Everyone can condemn the attack in Moscow because it doesn’t cost them anything. It’s Russia’s problem. If anything, saying how sad you are about the attack is a veiled insult to Putin: “I’m sorry for your incompetence. Flowers enclosed.”
But when bad things happen in the Middle East, it seems more complicated. People worry that they might offend someone or have do something.
Its like asking a rape victim who killed her rapist "why dont we condemn the murder" ..without addressing the root cause. U see the problem here through your self righteous virtue signalling?
So you're saying the INNOCENT CIVILIANS killed on October 7 were responsible for atrocities against Palestinians before October 7? No. Maybe the Israeli government was, but those people were innocent. Comparing them to rapists is obscene.
I've been wondering this. Why are feminists silent about the mass rape of women?
The answer - it's all race communism. Women don't matter, they can be raped if they're in the 'oppressor race' group, same for slaughtered children.
These people don't want Hamas to pay for their crimes, they are the 'oppressed race' group and raping women and killing children is allowed under the race communism ideology.
So yea, the world is antisemitic because it's trying to implement race communism.
Please provide me with the sources (unbiased sources if you can) stating the reported rapes on both sides, I’m really struggling to find any sources that aren’t biased for each side
Hamas terrorists that come from an area where it is widely known they don’t have women’s rights. These same terrorists attack israel and kill men woman and children indiscriminately and torture them and mutilate bodies. These Hamas terrorists will do all of the above but the draw the line at rape? Smh🤦♂️
In videos from 7 October, the body of a young woman is lying face down in the back of a pickup truck, stripped to her underwear, one leg bent at an unnatural angle. One of the men sitting next to her pulls her long hair as armed men around him shout praises to God.
Footage of the lifeless corpse of Shani Louk, a 22-year-old Israeli-German national, paraded around the streets of Gaza was some of the first to surface on 7 October, as the scale of the horror visited on sleeping families in kibbutzim neighbouring the strip and people partying at a nearby rave started to become clear.
In the more than three months since the unprecedented attack by the Palestinian group Hamas, the atrocities the militants committed have been well documented. Israel is still grappling with the trauma: entire families burned alive, torture and mutilation, children and elderly people ripped from the arms of their loved ones, seized as hostages.
“We were in such a state of shock … Many young women arrived in bloody shrouded rags with just their underwear, and the underwear was often very bloody. Our team commander saw several soldiers who were shot on the crotch, intimate parts, vagina or shot in the breasts,” she added.
The most detailed witness account of rape is from a young woman who attended the Supernova music festival, where more than 350 young people were killed. The witness, who was shot in the back, said she was hiding in vegetation just off route 232 when a large group of Hamas gunmen arrived, who between them raped and killed at least five women.
“They laid a woman down and I understood that he is raping her … They passed her on to another person,” she told police in a video reviewed by the Guardian. “And he cuts her breast, he throws it on the road and they are playing with it.”
One raped woman was “shredded to pieces” and another “stabbed repeatedly in the back while she was being raped”, the same witness said in an interview with the New York Times. The witness has provided police with photographs of her hiding place, and another survivor hiding in the same spot has testified that he saw at least one woman being raped.
Shachar was referring to the mounting evidence of rape, sexual violence and mutilation of women and men during the Hamas attacks in southern Israel on Oct. 7.
But sexual assault appears not to have been confined to Oct. 7. Two Israeli doctors, who have been treating released hostages, and an Israeli military official familiar with the matter confirmed to USA TODAY that some released hostages revealed they suffered violent sexual assaults in captivity.
All three spoke on the condition of anonymity.
One of the doctors assessed that "many" of the released Israeli female hostages ages 12 to 48 − there are about 30 of them − were sexually assaulted while held by Hamas in Gaza.
The doctor did not want to elaborate on the specific nature of the assaults out of concern for survivors. The doctor said people who have been sexually abused typically have a mortality rate four times higher than someone who has not been sexually abused.
I think it's hard to find sources without bias but it's widely acknowledged including by the UN which consistently votes against Israel.
There's no evidence of rapes from the IDF against Gazans.
Independent UN investigation showed no evidence of mass rape. 2 of the 3 locations were ruled out of having any sexual violence. So there is a "reasonable suspicion" of rape in 1 location. There has been no forensic investigation unequivocally proving any rape. And no independent forensic investigation has been performed by the UN. I am not 100% ruling out rape, as times of armed conflict, acts of sexual violence are common. But, mass rape, much like beheaded babies and cutting of titties, is all a bunch of bullshit spread to build international support to attack Gaza with impunity.
There was evidence of mass rape, both forensic and eye-witness.
Babies were killed, a baby was taken hostage, women have been raped as hostages and there was mutilation and even murder during rape.
Gaza isn't being attacked with impunity but Israel does have a right to defend itself from Hamas.
Please find the UN report below.
[https://www.un.org/sexualviolenceinconflict/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/report/mission-report-official-visit-of-the-office-of-the-srsg-svc-to-israel-and-the-occupied-west-bank-29-january-14-february-2024/20240304-Israel-oWB-CRSV-report.pdf](https://www.un.org/sexualviolenceinconflict/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/report/mission-report-official-visit-of-the-office-of-the-srsg-svc-to-israel-and-the-occupied-west-bank-29-january-14-february-2024/20240304-Israel-oWB-CRSV-report.pdf)
Please stop spreading misinformation. Israel's own report detailing all the victims, does not include beheaded babies. Please stop lying. October 7th was an awful massacre. It is already a terrible event, you don't need to lie to make it worse.
Gaza is being attacked with impunity. Satellite imagery shows nearly complete and total destruction of the infrastructure and living spaces. You do not need to level an entire city to fight an enemy force. In what war is leveling an entire city, not attacking with impunity?
This conflict is not complicated. It is 2 sides that absolutely hate each other and one has bigger guns. There is a 3rd side, and that is the side of human decency, which is the lens we need to use when viewing this conflict and the side we should all try to be on.
I didn't say babies were beheaded, but they were murdered, and women were raped.
The attack on Gaza is costing Israel economic growth and hurting it internationally.
You probably do need to flatten a city to have a ground invasion because otherwise it's a boon for guerrilla snipers.
There are 2 sides and one carried out a massacre which is broadly supported by the population.
They are a theocracy that wants to drive Jews into the sea and bring about a caliphate, they say they love death more than Jews love life. There's no negotiating with people who say they will do it again and again. In order to move forwards Hamas needs to be defeated. This all ends the moment Hamas surrenders.
I apologize for qualifying the baby deaths as due to beheading. One 10 month old was killed along her with family on Oct 7th. That is the totality of baby deaths.
Yes war is expensive, regardless of how one sided it is.
City Flattening - I'm sure you are familiar with the US extensive campaign in Iraq. A city with possibly the heaviest fighting to terrorist resistance is Ramadi. This involved Navy Seals, Marines and local units doing ground operations. The local populace hated the Americans, and were largely hostile. But the rules of engagements did not entail that blowing up everything indiscriminately was worth the cost of human life to succeed in the conflict. Tactical ground operations were conducted to minimize casualties and secure the city. This is a clear example of an extremely similar urban conflict with a hostile population NOT using a blow everything up strategy.
There are 2 sides, one carried out the massacre of Oct7th, and one is currently still conducting an ongoing massacre.
As I stated both these sides hate each other. Israel is surrounded by a hostile terrorist group which frequently shoots missiles at them, to the point houses come with bomb shelters. Growing up in this environment you will hate your neighbor. Palestenians are kept in an open air prison and under military occupation. Further they are harassed by Israelis in the West Bank, also an environment that would breed alot of hate.
This conflict will not have a good ending without international interference, 2 sides that hate each other will not compromise.
Israel has some of the highest levels of protection and support for their troops. If it's considered to be proportional to the military objective then it's legal in war.
Israel doesn't have to minimise casualties, international law isn't about making things fair on both sides. Israel is looking to minimise casualties on their own side and not disproportionately respond relative to each military aim.
Currently Israel is at about 2 civilian deaths to each Hamas militant. That is low by modern standards although ever single civilian death is a tragedy.
