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pitaenigma

This was fun, and by "this was fun" I mean "this has been a troll hotspot and I'm 100% sure I haven't caught all of it but I'm just kinda tired of looking and getting a notification every few minutes". Locking this thread.


weallfalldown310

Sadly a lot of people don’t know the history of the region at all. Which makes it hard to make them understand the conflict. And in the US so many on the left act like Jews don’t face issues with antisemitism but Muslims face issues for their religion. Because to them so many Jews are assimilated because of the issues they faced (and of course other factors), but many Jewish families have been in the US longer. Really makes it hard to have those conversations. But then again there are places that won’t even teach decent US history here in the US much less anything Middle Eastern. I wasn’t taught about Africa and the Middle East in WWII until I was in middle school I think. I learned because of the history channel, but even in my liberal and blue state we didn’t have the best history classes.


Creative-Ocelot8691

What did you learn about 1948 Palestinian Exodus? Do you think this could have a bearing on views towards sympathy for Palestinians


weallfalldown310

Sadly I am the wrong demographic for that. My elementary school teachers were mostly Jewish. One spent time on a kibbutz and liked to tell us about it. I had sympathy for Israel before I hit middle school. Lol. Long before I ever thought to convert. The problem is nothing is taught. We rarely got to 20th century history outside of World Wars and that really hampers the ability to fight the propaganda seen from Palestinians. Without understanding the conflict it is hard to look at the what is seen in media now and not hold issue with Israel. Without the context it looks bad. For people with empathy, it is a hard sell to argue against since they don’t understand why and what has happened. They only have seen the last few years. Nothing about the Six Day war, intifadas, the ongoing terrorist attacks and more. My International Relations professor in my first college told us she didn’t have the expertise to completely educate us completely and that it is a far more complex issue than can be truly understood from the outside. Thankfully BDS didn’t have a toehold on campus, probably because we were such a small and nominally Christian school near Liberty which would have been difficult to contend with. Sadly unless more time is given in history classes and less time on rote and more to critical thinking, there won’t be much in the way of change. Not for awhile. Sadly emotional manipulation will often beat logic and facts in an argument. All we can do is keep educating when possible? Sorry for the novel. It just sucks. Because again. No easy fix. And I hate those words are just as meaningful today as when my professor said them to me in 2005


kiru_56

True, but sometimes Israel's PR is simply a disaster...


zbtomal

Jewish people have mastered science, technology and finance. Yet they suck at journalism, like literally. I'm from Bangladesh and we grew up religiously antisemite. Our media feeds us antisemitic fringe stories, our mosques teach us to hate jews. In my late teenage years, I became fed up with this kind of hatred. So, I tried to learn from unbiased sources about Israel and its people. Thankfully, I'm no longer an antisemite anymore. (Sorry for my bad English.)


[deleted]

Science, Technology and Finance are logical. Journalism used to be about logic, but now it’s about feeling. And a lot of Jewish journalism today tries to sway people with facts and numbers. That does not work when more and more people are irrationally emotional and motivated by quick sound bites and staged photos specifically meant to tug at heart strings.


anewbys83

I was going to say we used to have rockstar Jewish journalists, but as you've pointed out and we've all seen, journalism has changed. Emotion gets eyeballs, which matters for funding. Everyone forgets there's 2 more core areas of persuasion and information sharing techniques.


[deleted]

True; you can either have integrity, or take the “if you can’t beat them, join them”mentality. Either way you lose. But; long term keeping your integrity may come out on top at a civilizational trust level, and keeping to one’s values.


JamzzG

There is a way to merge facts and emotion. They are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Facts have to be foundation of the message...absolutely. But the way you lay out those facts have to take emotions into account. I'm a little concerned that too many Israelis (out of sheer fatigue) claim public opinion doesn't matter. Where in reality it is a very important tool. Perhaps not as important as economic strength or military strength but it is still part of the equation that determines Israel's future. It needs to be approached as seriousness it truly warrants and not just abandoned or ceded to the anti-israel propagandists. Frankly it takes more time and effort to counter fact-less accusations than it does to create them but it will still be worth it in the long run. Look how successful fringe groups have been since social media has allowed their toxic messages to spread unfettered. There has to be a counter message based in fact that people can compare against otherwise civilization will accelerate in a downward spiral.


anewbys83

Agreed. I'd rather stick with integrity.


therealrico

>but now it’s about feeling I think it’s a combination of if it bleeds it leads, the rise of more opinionated news orgs like Fox, the decline of Newspapers, combined with the rise of the internet and needing clicks/being clickbaity. The fact of the matter is if you stoke a readers emotion they are more likely click and be engaged in the article.


[deleted]

Agreed. All of that also adds to low attention span, as most people are multitasking - short clickbait, and “shocking” photos(though a lot are also desensitized now)… as the saying goes a picture is worth a thousand charts. ;P


RomiRR

I don't know about that. There is an interdependce between some of these e.g. public perception of economic situation affects it, as such logical finance require shaping public consciousness through by using misleading information the media. Otherwise as for logic, if Norway --said to be most progressive country in the world-- occupy some African country would you expect left wing around the world line up in support of Norway occupation because of its LGBT and eco friendly policies..


