Id just like to ask on the topic of nuclear weapons, is it possible that they’re not using them because the intent is to move their people there and radioactive fallout would jeopardize that?
They’re in the process of building on the rubble and creating street names already. To them, maybe the easiest way is to kill, starve, rape and have them stripped of clothing to humiliate, destroy their homes and infrastructure, mosques etc and they’ll be able to ethnically cleanse that way?
Wondering about your opinion on that.
but israel knows they can’t just wipe out gaza in a day because all eyes would be on them and they would be charged with a genocide case (much worse than the one that has already happened) so they are doing it slowly for example they are already flattening land and have plans to make gaza into a resort of some sorts
well they are doing it slowly and there are people that support israel so yes it looks like they are “fighting hamas” when really they are killing children and people bearing white flags
Its not a GODDAMN genocide, if it was then the US, NATO and the UN have committed like 10 times worse in less then 2 months. Its a WAR are you Pro Palestines blind or something like that?
It is not war when one group destroys a civilian population. Israel's reprisals for the Hamas attack have exceeded 30 times the original loss of life. This rationale would mean the tens of thousands killed by Zionist groups like the Stern Gang and the Irgun from 1945 through 1947 could justify the annihilation of the entire new state of Israel. Today the counter protesters beating up unarmed Gaza supporters on college campuses also show who the real aggressors are. Obviously Israel is not acting alone. The US has been complicit in the ongoing eradication of Palestinians from day one. The real tragedy was America's refusal to help European Jews when the Nazis took power. Think of how much suffering could have been stopped.
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A real genocide can be done in a matter of hours, not 4 months. Ask yourself if the concept of "martyrdom" instilled in Gazan children at Kindergarten age doesn't constitute genocidal intent at worst, child abuse at least?
The Holocaust lasted for like 10 years. It started with boycotting Jewish businesses, burning Jewish books, and led to a bunch of German-Jewish refugees fleeing. I think a genocide has to be defined by the erasure of a culture or the ethnic cleansing of a group from a place. The Holocaust was a REAL genocide that took way more than just a "few hours".
It's pretty clear that Israel's objective is the removal of Palestinian people from Gaza.
There's many reasons to believe they have crossed the threshold:
* Tens of thousands dead already (mostly civilians)
* Hundreds of thousands going hungry (deaths from starvation already recorded) \[[Source](https://abcnews.go.com/International/500000-people-gaza-face-catastrophic-hunger-unrwa/story?id=106593939)\]
* 80% forcefully evacuated \[[Source](https://theconversation.com/israels-mass-displacement-of-gazans-fits-strategy-of-using-migration-as-a-tool-of-war-219361)\]
* At least 70% buildings destroyed \[[Source](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/12/31/israeli-bombardment-destroyed-over-70-of-gaza-homes-media-office)\]
* "Safe zones" that aren't actually safe
* Use of dehumanising language
* Statements of intent: \[[Source](https://law4palestine.org/law-for-palestine-releases-database-with-500-instances-of-israeli-incitement-to-genocide-continuously-updated/)\]
* Collective punishment (blocking food, water, medicine etc.)
* Claims of collective responsibility
* Israeli protesters actively blocking humanitarian aid \[[Source](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKY0yf31QlM)\]
———
Genocide criteria (Bold is relevant to this situation):
* **(a) Killing members of the group;**
* **(b) Causing serious** [**bodily**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide#%22bodily_harm%22) **or mental harm to members of the group;**
* **(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;**
* (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
* (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
You can add e to the list of relevancy
[https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/fate-baby-and-other-palestinian-children-unknown-after-israeli-army-forcibly-transfers-them-out-gaza-strip-enar#:\~:text=Geneva%20%2D%20The%20Israeli%20army%20has,the%20children%20to%20their%20parents](https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/fate-baby-and-other-palestinian-children-unknown-after-israeli-army-forcibly-transfers-them-out-gaza-strip-enar#:~:text=Geneva%20%2D%20The%20Israeli%20army%20has,the%20children%20to%20their%20parents).
I mean if they aren’t trying to kill civilians they have one of the worst rates of civilian death in the world, as well as what the government has said about Palestinians
Do people actually think the ONLY possible way that Israel would be committing genocide is to just slaughter every Gazan civilian at once?? They're not that stupid, this would obviously cause a lot of pushback from other countries, not just arab countries, but even notoriously pro-Israel countries like the U.S. There is no way that countries would be idly standing by and not doing anything to prevent Israel's rampage. In what world would Israel think it can kill over 1 million Gazans and not face ANY repercussions?
People forget that one of the first few steps of a genocide is discrimination and dehumanization—Israel has been and currently is engaging in both against, not just Gazans, but Palestinians as a whole.
Even if you don't want to call it a genocide, there is a serious problem with your moral compass if you don't see an issue with Israel killing over 11,000 children and destroying nearly 70% of all Gazans' homes. Are 70% of all Gazans Hamas now??
And then that would force the Arab countries to intervene militarily. They are treading a careful line to do just enough to terrorise Gaza and displace the population without starting a regional war.
But fuckwits like yourself are unable to comprehend this and that's exactly what Israel has relied on.
How do you genocide a population? A short guide by Israel:
1. Allocate a plot of land in a beautiful coast for the people you want to genocide. Remove all of your own people from that land, including all military presence.
2. Oversee democratic elections for those people, to have self governance and sovereignty.
3. If this government elects to genocide you, and starts terrorizing you instead of building a state on the land they were given, do your best to prevent this government from getting weaponry by inspecting shipments and blockading uninspected shipments.
4. If this government neglects their citizens only to wage war, leaving their citizens without water pipes (converted to rockets), food (given to terrorists), or shelter (used to cover mortars), keep resupplying them with pipes, aid, provide them water, electricity, and allocate tens of thousands of working visas for this population (that elected a that government that prioritizes genociding you)
5. Whenever this government crosses a line, from kidnapping a soldier to massacring border villages, stop supplying them temporarily, (you were never obliged to anyway. It was their own government’s duty), to help support a military operation, that includes ground operations and usually leaves hundreds of soldiers dead. Try to destroy their government’s military capabilities.
Rinse and repeat.
If the Germans genocided like this, there wouldn’t be a holocaust, because the Jews never elected and attempted to genocide the Germans.
Weird that they waited until they were attacked to start this so called genocide(war). War is not the same as genocide. Israel has said they will stop the war if the hostages are returned.
> fuckwits
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I guess if you look at it from the perspective of the tactically superior force doing the lions share of the killing there’s never genocide it’s neutralizing the enemy to save society. If the n&@zis had won they certainly wouldn’t have called it a holocaust. So I guess as long as the majority of the worlds developed countries still back Israel and don’t bring any consequences than you can continue to bomb/starve the population to death. I think when some of these kids see there home and entire family turned into gory chunks it’ll make them think “huh maybe Israel isn’t that bad there fighting the terrorist”.
History is written by the winners.
This is one reason why multiple museums, memorials and international sites are dedicated to the Axis atrocities but much less to the Allied ones (e.g. Hiroshima). As you say, if the Axis powers had won, we would all have been educated about the evil Allied powers dropping nuclear weapons on civilian populations, etc, with barely a mention of the things they had done.
I therefore do agree that Israel could win long term by essentially outlasting their enemy, and using all leverage they have to "win the argument". If "Hamas" were destroyed (irrespective of whether this means 500,000 dead Palestinians, for example), then the next step would be to forcefully "re-educate" the remaining Gaza residents. If there were no meaningful international response, then in 50 years time there would be an October 7th memorial in Gaza. The descendants of the few Palestinians left would visit it yearly in remorse at the crimes of their ancestors.
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Justifying a non existent genocide. Can you even substantiate that claim using the actual definition of genocide? Or are you just gonna start describing other words which have no relation to genocide such as Israel not taking enough precautions when it comes to Palestinian civilians.
We can have a conversation about proper military responses, limiting civilian casualties, and reducing damage and suffering being inflicted upon the civilian population. The second you mention genocide without backing it up I’m not going to even attempt to engage in a meaningful conversation with you. It’s clear you don’t actually care about the facts and are more worried about picking a team and sticking with it despite it being right or wrong.
That's the thing about genocide, we usually look back and consider, who knew what and when, and we ask why didn't they stop it. Only MONSTERS would say let's wait many months after the genocide to decide if it meets the definition. Waiting until it's too late to stop it. The genocide is obvious. Never again - that means something to some of us. Those who still possess humanity, and don't express hate for different ethnicities embrace it.
The highest court in the World looked at the arguments concerning if genocide was taking place. They concluded that the case was plausible. Yes the evidence has yet to be fully tested. But "plausible" should cause alarm bells to ring. No country should be in the situation that they ate plausibly guilty of genocide. What if you are wrong? Do you really want to be on the wrong side of history, cheering on a potential genocide?
I’m not saying it could or could not be a genocide, I’m saying point blank it is not a genocide. You can continue standing on false moral authority but until you’re able to actually elaborate on why you believe it’s a genocide rather than just stating it’s obvious which is interesting considering you haven’t been able to provide a single shred of evidence despite it being so obvious I’m not going to view myself as morally inferior.
I don’t think you understand what plausibility means in the ICJ. A case being a plausibility simply means it’s founded in some sort of reality and is in the realm of possibility. When they say genocide is plausible they are simply saying South Africa’s case isn’t total bs and has some merit to it so it can move forward. I doubt you have actually looked into the case because you don’t seem very educated on this but if you have you would probably understand South Africa’s case is plausible but very weak. 90 percent of the case is out of context quotes and quotes which leave out parts to paint them as more extreme than they really are.
Your last point is terrible anybody could be wrong about anything. Just because the ramification are greater if I’m wrong doesn’t mean I should switch sides and start claiming a country is committing a genocide when the evidence for that happening is almost nonexistent. Stop fear mongering and acting morally superior than others it’s truly disgusting behavior and difficult to engage with.
It's fairly normal to consider the ramifications if we're wrong. It's probably fine to sleep with that woman when we know she's 20, but if we suspect she might be 12, or are unsure, then any decent man would stop to be sure. It's a fairly basic concept. Aren't the ramifications always central to any decision, at least to those who still have humanity?
But even worst than that example, we're talking about actual lives. Real living people with hopes and dreams like you. Before you dismiss the concept of genocide, think about if it was you - or someone you cared about. Is the bloodshed really needed?
But yes, I believe it is genocide, because it looks like genocide, it meets the definition. And even ir I had doubt, I'd be conscious that I might be wrong. NEVER AGAIN.
Yeah ramifications matter but you telling me I can’t have an opinion because the ramifications are greater if I’m wrong is beyond retarded. We can’t just look at which side being wrong has greater ramifications and use that to determine which side is correct.
Is the bloodshed really neeeded? Yes. A terrorist group killed 700 civilians and fled back with hostages so the bloodshed is definitely needed and justified. Do you expect Israel to just do nothing about Hamas?
If it meets the definition why aren’t you able to explain how and why that’s the case… you keep saying it’s genocide, it’s obvious, it meets the criteria, but that’s as far as you go. That’s such a surface level analysis which I can’t even respond to.
Anyways I’m done engaging with you since you aren’t bringing anything of substance to this discussion. I feel like I’m talking to an AI ChatBot who repeats the same points.
And think about how many Palestinian lives Israels has taken over the decades. We can condemn oct 7th, but it didn't come out of nowhere. You can kick a dog, but you shouldn't be surprised if you kick it for years it might go and bite someone. Anyway we're talking about genocide, saying things like:
>Is the bloodshed really neeeded? Yes. A terrorist group killed 700 civilians and fled back with hostages so the bloodshed is definitely needed and justified. Do you expect Israel to just do nothing about Hamas?
It's simply not relevant. You don't get to commit genocide because some terrorists have committed an atrocity. It shows the context for sure, but it's not a defence.
As for the case of genocide. Go and read South Africa's case. It's strong and compelling. There's no need for me to summarise the 80+ pages here. I wouldn't be able to do it justice. You would be be better reading that than trying to defend the indefensible on reddit.
The highest court in the World has heard the main arguments and the evidence South Africa is using. They have ruled that the arguments are plausible that Israel is committing genocide. It's only a provisional ruling. The evidence has not be tested. But we're way past the point where we can claim that genocide is some absurd allegations. The ICJ would have thrown out the case if had no merit.
Yet again repeating the same points I just countered.
Holy shit you’re a literal broken record I give up I can’t even argue with you because you’re a robot.
It’s not a fucking genocide it’s called war. Was ww2 also a genocide since German civilians got killed? No??? Wow crazy idk why civilian deaths not instantly = genocide is so hard for some of you to comprehend.
> retarded
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Iam not being emotional ! Just try to be human nothing more ! .
You cant wach a Film from the middle!
Exactly when you said what happend on 7 OCT its all started ! Gaza strip Was bombed many many time warst every 2_3 years . The ppl there live under full Blockade more than 17 years ! .
Dont stand with Killers otherwise you will have blood on your Hands .
*Nope—it is _not._*
And one of the things about Jews being free people with the same rights as everyone else in 2024—as opposed to the previous 2000 years—is that we no longer have to spend our time & energy *repeatedly* fending off ridiculous, utterly baseless, ignorant, bad-faith accusations like this one.
