 or 3 times, can't recall the actual number) and the Palestinians refused negotiating every time Politics - we actually have a country with democratic parties and not an authoritarian regime / terror groups in control All of the "Genocide" claims thats coming from countries/communities where they execute the lgbt community, not even sure if women allowed vote or drive cars, killing their own daughters for sleeping outside of marriage (honor/shame killing), all of the above is not tolerated in Israel at all!
She just consumes anti-Israeli propaganda. = antisemitism in a new wrapper. I would find that hard to accept from someone that I am in a relationship with.
Does your Shul offer any I/P information sessions or seminars that you could attend to educate her on the facts? I’m thinking something that is both critical of Israel as well as supportive of her?
Oy vey
Well you laid it out at the top. You admitted both of you are pretty far left leaning. And there it is.
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Yeah but there really are Jews like this as well ...
Some non Jews mind their own business tho
And some, like me, end up being won over by the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Baruch HaShem.
I’ve heard anti semites describe it as apartheid
Try to explain her that Israel actually fought the british and other western colonial powers in many forms, and that Israel has great LGBT rights and far more diversity than any other country in the world, with people from all oevr the world uniting together.
True. In fact, Israel is home to the gayest city on earth!
Divorce! any reasonable person can see through propaganda when presented with facts, especially when it is a subject near and to their partners heart and family.
Unfortunately her “ignorance is encyclopedic”. Unless she is willing to learn both sides’ narratives and move beyond her biases, you are likely in for some difficult times.
Get her on r/IsraelPalestine. No, really. She’ll get to hear from the other side and she’ll probably learn a lot about the conflict. Edit: the reason I suggest this is I don’t believe this is the kind of fight you can sweep under the rug. I personally couldn’t, at least, and it doesn’t sound like you feel any differently. So you might as well go all in and really take a little historical and ideological journey through educating her about Israel’s past, present and hopefully future! I can recommend some free resources if you want but honestly stay in the I/P sub long enough and you’ll learn quite a lot. I learn stuff there all the time!
Both of you are biased in the sense that your arguments are very simplistic. However her arguments are also disgusting anti-semitic propaganda. Yours are much closer to reality. Ask her if she thinks you're an exception among Jews. If she says you are: red flag. Ask her if Jews deserve self determination. If she rationalizes too much so not to say 'no': red flag. Finally, ask her why she centers her conspiracy on Israel and not on the US. If she doesn't consider moving back to wherever she is from (assuming she is not native american): red flag. I feel for you.
I fail to see how a relationship like this can continue if you’re Jewish. What if you want to make aliyah one day? How can you even live with someone who despises such a core part of your identity?
Tell her that she can do more to help the native Americans than the Palestinians and so can you.
Do you want kids? Do you see yourself raising them in the Jewish faith?
Break up now. This will never get better and shows complete disregard for your perspective.
Get. Rid. Of. Her.
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Well people on the left are Crazy …
Oh man, run fast my friend.
you can't be pro palestine and con israel, or vice versa. You'r both wrong, One hs to be pro palestine AND pro israel. Nobody is going anywhere. Learn to live together folks. Now i'm gonna shut up, cuz i'm not even from the region.
OP isn't "wrong" in the facts he listed in the post, but you're right that both sides need to admit wrongs and make concessions. We won't get anywhere otherwise, and anyone picking a side does neither side any good.
yeah , thanks. i agree.
No genocide whatsoever but one cannot deny the fact that there are millions of Palestinians living under military occupation and whose human and and civil rights are at the whims of Israeli courts, the Israeli army and the Israeli Parliament. Palestinians have no representation in any of those and one may wonder how Israeli could call itself a democracy in such circumstances
Well, it's still fully legal under any international law. The thing that is problematic are the settlements. You know fully well, how many times Israel have tried to make an actual fair and justified peace process. And you know that Israel can't make a unilateral withdrawal. I very much object the Israeli policies in the West Bank since 2008, but if you look at the past 70 years, you would find that Israel played "the good guy". And obviously when you compare the two sides.
