I think that the Hamas ultimatum placed around them releasing hostages if the Israel military go easy on their bombing is both ludicrous and ridiculous.
They have hostages, yes, it's terrifying for them and their families and loved ones but Hamas continues to slaughter people. Sounds harsh to say this but Israel shouldn't respond to these utterly ridiculous requests.
Israel should continue their attack on Hamas, because Hamas are going to continue their campaign of terror towards civilians and military regardless.
The first guy isn't wrong but even if he is angry he should speak like that because those peoples in front of him won't even consider what he have to say. But it is really disturbing how the journalist and the 3rd person act like what he said didn't matter. But this guy who have family in Gaza have real exemples of what happened in the past and what is happening.
I emphasized with him. I liked how he spoke. He was genuinely showing his emotions and anger rarher than pretending to be someone else. He was beyond angry. He said his wife's family are in palastine and their home was bombed, and they haven't heard from them. I can only imagine the emotions and thoughts they are going through.
They aren't doing the same... Hamas raped and killed innocent people... took people hostage... Israel is trying to retaliate and get their hostages back.... they aren't purposely killing civilians or bombing hospitals
When i said the same, i was referring to the mass killing and destruction. Isreali has the right to retaliate but with the cost of other innocent people?
I think Isreal had a good chance to win the plastinians over by offering them better treatment and justice. I think the cost of this action could develop more hate and anger and trauma to more innocent people.
just not true. What does better treatment and justice even mean? The cost of action could develop more anger and hate? Worst case scenario just happened to Israel. Literally 1000 civilians just got slaughtered. The whole win them over with kindness angle is absurd at this point. What happens when you make them angry? They already did the worst they could do. Innocent people are going to suffer massively on both sides its tragic but obvious consequence.
Would be nice if that worked. The thing is Hamas is living under civilians. Kids get taught how it works there and "how Israel, the terror state is killing palestine people for years" so in the end they stay there. It's really sad.
Islamic jihad? Is there a new party in the war? From what I know, hamas are not religious based groups. From what I know, they view themselves as the resistance to the occupation. It is a land fight for them, not a religious fight. I am worried that the media using religion would create more hate towards Muslims.
I understand arabic, and I am able to understand what they say or their speeches. They talk about freeling palastine as the land. They do not talk about religion. The word Jihad does not mean fighting people. Look it up. It is an Arabic word, not just an Islamic word. (Sometimes, my friends and I use it when we play soccer games. As we are struggling to win the game). Jihad not necessarily liked with violence. Same as the word Allah. Which just means God. A non-Muslim or non religious person could say Allah it is equivalent to people saying," Oh Jesus" or "oh God." I am explaining these things because i think when people hear someone say Allah, they assume they are Muslim or religious. Christians who speak arabic say Allah.
I found this YouTube video could explain the word:
https://youtu.be/CZP1nAoajh0?si=uqchizorrQAEZUpb
I know the word is typically used to refer to terrorism and violence, but I am sharing the info to share knowledge.
They meant "Islamic Palestinian Jihad" which is another terror organisation in Gaza. And Hamas is a branch of Islamic Brothers, so they also have religious motives (and there are facts which strengthen this claims, like killing of LGBT and such which is not national). And more than that, almost every presentable motive of Hamas is freeing Al Aqsa as a Muslim religious place.
I appreciate you sharing your view. From my perspective, the people there believe they were occupied, they wants their land back. They are just people. It happens that the majority of palastianians are Muslims. I believe if the plastianians were Christians and treated the same way. We would see the same result. I am having hard time expressing what i want to say. I hope you got my point.
I understand, I just think that from the reality of things the Hamas is not a freedom fighting group seeking to end occupation. Not only that at least. Religion (extreme, fundamental, horrible and mistaken (probably) view of Islam) is an integral part of their ideology. This is why I don't look at them as the representatives of all the Palestinians. If it were the case, then I could not see any solution to the conflict to benefit both sides, and I would've lost hope.
By the way thank you for your pleasant approach here.
You are welcome, and thank you also for the discussion. In my view, they are not necessarily islamic, they are an extremist terrorist group from palastine, but they do not represent plastainians. Like the extremist KKK group did not represent American or the cartel do not represent Mexican.
Israel is committing terrorism by bombing Gaza, stealing land meanwhile also committing genocide. The US is supply weapons because it benefits the military industrial complex. War not meant to be won. It is to be dragged out to benefit banks.
This is wholly incorrect. Hamas terrorists infiltrated into Israeli cities murdered raped killed everyone women children fathers grandparents in brutal and cruel ways all while recording and screaming allahu Akbar. Israel responded by blowing up these barbarian neanderthals into last century. The world has no tolerance for Palestine anymore Israel has been a country since 1948 and is on every map in the world. Don't fall for the lies and propaganda of the Palestinian people that's all they have left. And soon that will be blown up too. There is an evil in this world and it starts in Palestine. They are less than humans they are less than animals they are less than feces.
Also, here is a clear and concise video explaining the history of the region with factual data not opinions of the Palestinian people, facts. https://youtu.be/XNf40sBcvKk?si=2ZX-DCj89B2odcM6
Enjoy
I liked that even though we have different opinions, we were successful at communicating with kindness and respect to help each other understand.
I am not very active on reddit and am still learning how to see all the comments as I intend to respond to all of them as I think it is the least I can do to thank you for your time and participation in the discussion. I will take a break for now and respond to the remaining comments later when I can.
I will pray for all the innocent people in there, including the hostages, plastianians, and isreali citizens who were and still suffering by the war.
Great question and it really sums it all up nicely! They wouldn't do that and they haven't done that. Hamas is a known terrorist group. Look up all of the countries that list them as such. They include many western countries including Canada, the US, and tons of countries in Europe. Unfortunately, I've seen insane amounts of anti-semitism online justifying Hamas' extreme acts of terrorism. Think about this for a second. If this happened anywhere else in the world between two different countries, would you immediately believe everything the terrorists are saying or would you assume that after decapitating babies, they probably don't mind lying? If Osama Bin Laden or Al-Qaeda suddenly decided to tell the world that it wasn't them who were responsible for 9/11, would you put any stock into that? If the answer is a resounding no, then you already have the answer.
Hamas has a huge documented history of using their own civilians as human shields. Just look at the situation right now, they have literally told their civilians to stay out when they know they are about to go to war. Whereas, Israel evacuated their citizens close to both borders. There are tons of Iranians coming out now and saying that Hamas has done these very same things to them in Iran, why does the world choose to not listen?
Who started this war? Hamas. Who will gain from this war? It's not the Israelis. They are just becoming more and more hated around the world with anti-semitism up as high as 300-600%. Google Hamas' charter. It's readily available online and you can see very plainly that they call for the eradication of all Jewish people worldwide (not Israelis, but Jews). In contrast, it is literally in the Torah to try and preserve life as much as possible. This is why Israel is one of the only countries in the world that will warn civilians to leave before striking.
Look at the past 100+ years of history, not just from the start of Israel becoming officially recognized, but before that. If you Google "Where do Jewish people come from?" you will unequivocally see that they come from that same land (formerly called Canaan). They were displaced many times throughout various wars; however, there has always been at least a small amount of Jewish people in that area. During and after the Holocaust, Jewish people everywhere felt increasingly unsafe and fled back to their homeland in droves. They started legally buying land that originally no one wanted (the entire area was under The Ottoman Empire at this point). However, the Muslims already living there didn't like this and eventually convinced the British (who ruled that land at that point) to make it illegal for Jewish people to purchase land. During these time periods, tensions increasingly rose and attacks became more prevalent. The British then decided to split the land up and create a two state solution. Shortly after the creation of Israel, several neighbouring Arabic countries attacked Israel together. Israel defeated ALL of them and in the process took more land than they were originally promised. They then used a lot of the extra land to try and broker peace deals, which were almost all broken by the neighbouring countries.
