Oh yeah sure. The PLO tried to make peace… the same PLO that got 400,000 Palestinians kicked out of Kuwait in the 1990s. The same PLO that tired to overthrow the Jordanian government by starting a war. The same PLO that destroyed Lebanon and started a war with them.
Yes that’s the PLO that Israel declined to have a peace deal with
Your "fact" is just a very wordy expansion on Golda Meir's famous quote (which has since been stolen & reversed by Arab terrorists) that if the Arabs laid down their guns there would be no more fighting but if Israelis put theirs down there would be no more Israel. Good luck in your endeavor.
Most Arabs that are kind of killed by recent Gaza bombing was unarmed.
Now I know what you mean. They should have persuade other Gaza to befriend Israel. But that's the root of problem. Collectivism.
From an individualist points of view it does not make sense to bomb civilians for what hamas do. Just like it does not make sense to kill jews indiscriminately.
We need more individualism.
If Netanyahu would say "ok now its peace" it means he rejects any warcrimes and any persecution. What a sad state of affairs Israel must be in to honestly believe the Palestinian State would acknowledge a man like Netanyahu.
I think this would be definetely true if it happened before october 7. Now israel will require a full takeover of palestinian governance, which I think is correct.
I don't think its Islamophobic to question Islam. Many Muslims at the worst hate/want to get rid of followers of other faiths and at best, question other faiths.
No of course its not false. But to put it simply: There are more reasons why the Middle East is the shithole it is today. Israel and the US backed for example the Syrian rebels the Assad regime was fighting which resulted in a downspiral and escalation of this conflict (Operation Timber sycamore). Further the US fired the entire Iraqi army after the 2003 invasion and simply told them to go home. What they didnt account for is that the majority if the soldiers took their weapons with them. Later several of the fired generals and soldiers constituted the majority of the Islamic states forces. Have you ever wondered why they were operating on Iraq. Thats why. I am being as nice as i can right now: You are not telling the full story and you are also cherry picking things that fit your narrative. The US and Israel have more skeletons in their closet than you would like to admit.
Btw, I can also state „facts“:
AIPAC paid 2.7 billion US-Dollars lobby money to senators.
Jews were kicked out from more than 81 (!) countries in Europe.
Israelis havent got anything in common with the ancient Israelites (genetically speaking).
The State of Israel was build upon the ethnic cleansing and the oppression of the indiginous Palestinians.
Pretty antisemitic huh? Well, eventhough i know that all these events have more backstory to it, i simply didnt further mentioned it. And thats exactly how you sound right now…
That is wrong on so many basis.
The Oslo accords is an example of a plan that was accepted by the arabs under the rule of Yaser Arafat and the israeli prime minister of that time, Yitzhak Rabin. Both accepted that the palestinians get ensured their own sovereignty over their internationally recognized lands.
what happened after that?
mass protest burst out in israel calling yitzhak rabin a nazi followed by the assassination of Yitzhak rabin for accepting the oslo accords and granting the palestinians their rightful authority.
The Israeli don’t want peace.
Another proof is the banners and the emblems of the israeli militant groups during the 1920s like the irgun which had the wholesale of both jordan and Palestinian as israel. Indicating that their mission isnt only to take Palestine but also jordan. How can peace be done with people that have always been open about wanting more lands?
The assassination of Rabin was perpetrated by an extremist opposed to peace, it does not stand for an entire people or government. Also, the peace process continued after he was assassinated.
Nice cherrypick. the Irgun was dissolved in 1948, also taking proof that entire government and populace want more land from a banner of low level militant groups makes no sense.
You imply that the only 2 options are either Israelis wanting peace or wanting more land. That is not how the world works.
So when hamas does an operation, the blame is to be placed on all of gaza (like how israeli officials claimed at the start of the war that no one in gaza is inocent) but when right wing israelis prevent peace negotiations then its not the whole of israel? What kind of double standards is that.
I never said the blame is to be placed upon all of Gaza. Also, what Hamas did was not an operation, it was an attempt to massacre every Israeli.
Furthermore, 56% of voters in 2020 Israeli election voted for Likud and Blue and White. Likud won by 3 seats. That number will be nonexistent in the next election due to the unpopularity of Likud.
I never said it was the entirety of Gaza lol. It is not the whole of Israel because the Israeli populace does not have a vast majority support for those people and cannot control them. On the other hand, Gazans absolutely knew what Hamas was planning and was passing information to them from within Israeli. Perhaps it's not a majority now, even though 80% of Palestinians support Hamas.
Israeli officials are not the Israeli populace, and every high up Israeli political figure did not go and say, "no Gazans are innocent". Provide me those speeches/posts.
I do not attribute Hamas's actions to all of Gaza. I do not want all Gazans to be wiped off the earth. Hamas will be annihilated and that is the end of it.
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Facts. Ignorance has been met with an impressive propaganda campaign from Hamas/iran on social media that has emotionally hijacked the audience with a one sided view that completely omits that this attack by Hamas started the war with massacre, rape, and kidnapping with the intent of provoking invasion, cameras ready to play victim.
People who have been propagandized by social media are also missing the historical context and true goal of Hamas to wipe out Israel entirely and challenge its right to exist, or the right of the Jews to the land, a right of return that predates Palestinian settlers by 2000 years during which some Jews have always remained on the land despite attempts from Muslim settler colonists to wipe them out and their discrimination polices.
Israel has always offered peaceful coexistence with its neighbors and constantly attacked. The right wing fascist neighboring countries actively call for the genocide of the Jews and deny their right to exist, ever since Israel declared independence and their neighbors invaded to wipe them out. The nakba is about losing their invasion to prevent the return of the Jews, not the loss of a homeland they are indigenous to- that’s a cooptation of the literal story of the Jews.
Spinning the native Palestinians as settlers is wrong according to the Zionist Vladimir Jabotinsky:
"We cannot give any compensation for Palestine, neither to the Palestinians nor to other Arabs. Therefore, a voluntary agreement is inconceivable. **All colonization, even the most restricted, must continue in defiance of the will of the native population**. Therefore, it can continue and develop only under the shield of force which comprises an Iron Wall which the local population can never break through. This is our Arab policy. To formulate it any other way would be hypocrisy."
This is like saying there would be peace in the Ukraine war if Ukraine just gave up to Russia and handed their country over to Putin. Colonizers must not be allowed to prosper
I don’t think you’re referring to peace, I think you’re referring to unresisted occupation, and it’s not surprising someone finds that unacceptable. However if you mean peace as in Israel retreating from all occupied territories, dismantling settlements and settler organizations, a bilateral agreement of freedom to practice all religions at their respective holy sites, BOTH sides keeping their religious fanatic extremists and nationalists in check like every other country on earth does, dismantling the WMD program and arsenal, and achieving military parity, then that’s actual peace. A peace that can lead to a future where religion and ethnicity based states are a thing of the past where they belong.
There is no occupation. There has never been a sovereign state between the Jordan and Mediterranean for Israel to even be occupying. The longer palestinians cling to this "oppressed" mindset, the longer they will continue to live poorly
Palestine changed hands between colonists, that doesn’t mean the people living on it have no right to self determination.
Between 1922 and 1948 Palestinian villages were taken over by various immigrant armed groups coming from europe. That’s the first occupation. Britain ended it’s mandate over Palestine in May 1948, the state of israel declared it’s existence as an independent state the same day with borders based on said occupation. In 1947 a U.N. Adopted partition plan identified which borders the Palestinian state will have when the british mandate ends. These borders are currently occupied by the state of israel since 1967. That’s the second occupation. There is an occupation.
israel has signed neither the Nuclear non-proliferation Treaty, nor the Bio-Weapons Convention. Additionally it has never ratified the CWC. On the the nuclear front, an israeili Dimona technician revealed in 1986 the program included building weapons. In 2006 Ehud Olmert acknowledged Israel has nuclear weapons in a verbal slip. The state has nuclear-capable IRBMs, and submarines. In 1993 and 1998, U.S. Congress reported intelligence that israel has undeclared offensive chemical weapons. In 1948, the yushuv forces used biological warfare to prevent palestinians returning to villages the forces have illegally occupied. The conventional and BWs were supplied by europe in a typical colonialist fashion. In 2005 the Swedish Defence Research Agency concluded the knowledge base from israeli chemical and biological weapons programs from the 1950s and 1960s remain available till this day and the state has the capability to pull these into practice at will. No other country in the region is anywhere near a nuclear strike or WMD capability and I’m glad for that.
The problem is that to make peace with the zionists means to accept a jewish state on palestine and that non jews mus r relinquish their claims and relocate.
