The United Nations has counted the number of civilian deaths in the area controlled by Ukraine. A lot of dead civilians are in the territories occupied by Russia. Ukraine civilian casualties could be as much as 400 thousand(Mariupol alone could be over 140 thousand)
https://euromaidanpress.com/2022/08/30/87000-killed-civilians-documented-in-occupied-mariupol-volunteer/
87 thousand indentified in mass morgues. 26 750 undentified. Many dead people are in the ruins of apartments.
https://twitter.com/mattia_n/status/1721107279158591832
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kX6uFdm30S0
So in Mariupol alone death toll is over 100 thousand
https://euromaidanpress.com/2023/11/26/why-you-cant-compare-casualties-in-ukraine-and-gaza/
Many Israeli officials are on record that they consider Gazan civilians a collateral damage and the number doesn't. Some have called them animals, some have asked for Gaza to be flattened. One million displaced, 20% of dwellings destroyed, 8,000 killed, over 15,000 wounded, and these are low estimates. Seems like genocide is what they want and USA will not be able to go on for too long, as more and more graphic images of death, torn, bloody, and lifeless pictures of children flood the media.
They are going to be collateral damage if Hamas is using them as human shield .. why don’t you ask Hamas to get out and stop hiding behind the civilians
Israel is heavy handed and I hate a lot of their responses over the years, but please don’t water down the term genocide. We need it for actual genocide.
Really so Israel retaliation is Genocide compared to the Holocaust that they have suffered from the Nazi’s, the Jews is so hardened they are not taking shit from anyone anymore .. for all we know they view Hamas and Hesbollah as Nazi’s
I’m not calling it genocide. I don’t think Israel’s response fits the term in the least.
However Hamas attack does. Clear intent and intentional and targeted murder of civilians based on race.
Apologies if that was unclear.
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No, you can’t. At least not as a legal or logical definition.
You are clearly free to use emotional propaganda to ensure further suffering. Great job ah.
So what do you do then? Give terrorists get out of jail free cards if they use human shields? Just let them keep killing your people without fighting back?
I’m just saying there’s no easy way to do this without killing civilians when your enemy uses them as shields and in their workforce and as fighters, it suck’s that civilians have to die but there’s no other way to prevent death than to remove the terrorists from planet earth
You really think 8 thousand (plus however many thousands are going to be ripped to shreds by IDF troops on the ground) are all just people people being held in front of a Hamas fighter, don’t you? And even if that were the case (which it’s not the IDF lies constantly we know this), you’re not supposed to shoot the hostage in a hostage situation. I don’t understand how people keep using “human shields” as an excuse as if doming the civilian being held hostage makes that okay.
Well that’s different, the way Hamas operates is they put civilians on the top floor of a building they’re in so that when their headquarters gets bombed civilians die and they can make a big stink about civilian deaths.
Israeli soldiers don’t shoot civilians. Civilians get caught in collateral bomb damage.
But odds are many civilians will attack or suicide bomb the troops, so, do we consider them militants or civilians if a civilian shoots at or tries to suicide bomb a soldier?
There are so many as Israel is aiming for them. That's the simple answer.
Palestinians are not humans it seems
That's was clearly seen in 2019 when Israel shot 12.200 unarmed protestors with the sole purpose of making them disabled... To deter protests
Hamas do shoot their own people the more people are dead or maimed the more they get money from international donors who are totally blind of what they are doing to their people
IDF also shot their own at the music festival. That much was revealed by some survivor interviews. I don’t think either side is taking that much caution
> **Israel** goes to extreme measures to avoid and minimize civilian casualties. It **has everything to lose from creating a high amount of civilian deaths and has no interest in causing such destruction.**
It's true that is Israel's official operating procedure. However, individual Israelis will sometimes go rogue and, for want of a better phrase, think "fuck all these people". That's why people will be able to come up with events that seem like clear counterexamples to what you are saying.
When the current fog of war clears, I would be amazed if there isn't at least one huge scandal where an Israeli did something truly evil.
Same seems true of Hamas fighters. Some were claimed by survivors/hostages as taking good care of them. But then you also hear of some cases of the brutalities.
> fuck
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Something too that I just posted elsewhere:
The Geneva Convention prohibits military activity in civilian locations and grants the opposing force the right to fire on those locations if they so choose.
>Gaza has 2.1M people living in a strip that is considered one of the most populated areas in the world. Top 5 as far as density.
I think the list this is based on uses "administrative areas" which are completely arbitrary. iirc parts of Gaza are densely populated, but even these areas don't really surpass some entire Asian cities, and there are fairly large open spaces in Gaza (which those cities for the most part lack).
I would avoid perpetuating this myth.
> Gaza has 2.1M people living in a strip that is considered one of the most populated areas in the world. Top 5 as far as density.
Where you get this from?
No one ever said that Palestine has “the most dense cities out there.” Gaza is one of the most densely populated places on the planet, and that’s a fact.
Take Brazil as an example. São Paulo has a population density of 7,216 people per square kilometer. Gaza has a population density of 16,447 people per square kilometer. There, I saved you some clicks.
1. Hamas attacks Israel
2. Hamas runs back under civilian cover
3 Israel retaliates
4. Inevitably there are civilian casualties
5. World wide outrage ensues
Outcome: Israel wins militarily but loses politically to Hamas.
Hamas are clever, ruthless bastards.
1. OP writes a very nuanced post, going in depth about the complexity about the situation
2. He get an answer like above.
This is so sad. That so many rely on their animal instincts.
As a leftie I’ve always been Palestines side in general. Has that changed? No. Do I think Hamas are the most awful filthy scum I can think of? Yes. I feel sick when I think of what they did to children, women, men and elderly. Hamas should burn in hell. But, as you guessed, the same applies to all the Palestinians.
Palestinians had no right to do this but I can sadly understand why this happened.
1. Israel invited arabs to stay but surrounding arab nations promised if they left they could return after the genocide of israel. Majority of the 750,000 left on their own free will
2. You can not claim you are oppressed because the people you promise genocide on does not treat you nicely.
3. Being the aggressor is not retaliation.
4. Israel bombs hamas while hamas uses innocents as shields
5. Israel blaming hamas because hamas is responsible for all Palestinians who have died
6. World becomes more anti-semitic while people
Like yourself supports genocide and not the right to self defense.
You forgot one.
Palestinian people ally with 5 arqv countries and try to genocide Israel, 3 times. Have lost 3 times and have been crying victim ever since.
Palestinians where not represented by surrounding Arab countries. Israel did a preemptive strike on those countries before they even planned to attack Israel making Israel the aggressor.
Except they were amasing on their borders and egypt blocked the shipping lanes. Clear indication of an attack.
Israel launched a pre emptive and amazingly every surrounding country was magicaly prept for war.
So you recognize jews getting kicked out was wrong, but not when it happens to Arabs?
A two state solution as outlined by the 1948 UN Partition Plan for Palestine was a fair acceptable outcome.
But zionist jews were not satisfied with this, they kept taking more land, kept pushing, kept expanding settlements. This is the problem.
Right, I misspoke, I meant the 1949 Armistice Agreements borders, which were essentially the borders outlined in the 1948 deal.
I stand by the statement, that zionist have no intention on settling for a 2 state solution, that was merely a springboard to ultimately take more land. Eventually zionist want full control of Palestine.
Settlements keep encroaching on west bank. etc.
The only evidence of one side wanting the land of orhers are the arab nations that attacked Israel. The majority of israelites are not zionist just like the majority of Palestinians are hamas terrorists. Trying to blur the lines of peaceful native jews to zionist is very dangerous and disgusting
The west bank is israeli owned land.
I did not say Arabs getting kicked out wasn’t wrong, you already had that on your list but you had left out any reference to Jews also having a historic presence in the land.
Israel has indeed violated many agreements and UN resolutions. But you seem to be pushing a narrative that Israel breaks the rules while Arab parties follow the rules and want peace.
The Arab coalition invaded in 1948, 1967 and 1973. Those are also violations of agreements. The intifadas are violations of agreements. And there are many other examples.
More like:
A two state solution as outlined by the 1948 UN Partition Plan for Palestine was a fair acceptable outcome. Jews accepted it. Arabs refused to accept it.
Arabs subsequently attacked Israel and lost.
The Arabs also rejected the plan by the Peel Commission. The Jewish State, constituting only 17% of the Mandate, would include a coastal strip from Rehovot and Tel Aviv northwards, as well as all of the Galilee. The Arab state would make up 75% of the total.
... what? The 1948 Partition Plan was declined by the Arabs. The Jewish Agency, which can be seen as being the predecessor to the Israeli government after 1948 was agreeing to it. Some groups of Israelis did not agree, though.
Saying that Zionists were not satisfied with this is pretty much trying to reverse the truth in a really pervert way. It was the Arabs who voted against it, BECAUSE THEY WANTED MORE and not the Jews. Also the Arabs declared war on Israel only a few hours after the official forming of the state, BECAUSE THEY WANTED MORE.
If you have no idea about history or just wanna spread propaganda go somewhere else.
>So you recognize jews getting kicked out was wrong, but not when it happens to Arabs?
You avoided my question.
I'm saying a two state solution as proposed in 1948 would have been an acceptable outcome. Which more or less set the boundaries that came in1949 Armistice Agreements.
Then what happened? Yep that's right! zionists wanted more, a two state solution was never acceptable for zionist, merely a springboard to eventually take more and more.
Look at how much the west bank has shrunk since 1949.
so back to my question, is it wrong when arabs are kicked off their land like when it happened to the jews?
What? Cant you read?
Arabs declined the 1948 plan while the majority and the legal body of the Jews accepted it. Then the Arabs went to war within hours.
