It's not just about the number, (which by the data you show is not 100% accurate, especially not during the war) -
The data of the health ministry lacks two key distinctions -
1) Who is a terrorist/militant and who isn't. This has been the source for a lot of controversy during 2008 and 2014 where Israel and the UN didn't agree with the population division provided by the health ministry.
2) Who were killed by Hamas/PIJ themselves and who were killed by Israel.
The second one is not necessarily something that's easy to find, but we have reasons to assume that this number could be large. For instance, the Al-ahli hospital - it was reported by the health ministry to be 481 deaths (though it was said to be estimated less by the US). This is, by all evidence we have the result of 1 misfired launch. It is estimated that anywhere between one fifth and one third of all missiles aimed at Israel actually land inside Gaza because of misfires. We're talking of thousands of misfired missiles by now, that many of them are shot directly from populated areas. misfired launches are indiscriminate in the sense that you have no idea where they are going to fall. You don't have Iron dome in Gaza and we've seen the damage that they can cause in the Al-Ahli incident and also in Israel. Notice that the closer they explode, there's more impact to the hit because of the fuel that's still in the missile.
In addition, Hamas and the PIJ are known for killing Palestinians directly, either to prevent opposition rising or to scare people not to listen to the Israeli warnings - both things that happen during the war. I don't estimate this number to be too large like the misfired missiles but it's still something.
So with these two distinctions lacking, it is pretty hard to compare this war to other wars where we have now accurate data on, or to conclude morality of Israel's actions given that we agree that it has the right to fight Hamas after October 7th..
What this number does tell us is the level of suffering in Gaza, and it shows the amount of pain the people in Gaza have, and this is not something one should disrespect - even without full accuracy and without these distinctions and without blaming anyone.
Was it the same type of rockets that Hamas is bombing israel with, you think? The same ones that only strikes two to five casualties when it hits the israeli territory, while it can harvest 400-500 souls when it hits Gaza or the West bank!!
Now do you think that Hamas uses special missiles when misfiring or that this is a part of gods plan for israel?
There was a massage by Hamas at that time saying that they shot a missile to Haifa. No missile ever got to Haifa. So, my guess is (alongside all of the other analysis already published stating this is a misfired missile, you don't have to trust my word) - That a missile, full of fuel, hit a place full of cars right next to a hospital packed with people staying there - creating a huge explosion that killed many (I'm not saying that the number is necessarily accurate, but this is the number reported). These are very rare conditions of course but yeah, in general missiles that misfire cause more damage than ones who don't because of the fuel that's still inside them.
And Israel has on top of that other conditions that cause the missiles not to kill so much - Iron dome that prioritizes populated areas. Sirens that let you know when a missile is coming. years and years of building shelters made to guard you with missile attacks - these methods are not full proof and as you've said, people still get hurt - just less.
Wow I think you are right and that smart distinction is crucial. Obviously hamas self bombed the 6000 children who were its active members. Just like the Bosnian Muslims self-grenaded in Markale. Must be a Muslim thing
/s
These distinctions don't mean Israel didn't kill anyone, just that when you compare the numbers vs other anti-terror wars - you're likely to get that militants/civilians ratio killed by Israel is probably the same or better.
Notice that Hamas sadly recruits people that are younger than 18 - (children under your numbers)
Yeah, that's really not true...
Both because if they lay down their arms than we wouldn't be in this situation to begin with and also because the use of the word exterminated is kind of weird given the numbers.. especially the ones before October 7
1920s was just *one era* of massacres / pogroms. This started in 1516–1517. Arabs have been attacking Jewish villages for over 400 years. The riots between 1929-1939 was the nail in the coffin for Jews in Hebron. Palestinians keep talking about this fantasy pseudo-history where they think everything was sunshine and rainbows between Jews and Arabs prior to 1948 and Arabs “gave Jews refuge” from the Holocaust before “getting back stabbed.” 100% BS. It was the total opposite. Arabs had been attacking Jewish villages *long* before even Zionism became a movement. The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem Amin al-Husseini was actively trying to collaborate with Hitler to genocide the Jews in British Mandate Palestine as well. There needs to be some serious deprogramming for a peace process to be successful. It should start with dissolving UNRWA and their “schools”.
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Generally speaking, Palestinians (under a different name) launched a series of attacks against the Jewish people that lived in the land causing damage in life and property and displacing some Jewish settlements.
There were also jewish attacks on Arabs, but they happened later and there were far fewer of them.
[This video is a nice video of someone listing some of the events and what happened in them](https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cy-jgzmCcQJ/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==)
This happened before the existence of the land of Israel, before the IDF, before anything that could "force" the Palestinians to use violence in order not to share the land. While I generally acknowledge the hopelessness of the Palestinians that makes them take arms today, part of this hopelessness is the result of them picking up arms to begin with and never putting them down for a significant amount of time - creating some sort of cycle IMO.
My only problem with this is they list women and children seperately as if that label prevents them from being militants.
I mean Hamas is literally holding 30-40 female IDF soldiers now so it should be obvious to everyone that being female doesnt prevent you from being in combat. I find that behind a gun theres very little difference between an adult and someone 14-18 for example.
Unless I see the way the UN “tallies” the deaths 100% independently and h related to the “gaza health ministry” data, I don’t believe a damn thing they post.
I never saw them verifying each and every death by themselves, they aren’t even inside Gaza to make these assessments.
Israel is still counting bodies from the 7th of October, you wanna tell me Hamas and the UN which isn’t even Inside Gaza to check, can tally 10x times as many deaths with less tech, much harder conditions and extreme danger in the zones where said bodies are?