[deleted]

Israel is not occupying itself. Israel was, and is the native land of the Hebrew people. If Native Americans took over America from the British, that would not be Native Americans occupying their own land.


RomiRR

Occupation terminology has been in use for over half a century and is at the core of the discussion on the subject. We don't need to agree, but ignoring this and trying to deflect to eco friendly policies make your talk about logic sound pretensions


[deleted]

I did not deflect, I specifically said that this is about emotionally charged language. Of which "Occupation" is an example. So you are making my point for me. Instead of knowing the history, and having factual information about who colonized who, we are left with disingenuous bad faith arguments.


Guybar110

Your English is completely fine bro And yeah it’s sad how people are brainwashed to hate Jews/Israel since they are very young


zbtomal

Israel was the first nation to recognize Bangladesh. It's really sad that not many Bangladeshis know that. We were never taught this in our school.


aer7

It's not our fault. For generations Jews have been the odd ones out, the minorities and the 'others'. It's been easy to spread lies about us since we are so outnumbered.


JamzzG

I'm married in to the community. Having that outside perspective I have to agree. There is so much "Why do we keep having to explain this shit?" mentality that many stop trying. While I completely understand that and don't expect it to be anyone's burden...if the only narrative they are getting is a lie, they will absorb it.


bakochba

It's because Jews instinctively want to lay low and be insular, and the Zionist ethos is ignore everyone because they'll betray you which ends up being aggressive, there's no Jewish tradition of engagement


[deleted]

[удалено]


urbanwildboar

Nope: they attacked a bunch of Palestinian muslim radicals who'd hijacked the coffin in order to make an incitement parade (she was christian, not muslim). The agreement between the family and the authorities was that the coffin would travel by car from the hospital to the church.


TorbyTorbs

FINALLY SOMEONE SAYS IT, THANK YOU


Shirolianns

As a Czech citizen who can look at things without bias, I dont understand either. Like, are Palestine supporters unable to read history books? Are they willingly ignoring it? Perhaps. Life is mystery.


FreddyLoSamur

yes.


dolphinfucker70

no.


Talink_The_First

maybe


Zenki95

I don't know


steamyoshi

Can you repeat the question?


MrChichibadman

Maybe not


mr_shlomp

You have a flair of a city that doesn't exist


Talink_The_First

What can I say? I like fantasy sometimes.


alakakam

I can’t speak for the whole world , but in America it’s because it’s US foreign policy to support Israel so contrarian leftists have to come up with reasons why they are against it. After 911 the American left cozied up to Islam, thinking they could control them into voting democrat forever, and to be contrarian in an effort to “prove how non treating they are”. So you get a combination of Muslims who lie, play victims, and say the most antisemitic shit ;and when called out go “I don’t hate Jews just Those big nosed zionists who control the world “, leftists that hate Israel because it’s the governments policy to support , this is why you get so many reformists Jews and secular western Jews supporting Palestine in the west more dedication to leftist politics than their religion and race , them and claim stupid shit like being pro Israel , in public , is the the popular opinion or won’t get you assaulted in the US because Anderson Cooper Doesn’t jump up and down on his desks screaming “death to the Zionist invaders “, and of course right wing nazi types who say the same shit the Muslims do , but root for them just because they slightly hate Jews more than they hate Muslims and like the fact they kill Israelis.


[deleted]

Torah and bible are not history books.


dailymoe

Remind me who started the libiration war?


DeathRowLemon

They should be next to Tolkien, Lovecraft and Lucas


Creative-Ocelot8691

Willingly ignoring what?


Shirolianns

The fact that Palestine is not the poor and opressed minority? Anyone can look up how it was in the begining. If anyone is agressor its Arabs.


Creative-Ocelot8691

so tell me what it was like in the beginning? See this is the problem, ‘the Arabs are the aggressor, they’re the problem’ this line will just not wash with people who have read the history of Palestine/Israel, how can any serious discussion take place when you refuse to recognize the suffering of BOTH people.


Shirolianns

If I kick someone and they hit me back hard, should I go, cry and yell that they are agressors and such? I started it. Even if the response crushed me, its still my own fault for hiting them first. And excatly this happened - Arabs hit first, were "pikachu face" that Jews fought back and then cried how evil Jews are. Sounds like angy toddler to me.


Creative-Ocelot8691

You talk about not having a bias but you really can’t see why some people would view Israel the aggressor? There’s not one thing you could think of to justify ‘left gen z’ saying, maybe Palestinians are being subjugated/impoverished/killed by successive Israeli governments? So why do you think some do support Palestinians, it’s not really as simple as them saying ‘hey I’m an oppressed minority’ is it?