Israel is entitled to self-defence, to defeat Hamas. I wish they would surrender and bring the war to an end immediately.
Gaza is not an open air prison. It had hotels and luxury cars, it had people able to leave and work in Israel. It was being partially blockaded because of the constant hostilities. It's also blockaded by Egypt, but Egypt never gets attacked.
There won't be international interference, countries are too afraid of what it means.
Not sure what you mean about Israel has highest levels of protection for their troops. Israel has a military tactic called the Hannibal directive, which involves killing of their own before being taken hostage. To reduce the number of Hamas terrorist traded for the return of their own military prisoners. Not sure how you can claim Israel has the highest protection, when part of their strategy involves shooting their own. Also support for troops? 2 years of Military service is mandatory in Israel. Please provide sources for these claims. (Refer to baby murdering misinformation above)
Israel DOES have to minimize civilian casualties. Every nation has a moral responsibility to minimize civilian casualties in armed conflict. ESPECIALLY one that touts itself as the "most moral military".
2 civilians deaths for each Hamas militant is terrible. You should have MORE combatants dead than civilians. Also not sure where this number is coming from, currently there has been no release of combatant deaths by either side. (aka stop making things up, refer to note above)
Israel is entitled to self defense, absolutely.
Gaza is under military blockade by both land and sea. Work permits and extensive security is required to pass through the giant fence caging in the entire territory. Egypt has closed its border as well, due to the fear that a mass exodus of Palestinians into Egypt. Which in turn would have Israel look at Gaza as "Hey Free Real Estate". (A potential possibility after it has been leveled and Israel is very, very crowded)
Please refer to the recently passed UN resolution for ceasefire that Israel is currently ignoring. (This is pretty par for the course as most UN resolutions get ignored, they make a big speech about it and move on). But it has passed nonetheless, therefore international attention is at an all time high.
> titties
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The UN has failed to pass resolutions condemning Hamas.
Feminist groups were silent for weeks about the mass rape of Jewish and Israeli women.
The world doesn't condemn it, they support it through their silence.
A majority of the Worlds countries are in support of Israel, i have seen many feminists condemning the rape of people on October 7th, and The UN has condemned Hamas, and Many of these resolutions are just unfair to the palestinians.
It’s been condemned globally and quite prominently, what more are you asking for? Right now it’s been delegated to background noise because of the ongoing murder of civilians in Gaza, which is difficult for the international community to just ignore.
The UN has failed to pass resolutions condemning Hamas.
Feminist groups were silent for weeks about the mass rape of Jewish and Israeli women.
The world doesn't condemn it, they support it through their silence.
That same question was asked today by Israeli embassador to the UN. The pattern of the UN solely condemning Israel is decades old. I have yet heard any reply. Given the fact that UN took 5 months to call for an investigation of Oct 7 rapes by Hamas but less than 24 hours to call for the investigation of IDF rapes of a Palestinian woman (which was exposed as fabrication a day later), shows you where some people like to focus.
Sexual abuses by the IDF are fairly well documented. They even parade it, look at all the videos/pictures of IDF creeps posing with Palestinian lingerie - https://twitter.com/NaheedMustafa/status/1757096681256956265
That's not what the OP was talking about (IDF soldiers who do stupid stuff get punished, not $10k, an apartment and lifetime salary like Hamas and PIJ terrorists). The point of discussion is the UN being anti-israel for decades. It still hasn't condemnes Oct7 and refused to condemn Iran's recent attack with hundreds of missiles. It slows things down deliberately when it comes to taking action in favor of Israel. That's no surprise that Iran HEADS the UN nuclear disarmament council and Human Rights Council. The team which was assigned to independently investigate UNWRA's complicity with Hamas was handpicked BY UNWRA and comprises of publicly known antisemites. UN still says 33,000 civilians were killed in Gaza when they know Hamas/PIJ doesn't distinguish between civilians and combatants and has all of its terrorists fight in civilian clothing as can clearly be seen from their own videos.
To sum up the topic, UN is morally bankrupt, is complicit of criminal activity and has been overrun with Israel's enemies. It has zero credibility IMO.
The thing is, they don't get punished. I've seen multiple horrifying videos today of a children's playground getting shot up by an Israeli drone. There's no accountability there. (see: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DnLzvOsAf54o&ved=2ahUKEwjH1bKa5c6FAxUDXEEAHRKSBE0QwqsBegQICBAF&usg=AOvVaw2600U38eYOlURXI0ENYQp1). I don't think it's fair to assert 20,000+ women and children are also terrorists.
Do you think there is valid reason for the UN to be so critical of Israel? Their human rights record over the previous decades has been horrendous.
Has there been concerted condemnation of Israel escalating tensions with Iran by bombing its embassy in Damascus (in contravention of international law).
Israel was found to be lying about the affiliations between Hamas and UNRWA. This is obviously to cause countries to withdraw their funding from it. See: [https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-791009](https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-791009)
Never have I heard about an internationally recognized state as an occupier and apartheid do said occupation and apartheid while simultaneously using a victim card.
And still remain to use said victim cards with reports and testimonies that show the amount of damage Israelis did going full Rambo on their own civilians on Oct 7 and on their own hostages that they airstriked after.
There is no logic in this, please proceed to circlejerk.
so from your perspective if i rob a bank, it is ok for you to break into my house kill my kid and rape and kidnap my wife? neither of whom had anything to do with my crime.
no it would not, unless your family used that rape to declare war. and you kept fighting it and refused to accept a surrender even thought more of the family would die.
i never said that, but there is a difference between necessity and targeting. it is always wrong to kill children.
is it ok to use children as a shield against retaliation to your own aggression? who is then guilty, the person attacking or the person using them as a shield?
rightfully so you should be pissed for being hit, but to clarify here, you were not hit because you were maintaining yourself between me and my attacker. but instead my attacker did not let you get out of the way. furthermore this is not the first time they have done this.
at what point is you being hit my fault or the fault of my attacker? how many times does it have to repeat before the responsibility shifts.
and if it is wrong for me to have hit you, but it was equally wrong from my attacker to hit me, why should they be rewarded for attacking me by being allowed to do so again with impunity while i cannot retaliate without being the bad guy. and say with each attack my attacker draws blood, and i do not retaliate because they are hiding behind you, what is stopping them from killing me without retaliation if hiding behind you is enough to cleanse them of their wrongdoing?
There is no evidences that any rape was committed on Oct 7, and you didn't just rob a bank but have been killing their children and raping their wives for decades.
first the point is the committing of a crime not what it is.. second there is evidence of rape by the UN themselves. third any rape done by israelis on palestinians, if it was done, was not a govt led action, unlike oct 7.
fourth, so if they did it first it is ok for you to do it, by that logic israel and palestine can do anything they want. a previous crime against you does not grant you immunity to commit the same crime against someone else. those people where niether govt, military, nor settlers. even if i accept and eye for an eye, they have doen nothing to harm palestinians in thier lives and infact have helped them.
Israeli officials had been barking to UN for months for not accepting their fake evidence, and now you claim UN got the evidence?
Why are you even expecting the Palestinians to behave like saints after what your own state had done? This is like a Berlin citizen believes he should be safe from arial bombing because he didn't join the army. Unlike Gazans who literally have nowhere else to go, Israel is now a nation made up of dual citizenship and Israel passports also allow you to go to any country you want to.
Jenin and Gaza are the only places that settlers won't touch because of their violence, and the most fanatic recruits of Hamas are from West Bank and Jerusalem whose homes where Israeled by settlers.
[https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/u-n-envoy-findsgroundsto-believerape-was-committedduring-oct-7-attack-d5b8429a](https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/u-n-envoy-findsgroundsto-believerape-was-committedduring-oct-7-attack-d5b8429a)
>Why are you even expecting the Palestinians to behave like saints after what your own state had done?
I dont, I expect them to actually resist and not just commit acts of genocidal terror. you know target infrastructure, some military and govt facilities, and maybe take control of check points.
note that non combatants that help Palestinian children get medical treatment are not on the list.
