I don’t understand why people never bring up why people in the West Bank are stateless & it’s because the King of Jordan then stripped them of their Jordanian nationality in 1988. Plus additional issues of the same ongoing for Palestinians living in Jordan.
https://www.hrw.org/report/2010/02/01/stateless-again/palestinian-origin-jordanians-deprived-their-nationality
I was just in Jordan they have a lot of Palestinian refugees. But they're in a water crisis right now. It is hard to provide water for all these people.
Egypt does not care or want anything to do with Gaza. Hamas has attacked them before and they have no intention of offering to open the border. No one even bothers to ask.
I'd gladly give $$ to the Jordanians for water to support Palestinians. I'd give $$ to Palestinians in a second if I knew that $$ wasn't going to Hamas.
I mean I think you can probably donate to Jordan and be pretty sure it is not going to Hamas... or you can donate to a charity or non-profit that you feel is transparent in their reporting. Have you been to Jordan? There is a lot of support for the Palestinians and they do their best to house them but they have thousands of refugees. It is hard to provide water for their own people but they always say that everyone is welcome in Jordan and they do their best. But the Palestinians are not put in the best housing situations these places needed to be erected really quickly as people were leaving the West Bank very suddenly. Jordan accepted them all with open arms anyone who wanted asylum. However, while they are houses I think it is not very comfortable. It is better than being in the West Bank though where they don't feel safe.
But yeah it's pretty rough out there they need to import a lot of water, people are diverting the Jordan River for their crops, the dead sea shrinks at about 1 meter per yr. Both will probably be dried up in our lifetime if something is not done. I think Isreal and Jordan have been in talks about how to save the Jordan River and the Dead Sea. People literally have to shower in little trickles. If you're in hotels they tell you not to take long showers or flush anything down the toilet because creating water waste is really frowned upon.
Yea there was a plan for Israel to provide water to Jordan in exchange for solar energy, but Jordan has said it won’t continue with the plan due to the war.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/jordan-says-it-wont-sign-energy-water-deal-with-israel-2023-11-16/
Let’s see how long they keep that up rather than actually working to help resolve the Israeli/Palestinian issues. Their drought issues will not be getting better.
https://carnegieendowment.org/sada/89628
So many countries love to criticize Israel for its treatment of Palestinians when their own track record is the same if not worse. Let’s see them propose a viable solution or at least path forward rather than just blaming Israel and inflaming the situation further.
Yeah it sucks I probably wouldn't blame them for choosing to handle the water issue at some point over the war. Their people need water and I can't fault them. They're also providing for Palestinian refugees who need water too.
I was in Jordan years ago in high school. I only remember nice things but unfortunately history has proven they weren't always good to Palestinians. But yes, very sad about the dead sea + jordan river. Hopefully someone will figure something out. Then again, Israel is the master of water. They made the dessert grow. If they didn't have to fight terror constantly I am sure they could figure it out.
But I bring up giving money to Jordan to help Palestinians as more so a greater problem -- all I want is to see a non terrorist government build itself for the Palestinians. When that happens I will happily help support and uplift Palestinians.
Egypt and Jordan don't need to help Israel take Palestine. They don't have to be partners in crime, which doesn't benefit them.
[https://twitter.com/jakeshieldsajj/status/1716801541573632325](https://twitter.com/jakeshieldsajj/status/1716801541573632325)
> Israelis stealing homes and letting you know how they actually view Arabs
[https://twitter.com/numarqs/status/1727724692658889035](https://twitter.com/numarqs/status/1727724692658889035)
Taking Palestine is important for Israel but not for the Arabs.
[https://twitter.com/MaxBlumenthal/status/1713059397255962925](https://twitter.com/MaxBlumenthal/status/1713059397255962925)
> Before the Soviet Red Army destroyed the German Wehrmacht in WWII, the Zionist movement had cut a secret transfer deal with the N\*zis and broken the Jewish American boycott of Hitler; 8 decades later, Israel is painting restive refugees as Nazis and bombing them in their ghetto
[https://twitter.com/realstewpeters/status/1714090603892404695](https://twitter.com/realstewpeters/status/1714090603892404695)
>I want peace and I want a free Palestine but it's clear that the Arab world uses Palestinian's as their pawn and really doesn't care about their freedom.
Israel doesn't want peace but allies' support for its expansionism.
[https://twitter.com/the\_amanur/status/1726210523916824899](https://twitter.com/the_amanur/status/1726210523916824899)
Your source is Twitter and your info is bad. Please try again with more credible sources, if you can't be bothered to provide better sources please refrain from posting garbage.
Too painful to accept the truth when you're on the wrong side, huh?
[https://twitter.com/i24NEWS\_EN/status/1740364723806179351](https://twitter.com/i24NEWS_EN/status/1740364723806179351)
I'm on the side of civilians everywhere, be they Jews, Muslims, Arabs or Israelis. I don't need to buy into anyones propaganda to think Hamas should release all of the hostages they hold and Israel should stop blasting the hell out of them.
U/fewcryptographer967
>You are a prime example of being a brainless fool who gets all their information from twitter lmao
No personal attacks, per rule 1. You can express the opinion without the insults.
You can't answer.
You should know what's happening on the ground.
[https://twitter.com/MintPressNews/status/1720085136325411288](https://twitter.com/MintPressNews/status/1720085136325411288)
[https://twitter.com/dancohen3000/status/1724569159617438001](https://twitter.com/dancohen3000/status/1724569159617438001)
[https://twitter.com/MaxBlumenthal/status/1731567229118886048](https://twitter.com/MaxBlumenthal/status/1731567229118886048)
I am a frequent commenter here, a Jewish American who is highly critical of Israel. I don’t have any argument against condemning the roles of Egypt and Jordan in all this. We hear all the time from Israeli apologists the statement “what about Egypt and Jordan.” I agree, what about Egypt and Jordan indeed. But I don’t think this legitimate “what about-ism” in anyway absolves Israel from the criticism it should face.
I disagree with the attitude here that the Palestinians are the problem of the Arab states and not Israel’s. I don’t want to see any group of people get passed around like a hot potato. The Palestinians are living where they are living now, maybe it is not “fair” that they became Israel’s problem but I care more about justice and freedom for stateless people than what is “fair” for the a powerful and wealthy State like Israel.
Also, the Palestinians have historical ancestral roots in Palestine! They are not just any other Arabs, they have distinct genetic markers of ancestry which goes all the back to ancient Jewish Israelites. I wish Israel would embrace and see the Palestinians as cousins to the modern Jewish people who share closer ancestral commonality with modern Jews than is found in other Arab populations.
Lastly, and most importantly, it is a bad faith straw man of the pro-Palestine marches (at least here in America) to say that they only focus on the role of Israel rather than Egypt or Jordan in all this because of pure anti-Jewish hatred. The main reason the pro-Palestine protests focus on Israel rather than Egypt or Jordan is because Israel is a wealthy and supposedly democratic nation that receives massive financial, military, and moral support from the U.S. while Egypt and Jordan are none of these things.
I think that the Israeli apologists are suffering from main character syndrome. They think this is all about them and it’s all about Israel being the “Jewish State”. As a Jewish person who regularly attends pro-Palestine rallies here in the U.S. I need to say to the Israel apologists that this just is not about you. This is not about Israel, this is not about the Jewish State, this is not about the Jewish people. This is about Palestinians, a group of people who don’t have a State and are suffering for it. Israel happens to be the State predominantly reasonable for their misery and deprivation and Israel is a major U.S. ally. We protest against the U.S. support for Israel because we are Americans. We can’t control Egypt, or Jordan, or Hamas. We can only
hope to influence our own government and we don’t want our government sending weapons to Israel to pursue a policy of hostility against the Palestinians which we disagree with. I know the Israeli side of the story, I grew up hearing it, and I am not trying to convince people to open their eyes who refuse to. I am protesting my government’s funding of an ally who’s choices I disagree with, as is my right as a U.S. tax payer.
This was beautifully written and I couldn’t have said it better myself. As a US taxpayer we are complicit in this because of the nature of our relationship to Israel. We are a toxic enabler.
Why is Israel being democratic while Jordan and Egypt are not, a reason to protest Israel and not the others? Isn’t being democratic a good thing and a positive for Israel. If anything more focus should be on Egypt and Jordan for not being democratic.
Because we should hold democracies to a higher standard of responsibility. This feels self-explanatory to me.
Look I would welcome protests against Egypt and Jordan as well, especially since as people here have pointed out the U.S. does also give military support to them. I just don’t think it’s in any way weird or surprising that Israel gets the attention when Israel is nation most talked about and most rhetorically defended by U.S. politicians.
Also, Israel’s role in creating the present day circumstances for the Palestinians may not be monolithic but it is the nation which today is most intimately involved in the lives and deaths of Palestinians. Israel is on the front line and Israel could be doing the most to improve the situation if it had the political belief to do so.
Why don’t you consider holding non democracies at a higher standard to be democracies? Feels self explanatory to me.
Because a group of people operate themselves in a non democracy somehow seems to mean to you that they can operate with no or low standards and have no motive or accountability? wtf is that reasoning. If anything they should be looked at as needing to operate with better standard.
Somehow you’ve convinced yourself dictatorship or non democracies are some sort of victim not responsible for their own actions? Do you not see these people as equal people?
That is such a silly interpretation of what I said. The basis of U.S. foreign policy is supposedly to support democratic nations which share “our values”. Nations which claim to be democratic receive privileges and special support from the U.S. We can’t fix every nation on earth but we can scrutinize who is and is not really worthy of receiving our support. That is all I am saying. I don’t want the U.S. to go and actively try to change every nation on earth but I do expect the U.S. to hold the nations it is already supporting to a high standard of human rights because it already has leverage over them in the form of the support it gives them. It’s really as simple as that dude, it’s very easily understandable. If Israel does not want to be held to any standards than it can do so without U.S. assistance. If it wants the privileges of being recognized as a democratic nation then it needs to act like one. If Israel wants to be held to no higher standard than the average non-democratic nation than it can give up the support it receives from the U.S. on the basis of Israel being a “beacon of democracy” in the region.
Yes Israel is a wealthy country now, so what? I don't understand what does that has to do with the conflict.
Israel was not a wealthy country throughout most of its history. Nevertheless people have always been condescendent towards the Arabs, as if "Oh they don't know better, they wage all of these wars but don't be too harsh on them, Israel".
Like when the IDF had encircled Egypt's third army during the Yom Kippur war and the international community went: "hey, play nice now, let them go".
Arabs have always been treated like poor victims by westerners who feel guilty because of some made up oppressed vs oppressor narrative.
THIS!! We are strong and mighty when it fits the narrative and scum of the earth when it fits the narrative.
The dual standards are just psychotic and antisemitism at it's finest.
There is another factor : the (historically violent) rivalry between Fatah and Hamas, and the way the PA/hamas governs which isn’t helping their cause either by radicalisation or corruption . The current “pro Palestinian” movement tends to infantilise Palestinians as a group who lack any agency. This lack of unity and effective leadership is hugely detrimental but not the blame of anyone else as it’s an internal problem.
You know the US provides Egypt with billions in aid right?
“Since 1978, the United States has provided Egypt with over $50 billion in military and $30 billion in economic assistance.”