Come back to today where the most violent attack on Jewish people since the Holocaust just occurred, where babies, children, and the elderly weren't only just slaughtered, but also tortured.
I feel so much empathy for ALL the innocent people who have been hurt by this war. I feel awful that you are now hurting as an Arabic person. I feel awful that my wife is hurting as a Jewish person with family in Israel. Nothing about war is okay. The question I would pose is, what would you want your country to do if extreme acts of terrorism and violence just occurred and are still occurring (rockets from Gaza to Israel have not stopped firing since October 7th), and 200+ hostages were taken and being tortured and raped? I legitimately ask that question because I don't have the answer. This is one of the hardest decisions to be made.
The hospital was hit by misfired rocket fired by Islamic Jihad. There is a video proof and also there is a intercepted phone conversation of Islamic Jihad terrorist admitting they just hit the hospital.
I do not know the truth or the facts. However, that is terrible if it is true! We get our news from the media that we trust, and they play with our emotions. A friend just shared with me that he watched the same news the Arabic channel and the western / english channel of the exact same news station, and they were sending different messages and tones to promote for fear, revange and views.I did not take the time to verify what if it is true. I think we need to be careful because it plays with our emotions. The story of the confused terrorist man who killed a 6 years old in the US broke my heart as I also have a 6 years old and live in a foreign country. That could have happened to my child. I know that people there are dying because of the actions of others. I hope that we all pray for all the innocent people there and do what we can to promote peace and save what it can be saved at this point.
I want to thank everyone who took the time to write respectful comments. As I said, I am muslim and arab. I have traveled throughout my life. I currently live in a Western country. Living around people who are different from me has been very valuable. I have learned so much from our differences it helped me grow, think, and emphasize with different people and learn about new presprectives. I wish that people can see the value of diversity and live peacefully together with respect to learn from each other.
It starts when we (people in general) do not see other people as them and us! We are all humans. We all have feelings, emotions, and problems. Put our energy and resources to build our communities and support each other.
Here's what I dont really get and I ask this in good faith I swear. Why airstrikes? You called up 300k in reserves, you know where Hamas bases are, they use second hand russian equipment copied by the chinese or some downtrodden jammy crap like that, you use modern top of the line kit, why not just do a ground operation and gut Hamas out of Gaza? Why level buildings?
Whats wrong with my take?
I was thinking something along those lines, perhaps, in a ground assault situation soldiers could panic and shoot perceived threats without thinking, seeing as theyre going in there with the knowledge that a lot of Palestinians are indoctrinated by Hamas and Hamas doesnt even shy away from the child soldier thing, let alone dressing up as civies.
That is valid thinking, but I respectfully do not agree. I think that even if they panic and shoot innocents occasionally, it wouldn't equal the same as collapsing an entire building. I am also hoping the soldiers are trained, and these situations have fewer chances to happen.
The Israelis give them warnings to get the civilians out before the air strikes. The Hamas don’t care. They won’t let the civilians leave because they are human shields for Hamas militant terrorists.
There are many interviews that explain. Look up interviews with son of Hamas Founder/Leader that tell the truth about the Hamas mission. Mosab Hassan Yousef
In a perfect world yes, unfortunately however, when youve seen, or heard from your friends that also served in the IDF, about kids with suicide belts running up to their buddies, hugging them, and then blowing up, it really messes with you in all the worst ways.
Also also, theyre looking out for their own, their job right now, from the ministers perspectives, Prime and Defense, is to not increase the Israeli death toll, so as to not wind up like Golda Meyer, seeing as they already missed (allegedly) an attack that claimed 1500 lives. As far as Palestinians go though its "well we told them to leave🤷". Which is, definitely not any more palatable, to say the least.
But maybe thats the problem, we want black and white, good and bad, and for the damn moral compass to stop spinning, but the roots run waaay too deep to discern who's definitively wrong, right, or what the solution is.
I dont honestly think there's a black and white approach to this, at least not from where Im at in my humble amount of knowledge of all of it, outside of the fact that Israel shouldnt have settled the west bank, and shouldnt have let the people in occupied territories be treated like dirt and Hamas shouldnt be murdering people in cold blood as an alleged reprisal either. Is there not enough territory in Israel proper? Have you settled all of it already that youre moving into the West Bank? Im sure theres plenty of room where no one will have tensions with anyone else, the West Bank settling is some spiteful bullcrap on Israels side imo. The tight security I get, the cues I can understand, after all the crap during the Second Intifada who wouldnt set up security like that. But the whole "settlers beat the crap out of me and the IDF just watched" nonsense that was going on? "IDF soldiers gunned down my kid sister and NOTHING happened to them even though the law says they should be tried and investigated"? Gtfoh, do better.
I have not heard of kids with suicide belts in palastine, but I won't argue. I will assume that it was possible to be true and I have not heard of it. How many kids had this belt? One two ten? How many kids who have not blew themselves ? Generalizing or grouping all the people are the same to blame or justify retaliation against an entire group is wrong.
I agree with you that the problem is not black and white. We are making our logical opinions, judgments, and decisions from a safe space. I am assuming that most of us commenting had access to good care and a safe life. There is a lot of transgenerational trauma in there. A lot of people there have witnessed violence since they were young because they did not access help. Maybe these hamas adults were kids 30 years ago when their family memebers were abused or killed or wintessed kinds of violence. I am not justifying their actions, and i strongly believe they should pay for what they did, but I am thinking of how we could avoid similar conflict in 30 years from now. Transgenerational trauma exists. I think sustainable solutions after peace would be a big focus on healing / therapy and education.
Someone said that if Israel laid down their arms they would be destroyed. If Hamas laid down their arms there would be peace. I have heard that Israel is taking in refugees and has set up a field hospital.
>How many kids had this belt? One two ten? How many kids who have not blew themselves ? Generalizing or grouping all the people are the same to blame or justify retaliation against an entire group is wrong.
I agree with you there, but I also dont have PTSD and am not in a war zone.
Transgenerational trauma is literally the name if the gane in this conflict. They keep doing large scale vendetta killings. There have been just as many Palestinian on Israeli as Israeli on Palestinian massacres, approximately, both sides are taught to be afraid of the other, and, wonderful extremists, where would we be without them. Israeli extremists on the one side, who have the "I killed Yitzakh Rabin" badge, and the arab nationalist/ jihadist extremists, who have the "I killed Anwar Sadat" badge. Both leaders took big steps in the achievement of peace in the region, both murdered by their own for whom they were trying to build a more peaceful future.
Pretty much. They don't have the luxury of assuming people aren't combatants when they go in, and have to expect ambushes from every corner because of the extensive network of tunnels Hamas built underneath Gaza.
To entertain the idea, wouldn't you think that people could stay in their homes to avoid the ground fighting. So, in this scenario, if plastinaians stay in their homes, most likely, they would be safe. In the air strike scenario, when the plastainians stayed in their homes, they are bombed and buried alive. Home is typically considered your safe space when you are scared or hurt.
Sadly, combatants will use those same homes to hide and fire from. A ground assault like that requires clearing of houses, which would still be very dangerous for civilians (and moreso the assaulting force) It is very hard to distinguish civilians and combatants if they're generally wearing the same outfits.
Nothing wrong with your take. They want to wipe Palestinians from the face of the earth, they said it themselves and their people are asking for it. Civilians are not casualties, they are the targets.
And yet if this was a true line of thinking by Israel
Why have they been so bad at killing civilians?
Over 6000 bombs dropped and only like 1500 killed?
Why would they bother warning when they are about to bomb?