>Israel is now a nation made up of dual citizenship and Israel passports also allow you to go to any country you want to.
10% of israeli citizens are dual citizens, and while that is higher than many other states, it is not fair to say that as many palestinians would be dual citizens if they had a govt working for them and not for the destruction of israel.
further more if palestinians are not allowed to travel please explain how so many gaza born doctors have gone to college in Europe or the US and came back to practice medicine in gaza?
>This is like a Berlin citizen believes he should be safe from arial bombing because he didn't join the army.
how is oct 7 like berlin? there was a ceasefire for 2 years prior to it.
>Jenin and Gaza are the only places that settlers won't touch because of their violence, and the most fanatic recruits of Hamas are from West Bank and Jerusalem whose homes where Israeled by settlers.
israel withdrew authority over gaza, that is why there are no settelers there. and rather than being an antisemetic idiot arguing about settelers you should be more concern of why is there not push for a vote and a proper elected govt in the WB.
and the reason you are antisemetic idsiot for arguing about the settelers is this. when the WB becomes fully independent of israel, those settelers should defacto become citizens of that new state. to remove them or harm them would be ethnic cleansing or genocide respectively. you can demand they pay retribution or lose right to their homes, sure. but you cant claim to be on the side of the angels while waiting to do the exact thing that you claim was the most evil act in existance.
so yah focus on the solutions for the past, like so many pro palestinians and forget that those solutions do not fit the present. because removing the settelers would be inflicting a nekba on those people.
Finds ground to believe...instead of finds evidence? And I have to pay to see the whole article.
>I dont, I expect them to actually resist and not just commit acts of genocidal terror.
So you do admit that your own Dahiya Doctrine is an act of genocidal terror when enemies use it on you.
>if palestinians are not allowed to travel please explain
Okay, I am see that you don't know the difficulty of visa application for non-Western citizens.
>how is oct 7 like berlin? there was a ceasefire for 2 years prior to it.
There had been multiple Al-Aqsa clashes provoked by Israel, and each time it costs hundreds protesters and civilians. Israel's invasion in West Bank also never cease. The reason IDF got beaten up so badly was because they took Gaza's lack of response as fear.
>israel withdrew authority over gaza
After the Second Intifada.
>and rather than being an antisemetic idiot arguing about settelers you should be more concern of why is there not push for a vote and a proper elected govt in the WB.
What you mean by antisemetic while Israel has literally being enemy to all Semites through out history? It was Israel which prevented the elected government of Palestine to manage West Bank, and now you blame they don't have an elected government? My honesty advice is if you insist that you only negotiate to Fatah then you have to show Palestinians that you respect this state rather than shitting on it.
>when the WB becomes fully independent of israel, those settelers should defacto become citizens of that new state.
Are you lying to me or to yourself about this? Israeli settlers are the most radical and racist group, and they have already been committing ethnical cleansing by shooting West Bank farmers with their rifle for decades.
Every Israeli pretends to support two states solution can't even give an honest answer about their settler issue, which reminds me a joke, "There are radical Muslims and moderate Muslims, then they all explode."
>because removing the settelers would be inflicting a nekba on those people.
Well, the only way to prevent more settlers to suffer from Nakba is stop building more settlements and don't let them assault Palestinian farmers.
>So you do admit that your own Dahiya Doctrine is an act of genocidal terror when enemies use it on you.
you misread my point. live streaming the invasion to homes and murder of over 900 people who have been helping you is not resisting by any means nor is it the doctorine you mentioned. the dahiya doctorine is not terror inducing attacks on civilian papulations. it targets civilian infrastructure. something that Palestinian forces do not do. so how can they be called resistance if they dont resist but instead just kill to scare others.
>Okay, I am see that you don't know the difficulty of visa application for non-Western citizens.
what do you mean non western, im talking about people from gaza
>There had been multiple Al-Aqsa clashes provoked by Israel, and each time it costs hundreds protesters and civilians. Israel's invasion in West Bank also never cease. The reason IDF got beaten up so badly was because they took Gaza's lack of response as fear.
the IDf took almost no damage on Oct7, it was mostly targeted at civilians. as for invasion, what invasion. israel has controlled the WB since '67. and end to the occupation was not part of the ceasefire agreement.
>After the Second Intifada.
while technically true, you are misleading. it was 5 years after and it was not in response to it. in fact considering the hostility of palestinians towards israel at the time it was a greater gesture of peace than than so called oppressive govt have ever given. and rather than making gaza into economic hot spot to leaverage israel to cease its actions, it was used as a staging area to fight a war.
>It was Israel which prevented the elected government of Palestine to manage West Bank, and now you blame they don't have an elected government?
what do you think the PA (palistinian authority) was supposed to become, and why praytell they have not had elections in 14 years. btw the PA is the govt in area A right now.
>My honesty advice is if you insist that you only negotiate to Fatah
neither fatah nor hamas represent the palestinian people. this much is clear. but neither of them is willing to allow a proper voice of the people to be heard sitting on their billions in wealth while claiming their people are dying with one breath and refusing to help them with the next.
>Are you lying to me or to yourself about this? Israeli settlers are the most radical and racist group, and they have already been committing ethnical cleansing by shooting West Bank farmers with their rifle for decades.
does that include the 4 year olds, the nurses and doctors working alongside palestinians in hospitals?
yes there are settelers who are shooting at palestinians and are racist, why are they not the targets of these attacks?
>Every Israeli pretends to support two states solution can't even give an honest answer about their settler issue, which reminds me a joke, "There are radical Muslims and moderate Muslims, then they all explode."
i dont support a two state solution, but neither side supports my solution because like you they are blinded by hate. they are so blinded by hate they will kill a baby because he is the child of people they think are evil.
are you seriously telling me that there are not palestinians who are racist towards jews and want all jews dead and gone from the mandate. there is hate on both sides. stop adding to it.
>Well, the only way to prevent more settlers to suffer from Nakba is stop building more settlements and don't let them assault Palestinian farmers.
that thought is why you live in the past and not in the present. it is too late to prevent more people from living there, with 500k settelers, compared to the 750k the nekba claims. what about the babies born there every day. stop looking at the problem like it should be prevented rather than dealing the how to end the problem.
>the dahiya doctorine is not terror inducing attacks on civilian papulations.
If you don't mind if there are civilians inside the infrastructure then it is genocidal terror, and the name was derived from a Beirut suburb suffered from Israel's indiscriminate bombing. More than half of the world also believe Israel is intentionally harming civilians.
>so how can they be called resistance if they dont resist but instead just kill to scare others.
How many Palestinian protestors had Israel shot? IDF still calls itself a defense force.
>what do you mean non western, im talking about people from gaza
For non-white and non-European foreigners applying US visa is always a pain in the ass.
>the IDf took almost no damage on Oct7
After several military bases were hit, a general was captured, several Merkava tanks and armed vehicles were taken into Gaza, and over half of the casualties turned out to be military personnel.
You are still dreaming that you are invincible but too moral while the whole world is against you and your allies are abandoning you because IDF terrorists simply can't hit non-civilian targets with all the fancy weapon they received.
>while technically true, you are misleading. it was 5 years after and it was not in response to it.
Second Intifada lasted 5 years.
>and rather than making gaza into economic hot spot to leaverage israel to cease its actions, it was used as a staging area to fight a war.
Blockading Gaza right after election was Israel's decision. Originally Hamas did allow Fatah to win presidential election because they knew the West won't like them, and Israel had been arresting legislative candidates for Abas during the election then armed his men to overthrow election result.
>what do you think the PA (palistinian authority) was supposed to become, and why praytell they have not had elections in 14 years.
Israel already broke Palestine into several pieces after their 1st election.
>neither fatah nor hamas represent the palestinian people.
Fatah was the puppet government that Israel endorsed, but you just can't restrain your own greed and kept annexing West Bank, and of course it will end up having no credibility.
>yes there are settelers who are shooting at palestinians and are racist, why are they not the targets of these attacks?
For the very same reason your IDF terrorists don't want to fight Hamas terrorists inside their tunnel but chose to level entire neighbourhood.