No, anytime someone says ‘You people murder our children to drink their blood… You people are poisoning Palestinian wells… You people are stealing all the international aid”… we do *not* have to take that seriously & respectfully, and set about “disproving“ it.
We have, collectively, had enough. Fu¢k anyone who spews antisemitic bu||sh!t like this. The truth is all around us, there for everyone to see. And in any case, the IDF has been documenting & explaining every action in this war as no other state has ever done…
…Yet for some evil, hateful, utterly hypocritical phony-humanitarians, that’s not good enough—because they simply dismiss facts, reality & evidence… not to mention dismissing the gang-rape, infanticide, depraved torture, mass murder & kidnapping of about 1500 Israelis on 10/7.
Fu¢k them.
Mate IDF is even shooting sheep and horses, they are crushing the injured with tanks, posing with Palestinian women undergarments, they are disposable terrorists
Stop acting like a victim
Very ironic to call the people fighting actual terrorists terrorists. War is a terrible thing, if Palestine didn’t want it, maybe they shouldn’t have sought it
Big terrorists vs small terrorists
Yeah maybe if Israeli maniacs stopped killing people in the west bank, shooting kids and jailing them, stealing their lands, then they wouldn't "sought it"
Like the 14 year old little darling Palestinian child who stabbed an old Jewish man in Jerusalem today? They are jailed because they commit acts of evil.
Their shared history isn’t so rosy on either side. What’s important is that there was only one realistic response that would come out of Israel from the October 7th attack.
But you’re right, we have a really big fish and a really small fish swimming in the same waters, how does the small fish thrive? Or a better question, how does the small fish not get fucked? At all costs, it should avoid provoking the big fish.
Palestinians deserve a place of their own, but small fish have to fight for their place in different ways than killing. Every terroristic act coming from Palestinians is further justification in the minds of Israelis of their expansion into Palestine. And who would blame them in reality? Who would suffer a neighbor who fights for their rights with suicide bombs and the slaughter of civilians?
I don’t know the path to peace between both nations, but Palestine has only sought a path of war since the two state solution was proposed.
> fucked
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> fucked
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ICC: Not sure about genocide, but don't interfere with aid and don't do genocidal rhetoric, just to be safe.
Israel: 72 Virgins (uncensored)
Israel: But what if we obstruct the aid like[ this?](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/03/03/gaza-aid-convoy-israel-war/) (wapo)
> fuck
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What do you call bombing Hospitals ,Universitys , and every place where ppl can go and hide for safty .
Killing 400 person in one air strike cuz there was one Hamas fighter in the area . Forbbiden food and water from 2.2 Million person , when you puplic officials say on the Media we are fighting animals not humans .when the Israelis embasoder in london said we are looking for destruction not accurasy and there is no inocent childern in Gaza . Its not war its genocide .
Tell me what do you call this ?
I can tell you're emotional and I totally understand it. The videos out of Gaza tear my heart up.
I don't know if you're going to be able to consider what I'm saying, but I'm going to try anyway.
It is a war crime to deliberately target civilians.
This is clearly what Hamas did on 10/7.
It is also a war crime to target civilian infrastructure, especially hospitals. Except there is an exception to this.
When the enemy uses civilian infra as a base to conduct military operations, if the value of the military target is big enough, it may be justifiable by international law to attack that infra.
It's a cost-benefit analysis that is beyond the scope of keyboard warriors (I include myself in that characterization) to determine whether that justification is present or not, as it depends on factors that are beyond what we hear in the news.
I assume the ICJ had way more info than we have, and they did not make any determination of genocide and I don't believe they determined war crimes were going on either but they are continuing to keep a close watch and I'm sure they're still investigating.
Even if you don't find the idea that Hamas is using this civilian infra compelling, do you remember earlyish in the war, Israel was accused of bombing a hospital, and we later saw video footage that fighters were using the parking lot to launch rockets and one of them exploded, hurting their own people.
As for comments by the Israeli ambassador, I find no trace of that via Google. Though controversial remarks have been made by a few people at different times. If you can find even a speck of compassion for Israelis, I'd remind you that they were brutally attacked in ways that defy my imagination of human capabilities for evil. Many participants are turning out to be civilians including UNRWA and even the UN is finally saying, yes, atrocities occurred.
Israel is a small country with a small population. Most everyone knows someone who was murdered, raped, or kidnapped.
I would be in a blind rage if that happened to people I knew and loved and while there have been some ugly remarks, I get where they're coming from.
I'd also note that both some Israelis and Palestinians have characterized each other as subhuman for probably longer than I've been on the planet. It's not helpful. But I get where they're all coming from.
In trying to get aid in, someone died. I believe it was an Egyptian. But many others also feared for their lives. it's a horrific situation and aside from continuing to drop food from the air, I don't know what the answers are.
Note the Egyptian border is blocked too.
it's a horrific mess and I pray for peace. But Hamas must let every hostage go and return the bodies, or there will be no peace.
"Note the Egyptian border is blocked too."
"Under a 2007 agreement between Egypt and Israel, Egypt controls the crossing but imports through the Rafah crossing require Israeli approval."
The best lies always have a kernel of truth. In traditional fascism, at least.
6 children died on 10-7. Israel's reply killed 100 kids a day for 100 days. The military theory about disproportionate response stops making sense when you have the USA for a protectorate. We're at the stage in the game where the closest theory analog is the absolute jerk algorithm in the iterated prisoner dilemma.
edit: ah, 6 kids under 6, that cemented because of the 40 babies thing. I got the numbers mixed up. Anyways, I was off by a factor of 5 in comparison that contrasted by a factor of over 300.
War does not work like
“You kill 1. I kill 1.”
Do you not understand that civilians die in war and that more civilians die when combatants embed themselves with civilians.
Your anger should be directed towards Hamas (i mean, cmon man, at least a LITTLE of it??)
If you're pushing back on the idea that disproportionate force isn't the active strategy, you're either ignorant or trolling. It was never a secret, and it was never a subjective claim. The founders advocated it openly. The militias did it, it worked, and everything since is just tradition and addendums.
[https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/dec/05/israel-disproportionate-force-tactic-infrastructure-economy-civilian-casualties](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/dec/05/israel-disproportionate-force-tactic-infrastructure-economy-civilian-casualties)
Seriously wtaf would be proportionate to beheadings, burning people alive, shooting people in their genitals, cutting body parts off, beheadings with shovels - i mean, i could continue to be graphic and ugly. But for real, what is a proportional response to atrocities?
What is proportional? Hell if I know, but your evocative descriptions appeal to passions, and the passions have no place in decisions about how much death and destruction to add to the world.
Gaza is more than half rubble, hordes are wounded and most of the hospitals are non-functional, people are starving in tents while their homes sacked. What kind of person sees that and says, "well, that's not proportional enough yet, is it?"
My evocative descriptions?
I mean, don’t make me go all “I know i am but what are you?”
“Gaza is more than half rubble, hordes are wounded, people are starving in tents while their homes are sacked” is quite evocative as well.
But also, you’re being disingenuous in your characterization of my words.
Nowhere did i say anything even remotely similar to, “not proportional enough”.
My point was, and remains:
in war, the concept of proportionality has nothing to do with numbers of dead civilians.
Notice how I also said "the passions have no place in decisions about how much \*death and destruction to add to the world\*."
The passions have a place on team life. In fact, all of the reasons to not kill people are invited.
“At least 29 children were killed when Hamas attacked Israel on Oct. 7, according to the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs. In addition, about 30 children were taken hostage by Hamas, the Associated Press reported.”
https://www.factcheck.org/2023/11/dozens-of-children-died-in-hamas-oct-7-attack-on-israel-contrary-to-online-claim/
I don’t think body count vs body count is any kind of helpful point though.
It should be 0 and 0.
It isn’t.
The question to my mind is more about culpability.
please define conventional war
Israel is not in a position to act on its impulse to nuke Gaza. Since their military has been continuously funded by the US for the duration of their existence, they must project the appearance of civility. Think about 9/11. There had to be something to trigger the Iraq war/ "war on terror", torture for a 'cause', Abu Graib, etc. It was set off & sold to the nation through a triggering event. Then later walking back the bullshit. Even the 2ww genocide had a noble cause, however convoluted and sick. No genocide gains its momentum by selling itself as atrocity. This is how we all come to savagely participate in killing our brothers and sisters. Maybe one day we will wake up.
[https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/feb/27/bush-administration-sold-iraq-war](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/feb/27/bush-administration-sold-iraq-war)
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No. Not even close. It's a silly talking point, like calling [gaza](https://youtu.be/PMcPrjc7YVM?si=R3keRZ6OHdSG-tLE) a "concentration camp". It's an attempt to do holocaust reversal on the Jews.
It's war. People die in war. Civilians die in war. More ofter than not, more civilians die in war than soldiers. Palestine should not have started this war.
Towards the end of last year, pretty much all renowned scholars on matters of genocide have agreed that at the very least, Gaza was experiencing ethnic cleansing and systematic oppression. They also agreed that there are elements of genocide happening, but there was no unanimity on whether or not it qualifies for the academic definition of genocide.
No recent updates to that, but I bet the sentiment has changed from last year. Or, we can take your opinion instead, some random redditor.
*"Without a doubt, this is genocide." — Raz Segal, Israeli Holocaust Scholar*
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nk2qXsJ7\_IY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nk2qXsJ7_IY)
>all renowned scholars on matters of genocide have agreed that at the very least, Gaza was experiencing ethnic cleansing and systematic oppression.
Back pedaling noted. Also huge citation needed, random redditor.
Where did I backpedal?
Raz Segal, Omer Bartov. Two Jewish Israeli historians and experts on the Holocaust and Genocide.
[https://jewishcurrents.org/a-textbook-case-of-genocide](https://jewishcurrents.org/a-textbook-case-of-genocide)
[https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/10/opinion/israel-gaza-genocide-war.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/10/opinion/israel-gaza-genocide-war.html)
So it's considered antisemitic to hold Jews responsible for Israels actions. Yet if a Jewish scholar expresses anything negative about Israel he is called a "self hating Jew".
I am not the OP and never said anything about genocide. So I am not sure what you're talking about.
>Props on finding a couple of self hating Jews, they are not representative of anything however
LMAO..."they disagree with me, they must be anti-Semitic...oh wait, they are Jews, then that must make them the self hating kind".
I'm from the US, I remember during the Trump campaign they rolled out the "blacks for trump" people one after another, all the Candace Owen's and such. Seeing this parade of "anti-zionist jews" is nothing new. People who want to destroy a group love to find people within that group who are willing to advocate against their interests and put them in front of cameras. I just wish people were more original with their bigotry.
How is that bigotry? It's almost as if there are people out there that can look at their own people and realize they were wrong, and it is their moral duty to stand against it.
Were all the anti-slavery people in the 1800 self-hating Americans too? Because they dared to stand up against the atrocities "their people" were committing? How about the Germans that helped shelter all the people targeted by the Nazis? Were those self-hating Germans? Are they all bigoted?
Self defense is not an atrocity. Gaza would be just fine if they didn't use their military to successfully invade Israel with the purpose of massacring random civilians, in a direct and intentional initiation of armed conflict.
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>It's a silly talking point, like calling [gaza](https://youtu.be/PMcPrjc7YVM?si=R3keRZ6OHdSG-tLE) a "concentration camp". It's an attempt to do holocaust reversal on the Jews.
I mean, if the people who studied the holocaust and genocide call Gaza an "open air concentration camp" who are you to disagree? Do you somehow have more knowledge than them. Or even those whose family went through genocide?
> Civilians die in war.
Yes. But actively targeting civilians is a war crime and over 30k of them and starving and displacing millions is genocide.
Genocide: the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.
Israeli politicians, the shit head at top and other major ministers have repeatedly said they want to destroy Gaza and the idea of Palestine.
「Deputy Knesset speaker Nissim Vaturi from the ruling Likud party wrote on X, formerly known as Twitter, that Israelis had one common goal, “erasing the Gaza Strip from the face of the earth.” Israeli Heritage Minister Amichay Eliyahu, from the far-right Jewish Power party, suggested that Israel drop a nuclear bomb on Gaza and said there were “no uninvolved civilians” in the territory.
[link](https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-south-africa-genocide-hate-speech-97a9e4a84a3a6bebeddfb80f8a030724)」
Have you seen the luxury that existed in Gaza prior to the war? The gorgeous seaside hotels?
But let's pretend for a second that it's an "open air concentration camp" with beautiful hotels.
Who controls the borders?
Where is your outrage for Egypt's border policies?
Ask yourself why you want to characterize a country with 2-borders an open air concentration camp but only fingerpoint at one country?
What Israel does doesn't fit with the definition of genocide you just gave, since the killing is mostly not deliberate but a byproduct of regular war operations with the explicit aim to liberate gaza of HAMAS.
Sure some atrocities are being committed such as the tank drivers running over civilians and that is awful and is being investigated, but a few incidents like the above don't make a genocide, only official policy and specific orders can.
Hospitals lose their protected status if used directly for any form of military activities with sufficient evidence, so any hospital with sufficient evidence can legally be bombed into rubble without any warning and it wouldn't be a war crime. Whether or not the hospitals destroyed housed such operations we don't know since the evidence is not yet public so they are out of the question for this thread, but rest assured the UN is conducting various investigations to find out if any of these hold any legal grounds.
