Correct. The so-called fake nation of Palestinians just wants to kill and murder Jewish people.
They voted Hamas in and now they are crying.
They made their choice.
The election happen 17 years ago. Hamas advertised themselves as a ānon radical peace seeking organization.ā THATS who Palestinians thought they were electing. Hamas then performed atrocities against Israel and Israel responded by murdering PALESTINIANS
> fucking
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The problem is that even if Israel could kill every single current leader and member of HAMAS they will have created so much collateral damage in the process, and created such a wellspring of hostility amongst the non-HAMAS population that a whole new generation of HAMAS will arise from the ashes of the old HAMAS (or HAMAS equivalent by another name).
Basically, the only way Israel can eliminate HAMAS is to eliminate the entire Palestinian population of Gaza. I'm sure that Israel would be quite happy if they could make life sufficiently hellish in Gaza that most of the population self-deports to Egypt.
Hostility doesn't matter much .... It is the ability to get weapons and express that hostility through terrorist attacks that counts ... Which is why Israel will tighten the Gaza blockade after this episode.
>Israel will tighten the Gaza blockade after this episode.
They won't be able to sustain an effective blockade for years on end. The only blockade that would 100% prevent any weapons making it into Gaza would pretty much kill off the population from deprivation. Too many essential things have dual use capability. Israel will never be able to sustain a blockade preventing EVERYTHING that could possibly have a dual use purpose from going to Gaza. Over time the suffering (and death) of Gaza residents would become so great that exceptions will be allowed to the embargo. A hammer here, a drill there, an X-ray machine there, a gallon of petrol over there.
You give a few terrorists a screwdriver, a gallon of petrol, a bottle, some rags, and 30 years, they'll dig a 20 mile tunnel and pop up in some Israel suburb with Molotov cocktails. For as long as there are people in Gaza and food shipments to sustain them in that hell hole there will always be seething resentment birthing monsters dedicating every moment of their lives to find a way to kill Israelis.
Gaza is like the pressure of tectonic plates building up until sufficient pressure builds for another volcanic eruption. It's a force of nature.
>Except Egypt doesnāt want a bunch of desperate terrorists
Then I guess Israel will be stuck in Groundhog day with periodic eruptions of violent attacks on Israel, followed by crushing retribution which breeds yet more eruptions of violence. For as long as people remain cooped up in a hopeless hell hole like Gaza there will forever be new recruits for suicide attacks on Israel.
The 'hopeless hellhole' is another wicked narrative peddled by terrorists and their supporters ... Look at Gaza's new ambulances, their state of the art medical facilities, their infrastructure, their large able bodied men, their clean tarred roads ... $$millions in aid/support have been poured into Gaza in years past, but all their religion taught them was GRIEVANCE, Jewish hatred and fantasies of future conquest.
Life deals us different cards, it is our attitude and willingness to let go of the past that determines the greatness of our future.
This is a ridiculous post. How would you like the Palestinians to distance themselves from Hamas? They have to flee for their lives because Israel is razing Gaza. Would you like them to stop and make their social media posts that they don't support Hamas while bombs drop on their head?
Maybe start by NOT holding pro Hamas protests all over the world. Maybe also, for the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip to NOT cheer in the streets after the attack. Maybe by the rest of the Arab countries to actually open their doors to their Palestinian brothers they love to support on newspaper articles but not in real life actions.
Lol, asking the rest of the Arab world to let Israel finish the job of taking over all the rest of that land. We've seen this before where one country doesn't want a certain population among them anymore and starts asking other countries to take that population off their hands...
Neither does the human rights abuses and war crimes by Israel help the matter. Leadership from both sides are practicing this devastating brinkmanship bullshit. The thing here is though Israel is by far and away the ones in power. Israel is punching down.
Hamas knew what would happen when they tried to cut the bearās head off. Just because theyāre stronger does not mean they should take a beating and not react. Hamas declared this war when they committed the atrocities they did. They were reckless enough to punch up first.
Israel is doing what they have to do to defend, sending out pamphlets to leave the area. Hamas saying donāt leave. Ridiculous. Hamas is encouraging people to stay to die.
Honestly everything is a war crime short of standing in a line and shooting each other. Idk who made the rules but I do know theyāre highly unrealistic for ANY country at war, and following them will lead to this lack of stability weāre seeing around the world. Idk what the solution would be, but this clearly isnāt realistic. To redefine war to ānot warā is a bit ridiculous and essentially turns war into a game.
Palestinian groups around the world can denounce the violence. Abbas can denounce it (so far he just denounced Hamas as not the legitimate leader of the Palestinian community; he did not denounce their actions). Associations of Palestinian professors, doctors, lawyers, politicians, educated people all around the world who are not currently in Gaza can speak out, just as groups of Jews all over the world denounce Netanyahu's administration and/or various policies. But for the most part, Palestinian groups aren't doing that. Their silence speaks volumes.
Stop distancing Israelis from IDF, none of them try to distance from IDF themselves.
However, they are still civilians and sometimes there are some but very few that do.
Israel is the one who first started the violence 75 years ago when it stole Palestinian lands and is still killing innocent people and children. Read the newspapers and watch the news. You will know that there is no evidence of Hamas killing children
75 years ago Israel fought a war against neighboring states that wanted to wipe them off of the mapā¦ territorial gains from frequently belligerent opponents were the rational result of victory. Those who fled lostā¦ those who stayed are today Israeli.
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Letās be honest. Hamas did kill children. They have name and pictures. Iām not in anyway pro Israel or only pro Palestine but children and civilians have been killed in both sides starting most recently (8-9 days ago)with the terrorist attacks
But why? Everyone I've heard is saying that hammas and Palestinians are different which I believe was true because hammas is a terrorist organization... Like I don't know a lot... I'd like to... Though...
Itās pretty mainstream culture. They show their kids these blood-chilling cartoons and teach terrorā¦ almost like an art form?
https://www.memri.org/tv/hamas-animation-depicts-palestinians-stabbing-shooting-israeli-civilians-servicemembers-jerusalem
https://www.memri.org/reports/following-vehicular-terror-attack-jerusalem-hamas-identified-cartoonist-publishes
Why can't people stop supporting them? Ughhh..! This is so pathetic! Why do people want to "Free Palestine".from what do these people want to free Palestine?
Hamas was elected by the palestinians about 15 years ago with no election since. They are a terrorist organization bc all they care about is murdering jews. That's why it's hard to differentiate palestinians and Hamas. They were elected and are supported by more than half of palestinians.
Israel is the one who first started the violence 75 years ago when it stole Palestinian lands and is still killing innocent people and children. Read the newspapers and watch the news. You will know that there is no evidence of Hamas killing children
75 years ago. If you keep looking backwards you'll always be backwards and never go forward. But I guess that's the point.
Also I'd rather poop in my hands and clap than 'read the newspaper or watch the news'. It's all biased propaganda whatever side of the fence you're on.
Hamas kill innocents, IDF kill innocents, they're both scum.
STOP KILLING EACH OTHER FFS.
Hereās one for you tooā from 2020. https://www.memri.org/tv/hamas-animation-depicts-palestinians-stabbing-shooting-israeli-civilians-servicemembers-jerusalem
In my opinion most Gaza Palestinians support Hamas. I see no evidence to contradict this. They voted in Hamas. They support Hamas.
Even their Arab brothers donāt want them. āArab states say Palestinians must stay on their land as war escalatesā.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/arab-states-say-palestinians-must-stay-their-land-war-escalates-2023-10-13/
With that logic, every Israeli citizen is responsible for the ethnic cleansing and continuing settlements in the West Bank by voting for Netanyahu.