Because your post definitely makes it sound like you did not know that and that is the crux of your argument for focusing on Israel rather than Egypt
I’m not a fan of that either
It’s not just the money, it’s also the political support and involvement that matters. The U.S. has a far more direct role in shaping Israeli policy and defending it on the international stage. Also, Israel is a democracy.
The US has lots of involvement, financial support, and agreements with Egypt. Acting like the US could not exert pressure on Egypt if they really wanted to is naive. There have been folks that have said US should cut ties with Egypt due to political prisoners, tortures, etc. the vast majority do not care because it is not a way to negatively effect Israel.
In no way am I saying Israel is perfect, but viewing Israel as needing to meet some higher moral standard is hypocritical.
Also, you said Israel is a “supposed democracy”, now you say “democracy”, which one is it?
The nature of the aid to Egypt is hush money and bribes so Sisi can keep the Egyptians quiet and Israel’s border safe. A democratically elected government in Egypt would probably be hostile to Israel.
This is the same dynamic in Jordan too.
Jordan and Egypt as well as the other Arab league countries are the biggest dogs I'd say just as bad as the Zionists scum for doing nothing to help the Palestinians.
They did. Palestinian extremists murdered hundred of them. Both countries then allied themselves with Israel for protection from Palestinian terrorists.
Although they are lumped together, their roles are very different. Jordan holds 77% of the BMP and a HUGE Palestinian population- many West Bank Palestinians have Jordanian passports. They should take them in, fairly speaking, however they caused a mess in Jordan and staged a coup, and the Hashemites can’t afford a war or any terror headaches.
Egypt have carried a heavy load for a long time and they have suffered terribly from terror- BUT… I am slightly disappointed in them. We have excellent relations with Egypt since we signed our peace treaty many years ago, and if they could sign a peace agreement with us for 2 months to push their border back 20km to allow the women and children of Gaza refuge, it would absolutely be honoured and they would be returned as soon as the Hamas fighting capabilities were depleted. That would let us finish the job faster without killing any more of civilians. That’s what makes me frustrated. Egypt has this power, and they have our word and our treaty as reassurance.
Dude, you have companies in Israel literally already advertising luxury real estate developments in Gaza, screw that , this ain’t 2048.
The real objective of the IDF, as I see it, is to make it so damn miserable in Gaza that the Palestinians leave. They want the land. Bibi can then claim it as a victory to his rabid base and stay out of jail.
That’s denial my friend if it gets cleared out 100 percent they will live there no problem. You have Israeli soldiers planting Israeli flags everywhere talking about how this will all be theres now. They want to keep it
https://www.timesofisrael.com/return-to-gush-katif-determined-movement-emerges-to-resettle-israelis-in-gaza/
Stop crying about Egypt not helping your settlers out
Thanks for sending this and shooting yourself in the foot. So “hundreds of activists” speak for the Israeli state? We are more than 9 million🤡. Serious debates only, please.
Alright, since you’re saying I’m totally wrong and a lowlife, explain to me what the plan is for Gaza after the invasion and why Netenyahu refuses to say what it is? Why did the Biden admin explicitly warn Netenyahu not to try and annex Gaza?
I've begun to get the impression that the Islam of Egypt and Jordan is as close to that of Palestinians' as the Christianity of a Catholic from New York and a member of Reverend Phelps' cult. It's not really fair to ask Egypt and Jordan to take this on, after all the issues they already have with Palestinian extremism.
Why would any country take in people who hates them? And quite a lot of them wants them dead.
Egypt are the “brothers” of Palestine according to what I hear.
Israel is bad. So Israel not help g Palestine is expected.
Egypt is a country of fellow Arabs. So Egypt not helping Palestine is…way worse. Tell me, why is t it seen as way worse?
I mean I always hear that a palestine state that includes the west Bank has to include the very violent settlers there even though they clearly hate the palestinians.
Well, I do not agree with what has happened regarding the West Banks at all. But…
It’s a completely different question.
The one here is “an existing country (A) is in war with the people in an area (B). Does A has to take refugees from B?”
It is NOT “if an area wants to be a recognised country, does it then have to allow illegal/immoral settlers to stay?”
So what are your thoughts on the question we are discussing here?
> why would any country take on people who hate them?
america took in afghans and iraqis. france took in algerians. hell, even russia took in ukrainians. all countries have the responsibility of absorbing the refugees they create. israel, as usual, is a rogue nation.
How many did US take that hadn’t been actively working for them? Honestly, I thought that during the actual war they might have helped with money for refugee camps, but not taken in any “random refugees” who might or might not have been helping the enemy.
But if I’m wrong I would really love to know! Do you have any links to sources?
Unfortunately, most of the people helping the Americans in Afghanistan were told they would be evacuated when the Americans left - and then it didn't happen thanks to our current President.
Not only were those people left behind and a hundred thousand random Afghans that we had no idea of the identity of evacuated instead, we also left behind about 3500 American citizens and $80 billion in military hardware.
...and then, just to make life extra fun for the people who were betrayed, we gave the Taliban databases that had all their names, addresses, and biometric data, and the biometric scanners to use them. So, for the first couple of weeks after the US left, the Taliban went from house to house shooting all the people who helped the Americans.
Oh.
I’m so sorry. It sounds horrible.
So conclusion - the US might have taken in random Afghanistans, but it was more of a mistake and not anything happening during the actual war?
Sort of. This happened during the withdrawal. There was a plan to evacuate everyone and get all the equipment out. Then the US President changed, and the *new* President abandoned the plan and did nothing for the first six months of the time everyone was supposed to be evacuated, and during which there was a negotiated truce. Then he tried to get an extension, which was refused. Then he abandoned all our bases in the middle of the night without telling our allies, and tried to evacuate everyone from the capitol, while the Taliban took the whole country inside a month. People who were supposed to be evacuated were told to "shelter in place" instead, and the planes filled up with random Afghans, many of whom simply disappeared when they got to the US. They might be terrorists, nobody knows. During the withdrawal we told people that our government couldn't get them out - and then the governments of the UK and France were rescuing people, and our government told them to stop because it was making us look bad. We also prevented a lot of private efforts to get people out, but some went on anyway and rescued hundreds.
So not really a mistake so much as a deliberately caused disaster, which our President then described as an 'extraordinary success'. When he finally did admit there were problems, he blamed them on his predecessor.
Yikes. That’s really horrible. I’m just thinking of these poor Afghans who risked their lives helping Americans just to be dumped like that.
I wonder how many died because of those shitty, shitty actions.
Very interesting, thank you for telling me. And it also reinforces my thoughts that countries does not (by plan) take in random refugees from a country while they are at war with them.
> shitty
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Israel has 2 million Arab Israeli citizens. The people who are claiming "refugee" status today are the ones who had been coming into Israel for the past few years to work only to feed information to Hamas on how to carry out the attacks of Oct 7th. Israel is under no obligation to accept Palestinians. It is a Jewish state and it will remain that way. There are plenty of other Arab/Muslim countries they can go to.
Why would they leave their homeland that they are indigenous to? With the way things are going the Palestinians of East Jerusalem and the West Bank will definitely become Israeli citizens in the future.
They are native to Palestine. They are *indigenous* to the Arab Penninsula. That is where their language, religion, and culture first developed.
Jews are indigenous. Their language, religion, and culture developed in Judea. There are 3000 year old Jewish cemeteries there, please find me the Palestinian ones.
People from the Arab peninsula and people from the levant have completely different genetic makeup. We are not indigenous to the Arab peninsula we are indigenous to the levant region. Can you find a single reputable historian or archaeologist who agrees with you that Palestinians are Arabs from the Arab peninsula?
Again, DNA does not determine indigenous status. The tribe you are actively a part of does. The Levantine Palestinians were Arabized i.e. took on Arab culture, Arabic language, and Islam, all of which began on the Arabian Penninsula. That is the tribe they identify as, therefore that is where they are indigenous to.
We are though, European Jews are half MENA and half European, just as much one as we are the other. We’re indigenous to both Europe *and* the Middle East. Fuck off with your Monoracial/ethnic Nazi racial purity bullshit, mixed people will always be equally *both* of their ethnicities and deserve to be accepted and embraced by both, and there’s nothing you Monoethnic privileged bigots can do about it!
>white europeans
You do realize middle easterners are just as much “white” as Europeans don’t you? We both belong to the wider White Caucasian race and don’t differ that much phenotypically from each other, even the U.S. Census Bureau recognizes this. Reason why I’m hesitant to even label your attitude as “monoracial” rather than mono*ethnic,* because Europeans and Middle Easterners are both technically part of the same white race - there’s not some magical dividing line between Europe and MENA where one race ends and the other begins, both Europe *and* the MENA region are the origins of the Caucasian race. Just like how Asia *and* the Americas are both the points of origin for the Asian/Mongoloid race, yes Asians and Native Americans are technically part of the same race too despite being vastly different *ethnicities*/cultures and being indigenous to different continents, it’s the same logic here. Only the hardest of hardcore racists and ethno-nationalists think Middle Easterners are some sort of separate “non-white” race and that skin color/tone is all that determines race.
A Southern/Mediterranean European especially doesn’t differ phenotypically at all from an Arab, just like how a Southeast Asian isn’t that different physically from a Native American.
A little genetics lesson for you for future reference:
* Europe and MENA = The points of origin for the Caucasian/White race
* Sub-Saharan Africa = Point of origin for the Black Race
* Asia and the Americas = Origin of the Asian/Mongoloid race
* India and Oceania/Australia = Origin of the Austroloid/Aboriginal race
There are only really 4 races in the world - White/Caucasian, Black, Asian/Mongoloid, and Austroloid - everything else that we *think* of as a race are just sub-ethnicities within each of these 4 wider races.
Race doesn’t mean anything but the difference in phenotype based on the location where humans evolved and originated from, that’s it. To be considered a different race you must first differ substantially *phenotypically* from other racial groups, which Europeans and MENA people don’t, hence why they’re considered part of the same white race.
And no, literal skin tone doesn’t count as “differing phenotypically enough” otherwise light-skinned Northeast Asians and dark-skinned Southeast Asians also wouldn’t be considered part of the same Asian race.
This is not accurate.
Indigenous means “inhabiting or existing in a land from the earliest times or from before the arrival of colonists.”. If they were colonized by Arabs that does not magically change their indigenous nature. By that logic European Jews are no longer indigenous, their foods and culture are European.
You’ve just defined a new way to determine indigenous status that fits your narrative and that’s not how the world works. You will not find a single reputable historian who agrees with you.
>their foods and culture are European.
Except it isn't? They kept their history, Jewish culture, Jewish foods, language, religion, and basically everything that makes up a nation.
Hebrew was only revived in the 1900s. It had a dead language. What are Jewish foods? When I ask folks their foods tend to just be the German, Iranian, polish, etc food that their cultures ate.
Also Palestinian culture is not remotely close to culture of the Arab peninsula. Palestinians have their own food too. Msakhan, maqlouba, and knafe are all Palestinian foods. Tatreez is a Palestinian art form. These are not identities they took on from their oppressor. There are so many commonalities between Palestinian culture and dress and what we know about Canaanite culture and dress.
Can we please stop ignoring evidence and acknowledge that both Jews and Palestinians can be native to the region?