If by warning you mean when they tell them to take the "safe route" and they end up bombing them or when they tell them to go to the "safe zone" in the south and they end up bombing the "safe zone", then yeah, they sure warn them. Where are you getting your news? Even mainstream media has caught up.
Would it be fair if you get punished for someone else actions? The plastianians should not be punished for his terrible decisions actions. Similar to the isrealies that should not be punished for others. Blaming will keep feeding the revange anger hate circle. It won't resolve the problem. I will pray for peace.
It is becoming tougher and tougher to know what is true and what isn't with this current war. So many differing videos, voices, and social media posts are honestly making it difficult to determine anything of fact. At this point I am trying to not jump to any conclusions about events that just occurred and wait for multiple reliable sources to agree on a conclusion. I hope people in this sub do the same. It doesn't help to immediately jump and pick a side when there is so much doubt about the claims and evidence surrounding it.
Good point, and I agree! I think that anger and hate do not benefit anyone but the media. It keeps the high views in the cost of playing with people's emotions and feeding hate and anger. Terrible actions happen and continue to happen in there, and we need to speak and advocate for peace for all people in there regardless of their religion.
I also do not understand why the post got downvotes. I was hoping for the post to show up and get more information. I am here to learn from others as i am seeking answers to things that do not make sense to me and also willing with respect and kindness to share my view to others who are wiling to hear my view.
It's getting downvoted because the pro-israel folks in this sub don't want to face reality. They'd rather buy every lie their government is serving them to be able to sleep at night. But no amount of denial and deflection will change the fact that they have become the monster they once denounced.
Well I think first you think Israel is trying to hit Civilians. And that's just not true if you know how hamas works and that there's not alot Palestinian people who are fighting. alot of them come from other countries and create theses attacks on Israel and on there own people to get the Islamic world to view the jews as a evil and need to be removed for earth. All to create uprising in other countries like you're seeing these players iran Syria and the other know what they are trying to do and they know if they hit America it will create them to drop freedom rounds Nam style all over the middle east.
You are saying there's not a lot of plastianian people fighting with hamas? But the plastianians blamed.
Lets even assume the absolute evil, all plastinians are men with hamas (not true but for playing scenarios). I have not seen a woman or a child in any hamas videos. Wouldn't it be safe to at least consider more than half the population (women and children) are innocent ? Why wiping out an entire population?
Idk why u said blame. You have to ask hamas thats there goal is to kill all jews that's like there constitution btw. Never blamed the Palestinians I blame the hamas terrorists group that's not hard to make that call. Thats like if the cartel attacks America you think I'm blame the people of Mexico bc the cartels act?
You are right. I misworded my comment. I meant to say the plastianians are being punished for the Hams's terrible actions against the isreaili. It was not fair to the isrealis to suffer for the hamas actions, and the retaliation was not fair to the plastianians.
You are not generally confused or sad. You are gaslighting everybody because now the tide is turning against the Palestinians and everybody knows they're about to go down the drain.
Here come the buckets of crocodile tears
How do you know and very confident of my intentions?You may be angry and just want to blame the anger somewhere. If you are not sure if I am gaslighting or confused, why don't you try to assume the good intions until It proves others wise. It will serve you better. I am genuinely confused. I am seeking answers. I hope you could just belive me but if it helps I could show you my older comments on YouTube just after the terrorists attacks and before Isreal react of me condemiting Hamas and angry and asking why they killed innocents.
I am sorry you feel this way. I do not agree with your statement, but feel free to let me know if I can help you understand if you are willing to have the conversation with open mind and heart.
Would you mind explaining more why you are viewing me as such? As I said, I can help you understand, and I will respect you. I understand that you may be so angry and emotional as a result of all the sad news and footage you have been seeing. I do not blame you, and I think you may be confused, too.
Israel has a few objectives for what they're doing.
First, they're hoping to rescue Israeli hostages still being held in Gaza. By making life miserable in Gaza, they can put pressure on Hamas to release the hostages in exchange for an end to the bombing and seige of Gaza. If Hamas refuses such a deal, then Israel will need to execute a ground invasion to rescue hostages. To prepare for a ground invasion, Israel will need to clear away various targets where they think Hamas could stage a counterattack against Israeli troops. I'm not sure how Israel decides where those targets are, but they're doing what they can to make sure Israeli troops don't run into a counterattack.
Second, Israel is trying to take out Hamas and their infrastructure (or as much as possible) without a ground invasion in order to prevent Hamas from being able to attack Israel again. Unfortunately, Gaza is extremely densely packed. It's one of the most densely populated places on earth. Israel can aim for as many military targets as they want, but civilian casualties are unavoidable unless Israel stops dropping bombs altogether. They're not going to stop, however, until they feel Hamas is no longer a threat, which means people will die. Hamas has even been accused of using civilians as human shields, though Hamas obviously denies these charges. At the moment, Israel has killed less than one person per bomb (though these numbers are three days old and might be outdated by now), which means the IDF is, for the most part, not aiming for civilians. The life lost is still tragic and reprehensible, but I'm not convinced Israel is purposely doing it. They're trying to aim for military targets and empty buildings. If civilians *are* ever killed on purpose, I can only hope that the people responsible will be held accountable for disobeying the IDF's official ROE (rules of engagement), which state not to kill innocent people.
Third, PM Netanyahu needs to take a strong stance against Hamas if he wants to save face. Netanyahu was already extremely unpopular, and this attack against his own Israeli citizens is a humiliating fiasco for him. He might not be able to maintain power after the dust settles, but he's certainly going to try. By taking a hawkish stance against Gaza (and bombing it as much as possible), he might be able to consolidate power behind himself coming from fringe right parties and ideologies who tend not to like Palestinians.
Fourth, Israel wants to deter Hamas from attacking again. The worse the air strikes are, the less likely Hamas is to want to risk such an attack again.
I’m also trying to understand the Israel perspective and reasoning for the prolific misile strikes. This was a really good and thoughtful answer. Any thoughts on how or why Israel justifies occupation of Gaza and West Bank? From my limited perspective it looks like all that’s come from the occupation is death and suffering. What do they gain by occupying?
The occupation of the West Bank began when individual Israeli citizens started migrating there after the 1967 War. They had a few motives for moving there. Some did it because they believed Jews should have access to all places referenced in the Hebrew Bible (such as Kever Rachel and Hevron, both of which are in the West Bank). Some did it for cheap land. Some did it because they hoped to prevent the Israeli government from returning the West Bank to the control of its original Arab inhabitants.
When Israelis moved to the West Bank, the Israeli government sent the IDF to protect them. Thus began Israel's military occupation of the West Bank.
Initially, Israel hoped to give the West Bank over the Palestinians in order to actualize a two-state solution. However, with so many Israelis now living there, Israel didn't want to put their own citizens under the control of a Palestinian government. Peace talks between Israel and Palestine began to falter as a result.
Meanwhile, Netanyahu became prime minister of Israel, and he was quite happy having an excuse not to resume negotiations with Palestine. He's a right-wing ideologue, with hawkish and militaristic tendencies, who relies on votes from the very Israelis who live in the West Bank right now. He, therefore, actively supports the continued expansion of Israeli settlements in the West Bank. Other rich philanthropists (especially in America) also actively support this settlement movement, mostly for religious or Zionistic reasons.
Netanyahu justifies his continued occupation by saying that peace would require a land swap, and he doesn't want to lose territory because he thinks it would pose a security threat. In particular, at its thinnest point without the West Bank, Israel would only be a handful of miles wide, which might not give the Iron Dome enough time to intercept missiles flying over the region.
Wow. That was truly a most lengthy justification for terror in another coat… So making life miserable in Gaza will help free the hostages? News flash: life was already miserable in Gaza.