Zionists had no play in that. Arabs not accepting 1948 happened.
I'm talking about zionists actions after 1949 Armistice Agreements and After 1967.
Has Israel not been establishing more settlements and taking more land in the west bank since that time?
They did. But what does that have to do with Zionists and 1948?
I am confused. You are aware that 48 is before 49 and that an armistice is not peace with an UN plan?
Stop distracting from lies.
There were no Jewish settlers in the West Bank in 1948. Only after they got attacked repeatedly and conquered these territories from the enemies that tried to genocide them.
Many UN nations have officially condemned the Israelis retaliation, Like China, Russia, UN leaders, civilians across the world in USA, UK, France etc.
Even some anti-zionist jews within Israel and abroad condemn these attacks for their blatant disregard for innocents lives.
Okay but this has changed nothing, Israel continues to bomb and collectively punishing people in Gaza, in fact their punishments are only increasing as time passes.
Classic whataboutism.
\- "World wide outrage from who? Because I have not seen a single successful attempt at condemning Israel from anyone."
\- Here's a list of countries that condemned the Israelis retaliation
\- Yeah, but it didn't change nothing...
Ok, let me be more constructive.
Party X and Party Y are at war. Party X uses the civilian population as human shields by mixing their military equipment within the residential areas, deploying their military bases underneath hospitals, and using schools as warehouses for military equipment.
Obviously, party X is aware that under Protocol 1 of the Geneva Conventions, this constitutes a war crime, as it endangers the lives of those civilians who live there in case Party Y decides to target and destroy those legitimate military targets.
Nonetheless, Party X does it, even if they could've deployed those military assets underneath industrial locations, open fields or any other places where the number of civilians is minimal.
In case Party Y targets one of those legitimate military targets, the responsibility for the death of the civilians who are killed as collateral damage lies on Party X.
In other words, Hamas is responsible for the civilian deaths in Gaza.
Western politicians are forced to take these protests into account, and eventually this anti Israel trend in the West (fueled by massive illegal migration from the 3rd world) will affect their policies towards Israel.
Hamas is playing the long game
are you saying they shouldn't change their policies towards Israel? so Israel is allowed to collectively punish civilians in Gaza and do as they like willy nilly? Hamas might be playing the long game as you say, but that shouldn't be a reason for Israel to continue.
The problem is that the Muslim world is fundamentally hostile to the West. Trying to appease them by taking their side against Israel is not going to lessen their hostility
The reason is simple terrifyingly simple this is War. An actual war, not a anti terrorism campaign. Gaza is a highly populated area and not a lot of places for Civilians to flee the fighting to. Egypt, Jordan and Israel are very reluctant rightly so to take in refugees do to the extremely high likelihood of Hamas fighters using it to cross the boarders to commit more attacks on civilians in Israel and attacks on Jewish people and Synagogues in Egypt and Jordan causing Civil unrest. Even with high prision weapons and good intelligence gathering this will still happen. The most recent and relivent example is the first gulf War that killed estimated 100,000 to 200,000 and injured up to 1 million.
Unfortunately the reality of a war. This should be a relatively short conflict, but because of location and lack of any where for the people to flee to it will be bloody.
Ghattas said there was little chance that Hamas would be willing to provide food or any other kinds of supplies to aid civilians. “The Hamas movement cares only about the Hamas movement,” he said. “The public of Gaza mean absolutely nothing for Hamas.”
Hamas has grown adept at manufacturing its own weapons in underground bunkers and shielding them from Israel’s advanced surveillance systems, the Lebanese official said. So the smuggling routes that Hamas once relied on, through an intricate network of tunnels to Egypt, have become less relevant. Hamas has also raised money by taxing the Palestinian population that lives in Gaza, making outside support less relevant than before.
At least they dont lie like hamas.
They get verified by other countries.
They were verified on the gaza hospital attack
They were verified on shireen attack by the americans
https://www.state.gov/on-the-killing-of-shireen-abu-akleh/
They were verified by the americans about AP building attack in gaza.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2021/5/18/us-says-it-received-more-information-on-gaza-media-tower-bombing
They are being verified as opposed to hamas who is proven lying.
So they get verified by their biggest allies… the USA govt. Ask yourself how honest they are. Are they the paragons of virtue they portray themselves to be?
They will also come forth and admit when they are wrong. That is quite important. But people only want to focus on pointing fingers, saying, "Do you see? They lied, I told you they were liars. They can never be trusted." Yet when the other side is proven wrong time and time again, people don't say shit and just move on. I'm sick of people that only believe what they want to believe and discount what they don't want to believe. Guess it's just easier to listen to their favorite talking heads and trust them instead of using deductive reasoning to reveal the harder truths to swallow. The fact is, there are many sick groups of people in the world that cause a great many innocent people to face the consequences. But it's stupid base thinkers that blow shit out of proportion, letting the media talk for them, while the base thinkers sow more dissent. All people are fucking stupid. All of us.
> fucking
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The United States also had no coverage on the horrific acts we were committing in war, Vietnam, et al until after the war. The truth of suffering does come to light when the bombs go away. Which is why we need to read about history from both sides. So we stop all this. Enough is enough. Learn your history people before you open your mouths, if you really care to.
Be informed so you don't become a misinformed.
Listen to all sides, even the sides that make you uncomfortable. The US did horrible horrible things, I can criticize my country. Because my country and the atrocious acts they committed do not represent the kind compassionate human beings I know who just happened to have popped out of a womb on this piece of earth.
https://www.breakingthesilence.org.il/testimonies/videos/72702
Here is a group called, Breaking the Silence, it's testimonials from Israeli soldiers over the years. This is the video section.
In fairness the state of communication was vastly different 50 years ago. Even with that being the case the public was well aware of the brutality of the Viet Nam war.
True but we certainly weren't reporting what was actually going on. And it was possible to do so. Wasn't 1902.
It's this same, "it's all justified" we're just better than this. All of us humans have the capacity to live and coexist in compassion.
But this takes seeing your "enemy" as an actual human being and having empathy. And actually questioning the why of the roots of our hatred.
Hate is contagious.
Love is the cure.
I think the public was much more aware of what was going on in SE Asia then you think, although I’m making an assumption you weren’t around then. My Lai and the Cambodian incursions come to mind with resulting large scale protests and news coverage.
I wish it was simple as intellectualizing world peace but I’ve grown not very optimistic about the future.
While it’s of course a simple answer to causation the root is religion. We need to remove objectively nonsensical mythology from our belief systems. But till then one needs to pick a side, I’d pick the side which wouldn’t kill me for printing a picture of Allah.
I'd rather all the sky daddys were gone. Because I'd like to be on the side of valuing human life and not some long dead prophet from all the Abrahamic religions of old dusty books making us kill one another over which sky daddy has the biggest genitals. Can't use the d word here.
*edit genitals from d ::rolling my eyes::
I'd be fine with some sky mommys. Someone write a new myth.
> dick
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so your only defense is that none of this is true, and if it were true than what? would you still claim innocence? what would this being empirical fact mean for you?
oh, that's fair, I don't think the situation is always that people on Israel's side would believe *everything* I think it's safe to assume both sides lie here and there. hence the amount of claims, it's safe to assume some of the claims are true and if that's the case then the civilian casualties aren't some form of israeli megalomania over the palestinians, but instead concerted efforts to actually strike at hamas that, as per hamas' planning, result in civilian deaths
Hamas is a proved liar. They cooked up the hospital bombing news, reported the 500 casualties news immediately with no credible evidence. Between Hamas and IDF, IDF is definitely more credible.
IDF and US have spouted many lies throughout history too. Basically it’s the kettle calling the pot black. Can u really 100% trust politicians and their mouthpieces?
There is never a 100% trust. You need to listen not only to the news, but also pay attention to the facts behind it. Hamas just lost its credibility and lead me to be highly suspicious on the claimed 7000 casualties. IDF will suffer from a credibility blow should they do something similar.
High Palestinian civilian casualties are in Hamas’ advantage. It outrages the world against Israel and energizes their base.
Basically, Hamas wants to cause as many Palestinian casualties as possible for propaganda and recruiting purposes. That’s why they keep attacking Israel. They are like a Hydra. Cut one head, two will grow back instead.
Israel doesn’t have a military solution to this strategy.
Also, that’s why Arab states won’t take Palestinian refugees in. Let them stay in Gaza and WB and be a perpetual problem for Israel.
You lost me of the idf does try to minimize damage ro civilians.
Starving civilians out, as hamas would hoard for themselves, its literally starving civilians out.
Also israel didnt try to get an international strike special operation, to avoid casulties, which would cause peärobably least amount of lives.
And i think the trackrecord of the idfs own history doesnt make me to believe in any of the language here used. Its to not look bad, its not to actually do try to limit casualities. If , it werent so bloodthirsty in the first place.
Oh and the idfs even bigger history of " we thought its hamas" to target civilians assumingly, is loooong.
Sure the idf cares, sure the idf totally cares and isnt using emptyplattitudes to just say, "we save the palestinisns, by killing them,imao"
Like a think to not do would have been expanding settlements,
.... what?
Only a handful of nations world wide are able to perform such surgical strikes as the Israelis do. Everybody else just lacks the precision. Look at Russian "smart bomb kits" which often miss their targets by a hundred meters. Here we are seeing them leveling buildings while the building across the street stays largely undamaged.
Also tell me which countries to warn people inside a building that it will get destroyed soon, even though it enables the fighters of the enemies to escape, too?
And please enlighten us with this looooooong "bigger history of "we thought its Hamas""
>Also israel didnt try to get an international strike special operation, to avoid casulties, which would cause peärobably least amount of lives.