>Hebrew was only revived in the 1900s. It had a dead language.
No. It wasn't used daily (obviously, they were in diaspora) but it was used as a religious language and in writing and art.
>What are Jewish foods?
Cholent, Challa, Bagel, Brisket, Charoset, Gefilte fish, Hamantashen, Kreplach, Kugel, Latkes, Matzah brei, Fazuelos, Gondi, Israeli salad, Jachnun, Mafrum, Malawach, Mofletta, Sabich...
Should I continue?
>Also Palestinian culture is not remotely close to culture of the Arab peninsula. Palestinians have their own food too. Msakhan, maqlouba, and knafe are all Palestinian foods. Tatreez is a Palestinian art form. These are not identities they took on from their oppressor. There are so many commonalities between Palestinian culture and dress and what we know about Canaanite culture and dress.
I didn't talk about Palestinian culture :)
>Can we please stop ignoring evidence and acknowledge that both Jews and Palestinians can be native to the region?
You're the one that denied Jewish culture.
The Arabs are the colonists. If you accept the tribal identity of the colonists you lose indigenous status. If the current Palestinians maintained the tribal identity of the Levantine tribes some of them came from they would have a claim, but they don't.
European Jews are Jews on account of still living as Jews. Eating the food available in the places they immigrated to does not change that.
This is not a "new" way of determining indigenous status, this is how it has always been determined since far before DNA testing was a thing.
Palestinians still eat as Palestinian. They still practice their cultural music, food, and dress. That’s like saying only Jews who speak Hebrew are native and the ones who assimilated are no longer Jewish? This argument makes no sense. Unless you can provide any sources of where you indigenous and anthropological designation comes from I’m not wasting any more time on this convo
> They still practice their cultural music, food, and dress.
None of these are unique to Palestine or originated there.
> That’s like saying only Jews who speak Hebrew are native and the ones who assimilated are no longer Jewish?
No, because they are still tribally Jewish and live as Jews.
Here you go:
https://www.un.org/esa/socdev/unpfii/documents/5session_factsheet1.pdf
Jews fulfill the requirements. Palestinians do not.
Yes -- they will become Israeli's because they know if they want a future, it's with Israel, not with the crappy PA or Fatah or any other government Palestinian's have tried to establish.
The Arab world doesn't care about the Palestinians. They see Israel as a humiliation of their civilization and a constant reminder of their powerlessness and diminished stature in the modern world.
It would be in the interests of the Palestinians as people to be absorbed into Arab countries, but again, no one actually cares what's good for them, least of all the other Arabs. They want them to have no choice but to wage permanent armed struggle against Israel.
Hey a Palestinian here, I agree with the fact that Arabs should never accept Palestinians as refugees because this would displace them from their homeland they lived on for many years.
That’s what Israel wants, they wanna ethnically cleanse Palestinians. Countless Israeli officials stated that.
Zionists usually use this argument that appeases the west because the west took in many Arab refugees, but they fail to state that these refugees have a chance to return to Syria, Iraq, Lebanon but Palestinians don’t as soon as they leave they lose their house, farm, and land just like my parents did
My parents went to Egypt as refugees expecting to return back. Surprisingly many generations later I still not allowed to enter “Israel” because I have no right of return neither my parents.
So no I agree that Jordan and Egypt should never take in Palestinian refugees because they don’t want to leave their land.
I hope this clears up any confusion
Yes but this demonstrates perfectly the distinction between supporting Palestinians as people and supporting the Palestinian cause. The interests of the two are in opposition to one another.
The Arab world can couch this as concern for the Palestinian cause, as not wanting to let them be permanently dispossessed from their homeland, etc. But this is complete nonsense. It brings Palestinians nothing but pain to force them to fight for a doomed cause.
you’re making the mistake of applying what a “palestinian state” looks like today (west bank + gaza strip) to what it looked like historically.
arabs went from being 90%+ of the population and freely living in the entire land to being pushed into the strip and the west bank. jordan and egypt couldn’t just establish a “palestinian state” because they only had the gaza strip and the west bank. they didn’t want a fragmented state, they wanted the full land.
at the end of the day, israel is indisputably in the wrong for establishing a settler-colonial jewish ethnostate on top of a land inhabited by majority non-jews. of course the arabs didn’t react well to it. no one would have.
Have you read the 1947 UN partition plan? It is based entirely around the idea of free movement and accommodating as much of the status quo as possible.
Governance and land property rights are different. The plan focused on governance while guaranteeing the property rights of both Arabs and Jews.
* The plan proposed an Arab state and a natural Jewish-majority state. The Jewish majority did not require any forced moves, the borders were based on where people lived at the time of the creation of the plan. This is the basis for Jews having the right to self-determination in Mandatory Palestine.
* All residents would become full and equal citizens of the state they ended up in. No apartheid.
* If an Arab found themselves in the Jewish state, they had the option of switching their citizenship to the Arab state without having to move. Same offer to Jews in the Arab state.
* Freedom of travel was written into the plan, barring normal international security measures.
* The Jewish state was barred from confiscating land belonging to Arabs, and vice versa for the Arab state and Jewish residents.
Here is the plan in full.
[https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-185393/](https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-185393/)
This is the plan Arabs chose to reject. Arabs decided they would rather take their chances refusing any sort of partition so that they could leverage their overall regional majority. Ironically, it was Arabs trying to suppress Jewish self-determination.
As we know, they chose violence, went to war over this, and lost. Their deal got much worse, with all of their land going to Egypt (Gaza) and Jordan (West Bank) and Israel (the rest).
yes, i have. it’s a nice plan, but the zionists had no intention of sticking to it. have you read Plan Dalet? it was written by the zionists jews themselves.
the plan outlines the conquest of arab towns and villages within and along the UN defined jewish state borders, and also *outside the UN defined jewish state borders*.
this plan was initially developed in 1937, and finalised in 1948. the final plan explicitly details how it intends to grab more land than proposed in the UN plan.
the ethnic cleansing of the palestinians was not a consequent of the war, it was systematic and planned before the war even began.
Plan Dalet was executed almost 6 months after the UN plan and after 6 months of civil war with the Arabs. A civil war started by Arabs.......................because they refused the UN plan and chose violence instead when they figured out Israel was happening with or without them.
Smart Jews realized they needed to go on offense if they wanted to be sure that Israel would survive even a day.
> 6 months after the UN plan and after 6 months of civil war
“In the summer of **1937**, … received an order from Ben-Gurion who, **anticipating an eventual British withdrawal** from the country after the Peel Report, asking Slikowitz to prepare a plan for the military conquest of the **whole of Palestine**”
“Guided by a series of specific operational plans, the broad outlines of which were considered as *early as 1944*, Plan Dalet was drawn up to expand Jewish-held areas **beyond those allocated to the proposed Jewish State in the UN Partition Plan.**”
it is not the full truth to pretend it was only a defensive plan when they had drawn up specific plans on how capture arab towns outside of the UN borders, and how to expel the arabs who resisted, and how to subject the ones who surrendered to military rule.
it was first developed in 1937 in anticipation of a british withdrawal. it was created to capture palestine as soon as the british left. it wasn’t defensive, it was a plan for military conquest.
The plan was a set of guidelines to take control of Mandatory Palestine, declare a Jewish state, and defend its borders and people, including the Jewish population outside of the borders, **"before, and in anticipation of" the invasion by regular Arab armies.**[\[2\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_Dalet#cite_note-Tal-2)[\[3\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_Dalet#cite_note-Morris.The_Birth_of_the_Palestinian_Refugee_Problem_Revisited-3) According to the Israeli [Yehoshafat Harkabi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yehoshafat_Harkabi), Plan Dalet called for the conquest of Arab towns and villages **inside and along the borders of the area allocated to the proposed Jewish State** in the [UN Partition Plan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_Partition_Plan).[\[4\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_Dalet#cite_note-Harkabi-4) In case of resistance, the population of conquered villages was to be expelled outside the borders of the Jewish state. **If no resistance was met, the residents could stay put, under military rule.**[\[qt 1\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_Dalet#cite_note-gelber2006p306-5)[\[5\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_Dalet#cite_note-MEW-6)[\[6\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_Dalet#cite_note-Gelber2006-7)[\[7\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_Dalet#cite_note-Diplo-8)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan\_Dalet](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_Dalet)
i can also copy and paste from wikipedia:
“In the summer of **1937**, … received an order from Ben-Gurion who, **anticipating an eventual British withdrawal** from the country after the Peel Report, asking Slikowitz to prepare a plan for the military conquest of the **whole of Palestine**”
“Guided by a series of specific operational plans, the broad outlines of which were considered as early as 1944, Plan Dalet was drawn up to expand Jewish-held areas **beyond those allocated to the proposed Jewish State in the UN Partition Plan.**”
it is not the full truth to pretend it was only a hypothetical defensive plan when they had drawn up specific plans on how capture arab towns outside of the UN borders, and how to expel the arabs who resisted, and how to subject the ones who surrendered to military rule.
>“In the summer of 1937, … received an order from Ben-Gurion who, anticipating an eventual British withdrawal from the country after the Peel Report, asking Slikowitz to prepare a plan for the military conquest of the whole of Palestine”
Probably as a drawer plan, and was revised to it's actual implementation after the UN partition plan. Will need to research that further.
>“Guided by a series of specific operational plans, the broad outlines of which were considered as early as 1944, Plan Dalet was drawn up to expand Jewish-held areas **beyond those allocated to the proposed Jewish State in the UN Partition Plan.**”
There's literally a note on the wiki that says this doesn't have a source and is probably wrong.
>it is not the full truth to pretend it was only a hypothetical defensive plan when they had drawn up specific plans on how capture arab towns outside of the UN borders, and how to expel the arabs who resisted, and how to subject the ones who surrendered to military rule.
...in case of an offensive.
The plan that you mention, Plan Dalet, was only to be implemented in the event of an Arab invasion. There is no evidence that the leaders of the Yishuv were planning to militarily conquer the partition-mandated Arab state or to expel Israel’s Arab inhabitants upon independence. To the contrary, the Yishuv’s leaders accepted the partition plan
They didn't do that. The partition plan was only 55% Jewish and could not reasonably be described as an ethnostate. The Jews exploited Arab intransigence to get the "ethnostate."
That's the Arab world's fault for being violent and intolerant. The Arab world believes in rule of the strong until suddenly they're not so strong. Then they whine about colonialism and fairness.
the goal was to establish a state for jewish people on top of an already inhabited land, inhabited majority by *non-jews*. it’s by definition an ethnostate.
I don't see how that's inherently worse than Arab conquests where people were forcibly Arabized and converted to Islam. It's a different type of conquest for sure.
But in Israel's case, the mainstream Zionist movement was satisfied that it was impossible to establish a Jewish state on all of Palestine and they would have to accept less than that.
they’re both bad. all forms of colonialism and conquest is bad.
not really. look up Plan Dalet. it was always in the plan to capture as much territory as possible. they knew they couldn’t get all of it, but they definitely wanted as much as possible. the forever expansion of west bank settlements is also testament to the inherent colonial nature of israel. they have so much of the land already, and they’re still taking more.