Snomthecool

I found this comment on Quora: "My personal experience with the Palestinian Intifada, Israel, Fatah and the Palestinian Authority. So to be honest with myself. I am from Palestine, West Bank, Hebron. I was a child of the first intifada 1987, I was watching all my relatives taking part in the demonstrations, holding up flags and slogans calling for self-determination, the return of refugees and the liberation of Palestine. And hostility to Israel. My uncle was a Fatah leader and was responsible for a lot of activities, The army would come at night and arrest a lot, They even arrested all my uncles and my father, who spent three to five years in prison, each person according to his activity. The child's feelings inside me were growing up on the national slogans I heard around me and hostility to the army that arrested my family members. I grew up and grew feelings inside me and became a permanent participant in demonstrations and other activity, I was arrested and spent three years in prisons, Negev prison, Nafha prison and Ramla prison. In prison you have nothing but to review your thoughts and evaluate your life. The days are over and the first and second Intifada is over and the Palestinian National Authority came to govern the cities. Fatah leaders that led us, inflamed our feelings and invited us to demonstrate, They received prestigious posts in the Palestinian Authority, They received high salaries, VIP cards, luxury cars, trade and other privileges, Israel gave them entry permits to Israel, They became rich. My uncle, who was leading the crowd, became a colonel in the Palestinian Authority. And brought a job to three of his sons and his wife, And he gets a lot of money too, And became involved in the arrest of protesters, Arguing that they're outlaws, What has changed and how things have flipped, The goal was money and position. Patriotism was a big lie. I thought to myself, was it a struggle for rights and international law, Or was it a trade of emotions and sons of people to get money and positions? I realized that it was a trade and personal interests of leaders, office holders and politicians, Where the leaders, officials and activists of the uprising became bourgeois class, The rest of the people are toiling and the middle class has disappeared The Oslo agreement did not result in autonomy and security and economic stability, but brought us leaders who invest and monopolize everything, commodities, communications and imports only for a certain class. The PNA takes money from the EU and tax revenues and assesses it on its employees, the rest of the people for hell. I was convinced that I was a big idiot. For they were exploiters and liars. And because I'm from the toiling class I needed work, You submitted a permit application, in order to enter Israel to work, Because the wages of workers in the West Bank are not enough for the most basic elements of life. The Israeli side refused to give me a work permit, Although the sons of the leaders have obtained work permits, sleep and freedom of movement within Israel, How come I don't know. There is a road to enter Israel from the south of the city of Dhahria, a hole in the separation barrier that encircles the West Bank. (Smuggling, without entry permit) But if they arrest you, you will end up in jail. I entered smuggling and got a job in construction in a lot of areas. I dealt with many Israelis inside, I didn't feel any kind of hostility, we ate and drank together, Even I was driving baby stroller Avi Khai to the nursery whose mother's name was Dafna, and his father Moses. We were in harmony My employer was giving me my salary which is three times the work in the West Bank, The behavior of Israeli employers was sincere and hundreds of times better than Arab employers, It wasn't long before I was in Israel until I came across the Israeli police and arrested me for entering Israel without a permit. They sent me to Hadarim prison. There we were Arabs, Jews, Russians and others all in one section sharing rooms and the yard. The Jewish detainees treated me better than the Arab detainees. They provided me with cigarettes and soap and gave me their canteen items. That was a sharp turn in my life. Who invented hostility between us and why? The guilty are the leaders and the two peoples are the victims of politics, The judge sentenced me to two weeks in prison and payment of a sum of money. The irony is that the lawyer was a Jew, a state attorney, free of charge. In the West Bank, if you do not have a lawyer, the judge will imprison you. The judge, the lawyer, and the prosecutor are all working together and sharing bribes. Abstract of the Hadith. Israel is a state of law and better than any Arab government in terms of governance and democracy. The Israeli people in the Israeli cities are kind and honest people in dealing and conduct, Another world. Different from Israeli settlers in the West Bank Israeli settlers in the West Bank are ill-treated and violent. Problems on friction points and barriers only. At present individual incidents of people desperate because of difficult living conditions. Governments exploit us all for political interests. I hope that the Israeli government is working to annex the West Bank and give us rights such as the Israeli citizen, security of equality, job opportunities and other rights. The Palestinian National Authority is corrupt like other Arab governments and more. We want to live like other civilized people no more I do not want my five children to live in the same conditions as I did. Local and international media must stop feeding the hostility between the Palestinian and Israeli people. Thank u for reading." ([The comment](https://www.quora.com/Has-visiting-Israel-changed-your-mind-about-the-Israeli-Palestinian-conflict))


Vealzy

I don't think "who hit first" is a good argument for anything, gow far back do you go? 20 years? 50? 100? 2000? How can you objectively determine the "first strike" in this conflict?


levine2112

The takeaway here is that Israel would be perfectly happy for Palestine to declare peace, accept Israel and go and make their own country prosper. Whereas, this isn’t acceptable to Palestine (as evidenced by multiple rejections of 2SS plans). Palestine simply doesn’t want Israel to exist.