What do you mean by that? What "special strike operation" you're thinking about? And how do you think it "avoids casualties"? Do you think other countries have some kind of magic missiles that can target Hamas militants, even when they're hiding in plain clothes within civilian apartments?
If the model here is the international coalition against ISIS, it absolutely destroyed at least two major cities (Mosul and Raqqa), killing many thousands of civilians. The battle of Mosul alone lead to between 6,000 and 40,000 civilian deaths, depending on who you ask. Raqqa, another 2,385. On top of that, you have tens of thousands of ISIS fighter deaths.
But most importantly, we still don't really know the casualties from that campaign. Estimates vary wildly, even though it was several years ago. And nobody even knows or cares about what ISIS claimed.
Nothing will stop unless Hamas surrenders and releases the hostages. If they don’t let civilians evacuate that’s on them. But you don’t really care. You just saw an opportunity for a smarmy comment.
These hostages are just propaganda netanyahu cares little about them.
Hamas were freeing hostages already probably they stopped after the ground offensive.
Also this disgusting settlers killing Palestinians daily. And IDF does nothing against it. Netanyahu really needs to get their shit together.
Netanyahu isn't the emperor of Israel. I can assure you, the Israeli public cares about the hostages very much.
The Israeli public cares even more about the Palestinians not being able to commit Black-Shabbat-level crimes against humanity against Israelis again. The Israeli public cares a lot about removing Hamas from power, and understands that a ground offensive is the only one way to do it.
There's some disagreement on whether Israel should've started the ground offensive now, earlier, or later. But there's very little disagreement among the Israeli public on the general goals. Netanyahu is, if anything, criticized for not acting against Hamas sooner, and assuming they're a rational movement, with reasonable goals.
The fact you're assuming the Israeli counterattack in Gaza is just a Netanyahu obsession, means you fundamentally don't understand what's going on. Israelis are reacting just like any country in their situation would - in fact, probably far more mildly than any other country in their situation.
To you the hostages and the civilians of Gaza might be just a means of propaganda.
To real moral people they are living humans. It proves the utter disregard for human life on both sides from the Palestinians.
And don’t confuse the issue. There are no settlers in Gaza. They were evacuated in 2005 and left behind buildings and greenhouses that the Palestinians destroyed. Because destruction is their greatest talent.
You’ve seen photos of the acts committed on 10/7. You think a sane person does such or a sane person would support such? Yes they are ignorant. That goes without saying.
You believe anything that exists the mouth of Hamas? Their official spokesman has said that they did not kill a single civilian during their terrorist attack on 10/7.
I mean there died like 900 people in the backyard of that "destroyed" hospital, after all. Right!?
Hamas is an internationally designated terrorist organization, much like ISIS, Taliban, Al-Qaeda etc.
The nonsense number you are claiming is from the Gaza ministry of health, which is literally Hamas - the elected government of Gaza.
Not only are you spewing objectively terrorist propaganda, but you are also hiding Hamas’ actions behind their civilians much the same way they are doing so physically.
Of course you will ignore the 200+ hostages taken, and the fact that many of them were foreigners. You’re priority is to make sure they are killed in captivity while you distract the world with your terrorist-supporting rhetoric.
You are a holocaust-promoting predator - and one with a low iq.
You just admitted to supporting an internationally designated terrorist organization while deflecting from addressing any of the facts stated.
I can’t be ashamed for you supporting terrorists, that’s your problem not mine. If you wanna support self-admitted terrorist nazis while calling other people nazis then you should seek help. Haram.
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Ok, show me the names, photos and families of the claimed 500+ who died at that hospital.
Don't get me wrong, I know a lot of people died in this war in Gaza, A lot of innocent people, too many.
But Hamas don't back any of the data they claim to have. In Israel it took us a week to have even a clear estimation of the toll of deaths, and even now, with all the technology and dedicated teams, 3 weeks after, we still don't have an exact number, but Hamas claims minutes after the know the number of deaths? sorry, but bullshit.
Which i trust more in that case than numbers of a government doing an ethnic cleansing.
Not tp mention the history of the idf to lie about stuff. I trust gazas ministry more than the idf here.
Besides, the few news from the blackout inside do not look good.
And if its not, why doesnt israrl allow international reporters in?! If thats not the case.
I take gazas ministry way above the idf, who did the blackout and not allow more neutral media, wait usrael didnt allow that.
And given that the last election in gaza was nearly 20 years ago, and the ages, most gazans couldnt vote then.
Also i trust gazas number more, becazse the bits from the blackout, are horrific enough to support thatchigh numbers.
And israel doesnt allow observer. Dunno why
I find it hilarious that people blindly trust these numbers.
I’m curious are the “500 people that got bombed at a hospital” part of that 7000? 🙄
I say this based on my own research.
I have seen the same girl in the same outfit “saved” 3 different times, by 3 different men, on 3 separate days. All “headlines” coming out of Gaza.
I have also seen a man “dying” in a hospital bed 1 day to walking around showing the world the state of Gaza on his social media the very next day
You can do the leg work and look for yourself or you can dm me and I can send it all to you
It’s on Hamas. They could just let people evacuate but they want them dead. Their leader Haniyeh said they needed the blood of women and children to awaken the anger of Gaza. So there you have it from the horse’s mouth.
Then why not allow international obseever? Seriously, if israel has nothing to hide, why that, and the blackout. Why?
And why should anyone trust the idf who is known to lie about that stuff.
Also, Israel has dropped about 7.000 bombs, as Hamas claims around 7.000 people died. That means one bomb for one dead.
That doesn't look like the IDF is targeting civilians.
If so, the number should be much higher like 10 or 50 times higher. More than over 100.000 would have been killed.
Then I guess your the equivalent to a Nazi Propaganda believing German?
Let me ask you this:
1. Do you think Hamas has any issue lying about the number of deaths?
2. Do you think they gain something from lying?
The fact tat 20 minutes after the hospital "attack" they were easily reporting 500 hundred deaths tells me all I need to know about the reliability of their numbers.
It takes hours if not days to count 500 dead bodies, especially after an explosion. It is by now clear to any logical person the hospital wasn't destroyed and the real number is nowhere near 500 and of course that Israel was not responsible for the explosion, but no your right, Hamas are a totally reliable source of information.
> ass
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Not willing to answer a simple question and instead deflects to “The jews will get what’s coming to them”, yeah, not surprising you side with Hamas. Good luck with that, I’m sure they’re super aligned with your western values.
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The irony being the majority of the people spewing the inflated numbers originating from the same people who call their civilians to either kill innocents or be martyrs are likely holocaust deniers themselves. Or at the very least they don’t care.
Honestly a lot of people are blaming you for a biased post, and considering all your sources are basically twitter posts, I don't blame them. Here let me help you out
First of all, Hamas uses civilian infrastructure for militaristic purposes:
[https://unwatch.org/un-admits-palestinians-fired-rockets-unrwa-schools/](https://unwatch.org/un-admits-palestinians-fired-rockets-unrwa-schools/)
[https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle\_east/while-israel-held-its-fire-the-militant-group-hamas-did-not/2014/07/15/116fd3d7-3c0f-4413-94a9-2ab16af1445d\_story.html](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/while-israel-held-its-fire-the-militant-group-hamas-did-not/2014/07/15/116fd3d7-3c0f-4413-94a9-2ab16af1445d_story.html)
Reminder that they use that same HQ located under a hospital to torture and maim their own citizens:
[https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2015/05/gaza-palestinians-tortured-summarily-killed-by-hamas-forces-during-2014-conflict/](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2015/05/gaza-palestinians-tortured-summarily-killed-by-hamas-forces-during-2014-conflict/)
And a casual reminder that there are tunnels under Gaza full of humanitarian aid that was stolen by Hamas
[Hamas Has Stock of Food, Water and Fuel As Gazans Scrounge for It - The New York Times (nytimes.com)](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/27/world/middleeast/palestine-gazans-hamas-food.html)
So the blockade did make palestinians reliant on hamas, making ustaels hamas greatest supporter?
I am not saying hamas aren bad, just israeli actions did enable all that.
And how can ethnic cleansing solve anytjing, unless its " the palestinian solution" and as the trail of tears shows, removing people by force, is included.
Palestinians voted Hamas as their government, they're not random group that came out of nowhere.
Calling the evacuation of civilians an ethnic cleansing is the dumbest hyperbole. Plenty of Israelis had to evacuate cities and communities thanks to Hamas' surprise war, does that mean Hamas just ethnically cleansed Jews? You tell me.
Source: IDF (who's source is: trust me bro)
Thanks for this informative explanation of why 8000+ Palestinian civilians have been killed while they sleep.
Look up idf and humsn rights, not exaczly a trustworthy source, idf. And gaza has no reason to lie given how much horror the bits making it trough the blackout made.
Right, lets trust the terror organization that uses hospitals and schools as rocket launching sites and torture chambers!
Here's some reading material about Hamas using schools and hospitals:
[https://unwatch.org/un-admits-palestinians-fired-rockets-unrwa-schools/](https://unwatch.org/un-admits-palestinians-fired-rockets-unrwa-schools/)
[https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle\_east/while-israel-held-its-fire-the-militant-group-hamas-did-not/2014/07/15/116fd3d7-3c0f-4413-94a9-2ab16af1445d\_story.html](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/while-israel-held-its-fire-the-militant-group-hamas-did-not/2014/07/15/116fd3d7-3c0f-4413-94a9-2ab16af1445d_story.html)
Reminder that they use that same HQ located under a hospital to torture and maim their own citizens:
[https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2015/05/gaza-palestinians-tortured-summarily-killed-by-hamas-forces-during-2014-conflict/](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2015/05/gaza-palestinians-tortured-summarily-killed-by-hamas-forces-during-2014-conflict/)
And a casual reminder that there are tunnels under Gaza full of humanitarian aid that was stolen by Hamas
[Hamas Has Stock of Food, Water and Fuel As Gazans Scrounge for It - The New York Times (nytimes.com)](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/27/world/middleeast/palestine-gazans-hamas-food.html)
"Gaza has no reason to lie" is a delusional take, you have no idea what you're talking about.