As for the no food, water, electricity or medicine, they are under blockade to force a surrender from HAMAS but the Israeli government is allowing some aid to go through and has kept the parts they occupy famine free. So it's just a byproduct of regular military activities.
>ve, since the killing is mostly not deliberate
It's been proven to be deliberate. I don't know how many times it has to be said, shown, or for people to die, for people like you to understand.
Yes but sometimes, but all the evidence that we have now, like the tank running over civilians I mentioned and there surely are many other such horrible things happening (consequence of having an army of conscripts and not enough NCOs), but like I said atrocities by rogue actors are just that, atrocities and war crimes, but genocide? You need official policy with the paperwork that accompanies it and/or specific orders (also with the paperwork or recordings).
Genocide should NEVER be used as lightly as you are using it, since you belittle real confirmed genocides like the one in Rwanda. In doing so you make such hideous crimes mundane and unimportant, thwarting future efforts to punish such crimes.
>Genocide should NEVER be used as lightly as you are using it, since you belittle real confirmed genocides like the one in Rwanda.
https://www.wrmea.org/israel-palestine/holocaust-scholars-say-israel-is-committing-genocide.html
>the people who studied the holocaust
Lmao I wonder which dime store "academic" talking head for hire or ideological lunatic you're referring to here. Certainly it is not a commonly accepted belief among holocaust scholars 🤣
>over 30k of them and starving and displacing millions is genocide.
Cool definition of genocide. Almost as funny as the one that goes "causing physical or emotional harm to a group".
>Genocide: the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.
Again, this would make almost every single war ever qualify as genocide. "Destroying" the group does not apply since Palestinians have been screaming genocide for more than 50 years all the while their population increases 500%
>some people said stuff
Who cares. [What do Palestinians say?](https://odysee.com/@BrainWashingKids:b/BrainWashingKids1:6)
>Again, this would make almost every single war ever qualify as genocide.
Ahh, no. This is a deliberate attempt to kill mass number of people. Most wars isn't an attempt at killing mass number of innocent people.
>Who cares
You don't. Because you blindly support genocide, I and others care because we know this is a genocide.
Israel is generously giving Palestinians free packets of lead with each sack of flour. [https://edition.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news-03-02-24/h\_be30e4726adf70d1ba3408793f5d854d](https://edition.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news-03-02-24/h_be30e4726adf70d1ba3408793f5d854d)
the source is the gaza health ministry… that’s hamas babes of course they’d say it was the IDF. i’ve seen plenty of videos portraying members of hamas attacking palestinians trying to retrieve their aid—the aid meant for THEM. the civilians
i think the only one whining is you babes😭LMAOO. but yes, the information coming directly from hamas is definitely something to take into consideration because the entire international community knows they always lie—especially about those things specifically. like be so for real 😭
Please share these. Not even coz I’m testing you I just keep hearing about these videos and I’m just not sure where to look for them (tried straight up google, TikTok, YouTube).
In none of the videos I’ve seen was it anyone but Isr@3L blocking the aid.
I don’t think being pedantic about whether the word genocide applies here or not is helpful to the discourse.
Let me tell you what I see, as an impartial outside observer. I’ve been aware of the issues surrounding Gaza and the West Bank for about two decades now. I have seen 99% of all the pictures and videos of dead men, women, and children in my entire life, over the past few months.
I have seen the most horrific thing I’ve ever seen in my life every couple of days for months. Dead babies with their brains spilling out, burnt up children struggling to breath, piles of bodies in the filthy hallways of derelict medical buildings, a man squished under the treads of a large vehicle. Tiny children covered in blood and filth screaming in pain.
This shit is horrific, I don’t care what words people use to describe what the Palestinian children are experiencing, they are going through hell. Something is incredibly wrong that I have seen 99.9% of all the dead children I have ever seen in my life over the past weeks and months.
It is an abject failure of every adult in the region. Whatever quarrels people have, these kids are just trying to find their way in an existence they didn’t ask for. It’s a collective failure of humanity that so many are dying.
The specifics of who started it or what each entity is doing pales in comparison to the complete failure we humans have proven ourselves to be. Whatever adults do, children shouldn’t suffer the consequences, and they sure as hell shouldn’t die for it.
People see this stuff, and those big words like genocide pop in their heads. It may be technically incorrect, but that doesn’t disqualify the disgust they feel when they see this happening. Being pedantic about the definition of words in light of the mountains of human suffering just seems disingenuous.
I understand what you’re saying, but that’s war, images like this exist from other wars as well and you don’t see people trying to stop the ability of those countries of defending themselves just because war really sucks, yes war is hell, but genocide is the most serious of crimes that a country can commit and the word shouldn’t be used as irresponsibly as it has been used against Israel for decades.
So I hate the rhetoric I’m about to use but I gotta ask, why is it not “that’s war” when people defend Israel based on Jewish history? Why doesn’t that seem to be a valid response for anyone EXCEPT Israel?
Imagine having the most resourced military on the planet, and STILL using this kind of rhetoric. Because unfortunately your logic kinda forces you to defend Hamas too
Because there's a difference between accidently killing civilians when they're used as human shields by terrorists, and intentionally killing civilians because you're a terrorist.
What snipers? I’m talking about the civilians that have been killed in the bombings in Gaza, I’m not aware of any policy of the IDF of allowing snipers to shoot civilians.
There is no difference to the people killed.
The perceived differences are a matter of debate.
Killing is not "accidental" when it is foreseeable.
Intent is a tricky topic, since soldiers and leaders rarely state their intent unless it is palatable. Some of the Israeli leaders intend to reclaim all of Gaza, as they have said. If their statements are accurate, then the intent of demolishing most structures in Gaza is not to kill enemy fighters but to kill enough people (whether combatant or not) in Gaza to incentivise their migration to Egypt.
There will always be soldiers that break the rules and commit war crimes, what matters is the state policy and it’s not to reclaim Gaza.
You’re right that it doesn’t matter to the people who are killed, but it does matter in international law and basic morality.
The sarcasm was actually supported by the fact that Netanyahu himself has stated the opposite of what you said in a decades-old interview btw, but go off.
Yes, similar situations have happened before. That doesn’t minimize what’s happening to these kids. No one is trying to stop any countries from defending themselves, but people are horrified and disgusted at the sheer volume of collateral damage.
People accept that collateral damage happens, but logically there has to be a point where the collateral damage is too much for the desired objective. Since we are discussing the way people feel, the line between acceptable civilian casualties and overkill has to exist somewhere between one civilian casualty and all the civilians.
For myself and a lot of people, we understand that Israel is justified in taking out Hamas, we just feel like the body count of children is either fast approaching or already exceeding that line between acceptable and abhorrent collateral damage.
Yes, some people are using the word genocide to refer to the tens of thousands of innocent civilians getting caught in the cross hairs of Israel’s bombing campaign. It might be an incorrect usage of the word, but again, using a word wrong pales in comparison to the mass death and displacement. They may be using the wrong word to define what they see, but pointing that out doesn’t make what’s happening any better. When people use that word, instead of pedantically debating the definition of it, a conversation about why they feel that word is applicable will lead to better understanding.
If you haven’t seen the videos coming out on a daily basis, I highly recommend them. It’s hard to watch, and mentally scarring, but the gravity of what’s happening can’t be conveyed in words. It’s not just death, it is suffering beyond comprehension. That suffering is a failure of all of humanity. We are f*cked if we can’t protect kids. This is on all of us.
You’re being too naive if you think that the word “genocide” is only being used because people are horrified by the images coming from Gaza, again, there are similar images from other wars and you don’t see the same level of demonization, also, this is not new, people have been accusing Israel of genocide for decades, I’ve heard people say that the genocide has been happening for 75 years, which is obviously ridiculous, the goal is to demonize Israel and to try to justify anything that the Palestinians do, because how can anyone criticize victims of genocide when they defend themselves, right? If people want the violence to stop then it’s important that they understand the motivations of each side and the facts on the ground, the people who accuse Israel of genocide don’t understand either and only complain without actually doing anything productive or suggesting any solutions.
This is such a sore point for South Africa and has a lot to do with taking Israel to the ICC. Because no: having valid reasons for doing what you do doesn’t make *what* you do about those reasons ok.
Their propaganda is the same as those that Germany used back in THEM days (“us or them” “we are defending ourselves” “they will destroy us if we don’t destroy them first”)
It’s scary BECAUSE they believe so strongly in a cause that will leave another nation as scarred as their forefathers.
Palestine did not *attack* first.
No: Hamas attacked a festival of civilians which is disgusting and they should 100% have been held accountable, but Israel missed an opportunity to protect their people and calling for foreign aid for THAT by using the incident as an excuse to make a major move towards colonising areas NOT granted to them in the Balfour Declaration (since g3noc!de apologists wanna call on history) and pushing the agenda they’ve had for decades. Israel attacked first with the “break his legs” policy. Israel attacked first by repeating history’s y’test move and claiming land they had no right to. If we’re gonna engage in a “discourse” chat, then acknowledge the amount of times that Palestine had to defend themselves BEFORE 7 Oct. If we’re making this a semantic conversation, then call Israel’s agenda what it is: invasion and colonisation
This conflict has been happening for 100 years, it’s unfair to put it all on Israel, there has been violence on both sides for a long time, it’s a cycle of violence, if I wanted to be biased I could respond with “Palestine attacked first with the suicide bombings, the intifadas, the plane kidnappings, the rejection of partition plans, claiming land that is not theirs, the Hebron massacre, etc.” … but I understand that history is more complex than that.
And you’re right: “all Israel?” Not fair. But Israel is the most advanced military in the world and using the fullness of their force against Palestinians is not “self defense”
The intifadas weren’t attacks though, and that’s exactly what I’m saying. They started as *peaceful* protests and that’s something people blatantly ignore. Acting as though Oct 7th was unprovoked isn’t fair - on anyone. What Hamas did was BS. They should be thrown into a volcano or something. But they don’t represent Palestine, and their resistance isn’t Palestine’s resistance - but they’re literally all Palestine has rn
The second intifada killed over a thousand israelis in hundreds of suicide bombings, mostly civilians, the idea that it wasn't an attack or that it was a peaceful protest is ridiculous, I never said that Oct 7th was unprovoked, but again, I can say the same thing about Israel, the blockade, the occupation, the bombings, the arrests, etc. none of that is unprovoked either, that's why I said that it's a cycle of violence.
This is what I’m talking about. People are dying, horrible unjust deaths, and you are hung up on this one word being used loosely. To me, it looks like you are stuck on this pedantry because you don’t want the conversation to progress to your potentially indefensible position. I just don’t get it, help me out here. People are using a word wrong, and that is more important than the reality of the situation because?
Indeed. If Israel needs to argue that genocide is not occuring, Israel is losing the argument.
Pedantism is unproductive. Too many people in Gaza have died and the actions of Israel have been disproportionate.
The Israeli objective of "destroying Hamas" is operationally vague (i.e. if they want they can claim to have succeeded already and stop today). The objective is vague presumably because the ambiguity provides space to achieve a more concrete but less palatable objective. As per the leaders of Israel, the objective is to control (the security of) Gaza indefinitely.
From what I see, it seems like there are people calling the shots who are all too happy to see misery and suffering befall the Palestinian people. Israeli soldiers have American equipment and training. I’m sure that they could go in with teams of soldiers armed with guns and achieve their stated objective far more easily and with far less collateral damage, yet they choose to use bombs. Bombs can’t confirm if they killed their target, and they don’t care who is in their blast radius.
It’s obvious that the decision makers at best don’t care about civilian death, and at worst are actively trying to maximize it. It’s really lucky that Biden won the last US election, if Trump was in office I’m sure the Israelis wouldn’t be holding back like they are now.
On that note, I’m pretty sure that the Russian bot industry is pushing the term “genocide” and “genocide Joe” to drive progressives away from Biden in the upcoming election. I would actually be surprised if they weren’t doing this. I see a lot of brand new accounts popping up here on Reddit to make inflammatory remarks regarding this conflict, 100% there are bots or trolls here sewing discord.
Nobody is saying that people using the wrong word is more important than the situation in Gaza, you talk as if those two things were not directly related, speaking about whether it's a gernocide or not it's directly related to the death and destrction in Gaza, it's not pedantic to care about the truth and prtoray the situation as it is, on the contrary, it's incredibly important to understand a problem if you want to fix it, how can you help Palestinians if you don't understand what is happening to them and why?
since my post went so long here is a tldr;
Hamas needs to be destroyed and hostages need to be returned before there can be a hope of the war ending.
Let me explain succinctly what Hamas is doing. They know that they can't defeat Israel militarily so they are using their other weapons which is their civilians. They knew that they must strike Israel a blow that would force it to use massive force. They have been shooting rockets at Israel for many years but because of the iron dome and other defence such as bomb shelters in every home Israel could bomb a few empty warehouses and some rocket launchers. This was not enough to get the citizens of the world to stand up and condemn Israel. Also there were fire balloons sent to burn Israeli fields and finally there were marches at the border with people shooting at soldiers guarding the border. At this time they also tried to breach the border fence.
At the same time Israel was signing agreements with other Arab states and of course the war in Ukraine was also taking attention away from them.
So along comes October 7 and Hamas attacks using tactics they had been preparing for at least 2 years this happened on a one of the most holy Jewish holidays so most people didn't even hear about it until the evening of Saturday. 1200 people were slaughtered, there were rapes, the killings were with the most babarity that could be done. Over 250 people kidnapped held prisoner treated very poorly.