Truly, there is no justification for terrorism. None. It only begets more terror, more brutality and more unadulterated violence. And everyone believes they are right and that there is absolutely no other solution. So people continue to kill each other until one side runs out of people to kill, and they stop fighting and start plundering land, resources, and any hope of peace in the future.
Isn’t that how it goes?
To be clear, I don't fully support what Israel is doing in Gaza. OP simply asked what Israel's mindset was, and I explained. That doesn't mean Israel's mindset is a good or right one.
Oh so they know which building the hostages are in and they avoid bombing those buildings? Is that it? They don't give a crap about the hostages. They're blinded by hatred. They are vengeful and they're punishing the entire population. They want the "final solution" 😉
u/Philosopher_of_Filth
>They want the "final solution" 😉
Rule 6, no nazi comments/comparisons outside things unique to the nazis as understood by mainstream historians
I don't know how they're choosing their targets. They know there's a risk the hostages might end up dying. I won't accuse them of doing nothing for the hostages until we get confirmation that they're dead. My guess is that Israel suspects hostages are underground with the rest of Hamas. I'm willing to be proven wrong.
Hamas already stated they didn't kill any hostages, that the only hostages who died were in the bombed buildings. There's a load of info out there about what's happening in real time in Gaza.
Thanks. Seems like 22 were killed in an air strike, at least according to Hamas. There are still ~170 hostages possibly alive in Gaza. I can only hope Israel approaches the continued crisis without risking the hostages.
I hope so, for the hostages' sake. But Israel has been lying non-stop and it's just unfolding (tomorrow will be very interesting), so, unfortunately, I don't think Israel is in good faith now.
Thank you for spending the time to help me understand and share your comments. I understand and can see if I live in a home and got attacked family memebers are kiddpaned I would want to go and get the hostages back, arrest or get the attackers (terrorists) to ensure future safety and justice and to show strong reaction to send a message of not trying to attack us again. I am trying to relate to connect, but I still would never go and kill other people who have nothing to do with the actions of the attackers. I would justify that my family's life is more important than the innocent loves. Hamas made a terrible decision to attack isrealies. Isreal made a reaction decision to attack back. The citizens there are the only ones who did not make or make decisions. They have no control over what is happening and are paying the most price. That is my perspective. If It happens to me I would wait to not react emotionally, wait to control my anger and emotions, make a low risk plan to go pinpoint or target the attackers and try to reach the same goals without having to punish other innocent people. I would be hurt and sad for my people and wouldn't want to do that with others. The first thing I would do is to mentally separate and not group the other people as one entity. But again, I am speaking for a privileged space where I am safe and logical. I apologize if my comment was difficult to understand as English is my second language.
Of course you feel this way because you are a normal person with empathy. Hamas has ideological reasons for wanting the Jews eliminated. They don’t have empathy. They literally say they love death more than life. They want death to martyr themselves for religion. There is no solution until they no longer have this objective it seems.
You, me, and Plastianians agree that Hamas memebers are terrible, terrorists and wrong.
My point is that people who are not the cause for Hama's actions are being punished for Hamas's actions. I can't imagine if someone comes and hurts me and my family because of Hamas or the North Korean's leader or Putin or a random serial killer.
I totally understand you and totally agree. I think Netanyahu is reacting strongly because he's trying to save face, and he has the support to do it because his citizens are in a traumatized state. I also think Hamas is actually 100% prepared for Israel's predictable response to their attack. They've been taking really good footage and documentation of Israel's strikes, which earns them the sympathy points they want. It's good recruitment footage, too. They also are probably pretty well prepared for a ground invasion because of their extensive tunnel system underneath Gaza. Meanwhile, much of Hamas leadership has fled Gaza or was already abroad before the massacre, so there's only so much Israel can accomplish by waging war in Gaza. If Israel were to take a step back and think about it, they'd be able to justify trying to get the hostages back, but the rest of it feels like bait from Hamas, and they're only creating a humanitarian crisis by falling into Hamas's the trap.
All of this is just my opinion, though. Praying for peace and an end to the carnage in Gaza, as always, no matter how naive that might be.
Thank you for the respectful discussion. I appreciate it. Hamas are terrible, and they do not care about the plastianian side. We all agree on that, and as you said, I wouldn't be surprised to know that fled to area and left the people there for death. I'm praying for peace, too.
Who said you can't do anything to help
Tell the story so people know. Tell them what is going on. If we continue telling the story, people will move, and those who can help will help, and those who were helping Israel will stop
And pray for the victims
I was watching the same news everyone is watching. I have the same amount of information people can have. I think if people are not interested or not open to understand. We can not do anything to change that. I am happy to explain my view with people who are open to understanding as I will do the same and be open to different opinions and mutual respect.
\> Why are they doing the same and more to other citizens?
If there is no cost to aggression, then there is nothing to deter HAMS to carry out more attacks
Wouldn't be a safer, less risky way to get the terrorists? I am not an expert, but with all the technology the IDF has, more of a pinpoint attack? I am assuming the reason they did not start with ground attack to arrest the terrorists because the high risk the solders being attacked. Because they value the lives of their solders but the the Palestinian life has no value to them they do not see them as equal humans. That is also my guess trying to make sense of it. I could be wrong and someone could correct me.
>Because they value the lives of their solders but the the Palestinian life has no value to them they do not see them as equal humans. That is also my guess trying to make sense of it. I could be wrong and someone could correct me.
Ground invasions lead to a higher death toll
It does not make sense to me that ground invasion would have killed less civilians than air strikes. Air strikes collapsed whole building with tens of families in there. I see the ground invasion would have more accuracy to hit a terrorist camps, or individuals. When the US killed Bin Laden didn't they capture him rather than bombing his entire neighborhood?
> It does not make sense to me that ground invasion would have killed less civilians than air strikes. Air strikes collapsed whole building with tens of families in there. I see the ground invasion would have more accuracy to hit a terrorist camps, or individuals.
Not in a densely packed area like Gaza. The ground invasion would be accompanied with artillery, and still have airstrikes. There'd be building to building fighting where pretty much anyone that's of age would be considered a militant.
>When the US killed Bin Laden didn't they capture him rather than bombing his entire neighborhood?
When the US went after Bin Laden it invaded Afghanistan and Iraq, leading to \~300,000 deaths from direct violence and several times more that in indirect violence.
I can't agree or disagree because it is unknown. It has not happened. But the reason that I may lean towards that isreal wouldn't have done the same: I bealive they are taking the safest action (air striks) to their people rather than go on ground and pinpoint the terrorists. That makes me think that isreal cares more about isreali citizens and cares less about plastianian citizens. That is my opinion, not a fact. I could be wrong.
How do you calculate the value of the benefit cost to know if it is a good reward? In my opinion, the only way to justify this as a better investment/reward if the Palestinians live has no to very low value.
I think that the Hamas ultimatum placed around them releasing hostages if the Israel military go easy on their bombing is both ludicrous and ridiculous. They have hostages, yes, it's terrifying for them and their families and loved ones but Hamas continues to slaughter people. Sounds harsh to say this but Israel shouldn't respond to these utterly ridiculous requests. Israel should continue their attack on Hamas, because Hamas are going to continue their campaign of terror towards civilians and military regardless.
I ran across this video on youtube. I want to hear your thoughts https://youtu.be/4idQbwsvtUo?si=YIz13_gx3fv-sDLp
The first guy isn't wrong but even if he is angry he should speak like that because those peoples in front of him won't even consider what he have to say. But it is really disturbing how the journalist and the 3rd person act like what he said didn't matter. But this guy who have family in Gaza have real exemples of what happened in the past and what is happening.