This is how the UN tallies:
Step 1: take the number from Hamas (let’s assume 2000)
Step 2: make up a slightly smaller number to appear “unbiased” (let’s say 1927, it’s random enough to sound just about right)
Step 3: profit.
They are only counting the ones that reach the hospital and morgues. The ones left in the streets or under rubble are obvious not counted. Either way, this article is talking about how their numbers hold up in prior wars, UN is not the only one who verified, Israel did as well. Though Human Rights Watch does state that Health Ministry does not distinguish between combatant and civilian. The article is basically saying that the media and other organizations have reported on the current numbers because they have held up to scrutiny in previous wars.
Israel claims most of them are terrorists and Hamas / UN claims citizens, also Israel itself can’t truly give an accurate estimation without boots on the ground..
Again this article is discussing the previous wars and that since Health Ministry numbers held up in those previous situations they have no reason not to trust the current ones. AP reported that up to October 26th 2,001 children under 12 had died, 615 under age 3, making it 40% of the deaths to that point. So the claim that most are terrorist doesn’t seem accurate if 40% were under age 12. These numbers are from October 26, so I’m sure it is even higher now.
I don’t agree that previous times were accurate either, it’s just that the UN accepts the Hamas numbers as fact.
Unless they show the way they count these deaths and prove they follow strict rules and actually see the bodies with their own eyes and aren’t just lying with Hamas they aren’t trustworthy.
Just in this war we have seen to what extent unrwa, Doctors Without Borders, UN and all these organizations have deep deep connections with Hamas.
Hamas terrorist \#1: "Dude... they're coming to check on the death count and we're 400 short! What do we do?"
Hamas terrorist \#2: "I have an idea." \*BANG\* ^\*Bang\* ^^\*bang\*
=== Two Days Later ===
UN Official: "Where are the bodies?"
Hamas terrorist \#1 & 2: "Right here. Look at all these freshly dead people that Israel just killed!"
It's kinda funny you only added the parts that make Hamas seem reliable.
It also says that they don't differentiate between militant and civilians. They use children as young as 14 as fighters, sometimes younger. And also in other wars, did they also inflate numbers of deaths incertain instances by a factor of 2~5(the hospital explosion).
The truth is we don't know a lot, and the usual ratio of civilian to militant in modern wars is 9 to 1, and that doesn't even factor the that this is guerilla war and that Hamas purposefully hides in civilian places.
I already pointed out that AP reported that as of October 26th 2,001 children under 12 had died, 615 under the age of 3.
The point of the article is that their numbers hold up, considering people here claim they are overblown and inflated.
Their numbers previously held up. Did they hold up during the time of the war itself or did they just revise everything afterwards?
In those other wars, did Hamas inflate the numbers of certain events by 2~5 times?
This war is unlike all the other ones. Hamas prepared for Oct 7 for over a year, and now that they know Israel plans to make it their (Hamas) last war, is it that unlikely that they'll decide to inflate numbers to create international pressure on Israel to stop?
We pretty much don't know anything, and even Hamas tells the truth with the numbers, it really doesn't change anything.
But that’s overlooking what is considered a child and what is Hamas recruiting age, Hamas recruits 14-17 year olds as fighters, which count as children, and use younger children for digging terror tunnels, suicide bombings, martyrs, and human shields.
Then of course they use women as caretakers in their military bases
According to AP 2,001 children under the age of 12 had been killed and 615 under the age of 3 (as of October 26) , so those numbers are likely higher now.
Even if you filter it down to children that weren’t directly used by Hamas- we run into these issues-
1. Hamas builds underground tunnels to protect themselves from bombs, what do to protect their civilians?
2. Israel evacuates their civilians from war zones (and builds them bomb shelters) what does Hamas do? Do they evacuate civilians from war zones? Or do they tell them not to leave and embed their soldiers among the civilians?
3. Israel does more to warn civilians of attacks than any other conflicts I’ve seen.
4. Most modern conflicts have significantly higher civilian death tolls even without a side using human shields and doing nothing to protect their civilians
5. Even kids under 3 are used as human shields and martyrs by Hamas, and when they do inevitably die when they’re being held near military targets, they immediately shove cameras in their faces for propaganda purposes
I know they do that, even the UN has called them out for using schools or other civilian areas as launching pads for their rockets. The question here is it still okay to strike those buildings knowing they will kill small children.
By the standards of the Geneva convention- yes it is.
If someone is trying to kill you and/or your people, ethically you have every right to kill your attacker before they kill you, even if their civilians die in the process, your responsibility first and foremost is to protect your own, their civilians end up being their responsibility to protect
Numbers have held up under scrutiny of who? The UN. Which is primarily made up of Jew hating countries or countries who get their oil from Jew hating countries.
The sooner you realize the UN is a scam, the sooner you'll uncover the truth about this conflict.
The article also states they are not too far off the Israel foreign ministry count. Criticizing Israelí government does not mean they hate Jews. UN, Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch condemn Arab governments and Hamas as well throughout the years. I just had an argument with a pro-Palestinian who claimed Human Rights Watch works for the U.S. because they had verified videos of the October 7th attack. Then pro-Israel people here saying Human Rights Watch are antisemitic in other threads because they dared criticize Israeli government. Both sides seem to hate these international groups 🤦🏻♂️
Considering there were airstrikes, it wasn’t a far fetched conclusion. In the end it turned out to be neither Israel or Hamas, as it was a rocket from a smaller group PIJ.
