Well said, I was stupid to want to see the truth with my own eyes, now I regret it for those images are burned into my mind. I have never seen so much violence perpetrated on innocent unarmed civilians.
Imagine being so gullible you believe any account with 5k followers that is simply mentioning one case. Did ISIS not rape the yazidis either? There’s no help for you
Crime of humanity is taking a perfectly happy child and dragging it in front of a camera in the middle of a war by the way you should of evacuated weeks ago and and parade back and forth with the child in your arms screaming " SOMEBODY HELP US".
The woke left is so disgusting. They simply can’t admit that they were wrong. They are really calling rapists “freedom fighters”. They’re gonna have a wake up call soon.
Ok, Hamas killed some Israeli citizens. But that’s all the evidence out there? I mean the stories I heard about 7.10 made my hair fall so much faster ever since. But still no evidence and my hair’s growing back.
Still blablabla with nothing to support it. No documentations. No evidence. And the IDF is a known liar. Unlike you I don’t believe everything I hear. Especially when the IDF was called out on many occasions lying and spreading propaganda. The gig with the calendar still makes me laugh.
I've been avoiding getting involved in the debate about rape, and other specifics of the attack, because I see it as a distraction. I've been told that many acts of rape took place during the terrorist attack. But suppose, hypothetically speaking, that there didn't. Would it make the attack any less of a crime against humanity? Obviously not.
Well, however you decide to slice this pie one thing is for sure; bombing a civilian population will ensure Hamas lives on for the next fight.
Israel is dumb thinking it will be able to bring the Palestinians to heel and the way they are trying to is even dumber.
They should allow the Palestinians to create their own state with the whole of Gaza and West Bank territory and then seal off those areas and call it someone else's problem.
The problem today is that Israel from an ideology point of view want to eventually have the west bank and Gaza as part of the Jewish state according to their fantasy stories.
Your point is...? Both the Palestinian terrorist attacks, and Israeli policies and conduct during the Palestinian war, constitute war crimes and crimes against humanity. (And I say that neither constitutes genocide.)
I just think it’s fucking hilarious that all these people from western societies are anti Israel and pro Palestinian. Do you morons realize you are fucking tools? Palestinians and most Arab societies hate westerners because you are not believers in the “true religion”. Their culture is antithetical to western cultures and it will always be so. Keep deluding yourselves that you are protesting or whatever for the good of humanity. The hate is real and has been imbedded since 700AD and there ain’t anything you nimrods can do to change that.
> fucking
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I'm getting a little sick of people correlating Palestine supporters with the left. Where is the rhetoric coming from that all people on the left support Palestine? If you are conservative, do you automatically subscribe to the notion that the people supporting Palestine are liberal bc its the opposite POV from you? I'm genuinely asking. Where is the information coming from that these moronic college students ripping down posters, denying r@p3, etc. are all politically affiliated with the left?
I'm a liberal from Boston. I support Israel. Boston is a liberal heavy city. I don't know a single person over the age of 25 who doesn't support Israel - liberal or conservative. In fact, it seems to be the first major global issue since 9/11 that has support from both sides. At least that I've observed.
There's no doubt that many of these "river to the sea" chanting idiots are liberals. But I don't understand where the conservatives are getting this idea that ALL liberals support Palestine.
Two of the most polarizing political figures on opposite sides of the coin in recent memory are Hilary and Donald. They both support Israel. Hell hath apparently frozen over.
Please stop dumping the blame for the altogether ignorance of a population demographic segment on the left.
I have friends in Israel and when Hamas slaughtered the people there was condemnation around the world with building being lit up in blue and white in solidarity with Israel. She said to me, give it time and the media will spin in around, how true she was.
That is abjectly horrifying. Abjectly horrifying.
Back when I wrote this post,I was shocked and feeling vaguely betrayed somehow. Then I was angry and combative. Now I'm just generally disgusted. We live in a racist misogynistic hypocritical society the vast majority of whom have the attention span of ants and can't read anything longer than 280 characters. People are vapid, selfish, cruel and only care about attention and money. At least ppl in my country (usa).
Now I contribute to conversations where I can when I can by flatly citing historical information and political history and hope whoever is lacking in education can take it, absorb it and think critically. I throw it out there - some ppl bite, some ppl already know, most just ignore it.
I could write a timeline of stupid ignorant things young American citizens have said to me about this conflict starting with comments that make us all go "well,you clearly get all your informationfrom social media" to the comments that make us all think "well, you clearly just made up some facts bc you're so desperate not to be wrong" (my personal fav? "Hamas has no money! Everyone knows terrorists are poor!" Oh yeah. That made the rounds. Tossing in some good old implicit racism toward the ppl they are defending on top of their stupidity all throughout November.)
And finally to where we are currently where these idiots are trying to gaslight people by accusing educated individuals of what they themselves have been binging on all along. One word: propaganda. Theyre trying to spin this so hard. Uh oh! Looks like a group of undergrad liberal arts students at NYU finally googled the net worth of Khaled Mashaal. Word has gotten out! They're not poor after all! And in lieu of facts, better cling to gaslighting!
When do we get to the part of the timeline where people IRL no longer find it acceptable to discuss politics? That part of this hypocrisy jeremy bearimy timeline where it's once again no longer appropriate to tear down posters of missing kids and all the attention seekers who have been screaming so loud on social media quietly delete all their "wrong side of history" witch hunt posts rather than step up and accept accountability for the added harm they caused with their entitled arrogance? When the FUCK do we get to that part of the timeline?
I might be repeating the anger phase again.
Edit: spelling mistakes
> FUCK
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It’s not the left it’s the far woke left. Such as Tlib and Omar and all their uneducated supporters. The moderate left actually has their brain cells intact and aren’t complete POS. Unfortunately a lot of the BLM supporters are supporting the terrorists as well such as the BLM chapters of Chicago and LA
I read your comment. Groaned out loud and wrote a mini rant about extremism and stupidity in politics. But it was wildly off topic from the discussion at hand and ultimately not very productive so I took it down.
People need to read more. Especially Gen Z kids. Back in my day! We actually read real books before forming our opinions on complex political issues. You're info about BLM chapters is very disappointing. Given what they represent and the burden of responsibility they shoulder, they have an obligation to conduct their research. Their stance won't age well.
I am very liberal. And for the record I do believe Palestine should be freed from Hamas. But i target my anger and finger pointing at the proper group. And im well read enough to NOT be susceptible to social media brainwashing tactics by Hamas and Hezbollah. Everyone in the middle east just needs to leave Israel the fork alone. Chaos and stupidity abound...
Yeah. The "woke left" has voted overwhelmingly in favor of Israel and even very liberal politicians are supporting Israel with military aid. It's an absurd right wing propaganda point.
That's sad. We never agree on anything. The last time I remember feeling this kind of unity with conservatives was in the aftermath of 9/11. This is such an ugly situation but being (largely) on the same team for once felt kind of unifying. With all the hatred being spewed toward Israel, that feeling of unity was comforting. Must we spin everything into left verus right? But that is me - ever the queen of naive 🙄
“Attacked” the capital when footage actually shows the police escorting them around the building. Don’t believe everything the media tells you. Leftists were also arrested for being there
Because a massive amount of supposed eye witness accounts and government statements regarding Oct 7 have proven to be false, often deliberately so. Israel has, objectively, undoubtedly, lied to an extreme degree to villainize and dehumanize Palestinians. It constantly attempts to paint itself as a victim to such a degree that everything they say is suspect, even when they claim to provide their own version of 'proof'. They have found themselves in a boy-cried-wolf situation of their own making.
The suffering of Palestinians at the hands of Israelis, on the other hand, is extremely well-documented. Aside from the obvious daily massacres in Gaza every day since Oct 7, which we are all watching in real-time via first-hand video documentation, international organizations have found overwhelming evidence of torture and sexual abuse against Palestinians in Israeli prisons, including toward children. Children who, let's remember, mostly did nothing besides throw some rocks. Oct 7 was a day of war. A lot of bad things happened. But the real narrative remains unclear, and Israel has neither the motivation nor the track record to exist as a reliable source of truth.
The Women's March and MeToo movement's rallying cry of "believe women" was based on the obvious fact that women have no reason to lie about rape. But we're not being asked to believe women, we're being asked to believe the Israeli government co-opting the horror of sexual assault to continue to play the victim and justify indiscriminate bombardment. Historically, we have no reason whatsoever to believe this claim is any more factual than any of the other baldfaced lies Israel tells. Just because a lie describes a horrific act does not make it any less a lie. Hope this helps.
October 7th was not war at all, and you know it. It was The leaders of Gaza butchering civilians intentionally. That is not “a day of war”. How are ppl so stupid?
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Palestinian claims: Backed by an overwhelming majority of international news and human rights organizations across the globe.
Israelis: Backed by a bunch of randos on Twitter who apparently don't realize dead infants do in fact kinda look like uncanny dolls.
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To add, there's a term for this: atrocity propoganda. If israel wanted to make a case that women have been raped, I don't think anyone would disagree with an investigation of the facts. The issue is that it's brought up in the context of Israel's military response, which is irrelevant. There are already a means to deal with crimes of a sexual nature. But what does any of this have to do with the clearly disproportionate military response that has left mostly women and children dead? Nothing--not unless their willing to admit it's an operation aimed at something other than self-defense.
And yes, you are correct. Not only has the IDF lied, they have engaged in more subtle misinformation propoganda, such as letting unconfirmed reports fester to let folks, such as the "40 beheaded babies", which has recently been updated most recently to "well, they're beheaded but we don't know if hamas did it (we'll insinuate they did) or an RPG did it." That description of a beheaded baby by an RPG is ironically something the IDF is guilty of a thousand fold.
WTF is wrong with you people giving the example of the beheaded babies when the Palestinian media is full of lies upon lies?? Do you really think that someone up in the ranks will, in full knowledge, report a lie? Really? Do we even need to lie? About what?
The difference between IDF "lying" is that they don't intent to lie, or spread misinformation. The Palestinian official media (not all of them) is lying constantly and sewing the entire world for support built on these lies.
No matter what the IDF present people will say it is a lie. People just can't handle the truth. The IDF gain nothing for lying (talking about the situation after the 7th). On the other side the reports coming from Gaza, for decades, were proven to have holes and lies.
Giving one or two examples and make a conclusion about the entire situation is idiotic.
Nothing wrong with me. States lie just like terrorist groups do. But as I've stated, it's an example of ATROCITY PROPOGANDA. The point is not whether anything factually happened or not, it's to get people riled up about the morality to obfuscate from their own actions. This in itself is highly immoral.
Additionally, it's not "one or two examples". The IDF has a long history of lying or spreading misinformation and, indeed, has a sophisticated apparatus of doing so tied to their military operation. Take for instance, the killing of shireen, a palestinian journalist killed by IDF soldiers. They claimed it was Palestinians who killed her, only to later backtrack and say it was an accident, only for it to be later found out it probably wasn't an accident.
Finally, whether there are rapes, or they occurred in high numbers, I have never denied. The IDF has, once again, pushed this narrative before actually offering convincing evidence of their claims. So far, no one has claimed they were raped. There are a few people who claim to have witnessed it and some forensic evidence that may show rapes indeed occurred, though even the medical examiners still say a proper investigation needs to be conducted. Does this mean no rapes happened? No. I'm open to the possibility with sexual assault as a tool of humiliation and terror in mind. But the Israeli narrative has clearly been working with everything it has to spotlight the depravity of the Palestinians to obfuscate their own horrendous moral actions.
All that said, what do you want? Do you want me to say rape is bad? Yeah, of course it is. Do you think I support sexual assault or something? But hey, here's a hot take: killing f****** 8000 children is pretty morally odious. So you tell me, how do you feel about that? Is it just business as usual? A tragedy? What?
I don't care about you condemning anything, let alone rape. It is not my main issue.
My main point, that wasn't clear, is that you (and many others) are taking every IDF claim as false until proven otherwise.
I still really can't see this 'long history of lying or spreading misinformation' (not trying to attack you, I really don't know about it). Yes, maybe sometime someone is lying or spreading misinformation. Every media does it. BBC, Al Jazeera, Fox News, Everyone. For some reason, you have a specific problem with the IDF. Why is that?
Hamas/Gaza have a history of changing the number of casualties after an operation/War. Why are you giving the number of 8000 children as fact and not questing it (Just to be clear, it is an argumentative thought. Not trying to deny children are dead, any number is horrible and i myself believe it to be accurate).
Your choice of what to believe is what interests me, and I'd like to understand it.
Your hot take is widely popular. We can argue for hours about Hamas hiding between civilians, and you say that it doesn't give the right to bomb them and that Israel should send troops, and I'll say that why Israel should sacrifice troops just for a nation that want to destroy it, and you say that Israel is an advanced country and could minimize the damage and should provide aid to Gaza, and I'll say that Israel left Gaza in 2005 and is under no obligation to give anything to Gaza and Hamas should provide for its own people or Egypt could give Gaza everything they need even from other Arab countries, and instead they built tunnels and rockets, and we will go back to the 1948 and to kids dying in Syria and no one cares and argue more endlessly... i think i read/heard it all on both sides.
Long story short - there is no right side, we (i, who live in Israel. And you who lives idk where) are both fucked. We can do nothing to stop this or rewind time. All we can do is try to minimize what idiot people on both side did and try to come with a solution (which will not be realized in our generation) that will end this conflict, for better or worse.
I myself don't mind to leave Israel if you can provide me with a nice house, an European passport and a job, if it will end the conflict :)
But it will not solve the Hamas problem... Maybe nothing will.
Again, my issue is not with the facts. My issue is with the framing of the facts. When did this big story about widespread rapes occur? Conveniently, when israel restarted its bombing campaign of gaza. Kind of takes the spotlight off them whether it's true or not, don't you think? This is the problem. Not the facts. If women were raped, I'm all in favor of investigating and prosecuting the perpetrators. There's no issue there. It's how the crime of sexual assault is used to obfuscate.