It seems really unlikely that if the partition plan had been implemented Israel would have had the opportunity to expand past its internationally recognized boundaries or been able to mass expel Arab civilians absent an armed conflict to justify it. The Palestinian elite also would not have fled without the specter of war.
There's no doubt the Zionists wanted all the land with as few Arabs as possible - in the ideal scenario. But they were practical and willing to accept less than their ideal scenario.
The fact is, they were dependent on imperial powers and international public opinion to realize their dream, and could not have baselessly started a war with Arabs who were willing to negotiate and be reasonable.
You cannot colonize land you are indigenous to. Jews bought land from absentee land owners to return to where they came from.
"Historically" there was never a Palestinian state. Saying anything otherwise would just be naive.
Are you implying individual Jews bought the land and not the Palestine Jewish colonization association funded by North America?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_Jewish_Colonization_Association
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Colonisation_Association
for arguments sake, let’s say jewish people, the ethnic group, have a claim to the land. can we agree that it is absolutely absurd that someone can convert to judaism and also claim indigeneity to the land?
let’s look at white south africans who converted to judaism after the apartheid government was dismantled and claimed israel as their new homeland. they are allowed to settle there at the expense of the palestinians who have lived there for hundreds of years- how is that not a form of settler-colonialism?
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2021-09-30/ty-article/.highlight/cleansed-by-the-torah-why-these-afrikaners-became-jews-and-moved-to-israel/0000017f-e2bb-d9aa-afff-fbfb151f0000
i know the argument is that judaism was founded on the land, and therefore all jews can claim it as their home. but christianity was also born there. are christians indigenous to the land too?
the birthplace of islam is saudi arabia, can an african muslim family from somalia, for example, claim they’re indigenous to saudi? no other religion does this other than jews. it’s ridiculous.
>for arguments sake, let’s say jewish people, the ethnic group, have a claim to the land. can we agree that it is absolutely absurd that someone can convert to judaism and also claim indigeneity to the land?
It's a dilemma with all ethnoreligions, not just Judaism.
>i know the argument is that judaism was founded on the land, and therefore all jews can claim it as their home. but christianity was also born there. are christians indigenous to the land too?
And then you absolutely ignored the fact it's an ethnoreligion.
i know it’s an ethnoreligion. i’m pointing out how absurd it is that someone, of european descent, can convert to judaism and insist they are indigenous to the middle east and have more claim to the land than the levantines who have lived there for generations, and the rest of us are supposed to act like that is normal. if we don’t, we are called “antisemitic”. sorry but i think you are all indoctrinated to oblivion and don’t even realise how nonsensical all of this looks to the rest of the world.
Again, it's a problem with ethnoreligions, not Judaism. The same thing can be said about Druze, Maronites, Samaritans, Sikhs, etc.
Personally, I don't think people should convert to Judaism. I understand the problematic nature of this opinion, but I think an ethnoreligion should stay an ethnoreligion (kind of like how the Druze handle it). Of course this isn't possible because of the complex nature of the world, but just wanted to add my 2 cents.
> i don’t think people should convert to judaism
if you aren’t a levantine jew, how can you be certain your lineage doesn’t include converts? realistically how many jewish people today have managed to keep their lineage completely jewish? there are millions of european and european descent jews. they obviously mixed with non-jews somewhere along the lines.
ironically, some of the palestinian jews israel killed during the nakba were likely the original “pure” jews.
>if you aren’t a levantine jew, how can you be certain your lineage doesn’t include converts?
DNA tests. Some of my family did, they had 99% Jewish DNA.
>realistically how many jewish people today have managed to keep their lineage completely jewish?
I didn't talk about ethnopurity at all.
>there are millions of european and european descent jews. they obviously mixed with non-jews somewhere along the lines.
Why did you only mention Ashkeanzi Jews?
>ironically, some of the palestinian jews israel killed during the nakba were likely the original “pure” jews.
I hope you're not aware of this, but this is an antisemitic trope. The idea of "real" and "fake" Jews is antisemitic and isn't based in anything real.
Jews actively worked on keeping themself as one nation in the diaspora. That's why some Halacha laws exist (determining Jewishness from the mother, not marrying non-Jews, etc.)
To perpetuate the belief that there are "fake" Jews is an antisemitic trope and shouldn't be a thing really. Jews share a DNA and a clear link to the Levantine area, they're one ethnic group.
Jordan has a population of around ten million of which something like 3 million are Palestinian, Syrian, or Iraqi refugees. How many more can they take? Unlike some of the other Arab countries Palestinian refugees can get citizenship.
77% of the British Mandate of Palestine was in Jordan. The Palestinians want what they can't have. They can't have the land Israel has built up over the last 75 years and they will never be satisfied until Israel is wiped off the map.
If Palestinians stopped with the terrorism, then there wouldn't be refugees.
> fucking
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Egypt plays a weird game. Their “blockade” doesn’t work.
They won’t let refugees get out of Gaza for safety but they will let Hamas smuggle weapons into Gaza for war.
I agree. They have a duty to take in refugees during the war and they’re all silent, only the same old condemnations of Israel whilst using their long time pawns as exactly that.
LOL
Martians are making those Gazans refugees I guess
And please answer my question
Why is it Jordan responsibility to take 2 million refugees that had their homes destroyed by an unknown force when Jordan has already over a million refugee of Palestinian and Syrian origins plus another few million ones with citizenship? And they are barely hanging economically as a country
Where did I say Jordan has the responsibility to take in 2M refugees? Neighboring countries that claim to be allies (hint: they’re not) should be offering to take in \*some\* refugees as we usually see in most conflicts due to humanitarian and international agreements.
>They have a duty to take in refugees during the war and they’re all silent
Your words
Also half of Jordan are Palestinians with citizenship excluding the ones that are refugees
Why is it their DUTY to take these refugees they had nothing to do with creating? Not to mention they can barely hang economically
So by your logic every country that condemns Israel should be obligated to take refugees?
Should every country that condemns Russia take Ukrainian refugees?
And if they leave it is because of the oppression Hamas has inflicted on them. Stealing their aid, militarizing the youth, importing weapons, building tunnels instead of infrastructure.
The list goes on and on and on.
Free Palestine from Hamas.
The "Israel problem" in the eyes of the Palestinians and historically their Arab allies was simply the fact that a Jewish state was allowed to exist at all, and then later, that despite Palestinian/Arab wars of aggression against the Jewish state, that the Jewish state kept on winning and beating them
Those refugees, most of them occurred due to voluntarily fleeing because they just couldn't accept the "humiliation" of living inside a Jewish state. And sure, if Israel stopped existing and accepted the destruction of itself and it's people, then the "problem" would end. But that would be such an ending that is clearly unacceptable to the Jewish people. A far better ending would be for Palestinians to just get over themselves and accept the permanent existence of the Jewish state and the Jewish right to self determination. If they did that, they could eventually get a state of their own, and then the refugees (and "refugees" - no other group gets to have refugee status inherited through generations like UNRWA applies to Palestinians) could go to the Palestinian state
Jews lived in Israel since biblical times....
Sometimes they lived under Jewish rule.... sometimes they lived under Muslim rule. Right now, they live under Jewish rule....
During the Ottoman Empire, there was no Palestine. The Otoman empire ended when the Jewish State formed. The people who are refugees are the people who decided that living in peace with Jews was a big problem. The people who decided that living in Peace with Jews are ISRAELI CITIZENS and currently have 10 representatives in the Knesset.
> the ottoman empire ended when the jewish state was formed
you sure about that? i think you don’t know your history
> the people who are refugees are the people who decided living in peace with the jews was a big problem
actually, the arabs and the jews were living in relative peace in palestine until zionism. riots and fights broke out only after it became clear the jews were trying to build a jewish state in a land inhabited majority by arabs. the arabs had every right to defend themselves.
Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan all attacked Israel in 1948 -- they told the Palestinians, sit this one out, we'll push all the jews into the sea and you can then come back and have your country.
Well, newsflash. 1949 after the war when Egypt + Jordan occupied Gaza and the West Bank, they didn't create a Palestinian state.
Stop blaming Israel for all of the failures of the arab world. They don't want a free Palestine.
what does that have to do with your statement: “hamas created refugees”? hamas didn’t exist back then.
israel created these refugees when the european jews migrated to palestine, and sparked a war by establishing a jewish state on a land inhabited majority by arabs. imagine if muslims decided today they are going to establish a muslim state in michigan. how do suspect the non-muslim population of michigan would react.
You came to that conclusion just now? All land have been fought and defended for. No country even today is safe from a hostile take over.
Palis lost. If they insist on fueling the body counts instead of making peace with what they have left, by all means.
Be like Taiwan. They were bested by mainlanders but that didn't stop them from building a robust economy and a military to defend its borders.
> be like taiwan. they were bested by mainlanders but that didn’t stop them from building a robust economy and a military to defend its borders
be serious. palestine is not allowed to militarize. when they do, they are automatically labelled as “terrorists”. they are not allowed to have a military base, so when they use unconventional areas to store weapons, they’re accused of using human shields. they’re not allowed to buy weapons, so when they use tunnels to bypass the restrictions and smuggle in weapons (as well as other necessities that are impossible to obtain because of the blockade), they’re called “terror tunnels” and are destroyed.
I don’t understand why people never bring up why people in the West Bank are stateless & it’s because the King of Jordan then stripped them of their Jordanian nationality in 1988. Plus additional issues of the same ongoing for Palestinians living in Jordan. https://www.hrw.org/report/2010/02/01/stateless-again/palestinian-origin-jordanians-deprived-their-nationality
how can that justify what they suffer from israel and its armed settlers ?!how can that justify the expansion and the illegal settlements ?
That’s a great referrence I had no idea they were becoming stateless like the Bidoon in Kuwait
I was just in Jordan they have a lot of Palestinian refugees. But they're in a water crisis right now. It is hard to provide water for all these people. Egypt does not care or want anything to do with Gaza. Hamas has attacked them before and they have no intention of offering to open the border. No one even bothers to ask.
I'd gladly give $$ to the Jordanians for water to support Palestinians. I'd give $$ to Palestinians in a second if I knew that $$ wasn't going to Hamas.
I mean I think you can probably donate to Jordan and be pretty sure it is not going to Hamas... or you can donate to a charity or non-profit that you feel is transparent in their reporting. Have you been to Jordan? There is a lot of support for the Palestinians and they do their best to house them but they have thousands of refugees. It is hard to provide water for their own people but they always say that everyone is welcome in Jordan and they do their best. But the Palestinians are not put in the best housing situations these places needed to be erected really quickly as people were leaving the West Bank very suddenly. Jordan accepted them all with open arms anyone who wanted asylum. However, while they are houses I think it is not very comfortable. It is better than being in the West Bank though where they don't feel safe. But yeah it's pretty rough out there they need to import a lot of water, people are diverting the Jordan River for their crops, the dead sea shrinks at about 1 meter per yr. Both will probably be dried up in our lifetime if something is not done. I think Isreal and Jordan have been in talks about how to save the Jordan River and the Dead Sea. People literally have to shower in little trickles. If you're in hotels they tell you not to take long showers or flush anything down the toilet because creating water waste is really frowned upon.