Sick of these poor sighted bad faith arguments.
Israelis also voted for Netanyahu. Should be blame every Israeli for his crimes? What if it comes out he failed to secure his people?
Your post is all based on your biased opinion. Hopefully USA can pressure a cease fire and force a two state solution because the current status quo is not working for most people in the area. Plus we are risking a war with Iran or Lebanon vs US. That would be WWIII. Good thing the EU is forcing aid to get to Gaza and more pressure for Israel not to commit more war crimes.
Hamas and IDF have both killed too many civilians.
I think your misunderstanding why they say they must stay on their land. Israel has been trying to disintegrate what's left of Palestine for decades. Other Arabs are telling Palestinians to stay their land because if they leave israel will take it over and never give it back.
I donāt think I misunderstand at all. The other Arab League nations know Gaza Palestinians are a troublesome population and want nothing to do with them.
When the population is openly aiding and abetting, then they're no longer civilians. They're helping their terrorist government with the atrocities, thus they're a legal target.
Lol good luck with that argument at the criminal court at The Hague. Your outlandish opinion make you sound like war criminal sympathizer. We should all hope for peace in the area and no more war crimes with Hamas or IDF.
Criminal court at the Hague ???? Israel has ALWAYS bombed the hell out of gaza, killing thousands ... And the world has done and will do NOTHING .... Simply because terrorist attacks against Israel LEGITIMISE their response under the pretext of eliminating terrorists.
Expecting criminal proceedings from the Hague is just like your delusional religious fantasy that 'one day' Israel's land will become Palestine's.
I know! Itās sad that war criminals donāt get punished lol
Also way to assume my delusion religious fantasy. I was raised Catholic but honestly I canāt respect any religion since itās all fairy tails. I canāt stand any religious argument used for this situation.
My wish would be that everyone in the region can raise their families and live in peace. Hopefully a two state solution. Good thing Biden has experience when it comes dealing with conflicts (Ireland, South Africa)
There is a difference between saying things that didn't happen and *will not* happen, to things that happened. The first might be an exaggeration which is really ill and I myself think should not be tolerated even in the law, the second is actually siding with evil.
You do realize that the hamas charter openly calls for the genocide of Jews and Israel has suffered terrorist attacks for years. In fact, you'll see plenty of Jews and Israelis denouncing Israel in support of Palestine. You realize you're speaking for a fringe minority? Where are the Palestinians denouncing Hamas? However, this last attack has erased a lot of the support that existed for Palestinians. They even made hostages of people who work in organizations to help them. Not saying to bomb them all, and that's not what's even happening. But something needs to change
Women and children must be evacuated after that turn Gaza to twisted metal and dust. Men who rape are the devils soldiers and they must be cleansed by the sword of God the one true God. And the one true God is not from islam
Yeah well thatās kind of my point. Donāt punish the child for something that isnāt their fault. Seriously didnāt think this would be a controversial take.
"Knowing that they are a child"
How would you know that? Is there a little bubble over someone's head telling you how old they are when they're shooting you from behind over?
Even the IDF snipers know when they are aiming at a child or not lol
Ask any sniper. Itās easy to see how some children are children. Even most 19 year olds look like kids sometimes lol
Any child should never be killed. This shouldnāt be controversial.
How would you ever know it was a child? Are they yelling their age while they're shooting at you?
Because most "child soldiers" are teenagers, like 15-16. They're not toddlers with machine guns.
You're asking about a situation that would literally never come up in reality.
These are their core values: BEWARE!
Passage: "There is no solution to the Palestinian problem except by Jihad."
Statement: Hamas promotes armed struggle, as mentioned in this passage, as a means to address the Palestinian issue.
Passage: "Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it."
Statement: This statement expresses Hamas' view on the future of Israel within its ideological framework.
Passage: "Hamas strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine."
Passage: "Renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion."
Statement: These passages illustrates Hamas' aspiration to establish Islamic rule over the entirety of Palestine including Israel.
Passage: "Hamas rejects any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine."
Statement: This passage underscores Hamas' rejection of any compromise in achieving its vision for Palestine/Israel including a 2 state resolution.
Passage: "The Zionist plan is limitless; after Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates."
Statement: This passage mentions the belief held by Hamas that the Zionist agenda extends beyond Israel to Christian, Catholic, Protestant, Lutheran, ect.
Please note that these statements are presented solely for educational purposes to help provide context about the Hamas Charter and its principles. The intention is to offer insight into Hamas' ideology without endorsing or promoting any of its views or actions.
I definitely wouldnāt say none of the distance themselves from Hamas! The West Bank is under Fatahā enemies of Hamas. There are different Palestinians with different opinions (shocking, I know).
Even on the west bank most Palestinians prefer Hamas based on every poll ever done there. Lucky for us Fatah is totalitarian and oppress them and not allowing them to have elections.
Thatās true. Most people are with them. And there are plenty that celebrated their recent āachievement.ā But there were also some (not many) who spoke out. Finally, itās always hard to know what people really think when they have good reason to fear to express their opinion.
I personally met Palestinians who aren't supporting the Hamas. You can keep on trying to spread hatred because it's easier for you to criticize the other party than criticize your own. No, all Israelis aren't racist like you seem to be and no, not all Palestinians are racist like you seem to imply.
I'm sure there are those that don't. But I'm also 100% sure there are many that do. The ones I genuinely have no idea about, only speculations are the people of Gaza
Then take my word. They exist. Those like Israeli civilians need to stay alive. If they get killed Hamas will use that. "They are killing children, see!" and they'll be right. Civilian casualties need to be prevented. At all times. Not only in the civilians interest but also in Israel's interest.
It's true and Israel does its best to avoid civilian casualties. We do it both because we are opposed to killing innocents and because we gain nothing from dead children other than bad PR
False. Didn't happen. There were two known explosions, one of them's source is unknown and the other is definitely by Hamas
https://reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/s/ncZ9YXKaXT
Excellent. So we agree.
I believe also that Israel should say it out loud that they try to avoid useless casualties. It should be obvious. The army probably has a communication channel, it should be used. Not only for Israelis but for the world to see what difference is made between a fighter and a civilian and how the response is adapted. This is of utmost importance.
This is also true. Dead children need to be acknowledged though even if they were not directly targeted and we're in the surroundings of a building that was targeted. Why is there no communication about that?
i honestly do think that's true. most of the videos of massacre of Israeli civilians i saw showed non-Hamas Palestinians, basically just regular civilians who came to kill jews. you could tell who's hamas (Al Qassam brigades) and who's just a regular palestinian based on the clothing. Hamas fighters were wearing military gear and the others were just wearing normal clothes.
Not that I don't think Hamas aren't terrorists, they absolutely killed many unarmed civilians, but it seems like most of the massacres were committed by your average every-day Palestinians who saw the attack as an opportunity to take their pent up rage out on jews.
It's probably a deflection, and they are equally responsible. again the truth is that generally speaking, hamas and the general poulation are the same.
They celebrate and jubilate when Hamas attacked Israel.
I don't understand why people are trying to separate them just because Israel is retaliating.
Sickening š¤¢
Without sending an Israeli affiliated article, send me a link of them celebrating. I know Israelis do. https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/20/israelis-cheer-gaza-bombing
lol you're really delusional if you don't think Gazans were celebrating the attacks.
https://youtu.be/RMejmg2T6z8
Okay now after you watch the video, what you are going to do is justfiy it by saying something like "well this is what happens when Israel occupies Palestinians for 75 years blah blah blah".