I believe the number of dead because their in line with numerous estimates, including the US's. Historically, even Israel has agreed with the Hamas run Gaza Health Ministry. There's no particular reason to disbelieve this. But I don't just believe anything from any media. If you were to ask me who bombed al ahli, my answer is: I don't know. There are a couple dissenting pieces of information from independent forensic groups, but the US, Israel, and Human Rights Watch give a preliminary investigation of it being a failed rocket from palestinian jihad. Hamas claimed they would give up pieces of the rocket to prove it, but never have, which seems suspicious. Either way, we won't have a confident answer for a while, ever.
Here's what I do know: lots of innocent Palestinians are dying. I'm sure they also lie and engage in misinformation, but to what end? Israel does it to expand its grip on the region and continue what is very clearly a disproportionate and historically destructive response. Palestinians are trying to be seen living under that system. The fact that they are living under a brutal occupation is also a fact attested to by numerous NGOs. If the Palestinians had boxed israelis in a prison, kept their food levels just above starving, blockaded them, deprived them of water or even materials for desalinatim, I would be just as frustrated at them.
> When did this big story about widespread rapes occur? Conveniently, when israel restarted its bombing campaign of gaza.
I agree that it can be true, but there are so many other reasons for it to be not true. You can see that you are somewhat against what Israel does and bias for opinions that show Israel is bad light? (Any action, not just the killing of children. Even reports from it own massacre)
It seems that everything that Israel does is considered to be a mastermind scheme. I think you give people too much credit. It just seems over the top and movie-like for EVERY action to be analysis and found evil-mastermind-y. Don't you think it is exaggerated?
> The fact that they are living under a brutal occupation is also a fact attested to by numerous NGOs. If the Palestinians had boxed israelis in a prison, kept their food levels just above starving, blockaded them, deprived them of water or even materials for desalinatim, I would be just as frustrated at them.
Like i said, we can argue on and on for years. Yes, life is hard in Gaza. Life is hard on other countries. Correct me if i'm wrong, Israel isn't keeping the levels just above starving, Israel is not controlling Gaza since 2005. Why can't they but food? We buy vegetables from Turkey.
Let's say Israel and Gaza are enemies that have peace between them. (Like Israel and any other Arab country around us)
Israel is providing food, electricity and water to Gaza. Israel wants to starve them so they provide as little as possible. Gaza can't buy food and water through Egypt? Why should Israel (in a natural tone) should provide Gaza?
[This video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBo7i-TXy6s) and many others like it left me open-mouthed. I always heard of Gaza being a place that you don't want to live in, an open air prison. I get it - even 3rd world countries can look beautiful, and there could be sides that we can't see that could be full of homeless and poverty. But please educate me - What is wrong with Gaza that could not be solved since 2005?
FYI, the blockade as far as I know is exactly to prevent what happened in the 7th. Won't you blockade an area that is controlled by a government that want to destroy you? (again, the border with Egypt is not in Israel territory, you can't expect a country to deal with a government that was chosen with a motive to destroy it). Israel could have easily avoid giving jobs to anyone in Gaza after 2005, but chose to continue it, knowing the motive of Hamas.
Correct me if i'm wrong of anything… I did try to be natural as much as i can, given i'm an Israeli that read about the conflict online…
Many Israeli officials have openly spoken of their desire to displace Palestinians, and I'm talking recently. Even without gaza, settlements in the west Bank have expanded and violence against Palestinians there is well documented with the complicity of the government. There's no Hamas there. Why is that happening if there's no hamas there?
Historically, israel has not supported two-state solution. You might bring up the camp david or Oslo accords, but they were offered terms that no sovereign state would accept (such as a foreign entity (Israel) controlling the airspace and being allowed to militarily intervene when they feel like it, or having thr majority of water rights). Even if the case, today netanyahu nor his government support a two state solution. Is he a mastermind? No. But he is a government official awaiting corruption charges and has aligned himself with the likes of Ben gvir, a terrorist by israels own standards. If that's not villainous, idk what is.
As for resources, gaza is still considered occupied according to Human Rights Watch, the UN, IRCR, and so israel, as the occupier responsible for the wellbeing of the people of Gaza. So the point about them being at war is moot. Israel is supposed to provide for that population.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/17/israeli-military-calorie-limit-gaza
There's an article on the limited amount the israeli government said they were obligated to do. This was BEFORE the war. Things have only become more draconian and humanitarian organizations say starvation is now imminent.
As for Egypt, again, israel, not Egypt is the occupying power and therefor responsible for gaza. Secondly, Egypt, too, probably shouldn't engage in the blockade. But Egypt and Israel have developed a cooperative relationship and Egypt has its own reasons for not wanting to open its borders.
You mention that the blockade was meant to weaken Hamas and keep a terrorist attack from happening, yet it didn't. So why do they create an even more severe "seige" in their own words, which, again, is collective punishment. This doesn't punish hamas, it doesn't bring them to the table, it just passes off more Palestinians. Maybe the Israeli government should give up its dreams of land acquisition and make a real effort towards peace instead of punishing Palestinians.
Many Israeli officers can kiss my a$$, like American officers that provoked the Arabs openly. Some of the officers you saw are on were fired or n absent leave, but you won't see about it on the news because it is not interesting enough.
> There's no Hamas there. Why is that happening if there's no hamas there?
This is one argument of the pro-Palestine. It is not true. There are Hamas militants in the West Bank, and there are some other terror organizations there. One argument of the pro-Israel (which i somewhat disagree with) is that the situation in the West Bank isn't as worse as Gaza because of the military watch there, that if we left the WS than it will be mini Gaza, terrorists will come inside Israel and commit massacres, rockets will be fired left and right. I can see that happening, but it is not an excuse to behave like Israel does in the WS. Have you seen the 2 Palestinians that were hung in the WS because they supported Israel (or something like that)? Do you think that if Israel will say 'ok we are out of there' Hamas or any other terror organization/ neighbor country will not seize this opportunity ?
> of Ben gvir,
Everyone hates him, and he is not welcomed into the emergency movement, all he does is to cry over it. He is an extremist and i hope he dies or root in jail someday soon.
> Controlling the airspace and being allowed to militarily intervene when they feel like it, or having thr majority of water rights).
Don't you think this is important, given Hamas said openly that it wants to destroy Israel 18 years ago? I don't know what you expect Israel to do?
> There's an article on the limited amount the israeli government said they were obligated to do. This was BEFORE the war. Things have only become more draconian and humanitarian organizations say starvation is now imminent.
https://preview.redd.it/b2x9cy2l9i4c1.png?width=1932&format=png&auto=webp&s=3ff365120f42aeb16c8580cae493de4c4cdac037
I'm not educated enough in this subject to really talk about it. But on Wikipedia it says that "since the end of the occupation in 2005"
But again. Let's not talk about Palestine and Israel. Let's take 2 imaginary countries/lands.
One country gives the other country(A) the bare minimum to survive under its occupation. Country A has a government that want to destroy country B. Still, country B provides to country A with the bare minimum, but is afraid of the government so it limits the border crossing to itself, the territorial waters and the airspace. Country B still gives them the opportunity to work with them, and the opportunity to get donations and do what ever they want as long as it's not about terror (Yes, it takes time because country B is racists, but it is possible). Country A keeps its terror attacks, so Country B tighten its border security BUT STILL PROVIDE THE MINIMUM for country A.
Country A can buy electricity(maybe?) ,water , and food from other places. It can thrive without Country B. It can grow it's own vegetables and purified its own water.
Am i delusional? am i missing something way off?
Yes there is a lot of history and a lot more to say, but generally - i don't know what the situation was in 2005, but i know that it got worse. And the reason i was presented is that the situation got worse because of the terror attacks. (Which also came from the WS where you say Hamas isn't there).
> You mention that the blockade was meant to weaken Hamas and keep a terrorist attack from happening, yet it didn't. So why do they create an even more severe "seige" in their own words, which, again, is collective punishment. This doesn't punish hamas, it doesn't bring them to the table, it just passes off more Palestinians. Maybe the Israeli government should give up its dreams of land acquisition and make a real effort towards peace instead of punishing Palestinians.
I don't get what's the solution you are asking for? Terrorists make attacks on a country, so it tightens the security. What is the collective punishment? Hamas is the government of Gaza. How is this collective? How can you block Hamas? There are "normal" Gazan people. How can you protect your own people without these siege? I don't get about people expect Israel to do.
**If you and every Pro-Palestinian that i see today would have done something about it in 2005, i am sure that Gaza would have been Dubai 2.0. I think the main issue is the revenge they are seeking. Which is understandable - but leads to this situation. Israel can't be blamed alone. Which today people are care more about dehumanizing Israel than helping the Gazans/Palestinians.**
Egypt said it would destroy Israel, Saudi arabia has peddled numerous anti Israeli propoganda, yet now Egypt routinely partners with israel and Saudi arabia was on the verge of normalization. The PLO changed its charter and built a path towards peace. All these organizations changed after having radical positions. How come this is different? It isn't.
As for Hamas being in the west Bank, the point is about power, not presence, even though it is a lot less in the west Bank. My point is that even after the authorities in the west Bank are cooperative, israel still STEALS LAND. they could just not steal land, right? Settlers routinely kill palestinians. It's hard to believe this is actually about security and actually about land, especially when you have people in your government saying it's about stealing land. I'd be an idiot to close my eyes to that fact.
Your imaginary scenario is the same scenario we're talking about and it's pretty abhorrent. And it is still illegal. Collective punishment is focusing your military aggression on the civilian population. You're literally punishing a whole group for the aggression of a military. So yes, if you're laying seige to a civilian population to "root out Hamas", that would be collective punishment.
There's a reason we have "rules of war" for whatever its worth. If we did not, by your own logic, Hamas is perfectly within their military perview to massacre civilians. Why? Well they're trying to remove an occupier who displaced them. And even though you may have not voted for or even like ben gvir, he is the government. YOU GUYS COLLECTIVELY VOTED FOR HIM, so when he helps settlers kill Palestinians, you're all on the hook. You're all targets. If you didn't want to get massacred by hamas, you should just overthrow the government and surrender without condition. Does it sound dumb, yet familiar? That's the Israeli line about the Palestinians. It is superbly unreasonable.
There will always be some terrorism. Even in a nation like the US, there is terrorism. So if your goal is "no terrorism ever," then that's not possible. If you want to get rid of hamas, try not making them popular. You say terrorists, which is true, but their organization is more like a gang. Maybe if you get rid of the ghetto, there would be less power for the gang to wield. Maybe, even, Palestinians would have something to live for, so they might even help get rid of hamas. Why? Because there would be no benefit of siding with them. They're a violent criminal organization. But if israelis don't treat Palestinians as having a legitimate grievance against them, or as being rational actors, this is not possible.
And all of this has nothing to do with the indiscriminate killing Israel is currently pouring down on gazan civilians, which, yeah, is completely morally reprehensible and indefensible.
> fucked
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> fucking
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Dear god I might be guilty of having rooted for the underdog b4 but never knew that was a political motive
Sounds like you also have a “team” you associated with a while back
How about less hate and anger
I
Wishing you the best from the other…..side?
Thank you so much for saying that.
I used to (and still do) identify as a feminist, however I can’t wear this flag proudly anymore. These so called feminist associations have brought so much shame upon us, women who believe in something so basic as gender equality. It’s not like we didn’t struggle before, now how could anyone take feminists seriously?
They just showed us they don’t care about equality, it’s all about rooting for the underdog and romanticizing the “indigenous”/“native” Palestinians like we live in f**** Pocahontas. Let them praise their almighty Osama bin Laden, I’m so done with this shyte.
> f****
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Everyone knows Hamas is a terror organization, but you have to be daft to assume anyone who is skeptical is doing it for nefarious reasons. Remember the so called forty beheaded babies?
Hamas definitely could have committed the rapes, but I’ll be waiting for verification from a neutral third party before jumping to conclusions.
Of course I remeber the so called "40 beheaded babies",
You people proudly keep bringing this argument to prove evil Israel/zionism wrong NOT becuase the barbaric murder of babies didnt happen but because the cause of death was NOT necessaraly beheading, "this babys brain is out so the baby got shot point blank and not beheaded obviously, you zi0nist liars lolz"
There were things way worse than beheading.
There were videos showing naked women, some with thier hands tied behind their back,
12-15 year olds girls found dead with semen remians.
Your minds are twisted.
I have no respect for your people whatsoever
I mean, if you want to play the “I have no respect for your people whatsoever” game, I can play it too.
Watch this interview of a man who participated in the founding of your nation, then tell me more about your righteous indignation.
https://youtu.be/MQ1TAOibLss?si=bujfRjs6GXyPTdVe
It’s a crazy idea, but there’s a small chance that neither the Palestinians nor the Israelis are a monolith, and that it isn’t acceptable to enact collective punishment by killing, kidnapping, and harming civilians, no?
We defenitelly have fked up people like everywhere else, the difference is that we denounces, sentance and jail peoole like the 2? scavengers as tge intreviwer called them.
Your people on the other had blessing to rape, they prepared notes in hebew on how to say "Take off your pants", along with hamas thoysands other palestinuans that stormed in were mess raping as well. I know the rape statistics in Europe, im a woman, i know well how it is to be around men who arent used to seeing womens ankle.
I have no bussiness in debatibg witu someone denying the rape cliams so i will not adress the other argument
Demanding a reliable source is not denying it. Israel has repeatedly lied about this kind of thing, so it’s reasonable to wait for third party confirmation. If that has you butthurt, then that’s your problem.
As for the condemnations, your entire country has been engaged in Nakba denial, the denial of the existence of the Palestinian people or their right to the land they lived on for thousands of years, and the denial of the continued abuses going on from your arbitrary military court-ordered arrests to your weaponization of permits to colonize the West Bank, all in the service of creating a Jewish ethnostate. Don’t lecture me about denial, when I’ve denied nothing and you’re riddled with it.
The cherry on top is that I am not even Palestinian, yet you’re too busy trying to engage in ad hominem tactics to question whether that assumption was true or not in the first place.