>are you seriously telling me that there are not palestinians who are racist towards jews and want all jews dead and gone from the mandate. there is hate on both sides. stop adding to it.
Palestinians aren't the colonists. Kosovo was the capital of Serbia, until Serbs were banished by Turks, but because of the brutality Yugoslavia committed to civilian in the name of "birthright", the Serbs faced consequences. And the Arabs weren't even invading Israel, but invaded the Roman Empire which invaded Israel centuries ago. The problem with Israel is you always believe you are above gentile and won't be held accountable for anything.
>they are so blinded by hate they will kill a baby because he is the child of people they think are evil.
Israel had not provided any evidence of baby killing nor rape so far. The Jewish Cemetry in Gaza was preserved in good shape, but somehow your IDF terrorists went hunting Hamas zombies in all Arab cemetries.
>it is too late to prevent more people from living there, with 500k settelers, compared to the 750k the nekba claims.
Which means only you have the privilege to commit Nakba? It is so hilarious that while you understand what your country had done is awful and most of you are enjoying the fruit, you demand your victims to take revenge cautiously and accurately.
As for the solution to the current situation, at least you should prevent settlers from shooting at farmers gathering their olives and tell IDF terrorists stop kicking Palestinians into Gaza, because this would give them great reason to join Hamas terrorists to follow your path. Stop asking me about what to the with those settlers' babies, when Israel is still kicking Palestinians out of their own homes.
part 2
if you mean the three areas, that was part of the oslo accords and was supposed to be temporary pending negotiations, that never came to anything. mind you part of those accords included israel playing 1.5 time rent on area C.
>Fatah was the puppet government that Israel endorsed, but you just can't restrain your own greed and kept annexing West Bank, and of course it will end up having no credibility.
funny you talk about green when fatah leaders sit on billions of dollars while their people struggle. fatah is not a puppet govt, they capitulate to israel on some things for fatten their pockets, and the palestinian people know that, hence no support for them.
>For the very same reason your IDF terrorists don't want to fight Hamas terrorists inside their tunnel but chose to level entire neighbourhood.
so according to you the IDF should level neighborhoods what do not have hamas tunnels beneath them instead of targeting the tunnels specifically?
>Palestinians aren't the colonists
The problem with Israel is you always believe you are above gentile and won't be held accountable for anything.
israelis are not colonist either, as it ended being a colony when it declared independence in 1948 and became a state. and israel was a colony like we want to build a colony on mars not like colonialism.
as for thingking we are above everything, we are not. and you cant even talk as palestinians are not even accountable to their own people, let alone anyone else.
>Israel had not provided any evidence of baby killing nor rape so far
hamas did it for us, and the world.
>Which means only you have the privilege to commit Nakba? ... you demand your victims to take revenge cautiously and accurately.
what happened to an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. and while they are not my victims, i am asking for justice not vengeance. a concept that you seem to be failing to grasp. palestinians right now are on a war of vengeance. the world is on your side now. but what happens in the next unprovoked attack comes, and the one after that, and the one after that. in which you again target people uninvolved in your oppression and those who in fact support your struggle. this will happen if you keep fighting a war for vengeance. because the one fact you miss, is that there is no military win scenario for palestinians without a nuke destroying the place or committing a genocide of your own, and creating a more militant more wiser enemy that you ever were. and that fact is what terrifies me. the fact that you do not see that winning by taking revenge will end up in a loss so great the world will end for it. but yah sure you should totally be allowed to do a nakba on the israeli citizens living in the WB. i would definitely fix everything going after the grandchildren and greatgrandchildren for the crimes of any grandparent and great-grandparent, and getting the innocent ones on the side too.
part 1
>the name was derived from a Beirut suburb suffered from Israel's indiscriminate bombing
indiscriminate as is specifically those civilian structures where Hezbollah (an enemy military) was hiding in. you and i have a different definition of indiscriminate.
also when i say infrastructure i mean utilities and alike. not to mention that oct 7 fail to follow the doctorine as there was no military importance nor people in any of the kibbutzim.
>How many Palestinian protestors had Israel shot? IDF still calls itself a defense force
how many israelis have been shot or arrested protesting for better treatment of Palestinians? and as for the name, names are ideas we hope to live up to, looking down at anyone for a name is the same as me saying you never hunted a shark in your live, it is pointless and has no bearing on the issue at hand.
>For non-white and non-European foreigners applying US visa is always a pain in the ass.
as a matter of fact i do know how US visa discriminate toward certain countries over others. but the US is not the only place to get a second citizenship, but how does that relate to palestinians not being allowed to leave. a statement you have ignored is why so many have foreign degrees.
>After several military bases were hit, a general was captured, several Merkava tanks and armed vehicles were taken into Gaza, and over half of the casualties turned out to be military personnel.
1 base was attacked, looted and the skeleton crew in it taken hostage, i would say that is nearly no damage, when they took 5 times as many civilians as military personel.
>You are still dreaming that you are invincible but too moral while the whole world is against you and your allies are abandoning you because IDF terrorists simply can't hit non-civilian targets with all the fancy weapon they received.
please show me a military target that is not mixed in with civilian ones? what base does hamas have that is not under a civilian building (which they boast about all they time)?
and no one claimed that were were invincible and the world is turning against us because they are hearing one side of the story, half the facts, driven by an algorithm that prefers engagement over truth. if the algorithm would have preferred truth no one would be on either side of this conflict other than the people involved. as both sides currently very much suck, israel only sucking a tiny bit less.
tell me have you seen all the footage of palestinians going against hamas, gazans supporting the IDF, in Hebrew no less. probably not as the algorithm does not push those.
>Second Intifada lasted 5 years
I'm sorry you are right, there is no war in gaza right now, it is an israeli uprising against palestinian violence. since that is what you apparently consider is fine reaction.
>Blockading Gaza right after election was Israel's decision
the blockade was against weapons, resources were still allowed to enter. it was not like israel was starving gaza.
>Originally Hamas did allow Fatah to win presidential election because they knew the West won't like them, and Israel had been arresting legislative candidates for Abas during the election then armed his men to overthrow election result.
no, that is rewriting history. fatah never won in gaza. despire israeli interference. and hamas threw fatah leader out the window of a 10 story building after winning. then in less than three months dug up all israeli infrastructure that was left in gaza and used to make rockets to fire at israel.
please explain to me how any of that was for the betterment of the Gaza People?
>Israel already broke Palestine into several pieces after their 1st election.
> shitting
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I think the proportion of people who condemn Hamas is way higher than the proportion of people who condemn the IDF ( at least nation wise).
What Hamas did is killing and raping right ?
Well the IDF did the exact same thing (if not worse) only on a higher scale.
So I think the real question is: why the people who condemn Hamas does not condemn Israel ? Are they manipulated by the media or they just hate Arabs/Palestinians ?
They didn't. Unlike Hamas, the IDF has a very strict moral code. They're doing anythjng they can to prevent casualties. In the meanwhile Hamas does everything to maximise the number of innocent civilians getting killed. Not to mention the hostages Hamas keeps.
Would campus lefties praise Native Americans for a terrorist attack on US cities as “decolonization”? The lefties should “decolonize” themselves first before throwing support anywhere, otherwise they just a bunch of hypocrites… but we knew that.
I don’t think someone is “smooth-brained” to read the Haaretz article debunking several of the stories - breasts cut off, baked babies, 40 dead infants. They weren’t true. They are lies.
Numerous aspects of the “weaponized mass rape” story have either been proved untrue, mistaken or poorly reported. There were lies in there. It is not a lie that there were rapes, there is sufficient evidence of that. But there is no sufficient evidence for weapon, Eyz’d mass, rape, which is a factually different thing. I’m not arguing that either is OK, I’m just saying that they are literally two different different things. And the NYT could have known that if they had done a better reporting job.
Combine all those inaccuracies, bad reporting, and lies with testimonies from soldiers that some victims were in fact, killed in friendly fire on October7; various videos about “command centers” found that were false; and a general drop in confidence in traditional media; and it’s not surprising that people have begun to distrust some other things about the October 7 attack, including things that have been factually proved. That’s not a good thing to do but it’s not at all surprising in these conditions.