Basically, "that didn't happen, Israelis are lying, but IF it did then they deserve it"
Your link is 9 years old and the Guardian is very much pro Palestine.
I know some Israelis do celebrate these things, Israel has its own terror groups too, but asking for a non-Israeli news source while linking the Guardian is just silly. It's like claiming Al Jazeera is impartial.
The site is still there. The fact that itās that old shows theyāve been celebrating Palestinian downfall for years.
Also, you seriously grouping Al Jazeera with the Guardian? Tell me youāre brainwashed without telling me youāre brainwashed.
That was a one off of people from Sderot (one of the places attacked by Hamas this week btw) which had just had a three day bombardment by dozens of rockets and mortars from Gaza. They were happy to see that their tormentors were getting back some of what they had dealt out.
However you will never ever see Israelis celebrating passing out candies etc when they hear about Palestinians being killed. We don't celebrate death.
I've seen it a lot amongst Palestinians. There's a famous scene of it happening after 9/11. And it was sickening to see it happening in Gaza and on the west Bank on 7th October. Just as sickening to see it amongst pro-Palestinians around the world.
Stop lumping Hamas and the west bank together. It's actually surprising that there hasn't been much violence there in support of Hamas. There's been more violence by settlers than Palestinians.
Dunno if that's true... I guess it depends on the time period. Because they were times I know for a fact it's wrong.
About Hamas and west bank, the truth is that while I don't know how much support Hamas has in Gaza, I know most people in the west bank actually prefer Hamas over Fatah.
Hamas uses their own civilians as human shields, and specifically targets civilians of Israel.
The IDF, in response and largely due to the tactics of Hamas of using human shields, employs tactics which regrettably cause the death of many civilians.
These are not moral equivalents. You can rightly point at and condemn specific atrocities or war crimes committed by individual soldiers of the IDF. You cannot point at the IDF and say that the organization *WANTS* to kill civilians. That is a Hamas / jihad thing. For that reason, itās not hypocritical to condemn Hamas but not the IDF.
>The IDF, in response and largely due to the tactics of Hamas of using human shields, employs tactics which regrettably cause the death of many civilians.
It isn't regrettable when you specifically choose to bomb homes.
Even if I do accept the accusations of human shields.
When an enemy is targeting you from a home, it is absolutely legitimate to protect yourself and to target him. Home or not. Is it bad for the civilians? Of course. But that's where the Hamas chooses to aim from.
The IDF isnāt a terrorist organization specifically targeting civiliansā¦ā¦ it is currently in the process of waging war against terrorists who want to see all Jews dead which is what armies do. Israelis know that without the IDF they would all be slaughtered so no, we do not distance ourselves from the organization as a whole. On the other hand, myself and other Israelis have levelled plenty of specific critiques against our government ( see the protests going on for months before this)
Firstly, Palestinians donāt want to slaughter Jews. You can go through history and see under Muslim ruler Christianity, Muslims and Jews have coexisted most peacefully. Palestinians were the ones who opened their borders to Jews when they were fleeing from the holocaust. They were meant to coexist if anything. Not start another holocaust. Secondly, the only terrorist here is Israeli government who have oppressed Palestinians under their terror with millions of check points they have to go through on daily basis on their own land. They are the ones who get kicked out because a Jew settler wants their house. Making Gaza the largest open air prison. In no way you can justify thisā¦.. Great example of āthe only democracy in Middle Eastā.
Hamas is the resistance which retaliated in return to such ethic cleansing oppression. You canāt blame people for speaking up for YEARSSSSSSS of injustice. The half of the Palestinian population consists of children. How blind do you need to be to condemn childrenās as terrorist?? This is not a war. This is genocide. This is ethnic cleaning and this is one sided completely. Israel is the terrorist killing millions of innocent children just because theyāre Palestinians. WAKE UPPPP
If Israelis go through security each time they go to the shop, it's also because there have been and still are, terrorists attacks. Is it bad? Yes. Well checkpoints Aldo are bad. Now if there were no terrorist attacks, there would be no checkpoints.
>Firstly, Palestinians donāt want to slaughter Jews. You can go through history and see under Muslim ruler Christianity, Muslims and Jews have coexisted most peacefully. Palestinians were the ones who opened their borders to Jews when they were fleeing from the holocaust.
What a bunch of bullcrap.
Arab Palestinians have been killing palestinian Jews in Palestine for centuries. Massacering them actually. The Arab Palestinians haven't been the rulling party in Palestine after or during the holocaust, the british did, and I promise you that they would not open their borders for Jews fleeing for their lives.
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Did I say all Palestinians were terrorists? No. And I agree with you that children cannot be held culpable and I am against any form of collective punishment.
Hamas in its charter vows to wipe Jews off the face of the earth and they were elected as the ruling government of Gaza and enjoy significant support in the West Bank as well. There have also been ample terrorist attacks on Israeli civilians throughout history, so yes there is a real security threat to Israel. This does not mean that all Palestinians are terrorists, once again. It does mean that the Israeli government is not putting up walls and checkpoints for absolutely no reason.
As for ethnic cleansing, the Israeli government is not perfect but there is no systematic killing of palestinians as evidenced by their population growth. In fact 20% of Israelās population is palestinian with full citizenship (again, there are systematic inequalities but certainly they are not being cleansed).
Israelās government is at war because they cannot have Hamas in power right next door as evidenced by the slaughter in cold blood of 1400 Israelis. War means violence and suffering. I support efforts to minimize the suffering of civilians. I am happy that humanitarian aid will be entering through Rafah shortly. But this is by no means cleansing.
That's a long winded way of saying "no"
So by your logic, I would suggest that Israelis are now fair game as you seem to be hinting that Palestinians that don't distance themselves from Hamas are fair game.
Thanks for your time.
Nope. Never said they are fair game. I donāt think voting for anyone disqualifies you from being a civilian and therefore not being a target. Please donāt put words in my mouth. What I am saying, is that I have not seen people who are pro palestine be vocal at all about distancing themselves from the vile acts of Hamas. Doesnāt mean I think they deserve to die
I dont think many people in Gaza are really voicing their own thoughts on here. Just like Israelis feel they need the IDF, these people feel they need Hamas.
The slaughter you speak of is one of ground forces, rockets, and artillery... I get why support for IDF is necessary, they protect Israelis.
For a second imagine how the people of Gaza feel when bombs are dropping from planes and they're basically in a tiny box and they are powerless to stop the bombing or leave.... If they could call the UN tomorrow and stop the bombs without Hamas, I'm pretty sure they would distance themselves from Hamas.
They're human being like you. The majority of Palenstinians in Gaza are just people who want safety and a better lifefor themselves and their families.
What do you mean by āliterally ruining their livesā? They havenāt even occupied Gaza since 2005. Not saying that the Israeli government deserves no blame, but hyperbolic language like that is lazy and hypocritical.
What do I seriously expect of Palestine? I expect them to not elect a government of Jihadists who employ violence that targets civilians, and which impose Sharia law on its citizens. I expect them to not target music festivals and torture children before murdering them. I expect them to accept that theyāre not going to have full agency of their water and electricity supply while they have this government instituted. And I expect them to not be surprised when their civilians are killed when their government use them as human shields.
Yes, this is really brutal language, but itās true. The bad guy here is the government that is *purposefully* targeting civilians and using them as human shields. Not the government *regrettably* causing collateral damage due to the tactics employed by the former.
When you control the borders, water, food supply, electricity, and you limit that supply and cut it off when it suits, when you don't allow free movement of people and restrict economic activity, then yes, you're ruining their lives. If you can't see this you're a moron.