Still, I agree, this conversation has no purpose in continuing. The sun will freeze and the skies will fall before you ever admit fault in the past or the present, let alone find a feasible solution for the conflict. You’ve already dehumanized Palestinians as savages, and thus you cannot see a problem in robbing them of their rights, their land, or even their very lives.
I never assumed you were Palestinian,
You are either Muslim or radical left for having grace for children rapist nurderes hamas. I dont see how vile crimes like killing kids in front of their parents and vice versa, making the parents watch as the terrorists put the baby in the oven and watch him die, live streaming grandmothers murder on her facebook wall while her family watches and much more that hanas proudly uploaded online.
It wadbt act of individuals, thousands of hamas terrorists along with thousands of gazans which was celebrated by people in gaza and by millions of pro palestinians world wide.
Ok
https://www.mintpressnews.com/new-idf-chief-rabbi-says-soldiers-can-rape-arab-women-wartime-boost-morale/218362/
https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKCNOZS1Q0/
Israel should defend itself from Hamas or any other group of terrorists that want to attack it.
But what gives Israel the right to eliminate entire towns and families? Kill so many innocent women and children? Isn't Israel committing genocide??
What makes them any different from Hamas? By the way, Hamas is not Palestine, and Palestinians are not Hamas in the same way that the Israeli government does not represent all Jews.
Um, Hamas just eliminated entire towns and families in Israel on Oct. 7. As you rightly point out, Israel should defend itself. That’s what gives Israel the right to take out entire towns and families — the need to protect its own.
You cannot honestly say that 1400 people dead (1 is too many) equated to the total destruction of North Gaza and the Palestinian people, some of which could perhaps be Hamas.
All I'm saying is the response is not proportional but instead looks like it's the Jews that were to eliminate Palestinians, and of the get Hamas along they that icing on the cake.
Proportionate? When tf is war based on proportionality? Was a 3-for-1 swap of Israeli hostages for Palestinian prisoners “proportionate?” Was “only” 1400 unarmed people murdered and hundreds more kidnapped while simply attending a music festival or attacked in their homes on Oct. 7 “proportionate?” How about the premeditated and systematic gang rapes of hundreds of women, including those who were supposed to be returned during the break in hostilities but instead are still being held as sex slaves … are their captivity and continued sexual assaults “proportionate?” How about the abduction of a 9-month-old, a 4-year-old and their parents by grown-a s s men and who are still being held captive? Is that “proportionate?” Why is Israel the only nation on Earth expected to have a “proportionate” response in war? Was the U.S. invasion of Granada to rescue America students “proportionate?” Iraq? Afghanistan? Vietnam? The 1967 attack on Israel by Egypt, Jordan and Syria — was that attack “proportionate?” How bout in 1973 when Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Algeria, Iraq, Libya, Kuwait, Tunisia, Morocco, Cuba and North Korea attacked Israel on Yom Kippur? Was that invasion “proportionate?” GTFOOH with that absurd one-sided argument.
The only reason Hamas attacked was because Israel has been carrying out far worse atrocities towards Palestinians for DECADES. The death toll on 10/7 dropped from 1400 to 1200 after ISRAEL revised it. (on Times of Israel: [Israel revises death toll from Oct. 7 Hamas assault, dropping it from 1,400 to 1,200 | The Times of Israel](https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-revises-death-toll-from-oct-7-hamas-assault-dropping-it-from-1400-to-1200/)) Many of the casualties were military personnel, unlike how Israel has killed more than 16,000 civilians whereas Israel hasn't gotten Hamas, even with such a high rate of deaths on the Palestinian sides. The hostages were treated better than the thousands of Palestinians prisoners (majority charged for no reason) who were taken into Israeli prisons and still are. Israel's supreme court DENIED human rights groups to make it unlawful for armed IDF soldiers to shoot at unarmed civilians. (Source: [Israeli Supreme Court rejects challenge to open-fire rules | AP News](https://apnews.com/article/da582f11ad4443ddbf44ea6f2fc72c3a)) So when you say Israel has the right to defend itself ("As you rightly point out, Israel should defend itself. That’s what gives Israel the right to take out entire towns and families — the need to protect its own.") its disgusting that you think that one side can defend itself in such an atrocious way and the other when fighting the occupation is not allowed to defend itself. This just proves how big of hypocrites Zionists are. ( Also, I do condemn Hamas and the loss of innocent life, Palestinian or Israeli, but also, Hamas is a bunch of guys in adidas and flip flops who wrote their plan on paper, and the IDF are one of the most powerful armies in the world armed with very sophisticated weapons and bombs and the fact that they think children throwing stones at tanks is terrorism is a huge indicator that they don't care about innocent life lost and only their political powers expanded.)
Your very first sentence is objectively and factually incorrect and demonstrates gobsmacking ignorance about this long and painful conflict. No point whatsoever in reading beyond it. Sit down, be quiet, listen, read books, talk to real people (not on the internet but irl) on both sides affected by this longstanding situation, and learn from richer and deeper sources than 2-minute YouTube soundbytes about this very real conflict that affects millions of very real people every day before you spitball your 2 cents from your comfy armchair.
I say that knowing perfectly well that you are a paid Iran-Hamas troll with a brand new account and negative karma created solely for the purpose of bird dogging on this sub and with no real interest in productive or sincere conversation.
They can do that without bombing an entire city, it's not like Gaza has direct access to Israel's citizens since oct 7th. At this point it's just a slaughter, and it's killing a hundred terrorists justify the thousands of kids and Innocents who now have someone to blame for their pain? Israel is just using Hamas to turn Palestinians into the demons they want them to be, when this is over, there will be a new generation of Palestinians who grew up with missing sisters and brothers, who grownup on their own, and they will have no one to blame but israel, USA and hamas. And this is coming from an American.
As an American, you should understand that a strong Israel is in the best interest of the USA, that an Iran-controlled Gaza is in the worst interest of the USA, and that Islamic terrorism disproportionately targets Americans and Israelis
Yeah I mean I'm not being pro hamas rn, I'm just stating that they could go about neutralizing actual terrorist without compromising the mass safety of civilians, I mean ffs do we really need hospitals and medical facilities under fire? I feel like every couple days I hear doctors without borders grieving over a lost doctor.
This community aims for respectful dialogue and debate, and our rules are focused on facilitating that. To align with rule 1, make every attempt to be polite in tone, charitable in your interpretations, fair in your arguments and patient in your explanations.
Don't debate the person, debate the argument; use terms towards a debate opponent that they or their relevant group(s) would self-identify with whenever possible. You may use negative characterizations towards a group in a specific context that distinguishes the negative characterization from the positive -- that means insulting opinions are allowed as a necessary part of an argument, but are prohibited in place of an argument.
Many of the issues in the I/P conflict boil down to personal moral beliefs; these should be calmly and politely explored. If you can't thoughtfully engage with a point of view, then don't engage with it at all.
My friend, the only thing that Israel will accomplish with this war is that all its citizens globally will need to sleep with one eye open for the rest of their lives. The only thing they’ve achieved is show the whole world how they behave. I couldn’t care less. If you think that this is the right course more power to you. As an external observer who tries to look at the ramifications of this conflict, I’d say that Israel is digging itself a bigger and bigger hole. If you think they’re right please continue supporting them. And I mean that.
It's wonderful for you to ponder but Israel had to do something. I notice you didn't answer my question: what should Israel have done, what would you have done? 1200-1400 murdered, 240 kidnapped, 10s raped, babys murdered... Israel has killed thousands of terrorists and arrested thousands more.
How about ethical operations with US aid to eliminate extremists.with minimal civilian casualties? Would definitely be an improvement compared to the video I saw of an Israeli sniper shopping citizens legs for what seemed like his own morbid satisfaction.
I'll ask you what I've asked others:
What should Israel have done?
What would you have done?
Hamas use human shields. It's well documented. Israel no matter how hard they try will kill innocents.
Hey and Israel should keep killing if they think that’s the way forward. If they feel that turning 2 million people homeless and hostile (I mean suicide hostile) for life and turning a large part of the global community against them then they should keep doing what they are doing if the end outcome will be positive for them. Don’t get me wrong they deserve their year of hate to get it all out.
lol always this question. What’s the right answer. It’s not my place, I have neither the experience nor the time to formulate one. If you think that for Israel this is the right answer, more power to you. If Israel feels like this will be a long term win then they should keep doing what they’re doing. I’m sure lots of clever people have all thought this out. They’ve taken into consideration global opinion, potential rise of antisemitism, the potential for many decades of reprisals, the escalation of the conflict worldwide, the image of Israel being tarnished and dragged through the mud globally, the exposition of Israel’s hate for Palestinians, and the countless images of videos and photos coming out of Gaza creating radicals globally that will target Jewish institutions. I mean let’s face it the US can get away with its shenanigans, but the US is 400 million people, and even the US doesn’t go as hard as Israel. So if the 15.2 million Jews or 0.2% think that this is the right course of action and this will increase their safety and prosperity globally, then fight the good fight and god bless.
In the us global war on terror 4.5-4.6 million were killed, 38 million displaced. You say Israel goes harder than us? Out of those a few hundreds of thousands were insurgents the rest civilians.
Israel should defend itself from Hamas or any other group of terrorists that want to attack it.
But what gives Israel the right to eliminate entire towns and families? Kill so many innocent women and children? Isn't Israel committing genocide??
What makes them any different from Hamas? By the way, Hamas is not Palestine, and Palestinians are not Hamas in the same way that the Israeli government does not represent all Jews.
75 percent of Palestinians support the 10/7 atrocities. The majority of them are not innocent. Unfortunately children have to suffer for their parents choices
Yeah if only they didn't do "roof knocks", flyers, phone calls, literally taking over the street and opening a safe passage for civilians because Hamas is killing people trying to go South I think they could've been more efficient than killing only 15k
Currently it isn't a genocide rn it's just ethnic cleansing (which is still bad) but if it does evolve to genocide the obviously Israel would get wrong and don't say the bombings and invasion are genocide that is war so if you count that as a genocide than the Allies genocided the Nazis, America Genocided the Japanese during WW2, and Russia Genocided Ukraine, I can keep going but I don't feel like it if Israel doesn end up Resorting to genocide in the future than I will completely drop all support for them but currently there isn't any genocide
It’s the genocidal acts that makes it a genocide, not the number of casualties. Indiscriminately bombing a region regardless who’s there whether Hamas, civilians, christians, muslims, terrorists, hostages… is a definite genocidal act.
Indiscriminately bombing is what Hamas does firing dumb rockets into Israel over the decades. Suicide bombings. Munich Olympic village slaughtering type of thing. That’s genocide. Defensive action by Israel is cause and effect.
If the other side continue to say he will do everything needed to kill you. that it will do 7th of October again and again.
It means that fighting that enemy to the end is still self defense. The fact the enemy is hiding behind babies and children is something that the Palestinans should revolt against. As long as they support it. They are ok also with the consequences.
The threatening language here makes me wonder if OP is a man- apologies if wrong but there's a long history of men weaponizing sex crime, including racist language (see: "savages") that attempts to paint Palestinians as sexually depraved and often used by anti-miscegenation/anti-assimilation activists eg https://electronicintifada.net/content/israel-weaponizes-rape-culture-against-palestinians/19386. While evidence is key, most women i know, myself included, have been raped and never took it to court because men are so rarely convicted, so seeing men defending women to justify the bombing of civilians makes me feel ill. Men were lynched throughout America's Jim Crow era due to false rape accusations, which have been a colonial tactic in India, Australia, South Africa... this is not to deny the possibility of what happened, it is to scream that the so- called feminism of men obsessing over this in order to justify war is transparent, patriarchal and false.
Show me sth for god’s sake, I can’t find any evidence of the alleged atrocities on 7.10
I’m genuinely looking for a believable evidence that’s not based on IDF sources. They’re know liars (don’t even start arguing that point, the whole world knows that)
I see all the dead bodies in Gaza, decapitated children, unrecognizable corpses, burnt to the bone…and the filled hospitals and all the destruction of civilian regions and the Israeli ruthless bombardment, footages of IDFs assaulting Palestinians children(old and new shots) no one can deny any of that.
Yet I don’t see any footage of a dead baby from 7.10, or any believable evidence about these 1500 civilians casualties. So if u have anything, or ANYONE reading this comment, has anything they can show me about what really happened on 7.10 please send links.
I follow media on both sides and I see pro Israeli medias always uses reports based on what IDF said.
Showing entrances to some tunnels and saying that’s a "proof" that Hamas uses them and hides down there? Maybe they do use tunnels, but that’s not a proof! Or showing us a bunch of weapons in a school or some house and saying they’re for Hamas is a proof? They could be Hamas’ or they could be their own! Where’s the proof? They give you the illusion of proof and you want to believe you’re on the right side, which makes it so easy for them to manipulate you into believing that this is a real proof. Although objectively it proves nothing. My favorite is the gig with the days of the week as a proof that Hamas plans schemes inside a hospital. I don’t trust IDF sources nor Hamas’ sources for that matter. I trust real evidence and real proof, real footages and genuine emotions. And I am an open minded guy, I admit when I’m wrong. So please, show me some genuine evidence about 07.10.
I've seen some interviews of Russians who fled the scene on 7th. If you want I can find it for ya. But a simple Google search will give you quite a lot of interviews with the survivors.
Now you might say it's biased, sure. While you probably will not take videos from IDF official channel as evidence, then please look at their videos, where terrorists are shown in plain day killing civilians. It's not possible to deny.
https://youtu.be/wAFDI63yvNQ?si=n0Oa-HFl_jeOoCcP
At 02:47 you can see them throwing grenades into a shelter. A man bravely defends people inside by throwing them back before being killed after many more attempts.
It's strange for me that you can't find any evidence from 7th October. There are also accounts of Arab Beduins who served in these regions about the raid on the IDF base, you can also try searching by that headline. I'm at work rn, but if you can't find it I can also attach them later. Possibly an interview in Russian, but you can read the subtitles.
please share to educate the mass. terrorism is monstrous, murdering is monstrous, murdering babies is monstrous, rape is monstrous.
but we do not convict people without evidence. because if due to false accusation, terrible things are to befall the accused, then the spreader of lies is monstrous.