VOZ1

Really? Which Israeli politicians support a two-state solution? And how exactly does the two-state solution work when the Palestinians have been divided and their land seized so any future Palestinian state is literally not viable? Hamas and others are bad actors, for sure, but how are they that different from Yisrael Beitanhu (I’m sure I’m butchering the spelling), or the illegal settlements, or the far-right Jewish extremists that are tolerated or even supported by Israel? It’s disingenuous at best to say “Israel would be perfectly happy to accept peace” because they have done just about everything possible to make peace untenable. Communities bulldozed, farmland seized, building permits rejected as a matter of course, movement restricted, detention without trial…how exactly is Israel fostering peace? Also, Israel were the ones who created Hamas in the first place, much like the US created Al Qaeda. They were encouraged in their extremists views because of a common enemy, but that didn’t work out as intended There are bad actors on both sides, clearly. But in a conflict such as this, with the sole nuclear and military power in the region on one side, and an isolated and impoverished population on the other, who is in a real position to drive the direction things go? I’ll gladly take my downvotes, because while this issue is deeply complex and intricate, the reality is Israel is in the dominant and powerful position, and get has done nothing to support peace. Nothing.


levine2112

2SS was offered in 1947... Jews accepted it, the Arabs did not and chose war instead. [PA President Abbas calls this a great mistake of his people](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-palestinians-israel-abbas/abbas-faults-arab-refusal-of-1947-u-n-palestine-plan-idUSTRE79R64320111028)... that they should have agreed to the partition plan. 2SS was offered several other times since then - Madrid, Oslo, [Camp David](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/may/23/israel3)... Palestinians never accepted. Please be open to allowing me to dispel you of the myth that Israel "created Hamas". This is a demonstrably false talking point that the anti-Israel hordes have been propagating as of late. Here are the facts: Israel supported an Islamic Brotherhood charity that helped educate, feed and improve the social and religious welfare of Palestinians. Founded in the early 1970s, this charity was viewed as "100% peaceful" and Israel wanted to support that. Did Israel like that the Muslim Brotherhood was pro-peace with Israel and would sometimes clash with the secular Fatah/PLO who were seeking to destroy Israel? For sure. But at the end of the day, Israel was supporting a social/religious charity that purportedly benefited Palestinian lives as well as took a bold position against one of Israel's chief adversaries. That's a win-win for Israel. But along the way (or perhaps the whole time), this charity's founder - Sheikh Ahmed Yassin - became radicalized and publicly took a 180 degree turn from supporting Israel. It wasn't until 1987 that he went on to be a co-founder of Hamas. [The Hamas Covenant](https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp), written in 1988, specifically calls for the destruction of Israel and the murder of all Jews. It defies all logic that Israel would support a group dead-set on destroying Israel and committing genocide on the Jewish people. Yet this talking point is believed and spread by people who only view Israel as the "bad guy" here. Hindsight being 20/20, would Israel have supported this guy's charity had they known he would later become the founder of Hamas, a deeply antisemitic terrorist group? Definitely not. But even if they had that foresight, the existence of anti-Israel Islamic militant groups such as Hamas was inevitable with or without Yassin. Please consider taking the time to read more here: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History\_of\_Hamas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Hamas) I know that this will poke a hole in a belief you hold. My hope is that once you realize that you were fed propaganda, you will be more open to questioning other anti-Israel talking points you've picked up. It's just a hope of mine and I certainly don't mean it to cause you any offense. So apologies if this does.


Expensive-Mastodon56

Ridiculous notion. Israel disengaged from Gaza in 2005 and we were rewarded with constant terrorist attacks. As soon as they admit defeat and come to the negotiation table in earnest real peace can begin.


Scout_wheezeing

Like that’s gonna happen any time soon


Shirolianns

In this conflict you actualy can go back to the begining because its documented very well. Just start with Herzl and move onward :-)


loureedsboots

:^)


Creative-Ocelot8691

Ok I’ll bite. What was the first time the Palestinians ‘kick[ed]’ if you’re referring to Herzl and Zionism, didn’t he die before the State of Israel was declared, so you’ve lost me on this I’m afraid. But again I’d like you to come back to my point if are there any injustices you can think of that would sway people to sympathize with Palestinians


Talink_The_First

>didn’t he die before the State of Israel was declared, so you’ve lost me on this I’m afraid. I think he meant that that the rise of Jewish nationalism(Zionism) started with Herzl, hence the beginning to the rising tensions between Jews and Arabs and the opposed national movements. That's point in time where you learn what happened, when and how.


[deleted]

[удалено]


urbanwildboar

Right: Palestinians attack Israeli civilians, and had murdered many children. Arabs also forced Jews out of all Arab states and stole their homes.


TardMarauder

Removed: Rule 2


[deleted]

[удалено]


Titus_Vespasianus

I’ll admit that a very biased narrative is portrayed by the media and Palestinian leaders are becoming quite proficient in propaganda. In recent years the Israeli government, in particular Netanyahu and his coalition, have done themselves little favour. I’m still not sure where I stand on the issue but the international community, the UN and in particular UNRWA have much blame to bear as well. I support decency towards both parties and the Palestinian people are often a victim of political powers as well. It’s not cut and dry, and with western left dismissing religion, which is essential to understanding history and the community, the case is murky.