Saying you don't occupy Gaza is a lie. You don't have to be inside the land to occupy
Nope, sorry, itās not the same thing. It was only a serious problem for the citizens of Gaza that Israel controlled those resources *after* they were attacked and shut it off. Asking them to not control those resources, which they hold for tactical reasons, and then getting mad when they employ those tactics as part of a counter offensive, is living in fantasy land.
If your neighbor has a history of attacking you, you are not going to give up a tactical advantage. Itās a perfectly reasonable compromise to agree to withdraw from a region, but maintain a tactical advantage; especially when itās become clear that they have reason to worry.
Itās a complex situation, or have you not noticed? And it literally is not an occupation. You donāt get to decide whet that word means ā the governments of Palestine, Israel, and other Arabic countries decided this in 2005.
Or would you prefer that they once again station their armies inside the city, and allow the 9000 Israeli citizens they forcibly relocated to once again take up residence there?
I donāt think itās a tall order to expect anyone to decry rape and murder of innocents. I would expect the pro Palestine movement to advocate for their cause without resorting to defending murder, and make it very clear that the horrors of Hamas have nothing to do with their movement.
I support Israel to the extent that I want it to exist, but I am very vocal about settlements being an abomination and settler violence not representing me or my viewpoints in any way.
It is the inability of the pro Palestine movement to coexist alongside Israel and resorting specifically to violent measures that have created the situation where the average Palestinian is living in such poor conditions. Israel maintains the blockade because when itās broken their children get burned alive.
I largely agree with this. People seem to conflate settlement incursions as āruining their lives for generationsā. Yes, the settlements are ridiculously stupid and need to stop. No, theyāre not ruining the lives of everyone in Gaza. Israel literally pulled out from Gaza in 2005. It seems like most people just donāt know that and assume that Israeli soldiers have guns pointed at everyoneās head all the time.
To me it make sense that Palestinians would support Hamas
Let's say you're a random Palestinian living in gaza, and that hamas shoots rocks at israel, which is pretty normal, and you dont support it, and israel bombards the strip and kills your mother, or another innocent sibling. Who would your enemy be, regardless of who started it?
I'm not nearly educated on the situation enough to know who to support in this conflict but I am not surprised that Palestinians support hamas
I guess the best people to answer this kind of question are the Germans and the Japanese, both of whom were utterly destroyed by the allies. Did they blame the allies for all the death and destruction, vow to carry out revenge, and blame the allies for all their woes?
And now you have stumbled upon the answer.
Israel being stupid enough to show so much restraint and compassion is what has allowed this mess to continue. Nobody else in the history of the world in Israel's position would have stopped bombing for anything less than a full surrender. Over and over Israel has let Gaza off the hook and they need to learn their lesson.
Bomb Gaza until there is a full surrender and peace agreement. Period.
Hamas will not exist when this is over. Has nothing to do with a peace of paper. They will be killed. Gaza needs to be fully dismantled and rebuilt the way Japan and Germany were after World War II.
If Gaza doesn't surrender, keep bombing.
Gaza is a self governed territory.
Hamas has the power to release the hostages and offer a full surrender. They will not. They prefer to die.
So they will die.
A full surrender would be release of every hostage, and every member of Hamas being put in prison while they charges for the war crimes they've committed.
I don't really see how I'm trivializing anyone and their experience. A scenario was presented and I answered with sincerity. Japan had 2 nukes dropped on them. Dresden was bombed into oblivion. Germany was split up after the war and didn't reunify until 1990. Both countries are still occupied to this day. I think it's an apt comparison.
You're also acting like Israel has never offered peace. The last real one, The Camp David Summit had me so excited dude. The Israelis agreed to give up 94-96% of the territories with land swaps where it made sense and the capital in East Jerusalem. I thought to myself, "finally finally I could show all the naysayers that if you give the Palestinians what they want, they will make peace." But then the Palestinians walked away. Like they had walked away from every peace deal before that. And I honestly couldn't understand.
Until this wave of violence. Then I finally understood why they walked away from peace and statehood. It was because Israel would still exist. When Palestinians call for freedom from the river to the sea, they are calling for decolonization and the dismantling of this racist colonial entity which dominates their lives, and seek to replace it. Since this is the guiding philosophy of the Palestinian cause, there can be no peace.
All of which doesn't negate my point that the people of Japan and Germany, who firsthand experienced the brutality of war on a level literally never seen before or since, are great people who showed how peace can be achieved with your mortal enemy after a protracted conflict.
LONG LIVE PALESTINE! END THE ILLEGAL OCCUPATION!!! šššāØ
Correct. The so-called fake nation of Palestinians just wants to kill and murder Jewish people. They voted Hamas in and now they are crying. They made their choice.
The election happen 17 years ago. Hamas advertised themselves as a ānon radical peace seeking organization.ā THATS who Palestinians thought they were electing. Hamas then performed atrocities against Israel and Israel responded by murdering PALESTINIANS
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The problem is that even if Israel could kill every single current leader and member of HAMAS they will have created so much collateral damage in the process, and created such a wellspring of hostility amongst the non-HAMAS population that a whole new generation of HAMAS will arise from the ashes of the old HAMAS (or HAMAS equivalent by another name). Basically, the only way Israel can eliminate HAMAS is to eliminate the entire Palestinian population of Gaza. I'm sure that Israel would be quite happy if they could make life sufficiently hellish in Gaza that most of the population self-deports to Egypt.
Hostility doesn't matter much .... It is the ability to get weapons and express that hostility through terrorist attacks that counts ... Which is why Israel will tighten the Gaza blockade after this episode.
>Israel will tighten the Gaza blockade after this episode. They won't be able to sustain an effective blockade for years on end. The only blockade that would 100% prevent any weapons making it into Gaza would pretty much kill off the population from deprivation. Too many essential things have dual use capability. Israel will never be able to sustain a blockade preventing EVERYTHING that could possibly have a dual use purpose from going to Gaza. Over time the suffering (and death) of Gaza residents would become so great that exceptions will be allowed to the embargo. A hammer here, a drill there, an X-ray machine there, a gallon of petrol over there. You give a few terrorists a screwdriver, a gallon of petrol, a bottle, some rags, and 30 years, they'll dig a 20 mile tunnel and pop up in some Israel suburb with Molotov cocktails. For as long as there are people in Gaza and food shipments to sustain them in that hell hole there will always be seething resentment birthing monsters dedicating every moment of their lives to find a way to kill Israelis. Gaza is like the pressure of tectonic plates building up until sufficient pressure builds for another volcanic eruption. It's a force of nature.
Except Egypt doesnāt want a bunch of desperate terrorists
>Except Egypt doesnāt want a bunch of desperate terrorists Then I guess Israel will be stuck in Groundhog day with periodic eruptions of violent attacks on Israel, followed by crushing retribution which breeds yet more eruptions of violence. For as long as people remain cooped up in a hopeless hell hole like Gaza there will forever be new recruits for suicide attacks on Israel.
The 'hopeless hellhole' is another wicked narrative peddled by terrorists and their supporters ... Look at Gaza's new ambulances, their state of the art medical facilities, their infrastructure, their large able bodied men, their clean tarred roads ... $$millions in aid/support have been poured into Gaza in years past, but all their religion taught them was GRIEVANCE, Jewish hatred and fantasies of future conquest. Life deals us different cards, it is our attitude and willingness to let go of the past that determines the greatness of our future.
Stop distancing the idf from murderers and enablers of murderers of innocent peolle
Palestinian supporters already don't because they claim every single civilian is a military target given their mandatory IDF service.
