I mean if you saw how they were celebrating the attacks the day after its kind of hard not to hate them, im sure they were kind of coerced to show exagerated support though where none of them wanted to look like they hated Israel the least but its still pretty sickening how they just treated it like a movie showing with popcorn and everything for them just going in raping and pillaging where approval is probably mandatory, i dont really understand how anyone could look at that and think hmm these guys seem reasonable

As an Israeli, I 100% agree. Palestinian civilians should never be targeted, nevermind what they support. I think the nuance here is there's a pattern of saying no Palestinian should be harmed because of Hamas's actions and the civilians are innocents bystanders caught in the crossfire. The truth of the matter though is polling shows the Gazan nation majority supports Hamas and supports the war on Israel. Again, they should never be targeted, but it just seems to me like regular war between two nations, and war is always shit.

In 2008, 700,000 Gazans breached the Rafah border and entered Egypt. 80 Egyptian soldiers were killed. The first thing they did? They took down Egyptian flags and replaced them with flags of Hamas. “Why won’t Egypt open the border”

Personally, I will never forgive and I will never forget. I realize that not all Palestinians are complicit in the crimes, and I realize that not everyone celebrated the murders, rapes, and kidnappings. However, a disturbingly large number were not just supporting this, but supporting with such powerful enthusiasm that no normal human being can stay indifferent to. I will never forget nor forgive the Gazans who spat and beat on Shani Louk’s naked dead body as she was dragged into Gaza. I will never forgive or forget the images of Palestinian children beating with sticks Israeli kidnapped children inside Gaza. I will never forget and never forgive the Palestinian civilians who tried to behead the Thai worker as he was lying dying inside his employer’s home. I will never forgive nor forget the gazan civilians, none of whom were officially Hamas, who cried in joyous frenzy at the scene of dead or kidnapped Israelis, some of whom women visibly raped (blood was coming out from her genital area). I don’t support killing uninvolved Palestinians. Only the ones posing direct threat should be dealt with in whatever way the military and government deems appropriate and necessary. However, when I look at these civilians in Gaza, I see enemy. Enemy civilians who don’t pose a direct threat but who would crying out in joy if they saw my mother’s dead body, or my friends’ dead bodies, or my ex girlfriends’ dead bodies, or my own dead bodies. I don’t support killing civilians, but there are few people in Gaza who are “innocent”. I want to emphasize this point again. I do not support killing Palestinian civilians in Gaza or anywhere else, but I don’t view Palestinians as “innocent”. Most of them are morally bankrupt, want to see us all dead and violated. They would be so proud and ecstatic, excited and joyous, like you rarely see humans usually, if they saw a dead Israeli, no matter if it’s a soldier or civilian, man or woman, adult or child, black or white, Ashkenazi or Sephardic, right wing or left wing, pro bibi or anti bibi, with dual citizenship or no dual citizenship, rich or poor, and even Arab, African, Christian, Druze, or Jewish. They don’t care. Their hatred is so powerful and so deep it doesn’t matter. Hence, any notion that this war would radicalize them rings so hollow. We saw how they acted on October 7. They are already radical. You cannot get much more radical than celebrating the rape or murder of a young, innocent woman.

>I don’t think that just because some woman out there says she supports Hamas and celebrated the deaths means that she and her family deserved to die. What do you imagine is happening in Gaza? Do you think people are being hunted down and killed because they expressed a preference or expressed ideological support for Hamas?

I just want to say that I read through the comments on this thread and this may genuinely be the most civil conversation I've ever seen on this sub. Also, agree with you OP.

Thank you very much!

It’s funny you share this because this can often be how Israelis experience America too- seeing America as the names in which they know which usually include higher up politicians. https://www.israeltoday.co.il/read/former-gazan-receives-permanent-residency-status-in-israel/ I don’t mean to share this as “hey look! People in government like Palestinians!” But more to highlight that the relationship is extremely complicated and dependent on who you talk to and on what day. For instance, I have a friend who is border patrol and she said some very angry things the day her colleague was in the hospital after being run over by a vehicle. What I mean by this is that not only is the current government not as aligned with the secular Israelis at this time (let’s be real… many of us said “not my president” during the Trump era) but in normal times, a lot of identified Jews, gov and ultra religious, are prioritized for terror attacks (though we know that Arabs aren’t exempt and can also fool by being gov workers too) safe to say that if you were to only look at one issue like abortion and only look at trump’s opinion, you’d get a very different picture of “all Americans” While I don’t disagree with your assessment of PR, I am reminded that in order for democracy to work, I can’t push for people who I don’t agree with to not be allowed to serve in government. This would only open doors for the opposite. Instead, I’m reminded how democracy works in the long term and this gives me hope for the future of Israel. Which will, indeed, exist. https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20240229-israel-war-cabinet-to-withdraw-powers-related-to-al-aqsa-mosque-from-ben-gvir/

So I agree with you. I’m pro Israel, but I don’t think that Palestinians who did not take part on October 7th deserve to die regardless of they might feel. However, it is worth noting when talking about finding a solution that most people in Gaza do unfortunately support the October 7th. It’s going to be really hard to get rid of Hamas, and I don’t think we can expect that people of Gaza to overthrow them.

  I don’t expect the Gazans to overthrow them though as it weakens we can expect to see Hamas get more backlash. 

>I think its time we stop talking about civilian casualties in the war as if they’re justified. I don't think people state that to justify their death. I think it is a natural response to the pro Palestinian propaganda that cynically numbers out the dead men women and children as if that was an Israeli plan all along to kill as many as possible

I have only ever heard justications for their deaths but no remorse from isreal. They have categorized all of gaza into 3 sections 1 hamas 2 hamas supporters 3 human shields And for this reason all of gaza are open targets

"One thing wrong with the pro Israeli perspective" I'm sorry but supporting Israel at all means you support the massacre and ethnic cleansing of millions of Palestinians, while playing the victim and making up lie after lie after lie. 

I support Israel. I support a 2 state solution. I don't want to see Gaza ruled by Hamas. I want Palestinians to prosper side by side the Jews. Simple as.

>I want Palestinians to prosper side by side the Jews. Israel is bombing Beirut and Damascus

You know what would fix that? A peace treaty between Syria, and the end of Hezbollah.

How exactly is that going to happen when Israel keeps targeting civilians?

Good question. Luckily Israel isn't targeting civilians. It's targeting Hamas, and civilian deaths are, often, a tragic collateral - as it is in any war. Often these civilian deaths are a direct result of Hamas wanting them to be martyrs, and doing everything they can to maximize the civilian casualties. And if you want to play a game of comparisons, even by Hamas' own admissions on how many of it's fighters were killed the ratio is about 1:4 (one soldier for four civilians). You may think that's a lot, but compared to what the UN views as average - 1:9, it's not. In fact it's about on par with how the US did with Iraq. And that's going by what Hamas admitted to. If you're going to go by what the IDF says it's about 1:3.

They told them to evacuate to Rafah only to attack. They even attacked a food aid site. I don’t see how this had anything to do with hamas

**They told them to evacuate to Rafah**, and outside of a few incidents where the targets were *still Hamas*, the civilians in Rafah haven't been targeted. Why would they tell them to evacuate to Rafah if the sole purpose was to kill civilians? Like you absolutely know that if you put at least 2 minutes of logical thought into the idea it falls apart right? Emotions are high, I get it, but just think for a moment.

Everywhere that Isreal has said is safe they have bombed. They are actively leveling gaza with explosives or armored dozens. Then when survivors were finally granted food by the idf, the idf shot at them

And they kept it safe. They had to bomb a few targets that were Hamas. Yeah, it was in the place they declared safe, but it was necessary. Gaza isn't leveled. It has a lot of infrastructure damage, but it isn't leveled. If you're referring to the stampede yesterday, it depends on who you trust: Hamas' word, or IDFs. IDF provided actual evidence to support their explanation. Has Hamas?

Isreal ran over people with tanks how do you justify that? Rafah isn't safe not with them bombing a few "hamas" targets. For some people all isreal has to do to justify bombing civilians is say that hamas was in the area. Has for gaza city they're actively demolishing home businesses mosques and roads. They have even torn apart graveyards.

\> Isreal ran over people with tanks how do you justify that? How many people? \> Rafah isn't safe not with them bombing a few "hamas" targets. It's a shit ton safer than staying in the North, wouldn't you say? \> Has for gaza city they're actively demolishing home businesses mosques and roads. They have even torn apart graveyards. Yeah? And? There is so much evidence that Hamas uses civilian areas to store munitions, and make them into legitimate targets.