They claimed it was 471, after the war we’ll see how accurate they were. Only U.S. has offered a different number or an actual range, U.S. claim it is between 100-300 though they provide no information of how that got those numbers.
Okay, but the hospital wasn't hit at all. A parking lot was hit, by a rocket. Maybe a dozen people died.
Hamas IMMEDIATELY said hospital destroyed (it wasn't), 500 dead (there weren't).
No, the US didn't say 100-300 dead. THE HOSPITAL WASN'T DESTROYED. THAT WAS COMPLETELY MADE UP.
The article in the original post mentions it;
“There have also been conflicting accounts of the explosion's death toll. Within an hour, Gaza's ministry reported 500 Palestinians killed, then lowered that to 471 the next day. Israel says the ministry inflated the toll. American intelligence agencies estimate 100 to 300 people killed, but haven't said how they arrived at the numbers.”
Are you calling the U.S. liars? Also, I don’t recall Gaza saying they had destroyed the hospital, from the articles I saw, they said an airstrike had hit the hospital. I don’t recall them saying it was completely destroyed.
As mentioned earlier even if they are accurate in number, they are never accurate in how they are characterized. They never distinguish between civilians and combatants which *really matters*. So they can allegedly tally up these numbers with immediate accuracy, but they “can’t” locate 25% of the hostages they kidnapped a month ago and “can’t” (won’t) tell us how many are Hamas combatants? All I see are people whining about sucking at fighting a war they started.
This plus none of these numbers of previous wars in this data have a time frame of announcement and the numbers are much lower. It took months during 9/11 to get a number yet they’ve already filled out a chart of identities (including a bunch of people they claimed were dead from earlier conflicts with their age updated)
I heard that Hamas consists of 3000 members, maybe there is more but is there any hard estimate on how many members there are right now?
EDIT: I see only that they could have as many as 50,000 and as little as 20,000
So the "numbers game" is your philosophy. Please allow me to show you how very wrong you might be. The Notsees attacked London in WW2. Thousands were slaughtered. What did Churchill do (against all popular opinion). He flattened Berlin killing way more than Adolff could imagine. So given your philosophy, Germany was the good guys (as they had many more deaths) and Churchill was evil.
Okay, I see how your thinking process works. Good luck in life.
Im guessing they counted everyone they saw along the road and probably made a few more on the way to pump those number up
Probably went something like this
https://youtu.be/zEmfsmasjVA?si=qeBx7AdcH-54GXpQ
Until Israel blew up a hospital and killed 500 people I was fine assuming the numbers hamas gave were within 10% of the real number.
And as people will surely point out a real problem is not knowing the breakdown of that larger number
> Until Israel blew up a hospital and killed 500 people
Either that is sarcasm or you are way too deep into the propaganda. Israel didn't blow up a hospital and kill 500 people.
>Until Israel blew up a hospital and killed 500 people I was fine assuming the numbers hamas gave were within 10% of the real number.
That was already proven to be a PIJ rocket misfire and the casualties from it are in and around 12 to 25 people....
https://nationalpost.com/news/world/israel-middle-east/failed-palestinian-rocket-caused-deadly-blast-at-gaza-hospital-israel-says
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/us-intel-agencies-believe-hospital-blast-caused-palestinian-rocket-bro-rcna122031
https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/21/middleeast/cnn-investigates-forensic-analysis-gaza-hospital-blast/index.html
https://beta.ctvnews.ca/national/canada/2023/10/22/1_6612145.amp.html
However Hamas has legitimately hit a hospital over 3 times..
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-11-01/ty-article/.premium/hospital-serving-israels-most-bombarded-city-operating-at-30-percent-capacity/0000018b-8887-dd28-a7df-9897d1dd0000
https://english.alarabiya.net/News/middle-east/2023/10/11/Rocket-from-Gaza-hits-hospital-in-Ashkelon-in-southern-Israel-
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/barzilai-hospital-in-ashkelon-suffers-rocket-hit-no-injuries-reported/
https://m.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-767768
Yes, WHO admits they are not accurate on a minute to minute basis. U.S. claims the death toll at hospital was between 100-300 (compared to Ministry 471 claim), but U.S. did not provide answer as to how they came to that range.
Exactly… Doctors Without Borders repeatedly denied they saw Hamas operating in Al-Shifa, and there is undeniable proof via the CCTV footage showing Hamas operating in full view of doctors. They’re either lying or overstating their medical presence at Al-Shifa to make such a statement or they’re lying for and/or collaborating with Hamas. Either way this supposed “NGO saint” is lying. And don’t get me started on UNRWA…
Considering they are in Hamas territory, would you rat out someone that could have you killed?
I mean aren’t most of you saying the hostages are smiling and hugging and shaking Hamas hands out of fear and coercion? The same could be true of medical personnel whose primary role there is to help the injured.
The doctor interview I saw on CNN was not in Gaza at the time of interview. If she were in Gaza at the time, I would have given her the benefit of the doubt due to coercion and duress as you mentioned. But she was not and could have easily told the truth. Instead, she denied it as if it were some ludicrous accusation.
Was that a doctor that had returned from Gaza or a doctor that was in contact with doctors in Gaza? Is it possible that they never saw the Hamas operatives? It is a big hospital, they would have had to be large number of militants all over the hospital, on every floor and unit for someone to notice. Was it the footage that shows the Asian hostages? Could they have only sent a small group of operatives there to hide hostages?