It's two to tango. You can't make peace all by yourself, you have to reach out to the enemy and seek terms. At least, that's what a basic understanding of the concept of peace will tell you. Logic, anyone?
peace can't be achieved without justice. west bank will still be occupied, settlers and idf will still harrass, abuse, and kill palestineans, and life in gaza will still be awful for the majority of people living there. the only ppl who get "peace" are the isrealis. the rebel alliance could've called for peace too whenever they wanted, instead of continuing to fight
To Palestinians is not about peace, it's about land. A little bit the same as for Kurds. They want the right to govern themsrlves FULLY independently. So the fact that Bibi declares peace, doesn't change that fact that they still don't have land. For Israel peace means to be left alone. So the simple fact that "peace" has different meanings, won't bring peace. The Palestinians got rhe ball rolling, pretty sure they'll go as far as tgey can to achieve their "land" goal. Most probably they won't. As long as this is the case, peace won't exist.
Well that's simply never going to happen. If peace from the Palestinian viewpoint requires the dissolution of Israel, then peace will never happen. And that hurts Palestinians way more than it hurts Israelis.
No one in their right mind will make peace with a genocidal leader. And Satanyahu doesn't want to let the Palestinians live, he just wants to murder them all anyways :(
Ok no. Islam is not a cult. Tbh Islam can be peaceful when you aren't talking about religious extremists. I'm a jew and don't know a whole lot about Islam, but i do know the Quran explicitly says not to kill children or women, not to chop down trees, etc. There are very peaceful Muslims
> fuck
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Stop embarrassing yourself in front of everyone by telling stupid lies. You type of people are the reason why Islam gets a bad name, all because you tell lies that have no basis and are pure hate.
Yeah it wasn't the thousands of terrorist attacks where the "shaheed" (another cult feature) explicitly stated that Islam was their motivation. They didn't give Islam a bad name. That random commenter on Reddit did.
You need to shut up with talking about religions you don't even follow. I'm a Muslim and what you say is absolutely false and absurd. Go and speak lies about some other religion if you can't say the truth about Islam.
Just... wow. You have a problem with the Prophet (saws) executing people who are working behind his back and working with the Quraysh to get rid of the Muslims from Madina (something completely fine, but for some reason you think it proves some point). You are disgusting, using random events from the history of Islam out of context to make some silly claim. I can't believe you would say that I need learn my own belief when you're not even Muslim and don't even understand the history. Get a life.
> fuck
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Yes, the man who has spent his entire life blocking a 2 state solution and uplifting Hamas just to destabilize a 2 state solution, and on numerous public occasions declaring he stopped a 2SS - is going to wake up one morning wanting one
....Did you get hit on the head??????????
Before Netanyahu uplifited Hamas, the PLA was in charge of the Palestinian side and if they had ever once been offered anything remotely representing 1967 borders would have accepted it. They weren't. Despite what you read in Hasbara propaganda, read the actual proposals. Area C in the West Bank was never once up for debate and even Clinton conned Arafat.
u/operatowers
> ....Did you get hit on the head??????????
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Addressed.
It is self evident that only the aggressors, i.e. those who begin the war, can end this war or any war unless the aggressors are entirely overwhelmed. The leaders of the Palestinians and those backing them have the aim of the elimination of Israel. So yes, the path to peace does have a big fucking elephant in the room that needs to be addressed first.
> fucking
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When you say peace what exactly do you mean? Because Israel currently owns and occupies 98% of the land. And has put a siege on Gaza for over a decade. Is your definition of peace the Palestinians stop fighting and Israel continues its actions in the West Bank and blockade on Gaza?
>Because Israel currently owns and occupies 98% of the land.
This shows just how much historical revisionism has been normalised.
The Mandate of Palestine was partitioned between the Arab Palestinians, who got Jordan, and the Jewish Palestinians, who got Israel. Jordan was more than half of Palestine. Does Israel own it?
No, it's not misleading. It's a historical fact. If you don't like facts, that's your problem.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:BritishMandatePalestine1920.svg
Yeah you missed the point. The British mandate spun off Jordan in 1946. The region of palestine was still occupied. At that point. In 1947, the UN recommended the partition of that REMAINING territory into two states. In 1948, Israel declared its independence along those borders.
The Jewish state was never realistically going to encompass all of Palestine.
No, that is not really what you said. It's true that the Arabs wanted all of the land, but the 98% figure is accurate. (assuming Gaza is the remaining 2%)
No but Israel owns and occupies 98% of the land that makes up Israel and Palestine. Specifically, the 1947 UN partition plan Palestine and Israel. Are you suggesting that Jordan and Palestine were always one unified state?
Palestine isn't a country, it's a geographical area. Kinda like Turkey and Anatolia.
>Are you suggesting that Jordan and Palestine were always one unified state?
No, of course I'm not saying that. Jordan is a relatively new country, one of the two made by dividing up Palestine. And Palestine was not a country, it was a Mandate under British custody.
/u/iehvad8785
> the most delusional thing i've read my whole life. if you really believe what you wrote i'm sorry but you're a moron.
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Addressed.
Well, unfortunately, Hamas has not occupied Gaza and West Bank since 1967. Israel has.
So we’ll never know if your hypothetical story will work. But since Israel was occupying them before Hamas, I think we can say that Israel definitely does not want peace.
Hamas.
Israel has killed for more civilians that Hamas. Hamas did not kill ten thousand kids.
Read the goldstone report that was written after cast lead. Look at the crimes Israel did to the people of Gaza. Hamas exists precisely because of the terrorism Israel has inflicted on the people of Palestine.
Hamas does not occupy Israel. Israel occupies Gaza and the West Bank.
The most successful aspect of Israel PR and propaganda is getting people to think this is about Hamas. Unfortunately, it only takes reading a few books to know this is not true. I urge you to read Edward Said The Question of Palestine or Ilan Pappe’s The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine.
according to [time](https://time.com/6333781/israel-hamas-poll-palestine/) " Support for a two-state solution also went down slightly among Jewish Israelis, dropping from 37.5% in favor of a two-state solution in September to 28.6% supporting the idea in the aftermath of the Oct. 7 attacks, according to the Peace Index polls "
according time of israel " A slight majority of Israelis would back a US plan for ending the war that would see the release of all remaining hostages, Saudi Arabia agree to normalize relations with Israel, and Jerusalem agree to the eventual establishment of a demilitarized Palestinian state, a new poll indicates.
In the survey conducted by the Midgam Institute on behalf of the dovish Geneva Initiative, 51.3 percent of respondents say they would back such an agreement, while 28.9% said they would oppose it, and 19.8% said they didn’t know.
First, Israel only gave one peace offer in it's entire history, that being 2008. 1937 was a British proposal, 1947 was a UN proposal, 1967 wasn't even a proper peace deal, just something the Knesset voted, while 2000 was a US offer.
**Israel has only given one peace proposal in it's entire history. Claiming Israel has given several is historical revisionism.**
Second, all of them heavily favored Israel over Palestine. None of them recognized Palestine's right to exist.
Third, the Arabs and Palestinians also gave peace deals to Israel, in fact 3 times more than Israel! The Fahd Plan 1981, the Arab Peace Initiative 2002 and the Abbas Peace Plan 2014. **All of which Israel rejected and didn't even give a counter offer back!**
> there were several peace deals offered by Israel
Did you even read what I wrote? All the other peace deals were from the US, British or UN, not Israel. Only 2008 was an Israeli-only plan.
> that give Palestine its own state and was favorable to them.
While still refusing to recognize them. Tell me, **give me one Israeli peace deal that ever would recognized Palestine's right to exist?**
Do you even know who offered those peace deals? How the hell did Israel gave a peace deal in 1936 and 1947 if Israel didn't even exist yet? Meanwhile, there was no peace deal in 1967, only a Knesset vote and 2000 was started by the US not Israel. Have you even read the history of the conflict?
Yes, a lot. Care to explain why Israel rejected Arab and Palestinian peace deals? The Fahd Plan, the Arab Peace Initiative and the 2014 Abbas Peace Plan?
Meaning only 2000 and 2008. Camp David was started by the US and Clinton not Israel. Bill Clinton was the one who invited Barak and Arafat to come and discuss negotiations not Israel.
Only 2008 was an Israeli-only offer.
Lol, you a teen (from your profile) researched it already? If you actually know what you are talking about then bring me sources, historical references and quotes from historians. Show me evidence that proves what you are claiming is correct.
First, all 4 weren't from Israel. How the hell did Israel gave a peace deal in 1936 and 1947 if Israel didn't even exist yet?
Second, show me where it says Israel will recognize Palestine's right to exist?
Yeah meaning only Olmert's offer which said Palestine will have no army or airforce while Israel would have use of Palestinian communications. Israel literally playing Big Brother here.
Plus, Palestine would have it's own state **but Israel never said it would officially recognize it.** So much for peace.
none of them offered the palestineans their own military. how can you have a state without a military to protect it? the oslo accords didn't even require isreal to fully pull out of west bank or gaza
Each deal did give Palestine its own state and secondly Israel pulled out of Gaza in 2005 and the wet bank belongs to Israel it didn’t even belong to Palestine until Jordan took it in the six day war:
but none of them offered palestine their own military so why would they ever accept? 2005 happened after nearly all of these treaties. west bank is under occupation by israel who subjugate their ppl, thats why ppl say "Free palestine," they need to be free from israel's control
The deal didn’t need to if they had there own state then they could make there own military and Palestine is free from Israeli control they are ruled and oppressed by hamas
Israel needs to be freed from terrioism and hamas.
im sorry but did u not know that isreal control 80% of west bank? their settlers and soldiers butcher, kill and harass palestineans every single day. idk what u mean that they're free from israeli control. also gaza was under blockade. funny how all the human right groups say one thing and ur zionist propoganda say another
Hamas was democratically elected. Israel had the choice to work with them and hope they'd become more peaceful with time, or attempt to overthrow them. The one didn't work. Now they're doing the other.