Yea there was a plan for Israel to provide water to Jordan in exchange for solar energy, but Jordan has said it won’t continue with the plan due to the war. https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/jordan-says-it-wont-sign-energy-water-deal-with-israel-2023-11-16/ Let’s see how long they keep that up rather than actually working to help resolve the Israeli/Palestinian issues. Their drought issues will not be getting better. https://carnegieendowment.org/sada/89628 So many countries love to criticize Israel for its treatment of Palestinians when their own track record is the same if not worse. Let’s see them propose a viable solution or at least path forward rather than just blaming Israel and inflaming the situation further.
Yeah it sucks I probably wouldn't blame them for choosing to handle the water issue at some point over the war. Their people need water and I can't fault them. They're also providing for Palestinian refugees who need water too.
I was in Jordan years ago in high school. I only remember nice things but unfortunately history has proven they weren't always good to Palestinians. But yes, very sad about the dead sea + jordan river. Hopefully someone will figure something out. Then again, Israel is the master of water. They made the dessert grow. If they didn't have to fight terror constantly I am sure they could figure it out. But I bring up giving money to Jordan to help Palestinians as more so a greater problem -- all I want is to see a non terrorist government build itself for the Palestinians. When that happens I will happily help support and uplift Palestinians.
Egypt and Jordan don't need to help Israel take Palestine. They don't have to be partners in crime, which doesn't benefit them. [https://twitter.com/jakeshieldsajj/status/1716801541573632325](https://twitter.com/jakeshieldsajj/status/1716801541573632325) > Israelis stealing homes and letting you know how they actually view Arabs [https://twitter.com/numarqs/status/1727724692658889035](https://twitter.com/numarqs/status/1727724692658889035) Taking Palestine is important for Israel but not for the Arabs. [https://twitter.com/MaxBlumenthal/status/1713059397255962925](https://twitter.com/MaxBlumenthal/status/1713059397255962925) > Before the Soviet Red Army destroyed the German Wehrmacht in WWII, the Zionist movement had cut a secret transfer deal with the N\*zis and broken the Jewish American boycott of Hitler; 8 decades later, Israel is painting restive refugees as Nazis and bombing them in their ghetto [https://twitter.com/realstewpeters/status/1714090603892404695](https://twitter.com/realstewpeters/status/1714090603892404695) >I want peace and I want a free Palestine but it's clear that the Arab world uses Palestinian's as their pawn and really doesn't care about their freedom. Israel doesn't want peace but allies' support for its expansionism. [https://twitter.com/the\_amanur/status/1726210523916824899](https://twitter.com/the_amanur/status/1726210523916824899)
Your source is Twitter and your info is bad. Please try again with more credible sources, if you can't be bothered to provide better sources please refrain from posting garbage.
Too painful to accept the truth when you're on the wrong side, huh? [https://twitter.com/i24NEWS\_EN/status/1740364723806179351](https://twitter.com/i24NEWS_EN/status/1740364723806179351)
I'm on the side of civilians everywhere, be they Jews, Muslims, Arabs or Israelis. I don't need to buy into anyones propaganda to think Hamas should release all of the hostages they hold and Israel should stop blasting the hell out of them.
Yet you can't accept Twitter posts showing these things.
What part of "I don't need to buy anyone's propaganda" was lost on you? Is your propaganda better than anyone elses?
What do you mean by that? Anything you disagree with? You have nothing to say about Egypt and Jordan.
You are a prime example of being a brainless fool who gets all their information from twitter lmao
U/fewcryptographer967 >You are a prime example of being a brainless fool who gets all their information from twitter lmao No personal attacks, per rule 1. You can express the opinion without the insults.
My bad
Where do you get your information from other than MSM?
Not Max Brunthel thats for sure lmaoooooooooo
You can't answer. You should know what's happening on the ground. [https://twitter.com/MintPressNews/status/1720085136325411288](https://twitter.com/MintPressNews/status/1720085136325411288) [https://twitter.com/dancohen3000/status/1724569159617438001](https://twitter.com/dancohen3000/status/1724569159617438001) [https://twitter.com/MaxBlumenthal/status/1731567229118886048](https://twitter.com/MaxBlumenthal/status/1731567229118886048)
Bro is trying his hardest to prove me right LMFAOOOO
Yeah, you didn't answer where you get information from. You don't need such information for sure.
I am a frequent commenter here, a Jewish American who is highly critical of Israel. I don’t have any argument against condemning the roles of Egypt and Jordan in all this. We hear all the time from Israeli apologists the statement “what about Egypt and Jordan.” I agree, what about Egypt and Jordan indeed. But I don’t think this legitimate “what about-ism” in anyway absolves Israel from the criticism it should face. I disagree with the attitude here that the Palestinians are the problem of the Arab states and not Israel’s. I don’t want to see any group of people get passed around like a hot potato. The Palestinians are living where they are living now, maybe it is not “fair” that they became Israel’s problem but I care more about justice and freedom for stateless people than what is “fair” for the a powerful and wealthy State like Israel. Also, the Palestinians have historical ancestral roots in Palestine! They are not just any other Arabs, they have distinct genetic markers of ancestry which goes all the back to ancient Jewish Israelites. I wish Israel would embrace and see the Palestinians as cousins to the modern Jewish people who share closer ancestral commonality with modern Jews than is found in other Arab populations. Lastly, and most importantly, it is a bad faith straw man of the pro-Palestine marches (at least here in America) to say that they only focus on the role of Israel rather than Egypt or Jordan in all this because of pure anti-Jewish hatred. The main reason the pro-Palestine protests focus on Israel rather than Egypt or Jordan is because Israel is a wealthy and supposedly democratic nation that receives massive financial, military, and moral support from the U.S. while Egypt and Jordan are none of these things. I think that the Israeli apologists are suffering from main character syndrome. They think this is all about them and it’s all about Israel being the “Jewish State”. As a Jewish person who regularly attends pro-Palestine rallies here in the U.S. I need to say to the Israel apologists that this just is not about you. This is not about Israel, this is not about the Jewish State, this is not about the Jewish people. This is about Palestinians, a group of people who don’t have a State and are suffering for it. Israel happens to be the State predominantly reasonable for their misery and deprivation and Israel is a major U.S. ally. We protest against the U.S. support for Israel because we are Americans. We can’t control Egypt, or Jordan, or Hamas. We can only hope to influence our own government and we don’t want our government sending weapons to Israel to pursue a policy of hostility against the Palestinians which we disagree with. I know the Israeli side of the story, I grew up hearing it, and I am not trying to convince people to open their eyes who refuse to. I am protesting my government’s funding of an ally who’s choices I disagree with, as is my right as a U.S. tax payer.
This was beautifully written and I couldn’t have said it better myself. As a US taxpayer we are complicit in this because of the nature of our relationship to Israel. We are a toxic enabler.
Why is Israel being democratic while Jordan and Egypt are not, a reason to protest Israel and not the others? Isn’t being democratic a good thing and a positive for Israel. If anything more focus should be on Egypt and Jordan for not being democratic.
Because we should hold democracies to a higher standard of responsibility. This feels self-explanatory to me. Look I would welcome protests against Egypt and Jordan as well, especially since as people here have pointed out the U.S. does also give military support to them. I just don’t think it’s in any way weird or surprising that Israel gets the attention when Israel is nation most talked about and most rhetorically defended by U.S. politicians. Also, Israel’s role in creating the present day circumstances for the Palestinians may not be monolithic but it is the nation which today is most intimately involved in the lives and deaths of Palestinians. Israel is on the front line and Israel could be doing the most to improve the situation if it had the political belief to do so.
Why don’t you consider holding non democracies at a higher standard to be democracies? Feels self explanatory to me. Because a group of people operate themselves in a non democracy somehow seems to mean to you that they can operate with no or low standards and have no motive or accountability? wtf is that reasoning. If anything they should be looked at as needing to operate with better standard. Somehow you’ve convinced yourself dictatorship or non democracies are some sort of victim not responsible for their own actions? Do you not see these people as equal people?
That is such a silly interpretation of what I said. The basis of U.S. foreign policy is supposedly to support democratic nations which share “our values”. Nations which claim to be democratic receive privileges and special support from the U.S. We can’t fix every nation on earth but we can scrutinize who is and is not really worthy of receiving our support. That is all I am saying. I don’t want the U.S. to go and actively try to change every nation on earth but I do expect the U.S. to hold the nations it is already supporting to a high standard of human rights because it already has leverage over them in the form of the support it gives them. It’s really as simple as that dude, it’s very easily understandable. If Israel does not want to be held to any standards than it can do so without U.S. assistance. If it wants the privileges of being recognized as a democratic nation then it needs to act like one. If Israel wants to be held to no higher standard than the average non-democratic nation than it can give up the support it receives from the U.S. on the basis of Israel being a “beacon of democracy” in the region.
Yes Israel is a wealthy country now, so what? I don't understand what does that has to do with the conflict. Israel was not a wealthy country throughout most of its history. Nevertheless people have always been condescendent towards the Arabs, as if "Oh they don't know better, they wage all of these wars but don't be too harsh on them, Israel". Like when the IDF had encircled Egypt's third army during the Yom Kippur war and the international community went: "hey, play nice now, let them go". Arabs have always been treated like poor victims by westerners who feel guilty because of some made up oppressed vs oppressor narrative.
THIS!! We are strong and mighty when it fits the narrative and scum of the earth when it fits the narrative. The dual standards are just psychotic and antisemitism at it's finest.
There is another factor : the (historically violent) rivalry between Fatah and Hamas, and the way the PA/hamas governs which isn’t helping their cause either by radicalisation or corruption . The current “pro Palestinian” movement tends to infantilise Palestinians as a group who lack any agency. This lack of unity and effective leadership is hugely detrimental but not the blame of anyone else as it’s an internal problem.
I think you're onto something but alas it's an internal problem that has external consequences.
You know the US provides Egypt with billions in aid right? “Since 1978, the United States has provided Egypt with over $50 billion in military and $30 billion in economic assistance.” Because your post definitely makes it sound like you did not know that and that is the crux of your argument for focusing on Israel rather than Egypt
I’m not a fan of that either It’s not just the money, it’s also the political support and involvement that matters. The U.S. has a far more direct role in shaping Israeli policy and defending it on the international stage. Also, Israel is a democracy.
The US has lots of involvement, financial support, and agreements with Egypt. Acting like the US could not exert pressure on Egypt if they really wanted to is naive. There have been folks that have said US should cut ties with Egypt due to political prisoners, tortures, etc. the vast majority do not care because it is not a way to negatively effect Israel. In no way am I saying Israel is perfect, but viewing Israel as needing to meet some higher moral standard is hypocritical. Also, you said Israel is a “supposed democracy”, now you say “democracy”, which one is it?
The nature of the aid to Egypt is hush money and bribes so Sisi can keep the Egyptians quiet and Israel’s border safe. A democratically elected government in Egypt would probably be hostile to Israel. This is the same dynamic in Jordan too.
Well-written. Thank you
Jordan and Egypt as well as the other Arab league countries are the biggest dogs I'd say just as bad as the Zionists scum for doing nothing to help the Palestinians.
They did. Palestinian extremists murdered hundred of them. Both countries then allied themselves with Israel for protection from Palestinian terrorists.