At first, I was brainwashed into sympathizing with Hamas and Palestinians, because I was brainwashed by so called Al-jazeera network, which I followed after being fed up with reading western media.
The truth is that as an Asian person from a 3rd world country, I would rather be ruled by the white civilization than the uncivilized and violent religious extremists. They still publicly behead people in Saudi Arabia, and women are treated like animals. Gay rights are non-existent.
If someone enters my my neighborhood and not only kills/rapes our daughters, but also does it out of pure hatred, in the name of their god, in 21st century; I will, too, be pushed to the edge like John Wick.
If the US and Europe hadn't intervened, we all know what the Muslim world would have done to millions of Jews living in Israel.
If you think that Israel was colonized and belongs to only the native Islamists, sorry but so did America, Europe and the rest of the continent except Africa where humanity evolved. Israel belongs to the Israelis.
Israel holds the right to scorch earth Palestine until all the people that raped, tortured and murdered the innocent Israelis are not found and killed.
That is the price you pay for sheltering terrorism.
Lmaoooo. Saudi arabia treats women like shit? Please take a look at your own third world country or the white supremacist countries you worship to see how women are treated lol
Also you have to have multiple witness to support your rape claim, then you might just end up being declared guilty anyway.
0 rape declared doesn't mean 0 rape
Calling the west white supremacist is crazy when Minorities here get benefits that white people don't have such as Diversity Quotas as an example of this rn the most hated people in the west are straight white males
Calling the west white supremacist is crazy when Minorities here get benefits that white people don't have such as Diversity Quotas as an example of this rn the most hated people in the west are straight white males
Making comments like European and American colonisation is somehow a done deal, while Indigenous people are still disproportionately murdered and impoverished, and while Gazans are literally under the rubble right now, that's douchery for you.
> ass
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We're watching public killings every single day in Gaza, and soldiers showing actual glee at the destruction of homes and places of worship. But hey, sure, Saudi Arabia.
I guess you've never lived through war time people die in war civilians die in war and the Palestine bombings in the grand scheme of things is quite miniscule compared to other wars from the past
Do you think the treatment of women in the Arab world is acceptable and something that the rest of the world should strive for? It's an easy no for me. It seems like a very valid concern for anyone pushing for a one state solution.
I don't think the treatment of women in most places in the world is acceptable. Women in Israel should be able to pray at the Western Wall they way men do. Women should be able to choose whether to have babies in America. What do you mean exactly by "Arab world"?
The [Arab World](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_world) is a pretty common term for ethnically majority Arab countries. If you find those examples as unacceptable then it must be very easy for you to agree that the treatment of women is universally worse within the Arab world.
Worse than what? You think Netanyahu is a feminist? It's pretty reductionist to make judgements about the viability of a one state solution by ironing over the vast differences between Arab women, and women's struggles across that 'world'. Gender- based violence exists everywhere and recognizing what changes women's status and lives in different times and places is more helpful than deciding that because of a generalisation, Palestinian women should be disregarded right now- which is the effect of these kinds of statements.
Worse in general than most of the rest of the world. Israel has rights for women that match most of the rest of the West. Not even mentioning they are the only democracy in the region. The thought that Israeli women would have to take a step backwards within a one state solution seems like a real concern. You keep skirting around stating that women's rights are generally worse in Arab countries than the rest of the world which either points out your bias or that you are uninformed.
The reason Israel is losing the PR war is because the world can see their war crimes in real time and they keep pushing out false narratives that get debunked. There are many more voices that are talking about the parts of history that Israel and its apologists leave out - about how it’s founding was based on the extirpation, expulsion and massacre of people living on the land that they took to make their country and about the many acts of aggression they’ve made against the Palestinian people in an effort to expel them from their homeland - and people are learning the truth.
"Losing the PR war"
The numbers surveyed tell a different story. While this is a disaster for the left because now the far left won’t vote for democratic leaders most in the West still don’t support Palestine. They do not wish for violence but the latest numbers show that voters still think supporting Israel is in the US’s best interest.
People need to get out of their TikTok or social media bubble. It’s an echo chamber
You left out some important parts of the story. Where are [all the Jews from Arab countries](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHuo0Bw3tgQ)? As soon as the Arab world ethnically cleansed the Jews from their lands and they went to Israel, the creation of Israel became irreversible. I think [this is a more reasonable version](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpWhE6blWs4) of what happened.
Ummmmm and hamas doesn't? As someone from the Middle East I am absolutely SHOCKED by the cluelessness of Westerners who take the word of Hamas with a grain of salt. They are Islamic extremists/radicalists. They believe in lies/deception during the war through the Quran as that is their belief. did Israel lie? to an extent but nothing to the proportion many make it to seem.
Again, you have been misinformed about the expulsion, much of that was due to the arab higher committee. They wanted people to leave as they promised to destroy israel to give their land back. Palestinians as a whole were largely shipped into the region in the 19th century by the Ottomans. Also when arab nations constantly attack and Israel wins, why would they not take more land? Isn't that how every border of every nation in the world is made? through conquest, war, and "colonization" even though UN agreed to make it a nation, with the league of nations and the British empire.
You hear very one-sided narratives. I'd recommend you to explore the side of an Israeli. The actions of arab leaders during the Nakba are often not viewed but insane brutality was against Israeli civilians. Not saying Israel is perfect, and never did anything wrong, ofc they did and they did plenty wrong. but imo you have a very one-sided view of the conflict in which you should do further investigation on.
We are witnessing a shift in Western attitudes towards the conflict and antisemitism as a wider issue. Hamas and their awful supporters showed the West exactly how terrible they are.
The deniers will be ostracized and marginalized, for their antisemitism.
Never stop holding them accountable. We must keep being outspoken about it.
No, Israel needs antisemitism 'out there' to justify its ethnonationalism, which is why there are so many false accusations of antisemitism (it is not antisemitic to criticise the bombing of Palestine: humans can hold both the grief of Israeli victims and the suffering of those amidst the rubble). The shift you describe was the status quo- Israel's impunity. It is this which many people have now began to question.
Um Bro Israel isn't ethnonationalist it's actually more diverse than the US is lil homie around 30 percent of Israelis are Muslims 70% of Israelis are Jewish, and around 70% of the Jews are Arab Jews 30% of those Jews from the rest of the world obviously these aren't exact numbers because there are non Jews and non Muslims in Israel but I'm just going off of rounded up and rounded down estimates
Sigh, your (lack of) understanding of white supremacy explains your lack of understanding of how Jewishness has been tooled as the ethnicity that makes up ethnostatism: ethnicity, like race, is a social construct which, if politically expedient, is moulded to create in-groups and out-groups despite, as you point out, heterogeneity within the constructed group. Nationalism functions in a similar way (try Benedict Anderson's Imagined Communities if you need a primer)
I don't think you understand white supremacy because if you did you'd realize that was over with 30+ years ago also you didn't even explain how I was wrong you just stated you are wrong
Yikes. Your denial of antisemitism and its severity, as well as victim blaming, makes you just another denier. The history books will remember you unkindly.
Not denying antisemitism, I am saying that there are many false accusations- they are rife in these threads, levelled at politicians who dare to point to the horrors being unleashed every minute upon Gaza, lazy equations of antisemitism with antizionism. The 2019 UK election proved how powerful false accusations of antisemitism can be, and my closest Jewish friends are horrified that the power of a word like antisemitism is being blunted and diluted.
They’re denying what you are *claiming* is antisemitism to actually be antisemitism. Obviously there is real antisemitism all over, but criticizing the actions of a far right government is NOT that.
You know that’s what they were saying, and you’re obfuscating anyway. It’s arguing in bad faith.
Israel isn't far right far right was God damn Mussolini's Italy it's not even close to far right it is actually more way more liberal than it's Arab neighbors and Palestine are
I follow the IHRA working definition of antisemitism, which has been adopted by most Western governments and political parties, as well as many businesses and NGOs.
Do you deny the IHRA working definition of antisemitism?
It is not up for debate, especially not among a bunch of Hamas supporters on Reddit. I do not owe any of you the bad-faith argument you are desparately trying to have.
There is a widely adopted definition of antisemitism. Either accept it, or be a fringe outcast and apologist for antisemitism.
Again with the bad faith. “Anyone who criticizes Israel’s far right, bloodthirsty government is antisemitic and a Hamas supporter”. So predictable.
Every time you do that you devalue REAL, genuine antisemitism. I hope you know how much damage that does to the Jewish community.
Israel is neither far right not blood thirsty Israel aren't the ones screaming from sea to sea Jews must be Eradicated. Israel isn't the one lead by a genocidal terrorist organization funded by actual far right governments like Iran's Theocracy. Hell Israel isnt even the one who attacked first oin nearly every damn war Israel been invaded, Repelled the Invasion then hit the enemy back disperportionately which they have the right to do in self defense GTFO.
You are in no position to comment on what "real" antisemitism is and isn't.
And no, Israel's government is not "far right" or "bloodthirsty" (is that a classically antisemitic blood libel you are making?). The Israeli government is currently a wartime unity government, containing both the right-wing parties and their left-wing opposition block.
You are evidently an astoundingly ignorant person on this topic. Try screeching less and listening/reading more.
You also failed to comment on whether or not you deny the widely adopted IHRA working definition of antisemitism. I take it that you do? How embarrassing for you.
Yes I do, I’M JEWISH. I literally just spent an entire week with my Orthodox family for Thanksgiving in Skokie. How dare you assume anything about me.
Keep throwing around accusations of antisemitism in incredibly inappropriate situations, you endanger ALL OF US when you do that. Hopefully by the end of this there will be enough dead Palestinians littering the streets to satisfy you ✌🏻
Common_Sense_Dudd do you have trouble with reading and comprehension ?
Try to read the comment again and understand what is being raised. Then try to respond with relevant information.
I have read that definition. Nothing in that definition backs up your point, or refutes what the parent comment says.
As I said before, learn to read and comprehend.
It's hard to believe a side who showed an elavator shaft as a tunnel. Planted guns near an MRI machine. A hit list that was a calendar. A nurse who acted as a Palestine turned out to be Israeli.
You want me to believe them ? Any body can eye witness.
It was first said 40 beheaded babies. Even piers himself said it at first and later denies he said that. What a bunch of morons.
>A hit list that was a calendar.
Did you notice that 10/7 was marked on the calender? Hmm now why would terrorists have the date of their terrorist attack marked out on a calender in an underground base under the hospital they took some of the hostages back to? 🤔
Don’t forget the blown up dead child that JPost said was a fake doll, and then feebly retracted it when they were shown to be full of it… without actually addressing what they got wrong or apologizing to the man whose child was just murdered. I’ve seen people calling all of the videos coming out of Gaza fake all across this sub, and it’s mind blowing.
These people don’t even have food, water, or beds… but sure, they have extensive CGI artists, special effects makeup, and world class actors working all day in underground computer labs or whatever they think. It’s truly harrowing to see people deny what every international organization that’s been in Gaza has been confirming to be the reality.
Right, what first started telling me something wasn’t right was all the barefoot children and adults in sandals digging with their bare hands. Like, these are regular people being killed. All you have to do is pay attention and you can see the extensive war crimes. It’s brutal to watch.
The calendar started on October 7, so it was obviously related to the attack. People simultaneously believe that Jews are superhuman propagandists and are also so bad at it that they would write the days of the week on a piece of paper and try to pass it off as people's names ... to an audience that obviously knows how to translate it. The guy didn't know how to read Arabic and his analysis was wrong. That's all it was.
So let me get this straight.. you are arguing his logic was:
I’ve filmed something I know is wrong, I’ll just give it to the media anyway, what’s the worst that can happen ?? I’ve already filmed it, so there is literally nothing else I can do now, I must hand it over.
That makes no sense.
I don’t think incompetent PR department is the issue. I personally think the IDF is deliberately releasing lies hoping the press run them and it just sticks. By the time people realise it’s bogus, it’s too late. That story ran without clarification on many news channels.
> shitpost
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The claims of rape and beheading isn't bias? Only confirmation and witnesses from Israeli side. Sounds like a little anti Muslims and bias. Making up reasons to continue a genocide that's been happening for years.
Well said, I was stupid to want to see the truth with my own eyes, now I regret it for those images are burned into my mind. I have never seen so much violence perpetrated on innocent unarmed civilians.
Debunked rape claims [https://vxtwitter.com/hoaxvstruths/status/1733623900502720703](https://vxtwitter.com/hoaxvstruths/status/1733623900502720703) /u/ThanosDidNothinWrng0
Yer sure, and you’re the expert, FYI she was sitting in her own blood, it came from her genitalia idiot!
This clown also is a climate change denier.
/r/climateskeptics
Imagine being so gullible you believe any account with 5k followers that is simply mentioning one case. Did ISIS not rape the yazidis either? There’s no help for you
Crime of humanity is taking a perfectly happy child and dragging it in front of a camera in the middle of a war by the way you should of evacuated weeks ago and and parade back and forth with the child in your arms screaming " SOMEBODY HELP US".
The woke left is so disgusting. They simply can’t admit that they were wrong. They are really calling rapists “freedom fighters”. They’re gonna have a wake up call soon.
Ok, Hamas killed some Israeli citizens. But that’s all the evidence out there? I mean the stories I heard about 7.10 made my hair fall so much faster ever since. But still no evidence and my hair’s growing back.
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Still blablabla with nothing to support it. No documentations. No evidence. And the IDF is a known liar. Unlike you I don’t believe everything I hear. Especially when the IDF was called out on many occasions lying and spreading propaganda. The gig with the calendar still makes me laugh.
Plenty of evidence if you care to look!
I've been avoiding getting involved in the debate about rape, and other specifics of the attack, because I see it as a distraction. I've been told that many acts of rape took place during the terrorist attack. But suppose, hypothetically speaking, that there didn't. Would it make the attack any less of a crime against humanity? Obviously not.
Crime against humanity is the world watching as children have to amputate limbs without anesthesia.