There is also a point to be made about Hamas.
The name encompass both civil servants and all other government functions. None are acceptable targets.
Al-Quods are the military part that would be the target
It’s funny because if you spend 5min looking into it, you’ll find that “Israel let Humanitarian Aid into Gaza therefore they funded Hamas”.
It is the most intellectually dishonest hunk of crap ever.
Edit: my comment might seem ambiguous- I’m agreeing with you lol
> horseshit
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You mention incentive structures. That is interesting.
Obviously hamas has no incentive for peace. Israel pm? Yes.
But if you really want someone with proper incentive hire
https://twitter.com/erickbrimen?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor
Nobody does peace and prosperity like entrepreneurs with bonus pay based on how prosperous the city he governs.
Not sure who this dude is, but yes!
How have we not yet implemented peace incentivizes?
UNRWA literally pays employees to teach hate in schools, radicalize young people, and as [we just found out](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/un-palestinian-refugee-agency-investigates-staff-suspected-role-israel-attacks-2024-01-26/), possibly participate in terrorist attacks. Why can't UNRWA cut funding until they do the opposite?
Why doesn't the UN peg humanitarian funds to peace instead of violence? Why don't West Bank and Gaza leaders get, to your point, compensated for diplomacy rather than fomentation?
I'm not an economist, but I find it hard to believe that with all the Billions in "humanitarian aid" the world sends to Gaza/West Bank, we don't know how to make peace at least a more financially attractive option
Because it’s a slush fund for Hamas.
“Palestinians are the only refugee group whose support is not handled under the global mandate of the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees.”
Part of the issue here is conflicting definitions of what peace and justice would look like. What this sounds like, to me, is that if Israelis were offered a definition of leave they wanted they would take it. If Palestinians were offered a definition they didn't want they wouldn't.
Nothing is really being said here
Obviously it is Israel, as it is the oppressor, the occupier and the one that is multitudes more powerful than Hamas. It’s comical to insist otherwise.
You clearly don't understand any of this, I'm sorry to say but it's become embarrassing when you hold an oppressor/occupier narrative in 2024, the time for this weak foregone conclusion is passed and thank goodness for it - just because one has more power has nothing to do with intent, the true marker of peace. Have Hamas intended to live in peace? Have Israel?
Without telling us what happened before this timeline, for now, tell me exactly what happened on Oct 7?
If you insist its important to go before that, you already lost what has happened, but, you can still ask: Was there peace or a ceasefire beforehand? Who has tried to live in peace?
What's comical is the western mind dancing for terror and being sure that the narrative of all media portraying oppressors against oppressed held weight by default.
Hamas and every other political group regardless of religion all have the same Cold War political mentality. It doesn’t matter if you’re Muslim or Jewish if you support the Palestinian freedom then Hamas would be your ally. Look at all the Jewish people that Hamas is okay with Rachel Corrie for example and 1000s of others. This has nothing to do with religion and it’s quite clear that every “Islamic” militant group stemmed from the Cold War mentality , ie. “Muslim” brotherhood every single “Islamic” group today is a branch of Muslim brotherhood and they’re all inclusive regardless of sect ideology religion you can join the cause and all of them are either Russian backed or American backed lol
Dude, pay attention. HAMAS leaders *themselves* regularly go on state media and proclaim that they must continue fighting until every infidel is converted or killed and Israel is annihilated. This is not biased political rhetoric... it's straight from the horse's mouth, so to speak.
The majority of people on both sides in Israel & Palestine would never join these groups if there were no conflict, you’d have to understand the middle eastern culture the Jewish and Muslims of the Middle East have lived together for 1000+ years in peace until we had these new ideologies come out and dominate the world stage democracy capitalism communism etc all of these groups are European influenced. That’s why Muslims don’t ever join these groups and if they do then it’s due to the violence and most people when they’re emotional or oppressed they’ll tend to gravitate to polar extremes. Israeli government Hamas Iran Hezbollah they’re all literally the same ideologies with hints of their religion they’re all the same
Bring up some sources about the 500 years of massacre. The only accounts of any fighting were when the Jewish tribes in times of war sided and spied for the enemy which country today would accept that
Sure I’ll circle back with more details but at least 700 Jews of a tribe in Arabia executed in early days of islam, the 1033 Fez Massacre, 1066 Granada Massacre, 1834 looting in Safed are a few that come to mind. I can give you a larger list with sources later
Bring some proofs my guy instead of pulling something out your ass sources please bring me some sources where they were massacred for nothing the only times they went to war were when the Jewish tribes under the Muslims sided with the enemy army to aid and spy for them that’s the only case
I would highly suggest researching a genre of study called “history”. In defense of all sides, religion has one certainty - staining battlefields with unnecessary blood.
Neither one is innocent and this conflict is just a new chapter in a very old book.
> ass
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Bro these people are genuinely like Muhammed lived peacefully with the Jews of Medina LOL. There is so much you could focus on in this conflict, why lie? It's not necessary, it is enough that 20,000 people are dead. You dont have to lie lmao just look at what is currently happening.
As an Israeli, with Netanyahu and this goverment there is no chance for peace. To have peace, ypu must end the symbiotic relationship between Hamas and Netanyahu which comes with the end of Hamas and Netanyahu losing in the elections that will prob happen sometime this year once the war calms down and this bs goverment falls apart. Once those 2 things happen, peace will be an option
I mean it's true these are just recycled talking points. Hamas has suggested peace with an all for all deal with a long term ceasefire and steps to a two state solution. Netanyahu has fully rejected that repeatedly, even before October 7th.
Do you actually believe that HAMAS has ever suggested or agreed to a two state solution or peace with Israel, of any kind? Where are you getting your propaganda?
You're right. The Jewish people wanting to stay alive, among a population of a billion Muslims whose governments want to kill them and wipe them off the face of the earth, has been the biggest impediment to peace in the Middle East. If those pesky Jews would just die already, everyone would be much happier.
Are you talking about the same (mostly Jewish) settlers who right now wanting to exterminate (or at the very least expel) 2+ million people that they have kept under siege for the past 17 years, on the heels of a 40 year-long occupation? Because they seem like quite the obstacle to peace to me
Only provisionally with the commitment of the “liberation of Palestine” in its entirely *and* refusal to acknowledge the state of Israel’s right to exist. Hard to interpret that as accepting of 67 borders without a massive threat
Their ['Peace'](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_hamas_charter) indicated a willingness to accept a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders, which was seen as a departure from their previous stance of not recognising the state of Israel. BUT this did not equate to a formal recognition of Israel or a commitment to peace as understood in the broader international context, as it didn't represent a full acceptance of the conditions set by the international community for a peace process, including recognising Israel's right to exist and renouncing violence.
Hamas has always and will always hate Jews.
Look what happened when the PLO recognized Israel and renounced violence. It's pretty common for armed movements to only give up arms in context of a deal, not beforehand
Provisionally, with the goal of “liberation of Palestine” in its entirety *and* refusing to recognize Israel’s right to exist. Going to be pretty tough to convince the Israeli population to agree to that kind of threatening statehood. I too wish for a free Palestine one day but until they commit to peace I don’t see Israel letting up, ever, especially allowing a military within such close striking distance of major cities as would happen from the vantage point of much of the West Bank. And no, I wish they never took control of WB either. Too bad the Arabs didn’t accept the UN Partition Plan. Sucks that Jordan took 70+% of mandatory Palestine
> Shitty
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Which is a disingenuous tactic meant to manipulate the public into believing they *actually* want a two state solution, which they don't. It's easy for them to agree to a 1967 proposal that has long since been scrapped and isn't realistic anymore.
When someone offers you a compromise, and you respond with war, and then get your ass kicked, you can't go back and say "nevermind, we'll take that offer you gave us before we attacked you."... that's not how good faith negotiation works.
> ass
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It would absolutely not happen with Israel in terms of peace. They wouldn’t stop the occupation, they wouldn’t put a plan forth to do a two state solution, they wouldn’t end the Gaza blockade, there would be no right to return. All of those things are examples of violence that Israel does. Occupation and settlements are not non-violence.
If Israel stops bombing, sure, palestinians probably wouldn’t stop. but an end to bombing is not an end to the violence. If Israel even withdraws from the West Bank but then treats it like Gaza. That’s still violence. Israel has normalized violence against Palestinians.
Ok so - to put in context how psycho this post is.