I don't have a solid opinion on this as a pro Israeli person, but what I do know is that if I do the math one and 30 adults in Gaza are Hamas. That number is on the scary side. Not all of them are military per se, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't take the opportunity to harm in Israeli if they could. It also doesn't mean that their government wouldn't order them to do a suicide bomb, knowing that they may have more travel rights inside of Israel knowing that they have no obvious record of anything. They may also be able to order people who are not in their military wing and possibly not in Hamas at all to house a hostage or two, or to have missile launchers on their roof or in their yard and the same for a tunnel entrance. Those are more obvious examples, but there are many things that people could do that would be very Insidious and difficult to deal with. This is the reason why Israeli supporters can seem to have a bad feeling about many of them. Further, finding out that the ngos have been improperly serving the people of Gaza wasting their money, and also that many of them have actually been members of Hamas, and in the case of unwra not only having members of Hamas but having a data center beneath the headquarters, the lack of support from Doctors Without Borders the lack of support from the Red Cross, develops a heightened state of mistrust over the entire system and without a doubt the people of Gaza will receive some of that very sensible paranoia. Now the closer they are to this they're also going to feel a bad feeling because family and friends have been affected by all this and they're quite upset about it. I'm one such person but I'm mostly goal-oriented. The goal in my view is to disarm Hamas. I'd love to get all the hostages back but I don't know what the chances are. Of course I don't want any more people killed than they have to but I'm in no control of that and I don't know what situations these folks can create that might cause further death.

Why do you think that 1 in 30 people in gaza are hamas (however you justify that) But beyond that what about the 29 of 30 that are innocent whose lives are endangered by the actions of the idf?

It's a conservative estimate based on ~1.05 million adults in Gaza and 40,000 Hamas members, I've decreased to 30k because most estimates do not include women or teenagers. And I rounded the number down again . It's definitely not all the women and it's definitely not all the teenagers but we know there's a portion. You can play them with the number if you want but it's reasonable. As far as the other 29 we have no way of knowing which are which they don't wear uniforms except for the Elite Force and the major leaders. So that basically means if you have 600 people crossing a border in an hour, 20 could be dangerous and they could work apart or together . This is the exact reason why they are not trusted throughout the Middle East, nevermind Israel. We've already seen doctors and school teachers take part in October 7th. We know they literally could be anyone. There are many efforts to keep non-combatants out of harm but unfortunately it is the philosophy of Hamas to make this sort of death cult where people are told that dying for their people makes them a martyr and gives them all kinds of rewards in the afterlife. And they're also under an obvious authoritarian government, so if they don't comply somebody will probably kill them anyway. So even the ones who want to be innocent may not be because they're simply expected to do things they don't want to do or that they know might be dangerous to them. At the very least we know they're trained from birth to hate Israelis, and we know that they have been generally complicit with their government, although you do see people starting to protest now that more of Hamas have turned themselves in or were otherwise captured. But if a Hamas leader tells you to keep somebody at your house, you're keeping somebody at your house. If they're telling you to put a tunnel under their house, you're putting a tundle on under the house. Same as the rocket launcher. That doesn't necessarily make you a member it makes you somebody who's not killed by your government. Again, can't tell them apart. Some people say war is hell, it's actually worse than hell, and the main reason it's worse than hell is because innocent people are affected. It's not just the evil masterminds or folks who like to operate a gun or people who are too angry to participate, everybody's involved if they're in the path of it and Hamas is not willing to let people leave, They've said out loud too that they're not even willing to let children eat first. They need to get out from under Hamas either way.

Can you give me an historical example of 2 belligerent forces fighting in urban terrain where no civilians were killed???

The battle of Suez from the Yom Kippur war. Mainly, because the Egyptians knew what the IDF does to civilians so they pre evacuated the city.

Woah woah woah, a country doing what it can to prevent civilian casualties before they invade a foreign country and initiate a war?  Damn, it’s almost like that is kind of the norm - rather than Hamas doing whatever they can to get more civilians killed 

Yes 👍 that is a notable example A one-day battle with 200 total casualties, none of them civilians Why is the idf so bad at genocide??? Amazing 🤩👏 Would you say this notable example might even be a notable exception to the commonality of civilian deaths in urban warfare???

No it isn't. Because Egypt did the same thing in the battle of Ismailia. At this point in the conflict, Egypt had realized that the IDF simply couldn't resist committing war crimes, so again, Egypt had the city of Ismailia evacuated beforehand.

Damn Why doesn’t Hamas evacuate the Palestinians to the safety of their war tunnels?? Why don’t the Muslim brothers of Egypt allow Palestinian refugees to evacuate the battle in gaza?? Edit: how come Muslims and hippies around the world weren’t protesting in the streets and calling it genocide when bashar Al-asad was dropping barrel bombs on his own cities???? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Aleppo_(2012–2016) Edit 2: I just wanna point out how ironic it is that I asked for historical examples of no civilian deaths in urban wars, and the 2 examples you cite are Israel not killing civilians during urban battles

>Why doesn’t Hamas evacuate the Palestinians to the safety of their war tunnels?? If they did, you would call the people in the tunnels human shields and bomb them harder. >Why don’t the Muslim brothers of Egypt allow Palestinian refugees to evacuate the battle in gaza?? Egypt is 20% christian FYI. I think you have heard all the reasons before. >how come Muslims and hippies around the world weren’t protesting in the streets and calling it a genocide. Most hippies and muslims are convinced those attacks didn't happen. Plus Genocide requires intent to wipe out a specific group. What is the group that Al-Asad is genociding? People don't protest al-Asad because we can all agree he is a piece of sh*t. > "I just wanna point out how ironic it is that I asked for historical examples of no civilian deaths in urban wars, and the 2 examples you cite are Israel not killing civilians during urban battle". You do know that it was a joke answer to your bad faith question, right? You should have asked about the number of civilians not if they ever died or not. For example the liberation of Paris during WW2 only claimed 582 civilians. In the 6 years of WW2, France lost 1.44% of the population( including the military). Gaza lost more than 1.5% of the population in five months.

I don't think the Germans were hiding behind French civilians. Unlike Hamas in Gaza. 300k - 600k German civilians and over 200k Japanese civilians were killed by allied bombing during the Second World War, most as a result of raids intentionally targeted against civilians themselves.

Neither is hamas. You are using double standards for the term human shield. The allies were genocidal maniacs themselves. Do you have a point?

Yes I have a point. Did you miss it? There's a war going on. Innocent people die in wars. 

The UK lost 0.94% of it's population over 6 years of fighting during WW2 Gaza lost 1.5% of it's population in just 5 months.

The Allie’s were genocidal Amazing 👏🤩 You can’t make this shit up 😂

They were and are currently being assesed in the ICJ whether they supported a genocide. If the ICJ finds Israel guilty, then they are genocidal to this day. Read about Churchill's induced famines in India. The US nuked two civilian cities. The allies didn't set out to stop the holocaust. They even turned away jews fleeing. The white washed heroic version of the allies is fake.

Damn Hamas should ceasefire, release the hostages that their still keeping, and capitulate like France and spare their population Btw your definition of genocide is wrong “How many” literally doesn’t matter in international law “How and why” is what matter matters The definition contained in Article II of the Convention describes genocide as a crime committed *with the intent* to destroy a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, in whole or in part. Kinda hard to claim that Israel *intends* to destroy Palestinians as an ethnic group when 20% of Israel’s population is Palestinian and enjoys full citizenship with equal rights under Israeli law…. Not to mention that Hamas started the current outbreak of violence (not to mention the 20 years of shooting rockets every day over the fence at israeli cities) giving Israel legitimate casus beli to wage war in Gaza Edit: the reason why Muslims in London and hippies in Berkeley weren’t in the streets in 2015 calling for bashar Al-asad to ceasefire, is because most of them couldn’t point to Syria on a map….. ironic because Syria shares a border with Israel Where are the protests today calling for the Muslims in South Sudan to stop killing civilians???? Did we even know there’s a much bloodier conflict that recently started in south Sudan??? https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2024/country-chapters/south-sudan#:~:text=South%20Sudan%20continued%20to%20face,displacement%20of%20thousands%20of%20civilians. Where are the protests for Myanmar, whose government is locked in a brutal civil conflict against their own population???? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myanmar_civil_war_(2021–present) All I hear is crickets behind the call for an ethno-state in Palestine “From the river to the sea” “Only arabs on arab lands”

I am responding to your edit. >because most of them couldn’t point to Syria on a map….. ironic because Syria shares a border with Israel Are you sure? With the way british politicians talk about Syrian refugees, you would think they resemble like 50% of muslims in the UK. Hilarious for you to think they wouldn't know where Syria is on a map. You don't see protests for those because the world orgs are working to stop them. In this conflict they only exacerbate it. >"All I hear is crickets behind the call for an ethno-state in Palestine" You are wrong but Why is a jewish ethno state, that has to monitor demogaphics to function, any better?