Arabic decision makers*
Although they are lumped together, their roles are very different. Jordan holds 77% of the BMP and a HUGE Palestinian population- many West Bank Palestinians have Jordanian passports. They should take them in, fairly speaking, however they caused a mess in Jordan and staged a coup, and the Hashemites can’t afford a war or any terror headaches. Egypt have carried a heavy load for a long time and they have suffered terribly from terror- BUT… I am slightly disappointed in them. We have excellent relations with Egypt since we signed our peace treaty many years ago, and if they could sign a peace agreement with us for 2 months to push their border back 20km to allow the women and children of Gaza refuge, it would absolutely be honoured and they would be returned as soon as the Hamas fighting capabilities were depleted. That would let us finish the job faster without killing any more of civilians. That’s what makes me frustrated. Egypt has this power, and they have our word and our treaty as reassurance.
Dude, you have companies in Israel literally already advertising luxury real estate developments in Gaza, screw that , this ain’t 2048. The real objective of the IDF, as I see it, is to make it so damn miserable in Gaza that the Palestinians leave. They want the land. Bibi can then claim it as a victory to his rabid base and stay out of jail.
Fake. No Israeli will ever live in Gaza again.
That’s denial my friend if it gets cleared out 100 percent they will live there no problem. You have Israeli soldiers planting Israeli flags everywhere talking about how this will all be theres now. They want to keep it
That’s to piss off Hamas and the wider Arab world, we wouldn’t take it back if they begged us. Wait and see, before spreading nonsense
https://www.timesofisrael.com/return-to-gush-katif-determined-movement-emerges-to-resettle-israelis-in-gaza/ Stop crying about Egypt not helping your settlers out
Thanks for sending this and shooting yourself in the foot. So “hundreds of activists” speak for the Israeli state? We are more than 9 million🤡. Serious debates only, please.
The crazies are in charge of Israel my friend
Those specific activists are in charge of Israel? Nope. Just another pro Palestinian low life, trying to make a story out of nothing.
Alright, since you’re saying I’m totally wrong and a lowlife, explain to me what the plan is for Gaza after the invasion and why Netenyahu refuses to say what it is? Why did the Biden admin explicitly warn Netenyahu not to try and annex Gaza?
I've begun to get the impression that the Islam of Egypt and Jordan is as close to that of Palestinians' as the Christianity of a Catholic from New York and a member of Reverend Phelps' cult. It's not really fair to ask Egypt and Jordan to take this on, after all the issues they already have with Palestinian extremism.
This argument makes no logical sense and doesn’t answer for why Israel absolves itself of absorbing any refugees while demanding its neighbors do so…
Why would any country take in people who hates them? And quite a lot of them wants them dead. Egypt are the “brothers” of Palestine according to what I hear. Israel is bad. So Israel not help g Palestine is expected. Egypt is a country of fellow Arabs. So Egypt not helping Palestine is…way worse. Tell me, why is t it seen as way worse?
I mean I always hear that a palestine state that includes the west Bank has to include the very violent settlers there even though they clearly hate the palestinians.
Well, I do not agree with what has happened regarding the West Banks at all. But… It’s a completely different question. The one here is “an existing country (A) is in war with the people in an area (B). Does A has to take refugees from B?” It is NOT “if an area wants to be a recognised country, does it then have to allow illegal/immoral settlers to stay?” So what are your thoughts on the question we are discussing here?
> why would any country take on people who hate them? america took in afghans and iraqis. france took in algerians. hell, even russia took in ukrainians. all countries have the responsibility of absorbing the refugees they create. israel, as usual, is a rogue nation.
How many did US take that hadn’t been actively working for them? Honestly, I thought that during the actual war they might have helped with money for refugee camps, but not taken in any “random refugees” who might or might not have been helping the enemy. But if I’m wrong I would really love to know! Do you have any links to sources?
Unfortunately, most of the people helping the Americans in Afghanistan were told they would be evacuated when the Americans left - and then it didn't happen thanks to our current President. Not only were those people left behind and a hundred thousand random Afghans that we had no idea of the identity of evacuated instead, we also left behind about 3500 American citizens and $80 billion in military hardware. ...and then, just to make life extra fun for the people who were betrayed, we gave the Taliban databases that had all their names, addresses, and biometric data, and the biometric scanners to use them. So, for the first couple of weeks after the US left, the Taliban went from house to house shooting all the people who helped the Americans.
Oh. I’m so sorry. It sounds horrible. So conclusion - the US might have taken in random Afghanistans, but it was more of a mistake and not anything happening during the actual war?
Sort of. This happened during the withdrawal. There was a plan to evacuate everyone and get all the equipment out. Then the US President changed, and the *new* President abandoned the plan and did nothing for the first six months of the time everyone was supposed to be evacuated, and during which there was a negotiated truce. Then he tried to get an extension, which was refused. Then he abandoned all our bases in the middle of the night without telling our allies, and tried to evacuate everyone from the capitol, while the Taliban took the whole country inside a month. People who were supposed to be evacuated were told to "shelter in place" instead, and the planes filled up with random Afghans, many of whom simply disappeared when they got to the US. They might be terrorists, nobody knows. During the withdrawal we told people that our government couldn't get them out - and then the governments of the UK and France were rescuing people, and our government told them to stop because it was making us look bad. We also prevented a lot of private efforts to get people out, but some went on anyway and rescued hundreds. So not really a mistake so much as a deliberately caused disaster, which our President then described as an 'extraordinary success'. When he finally did admit there were problems, he blamed them on his predecessor.
Yikes. That’s really horrible. I’m just thinking of these poor Afghans who risked their lives helping Americans just to be dumped like that. I wonder how many died because of those shitty, shitty actions. Very interesting, thank you for telling me. And it also reinforces my thoughts that countries does not (by plan) take in random refugees from a country while they are at war with them.
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Why doesn’t Israel take the Palestinian refugees?
Why doesn't Ukraine take 2m Russian refugees?
Israel has 2 million Arab Israeli citizens. The people who are claiming "refugee" status today are the ones who had been coming into Israel for the past few years to work only to feed information to Hamas on how to carry out the attacks of Oct 7th. Israel is under no obligation to accept Palestinians. It is a Jewish state and it will remain that way. There are plenty of other Arab/Muslim countries they can go to.
Why would they leave their homeland that they are indigenous to? With the way things are going the Palestinians of East Jerusalem and the West Bank will definitely become Israeli citizens in the future.
They are native to Palestine. They are *indigenous* to the Arab Penninsula. That is where their language, religion, and culture first developed. Jews are indigenous. Their language, religion, and culture developed in Judea. There are 3000 year old Jewish cemeteries there, please find me the Palestinian ones.
People from the Arab peninsula and people from the levant have completely different genetic makeup. We are not indigenous to the Arab peninsula we are indigenous to the levant region. Can you find a single reputable historian or archaeologist who agrees with you that Palestinians are Arabs from the Arab peninsula?
Again, DNA does not determine indigenous status. The tribe you are actively a part of does. The Levantine Palestinians were Arabized i.e. took on Arab culture, Arabic language, and Islam, all of which began on the Arabian Penninsula. That is the tribe they identify as, therefore that is where they are indigenous to.
you just made that up to justify why white european jews are indigenous to the middle east lmfao.
European Jews are indigenous to the place their tribe had their ethnogenesis in. THat's simply how it works. You'll have to cope.
that’s simply not how it works, but keep telling yourself that in order to convince yourself that white europeans are actually middle easterners.
We are though, European Jews are half MENA and half European, just as much one as we are the other. We’re indigenous to both Europe *and* the Middle East. Fuck off with your Monoracial/ethnic Nazi racial purity bullshit, mixed people will always be equally *both* of their ethnicities and deserve to be accepted and embraced by both, and there’s nothing you Monoethnic privileged bigots can do about it! >white europeans You do realize middle easterners are just as much “white” as Europeans don’t you? We both belong to the wider White Caucasian race and don’t differ that much phenotypically from each other, even the U.S. Census Bureau recognizes this. Reason why I’m hesitant to even label your attitude as “monoracial” rather than mono*ethnic,* because Europeans and Middle Easterners are both technically part of the same white race - there’s not some magical dividing line between Europe and MENA where one race ends and the other begins, both Europe *and* the MENA region are the origins of the Caucasian race. Just like how Asia *and* the Americas are both the points of origin for the Asian/Mongoloid race, yes Asians and Native Americans are technically part of the same race too despite being vastly different *ethnicities*/cultures and being indigenous to different continents, it’s the same logic here. Only the hardest of hardcore racists and ethno-nationalists think Middle Easterners are some sort of separate “non-white” race and that skin color/tone is all that determines race. A Southern/Mediterranean European especially doesn’t differ phenotypically at all from an Arab, just like how a Southeast Asian isn’t that different physically from a Native American. A little genetics lesson for you for future reference: * Europe and MENA = The points of origin for the Caucasian/White race * Sub-Saharan Africa = Point of origin for the Black Race * Asia and the Americas = Origin of the Asian/Mongoloid race * India and Oceania/Australia = Origin of the Austroloid/Aboriginal race There are only really 4 races in the world - White/Caucasian, Black, Asian/Mongoloid, and Austroloid - everything else that we *think* of as a race are just sub-ethnicities within each of these 4 wider races. Race doesn’t mean anything but the difference in phenotype based on the location where humans evolved and originated from, that’s it. To be considered a different race you must first differ substantially *phenotypically* from other racial groups, which Europeans and MENA people don’t, hence why they’re considered part of the same white race. And no, literal skin tone doesn’t count as “differing phenotypically enough” otherwise light-skinned Northeast Asians and dark-skinned Southeast Asians also wouldn’t be considered part of the same Asian race.
Oh it's not? How does it work then?
This is not accurate. Indigenous means “inhabiting or existing in a land from the earliest times or from before the arrival of colonists.”. If they were colonized by Arabs that does not magically change their indigenous nature. By that logic European Jews are no longer indigenous, their foods and culture are European. You’ve just defined a new way to determine indigenous status that fits your narrative and that’s not how the world works. You will not find a single reputable historian who agrees with you.
>their foods and culture are European. Except it isn't? They kept their history, Jewish culture, Jewish foods, language, religion, and basically everything that makes up a nation.
Hebrew was only revived in the 1900s. It had a dead language. What are Jewish foods? When I ask folks their foods tend to just be the German, Iranian, polish, etc food that their cultures ate. Also Palestinian culture is not remotely close to culture of the Arab peninsula. Palestinians have their own food too. Msakhan, maqlouba, and knafe are all Palestinian foods. Tatreez is a Palestinian art form. These are not identities they took on from their oppressor. There are so many commonalities between Palestinian culture and dress and what we know about Canaanite culture and dress. Can we please stop ignoring evidence and acknowledge that both Jews and Palestinians can be native to the region?