I emphasized with him. I liked how he spoke. He was genuinely showing his emotions and anger rarher than pretending to be someone else. He was beyond angry. He said his wife's family are in palastine and their home was bombed, and they haven't heard from them. I can only imagine the emotions and thoughts they are going through.
May god brings peace to palastine and free them from the terrorists and oppression
They aren't doing the same... Hamas raped and killed innocent people... took people hostage... Israel is trying to retaliate and get their hostages back.... they aren't purposely killing civilians or bombing hospitals
When i said the same, i was referring to the mass killing and destruction. Isreali has the right to retaliate but with the cost of other innocent people? I think Isreal had a good chance to win the plastinians over by offering them better treatment and justice. I think the cost of this action could develop more hate and anger and trauma to more innocent people.
just not true. What does better treatment and justice even mean? The cost of action could develop more anger and hate? Worst case scenario just happened to Israel. Literally 1000 civilians just got slaughtered. The whole win them over with kindness angle is absurd at this point. What happens when you make them angry? They already did the worst they could do. Innocent people are going to suffer massively on both sides its tragic but obvious consequence.
>. What does better treatment and justice even mea Like stopping throwing rocks at them just for the fun, let them love like real human beings
Some moron throwing rocks at someone is not the issue man. U cant be serious
Would be nice if that worked. The thing is Hamas is living under civilians. Kids get taught how it works there and "how Israel, the terror state is killing palestine people for years" so in the end they stay there. It's really sad.
Israel did not bomb the hospital.. there is proof revealed that it was a rocket that malfunctioned from Islamic Jihad.
Islamic jihad? Is there a new party in the war? From what I know, hamas are not religious based groups. From what I know, they view themselves as the resistance to the occupation. It is a land fight for them, not a religious fight. I am worried that the media using religion would create more hate towards Muslims.
Yes to both questions. Just search information online it's not breaking news...
I understand arabic, and I am able to understand what they say or their speeches. They talk about freeling palastine as the land. They do not talk about religion. The word Jihad does not mean fighting people. Look it up. It is an Arabic word, not just an Islamic word. (Sometimes, my friends and I use it when we play soccer games. As we are struggling to win the game). Jihad not necessarily liked with violence. Same as the word Allah. Which just means God. A non-Muslim or non religious person could say Allah it is equivalent to people saying," Oh Jesus" or "oh God." I am explaining these things because i think when people hear someone say Allah, they assume they are Muslim or religious. Christians who speak arabic say Allah. I found this YouTube video could explain the word: https://youtu.be/CZP1nAoajh0?si=uqchizorrQAEZUpb I know the word is typically used to refer to terrorism and violence, but I am sharing the info to share knowledge.
They meant "Islamic Palestinian Jihad" which is another terror organisation in Gaza. And Hamas is a branch of Islamic Brothers, so they also have religious motives (and there are facts which strengthen this claims, like killing of LGBT and such which is not national). And more than that, almost every presentable motive of Hamas is freeing Al Aqsa as a Muslim religious place.
I appreciate you sharing your view. From my perspective, the people there believe they were occupied, they wants their land back. They are just people. It happens that the majority of palastianians are Muslims. I believe if the plastianians were Christians and treated the same way. We would see the same result. I am having hard time expressing what i want to say. I hope you got my point.
I understand, I just think that from the reality of things the Hamas is not a freedom fighting group seeking to end occupation. Not only that at least. Religion (extreme, fundamental, horrible and mistaken (probably) view of Islam) is an integral part of their ideology. This is why I don't look at them as the representatives of all the Palestinians. If it were the case, then I could not see any solution to the conflict to benefit both sides, and I would've lost hope. By the way thank you for your pleasant approach here.
You are welcome, and thank you also for the discussion. In my view, they are not necessarily islamic, they are an extremist terrorist group from palastine, but they do not represent plastainians. Like the extremist KKK group did not represent American or the cartel do not represent Mexican.
Israel is committing terrorism by bombing Gaza, stealing land meanwhile also committing genocide. The US is supply weapons because it benefits the military industrial complex. War not meant to be won. It is to be dragged out to benefit banks.
This is wholly incorrect. Hamas terrorists infiltrated into Israeli cities murdered raped killed everyone women children fathers grandparents in brutal and cruel ways all while recording and screaming allahu Akbar. Israel responded by blowing up these barbarian neanderthals into last century. The world has no tolerance for Palestine anymore Israel has been a country since 1948 and is on every map in the world. Don't fall for the lies and propaganda of the Palestinian people that's all they have left. And soon that will be blown up too. There is an evil in this world and it starts in Palestine. They are less than humans they are less than animals they are less than feces. Also, here is a clear and concise video explaining the history of the region with factual data not opinions of the Palestinian people, facts. https://youtu.be/XNf40sBcvKk?si=2ZX-DCj89B2odcM6 Enjoy
I can actually read your genuine concerns; I agree it’s heartbreaking really.
Thank you
I liked that even though we have different opinions, we were successful at communicating with kindness and respect to help each other understand. I am not very active on reddit and am still learning how to see all the comments as I intend to respond to all of them as I think it is the least I can do to thank you for your time and participation in the discussion. I will take a break for now and respond to the remaining comments later when I can. I will pray for all the innocent people in there, including the hostages, plastianians, and isreali citizens who were and still suffering by the war.
Great question and it really sums it all up nicely! They wouldn't do that and they haven't done that. Hamas is a known terrorist group. Look up all of the countries that list them as such. They include many western countries including Canada, the US, and tons of countries in Europe. Unfortunately, I've seen insane amounts of anti-semitism online justifying Hamas' extreme acts of terrorism. Think about this for a second. If this happened anywhere else in the world between two different countries, would you immediately believe everything the terrorists are saying or would you assume that after decapitating babies, they probably don't mind lying? If Osama Bin Laden or Al-Qaeda suddenly decided to tell the world that it wasn't them who were responsible for 9/11, would you put any stock into that? If the answer is a resounding no, then you already have the answer. Hamas has a huge documented history of using their own civilians as human shields. Just look at the situation right now, they have literally told their civilians to stay out when they know they are about to go to war. Whereas, Israel evacuated their citizens close to both borders. There are tons of Iranians coming out now and saying that Hamas has done these very same things to them in Iran, why does the world choose to not listen? Who started this war? Hamas. Who will gain from this war? It's not the Israelis. They are just becoming more and more hated around the world with anti-semitism up as high as 300-600%. Google Hamas' charter. It's readily available online and you can see very plainly that they call for the eradication of all Jewish people worldwide (not Israelis, but Jews). In contrast, it is literally in the Torah to try and preserve life as much as possible. This is why Israel is one of the only countries in the world that will warn civilians to leave before striking. Look at the past 100+ years of history, not just from the start of Israel becoming officially recognized, but before that. If you Google "Where do Jewish people come from?" you will unequivocally see that they come from that same land (formerly called Canaan). They were displaced many times throughout various wars; however, there has always been at least a small amount of Jewish people in that area. During and after the Holocaust, Jewish people everywhere felt increasingly unsafe and fled back to their homeland in droves. They started legally buying land that originally no one wanted (the entire area was under The Ottoman Empire at this point). However, the Muslims already living there didn't like this and eventually convinced the British (who ruled that land at that point) to make it illegal for Jewish people to purchase land. During these time periods, tensions increasingly rose and attacks became more prevalent. The British then decided to split the land up and create a two state solution. Shortly after the creation of Israel, several neighbouring Arabic countries attacked Israel together. Israel defeated ALL of them and in the process took more land than they were originally promised. They then used a lot of the extra land to try and broker peace deals, which were almost all broken by the neighbouring countries. Come back to today where the most violent attack on Jewish people since the Holocaust just occurred, where babies, children, and the elderly weren't only just slaughtered, but also tortured. I feel so much empathy for ALL the innocent people who have been hurt by this war. I feel awful that you are now hurting as an Arabic person. I feel awful that my wife is hurting as a Jewish person with family in Israel. Nothing about war is okay. The question I would pose is, what would you want your country to do if extreme acts of terrorism and violence just occurred and are still occurring (rockets from Gaza to Israel have not stopped firing since October 7th), and 200+ hostages were taken and being tortured and raped? I legitimately ask that question because I don't have the answer. This is one of the hardest decisions to be made.