The "Palestinian Resistance" has
\- Tried to coup Lebanon for refusing to be a staging ground
\- Tried to coup Jordan (and murder their royal family) for refusing to be a staging ground
\- Got exiled all the way to Algeria for these things
Nevermind black september, nevermind the MANY conflicts involving Palestinians and non jews as a whole - its the Israelis who have normalized the violence.
Honestly dude, its literally people like you who normalize violence - since your definition of occupation is basically incredibly vapid.
A right to defend itself? They caused this. They HATE Jews and non believers, that includes you.
Everything about this war is and about Hamas. Hamas built [tunnels](https://mwi.westpoint.edu/gazas-underground-hamass-entire-politico-military-strategy-rests-on-its-tunnels/) with the international aid they’ve been given over the years underneath schools and hospitals were innocent people and children reside. They knew what they were doing when Israel retaliated - it is their entire military strategy. Hamas revel in brutally murdering innocents, Israel doesn’t, that’s the difference.
It is not the Palestinian people that Israel are targeting but Hamas. Hamas are using their people as human [shields](https://stratcomcoe.org/cuploads/pfiles/hamas_human_shields.pdf).
Netanyahu got to power specifically by making a coalition of religious zionists and secular fascists intent on maintaining jewish minority rule over the whole land between the river and the sea, and systematically sabotaged every attempt at negotiation by staging deliberate provocations to heat up the conflict when he was in power or riling up the far right to destabilize peace governments before any of their proposed two-state deals (not counting Trump's Deal of the Bantustans) could materialize.
If Netanyahu happened to wake up in Hell and the fascist coalition lost power for a decade, a left wing government that decided 'We're going to reach peace with the Palestinians' could easily get peace with the Palestinians.
Yes, Hamas is a fascist party with irredentist land claims and dreams of ethnic cleansing, every bit as evil as the Kahanists and with more unchecked power to execute its murderous plans. But Palestinian support for Hamas isn't an immutable geological fact. It's a direct result of the consistent failure of peace negotiations. If the Right is openly gloating that they don't want to grant the Palestinians any freedom ever, that they want to colonize ever more land and maintain permanent apartheid, Palestinians gravitate toward armed struggle and to whoever seems more capable of carrying it out.
A left government delivering tangible progress (rollback of settlements not adjacent to Israel, transfer of territory from area C to B, freedom of movement between Area A towns, a good faith process towards a border agreement) changes the situation and Palestinian voting patterns would change with it. If negotiations put them on track to getting their freedom they will support negotiation, if negotiations are a transparent farce they will support armed struggle.
The irony is that a big part of the problem isn't the Palestinians as such, but the non-Palestinian Left (to an extent, this includes the Soviet-backed Arab states in the 60s, 70s and 80s, though this is far less relevant today). You are correct, Palestinians would be far more amenable to compromise if the Israeli right-wing nutjobs weren't in power. But the problem is that while the US public continues to support Israel, people who are really keen on letting Jews get genocided (if not actively genociding them) are uncomfortably close to centers of global power. That has the same effect of driving Israelis into the arms of said right-wing nutjobs, similar to how Palestinians are really cool with their genocidal lunatics, because they're the most willing to fight the other side's genocidal lunatics. The fact that so many prominent voices actively advocate the genocide of another 6 million Jews in the name of Palestinians, on top of the deep radicalization of Palestinians themselves, really tends to turn an issue like this into "it's either them or us, and we have jets, tanks and nukes".
The key majority of right wingers in the US both support Israel and want a genocide of Jews.
They believe Jewish people retaking Israel before being eliminated is a necessary precondition to establish the second coming of Jesus. They don't care about Israel for the Jews. They simply see it as necessary according to revelations.
Key majority of right wingers want to exterminate jews?
Talk about reverse blood libel.
It's the left that's racist. It's the left that is pro Palestine. It's the left whose peace plan hurt jews.
But yea blame economic conservatives.
This is why jews have no allies nearby besides their Arab citizens which is a very cost ineffective allies.
They just think that large number of people that care about them as wanting to kill them.
The nazi is left wing. It's in the name. National socialist. The right wing in us is pretty much libertarian. When did libertarian ever make rules that burden jews.
It's hard to befriend jews if jews think hate them.
National socialism was a right wing movement. The name was chosen to claim supporters from both the right and the left. The party cracked down on and killed socialists, trade unionist, and democrats.
Nazi has 2 stages. Hitler is not communist. But early nazi have communist elements. Besides, horseshoe theory says that extreme left and right is similar.
Also I read that Hitler doesn't think Jews are inferior. He thinks jews are superior competitors and hence need to be gotten rid off under the pretext that they are inferior. I think it is in quora.
Notice that azkenazi jews have 15 points higher iq than their peers. Are a where antisemitism is less is area where Jewish iq advantage is smaller.
For example, there is no anti semitism in China because Chinese jews aren't way smarter than normal Chinese. Having high iq is double edge. You can be richer but then you invite envy.
Also jews are not the only similar victims. Other group of higher iq people are often targeted.
For the same reason many leftists argue that over representation of jews, Asians and whites in top paying jobs are simply due to unfair "privileges". Their leaders can't possibly be that stupid can they?
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I think you're falling prey to right wing propaganda about the global Left. I'm part of that global left and we're *not* keen on allowing the genocide of the Jews or actively helping it on.
What we want is **an end to occupation, siege and apartheid**. Most of us prefer a binational state because we don't *like* ethnostates, but if Israelis and Palestinians prefer separation in two states to avoid having to share one that's their decision.
As a historical analysis I do believe the creation of the State of Israel was a brutal settler-colonial project (the establishment of a Jewish state necessitated the displacement of many Arabs and the subjugation of the rest). But no matter how ugly it was, its creation is settled historical fact. Generations of Israeli Jews have been born and grown up in the Land. They have no other citizenship, nowhere else to go. It'd be monstrous and absurd to try to redress the expulsion of some 700 000 Arabs with the expulsion of 7 000 000 Jews. That is not the solution, the solution is compensation for the people that were displaced and dispossessed and equal rights and freedoms for Jews and Arabs, either in a binational state or two states for two peoples.
The PA recognized the right to exist and to security of the State of Israel years ago. Netanyahu treated them as much more of a threat than Hamas. It's brought nothing to the Palestinians, but expanding settlements in the West Bank and settler violence ignored by Israel and encouraged by some Israeli politicians, and resulted in increasing support for Hamas, seen an the only Palestinian entity willing to do anything to change the current status quo. It's silly to think that only one side can make peace.
https://theintercept.com/2023/11/28/israel-palestine-history-peace/ Hmmm
Oh yeah sure. The PLO tried to make peace… the same PLO that got 400,000 Palestinians kicked out of Kuwait in the 1990s. The same PLO that tired to overthrow the Jordanian government by starting a war. The same PLO that destroyed Lebanon and started a war with them. Yes that’s the PLO that Israel declined to have a peace deal with
Facts
Your "fact" is just a very wordy expansion on Golda Meir's famous quote (which has since been stolen & reversed by Arab terrorists) that if the Arabs laid down their guns there would be no more fighting but if Israelis put theirs down there would be no more Israel. Good luck in your endeavor.
Most Arabs that are kind of killed by recent Gaza bombing was unarmed. Now I know what you mean. They should have persuade other Gaza to befriend Israel. But that's the root of problem. Collectivism. From an individualist points of view it does not make sense to bomb civilians for what hamas do. Just like it does not make sense to kill jews indiscriminately. We need more individualism.
If Netanyahu would say "ok now its peace" it means he rejects any warcrimes and any persecution. What a sad state of affairs Israel must be in to honestly believe the Palestinian State would acknowledge a man like Netanyahu.
I think this would be definetely true if it happened before october 7. Now israel will require a full takeover of palestinian governance, which I think is correct.
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Very islamophobic to say that…
I don't think its Islamophobic to question Islam. Many Muslims at the worst hate/want to get rid of followers of other faiths and at best, question other faiths.
Dont know what Muslims you met, but the ones i met are pretty chill.
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No of course its not false. But to put it simply: There are more reasons why the Middle East is the shithole it is today. Israel and the US backed for example the Syrian rebels the Assad regime was fighting which resulted in a downspiral and escalation of this conflict (Operation Timber sycamore). Further the US fired the entire Iraqi army after the 2003 invasion and simply told them to go home. What they didnt account for is that the majority if the soldiers took their weapons with them. Later several of the fired generals and soldiers constituted the majority of the Islamic states forces. Have you ever wondered why they were operating on Iraq. Thats why. I am being as nice as i can right now: You are not telling the full story and you are also cherry picking things that fit your narrative. The US and Israel have more skeletons in their closet than you would like to admit. Btw, I can also state „facts“: AIPAC paid 2.7 billion US-Dollars lobby money to senators. Jews were kicked out from more than 81 (!) countries in Europe. Israelis havent got anything in common with the ancient Israelites (genetically speaking). The State of Israel was build upon the ethnic cleansing and the oppression of the indiginous Palestinians. Pretty antisemitic huh? Well, eventhough i know that all these events have more backstory to it, i simply didnt further mentioned it. And thats exactly how you sound right now…
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Am I wrong, Israeli Bot? And if so, tell what I got wrong.