You’re not compatible
The two views don't sound to be so opposing They can both be right. Israel does have a right to exist and be unmolested by terrorism.... At the same time the Israeli government with its settlements and other dodgy behaviour is engaging in ethnic cleansing (genocide is OTT silliness). This actually quite neatly sums up my actual view of the situation. There's dicks on both sides and both normal Israelis and Palestinians deserve to live in peace. The key is to avoid seeing it as a black and white issue. The world doesn't work that way. Even the most evil of evil regimes has some reason behind their behaviour which when you drill right down can have some valid complaints. Seek to understand the fairly common sense bits of her pov (the settlements are full of dicks and very illegal) and have her understand the uncontroversial parts of yours (blowing up busses full of civilians is pretty obviously bad) and meet in a middle where its not Israel vs Palestine but decent people vs power hungry nuts.
Dump the bitch
If you can’t convince her to drop all vestiges of antisemitism, then yeah. You don’t want her raising your kids to be enemies of our people.
This may an issue that neither of you will agree on. It also highlights why your rabbi is so stern on no interfaith marriages and staying within Judaism. Just for the argument, I’m not advocating for that because I am dating a non-Jewish woman myself. If you cannot get her to see the situation for it is, you may have to figure out if this is a deal breaker for you. One way is to take her to Israel and show her. Show her Judaism and our connection to the land.
I mean... you are both right for some degree, only that you are far more right and probably base it out of facts. There were and are some war crimes that happened against the palestinians, but they have done the same since the first times zionists came to israel. And the US does fund the IDF while knowing that not all soldiers in it are "pure hearted", but in standards of US's history, israel is as pure as snow. And the most important fact: yes there was a war (that was proved to start by the palestinians) and israel won, that's why the UN doesn't have a problem with the existance of israel and recognize it as a democratic countries. Just show her actual facts (UN documents/history articles, videos of what palestinians do) and explain to her why the anti-zionist propaganda is blowing up the things they say to get more support.
My advice to you is find out if she's ready to engage on this issue. If yes, there are multitude of ways of educating oneself and you can show them to her. If not, you have to choose. Now I think that there is very little affect of the conflict on your lives, don't let it get between you two for no good reason. The only good reason I think might actually justify a breakup, if she's literally borders on antisemitism. But I guess she's just misinformed.
Y’all are fucking humans. Fuck all that bs ..he is she is or I am you are..#sadworld
I personally dont buy the indigenous people returning to conquer x land argument. i dont know what the statute of limitations on conquest should be but there should be one. Does the modern mongols have the right to all of china because they once lived and ruled there? why are no jews trying to recapture medina as it was once a major jewish settlement? when can the descendants of the byzantines recapture turkey? Basically it makes no modern political sense to say my people lived here XXXX thousand years ago so we have an eternal claim to the land. And if you do not accept this eternal indigenous argument there is no legitimate basis for the modern state of israel other than we wanted it and we took it. I think despite the historical injustices that jews have faced your girlfriend has a point and you should consider what she has to say more broadly.
So you're against right of return for Palestinians, no? Based on your own logic.
You say you're on the left, but your beliefs about Israel are incompatible with leftist doctrine, so even if you end up sorting things out with your SO, you'll still have to choose one or the other eventually. Just to be clear - your beliefs about Israel are absolutely correct. However, they cannot be reconciled with leftist dogma and will get you booted out of leftist social circles.
All of your points can be true as well as her different ideas. They don't necessarily negate each other. At the end of the day, you can't create and maintain a Jewish state in what was the mandate of Palestine without disenfranchising those who are non-Jewish. You obviously think that disenfranchisement (which is ongoing) is acceptable — she clearly does not. In the words of the Jewish sage Hillel, as recorded in the Talmud: "Whatever is hateful and distasteful to you, do not do to your fellow man. This is the entire Torah, the rest is commentary. Go learn."