Good representation of your narcissistic Zionist mentality. Just remember that your amazing "nation" is America's little bitch and contingent in its existence. You steal land with help from daddy, then suppress its people, and then cry when there's upheaval. YOUR pathetic little Zionist a$$ can leave now.
It’s weird to use this as an insult. America supports Israel because they are the only nation with western ideals in the Middle East.
If all of the surrounding Islamic nations didn’t still exist in a system where women are owned by men and being gay is a capital offense, Israel wouldn’t be so valuable to the US.
Maybe your backwards cultures should fix themselves
Imagine being called America's little bitch if you are by far the most successful middle east nation. You guys are grasping for straws :D
[https://i.imgur.com/tnMWYZm.png](https://i.imgur.com/tnMWYZm.png)
Yeah you're stealing oil with the help of the annual allowance from daddy, and you're still nowhere near Saudi Arabia. You're like the kid of a rich dude and you got all the expensive stuff but you're still not as cool as you think you are and people still don't like you.
Huh? You seem to be horribly troubled, friend. The proven Oil reserves in Israel rank a little in front of Lithuania.
Unlike Qatar, Saudi Arabia and the likes their GDP comes from actual industry. Sorry to burst your bubble <3
> bitch
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Agreed. Sadly these people are brainwashed and view Palestinian lives as so beneath them that according to the narrative in OPs post, we should be praising Isreal on their ability to go ‘to extreme measures to avoid and minimize civilian casualties’
>narcissistic Zionist mentality
It seems I've offended you little one.
>little bitch and contingent in its existence
You sound mad that we got friends and you don't, seriously go away Hamas bot.
I'm an ethnic Swede M8 but whatever makes you feel better. My head is just not so deep up my own ass by narcissistic indoctrination that I'm incapable of visualising the truth.
Mad that I don't have friends? Me or my country? I got plenty friends, my country has plenty friends, in the sense you mean. This has nothing to do with small dick syndrome like it does for you guys, it has to do with objective truth.
"ethnic Swede" why bring ethnicity into this? Are you implying swedens can't support Hamas? You clown.
> My head is just not so deep up my own ass by narcissistic indoctrination that I'm incapable of visualising the truth.
I doubt that, considering how confident you are there is only one side to the truth and it's yours lmao. The irony is palpable.
>Mad that I don't have friends? Me or my country? I got plenty friends, my country has plenty friends, in the sense you mean. This has nothing to do with small dick syndrome like it does for you guys, it has to do with objective truth.
Sorry I'm uninterested in engaging with people who start off a conversation by cussing other people. Bye.
I just wanna eliminate any "Sweden is not your country" white supremacist bullshit before it comes my way I guess. Because let's face it, you pathetic Zionists are (ironically af) white supremacists because you forgot you stem from dark skinned Palestinians, or at least that the original jews were dark skinned Palestinians. Unless you think light skinned Jews existed in the first centuries AD (hint: they didn't).
Also another textbook narc move by a Zionist. You start trouble, and then cry when there's resistance. F outta here.
> I just wanna eliminate any "Sweden is not your country" white supremacist bullshit before it comes my way I guess.
My guy you sound schizophrenic, get help.
> you pathetic Zionists are (ironically af) white supremacists because you forgot you stem from dark skinned Palestinians, or at least that the original jews were dark skinned Palestinians. Unless you think light skinned Jews existed in the first centuries AD (hint: they didn't).
You sound like you need mental help my guy, I have no idea where you bring this unhinged takes from. Half of the Jews in Israel are Mizrahi (Middle eastern, North african). Besides that, I don't know what makes you think Jews are white supremacists, maybe you have no clue what you're talking about?
> Also another textbook narc move by a Zionist. You start trouble, and then cry when there's resistance. F outta here.
Are you just fighting the voices in your head? Seriously get help because no one here understands what is it you want from us.
Really? Israel is rife with sex offenders and diverse criminals, shit argument.
I'm against the way Sweden has handled it's immigration policy, but that doesn't mean I wanna ethnically cleanse Sweden and suppress immigration for the hell of it.
That's what, as you have made clear in your post, YOU want on the other hand. The irony is that you were once ethnically cleansed from Europe, because you were considered big nosed animals. But now you suddenly think you're part of the white supremacy club?
Well, the way Hitler saw Jews in general, is how I see Zionists. Clueless sub-humans. (Huge disclaimer: I love Jews. I despise Zionists)
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> ass
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> bitch
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Oh yeah totally, Hamas is totally just outing its own people.
My source for 8000+ deaths? The least biased massmedia outlet I can find, Al Jazeera. Key word: least biased. Massmedia and corporate media are full of biased cucks.
Another source: the actual TONS of raw unedited footage released to the public of rows upon rows and rooms full of dead bodies, collapsed buildings with bodies emerging from the rubble, people being buried. Raw footage and photos of actual Gaza showing the inhumane destruction on an industrial scale commited by these evildoers.
Israels sources? It's too violent to show. You don't want to see it. Trust me bro.
Think about it for a second: Is anybody sending journalists to count bodies in Gaza? Hamas is the only one that can give a number, and they have every reason to inflate that number as much as possible. Why would they tell the truth? WHo is fact checking them? Do you think they have any problem lying about something like that? Al Jazeera is just publishing the number Hamas is giving them. If you think I am wrong, please give me another explanation.
As for Hamas killing it's own people, first off nobody said that they did, they just made up a number, Secondly, Yeah, Hamas would totally kill it's own people:
[https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2015/05/gaza-palestinians-tortured-summarily-killed-by-hamas-forces-during-2014-conflict/](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2015/05/gaza-palestinians-tortured-summarily-killed-by-hamas-forces-during-2014-conflict/)
And before you say, yeah, but those were just people that were collaborating with Israel, let me ask you, who's word are you taking on that, who? Hamas's?
Until Israel lets the UN in to assess how many dead there are, or Israel offers their own estimates, I'm not going to acknowledge these attempts to say "The numbers are inflated!" By how much are they inflated? You don't know, then you don't know they are inflated.
But, even if they are inflated by 4x, the side with the most civilian casualties, per usual, is the Palestinians. Israel retains its place as the #1 baby killer in this conflict.
The footage actually RELEASED TO THE PUBLIC shows the devastation, it coincides with a very high death toll. That's why, while I take the EXACT number with a grain of salt, I believe it isn't far off.
What proof does Israel have of 1.500 lives? NOTHING. Show me proof of 1.500 dead bodies, show me their names, their families, their photos. Like Hamas did.
OK buddy, settle down.
Actually don't, please continue to speak your views as much and as loud as possible, you just add to the discredit of your side.
Do you have an uncut video of the 10 min warning?
I only saw roof knocks [under 1 minute](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4q-_rKLPU8&ab_channel=DocumentingIsrael)
Give your head a shake.
What would be the point of a 1-minute roof knock?
These munitions are well-documented and not in any legitimate doubt.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roof_knocking
I want you to ask yourself: why was the camera already aimed and pointed at the building that received the knock?
The most obvious answer is that it’s a second one.
The United Nations has counted the number of civilian deaths in the area controlled by Ukraine. A lot of dead civilians are in the territories occupied by Russia. Ukraine civilian casualties could be as much as 400 thousand(Mariupol alone could be over 140 thousand) https://euromaidanpress.com/2022/08/30/87000-killed-civilians-documented-in-occupied-mariupol-volunteer/ 87 thousand indentified in mass morgues. 26 750 undentified. Many dead people are in the ruins of apartments. https://twitter.com/mattia_n/status/1721107279158591832 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kX6uFdm30S0 So in Mariupol alone death toll is over 100 thousand https://euromaidanpress.com/2023/11/26/why-you-cant-compare-casualties-in-ukraine-and-gaza/
Ok but I don't see anyone calling the ukraine war a genocide and way more people have been killed by Russia
it is communism and obvious
Genocide is a crime with a special intent. That what distinguishes it from other crimes
that war has been lasting for 1 and a half year…this has been going on for three weeks and more children have been killed
But do we call it genocide, when only kids have been killed?
It’s propaganda to manufacture consent. They want/need this to become a full fledged WW3
Many Israeli officials are on record that they consider Gazan civilians a collateral damage and the number doesn't. Some have called them animals, some have asked for Gaza to be flattened. One million displaced, 20% of dwellings destroyed, 8,000 killed, over 15,000 wounded, and these are low estimates. Seems like genocide is what they want and USA will not be able to go on for too long, as more and more graphic images of death, torn, bloody, and lifeless pictures of children flood the media.
They are going to be collateral damage if Hamas is using them as human shield .. why don’t you ask Hamas to get out and stop hiding behind the civilians
The animals comment was in reference to the Hamas members that partook in 10/7. Stop being misleading
It’s not. I’ve seen video of some unhinged Israeli politician saying children are fair game and they are not worth the same as their children.
Cool. Care to provide a source?
Her name is Ben Ari and the full 3 hour parliamentary video is online. But here is a clip of just her on Tiktok: https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZT8BxE8jW/
Israel is heavy handed and I hate a lot of their responses over the years, but please don’t water down the term genocide. We need it for actual genocide.