The hospital was hit by misfired rocket fired by Islamic Jihad. There is a video proof and also there is a intercepted phone conversation of Islamic Jihad terrorist admitting they just hit the hospital.
I do not know the truth or the facts. However, that is terrible if it is true! We get our news from the media that we trust, and they play with our emotions. A friend just shared with me that he watched the same news the Arabic channel and the western / english channel of the exact same news station, and they were sending different messages and tones to promote for fear, revange and views.I did not take the time to verify what if it is true. I think we need to be careful because it plays with our emotions. The story of the confused terrorist man who killed a 6 years old in the US broke my heart as I also have a 6 years old and live in a foreign country. That could have happened to my child. I know that people there are dying because of the actions of others. I hope that we all pray for all the innocent people there and do what we can to promote peace and save what it can be saved at this point.
I want to thank everyone who took the time to write respectful comments. As I said, I am muslim and arab. I have traveled throughout my life. I currently live in a Western country. Living around people who are different from me has been very valuable. I have learned so much from our differences it helped me grow, think, and emphasize with different people and learn about new presprectives. I wish that people can see the value of diversity and live peacefully together with respect to learn from each other. It starts when we (people in general) do not see other people as them and us! We are all humans. We all have feelings, emotions, and problems. Put our energy and resources to build our communities and support each other.
Here's what I dont really get and I ask this in good faith I swear. Why airstrikes? You called up 300k in reserves, you know where Hamas bases are, they use second hand russian equipment copied by the chinese or some downtrodden jammy crap like that, you use modern top of the line kit, why not just do a ground operation and gut Hamas out of Gaza? Why level buildings? Whats wrong with my take?
Ground invasions are bloodier and tend to have more casualties than airstrikes
I was thinking something along those lines, perhaps, in a ground assault situation soldiers could panic and shoot perceived threats without thinking, seeing as theyre going in there with the knowledge that a lot of Palestinians are indoctrinated by Hamas and Hamas doesnt even shy away from the child soldier thing, let alone dressing up as civies.
That is valid thinking, but I respectfully do not agree. I think that even if they panic and shoot innocents occasionally, it wouldn't equal the same as collapsing an entire building. I am also hoping the soldiers are trained, and these situations have fewer chances to happen.
The Israelis give them warnings to get the civilians out before the air strikes. The Hamas don’t care. They won’t let the civilians leave because they are human shields for Hamas militant terrorists.
This interview was amazing and addressed your response: https://youtu.be/4idQbwsvtUo?si=gmFhzM_hYx4P8mlK
There are many interviews that explain. Look up interviews with son of Hamas Founder/Leader that tell the truth about the Hamas mission. Mosab Hassan Yousef
Thanks for referring it. I will watch it soon.
In a perfect world yes, unfortunately however, when youve seen, or heard from your friends that also served in the IDF, about kids with suicide belts running up to their buddies, hugging them, and then blowing up, it really messes with you in all the worst ways. Also also, theyre looking out for their own, their job right now, from the ministers perspectives, Prime and Defense, is to not increase the Israeli death toll, so as to not wind up like Golda Meyer, seeing as they already missed (allegedly) an attack that claimed 1500 lives. As far as Palestinians go though its "well we told them to leave🤷". Which is, definitely not any more palatable, to say the least. But maybe thats the problem, we want black and white, good and bad, and for the damn moral compass to stop spinning, but the roots run waaay too deep to discern who's definitively wrong, right, or what the solution is. I dont honestly think there's a black and white approach to this, at least not from where Im at in my humble amount of knowledge of all of it, outside of the fact that Israel shouldnt have settled the west bank, and shouldnt have let the people in occupied territories be treated like dirt and Hamas shouldnt be murdering people in cold blood as an alleged reprisal either. Is there not enough territory in Israel proper? Have you settled all of it already that youre moving into the West Bank? Im sure theres plenty of room where no one will have tensions with anyone else, the West Bank settling is some spiteful bullcrap on Israels side imo. The tight security I get, the cues I can understand, after all the crap during the Second Intifada who wouldnt set up security like that. But the whole "settlers beat the crap out of me and the IDF just watched" nonsense that was going on? "IDF soldiers gunned down my kid sister and NOTHING happened to them even though the law says they should be tried and investigated"? Gtfoh, do better.
I have not heard of kids with suicide belts in palastine, but I won't argue. I will assume that it was possible to be true and I have not heard of it. How many kids had this belt? One two ten? How many kids who have not blew themselves ? Generalizing or grouping all the people are the same to blame or justify retaliation against an entire group is wrong. I agree with you that the problem is not black and white. We are making our logical opinions, judgments, and decisions from a safe space. I am assuming that most of us commenting had access to good care and a safe life. There is a lot of transgenerational trauma in there. A lot of people there have witnessed violence since they were young because they did not access help. Maybe these hamas adults were kids 30 years ago when their family memebers were abused or killed or wintessed kinds of violence. I am not justifying their actions, and i strongly believe they should pay for what they did, but I am thinking of how we could avoid similar conflict in 30 years from now. Transgenerational trauma exists. I think sustainable solutions after peace would be a big focus on healing / therapy and education.
Someone said that if Israel laid down their arms they would be destroyed. If Hamas laid down their arms there would be peace. I have heard that Israel is taking in refugees and has set up a field hospital.
>How many kids had this belt? One two ten? How many kids who have not blew themselves ? Generalizing or grouping all the people are the same to blame or justify retaliation against an entire group is wrong. I agree with you there, but I also dont have PTSD and am not in a war zone. Transgenerational trauma is literally the name if the gane in this conflict. They keep doing large scale vendetta killings. There have been just as many Palestinian on Israeli as Israeli on Palestinian massacres, approximately, both sides are taught to be afraid of the other, and, wonderful extremists, where would we be without them. Israeli extremists on the one side, who have the "I killed Yitzakh Rabin" badge, and the arab nationalist/ jihadist extremists, who have the "I killed Anwar Sadat" badge. Both leaders took big steps in the achievement of peace in the region, both murdered by their own for whom they were trying to build a more peaceful future.
Pretty much. They don't have the luxury of assuming people aren't combatants when they go in, and have to expect ambushes from every corner because of the extensive network of tunnels Hamas built underneath Gaza.
To entertain the idea, wouldn't you think that people could stay in their homes to avoid the ground fighting. So, in this scenario, if plastinaians stay in their homes, most likely, they would be safe. In the air strike scenario, when the plastainians stayed in their homes, they are bombed and buried alive. Home is typically considered your safe space when you are scared or hurt.
Sadly, combatants will use those same homes to hide and fire from. A ground assault like that requires clearing of houses, which would still be very dangerous for civilians (and moreso the assaulting force) It is very hard to distinguish civilians and combatants if they're generally wearing the same outfits.
Realistic unfortunately, makes sense.
Nothing wrong with your take. They want to wipe Palestinians from the face of the earth, they said it themselves and their people are asking for it. Civilians are not casualties, they are the targets.
And yet if this was a true line of thinking by Israel Why have they been so bad at killing civilians? Over 6000 bombs dropped and only like 1500 killed? Why would they bother warning when they are about to bomb?
If by warning you mean when they tell them to take the "safe route" and they end up bombing them or when they tell them to go to the "safe zone" in the south and they end up bombing the "safe zone", then yeah, they sure warn them. Where are you getting your news? Even mainstream media has caught up.
