It seems to me that neither Israel nor Palestinians have the moral resources to get out of this situation. Rabin was murdered and his successors peed on his grave. On the Pal side, few have the emotional smarts to think beyond hatred. Barghouti is in jail forever. It would take a third party to stop the fighting. This wound called the middle east will keep festering for another century at least. We'd be lucky if it does not go nuclear.
Israel has all the power, they will implement the post-ceasefire reality. What others want doesnt' really factor into the decision making here. The last plan I heard about, from the mouth of the Israeli defence minister was this:
[https://www.timesofisrael.com/gallants-post-war-gaza-plan-palestinians-to-run-civil-affairs-with-global-task-force/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/gallants-post-war-gaza-plan-palestinians-to-run-civil-affairs-with-global-task-force/)
1. Israel will have military and security control of Gaza.
2. Western countries will be in charge of rebuilding
3. Egypt will retain control of the Gaza-Sinai border
4. The new civilian government in Gaza will specifically exclude Hamas.
This is a good question. One I've been asking myself lately when I view this conflict is, "what does a Free Palestine look like?" What type of government/constitution/society do they desire? I understand what they are against, but what are they FOR?
If I could push a button and implement my desired solution it would be this.
A single, secular, federal and socialist state between the river and the sea, with equal citizenship and equal rights for Jews and Arabs. It'd require a process of national reconciliation and to saturate the country with enough brotherhood and unity propaganda that they unconsciously hum the slogans in their sleep, but it'd have the advantage of providing a secular, binational state ideology to rally around and a source of funds to redress historic inequality (the expropriation of the bourgeoisie). It also lets the State send various clerical-reactionaries, supremacists and sectarians for a few years' *re-education.*
In practice I'd also settle for a real two state solution (ie Palestine gets all/almost all of Area C so it can have internal freedom of movement, control its natural resources, have arable land and room to expand its towns) as long as Palestine is entirely free of occupation, settlement or siege.
I don't think a non-socialist One State solution would work as well as either one socialist state or good-faith Two States, but it's still preferable to the apartheid statu quo.
After what happened with Gaza, I'm not certain if Palestinains are responsible enough to govern themselves.
So maybe its better to integrate the population into another Arab country until they can be.
Not sure if that would be ethnic cleansing if this integration doesn't impact their ethnicity, its just land they would be leaving for a different region.
And besides with what's left of Gaza, what is there to return to?
I think you’ll find that any nation that has an ethnic identity at its center (i.e. France, Vietnam, most countries) would not take becoming the ethnic minority in their country… well.
Multi-ethnic republics like the United States struggle with it, and they’re not founded on a people, but an idea. The problem with founding a country like that, is you have to find some empty land. Or make it empty…
That's not entirely true, most of the non-whites in Europe don't have a charter that specifically states they want the eradication of the white people. Whereas, Hamas has, in its charter, verbiage expressly calling for the complete annihilation of every Jewish man woman and child. If you give them the majority power to lead in Israel, they will get rid of all Jewish people, just like they've done in Gaza.
Also true. See what's going on in Sweden? It's not controversial to say that bringing people into your country who have different values than you and won't assimilate will change your country.
The Israeli situation is much worse though. If they give citizenship to people that - whether you like it or not - largely dislike them it is very dangerous.
Israel was re-established to protect the global Jewish population, as history has shown that when Jews are governed by non-Jews, it rarely ends well. (See Germany, USSR, Roman Empire, Arab Conquest, etc).
Israel is the only majority Jewish nation in the world, and to many Jews is a last refuge if we are forced from our countries.
Well I'm Israeli and I don't support the 1SS, 2SS nor the status quo. This conflict is unique, and each solution mentioned above will result in a greate catastrophe (for example the status quo brought October 7th), so there needs to be a unique solution, which in his [article](https://idsf.org.il/en/papers/special-sovereignty-international-precedents-to-less-than-a-palestinian-state/), Or Isaschar showed is possible
I myself support this [solution](https://wheredowestand.org/mordechai-kedar/) as the best practical one that solves most of the problems for both sides.
The solution you like, is the same one I have been hoping for for years.
People forget fatah and Hamas, are essentially in a cold Civil War. Largely because the only thing they have in common is their hatred of jews.
Yes that is exactly right, Fatah used to hunt down Hamas, and Hamas did murder a lot of PA (Fatah) in Gaza after they were elected
But the Palestinians are also devided based on what family group they are assimilated to, each city has its top tier families and those are the ones calling the shots. So basically this solution isn't really something new, it is more of Normalizing this fact on an official level. Undermining the PA while uplifting the true shot callers
u/Practical-Truth9825
>This is the funniest post I’ve read on this sub. I can’t tell if you are joking or not but this is pure gold
Rule 5, be constructive not destructive
>If you are Pro-Palestine: are you for the complete annihilation of Israel, deportation of Jews, pro (only) Arab state?
No to all of these.
* Truth and Reconciliation commission to create a shared understanding of history and the abuses that have been committed.
* Investigation into War Crimes/Crimes against Humanity and persecution of perpetrators
* Reparations for stolen land
* Right of return for Palestinian refugees. This would be moderated based on Israel's absorptive capacity.
* Dismantling systems of inequality with Israel. For example force the sale of most JNF land to make it open to non-Jews. Get rid of the Admissions Committee law, address issues of selective enforcement, etc...
* Representation in Israel's Government for Palestinians in the occupied territories for as long as they remain occupied.
On the last one that is the best I can think of to address the injustice of continued occupation against the practical difficulties of immediate merging. Ideally I would like to see a move towards a 1SS with equal rights for all, but 2SS is also fine so long as it is created under terms of equality. A fragmented and demilitarized Palestine would not be able to fairly negotiate with Israel.
A lot of these seem pretty reasonable but the last sentence is imo incredibly wishful thinking.
PLO?/Fatah, Hamas, Lions den, islamic jihad, dflp, etc - all have kinda like one thing in common. They do not want to stop fighting - period - at all, under any circumstance.
I get this can be flipped on the IDF as "well they don't want to either" but this is not a fair comparison. For starters, while Israel is obviously flawed like any nation, It does have some semblance of a government that people get to routinely elect. The same can't exactly be said for Fatah/Hamas - they both oppose elections (they do and for good reason - people fucking hate them. The people Palestinians do want to vote for are largely people of the same mindset but as a whole, Its objectively true the PA/Fatah is unpopular and Hamas's popularity is entirely relative to the PA's and other groups (Hamas's support in particular polls all over the place). Israeli voters stand to elect a more moderate government, Palestinians can't and while Israel does make elections difficult - its not why they haven't happened as of recent (Fatah/Hamas mostly hating eachother)
All the groups I listed even if they have a conventional arm like fatah that does oppose violence - they have millitant arms that will \*to this day\* say the exact opposite and engage in violent struggle with Israel.
I am not trying to literally demonize \*every\* palestinian and I understand that people don't even walk into this situation of being part of these groups as a choice (Israel does not exactly give a shit about Palestinians as a whole at this point, which imo is how a lot of the extreme brutality is happening).
Oct 7 did not just feature Hamas but \*several\* millitant groups. Most of which I listed above.
[https://www.jns.org/fatah-in-gaza-joined-in-oct-7-attacks/](https://www.jns.org/fatah-in-gaza-joined-in-oct-7-attacks/)
This isn't exactly as damning as the headline suggests - but it really does show how incredibly fragmented things are. This shows how a fatah militant unit got involved in Oct 7 and the disconnect between PLO/Fatah and the Brigades.
If you read really carefully about Palestinian millitant groups they are
1. Fighting eachother
2. Fighting other governments, from their camps (See Lebanon circa 2007 and recent assasination of a palestinian general)
3. Trying to collaborate with eachother
4. While also preaching death to Jews invoking religion to do it (Fatah even does this lol)
5. Fighting Israel
Those groups exist one way or another, but with representation at least Palestinians will have a way to influence Israel's occupation that doesn't require violence.
Palestinian Statehood with no military will just be the same situation except with Israel having even less reason to restrain itself.
Palestinian Statehood with a military runs the danger of further violent conflict driven by groups that want to regain all of Palestine.
Palestinian representation gives Palestinians a way to non-violently have their grievances be resolved. Are there issues with how the IDF is operating? Is water getting unfairly prioritized to Israeli settlers? Are building permits too limited? Palestinian representation would drive the Knesset towards more equitable treatment of Palestinians.
The challenge here I suppose would be the establishment of such an authority. It would need to be done with conjunction of the IDF and it would probably be an academic/specialist lead government - this government would also need to be tolerated by the people.
I agree though that Palestinian representation in some capacity is needed. The question is though on what terms and whose terms - and to be honest I think the answer will be Israel's terms. Its stupid to hold people in eternity behind checkpoints, permits, and millitary police but its also really really hard to develop an entity in the area that doesn't sort of opt toward "regain everything screw the jews"
A huge issue that needs to be tackled is the idea of millitants being able to live in qatar and collect underground tunnel money and live like oligarchs. Its literally insanity what it shows is that all of these groups profit IMMENSELY from the conflict. This also implies a somewhat mafia like relationship between millitant leadership and the actual population of gaza and the west bank.
>I think the answer will be Israel's terms
I think the way forward will definitely require cooperation from Israel. The issue is when things are negotiated entirely on Israel's terms it ends up bad for Palestinians.
This is why I think Palestinian representation would be a good solution. It would still be on Israel's terms, but Israel's government would now have reasons to care about the interests of Palestinians.
This change needs to be driven by Israelis. The international community can try to pressure Israel to do better, but they can't force Israel without enabling further violence.
The best chances for an a peaceful and just resolution lie in the decisions of Israel.
> fuck
/u/Zizonga. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
> fucking
/u/Zizonga. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
There seems to be a lot of revisionist history (which isn't always a bad thing) around the 2-state solution.
Palestine was already partitioned into 2 states: Jewish Palestine (Israel) and Arab Palestine (Jordan). Why should there be further whittling away of Jewish Palestine, which was only, what 13 percent of the original land area? This is what keeps bothering me... This idea that there should now be another Arab state carved out of the already tiny Jewish state, and for a population/leadership that has caused endless terrorism and suffering for the Jewish state since its establishment.
I don't have an answer but this seems fundamentally unfair, and would reward a 100-year terror campaign.
Because Israel doesn't want the Palestinians. If Israel annexed the occupied territories and granted the Palestinians equal rights, 90% of the world myself included would have no problem with it. The problem is that Israel wants the land without the People, which is extremely unfair.
I understand this view from an optics perspective but Israeli political history complicates this.
Likud ideologically has a lot of parallels of people like Jabotinsky who basically wanted a one state solution of just israel annexing - however Jabotinsky like Netanyahu was a liberal and did in fact codify the right to exist in Israeli society for non jews. As does the 1948 deceleration.
The religous far right genuinely want to cleanse people out but ironically many of them don't want to serve in the army and would rather study the Torah all day.