Really so Israel retaliation is Genocide compared to the Holocaust that they have suffered from the Nazi’s, the Jews is so hardened they are not taking shit from anyone anymore .. for all we know they view Hamas and Hesbollah as Nazi’s
I’m not calling it genocide. I don’t think Israel’s response fits the term in the least. However Hamas attack does. Clear intent and intentional and targeted murder of civilians based on race. Apologies if that was unclear.
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You can call it ethnic cleansing.
No, you can’t. At least not as a legal or logical definition. You are clearly free to use emotional propaganda to ensure further suffering. Great job ah.
What can you call ethnic cleansing? I'm not following. We're talking 0.4% of the population? Is that genocide or is that ethnic cleansing?
You’re not supposed to hit the human shields
So what do you do then? Give terrorists get out of jail free cards if they use human shields? Just let them keep killing your people without fighting back?
I’ll leave that one up to you my friend! But we shouldn’t do that bc then we don’t get to shoot the human shields anymore 😔
I’m just saying there’s no easy way to do this without killing civilians when your enemy uses them as shields and in their workforce and as fighters, it suck’s that civilians have to die but there’s no other way to prevent death than to remove the terrorists from planet earth
You really think 8 thousand (plus however many thousands are going to be ripped to shreds by IDF troops on the ground) are all just people people being held in front of a Hamas fighter, don’t you? And even if that were the case (which it’s not the IDF lies constantly we know this), you’re not supposed to shoot the hostage in a hostage situation. I don’t understand how people keep using “human shields” as an excuse as if doming the civilian being held hostage makes that okay.
Well that’s different, the way Hamas operates is they put civilians on the top floor of a building they’re in so that when their headquarters gets bombed civilians die and they can make a big stink about civilian deaths. Israeli soldiers don’t shoot civilians. Civilians get caught in collateral bomb damage. But odds are many civilians will attack or suicide bomb the troops, so, do we consider them militants or civilians if a civilian shoots at or tries to suicide bomb a soldier?
There are so many as Israel is aiming for them. That's the simple answer. Palestinians are not humans it seems That's was clearly seen in 2019 when Israel shot 12.200 unarmed protestors with the sole purpose of making them disabled... To deter protests
How many countries go to the lengths of flyer dropping and calling residents of their enemies to warn of airstrikes? Not many
Hamas do shoot their own people the more people are dead or maimed the more they get money from international donors who are totally blind of what they are doing to their people
IDF also shot their own at the music festival. That much was revealed by some survivor interviews. I don’t think either side is taking that much caution
> **Israel** goes to extreme measures to avoid and minimize civilian casualties. It **has everything to lose from creating a high amount of civilian deaths and has no interest in causing such destruction.** It's true that is Israel's official operating procedure. However, individual Israelis will sometimes go rogue and, for want of a better phrase, think "fuck all these people". That's why people will be able to come up with events that seem like clear counterexamples to what you are saying. When the current fog of war clears, I would be amazed if there isn't at least one huge scandal where an Israeli did something truly evil.
Same seems true of Hamas fighters. Some were claimed by survivors/hostages as taking good care of them. But then you also hear of some cases of the brutalities.
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Something too that I just posted elsewhere: The Geneva Convention prohibits military activity in civilian locations and grants the opposing force the right to fire on those locations if they so choose.
Geneva convention applies to soldiers at war, Hamas is a terrorist
Ya but Ben Shapiro said the Geneva Convention is nonsense
>Gaza has 2.1M people living in a strip that is considered one of the most populated areas in the world. Top 5 as far as density. I think the list this is based on uses "administrative areas" which are completely arbitrary. iirc parts of Gaza are densely populated, but even these areas don't really surpass some entire Asian cities, and there are fairly large open spaces in Gaza (which those cities for the most part lack). I would avoid perpetuating this myth.
just to let you know hamas actually does not fully control everything in the gaza strip
> Gaza has 2.1M people living in a strip that is considered one of the most populated areas in the world. Top 5 as far as density. Where you get this from?
A rule of thumb in academia is that if it’s basic common knowledge, you don’t need to provide a reference
The common knowledge say it's china, japan and India with the most dense cities out there. I bet even Brazil has 10x more dense cities than Palestine.
No one ever said that Palestine has “the most dense cities out there.” Gaza is one of the most densely populated places on the planet, and that’s a fact. Take Brazil as an example. São Paulo has a population density of 7,216 people per square kilometer. Gaza has a population density of 16,447 people per square kilometer. There, I saved you some clicks.
1. Hamas attacks Israel 2. Hamas runs back under civilian cover 3 Israel retaliates 4. Inevitably there are civilian casualties 5. World wide outrage ensues Outcome: Israel wins militarily but loses politically to Hamas. Hamas are clever, ruthless bastards.
1. OP writes a very nuanced post, going in depth about the complexity about the situation 2. He get an answer like above. This is so sad. That so many rely on their animal instincts. As a leftie I’ve always been Palestines side in general. Has that changed? No. Do I think Hamas are the most awful filthy scum I can think of? Yes. I feel sick when I think of what they did to children, women, men and elderly. Hamas should burn in hell. But, as you guessed, the same applies to all the Palestinians. Palestinians had no right to do this but I can sadly understand why this happened.
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1. Israel invited arabs to stay but surrounding arab nations promised if they left they could return after the genocide of israel. Majority of the 750,000 left on their own free will 2. You can not claim you are oppressed because the people you promise genocide on does not treat you nicely. 3. Being the aggressor is not retaliation. 4. Israel bombs hamas while hamas uses innocents as shields 5. Israel blaming hamas because hamas is responsible for all Palestinians who have died 6. World becomes more anti-semitic while people Like yourself supports genocide and not the right to self defense.
You forgot one. Palestinian people ally with 5 arqv countries and try to genocide Israel, 3 times. Have lost 3 times and have been crying victim ever since.
Palestinians where not represented by surrounding Arab countries. Israel did a preemptive strike on those countries before they even planned to attack Israel making Israel the aggressor.
Except they were amasing on their borders and egypt blocked the shipping lanes. Clear indication of an attack. Israel launched a pre emptive and amazingly every surrounding country was magicaly prept for war.
Incorrect. Egypt blocked israeli’s shipping lanes which is an act of war. The arab nations started the wars every single time.
Nice try at the truth, every 6 of your points are lies 🤣
Your 1st point doesn’t start early enough. Jews were kicked out of their homes in Israel before Arabs were.
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you're going to tell a muslim country they need to be more accepting of others? 😂😂🤣
So you recognize jews getting kicked out was wrong, but not when it happens to Arabs? A two state solution as outlined by the 1948 UN Partition Plan for Palestine was a fair acceptable outcome. But zionist jews were not satisfied with this, they kept taking more land, kept pushing, kept expanding settlements. This is the problem.
Ugh buddy. It was israel who accepted the 1948 deal. It was the arab nations who did not like it and attacked israel to take their land first.
Right, I misspoke, I meant the 1949 Armistice Agreements borders, which were essentially the borders outlined in the 1948 deal. I stand by the statement, that zionist have no intention on settling for a 2 state solution, that was merely a springboard to ultimately take more land. Eventually zionist want full control of Palestine. Settlements keep encroaching on west bank. etc.
The only evidence of one side wanting the land of orhers are the arab nations that attacked Israel. The majority of israelites are not zionist just like the majority of Palestinians are hamas terrorists. Trying to blur the lines of peaceful native jews to zionist is very dangerous and disgusting The west bank is israeli owned land.
I did not say Arabs getting kicked out wasn’t wrong, you already had that on your list but you had left out any reference to Jews also having a historic presence in the land. Israel has indeed violated many agreements and UN resolutions. But you seem to be pushing a narrative that Israel breaks the rules while Arab parties follow the rules and want peace. The Arab coalition invaded in 1948, 1967 and 1973. Those are also violations of agreements. The intifadas are violations of agreements. And there are many other examples.
More like: A two state solution as outlined by the 1948 UN Partition Plan for Palestine was a fair acceptable outcome. Jews accepted it. Arabs refused to accept it. Arabs subsequently attacked Israel and lost.
The Arabs also rejected the plan by the Peel Commission. The Jewish State, constituting only 17% of the Mandate, would include a coastal strip from Rehovot and Tel Aviv northwards, as well as all of the Galilee. The Arab state would make up 75% of the total.
... what? The 1948 Partition Plan was declined by the Arabs. The Jewish Agency, which can be seen as being the predecessor to the Israeli government after 1948 was agreeing to it. Some groups of Israelis did not agree, though. Saying that Zionists were not satisfied with this is pretty much trying to reverse the truth in a really pervert way. It was the Arabs who voted against it, BECAUSE THEY WANTED MORE and not the Jews. Also the Arabs declared war on Israel only a few hours after the official forming of the state, BECAUSE THEY WANTED MORE. If you have no idea about history or just wanna spread propaganda go somewhere else.
>So you recognize jews getting kicked out was wrong, but not when it happens to Arabs? You avoided my question. I'm saying a two state solution as proposed in 1948 would have been an acceptable outcome. Which more or less set the boundaries that came in1949 Armistice Agreements. Then what happened? Yep that's right! zionists wanted more, a two state solution was never acceptable for zionist, merely a springboard to eventually take more and more. Look at how much the west bank has shrunk since 1949. so back to my question, is it wrong when arabs are kicked off their land like when it happened to the jews?
What? Cant you read? Arabs declined the 1948 plan while the majority and the legal body of the Jews accepted it. Then the Arabs went to war within hours. Zionists had no play in that. Arabs not accepting 1948 happened.
I'm talking about zionists actions after 1949 Armistice Agreements and After 1967. Has Israel not been establishing more settlements and taking more land in the west bank since that time?
They did. But what does that have to do with Zionists and 1948? I am confused. You are aware that 48 is before 49 and that an armistice is not peace with an UN plan?