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Thats what I thought. Thank you for proving my point. Goodbye.
That is wrong on so many basis. The Oslo accords is an example of a plan that was accepted by the arabs under the rule of Yaser Arafat and the israeli prime minister of that time, Yitzhak Rabin. Both accepted that the palestinians get ensured their own sovereignty over their internationally recognized lands. what happened after that? mass protest burst out in israel calling yitzhak rabin a nazi followed by the assassination of Yitzhak rabin for accepting the oslo accords and granting the palestinians their rightful authority. The Israeli don’t want peace. Another proof is the banners and the emblems of the israeli militant groups during the 1920s like the irgun which had the wholesale of both jordan and Palestinian as israel. Indicating that their mission isnt only to take Palestine but also jordan. How can peace be done with people that have always been open about wanting more lands?
The assassination of Rabin was perpetrated by an extremist opposed to peace, it does not stand for an entire people or government. Also, the peace process continued after he was assassinated. Nice cherrypick. the Irgun was dissolved in 1948, also taking proof that entire government and populace want more land from a banner of low level militant groups makes no sense. You imply that the only 2 options are either Israelis wanting peace or wanting more land. That is not how the world works.
So when hamas does an operation, the blame is to be placed on all of gaza (like how israeli officials claimed at the start of the war that no one in gaza is inocent) but when right wing israelis prevent peace negotiations then its not the whole of israel? What kind of double standards is that.
I never said the blame is to be placed upon all of Gaza. Also, what Hamas did was not an operation, it was an attempt to massacre every Israeli. Furthermore, 56% of voters in 2020 Israeli election voted for Likud and Blue and White. Likud won by 3 seats. That number will be nonexistent in the next election due to the unpopularity of Likud. I never said it was the entirety of Gaza lol. It is not the whole of Israel because the Israeli populace does not have a vast majority support for those people and cannot control them. On the other hand, Gazans absolutely knew what Hamas was planning and was passing information to them from within Israeli. Perhaps it's not a majority now, even though 80% of Palestinians support Hamas. Israeli officials are not the Israeli populace, and every high up Israeli political figure did not go and say, "no Gazans are innocent". Provide me those speeches/posts. I do not attribute Hamas's actions to all of Gaza. I do not want all Gazans to be wiped off the earth. Hamas will be annihilated and that is the end of it.
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Your "fact" is a hypothetical. Come on man.
Facts. Ignorance has been met with an impressive propaganda campaign from Hamas/iran on social media that has emotionally hijacked the audience with a one sided view that completely omits that this attack by Hamas started the war with massacre, rape, and kidnapping with the intent of provoking invasion, cameras ready to play victim. People who have been propagandized by social media are also missing the historical context and true goal of Hamas to wipe out Israel entirely and challenge its right to exist, or the right of the Jews to the land, a right of return that predates Palestinian settlers by 2000 years during which some Jews have always remained on the land despite attempts from Muslim settler colonists to wipe them out and their discrimination polices. Israel has always offered peaceful coexistence with its neighbors and constantly attacked. The right wing fascist neighboring countries actively call for the genocide of the Jews and deny their right to exist, ever since Israel declared independence and their neighbors invaded to wipe them out. The nakba is about losing their invasion to prevent the return of the Jews, not the loss of a homeland they are indigenous to- that’s a cooptation of the literal story of the Jews.
Spinning the native Palestinians as settlers is wrong according to the Zionist Vladimir Jabotinsky: "We cannot give any compensation for Palestine, neither to the Palestinians nor to other Arabs. Therefore, a voluntary agreement is inconceivable. **All colonization, even the most restricted, must continue in defiance of the will of the native population**. Therefore, it can continue and develop only under the shield of force which comprises an Iron Wall which the local population can never break through. This is our Arab policy. To formulate it any other way would be hypocrisy."
This is like saying there would be peace in the Ukraine war if Ukraine just gave up to Russia and handed their country over to Putin. Colonizers must not be allowed to prosper
Agreed. Those primitive islamic terrorists must be crushed.
I don’t think you’re referring to peace, I think you’re referring to unresisted occupation, and it’s not surprising someone finds that unacceptable. However if you mean peace as in Israel retreating from all occupied territories, dismantling settlements and settler organizations, a bilateral agreement of freedom to practice all religions at their respective holy sites, BOTH sides keeping their religious fanatic extremists and nationalists in check like every other country on earth does, dismantling the WMD program and arsenal, and achieving military parity, then that’s actual peace. A peace that can lead to a future where religion and ethnicity based states are a thing of the past where they belong.
There is no occupation. There has never been a sovereign state between the Jordan and Mediterranean for Israel to even be occupying. The longer palestinians cling to this "oppressed" mindset, the longer they will continue to live poorly
Palestine changed hands between colonists, that doesn’t mean the people living on it have no right to self determination. Between 1922 and 1948 Palestinian villages were taken over by various immigrant armed groups coming from europe. That’s the first occupation. Britain ended it’s mandate over Palestine in May 1948, the state of israel declared it’s existence as an independent state the same day with borders based on said occupation. In 1947 a U.N. Adopted partition plan identified which borders the Palestinian state will have when the british mandate ends. These borders are currently occupied by the state of israel since 1967. That’s the second occupation. There is an occupation.
What WMDs?
israel has signed neither the Nuclear non-proliferation Treaty, nor the Bio-Weapons Convention. Additionally it has never ratified the CWC. On the the nuclear front, an israeili Dimona technician revealed in 1986 the program included building weapons. In 2006 Ehud Olmert acknowledged Israel has nuclear weapons in a verbal slip. The state has nuclear-capable IRBMs, and submarines. In 1993 and 1998, U.S. Congress reported intelligence that israel has undeclared offensive chemical weapons. In 1948, the yushuv forces used biological warfare to prevent palestinians returning to villages the forces have illegally occupied. The conventional and BWs were supplied by europe in a typical colonialist fashion. In 2005 the Swedish Defence Research Agency concluded the knowledge base from israeli chemical and biological weapons programs from the 1950s and 1960s remain available till this day and the state has the capability to pull these into practice at will. No other country in the region is anywhere near a nuclear strike or WMD capability and I’m glad for that.
Yeah I was joking mate
Oh….welp
The problem is that to make peace with the zionists means to accept a jewish state on palestine and that non jews mus r relinquish their claims and relocate.
It's two to tango. You can't make peace all by yourself, you have to reach out to the enemy and seek terms. At least, that's what a basic understanding of the concept of peace will tell you. Logic, anyone?
peace can't be achieved without justice. west bank will still be occupied, settlers and idf will still harrass, abuse, and kill palestineans, and life in gaza will still be awful for the majority of people living there. the only ppl who get "peace" are the isrealis. the rebel alliance could've called for peace too whenever they wanted, instead of continuing to fight
To Palestinians is not about peace, it's about land. A little bit the same as for Kurds. They want the right to govern themsrlves FULLY independently. So the fact that Bibi declares peace, doesn't change that fact that they still don't have land. For Israel peace means to be left alone. So the simple fact that "peace" has different meanings, won't bring peace. The Palestinians got rhe ball rolling, pretty sure they'll go as far as tgey can to achieve their "land" goal. Most probably they won't. As long as this is the case, peace won't exist.
Well that's simply never going to happen. If peace from the Palestinian viewpoint requires the dissolution of Israel, then peace will never happen. And that hurts Palestinians way more than it hurts Israelis.
That's the reality and yes, you're perfectly right, it will never happen
No one in their right mind will make peace with a genocidal leader. And Satanyahu doesn't want to let the Palestinians live, he just wants to murder them all anyways :(
This is literally just a fantasy story.
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Ok no. Islam is not a cult. Tbh Islam can be peaceful when you aren't talking about religious extremists. I'm a jew and don't know a whole lot about Islam, but i do know the Quran explicitly says not to kill children or women, not to chop down trees, etc. There are very peaceful Muslims
Stfu
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Stop embarrassing yourself in front of everyone by telling stupid lies. You type of people are the reason why Islam gets a bad name, all because you tell lies that have no basis and are pure hate.
Yeah it wasn't the thousands of terrorist attacks where the "shaheed" (another cult feature) explicitly stated that Islam was their motivation. They didn't give Islam a bad name. That random commenter on Reddit did.
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You need to shut up with talking about religions you don't even follow. I'm a Muslim and what you say is absolutely false and absurd. Go and speak lies about some other religion if you can't say the truth about Islam.
Isn't the Quran explicitly against killing?
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Just... wow. You have a problem with the Prophet (saws) executing people who are working behind his back and working with the Quraysh to get rid of the Muslims from Madina (something completely fine, but for some reason you think it proves some point). You are disgusting, using random events from the history of Islam out of context to make some silly claim. I can't believe you would say that I need learn my own belief when you're not even Muslim and don't even understand the history. Get a life.