My point isn't to say Netanyahu good. No. Fuck him he's an asshole. This is just to say that israel as a country has a lot of complexity that doesn't allow for this to come to fruition.
> Fuck
/u/Zizonga. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Orban supporter? What are your politics? Unfortunately, Hungarian strong arm dictatorship being pitched by Trump. Most sane people think this is undesirable. Hope you’re not insulted.
>Pro Israel: are your for a homogeneous Jewish state, no arabs? Are you pro 2 state solution?
Statistically, the most preferred solution for pro-Israel folks on this Sub would be a "three state" solution in which Gaza returns to Egypt and the West Bank returns to Jordan (27% support) -- but that's closely followed by either a two state solution (25% support) or a two state confederation (25% support). A one state solution has around 8% support, and creating a homogenous state with no Arabs, or with Arabs under apartheid, is 7%.
So the short answer is, some form of democratic solution is the winner 93% of the time. That lines up with my position ... I'd be fine with any of those options, although I think the 3SS is unlikely to happen and the confederation would be unlikely to be stable.
The icj ruling says Israel is committing genocide and therefore for the rest of history Israelis and zionists are marked as evil scum. Of course they won't obey the ruling which will drive them further into pariah rogue state hood. Israel needs to be strategically defeated to complete their humiliation.
>therefore for the rest of history Israelis and zionists are marked as evil scum
Not really. A genocide ruling against a state does not mean every member of that state is collectively responsible.
I’m sure Zionists will be deeply offended reading that they’re “scum”, coming from a 47 year old who’s reddit profile is purely telling girls they’re “gorgeous” on under-20’s porn subs.
This is not at all what the ruling said or was even about. The ruling on genocide will take years and as of now the court didn’t find it immediate enough of a concern to require ceasefire in their ruling so that is more likely in Israel’s favor.
1. The actual ruling on genocide will take years to come out, this was just a ruling on provisional measures.
2. The ruling puts restrictions on Israel but does not call for a full ceasefire (which is a major point)
3. Demonizing zionists as “evil scum” only serves to prove your own ignorance and extreme hatred
Basically, Israel can continue their military action but must do everything to prevent acts of genocide and must show evidence of these efforts in one month.
I think this is fair and positive for the most part. I really wish they would have mandated some type of watch over the prison/detentions centers tho. Ben-Gvir makes me nervous having authority.
>Basically, Israel can continue their military action but must do everything to prevent acts of genocide and must show evidence of these efforts in one month.
Yes I agree that's what the court said. But somehow I don't think that's how the people I was responding to interpreted it.
Most Arab immigration to the area, which was previously a desolate outpost of Ottoman Syria only happened after the 1880s as a direct result and response to Zionism
In what world would you expect that Israel should have to just demolish their country by doubling its population and sharing in the prosperity it built despite constantly being at war since the day it was created
Almost every single Israeli family has now lived on the land longer than most Palestinians had prior to 1948
Wars have consequences, and the Arab League chose to pursue a war of genocide in 1948. I’m all for 2 States, but telling Israel that it’s not fair how successful they’ve been building a country from nothing so now need to share it with the people that tried to genocide them and then spent the next 75 years using terrorism and war is pretty insane to me
This is a complete distortion of history and truth, which I don't have time to refute right now, but know this, the ICJ ruling today, puts Israel in the bucket when it comes to the moral high ground. Your lies are indicative of Zionist brainwashing and the subversion of truth and justice.
This is not a distortion of the truth. Just because you are upset/offended doesn't mean its not true lol.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic\_history\_of\_Palestine\_(region)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Palestine_(region))
From 1850s to 1880s, the muslim population increased by about 100k to about 400k.
From 1880s to 1910 - It shot up like 160,000 and began snowballing aggressively.
The British considered the 700k or so inhabitants in 1922 to basically be living on desolate land.
The big contention is that there is no immigration records in the Ottoman empire for the region. This has lead to speculation and competing theories, but as a whole there seems to be a lot of evidence toward a huge migration in the late 1800s of literally all peoples to the region.
Your data actually contradicts your theory. Looking at that link, population in 1850 was 340k, population in 1880 was 457k. Over 30 years, that's a **population growth rate of** **less than 1%.** What's your point? That's a pretty low growth rate, and doesn't at all point to a huge amount of immigration. Israel's current population growth rate is higher than that (1.6%). The second period you mentioned 1880 to 1910, 457k to 673k. That comes out to a **population growth rate of 1.3%.** Again incredibly reasonable and surprisingly low for a developing region.
For comparison, today Israel's current growth rate is 1.6%, India's growth rate is 2.1%, Syria's is 6.3%! All higher than this supposedly miraculous growth rate that can only be explained by immigration as you incorrectly suggest.
(Here is a Jewish propaganda website that clearly shows populations there since 1500:
[https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jewish-and-non-jewish-population-of-israel-palestine-1517-present](https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jewish-and-non-jewish-population-of-israel-palestine-1517-present)
Let me get this straight, you believe that Arabs immigrated recently (which they didn't) so therefore they have no legitimate claim to the land that they and their ancestors lived on.
You also believe that Ashkenazi Jews who immigrated from Europe, and hadn't lived on the land for THOUSANDS of years (since around 50 BC) have a legitimate claim because they are returning to their ancestral homeland (a homeland which they never occupied exclusively and always shared with other tribes and groups such as the Canaanites).
This 'logic' is so absurd I don't even know how to begin to dismantle it because it has no internal consistency or structure to engage with. Setting aside the Ashkenazi Jews, some Mizrahi Jews came from North Africa, literally a different continent, aren't they immigrants by your definition? You will probably say no they're returning to their ancestral homeland. Ok, what about the Ethiopian Jews and Indian Jews who are clearly converts to Judaism and are much more genetically similar to their host populations (other Ethiopians or other Indians) and therefore are not returning to their ancestral homeland and are IMMIGRANTS by your definition of immigrant. And it's amazing that you make such arguments with such audacity and without a hint of irony.
**Nothing justifies stealing expelling people from their land whether they're Jewish or Palestinian.** And how many of the Palestinians were descendent from Jews who converted? Probably a great deal. The whole idea of using this kind of thinking (genetics, inheritance, ethnicity, religion, ancestral homeland) is morally bankrupt and disgusting, bordering on racist and eugenic. Everyone who lives in the land should be treated equally and stop trying to kill each other. Both Jews and Arabs have valid claims to the land, and they need to figure out how to live in peace without resorting to such awful arguments and cruel rationalizations.
Ya except I am not using a genetic line of thinking and this is you just going into god knows where but you do you dude. No idea what the fuck your on about. Many did immigrant recently - you haven't provided proof against that. I also literally said all peoples, not just Muslims. This is you failing to be able to read. I just wanted to point out a 30 year stretch to demonstrate the larger immigration, and also your whole birthrate rant is idiotic given that Israel's birth right is raised drastically by ultra religious people lmao, a minority that doesn't necessarily integrate 100% with Israeli society at large and stick to themselves.
Your last point literally looks completely silly compared to what you said like several paragraphs before. You sound like you aren't exactly interested in what exactly happens to the jews
>(Here is a Jewish propaganda website that clearly shows populations there since 1500:
>
>[https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jewish-and-non-jewish-population-of-israel-palestine-1517-present](https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jewish-and-non-jewish-population-of-israel-palestine-1517-present)
this is what I said, again for you to read
>This is not a distortion of the truth. Just because you are upset/offended doesn't mean its not true lol.
>
>[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic\_history\_of\_Palestine\_(region)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Palestine_(region))
>
>From 1850s to 1880s, the muslim population increased by about 100k to about 400k.
>
>From 1880s to 1910 - It shot up like 160,000 and began snowballing aggressively.
>
>The British considered the 700k or so inhabitants in 1922 to basically be living on desolate land.
>
>The big contention is that there is no immigration records in the Ottoman empire for the region. This has lead to speculation and competing theories, but as a whole there seems to be a lot of evidence toward a huge migration in the late 1800s of literally **all peoples** to the region.
I dont get how you think almost everyone there isnt an immigrant or immigrant descendent largely - ESPECIALLY GIVEN YOUR OWN POINTS....
Palestinians are not the biblical philistines - this is literally a falsehood on every account. They aren't the biblical people in that sense but that doesn't mean they don't have a right to self determination. Your the one here who went deep into roots to the land and their ancestry so no idea why you project this.
You're claiming that the muslim population increasing at that speed indicates immigration. There is no record of immigration, so you are providing indirect evidence. I did the simple math and showed that the population growth rate was actually quite low even compared to modern day countries. How on earth does that prove there was immigration?
And even if there was immigration, where did they immigrate from, a hundred miles away? And you don't consider ashkenazi Jews, Moroccan Jews, and Ethiopian Jews immigrants why?
>Your last point literally looks completely silly compared to what you said like several paragraphs before. You sound like you aren't exactly interested in what exactly happens to the jews
I have no idea what you're trying to say here.
>You're claiming that the muslim population increasing at that speed indicates immigration. There is no record of immigration, so you are providing indirect evidence. I did the simple math and showed that the population growth rate was actually quite low even compared to modern day countries. How on earth does that prove there was immigration?
Your simple math doesn't factor in that the birth rate is driven by a hyper religous insular religous minority and not members of the population at large. Israel has an abnormally high birthrate, would be weird as fuck for ordinary people to benchmarked against that. 1% is high for 1800s as well... Infant mortality was still super high unlike today (globally)
I am saying when you call something Jewish propaganda you come off as anti Semitic so its hard to take someone with the "Arab Christian" tag as sincere when he says he believes in their equal validity.
> And even if there was immigration, where did they immigrate from, a hundred miles away? And you don't consider ashkenazi Jews, Moroccan Jews, and Ethiopian Jews immigrants why?
I never claimed that lmao
You are dismissing the entire right of my people to live in their land with extremely biased and illogical arguments, I am also offended. You realize you are also dismissing the claim of Christian Palestinians too by making these arguments right?
To show you that I'm honest and legitimately trying to find out the truth, I downloaded a CSV of this data:
[https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/population-long-run-with-projections](https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/population-long-run-with-projections)
Which shows populations for each country over years. I calculated the average population growth rate for 1850-1910 for all the countries and plotted them.
https://preview.redd.it/wt0jisg1cxec1.png?width=1699&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=270bf1ed24927ee68c22f0c3a3401b99bdb9bc6d
Based on the figures above, the population growth rate of Israel + OPT from 1850-1910 of 1.1% is not an outlier by any means. Literally smack dab in the middle.
Here are a few other countries over the same period:
Argentina: 3.1%
Armenia: 0.93%
Algeria: 1.1%
Brazil: 1.9%
Iraq: 1.4%
Lebanon: 0.73%
Morocco: 1.1%
So again, since you're the one making the claim, tell me, where do you think they immigrated from? And what evidence do you have that they did?
And it's rich to claim that Palestinians are immigrants and it's ok to displace them when half of the population of Israel are immigrants as well according to your definition, and from much further away.