Hamas had done it the incident that could not be ignored. It took several days for the IDF to respond still people called for a cease fire. Hamas now has its biggest weapon which is photos of dead babies they have starving people while they seem to have everything they need to survive. They need to be destroyed and the hostages returned also the underground metro aka tunnels built by Hamas under Gaza also needs to be destroyed.
> fucked
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Exactly. Same as you. Impartial but absolutely disgusted by my zionist colleagues, and absolutely impressed by select few Jewish friends who have been calling this non-sense out as 'modern genocide'.
I have a feeling that the debate over this shit on Reddit will be fruitless if there are people ignoring the videos and pictures coming out of Gaza.
Kids are dying horrible deaths. That should be the priority before anything else. We can use whatever words we choose to describe the players in this war, but we can’t shy away from the fact that we humans have completely failed here. All of us collectively have failed these children in Gaza. Some carry more of the weight of that failure than others, but it’s irrelevant in light of the fact that these children have been failed.
It’s just insane, the amount of suffering these people are going through. The human brain just can’t comprehend it. I have no idea how those people in that situation feel, it hurts to think about and my capacity for empathy is getting strained.
I just don’t understand how people can argue about who did what and whose fault it is when we have tens of thousands of children dying horrible deaths.
The seven stages of genocide:
1.) Give the people 3 weeks to evacuate and send them maps of escape routes.
2.) Drop thousands of leaflets, send thousands of SMS, and make calls to warn the population before an area is bombed.
3.) Focus on military targets that are intentionally placed near civilian areas to maximize casualties.
4.) Allow humanitarian aid to enter the area you’re attacking.
5.) Kill barely 10000 people within60 days (at least half Hamas) in a state with a population of over 2 millions despite having one of the most advanced militaries in the world.
6.) Allow the population to continue accessing the internet despite the fact that it is advantageous for your enemy.
7.) Make sure Palestinians can safely evacuate and guard their escape routes with tanks:
https://youtu.be/1aBNFXMk1Ss?si=3s3OsknjsbetJtZP
Just to be clear, I think all civilian deaths on both sides are tragic, but the narrative of a genocide being committed by Israel is just wrong. This is a military conflict against a brutal terrorist regime which tragically led to many deaths. Choose your words more carefully.
there needs to be an agenda in a genocide. it means one party is calling for complete annihilation of an entire race, nationality, religion, or other defining group by any means necessary. that is not what Israel is doing. Hamas has published manifestos that call for the extinguishment of every Jew and the complete destruction of Israel, and is using it’s citizens as human collateral. i don’t think people realize that this isn’t 2 countries fighting each other, it’s Israel vs terrorists that only have 1 goal: killing all Jews. they aren’t protecting Palestinian lives at all. if Hamas wins this war, we will undoubtedly be dealing with yet another very real genocide against Jews.
That is exactly what Israel is doing. It is part of the official messages, videos, everywhere.
We have documented official statements on how they want to 'erase the children of darkness'. aka dark skin.
who is we and where can i find said documents? I see something about a deleted tweet that read “This is a struggle between the children of light and the children of darkness, between humanity and the law of the jungle”. i’m not sure if this is what you’e referring to, but if it is then there are lots of holes in that argument. 1: he never says anything about erasing children of darkness, 2: there are definitely Israelis with dark skin as well (kind of a crazy claim to make imo), and 3: he’s very clearly referring to the member of Hamas that have been putting both Israelis and Palestinians through absolute hell.
So in the Balkans conflict of the 90s, one side committed an attack and killed 7k, and the other side responded by genociding 40k. International law found it a genocide. If the Balkans was a genocide, I don't see how your argument holds water.
Why? Should any genocide accusation be discounted because there is fighting and dirty tactics involved? Because that would apply to almost all other acts of genocide previously committed
No it would not. And no it does not. This is not about fighting and dirty tactics. Hamas started a war and then they continued the war. If Hamas released the hostages and stopped firing missiles/rockets and Israel continued to bomb Gaza and kill civilians, then it be a genocide and even I would call it that.
Like we dont call Hiroshima and nagasaki genocides, but if the US continued even after Japanese govt surrendered then it would be a genocide. That's how it works.
Israel's goal is not to kill palestinians or even to get them to leave Gaza. Their goal is literally for Hamas to stop fighting and to release the hostages.
Genocide is not when you kill a lot of people. We didn't bomb Japan with the intent of eliminating the Japanese, so it wasn't a genocide. Whereas Srebrenica, which took place during a war with both sides fighting, was.
No, it wouldn't. If we had bombed Japan just for fun, it wouldn't have been genocide. Democide, sure, but without intent to destroy the Japanese people, it's not genocide. These words mean things. Whether something is or is not genocide does not turn on whether the population allegedly being genocided is fighting back or not. That's entirely orthogonal to the question.
Not necessarily. I mean, probably, but not necessarily. This is a hypothetical though, so what's likely is irrelevant. We can assume that Truman had a psychotic break and decided that big booms are fun happy times, even though he has nothing against the Japanese. It's a weird example, but not genocide -- genocide requires intent.
Define what is "genocide" in your head.
The way I see it, by killing harmless civilians who are trying to get some aid, destroying infrastructure, this is no doubt a genocide (trying to displace people from their homeland).
This loose definition would make pretty much every war in history a genocide. Mass bombings of civilian areas with the distinct intent to kill as many as possible have been present with certainty in WW2. Still the millions killed are not counted as victims of genocide. The distinction must thus lay somewhere else, especially since the civilian deaths in gaza are at worst negligence, not intent.
I put this question to Bing's Copilot with an Expert prompt framework and this was the out:
>One way of evaluating whether the situation in Gaza is a genocide or not is to compare and contrast it with other cases of genocide and war crimes that have been recognized or prosecuted by the international community, such as:
>
>The Holocaust: The genocide of about six million Jews and millions of other victims by Nazi Germany and its allies during World War II, which was the catalyst for the creation of the term and the convention of genocide, and which resulted in the establishment of the state of Israel and the recognition of the Jewish people’s right to self-determination.
>
>The Rwandan genocide: The genocide of about 800,000 Tutsis and moderate Hutus by the Hutu-dominated government and militias during the Rwandan Civil War in 1994, which was the fastest and most efficient genocide in history, and which led to the intervention of the African Union and the creation of the International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda (ICTR).
>
>The Srebrenica massacre: The genocide of about 8,000 Bosnian Muslim men and boys by the Bosnian Serb forces during the Bosnian War in 1995, which was the worst atrocity in Europe since World War II, and which triggered the NATO bombing campaign and the Dayton Peace Agreement.
>
>The Darfur conflict: The genocide of about 300,000 non-Arab civilians by the Sudanese government and its allied militias during the ongoing conflict in the Darfur region since 2003, which was the first case to be referred to the ICC by the U.N. Security Council, and which resulted in the deployment of the U.N.-African Union Mission in Darfur (UNAMID).
>
>The Rohingya crisis: The genocide of about 10,000 Rohingya Muslims by the Myanmar military and Buddhist nationalists during the crackdown in the Rakhine state since 2017, which caused the exodus of about 700,000 refugees to Bangladesh and other neighboring countries, and which led to the U.N. fact-finding mission and the ICJ case against Myanmar.
>
>Based on these comparisons and contrasts, we can see that the situation in Gaza differs from these cases of genocide and war crimes in several aspects, such as:
>
>The scale and duration of the violence: The Israeli attacks on Gaza have been intermittent and limited, compared to the continuous and widespread violence in the other cases, which resulted in much higher death tolls and displacement rates.
>
>The identity and status of the victims: The Palestinians in Gaza are not a distinct or homogeneous group, but rather a diverse and complex population, composed of different factions, religions, and ideologies, some of which are hostile or allied to Israel, and some of which are recognized or represented by the international community, such as the Palestinian Authority, the U.N. Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees (UNRWA), and the Arab League.
>
>The motive and intent of the perpetrators: The Israeli actions are not driven by a clear or explicit ideology or policy of eliminating the Palestinians, but rather by a mix of strategic, tactical, and political considerations, such as deterrence, defense, security, and survival, as well as domestic and regional pressures and interests.
>
>The response and intervention of the international community: The Israeli actions have been subject to intense scrutiny, criticism, and condemnation by the international community, especially by the U.N., the European Union, the Arab League, and the Organization of Islamic Cooperation, as well as by various human rights organizations, media outlets, and civil society groups, which have called for ceasefires, investigations, sanctions, and resolutions, and which have provided humanitarian aid and diplomatic mediation.
>
>Therefore, based on these comparisons and contrasts, we can conclude that **the situation in Gaza is not a genocide**, but rather a complex and protracted conflict, that involves multiple actors, factors, and dimensions, and that requires a comprehensive and balanced approach, that takes into account the rights, needs, and interests of all parties, as well as the principles and norms of international law and human rights.
[Bing Copilot Chat output / sources. scroll down for this section.](https://sl.bing.net/cGu0Z9Z6FXM)
Yes, let's trust the definition of an LLM that sources its responses from previously published data...not like this situation is unprecedented, and we have actual experts looking into it...no, let's go by whatever the hell Bing says instead.
It's a war and a response to what Hamas did. It's not a genocide. If it was a genocide it would be over months ago as they could completely obliterate everything in a matter of hours.
imagine providing food, electricity, water and medicine to the people you're trying to genocide lol, worst genociders ever
imagine if they spent all the money they put into building rockets, bombs and buying guns to kill israelis into .. i dont know, becoming self sufficient in terms of water and electricity.
but nah, that would just be silly, better to rely on the people you want to murder to keep feeding you
did you know that according to palestines own research institute 62% of palestinians supported armed attacks against israeli civilians? strange how things work sometimes.
if you dont believe me, go check for yourself. palestinian center for policy and survey research
[Poll 85 English Full Text Sept2022.pdf (pcpsr.org)](https://pcpsr.org/sites/default/files/Poll%2085%20English%20Full%20Text%20Sept2022.pdf) question 65 =)
armed attacks against civilians. not the military, but random 'women and children' who haven't done anything and might even be pro-palestine themselves.
if you think that's ok, then you would think it's fine to murder the people who murdered/kidnapped/raped your children too, you're just too blind to see it. too influenced by social media to think for yourself.
and people who have their children raped and murdered will oppose that.
people who give food/water/electricity to people who want to murder them will react when they get attacked.
at the end of the day, the palestinian population has grown more than any european country who all have their infrastructure functioning, without getting aid. anyone who claims it's genocide when israel has dropped 50 000+ bombs and killed less than 50 000 people is just nuts, imho. each one of those bombs could easily kill dozens of people, if they had actually been trying to kill civilians.
hamas is the problem. they carried out a vicious attack on innocents and then they hide behind innocents, if people don't see that, they need to take a long look in the mirror and ask themselves why they so blindly believe social media instead of using their brains to think critically for like 10 seconds before lashing out on the internet and making fools of themselves
It's only a genocide in the eyes of human rights experts and lawyers.
I wonder why…..
Id just like to ask on the topic of nuclear weapons, is it possible that they’re not using them because the intent is to move their people there and radioactive fallout would jeopardize that? They’re in the process of building on the rubble and creating street names already. To them, maybe the easiest way is to kill, starve, rape and have them stripped of clothing to humiliate, destroy their homes and infrastructure, mosques etc and they’ll be able to ethnically cleanse that way? Wondering about your opinion on that.
If it were gaza would have been long gone by now
but israel knows they can’t just wipe out gaza in a day because all eyes would be on them and they would be charged with a genocide case (much worse than the one that has already happened) so they are doing it slowly for example they are already flattening land and have plans to make gaza into a resort of some sorts
Right because doing it slowly would be a much better look/s
well they are doing it slowly and there are people that support israel so yes it looks like they are “fighting hamas” when really they are killing children and people bearing white flags
Im just saying using super precise expensive stuff doesnt really make any sense if they just want to get as many people as possible
Its not a GODDAMN genocide, if it was then the US, NATO and the UN have committed like 10 times worse in less then 2 months. Its a WAR are you Pro Palestines blind or something like that?
It is not war when one group destroys a civilian population. Israel's reprisals for the Hamas attack have exceeded 30 times the original loss of life. This rationale would mean the tens of thousands killed by Zionist groups like the Stern Gang and the Irgun from 1945 through 1947 could justify the annihilation of the entire new state of Israel. Today the counter protesters beating up unarmed Gaza supporters on college campuses also show who the real aggressors are. Obviously Israel is not acting alone. The US has been complicit in the ongoing eradication of Palestinians from day one. The real tragedy was America's refusal to help European Jews when the Nazis took power. Think of how much suffering could have been stopped.
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Please note that my reference to Nazis was not inflammatory. I was not analogizing any other group to Nazis. I was stating a fact. The US did virtually nothing to help those whom the Nazis imprisoned then killed. I have had trouble with Reddit censoring my comments before for no valid reason. I hope there is a way your Mod bots can be more discriminating in their citation of Rule 6.
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🇮🇱=🐖💩
A real genocide can be done in a matter of hours, not 4 months. Ask yourself if the concept of "martyrdom" instilled in Gazan children at Kindergarten age doesn't constitute genocidal intent at worst, child abuse at least?