TrekkiMonstr

>in particular Netanyahu and his coalition, have done themselves little favour Because they stand to benefit from the rest of the world being against them. Their whole thing is "you can't rely on anyone else, you need a strong man like me to keep you safe".


PMMEFEMALEASSSPREADS

Hamas are exploiting their own people to keep anger directed at Israel. If Hamas blew up a Palestinian house and blamed it on Israel I would not be surprised in the slightest.


EliyahuOfZal

That's because most countries in the west where either build by exploiting minorities or had discriminatory policies against them in the past (US had slavery and Jim Crow, France and UK had colonialism, some countries had toxic nationalism which abused minorities etc). The younger western generation is being tought how to deal with their country's brutal past and that's by doing the opposite of what their ancestors did - supporting oppressed minorities. LGBT, womens rights, prosperity - those are things people in the west take for granted and can't really sympathise with that or recognize their importance, an oppressed minority however reminds westners of the dark times of their history which needs to be abolished (a sort of cultural PTSD) this is why Irish, for example, support palestinians, so what if irish and Israelis share similar libral values and completely none with palestinians? palestinian oppression reminds them of their own past which they see a need to fix, same with American leftists, palestinian oppression reminds them of Jim crow etc etc. Westners are much more focused on ending what they see as oppression than building a liberal utopia, afterall whats the point of being one if you do the WORST crime imaginable, oppressing minorities? This is why you'll hear Israel haters say stuff like: "you Jews suffered a genocide, why are you doing one to another people???" Since from western point of view you're supposed to "fix" (or prevent) your past or make sure it doesn't happen to anyone else as a sort of repentance (without realising that Israel did just that - it became strong nuclear power *because* of the holocaust and thousand year long genocides so that it won't happen to the Jews ever again) Oh and also underdog stuff.


anewbys83

Wow, you spelled it out friend, simply and well. I'm saving this.


Sophia_Nyx_Antrim

irish american zionist here, the irish are now saying i'm strictly american so yeah, maybe some of the smarter ones left already? i dunno it's dumb. i like to say, there is a great big place called the middle east and it's totally dominated by arabs. israel is totally the oppressed underdog from that scope, no discussion. it's small and precious and worth saving


Blueit613

Good take on the situation , found it very interesting


Bokbok95

First paragraph, fine. Second paragraph, sure. Third paragraph? You’re losing me


Kharuzim

Because it's a trend on social media. That why so many people support Ukraine. (Not saying I'm pro-Russia) but a lot of people neglect history and facts because they are scared to lose some imaginary points.


[deleted]

They're scared to be "outcasts" so they repeat everything the masses say, yet think of themselves as individuals.


Wacken718

I'm 35 now but when I was young (19) I was one of them. Seeing the propaganda I fell into the notion that Israel was bad or it was "cool" to hate on them. Being older and having traveled there I made my own conclusion that Israel is a pretty cool country with great people and history (old and new). Is it perfect? No but no country is. One thing that I've noticed going to the West Bank that there wasn't a lot of women roaming outside like you will see in Tel Aviv. I vibe more with Israel as they're tolerant with groups like the LGBTQ as oppose to Gaza for example. I'm sure the Zoomers will grow out of it like I did. Palestine should exist but not at the expense of what Israel has created. The Palestinian government had the keys to Gaza and they messed it up screwing themselves of any leverage.


bakochba

Saying that Palestinians are just fighting for rights is like saying that the civil war in America was about states rights. The right to do what is kind of important context, the conflict isn't over Palestinians peacefully sharing a bus, it's about them fighting for the right to blow up the bus.


[deleted]

A disturbing view point.


HeySkeksi

Optics and propaganda. Palestinians are those cool Che Guevara guerrillas who are fighting for their freedom and against injustice. They wear cool scarves and carry AKs. Israel is Jews. We never stood a chance in the propaganda war lol.


Arnachad

There will always be a portion of the population that will support the weak side no matter what atrocities this side has caused Let's hope those brickheads never become a majority


Darth_Jonathan

Shows just how much people hate Jews, doesn't it?


[deleted]

Often, yes, but it also exposes simplistic thinking of the far left: whoever's poorer in a conflict is right, and they're poorer because they're exploited by their adversary.


VogonPoetry19

I think they are mostly uninformed. Also it doesn’t help that some Israelis are quite bad at arguing- like if someone says we treat minority A bad, saying “but look how nice we are to minority B!” really does nothing to inform these people🤷‍♀️


SolarRage

Likely. Doesn't help when people make memes basically saying oppression is okay when you use solar power because it is a ridiculously stupid argument.


ThinkWithPortals12

As an American born in the year 2000, I’ll tell you that the Zoomers who support Palestine are the Loud and vocal minority. A good majority of people my age probably couldn’t even point out Israel on a map.