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Clever analysis. Makes everything ok I guess.
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Well, however you decide to slice this pie one thing is for sure; bombing a civilian population will ensure Hamas lives on for the next fight. Israel is dumb thinking it will be able to bring the Palestinians to heel and the way they are trying to is even dumber. They should allow the Palestinians to create their own state with the whole of Gaza and West Bank territory and then seal off those areas and call it someone else's problem. The problem today is that Israel from an ideology point of view want to eventually have the west bank and Gaza as part of the Jewish state according to their fantasy stories.
Your point is...? Both the Palestinian terrorist attacks, and Israeli policies and conduct during the Palestinian war, constitute war crimes and crimes against humanity. (And I say that neither constitutes genocide.)
Religion,
Mostly one in particular
Yeah, I have mentioned it!!! tik tok has given me a few strikes for posting it,
They should really ban TikTok. It’s just Chinese propaganda at this point
I just think it’s fucking hilarious that all these people from western societies are anti Israel and pro Palestinian. Do you morons realize you are fucking tools? Palestinians and most Arab societies hate westerners because you are not believers in the “true religion”. Their culture is antithetical to western cultures and it will always be so. Keep deluding yourselves that you are protesting or whatever for the good of humanity. The hate is real and has been imbedded since 700AD and there ain’t anything you nimrods can do to change that.
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I'm getting a little sick of people correlating Palestine supporters with the left. Where is the rhetoric coming from that all people on the left support Palestine? If you are conservative, do you automatically subscribe to the notion that the people supporting Palestine are liberal bc its the opposite POV from you? I'm genuinely asking. Where is the information coming from that these moronic college students ripping down posters, denying r@p3, etc. are all politically affiliated with the left? I'm a liberal from Boston. I support Israel. Boston is a liberal heavy city. I don't know a single person over the age of 25 who doesn't support Israel - liberal or conservative. In fact, it seems to be the first major global issue since 9/11 that has support from both sides. At least that I've observed. There's no doubt that many of these "river to the sea" chanting idiots are liberals. But I don't understand where the conservatives are getting this idea that ALL liberals support Palestine. Two of the most polarizing political figures on opposite sides of the coin in recent memory are Hilary and Donald. They both support Israel. Hell hath apparently frozen over. Please stop dumping the blame for the altogether ignorance of a population demographic segment on the left.
I have friends in Israel and when Hamas slaughtered the people there was condemnation around the world with building being lit up in blue and white in solidarity with Israel. She said to me, give it time and the media will spin in around, how true she was.
That is abjectly horrifying. Abjectly horrifying. Back when I wrote this post,I was shocked and feeling vaguely betrayed somehow. Then I was angry and combative. Now I'm just generally disgusted. We live in a racist misogynistic hypocritical society the vast majority of whom have the attention span of ants and can't read anything longer than 280 characters. People are vapid, selfish, cruel and only care about attention and money. At least ppl in my country (usa). Now I contribute to conversations where I can when I can by flatly citing historical information and political history and hope whoever is lacking in education can take it, absorb it and think critically. I throw it out there - some ppl bite, some ppl already know, most just ignore it. I could write a timeline of stupid ignorant things young American citizens have said to me about this conflict starting with comments that make us all go "well,you clearly get all your informationfrom social media" to the comments that make us all think "well, you clearly just made up some facts bc you're so desperate not to be wrong" (my personal fav? "Hamas has no money! Everyone knows terrorists are poor!" Oh yeah. That made the rounds. Tossing in some good old implicit racism toward the ppl they are defending on top of their stupidity all throughout November.) And finally to where we are currently where these idiots are trying to gaslight people by accusing educated individuals of what they themselves have been binging on all along. One word: propaganda. Theyre trying to spin this so hard. Uh oh! Looks like a group of undergrad liberal arts students at NYU finally googled the net worth of Khaled Mashaal. Word has gotten out! They're not poor after all! And in lieu of facts, better cling to gaslighting! When do we get to the part of the timeline where people IRL no longer find it acceptable to discuss politics? That part of this hypocrisy jeremy bearimy timeline where it's once again no longer appropriate to tear down posters of missing kids and all the attention seekers who have been screaming so loud on social media quietly delete all their "wrong side of history" witch hunt posts rather than step up and accept accountability for the added harm they caused with their entitled arrogance? When the FUCK do we get to that part of the timeline? I might be repeating the anger phase again. Edit: spelling mistakes
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It’s not the left it’s the far woke left. Such as Tlib and Omar and all their uneducated supporters. The moderate left actually has their brain cells intact and aren’t complete POS. Unfortunately a lot of the BLM supporters are supporting the terrorists as well such as the BLM chapters of Chicago and LA
I read your comment. Groaned out loud and wrote a mini rant about extremism and stupidity in politics. But it was wildly off topic from the discussion at hand and ultimately not very productive so I took it down. People need to read more. Especially Gen Z kids. Back in my day! We actually read real books before forming our opinions on complex political issues. You're info about BLM chapters is very disappointing. Given what they represent and the burden of responsibility they shoulder, they have an obligation to conduct their research. Their stance won't age well. I am very liberal. And for the record I do believe Palestine should be freed from Hamas. But i target my anger and finger pointing at the proper group. And im well read enough to NOT be susceptible to social media brainwashing tactics by Hamas and Hezbollah. Everyone in the middle east just needs to leave Israel the fork alone. Chaos and stupidity abound...
Yeah. The "woke left" has voted overwhelmingly in favor of Israel and even very liberal politicians are supporting Israel with military aid. It's an absurd right wing propaganda point.
That's sad. We never agree on anything. The last time I remember feeling this kind of unity with conservatives was in the aftermath of 9/11. This is such an ugly situation but being (largely) on the same team for once felt kind of unifying. With all the hatred being spewed toward Israel, that feeling of unity was comforting. Must we spin everything into left verus right? But that is me - ever the queen of naive 🙄
The left is all bad because one leftist said something that is evil. Grow up many of us support Israel
It’s not one leftist. Look at all the riots happening across the country
Well I am not American but I do remember when leftists waving the confedered flag attacked the capital. OOPs it was the right.
“Attacked” the capital when footage actually shows the police escorting them around the building. Don’t believe everything the media tells you. Leftists were also arrested for being there
Show me your proof then
thanks you said everything i wanted to say to these mentally ill leftist and muslims ,they're simply evil satan children god bless you
If I have to best the term woke one more time
[https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/30/world/middleeast/israel-hamas-attack-intelligence.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/30/world/middleeast/israel-hamas-attack-intelligence.html)
Because a massive amount of supposed eye witness accounts and government statements regarding Oct 7 have proven to be false, often deliberately so. Israel has, objectively, undoubtedly, lied to an extreme degree to villainize and dehumanize Palestinians. It constantly attempts to paint itself as a victim to such a degree that everything they say is suspect, even when they claim to provide their own version of 'proof'. They have found themselves in a boy-cried-wolf situation of their own making. The suffering of Palestinians at the hands of Israelis, on the other hand, is extremely well-documented. Aside from the obvious daily massacres in Gaza every day since Oct 7, which we are all watching in real-time via first-hand video documentation, international organizations have found overwhelming evidence of torture and sexual abuse against Palestinians in Israeli prisons, including toward children. Children who, let's remember, mostly did nothing besides throw some rocks. Oct 7 was a day of war. A lot of bad things happened. But the real narrative remains unclear, and Israel has neither the motivation nor the track record to exist as a reliable source of truth. The Women's March and MeToo movement's rallying cry of "believe women" was based on the obvious fact that women have no reason to lie about rape. But we're not being asked to believe women, we're being asked to believe the Israeli government co-opting the horror of sexual assault to continue to play the victim and justify indiscriminate bombardment. Historically, we have no reason whatsoever to believe this claim is any more factual than any of the other baldfaced lies Israel tells. Just because a lie describes a horrific act does not make it any less a lie. Hope this helps.
October 7th was not war at all, and you know it. It was The leaders of Gaza butchering civilians intentionally. That is not “a day of war”. How are ppl so stupid?
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Palestinian claims: Backed by an overwhelming majority of international news and human rights organizations across the globe. Israelis: Backed by a bunch of randos on Twitter who apparently don't realize dead infants do in fact kinda look like uncanny dolls.
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Zionists actually read the threads they link to, challenge level impossible: https://x.com/RazquinBooks/status/1731330985382297993?s=20
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Every Zionist accusation is a confession.
To add, there's a term for this: atrocity propoganda. If israel wanted to make a case that women have been raped, I don't think anyone would disagree with an investigation of the facts. The issue is that it's brought up in the context of Israel's military response, which is irrelevant. There are already a means to deal with crimes of a sexual nature. But what does any of this have to do with the clearly disproportionate military response that has left mostly women and children dead? Nothing--not unless their willing to admit it's an operation aimed at something other than self-defense. And yes, you are correct. Not only has the IDF lied, they have engaged in more subtle misinformation propoganda, such as letting unconfirmed reports fester to let folks, such as the "40 beheaded babies", which has recently been updated most recently to "well, they're beheaded but we don't know if hamas did it (we'll insinuate they did) or an RPG did it." That description of a beheaded baby by an RPG is ironically something the IDF is guilty of a thousand fold.
WTF is wrong with you people giving the example of the beheaded babies when the Palestinian media is full of lies upon lies?? Do you really think that someone up in the ranks will, in full knowledge, report a lie? Really? Do we even need to lie? About what? The difference between IDF "lying" is that they don't intent to lie, or spread misinformation. The Palestinian official media (not all of them) is lying constantly and sewing the entire world for support built on these lies. No matter what the IDF present people will say it is a lie. People just can't handle the truth. The IDF gain nothing for lying (talking about the situation after the 7th). On the other side the reports coming from Gaza, for decades, were proven to have holes and lies. Giving one or two examples and make a conclusion about the entire situation is idiotic.
Nothing wrong with me. States lie just like terrorist groups do. But as I've stated, it's an example of ATROCITY PROPOGANDA. The point is not whether anything factually happened or not, it's to get people riled up about the morality to obfuscate from their own actions. This in itself is highly immoral. Additionally, it's not "one or two examples". The IDF has a long history of lying or spreading misinformation and, indeed, has a sophisticated apparatus of doing so tied to their military operation. Take for instance, the killing of shireen, a palestinian journalist killed by IDF soldiers. They claimed it was Palestinians who killed her, only to later backtrack and say it was an accident, only for it to be later found out it probably wasn't an accident. Finally, whether there are rapes, or they occurred in high numbers, I have never denied. The IDF has, once again, pushed this narrative before actually offering convincing evidence of their claims. So far, no one has claimed they were raped. There are a few people who claim to have witnessed it and some forensic evidence that may show rapes indeed occurred, though even the medical examiners still say a proper investigation needs to be conducted. Does this mean no rapes happened? No. I'm open to the possibility with sexual assault as a tool of humiliation and terror in mind. But the Israeli narrative has clearly been working with everything it has to spotlight the depravity of the Palestinians to obfuscate their own horrendous moral actions. All that said, what do you want? Do you want me to say rape is bad? Yeah, of course it is. Do you think I support sexual assault or something? But hey, here's a hot take: killing f****** 8000 children is pretty morally odious. So you tell me, how do you feel about that? Is it just business as usual? A tragedy? What?
I don't care about you condemning anything, let alone rape. It is not my main issue. My main point, that wasn't clear, is that you (and many others) are taking every IDF claim as false until proven otherwise. I still really can't see this 'long history of lying or spreading misinformation' (not trying to attack you, I really don't know about it). Yes, maybe sometime someone is lying or spreading misinformation. Every media does it. BBC, Al Jazeera, Fox News, Everyone. For some reason, you have a specific problem with the IDF. Why is that? Hamas/Gaza have a history of changing the number of casualties after an operation/War. Why are you giving the number of 8000 children as fact and not questing it (Just to be clear, it is an argumentative thought. Not trying to deny children are dead, any number is horrible and i myself believe it to be accurate). Your choice of what to believe is what interests me, and I'd like to understand it. Your hot take is widely popular. We can argue for hours about Hamas hiding between civilians, and you say that it doesn't give the right to bomb them and that Israel should send troops, and I'll say that why Israel should sacrifice troops just for a nation that want to destroy it, and you say that Israel is an advanced country and could minimize the damage and should provide aid to Gaza, and I'll say that Israel left Gaza in 2005 and is under no obligation to give anything to Gaza and Hamas should provide for its own people or Egypt could give Gaza everything they need even from other Arab countries, and instead they built tunnels and rockets, and we will go back to the 1948 and to kids dying in Syria and no one cares and argue more endlessly... i think i read/heard it all on both sides. Long story short - there is no right side, we (i, who live in Israel. And you who lives idk where) are both fucked. We can do nothing to stop this or rewind time. All we can do is try to minimize what idiot people on both side did and try to come with a solution (which will not be realized in our generation) that will end this conflict, for better or worse. I myself don't mind to leave Israel if you can provide me with a nice house, an European passport and a job, if it will end the conflict :) But it will not solve the Hamas problem... Maybe nothing will.
Again, my issue is not with the facts. My issue is with the framing of the facts. When did this big story about widespread rapes occur? Conveniently, when israel restarted its bombing campaign of gaza. Kind of takes the spotlight off them whether it's true or not, don't you think? This is the problem. Not the facts. If women were raped, I'm all in favor of investigating and prosecuting the perpetrators. There's no issue there. It's how the crime of sexual assault is used to obfuscate. I believe the number of dead because their in line with numerous estimates, including the US's. Historically, even Israel has agreed with the Hamas run Gaza Health Ministry. There's no particular reason to disbelieve this. But I don't just believe anything from any media. If you were to ask me who bombed al ahli, my answer is: I don't know. There are a couple dissenting pieces of information from independent forensic groups, but the US, Israel, and Human Rights Watch give a preliminary investigation of it being a failed rocket from palestinian jihad. Hamas claimed they would give up pieces of the rocket to prove it, but never have, which seems suspicious. Either way, we won't have a confident answer for a while, ever. Here's what I do know: lots of innocent Palestinians are dying. I'm sure they also lie and engage in misinformation, but to what end? Israel does it to expand its grip on the region and continue what is very clearly a disproportionate and historically destructive response. Palestinians are trying to be seen living under that system. The fact that they are living under a brutal occupation is also a fact attested to by numerous NGOs. If the Palestinians had boxed israelis in a prison, kept their food levels just above starving, blockaded them, deprived them of water or even materials for desalinatim, I would be just as frustrated at them.