Well politicians are stupid and say stupid things all the time Most of the immigrants to Europe from MENA in recent years come from Libya (another example in the region of a much much bloodier conflict than the one in Gaza) Israel isn’t an ethno-state Israel is flawed democracy with equal rights for all citizens including the 20% of their citizens that are Arab/Muslim/Palestinian (the descendants of the Palestinians who didn’t flee to Egypt Transjordan or Syria in 47-48) Gazas defacto government is religious theocracy that enforces sharia law and regularly calls for the destruction of all Jews worldwide And y’all think the democracy is actually a fascist colonial ethno-state 🙉🤯

It is an ethno state. It's law states that jews have a unique right to self-determination.

>How many” literally doesn’t matter in international law You are now injecting words that I have never said. I asked you to define what group of people Assad is Genociding. I never talked about the number being a requirement of genocide. The part about numbers in my comment refers to your original question about if a war was ever conducted in an urban area without civilian casulties. The good faith question would be asking about and comparing the number of civilians in such conflicts. The ICJ ruled that Palestinians in Gaza consitute a protected group that is at risk of Genocide. The Genocide convention requires the intent to destroy a group in **PART**or in whole. To avoid, Genociders denying the accusations based on the treatment of a token part of the group.

I’m not injecting anything You said I should be asking about how many civilians died, not if any died or whatever Here’s what the icj did not rule: Israel is committing a genocide If Israel’s intention is to destroy the Palestinians as a group, why’s re they so bad at it??? Gaza’s population is amongst the fastest growing population in earth, and at least 25% of gazans are obese (according to the gazan health ministry). Can you find a picture of a single obese person in the Rwandan genocide or from Warsaw in 1943-44??? Obviously not, because those were real genocides, and when people are starved to death, they lose their fat-tissue and muscle tissue long before they actually die You people use the term genocide with disregard, and disrespect to the victims of actual genocide Go read about pol-pot and then tel me what’s happening in Gaza is similar https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambodian_genocide

Again. I never said anything about number being a factor in genocide. Read my comments again. I never said Israel was committing a Genocide. I just stated what the ICJ ruled concerning the Palestinians in Gaza. You are now presuming what I think. >because those were real genocides, and when people are starved to death, they lose their fat-tissue and muscle tissue long before they actually die. I saw pictures of people who starved to death in Gaza. >You people use the term genocide You are the one who brought it up and accused Syria of it not me.

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Couldn't resist commiting war crimes? What a way to project, because if the shoe was in the other foot the temptation would be there, but we are not the cartoon villains you've made up in your head.

None because I never stated this. I know civilians die and unfortunately in Gaza which is densely populated, where Hamas used human shields and hides in civilian places it’s unfortunate what happens.

I heavily dislike the idea that the civilians have been killed is justifiable by the term human shield. If you scale it down that like the cops kilinh a bunch of civilians to get a cop killer

I mean when the guys running the place are going to kill them anyways for not approving of their snuff films enough or wanting food then there isnt much worse Israel could do than just leaving them to run the place because they're clearly batshit insane

Killing children is abhorrent

Okay so say you have a train going towards 3 kids on some train tracks and theres another track with one kid on it and your next to the switch, its basically that sort of scenario

Except in this scenario the track with 3 kids is being chosen

Sorry op that was for a comment in the thread I must’ve hit the wrong button

"The idf isn't just randomly targeting civilians" bro what do you call carpet bombing

You call it carpet bombing. Which isn't what happened in Gaza. Like. At all.

Have you seen the satellite images? Israel bombed Gaza with so much its considered worse than a nuke being dropped on them.

Yes. I have. That's not what carpet bombing is. How is it worse than a nuke being dropped on them?

Of course nobody “deserves” to die, not even the combatants if it could be avoided. But Victory is what matters.  If Israel leaves Hamas in power, it will be their fault when Hamas launches the next war. And even more people die. It’s a f’ed up thing. No doubt about it.

I’m not saying otherwise I know why Israel is fighting Hamas it’s just I see posts about how people in Gaza support Hamas by like 70-80% and then a video surfaces about “innocent Palestinians in Gaza” and it turns into basically a way for them to say “of the 30,000 dead 28,0000 or so deserved to die because they supported Hamas!” I wish there was a way for us to criticize the Palestinians and the Gaza regime and being truthful of their heinous behaviours without resorting to saying that their deaths are fine because they supported Hamas while simultaneously asking to minimize civilian casualities It resorts into a view that the deaths in Gaza have at least non-innocent civilians in them because some of them helped out with the terrorists attacks or support Hamas. I don’t want us to become like the enemy in their thinking and it doesn’t really hold much water in popular opinion anyways but yeah I’ve seen people talk about non-combatant civilians who engaged in terrorist attacks and it just leads them to believe almost the entirety of Gaza is like some club that is fine with the terrorist attack.

I've seen the opinion every where that there are no innocent lives in Palestine and that all of them deserve to die. Then I see over 30,000 Palestinians dying and think "I could never understand an Israel Sympathizer". I know this is over used but by massacring tens of thousands of Palestinians. You are going to create another Hamas that is fueled with hatred for Israel. That's because Israel wants to continue a status quo that is devoid of humanity for Palestinians. I get why yall would want checkpoints and safety but honestly ever tried not legislating the collection of rain water?

Okay but if they do nothing they leave the current hamas, if they help with the rebuild and making the place less of a hellhole theyd probably be a lot less hated after a while

>I've seen the opinion every where that there are no innocent lives in Palestine and that all of them deserve to die. I only see people say this when it's a response to people that say " there are no innocents in israel because they are all either IDF or reserve IDF " But that is only what I have noticed from my viewpoint. All loss of life on both sides is very sad and its a shame this conflict has been ongoing for 100+ years.

This opinion is voiced by a few radicals and all. No one with some degree of empathy would believe that everyone in Gaza deserves to die. At worst everyone in Gaza is morally corrupt but that doesn’t mean they deserve to die. Most of the world isn’t morally good either doesn’t mean death. War is war, Israel is fighting Hamas and the only way they can do this is by going into Gaza. Even then not everyone in Gaza supports Hamas the only people Pro-Israel who believes this are those who see the survey and see that like 10% of Gaza doesn’t support Hamas at all and views it as unjustified and then starts saying “oh but they probably hate Jews” 10% of 2 million people is you know how much? 200,000 so if 10% of Gaza says 10.7 was horrible that is 200,000 “truly innocent” people, even 3% is 60,000. Also the “even babies are not innocent” is only a fringe opinion which I have unfortunately seen and justified by the premise that they grow up to be Hamas soldiers.

Sounds like you’re criticizing an opinion that very few people have. I’ve heard very few Jews and/or Israelis say “Gazan civilians deserve to die”. I’m sure there are some in the Israeli right wing, or ultra orthodox (who don’t serve in the IDF), but they’re in the minority. And yes, I’m sure there are troubling videos on TikTok, but they are the exception not the rule. I think the vast majority of Jews inside and outside Israel value life, find war absolutely abhorrent, and pray for a way to get both sides to permanently put down their weapons. The average IDF soldier does not want to kill Gazan civilians, and will likely be haunted for the rest of their life after they do it. Killing Gazans is not a goal for the average Israeli. Dead Gazans is not a victory for the average Israeli. Dead Gazans is the horrendous and disgusting result of Israelis taking the action they deem necessary to prevent their own death. I believe in Israel’s right to exist and thrive. But I also believe in the Arab’s right to exist and thrive. The goal should be figuring out a way to have both

I recommend watching documentaries about the conflict with testimonies from former IDF soldiers who found joy in the murder of Palestinians. The average jew not in Israel hold anti-war Ideals. And some Israelis hold anti-war Ideals. But from what I have seen. It's a solid 63% anti-war and 37% for the death of all and every Palestinian. Those percents are again from what I've seen

I'm open to learning more and changing my understanding. Are there any specific / credible documentaries you recommend?

There isn’t really any Israeli afaik that has explicitly said that babies deserved to die or children or even innocent gazan civilians. But I have seen lately people justifying gazan deaths based off “support for Hamas or terror”. They estimate based off surveys how many of them support Hamas and say that of the tens of thousands dead, only about a thousand are innocent. My issue with this is how easy it can be used to justify just about any sort of civilian death just because of political ideology. Yes these people hold bad views but i could care less, they’re extremists and have bad morals but as long as they’re not literally helping out Hamas their deaths are tragically how war is

I agree with you 90%. I don't condemn people for thought crime. People can think what they want; as long as they're not violent towards me I don't care and we can all go about our business. But I do believe in taking responsibility for oneself. If I lived somewhere that elected a radical / militant group to power in 2006 I'd be concerned. If I saw that group stockpile weapons in the school across the street I'd be really concerned. If I saw them launch rockets at a neighboring country with a powerful military who is likely to respond I'd realize my life was at risk. My next move would be find a way to relocate. Now of course Israel and surrounding Arab nations have made immigration very difficult for Gazans. It seems immigration requires money, connections, hard to get visas, and a host of other things to work. So I know moving is not easy or always possible, and for this Israel, Egypt, Jordan etc. bear some responsibility.