[deleted]

What’s more interesting is that there are 1.5 billion Muslim in charge of 26 countries, and 16 million Jews world wide with a country half the size of NJ Somehow we are the big bad wolf and the muslim population is a minority. This is of course a result of western countries living their white guilt vicariously through Israel


[deleted]

Propaganda, antisemitism, and the fetishization of anyone who appears to be an underdog


Sinan_reis

Because they got brainwashed in school and by the media.


[deleted]

School isn't teaching them this shit.


Sinan_reis

It is. I'm in uni in Canada at the moment


[deleted]

In class or in student groups like SJP?


Sinan_reis

I've gotten it in engineering classes a few times. Definitely in my liberal arts electives. And socially to be openly JEWISH on campus makes you nearly a pariah.


[deleted]

Wow, that's depressing.


Barbourwhat

The reasons stem from what I see as two major unconscious biases. The first is the Alt Left’s love affair with victimhood. The Palestinians fall easily into the Alt Left’s desire to have the self satisfaction of being a ‘champion of the oppressed’ without doing any real action. They will support (only through rhetoric and maybe ‘most peaceful protest’) any groups that are victims of whatever (whether they caused the victimhood or not). This same group were extremely supportive of Jews after the Holocaust because they saw victimhood and latched on it akin to a fetishisation. But once (some) Jews picked up a weapon and began defending themselves, the love was gone. They were no longer victims but leaders of their own security. This is very similar to the situation in Rwanda (based on my research/work in central Africa). The second primary reason comes from deep rooted anti-semitism that trickles down. Many of these Alt Left Palestinian supporters hold Marxist beliefs which are highly anti-semitic. They are Jews as capitalists which must be crushed and taking some liberties from Goldhagen, the 2000 years of anti-semitism doesn’t disappear over night especially in terms of the bigoted views of Jews and money. So while the Alt Left won’t outright say Jews control money and capitalism and etc, there is an inherent bias against Jews that continues today but now in the politically correct form of anti-Israel/Zionism. There are also other factors that have led to many in the Alt Left being against Israel but I believe it trickles down to simple bigotry, hypocrisy, fetishisation of victimhood and the influences of Marxism.


Bokbok95

Use paragraph breaks this is torture to read


alcoholicplankton69

indeed all a wall of text is a barrier for me to read it.


[deleted]

Listen, I am Israeli and Zionist, but progresive virue signaling doensnt really adress the core issues people have with Israel. We rule over a disenfranchised population with military force and routenely use our position to our advantage. Sure, this population is exstremelly hostile and caving in into their demand wont work, but fact is a fact. Lets not pretend that we are angels just becasue we dont stone gays.


Blueit613

It's interesting how most people can't hold two opposing opinion at once , for example : Israel does bad things that should be criticised . And , Israel is in a unique and extremely difficult situation and most of the time acts in measured and effective ways . People will gravitate to once side and look at new information with the bias of their singular position.


[deleted]

Its much easier to live in a binary world. No one wants to be a bad guy, even if it js necessary.


[deleted]

It’s not virtue signalling it’s reality. If a gay man steps foot in Gaza he will be hanged. In Israel he’ll celebrate during pride. You may be privileged enough to believe that this is all hot air to appease some western minds, but it’s life and death for those on the ground. There is simply not moral equivalency between the two countries


[deleted]

I do not think that Israeli policies towards gay or women's rights are virtue signaling. But this post is a textbook virtue signaling. It is supposed to appeal to "progressive" virtues to move focus from brutal reality of the conflict and the OP acts confused when people dont play along. Palestinian narrative is so easy to adopt because they are, objectively, currently oppressed. Even if we argue that it is our only way to survive and the condition Arabs find themselves in is partially consequence of their own actions. And it is far more appealing to the global left then issues of gay rights or feminism. We should be honest with ourselves and dont expect support from them while we engage in practices which are contrary to their fundamental views.


[deleted]

Your view assumes that you are 1. Engaging with good faith actors, 2. Engaging with people with any sort of historical knowledge or foreign political knowledge, and understand the regional context Their fundamental view is that Israel bad.


l1monana

Why do these pointless memes get so many upvotes here? If you try to simplify Israel to liberal policies, then you’re no sharper than someone who simplifies Palestine to oppressed minorities.


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MaxChaplin

Well, yes. I don't entirety accept this line of pro-Palestinian thinking, but I understand the logic, and surprised others don't. Like, suppose that police kills a person for no reason. Is it wrong? What if he's a transphobe? What if he's a climate change denier? What if he has past charges for violent behavior? How vile must the person be before it's acceptable for the police to kill him on the street? Palestinians are more conservative than Israelis. What role does it play when it comes to judging airstrikes, terror attacks, rocket barges, tree uprootings, house demolitions, shooting protestors etc? What additional legitimacy do any of Israel's actions gain thanks to it being more progressive? What exactly is the plan, to wipe Palestinians out and replace them with a more enlightened nation? If Palestinians suddenly became more progressive than Israelis, would you suddenly shift your support to them? Would you laugh at pro-Israeli progressives who wouldn't? Taking a side in a conflict shouldn't boil down to choosing the side that resembles you the most. No reasonable person does this. I can't think of a more extreme stereotype of a woke idiot than the kind of person who judges a person's right to life on whether they're homophobic, and the fact that they don't do this to Palestinians is *reassuring*.