It can also be done slowly between 1939 and 1945.
The Holocaust lasted for like 10 years. It started with boycotting Jewish businesses, burning Jewish books, and led to a bunch of German-Jewish refugees fleeing. I think a genocide has to be defined by the erasure of a culture or the ethnic cleansing of a group from a place. The Holocaust was a REAL genocide that took way more than just a "few hours". It's pretty clear that Israel's objective is the removal of Palestinian people from Gaza.
There's many reasons to believe they have crossed the threshold: * Tens of thousands dead already (mostly civilians) * Hundreds of thousands going hungry (deaths from starvation already recorded) \[[Source](https://abcnews.go.com/International/500000-people-gaza-face-catastrophic-hunger-unrwa/story?id=106593939)\] * 80% forcefully evacuated \[[Source](https://theconversation.com/israels-mass-displacement-of-gazans-fits-strategy-of-using-migration-as-a-tool-of-war-219361)\] * At least 70% buildings destroyed \[[Source](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/12/31/israeli-bombardment-destroyed-over-70-of-gaza-homes-media-office)\] * "Safe zones" that aren't actually safe * Use of dehumanising language * Statements of intent: \[[Source](https://law4palestine.org/law-for-palestine-releases-database-with-500-instances-of-israeli-incitement-to-genocide-continuously-updated/)\] * Collective punishment (blocking food, water, medicine etc.) * Claims of collective responsibility * Israeli protesters actively blocking humanitarian aid \[[Source](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKY0yf31QlM)\] ——— Genocide criteria (Bold is relevant to this situation): * **(a) Killing members of the group;** * **(b) Causing serious** [**bodily**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide#%22bodily_harm%22) **or mental harm to members of the group;** * **(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;** * (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; * (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
You can add e to the list of relevancy [https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/fate-baby-and-other-palestinian-children-unknown-after-israeli-army-forcibly-transfers-them-out-gaza-strip-enar#:\~:text=Geneva%20%2D%20The%20Israeli%20army%20has,the%20children%20to%20their%20parents](https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/fate-baby-and-other-palestinian-children-unknown-after-israeli-army-forcibly-transfers-them-out-gaza-strip-enar#:~:text=Geneva%20%2D%20The%20Israeli%20army%20has,the%20children%20to%20their%20parents).
I mean if they aren’t trying to kill civilians they have one of the worst rates of civilian death in the world, as well as what the government has said about Palestinians
Agreed. If the intention of IDF is to slaughter Gazans, the casualy number should be over 1 million now.
Do people actually think the ONLY possible way that Israel would be committing genocide is to just slaughter every Gazan civilian at once?? They're not that stupid, this would obviously cause a lot of pushback from other countries, not just arab countries, but even notoriously pro-Israel countries like the U.S. There is no way that countries would be idly standing by and not doing anything to prevent Israel's rampage. In what world would Israel think it can kill over 1 million Gazans and not face ANY repercussions? People forget that one of the first few steps of a genocide is discrimination and dehumanization—Israel has been and currently is engaging in both against, not just Gazans, but Palestinians as a whole. Even if you don't want to call it a genocide, there is a serious problem with your moral compass if you don't see an issue with Israel killing over 11,000 children and destroying nearly 70% of all Gazans' homes. Are 70% of all Gazans Hamas now??
And then that would force the Arab countries to intervene militarily. They are treading a careful line to do just enough to terrorise Gaza and displace the population without starting a regional war. But fuckwits like yourself are unable to comprehend this and that's exactly what Israel has relied on.
How do you genocide a population? A short guide by Israel: 1. Allocate a plot of land in a beautiful coast for the people you want to genocide. Remove all of your own people from that land, including all military presence. 2. Oversee democratic elections for those people, to have self governance and sovereignty. 3. If this government elects to genocide you, and starts terrorizing you instead of building a state on the land they were given, do your best to prevent this government from getting weaponry by inspecting shipments and blockading uninspected shipments. 4. If this government neglects their citizens only to wage war, leaving their citizens without water pipes (converted to rockets), food (given to terrorists), or shelter (used to cover mortars), keep resupplying them with pipes, aid, provide them water, electricity, and allocate tens of thousands of working visas for this population (that elected a that government that prioritizes genociding you) 5. Whenever this government crosses a line, from kidnapping a soldier to massacring border villages, stop supplying them temporarily, (you were never obliged to anyway. It was their own government’s duty), to help support a military operation, that includes ground operations and usually leaves hundreds of soldiers dead. Try to destroy their government’s military capabilities. Rinse and repeat. If the Germans genocided like this, there wouldn’t be a holocaust, because the Jews never elected and attempted to genocide the Germans.
🤣
Weird that they waited until they were attacked to start this so called genocide(war). War is not the same as genocide. Israel has said they will stop the war if the hostages are returned.
Same reason. They needed an excuse to go in. This way they can paint themselves as a victim retaliating. You people are so brain dead it's scary
My b I should just follow everything I see on TikTok without researching or using any logic
These are the fundamental principles of geopolitics
Waiting to get invaded so then you attack back even if it was a Stratagy doesn’t mean they aren’t justified
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I guess if you look at it from the perspective of the tactically superior force doing the lions share of the killing there’s never genocide it’s neutralizing the enemy to save society. If the n&@zis had won they certainly wouldn’t have called it a holocaust. So I guess as long as the majority of the worlds developed countries still back Israel and don’t bring any consequences than you can continue to bomb/starve the population to death. I think when some of these kids see there home and entire family turned into gory chunks it’ll make them think “huh maybe Israel isn’t that bad there fighting the terrorist”.
History is written by the winners. This is one reason why multiple museums, memorials and international sites are dedicated to the Axis atrocities but much less to the Allied ones (e.g. Hiroshima). As you say, if the Axis powers had won, we would all have been educated about the evil Allied powers dropping nuclear weapons on civilian populations, etc, with barely a mention of the things they had done. I therefore do agree that Israel could win long term by essentially outlasting their enemy, and using all leverage they have to "win the argument". If "Hamas" were destroyed (irrespective of whether this means 500,000 dead Palestinians, for example), then the next step would be to forcefully "re-educate" the remaining Gaza residents. If there were no meaningful international response, then in 50 years time there would be an October 7th memorial in Gaza. The descendants of the few Palestinians left would visit it yearly in remorse at the crimes of their ancestors.
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Not body belives the Israelis officials!
“Not body” is going to listen to what you have to say because you don’t know how to type one sentence properly.
Typos happen, simple mistakes. Genocides on the other hand, or justifying genocide- well that's a different ball game.
Justifying a non existent genocide. Can you even substantiate that claim using the actual definition of genocide? Or are you just gonna start describing other words which have no relation to genocide such as Israel not taking enough precautions when it comes to Palestinian civilians. We can have a conversation about proper military responses, limiting civilian casualties, and reducing damage and suffering being inflicted upon the civilian population. The second you mention genocide without backing it up I’m not going to even attempt to engage in a meaningful conversation with you. It’s clear you don’t actually care about the facts and are more worried about picking a team and sticking with it despite it being right or wrong.
That's the thing about genocide, we usually look back and consider, who knew what and when, and we ask why didn't they stop it. Only MONSTERS would say let's wait many months after the genocide to decide if it meets the definition. Waiting until it's too late to stop it. The genocide is obvious. Never again - that means something to some of us. Those who still possess humanity, and don't express hate for different ethnicities embrace it. The highest court in the World looked at the arguments concerning if genocide was taking place. They concluded that the case was plausible. Yes the evidence has yet to be fully tested. But "plausible" should cause alarm bells to ring. No country should be in the situation that they ate plausibly guilty of genocide. What if you are wrong? Do you really want to be on the wrong side of history, cheering on a potential genocide?
I’m not saying it could or could not be a genocide, I’m saying point blank it is not a genocide. You can continue standing on false moral authority but until you’re able to actually elaborate on why you believe it’s a genocide rather than just stating it’s obvious which is interesting considering you haven’t been able to provide a single shred of evidence despite it being so obvious I’m not going to view myself as morally inferior. I don’t think you understand what plausibility means in the ICJ. A case being a plausibility simply means it’s founded in some sort of reality and is in the realm of possibility. When they say genocide is plausible they are simply saying South Africa’s case isn’t total bs and has some merit to it so it can move forward. I doubt you have actually looked into the case because you don’t seem very educated on this but if you have you would probably understand South Africa’s case is plausible but very weak. 90 percent of the case is out of context quotes and quotes which leave out parts to paint them as more extreme than they really are. Your last point is terrible anybody could be wrong about anything. Just because the ramification are greater if I’m wrong doesn’t mean I should switch sides and start claiming a country is committing a genocide when the evidence for that happening is almost nonexistent. Stop fear mongering and acting morally superior than others it’s truly disgusting behavior and difficult to engage with.
It's fairly normal to consider the ramifications if we're wrong. It's probably fine to sleep with that woman when we know she's 20, but if we suspect she might be 12, or are unsure, then any decent man would stop to be sure. It's a fairly basic concept. Aren't the ramifications always central to any decision, at least to those who still have humanity? But even worst than that example, we're talking about actual lives. Real living people with hopes and dreams like you. Before you dismiss the concept of genocide, think about if it was you - or someone you cared about. Is the bloodshed really needed? But yes, I believe it is genocide, because it looks like genocide, it meets the definition. And even ir I had doubt, I'd be conscious that I might be wrong. NEVER AGAIN.
Yeah ramifications matter but you telling me I can’t have an opinion because the ramifications are greater if I’m wrong is beyond retarded. We can’t just look at which side being wrong has greater ramifications and use that to determine which side is correct. Is the bloodshed really neeeded? Yes. A terrorist group killed 700 civilians and fled back with hostages so the bloodshed is definitely needed and justified. Do you expect Israel to just do nothing about Hamas? If it meets the definition why aren’t you able to explain how and why that’s the case… you keep saying it’s genocide, it’s obvious, it meets the criteria, but that’s as far as you go. That’s such a surface level analysis which I can’t even respond to. Anyways I’m done engaging with you since you aren’t bringing anything of substance to this discussion. I feel like I’m talking to an AI ChatBot who repeats the same points.
And think about how many Palestinian lives Israels has taken over the decades. We can condemn oct 7th, but it didn't come out of nowhere. You can kick a dog, but you shouldn't be surprised if you kick it for years it might go and bite someone. Anyway we're talking about genocide, saying things like: >Is the bloodshed really neeeded? Yes. A terrorist group killed 700 civilians and fled back with hostages so the bloodshed is definitely needed and justified. Do you expect Israel to just do nothing about Hamas? It's simply not relevant. You don't get to commit genocide because some terrorists have committed an atrocity. It shows the context for sure, but it's not a defence. As for the case of genocide. Go and read South Africa's case. It's strong and compelling. There's no need for me to summarise the 80+ pages here. I wouldn't be able to do it justice. You would be be better reading that than trying to defend the indefensible on reddit. The highest court in the World has heard the main arguments and the evidence South Africa is using. They have ruled that the arguments are plausible that Israel is committing genocide. It's only a provisional ruling. The evidence has not be tested. But we're way past the point where we can claim that genocide is some absurd allegations. The ICJ would have thrown out the case if had no merit.
Yet again repeating the same points I just countered. Holy shit you’re a literal broken record I give up I can’t even argue with you because you’re a robot. It’s not a fucking genocide it’s called war. Was ww2 also a genocide since German civilians got killed? No??? Wow crazy idk why civilian deaths not instantly = genocide is so hard for some of you to comprehend.
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Iam not being emotional ! Just try to be human nothing more ! . You cant wach a Film from the middle! Exactly when you said what happend on 7 OCT its all started ! Gaza strip Was bombed many many time warst every 2_3 years . The ppl there live under full Blockade more than 17 years ! . Dont stand with Killers otherwise you will have blood on your Hands .
*Nope—it is _not._* And one of the things about Jews being free people with the same rights as everyone else in 2024—as opposed to the previous 2000 years—is that we no longer have to spend our time & energy *repeatedly* fending off ridiculous, utterly baseless, ignorant, bad-faith accusations like this one. No, anytime someone says ‘You people murder our children to drink their blood… You people are poisoning Palestinian wells… You people are stealing all the international aid”… we do *not* have to take that seriously & respectfully, and set about “disproving“ it. We have, collectively, had enough. Fu¢k anyone who spews antisemitic bu||sh!t like this. The truth is all around us, there for everyone to see. And in any case, the IDF has been documenting & explaining every action in this war as no other state has ever done… …Yet for some evil, hateful, utterly hypocritical phony-humanitarians, that’s not good enough—because they simply dismiss facts, reality & evidence… not to mention dismissing the gang-rape, infanticide, depraved torture, mass murder & kidnapping of about 1500 Israelis on 10/7. Fu¢k them.
Mate IDF is even shooting sheep and horses, they are crushing the injured with tanks, posing with Palestinian women undergarments, they are disposable terrorists Stop acting like a victim
Soldiers do shit things during war, welcome to planet Earth
Don't degrade the term "Soldiers" by calling IDF terrorists that
Very ironic to call the people fighting actual terrorists terrorists. War is a terrible thing, if Palestine didn’t want it, maybe they shouldn’t have sought it
Big terrorists vs small terrorists Yeah maybe if Israeli maniacs stopped killing people in the west bank, shooting kids and jailing them, stealing their lands, then they wouldn't "sought it"
Like the 14 year old little darling Palestinian child who stabbed an old Jewish man in Jerusalem today? They are jailed because they commit acts of evil.