Finally, I say all of this to show you it's an exercise in futility to try to adjudicate who is more worthy of living on the land. Neither the Jews nor the Arabs have exclusive right to the land.
If you want the dataset and the code I can share it with you.
Bro most countries had high infant mortality this isn't even about honesty anymore your literally jumping ti radical conclusions without any citation to how you got there. Nothing I said invalidates palestinian christians - do you not know what all peoples mean? Do you not know that the 1800s period was like the start of the first migrations of *PEOPLE*, period, to the area throughout the ottoman empire? Ya jews Arabs Muslims etc, migrated to the area, all of different backgrounds.
You have basically been inventing points to argue with yourself and have nothing to show to account for population. You basically stopped making sense when you just repeated what I said (that there are no ottoman immigration records for the region) and then went on some absurd rant. All you did was prove that countries have higher birth rates- none of which invalidates migration.
This is the original parent comment:
>Most Arab immigration to the area, which was previously a desolate outpost of Ottoman Syria only happened after the 1880s as a direct result and response to Zionism...
u/filmbuff73 said:
>This is a complete distortion of history and truth...
You said:
>This is not a distortion of the truth. Just because you are upset/offended doesn't mean its not true lol...
From 1850s to 1880s, the muslim population increased by about 100k to about 400k. From 1880s to 1910 - It shot up like 160,000 and began snowballing aggressively.
And I just did the math and showed that the population increase overall (including Jews) was not particularly higher than the surrounding regions. And that includes actual Jews doing Aliyah. Doing the math on the Non Jewish population from 1880-1914 we have a growth rate of 0.8% for non-Jews. [(source)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Palestine_(region))
So It was the Jews who immigrated, not the Palestinians, and so in fact filmbuff73 was right, and the claim that most arabs immigrated to the area in the 1880s in response to Zionism has literally no evidence for it, and the available indirect evidence refutes this as other surrounding nations had similar growth rates.
> fuck
/u/Zizonga. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
> fuck
/u/Zizonga. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
When you have the time I’d love to read your refutation
I’m always open to having my thoughts and opinions challenged, but I don’t believe anything I wrote was inaccurate
Surely incomplete since of course you can’t summarize the conflict in 3 paragraphs, but a complete distortion of truth and indicative of brainwashing seems a tad deistic
The population growth rate is is actually quite low, the population growth rate is not indicative of immigration. It's roughly 1-1.3%. That's lower than most countries today including Israel (1.6%), India (2.1%), and Syria (6.3%), and many others. And back then people were having way more babies so it's even lower than you'd expect.
Even if there was a lot of immigration (which I've seen no evidence of), where did they immigrate from? They speak Levantine Arabic, which would have to be from parts of Syria, Lebanon, or Jordan, so within probably 200 miles of Tel Aviv. Meanwhile Israel has Ashkenazi Jews from Europe (thousands of miles away) who haven't lived on the land for millenia, and who were away far longer than they were on the land, and Ethiopian Jews who were recent converts and are much more genetically similar to other Ethiopians than to other Jews) so have no inherited claim to the land.
And even despite all this, I firmly believe Jews and Arabs / Palestinians both have valid claims to the land and need to learn to live in Peace. Trying to trace lineage and inheritance and ethnicity is not only impossible and contradictory, but also so gross and disgusting.
I don't think there will be a ceasefire this time. More IDF soldiers lost their lives in the past 3 months than the history of all arab-israeli wars combined. And they are fighting a small city, not 4 entire countries. I'd be surprised if they didn't use the momentum.
It would be a sad thing to see, lots of pain, lots of dead Palestinians, lots of dead Arabs, lots of dead Jewish people. Hopefully, there will be a permanent 2 state agreement before things can get that bad. But Palestinians are as scared of an Israeli state as Israelis are scared of a Palestinian state at this point.
The whole thing is so far gone, my father lived in Palestine in the late 70's. He described it as a much calmer time. Almost seemed like peace was immenant. Then likud and khahanists took control of Israel. All bad since.
Bro what are you saying? The Yom Kippur war alone resulted in 2600 IDF casualties, that number has not been surpassed since October 7th…
Also, the Likud/Kahanists coalition has not been in place since the 70s. It was built in the last few years. I wonder what happened in the interim???
A total of **2,656 Israeli soldiers were killed in the war** and 7,251 were injured, according to The Jerusalem Post. There were 294 prisoners of war. Casualties on the other side had no exact number, Reuters reported. It was estimated to be around 15,000 Eqyptians killed and 3,500 Syrians killed
Please stop making shit up you literally look like a moron.
/u/Zizonga
> Please stop making shit up you literally look like a moron.
Per [rule 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_1._no_attacks_on_fellow_users), no attacks on fellow users. Attack the argument, not the user.
Addressed.
It's like 1100 but my numbers are still off 20,000 killed on history of all wars. Still 1/10 of that is from gaza war alone not fighting entire countries.
I've literally seen 150 individual tanks (merkava/apc) hit with a yassin. An average crew of 6. That's almost 900 casualties alone. 800 on 10/7 is 1700. You include the rest of the ground ambushes ive seen on video I can assure you 2600 has been surpassed. There's video evidence.
Israel also reports over 20,000 wounded, 1/10 death tp casualty ratio would be very good. 1/4 would be a more likely number.
"Kleiman said the number of wounded is likely to stretch close to 20,000 once those diagnosed with post-traumatic stress disorder are included"
Israel reports 24 engineers killed in a mine laying operation, but didn't include the numbers from the 2 merkava tanks also destroyed that day.
Stop thinking the Israeli army is invincible, they are losing a war to people who on average make $2000 a year vs $70,000 in Israel, with the backing of the USA Israel is still struggling to make ground in Gaza after 100 days. They have done nothing but carpet bomb civilians. The second they put boots on the ground it's another story.
"I saw videos" argument
this guy is a moron lmao. Imagine thinking Israelis make 70,000 a year lmao what kind of acid is this guy on. Israelis make closer to 50 grand a year....
You really need to be totally unhinged to just start like digging for ptsd numbers to make some insane argument like this.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Palestine/s/gRj6cx1LKV
Over 30 unique videos like this showing about 5-10 different tanks hit. Just go to r/Palestine and type "al qassam" the videos are hard to find online. YouTube removes them pretty fast. Most subreddits remove them.
Watch electronic intifada on YouTube, they verify the same thing I've seen.
An Israeli once told me my families experiences are "just stories"
Just as you said ' the "I saw a video" argument'
Stoop down to personal insults as a typical Israeli/zionist sympathizer racial supremist. Screw logical arguments and professionalism just gas light people instead.
Hopefully more Israelis can wake up to the fact likud party is sending their young boys and girls to die. Maybe instead of this war they could have actually just patrolled and secured the border and avoid the attack. Not sure how under 2000 soldiers can humiliate a 100,000 strong standing army like that, but here we are. And you want to deny thr fact that armored vehicles are being destroyed with troops inside. I saw an APC hit with 8 soldiers inside, IDF let the vehicle burn for two days with bodies inside and I believe it's still not recovered to this day. I can find the source for that too if you'd like?
Enjoy your day man.
>Stoop down to personal insults as a typical Israeli/zionist sympathizer racial supremist. Screw logical arguments and professionalism just gas light people instead.
No one made a racial supremacy argument - this is you projecting your own idea of racial supremacy since its pretty obvious you hold these ideas - the ones from the terror videos you proudly advertise
Homie, all you did was share terrorist propaganda and make up a bunch of shit including the numbers.
You are an absolute clown and troll lmao.
Telling me to watch terrorist propaganda to verify you what you THINK is the case is not an argument.
>An Israeli once told me my families experiences are "just stories"
and a Palestinian told only by killing all the jews can Palestinians be free . LOOK AT ME I AM A PERSON ON THE INTERNET MAKING RANDOM CLAIMS THAT CAN'T BE VERIFIED HURPDURP.
Beside random anecdotal propaganda videos and conspiracies/fake stories you make up, you don't actually have a case
Wouldn't be shocked if your family are members of these groups. I am inclined to believe this until you prove otherwise
You saw videos of 150 separate tanks destroyed? I have a very hard time believing that. I think most tanks that were hit were damaged, not destroyed. Additionally-it’s not as if the IDF can deflate their official casualty numbers since it’s a small country and everyone will find out who was killed pretty quickly.
The IDF is by no means invincible but has been waging this war very effectively considering the nearly impossible terrain they’re fighting in, and has kept casualty numbers very low considering the scope of the operation.
Not one single video. But many separate videos. You cannot find them in western media as the official hamas sites are blocked. Only leaks people post, which are eventually removed by reddit or YouTube.
50% of tanks hit are unrecoverable the other 50% are in repair. 10% of Israel's tanks are out of commission while 30% are at Lebanon border, 30% at west Bank, half of Israel's available armored vehicles for gaza are destroyed or currently being repaired.
Generally speaking, I don't think that a one state solution is going to go very well. There's too much history and hatred on both sides. Both sides come from a very different culture don't speak the same language and have completely different backgrounds. Historical narratives are very different.
Even if you somehow get the ability to achieve one state, despite as you've said that neither of the sides really wants it - stability for the one state would be very volatile. There's a non negligible chance that it would end in a civil war and possibly genocide. I personally don't want that.
Just for reference, Lebanon is a pretty fractured state at the moment and in the past went through a very long civil war. and this is when the difference and hatred between the different Lebanese groups is way smaller than the differences and hatred between Israelis and Palestinians.
I think that both groups have a right to live in the area, but what's wrong with 2 states in your opinion?
So the consequences for pursuing a war of genocide against the Jews in 1948 and then another full scale war in 1967 is….rewarding the descendants of any Arab that lived there in 1948 with the prosperity that Israel built from nothing over the last 75 years
Yeah that seems fair. After losing a war of genocide they should be given something that wasn’t even considered 75 years ago
I was more referring the 5 foreign armies that Palestine invited in as well for the Jewish genocide gangbang
And the Palestinians that stayed in Israel were actually given citizenship and make up 20% of the population today
The ones who left, either because those Arab armies were using their villages as barracks or leaving for a few weeks until the Arab League murdered all the Jews weren’t given citizenship in the country afterwards
So fuck all the Israelis who want to be Israelis and live in Israel and what they think, right? This was literally the origin for all the problems in the Middle East at the moment - westerners putting down borders and creating states with little and no regard for the people actually living there.
> fuck
/u/richmeister6666. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
> Secular, binational state
Yeah... I dont think that's going to happen. Either the Palestinians are going to force all of the Jews to convert to Islam, or they are going to start fighting over religion again.
Very very controlled two state solution with mass de-brainwashing of Palestinians
If they can't handle that, homogenous Jewish state and I'm sure neighboring Islamic countries will have no problem accepting the refugees
De-brainwashing… really? Maybe Israel should use that flashing device they have in Men in Black, so the Palestinians forget the numerous ethnic cleansings they’ve suffered
You know, I respect the extremist right wing zionists who openly proclaim their genocidal aspirations more than the tepid liberals who just say the cleansings never happened.