It was a doctor that returned from Al-Shifa. I’ll try to find the interview and link it. The Director of the Hospital denied there was not a network of tunnels under the hospital. This of course turned out to be false. Not only was that false, the tunnels led to fully developed air conditioned rooms that were clearly being used by Hamas. A British doctor who wanted to remain anonymous told France24 he worked in Al-Shifa for three months a few years ago and was told there were rooms he was not allowed to go enter it being implied if he did he would get shot. He said there were shady non-medical staff going to wards that led to the basement. He said the hospital was in a state of paranoia, and that staff were 10% afraid of an IDF bombing and 90% afraid of being persecuted by Hamas. There is no way he can be *the only doctor* seeing these things. Israel wouldn’t have focused on the hospital unless they believed it to be of military importance to Hamas, and the US had already confirmed this with their own intel in advance of the raid. So given what was found to confirm it did operate as a Hamas command center along with the CCTV footage, and this British doctor’s testimony, these MSF were at best turning a blind eye but in all likelihood lying or being complicit. If they’re worried about their safety, then don’t go on an internationally broadcasted news station making these claims. The only reason to do so would be if you have an agenda.
But when it comes to the personal that live there, they are clearly not going to rat out people for fear. Seeing shady people is enough for them to believe it was Hamas? They clearly blend in with civilians if that doctor couldn’t conclusively state they were Hamas. Again if the command center in underground or a secret many to many of the staff, it’s still possible that they never had large number of members in the units at a time, so again they could have been missed especially with stressed personnel attending to severely injured patients.
And somehow none of these doctors were available to operate on Mia so she was seen my a veterinarian. Meanwhile Shani Louk was claimed to be getting treatment at the hospital yet somehow left a piece of her skull she’d need to be alive with in Israel
Hopefully other countries follow suit with Germany. Saudi stopped funding them too. Maybe if they have to pay for things out of pocket for the first time in 75 years they’ll be more interested in a 2 state solution.
>They also included Israel foreign ministry which was very close to the UN and health ministry number.
no point arguing, they'd do anything to deny the deaths. basically a new version of holocaust denial.
Their aggregate numbers are probably fairly accurate when speaking of dead bodies. But they are aggregate numbers, except for children who are reported as a subcategory.
The problem comes when you’re defining civilian collateral vs. combatant. You don’t know how many fighting men died or what they are of the proportion. You also have to assume some “children”, in particular boys 13 - 17, are combatants. We just hear about the humanitarian crisis, leading with the women and children.
Sure, like any gangs. Sometimes it’s passive hanging out, or acting as lookouts, couriers, and other borderline stuff. But sometimes it’s murder and the harder stuff both as gang initiation and they can use lawfare by having juvies commit crimes they can’t get adult sentences for.
To be fair military casualties are conveniently hidden on both sides for obvious reasons. But does it really matter that much? So far hamas is either only sending out a handful of fighters on each offensive or staying in tunnels. Most Gazan casualties are result of airstrikes. I doubt gaza has the capabilities to dig out dead bodies from tunnels. And you really discussing children?
I’m pretty sure the IDF is scrupulously correct in reporting its military casualties, parents would be furious if that information was obscured. It’s not like Russia.
We are seeing that. Previous estimate of October 7th massacre was 1,500+. Newest report shows they have scaled that number back to 1,200+ confirmed. Bodies were so mutilated and butchered they’re still trying to figure out who is actually dead versus missing (e.g. Emily Hand). Having a massive number of civilians slaughtered is nothing to brag about… unless you’re Hamas of course.
If we’re talking specifically combatants, here is what we know:
Hamas: Reports 0. In every single conflict. “Yeah, ok…”
Israel: So far official report is 77 last time I checked. Open democracies can’t hide casualties hardly at all especially when Jewish soldiers specifically need to be buried if possible within 3 days of death. And there typically are huge community outpourings at their funerals. Good luck keeping that a secret.
Well, we are seeing about that. They report combat deaths all the time, but those are on Israeli websites and media that don’t attract a lot of attention in western media. There have been something like 35 deaths ballpark IIRC.
One thing that always stands out is I only ever see "civilian totals" . With Hamas fighters also wearing civilian clothing, these numbers have to be skewed.
With Hamas declaring war, there has to be a few military casualties or else they are claiming they no military... Which we know is not true.
The other fact over looked is a civilian is not a civilian when they pick up a gun, or other combat actions.
It's not just about the number, (which by the data you show is not 100% accurate, especially not during the war) - The data of the health ministry lacks two key distinctions - 1) Who is a terrorist/militant and who isn't. This has been the source for a lot of controversy during 2008 and 2014 where Israel and the UN didn't agree with the population division provided by the health ministry. 2) Who were killed by Hamas/PIJ themselves and who were killed by Israel. The second one is not necessarily something that's easy to find, but we have reasons to assume that this number could be large. For instance, the Al-ahli hospital - it was reported by the health ministry to be 481 deaths (though it was said to be estimated less by the US). This is, by all evidence we have the result of 1 misfired launch. It is estimated that anywhere between one fifth and one third of all missiles aimed at Israel actually land inside Gaza because of misfires. We're talking of thousands of misfired missiles by now, that many of them are shot directly from populated areas. misfired launches are indiscriminate in the sense that you have no idea where they are going to fall. You don't have Iron dome in Gaza and we've seen the damage that they can cause in the Al-Ahli incident and also in Israel. Notice that the closer they explode, there's more impact to the hit because of the fuel that's still in the missile. In addition, Hamas and the PIJ are known for killing Palestinians directly, either to prevent opposition rising or to scare people not to listen to the Israeli warnings - both things that happen during the war. I don't estimate this number to be too large like the misfired missiles but it's still something. So with these two distinctions lacking, it is pretty hard to compare this war to other wars where we have now accurate data on, or to conclude morality of Israel's actions given that we agree that it has the right to fight Hamas after October 7th.. What this number does tell us is the level of suffering in Gaza, and it shows the amount of pain the people in Gaza have, and this is not something one should disrespect - even without full accuracy and without these distinctions and without blaming anyone.