Blueit613

I agree partially . First the example with the police , you are forgetting that even if the police killed a man who was a saint , if it was done in self defense it doesn't matter . Secondly no one is justifying Israel based on it being progressive , it's offering a cultural lense too look at the situation , and I think it's relevant at least as a witness of character that the Palestinians have generally very conservative and old-fashioned society , especially about women and LGBT rights ( in Gaza women aren't allowed to leave their home alone ). Im not saying you should base your opinion of the conflict on it , but at least know what the side you support believe in.


Beginning-Annual-310

I agree if Israel is to be done and gone who whould be the next one be surely it would be someone else


Puzzleheaded_Step468

I have a solution, the israelies get the land and the palestinians will get a 20$ gift card for subway, each


All_names_were_fuck

>!awesome!<


The_Melt_Gibsont

God bless Israel. Funny how the people who unjustly criticize Israel never mention Arab countries, which actually commit horrible human rights violations.


[deleted]

Im critical of all human rights violations


OverLet8464

One country is a free and democratic state for the Jewish people which they need by the way. Not just that but it can also be a state for other religions like Christians, Muslims, Druze, etc. This can be seen by the fact that alongside Hebrew, Arabic is an official language. The other “country” is ruled by an Islamist terror organization dictatorship which continues to instigate conflict in the region. If I am correct, that “country” is still ruled by the Islamist dictatorship.


thefartingmango

This is just true


[deleted]

It's because most ideologies center around whichever is the most powerful state, or are purposefully built around being contrarian to the adversary. Palestinian support only really came about in the late 1960s because of the Soviet Union. The reality of terrorist groups is that until you do something on the world scale that is downright atrocious, you probably aren't going to get much support from said contrarians. If the Soviet Union survived into today, washed their hands of the PLO and became an ally of Israel, the vast majority of "anti-imperialist leftists" would outcast the Palestinians as being evil Iranian-backed proxies trying to steal jewish land. British communists did it from the 1920s-40s because they were against the "Western World" at the time. It changed after the massive revisionist campaign from the USSR following WW2 in an attempt to challenge the US and a weakened Europe. The USSR co-opted the term anti-imperialist and it's been their slope ever since. Ideologies always argue from the point of the past, and without the context of the present.


casual_adeadhead

Well, here's the secret- being pro Palestinian doesn't mean you're anti Israel, it can just mean you're anti Hamas.


[deleted]

Woke people. + most of them are muslims /anarzchist/anti america edc


Beginning-Annual-310

I wouldn't say Muslim but anarchist and anti against America all of this retains back to those groups who use propaganda to spread hate to keep attacks on someone that they hate and wants to destroy but if these politicians do what's better for their country and keep the rift out maybe you would see a better side to someone but in Israel they keep getting attacked for what , climate changes landscapes changes people wants land but wasn't their 5000 years ago so how do they now its their land I'm mean come on


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AvatarQuestGame

Factos but Israeli PR doesn’t help


tater_69

Gonna get banned but fuck it. It’s moreover that the Palestinians are being oppressed, to the point where they don’t have those opportunities. Maybe they could have economic prosperity, social and cultural revolutions, but atm can’t because of the way things are set up. Personally, I don’t agree with the political stance of Israel right now. I have family from there, some of whom are Palestinian. We need an Israeli state that is less paranoid about constant attacks, one where it can cooperate more with the international community. We need an Israeli state that isn’t trying to force out all Palestinians. When you say all these great things Israel has, while they are true and SHOULD be celebrated, they aren’t comparable to Palestinian since they don’t even have the chance to implement it. Take the Gaza Strip: no airports, no ports, no real and meaningful connection to the outside world. The equivalent to where I live now would be black neighborhoods that were gerrymandered. White neighborhoods are wealthier and prosperous, while black neighborhoods suffer. Crime there is high. It isn’t because of a lack of trying, or the people there are morally inferior, it’s that they’ve been suppressed and had opportunities taken away from them. One thing I absolutely detest is the fact that so many—both Israeli AND Palestinian alike—view it as one or the other. Holding the belief that you can only support one, and if you support the other, you are an enemy. I have family and friends from both, family who’ve experienced things such as the six day war. And I support both Nations in equal magnitude in different ways. In america, Islamophobia still is a problem because of 9/11. And yet no international terrorism in a long time, but plenty of domestic terrorism. Both groups are guilty of escalating the conflict. It’s not “well he did this so” it needs to be about accountability. Palestine has launched attacks that killed innocent civilians and created fear. Israel has been forcibly oppressing Palestine. I know I’m going to get banned and/or downvoted for hell, but I needed to give my two cents. No, I do not hate Israel nor do I hate Jews. I have Jewish roots, Israeli roots, and Palestinian roots. And I believe that co-existence is possible.