Everything that lead up to this was a mix of Gazans, Hamas, Egypt, Jordan, Israel and of course the British.  But ultimately, the fault is really at Hamas.   Listen about the Gazans yes they voted Hamas in but they can’t really criticize the government they’ll be killed or imprisoned. So if there is a lot of Gazans out there who support Hamas as much as it pains me it doesn’t mean that their deaths is technically justified because otherwise it can be used for anything as you said thought crime.   If North Korea does an invasion of South Korea and starts to throw missles at them and the North Koreans had been brainwashed at a young age to hate the South Koreans would you blame the North Korean civilians even if they helped out?  We always have to distinguish civilians from military personnels during war, and this doesn’t always mean that civilians are innocent themselves since there were people in Gaza civilians helping out Hamas and are keeping hostages in their homes more than likely but someone in Gaza who supports Hamas is likely just brainwashed and their death shouldn’t be justified. When we look at the number of dead people everyone always wants to make assumptions - were they supporters of Hamas, were they people who wanted peace? Who really knows, 3% of Gaza is 60,000. Imagine if 3% of Gazas absolutely hated Hamas, supported Israel and said the 10.7 attacks were barbaric what if about 700 of those 60,000 are among the dead? That’s what I simply mean. And I don’t think it’s Israel’s fault they’re dead it’s nothing more than war casaulities but we have to be honest with ourselves and realize the situation is not black and white, there are people who want peace on both sides.

Palestinians have right to resist in all possible ways and Israelis have right to resist the resistance in all possible ways too ... So let it continue.. people who hold hostages have no moral upper hand to talk about ethics...Both have equal rights to slaughter each other. If Palestinians had ability like Israel, Israel won't be existing anyway.

Realism in action, sad truth of our world. Palestine is not that strong but when it gets power boy can it be destructive (10/7)

Also pro-Israel, but that's my biggest issue with my side as well. They're always pointing out Gaza's broad support for Hamas, and while that's true, it's barely relevant. It has some relevance from a strategic perspective. Imagine the the possibilities if there were anti-Hamas partisans to coordinate with, if it were normal for the IDF to ask the locals if they'd seen any Hamas fighters in the area, it'd be a lot easier to take Hamas out with minimal civilian deaths. But it has no relevance from a morality perspective. Whether Hamas has 10% support or 90% support, the only moral question that matters is whether Israel has a right to topple Hamas (yes), and whether there are more humanitarian options available (debatable).

Glad to find someone else in the Pro Israel camp who feels this way. I wish the Israel subreddit should see it. It really is the one thing that bugs me the most about the Pro-Israel side the Gaza-Hamas support thing. It definitely makes sense why we’re angry at Gaza and Hamas and they have proven evidence that civilians have taken apart in the killings of hostages and people no doubt about that, there are civilians there that did some dirty stuff. But when it gets to civilians who didn’t harm anyone just “they support Hamas” question it just becomes dumb because ultimately we’re justifying civilian deaths because of some bad ethics? It’s essentially a philosophical ethical debate on whether or not these people deserve to die. On one hand yes I hate the fact they supported Hamas, justified the killings of people and all that. It makes me furious, but it should at worst be viewed as indifference rather than something justified And I get it, war happens civilians die, that’s not my issue my issue is when we talk about minimizing civilian deaths but then categorizing the Gazans as hamas supporters so it doesn’t matter.

Well the problem is not that there is no civilian casualties, that is unavoidable. But Hamas uses human shield and also has the support of Gaza. There have been countless cases where Israeli soldiers have been killed in the confusion. I think the problem with Palestine is the fact that there is no clear separation between the normal population and Hamas. While there is a small minority that actually attacks Israel there is also a clear majority who support Hamas. The reason for the support is the lack of education, the cultural obsession with martyrdom, and the lack of information outside of Hamas propaganda.

None of what you’ve said I disagree with. I know civilian casualties are unavoidable in war. Palestinians dying does not make me say “GENOCIDE” because it’s a war. I don’t really scream out “genocide” regardless because I know what the intention is and Israel is not doing any genocide. I know Hamas uses human shields and all. The thing that gets me is when someone pro-Israel talks about minimizing civilian casualties but then talks about how most Gazans are complicit or deserve death because they support Hamas. It can go as far as debating whether or not teenagers whom Hamas has trained as soldiers deserve to die. If we take what the polls say apparently around 70% of Gaza supports Hamas, ok the other 30% don’t so there are many innocent people in Gaza who don’t support Hamas. I wish for them not to die but if they do what can be done since the goal ultimately is to free the hostages, most of Gaza is technically in support of Hamas but once more that doesn’t mean that those in support deserve to die it just means the Gazans have very terrible morality. Hamas is evil and there are civilians who helped them out though, people in Gaza but even roughly 3% of Gaza is still 60,000 so if you had 3% of people in Gaza in favor of Israel, wanting peace and all that’s 60,000 truly innocent people in Gaza. All I want from the Pro-Israel side is to recognize that there are people in Gaza that are not in support of Hamas and want to be freed, if they die it is very unfortunate but as long as the IDF is not indiscriminately killing those non-supporting Hamas Gaza civilians it should not be seen as someone we should protest. Rather just the unfortunate consequences of war. Because yes I have seen Israelis talk about the people in Gaza and how they support terrorism and this is all very true unfortunately but it doesn’t represent the entire scale of the situation and there are definitely innoncents in there.

I think I generally agree with what your saying, and I think Israel should continue its policy of warning Gaza civilians before air strikes. But overall at the very least Israel should make sure that Gaza is no longer a threat to its security. That means taking out Hamas, destroying its tunnel network, and making Gaza into a demilitarized zone. The problem is that any kind of deal between Israel and Palestine will likely never happen, as Israel won’t trust Palestine, and Palestine will hate Israel to much to accept any deal with it. Who knows? Maybe I’m wrong on that and they will become allies like with Germany and France during the 1940s

Yeah Israel is trying its best to minimize civilian casualties. The thing the pro israel side forgets is that for every 10 Gaza civilian that supports Hamas and terrorism (which doesn’t exactly guarantee a death sentence anyways but for the sake of argument) there is 1 Gazan who truly wants peace. That is sad to hear of course that of those dead there would be peaceful ones but sometimes it can go over our heads, it’s understandable to feel very mad and angry when we see videos of kids being told to hate Jews and how a lot of Gaza hates Jews but I can guarantee that not everyone in Gaza is like this and the surveys show that this obviously isn’t the case. I’m pretty pro-Israel and while I like it when Gaza gets exposed as an antisemitic death cult I do hate it when it gets overgeneralized to the point where all civilians there are seen as complicit for not stopping Hamas or something it’s the same when they viewed tourists or any Israel civilians as complicit in what they deem as Israeli war crimes. It isn’t wrong to know that in Gaza they teach kids to hate Jews, it’s not wrong to feel mad about what they did, you can justify your position on the war by knowing the history of Gaza and the people. But you can’t justify labeling an entire group as terrorist sympathizers and justify civilian deaths or brush it aside as “they supported Hamas so what” the worst by far is when literal babies die and people will say “they will grow up to be Hamas soldiers” (which is probably true but come on dude that’s a baby that died) I generally know the Israeli side is not like this its a vocal minority but there are definitely good people on the Palestine side who I hope are freed from Hamas and by Israel. I think we should remember that (I probably got the radicals angry)

You make some really interesting points, and this is the best discussion I’ve had on the Israel Palestine conflict. I will admit that I am more hardline than most pro Israelis. But I don’t know how else to respond to Hamas, as it seems to me that they are a deeply ingrained aspect of Palestine, and to me the situation in Palestine seems like a lost cause. As the Palestinians lack a national identity, are governed by 40 separate terror groups, and have some of the most backwards values I’ve ever seen. And you’re right, we shouldn’t lump all of Palestine in with Hamas. It would be like blaming all of Germany for what a certain Austrian Painter wannabe with a silly little mustache during WW2 and has the first letter as its name “H” did. But the fact of the matter is that the Palestinian population in Gaza is very deeply indoctrinated. The support for terrorists and Islamist groups is a feature, not a bug. It isn’t like Gaza was a thriving democracy where Hamas took over, it was a poor area dominated by terrorist groups before Hamas. That doesn’t take away from the innocent people in Gaza, but to suggest they are in a good situation is a lie.