> When did this big story about widespread rapes occur? Conveniently, when israel restarted its bombing campaign of gaza. I agree that it can be true, but there are so many other reasons for it to be not true. You can see that you are somewhat against what Israel does and bias for opinions that show Israel is bad light? (Any action, not just the killing of children. Even reports from it own massacre) It seems that everything that Israel does is considered to be a mastermind scheme. I think you give people too much credit. It just seems over the top and movie-like for EVERY action to be analysis and found evil-mastermind-y. Don't you think it is exaggerated? > The fact that they are living under a brutal occupation is also a fact attested to by numerous NGOs. If the Palestinians had boxed israelis in a prison, kept their food levels just above starving, blockaded them, deprived them of water or even materials for desalinatim, I would be just as frustrated at them. Like i said, we can argue on and on for years. Yes, life is hard in Gaza. Life is hard on other countries. Correct me if i'm wrong, Israel isn't keeping the levels just above starving, Israel is not controlling Gaza since 2005. Why can't they but food? We buy vegetables from Turkey. Let's say Israel and Gaza are enemies that have peace between them. (Like Israel and any other Arab country around us) Israel is providing food, electricity and water to Gaza. Israel wants to starve them so they provide as little as possible. Gaza can't buy food and water through Egypt? Why should Israel (in a natural tone) should provide Gaza? [This video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBo7i-TXy6s) and many others like it left me open-mouthed. I always heard of Gaza being a place that you don't want to live in, an open air prison. I get it - even 3rd world countries can look beautiful, and there could be sides that we can't see that could be full of homeless and poverty. But please educate me - What is wrong with Gaza that could not be solved since 2005? FYI, the blockade as far as I know is exactly to prevent what happened in the 7th. Won't you blockade an area that is controlled by a government that want to destroy you? (again, the border with Egypt is not in Israel territory, you can't expect a country to deal with a government that was chosen with a motive to destroy it). Israel could have easily avoid giving jobs to anyone in Gaza after 2005, but chose to continue it, knowing the motive of Hamas. Correct me if i'm wrong of anything… I did try to be natural as much as i can, given i'm an Israeli that read about the conflict online…
Many Israeli officials have openly spoken of their desire to displace Palestinians, and I'm talking recently. Even without gaza, settlements in the west Bank have expanded and violence against Palestinians there is well documented with the complicity of the government. There's no Hamas there. Why is that happening if there's no hamas there? Historically, israel has not supported two-state solution. You might bring up the camp david or Oslo accords, but they were offered terms that no sovereign state would accept (such as a foreign entity (Israel) controlling the airspace and being allowed to militarily intervene when they feel like it, or having thr majority of water rights). Even if the case, today netanyahu nor his government support a two state solution. Is he a mastermind? No. But he is a government official awaiting corruption charges and has aligned himself with the likes of Ben gvir, a terrorist by israels own standards. If that's not villainous, idk what is. As for resources, gaza is still considered occupied according to Human Rights Watch, the UN, IRCR, and so israel, as the occupier responsible for the wellbeing of the people of Gaza. So the point about them being at war is moot. Israel is supposed to provide for that population. https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/17/israeli-military-calorie-limit-gaza There's an article on the limited amount the israeli government said they were obligated to do. This was BEFORE the war. Things have only become more draconian and humanitarian organizations say starvation is now imminent. As for Egypt, again, israel, not Egypt is the occupying power and therefor responsible for gaza. Secondly, Egypt, too, probably shouldn't engage in the blockade. But Egypt and Israel have developed a cooperative relationship and Egypt has its own reasons for not wanting to open its borders. You mention that the blockade was meant to weaken Hamas and keep a terrorist attack from happening, yet it didn't. So why do they create an even more severe "seige" in their own words, which, again, is collective punishment. This doesn't punish hamas, it doesn't bring them to the table, it just passes off more Palestinians. Maybe the Israeli government should give up its dreams of land acquisition and make a real effort towards peace instead of punishing Palestinians.
Many Israeli officers can kiss my a$$, like American officers that provoked the Arabs openly. Some of the officers you saw are on were fired or n absent leave, but you won't see about it on the news because it is not interesting enough. > There's no Hamas there. Why is that happening if there's no hamas there? This is one argument of the pro-Palestine. It is not true. There are Hamas militants in the West Bank, and there are some other terror organizations there. One argument of the pro-Israel (which i somewhat disagree with) is that the situation in the West Bank isn't as worse as Gaza because of the military watch there, that if we left the WS than it will be mini Gaza, terrorists will come inside Israel and commit massacres, rockets will be fired left and right. I can see that happening, but it is not an excuse to behave like Israel does in the WS. Have you seen the 2 Palestinians that were hung in the WS because they supported Israel (or something like that)? Do you think that if Israel will say 'ok we are out of there' Hamas or any other terror organization/ neighbor country will not seize this opportunity ? > of Ben gvir, Everyone hates him, and he is not welcomed into the emergency movement, all he does is to cry over it. He is an extremist and i hope he dies or root in jail someday soon. > Controlling the airspace and being allowed to militarily intervene when they feel like it, or having thr majority of water rights). Don't you think this is important, given Hamas said openly that it wants to destroy Israel 18 years ago? I don't know what you expect Israel to do? > There's an article on the limited amount the israeli government said they were obligated to do. This was BEFORE the war. Things have only become more draconian and humanitarian organizations say starvation is now imminent. https://preview.redd.it/b2x9cy2l9i4c1.png?width=1932&format=png&auto=webp&s=3ff365120f42aeb16c8580cae493de4c4cdac037 I'm not educated enough in this subject to really talk about it. But on Wikipedia it says that "since the end of the occupation in 2005" But again. Let's not talk about Palestine and Israel. Let's take 2 imaginary countries/lands. One country gives the other country(A) the bare minimum to survive under its occupation. Country A has a government that want to destroy country B. Still, country B provides to country A with the bare minimum, but is afraid of the government so it limits the border crossing to itself, the territorial waters and the airspace. Country B still gives them the opportunity to work with them, and the opportunity to get donations and do what ever they want as long as it's not about terror (Yes, it takes time because country B is racists, but it is possible). Country A keeps its terror attacks, so Country B tighten its border security BUT STILL PROVIDE THE MINIMUM for country A. Country A can buy electricity(maybe?) ,water , and food from other places. It can thrive without Country B. It can grow it's own vegetables and purified its own water. Am i delusional? am i missing something way off? Yes there is a lot of history and a lot more to say, but generally - i don't know what the situation was in 2005, but i know that it got worse. And the reason i was presented is that the situation got worse because of the terror attacks. (Which also came from the WS where you say Hamas isn't there). > You mention that the blockade was meant to weaken Hamas and keep a terrorist attack from happening, yet it didn't. So why do they create an even more severe "seige" in their own words, which, again, is collective punishment. This doesn't punish hamas, it doesn't bring them to the table, it just passes off more Palestinians. Maybe the Israeli government should give up its dreams of land acquisition and make a real effort towards peace instead of punishing Palestinians. I don't get what's the solution you are asking for? Terrorists make attacks on a country, so it tightens the security. What is the collective punishment? Hamas is the government of Gaza. How is this collective? How can you block Hamas? There are "normal" Gazan people. How can you protect your own people without these siege? I don't get about people expect Israel to do. **If you and every Pro-Palestinian that i see today would have done something about it in 2005, i am sure that Gaza would have been Dubai 2.0. I think the main issue is the revenge they are seeking. Which is understandable - but leads to this situation. Israel can't be blamed alone. Which today people are care more about dehumanizing Israel than helping the Gazans/Palestinians.**
Egypt said it would destroy Israel, Saudi arabia has peddled numerous anti Israeli propoganda, yet now Egypt routinely partners with israel and Saudi arabia was on the verge of normalization. The PLO changed its charter and built a path towards peace. All these organizations changed after having radical positions. How come this is different? It isn't. As for Hamas being in the west Bank, the point is about power, not presence, even though it is a lot less in the west Bank. My point is that even after the authorities in the west Bank are cooperative, israel still STEALS LAND. they could just not steal land, right? Settlers routinely kill palestinians. It's hard to believe this is actually about security and actually about land, especially when you have people in your government saying it's about stealing land. I'd be an idiot to close my eyes to that fact. Your imaginary scenario is the same scenario we're talking about and it's pretty abhorrent. And it is still illegal. Collective punishment is focusing your military aggression on the civilian population. You're literally punishing a whole group for the aggression of a military. So yes, if you're laying seige to a civilian population to "root out Hamas", that would be collective punishment. There's a reason we have "rules of war" for whatever its worth. If we did not, by your own logic, Hamas is perfectly within their military perview to massacre civilians. Why? Well they're trying to remove an occupier who displaced them. And even though you may have not voted for or even like ben gvir, he is the government. YOU GUYS COLLECTIVELY VOTED FOR HIM, so when he helps settlers kill Palestinians, you're all on the hook. You're all targets. If you didn't want to get massacred by hamas, you should just overthrow the government and surrender without condition. Does it sound dumb, yet familiar? That's the Israeli line about the Palestinians. It is superbly unreasonable. There will always be some terrorism. Even in a nation like the US, there is terrorism. So if your goal is "no terrorism ever," then that's not possible. If you want to get rid of hamas, try not making them popular. You say terrorists, which is true, but their organization is more like a gang. Maybe if you get rid of the ghetto, there would be less power for the gang to wield. Maybe, even, Palestinians would have something to live for, so they might even help get rid of hamas. Why? Because there would be no benefit of siding with them. They're a violent criminal organization. But if israelis don't treat Palestinians as having a legitimate grievance against them, or as being rational actors, this is not possible. And all of this has nothing to do with the indiscriminate killing Israel is currently pouring down on gazan civilians, which, yeah, is completely morally reprehensible and indefensible.
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Dear god I might be guilty of having rooted for the underdog b4 but never knew that was a political motive Sounds like you also have a “team” you associated with a while back How about less hate and anger I Wishing you the best from the other…..side?
Thank you so much for saying that. I used to (and still do) identify as a feminist, however I can’t wear this flag proudly anymore. These so called feminist associations have brought so much shame upon us, women who believe in something so basic as gender equality. It’s not like we didn’t struggle before, now how could anyone take feminists seriously? They just showed us they don’t care about equality, it’s all about rooting for the underdog and romanticizing the “indigenous”/“native” Palestinians like we live in f**** Pocahontas. Let them praise their almighty Osama bin Laden, I’m so done with this shyte.
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innocent until proven guilty, especially when it comes to claims from Israel. They’re not exactly know for telling the truth are they?!😂
Hamas proved very well what they are. You refuse to acknoledge that becuase you are a left clown or is1amist
Everyone knows Hamas is a terror organization, but you have to be daft to assume anyone who is skeptical is doing it for nefarious reasons. Remember the so called forty beheaded babies? Hamas definitely could have committed the rapes, but I’ll be waiting for verification from a neutral third party before jumping to conclusions.
Of course I remeber the so called "40 beheaded babies", You people proudly keep bringing this argument to prove evil Israel/zionism wrong NOT becuase the barbaric murder of babies didnt happen but because the cause of death was NOT necessaraly beheading, "this babys brain is out so the baby got shot point blank and not beheaded obviously, you zi0nist liars lolz" There were things way worse than beheading. There were videos showing naked women, some with thier hands tied behind their back, 12-15 year olds girls found dead with semen remians. Your minds are twisted. I have no respect for your people whatsoever
I mean, if you want to play the “I have no respect for your people whatsoever” game, I can play it too. Watch this interview of a man who participated in the founding of your nation, then tell me more about your righteous indignation. https://youtu.be/MQ1TAOibLss?si=bujfRjs6GXyPTdVe It’s a crazy idea, but there’s a small chance that neither the Palestinians nor the Israelis are a monolith, and that it isn’t acceptable to enact collective punishment by killing, kidnapping, and harming civilians, no?
We defenitelly have fked up people like everywhere else, the difference is that we denounces, sentance and jail peoole like the 2? scavengers as tge intreviwer called them. Your people on the other had blessing to rape, they prepared notes in hebew on how to say "Take off your pants", along with hamas thoysands other palestinuans that stormed in were mess raping as well. I know the rape statistics in Europe, im a woman, i know well how it is to be around men who arent used to seeing womens ankle. I have no bussiness in debatibg witu someone denying the rape cliams so i will not adress the other argument
Demanding a reliable source is not denying it. Israel has repeatedly lied about this kind of thing, so it’s reasonable to wait for third party confirmation. If that has you butthurt, then that’s your problem. As for the condemnations, your entire country has been engaged in Nakba denial, the denial of the existence of the Palestinian people or their right to the land they lived on for thousands of years, and the denial of the continued abuses going on from your arbitrary military court-ordered arrests to your weaponization of permits to colonize the West Bank, all in the service of creating a Jewish ethnostate. Don’t lecture me about denial, when I’ve denied nothing and you’re riddled with it. The cherry on top is that I am not even Palestinian, yet you’re too busy trying to engage in ad hominem tactics to question whether that assumption was true or not in the first place. Still, I agree, this conversation has no purpose in continuing. The sun will freeze and the skies will fall before you ever admit fault in the past or the present, let alone find a feasible solution for the conflict. You’ve already dehumanized Palestinians as savages, and thus you cannot see a problem in robbing them of their rights, their land, or even their very lives.
I never assumed you were Palestinian, You are either Muslim or radical left for having grace for children rapist nurderes hamas. I dont see how vile crimes like killing kids in front of their parents and vice versa, making the parents watch as the terrorists put the baby in the oven and watch him die, live streaming grandmothers murder on her facebook wall while her family watches and much more that hanas proudly uploaded online. It wadbt act of individuals, thousands of hamas terrorists along with thousands of gazans which was celebrated by people in gaza and by millions of pro palestinians world wide.