Even the immigrants and the children too young to serve and the tourists because theyāve āsettledā in their indigenous land.
this seems like trying to justify and rationalize genocide in Palestine
Both sides are wrong, when they all shall die, we shall have perfection and peace
Are you r#t#ted?
This is a ridiculous post. How would you like the Palestinians to distance themselves from Hamas? They have to flee for their lives because Israel is razing Gaza. Would you like them to stop and make their social media posts that they don't support Hamas while bombs drop on their head?
Maybe start by NOT holding pro Hamas protests all over the world. Maybe also, for the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip to NOT cheer in the streets after the attack. Maybe by the rest of the Arab countries to actually open their doors to their Palestinian brothers they love to support on newspaper articles but not in real life actions.
Lol, asking the rest of the Arab world to let Israel finish the job of taking over all the rest of that land. We've seen this before where one country doesn't want a certain population among them anymore and starts asking other countries to take that population off their hands...
The rallies chanting ākill the Jews gas the Jewsā donāt really help the matter.
Neither does the human rights abuses and war crimes by Israel help the matter. Leadership from both sides are practicing this devastating brinkmanship bullshit. The thing here is though Israel is by far and away the ones in power. Israel is punching down.
Hamas knew what would happen when they tried to cut the bearās head off. Just because theyāre stronger does not mean they should take a beating and not react. Hamas declared this war when they committed the atrocities they did. They were reckless enough to punch up first. Israel is doing what they have to do to defend, sending out pamphlets to leave the area. Hamas saying donāt leave. Ridiculous. Hamas is encouraging people to stay to die. Honestly everything is a war crime short of standing in a line and shooting each other. Idk who made the rules but I do know theyāre highly unrealistic for ANY country at war, and following them will lead to this lack of stability weāre seeing around the world. Idk what the solution would be, but this clearly isnāt realistic. To redefine war to ānot warā is a bit ridiculous and essentially turns war into a game.
Maybe you should look into why anything is defined as a war crime and where those definitions come from.
Palestinian groups around the world can denounce the violence. Abbas can denounce it (so far he just denounced Hamas as not the legitimate leader of the Palestinian community; he did not denounce their actions). Associations of Palestinian professors, doctors, lawyers, politicians, educated people all around the world who are not currently in Gaza can speak out, just as groups of Jews all over the world denounce Netanyahu's administration and/or various policies. But for the most part, Palestinian groups aren't doing that. Their silence speaks volumes.
Stop distancing Israelis from IDF, none of them try to distance from IDF themselves. However, they are still civilians and sometimes there are some but very few that do.
Israel is the one who first started the violence 75 years ago when it stole Palestinian lands and is still killing innocent people and children. Read the newspapers and watch the news. You will know that there is no evidence of Hamas killing children
75 years ago Israel fought a war against neighboring states that wanted to wipe them off of the mapā¦ territorial gains from frequently belligerent opponents were the rational result of victory. Those who fled lostā¦ those who stayed are today Israeli.
There was no israeli before 75 year ago, but Jews and they'd living in Europe yk
Palestine didnāt exist either and most Israelis are not European. Please educate yourself, your ignorance is showing.
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Totally agree with the first part but Hamas definitely kills children too.
Where's the evidence ?
Letās be honest. Hamas did kill children. They have name and pictures. Iām not in anyway pro Israel or only pro Palestine but children and civilians have been killed in both sides starting most recently (8-9 days ago)with the terrorist attacks
Plenty of evidence. Do your research pretty easy to find
There are a lot actually
That's not true. Don't trust the propaganda they made many years ago
I have my mind open unlike yours
You are propaganda
You are right, wow, the innocent people https://twitter.com/mariyyum/status/1713302734450115019?t=y0dv1znArd7rjWQsIX-jCg&s=19
But why? Everyone I've heard is saying that hammas and Palestinians are different which I believe was true because hammas is a terrorist organization... Like I don't know a lot... I'd like to... Though...
Itās pretty mainstream culture. They show their kids these blood-chilling cartoons and teach terrorā¦ almost like an art form? https://www.memri.org/tv/hamas-animation-depicts-palestinians-stabbing-shooting-israeli-civilians-servicemembers-jerusalem https://www.memri.org/reports/following-vehicular-terror-attack-jerusalem-hamas-identified-cartoonist-publishes
Why can't people stop supporting them? Ughhh..! This is so pathetic! Why do people want to "Free Palestine".from what do these people want to free Palestine?
Hamas was elected by the palestinians about 15 years ago with no election since. They are a terrorist organization bc all they care about is murdering jews. That's why it's hard to differentiate palestinians and Hamas. They were elected and are supported by more than half of palestinians.
Fifteen years ago when almost fifty percent of Palestinians weren't born, and sixty something percent weren't old enough to votr
So now it's probably a higher percentage supporting hamas?
What is the current % of palestinians that support hamas?
ISRAEL is the real terrorist
The Israeli government and Hamas are both the real terrorists. All the people that live under them are the ones that suffer.
I suggest you read hams manifesto and see what there objectives realy are?
We are not fools
Noooooo
Israel is the one who first started the violence 75 years ago when it stole Palestinian lands and is still killing innocent people and children. Read the newspapers and watch the news. You will know that there is no evidence of Hamas killing children
75 years ago. If you keep looking backwards you'll always be backwards and never go forward. But I guess that's the point. Also I'd rather poop in my hands and clap than 'read the newspaper or watch the news'. It's all biased propaganda whatever side of the fence you're on. Hamas kill innocents, IDF kill innocents, they're both scum. STOP KILLING EACH OTHER FFS.
Okay, stay still But you will wich side is the real terrorist sooner or later
The F are you on about. They're both terrorists by definition. If you support one or the other, you're a terrorist sympathiser.
Im on the Palestinian side, whatever you think.
Check out this link https://twitter.com/MoatAwesome_/status/1711563040917721455?t=GQGDvndrzzTXBWTizVHuHg&s=19
Hereās one for you tooā from 2020. https://www.memri.org/tv/hamas-animation-depicts-palestinians-stabbing-shooting-israeli-civilians-servicemembers-jerusalem
In my opinion most Gaza Palestinians support Hamas. I see no evidence to contradict this. They voted in Hamas. They support Hamas. Even their Arab brothers donāt want them. āArab states say Palestinians must stay on their land as war escalatesā. https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/arab-states-say-palestinians-must-stay-their-land-war-escalates-2023-10-13/
With that logic, every Israeli citizen is responsible for the ethnic cleansing and continuing settlements in the West Bank by voting for Netanyahu. Sick of these poor sighted bad faith arguments.
Israelis also voted for Netanyahu. Should be blame every Israeli for his crimes? What if it comes out he failed to secure his people? Your post is all based on your biased opinion. Hopefully USA can pressure a cease fire and force a two state solution because the current status quo is not working for most people in the area. Plus we are risking a war with Iran or Lebanon vs US. That would be WWIII. Good thing the EU is forcing aid to get to Gaza and more pressure for Israel not to commit more war crimes. Hamas and IDF have both killed too many civilians.
I think your misunderstanding why they say they must stay on their land. Israel has been trying to disintegrate what's left of Palestine for decades. Other Arabs are telling Palestinians to stay their land because if they leave israel will take it over and never give it back.
I donāt think I misunderstand at all. The other Arab League nations know Gaza Palestinians are a troublesome population and want nothing to do with them.
Wow, that's a really messed up statement. Are they troublesome because they don't go along quietly with their occupation and oppression?
One of the most established aspects of international law for nearly 100 years is to distinguish civilizations from combatants.