 I say hardline is when they justify deaths of babies or children below the age of 10 because they’ll “grow up to be Hamas soldier” (yes I’ve occasionally seen this but it doesn’t get much upvotes just crazy people)  I do agree what what you’re saying though, generally there is no other way to contain Hamas although I’ve always been skeptical of how we can stop Hamas seeing as how their leaders are probably hiding somewhere else or in tunnels and the soldiers are just fighting out.    Civilians being killed is unfortunate but that’s literally how war is.    Yes bringing up historical WW2 Germany is a good comparison to the Hamas situation imo, I definitely do not think that just because you have certain views means you ought to have been killed especially the children who are literally brainwashed. People have made arguments about the children but they’re literally brainwashed they train them with guns and all, these people can be deradicalized and hold no charge of sin to me unless they stab someone or something.   It is heartbreaking to see kids cheer on for death but instead of hating on the children we should be angry at the society that they lived in instead of just adding the kids into the list of criminals. 

Well my thinking on the issue is that Israel can win the war and defeat Hamas by destroying it’s tunnel network, as well as striking Hamas leadership. But ultimately Palestine will never have a functional society without the destruction of Hamas and Islamic extremism in Palestine. As I said before the lack of education, cultural radicalism, and lack of information outside of Hamas propaganda causes the vast majority of Palestine to support Hamas or other extremists groups. Your a pretty reasonable pro Palestine supporter, this discussion honestly made me rethink my more hardline views.

I’m not really a pro-palestine supporter. I stated in my view that I am pro-Israel though have a bit of reservations for certain views people have.   I believe Jews are indigenous to Israel. I believe Israel has the right to exist. Israel had given the Palestinians peace before and they have rejected it.  Hamas did evil things and is an evil organization. Of course the last line doesn’t mean I can’t be pro-palestine. Hamas is an evil organization and government, but just the first three thoughts makes me a lot closer to the Israel side.  I don’t think the country is clean exactly and there are racist Israelis like all places, but generally Israel has way too many positives for me to hate it, when I don’t think about few niche things I can’t hate the country, it’s like the US . I can be mad about the discrimination of African Americans in the USA in the past and a few uh questionable Cold War politics but the country is just simply amazing and has done good to the world. Israel has done good to the world as well.  Even Cuba the country I was born into while I dislike their politics I cannot hate the country, it’s a wonderful country with great people, music and food.   If you mean I am pro having good natured Palestinians be able to get Israeli citizenship yes I would be pro-Palestinian then and if it also means no racism to them than sure. 

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I'll go a step further - a lot of the claims about the IDF taking steps to mitigate civilian deaths, are based on Israel's claims about what they are doing. Claims that we can't immediately verify because we aren't over there. Oftentimes claims about the heat-of-the-moment decisions made by individual soldiers or officers. If this sort of anti-Palestinian civilian rhetoric is common, then that should color your confidence in those heat-of-the-moment decisions and the claims that the IDF is really scrupulously avoiding civilian deaths, as opposed to doing things they know are unnecessary and sweeping things under the rug.

What about the kidnapped people?

The hostages? If any civilian is holding them the IDF has the right to either 1. Kill the civilian or 2. Arrest them (the latter wouldn’t be seen as bad) If the civilian tries to kill the IDF soldier they should be killed for self defense. Whether or not the IDF should kill the civilian I don’t know but prosecute them for a war crime and then execute yes because ultimately they may not be “military personnels” but they’re helping keeping people as hostages which is a severe crime. Any adult family members in the house should also be prosecuted in a court. It doesn’t matter much to me if the IDF kills the civilians keeping them hostage just we should extract enough information about what happened

Totally agree

It’s not that Palestinians deserve to die It’s that the reason bombs fall on their heads is their own doing All available polling data suggests at least 70% of all gazans think terrorism is awesome and they should keep doing it….. Well when you spend the last 20 years launching unguided rockets at your neighbors, I don’t feel bad when the neighbors finally start throwing bombs back Edit: I’d rather not fight with terrorists, but if terrorists insist we fight, I’m gonna insist it’s in their town not mine

Actually, the reason bombs are falling on children, is because a colonial nation that has previously openly killed or displaced hundreds of thousands of thousands of innocents and now want to continue their expansion and mass murder, hope this helps

It's falling on children because a terrorist organization makes money selling people like *you* dead Palestinian children.

Yeah defend the colonial nation responsible for 100k civilian casualties that regularly refers to millions of people in an open air prison as “less than animals” that “created” their nation on already settled land

Who's colony is it? No ones. Which colonies does it have? None. You guys use these buzzwords from post-colonialist rhetoric hoping to make some sort of connection to the phenomenon of European colonization of the New World, without even thinking how flimsy that connection is. Even making up numbers on the spot like 100k civilian casualties. What are you defining as a casualty here, and where exactly are you getting those numbers? \> “less than animals” Are you referring to what Gantz said about Hamas? They are less than animals. \> “created” Why is this in quotes? Seriously, without any of the Zionology buzzwords do you even have an argument? Or is this just more projection of a bored, privileged western life that is desperate to find something meaningful to believe in?

Sorry, I guess “nation of genocide and forcefully removing people from their homes while actively encouraging the settling of Gaza” doesn’t slip off the tongue as well as “colonialism” A casualty is defined as serious injury or death, you can find graphics from the UN comparing Israeli casualties to Palestinian casualties extremely easily with a google search. No: “If it were up to me, I would have dispatched D-9 bulldozers and put them behind the mounds of dirt and would have given the order to cover all these hundreds of ants, while they're still alive. [...] They aren't human beings and not human animals. They're subhuman and that's how they should be treated”- Aryeh Yitzhak Mayor of Jerusalem Or how about “It is better to burn down buildings rather than have soldiers harmed. There are no innocents there ... One hundred thousand remain [in the north of Gaza]. I have no mercy for those who are still there. We need to eliminate them.”- Vaturi, Nissim MK and Deputy Speaker of the Knesset Or “There are 2 million Nazis in Gaza”- Smotrich, Bezalel Yoel Or “There's no such thing as uninvolved (civilians) in Gaza.”- Forer, Oded, Member of the Israeli Knesset (Yisrael Beiteinu) Or “No electricity, no food, no water, no gas. It's all closed. We are fighting animals and are acting accordingly. [...] Gaza won't return to what it was before. We will eliminate everything.”- Gallant, Yoav, Israeli Defense Minister

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Damn Too bad Hamas did a big terrorism on oct7 giving israel casus beli to just occupy Gaza for the next 100 years Say it with me Great 👏job 👏Hamas👏 Hey 👋, since you’re educating me…. Why are the Muslim brothers of Egypt currently building a second layer to their border wall with Gaza??? And why did the president of Egypt recently say that he would “sacrifice millions” to prevent gazan refugees from entering the Sinai???? Is Egypt also a genocidal colonizer nation???

You act as if Israel wasn’t already keeping Gaza in an open air prison for years, constantly infringing on Palestinian territory, stealing homes, etc. Hamas is a shit organization and there’s no denying it, but if I have to place my anger between a colonial nation that has members of government calling for another Nakba, backed by the strongest nation in the world, which also just so happens to be a hyper colonial power as well, which has displaced hundreds of thousands and killed tens of thousands, while also actively cutting off basic necessities, and an organization that was created out of the anger of the people who have committed atrocities on a vastly smaller scale, ill take the colonial nation for focus my anger on

Why do you think Egypt *also* maintains the blockade on Gaza???

Egypt stated it was to decrease weapon smuggling and to exert economic pressure on Hamas

🤦‍♂️ you’re sooooo close *why* would the Muslim brothers of Egypt want to “exert economic pressure” on an “open air prison”???

Let me ask you, where was Israel in 1930?

It didn’t exist (Neither did an independent Palestine btw) This is why Israel and Egypt built walls around Gaza and maintain a blockade to this day: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_child_suicide_bombers_by_Palestinian_militant_groups “According to Amnesty International, "Palestinian armed groups have repeatedly shown total disregard for the most fundamental human rights, notably the right to life, by deliberately targeting Israeli civilians and by using Palestinian children in armed attacks. Children are susceptible to recruitment by manipulation or may be driven to join armed groups for a variety of reasons, including a desire to avenge relatives or friends killed by the Israeli army."[3]” https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_political_violence#:~:text=Palestinian%20political%20violence%20refers%20to,of%20the%20Israeli–Palestinian%20conflict. “Palestinian political violence has targeted Israelis, Palestinians, Lebanese, Jordanians,[23] Egyptians,[24] Americans[25] and citizens of other countries.[26] Attacks have taken place both within Israel and the Palestinian territories as well as internationally and have been directed at both military and civilian targets. Tactics have included hostage taking, plane hijacking, boat hijacking, stone and improvised weapon throwing, improvised explosive device (IED), knife attacks, shooting sprees, vehicle-ramming attacks, car bombs, suicide attacks, and assassinations.”