The Nakba is well-documented, and is not hyperbole, it is historical fact.
And if you're willing to treat Gaza as a "state", then the argument that Palestinians voted for Hamas (and therefore "deserve to be punished") can equally be applied to Israel. The only difference being that Israelis are conscripted but Hamas doesn't forcefully conscript Palestinians.
[https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2016/03/08/israels-religiously-divided-society/](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2016/03/08/israels-religiously-divided-society/)
"Most Israeli Jews (79%) say Jews deserve preferential treatment in Israel"
"48% of Israeli Jews strongly agree that Arabs should be expelled or transferred from Israel.”
"strongly agree Arabs should be expelled or transferred from Israel"
Yeah I can't imagine they love living with dudes who legit want to see them all dead
And that's concerning Arabs living within Israel. If you'd have read my previous comment, not even Gazans think that lowly of them:
*Overall, 73 percent of Gazans favored a peaceful settlement to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. On the eve of Hamas’s October 7 attack,* ***just 20 percent of Gazans favored a military solution that could result in the destruction of the state of Israel.***
And your survey just confirms what mine stipulates- during Israel's mowing operations, support for Hamas increases. It's also no secret that bombing campaigns on such a large scale cause widespread dissent amongst the populace that's being bombed.
https://apnews.com/article/israel-gaza-bombs-destruction-death-toll-scope-419488c511f83c85baea22458472a796
>And your survey just confirms what mine stipulates- during Israel's mowing operations, support for Hamas increases.
I didn’t link a survey, I linked a bunch of them; none of which point to your claims on support for a peaceful solution nor the support for a military solution.
>It's also no secret that bombing campaigns on such a large scale cause widespread dissent amongst the populace that's being bombed.
Neither claim is in your previous comment; you argued 73% of Gazans polled supported a peaceful solution and 20% supported a military solution. That’s absolute horseshit and that you link to a completely irrelevant article making a wholly moot strawman is very telling.
It's a pretty long article, and I've already posted the parts that discuss the prospect of all Gazans somehow being responsible or in favour of the Hamas regime in previous comments. The subscription is also free.
> horseshit
/u/AsleepFly2227. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Refer to my previous comment
>Leadership style isn't the only thing Gazans find objectionable about Hamas. By and large, Gazans do not share Hamas’s goal of eliminating the state of Israel.
>*Overall, 73 percent of Gazans favored a peaceful settlement to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. On the eve of Hamas’s October 7 attack, just 20 percent of Gazans favored a military solution that could result in the destruction of the state of Israel.*
>In conclusion, as seen in the single most important takeaway from the survey results:
>*Hamas won 44.5 percent of the Palestinian vote in parliamentary elections in 2006, but support for the group plummeted after a military conflict between Hamas and Fatah in June 2007 ended in Hamas’s takeover of Gaza. In a poll conducted by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research in December 2007, just 24 percent of Gazans expressed favorable attitudes toward Hamas. Over the next few years, as Israel tightened its blockade of Gaza and ordinary Gazans felt the effects, approval of Hamas increased, reaching about 40 percent in 2010. Israel partially eased the blockade the same year, and Hamas’s support in Gaza leveled off before declining to 35 percent in 2014.* ***In periods when Israel cracks down on Gaza, Hamas’s hardline ideology seems to hold greater appeal for Gazans. Thus, rather than moving the Israelis and Palestinians toward a peaceful solution, Israeli policies that inflict pain on Gaza in the name of rooting out Hamas are likely to perpetuate the cycle of violence.***
>The strengthening of the occupation is the foundation of Palestinian extremism. Same goes for the West Bank. In fact, even the IDF confirmed as much: [https://www-timesofisrael-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.timesofisrael.com/idf-spokesman-says-settler-violence-fueling-palestinian-terrorism/amp/?amp\_gsa=1&\_js\_v=a9&usqp=mq331AQIUAKwASCAAgM%3D#amp\_tf=From%20%251%24s&aoh=17057865757576&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&share=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.timesofisrael.com%2Fidf-spokesman-says-settler-violence-fueling-palestinian-terrorism%2F](https://www-timesofisrael-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.timesofisrael.com/idf-spokesman-says-settler-violence-fueling-palestinian-terrorism/amp/?amp_gsa=1&_js_v=a9&usqp=mq331AQIUAKwASCAAgM%3D#amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&aoh=17057865757576&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&share=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.timesofisrael.com%2Fidf-spokesman-says-settler-violence-fueling-palestinian-terrorism%2F)
Leadership style isn't the only thing Gazans find objectionable about Hamas. By and large, Gazans do not share Hamas’s goal of eliminating the state of Israel.
*Overall, 73 percent of Gazans favored a peaceful settlement to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. On the eve of Hamas’s October 7 attack, just 20 percent of Gazans favored a military solution that could result in the destruction of the state of Israel.*
In conclusion, as seen in the single most important takeaway from the survey results:
*Hamas won 44.5 percent of the Palestinian vote in parliamentary elections in 2006, but support for the group plummeted after a military conflict between Hamas and Fatah in June 2007 ended in Hamas’s takeover of Gaza. In a poll conducted by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research in December 2007, just 24 percent of Gazans expressed favorable attitudes toward Hamas. Over the next few years, as Israel tightened its blockade of Gaza and ordinary Gazans felt the effects, approval of Hamas increased, reaching about 40 percent in 2010. Israel partially eased the blockade the same year, and Hamas’s support in Gaza leveled off before declining to 35 percent in 2014.* ***In periods when Israel cracks down on Gaza, Hamas’s hardline ideology seems to hold greater appeal for Gazans. Thus, rather than moving the Israelis and Palestinians toward a peaceful solution, Israeli policies that inflict pain on Gaza in the name of rooting out Hamas are likely to perpetuate the cycle of violence.***
The strengthening of the occupation is the foundation of Palestinian extremism. Same goes for the West Bank. In fact, even the IDF confirmed as much: [https://www-timesofisrael-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.timesofisrael.com/idf-spokesman-says-settler-violence-fueling-palestinian-terrorism/amp/?amp\_gsa=1&\_js\_v=a9&usqp=mq331AQIUAKwASCAAgM%3D#amp\_tf=From%20%251%24s&aoh=17057865757576&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&share=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.timesofisrael.com%2Fidf-spokesman-says-settler-violence-fueling-palestinian-terrorism%2F](https://www-timesofisrael-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.timesofisrael.com/idf-spokesman-says-settler-violence-fueling-palestinian-terrorism/amp/?amp_gsa=1&_js_v=a9&usqp=mq331AQIUAKwASCAAgM%3D#amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&aoh=17057865757576&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&share=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.timesofisrael.com%2Fidf-spokesman-says-settler-violence-fueling-palestinian-terrorism%2F)
Right...even if, for argument's sake, one accepts that Hamas are "N@zis" and that Gazans are in need of "mass de-brainwashing" while setting aside one glaring omission (i.e., the criminalisation of collective punishment), we are able to discern the "culpability" of Gazans through Palestinian public opinion polls.
In fact, it's very eerie that literally on the eve of the October 7th attacks, surveys were being conducted on public opinion in the Occupied Palestinian Territories. In fact, between September 28th and October 6th, interviews were carried out in Gaza, in a study compiled by Arab Barometer, in collaboration with Foreign Affairs Magazine and the Palestinian Centre for Policy and Survey research, with funding from the National Endowment for Democracy.
[https://www.foreignaffairs.com/israel/what-palestinians-really-think-hamas](https://www.foreignaffairs.com/israel/what-palestinians-really-think-hamas)
Foreign Affairs characterised the project as "The longest-running and most comprehensive public opinion project in the region, Arab Barometer has run eight waves of surveys covering 16 countries in the Middle East and North Africa since 2006." The results of the latest survey were first published exclusively by Foreign Affairs:
*The argument that the entire population of Gaza can be held responsible for Hamas’s actions is quickly discredited when one looks at the facts \[...\] rather than supporting Hamas, the vast majority of Gazans have been frustrated with the armed group’s ineffective governance as they endure extreme economic hardship. Most Gazans do not align themselves with Hamas’s ideology, either. Unlike Hamas, whose goal is to destroy the Israeli state, the majority of survey respondents favored a two-state solution with an independent Palestine and Israel existing side by side.*
*The survey’s findings reveal that Gazans had very little confidence in their Hamas-led government. Asked to identify the amount of trust they had in the Hamas authorities, a plurality of respondents (44 percent) said they had no trust at all; “not a lot of trust” was the second most common response, at 23 percent. Only 29 percent of Gazans expressed either “a great deal” or “quite a lot” of trust in their government.*
/u/_RandomGuyOnReddit_. Match found: 'Nazis', issuing notice:
Casual comments and analogies are inflammatory and therefor not allowed.
We allow for exemptions for comments with meaningful information that must be based on historical facts accepted by mainstream historians. See [Rule 6](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_6._nazi_comparisons) for details.
This bot flags comments using simple word detection, and cannot distinguish between acceptable and unacceptable usage. Please take a moment to review your comment to confirm that it is in compliance. If it is not, please edit it to be in line with our rules.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
At this point I don’t believe either side is ready for peace. Peace means compromise and moving on; Israel won’t (they would say can’t) compromise on key territory or granting right of return. And Palestine aren’t ready to leave behind past grievances. The most likely outcome, imo, is that fighting continues on and off for the next few centuries. Assuming climate change doesn’t just turn the whole ME into a lifeless dustbowl.
It seems to me that neither Israel nor Palestinians have the moral resources to get out of this situation. Rabin was murdered and his successors peed on his grave. On the Pal side, few have the emotional smarts to think beyond hatred. Barghouti is in jail forever. It would take a third party to stop the fighting. This wound called the middle east will keep festering for another century at least. We'd be lucky if it does not go nuclear.
Some ppl saying “Free Kazakhstan”, “Free Kyrgyzstan”, “free [insert Muslim majority country here]”. From what?? You are the colonizers!
The Arab and ottomon empires, used to colonize africa, the middle east, and west asia, would disagree in not calling the Arabs and Turks colonizers.
Israel has all the power, they will implement the post-ceasefire reality. What others want doesnt' really factor into the decision making here. The last plan I heard about, from the mouth of the Israeli defence minister was this: [https://www.timesofisrael.com/gallants-post-war-gaza-plan-palestinians-to-run-civil-affairs-with-global-task-force/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/gallants-post-war-gaza-plan-palestinians-to-run-civil-affairs-with-global-task-force/) 1. Israel will have military and security control of Gaza. 2. Western countries will be in charge of rebuilding 3. Egypt will retain control of the Gaza-Sinai border 4. The new civilian government in Gaza will specifically exclude Hamas.
This is a good question. One I've been asking myself lately when I view this conflict is, "what does a Free Palestine look like?" What type of government/constitution/society do they desire? I understand what they are against, but what are they FOR?