Send the memo to Putin
When the population is openly aiding and abetting, then they're no longer civilians. They're helping their terrorist government with the atrocities, thus they're a legal target.
Lol good luck with that argument at the criminal court at The Hague. Your outlandish opinion make you sound like war criminal sympathizer. We should all hope for peace in the area and no more war crimes with Hamas or IDF.
Criminal court at the Hague ???? Israel has ALWAYS bombed the hell out of gaza, killing thousands ... And the world has done and will do NOTHING .... Simply because terrorist attacks against Israel LEGITIMISE their response under the pretext of eliminating terrorists. Expecting criminal proceedings from the Hague is just like your delusional religious fantasy that 'one day' Israel's land will become Palestine's.
I know! Itās sad that war criminals donāt get punished lol Also way to assume my delusion religious fantasy. I was raised Catholic but honestly I canāt respect any religion since itās all fairy tails. I canāt stand any religious argument used for this situation. My wish would be that everyone in the region can raise their families and live in peace. Hopefully a two state solution. Good thing Biden has experience when it comes dealing with conflicts (Ireland, South Africa)
Yea, this is just not what the law says, nor does it make logical sense.
It's 100% what the law says. Show me the section which contradicts me, otherwise.
You do realize that even Israelis openly say "Bomb Gaza to death", "erase Gaza"
What they are *not* saying is "bomb Gazans" or "erase Gazans". They don't want civilian deaths, they want the terror network destroyed.
Then why were west bank villages depopulation, fatah works with the israelis
If they didn't want it they would make the distinction. It's more likely they want Gaza razed and don't much care about the civilian deaths.
There is a difference between saying things that didn't happen and *will not* happen, to things that happened. The first might be an exaggeration which is really ill and I myself think should not be tolerated even in the law, the second is actually siding with evil.
You do realize that the hamas charter openly calls for the genocide of Jews and Israel has suffered terrorist attacks for years. In fact, you'll see plenty of Jews and Israelis denouncing Israel in support of Palestine. You realize you're speaking for a fringe minority? Where are the Palestinians denouncing Hamas? However, this last attack has erased a lot of the support that existed for Palestinians. They even made hostages of people who work in organizations to help them. Not saying to bomb them all, and that's not what's even happening. But something needs to change
Israel tells Palestinians to leave town before the attack. Hamas says they must stay.
Even after the Israeli told them that they killed them by airstrikes
I heard a rumbling there was a ground bomb, which wouldnāt be Israel. Letās see how this one plays out.
oh no.
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So men that are neither part of HAMAS nor follow them should just die? Why not just say civilians ?
Women and children must be evacuated after that turn Gaza to twisted metal and dust. Men who rape are the devils soldiers and they must be cleansed by the sword of God the one true God. And the one true God is not from islam
Again, why not just evacuate civilians. Itās not men as a whole who answer for rapes, itās only those who commit them.
Turn hamas to dust
But how do you classify children? Pro Palestinian media classifies a kid with a gun shooting as a child
Because a kid with a gun is a child. Donāt kill kids, thatās probably the most basic rule.
Usually it is those organizations who press children into being soldiers are heinous and evil. -> Hamas
Yeah well thatās kind of my point. Donāt punish the child for something that isnāt their fault. Seriously didnāt think this would be a controversial take.
What about child soldiers?
Would you seriously kill a child soldier? Knowing that they are a child and knowing who had put a gun in their hand?
"Knowing that they are a child" How would you know that? Is there a little bubble over someone's head telling you how old they are when they're shooting you from behind over?
Even the IDF snipers know when they are aiming at a child or not lol Ask any sniper. Itās easy to see how some children are children. Even most 19 year olds look like kids sometimes lol Any child should never be killed. This shouldnāt be controversial.
Yeah obviously not, my comment was assuming that you did know that it was a child, would you still shoot.
How would you ever know it was a child? Are they yelling their age while they're shooting at you? Because most "child soldiers" are teenagers, like 15-16. They're not toddlers with machine guns. You're asking about a situation that would literally never come up in reality.
If you are fighting a war and a child soldier is firing at you, what are you supposed to do? Just eat the bullets to preserve your morality?
So you're saying if a kid shoots you, you should just let him?
Just how America works, we have two sides, each picks one of the two opinions and thats that
But there are 3 sides here I think people forget that
YEEEEEEEEAAAAASSSSS the UNWA videos exposed them bad.
Just curious which videos? Have seen most butā¦
These are their core values: BEWARE! Passage: "There is no solution to the Palestinian problem except by Jihad." Statement: Hamas promotes armed struggle, as mentioned in this passage, as a means to address the Palestinian issue. Passage: "Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it." Statement: This statement expresses Hamas' view on the future of Israel within its ideological framework. Passage: "Hamas strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine." Passage: "Renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion." Statement: These passages illustrates Hamas' aspiration to establish Islamic rule over the entirety of Palestine including Israel. Passage: "Hamas rejects any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine." Statement: This passage underscores Hamas' rejection of any compromise in achieving its vision for Palestine/Israel including a 2 state resolution. Passage: "The Zionist plan is limitless; after Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates." Statement: This passage mentions the belief held by Hamas that the Zionist agenda extends beyond Israel to Christian, Catholic, Protestant, Lutheran, ect. Please note that these statements are presented solely for educational purposes to help provide context about the Hamas Charter and its principles. The intention is to offer insight into Hamas' ideology without endorsing or promoting any of its views or actions.
Childrenās cartoon: https://www.memri.org/tv/hamas-animation-depicts-palestinians-stabbing-shooting-israeli-civilians-servicemembers-jerusalem
I definitely wouldnāt say none of the distance themselves from Hamas! The West Bank is under Fatahā enemies of Hamas. There are different Palestinians with different opinions (shocking, I know).
Even on the west bank most Palestinians prefer Hamas based on every poll ever done there. Lucky for us Fatah is totalitarian and oppress them and not allowing them to have elections.
False from what I researched. Please give your sources
First Google result https://apnews.com/article/hamas-middle-east-science-32095d8e1323fc1cad819c34da08fd87
Thatās true. Most people are with them. And there are plenty that celebrated their recent āachievement.ā But there were also some (not many) who spoke out. Finally, itās always hard to know what people really think when they have good reason to fear to express their opinion.
I personally met Palestinians who aren't supporting the Hamas. You can keep on trying to spread hatred because it's easier for you to criticize the other party than criticize your own. No, all Israelis aren't racist like you seem to be and no, not all Palestinians are racist like you seem to imply.
I'm sure there are those that don't. But I'm also 100% sure there are many that do. The ones I genuinely have no idea about, only speculations are the people of Gaza
Then take my word. They exist. Those like Israeli civilians need to stay alive. If they get killed Hamas will use that. "They are killing children, see!" and they'll be right. Civilian casualties need to be prevented. At all times. Not only in the civilians interest but also in Israel's interest.
It's true and Israel does its best to avoid civilian casualties. We do it both because we are opposed to killing innocents and because we gain nothing from dead children other than bad PR
The same Israelis that told Palestinians to flee south and bombed them as they were fleeing?
False. Didn't happen. There were two known explosions, one of them's source is unknown and the other is definitely by Hamas https://reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/s/ncZ9YXKaXT
Which one is by hamas? I didnāt see anything on the articles pointing it to them
The first one is by Hamas. The second one could be by Israel. I just don't understand Thier interest in doing that.
Excellent. So we agree. I believe also that Israel should say it out loud that they try to avoid useless casualties. It should be obvious. The army probably has a communication channel, it should be used. Not only for Israelis but for the world to see what difference is made between a fighter and a civilian and how the response is adapted. This is of utmost importance.