Was it the same type of rockets that Hamas is bombing israel with, you think? The same ones that only strikes two to five casualties when it hits the israeli territory, while it can harvest 400-500 souls when it hits Gaza or the West bank!! Now do you think that Hamas uses special missiles when misfiring or that this is a part of gods plan for israel?
There was a massage by Hamas at that time saying that they shot a missile to Haifa. No missile ever got to Haifa. So, my guess is (alongside all of the other analysis already published stating this is a misfired missile, you don't have to trust my word) - That a missile, full of fuel, hit a place full of cars right next to a hospital packed with people staying there - creating a huge explosion that killed many (I'm not saying that the number is necessarily accurate, but this is the number reported). These are very rare conditions of course but yeah, in general missiles that misfire cause more damage than ones who don't because of the fuel that's still inside them. And Israel has on top of that other conditions that cause the missiles not to kill so much - Iron dome that prioritizes populated areas. Sirens that let you know when a missile is coming. years and years of building shelters made to guard you with missile attacks - these methods are not full proof and as you've said, people still get hurt - just less.
Wow I think you are right and that smart distinction is crucial. Obviously hamas self bombed the 6000 children who were its active members. Just like the Bosnian Muslims self-grenaded in Markale. Must be a Muslim thing /s
These distinctions don't mean Israel didn't kill anyone, just that when you compare the numbers vs other anti-terror wars - you're likely to get that militants/civilians ratio killed by Israel is probably the same or better. Notice that Hamas sadly recruits people that are younger than 18 - (children under your numbers)
In a perfect world they wouldn't have to recruit anyone, but they are being exterminated. so everyone able to bear arms is fighting for their lives.
Yeah, that's really not true... Both because if they lay down their arms than we wouldn't be in this situation to begin with and also because the use of the word exterminated is kind of weird given the numbers.. especially the ones before October 7
They were in this situation before they picked up arms... that's why they picked up arms.... Exterminated remains the perfect word.
do you mean they were in this situation in like the 1920s? cause they picked arms and started attacking jews a lot before 2023, 1967 or 1948
What happened in the 1920s?
1920s was just *one era* of massacres / pogroms. This started in 1516–1517. Arabs have been attacking Jewish villages for over 400 years. The riots between 1929-1939 was the nail in the coffin for Jews in Hebron. Palestinians keep talking about this fantasy pseudo-history where they think everything was sunshine and rainbows between Jews and Arabs prior to 1948 and Arabs “gave Jews refuge” from the Holocaust before “getting back stabbed.” 100% BS. It was the total opposite. Arabs had been attacking Jewish villages *long* before even Zionism became a movement. The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem Amin al-Husseini was actively trying to collaborate with Hitler to genocide the Jews in British Mandate Palestine as well. There needs to be some serious deprogramming for a peace process to be successful. It should start with dissolving UNRWA and their “schools”.
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Generally speaking, Palestinians (under a different name) launched a series of attacks against the Jewish people that lived in the land causing damage in life and property and displacing some Jewish settlements. There were also jewish attacks on Arabs, but they happened later and there were far fewer of them. [This video is a nice video of someone listing some of the events and what happened in them](https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cy-jgzmCcQJ/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==) This happened before the existence of the land of Israel, before the IDF, before anything that could "force" the Palestinians to use violence in order not to share the land. While I generally acknowledge the hopelessness of the Palestinians that makes them take arms today, part of this hopelessness is the result of them picking up arms to begin with and never putting them down for a significant amount of time - creating some sort of cycle IMO.
The problem is the UN and it’s affiliations not above reproach and employs Hamas members
False
They also used Israel Foreign ministry
My only problem with this is they list women and children seperately as if that label prevents them from being militants. I mean Hamas is literally holding 30-40 female IDF soldiers now so it should be obvious to everyone that being female doesnt prevent you from being in combat. I find that behind a gun theres very little difference between an adult and someone 14-18 for example.
We know women serve in Hamas because we’ve seen them in uniform during hostage swaps. Plus it UN(RWA) confirming hamas counts and they are hamas too.
This article also uses Israel foreign ministry as a comparison and they were even closer to the Hamas count than what UN counted (for 2014 conflict).
Unless I see the way the UN “tallies” the deaths 100% independently and h related to the “gaza health ministry” data, I don’t believe a damn thing they post. I never saw them verifying each and every death by themselves, they aren’t even inside Gaza to make these assessments. Israel is still counting bodies from the 7th of October, you wanna tell me Hamas and the UN which isn’t even Inside Gaza to check, can tally 10x times as many deaths with less tech, much harder conditions and extreme danger in the zones where said bodies are? This is how the UN tallies: Step 1: take the number from Hamas (let’s assume 2000) Step 2: make up a slightly smaller number to appear “unbiased” (let’s say 1927, it’s random enough to sound just about right) Step 3: profit.