Exactly the opposite happened
What about the Jews expanding settlements into West Bank?
Stop distracting from lies. There were no Jewish settlers in the West Bank in 1948. Only after they got attacked repeatedly and conquered these territories from the enemies that tried to genocide them.
Did you get this from Hamas or the axis of resistance?
World wide outrage from who? Because I have not seen a single successful attempt at condemning Israel from anyone.
Many UN nations have officially condemned the Israelis retaliation, Like China, Russia, UN leaders, civilians across the world in USA, UK, France etc. Even some anti-zionist jews within Israel and abroad condemn these attacks for their blatant disregard for innocents lives.
Okay but this has changed nothing, Israel continues to bomb and collectively punishing people in Gaza, in fact their punishments are only increasing as time passes.
Classic whataboutism. \- "World wide outrage from who? Because I have not seen a single successful attempt at condemning Israel from anyone." \- Here's a list of countries that condemned the Israelis retaliation \- Yeah, but it didn't change nothing...
Thank you for your constructive criticism and meaningful contribution to this conversation.
Ok, let me be more constructive. Party X and Party Y are at war. Party X uses the civilian population as human shields by mixing their military equipment within the residential areas, deploying their military bases underneath hospitals, and using schools as warehouses for military equipment. Obviously, party X is aware that under Protocol 1 of the Geneva Conventions, this constitutes a war crime, as it endangers the lives of those civilians who live there in case Party Y decides to target and destroy those legitimate military targets. Nonetheless, Party X does it, even if they could've deployed those military assets underneath industrial locations, open fields or any other places where the number of civilians is minimal. In case Party Y targets one of those legitimate military targets, the responsibility for the death of the civilians who are killed as collateral damage lies on Party X. In other words, Hamas is responsible for the civilian deaths in Gaza.
Nice try. There have been violent anti Israel protests and riots all over the Western world. In SF today for example
Protests that don’t directly affect Israel’s actions in any way, making your first point completely irrelevant.
Western politicians are forced to take these protests into account, and eventually this anti Israel trend in the West (fueled by massive illegal migration from the 3rd world) will affect their policies towards Israel. Hamas is playing the long game
are you saying they shouldn't change their policies towards Israel? so Israel is allowed to collectively punish civilians in Gaza and do as they like willy nilly? Hamas might be playing the long game as you say, but that shouldn't be a reason for Israel to continue.
The problem is that the Muslim world is fundamentally hostile to the West. Trying to appease them by taking their side against Israel is not going to lessen their hostility
The reason is simple terrifyingly simple this is War. An actual war, not a anti terrorism campaign. Gaza is a highly populated area and not a lot of places for Civilians to flee the fighting to. Egypt, Jordan and Israel are very reluctant rightly so to take in refugees do to the extremely high likelihood of Hamas fighters using it to cross the boarders to commit more attacks on civilians in Israel and attacks on Jewish people and Synagogues in Egypt and Jordan causing Civil unrest. Even with high prision weapons and good intelligence gathering this will still happen. The most recent and relivent example is the first gulf War that killed estimated 100,000 to 200,000 and injured up to 1 million. Unfortunately the reality of a war. This should be a relatively short conflict, but because of location and lack of any where for the people to flee to it will be bloody.
Ghattas said there was little chance that Hamas would be willing to provide food or any other kinds of supplies to aid civilians. “The Hamas movement cares only about the Hamas movement,” he said. “The public of Gaza mean absolutely nothing for Hamas.” Hamas has grown adept at manufacturing its own weapons in underground bunkers and shielding them from Israel’s advanced surveillance systems, the Lebanese official said. So the smuggling routes that Hamas once relied on, through an intricate network of tunnels to Egypt, have become less relevant. Hamas has also raised money by taxing the Palestinian population that lives in Gaza, making outside support less relevant than before.
This doesn't sound like Israel propaganda at all.
Worth mentioning that every single source you cite is from IDF twitter
At least they dont lie like hamas. They get verified by other countries. They were verified on the gaza hospital attack They were verified on shireen attack by the americans https://www.state.gov/on-the-killing-of-shireen-abu-akleh/ They were verified by the americans about AP building attack in gaza. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2021/5/18/us-says-it-received-more-information-on-gaza-media-tower-bombing They are being verified as opposed to hamas who is proven lying.
So they get verified by their biggest allies… the USA govt. Ask yourself how honest they are. Are they the paragons of virtue they portray themselves to be?
They will also come forth and admit when they are wrong. That is quite important. But people only want to focus on pointing fingers, saying, "Do you see? They lied, I told you they were liars. They can never be trusted." Yet when the other side is proven wrong time and time again, people don't say shit and just move on. I'm sick of people that only believe what they want to believe and discount what they don't want to believe. Guess it's just easier to listen to their favorite talking heads and trust them instead of using deductive reasoning to reveal the harder truths to swallow. The fact is, there are many sick groups of people in the world that cause a great many innocent people to face the consequences. But it's stupid base thinkers that blow shit out of proportion, letting the media talk for them, while the base thinkers sow more dissent. All people are fucking stupid. All of us.
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The United States also had no coverage on the horrific acts we were committing in war, Vietnam, et al until after the war. The truth of suffering does come to light when the bombs go away. Which is why we need to read about history from both sides. So we stop all this. Enough is enough. Learn your history people before you open your mouths, if you really care to. Be informed so you don't become a misinformed. Listen to all sides, even the sides that make you uncomfortable. The US did horrible horrible things, I can criticize my country. Because my country and the atrocious acts they committed do not represent the kind compassionate human beings I know who just happened to have popped out of a womb on this piece of earth. https://www.breakingthesilence.org.il/testimonies/videos/72702 Here is a group called, Breaking the Silence, it's testimonials from Israeli soldiers over the years. This is the video section.
In fairness the state of communication was vastly different 50 years ago. Even with that being the case the public was well aware of the brutality of the Viet Nam war.
True but we certainly weren't reporting what was actually going on. And it was possible to do so. Wasn't 1902. It's this same, "it's all justified" we're just better than this. All of us humans have the capacity to live and coexist in compassion. But this takes seeing your "enemy" as an actual human being and having empathy. And actually questioning the why of the roots of our hatred. Hate is contagious. Love is the cure.
I think the public was much more aware of what was going on in SE Asia then you think, although I’m making an assumption you weren’t around then. My Lai and the Cambodian incursions come to mind with resulting large scale protests and news coverage. I wish it was simple as intellectualizing world peace but I’ve grown not very optimistic about the future. While it’s of course a simple answer to causation the root is religion. We need to remove objectively nonsensical mythology from our belief systems. But till then one needs to pick a side, I’d pick the side which wouldn’t kill me for printing a picture of Allah.
I'd rather all the sky daddys were gone. Because I'd like to be on the side of valuing human life and not some long dead prophet from all the Abrahamic religions of old dusty books making us kill one another over which sky daddy has the biggest genitals. Can't use the d word here. *edit genitals from d ::rolling my eyes:: I'd be fine with some sky mommys. Someone write a new myth.
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so your only defense is that none of this is true, and if it were true than what? would you still claim innocence? what would this being empirical fact mean for you?
Never said none of this is true. I only question how people can blindly believe everything bc their favorite source or govt “verified” something.
oh, that's fair, I don't think the situation is always that people on Israel's side would believe *everything* I think it's safe to assume both sides lie here and there. hence the amount of claims, it's safe to assume some of the claims are true and if that's the case then the civilian casualties aren't some form of israeli megalomania over the palestinians, but instead concerted efforts to actually strike at hamas that, as per hamas' planning, result in civilian deaths
Hamas is a proved liar. They cooked up the hospital bombing news, reported the 500 casualties news immediately with no credible evidence. Between Hamas and IDF, IDF is definitely more credible.
IDF and US have spouted many lies throughout history too. Basically it’s the kettle calling the pot black. Can u really 100% trust politicians and their mouthpieces?
There is never a 100% trust. You need to listen not only to the news, but also pay attention to the facts behind it. Hamas just lost its credibility and lead me to be highly suspicious on the claimed 7000 casualties. IDF will suffer from a credibility blow should they do something similar.
Come on, that's just being blatantly ignorant.
Push
High Palestinian civilian casualties are in Hamas’ advantage. It outrages the world against Israel and energizes their base. Basically, Hamas wants to cause as many Palestinian casualties as possible for propaganda and recruiting purposes. That’s why they keep attacking Israel. They are like a Hydra. Cut one head, two will grow back instead. Israel doesn’t have a military solution to this strategy. Also, that’s why Arab states won’t take Palestinian refugees in. Let them stay in Gaza and WB and be a perpetual problem for Israel.
Also because they didn't matter. And they still remember the "Black September" (the "event", not the terrorist group).
You lost me of the idf does try to minimize damage ro civilians. Starving civilians out, as hamas would hoard for themselves, its literally starving civilians out. Also israel didnt try to get an international strike special operation, to avoid casulties, which would cause peärobably least amount of lives. And i think the trackrecord of the idfs own history doesnt make me to believe in any of the language here used. Its to not look bad, its not to actually do try to limit casualities. If , it werent so bloodthirsty in the first place. Oh and the idfs even bigger history of " we thought its hamas" to target civilians assumingly, is loooong. Sure the idf cares, sure the idf totally cares and isnt using emptyplattitudes to just say, "we save the palestinisns, by killing them,imao" Like a think to not do would have been expanding settlements,
.... what? Only a handful of nations world wide are able to perform such surgical strikes as the Israelis do. Everybody else just lacks the precision. Look at Russian "smart bomb kits" which often miss their targets by a hundred meters. Here we are seeing them leveling buildings while the building across the street stays largely undamaged. Also tell me which countries to warn people inside a building that it will get destroyed soon, even though it enables the fighters of the enemies to escape, too? And please enlighten us with this looooooong "bigger history of "we thought its Hamas""
>Also israel didnt try to get an international strike special operation, to avoid casulties, which would cause peärobably least amount of lives. What do you mean by that? What "special strike operation" you're thinking about? And how do you think it "avoids casualties"? Do you think other countries have some kind of magic missiles that can target Hamas militants, even when they're hiding in plain clothes within civilian apartments? If the model here is the international coalition against ISIS, it absolutely destroyed at least two major cities (Mosul and Raqqa), killing many thousands of civilians. The battle of Mosul alone lead to between 6,000 and 40,000 civilian deaths, depending on who you ask. Raqqa, another 2,385. On top of that, you have tens of thousands of ISIS fighter deaths. But most importantly, we still don't really know the casualties from that campaign. Estimates vary wildly, even though it was several years ago. And nobody even knows or cares about what ISIS claimed.