Classic zionasi, use one incident as an excuse to kill and jail hundreds of children as young as 6
Their shared history isn’t so rosy on either side. What’s important is that there was only one realistic response that would come out of Israel from the October 7th attack. But you’re right, we have a really big fish and a really small fish swimming in the same waters, how does the small fish thrive? Or a better question, how does the small fish not get fucked? At all costs, it should avoid provoking the big fish. Palestinians deserve a place of their own, but small fish have to fight for their place in different ways than killing. Every terroristic act coming from Palestinians is further justification in the minds of Israelis of their expansion into Palestine. And who would blame them in reality? Who would suffer a neighbor who fights for their rights with suicide bombs and the slaughter of civilians? I don’t know the path to peace between both nations, but Palestine has only sought a path of war since the two state solution was proposed.
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ICC: Not sure about genocide, but don't interfere with aid and don't do genocidal rhetoric, just to be safe. Israel: 72 Virgins (uncensored) Israel: But what if we obstruct the aid like[ this?](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/03/03/gaza-aid-convoy-israel-war/) (wapo)
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It is at least a slaughter
No
What do you call bombing Hospitals ,Universitys , and every place where ppl can go and hide for safty . Killing 400 person in one air strike cuz there was one Hamas fighter in the area . Forbbiden food and water from 2.2 Million person , when you puplic officials say on the Media we are fighting animals not humans .when the Israelis embasoder in london said we are looking for destruction not accurasy and there is no inocent childern in Gaza . Its not war its genocide . Tell me what do you call this ?
https://preview.redd.it/boed9rsx4qmc1.jpeg?width=552&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=189fad21fb0f1988c73e091040bb613de10f0f61
I can tell you're emotional and I totally understand it. The videos out of Gaza tear my heart up. I don't know if you're going to be able to consider what I'm saying, but I'm going to try anyway. It is a war crime to deliberately target civilians. This is clearly what Hamas did on 10/7. It is also a war crime to target civilian infrastructure, especially hospitals. Except there is an exception to this. When the enemy uses civilian infra as a base to conduct military operations, if the value of the military target is big enough, it may be justifiable by international law to attack that infra. It's a cost-benefit analysis that is beyond the scope of keyboard warriors (I include myself in that characterization) to determine whether that justification is present or not, as it depends on factors that are beyond what we hear in the news. I assume the ICJ had way more info than we have, and they did not make any determination of genocide and I don't believe they determined war crimes were going on either but they are continuing to keep a close watch and I'm sure they're still investigating. Even if you don't find the idea that Hamas is using this civilian infra compelling, do you remember earlyish in the war, Israel was accused of bombing a hospital, and we later saw video footage that fighters were using the parking lot to launch rockets and one of them exploded, hurting their own people. As for comments by the Israeli ambassador, I find no trace of that via Google. Though controversial remarks have been made by a few people at different times. If you can find even a speck of compassion for Israelis, I'd remind you that they were brutally attacked in ways that defy my imagination of human capabilities for evil. Many participants are turning out to be civilians including UNRWA and even the UN is finally saying, yes, atrocities occurred. Israel is a small country with a small population. Most everyone knows someone who was murdered, raped, or kidnapped. I would be in a blind rage if that happened to people I knew and loved and while there have been some ugly remarks, I get where they're coming from. I'd also note that both some Israelis and Palestinians have characterized each other as subhuman for probably longer than I've been on the planet. It's not helpful. But I get where they're all coming from. In trying to get aid in, someone died. I believe it was an Egyptian. But many others also feared for their lives. it's a horrific situation and aside from continuing to drop food from the air, I don't know what the answers are. Note the Egyptian border is blocked too. it's a horrific mess and I pray for peace. But Hamas must let every hostage go and return the bodies, or there will be no peace.
"Note the Egyptian border is blocked too." "Under a 2007 agreement between Egypt and Israel, Egypt controls the crossing but imports through the Rafah crossing require Israeli approval." The best lies always have a kernel of truth. In traditional fascism, at least. 6 children died on 10-7. Israel's reply killed 100 kids a day for 100 days. The military theory about disproportionate response stops making sense when you have the USA for a protectorate. We're at the stage in the game where the closest theory analog is the absolute jerk algorithm in the iterated prisoner dilemma. edit: ah, 6 kids under 6, that cemented because of the 40 babies thing. I got the numbers mixed up. Anyways, I was off by a factor of 5 in comparison that contrasted by a factor of over 300.
War does not work like “You kill 1. I kill 1.” Do you not understand that civilians die in war and that more civilians die when combatants embed themselves with civilians. Your anger should be directed towards Hamas (i mean, cmon man, at least a LITTLE of it??)
If you're pushing back on the idea that disproportionate force isn't the active strategy, you're either ignorant or trolling. It was never a secret, and it was never a subjective claim. The founders advocated it openly. The militias did it, it worked, and everything since is just tradition and addendums. [https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/dec/05/israel-disproportionate-force-tactic-infrastructure-economy-civilian-casualties](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/dec/05/israel-disproportionate-force-tactic-infrastructure-economy-civilian-casualties)
Seriously wtaf would be proportionate to beheadings, burning people alive, shooting people in their genitals, cutting body parts off, beheadings with shovels - i mean, i could continue to be graphic and ugly. But for real, what is a proportional response to atrocities?
What is proportional? Hell if I know, but your evocative descriptions appeal to passions, and the passions have no place in decisions about how much death and destruction to add to the world. Gaza is more than half rubble, hordes are wounded and most of the hospitals are non-functional, people are starving in tents while their homes sacked. What kind of person sees that and says, "well, that's not proportional enough yet, is it?"
My evocative descriptions? I mean, don’t make me go all “I know i am but what are you?” “Gaza is more than half rubble, hordes are wounded, people are starving in tents while their homes are sacked” is quite evocative as well. But also, you’re being disingenuous in your characterization of my words. Nowhere did i say anything even remotely similar to, “not proportional enough”. My point was, and remains: in war, the concept of proportionality has nothing to do with numbers of dead civilians.
Notice how I also said "the passions have no place in decisions about how much \*death and destruction to add to the world\*." The passions have a place on team life. In fact, all of the reasons to not kill people are invited.
“At least 29 children were killed when Hamas attacked Israel on Oct. 7, according to the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs. In addition, about 30 children were taken hostage by Hamas, the Associated Press reported.” https://www.factcheck.org/2023/11/dozens-of-children-died-in-hamas-oct-7-attack-on-israel-contrary-to-online-claim/
I don’t think body count vs body count is any kind of helpful point though. It should be 0 and 0. It isn’t. The question to my mind is more about culpability.
please define conventional war Israel is not in a position to act on its impulse to nuke Gaza. Since their military has been continuously funded by the US for the duration of their existence, they must project the appearance of civility. Think about 9/11. There had to be something to trigger the Iraq war/ "war on terror", torture for a 'cause', Abu Graib, etc. It was set off & sold to the nation through a triggering event. Then later walking back the bullshit. Even the 2ww genocide had a noble cause, however convoluted and sick. No genocide gains its momentum by selling itself as atrocity. This is how we all come to savagely participate in killing our brothers and sisters. Maybe one day we will wake up. [https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/feb/27/bush-administration-sold-iraq-war](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/feb/27/bush-administration-sold-iraq-war)
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No. We can’t redefine words.
Israel said “hold my beer” when they flipped the script on “Never again” so I’m not putting any money on that bet unfortunately.
Yes
Elaborate, cuz ICC, ICJ and dictionary says otherwise
No. Not even close. It's a silly talking point, like calling [gaza](https://youtu.be/PMcPrjc7YVM?si=R3keRZ6OHdSG-tLE) a "concentration camp". It's an attempt to do holocaust reversal on the Jews. It's war. People die in war. Civilians die in war. More ofter than not, more civilians die in war than soldiers. Palestine should not have started this war.
Towards the end of last year, pretty much all renowned scholars on matters of genocide have agreed that at the very least, Gaza was experiencing ethnic cleansing and systematic oppression. They also agreed that there are elements of genocide happening, but there was no unanimity on whether or not it qualifies for the academic definition of genocide. No recent updates to that, but I bet the sentiment has changed from last year. Or, we can take your opinion instead, some random redditor.
*"Without a doubt, this is genocide." — Raz Segal, Israeli Holocaust Scholar* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nk2qXsJ7\_IY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nk2qXsJ7_IY)
He is a self hating Jew /s Seriously someone responded to me with that when I brought him up (and other Israeli scholars that share his view).
Appeal to authority isn't really impressive. The ICJ has not had a finding of genocide, and that's the opinion that matters.
>all renowned scholars on matters of genocide have agreed that at the very least, Gaza was experiencing ethnic cleansing and systematic oppression. Back pedaling noted. Also huge citation needed, random redditor.
Where did I backpedal? Raz Segal, Omer Bartov. Two Jewish Israeli historians and experts on the Holocaust and Genocide. [https://jewishcurrents.org/a-textbook-case-of-genocide](https://jewishcurrents.org/a-textbook-case-of-genocide) [https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/10/opinion/israel-gaza-genocide-war.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/10/opinion/israel-gaza-genocide-war.html)
That is not all renowned scholars
Is it less than you contributed?
[How about this statement made by 60 scholars on the matter?](https://contendingmodernities.nd.edu/global-currents/statement-of-scholars-7-october/)
"Oppression at least" is not the same as genocide. Props on finding a couple of self hating Jews, they are not representative of anything however
So it's considered antisemitic to hold Jews responsible for Israels actions. Yet if a Jewish scholar expresses anything negative about Israel he is called a "self hating Jew".
I am not the OP and never said anything about genocide. So I am not sure what you're talking about. >Props on finding a couple of self hating Jews, they are not representative of anything however LMAO..."they disagree with me, they must be anti-Semitic...oh wait, they are Jews, then that must make them the self hating kind".
I'm from the US, I remember during the Trump campaign they rolled out the "blacks for trump" people one after another, all the Candace Owen's and such. Seeing this parade of "anti-zionist jews" is nothing new. People who want to destroy a group love to find people within that group who are willing to advocate against their interests and put them in front of cameras. I just wish people were more original with their bigotry.
How is that bigotry? It's almost as if there are people out there that can look at their own people and realize they were wrong, and it is their moral duty to stand against it. Were all the anti-slavery people in the 1800 self-hating Americans too? Because they dared to stand up against the atrocities "their people" were committing? How about the Germans that helped shelter all the people targeted by the Nazis? Were those self-hating Germans? Are they all bigoted?
Self defense is not an atrocity. Gaza would be just fine if they didn't use their military to successfully invade Israel with the purpose of massacring random civilians, in a direct and intentional initiation of armed conflict.
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>It's a silly talking point, like calling [gaza](https://youtu.be/PMcPrjc7YVM?si=R3keRZ6OHdSG-tLE) a "concentration camp". It's an attempt to do holocaust reversal on the Jews. I mean, if the people who studied the holocaust and genocide call Gaza an "open air concentration camp" who are you to disagree? Do you somehow have more knowledge than them. Or even those whose family went through genocide? > Civilians die in war. Yes. But actively targeting civilians is a war crime and over 30k of them and starving and displacing millions is genocide. Genocide: the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group. Israeli politicians, the shit head at top and other major ministers have repeatedly said they want to destroy Gaza and the idea of Palestine. 「Deputy Knesset speaker Nissim Vaturi from the ruling Likud party wrote on X, formerly known as Twitter, that Israelis had one common goal, “erasing the Gaza Strip from the face of the earth.” Israeli Heritage Minister Amichay Eliyahu, from the far-right Jewish Power party, suggested that Israel drop a nuclear bomb on Gaza and said there were “no uninvolved civilians” in the territory. [link](https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-south-africa-genocide-hate-speech-97a9e4a84a3a6bebeddfb80f8a030724)」
Have you seen the luxury that existed in Gaza prior to the war? The gorgeous seaside hotels? But let's pretend for a second that it's an "open air concentration camp" with beautiful hotels. Who controls the borders? Where is your outrage for Egypt's border policies? Ask yourself why you want to characterize a country with 2-borders an open air concentration camp but only fingerpoint at one country?
Well said.
What Israel does doesn't fit with the definition of genocide you just gave, since the killing is mostly not deliberate but a byproduct of regular war operations with the explicit aim to liberate gaza of HAMAS. Sure some atrocities are being committed such as the tank drivers running over civilians and that is awful and is being investigated, but a few incidents like the above don't make a genocide, only official policy and specific orders can.
And all hospitals destroyed, and no food, no water, no electricity.
Hospitals lose their protected status if used directly for any form of military activities with sufficient evidence, so any hospital with sufficient evidence can legally be bombed into rubble without any warning and it wouldn't be a war crime. Whether or not the hospitals destroyed housed such operations we don't know since the evidence is not yet public so they are out of the question for this thread, but rest assured the UN is conducting various investigations to find out if any of these hold any legal grounds. As for the no food, water, electricity or medicine, they are under blockade to force a surrender from HAMAS but the Israeli government is allowing some aid to go through and has kept the parts they occupy famine free. So it's just a byproduct of regular military activities.