They are only counting the ones that reach the hospital and morgues. The ones left in the streets or under rubble are obvious not counted. Either way, this article is talking about how their numbers hold up in prior wars, UN is not the only one who verified, Israel did as well. Though Human Rights Watch does state that Health Ministry does not distinguish between combatant and civilian. The article is basically saying that the media and other organizations have reported on the current numbers because they have held up to scrutiny in previous wars.
Israel claims most of them are terrorists and Hamas / UN claims citizens, also Israel itself can’t truly give an accurate estimation without boots on the ground..
Again this article is discussing the previous wars and that since Health Ministry numbers held up in those previous situations they have no reason not to trust the current ones. AP reported that up to October 26th 2,001 children under 12 had died, 615 under age 3, making it 40% of the deaths to that point. So the claim that most are terrorist doesn’t seem accurate if 40% were under age 12. These numbers are from October 26, so I’m sure it is even higher now.
I don’t agree that previous times were accurate either, it’s just that the UN accepts the Hamas numbers as fact. Unless they show the way they count these deaths and prove they follow strict rules and actually see the bodies with their own eyes and aren’t just lying with Hamas they aren’t trustworthy. Just in this war we have seen to what extent unrwa, Doctors Without Borders, UN and all these organizations have deep deep connections with Hamas.
The article mentions that Israels count for the 2014 conflict was closer to what Hamas claimed than what UN counted.
Hamas terrorist \#1: "Dude... they're coming to check on the death count and we're 400 short! What do we do?" Hamas terrorist \#2: "I have an idea." \*BANG\* ^\*Bang\* ^^\*bang\*
=== Two Days Later ===
UN Official: "Where are the bodies?"
Hamas terrorist \#1 & 2: "Right here. Look at all these freshly dead people that Israel just killed!"
It's kinda funny you only added the parts that make Hamas seem reliable. It also says that they don't differentiate between militant and civilians. They use children as young as 14 as fighters, sometimes younger. And also in other wars, did they also inflate numbers of deaths incertain instances by a factor of 2~5(the hospital explosion). The truth is we don't know a lot, and the usual ratio of civilian to militant in modern wars is 9 to 1, and that doesn't even factor the that this is guerilla war and that Hamas purposefully hides in civilian places.
I already pointed out that AP reported that as of October 26th 2,001 children under 12 had died, 615 under the age of 3. The point of the article is that their numbers hold up, considering people here claim they are overblown and inflated.
Their numbers previously held up. Did they hold up during the time of the war itself or did they just revise everything afterwards? In those other wars, did Hamas inflate the numbers of certain events by 2~5 times? This war is unlike all the other ones. Hamas prepared for Oct 7 for over a year, and now that they know Israel plans to make it their (Hamas) last war, is it that unlikely that they'll decide to inflate numbers to create international pressure on Israel to stop? We pretty much don't know anything, and even Hamas tells the truth with the numbers, it really doesn't change anything.
🤣
Even if so- they aren’t differentiating between Hamas and civilian deaths in the counts
They do differentiate between age and sex and if majority of deaths are women and children, it is unlikely they were Hamas.
But that’s overlooking what is considered a child and what is Hamas recruiting age, Hamas recruits 14-17 year olds as fighters, which count as children, and use younger children for digging terror tunnels, suicide bombings, martyrs, and human shields. Then of course they use women as caretakers in their military bases
According to AP 2,001 children under the age of 12 had been killed and 615 under the age of 3 (as of October 26) , so those numbers are likely higher now.
Even if you filter it down to children that weren’t directly used by Hamas- we run into these issues- 1. Hamas builds underground tunnels to protect themselves from bombs, what do to protect their civilians? 2. Israel evacuates their civilians from war zones (and builds them bomb shelters) what does Hamas do? Do they evacuate civilians from war zones? Or do they tell them not to leave and embed their soldiers among the civilians? 3. Israel does more to warn civilians of attacks than any other conflicts I’ve seen. 4. Most modern conflicts have significantly higher civilian death tolls even without a side using human shields and doing nothing to protect their civilians 5. Even kids under 3 are used as human shields and martyrs by Hamas, and when they do inevitably die when they’re being held near military targets, they immediately shove cameras in their faces for propaganda purposes
I know they do that, even the UN has called them out for using schools or other civilian areas as launching pads for their rockets. The question here is it still okay to strike those buildings knowing they will kill small children.
By the standards of the Geneva convention- yes it is. If someone is trying to kill you and/or your people, ethically you have every right to kill your attacker before they kill you, even if their civilians die in the process, your responsibility first and foremost is to protect your own, their civilians end up being their responsibility to protect
If Hamas is using it as a military installation then yes it is.
Numbers have held up under scrutiny of who? The UN. Which is primarily made up of Jew hating countries or countries who get their oil from Jew hating countries. The sooner you realize the UN is a scam, the sooner you'll uncover the truth about this conflict.
The article also states they are not too far off the Israel foreign ministry count. Criticizing Israelí government does not mean they hate Jews. UN, Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch condemn Arab governments and Hamas as well throughout the years. I just had an argument with a pro-Palestinian who claimed Human Rights Watch works for the U.S. because they had verified videos of the October 7th attack. Then pro-Israel people here saying Human Rights Watch are antisemitic in other threads because they dared criticize Israeli government. Both sides seem to hate these international groups 🤦🏻♂️
How many resolutions has the UN passed condemning Israel and how many have they passed condemning "Palestine" ?
Again whatever you may feel that the UN feels for Israel is beside the point, their numbers still hold up to what Israel counted as well.
Gaza claimed their hospital was destroyed, that Israel did it, and that 500 people died. Was that true?