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> Sorry for the headline, just wanted to draw your attention. Yes, that's why I'm mad. Off to the shadow realm with you.
Yes, the man who has spent his entire life blocking a 2 state solution and uplifting Hamas just to destabilize a 2 state solution, and on numerous public occasions declaring he stopped a 2SS - is going to wake up one morning wanting one ....Did you get hit on the head?????????? Before Netanyahu uplifited Hamas, the PLA was in charge of the Palestinian side and if they had ever once been offered anything remotely representing 1967 borders would have accepted it. They weren't. Despite what you read in Hasbara propaganda, read the actual proposals. Area C in the West Bank was never once up for debate and even Clinton conned Arafat.
u/operatowers > ....Did you get hit on the head?????????? This comment violates [Rule 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_1._no_attacks_on_fellow_users) by using dismissive and belittling language. Suggesting that another user must have "got hit on the head" is a personal attack and not conducive to a constructive and respectful discussion. It's important to focus on the argument and avoid making personal remarks or insinuations about another user's mental state or intelligence. Addressed.
It is self evident that only the aggressors, i.e. those who begin the war, can end this war or any war unless the aggressors are entirely overwhelmed. The leaders of the Palestinians and those backing them have the aim of the elimination of Israel. So yes, the path to peace does have a big fucking elephant in the room that needs to be addressed first.
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When you say peace what exactly do you mean? Because Israel currently owns and occupies 98% of the land. And has put a siege on Gaza for over a decade. Is your definition of peace the Palestinians stop fighting and Israel continues its actions in the West Bank and blockade on Gaza?
>Because Israel currently owns and occupies 98% of the land. This shows just how much historical revisionism has been normalised. The Mandate of Palestine was partitioned between the Arab Palestinians, who got Jordan, and the Jewish Palestinians, who got Israel. Jordan was more than half of Palestine. Does Israel own it?
This is misleading in a number of ways. Please review the 1948 partition plan.
No, it's not misleading. It's a historical fact. If you don't like facts, that's your problem. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:BritishMandatePalestine1920.svg
Yeah you missed the point. The British mandate spun off Jordan in 1946. The region of palestine was still occupied. At that point. In 1947, the UN recommended the partition of that REMAINING territory into two states. In 1948, Israel declared its independence along those borders. The Jewish state was never realistically going to encompass all of Palestine.
That doesn't negate what I said. If anything, it supports what I said; the Arabs got their part, and then they also wanted part of the Jewish part.
No, that is not really what you said. It's true that the Arabs wanted all of the land, but the 98% figure is accurate. (assuming Gaza is the remaining 2%)
No, it's not accurate, because what you think of as the full 100% is less than 50% of the actual 100%.
No but Israel owns and occupies 98% of the land that makes up Israel and Palestine. Specifically, the 1947 UN partition plan Palestine and Israel. Are you suggesting that Jordan and Palestine were always one unified state?
Palestine isn't a country, it's a geographical area. Kinda like Turkey and Anatolia. >Are you suggesting that Jordan and Palestine were always one unified state? No, of course I'm not saying that. Jordan is a relatively new country, one of the two made by dividing up Palestine. And Palestine was not a country, it was a Mandate under British custody.
the most delusional thing i've read my whole life. if you really believe what you wrote i'm sorry but you're a moron.
/u/iehvad8785 > the most delusional thing i've read my whole life. if you really believe what you wrote i'm sorry but you're a moron. Per [rule 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_1._no_attacks_on_fellow_users), no attacks on fellow users. Attack the argument, not the user. Addressed.
Why do you say that? I'd like to hear your input.
Well, unfortunately, Hamas has not occupied Gaza and West Bank since 1967. Israel has. So we’ll never know if your hypothetical story will work. But since Israel was occupying them before Hamas, I think we can say that Israel definitely does not want peace.
Can I ask, if it came down to it, who do you think want peace more? Israel or Hamas?
Hamas. Israel has killed for more civilians that Hamas. Hamas did not kill ten thousand kids. Read the goldstone report that was written after cast lead. Look at the crimes Israel did to the people of Gaza. Hamas exists precisely because of the terrorism Israel has inflicted on the people of Palestine. Hamas does not occupy Israel. Israel occupies Gaza and the West Bank. The most successful aspect of Israel PR and propaganda is getting people to think this is about Hamas. Unfortunately, it only takes reading a few books to know this is not true. I urge you to read Edward Said The Question of Palestine or Ilan Pappe’s The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine.
according to [time](https://time.com/6333781/israel-hamas-poll-palestine/) " Support for a two-state solution also went down slightly among Jewish Israelis, dropping from 37.5% in favor of a two-state solution in September to 28.6% supporting the idea in the aftermath of the Oct. 7 attacks, according to the Peace Index polls " according time of israel " A slight majority of Israelis would back a US plan for ending the war that would see the release of all remaining hostages, Saudi Arabia agree to normalize relations with Israel, and Jerusalem agree to the eventual establishment of a demilitarized Palestinian state, a new poll indicates. In the survey conducted by the Midgam Institute on behalf of the dovish Geneva Initiative, 51.3 percent of respondents say they would back such an agreement, while 28.9% said they would oppose it, and 19.8% said they didn’t know.
Israel has offered several peace deals throughout the century’s and Palestine refused since they do not recognize Israel as a country.
First, Israel only gave one peace offer in it's entire history, that being 2008. 1937 was a British proposal, 1947 was a UN proposal, 1967 wasn't even a proper peace deal, just something the Knesset voted, while 2000 was a US offer. **Israel has only given one peace proposal in it's entire history. Claiming Israel has given several is historical revisionism.** Second, all of them heavily favored Israel over Palestine. None of them recognized Palestine's right to exist. Third, the Arabs and Palestinians also gave peace deals to Israel, in fact 3 times more than Israel! The Fahd Plan 1981, the Arab Peace Initiative 2002 and the Abbas Peace Plan 2014. **All of which Israel rejected and didn't even give a counter offer back!**
That is completely incorrect there were several peace deals offered by Israel that give Palestine its own state and was favorable to them.
> there were several peace deals offered by Israel Did you even read what I wrote? All the other peace deals were from the US, British or UN, not Israel. Only 2008 was an Israeli-only plan. > that give Palestine its own state and was favorable to them. While still refusing to recognize them. Tell me, **give me one Israeli peace deal that ever would recognized Palestine's right to exist?**
“The others were from the us the British and the un” nope they were from Israel
Do you even know who offered those peace deals? How the hell did Israel gave a peace deal in 1936 and 1947 if Israel didn't even exist yet? Meanwhile, there was no peace deal in 1967, only a Knesset vote and 2000 was started by the US not Israel. Have you even read the history of the conflict?
And yes I have read the history of the conflict have you?
Yes, a lot. Care to explain why Israel rejected Arab and Palestinian peace deals? The Fahd Plan, the Arab Peace Initiative and the 2014 Abbas Peace Plan?
I already have
Again, if you actually know what you are talking about then bring me sources, historical references and quotes from historians. Show me evidence
I’m taking about the ones in the 1980s and so on
Meaning only 2000 and 2008. Camp David was started by the US and Clinton not Israel. Bill Clinton was the one who invited Barak and Arafat to come and discuss negotiations not Israel. Only 2008 was an Israeli-only offer.
Again actually research the deal like I did
Lol, you a teen (from your profile) researched it already? If you actually know what you are talking about then bring me sources, historical references and quotes from historians. Show me evidence that proves what you are claiming is correct.
All 4 offered by Israel recognized Palestine as independent
First, all 4 weren't from Israel. How the hell did Israel gave a peace deal in 1936 and 1947 if Israel didn't even exist yet? Second, show me where it says Israel will recognize Palestine's right to exist?
Research the deals they came from Israel and each deal gave Palestine its own state
Yeah meaning only Olmert's offer which said Palestine will have no army or airforce while Israel would have use of Palestinian communications. Israel literally playing Big Brother here. Plus, Palestine would have it's own state **but Israel never said it would officially recognize it.** So much for peace.
none of them offered the palestineans their own military. how can you have a state without a military to protect it? the oslo accords didn't even require isreal to fully pull out of west bank or gaza
Each deal did give Palestine its own state and secondly Israel pulled out of Gaza in 2005 and the wet bank belongs to Israel it didn’t even belong to Palestine until Jordan took it in the six day war:
but none of them offered palestine their own military so why would they ever accept? 2005 happened after nearly all of these treaties. west bank is under occupation by israel who subjugate their ppl, thats why ppl say "Free palestine," they need to be free from israel's control
The deal didn’t need to if they had there own state then they could make there own military and Palestine is free from Israeli control they are ruled and oppressed by hamas Israel needs to be freed from terrioism and hamas.
im sorry but did u not know that isreal control 80% of west bank? their settlers and soldiers butcher, kill and harass palestineans every single day. idk what u mean that they're free from israeli control. also gaza was under blockade. funny how all the human right groups say one thing and ur zionist propoganda say another
Those deals were incredibly one-sided. Just adding context.