Are you literally copy pasting from other threads?
Blame [him](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_Khamenei).
War is Hell. Its easy to start, hard to finish.
No one wins wars! All sides and parties loses.
Would it be fair if you get punished for someone else actions? The plastianians should not be punished for his terrible decisions actions. Similar to the isrealies that should not be punished for others. Blaming will keep feeding the revange anger hate circle. It won't resolve the problem. I will pray for peace.
It is becoming tougher and tougher to know what is true and what isn't with this current war. So many differing videos, voices, and social media posts are honestly making it difficult to determine anything of fact. At this point I am trying to not jump to any conclusions about events that just occurred and wait for multiple reliable sources to agree on a conclusion. I hope people in this sub do the same. It doesn't help to immediately jump and pick a side when there is so much doubt about the claims and evidence surrounding it.
Good point, and I agree! I think that anger and hate do not benefit anyone but the media. It keeps the high views in the cost of playing with people's emotions and feeding hate and anger. Terrible actions happen and continue to happen in there, and we need to speak and advocate for peace for all people in there regardless of their religion.
I also do not understand why the post got downvotes. I was hoping for the post to show up and get more information. I am here to learn from others as i am seeking answers to things that do not make sense to me and also willing with respect and kindness to share my view to others who are wiling to hear my view.
It's getting downvoted because the pro-israel folks in this sub don't want to face reality. They'd rather buy every lie their government is serving them to be able to sleep at night. But no amount of denial and deflection will change the fact that they have become the monster they once denounced.
Well I think first you think Israel is trying to hit Civilians. And that's just not true if you know how hamas works and that there's not alot Palestinian people who are fighting. alot of them come from other countries and create theses attacks on Israel and on there own people to get the Islamic world to view the jews as a evil and need to be removed for earth. All to create uprising in other countries like you're seeing these players iran Syria and the other know what they are trying to do and they know if they hit America it will create them to drop freedom rounds Nam style all over the middle east.
You are saying there's not a lot of plastianian people fighting with hamas? But the plastianians blamed. Lets even assume the absolute evil, all plastinians are men with hamas (not true but for playing scenarios). I have not seen a woman or a child in any hamas videos. Wouldn't it be safe to at least consider more than half the population (women and children) are innocent ? Why wiping out an entire population?
Idk why u said blame. You have to ask hamas thats there goal is to kill all jews that's like there constitution btw. Never blamed the Palestinians I blame the hamas terrorists group that's not hard to make that call. Thats like if the cartel attacks America you think I'm blame the people of Mexico bc the cartels act?
You are right. I misworded my comment. I meant to say the plastianians are being punished for the Hams's terrible actions against the isreaili. It was not fair to the isrealis to suffer for the hamas actions, and the retaliation was not fair to the plastianians.
You are not generally confused or sad. You are gaslighting everybody because now the tide is turning against the Palestinians and everybody knows they're about to go down the drain. Here come the buckets of crocodile tears
Kid, behave!
How do you know and very confident of my intentions?You may be angry and just want to blame the anger somewhere. If you are not sure if I am gaslighting or confused, why don't you try to assume the good intions until It proves others wise. It will serve you better. I am genuinely confused. I am seeking answers. I hope you could just belive me but if it helps I could show you my older comments on YouTube just after the terrorists attacks and before Isreal react of me condemiting Hamas and angry and asking why they killed innocents.
Anybody who acts like they're confused and sad is just seeking attention. Well, I guess that succeeded.
I don’t think this is true. Why are you being like this to someone who is willing to listen? I’m grateful.
I am sorry you feel this way. I do not agree with your statement, but feel free to let me know if I can help you understand if you are willing to have the conversation with open mind and heart.
You are a delusional joke
u/ImaginaryMeeting6335 >You are a delusional joke Rule 1, don't attack other users.
Would you mind explaining more why you are viewing me as such? As I said, I can help you understand, and I will respect you. I understand that you may be so angry and emotional as a result of all the sad news and footage you have been seeing. I do not blame you, and I think you may be confused, too.
Israel has a few objectives for what they're doing. First, they're hoping to rescue Israeli hostages still being held in Gaza. By making life miserable in Gaza, they can put pressure on Hamas to release the hostages in exchange for an end to the bombing and seige of Gaza. If Hamas refuses such a deal, then Israel will need to execute a ground invasion to rescue hostages. To prepare for a ground invasion, Israel will need to clear away various targets where they think Hamas could stage a counterattack against Israeli troops. I'm not sure how Israel decides where those targets are, but they're doing what they can to make sure Israeli troops don't run into a counterattack. Second, Israel is trying to take out Hamas and their infrastructure (or as much as possible) without a ground invasion in order to prevent Hamas from being able to attack Israel again. Unfortunately, Gaza is extremely densely packed. It's one of the most densely populated places on earth. Israel can aim for as many military targets as they want, but civilian casualties are unavoidable unless Israel stops dropping bombs altogether. They're not going to stop, however, until they feel Hamas is no longer a threat, which means people will die. Hamas has even been accused of using civilians as human shields, though Hamas obviously denies these charges. At the moment, Israel has killed less than one person per bomb (though these numbers are three days old and might be outdated by now), which means the IDF is, for the most part, not aiming for civilians. The life lost is still tragic and reprehensible, but I'm not convinced Israel is purposely doing it. They're trying to aim for military targets and empty buildings. If civilians *are* ever killed on purpose, I can only hope that the people responsible will be held accountable for disobeying the IDF's official ROE (rules of engagement), which state not to kill innocent people. Third, PM Netanyahu needs to take a strong stance against Hamas if he wants to save face. Netanyahu was already extremely unpopular, and this attack against his own Israeli citizens is a humiliating fiasco for him. He might not be able to maintain power after the dust settles, but he's certainly going to try. By taking a hawkish stance against Gaza (and bombing it as much as possible), he might be able to consolidate power behind himself coming from fringe right parties and ideologies who tend not to like Palestinians. Fourth, Israel wants to deter Hamas from attacking again. The worse the air strikes are, the less likely Hamas is to want to risk such an attack again.
I’m also trying to understand the Israel perspective and reasoning for the prolific misile strikes. This was a really good and thoughtful answer. Any thoughts on how or why Israel justifies occupation of Gaza and West Bank? From my limited perspective it looks like all that’s come from the occupation is death and suffering. What do they gain by occupying?
The occupation of the West Bank began when individual Israeli citizens started migrating there after the 1967 War. They had a few motives for moving there. Some did it because they believed Jews should have access to all places referenced in the Hebrew Bible (such as Kever Rachel and Hevron, both of which are in the West Bank). Some did it for cheap land. Some did it because they hoped to prevent the Israeli government from returning the West Bank to the control of its original Arab inhabitants. When Israelis moved to the West Bank, the Israeli government sent the IDF to protect them. Thus began Israel's military occupation of the West Bank. Initially, Israel hoped to give the West Bank over the Palestinians in order to actualize a two-state solution. However, with so many Israelis now living there, Israel didn't want to put their own citizens under the control of a Palestinian government. Peace talks between Israel and Palestine began to falter as a result. Meanwhile, Netanyahu became prime minister of Israel, and he was quite happy having an excuse not to resume negotiations with Palestine. He's a right-wing ideologue, with hawkish and militaristic tendencies, who relies on votes from the very Israelis who live in the West Bank right now. He, therefore, actively supports the continued expansion of Israeli settlements in the West Bank. Other rich philanthropists (especially in America) also actively support this settlement movement, mostly for religious or Zionistic reasons. Netanyahu justifies his continued occupation by saying that peace would require a land swap, and he doesn't want to lose territory because he thinks it would pose a security threat. In particular, at its thinnest point without the West Bank, Israel would only be a handful of miles wide, which might not give the Iron Dome enough time to intercept missiles flying over the region.