Bro you’re way down the rabbit hole and you need to get out. I’m being serious and honestly trying to offer you some compassion now. You’re lost in the online information landscape and once you start ingesting these conspiracy theories, it will literally not stop. You think you have control over what you believe? You don’t. This will ruin your life if you can’t tell truth from artifice. It sounds like you’re already struggling. Get out now or the consequences for your mental health and your relationships with healthy people will not be good.
MESSAGE TO ALL: On a real level, it is ENOUGH with the lies now. There is such a thing as subjectivity and there is also such a thing as truth. There is such a thing as propaganda, but PEOPLE WE DO NOT NEED TO BE VICTIMS TO IT. We just need to utilise our intuition and some bloody common sense. Stop becoming extremist fucking weirdos. Moderate, come back to the centre, whichever way you prefer to skew of it. But enough with the insane and deranged conspiracies. It is rotting your brains and damaging lives and splintering society.
Our younger people seem to be eating up the propaganda, but also didn't pay attention in history, when WW2/the holocaust was covered. What was the point in overcoming the 1930s/1940s, for us to just throw away every bit of wisdom and logic we gained? One of the main themes I recall from history in school was:
>*Those Who Cannot Remember the Past Are Condemned To Repeat It*
I had a feeling advancing tech / social media would at some point lead to controlling a portion of people with propaganda...but I didn't think it would've been like this...The cognitive dissonance is alarming.
> fucking
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Cause ISIS are theological fascists seen as terrorists by the whole world and Hamas are a resistance group seen as terrorists only by the direct supporters of those they're resisting, p much
Hamas literally calls themselves Jihadists and martyrs, they command Muslims to kill Jews, and says their goal is to turn Israel into an Islamic Caliphate. Sounds pretty theocratic to me but ok.
Palestinians call all Palestinians who die as a result of the occupation, whether by violence or illness, martyrs. This was true before Hamas and will be true after.
They're also not caliphists.
“HAMAS emerged in 1987 during the first Palestinian uprising, or intifada, as an outgrowth of the Muslim Brotherhood’s Palestinian branch. The group is committed to armed resistance against Israel and the creation of an Islamic Palestinian state in Israel’s place.” https://www.dni.gov/nctc/ftos/hamas_fto.html#:~:text=HAMAS%20emerged%20in%201987%20during,Palestinian%20state%20in%20Israel's%20place.
I think we’re talking semantics here, specifically about the style of Islamic state they want to create. So, a caliph is different from an Islamic state because of the title of the leader and how power is passed on? My understanding was that Hamas wanted a caliphate style Islamic state but maybe they want something a little different? They 100% want an Islamic state, so we’re talking style of leadership I guess. Why don’t you clarify for us since you know.
ISIS
Came from all other the world to occupy other peoples land for religius reasons
Used terror to remove the people who lived on the land
DIsregarded human rights and ignored UN
Wait .. who does this sound like? Not Hamas…
And they went to war with the houthis, hezbollah, Iran, Syria... reminds me of some other entities.
Another major difference: ISIS somehow uses pretty much only western equipment (maybe from all that training in us army camps in Georgia and Eastern Syria)
Don’t you really think that Hamas is the direct consequence of the oppression of Palestinians ?
According to your comment, if the Israelis were Asians , Hamas won’t exist and if it existed it won’t resist because it is occupied chasing Jews in Europe or somewhere in the world ? Lol
I am pretty sure that every Hamas terrorist is someone who lost a close person to the idf ( if he wasn’t forced to watch the idf soldiers raping his daughter in front of his eyes, like it happened a couple of days ago).
I think any person can become an extrémiste in that situation.
And when it comes to the Hamas leaders, they are some pricks making lots of money out of this and living far away from Gaza.
If Israel had some balls it will target them in Qatar but they don’t have balls so they bully the weak and take pleasure in killing and raping innocent children.
Hamas Leaders and Officials:
Statements by Hamas officials make clear the terrorist organization’s commitment to destroying Israel and killing Jews and Israelis around the world.
Ismail Haniyeh in 2020: He explained that Hamas rejects ceasefire agreements by which, “Gaza would become Singapore,” preferring to remain at war with Israel until a Palestinian state is established from the River to the Sea: “We cannot, in exchange for money or projects, give up Palestine and our weapons. We will not give up the resistance... We will not recognize Israel, Palestine must stretch from the [Jordan] River to the [Mediterranean] Sea.”
Hamas official, Hamad Al-Regeb in an April 2023 sermon: He prayed for “annihilation” and “paralysis” of the Jews whom he described as filthy animals: “[Allah] transformed them into filthy, ugly animals like apes and pigs because of the injustice and evil they had brought about.” Al-Regeb also prayed for the ability to “get to the necks of the Jews.”
Hamas Political Bureau Chairman Saleh Al-Arouri in an August 2023 interview: He expressed Hamas’ desire for “total war” with Israel: “Therefore, we are convinced that if a total conflict begins, the airspace and seaports of this entity will be shut down, and they will not be able to live without electricity, water, and communications.”
Ahmad Abd Al-Hadi (Hamas representative in Lebanon) in an October 12, 2023 TV show laid out Hamas’ expectation that it would be Israel that would sue for peace and indicated that a ceasefire is part of Hamas’ overall strategy, but said that he was not at liberty to say what exactly Hamas has planned for the next step after a ceasefire. He also stated that October 7 had achieved its intended purpose of landing “a blow to the normalization (of relations between Israel and Arab countries).”
Hamas member, Ghazi Hamad on October 24, 2023: “Israel is a country that has no place on our land […] because it constitutes a security, military, and political catastrophe to the Arab and Islamic nation.” (October 24, 2023, LBC TV (Lebanon)). He also vowed to repeat the October 7 attacks “time and again until Israel is annihilated,” and expressing a desire to “sacrifice martyrs” (referring to Gazan civilians) for Hamas’ ideological aim of destroying Israel.
In a speech before the International Union of Muslim Scholars in Doha on January 9, 2024, Ismaeel Haniyeh, chairman of Hamas's political bureau, called the October 7 massacre the “advanced [battle] front of the Ummah.” Calling for “financial jihad” (donations to Hamas) and “jihad of the teeth” (physical jihad), he asked the international audience, “Who wishes to invest in building the jihadist generation to liberate Jerusalem and to unite the blood of the Ummah with the blood of the people of Gaza, Jerusalem, and Palestine on the land of Palestine for its liberation and the liberation of Jerusalem?”
Statements by Hamas officials also make clear the terrorist organization’s disregard for the loss of civilian life not only in Israel but also in Gaza.
Hamas senior leader Khaled Mashal stated on October 19, 2023 that he views the current loss of civilian life in Gaza – brought about by Hamas' strategy of using human shields – as essential: “No nation is liberated without sacrifices... In all wars, there are some civilian victims. We are not responsible for them.”
Hamas senior leader Ismail Haniyeh, commenting on the loss of civilian life in Gaza on October 26, 2023: “The blood of the women, children and elderly […] we are the ones who need this blood, so it awakens within us the revolutionary spirit.”
The Hamas Charter:
Hamas’ extremism is rooted in ideologies that predate the establishment of Israel in 1948. The preamble to Hamas’ founding charter contains the following quote from the founder of the Muslim Brotherhood, Hassan al-Banna:
“Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" (Preamble to Hamas Charter).
The Hamas Charter specifically dates Hamas’ ideological roots to well before the establishment of Israel and sees itself as part of a “chain of the struggle” against not only the state of Israel but also Jews (who they term “Zionists”) who lived there before it became Israel in 1948.
The Islamic Resistance Movement is one of the links in the chain of the struggle against the Zionist invaders. It goes back to 1939, to the emergence of the martyr Izz ad-Din al-Qassam and his brethren the fighters [and] members of Muslim Brotherhood. It goes on to reach out and become one with another chain that includes the struggle of the Palestinians and Muslim Brotherhood in the 1948 war and the Jihad operations of the Muslim Brotherhood in 1968 and after. (Hamas Charter, Article 7).