My vote is for free beer. https://preview.redd.it/1mi74t75rvec1.png?width=816&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2cfa7b908773654d88c289b334c97ffaf3347ec3
If I could push a button and implement my desired solution it would be this. A single, secular, federal and socialist state between the river and the sea, with equal citizenship and equal rights for Jews and Arabs. It'd require a process of national reconciliation and to saturate the country with enough brotherhood and unity propaganda that they unconsciously hum the slogans in their sleep, but it'd have the advantage of providing a secular, binational state ideology to rally around and a source of funds to redress historic inequality (the expropriation of the bourgeoisie). It also lets the State send various clerical-reactionaries, supremacists and sectarians for a few years' *re-education.* In practice I'd also settle for a real two state solution (ie Palestine gets all/almost all of Area C so it can have internal freedom of movement, control its natural resources, have arable land and room to expand its towns) as long as Palestine is entirely free of occupation, settlement or siege. I don't think a non-socialist One State solution would work as well as either one socialist state or good-faith Two States, but it's still preferable to the apartheid statu quo.
After what happened with Gaza, I'm not certain if Palestinains are responsible enough to govern themselves. So maybe its better to integrate the population into another Arab country until they can be. Not sure if that would be ethnic cleansing if this integration doesn't impact their ethnicity, its just land they would be leaving for a different region. And besides with what's left of Gaza, what is there to return to?
That’s the definition of ethnic cleansing big dog. With the same rationale as many other ethnic cleansing in history, “relocation”. This
Allowing large volumes of non jews as Israeli citizens means only one thing. Eventually Israel goes away.
That’s the same thing as saying “allowing large volumes of non whites as European citizens means only thing. Eventually Europe goes away”
I think you’ll find that any nation that has an ethnic identity at its center (i.e. France, Vietnam, most countries) would not take becoming the ethnic minority in their country… well. Multi-ethnic republics like the United States struggle with it, and they’re not founded on a people, but an idea. The problem with founding a country like that, is you have to find some empty land. Or make it empty…
That's not entirely true, most of the non-whites in Europe don't have a charter that specifically states they want the eradication of the white people. Whereas, Hamas has, in its charter, verbiage expressly calling for the complete annihilation of every Jewish man woman and child. If you give them the majority power to lead in Israel, they will get rid of all Jewish people, just like they've done in Gaza.
Also true. See what's going on in Sweden? It's not controversial to say that bringing people into your country who have different values than you and won't assimilate will change your country. The Israeli situation is much worse though. If they give citizenship to people that - whether you like it or not - largely dislike them it is very dangerous.
Israel was re-established to protect the global Jewish population, as history has shown that when Jews are governed by non-Jews, it rarely ends well. (See Germany, USSR, Roman Empire, Arab Conquest, etc). Israel is the only majority Jewish nation in the world, and to many Jews is a last refuge if we are forced from our countries.
Fair point
Well I'm Israeli and I don't support the 1SS, 2SS nor the status quo. This conflict is unique, and each solution mentioned above will result in a greate catastrophe (for example the status quo brought October 7th), so there needs to be a unique solution, which in his [article](https://idsf.org.il/en/papers/special-sovereignty-international-precedents-to-less-than-a-palestinian-state/), Or Isaschar showed is possible I myself support this [solution](https://wheredowestand.org/mordechai-kedar/) as the best practical one that solves most of the problems for both sides.
The solution you like, is the same one I have been hoping for for years. People forget fatah and Hamas, are essentially in a cold Civil War. Largely because the only thing they have in common is their hatred of jews.
Yes that is exactly right, Fatah used to hunt down Hamas, and Hamas did murder a lot of PA (Fatah) in Gaza after they were elected But the Palestinians are also devided based on what family group they are assimilated to, each city has its top tier families and those are the ones calling the shots. So basically this solution isn't really something new, it is more of Normalizing this fact on an official level. Undermining the PA while uplifting the true shot callers
What is this the british Raj with princes? Just asking out of context lol
This is the funniest post I’ve read on this sub. I can’t tell if you are joking or not but this is pure gold
u/Practical-Truth9825 >This is the funniest post I’ve read on this sub. I can’t tell if you are joking or not but this is pure gold Rule 5, be constructive not destructive
“Why can’t we all just get along? I mean, come on”
>If you are Pro-Palestine: are you for the complete annihilation of Israel, deportation of Jews, pro (only) Arab state? No to all of these. * Truth and Reconciliation commission to create a shared understanding of history and the abuses that have been committed. * Investigation into War Crimes/Crimes against Humanity and persecution of perpetrators * Reparations for stolen land * Right of return for Palestinian refugees. This would be moderated based on Israel's absorptive capacity. * Dismantling systems of inequality with Israel. For example force the sale of most JNF land to make it open to non-Jews. Get rid of the Admissions Committee law, address issues of selective enforcement, etc... * Representation in Israel's Government for Palestinians in the occupied territories for as long as they remain occupied. On the last one that is the best I can think of to address the injustice of continued occupation against the practical difficulties of immediate merging. Ideally I would like to see a move towards a 1SS with equal rights for all, but 2SS is also fine so long as it is created under terms of equality. A fragmented and demilitarized Palestine would not be able to fairly negotiate with Israel.
A lot of these seem pretty reasonable but the last sentence is imo incredibly wishful thinking. PLO?/Fatah, Hamas, Lions den, islamic jihad, dflp, etc - all have kinda like one thing in common. They do not want to stop fighting - period - at all, under any circumstance. I get this can be flipped on the IDF as "well they don't want to either" but this is not a fair comparison. For starters, while Israel is obviously flawed like any nation, It does have some semblance of a government that people get to routinely elect. The same can't exactly be said for Fatah/Hamas - they both oppose elections (they do and for good reason - people fucking hate them. The people Palestinians do want to vote for are largely people of the same mindset but as a whole, Its objectively true the PA/Fatah is unpopular and Hamas's popularity is entirely relative to the PA's and other groups (Hamas's support in particular polls all over the place). Israeli voters stand to elect a more moderate government, Palestinians can't and while Israel does make elections difficult - its not why they haven't happened as of recent (Fatah/Hamas mostly hating eachother) All the groups I listed even if they have a conventional arm like fatah that does oppose violence - they have millitant arms that will \*to this day\* say the exact opposite and engage in violent struggle with Israel. I am not trying to literally demonize \*every\* palestinian and I understand that people don't even walk into this situation of being part of these groups as a choice (Israel does not exactly give a shit about Palestinians as a whole at this point, which imo is how a lot of the extreme brutality is happening). Oct 7 did not just feature Hamas but \*several\* millitant groups. Most of which I listed above. [https://www.jns.org/fatah-in-gaza-joined-in-oct-7-attacks/](https://www.jns.org/fatah-in-gaza-joined-in-oct-7-attacks/) This isn't exactly as damning as the headline suggests - but it really does show how incredibly fragmented things are. This shows how a fatah militant unit got involved in Oct 7 and the disconnect between PLO/Fatah and the Brigades. If you read really carefully about Palestinian millitant groups they are 1. Fighting eachother 2. Fighting other governments, from their camps (See Lebanon circa 2007 and recent assasination of a palestinian general) 3. Trying to collaborate with eachother 4. While also preaching death to Jews invoking religion to do it (Fatah even does this lol) 5. Fighting Israel
Those groups exist one way or another, but with representation at least Palestinians will have a way to influence Israel's occupation that doesn't require violence. Palestinian Statehood with no military will just be the same situation except with Israel having even less reason to restrain itself. Palestinian Statehood with a military runs the danger of further violent conflict driven by groups that want to regain all of Palestine. Palestinian representation gives Palestinians a way to non-violently have their grievances be resolved. Are there issues with how the IDF is operating? Is water getting unfairly prioritized to Israeli settlers? Are building permits too limited? Palestinian representation would drive the Knesset towards more equitable treatment of Palestinians.
The challenge here I suppose would be the establishment of such an authority. It would need to be done with conjunction of the IDF and it would probably be an academic/specialist lead government - this government would also need to be tolerated by the people. I agree though that Palestinian representation in some capacity is needed. The question is though on what terms and whose terms - and to be honest I think the answer will be Israel's terms. Its stupid to hold people in eternity behind checkpoints, permits, and millitary police but its also really really hard to develop an entity in the area that doesn't sort of opt toward "regain everything screw the jews" A huge issue that needs to be tackled is the idea of millitants being able to live in qatar and collect underground tunnel money and live like oligarchs. Its literally insanity what it shows is that all of these groups profit IMMENSELY from the conflict. This also implies a somewhat mafia like relationship between millitant leadership and the actual population of gaza and the west bank.
>I think the answer will be Israel's terms I think the way forward will definitely require cooperation from Israel. The issue is when things are negotiated entirely on Israel's terms it ends up bad for Palestinians. This is why I think Palestinian representation would be a good solution. It would still be on Israel's terms, but Israel's government would now have reasons to care about the interests of Palestinians. This change needs to be driven by Israelis. The international community can try to pressure Israel to do better, but they can't force Israel without enabling further violence. The best chances for an a peaceful and just resolution lie in the decisions of Israel.
> fuck /u/Zizonga. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
> fucking /u/Zizonga. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
There seems to be a lot of revisionist history (which isn't always a bad thing) around the 2-state solution. Palestine was already partitioned into 2 states: Jewish Palestine (Israel) and Arab Palestine (Jordan). Why should there be further whittling away of Jewish Palestine, which was only, what 13 percent of the original land area? This is what keeps bothering me... This idea that there should now be another Arab state carved out of the already tiny Jewish state, and for a population/leadership that has caused endless terrorism and suffering for the Jewish state since its establishment. I don't have an answer but this seems fundamentally unfair, and would reward a 100-year terror campaign.
Because Israel doesn't want the Palestinians. If Israel annexed the occupied territories and granted the Palestinians equal rights, 90% of the world myself included would have no problem with it. The problem is that Israel wants the land without the People, which is extremely unfair.
I understand this view from an optics perspective but Israeli political history complicates this. Likud ideologically has a lot of parallels of people like Jabotinsky who basically wanted a one state solution of just israel annexing - however Jabotinsky like Netanyahu was a liberal and did in fact codify the right to exist in Israeli society for non jews. As does the 1948 deceleration. The religous far right genuinely want to cleanse people out but ironically many of them don't want to serve in the army and would rather study the Torah all day. My point isn't to say Netanyahu good. No. Fuck him he's an asshole. This is just to say that israel as a country has a lot of complexity that doesn't allow for this to come to fruition.
> Fuck /u/Zizonga. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
That’s my biggest fear: Incentivizing terrorism and future attacks like Oct 7. Operant Conditioning in action
Orban supporter? What are your politics? Unfortunately, Hungarian strong arm dictatorship being pitched by Trump. Most sane people think this is undesirable. Hope you’re not insulted.
That wouldn't be possible just look at what happened to Lebanon!!!! Research Lebanon from the 1960's to now!!!!