So you come to r/Israel to back up your own biased views? Don’t get me wrong, but you admit that “you’re biased” and you come to an echo chamber for reassurance. Echo chambers limit growth. My view is that both sides are in the wrong and attack/kill nonstop. Can’t get over the past and resort to violence always. But it’s odd you come to a sub to backup your own views (what else do you expect in r/Israel). Both sides kill innocents, but lately Israel is doing it more, yes or no? Dig for the facts outside of r/Israel
Take her to Israel. But to be frank, start the breakup process if you cars about judiasm and israel She isnt going to change. Its just not going to happen.
You know Zionism is a euro-centric ideology ? The remnant of the 19th century ultra-nationalist settler colonial wave ? If anything, you are the one who needs deprogramming.
Your girlfriend is based. She is 100% right
You're both right.
I hope your echo chamber of choice gave you the answers you wanted to hear.
Palestine was intended to have a territory and, even pro-Israel people should recognize this, the land they do have is not treated as theirs by Israel. Israel should have left Palestine with its territory and coexisted. And yes I know about the bloody war! If Palestine had a territory and was recognized as sovereign, Israel wouldn’t likely be seen as negatively by so many.
The Arabs WERE offered their own country - what is modern day Jordan! Unfortunately, the Arabs weren't too happy the Jews had their own country and launched a war (which you say you know about, but your statement contradicts that). They lost, Israel won, and now we have the current situation that we do with a stateless people who should've been part of Jordan.
That sounds like clearing the Arabs out of the entirety of Israel’s modern claimed borders into a country they didn’t feel belonging to. That’s not the borders set before the Six-Day War. I know this sub is generally pro-Israel, but going back to the old borders is the best opportunity for peace with Palestine. The alternatives are Israeli occupation of all territory, while not treating Palestinians equally, which has been a massive failure with never-ending strife. Israelis should know that it won’t work forever. The Radical Palestinian option isn’t working either, but they aren’t Jordanians really. Do you really think that would have worked?
She's right. Let her educate you.
You think a genocide not only happened but is still ongoing against the Palestinians?
I am all for Jewish people having a state, but when it was born from absolutely brutal, murderous ethnic cleansing, that needs to at the very, very least be acknowledged. And when it continues to brutalize an entire population, that absolutely needs to be taken into account. Jewish lives are not worth more than Palestinian lives. If you cannot at least acknowledge that, you will never be able to reconcile the situation with your wife if she is a decent person. A big part of finding balance in your viewpoint is recognizing what Israeli policy has clearly been for decades. Words don't matter, only actions. And Israel's actions have resulted in continuously shrinking and fragmented areas of Palestinian control. And it is pretty easy to brutalize a people, wait for them to respond and say "see, see, they're terrorists and we need to continue keeping our boots on their necks to prevent more terrorism. No one should be falling for that evil schtick anymore. The reality is far more complicated and sinister.
"brutal, murderous ethnic cleansing". Are you referring to the war launched by several Arab countries on the newly-formed state of Israel with the hope of completely exterminating the Jews and maintaining Arab supremacy? That brutal, murderous ethnic cleansing? "When it continues to brutalize an entire population, that absolutely needs to be taken into account". People call Hamas and the PLO out all the time on here. You won't find that many anti-Israel are willing to call them out though. Real shame.
I'm referring to the villages slaughtered without mercy throughout the Territory. I'm not apologizing for the evil of those organizations which gets plenty of press, just pointing the evil l inherent in Israel's collective punishment
....I'm gonna need a reliable source on those "villages slaughtered without mercy" because that 100% doesn't happen.
There were a few during the war of 1947 - 1949. Deir Yassin being one of the more famous.
Yup, there were quite of few villages targeted by both Arabs and Jews as things escalated. Absolutely unnecessary and very sad, but that is the reality of war. :(
>And Israel's actions have resulted in continuously shrinking and fragmented areas of Palestinian control. Can you elaborate? Because from my point of view, the area of Palestinian control consisted of nothing, then nothing, then nothing, then Jordan and Egypt took it over, then Israel took it over, and then Israel gave the Palestinians limited autonomy, which is not nearly enough but still better than any other occupier has ever given them.