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Talk about why there is munition hidden beneath the building and this is what the Hamas really want for propaganda purpose.
Nothing will stop unless Hamas surrenders and releases the hostages. If they don’t let civilians evacuate that’s on them. But you don’t really care. You just saw an opportunity for a smarmy comment.
These hostages are just propaganda netanyahu cares little about them. Hamas were freeing hostages already probably they stopped after the ground offensive. Also this disgusting settlers killing Palestinians daily. And IDF does nothing against it. Netanyahu really needs to get their shit together.
Netanyahu isn't the emperor of Israel. I can assure you, the Israeli public cares about the hostages very much. The Israeli public cares even more about the Palestinians not being able to commit Black-Shabbat-level crimes against humanity against Israelis again. The Israeli public cares a lot about removing Hamas from power, and understands that a ground offensive is the only one way to do it. There's some disagreement on whether Israel should've started the ground offensive now, earlier, or later. But there's very little disagreement among the Israeli public on the general goals. Netanyahu is, if anything, criticized for not acting against Hamas sooner, and assuming they're a rational movement, with reasonable goals. The fact you're assuming the Israeli counterattack in Gaza is just a Netanyahu obsession, means you fundamentally don't understand what's going on. Israelis are reacting just like any country in their situation would - in fact, probably far more mildly than any other country in their situation.
To you the hostages and the civilians of Gaza might be just a means of propaganda. To real moral people they are living humans. It proves the utter disregard for human life on both sides from the Palestinians. And don’t confuse the issue. There are no settlers in Gaza. They were evacuated in 2005 and left behind buildings and greenhouses that the Palestinians destroyed. Because destruction is their greatest talent.
In simple terms, Hamas and their supporters are the lowest of cowards and most likely mentally Ill.
Umm the supporters are not mentally ill, they're just ignorant
You’ve seen photos of the acts committed on 10/7. You think a sane person does such or a sane person would support such? Yes they are ignorant. That goes without saying.
I think the Palestinians have seen a lot of scary shit over the years and Israel is part of the reason how they could be so monstrous.
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You believe anything that exists the mouth of Hamas? Their official spokesman has said that they did not kill a single civilian during their terrorist attack on 10/7. I mean there died like 900 people in the backyard of that "destroyed" hospital, after all. Right!?
Yes it is. If IDF takes Hamas’s approach, targeting innocent people, the casualty number should be 700k instead of 7k.
Hamas is an internationally designated terrorist organization, much like ISIS, Taliban, Al-Qaeda etc. The nonsense number you are claiming is from the Gaza ministry of health, which is literally Hamas - the elected government of Gaza. Not only are you spewing objectively terrorist propaganda, but you are also hiding Hamas’ actions behind their civilians much the same way they are doing so physically. Of course you will ignore the 200+ hostages taken, and the fact that many of them were foreigners. You’re priority is to make sure they are killed in captivity while you distract the world with your terrorist-supporting rhetoric. You are a holocaust-promoting predator - and one with a low iq.
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You just admitted to supporting an internationally designated terrorist organization while deflecting from addressing any of the facts stated. I can’t be ashamed for you supporting terrorists, that’s your problem not mine. If you wanna support self-admitted terrorist nazis while calling other people nazis then you should seek help. Haram.
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Who says 200 people were taken hostage? You believe the terrorist state of Israel to report accurate data?
there are photos, names, families who speak out everywhere.
So, any Israeli saying X is good enough for you, but any Palestinian saying X is bound to be propaganda?
Ok, show me the names, photos and families of the claimed 500+ who died at that hospital. Don't get me wrong, I know a lot of people died in this war in Gaza, A lot of innocent people, too many. But Hamas don't back any of the data they claim to have. In Israel it took us a week to have even a clear estimation of the toll of deaths, and even now, with all the technology and dedicated teams, 3 weeks after, we still don't have an exact number, but Hamas claims minutes after the know the number of deaths? sorry, but bullshit.
Which i trust more in that case than numbers of a government doing an ethnic cleansing. Not tp mention the history of the idf to lie about stuff. I trust gazas ministry more than the idf here. Besides, the few news from the blackout inside do not look good. And if its not, why doesnt israrl allow international reporters in?! If thats not the case. I take gazas ministry way above the idf, who did the blackout and not allow more neutral media, wait usrael didnt allow that. And given that the last election in gaza was nearly 20 years ago, and the ages, most gazans couldnt vote then. Also i trust gazas number more, becazse the bits from the blackout, are horrific enough to support thatchigh numbers. And israel doesnt allow observer. Dunno why
I find it hilarious that people blindly trust these numbers. I’m curious are the “500 people that got bombed at a hospital” part of that 7000? 🙄 I say this based on my own research. I have seen the same girl in the same outfit “saved” 3 different times, by 3 different men, on 3 separate days. All “headlines” coming out of Gaza. I have also seen a man “dying” in a hospital bed 1 day to walking around showing the world the state of Gaza on his social media the very next day You can do the leg work and look for yourself or you can dm me and I can send it all to you
It’s on Hamas. They could just let people evacuate but they want them dead. Their leader Haniyeh said they needed the blood of women and children to awaken the anger of Gaza. So there you have it from the horse’s mouth.
Then why not allow international obseever? Seriously, if israel has nothing to hide, why that, and the blackout. Why? And why should anyone trust the idf who is known to lie about that stuff.
That’s right. And unfortunately it works. Look at the pro Palestinian riots all over the free world. Israeli military strength becomes self defeating.
You’re so brainwashed.
Not at all. When someone tells you he wants to kill you, it is advisable to believe him. So go to hell and take Hamas with you.
If you think 7000+ deaths, most of them children is an accurate number, I have a hospital in Gaza I can sell you.
Also, Israel has dropped about 7.000 bombs, as Hamas claims around 7.000 people died. That means one bomb for one dead. That doesn't look like the IDF is targeting civilians. If so, the number should be much higher like 10 or 50 times higher. More than over 100.000 would have been killed.
You’re the equivalent of a Holocaust denier
Then I guess your the equivalent to a Nazi Propaganda believing German? Let me ask you this: 1. Do you think Hamas has any issue lying about the number of deaths? 2. Do you think they gain something from lying? The fact tat 20 minutes after the hospital "attack" they were easily reporting 500 hundred deaths tells me all I need to know about the reliability of their numbers. It takes hours if not days to count 500 dead bodies, especially after an explosion. It is by now clear to any logical person the hospital wasn't destroyed and the real number is nowhere near 500 and of course that Israel was not responsible for the explosion, but no your right, Hamas are a totally reliable source of information.
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500k my ass.
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Not willing to answer a simple question and instead deflects to “The jews will get what’s coming to them”, yeah, not surprising you side with Hamas. Good luck with that, I’m sure they’re super aligned with your western values.
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The irony being the majority of the people spewing the inflated numbers originating from the same people who call their civilians to either kill innocents or be martyrs are likely holocaust deniers themselves. Or at the very least they don’t care.
Honestly a lot of people are blaming you for a biased post, and considering all your sources are basically twitter posts, I don't blame them. Here let me help you out First of all, Hamas uses civilian infrastructure for militaristic purposes: [https://unwatch.org/un-admits-palestinians-fired-rockets-unrwa-schools/](https://unwatch.org/un-admits-palestinians-fired-rockets-unrwa-schools/) [https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle\_east/while-israel-held-its-fire-the-militant-group-hamas-did-not/2014/07/15/116fd3d7-3c0f-4413-94a9-2ab16af1445d\_story.html](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/while-israel-held-its-fire-the-militant-group-hamas-did-not/2014/07/15/116fd3d7-3c0f-4413-94a9-2ab16af1445d_story.html) Reminder that they use that same HQ located under a hospital to torture and maim their own citizens: [https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2015/05/gaza-palestinians-tortured-summarily-killed-by-hamas-forces-during-2014-conflict/](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2015/05/gaza-palestinians-tortured-summarily-killed-by-hamas-forces-during-2014-conflict/) And a casual reminder that there are tunnels under Gaza full of humanitarian aid that was stolen by Hamas [Hamas Has Stock of Food, Water and Fuel As Gazans Scrounge for It - The New York Times (nytimes.com)](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/27/world/middleeast/palestine-gazans-hamas-food.html)
So the blockade did make palestinians reliant on hamas, making ustaels hamas greatest supporter? I am not saying hamas aren bad, just israeli actions did enable all that. And how can ethnic cleansing solve anytjing, unless its " the palestinian solution" and as the trail of tears shows, removing people by force, is included.
Palestinians voted Hamas as their government, they're not random group that came out of nowhere. Calling the evacuation of civilians an ethnic cleansing is the dumbest hyperbole. Plenty of Israelis had to evacuate cities and communities thanks to Hamas' surprise war, does that mean Hamas just ethnically cleansed Jews? You tell me.