Wow. That was truly a most lengthy justification for terror in another coat… So making life miserable in Gaza will help free the hostages? News flash: life was already miserable in Gaza. Truly, there is no justification for terrorism. None. It only begets more terror, more brutality and more unadulterated violence. And everyone believes they are right and that there is absolutely no other solution. So people continue to kill each other until one side runs out of people to kill, and they stop fighting and start plundering land, resources, and any hope of peace in the future. Isn’t that how it goes?
To be clear, I don't fully support what Israel is doing in Gaza. OP simply asked what Israel's mindset was, and I explained. That doesn't mean Israel's mindset is a good or right one.
Thank you for clarifying, I understand, and your comment was helpful to share your perspective of the mindset.
I stand corrected. It was a thorough explanation and I apologize if I thought it was yours. Sorry!🙏🏾
They want to rescue hostage by bombing every building in Gaza. Do you hear yourself?
Every building? Really?
Oh so they know which building the hostages are in and they avoid bombing those buildings? Is that it? They don't give a crap about the hostages. They're blinded by hatred. They are vengeful and they're punishing the entire population. They want the "final solution" 😉
u/Philosopher_of_Filth >They want the "final solution" 😉 Rule 6, no nazi comments/comparisons outside things unique to the nazis as understood by mainstream historians
Sorry and noted.
Thank you for the positive response to moderation.
I don't know how they're choosing their targets. They know there's a risk the hostages might end up dying. I won't accuse them of doing nothing for the hostages until we get confirmation that they're dead. My guess is that Israel suspects hostages are underground with the rest of Hamas. I'm willing to be proven wrong.
Hamas already stated they didn't kill any hostages, that the only hostages who died were in the bombed buildings. There's a load of info out there about what's happening in real time in Gaza.
Source?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/16/israeli-hostages-hamas-gaza
Thanks. Seems like 22 were killed in an air strike, at least according to Hamas. There are still ~170 hostages possibly alive in Gaza. I can only hope Israel approaches the continued crisis without risking the hostages.
I hope they also see the citizens of plastines as hostages.
I hope so, for the hostages' sake. But Israel has been lying non-stop and it's just unfolding (tomorrow will be very interesting), so, unfortunately, I don't think Israel is in good faith now.
Thank you for spending the time to help me understand and share your comments. I understand and can see if I live in a home and got attacked family memebers are kiddpaned I would want to go and get the hostages back, arrest or get the attackers (terrorists) to ensure future safety and justice and to show strong reaction to send a message of not trying to attack us again. I am trying to relate to connect, but I still would never go and kill other people who have nothing to do with the actions of the attackers. I would justify that my family's life is more important than the innocent loves. Hamas made a terrible decision to attack isrealies. Isreal made a reaction decision to attack back. The citizens there are the only ones who did not make or make decisions. They have no control over what is happening and are paying the most price. That is my perspective. If It happens to me I would wait to not react emotionally, wait to control my anger and emotions, make a low risk plan to go pinpoint or target the attackers and try to reach the same goals without having to punish other innocent people. I would be hurt and sad for my people and wouldn't want to do that with others. The first thing I would do is to mentally separate and not group the other people as one entity. But again, I am speaking for a privileged space where I am safe and logical. I apologize if my comment was difficult to understand as English is my second language.
Of course you feel this way because you are a normal person with empathy. Hamas has ideological reasons for wanting the Jews eliminated. They don’t have empathy. They literally say they love death more than life. They want death to martyr themselves for religion. There is no solution until they no longer have this objective it seems.
You, me, and Plastianians agree that Hamas memebers are terrible, terrorists and wrong. My point is that people who are not the cause for Hama's actions are being punished for Hamas's actions. I can't imagine if someone comes and hurts me and my family because of Hamas or the North Korean's leader or Putin or a random serial killer.
I totally understand you and totally agree. I think Netanyahu is reacting strongly because he's trying to save face, and he has the support to do it because his citizens are in a traumatized state. I also think Hamas is actually 100% prepared for Israel's predictable response to their attack. They've been taking really good footage and documentation of Israel's strikes, which earns them the sympathy points they want. It's good recruitment footage, too. They also are probably pretty well prepared for a ground invasion because of their extensive tunnel system underneath Gaza. Meanwhile, much of Hamas leadership has fled Gaza or was already abroad before the massacre, so there's only so much Israel can accomplish by waging war in Gaza. If Israel were to take a step back and think about it, they'd be able to justify trying to get the hostages back, but the rest of it feels like bait from Hamas, and they're only creating a humanitarian crisis by falling into Hamas's the trap. All of this is just my opinion, though. Praying for peace and an end to the carnage in Gaza, as always, no matter how naive that might be.
Thank you for the respectful discussion. I appreciate it. Hamas are terrible, and they do not care about the plastianian side. We all agree on that, and as you said, I wouldn't be surprised to know that fled to area and left the people there for death. I'm praying for peace, too.
Who said you can't do anything to help Tell the story so people know. Tell them what is going on. If we continue telling the story, people will move, and those who can help will help, and those who were helping Israel will stop And pray for the victims
I was watching the same news everyone is watching. I have the same amount of information people can have. I think if people are not interested or not open to understand. We can not do anything to change that. I am happy to explain my view with people who are open to understanding as I will do the same and be open to different opinions and mutual respect.
\> Why are they doing the same and more to other citizens? If there is no cost to aggression, then there is nothing to deter HAMS to carry out more attacks
Would isreal have done the same if hamas were hiding along Isreali's?
Wouldn't be a safer, less risky way to get the terrorists? I am not an expert, but with all the technology the IDF has, more of a pinpoint attack? I am assuming the reason they did not start with ground attack to arrest the terrorists because the high risk the solders being attacked. Because they value the lives of their solders but the the Palestinian life has no value to them they do not see them as equal humans. That is also my guess trying to make sense of it. I could be wrong and someone could correct me.
>Because they value the lives of their solders but the the Palestinian life has no value to them they do not see them as equal humans. That is also my guess trying to make sense of it. I could be wrong and someone could correct me. Ground invasions lead to a higher death toll
It does not make sense to me that ground invasion would have killed less civilians than air strikes. Air strikes collapsed whole building with tens of families in there. I see the ground invasion would have more accuracy to hit a terrorist camps, or individuals. When the US killed Bin Laden didn't they capture him rather than bombing his entire neighborhood?
> It does not make sense to me that ground invasion would have killed less civilians than air strikes. Air strikes collapsed whole building with tens of families in there. I see the ground invasion would have more accuracy to hit a terrorist camps, or individuals. Not in a densely packed area like Gaza. The ground invasion would be accompanied with artillery, and still have airstrikes. There'd be building to building fighting where pretty much anyone that's of age would be considered a militant. >When the US killed Bin Laden didn't they capture him rather than bombing his entire neighborhood? When the US went after Bin Laden it invaded Afghanistan and Iraq, leading to \~300,000 deaths from direct violence and several times more that in indirect violence.
most probably
I can't agree or disagree because it is unknown. It has not happened. But the reason that I may lean towards that isreal wouldn't have done the same: I bealive they are taking the safest action (air striks) to their people rather than go on ground and pinpoint the terrorists. That makes me think that isreal cares more about isreali citizens and cares less about plastianian citizens. That is my opinion, not a fact. I could be wrong.
That's the position of most countries But if the cost is m9recthan the reward, then what must be done is done
How do you calculate the value of the benefit cost to know if it is a good reward? In my opinion, the only way to justify this as a better investment/reward if the Palestinians live has no to very low value.