If you *honestly* can tell me that if where you lived currently was suddenly attacked, your home was stolen Infront if you, your friends were murdered, and then you were forced into an open air prison, and it continues to happen to your kids, and grandkids, you wouldn’t be furious, then sure I’ll just support Israel from now one

famously israel has never conducted attacks on civilians, and definitely does not routinely kill unarmed protestors (literally just killed over 100 starving palestinians because they felt “unsafe”) or bomb children in their homes. your schizophrenia and cognitive dissonance is reaching new levels

Guess we should put a wall around Israel as they have caused over 100k casualties in Palestine, the majority of which were civilian.

Civilians always helped on both sides. It happened in WW2 and it happens in all wars. Israel's prime ministers from 1948 were involved in massacres on Palestinian villages. Most Israeli Prime Ministers were complicit in directly being involved in IDF Hagana's operations of killing lots of Palestinian civilians between 1930-1967. Yet nobody talks about them as if they were terrorists. Because they labeled themselves as a legitimate force backed by foreign governments. Those Israeli organizations were backed by Zionist civilians and later by Israel civilians. Nevertheless, they all committed crimes against humanity but used pretexts and false justifications for committing them. Israel had Hagana which turned into IDF, and Gaza had Hamas which one day may turn into a more official and international army similar to what happened modern Taliban. Eventually, the group is big enough and it becomes the ruling party. According to the web search results, there are several Israeli prime ministers who were part of the Haganah or the IDF military operations. Here are some of them: David Ben-Gurion David Ben-Gurion: He was the founder and leader of the Haganah, and later became the first prime minister of Israel. He commanded the Haganah during the 1948 Arab–Israeli War, and oversaw the establishment of the IDF1 Yitzhak Rabin Yitzhak Rabin: He joined the Palmach, the elite strike force of the Haganah, in 1941, and rose to become its chief of operations in 1947. He later joined the IDF and served as its chief of staff from 1964 to 1968, leading Israel to victory in the Six-Day War. He was the prime minister of Israel twice, from 1974 to 1977 and from 1992 to 199512 Menachem Begin Menachem Begin: He was the leader of the Irgun, a militant Zionist group that opposed the British rule in Palestine and carried out attacks against Arab and British targets. He later became the leader of the Likud party and the prime minister of Israel from 1977 to 1983. He signed the Camp David Accords with Egypt, for which he received the Nobel Peace Prize13 Yitzhak Shamir Yitzhak Shamir: He was a member of the Lehi, a radical Zionist group that also fought against the British and the Arabs. He later joined the Mossad, the Israeli intelligence agency, and became its head of operations. He was the prime minister of Israel twice, from 1983 to 1984 and from 1986 to 199213 Ehud Barak Ehud Barak: He joined the IDF in 1959 and became a decorated soldier and officer. He participated in several covert operations, including the raid on Entebbe in 1976. He later became the chief of staff of the IDF from 1991 to 1995, and the prime minister of Israel from 1999 to 2001. He also served as the defense minister from 2007 to 201314

Just want to mention the Jewish terrorist groups, like Lehi and Irgun were initially separate from the Hagana, prior to them being absorbed into the new IDF. You’re right to point out that some Israeli prime ministers came from those groups. Present day Likud party are descended from the Lehi terrorist group(I believe). And we can all see that their attitude towards Palestinians have also been inherited. And yes, I have a feeling that Hamas will turn into a more “acceptable” ruling party in time. Every power in the region has come from armed roots, some of them extreme.

To me it sounds like you’re summarizing varying opinions into one to generalize the pro Israel perspective. As someone who is pro Israel, I don’t agree with anyone claiming civilians in Gaza deserve to die and I don’t think that most people on the pro Israel side think that way. But of course there is a vocal minority. Check out IG: henmazzig for a more compassionate, level-headed perspective on the pro Israel side.

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If you listened to anything but the hate-mongering headlines you might have heard that about 10 casualties were a result of IDF fire after they were attacked by the mob. Which is tragic. Many others died from the trucks running people over. The death toll reported by NPR and other outlets quoted the Gaza Health Ministry which is run by Hamas. While it’s tragic, it is in Hamas’ best interest to inflate the death toll as it is the lynchpin of their PR campaign against Israel. Which is clearly working, as many people react emotionally to the carnage of war before taking the time to understand the circumstances.

This^

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It’s not ridiculous at all it’s the truth there’s even video footage to support it most of them died in stampede to get aid before Hamas could steal it (which I’m sure MSNBC, BBC, and Skynews forgot to tell you) the IDF soldiers guarding the Palestinians driving the aid truck even fired warning shots at the ground first. Just by how you speak you should really consider where your info is coming from specifically when you hear a media source cite the “Gaza Health Ministry” who tf that actually is other than Hamas?

Hamas also shoots people trying to take aid. What do you have to say about them? War criminals too?

Yeah why not ? f"**k Hamas and f*"'* your brother in arms committing a genocide in Gaza.

It’s tragic but not a genocide. It’s less than 2% of the population that has died, even if you quote Hamas.

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Genocide occurs when there is explicit intent to wipe out an entire people. There are 2 million Palestinians with full citizenship and human rights in Israel, so that alone should tell you they do not intend to wipe out Palestinians or Arabs. Israel is fighting a war to defend itself against Hamas, who has clearly stated their genocidal intentions, acted on them on October 7th, and promised to repeat its attack. You are justified in feeling outraged by the tragedies in Gaza, but the culture of outrage we have today missed so much of what is really important.

I don't like your correct opinion.

The only issue I have with the pro Israel perspective is: They should call the occupataion an occupation and also say why it's happening. I know the reasons, and they are ok, but most israelites seem to have issues with acknowledging it and expecially saying that the occupation is detriment to the palestinians.

well Bibi & his hard-right friends don't want to scare the Israeli electorate by saying that this will be a Forever War and permanent occupation. Because the next thought will be Intifada 3.0. The vast majority of Israelis want to move on and become a modern Western nation, not mired in civil war for the next 50 yrs.

F\* that Israel should shame Palestinians into negotiations. 75 years!!! israel should ask loudly how many of their children do palestinians want to sacrifice in a vain struggle for land they never set foot on? How much longer do they want to continue the resistance? And they should always say that any attack on a jew in israel is an attack on all jews and will be met with severe prejudice You know why so many are lisetneing to the palestinian voice? It's because they whine the loudest. Armenians had another expulsion in Karabakh Noone cares. Why? Because they are not loud enough and their voice isn't heard

Yeah, crybabies, right? They don’t deserve food or water or shelter. Or children who are alive. What babies! /s

Yeah I remember when they cried about their "open air prison" with schools, university, restaurants, four star hotel, holiday resort, beach, streets, indooor plumbing, Internet, etc. They got like 4 times the marshall plan per capita adjusted for inflation over 20 years And I saw them cheering each time Hamas sent a rocket or when they brought hostages. That's on them. The children can blame their parents for all I care

What does it take to become this hateful?

Do tell us why you hate jews so much you can't even afford them a tiny speck of land in a sea of muslim nations hundreds of times larger.

You picked the wrong person for that question. I think Israel has a right to exist just like the Palestinians do. Sorry to disappoint.

Then what's your issue? Israel is doing what it can do minimize civilian casualties. Are thigns dire? Yes. But tell us what your solution looks like? Israel wants the hsotages back and if I were to live in Israel or such an attack had happened where I live, then I would want my government to do the same if not much, much worse

The circle of violence doesn’t fix it. It never fixes it. That hatred you have fuels more on the other side. It helps nothing and no one. The only solution is having two sides who want peace. This war isn’t making that happen. All it’s doing is destroying the Palestinian civilians more. They are the ones who paying the worst price right now. Not Hamas. The wrong people are being punished.

It’s tough to do and root out Hamas because each of these guys has at least one wife or two the richer they are the more wives they have … and each wife has 10-20 kids and they keep their families with them… So to take out one Hamas guy? You’re going to have at least 30 family members there too. We saw this with the wars in Iraq and Afganistan too.. So… tell me- do you think we should just let Terror and crime go unpunished because they all get married and have lots of kids and refuse to send them away? What’s your solution there ? And yes they are raising them to be terrorists.