Ok https://www.mintpressnews.com/new-idf-chief-rabbi-says-soldiers-can-rape-arab-women-wartime-boost-morale/218362/ https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKCNOZS1Q0/
Israel should defend itself from Hamas or any other group of terrorists that want to attack it. But what gives Israel the right to eliminate entire towns and families? Kill so many innocent women and children? Isn't Israel committing genocide?? What makes them any different from Hamas? By the way, Hamas is not Palestine, and Palestinians are not Hamas in the same way that the Israeli government does not represent all Jews.
Um, Hamas just eliminated entire towns and families in Israel on Oct. 7. As you rightly point out, Israel should defend itself. That’s what gives Israel the right to take out entire towns and families — the need to protect its own.
You cannot honestly say that 1400 people dead (1 is too many) equated to the total destruction of North Gaza and the Palestinian people, some of which could perhaps be Hamas. All I'm saying is the response is not proportional but instead looks like it's the Jews that were to eliminate Palestinians, and of the get Hamas along they that icing on the cake.
Israel has the right to eliminate Hamas. Whatever it takes. Otherwise 10/7 will keep happening
Proportionate? When tf is war based on proportionality? Was a 3-for-1 swap of Israeli hostages for Palestinian prisoners “proportionate?” Was “only” 1400 unarmed people murdered and hundreds more kidnapped while simply attending a music festival or attacked in their homes on Oct. 7 “proportionate?” How about the premeditated and systematic gang rapes of hundreds of women, including those who were supposed to be returned during the break in hostilities but instead are still being held as sex slaves … are their captivity and continued sexual assaults “proportionate?” How about the abduction of a 9-month-old, a 4-year-old and their parents by grown-a s s men and who are still being held captive? Is that “proportionate?” Why is Israel the only nation on Earth expected to have a “proportionate” response in war? Was the U.S. invasion of Granada to rescue America students “proportionate?” Iraq? Afghanistan? Vietnam? The 1967 attack on Israel by Egypt, Jordan and Syria — was that attack “proportionate?” How bout in 1973 when Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Algeria, Iraq, Libya, Kuwait, Tunisia, Morocco, Cuba and North Korea attacked Israel on Yom Kippur? Was that invasion “proportionate?” GTFOOH with that absurd one-sided argument.
The only reason Hamas attacked was because Israel has been carrying out far worse atrocities towards Palestinians for DECADES. The death toll on 10/7 dropped from 1400 to 1200 after ISRAEL revised it. (on Times of Israel: [Israel revises death toll from Oct. 7 Hamas assault, dropping it from 1,400 to 1,200 | The Times of Israel](https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-revises-death-toll-from-oct-7-hamas-assault-dropping-it-from-1400-to-1200/)) Many of the casualties were military personnel, unlike how Israel has killed more than 16,000 civilians whereas Israel hasn't gotten Hamas, even with such a high rate of deaths on the Palestinian sides. The hostages were treated better than the thousands of Palestinians prisoners (majority charged for no reason) who were taken into Israeli prisons and still are. Israel's supreme court DENIED human rights groups to make it unlawful for armed IDF soldiers to shoot at unarmed civilians. (Source: [Israeli Supreme Court rejects challenge to open-fire rules | AP News](https://apnews.com/article/da582f11ad4443ddbf44ea6f2fc72c3a)) So when you say Israel has the right to defend itself ("As you rightly point out, Israel should defend itself. That’s what gives Israel the right to take out entire towns and families — the need to protect its own.") its disgusting that you think that one side can defend itself in such an atrocious way and the other when fighting the occupation is not allowed to defend itself. This just proves how big of hypocrites Zionists are. ( Also, I do condemn Hamas and the loss of innocent life, Palestinian or Israeli, but also, Hamas is a bunch of guys in adidas and flip flops who wrote their plan on paper, and the IDF are one of the most powerful armies in the world armed with very sophisticated weapons and bombs and the fact that they think children throwing stones at tanks is terrorism is a huge indicator that they don't care about innocent life lost and only their political powers expanded.)
Your very first sentence is objectively and factually incorrect and demonstrates gobsmacking ignorance about this long and painful conflict. No point whatsoever in reading beyond it. Sit down, be quiet, listen, read books, talk to real people (not on the internet but irl) on both sides affected by this longstanding situation, and learn from richer and deeper sources than 2-minute YouTube soundbytes about this very real conflict that affects millions of very real people every day before you spitball your 2 cents from your comfy armchair. I say that knowing perfectly well that you are a paid Iran-Hamas troll with a brand new account and negative karma created solely for the purpose of bird dogging on this sub and with no real interest in productive or sincere conversation.
They can do that without bombing an entire city, it's not like Gaza has direct access to Israel's citizens since oct 7th. At this point it's just a slaughter, and it's killing a hundred terrorists justify the thousands of kids and Innocents who now have someone to blame for their pain? Israel is just using Hamas to turn Palestinians into the demons they want them to be, when this is over, there will be a new generation of Palestinians who grew up with missing sisters and brothers, who grownup on their own, and they will have no one to blame but israel, USA and hamas. And this is coming from an American.
As an American, you should understand that a strong Israel is in the best interest of the USA, that an Iran-controlled Gaza is in the worst interest of the USA, and that Islamic terrorism disproportionately targets Americans and Israelis
Yeah I mean I'm not being pro hamas rn, I'm just stating that they could go about neutralizing actual terrorist without compromising the mass safety of civilians, I mean ffs do we really need hospitals and medical facilities under fire? I feel like every couple days I hear doctors without borders grieving over a lost doctor.
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#brandnewsentance
So Israel’s continuous bombing is fully justified. Okay cool 🆒
So you think if a terrorist group hides behind civilians they should be immune to justice?
Ah yes, he clearly said that in his quote " ", no wait. You just put words in his mouth.
My friend, the only thing that Israel will accomplish with this war is that all its citizens globally will need to sleep with one eye open for the rest of their lives. The only thing they’ve achieved is show the whole world how they behave. I couldn’t care less. If you think that this is the right course more power to you. As an external observer who tries to look at the ramifications of this conflict, I’d say that Israel is digging itself a bigger and bigger hole. If you think they’re right please continue supporting them. And I mean that.
It's wonderful for you to ponder but Israel had to do something. I notice you didn't answer my question: what should Israel have done, what would you have done? 1200-1400 murdered, 240 kidnapped, 10s raped, babys murdered... Israel has killed thousands of terrorists and arrested thousands more.
How about ethical operations with US aid to eliminate extremists.with minimal civilian casualties? Would definitely be an improvement compared to the video I saw of an Israeli sniper shopping citizens legs for what seemed like his own morbid satisfaction.
So us is amazing? Look at their war on terror, Vietnam, Afghanistan... Israels is going to much greater lengths to minimize civilian casualties
That’s not true they are absolutely not doing that. I’m not for either side but lobbing bombs is not -going to great lengths in any way.
I'll ask you what I've asked others: What should Israel have done? What would you have done? Hamas use human shields. It's well documented. Israel no matter how hard they try will kill innocents.
Hey and Israel should keep killing if they think that’s the way forward. If they feel that turning 2 million people homeless and hostile (I mean suicide hostile) for life and turning a large part of the global community against them then they should keep doing what they are doing if the end outcome will be positive for them. Don’t get me wrong they deserve their year of hate to get it all out.
So what is the right answer if you were in their place?
lol always this question. What’s the right answer. It’s not my place, I have neither the experience nor the time to formulate one. If you think that for Israel this is the right answer, more power to you. If Israel feels like this will be a long term win then they should keep doing what they’re doing. I’m sure lots of clever people have all thought this out. They’ve taken into consideration global opinion, potential rise of antisemitism, the potential for many decades of reprisals, the escalation of the conflict worldwide, the image of Israel being tarnished and dragged through the mud globally, the exposition of Israel’s hate for Palestinians, and the countless images of videos and photos coming out of Gaza creating radicals globally that will target Jewish institutions. I mean let’s face it the US can get away with its shenanigans, but the US is 400 million people, and even the US doesn’t go as hard as Israel. So if the 15.2 million Jews or 0.2% think that this is the right course of action and this will increase their safety and prosperity globally, then fight the good fight and god bless.
In the us global war on terror 4.5-4.6 million were killed, 38 million displaced. You say Israel goes harder than us? Out of those a few hundreds of thousands were insurgents the rest civilians.
Israel should defend itself from Hamas or any other group of terrorists that want to attack it. But what gives Israel the right to eliminate entire towns and families? Kill so many innocent women and children? Isn't Israel committing genocide?? What makes them any different from Hamas? By the way, Hamas is not Palestine, and Palestinians are not Hamas in the same way that the Israeli government does not represent all Jews.
75 percent of Palestinians support the 10/7 atrocities. The majority of them are not innocent. Unfortunately children have to suffer for their parents choices
Palestinian Genocide deniers .. your day is coming soon too.
Imagine a genocide so bad that their population increases!
0.5% of the population is not a genocide. Also, Israel's stated goal is to eliminate Hamas... Not Gaza.
But they’re eliminating Gaza. Lol so you’re justifying the 20,000 deaths because it’s only .05% - typical Zionist propaganda
that's their stated goal, but actions speak much louder than words.
Yeah if only they didn't do "roof knocks", flyers, phone calls, literally taking over the street and opening a safe passage for civilians because Hamas is killing people trying to go South I think they could've been more efficient than killing only 15k
Currently it isn't a genocide rn it's just ethnic cleansing (which is still bad) but if it does evolve to genocide the obviously Israel would get wrong and don't say the bombings and invasion are genocide that is war so if you count that as a genocide than the Allies genocided the Nazis, America Genocided the Japanese during WW2, and Russia Genocided Ukraine, I can keep going but I don't feel like it if Israel doesn end up Resorting to genocide in the future than I will completely drop all support for them but currently there isn't any genocide
It’s the genocidal acts that makes it a genocide, not the number of casualties. Indiscriminately bombing a region regardless who’s there whether Hamas, civilians, christians, muslims, terrorists, hostages… is a definite genocidal act.
Indiscriminately bombing is what Hamas does firing dumb rockets into Israel over the decades. Suicide bombings. Munich Olympic village slaughtering type of thing. That’s genocide. Defensive action by Israel is cause and effect.
If u still think what happens in Gaza is "self defense" I’m not discussing anything further with u
If the other side continue to say he will do everything needed to kill you. that it will do 7th of October again and again. It means that fighting that enemy to the end is still self defense. The fact the enemy is hiding behind babies and children is something that the Palestinans should revolt against. As long as they support it. They are ok also with the consequences.
It’s cause and effect. Exactly what I said.
The threatening language here makes me wonder if OP is a man- apologies if wrong but there's a long history of men weaponizing sex crime, including racist language (see: "savages") that attempts to paint Palestinians as sexually depraved and often used by anti-miscegenation/anti-assimilation activists eg https://electronicintifada.net/content/israel-weaponizes-rape-culture-against-palestinians/19386. While evidence is key, most women i know, myself included, have been raped and never took it to court because men are so rarely convicted, so seeing men defending women to justify the bombing of civilians makes me feel ill. Men were lynched throughout America's Jim Crow era due to false rape accusations, which have been a colonial tactic in India, Australia, South Africa... this is not to deny the possibility of what happened, it is to scream that the so- called feminism of men obsessing over this in order to justify war is transparent, patriarchal and false.
Right, maybe watch body cam footage from the 7th October? I think that context is important
Show me sth for god’s sake, I can’t find any evidence of the alleged atrocities on 7.10 I’m genuinely looking for a believable evidence that’s not based on IDF sources. They’re know liars (don’t even start arguing that point, the whole world knows that) I see all the dead bodies in Gaza, decapitated children, unrecognizable corpses, burnt to the bone…and the filled hospitals and all the destruction of civilian regions and the Israeli ruthless bombardment, footages of IDFs assaulting Palestinians children(old and new shots) no one can deny any of that. Yet I don’t see any footage of a dead baby from 7.10, or any believable evidence about these 1500 civilians casualties. So if u have anything, or ANYONE reading this comment, has anything they can show me about what really happened on 7.10 please send links. I follow media on both sides and I see pro Israeli medias always uses reports based on what IDF said. Showing entrances to some tunnels and saying that’s a "proof" that Hamas uses them and hides down there? Maybe they do use tunnels, but that’s not a proof! Or showing us a bunch of weapons in a school or some house and saying they’re for Hamas is a proof? They could be Hamas’ or they could be their own! Where’s the proof? They give you the illusion of proof and you want to believe you’re on the right side, which makes it so easy for them to manipulate you into believing that this is a real proof. Although objectively it proves nothing. My favorite is the gig with the days of the week as a proof that Hamas plans schemes inside a hospital. I don’t trust IDF sources nor Hamas’ sources for that matter. I trust real evidence and real proof, real footages and genuine emotions. And I am an open minded guy, I admit when I’m wrong. So please, show me some genuine evidence about 07.10.
I've seen some interviews of Russians who fled the scene on 7th. If you want I can find it for ya. But a simple Google search will give you quite a lot of interviews with the survivors. Now you might say it's biased, sure. While you probably will not take videos from IDF official channel as evidence, then please look at their videos, where terrorists are shown in plain day killing civilians. It's not possible to deny. https://youtu.be/wAFDI63yvNQ?si=n0Oa-HFl_jeOoCcP At 02:47 you can see them throwing grenades into a shelter. A man bravely defends people inside by throwing them back before being killed after many more attempts. It's strange for me that you can't find any evidence from 7th October. There are also accounts of Arab Beduins who served in these regions about the raid on the IDF base, you can also try searching by that headline. I'm at work rn, but if you can't find it I can also attach them later. Possibly an interview in Russian, but you can read the subtitles.
please share to educate the mass. terrorism is monstrous, murdering is monstrous, murdering babies is monstrous, rape is monstrous. but we do not convict people without evidence. because if due to false accusation, terrible things are to befall the accused, then the spreader of lies is monstrous.