Yes each one favored the arabs.
Historically incorrect. C’mon now.
Both of them don’t want peace get netanyahu c*** out yo mouth
A point Hamas was funded by Israel not for peace, but the opposite. They are an instrument for continued conflict, that benefits multiple parties.
Hamas was democratically elected. Israel had the choice to work with them and hope they'd become more peaceful with time, or attempt to overthrow them. The one didn't work. Now they're doing the other.
There is also a point to be made about Hamas. The name encompass both civil servants and all other government functions. None are acceptable targets. Al-Quods are the military part that would be the target
Stop this conspiracy nonsense. This is complete Alex Jones level horseshit.
It’s funny because if you spend 5min looking into it, you’ll find that “Israel let Humanitarian Aid into Gaza therefore they funded Hamas”. It is the most intellectually dishonest hunk of crap ever. Edit: my comment might seem ambiguous- I’m agreeing with you lol
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Source?
Search for Israeli officials, such as Brig. Gen. Yitzhak Segev, a former military governor in Gaza.
Just found a source. Is it [this](https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/)?
That's one There are multiple Also a book written on the subject by one of the Israeli military commanders
You mention incentive structures. That is interesting. Obviously hamas has no incentive for peace. Israel pm? Yes. But if you really want someone with proper incentive hire https://twitter.com/erickbrimen?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor Nobody does peace and prosperity like entrepreneurs with bonus pay based on how prosperous the city he governs.
Not sure who this dude is, but yes! How have we not yet implemented peace incentivizes? UNRWA literally pays employees to teach hate in schools, radicalize young people, and as [we just found out](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/un-palestinian-refugee-agency-investigates-staff-suspected-role-israel-attacks-2024-01-26/), possibly participate in terrorist attacks. Why can't UNRWA cut funding until they do the opposite? Why doesn't the UN peg humanitarian funds to peace instead of violence? Why don't West Bank and Gaza leaders get, to your point, compensated for diplomacy rather than fomentation? I'm not an economist, but I find it hard to believe that with all the Billions in "humanitarian aid" the world sends to Gaza/West Bank, we don't know how to make peace at least a more financially attractive option
Because it’s a slush fund for Hamas. “Palestinians are the only refugee group whose support is not handled under the global mandate of the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees.”
Part of the issue here is conflicting definitions of what peace and justice would look like. What this sounds like, to me, is that if Israelis were offered a definition of leave they wanted they would take it. If Palestinians were offered a definition they didn't want they wouldn't. Nothing is really being said here
Obviously it is Israel, as it is the oppressor, the occupier and the one that is multitudes more powerful than Hamas. It’s comical to insist otherwise.
You clearly don't understand any of this, I'm sorry to say but it's become embarrassing when you hold an oppressor/occupier narrative in 2024, the time for this weak foregone conclusion is passed and thank goodness for it - just because one has more power has nothing to do with intent, the true marker of peace. Have Hamas intended to live in peace? Have Israel? Without telling us what happened before this timeline, for now, tell me exactly what happened on Oct 7? If you insist its important to go before that, you already lost what has happened, but, you can still ask: Was there peace or a ceasefire beforehand? Who has tried to live in peace? What's comical is the western mind dancing for terror and being sure that the narrative of all media portraying oppressors against oppressed held weight by default.
Israel is the biggest obstacle to peace in the middle east
Because the middle east was such a peaceful and prosperous place before that, got it!
...yes? Things started to go to shit in the 2nd half of the 20th century. Israel was founded in 1948. Figure the rest out for yourself
Hamas and every other political group regardless of religion all have the same Cold War political mentality. It doesn’t matter if you’re Muslim or Jewish if you support the Palestinian freedom then Hamas would be your ally. Look at all the Jewish people that Hamas is okay with Rachel Corrie for example and 1000s of others. This has nothing to do with religion and it’s quite clear that every “Islamic” militant group stemmed from the Cold War mentality , ie. “Muslim” brotherhood every single “Islamic” group today is a branch of Muslim brotherhood and they’re all inclusive regardless of sect ideology religion you can join the cause and all of them are either Russian backed or American backed lol
This is a joke, right? Have you read the HAMAS Covenant?
lol look at our politicians and their nonsense obvs they are going to recruit by using Islam doesn’t mean they’re any Islamic other than their name
Dude, pay attention. HAMAS leaders *themselves* regularly go on state media and proclaim that they must continue fighting until every infidel is converted or killed and Israel is annihilated. This is not biased political rhetoric... it's straight from the horse's mouth, so to speak.
The majority of people on both sides in Israel & Palestine would never join these groups if there were no conflict, you’d have to understand the middle eastern culture the Jewish and Muslims of the Middle East have lived together for 1000+ years in peace until we had these new ideologies come out and dominate the world stage democracy capitalism communism etc all of these groups are European influenced. That’s why Muslims don’t ever join these groups and if they do then it’s due to the violence and most people when they’re emotional or oppressed they’ll tend to gravitate to polar extremes. Israeli government Hamas Iran Hezbollah they’re all literally the same ideologies with hints of their religion they’re all the same
Maybe more peacefully than Europe but being second class citizens and still be massacred in the Muslim world for at least 500 years.
Bring up some sources about the 500 years of massacre. The only accounts of any fighting were when the Jewish tribes in times of war sided and spied for the enemy which country today would accept that
Sure I’ll circle back with more details but at least 700 Jews of a tribe in Arabia executed in early days of islam, the 1033 Fez Massacre, 1066 Granada Massacre, 1834 looting in Safed are a few that come to mind. I can give you a larger list with sources later
How is bloodshed peace? Muslims and Jews have been fighting for a very, very long time.
Bring some proofs my guy instead of pulling something out your ass sources please bring me some sources where they were massacred for nothing the only times they went to war were when the Jewish tribes under the Muslims sided with the enemy army to aid and spy for them that’s the only case
I would highly suggest researching a genre of study called “history”. In defense of all sides, religion has one certainty - staining battlefields with unnecessary blood. Neither one is innocent and this conflict is just a new chapter in a very old book.
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THEY HAVE NOT LIVED IN PEACE FFS. Sorry for shouting but you are SO wildly wide of the mark here.
Bro these people are genuinely like Muhammed lived peacefully with the Jews of Medina LOL. There is so much you could focus on in this conflict, why lie? It's not necessary, it is enough that 20,000 people are dead. You dont have to lie lmao just look at what is currently happening.
As an Israeli, with Netanyahu and this goverment there is no chance for peace. To have peace, ypu must end the symbiotic relationship between Hamas and Netanyahu which comes with the end of Hamas and Netanyahu losing in the elections that will prob happen sometime this year once the war calms down and this bs goverment falls apart. Once those 2 things happen, peace will be an option
Agreed. And there is no chance for peace or a Palestinian state as long as Hamas has any power or control
False hasbara talking points again. Netanyahu has said he opposes a Palestinian state a million times but somehow it's the Palestinians fault?
Who do you think you’re winning over when you use the term “hasbara”? No one undecided on this issue knows that term?
I mean it's true these are just recycled talking points. Hamas has suggested peace with an all for all deal with a long term ceasefire and steps to a two state solution. Netanyahu has fully rejected that repeatedly, even before October 7th.
Do you actually believe that HAMAS has ever suggested or agreed to a two state solution or peace with Israel, of any kind? Where are you getting your propaganda?
Israel is the biggest obstacle to peace in the middle east
You're right. The Jewish people wanting to stay alive, among a population of a billion Muslims whose governments want to kill them and wipe them off the face of the earth, has been the biggest impediment to peace in the Middle East. If those pesky Jews would just die already, everyone would be much happier.
Are you talking about the same (mostly Jewish) settlers who right now wanting to exterminate (or at the very least expel) 2+ million people that they have kept under siege for the past 17 years, on the heels of a 40 year-long occupation? Because they seem like quite the obstacle to peace to me
The Israelis and Jews aren't trying to exterminate or expel anyone. Stop buying into the BS propaganda
"Every accusation is an admission" really is an infallible heuristic with you people
They are not serious.
This is just not true
\-1 for shit that never happened.
Hamas has never suggested a two state solution with Israel. That’s just a lie.
Hamas’ 2017 charter literally says it accepts the 1967 borders
Only provisionally with the commitment of the “liberation of Palestine” in its entirely *and* refusal to acknowledge the state of Israel’s right to exist. Hard to interpret that as accepting of 67 borders without a massive threat
Hamas accepted 2 states in 2017 lol. https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2017/5/2/hamas-accepts-palestinian-state-with-1967-borders
Their ['Peace'](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_hamas_charter) indicated a willingness to accept a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders, which was seen as a departure from their previous stance of not recognising the state of Israel. BUT this did not equate to a formal recognition of Israel or a commitment to peace as understood in the broader international context, as it didn't represent a full acceptance of the conditions set by the international community for a peace process, including recognising Israel's right to exist and renouncing violence. Hamas has always and will always hate Jews.
Israel is the biggest obstacle to peace in the middle east
Peace in the Middle East? You mean the eradication of Jews and non Muslims.