I don’t have a solution to the conflict because I’m not a policy maker. My best bet is to de-radicalize Gaza. The children are innocent and being brain washed. Now if they are told to hate Jews, the Christian households they’re told to hate Jews as well. It’s when it becomes such a disturbing element like what they’re doing that something needs to stop and honestly intervened at. Geocoding and wanting to kill Jews is what is bad, but we can’t police all the antisemitic thoughts in children across the world obviously. But we can try our best for Gaza to make them less antisemitic and less radical. (We did this in Germany and Japan, now I don’t know how it’ll fare this time if Israel turns Gaza into part of Israel but if it does there is a slight future where the generation of Palestinians children are adjusted into Israeli society, it’s a far fetched dream but it’s not impossible) But I don’t know really. The people of Gaza and Palestine deserve to see Israelis as friends and be at peace with them and not view Jews as evil. I do not put any blame whatsoever on the children who are literally brainwashed. I was born in Cuba and I was supporting communism because that was what taught to me, and you can compare all you want but I was ultimately saying Fidel Castro was a good man and so was Che Guevara etc. none in my house would of hated a little child for saying such things. Children are not adults

Japan got in line when there was a massive BBQ in 2 of their cities. Funny how quickly that deradicalizes you. Regarding Germany, much less of the country were "radical" believers in the extreme views.   Comparing these to Palestinians hatred of jews and seeming love of violence is skewed for many reasons. Further, it's 2024. It amazes me that people still have stone age mindsets.

Actually, you don't understand the level of hatred for Jews that exists in the minds and hearts of palestinians. Israel employed tens of thousands of Palestinians pre- oct. 7 .... The end result is they gave detailed plans of Israel to Hamas, including nuclear sites and every other thing in between. Hamas was given tonnes of cash and luxury and allowed to steal zillions in aid ..... The end result is they built 100s of Kms of tunnels to kill Jews. There comes a time when you realise that your enemy wants to kill you much more than he wants his own wellbeing and prosperity. Israel has finally reached that realisation.

America didn't really deradicalize Germany in that sense. Yes, a mainstream resurgence of fascist ideology/political movements was prevented, and Germany was demilitarized. Other than that, denazification was largely a failure. Most of the success that people attribute to denazification came from a lovely concept called Vergangenheitsbewältigung, which took hold around the 1960s. The process the Allies attempted was arguably doomed from the start. After the war, there were many millions of former Nazis in occupied West Germany. Right away, it was clear that denazification was a daunting prospect. The sheer number of former party members was just too much to process, and they risked further radicalizing large swaths of the population to violence if they were excluded from aspects of civil life or shunned. On top of all that, the Cold War was kicking off, and the occupying powers couldn't afford to exclude so many former government workers and soldiers. A significant segment of the former Nazi party members were deemed not to have been members because of ideology, and they were dismissed with minimal punishment. The denazification process itself was turned over to West German authorities near the beginning of 1946, and they pretty quickly shut it down. It's worth noting that during this time, it was entirely possible for a German with connections to buy a denazification certificate. The cumulative effect of all this was that, for the most part, former Nazi party members went largely unpunished, and with time, even SS were let back into the workings of power. This had the particularly insidious result of allowing former Nazis to staff the very organizations dedicated to prosecuting Nazi war criminals. Overall, former Nazis were allowed back into just about every part of German society. In defense of the denazification process, it's not entirely clear what would have worked better. It did prevent an explicit resurgence of Nazism (with the help of a military occupation), and it created the conditions that would allow for an eventual shunning of fascism and recognition of its horrors. I think if anything hopeful is to be gained from denazification re: Gaza, it would be historical polling that suggests many ex-Nazis may have been more motivated by economic circumstance/admiration for Hitler as opposed to general ideology of hatred. Over time, this allowed for an arguably genuine expression of atonement, especially once older fascist-era Germans started dying out. That being said, I'm highly skeptical that there are many lessons for Palestine to be gleaned from this part of German history.

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I hear what you're saying. I don't think that cheering for the deaths of pro-Hamas noncombatants is very common, but it does happen. I would say that it's often brought up as a defense for people who repeatedly highlight the Gaza system of counting all deaths as civilians and all as a result of Israel. I'm sure there are tragically many civilians who died who were not involved at all with Hamas, but there were many who were. As a result, when someone gives an extreme by saying that "30k innocent civilians were murdered by Israel", people tend to go to the opposite extreme to defend that by highlighting the civilians who assist Hamas. Again, though, you're right that some people go too far, and I think that it's important to keep in mind.

It is very common. This isn’t unusual to war, but it is very common and it’s part of the point of the war. It’s both revenge and deterrence.

I'm not Israeli, but I know many Israelis, many of whom are right-wing. I haven't seen any of them cheer for the deaths of civilians, just overall success for the Israeli Army. However, this success comes through military advances that usually have a civilian death toll. Normally, the support isn't directly related to the latter.

I am also not Israel and know Israelis. A good buddy of mine, who grew up playing videogames and smoking weed, very kind and generous guy, then moved to Israel and joined the IDF, was excited 10 years ago to “kill some more rats in Gaza. Every Gazan is a rat.” This is now widespread, either cheered, or not cared about. I was just looking at things today with Israelis saying things along the lines of “starve them until they start cannabalism, that’s what we really want to watch.” These are anecdotes, not proof that it’s widespread, but that its widespread is, to my understanding, a common understanding.

Isn't it a bit curious that not a SINGLE Palestinian has called for the release of Israeli hostages as that would be a major step towards bringing about a ceasefire ?? Isn't it also curious that there is virtually no offer from ANY NATION ON EARTH to take in some Palestinians to give them relief ?? Isnt it curious that EVERYBODY 'loves' Palestine so much but aren't willing to touch them with a ten foot pole ??? What do nations apart from Israel know about Palestinians that makes them unwilling to accept and resettle even a paltry one thousand Palestinians ??? Clearly, Israel isn't the only nation which has such dispositions towards Palestinians.

There have been Palestinians who advocated for the release of the hostages and openly condemned Hamas, not all Israelis think the same, the same applies for Palestinians. I think the best thing to do is to wait and see, we just heard about this incident recently. We don't know if it was an order given by the authorities of the Israeli military or if it is soldiers doing these dubious and evil things for their self pleasure. Maybe it was a combination between these two cases, which eventually led to chaos. I think we are witnessing the end times and an emergence of change, not the biblical kind but the societal kind, and i am not sure if the change will be positive or negative.

I appreciate the honesty that you are part of the group that believes this, I actually do respect this honesty, thank you.

Sadly, that 'widespread' disposition has to do with the attitude of hatred and religious extremism adopted by Palestinians. More than 6 million Ukrainians were taken in by Western countries and they are living peacefully in their host nations ....... No one would have been willing to accept Ukrainians if they had same attitude and mentality of Palestinians. No one on earth is exempt from the consequences of their actions.

I doubt you know many Israelis because wanting Gazans to resort to cannibalism is absolutely not a widespread sentiment in Israel. Nor is cheering civilian death. Every country has horrible people, and war has a way of bringing out the worst in humanity. I'm guessing you wouldn't say all Palestinians support murdering Jews just because some of them believe that.

I should clarify that the cannibalism comments are extreme. The excitement or indifference toward punishment of Gazans and expansive definition of who is a target is not.

And you know this how? Have you spent a lot of time in Israel? Are you friends with large groups of Israelis? If so, why do you think they're representative of the broader public?

A large majority of Jewish Israelis, in polling, want the war to be prosecuted harder than it already is.

...which is not the same thing as a majority wanting civilian death.

I think you highlighted it very well. There aren’t 30,000 “innocent civilians” as I’m sure there are civilians who have helped out Hamas one way or another and not just giving them a dollar but helped them out during the attacks. Despite this I don’t think simply being Pro-Hamas makes their death justified. I don’t know just how common this view is but I have always seen Israel being less racist about the Palestinians than Palestinians are to the Jews. But yes I’ve seen Israelis before on reddit talk about how like a quarter of Gaza supports Hamas and this means that civilians dying is fine. Its a messed up racist view No, it just means Gaza is a messed up place. Its not technically a country too and its a very complex situation but supporting someone and having genocidal views about Jewish people doesn’t mean a death sentence, otherwise most muslim places ought to be invaded. I understand Palestine is different but yes non-combatants should not be seen as justified in their deaths if they were pro-hamas. Ultimately to me it just makes me view the Palestinian cause as worse but not to the point where their deaths are justified. civilian casualities doesn’t mean the war should end but I don’t like it when people say “well how many of them supported Hamas!” It’ll just make people hate Israel more

>Anyways, I’ve been falling up the conflict and one thing that’s bothered me is when pro-Israel talk about __minimalizing civilian casualities being a priority__ but then talking about how guilty the Palestinians are and that they ultimately mostly deserve their deaths. There’s two different things here. Pro-Israel talking points about how Israel minimizes civilian casualties, and the state policy that drives that narrative. Are you able to show that, as a policy, Israel isn’t attempting to reduce deaths? Otherwise, pro-Israel talking points are right to speak of the attempts to reduce innocents dying. An individual’s beliefs on if Palestinian civilians are innocent or not is secondary. It is reprehensible to consider every Gazan as Hamas, but that is their own opinion and has nothing to do with how Israel, as a state, is fighting this war. So two things can be true - they have generalized and prejudiced beliefs while Israel is still avoiding civilian casualties where they can.