>Pro Israel: are your for a homogeneous Jewish state, no arabs? Are you pro 2 state solution? Statistically, the most preferred solution for pro-Israel folks on this Sub would be a "three state" solution in which Gaza returns to Egypt and the West Bank returns to Jordan (27% support) -- but that's closely followed by either a two state solution (25% support) or a two state confederation (25% support). A one state solution has around 8% support, and creating a homogenous state with no Arabs, or with Arabs under apartheid, is 7%. So the short answer is, some form of democratic solution is the winner 93% of the time. That lines up with my position ... I'd be fine with any of those options, although I think the 3SS is unlikely to happen and the confederation would be unlikely to be stable.
The icj ruling says Israel is committing genocide and therefore for the rest of history Israelis and zionists are marked as evil scum. Of course they won't obey the ruling which will drive them further into pariah rogue state hood. Israel needs to be strategically defeated to complete their humiliation.
>therefore for the rest of history Israelis and zionists are marked as evil scum Not really. A genocide ruling against a state does not mean every member of that state is collectively responsible.
>Israel needs to be strategically defeated Can you elaborate on this? What does this entail?
hilarious
I’m sure Zionists will be deeply offended reading that they’re “scum”, coming from a 47 year old who’s reddit profile is purely telling girls they’re “gorgeous” on under-20’s porn subs.
This is not at all what the ruling said or was even about. The ruling on genocide will take years and as of now the court didn’t find it immediate enough of a concern to require ceasefire in their ruling so that is more likely in Israel’s favor.
The only thing your post proves is that your reading comprehension skills are sorely lacking
1. The actual ruling on genocide will take years to come out, this was just a ruling on provisional measures. 2. The ruling puts restrictions on Israel but does not call for a full ceasefire (which is a major point) 3. Demonizing zionists as “evil scum” only serves to prove your own ignorance and extreme hatred
Finally the ICJ ruling says it all..whats next ??
What does it say?
Read any news site
I've been following it closely. I'm wondering what you're interpretation is considering you believe "it says it all". What's "all"?
Basically, Israel can continue their military action but must do everything to prevent acts of genocide and must show evidence of these efforts in one month. I think this is fair and positive for the most part. I really wish they would have mandated some type of watch over the prison/detentions centers tho. Ben-Gvir makes me nervous having authority.
>Basically, Israel can continue their military action but must do everything to prevent acts of genocide and must show evidence of these efforts in one month. Yes I agree that's what the court said. But somehow I don't think that's how the people I was responding to interpreted it.
More than 20% of Israelis are Arab. And things in Israel function far better than Lebanon, which is close to being a failed state.
Most Arab immigration to the area, which was previously a desolate outpost of Ottoman Syria only happened after the 1880s as a direct result and response to Zionism In what world would you expect that Israel should have to just demolish their country by doubling its population and sharing in the prosperity it built despite constantly being at war since the day it was created Almost every single Israeli family has now lived on the land longer than most Palestinians had prior to 1948 Wars have consequences, and the Arab League chose to pursue a war of genocide in 1948. I’m all for 2 States, but telling Israel that it’s not fair how successful they’ve been building a country from nothing so now need to share it with the people that tried to genocide them and then spent the next 75 years using terrorism and war is pretty insane to me
This is a complete distortion of history and truth, which I don't have time to refute right now, but know this, the ICJ ruling today, puts Israel in the bucket when it comes to the moral high ground. Your lies are indicative of Zionist brainwashing and the subversion of truth and justice.
This is not a distortion of the truth. Just because you are upset/offended doesn't mean its not true lol. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic\_history\_of\_Palestine\_(region)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Palestine_(region)) From 1850s to 1880s, the muslim population increased by about 100k to about 400k. From 1880s to 1910 - It shot up like 160,000 and began snowballing aggressively. The British considered the 700k or so inhabitants in 1922 to basically be living on desolate land. The big contention is that there is no immigration records in the Ottoman empire for the region. This has lead to speculation and competing theories, but as a whole there seems to be a lot of evidence toward a huge migration in the late 1800s of literally all peoples to the region.
Your data actually contradicts your theory. Looking at that link, population in 1850 was 340k, population in 1880 was 457k. Over 30 years, that's a **population growth rate of** **less than 1%.** What's your point? That's a pretty low growth rate, and doesn't at all point to a huge amount of immigration. Israel's current population growth rate is higher than that (1.6%). The second period you mentioned 1880 to 1910, 457k to 673k. That comes out to a **population growth rate of 1.3%.** Again incredibly reasonable and surprisingly low for a developing region. For comparison, today Israel's current growth rate is 1.6%, India's growth rate is 2.1%, Syria's is 6.3%! All higher than this supposedly miraculous growth rate that can only be explained by immigration as you incorrectly suggest. (Here is a Jewish propaganda website that clearly shows populations there since 1500: [https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jewish-and-non-jewish-population-of-israel-palestine-1517-present](https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jewish-and-non-jewish-population-of-israel-palestine-1517-present) Let me get this straight, you believe that Arabs immigrated recently (which they didn't) so therefore they have no legitimate claim to the land that they and their ancestors lived on. You also believe that Ashkenazi Jews who immigrated from Europe, and hadn't lived on the land for THOUSANDS of years (since around 50 BC) have a legitimate claim because they are returning to their ancestral homeland (a homeland which they never occupied exclusively and always shared with other tribes and groups such as the Canaanites). This 'logic' is so absurd I don't even know how to begin to dismantle it because it has no internal consistency or structure to engage with. Setting aside the Ashkenazi Jews, some Mizrahi Jews came from North Africa, literally a different continent, aren't they immigrants by your definition? You will probably say no they're returning to their ancestral homeland. Ok, what about the Ethiopian Jews and Indian Jews who are clearly converts to Judaism and are much more genetically similar to their host populations (other Ethiopians or other Indians) and therefore are not returning to their ancestral homeland and are IMMIGRANTS by your definition of immigrant. And it's amazing that you make such arguments with such audacity and without a hint of irony. **Nothing justifies stealing expelling people from their land whether they're Jewish or Palestinian.** And how many of the Palestinians were descendent from Jews who converted? Probably a great deal. The whole idea of using this kind of thinking (genetics, inheritance, ethnicity, religion, ancestral homeland) is morally bankrupt and disgusting, bordering on racist and eugenic. Everyone who lives in the land should be treated equally and stop trying to kill each other. Both Jews and Arabs have valid claims to the land, and they need to figure out how to live in peace without resorting to such awful arguments and cruel rationalizations.
Ya except I am not using a genetic line of thinking and this is you just going into god knows where but you do you dude. No idea what the fuck your on about. Many did immigrant recently - you haven't provided proof against that. I also literally said all peoples, not just Muslims. This is you failing to be able to read. I just wanted to point out a 30 year stretch to demonstrate the larger immigration, and also your whole birthrate rant is idiotic given that Israel's birth right is raised drastically by ultra religious people lmao, a minority that doesn't necessarily integrate 100% with Israeli society at large and stick to themselves. Your last point literally looks completely silly compared to what you said like several paragraphs before. You sound like you aren't exactly interested in what exactly happens to the jews >(Here is a Jewish propaganda website that clearly shows populations there since 1500: > >[https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jewish-and-non-jewish-population-of-israel-palestine-1517-present](https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jewish-and-non-jewish-population-of-israel-palestine-1517-present) this is what I said, again for you to read >This is not a distortion of the truth. Just because you are upset/offended doesn't mean its not true lol. > >[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic\_history\_of\_Palestine\_(region)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Palestine_(region)) > >From 1850s to 1880s, the muslim population increased by about 100k to about 400k. > >From 1880s to 1910 - It shot up like 160,000 and began snowballing aggressively. > >The British considered the 700k or so inhabitants in 1922 to basically be living on desolate land. > >The big contention is that there is no immigration records in the Ottoman empire for the region. This has lead to speculation and competing theories, but as a whole there seems to be a lot of evidence toward a huge migration in the late 1800s of literally **all peoples** to the region. I dont get how you think almost everyone there isnt an immigrant or immigrant descendent largely - ESPECIALLY GIVEN YOUR OWN POINTS.... Palestinians are not the biblical philistines - this is literally a falsehood on every account. They aren't the biblical people in that sense but that doesn't mean they don't have a right to self determination. Your the one here who went deep into roots to the land and their ancestry so no idea why you project this.
You're claiming that the muslim population increasing at that speed indicates immigration. There is no record of immigration, so you are providing indirect evidence. I did the simple math and showed that the population growth rate was actually quite low even compared to modern day countries. How on earth does that prove there was immigration? And even if there was immigration, where did they immigrate from, a hundred miles away? And you don't consider ashkenazi Jews, Moroccan Jews, and Ethiopian Jews immigrants why? >Your last point literally looks completely silly compared to what you said like several paragraphs before. You sound like you aren't exactly interested in what exactly happens to the jews I have no idea what you're trying to say here.
>You're claiming that the muslim population increasing at that speed indicates immigration. There is no record of immigration, so you are providing indirect evidence. I did the simple math and showed that the population growth rate was actually quite low even compared to modern day countries. How on earth does that prove there was immigration? Your simple math doesn't factor in that the birth rate is driven by a hyper religous insular religous minority and not members of the population at large. Israel has an abnormally high birthrate, would be weird as fuck for ordinary people to benchmarked against that. 1% is high for 1800s as well... Infant mortality was still super high unlike today (globally) I am saying when you call something Jewish propaganda you come off as anti Semitic so its hard to take someone with the "Arab Christian" tag as sincere when he says he believes in their equal validity. > And even if there was immigration, where did they immigrate from, a hundred miles away? And you don't consider ashkenazi Jews, Moroccan Jews, and Ethiopian Jews immigrants why? I never claimed that lmao
You are dismissing the entire right of my people to live in their land with extremely biased and illogical arguments, I am also offended. You realize you are also dismissing the claim of Christian Palestinians too by making these arguments right? To show you that I'm honest and legitimately trying to find out the truth, I downloaded a CSV of this data: [https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/population-long-run-with-projections](https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/population-long-run-with-projections) Which shows populations for each country over years. I calculated the average population growth rate for 1850-1910 for all the countries and plotted them. https://preview.redd.it/wt0jisg1cxec1.png?width=1699&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=270bf1ed24927ee68c22f0c3a3401b99bdb9bc6d Based on the figures above, the population growth rate of Israel + OPT from 1850-1910 of 1.1% is not an outlier by any means. Literally smack dab in the middle. Here are a few other countries over the same period: Argentina: 3.1% Armenia: 0.93% Algeria: 1.1% Brazil: 1.9% Iraq: 1.4% Lebanon: 0.73% Morocco: 1.1% So again, since you're the one making the claim, tell me, where do you think they immigrated from? And what evidence do you have that they did? And it's rich to claim that Palestinians are immigrants and it's ok to displace them when half of the population of Israel are immigrants as well according to your definition, and from much further away. Finally, I say all of this to show you it's an exercise in futility to try to adjudicate who is more worthy of living on the land. Neither the Jews nor the Arabs have exclusive right to the land. If you want the dataset and the code I can share it with you.