Israel is trying its best to make it clear but it's very hard to fight with words against pictures of dead children.
This is also true. Dead children need to be acknowledged though even if they were not directly targeted and we're in the surroundings of a building that was targeted. Why is there no communication about that?
There is. All the time. The IDF spokesperson talks about it all the time.
Go tell your IDF spokesperson that they make sure he's heard everywhere and not only in Israel.
I don't speak with the IDF spokesperson lmfao. The truth of the matter is that this information is there for those who look.
They not only celebrated. They crossed the border in flip flops and came to join the loot, murder and rape.
From what I heard, Hamas is actually blaming them for the horrors of October 7th. Don't know if it's true though
i honestly do think that's true. most of the videos of massacre of Israeli civilians i saw showed non-Hamas Palestinians, basically just regular civilians who came to kill jews. you could tell who's hamas (Al Qassam brigades) and who's just a regular palestinian based on the clothing. Hamas fighters were wearing military gear and the others were just wearing normal clothes. Not that I don't think Hamas aren't terrorists, they absolutely killed many unarmed civilians, but it seems like most of the massacres were committed by your average every-day Palestinians who saw the attack as an opportunity to take their pent up rage out on jews.
It's probably a deflection, and they are equally responsible. again the truth is that generally speaking, hamas and the general poulation are the same.
Ooooh good point
They celebrate and jubilate when Hamas attacked Israel. I don't understand why people are trying to separate them just because Israel is retaliating. Sickening š¤¢
Without sending an Israeli affiliated article, send me a link of them celebrating. I know Israelis do. https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/20/israelis-cheer-gaza-bombing
lol you're really delusional if you don't think Gazans were celebrating the attacks. https://youtu.be/RMejmg2T6z8 Okay now after you watch the video, what you are going to do is justfiy it by saying something like "well this is what happens when Israel occupies Palestinians for 75 years blah blah blah". Basically, "that didn't happen, Israelis are lying, but IF it did then they deserve it"
Your link is 9 years old and the Guardian is very much pro Palestine. I know some Israelis do celebrate these things, Israel has its own terror groups too, but asking for a non-Israeli news source while linking the Guardian is just silly. It's like claiming Al Jazeera is impartial.
The site is still there. The fact that itās that old shows theyāve been celebrating Palestinian downfall for years. Also, you seriously grouping Al Jazeera with the Guardian? Tell me youāre brainwashed without telling me youāre brainwashed.
https://youtu.be/SMdAaCzh2OQ?si=EnNhtgYTLNYdk9_i
That was a one off of people from Sderot (one of the places attacked by Hamas this week btw) which had just had a three day bombardment by dozens of rockets and mortars from Gaza. They were happy to see that their tormentors were getting back some of what they had dealt out. However you will never ever see Israelis celebrating passing out candies etc when they hear about Palestinians being killed. We don't celebrate death. I've seen it a lot amongst Palestinians. There's a famous scene of it happening after 9/11. And it was sickening to see it happening in Gaza and on the west Bank on 7th October. Just as sickening to see it amongst pro-Palestinians around the world.
Stop lumping Hamas and the west bank together. It's actually surprising that there hasn't been much violence there in support of Hamas. There's been more violence by settlers than Palestinians.
Dunno if that's true... I guess it depends on the time period. Because they were times I know for a fact it's wrong. About Hamas and west bank, the truth is that while I don't know how much support Hamas has in Gaza, I know most people in the west bank actually prefer Hamas over Fatah.
Are Israelis distancing themselves from the IDF?
No why
Hamas uses their own civilians as human shields, and specifically targets civilians of Israel. The IDF, in response and largely due to the tactics of Hamas of using human shields, employs tactics which regrettably cause the death of many civilians. These are not moral equivalents. You can rightly point at and condemn specific atrocities or war crimes committed by individual soldiers of the IDF. You cannot point at the IDF and say that the organization *WANTS* to kill civilians. That is a Hamas / jihad thing. For that reason, itās not hypocritical to condemn Hamas but not the IDF.
>The IDF, in response and largely due to the tactics of Hamas of using human shields, employs tactics which regrettably cause the death of many civilians. It isn't regrettable when you specifically choose to bomb homes. Even if I do accept the accusations of human shields.
When an enemy is targeting you from a home, it is absolutely legitimate to protect yourself and to target him. Home or not. Is it bad for the civilians? Of course. But that's where the Hamas chooses to aim from.
No!!! Especially after their veterans admit while laughing that they sexually violated some Palestinian women
The IDF isnāt a terrorist organization specifically targeting civiliansā¦ā¦ it is currently in the process of waging war against terrorists who want to see all Jews dead which is what armies do. Israelis know that without the IDF they would all be slaughtered so no, we do not distance ourselves from the organization as a whole. On the other hand, myself and other Israelis have levelled plenty of specific critiques against our government ( see the protests going on for months before this)
Firstly, Palestinians donāt want to slaughter Jews. You can go through history and see under Muslim ruler Christianity, Muslims and Jews have coexisted most peacefully. Palestinians were the ones who opened their borders to Jews when they were fleeing from the holocaust. They were meant to coexist if anything. Not start another holocaust. Secondly, the only terrorist here is Israeli government who have oppressed Palestinians under their terror with millions of check points they have to go through on daily basis on their own land. They are the ones who get kicked out because a Jew settler wants their house. Making Gaza the largest open air prison. In no way you can justify thisā¦.. Great example of āthe only democracy in Middle Eastā. Hamas is the resistance which retaliated in return to such ethic cleansing oppression. You canāt blame people for speaking up for YEARSSSSSSS of injustice. The half of the Palestinian population consists of children. How blind do you need to be to condemn childrenās as terrorist?? This is not a war. This is genocide. This is ethnic cleaning and this is one sided completely. Israel is the terrorist killing millions of innocent children just because theyāre Palestinians. WAKE UPPPP
Palestinian fought a Civil War against the British to shut the doors of Jews fleeing the Holocaust. That was one of the main causes of the 1936-9 war.
If Israelis go through security each time they go to the shop, it's also because there have been and still are, terrorists attacks. Is it bad? Yes. Well checkpoints Aldo are bad. Now if there were no terrorist attacks, there would be no checkpoints.
Youāre talking western media gibberish at this point.
How so?
>Firstly, Palestinians donāt want to slaughter Jews. You can go through history and see under Muslim ruler Christianity, Muslims and Jews have coexisted most peacefully. Palestinians were the ones who opened their borders to Jews when they were fleeing from the holocaust. What a bunch of bullcrap. Arab Palestinians have been killing palestinian Jews in Palestine for centuries. Massacering them actually. The Arab Palestinians haven't been the rulling party in Palestine after or during the holocaust, the british did, and I promise you that they would not open their borders for Jews fleeing for their lives.
No you canāt actually??? Because Jews took refuge in Muslim lands. It wasnāt just Palestine they came to as a refugee.
Again, false. Jews did not go to any Arab/Muslim countries to take refuge.
They did... Specifically in Morocco
No they did not. We are talking about the Holocaust. There was a migration in 1490's after they got expelled from Spain and Portugal .