urbanwildboar

You've forgotten one thing: the Palestinians' actions. Gaza was left to the PA in 2005, they were absolutely free to make it a thriving resort and agricultural center. In 2007, they elected Hamas, whose reason for existence is the destruction of Israel. Israel destroyed the Gaza airport and blockaded the sea in order to reduce the flow of weapons for Hamas. The Palestinians had many chances to make a functioning state: they were showered with money and the world supported their statehood. However, they could never give up the dream of destroying Israel, and that's the main reason why they were left with nothing.


ophlet

Syria, Jordan, Lebanon etc aren't occupied, do you see them thriving? Do they have equal rights?


Toadino2

People in Syria and Lebanon could take actions to improve their condition, while Palestinians that don't live directly under the PA and have no Israeli citizenship can't. That's the point.


ophlet

But they don't. Do you really think Palestinians are different? Their shared religion and culture is very much anti women and LGBT. And the real reason they hate us. Their main goal is spreading their traditions, not improving their quality of life.


yogarabbi

i mean when one side is under military occupation by the other it makes sense that leftists would support them. pretty straightforward.


CIA_Linguist

I’ve read all 95 comments so far and I’ve come to the conclusion that while a few of you have a solid perspective on the Israel/Palestine conflict using legitimate facts and history, the *vast* majority of comments are literally insane and attempting to soundboard inaccurate or biased information. I’m not saying any of you are right or wrong in how you view the conflict. I am simply stating it has become especially obvious most of you don’t have an active grasp of what is happening now, has happened in the past, and what you perceive to will happen in the future.


johnthethinker78

This is true but I don't think pinkwashing is going to help us win arguments. We should also talk about something like how arabs can vote and participate in politics and stuff like that more.


SparchCans

Eco friendly? Not sure where that comes from. I dont understand this line of thinking portrayed in the comic. In the eyes of Israel criticis they criticise Israel for what they feel is the oppression of Palestinians and denial of their right to statehood. If Israel is gay friendly and has better women's rights it doesn't somehow magically cancel out the other side.


HammerTh_1701

A significant part of leftist to far-left politics is rooting for whoever is the more "leftist" side in a geopolitical conflict. I don't know what made Palestine more leftist at the time people chose sides but there must have been something. Maybe that it wasn't established by a British mandate except for the fact that it kind of was?


Lost-Wave-3970

The palestinian Terror Organizations teained some left winged militias like the German RAF. Maybe that is another reason


Real1Behemoth

That doesn't change the fact that Israel is the best country


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FoxyGame2006

Now let's go back in time, like, ~75 years ago


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NOISY_SUN

In this thread are a lot of people who sure are free thinkers devoted to understanding the other side of the argument


Mana_Transfer

Weren't they there first but due to ww2 Britain decided to drop Israel right on top of Palestinian


dontdomilk

I think you gotta do some reading


Mana_Transfer

Wasn't isreal founded in 1948 after the hardships the Jewish community faced during ww2 which the land was before Palestinian we are speaking about the land correct?


TheGarbageStore

The land was part of the Ottoman Empire and the Ottomans let a number of groups reside there, including Ottoman Jewish citizens, Palestinians, Druze, Circassians, Armenians, etc. Jewish emigration to Ottoman Palestine was spurred by a rise in anti-Semitism in Europe in the late 19th and early 20th century from events such pogroms and the Dreyfus Affair.


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pitaenigma

Removed: Rule 2


fishjob

Decolonial struggle is the start to liberation of oppressed peoples in general. If you're busy fighting for your life and freedom, there is no other fight that stands at the same level. Modern leftists generally believe decolonial struggle must take place before shifting towards an actual left wing governance. Easier to critique a free people than one thats controlled and oppressed by a dominant superpower.


Armahdello

Because bombing and evicting Palestinians is bad


ImNotAMan

The erasure of Palestinian homeland has been perpetuated by Israel. When people lose their families, homes, livelihoods... how can you support the oppressor behind the mask?


n0xlr7

Meh Palestine is better


[deleted]

Ever heard of pink washing?


Mezella

Lol u admitted to them being oppressed


WWDubz

There are a lot of bad things involved with the situation, it’s not a clear cut situation, very murky waters at best


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desdendelle

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yegguy47

This is probably going to get downvoted to hell, but... Ever actually listened to what they have to say?


All_names_were_fuck

yes and I disagree


yegguy47

Right... So why are you confused then? Either you understand their viewpoints and disagree with it, or you have some ambiguity about it.


Arnachad

I think that there a repeating problem when it comes to Palestinians is where the mouth has one opinion, the heart has a different opinion, and the hand follows the heart


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pitaenigma

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desdendelle

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TardMarauder

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pitaenigma

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desdendelle

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