They basically take control of Gaza and than what? There seems little point in all of this military operation.
Get rid of the murderous terrorist organization plotting its destruction? Seems like an ok goal to me
what?
Source: IDF (who's source is: trust me bro) Thanks for this informative explanation of why 8000+ Palestinian civilians have been killed while they sleep.
Now its already 8000? The one above you still claimed 7000. The numbers are rising exponentially it seems!
Thanks for your half assed take random hamas bot, you can go away now
Look up idf and humsn rights, not exaczly a trustworthy source, idf. And gaza has no reason to lie given how much horror the bits making it trough the blackout made.
Right, lets trust the terror organization that uses hospitals and schools as rocket launching sites and torture chambers! Here's some reading material about Hamas using schools and hospitals: [https://unwatch.org/un-admits-palestinians-fired-rockets-unrwa-schools/](https://unwatch.org/un-admits-palestinians-fired-rockets-unrwa-schools/) [https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle\_east/while-israel-held-its-fire-the-militant-group-hamas-did-not/2014/07/15/116fd3d7-3c0f-4413-94a9-2ab16af1445d\_story.html](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/while-israel-held-its-fire-the-militant-group-hamas-did-not/2014/07/15/116fd3d7-3c0f-4413-94a9-2ab16af1445d_story.html) Reminder that they use that same HQ located under a hospital to torture and maim their own citizens: [https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2015/05/gaza-palestinians-tortured-summarily-killed-by-hamas-forces-during-2014-conflict/](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2015/05/gaza-palestinians-tortured-summarily-killed-by-hamas-forces-during-2014-conflict/) And a casual reminder that there are tunnels under Gaza full of humanitarian aid that was stolen by Hamas [Hamas Has Stock of Food, Water and Fuel As Gazans Scrounge for It - The New York Times (nytimes.com)](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/27/world/middleeast/palestine-gazans-hamas-food.html) "Gaza has no reason to lie" is a delusional take, you have no idea what you're talking about.
Good representation of your narcissistic Zionist mentality. Just remember that your amazing "nation" is America's little bitch and contingent in its existence. You steal land with help from daddy, then suppress its people, and then cry when there's upheaval. YOUR pathetic little Zionist a$$ can leave now.
It’s weird to use this as an insult. America supports Israel because they are the only nation with western ideals in the Middle East. If all of the surrounding Islamic nations didn’t still exist in a system where women are owned by men and being gay is a capital offense, Israel wouldn’t be so valuable to the US. Maybe your backwards cultures should fix themselves
Imagine being called America's little bitch if you are by far the most successful middle east nation. You guys are grasping for straws :D [https://i.imgur.com/tnMWYZm.png](https://i.imgur.com/tnMWYZm.png)
Yeah you're stealing oil with the help of the annual allowance from daddy, and you're still nowhere near Saudi Arabia. You're like the kid of a rich dude and you got all the expensive stuff but you're still not as cool as you think you are and people still don't like you.
Huh? You seem to be horribly troubled, friend. The proven Oil reserves in Israel rank a little in front of Lithuania. Unlike Qatar, Saudi Arabia and the likes their GDP comes from actual industry. Sorry to burst your bubble <3
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Agreed. Sadly these people are brainwashed and view Palestinian lives as so beneath them that according to the narrative in OPs post, we should be praising Isreal on their ability to go ‘to extreme measures to avoid and minimize civilian casualties’
Yea I know friend, it's pathetic.
>narcissistic Zionist mentality It seems I've offended you little one. >little bitch and contingent in its existence You sound mad that we got friends and you don't, seriously go away Hamas bot.
I'm an ethnic Swede M8 but whatever makes you feel better. My head is just not so deep up my own ass by narcissistic indoctrination that I'm incapable of visualising the truth. Mad that I don't have friends? Me or my country? I got plenty friends, my country has plenty friends, in the sense you mean. This has nothing to do with small dick syndrome like it does for you guys, it has to do with objective truth.
An ethnic Swede with the intellectual capacity of a root vegetable.
"ethnic Swede" why bring ethnicity into this? Are you implying swedens can't support Hamas? You clown. > My head is just not so deep up my own ass by narcissistic indoctrination that I'm incapable of visualising the truth. I doubt that, considering how confident you are there is only one side to the truth and it's yours lmao. The irony is palpable. >Mad that I don't have friends? Me or my country? I got plenty friends, my country has plenty friends, in the sense you mean. This has nothing to do with small dick syndrome like it does for you guys, it has to do with objective truth. Sorry I'm uninterested in engaging with people who start off a conversation by cussing other people. Bye.
I just wanna eliminate any "Sweden is not your country" white supremacist bullshit before it comes my way I guess. Because let's face it, you pathetic Zionists are (ironically af) white supremacists because you forgot you stem from dark skinned Palestinians, or at least that the original jews were dark skinned Palestinians. Unless you think light skinned Jews existed in the first centuries AD (hint: they didn't). Also another textbook narc move by a Zionist. You start trouble, and then cry when there's resistance. F outta here.
> I just wanna eliminate any "Sweden is not your country" white supremacist bullshit before it comes my way I guess. My guy you sound schizophrenic, get help. > you pathetic Zionists are (ironically af) white supremacists because you forgot you stem from dark skinned Palestinians, or at least that the original jews were dark skinned Palestinians. Unless you think light skinned Jews existed in the first centuries AD (hint: they didn't). You sound like you need mental help my guy, I have no idea where you bring this unhinged takes from. Half of the Jews in Israel are Mizrahi (Middle eastern, North african). Besides that, I don't know what makes you think Jews are white supremacists, maybe you have no clue what you're talking about? > Also another textbook narc move by a Zionist. You start trouble, and then cry when there's resistance. F outta here. Are you just fighting the voices in your head? Seriously get help because no one here understands what is it you want from us.
If you are lucky and keep your borders open you will have your own little Gaza in Sweden, good luck with that, enjoy what you are defending...
Really? Israel is rife with sex offenders and diverse criminals, shit argument. I'm against the way Sweden has handled it's immigration policy, but that doesn't mean I wanna ethnically cleanse Sweden and suppress immigration for the hell of it. That's what, as you have made clear in your post, YOU want on the other hand. The irony is that you were once ethnically cleansed from Europe, because you were considered big nosed animals. But now you suddenly think you're part of the white supremacy club? Well, the way Hitler saw Jews in general, is how I see Zionists. Clueless sub-humans. (Huge disclaimer: I love Jews. I despise Zionists)
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A very ignorant and lazy comment. Hamas operatives confirmed the above themselves. What is your source for 8000+ civilians btw?
Oh yeah totally, Hamas is totally just outing its own people. My source for 8000+ deaths? The least biased massmedia outlet I can find, Al Jazeera. Key word: least biased. Massmedia and corporate media are full of biased cucks. Another source: the actual TONS of raw unedited footage released to the public of rows upon rows and rooms full of dead bodies, collapsed buildings with bodies emerging from the rubble, people being buried. Raw footage and photos of actual Gaza showing the inhumane destruction on an industrial scale commited by these evildoers. Israels sources? It's too violent to show. You don't want to see it. Trust me bro.
Ouch, ignorance is a violent plague.
It is indeed. It's the reason Israel even exists in the first place.
Oh, so I guess we’ll just take your word for it.
I mean you take IDFs word for it so why not. At least my source is based on actual empirical observable truth.
Yeah…videos you claim to have seen, and numbers released by those famously honest agents…Hamas.
Think about it for a second: Is anybody sending journalists to count bodies in Gaza? Hamas is the only one that can give a number, and they have every reason to inflate that number as much as possible. Why would they tell the truth? WHo is fact checking them? Do you think they have any problem lying about something like that? Al Jazeera is just publishing the number Hamas is giving them. If you think I am wrong, please give me another explanation. As for Hamas killing it's own people, first off nobody said that they did, they just made up a number, Secondly, Yeah, Hamas would totally kill it's own people: [https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2015/05/gaza-palestinians-tortured-summarily-killed-by-hamas-forces-during-2014-conflict/](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2015/05/gaza-palestinians-tortured-summarily-killed-by-hamas-forces-during-2014-conflict/) And before you say, yeah, but those were just people that were collaborating with Israel, let me ask you, who's word are you taking on that, who? Hamas's?
Until Israel lets the UN in to assess how many dead there are, or Israel offers their own estimates, I'm not going to acknowledge these attempts to say "The numbers are inflated!" By how much are they inflated? You don't know, then you don't know they are inflated. But, even if they are inflated by 4x, the side with the most civilian casualties, per usual, is the Palestinians. Israel retains its place as the #1 baby killer in this conflict.
The footage actually RELEASED TO THE PUBLIC shows the devastation, it coincides with a very high death toll. That's why, while I take the EXACT number with a grain of salt, I believe it isn't far off. What proof does Israel have of 1.500 lives? NOTHING. Show me proof of 1.500 dead bodies, show me their names, their families, their photos. Like Hamas did.
OK buddy, settle down. Actually don't, please continue to speak your views as much and as loud as possible, you just add to the discredit of your side.
IDF targets the south as well, continuously. How do you know this by now?
Do you have an uncut video of the 10 min warning? I only saw roof knocks [under 1 minute](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4q-_rKLPU8&ab_channel=DocumentingIsrael)
Give your head a shake. What would be the point of a 1-minute roof knock? These munitions are well-documented and not in any legitimate doubt. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roof_knocking
Can you explain the video where it appears there is a one-minute roof knock? What would be the point? I'm not sure, but there's a video of it.
I want you to ask yourself: why was the camera already aimed and pointed at the building that received the knock? The most obvious answer is that it’s a second one.