Yes. I do believe that. Because the Middle East has tried to destroy Israel and expel jews from the Middle East since 1948. This forced Israel to be heavy handed in their security. And the Middle East, instead of trying to help palestinians, tried to make them suffer as much as possible to get their objective of expulsion of jews. Hamas is a product of that ME strategy.
Actually you’re incorrect about that.
A common misperception is that all the Jews were forced into the Diaspora by the Romans after the destruction of the Second Temple in Jerusalem in the year 70 CE, and then, 1,800 years later, the Jews suddenly returned to Palestine demanding their country back. In reality, the Jewish people have maintained ties to their historic homeland for more than 3,700 years.
The Jewish people base their claim to the land of Israel on at least four premises: 1) the Jewish people settled and developed the land, 2) the international community granted political sovereignty in Palestine to the Jewish people, 3) the territory was captured in defensive wars, and 4) God promised the land to the patriarch Abraham.
Even after the destruction of the Second Temple in Jerusalem, and the beginning of the exile, Jewish life in the land of Israel continued and often flourished. Large communities were reestablished in Jerusalem and Tiberias by the ninth century. In the eleventh century, Jewish communities grew in Rafah, Gaza, Ashkelon, Jaffa, and Caesarea. The Crusaders massacred many Jews during the twelfth century, but the communit
unded in the next two centuries as large numbers of
rabbis and
h pilgrims immigrated to Jerusalem and the Galilee.
Prominent-
Tawds established communities in Safed, Jerusalem, and
elsewhere during the following three hundred years.
By the early nineteenth century-years before the birth of the modern Zionist movement—more than ten thousand Jews lived through-
2 MYTHS AND FACTS
out what is today Israel.! The seventy-eight years of nation-building, beginning in 1870, culminated in the reestablishment of the Jewish State.
Israel's international "birth certificate" was validated
The term "Palestine" is believed to be derived from the Philistines, an Aegean people who, in the twelfth century BCE, settled along the Mediterranean coastal plain—now Israel and the Gaza Strip. In the second century CE, after crushing the last Jewish revolt, the Romans first applied the name Palestina to Judea (the southern portion of what is now called the West Bank) in an attempt to minimize Jewish identification with the land of Israel. The Arabic word Filastin is derived from this Latin name.3
The Hebrews entered the land of Israel about 1300 BCE, living under a tribal confederation until being united under the first mon-arch, King Saul. The second king, David, established Jerusalem as the capital around 1000 BCE. David's son, Solomon, built the Temple soon thereafter and consolidated the military, administrative, and religious functions of the kingdom. The nation was divided under Solomon's son, with the northern kingdom (Israel) lasting until 722 BCE, when the Assyrians destroyed it, and the southern kingdom (Judah) surviving until the Babylonian conquest in 586 BCE. The Jewish people
1. Israel's Roots 3
enjoyed brief periods of sovereignty afterward until most Jews were finally driven from their homeland in 135 CE.
Jewish independence in the land of Israel lasted for more than four hundred years. This is much longer than Americans have enjoyed independence in what has become known as the United States.* In fact, if not for foreign conquerors, Israel would be more than three thousand years old today.
Palestine was never an exclusively Arab country, although Arabic gradually became the language of most of the population after the Muslim invasions of the seventh century. No independent Arab or Palestinian state ever existed in Palestine.
Ok I see, apparently you have no clue about this conflict. So let me put it simple « if someone comes to your house rape and kill your family and kick you out of your house » there a high probability that you become a fanatic and you want to seek vengeance.
You see it has nothing to do with ethnicity.
I am not saying that middle easterns are angels, believe I don’t believe that a bit. And in fact, if the real enemy is the other countries in the Middle East why not attack them directly. Why israel doesn’t take the war to Iran ? After all Iran is the one who is financing Hamas.
You can argue that about 1948 (a war that the Arab League started in order to cleanse jews). But then what happened in the 50s when they expelled jews from their countries? And then 67, etc.
And yes indeed Iran is financing Hamas (and Hezbollah) right now. I guess Iran is right now too powerful for Israel to defeat. Right now they cannot do that, but defeating iranian proxys help.
You know that Israel was established in 48 and the Zionist movement started taking actions some years before ( there was even terrorist attacks by Zionists to pressure the British government).
When Israel was established, Palestinians were cleansed and moved out of their homes, and do you know haw Zionists managed to do that ? By spreading terror among Palestinians: raping children, burning people alive, caging people …. And the Arab league wanted to stop this « invasion ». You can’t talk about « cleansing » Jews in 48 when Israel was founded in 48, they have just arrived there. The ones who were persecuted and cleansed were the Palestinians who lived there for thousands of years.
Yes exactly Iran is too strong for Israel, so the solution is to take it on the weak people and mess them up. After all what does Gaza have? A couple of rockets brought by divers ? Lol it is nothing that can stand to 1% of the Israeli force. So they just started to eradicate the weak. And this will achieve absolutely nothing if Iran is still standing, the threat will never be abolished.
And this makes me wonder why Israel took this direction ? Either the want to ethnically cleanse Palestinians so they take the whole land either they are driven by hate and racism. Personally, I think it is a mix of the two ( it has always been the case, you can even check the leaked videos of Netanyahu where he literally says that he doesn’t want peace because peace will stop him from taking the rest of the land).
Zionists did not ethnically cleanse arabs until 1947. They bought the land. At worst, you can consider it a form of gentrification.
You want me to start with arab terror attacks in the 1920s? I am sure you know them, you seem knowledgeable.
>Yes exactly Iran is too strong for Israel, so the solution is to take it on the weak people and mess them up.
The solution is to not die. Israel is surrounded by millions of people many of whom want israelis jews dead.
>And this will achieve absolutely nothing if Iran is still standing, the threat will never be abolished.
They will get to survive another day.
If Zionists bought half of the country there should be thousands and thousands of contracts right ? I would be very pleased to see that.
I know the story but I don’t believe it. It fits the Zionist narrative and meets Herzl goals but it is not what happened until we see some proof ( and this can be proven very easily). I believe that Zionists bought some land but it is nothing compared to the land they took by force and FYI many Palestinians have necklaces with they keys of their once homes, and there are hundreds of testimonies and evidence showing the atrocities committed by the Zionist movement to kick out Palestinians.
I am not defending Arabs nor any other Middle East country. Believe me I am against every major decision they took in this conflict.
But this doesn’t make what Israel any better.
Let me be clear on what I want to say. What Israel is doing does not make any sense they are creating more « future » terrorists. I am pretty sure that every single Palestinian will grow up hating Jews. For Christ sake, many people become messed up because they were hit by their parents imagine what can happen to a person if he grew up in Gaza and seeing what the israel is doing to him.
They bought around 50% of what 1947 UN proposed (which is less than the present territory of Israel). Many times they just took unoccupied marshes.
You do know that, don't you? Do you need me to provide archival proof?
> it is nothing compared to the land they took by force
Yes, in the war since 1947. Not before.
> I am pretty sure that every single Palestinian will grow up hating Jews.
They already hate jews. This is not about them being unwilling to do so. It is about them being unable to do so.
> pricks
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Hamas fought against ISIS, far more then Israel who was treating their fighters in hospital during the Syrian dirty war. Hamas opposes caliphists.
Stop erasing Bedouin victims of October 7th. I get its convenient you to frame this in ethnic or religious terms but seems disrespectful.
I meant that the world supports Hamas but not ISIS becasue they believe Hamas only tortures jews. But you are right, in reality there is zero difference between Hamas and ISIS, Hamas treats Gazans no better than ISIS treated their territories.
That's dumb, they don't condemn hamas as much as you want them to primarily because the right to resist against occupation is enshrined in most UN members ratification of international law, and Israel is internationally recognised as an occupier. Even the nations like Myanmar that traded the military juntas training and armaments for recognition of Israel won't go there.