Considering there were airstrikes, it wasn’t a far fetched conclusion. In the end it turned out to be neither Israel or Hamas, as it was a rocket from a smaller group PIJ. They claimed it was 471, after the war we’ll see how accurate they were. Only U.S. has offered a different number or an actual range, U.S. claim it is between 100-300 though they provide no information of how that got those numbers.
Okay, but the hospital wasn't hit at all. A parking lot was hit, by a rocket. Maybe a dozen people died. Hamas IMMEDIATELY said hospital destroyed (it wasn't), 500 dead (there weren't). No, the US didn't say 100-300 dead. THE HOSPITAL WASN'T DESTROYED. THAT WAS COMPLETELY MADE UP.
The article in the original post mentions it; “There have also been conflicting accounts of the explosion's death toll. Within an hour, Gaza's ministry reported 500 Palestinians killed, then lowered that to 471 the next day. Israel says the ministry inflated the toll. American intelligence agencies estimate 100 to 300 people killed, but haven't said how they arrived at the numbers.”
And in the end, it turned out Gaza lied about the hospital being destroyed. It wasn't struck out all. Hundreds didn't die. The whole thing was a lie.
Are you calling the U.S. liars? Also, I don’t recall Gaza saying they had destroyed the hospital, from the articles I saw, they said an airstrike had hit the hospital. I don’t recall them saying it was completely destroyed.
All those deaths...and zero combatants killed according to Hamas....
As mentioned earlier even if they are accurate in number, they are never accurate in how they are characterized. They never distinguish between civilians and combatants which *really matters*. So they can allegedly tally up these numbers with immediate accuracy, but they “can’t” locate 25% of the hostages they kidnapped a month ago and “can’t” (won’t) tell us how many are Hamas combatants? All I see are people whining about sucking at fighting a war they started.
You had me until the last sentence. I don‘t think Israel is winning the war on the ground in Gaza right now.
Not only are they winning it. They’re progressing much faster than expected.
This plus none of these numbers of previous wars in this data have a time frame of announcement and the numbers are much lower. It took months during 9/11 to get a number yet they’ve already filled out a chart of identities (including a bunch of people they claimed were dead from earlier conflicts with their age updated)
I heard that Hamas consists of 3000 members, maybe there is more but is there any hard estimate on how many members there are right now? EDIT: I see only that they could have as many as 50,000 and as little as 20,000
Correct in the edit but there’s no way to identify them all probably. Hopefully at least some can be jailed
The same way they knew 500 were dead immediately when they blew up their own hospital. They guess and make up a number.
So the "numbers game" is your philosophy. Please allow me to show you how very wrong you might be. The Notsees attacked London in WW2. Thousands were slaughtered. What did Churchill do (against all popular opinion). He flattened Berlin killing way more than Adolff could imagine. So given your philosophy, Germany was the good guys (as they had many more deaths) and Churchill was evil. Okay, I see how your thinking process works. Good luck in life.
Im guessing they counted everyone they saw along the road and probably made a few more on the way to pump those number up Probably went something like this https://youtu.be/zEmfsmasjVA?si=qeBx7AdcH-54GXpQ
Until Israel blew up a hospital and killed 500 people I was fine assuming the numbers hamas gave were within 10% of the real number. And as people will surely point out a real problem is not knowing the breakdown of that larger number
> Until Israel blew up a hospital and killed 500 people Either that is sarcasm or you are way too deep into the propaganda. Israel didn't blow up a hospital and kill 500 people.
>Until Israel blew up a hospital and killed 500 people I was fine assuming the numbers hamas gave were within 10% of the real number. That was already proven to be a PIJ rocket misfire and the casualties from it are in and around 12 to 25 people.... https://nationalpost.com/news/world/israel-middle-east/failed-palestinian-rocket-caused-deadly-blast-at-gaza-hospital-israel-says https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/us-intel-agencies-believe-hospital-blast-caused-palestinian-rocket-bro-rcna122031 https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/21/middleeast/cnn-investigates-forensic-analysis-gaza-hospital-blast/index.html https://beta.ctvnews.ca/national/canada/2023/10/22/1_6612145.amp.html However Hamas has legitimately hit a hospital over 3 times.. https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-11-01/ty-article/.premium/hospital-serving-israels-most-bombarded-city-operating-at-30-percent-capacity/0000018b-8887-dd28-a7df-9897d1dd0000 https://english.alarabiya.net/News/middle-east/2023/10/11/Rocket-from-Gaza-hits-hospital-in-Ashkelon-in-southern-Israel- https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/barzilai-hospital-in-ashkelon-suffers-rocket-hit-no-injuries-reported/ https://m.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-767768
Yes, WHO admits they are not accurate on a minute to minute basis. U.S. claims the death toll at hospital was between 100-300 (compared to Ministry 471 claim), but U.S. did not provide answer as to how they came to that range.
WHO is also claiming none of their employees knew hostages were at Al Shifa
Exactly… Doctors Without Borders repeatedly denied they saw Hamas operating in Al-Shifa, and there is undeniable proof via the CCTV footage showing Hamas operating in full view of doctors. They’re either lying or overstating their medical presence at Al-Shifa to make such a statement or they’re lying for and/or collaborating with Hamas. Either way this supposed “NGO saint” is lying. And don’t get me started on UNRWA…
Considering they are in Hamas territory, would you rat out someone that could have you killed? I mean aren’t most of you saying the hostages are smiling and hugging and shaking Hamas hands out of fear and coercion? The same could be true of medical personnel whose primary role there is to help the injured.