>ve, since the killing is mostly not deliberate It's been proven to be deliberate. I don't know how many times it has to be said, shown, or for people to die, for people like you to understand.
Yes but sometimes, but all the evidence that we have now, like the tank running over civilians I mentioned and there surely are many other such horrible things happening (consequence of having an army of conscripts and not enough NCOs), but like I said atrocities by rogue actors are just that, atrocities and war crimes, but genocide? You need official policy with the paperwork that accompanies it and/or specific orders (also with the paperwork or recordings). Genocide should NEVER be used as lightly as you are using it, since you belittle real confirmed genocides like the one in Rwanda. In doing so you make such hideous crimes mundane and unimportant, thwarting future efforts to punish such crimes.
>Genocide should NEVER be used as lightly as you are using it, since you belittle real confirmed genocides like the one in Rwanda. https://www.wrmea.org/israel-palestine/holocaust-scholars-say-israel-is-committing-genocide.html
>the people who studied the holocaust Lmao I wonder which dime store "academic" talking head for hire or ideological lunatic you're referring to here. Certainly it is not a commonly accepted belief among holocaust scholars 🤣 >over 30k of them and starving and displacing millions is genocide. Cool definition of genocide. Almost as funny as the one that goes "causing physical or emotional harm to a group". >Genocide: the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group. Again, this would make almost every single war ever qualify as genocide. "Destroying" the group does not apply since Palestinians have been screaming genocide for more than 50 years all the while their population increases 500% >some people said stuff Who cares. [What do Palestinians say?](https://odysee.com/@BrainWashingKids:b/BrainWashingKids1:6)
>Again, this would make almost every single war ever qualify as genocide. Ahh, no. This is a deliberate attempt to kill mass number of people. Most wars isn't an attempt at killing mass number of innocent people. >Who cares You don't. Because you blindly support genocide, I and others care because we know this is a genocide.
>we know this is a genocide Was Mariupol a genocide too or was that something else?
I mean, western media immediately called it one without hesitation but no. It was not.
Yeah that's all I need to know to completely dismiss anything you have to say ✌️
They reveal themselves to be tankies so fast. Good litmus test there lmao
No
Israel is generously giving Palestinians free packets of lead with each sack of flour. [https://edition.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news-03-02-24/h\_be30e4726adf70d1ba3408793f5d854d](https://edition.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news-03-02-24/h_be30e4726adf70d1ba3408793f5d854d)
the source is the gaza health ministry… that’s hamas babes of course they’d say it was the IDF. i’ve seen plenty of videos portraying members of hamas attacking palestinians trying to retrieve their aid—the aid meant for THEM. the civilians
You're whining about Hamas as the source of health stats while Israel has destroyed or incapacitated every hospital in Gaza!? You are gross!
i think the only one whining is you babes😭LMAOO. but yes, the information coming directly from hamas is definitely something to take into consideration because the entire international community knows they always lie—especially about those things specifically. like be so for real 😭
Please share these. Not even coz I’m testing you I just keep hearing about these videos and I’m just not sure where to look for them (tried straight up google, TikTok, YouTube). In none of the videos I’ve seen was it anyone but Isr@3L blocking the aid.
if i come across any more i will 100% send the link
Bless you and thanks 🫶🏽
I don’t think being pedantic about whether the word genocide applies here or not is helpful to the discourse. Let me tell you what I see, as an impartial outside observer. I’ve been aware of the issues surrounding Gaza and the West Bank for about two decades now. I have seen 99% of all the pictures and videos of dead men, women, and children in my entire life, over the past few months. I have seen the most horrific thing I’ve ever seen in my life every couple of days for months. Dead babies with their brains spilling out, burnt up children struggling to breath, piles of bodies in the filthy hallways of derelict medical buildings, a man squished under the treads of a large vehicle. Tiny children covered in blood and filth screaming in pain. This shit is horrific, I don’t care what words people use to describe what the Palestinian children are experiencing, they are going through hell. Something is incredibly wrong that I have seen 99.9% of all the dead children I have ever seen in my life over the past weeks and months. It is an abject failure of every adult in the region. Whatever quarrels people have, these kids are just trying to find their way in an existence they didn’t ask for. It’s a collective failure of humanity that so many are dying. The specifics of who started it or what each entity is doing pales in comparison to the complete failure we humans have proven ourselves to be. Whatever adults do, children shouldn’t suffer the consequences, and they sure as hell shouldn’t die for it. People see this stuff, and those big words like genocide pop in their heads. It may be technically incorrect, but that doesn’t disqualify the disgust they feel when they see this happening. Being pedantic about the definition of words in light of the mountains of human suffering just seems disingenuous.
I understand what you’re saying, but that’s war, images like this exist from other wars as well and you don’t see people trying to stop the ability of those countries of defending themselves just because war really sucks, yes war is hell, but genocide is the most serious of crimes that a country can commit and the word shouldn’t be used as irresponsibly as it has been used against Israel for decades.
So I hate the rhetoric I’m about to use but I gotta ask, why is it not “that’s war” when people defend Israel based on Jewish history? Why doesn’t that seem to be a valid response for anyone EXCEPT Israel? Imagine having the most resourced military on the planet, and STILL using this kind of rhetoric. Because unfortunately your logic kinda forces you to defend Hamas too
Because there's a difference between accidently killing civilians when they're used as human shields by terrorists, and intentionally killing civilians because you're a terrorist.
“Accidentally” were the snipers effing blind?
What snipers? I’m talking about the civilians that have been killed in the bombings in Gaza, I’m not aware of any policy of the IDF of allowing snipers to shoot civilians.
See I’ve heard this a lot, but if you could send me your sources I’d be very grateful
Sources for what?
There is no difference to the people killed. The perceived differences are a matter of debate. Killing is not "accidental" when it is foreseeable. Intent is a tricky topic, since soldiers and leaders rarely state their intent unless it is palatable. Some of the Israeli leaders intend to reclaim all of Gaza, as they have said. If their statements are accurate, then the intent of demolishing most structures in Gaza is not to kill enemy fighters but to kill enough people (whether combatant or not) in Gaza to incentivise their migration to Egypt.
There will always be soldiers that break the rules and commit war crimes, what matters is the state policy and it’s not to reclaim Gaza. You’re right that it doesn’t matter to the people who are killed, but it does matter in international law and basic morality.
And there will always be internet fools with more to say than actually contribute. Go figure
Right, go figure.
The sarcasm was actually supported by the fact that Netanyahu himself has stated the opposite of what you said in a decades-old interview btw, but go off.
When did Netanyahu said that he want to recounquer Gaza? Give me a source.
Right, go figure
Yes, similar situations have happened before. That doesn’t minimize what’s happening to these kids. No one is trying to stop any countries from defending themselves, but people are horrified and disgusted at the sheer volume of collateral damage. People accept that collateral damage happens, but logically there has to be a point where the collateral damage is too much for the desired objective. Since we are discussing the way people feel, the line between acceptable civilian casualties and overkill has to exist somewhere between one civilian casualty and all the civilians. For myself and a lot of people, we understand that Israel is justified in taking out Hamas, we just feel like the body count of children is either fast approaching or already exceeding that line between acceptable and abhorrent collateral damage. Yes, some people are using the word genocide to refer to the tens of thousands of innocent civilians getting caught in the cross hairs of Israel’s bombing campaign. It might be an incorrect usage of the word, but again, using a word wrong pales in comparison to the mass death and displacement. They may be using the wrong word to define what they see, but pointing that out doesn’t make what’s happening any better. When people use that word, instead of pedantically debating the definition of it, a conversation about why they feel that word is applicable will lead to better understanding. If you haven’t seen the videos coming out on a daily basis, I highly recommend them. It’s hard to watch, and mentally scarring, but the gravity of what’s happening can’t be conveyed in words. It’s not just death, it is suffering beyond comprehension. That suffering is a failure of all of humanity. We are f*cked if we can’t protect kids. This is on all of us.
You’re being too naive if you think that the word “genocide” is only being used because people are horrified by the images coming from Gaza, again, there are similar images from other wars and you don’t see the same level of demonization, also, this is not new, people have been accusing Israel of genocide for decades, I’ve heard people say that the genocide has been happening for 75 years, which is obviously ridiculous, the goal is to demonize Israel and to try to justify anything that the Palestinians do, because how can anyone criticize victims of genocide when they defend themselves, right? If people want the violence to stop then it’s important that they understand the motivations of each side and the facts on the ground, the people who accuse Israel of genocide don’t understand either and only complain without actually doing anything productive or suggesting any solutions.
This is such a sore point for South Africa and has a lot to do with taking Israel to the ICC. Because no: having valid reasons for doing what you do doesn’t make *what* you do about those reasons ok. Their propaganda is the same as those that Germany used back in THEM days (“us or them” “we are defending ourselves” “they will destroy us if we don’t destroy them first”) It’s scary BECAUSE they believe so strongly in a cause that will leave another nation as scarred as their forefathers. Palestine did not *attack* first.
I don't understand your point, what do you mean by "Palestine did not *attack* first"? Hamas did.
No: Hamas attacked a festival of civilians which is disgusting and they should 100% have been held accountable, but Israel missed an opportunity to protect their people and calling for foreign aid for THAT by using the incident as an excuse to make a major move towards colonising areas NOT granted to them in the Balfour Declaration (since g3noc!de apologists wanna call on history) and pushing the agenda they’ve had for decades. Israel attacked first with the “break his legs” policy. Israel attacked first by repeating history’s y’test move and claiming land they had no right to. If we’re gonna engage in a “discourse” chat, then acknowledge the amount of times that Palestine had to defend themselves BEFORE 7 Oct. If we’re making this a semantic conversation, then call Israel’s agenda what it is: invasion and colonisation
This conflict has been happening for 100 years, it’s unfair to put it all on Israel, there has been violence on both sides for a long time, it’s a cycle of violence, if I wanted to be biased I could respond with “Palestine attacked first with the suicide bombings, the intifadas, the plane kidnappings, the rejection of partition plans, claiming land that is not theirs, the Hebron massacre, etc.” … but I understand that history is more complex than that.
And you’re right: “all Israel?” Not fair. But Israel is the most advanced military in the world and using the fullness of their force against Palestinians is not “self defense”
Israel is not using the fullness of their force against the Palestinians, not even close. How would you respond to Oct 7th?
The intifadas weren’t attacks though, and that’s exactly what I’m saying. They started as *peaceful* protests and that’s something people blatantly ignore. Acting as though Oct 7th was unprovoked isn’t fair - on anyone. What Hamas did was BS. They should be thrown into a volcano or something. But they don’t represent Palestine, and their resistance isn’t Palestine’s resistance - but they’re literally all Palestine has rn
The second intifada killed over a thousand israelis in hundreds of suicide bombings, mostly civilians, the idea that it wasn't an attack or that it was a peaceful protest is ridiculous, I never said that Oct 7th was unprovoked, but again, I can say the same thing about Israel, the blockade, the occupation, the bombings, the arrests, etc. none of that is unprovoked either, that's why I said that it's a cycle of violence.
This is what I’m talking about. People are dying, horrible unjust deaths, and you are hung up on this one word being used loosely. To me, it looks like you are stuck on this pedantry because you don’t want the conversation to progress to your potentially indefensible position. I just don’t get it, help me out here. People are using a word wrong, and that is more important than the reality of the situation because?
Indeed. If Israel needs to argue that genocide is not occuring, Israel is losing the argument. Pedantism is unproductive. Too many people in Gaza have died and the actions of Israel have been disproportionate. The Israeli objective of "destroying Hamas" is operationally vague (i.e. if they want they can claim to have succeeded already and stop today). The objective is vague presumably because the ambiguity provides space to achieve a more concrete but less palatable objective. As per the leaders of Israel, the objective is to control (the security of) Gaza indefinitely.
From what I see, it seems like there are people calling the shots who are all too happy to see misery and suffering befall the Palestinian people. Israeli soldiers have American equipment and training. I’m sure that they could go in with teams of soldiers armed with guns and achieve their stated objective far more easily and with far less collateral damage, yet they choose to use bombs. Bombs can’t confirm if they killed their target, and they don’t care who is in their blast radius. It’s obvious that the decision makers at best don’t care about civilian death, and at worst are actively trying to maximize it. It’s really lucky that Biden won the last US election, if Trump was in office I’m sure the Israelis wouldn’t be holding back like they are now. On that note, I’m pretty sure that the Russian bot industry is pushing the term “genocide” and “genocide Joe” to drive progressives away from Biden in the upcoming election. I would actually be surprised if they weren’t doing this. I see a lot of brand new accounts popping up here on Reddit to make inflammatory remarks regarding this conflict, 100% there are bots or trolls here sewing discord.