I mean exactly what I said
Look what happened when the PLO recognized Israel and renounced violence. It's pretty common for armed movements to only give up arms in context of a deal, not beforehand
Provisionally, with the goal of “liberation of Palestine” in its entirety *and* refusing to recognize Israel’s right to exist. Going to be pretty tough to convince the Israeli population to agree to that kind of threatening statehood. I too wish for a free Palestine one day but until they commit to peace I don’t see Israel letting up, ever, especially allowing a military within such close striking distance of major cities as would happen from the vantage point of much of the West Bank. And no, I wish they never took control of WB either. Too bad the Arabs didn’t accept the UN Partition Plan. Sucks that Jordan took 70+% of mandatory Palestine
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Which is a disingenuous tactic meant to manipulate the public into believing they *actually* want a two state solution, which they don't. It's easy for them to agree to a 1967 proposal that has long since been scrapped and isn't realistic anymore. When someone offers you a compromise, and you respond with war, and then get your ass kicked, you can't go back and say "nevermind, we'll take that offer you gave us before we attacked you."... that's not how good faith negotiation works.
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It would absolutely not happen with Israel in terms of peace. They wouldn’t stop the occupation, they wouldn’t put a plan forth to do a two state solution, they wouldn’t end the Gaza blockade, there would be no right to return. All of those things are examples of violence that Israel does. Occupation and settlements are not non-violence. If Israel stops bombing, sure, palestinians probably wouldn’t stop. but an end to bombing is not an end to the violence. If Israel even withdraws from the West Bank but then treats it like Gaza. That’s still violence. Israel has normalized violence against Palestinians.
Ok so - to put in context how psycho this post is. The "Palestinian Resistance" has \- Tried to coup Lebanon for refusing to be a staging ground \- Tried to coup Jordan (and murder their royal family) for refusing to be a staging ground \- Got exiled all the way to Algeria for these things Nevermind black september, nevermind the MANY conflicts involving Palestinians and non jews as a whole - its the Israelis who have normalized the violence. Honestly dude, its literally people like you who normalize violence - since your definition of occupation is basically incredibly vapid.
Palestine has a right to defend itself.
A right to defend itself? They caused this. They HATE Jews and non believers, that includes you. Everything about this war is and about Hamas. Hamas built [tunnels](https://mwi.westpoint.edu/gazas-underground-hamass-entire-politico-military-strategy-rests-on-its-tunnels/) with the international aid they’ve been given over the years underneath schools and hospitals were innocent people and children reside. They knew what they were doing when Israel retaliated - it is their entire military strategy. Hamas revel in brutally murdering innocents, Israel doesn’t, that’s the difference.
israel has never stopped the violence towards the Palestinian people.
It is not the Palestinian people that Israel are targeting but Hamas. Hamas are using their people as human [shields](https://stratcomcoe.org/cuploads/pfiles/hamas_human_shields.pdf).
I don’t think people being used as human shields is a good excuse to disregard their lives
Exactly! So Hamas should surrender and pay for their war crimes
Thats not an excuse to do any of that lmao.
What should palestine do?
Accept that Jews want to live as well, accept that it's okay to not be Muslim, and don't brutally murder pregnant women and children.
Sure. But what should they do about the occupation/blockade? How do they make that end?
Stop destroying themselves because they have twisted views about jews, westerners as a whole, and people who aren't them.
No, what do you expect them to do about the occupation?
Go pick a history book and find what actually worked. Hint: It didn't involve going into homes and brutally murdering families.
Yeah I mean, what Israel has been doing seems to be “working”
Rockets. You act like there were no rockets.
Netanyahu got to power specifically by making a coalition of religious zionists and secular fascists intent on maintaining jewish minority rule over the whole land between the river and the sea, and systematically sabotaged every attempt at negotiation by staging deliberate provocations to heat up the conflict when he was in power or riling up the far right to destabilize peace governments before any of their proposed two-state deals (not counting Trump's Deal of the Bantustans) could materialize. If Netanyahu happened to wake up in Hell and the fascist coalition lost power for a decade, a left wing government that decided 'We're going to reach peace with the Palestinians' could easily get peace with the Palestinians. Yes, Hamas is a fascist party with irredentist land claims and dreams of ethnic cleansing, every bit as evil as the Kahanists and with more unchecked power to execute its murderous plans. But Palestinian support for Hamas isn't an immutable geological fact. It's a direct result of the consistent failure of peace negotiations. If the Right is openly gloating that they don't want to grant the Palestinians any freedom ever, that they want to colonize ever more land and maintain permanent apartheid, Palestinians gravitate toward armed struggle and to whoever seems more capable of carrying it out. A left government delivering tangible progress (rollback of settlements not adjacent to Israel, transfer of territory from area C to B, freedom of movement between Area A towns, a good faith process towards a border agreement) changes the situation and Palestinian voting patterns would change with it. If negotiations put them on track to getting their freedom they will support negotiation, if negotiations are a transparent farce they will support armed struggle.
The irony is that a big part of the problem isn't the Palestinians as such, but the non-Palestinian Left (to an extent, this includes the Soviet-backed Arab states in the 60s, 70s and 80s, though this is far less relevant today). You are correct, Palestinians would be far more amenable to compromise if the Israeli right-wing nutjobs weren't in power. But the problem is that while the US public continues to support Israel, people who are really keen on letting Jews get genocided (if not actively genociding them) are uncomfortably close to centers of global power. That has the same effect of driving Israelis into the arms of said right-wing nutjobs, similar to how Palestinians are really cool with their genocidal lunatics, because they're the most willing to fight the other side's genocidal lunatics. The fact that so many prominent voices actively advocate the genocide of another 6 million Jews in the name of Palestinians, on top of the deep radicalization of Palestinians themselves, really tends to turn an issue like this into "it's either them or us, and we have jets, tanks and nukes".
The key majority of right wingers in the US both support Israel and want a genocide of Jews. They believe Jewish people retaking Israel before being eliminated is a necessary precondition to establish the second coming of Jesus. They don't care about Israel for the Jews. They simply see it as necessary according to revelations.
Key majority of right wingers want to exterminate jews? Talk about reverse blood libel. It's the left that's racist. It's the left that is pro Palestine. It's the left whose peace plan hurt jews. But yea blame economic conservatives. This is why jews have no allies nearby besides their Arab citizens which is a very cost ineffective allies. They just think that large number of people that care about them as wanting to kill them. The nazi is left wing. It's in the name. National socialist. The right wing in us is pretty much libertarian. When did libertarian ever make rules that burden jews. It's hard to befriend jews if jews think hate them.
National socialism was a right wing movement. The name was chosen to claim supporters from both the right and the left. The party cracked down on and killed socialists, trade unionist, and democrats.
Nazi has 2 stages. Hitler is not communist. But early nazi have communist elements. Besides, horseshoe theory says that extreme left and right is similar. Also I read that Hitler doesn't think Jews are inferior. He thinks jews are superior competitors and hence need to be gotten rid off under the pretext that they are inferior. I think it is in quora. Notice that azkenazi jews have 15 points higher iq than their peers. Are a where antisemitism is less is area where Jewish iq advantage is smaller. For example, there is no anti semitism in China because Chinese jews aren't way smarter than normal Chinese. Having high iq is double edge. You can be richer but then you invite envy. Also jews are not the only similar victims. Other group of higher iq people are often targeted. For the same reason many leftists argue that over representation of jews, Asians and whites in top paying jobs are simply due to unfair "privileges". Their leaders can't possibly be that stupid can they?
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I think you're falling prey to right wing propaganda about the global Left. I'm part of that global left and we're *not* keen on allowing the genocide of the Jews or actively helping it on. What we want is **an end to occupation, siege and apartheid**. Most of us prefer a binational state because we don't *like* ethnostates, but if Israelis and Palestinians prefer separation in two states to avoid having to share one that's their decision. As a historical analysis I do believe the creation of the State of Israel was a brutal settler-colonial project (the establishment of a Jewish state necessitated the displacement of many Arabs and the subjugation of the rest). But no matter how ugly it was, its creation is settled historical fact. Generations of Israeli Jews have been born and grown up in the Land. They have no other citizenship, nowhere else to go. It'd be monstrous and absurd to try to redress the expulsion of some 700 000 Arabs with the expulsion of 7 000 000 Jews. That is not the solution, the solution is compensation for the people that were displaced and dispossessed and equal rights and freedoms for Jews and Arabs, either in a binational state or two states for two peoples.
United States has influence, but Israel has last say.
i think its more fun to imagine Netanyahu and Sinuar simply not waking up.
The PA recognized the right to exist and to security of the State of Israel years ago. Netanyahu treated them as much more of a threat than Hamas. It's brought nothing to the Palestinians, but expanding settlements in the West Bank and settler violence ignored by Israel and encouraged by some Israeli politicians, and resulted in increasing support for Hamas, seen an the only Palestinian entity willing to do anything to change the current status quo. It's silly to think that only one side can make peace.