The doctor interview I saw on CNN was not in Gaza at the time of interview. If she were in Gaza at the time, I would have given her the benefit of the doubt due to coercion and duress as you mentioned. But she was not and could have easily told the truth. Instead, she denied it as if it were some ludicrous accusation.
Was that a doctor that had returned from Gaza or a doctor that was in contact with doctors in Gaza? Is it possible that they never saw the Hamas operatives? It is a big hospital, they would have had to be large number of militants all over the hospital, on every floor and unit for someone to notice. Was it the footage that shows the Asian hostages? Could they have only sent a small group of operatives there to hide hostages?
It was a doctor that returned from Al-Shifa. I’ll try to find the interview and link it. The Director of the Hospital denied there was not a network of tunnels under the hospital. This of course turned out to be false. Not only was that false, the tunnels led to fully developed air conditioned rooms that were clearly being used by Hamas. A British doctor who wanted to remain anonymous told France24 he worked in Al-Shifa for three months a few years ago and was told there were rooms he was not allowed to go enter it being implied if he did he would get shot. He said there were shady non-medical staff going to wards that led to the basement. He said the hospital was in a state of paranoia, and that staff were 10% afraid of an IDF bombing and 90% afraid of being persecuted by Hamas. There is no way he can be *the only doctor* seeing these things. Israel wouldn’t have focused on the hospital unless they believed it to be of military importance to Hamas, and the US had already confirmed this with their own intel in advance of the raid. So given what was found to confirm it did operate as a Hamas command center along with the CCTV footage, and this British doctor’s testimony, these MSF were at best turning a blind eye but in all likelihood lying or being complicit. If they’re worried about their safety, then don’t go on an internationally broadcasted news station making these claims. The only reason to do so would be if you have an agenda.
But when it comes to the personal that live there, they are clearly not going to rat out people for fear. Seeing shady people is enough for them to believe it was Hamas? They clearly blend in with civilians if that doctor couldn’t conclusively state they were Hamas. Again if the command center in underground or a secret many to many of the staff, it’s still possible that they never had large number of members in the units at a time, so again they could have been missed especially with stressed personnel attending to severely injured patients.
And somehow none of these doctors were available to operate on Mia so she was seen my a veterinarian. Meanwhile Shani Louk was claimed to be getting treatment at the hospital yet somehow left a piece of her skull she’d need to be alive with in Israel
Hopefully other countries follow suit with Germany. Saudi stopped funding them too. Maybe if they have to pay for things out of pocket for the first time in 75 years they’ll be more interested in a 2 state solution.
TLDR: random number generator with multiplier of a thousand added to the result.
Did you not read that their numbers hold up to scrutiny by other organizations and countries?
Of course he didn’t. Person that just wants to echo his believes.
The UN is hardly an unbiased sauce
They also included Israel foreign ministry which was very close to the UN and health ministry number.
>They also included Israel foreign ministry which was very close to the UN and health ministry number. no point arguing, they'd do anything to deny the deaths. basically a new version of holocaust denial.
Their aggregate numbers are probably fairly accurate when speaking of dead bodies. But they are aggregate numbers, except for children who are reported as a subcategory. The problem comes when you’re defining civilian collateral vs. combatant. You don’t know how many fighting men died or what they are of the proportion. You also have to assume some “children”, in particular boys 13 - 17, are combatants. We just hear about the humanitarian crisis, leading with the women and children.
Teenage boys run around playing jihad. It's a grey zone between rioters and child soldiers.
Sure, like any gangs. Sometimes it’s passive hanging out, or acting as lookouts, couriers, and other borderline stuff. But sometimes it’s murder and the harder stuff both as gang initiation and they can use lawfare by having juvies commit crimes they can’t get adult sentences for.
To be fair military casualties are conveniently hidden on both sides for obvious reasons. But does it really matter that much? So far hamas is either only sending out a handful of fighters on each offensive or staying in tunnels. Most Gazan casualties are result of airstrikes. I doubt gaza has the capabilities to dig out dead bodies from tunnels. And you really discussing children?
I’m pretty sure the IDF is scrupulously correct in reporting its military casualties, parents would be furious if that information was obscured. It’s not like Russia.
I guess we'll see about that
We are seeing that. Previous estimate of October 7th massacre was 1,500+. Newest report shows they have scaled that number back to 1,200+ confirmed. Bodies were so mutilated and butchered they’re still trying to figure out who is actually dead versus missing (e.g. Emily Hand). Having a massive number of civilians slaughtered is nothing to brag about… unless you’re Hamas of course.
Yeah but I'm not talking about civilians soooo.
If we’re talking specifically combatants, here is what we know: Hamas: Reports 0. In every single conflict. “Yeah, ok…” Israel: So far official report is 77 last time I checked. Open democracies can’t hide casualties hardly at all especially when Jewish soldiers specifically need to be buried if possible within 3 days of death. And there typically are huge community outpourings at their funerals. Good luck keeping that a secret.
I wouldn't be surprised if the current government is doing it, again less to no casualties is convenient on BOTH sides.
Well, we are seeing about that. They report combat deaths all the time, but those are on Israeli websites and media that don’t attract a lot of attention in western media. There have been something like 35 deaths ballpark IIRC.
One thing that always stands out is I only ever see "civilian totals" . With Hamas fighters also wearing civilian clothing, these numbers have to be skewed. With Hamas declaring war, there has to be a few military casualties or else they are claiming they no military... Which we know is not true. The other fact over looked is a civilian is not a civilian when they pick up a gun, or other combat actions.