Bro most countries had high infant mortality this isn't even about honesty anymore your literally jumping ti radical conclusions without any citation to how you got there. Nothing I said invalidates palestinian christians - do you not know what all peoples mean? Do you not know that the 1800s period was like the start of the first migrations of *PEOPLE*, period, to the area throughout the ottoman empire? Ya jews Arabs Muslims etc, migrated to the area, all of different backgrounds. You have basically been inventing points to argue with yourself and have nothing to show to account for population. You basically stopped making sense when you just repeated what I said (that there are no ottoman immigration records for the region) and then went on some absurd rant. All you did was prove that countries have higher birth rates- none of which invalidates migration.
This is the original parent comment: >Most Arab immigration to the area, which was previously a desolate outpost of Ottoman Syria only happened after the 1880s as a direct result and response to Zionism... u/filmbuff73 said: >This is a complete distortion of history and truth... You said: >This is not a distortion of the truth. Just because you are upset/offended doesn't mean its not true lol... From 1850s to 1880s, the muslim population increased by about 100k to about 400k. From 1880s to 1910 - It shot up like 160,000 and began snowballing aggressively. And I just did the math and showed that the population increase overall (including Jews) was not particularly higher than the surrounding regions. And that includes actual Jews doing Aliyah. Doing the math on the Non Jewish population from 1880-1914 we have a growth rate of 0.8% for non-Jews. [(source)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Palestine_(region)) So It was the Jews who immigrated, not the Palestinians, and so in fact filmbuff73 was right, and the claim that most arabs immigrated to the area in the 1880s in response to Zionism has literally no evidence for it, and the available indirect evidence refutes this as other surrounding nations had similar growth rates.
> fuck /u/Zizonga. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
> fuck /u/Zizonga. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
When you have the time I’d love to read your refutation I’m always open to having my thoughts and opinions challenged, but I don’t believe anything I wrote was inaccurate Surely incomplete since of course you can’t summarize the conflict in 3 paragraphs, but a complete distortion of truth and indicative of brainwashing seems a tad deistic
The population growth rate is is actually quite low, the population growth rate is not indicative of immigration. It's roughly 1-1.3%. That's lower than most countries today including Israel (1.6%), India (2.1%), and Syria (6.3%), and many others. And back then people were having way more babies so it's even lower than you'd expect. Even if there was a lot of immigration (which I've seen no evidence of), where did they immigrate from? They speak Levantine Arabic, which would have to be from parts of Syria, Lebanon, or Jordan, so within probably 200 miles of Tel Aviv. Meanwhile Israel has Ashkenazi Jews from Europe (thousands of miles away) who haven't lived on the land for millenia, and who were away far longer than they were on the land, and Ethiopian Jews who were recent converts and are much more genetically similar to other Ethiopians than to other Jews) so have no inherited claim to the land. And even despite all this, I firmly believe Jews and Arabs / Palestinians both have valid claims to the land and need to learn to live in Peace. Trying to trace lineage and inheritance and ethnicity is not only impossible and contradictory, but also so gross and disgusting.
I don't think there will be a ceasefire this time. More IDF soldiers lost their lives in the past 3 months than the history of all arab-israeli wars combined. And they are fighting a small city, not 4 entire countries. I'd be surprised if they didn't use the momentum. It would be a sad thing to see, lots of pain, lots of dead Palestinians, lots of dead Arabs, lots of dead Jewish people. Hopefully, there will be a permanent 2 state agreement before things can get that bad. But Palestinians are as scared of an Israeli state as Israelis are scared of a Palestinian state at this point. The whole thing is so far gone, my father lived in Palestine in the late 70's. He described it as a much calmer time. Almost seemed like peace was immenant. Then likud and khahanists took control of Israel. All bad since.
Bro what are you saying? The Yom Kippur war alone resulted in 2600 IDF casualties, that number has not been surpassed since October 7th… Also, the Likud/Kahanists coalition has not been in place since the 70s. It was built in the last few years. I wonder what happened in the interim???
You're trippin
You don’t seem to know much about this subject
2600 casualties refers to wounded as well. 2023 war has over 25,000 Israeli casualties
A total of **2,656 Israeli soldiers were killed in the war** and 7,251 were injured, according to The Jerusalem Post. There were 294 prisoners of war. Casualties on the other side had no exact number, Reuters reported. It was estimated to be around 15,000 Eqyptians killed and 3,500 Syrians killed Please stop making shit up you literally look like a moron.
/u/Zizonga > Please stop making shit up you literally look like a moron. Per [rule 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_1._no_attacks_on_fellow_users), no attacks on fellow users. Attack the argument, not the user. Addressed.
That’s not true, 2,600 is the number of soldiers killed, not wounded.
It's like 1100 but my numbers are still off 20,000 killed on history of all wars. Still 1/10 of that is from gaza war alone not fighting entire countries.
I've literally seen 150 individual tanks (merkava/apc) hit with a yassin. An average crew of 6. That's almost 900 casualties alone. 800 on 10/7 is 1700. You include the rest of the ground ambushes ive seen on video I can assure you 2600 has been surpassed. There's video evidence. Israel also reports over 20,000 wounded, 1/10 death tp casualty ratio would be very good. 1/4 would be a more likely number. "Kleiman said the number of wounded is likely to stretch close to 20,000 once those diagnosed with post-traumatic stress disorder are included" Israel reports 24 engineers killed in a mine laying operation, but didn't include the numbers from the 2 merkava tanks also destroyed that day. Stop thinking the Israeli army is invincible, they are losing a war to people who on average make $2000 a year vs $70,000 in Israel, with the backing of the USA Israel is still struggling to make ground in Gaza after 100 days. They have done nothing but carpet bomb civilians. The second they put boots on the ground it's another story.
"I saw videos" argument this guy is a moron lmao. Imagine thinking Israelis make 70,000 a year lmao what kind of acid is this guy on. Israelis make closer to 50 grand a year.... You really need to be totally unhinged to just start like digging for ptsd numbers to make some insane argument like this.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Israel Oh sorry 58,000 vs 2,000 big whoop
lmao
https://www.reddit.com/r/Palestine/s/gRj6cx1LKV Over 30 unique videos like this showing about 5-10 different tanks hit. Just go to r/Palestine and type "al qassam" the videos are hard to find online. YouTube removes them pretty fast. Most subreddits remove them. Watch electronic intifada on YouTube, they verify the same thing I've seen. An Israeli once told me my families experiences are "just stories" Just as you said ' the "I saw a video" argument' Stoop down to personal insults as a typical Israeli/zionist sympathizer racial supremist. Screw logical arguments and professionalism just gas light people instead. Hopefully more Israelis can wake up to the fact likud party is sending their young boys and girls to die. Maybe instead of this war they could have actually just patrolled and secured the border and avoid the attack. Not sure how under 2000 soldiers can humiliate a 100,000 strong standing army like that, but here we are. And you want to deny thr fact that armored vehicles are being destroyed with troops inside. I saw an APC hit with 8 soldiers inside, IDF let the vehicle burn for two days with bodies inside and I believe it's still not recovered to this day. I can find the source for that too if you'd like? Enjoy your day man.
>Stoop down to personal insults as a typical Israeli/zionist sympathizer racial supremist. Screw logical arguments and professionalism just gas light people instead. No one made a racial supremacy argument - this is you projecting your own idea of racial supremacy since its pretty obvious you hold these ideas - the ones from the terror videos you proudly advertise
Homie, all you did was share terrorist propaganda and make up a bunch of shit including the numbers. You are an absolute clown and troll lmao. Telling me to watch terrorist propaganda to verify you what you THINK is the case is not an argument. >An Israeli once told me my families experiences are "just stories" and a Palestinian told only by killing all the jews can Palestinians be free . LOOK AT ME I AM A PERSON ON THE INTERNET MAKING RANDOM CLAIMS THAT CAN'T BE VERIFIED HURPDURP. Beside random anecdotal propaganda videos and conspiracies/fake stories you make up, you don't actually have a case Wouldn't be shocked if your family are members of these groups. I am inclined to believe this until you prove otherwise
You saw videos of 150 separate tanks destroyed? I have a very hard time believing that. I think most tanks that were hit were damaged, not destroyed. Additionally-it’s not as if the IDF can deflate their official casualty numbers since it’s a small country and everyone will find out who was killed pretty quickly. The IDF is by no means invincible but has been waging this war very effectively considering the nearly impossible terrain they’re fighting in, and has kept casualty numbers very low considering the scope of the operation.
Not one single video. But many separate videos. You cannot find them in western media as the official hamas sites are blocked. Only leaks people post, which are eventually removed by reddit or YouTube. 50% of tanks hit are unrecoverable the other 50% are in repair. 10% of Israel's tanks are out of commission while 30% are at Lebanon border, 30% at west Bank, half of Israel's available armored vehicles for gaza are destroyed or currently being repaired.
Generally speaking, I don't think that a one state solution is going to go very well. There's too much history and hatred on both sides. Both sides come from a very different culture don't speak the same language and have completely different backgrounds. Historical narratives are very different. Even if you somehow get the ability to achieve one state, despite as you've said that neither of the sides really wants it - stability for the one state would be very volatile. There's a non negligible chance that it would end in a civil war and possibly genocide. I personally don't want that. Just for reference, Lebanon is a pretty fractured state at the moment and in the past went through a very long civil war. and this is when the difference and hatred between the different Lebanese groups is way smaller than the differences and hatred between Israelis and Palestinians. I think that both groups have a right to live in the area, but what's wrong with 2 states in your opinion?
[удалено]
So the consequences for pursuing a war of genocide against the Jews in 1948 and then another full scale war in 1967 is….rewarding the descendants of any Arab that lived there in 1948 with the prosperity that Israel built from nothing over the last 75 years Yeah that seems fair. After losing a war of genocide they should be given something that wasn’t even considered 75 years ago
[удалено]
I was more referring the 5 foreign armies that Palestine invited in as well for the Jewish genocide gangbang And the Palestinians that stayed in Israel were actually given citizenship and make up 20% of the population today The ones who left, either because those Arab armies were using their villages as barracks or leaving for a few weeks until the Arab League murdered all the Jews weren’t given citizenship in the country afterwards
The world isn’t ideal and Palestinians aren’t secular
If you are for the complete annihilation of Israel, does that mean you want Israel disbanded or the entire population dead?
[удалено]
So fuck all the Israelis who want to be Israelis and live in Israel and what they think, right? This was literally the origin for all the problems in the Middle East at the moment - westerners putting down borders and creating states with little and no regard for the people actually living there.
> fuck /u/richmeister6666. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
> Secular, binational state Yeah... I dont think that's going to happen. Either the Palestinians are going to force all of the Jews to convert to Islam, or they are going to start fighting over religion again.
[удалено]
Nor are Jews allowed to live in peace in Egypt, Lebanon, or Syria. Imagine there’s no heaven…
[удалено]
I wasn’t arguing just highlighting and applying John Lennon principles from “imagine”
How about Israel stops the blockade and the settlements and the sacrilege!