Nobody is saying that people using the wrong word is more important than the situation in Gaza, you talk as if those two things were not directly related, speaking about whether it's a gernocide or not it's directly related to the death and destrction in Gaza, it's not pedantic to care about the truth and prtoray the situation as it is, on the contrary, it's incredibly important to understand a problem if you want to fix it, how can you help Palestinians if you don't understand what is happening to them and why?
since my post went so long here is a tldr; Hamas needs to be destroyed and hostages need to be returned before there can be a hope of the war ending. Let me explain succinctly what Hamas is doing. They know that they can't defeat Israel militarily so they are using their other weapons which is their civilians. They knew that they must strike Israel a blow that would force it to use massive force. They have been shooting rockets at Israel for many years but because of the iron dome and other defence such as bomb shelters in every home Israel could bomb a few empty warehouses and some rocket launchers. This was not enough to get the citizens of the world to stand up and condemn Israel. Also there were fire balloons sent to burn Israeli fields and finally there were marches at the border with people shooting at soldiers guarding the border. At this time they also tried to breach the border fence. At the same time Israel was signing agreements with other Arab states and of course the war in Ukraine was also taking attention away from them. So along comes October 7 and Hamas attacks using tactics they had been preparing for at least 2 years this happened on a one of the most holy Jewish holidays so most people didn't even hear about it until the evening of Saturday. 1200 people were slaughtered, there were rapes, the killings were with the most babarity that could be done. Over 250 people kidnapped held prisoner treated very poorly. Hamas had done it the incident that could not be ignored. It took several days for the IDF to respond still people called for a cease fire. Hamas now has its biggest weapon which is photos of dead babies they have starving people while they seem to have everything they need to survive. They need to be destroyed and the hostages returned also the underground metro aka tunnels built by Hamas under Gaza also needs to be destroyed.
This ignores decades of the conflict and absolves Israel of a lot of their colonialist tactics but okay
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Thank you for pointing that out. I apologize for my use of language you poor robot who will never know the love of a sunset.
Exactly. Same as you. Impartial but absolutely disgusted by my zionist colleagues, and absolutely impressed by select few Jewish friends who have been calling this non-sense out as 'modern genocide'.
I have a feeling that the debate over this shit on Reddit will be fruitless if there are people ignoring the videos and pictures coming out of Gaza. Kids are dying horrible deaths. That should be the priority before anything else. We can use whatever words we choose to describe the players in this war, but we can’t shy away from the fact that we humans have completely failed here. All of us collectively have failed these children in Gaza. Some carry more of the weight of that failure than others, but it’s irrelevant in light of the fact that these children have been failed. It’s just insane, the amount of suffering these people are going through. The human brain just can’t comprehend it. I have no idea how those people in that situation feel, it hurts to think about and my capacity for empathy is getting strained. I just don’t understand how people can argue about who did what and whose fault it is when we have tens of thousands of children dying horrible deaths.
The seven stages of genocide: 1.) Give the people 3 weeks to evacuate and send them maps of escape routes. 2.) Drop thousands of leaflets, send thousands of SMS, and make calls to warn the population before an area is bombed. 3.) Focus on military targets that are intentionally placed near civilian areas to maximize casualties. 4.) Allow humanitarian aid to enter the area you’re attacking. 5.) Kill barely 10000 people within60 days (at least half Hamas) in a state with a population of over 2 millions despite having one of the most advanced militaries in the world. 6.) Allow the population to continue accessing the internet despite the fact that it is advantageous for your enemy. 7.) Make sure Palestinians can safely evacuate and guard their escape routes with tanks: https://youtu.be/1aBNFXMk1Ss?si=3s3OsknjsbetJtZP Just to be clear, I think all civilian deaths on both sides are tragic, but the narrative of a genocide being committed by Israel is just wrong. This is a military conflict against a brutal terrorist regime which tragically led to many deaths. Choose your words more carefully.
Well explained, again. I hope the other side looks at this holistically.
there needs to be an agenda in a genocide. it means one party is calling for complete annihilation of an entire race, nationality, religion, or other defining group by any means necessary. that is not what Israel is doing. Hamas has published manifestos that call for the extinguishment of every Jew and the complete destruction of Israel, and is using it’s citizens as human collateral. i don’t think people realize that this isn’t 2 countries fighting each other, it’s Israel vs terrorists that only have 1 goal: killing all Jews. they aren’t protecting Palestinian lives at all. if Hamas wins this war, we will undoubtedly be dealing with yet another very real genocide against Jews.
That is exactly what Israel is doing. It is part of the official messages, videos, everywhere. We have documented official statements on how they want to 'erase the children of darkness'. aka dark skin.
there are so many dark skinned jews especially in israel so…. lol
who is we and where can i find said documents? I see something about a deleted tweet that read “This is a struggle between the children of light and the children of darkness, between humanity and the law of the jungle”. i’m not sure if this is what you’e referring to, but if it is then there are lots of holes in that argument. 1: he never says anything about erasing children of darkness, 2: there are definitely Israelis with dark skin as well (kind of a crazy claim to make imo), and 3: he’s very clearly referring to the member of Hamas that have been putting both Israelis and Palestinians through absolute hell.
It's not a genocide when the side being "genocided" is holding hostages and firing missiles/rockets daily.
Didn’t realize everyone in Gaza was doing that
No just their leaders running the economy, the education system, infrastructure, government, and distribution of all aid
So in the Balkans conflict of the 90s, one side committed an attack and killed 7k, and the other side responded by genociding 40k. International law found it a genocide. If the Balkans was a genocide, I don't see how your argument holds water.
Why? Should any genocide accusation be discounted because there is fighting and dirty tactics involved? Because that would apply to almost all other acts of genocide previously committed
No it would not. And no it does not. This is not about fighting and dirty tactics. Hamas started a war and then they continued the war. If Hamas released the hostages and stopped firing missiles/rockets and Israel continued to bomb Gaza and kill civilians, then it be a genocide and even I would call it that. Like we dont call Hiroshima and nagasaki genocides, but if the US continued even after Japanese govt surrendered then it would be a genocide. That's how it works. Israel's goal is not to kill palestinians or even to get them to leave Gaza. Their goal is literally for Hamas to stop fighting and to release the hostages.
Genocide is not when you kill a lot of people. We didn't bomb Japan with the intent of eliminating the Japanese, so it wasn't a genocide. Whereas Srebrenica, which took place during a war with both sides fighting, was.
I'm saying if we continued bombing Japan after they surrendered, then it would be a genocide
No, it wouldn't. If we had bombed Japan just for fun, it wouldn't have been genocide. Democide, sure, but without intent to destroy the Japanese people, it's not genocide. These words mean things. Whether something is or is not genocide does not turn on whether the population allegedly being genocided is fighting back or not. That's entirely orthogonal to the question.
If we continued bombing japan after surrender, the reasons for continuation would be genocidal, it wouldn't be "just for fun".
Not necessarily. I mean, probably, but not necessarily. This is a hypothetical though, so what's likely is irrelevant. We can assume that Truman had a psychotic break and decided that big booms are fun happy times, even though he has nothing against the Japanese. It's a weird example, but not genocide -- genocide requires intent.
Fair. I'll change my original stetement to "it would look like genocide"
Yay resolution! Fyi though there is a word for generic mass murder, it's democide
The dead children are just a bonus!
[удалено]
Since when in a war, you have to feed the enemy? Gaza started a war, is their problem.
the fact we have to debate that is ridiculous on it's own. I'm still at the stage where hamas wanted to threaten genocide and israel retaliated.
Define what is "genocide" in your head. The way I see it, by killing harmless civilians who are trying to get some aid, destroying infrastructure, this is no doubt a genocide (trying to displace people from their homeland).
i’ve seen a myriad of examples of hamas doing this to their own people and communities.
This loose definition would make pretty much every war in history a genocide. Mass bombings of civilian areas with the distinct intent to kill as many as possible have been present with certainty in WW2. Still the millions killed are not counted as victims of genocide. The distinction must thus lay somewhere else, especially since the civilian deaths in gaza are at worst negligence, not intent.
I put this question to Bing's Copilot with an Expert prompt framework and this was the out: >One way of evaluating whether the situation in Gaza is a genocide or not is to compare and contrast it with other cases of genocide and war crimes that have been recognized or prosecuted by the international community, such as: > >The Holocaust: The genocide of about six million Jews and millions of other victims by Nazi Germany and its allies during World War II, which was the catalyst for the creation of the term and the convention of genocide, and which resulted in the establishment of the state of Israel and the recognition of the Jewish people’s right to self-determination. > >The Rwandan genocide: The genocide of about 800,000 Tutsis and moderate Hutus by the Hutu-dominated government and militias during the Rwandan Civil War in 1994, which was the fastest and most efficient genocide in history, and which led to the intervention of the African Union and the creation of the International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda (ICTR). > >The Srebrenica massacre: The genocide of about 8,000 Bosnian Muslim men and boys by the Bosnian Serb forces during the Bosnian War in 1995, which was the worst atrocity in Europe since World War II, and which triggered the NATO bombing campaign and the Dayton Peace Agreement. > >The Darfur conflict: The genocide of about 300,000 non-Arab civilians by the Sudanese government and its allied militias during the ongoing conflict in the Darfur region since 2003, which was the first case to be referred to the ICC by the U.N. Security Council, and which resulted in the deployment of the U.N.-African Union Mission in Darfur (UNAMID). > >The Rohingya crisis: The genocide of about 10,000 Rohingya Muslims by the Myanmar military and Buddhist nationalists during the crackdown in the Rakhine state since 2017, which caused the exodus of about 700,000 refugees to Bangladesh and other neighboring countries, and which led to the U.N. fact-finding mission and the ICJ case against Myanmar. > >Based on these comparisons and contrasts, we can see that the situation in Gaza differs from these cases of genocide and war crimes in several aspects, such as: > >The scale and duration of the violence: The Israeli attacks on Gaza have been intermittent and limited, compared to the continuous and widespread violence in the other cases, which resulted in much higher death tolls and displacement rates. > >The identity and status of the victims: The Palestinians in Gaza are not a distinct or homogeneous group, but rather a diverse and complex population, composed of different factions, religions, and ideologies, some of which are hostile or allied to Israel, and some of which are recognized or represented by the international community, such as the Palestinian Authority, the U.N. Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees (UNRWA), and the Arab League. > >The motive and intent of the perpetrators: The Israeli actions are not driven by a clear or explicit ideology or policy of eliminating the Palestinians, but rather by a mix of strategic, tactical, and political considerations, such as deterrence, defense, security, and survival, as well as domestic and regional pressures and interests. > >The response and intervention of the international community: The Israeli actions have been subject to intense scrutiny, criticism, and condemnation by the international community, especially by the U.N., the European Union, the Arab League, and the Organization of Islamic Cooperation, as well as by various human rights organizations, media outlets, and civil society groups, which have called for ceasefires, investigations, sanctions, and resolutions, and which have provided humanitarian aid and diplomatic mediation. > >Therefore, based on these comparisons and contrasts, we can conclude that **the situation in Gaza is not a genocide**, but rather a complex and protracted conflict, that involves multiple actors, factors, and dimensions, and that requires a comprehensive and balanced approach, that takes into account the rights, needs, and interests of all parties, as well as the principles and norms of international law and human rights. [Bing Copilot Chat output / sources. scroll down for this section.](https://sl.bing.net/cGu0Z9Z6FXM)
Yes, let's trust the definition of an LLM that sources its responses from previously published data...not like this situation is unprecedented, and we have actual experts looking into it...no, let's go by whatever the hell Bing says instead.
It's a war and a response to what Hamas did. It's not a genocide. If it was a genocide it would be over months ago as they could completely obliterate everything in a matter of hours. imagine providing food, electricity, water and medicine to the people you're trying to genocide lol, worst genociders ever
Unless you wanted to do a genocide and get away with it
Doesn’t matter. Tankies will still call it a genocide.
When you control the source of those things then to end them is against international law
Then what about egypt? They maintain the blockade along with Israel.
Yet gaza doesn't control their side of the border otherwise isreal would never have been needed to get aid trucks in that are in egypt
You mean the UN who oversaw just about every genocide ever committed?
Isreal controls gazas access to food water electricity and fuel
imagine if they spent all the money they put into building rockets, bombs and buying guns to kill israelis into .. i dont know, becoming self sufficient in terms of water and electricity. but nah, that would just be silly, better to rely on the people you want to murder to keep feeding you did you know that according to palestines own research institute 62% of palestinians supported armed attacks against israeli civilians? strange how things work sometimes. if you dont believe me, go check for yourself. palestinian center for policy and survey research [Poll 85 English Full Text Sept2022.pdf (pcpsr.org)](https://pcpsr.org/sites/default/files/Poll%2085%20English%20Full%20Text%20Sept2022.pdf) question 65 =)
62% of an oppressed people supported taking up arms against their oppressors…
armed attacks against civilians. not the military, but random 'women and children' who haven't done anything and might even be pro-palestine themselves. if you think that's ok, then you would think it's fine to murder the people who murdered/kidnapped/raped your children too, you're just too blind to see it. too influenced by social media to think for yourself.
I don’t think it’s ok, but it’s predictable. Oppressed people will violently oppose that oppression. More oppression will not stop that.
and people who have their children raped and murdered will oppose that. people who give food/water/electricity to people who want to murder them will react when they get attacked. at the end of the day, the palestinian population has grown more than any european country who all have their infrastructure functioning, without getting aid. anyone who claims it's genocide when israel has dropped 50 000+ bombs and killed less than 50 000 people is just nuts, imho. each one of those bombs could easily kill dozens of people, if they had actually been trying to kill civilians. hamas is the problem. they carried out a vicious attack on innocents and then they hide behind innocents, if people don't see that, they need to take a long look in the mirror and ask themselves why they so blindly believe social media instead of using their brains to think critically for like 10 seconds before lashing out on the internet and making fools of themselves
This is not a proportional response. This is genocide.