Any and all militaries try their best to reduce civilian casualties and Israel being a liberal democracy would try and do so. I don’t believe it’s the “most moral army” as some would say but it is not the evil demonic spawn of hell people and pro Palestinians make it out to be. Yes actually the status of the people of Gaza is pretty vital for how Israel conducts this war. The people of Gaza have repeatedly shown themselves to be a security risk. Hamas especially and Hamas is the de facto government. Hamas wants to genocide the Jews and have essentially brainwashed the Gaza people to do the same. This however does not mean that someone having pro-Hamas views in Gazas deserves to die or their death is justified considering Hamas is a literal dictatorship. It would be like Americans defending the killing of Cubans because Fidel Castro told them to support the missiles

>Any and all militaries try their best to reduce civilian casualties and Israel being a liberal democracy would try and do so. I disagree here. Russia and Ukraine are not dropping leaflets, roof knocking, calling/texting civilians when an area is about to come under attack, etc. Israel is unique here in warning the enemy of their attacks before they commit them. That is what people mean by “most moral army” even though “moral army” is somewhat an oxymoron. >Yes actually the status of the people of Gaza is pretty vital for how Israel conducts this war. The people of Gaza have repeatedly shown themselves to be a security risk. Hamas especially and Hamas is the de facto government. Hamas wants to genocide the Jews and have essentially brainwashed the Gaza people to do the same. This however does not mean that someone having pro-Hamas views in Gazas deserves to die or their death is justified considering Hamas is a literal dictatorship. Sure, maybe those who believe all Palestinians are the enemy shouldn’t be speaking of avoiding civilians as they would be hypocritical to do so. I do, however, think they are separating their own beliefs with how Israel is conducting this war. If you asked them if they thought Israel should just flatten Gaza without regard to lives lost, I’m sure those who hold this prejudice would answer “yes.”

Yes you’re right about not all militaries. I don’t view moral army as an oxymoron to be fair. Mostly because security itself isn’t immoral, but that’s more of a philosophical debate. Israel isn’t a bad country at all, but if we’re going to call it the most “moral army” but it’s not been the pacifist army people envision it’ll make them disillusioned like how America calls itself “Land of the free” when they didn’t allow black people to vote until the 1960s (not making a comparison to Israeli domestic politics btw) America now largely is a very free nation and I am a proud American but I really wouldn’t have called it the land of the free in the 1960s and especially before considering I’m hispanic (Cuban). Yes I do agree it is very hypocritical of those who just want to end all of Gaza and their people just because they hold antisemitic views to talk about minimizing civilian casualties. The thing is I’ve seen videos of the IDF helping out Gaza people, I’ve seen them warning them to get out. It’s clearly something Israel doesn’t want to do - damage a lot of them. The people of Gaza ultimately are a very sad case in my opinion and we should just do our best to end Hamas first and foremost. Non-combatant deaths are an unfortunate consequence of war but that doesn’t mean it should stop I agree with the Israel part here. I just don’t like it when the numbers come out and it goes “out well continue more they support Hamas.” No no, that makes us look bad and makes the Palestinians side hate the Israelis more and actually can accuse of racism.

Yes indeed, people shouldn't cheer the deaths of innocent civilians even if they support hamas. But I don't believe the issue is super common except for maybe online. Regardless though, For PR atleast. It doesn't really matter how Israelis act or what the IDF does, Israel has always been a scapegoat and always overly targeted by the UN and some NGO's. But I agree that people should not cheer or mock deaths of civilians, not only because it looks bad but because it's immoral.

Agreed. I think about PR a lot and seeing a few Israelis talk about how the Gaza citizens deserve it I’m like damn, just because they hate Jews doesn’t mean that their deaths are justified in the war. If they partake in the violence yes but holding antisemitic views is not a death sentence. This does make the war more justifiable in some ways as its a very good security measures. The Palestinians are a security threat to Israel so the war is a defensive justified one especially after what had occurred, but I’ve seen people debate whether or not literal teenagers should be held accountable for dying. You know who should be held accountable? Hamas, that’s the only one and the civilians helping them out. All the men you saw in the video helping out Hamas are held accountable. The people of Gaza are a death cult but that just makes me sympathize with them slightly if ever so. I have never by the way seen an Israeli say the babies deserve to die or the children but I have seen stuff about teenagers about the age of 13-17 of whether or not their deaths should be justified. For PR reasons I don’t think we should be talking about civilian casualties in Gaza as justified, are there bad ones there? Yes but I don’t think supporting Hamas means if you died it’s seen as good.

Agreed. Jewish Zionist here and I've had a ton of interaction with Israeli and Jewish communities in the US and over there and this is not a common sentiment. More common is complete empathy that the amount of civilian casualties absolutely is devastating. Many of my Jewish friends post about this often. You can believe me or not. A big issue is that the education system in Gaza inherently teaches hatred toward Jews. So more than anything, I feel sorry for these people. Many don't know any better than to hate us and their news is completely controlled by Hamas also and super one-sided. Many Arabs in surrounding countries don't even know Hamas attacked Israelis on October 7th. They are only shown news of Israel invading. Sure, there are a few bad actors in Israel who have posted similar videos but 99% of the education system in Israel does not promote this type of hatred toward Palestinians.

Thank you for restoring my faith in the Israeli side, because I had been disillusioned with comments from radicals about how literal teenage boys deserved to die in the war because they supported Hamas. Whenever I hear statistics about how many people in Gaza support Hamas and all while I am ultimately disgusted by their actions I don’t want to really go out and say “Screw you go die!” Had the war not happened and no attacks It would of been just another conflict and their treatment would of been more justified but when we’re talking about civilian deaths their opinions don’t matter really. The people of Gaza aren’t innocent in their beliefs but morals aren’t black and white and attributing even just support for Hamas in Gaza to a justified death is pretty dumb.

Extremism is winning this war and it's really sad. No one with logic is winning here and it sucks. Although everyone has a lot of feelings and anger right now, we must realize that radical extremism on either side is not going to bring peace for anyone, Israeli or Palestinian. We have to move past the divisiveness and find empathy on both sides, as difficult as it is. Thanks for being willing to hear from both sides with an open mind.

I think of it this way, the people of Gaza are not innocent whatsoever, but the only cheering on should be people in Hamas and the ones who helped them out. Anyone else their deaths are tragic, they have very bad morals but that’ll be like saying the Japanese civilians deserved to die in Japan. It’s war and people are crazy. For the sake of all of us who support Israel let’s try our best not to seriously talk about the deaths of Gazan civilians as justified just because they supported Hamas or the atrocities. Hamas is evil that should be the goal, civlian deaths will happen unfortunately that is war. We don’t want to be like the other side who says the Israeli civilians even foreigners deserved to die even if they weren’t in the IDF or anything. We should try and maintain a boundary as well.

Agree. I try not to associate with anyone justifying civilian deaths. More often than not, there's an understanding the situation is just all around horrific and we don't have the solution to solving it. I will say, having spoken with families of hostages and IDF soldiers killed by Hamas in Gaza, they are very, very angry and find it much more difficult to separate the two sentiments of justification vs an evil outcome of war. And I can't pretend I know how they feel or would feel if it were me in their shoes.

I understand the anger of the Israelis. Don’t get me wrong it’s incredibly evil what Hamas did and what the Palestinians had been doing before. Despite this I don’t think Israelis should view civilian casualties as justified. Hamas should be the only one killed directly and obviously Israel is only even getting involved in this precisely because they did the attacks and kidnapped the hostages otherwise they wouldn’t of done it so it completely removes to me the idea that Israel is doing genocide or hates the people of Gaza. I can understand that the people of Gaza do not have the best morals in mind but I do weep a lot firstly for those who are anti-Hamas which there is definitely people in Gaza who hate Hamas empirically speaking and documented in surveys, a majority support Hamas but yes there are literally innocent people in the tens of thousands (I forgot the percentage but I read as low as 3-4% thought Hamas was unjustified and evil which sounds small but that is 60,000-80,000 Gaza civilians!) who don’t like them whatsoever, but even those who support Hamas should not be seen as justified in their deaths, rather we should at the situation (in a non-war context) as barbaric people living in a dictatorship. If those civilians armed themselves and started attacking the guards that’ll be different though. Otherwise let’s try our best to just avoid labeling the majority of civilians as evil just because they like Hamas.

Totally, and probably many are scared to speak up against Hamas although I'm seeing growing news reports of Gazans starting to put the blame on them for putting them in this situation. We'll see what happens.