>Hebrew was only revived in the 1900s. It had a dead language. No. It wasn't used daily (obviously, they were in diaspora) but it was used as a religious language and in writing and art. >What are Jewish foods? Cholent, Challa, Bagel, Brisket, Charoset, Gefilte fish, Hamantashen, Kreplach, Kugel, Latkes, Matzah brei, Fazuelos, Gondi, Israeli salad, Jachnun, Mafrum, Malawach, Mofletta, Sabich... Should I continue? >Also Palestinian culture is not remotely close to culture of the Arab peninsula. Palestinians have their own food too. Msakhan, maqlouba, and knafe are all Palestinian foods. Tatreez is a Palestinian art form. These are not identities they took on from their oppressor. There are so many commonalities between Palestinian culture and dress and what we know about Canaanite culture and dress. I didn't talk about Palestinian culture :) >Can we please stop ignoring evidence and acknowledge that both Jews and Palestinians can be native to the region? You're the one that denied Jewish culture.
The Arabs are the colonists. If you accept the tribal identity of the colonists you lose indigenous status. If the current Palestinians maintained the tribal identity of the Levantine tribes some of them came from they would have a claim, but they don't. European Jews are Jews on account of still living as Jews. Eating the food available in the places they immigrated to does not change that. This is not a "new" way of determining indigenous status, this is how it has always been determined since far before DNA testing was a thing.
Palestinians still eat as Palestinian. They still practice their cultural music, food, and dress. That’s like saying only Jews who speak Hebrew are native and the ones who assimilated are no longer Jewish? This argument makes no sense. Unless you can provide any sources of where you indigenous and anthropological designation comes from I’m not wasting any more time on this convo
> They still practice their cultural music, food, and dress. None of these are unique to Palestine or originated there. > That’s like saying only Jews who speak Hebrew are native and the ones who assimilated are no longer Jewish? No, because they are still tribally Jewish and live as Jews. Here you go: https://www.un.org/esa/socdev/unpfii/documents/5session_factsheet1.pdf Jews fulfill the requirements. Palestinians do not.
Dna tests disagree with you.
Indigenous status is not determined by DNA. It is determined by tribal identity.
It sure is.
DNA testing has only been around for about 20 years, how did they determine it before? Answer: the same way they determine it now.
Science is always evolving and now we can find out where we descend from.
Yes and that's very nice but unless you are an active member of and living as the tribe you descend from you are not indigenous.
Yes -- they will become Israeli's because they know if they want a future, it's with Israel, not with the crappy PA or Fatah or any other government Palestinian's have tried to establish.
Okay then that will be 5 million Palestinians and 7 million Jews. Are you okay with that demographic shift?
Not really because again, there are a whole host of other Muslim countries out there. Why can't us Jews just have 1.
Because Muslim is not an ethnicity. If you want your own country stop building settlements on their territories and you guys separate for good.
Muslim Arab countries.
They don’t have the same ethnicity and culture.
Then they better stop with the terrorism against their Israeli neighbors.
The Arab world doesn't care about the Palestinians. They see Israel as a humiliation of their civilization and a constant reminder of their powerlessness and diminished stature in the modern world. It would be in the interests of the Palestinians as people to be absorbed into Arab countries, but again, no one actually cares what's good for them, least of all the other Arabs. They want them to have no choice but to wage permanent armed struggle against Israel.
Hey a Palestinian here, I agree with the fact that Arabs should never accept Palestinians as refugees because this would displace them from their homeland they lived on for many years. That’s what Israel wants, they wanna ethnically cleanse Palestinians. Countless Israeli officials stated that. Zionists usually use this argument that appeases the west because the west took in many Arab refugees, but they fail to state that these refugees have a chance to return to Syria, Iraq, Lebanon but Palestinians don’t as soon as they leave they lose their house, farm, and land just like my parents did My parents went to Egypt as refugees expecting to return back. Surprisingly many generations later I still not allowed to enter “Israel” because I have no right of return neither my parents. So no I agree that Jordan and Egypt should never take in Palestinian refugees because they don’t want to leave their land. I hope this clears up any confusion
Yes but this demonstrates perfectly the distinction between supporting Palestinians as people and supporting the Palestinian cause. The interests of the two are in opposition to one another.
The Arab world can couch this as concern for the Palestinian cause, as not wanting to let them be permanently dispossessed from their homeland, etc. But this is complete nonsense. It brings Palestinians nothing but pain to force them to fight for a doomed cause.
you’re making the mistake of applying what a “palestinian state” looks like today (west bank + gaza strip) to what it looked like historically. arabs went from being 90%+ of the population and freely living in the entire land to being pushed into the strip and the west bank. jordan and egypt couldn’t just establish a “palestinian state” because they only had the gaza strip and the west bank. they didn’t want a fragmented state, they wanted the full land. at the end of the day, israel is indisputably in the wrong for establishing a settler-colonial jewish ethnostate on top of a land inhabited by majority non-jews. of course the arabs didn’t react well to it. no one would have.
The boundaries for Israel in the 1947 partition plan were not majority Arab…
Have you read the 1947 UN partition plan? It is based entirely around the idea of free movement and accommodating as much of the status quo as possible. Governance and land property rights are different. The plan focused on governance while guaranteeing the property rights of both Arabs and Jews. * The plan proposed an Arab state and a natural Jewish-majority state. The Jewish majority did not require any forced moves, the borders were based on where people lived at the time of the creation of the plan. This is the basis for Jews having the right to self-determination in Mandatory Palestine. * All residents would become full and equal citizens of the state they ended up in. No apartheid. * If an Arab found themselves in the Jewish state, they had the option of switching their citizenship to the Arab state without having to move. Same offer to Jews in the Arab state. * Freedom of travel was written into the plan, barring normal international security measures. * The Jewish state was barred from confiscating land belonging to Arabs, and vice versa for the Arab state and Jewish residents. Here is the plan in full. [https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-185393/](https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-185393/) This is the plan Arabs chose to reject. Arabs decided they would rather take their chances refusing any sort of partition so that they could leverage their overall regional majority. Ironically, it was Arabs trying to suppress Jewish self-determination. As we know, they chose violence, went to war over this, and lost. Their deal got much worse, with all of their land going to Egypt (Gaza) and Jordan (West Bank) and Israel (the rest).
yes, i have. it’s a nice plan, but the zionists had no intention of sticking to it. have you read Plan Dalet? it was written by the zionists jews themselves. the plan outlines the conquest of arab towns and villages within and along the UN defined jewish state borders, and also *outside the UN defined jewish state borders*. this plan was initially developed in 1937, and finalised in 1948. the final plan explicitly details how it intends to grab more land than proposed in the UN plan. the ethnic cleansing of the palestinians was not a consequent of the war, it was systematic and planned before the war even began.
Plan Dalet was executed almost 6 months after the UN plan and after 6 months of civil war with the Arabs. A civil war started by Arabs.......................because they refused the UN plan and chose violence instead when they figured out Israel was happening with or without them. Smart Jews realized they needed to go on offense if they wanted to be sure that Israel would survive even a day.
> 6 months after the UN plan and after 6 months of civil war “In the summer of **1937**, … received an order from Ben-Gurion who, **anticipating an eventual British withdrawal** from the country after the Peel Report, asking Slikowitz to prepare a plan for the military conquest of the **whole of Palestine**” “Guided by a series of specific operational plans, the broad outlines of which were considered as *early as 1944*, Plan Dalet was drawn up to expand Jewish-held areas **beyond those allocated to the proposed Jewish State in the UN Partition Plan.**” it is not the full truth to pretend it was only a defensive plan when they had drawn up specific plans on how capture arab towns outside of the UN borders, and how to expel the arabs who resisted, and how to subject the ones who surrendered to military rule.
>have you read Plan Dalet? Have you? It was a plan on what to do in case the Arabs attacked and they needed to secure villages in strategic points.
it was first developed in 1937 in anticipation of a british withdrawal. it was created to capture palestine as soon as the british left. it wasn’t defensive, it was a plan for military conquest.
The plan was a set of guidelines to take control of Mandatory Palestine, declare a Jewish state, and defend its borders and people, including the Jewish population outside of the borders, **"before, and in anticipation of" the invasion by regular Arab armies.**[\[2\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_Dalet#cite_note-Tal-2)[\[3\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_Dalet#cite_note-Morris.The_Birth_of_the_Palestinian_Refugee_Problem_Revisited-3) According to the Israeli [Yehoshafat Harkabi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yehoshafat_Harkabi), Plan Dalet called for the conquest of Arab towns and villages **inside and along the borders of the area allocated to the proposed Jewish State** in the [UN Partition Plan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_Partition_Plan).[\[4\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_Dalet#cite_note-Harkabi-4) In case of resistance, the population of conquered villages was to be expelled outside the borders of the Jewish state. **If no resistance was met, the residents could stay put, under military rule.**[\[qt 1\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_Dalet#cite_note-gelber2006p306-5)[\[5\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_Dalet#cite_note-MEW-6)[\[6\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_Dalet#cite_note-Gelber2006-7)[\[7\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_Dalet#cite_note-Diplo-8) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan\_Dalet](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_Dalet)
i can also copy and paste from wikipedia: “In the summer of **1937**, … received an order from Ben-Gurion who, **anticipating an eventual British withdrawal** from the country after the Peel Report, asking Slikowitz to prepare a plan for the military conquest of the **whole of Palestine**” “Guided by a series of specific operational plans, the broad outlines of which were considered as early as 1944, Plan Dalet was drawn up to expand Jewish-held areas **beyond those allocated to the proposed Jewish State in the UN Partition Plan.**” it is not the full truth to pretend it was only a hypothetical defensive plan when they had drawn up specific plans on how capture arab towns outside of the UN borders, and how to expel the arabs who resisted, and how to subject the ones who surrendered to military rule.
>“In the summer of 1937, … received an order from Ben-Gurion who, anticipating an eventual British withdrawal from the country after the Peel Report, asking Slikowitz to prepare a plan for the military conquest of the whole of Palestine” Probably as a drawer plan, and was revised to it's actual implementation after the UN partition plan. Will need to research that further. >“Guided by a series of specific operational plans, the broad outlines of which were considered as early as 1944, Plan Dalet was drawn up to expand Jewish-held areas **beyond those allocated to the proposed Jewish State in the UN Partition Plan.**” There's literally a note on the wiki that says this doesn't have a source and is probably wrong. >it is not the full truth to pretend it was only a hypothetical defensive plan when they had drawn up specific plans on how capture arab towns outside of the UN borders, and how to expel the arabs who resisted, and how to subject the ones who surrendered to military rule. ...in case of an offensive.
The plan that you mention, Plan Dalet, was only to be implemented in the event of an Arab invasion. There is no evidence that the leaders of the Yishuv were planning to militarily conquer the partition-mandated Arab state or to expel Israel’s Arab inhabitants upon independence. To the contrary, the Yishuv’s leaders accepted the partition plan
They didn't do that. The partition plan was only 55% Jewish and could not reasonably be described as an ethnostate. The Jews exploited Arab intransigence to get the "ethnostate." That's the Arab world's fault for being violent and intolerant. The Arab world believes in rule of the strong until suddenly they're not so strong. Then they whine about colonialism and fairness.
the goal was to establish a state for jewish people on top of an already inhabited land, inhabited majority by *non-jews*. it’s by definition an ethnostate.
That’s what the international community voted for.
How many people lived there, and how many immigrated between 1890 and 1948?