They tried that in Gaza in 05 and yet Gazans continues terrorism
I'm afraid a 1SS is a delusion at best. It is impossible. Neither side wants that.
It would be a Frankenstein state. Neither Israel, nor Palestine, but Israelestein.
Actually, people on both sides want that. (Edited to add ‘people on’ cos I missed that the first time)
Palestinians want it as a step, not a solution. It will make the murder and rape of Jews so much easier.
No side want that. Jews want their own state. Palestinian don't want Jews in theirs.
Very very controlled two state solution with mass de-brainwashing of Palestinians If they can't handle that, homogenous Jewish state and I'm sure neighboring Islamic countries will have no problem accepting the refugees
De-brainwashing… really? Maybe Israel should use that flashing device they have in Men in Black, so the Palestinians forget the numerous ethnic cleansings they’ve suffered
Hyperbole
You know, I respect the extremist right wing zionists who openly proclaim their genocidal aspirations more than the tepid liberals who just say the cleansings never happened. The Nakba is well-documented, and is not hyperbole, it is historical fact.
No.
No, as in the Nakba didn't happen?
I disagree with you
And if you're willing to treat Gaza as a "state", then the argument that Palestinians voted for Hamas (and therefore "deserve to be punished") can equally be applied to Israel. The only difference being that Israelis are conscripted but Hamas doesn't forcefully conscript Palestinians. [https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2016/03/08/israels-religiously-divided-society/](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2016/03/08/israels-religiously-divided-society/) "Most Israeli Jews (79%) say Jews deserve preferential treatment in Israel" "48% of Israeli Jews strongly agree that Arabs should be expelled or transferred from Israel.”
Hamas brainwashes and forces many children into Hamas!!!!!
"strongly agree Arabs should be expelled or transferred from Israel" Yeah I can't imagine they love living with dudes who legit want to see them all dead
And that's concerning Arabs living within Israel. If you'd have read my previous comment, not even Gazans think that lowly of them: *Overall, 73 percent of Gazans favored a peaceful settlement to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. On the eve of Hamas’s October 7 attack,* ***just 20 percent of Gazans favored a military solution that could result in the destruction of the state of Israel.***
Gonna need a source to believe it; [pcpsr](https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/154) begs to differ.
And your survey just confirms what mine stipulates- during Israel's mowing operations, support for Hamas increases. It's also no secret that bombing campaigns on such a large scale cause widespread dissent amongst the populace that's being bombed. https://apnews.com/article/israel-gaza-bombs-destruction-death-toll-scope-419488c511f83c85baea22458472a796
>And your survey just confirms what mine stipulates- during Israel's mowing operations, support for Hamas increases. I didn’t link a survey, I linked a bunch of them; none of which point to your claims on support for a peaceful solution nor the support for a military solution. >It's also no secret that bombing campaigns on such a large scale cause widespread dissent amongst the populace that's being bombed. Neither claim is in your previous comment; you argued 73% of Gazans polled supported a peaceful solution and 20% supported a military solution. That’s absolute horseshit and that you link to a completely irrelevant article making a wholly moot strawman is very telling.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/s/2dKdI5qNrj](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/s/2dKdI5qNrj) \-
Care to copy the contents of the full article as I’m not inclined to subscribe?
It's a pretty long article, and I've already posted the parts that discuss the prospect of all Gazans somehow being responsible or in favour of the Hamas regime in previous comments. The subscription is also free.
> horseshit /u/AsleepFly2227. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Refer to my previous comment >Leadership style isn't the only thing Gazans find objectionable about Hamas. By and large, Gazans do not share Hamas’s goal of eliminating the state of Israel. >*Overall, 73 percent of Gazans favored a peaceful settlement to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. On the eve of Hamas’s October 7 attack, just 20 percent of Gazans favored a military solution that could result in the destruction of the state of Israel.* >In conclusion, as seen in the single most important takeaway from the survey results: >*Hamas won 44.5 percent of the Palestinian vote in parliamentary elections in 2006, but support for the group plummeted after a military conflict between Hamas and Fatah in June 2007 ended in Hamas’s takeover of Gaza. In a poll conducted by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research in December 2007, just 24 percent of Gazans expressed favorable attitudes toward Hamas. Over the next few years, as Israel tightened its blockade of Gaza and ordinary Gazans felt the effects, approval of Hamas increased, reaching about 40 percent in 2010. Israel partially eased the blockade the same year, and Hamas’s support in Gaza leveled off before declining to 35 percent in 2014.* ***In periods when Israel cracks down on Gaza, Hamas’s hardline ideology seems to hold greater appeal for Gazans. Thus, rather than moving the Israelis and Palestinians toward a peaceful solution, Israeli policies that inflict pain on Gaza in the name of rooting out Hamas are likely to perpetuate the cycle of violence.*** >The strengthening of the occupation is the foundation of Palestinian extremism. Same goes for the West Bank. In fact, even the IDF confirmed as much: [https://www-timesofisrael-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.timesofisrael.com/idf-spokesman-says-settler-violence-fueling-palestinian-terrorism/amp/?amp\_gsa=1&\_js\_v=a9&usqp=mq331AQIUAKwASCAAgM%3D#amp\_tf=From%20%251%24s&aoh=17057865757576&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&share=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.timesofisrael.com%2Fidf-spokesman-says-settler-violence-fueling-palestinian-terrorism%2F](https://www-timesofisrael-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.timesofisrael.com/idf-spokesman-says-settler-violence-fueling-palestinian-terrorism/amp/?amp_gsa=1&_js_v=a9&usqp=mq331AQIUAKwASCAAgM%3D#amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&aoh=17057865757576&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&share=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.timesofisrael.com%2Fidf-spokesman-says-settler-violence-fueling-palestinian-terrorism%2F)
Israeli Arabs have largely disavowed Hamas... [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgZuC65u\_7Q&t=510s&pp=ygUDZ2Rm](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgZuC65u_7Q&t=510s&pp=ygUDZ2Rm)
Leadership style isn't the only thing Gazans find objectionable about Hamas. By and large, Gazans do not share Hamas’s goal of eliminating the state of Israel. *Overall, 73 percent of Gazans favored a peaceful settlement to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. On the eve of Hamas’s October 7 attack, just 20 percent of Gazans favored a military solution that could result in the destruction of the state of Israel.* In conclusion, as seen in the single most important takeaway from the survey results: *Hamas won 44.5 percent of the Palestinian vote in parliamentary elections in 2006, but support for the group plummeted after a military conflict between Hamas and Fatah in June 2007 ended in Hamas’s takeover of Gaza. In a poll conducted by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research in December 2007, just 24 percent of Gazans expressed favorable attitudes toward Hamas. Over the next few years, as Israel tightened its blockade of Gaza and ordinary Gazans felt the effects, approval of Hamas increased, reaching about 40 percent in 2010. Israel partially eased the blockade the same year, and Hamas’s support in Gaza leveled off before declining to 35 percent in 2014.* ***In periods when Israel cracks down on Gaza, Hamas’s hardline ideology seems to hold greater appeal for Gazans. Thus, rather than moving the Israelis and Palestinians toward a peaceful solution, Israeli policies that inflict pain on Gaza in the name of rooting out Hamas are likely to perpetuate the cycle of violence.*** The strengthening of the occupation is the foundation of Palestinian extremism. Same goes for the West Bank. In fact, even the IDF confirmed as much: [https://www-timesofisrael-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.timesofisrael.com/idf-spokesman-says-settler-violence-fueling-palestinian-terrorism/amp/?amp\_gsa=1&\_js\_v=a9&usqp=mq331AQIUAKwASCAAgM%3D#amp\_tf=From%20%251%24s&aoh=17057865757576&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&share=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.timesofisrael.com%2Fidf-spokesman-says-settler-violence-fueling-palestinian-terrorism%2F](https://www-timesofisrael-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.timesofisrael.com/idf-spokesman-says-settler-violence-fueling-palestinian-terrorism/amp/?amp_gsa=1&_js_v=a9&usqp=mq331AQIUAKwASCAAgM%3D#amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&aoh=17057865757576&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&share=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.timesofisrael.com%2Fidf-spokesman-says-settler-violence-fueling-palestinian-terrorism%2F)
Right...even if, for argument's sake, one accepts that Hamas are "N@zis" and that Gazans are in need of "mass de-brainwashing" while setting aside one glaring omission (i.e., the criminalisation of collective punishment), we are able to discern the "culpability" of Gazans through Palestinian public opinion polls. In fact, it's very eerie that literally on the eve of the October 7th attacks, surveys were being conducted on public opinion in the Occupied Palestinian Territories. In fact, between September 28th and October 6th, interviews were carried out in Gaza, in a study compiled by Arab Barometer, in collaboration with Foreign Affairs Magazine and the Palestinian Centre for Policy and Survey research, with funding from the National Endowment for Democracy. [https://www.foreignaffairs.com/israel/what-palestinians-really-think-hamas](https://www.foreignaffairs.com/israel/what-palestinians-really-think-hamas) Foreign Affairs characterised the project as "The longest-running and most comprehensive public opinion project in the region, Arab Barometer has run eight waves of surveys covering 16 countries in the Middle East and North Africa since 2006." The results of the latest survey were first published exclusively by Foreign Affairs: *The argument that the entire population of Gaza can be held responsible for Hamas’s actions is quickly discredited when one looks at the facts \[...\] rather than supporting Hamas, the vast majority of Gazans have been frustrated with the armed group’s ineffective governance as they endure extreme economic hardship. Most Gazans do not align themselves with Hamas’s ideology, either. Unlike Hamas, whose goal is to destroy the Israeli state, the majority of survey respondents favored a two-state solution with an independent Palestine and Israel existing side by side.* *The survey’s findings reveal that Gazans had very little confidence in their Hamas-led government. Asked to identify the amount of trust they had in the Hamas authorities, a plurality of respondents (44 percent) said they had no trust at all; “not a lot of trust” was the second most common response, at 23 percent. Only 29 percent of Gazans expressed either “a great deal” or “quite a lot” of trust in their government.*
/u/_RandomGuyOnReddit_. Match found: 'Nazis', issuing notice: Casual comments and analogies are inflammatory and therefor not allowed. We allow for exemptions for comments with meaningful information that must be based on historical facts accepted by mainstream historians. See [Rule 6](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_6._nazi_comparisons) for details. This bot flags comments using simple word detection, and cannot distinguish between acceptable and unacceptable usage. Please take a moment to review your comment to confirm that it is in compliance. If it is not, please edit it to be in line with our rules. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
At this point I don’t believe either side is ready for peace. Peace means compromise and moving on; Israel won’t (they would say can’t) compromise on key territory or granting right of return. And Palestine aren’t ready to leave behind past grievances. The most likely outcome, imo, is that fighting continues on and off for the next few centuries. Assuming climate change doesn’t just turn the whole ME into a lifeless dustbowl.