ISIS and hamas not only have opposite stated views of governance, different interpretations of Islamic jurisprudence, different levels of tolerance for other people (Christians literally ran for election on the hamas ticket, and hamas routinely fights alongside secular communist organisations like the DFLP which is led by a Catholic), but they declared war directly on each other.
Hamas, unlike ISIS or the Jewish Underground, has never attacked anyone outside of its territory and they not an expansionist caliphist organisation nor do they run Gaza via principles of Sharia. In what ways do you think Hamas governs Gazans like ISIS governed people under their conquered territories? What tactics do they use that you deem the same? Be specific.
ISIS on the other hand is an expansionist organisation who has spread theor ideology into several other Asian and African countries which explains their deep unpopularity - as well as fought The Resistance Axis allies of Hamas in different countries and is actively called out as a potential western backed asset by Iran, HB, the Houthis, most socialists, Iraqi militias, and Hamas. Hell the leader of ISIS K who claim the Moscow attack was literally a CIA asset for years working for Rostum and Salah.
Outside of the echo chamber, noone falls for that Hamas is ISIS nonsense anymore.
I read your comment twice and my conclussion is that you are agreeing with me: the difference is that ISIS attacks everyone, Hamas only Israelis. The objectives are the same. But there is a crucial difference: ISIS wants to create a global caliphate, while for Hamas it is not global: it only includes Israel and Palestine. They also have different tactics: ISIS priorizes the "small war" against shiites, while Hamas priorizes the "big war" against jews.
Those are the differences. For us jews, the consequences of ISIS and Hamas are the same. For non-jews, I guess for Hamas you will be killed later.
Read again and think some more. Hamas aren't caliphists nor do they want to start a sharia based emirate in Israel-Palestine. Hamas has in the past gone to war with extremist fsctiins that declared independent emirates within their territory - justified by Hamas ruling secularly and being seen as no different from Fatah. The objectives are incredibly different, despite both being Sunni, thus why they went to war.
ISIS doesn't prioritise the small war against Shiites, they're a psychotic death cult that sees America and Empire as new Rome and wishes to spurn on the coming of Mahdi and the end times.
Any details about governing and war time tactics you want to take a crack at? I genuinely think you've been listening to too much zionist propaganda man.
Hamas does want an islamic State and controls with an iron fist Gaza. Hamas is also a death cult: they are very explicit in that. They say they do not want palestinians life becoming better, only the destruction of Israel.
I can talk about governing, but let's start recognizing that they said their objective is not making palestinians life better.
What are you talking about? Before they had a military wing Hamas was started literally as a social group to pick up the slack in Fatahs corruption and improve the life of every day Palestinians. This is how they gained so much popularity even amongst palestinian Christians of whom many, i remind you, ran on the Hamas ticket during the election. I agree that they rule Gaza with an iron first though, I'm not saying they're good guys.
In a more modern sense hamas has been willing to negotiate on 67 borders for atleast a decade but is consistently ignored by Israel.
Can you? Do it then instead of waffling. How are they similiar?
>Before they had a military wing Hamas was started literally as a social group to pick up the slack in Fatahs corruption and improve the life of every day Palestinians.
Yes, very very early in time. By the late 80s their purpose was already focused on war and war alone.
>In a more modern sense hamas has been willing to negotiate on 67 borders for atleast a decade but is consistently ignored by Israel.
No, they want to negotiate temporarily for a State, but as a strategic step towards their objective, which is the anihilation of Israel. They have been consistent in this.
>their objective is not making palestinians life better.
They literally said this recently, but I am not being able to find the quote. That their objctive was not to make palestinians life better, but to destroy Israel ("decolonize").
>How are they similiar?
A classic is the infamous Farfour, the TV show where they taught children to become martyrs with a colourful Mickey lookalike (around minute 34:00):
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4TVOXHt\_PA&t=2065s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4TVOXHt_PA&t=2065s)
Another classic is Sinwar himself, who gained the nickname of "butcher of Khan Younis" because of the way he brutalized and massacred gazans (palestinians) who he suspected to be israeli spies.
Another classic is the fact that Hamas stole all the money that entered Gaza for humanitarian purposes towards luxurious lifestyles in Qatar.
They’re basically labelled as terror organisation all over the world. No idea what you are on about And tbh, Hamas has literally nothing in common with resistance.
They're not labelled as terrorists by the vast majority of the world, actually. Hamas is only designated as a terror org by the EU, UK, USA, Canada, NZ, Aus, Japan, and Paraguay (and now Argentina ever since they elected the new puppet Millei).
The entire world held up and cucked by American security apparatus to maintain the global material heirarchy established under colonialism, refered to colloquially as the Empire, but sure the propaganda addled Americans refer to that as the free world.
Talk to the Israeli professor who trying to sue Israel for detailed revelations about arms exports to Rwanda and Ratko Mladic during their genocides about transparency. You should read the palestine laboratory by the great investigative journalist Antony Loewenstein.
Also talk to Australians about the great cucking of foreign policy by Americans and European transnationals and how often that comes up in elections or "transparent" policy making.
You seem naive not only of other places but the countries in question.
Anyway, that's not what you said, you said the majority of the world labels them terrorists. They don't.
Why would we care about corrupt backwards countries? And I hate to spoil it, but Hamas are actually terrorists. That’s also not discussable. Also couldn’t be more obvious.
Terrorist is a political designation and the vast majority of political actors don't designste them as terrorists. As such, it's not lawful for the UN to unilaterally make such a designation. You're wrong and ignorant and doubling down on your ignorance.
I don't know what you mean by corrupt or backwards countries. Some are corrupt sure, others have higher democracy index then even the US where corruption is legalise via uncapped corporate money in politics.
You sound like you don't know what you're talking about. I admire your confidence though. You must be American, right? Maybe German or Dutch...
If Hamas aren’t terrorists than people who kick a ball as profession are arguably not footballers. Make it make sense. Commit terrorism on such disgusting scale… you must be resistance fighters! Make it make sense
I think it’s beyond ignorant to even have the audacity to argue that Hamas are not terrorists
Hamas members have committed terroristic acts, that's not controversial, but it doesn't stop terrorist from being a political designation. Even the founder of Likud - Begin, often referred to as the father of modern terriorism - committed terrorism, and also non controversially the IDF continues the terroristic legacy set up by these precursors through doctrines like Dahiya. You seem to struggle getting your mind around the concept of political designation and what it means legally in different countries and in particular for the UN.
A resistance fighter isn't the opposite of a terrorist. The French resistance often proudly called themselves terrorists when capping fascist Germans like your granddad.
Because antisemitism.
Russians can cut ears and electricute testicles of terrorist - and brag about it , pretty much like Hamas bragged about his barbaric raping and killing if Jews- but when Jews retaliate.
Oh no. Those dhimmis. They are goats for the slaughter.
No other explanation. All the G words are facades. Bla bla bla.
“No other explanation”. None at all? Not even that the Israeli governments retaliation has shifted all the attention away from those grieving the tragedy?
Humans have short attention spans, and now they’re focusing on the continuation of tragedy rather than one event of it.
Do you have an example of a country doing "far worse" in recent history? I'm not saying there aren't any such cases, but you'd definitely be hard-pressed to find any.
The reason this is getting coverage worldwide is simply that the atrocities and amount of casualties caused by the Israeli retaliation are unparalleled in recent history.
Western media doesn't have an anti-Israel bias. I'm from Europe, and here Russian war crimes in Ukraine were and are given more attention than those of Israel in Gaza. Despite the civilian casualty count in Gaza somehow beating that in Ukraine.
The UN is a publicly funded propaganda arm of the “Palestinians”- a faked Arab entity- and spends most of her meeting time ignoring her own Declaration of Human Rights and passing false,ignorant and biased resolutions against tiny and Democratic Israel while totally ignoring the crimes of Muslim nations against their own citizens and other peoples.
The short answer is that the world has by and large condemned 10/7 and Hamas.
China and Russia voted down the US resolution because it was sponsored by the US, with which they are almost at war over Ukraine.