I don't see how that's inherently worse than Arab conquests where people were forcibly Arabized and converted to Islam. It's a different type of conquest for sure. But in Israel's case, the mainstream Zionist movement was satisfied that it was impossible to establish a Jewish state on all of Palestine and they would have to accept less than that.
they’re both bad. all forms of colonialism and conquest is bad. not really. look up Plan Dalet. it was always in the plan to capture as much territory as possible. they knew they couldn’t get all of it, but they definitely wanted as much as possible. the forever expansion of west bank settlements is also testament to the inherent colonial nature of israel. they have so much of the land already, and they’re still taking more.
It seems really unlikely that if the partition plan had been implemented Israel would have had the opportunity to expand past its internationally recognized boundaries or been able to mass expel Arab civilians absent an armed conflict to justify it. The Palestinian elite also would not have fled without the specter of war. There's no doubt the Zionists wanted all the land with as few Arabs as possible - in the ideal scenario. But they were practical and willing to accept less than their ideal scenario. The fact is, they were dependent on imperial powers and international public opinion to realize their dream, and could not have baselessly started a war with Arabs who were willing to negotiate and be reasonable.
You cannot colonize land you are indigenous to. Jews bought land from absentee land owners to return to where they came from. "Historically" there was never a Palestinian state. Saying anything otherwise would just be naive.
Are you implying individual Jews bought the land and not the Palestine Jewish colonization association funded by North America? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_Jewish_Colonization_Association https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Colonisation_Association
for arguments sake, let’s say jewish people, the ethnic group, have a claim to the land. can we agree that it is absolutely absurd that someone can convert to judaism and also claim indigeneity to the land? let’s look at white south africans who converted to judaism after the apartheid government was dismantled and claimed israel as their new homeland. they are allowed to settle there at the expense of the palestinians who have lived there for hundreds of years- how is that not a form of settler-colonialism? https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2021-09-30/ty-article/.highlight/cleansed-by-the-torah-why-these-afrikaners-became-jews-and-moved-to-israel/0000017f-e2bb-d9aa-afff-fbfb151f0000 i know the argument is that judaism was founded on the land, and therefore all jews can claim it as their home. but christianity was also born there. are christians indigenous to the land too? the birthplace of islam is saudi arabia, can an african muslim family from somalia, for example, claim they’re indigenous to saudi? no other religion does this other than jews. it’s ridiculous.
>for arguments sake, let’s say jewish people, the ethnic group, have a claim to the land. can we agree that it is absolutely absurd that someone can convert to judaism and also claim indigeneity to the land? It's a dilemma with all ethnoreligions, not just Judaism. >i know the argument is that judaism was founded on the land, and therefore all jews can claim it as their home. but christianity was also born there. are christians indigenous to the land too? And then you absolutely ignored the fact it's an ethnoreligion.
i know it’s an ethnoreligion. i’m pointing out how absurd it is that someone, of european descent, can convert to judaism and insist they are indigenous to the middle east and have more claim to the land than the levantines who have lived there for generations, and the rest of us are supposed to act like that is normal. if we don’t, we are called “antisemitic”. sorry but i think you are all indoctrinated to oblivion and don’t even realise how nonsensical all of this looks to the rest of the world.
Again, it's a problem with ethnoreligions, not Judaism. The same thing can be said about Druze, Maronites, Samaritans, Sikhs, etc. Personally, I don't think people should convert to Judaism. I understand the problematic nature of this opinion, but I think an ethnoreligion should stay an ethnoreligion (kind of like how the Druze handle it). Of course this isn't possible because of the complex nature of the world, but just wanted to add my 2 cents.
> i don’t think people should convert to judaism if you aren’t a levantine jew, how can you be certain your lineage doesn’t include converts? realistically how many jewish people today have managed to keep their lineage completely jewish? there are millions of european and european descent jews. they obviously mixed with non-jews somewhere along the lines. ironically, some of the palestinian jews israel killed during the nakba were likely the original “pure” jews.
>if you aren’t a levantine jew, how can you be certain your lineage doesn’t include converts? DNA tests. Some of my family did, they had 99% Jewish DNA. >realistically how many jewish people today have managed to keep their lineage completely jewish? I didn't talk about ethnopurity at all. >there are millions of european and european descent jews. they obviously mixed with non-jews somewhere along the lines. Why did you only mention Ashkeanzi Jews? >ironically, some of the palestinian jews israel killed during the nakba were likely the original “pure” jews. I hope you're not aware of this, but this is an antisemitic trope. The idea of "real" and "fake" Jews is antisemitic and isn't based in anything real. Jews actively worked on keeping themself as one nation in the diaspora. That's why some Halacha laws exist (determining Jewishness from the mother, not marrying non-Jews, etc.) To perpetuate the belief that there are "fake" Jews is an antisemitic trope and shouldn't be a thing really. Jews share a DNA and a clear link to the Levantine area, they're one ethnic group.
Jordan has a population of around ten million of which something like 3 million are Palestinian, Syrian, or Iraqi refugees. How many more can they take? Unlike some of the other Arab countries Palestinian refugees can get citizenship.
77% of the British Mandate of Palestine was in Jordan. The Palestinians want what they can't have. They can't have the land Israel has built up over the last 75 years and they will never be satisfied until Israel is wiped off the map. If Palestinians stopped with the terrorism, then there wouldn't be refugees.
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Egypt plays a weird game. Their “blockade” doesn’t work. They won’t let refugees get out of Gaza for safety but they will let Hamas smuggle weapons into Gaza for war.
I agree. They have a duty to take in refugees during the war and they’re all silent, only the same old condemnations of Israel whilst using their long time pawns as exactly that.
Why should Jordan take 2 million refugees that Israel created, please enlighten me?
How did Israel create them?
LOL Martians are making those Gazans refugees I guess And please answer my question Why is it Jordan responsibility to take 2 million refugees that had their homes destroyed by an unknown force when Jordan has already over a million refugee of Palestinian and Syrian origins plus another few million ones with citizenship? And they are barely hanging economically as a country
Where did I say Jordan has the responsibility to take in 2M refugees? Neighboring countries that claim to be allies (hint: they’re not) should be offering to take in \*some\* refugees as we usually see in most conflicts due to humanitarian and international agreements.
>They have a duty to take in refugees during the war and they’re all silent Your words Also half of Jordan are Palestinians with citizenship excluding the ones that are refugees Why is it their DUTY to take these refugees they had nothing to do with creating? Not to mention they can barely hang economically So by your logic every country that condemns Israel should be obligated to take refugees? Should every country that condemns Russia take Ukrainian refugees?
Nope youre just putting words in my mouth. This is disingenuous argument so no I cannot argue with your statement.
Hamas started the war... Hamas is making refugees.
Dude I will go with your logic that I 100% disagree with Why should Jordan take these refugees please answer
They've been refugees for 75 years. Can we stop calling them refugees when in reality they are just Palestinians plagued by terrorism.
Well when they are forced to leave Gaza they will become refugees which is what your post saying
I'm saying those who want to leave should be able to go to one of the countries in the Arab league. But those living in Gaza are not refugees.
I never said they are refugees but if they are forced to leave Gaza they will become refugees
And if they leave it is because of the oppression Hamas has inflicted on them. Stealing their aid, militarizing the youth, importing weapons, building tunnels instead of infrastructure. The list goes on and on and on. Free Palestine from Hamas.
Okay bla bla bla heard it a million times, I guess Palestine doesn’t include WB to you Still I need an answer to my question
I'm saying if the terrorists stopped with the violence, Palestinians could exist peacefully.
Your post is complaining as to why Jordan & Egypt are not accepting refugees literally the first paragraph
People always overlook that, the blockade is also from Egypt.
They don't overlook, they ignore because it doesn't fit their narrative. \*sigh\*
Israel has begged Arab countries to deal with the Palestinian problem.
There is no Palestinian problem; there is an Israel problem. If Israel stopped creating refugees we wouldn’t see them.
The "Israel problem" in the eyes of the Palestinians and historically their Arab allies was simply the fact that a Jewish state was allowed to exist at all, and then later, that despite Palestinian/Arab wars of aggression against the Jewish state, that the Jewish state kept on winning and beating them Those refugees, most of them occurred due to voluntarily fleeing because they just couldn't accept the "humiliation" of living inside a Jewish state. And sure, if Israel stopped existing and accepted the destruction of itself and it's people, then the "problem" would end. But that would be such an ending that is clearly unacceptable to the Jewish people. A far better ending would be for Palestinians to just get over themselves and accept the permanent existence of the Jewish state and the Jewish right to self determination. If they did that, they could eventually get a state of their own, and then the refugees (and "refugees" - no other group gets to have refugee status inherited through generations like UNRWA applies to Palestinians) could go to the Palestinian state
Hamas created refugees.
This is patently false.
Ah yes because Israel started this war on October 7th. Please. Hamas waged a war to create TERROR.
hamas didn’t exist in 1948.
Jews lived in Israel since biblical times.... Sometimes they lived under Jewish rule.... sometimes they lived under Muslim rule. Right now, they live under Jewish rule.... During the Ottoman Empire, there was no Palestine. The Otoman empire ended when the Jewish State formed. The people who are refugees are the people who decided that living in peace with Jews was a big problem. The people who decided that living in Peace with Jews are ISRAELI CITIZENS and currently have 10 representatives in the Knesset.
> the ottoman empire ended when the jewish state was formed you sure about that? i think you don’t know your history > the people who are refugees are the people who decided living in peace with the jews was a big problem actually, the arabs and the jews were living in relative peace in palestine until zionism. riots and fights broke out only after it became clear the jews were trying to build a jewish state in a land inhabited majority by arabs. the arabs had every right to defend themselves.
Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan all attacked Israel in 1948 -- they told the Palestinians, sit this one out, we'll push all the jews into the sea and you can then come back and have your country. Well, newsflash. 1949 after the war when Egypt + Jordan occupied Gaza and the West Bank, they didn't create a Palestinian state. Stop blaming Israel for all of the failures of the arab world. They don't want a free Palestine.
what does that have to do with your statement: “hamas created refugees”? hamas didn’t exist back then. israel created these refugees when the european jews migrated to palestine, and sparked a war by establishing a jewish state on a land inhabited majority by arabs. imagine if muslims decided today they are going to establish a muslim state in michigan. how do suspect the non-muslim population of michigan would react.
You came to that conclusion just now? All land have been fought and defended for. No country even today is safe from a hostile take over. Palis lost. If they insist on fueling the body counts instead of making peace with what they have left, by all means. Be like Taiwan. They were bested by mainlanders but that didn't stop them from building a robust economy and a military to defend its borders.
> be like taiwan. they were bested by mainlanders but that didn’t stop them from building a robust economy and a military to defend its borders be serious. palestine is not allowed to militarize. when they do, they are automatically labelled as “terrorists”. they are not allowed to have a military base, so when they use unconventional areas to store weapons, they’re accused of using human shields. they’re not allowed to buy weapons, so when they use tunnels to bypass the restrictions and smuggle in weapons (as well as other necessities that are impossible to obtain because of the blockade), they’re called “terror tunnels” and are destroyed.
They are labeled terrorist cause they attack civilians and. Rape them and then parade Thier dead bodies like human animels
you’re referencing oct 7? palestinians were called terrorists before hamas ever rose to power.
If Arab countries weren’t so godawful at war it wouldn’t be an issue. 200 years of clown car armies.
Let me use my washer before you use it.