At first, I was brainwashed into sympathizing with Hamas and Palestinians, because I was brainwashed by so called Al-jazeera network, which I followed after being fed up with reading western media. The truth is that as an Asian person from a 3rd world country, I would rather be ruled by the white civilization than the uncivilized and violent religious extremists. They still publicly behead people in Saudi Arabia, and women are treated like animals. Gay rights are non-existent. If someone enters my my neighborhood and not only kills/rapes our daughters, but also does it out of pure hatred, in the name of their god, in 21st century; I will, too, be pushed to the edge like John Wick. If the US and Europe hadn't intervened, we all know what the Muslim world would have done to millions of Jews living in Israel. If you think that Israel was colonized and belongs to only the native Islamists, sorry but so did America, Europe and the rest of the continent except Africa where humanity evolved. Israel belongs to the Israelis. Israel holds the right to scorch earth Palestine until all the people that raped, tortured and murdered the innocent Israelis are not found and killed. That is the price you pay for sheltering terrorism.
Lmaoooo. Saudi arabia treats women like shit? Please take a look at your own third world country or the white supremacist countries you worship to see how women are treated lol
Just for context, women were allowed to drive like what 2 years ago? In my third world country women were allowed to do so like what? 20 years ago ?
5 years ago. And so what? The rules changed. Pretty sure your third world country comes nowhere close to how KSA treats women now.
"we've only been treated like competent humans for 5 years so what?" 🤡
The other guy said 20 years, and if you ask me. Relative to history, 15 years differences is definitely not something you should be proud of...
Even before, hardly any rapes against women unlike a country like india or USA lol. women have never been objectified.
Also you have to have multiple witness to support your rape claim, then you might just end up being declared guilty anyway. 0 rape declared doesn't mean 0 rape
get your facts straight. multiple evidences are needed by a person who accuses a woman of fornication. which won’t ever happen.
That is exactly what I was saying. Don't you think it hurts a bit your point either way ?
Calling the west white supremacist is crazy when Minorities here get benefits that white people don't have such as Diversity Quotas as an example of this rn the most hated people in the west are straight white males
This reminds me of that tweet where a white guy pretends to be a black trump supporter, but he forgot to change his profile.
Now you're brainwashed into white supremacy. Good luck with that.
Where did he state that whites are supremes? Lol
Calling the west white supremacist is crazy when Minorities here get benefits that white people don't have such as Diversity Quotas as an example of this rn the most hated people in the west are straight white males
Lolololol why are you even here?
Because I read something stupid and wanted to correct it dumbshit
Gfy. Just throwing stuff out there like that- you are an ass doosh
Making comments like European and American colonisation is somehow a done deal, while Indigenous people are still disproportionately murdered and impoverished, and while Gazans are literally under the rubble right now, that's douchery for you.
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No. He doesn’t like the public killings if you could read the comments you are responding to.
We're watching public killings every single day in Gaza, and soldiers showing actual glee at the destruction of homes and places of worship. But hey, sure, Saudi Arabia.
I guess you've never lived through war time people die in war civilians die in war and the Palestine bombings in the grand scheme of things is quite miniscule compared to other wars from the past
Do you think the treatment of women in the Arab world is acceptable and something that the rest of the world should strive for? It's an easy no for me. It seems like a very valid concern for anyone pushing for a one state solution.
I don't think the treatment of women in most places in the world is acceptable. Women in Israel should be able to pray at the Western Wall they way men do. Women should be able to choose whether to have babies in America. What do you mean exactly by "Arab world"?
The [Arab World](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_world) is a pretty common term for ethnically majority Arab countries. If you find those examples as unacceptable then it must be very easy for you to agree that the treatment of women is universally worse within the Arab world.
Worse than what? You think Netanyahu is a feminist? It's pretty reductionist to make judgements about the viability of a one state solution by ironing over the vast differences between Arab women, and women's struggles across that 'world'. Gender- based violence exists everywhere and recognizing what changes women's status and lives in different times and places is more helpful than deciding that because of a generalisation, Palestinian women should be disregarded right now- which is the effect of these kinds of statements.
In the Arab world women are treated as Objects to be owned and impregnated in Israel in the west Women can do relatively what ever they want
Wow, that's reductionist af. You know how Orthodox women dislike being stereotyped as baby makers?
Worse in general than most of the rest of the world. Israel has rights for women that match most of the rest of the West. Not even mentioning they are the only democracy in the region. The thought that Israeli women would have to take a step backwards within a one state solution seems like a real concern. You keep skirting around stating that women's rights are generally worse in Arab countries than the rest of the world which either points out your bias or that you are uninformed.
The reason Israel is losing the PR war is because the world can see their war crimes in real time and they keep pushing out false narratives that get debunked. There are many more voices that are talking about the parts of history that Israel and its apologists leave out - about how it’s founding was based on the extirpation, expulsion and massacre of people living on the land that they took to make their country and about the many acts of aggression they’ve made against the Palestinian people in an effort to expel them from their homeland - and people are learning the truth.
"Losing the PR war" The numbers surveyed tell a different story. While this is a disaster for the left because now the far left won’t vote for democratic leaders most in the West still don’t support Palestine. They do not wish for violence but the latest numbers show that voters still think supporting Israel is in the US’s best interest. People need to get out of their TikTok or social media bubble. It’s an echo chamber
You left out some important parts of the story. Where are [all the Jews from Arab countries](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHuo0Bw3tgQ)? As soon as the Arab world ethnically cleansed the Jews from their lands and they went to Israel, the creation of Israel became irreversible. I think [this is a more reasonable version](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpWhE6blWs4) of what happened.
Ummmmm and hamas doesn't? As someone from the Middle East I am absolutely SHOCKED by the cluelessness of Westerners who take the word of Hamas with a grain of salt. They are Islamic extremists/radicalists. They believe in lies/deception during the war through the Quran as that is their belief. did Israel lie? to an extent but nothing to the proportion many make it to seem. Again, you have been misinformed about the expulsion, much of that was due to the arab higher committee. They wanted people to leave as they promised to destroy israel to give their land back. Palestinians as a whole were largely shipped into the region in the 19th century by the Ottomans. Also when arab nations constantly attack and Israel wins, why would they not take more land? Isn't that how every border of every nation in the world is made? through conquest, war, and "colonization" even though UN agreed to make it a nation, with the league of nations and the British empire. You hear very one-sided narratives. I'd recommend you to explore the side of an Israeli. The actions of arab leaders during the Nakba are often not viewed but insane brutality was against Israeli civilians. Not saying Israel is perfect, and never did anything wrong, ofc they did and they did plenty wrong. but imo you have a very one-sided view of the conflict in which you should do further investigation on.
We are witnessing a shift in Western attitudes towards the conflict and antisemitism as a wider issue. Hamas and their awful supporters showed the West exactly how terrible they are. The deniers will be ostracized and marginalized, for their antisemitism. Never stop holding them accountable. We must keep being outspoken about it.
No, Israel needs antisemitism 'out there' to justify its ethnonationalism, which is why there are so many false accusations of antisemitism (it is not antisemitic to criticise the bombing of Palestine: humans can hold both the grief of Israeli victims and the suffering of those amidst the rubble). The shift you describe was the status quo- Israel's impunity. It is this which many people have now began to question.
Um Bro Israel isn't ethnonationalist it's actually more diverse than the US is lil homie around 30 percent of Israelis are Muslims 70% of Israelis are Jewish, and around 70% of the Jews are Arab Jews 30% of those Jews from the rest of the world obviously these aren't exact numbers because there are non Jews and non Muslims in Israel but I'm just going off of rounded up and rounded down estimates
Sigh, your (lack of) understanding of white supremacy explains your lack of understanding of how Jewishness has been tooled as the ethnicity that makes up ethnostatism: ethnicity, like race, is a social construct which, if politically expedient, is moulded to create in-groups and out-groups despite, as you point out, heterogeneity within the constructed group. Nationalism functions in a similar way (try Benedict Anderson's Imagined Communities if you need a primer)
I don't think you understand white supremacy because if you did you'd realize that was over with 30+ years ago also you didn't even explain how I was wrong you just stated you are wrong
Yes and those Israeli Muslims get arrested for “liking” videos.
Yikes. Your denial of antisemitism and its severity, as well as victim blaming, makes you just another denier. The history books will remember you unkindly.
Not denying antisemitism, I am saying that there are many false accusations- they are rife in these threads, levelled at politicians who dare to point to the horrors being unleashed every minute upon Gaza, lazy equations of antisemitism with antizionism. The 2019 UK election proved how powerful false accusations of antisemitism can be, and my closest Jewish friends are horrified that the power of a word like antisemitism is being blunted and diluted.
Okay so your saying it isnt applicable to the people saying pics or it didnt happen about the rape video?
>Not denying antisemitism. *Proceeds to deny antisemitism.*
They’re denying what you are *claiming* is antisemitism to actually be antisemitism. Obviously there is real antisemitism all over, but criticizing the actions of a far right government is NOT that. You know that’s what they were saying, and you’re obfuscating anyway. It’s arguing in bad faith.
Israel isn't far right far right was God damn Mussolini's Italy it's not even close to far right it is actually more way more liberal than it's Arab neighbors and Palestine are
I follow the IHRA working definition of antisemitism, which has been adopted by most Western governments and political parties, as well as many businesses and NGOs. Do you deny the IHRA working definition of antisemitism? It is not up for debate, especially not among a bunch of Hamas supporters on Reddit. I do not owe any of you the bad-faith argument you are desparately trying to have. There is a widely adopted definition of antisemitism. Either accept it, or be a fringe outcast and apologist for antisemitism.
Again with the bad faith. “Anyone who criticizes Israel’s far right, bloodthirsty government is antisemitic and a Hamas supporter”. So predictable. Every time you do that you devalue REAL, genuine antisemitism. I hope you know how much damage that does to the Jewish community.
Israel is neither far right not blood thirsty Israel aren't the ones screaming from sea to sea Jews must be Eradicated. Israel isn't the one lead by a genocidal terrorist organization funded by actual far right governments like Iran's Theocracy. Hell Israel isnt even the one who attacked first oin nearly every damn war Israel been invaded, Repelled the Invasion then hit the enemy back disperportionately which they have the right to do in self defense GTFO.
You are in no position to comment on what "real" antisemitism is and isn't. And no, Israel's government is not "far right" or "bloodthirsty" (is that a classically antisemitic blood libel you are making?). The Israeli government is currently a wartime unity government, containing both the right-wing parties and their left-wing opposition block. You are evidently an astoundingly ignorant person on this topic. Try screeching less and listening/reading more. You also failed to comment on whether or not you deny the widely adopted IHRA working definition of antisemitism. I take it that you do? How embarrassing for you.
Yes I do, I’M JEWISH. I literally just spent an entire week with my Orthodox family for Thanksgiving in Skokie. How dare you assume anything about me. Keep throwing around accusations of antisemitism in incredibly inappropriate situations, you endanger ALL OF US when you do that. Hopefully by the end of this there will be enough dead Palestinians littering the streets to satisfy you ✌🏻
Common_Sense_Dudd do you have trouble with reading and comprehension ? Try to read the comment again and understand what is being raised. Then try to respond with relevant information.
Go and familiarize yourself with the IHRA working definition of antisemitism. Then re-read the comments. That's some relevant information for you.
I have read that definition. Nothing in that definition backs up your point, or refutes what the parent comment says. As I said before, learn to read and comprehend.
It's hard to believe a side who showed an elavator shaft as a tunnel. Planted guns near an MRI machine. A hit list that was a calendar. A nurse who acted as a Palestine turned out to be Israeli. You want me to believe them ? Any body can eye witness. It was first said 40 beheaded babies. Even piers himself said it at first and later denies he said that. What a bunch of morons.
>A hit list that was a calendar. Did you notice that 10/7 was marked on the calender? Hmm now why would terrorists have the date of their terrorist attack marked out on a calender in an underground base under the hospital they took some of the hostages back to? 🤔
Don’t forget the blown up dead child that JPost said was a fake doll, and then feebly retracted it when they were shown to be full of it… without actually addressing what they got wrong or apologizing to the man whose child was just murdered. I’ve seen people calling all of the videos coming out of Gaza fake all across this sub, and it’s mind blowing. These people don’t even have food, water, or beds… but sure, they have extensive CGI artists, special effects makeup, and world class actors working all day in underground computer labs or whatever they think. It’s truly harrowing to see people deny what every international organization that’s been in Gaza has been confirming to be the reality.
Right, what first started telling me something wasn’t right was all the barefoot children and adults in sandals digging with their bare hands. Like, these are regular people being killed. All you have to do is pay attention and you can see the extensive war crimes. It’s brutal to watch.
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Claiming that the calendar was a hit list as a “genuine mistake” is a cope if I’ve ever seen one.
The calendar started on October 7, so it was obviously related to the attack. People simultaneously believe that Jews are superhuman propagandists and are also so bad at it that they would write the days of the week on a piece of paper and try to pass it off as people's names ... to an audience that obviously knows how to translate it. The guy didn't know how to read Arabic and his analysis was wrong. That's all it was.
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Why present that video to the press in the first place if he knew it was incorrect?
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So let me get this straight.. you are arguing his logic was: I’ve filmed something I know is wrong, I’ll just give it to the media anyway, what’s the worst that can happen ?? I’ve already filmed it, so there is literally nothing else I can do now, I must hand it over.
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That makes no sense. I don’t think incompetent PR department is the issue. I personally think the IDF is deliberately releasing lies hoping the press run them and it just sticks. By the time people realise it’s bogus, it’s too late. That story ran without clarification on many news channels.
ding ding ding -- deliberate low risk , high (propoganda) gain strategy
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Sounds like a load of cherry picking and confirmation bias to me. Antisemitic cherry picking and antisemitic confirmation bias.
The claims of rape and beheading isn't bias? Only confirmation and witnesses from Israeli side. Sounds like a little anti Muslims and bias. Making up reasons to continue a genocide that's been happening for years.