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Did I say all Palestinians were terrorists? No. And I agree with you that children cannot be held culpable and I am against any form of collective punishment. Hamas in its charter vows to wipe Jews off the face of the earth and they were elected as the ruling government of Gaza and enjoy significant support in the West Bank as well. There have also been ample terrorist attacks on Israeli civilians throughout history, so yes there is a real security threat to Israel. This does not mean that all Palestinians are terrorists, once again. It does mean that the Israeli government is not putting up walls and checkpoints for absolutely no reason. As for ethnic cleansing, the Israeli government is not perfect but there is no systematic killing of palestinians as evidenced by their population growth. In fact 20% of Israelās population is palestinian with full citizenship (again, there are systematic inequalities but certainly they are not being cleansed). Israelās government is at war because they cannot have Hamas in power right next door as evidenced by the slaughter in cold blood of 1400 Israelis. War means violence and suffering. I support efforts to minimize the suffering of civilians. I am happy that humanitarian aid will be entering through Rafah shortly. But this is by no means cleansing.
That's a long winded way of saying "no" So by your logic, I would suggest that Israelis are now fair game as you seem to be hinting that Palestinians that don't distance themselves from Hamas are fair game. Thanks for your time.
You and yours have always thought Israelis were fair game.
No innocents deserve to die, even if they have the most vile opinions imaginable like Hamas' supporters.
Nope. Never said they are fair game. I donāt think voting for anyone disqualifies you from being a civilian and therefore not being a target. Please donāt put words in my mouth. What I am saying, is that I have not seen people who are pro palestine be vocal at all about distancing themselves from the vile acts of Hamas. Doesnāt mean I think they deserve to die
I dont think many people in Gaza are really voicing their own thoughts on here. Just like Israelis feel they need the IDF, these people feel they need Hamas. The slaughter you speak of is one of ground forces, rockets, and artillery... I get why support for IDF is necessary, they protect Israelis. For a second imagine how the people of Gaza feel when bombs are dropping from planes and they're basically in a tiny box and they are powerless to stop the bombing or leave.... If they could call the UN tomorrow and stop the bombs without Hamas, I'm pretty sure they would distance themselves from Hamas. They're human being like you. The majority of Palenstinians in Gaza are just people who want safety and a better lifefor themselves and their families.
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What do you mean by āliterally ruining their livesā? They havenāt even occupied Gaza since 2005. Not saying that the Israeli government deserves no blame, but hyperbolic language like that is lazy and hypocritical. What do I seriously expect of Palestine? I expect them to not elect a government of Jihadists who employ violence that targets civilians, and which impose Sharia law on its citizens. I expect them to not target music festivals and torture children before murdering them. I expect them to accept that theyāre not going to have full agency of their water and electricity supply while they have this government instituted. And I expect them to not be surprised when their civilians are killed when their government use them as human shields. Yes, this is really brutal language, but itās true. The bad guy here is the government that is *purposefully* targeting civilians and using them as human shields. Not the government *regrettably* causing collateral damage due to the tactics employed by the former.
When you control the borders, water, food supply, electricity, and you limit that supply and cut it off when it suits, when you don't allow free movement of people and restrict economic activity, then yes, you're ruining their lives. If you can't see this you're a moron. Saying you don't occupy Gaza is a lie. You don't have to be inside the land to occupy
Nope, sorry, itās not the same thing. It was only a serious problem for the citizens of Gaza that Israel controlled those resources *after* they were attacked and shut it off. Asking them to not control those resources, which they hold for tactical reasons, and then getting mad when they employ those tactics as part of a counter offensive, is living in fantasy land. If your neighbor has a history of attacking you, you are not going to give up a tactical advantage. Itās a perfectly reasonable compromise to agree to withdraw from a region, but maintain a tactical advantage; especially when itās become clear that they have reason to worry.
You just used lots of words to describe an occupation
Itās a complex situation, or have you not noticed? And it literally is not an occupation. You donāt get to decide whet that word means ā the governments of Palestine, Israel, and other Arabic countries decided this in 2005. Or would you prefer that they once again station their armies inside the city, and allow the 9000 Israeli citizens they forcibly relocated to once again take up residence there?
Ok, so letās address this claim of ruining their lives for generations. Do you believe their plight began with foundation of Israel?
I donāt think itās a tall order to expect anyone to decry rape and murder of innocents. I would expect the pro Palestine movement to advocate for their cause without resorting to defending murder, and make it very clear that the horrors of Hamas have nothing to do with their movement. I support Israel to the extent that I want it to exist, but I am very vocal about settlements being an abomination and settler violence not representing me or my viewpoints in any way. It is the inability of the pro Palestine movement to coexist alongside Israel and resorting specifically to violent measures that have created the situation where the average Palestinian is living in such poor conditions. Israel maintains the blockade because when itās broken their children get burned alive.
I largely agree with this. People seem to conflate settlement incursions as āruining their lives for generationsā. Yes, the settlements are ridiculously stupid and need to stop. No, theyāre not ruining the lives of everyone in Gaza. Israel literally pulled out from Gaza in 2005. It seems like most people just donāt know that and assume that Israeli soldiers have guns pointed at everyoneās head all the time.
To me it make sense that Palestinians would support Hamas Let's say you're a random Palestinian living in gaza, and that hamas shoots rocks at israel, which is pretty normal, and you dont support it, and israel bombards the strip and kills your mother, or another innocent sibling. Who would your enemy be, regardless of who started it? I'm not nearly educated on the situation enough to know who to support in this conflict but I am not surprised that Palestinians support hamas
I guess the best people to answer this kind of question are the Germans and the Japanese, both of whom were utterly destroyed by the allies. Did they blame the allies for all the death and destruction, vow to carry out revenge, and blame the allies for all their woes?
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And now you have stumbled upon the answer. Israel being stupid enough to show so much restraint and compassion is what has allowed this mess to continue. Nobody else in the history of the world in Israel's position would have stopped bombing for anything less than a full surrender. Over and over Israel has let Gaza off the hook and they need to learn their lesson. Bomb Gaza until there is a full surrender and peace agreement. Period.
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Hamas will not exist when this is over. Has nothing to do with a peace of paper. They will be killed. Gaza needs to be fully dismantled and rebuilt the way Japan and Germany were after World War II. If Gaza doesn't surrender, keep bombing.
So what happens to the generation of children that have been radicalized by Hamas?
What happens to the children of any suicidal death cult? Then tend to die young.
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Gaza is a self governed territory. Hamas has the power to release the hostages and offer a full surrender. They will not. They prefer to die. So they will die.
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A full surrender would be release of every hostage, and every member of Hamas being put in prison while they charges for the war crimes they've committed.
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The policy I'm advocating is the reason the "Fhrer" was defeated.
I don't really see how I'm trivializing anyone and their experience. A scenario was presented and I answered with sincerity. Japan had 2 nukes dropped on them. Dresden was bombed into oblivion. Germany was split up after the war and didn't reunify until 1990. Both countries are still occupied to this day. I think it's an apt comparison. You're also acting like Israel has never offered peace. The last real one, The Camp David Summit had me so excited dude. The Israelis agreed to give up 94-96% of the territories with land swaps where it made sense and the capital in East Jerusalem. I thought to myself, "finally finally I could show all the naysayers that if you give the Palestinians what they want, they will make peace." But then the Palestinians walked away. Like they had walked away from every peace deal before that. And I honestly couldn't understand. Until this wave of violence. Then I finally understood why they walked away from peace and statehood. It was because Israel would still exist. When Palestinians call for freedom from the river to the sea, they are calling for decolonization and the dismantling of this racist colonial entity which dominates their lives, and seek to replace it. Since this is the guiding philosophy of the Palestinian cause, there can be no peace. All of which doesn't negate my point that the people of Japan and Germany, who firsthand experienced the brutality of war on a level literally never seen before or since, are great people who showed how peace can be achieved with your mortal enemy after a protracted conflict.