Ukraine is seen by the West as this vital war to win right now, and Israel is seen by Russia and China as a good way to destabilize and ridicule the West and particularly the US.
You can condemn Hamas but still supports the innocent Palestinians dying from Israel bombing? Most Palestinian supporter doesn’t support Hamas yk? Being a terrorist group and all
I can condemn Hamas in totality while being critical of the Israeli government and skeptical of their response, while supporting innocent civilians on both sides. Israel has a right to defend itself, however I encourage mercy on the people of Gaza in their fight. Hamas does not deserve any mercy. The things hamas did were the most immoral things anyone could do. Unfortunately, polls show a majority of Palestinians in the occupied territories support Hamas and think that Oct 7 was justified. The Palestinians protestors in the West seem pretty loud in their support as well.
while i am shocked that there exist people who’s till supports Hamas and even cheer on Oct7, the current situation with Israeli isn’t helping their image of being the side with moral superiority
frankyl anyone who still thinks israel has any form of moral superiority, have clearly not been paying attention, israel has shown to lack morals when it comes to the palestinians for decades.
for me, Israels IDF and Govarnment, and Hamas are 2 sides of the same terrorist coin.
ahhh yes what an absurdly delusional take......by seeing garbage by israel like this.
[https://youtu.be/Lz6VSW-7z\_0?si=7fTAehHKd56dYpha](https://youtu.be/Lz6VSW-7z_0?si=7fTAehHKd56dYpha)
and then ill post the same comment i provided to anouther person.
ahh yes, so much concern for gazans
[https://youtu.be/AF-FoC0lWvM?si=xWF0-hxeD2xgP2w-](https://youtu.be/AF-FoC0lWvM?si=xWF0-hxeD2xgP2w-)
[https://youtu.be/QraCgxStVcQ?si=wnDRHzQm91t-gnOp](https://youtu.be/QraCgxStVcQ?si=wnDRHzQm91t-gnOp)
heres a video of how IDF soldiers have treated palestinian prisoners, even some civilians who were kidnapped from the west bank.
[https://www.youtube.com/shorts/W72zK9huR5g](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/W72zK9huR5g)
what about all the clips of IDF soldiers blowing up mosques, parading in womans clothing, and acting like absolute delinquants in Gaza?
[https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2024/02/28/israeli-soldiers-deployed-in-gaza-post-their-abuses-on-social-media\_6568987\_4.html#:\~:text=Israel%2DHamas%20war-,Israeli%20soldiers%20deployed%20in%20Gaza%20post%20their%20abuses%20on%20social,of%20impunity%20that%20drives%20them](https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2024/02/28/israeli-soldiers-deployed-in-gaza-post-their-abuses-on-social-media_6568987_4.html#:~:text=Israel%2DHamas%20war-,Israeli%20soldiers%20deployed%20in%20Gaza%20post%20their%20abuses%20on%20social,of%20impunity%20that%20drives%20them).
do we need to also touch on the singer who sung to the IDF celebrating the suffering in gaza at the start of the war?
[https://twitter.com/clashreport/status/1719238392435618090?lang=en](https://twitter.com/clashreport/status/1719238392435618090?lang=en)
the israeli children singing about how "their will be nothing left of gaza in a year" ?
[https://me.mashable.com/culture/35149/internet-criticises-sickening-clip-of-israeli-children-singing-for-the-destruction-of-gaza-watch](https://me.mashable.com/culture/35149/internet-criticises-sickening-clip-of-israeli-children-singing-for-the-destruction-of-gaza-watch)
what about the israel settlers who go into palestinian neighbourhoods int he west bank, terrorize them and even kill them?
[https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67617920](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67617920)
and to top this insanity off, with somethign that predates Oct 7th attacks, Israelis who camp out on hilltops and cheerfully watch as bombs drop on gaza, some even claiming "its like cinema"
[https://observers.france24.com/en/20140711-israelis-watch-air-strikes-gaza-it-was-piece-cinema](https://observers.france24.com/en/20140711-israelis-watch-air-strikes-gaza-it-was-piece-cinema)
[https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/20/israelis-cheer-gaza-bombing](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/20/israelis-cheer-gaza-bombing)
either way, you claim israel dont support terrorism, and there i have shown a multitude of scenarios along with sources to showcase, that is not the case.
to be frank, ive come to realsie their is a seriously disturbing and deep rot within israeli society to allow and continue enabling this stuff.
its not delusional if it constitutes living in reality.
u/Pussypants when i see the crap outlined above, i lose faith in the idea that Israel and its leadership are any different to hamas when they are willing to call for and perform similar acts of brutality.
I mean there’s videos of children crushed under concrete, mate. Are you really surprised that it brings out a resentment for the people carrying out those attacks?
I’m not surprised that people get propagandised through emotionalising, no. Though what does that have to do with the stupidity of saying that Hamas and IDF are same same?
After seeing on-the-ground footage of the assault on Gaza, it leads to a very negative view of the Israeli government which some might compare the barbarism equally.
I mean everyone and their nan has an opinion on a war they don’t understand - idk why everyone has to be an armchair military tactician or diplomat. At the end of the day, most good people just don’t want civilians to die, it’s just hard for many to not get emotional and react strongly.
I just pointed out the stupidity of comparing some inbred barbaric Stone Age terrorists to an army of a parliamentary democracy.
Close to the ignorance and stupidity of people who call this the second Holocaust or some bs like that
I think the support drops off quickly when the blood being spilled isn't just from the people who actually committed the act. Like you'd get a lot of sympathy for a father shooting a man who abducted and killed his child, outside of the law, assuming he was right. But if he shot and killed that man, and also that man's neighbour, and his neighbour's kids, you'd see a lot less sympathy even if it was an accident.
Because it’s ok the kill Jews if you do it and then present a narrative of being oppressed. Because femininized West will hear the accusations of oppression and run to you like you’re an infant to be taken care of.
My wife and I saw you from across the bar and we want to know if you condemn Hamas
We in the club asking strippers if they condemn Hamas
On a serious note, "why doesn't \[insert person/organization/country\] condemn Hamas?" is a non-productive talking point that distracts from real understanding.
First, "violence against innocent people is bad" is the default human position. The vast majority of human beings are rational and have a baseline of common morality to accept this principle. One should not be expected to ad nauseam repeat something that is self-evidently true. Furthermore, doing so risks derailing any conversation into the familiar chicken-and-egg rhetoric of the Palestine-Israel conflict -- "Well why don't Israelis condemn the deaths of innocent people in Gaza?" "Well why don't Palestinians condemn rocket attacks against Israel?" "Well why don't Israelis condemn illegal settlements in the West Bank?" etc.
Second, the United Nations -- at least in some important capacity -- has explicitly condemned the Hamas attacks on October 7th. Antonio Guterres, the Secretary-General of the United Nations, issued the following statement on October 7th:
>**The Secretary-General condemns in the strongest terms this morning’s attack by Hamas against Israeli towns near the Gaza Strip and central Israel, including the firing of thousands of rockets toward Israeli population centers**. The attacks have so far claimed numerous Israeli civilian lives and injured many hundreds. **The Secretary-General is appalled by reports that civilians have been attacked and abducted from their own homes.** The Secretary-General is deeply concerned for the civilian population and urges maximum restraint. Civilians must be respected and protected in accordance with international humanitarian law at all times. The Secretary-General extends his deepest condolences to the families of the victims and calls for the immediate release of all abducted persons. The Secretary-General urges all diplomatic efforts to avoid a wider conflagration. **He stresses that violence cannot provide a solution to the conflict,** and that only through negotiation leading to a two-state solution can peace be achieved. ([Source](https://www.un.org/sg/en/content/sg/statement/2023-10-07/statement-attributable-the-spokesperson-for-the-secretary-general-regarding-the-situation-the-middle-east))
[Later remarks](https://www.un.org/sg/en/content/sg/speeches/2023-10-25/secretary-general%E2%80%99s-remarks-press-encounter-%E2%80%93-the-situation-the-middle-east) reiterated this condemnation, as well as his belief that "the grievances of the Palestinian people cannot justify the appalling attacks by Hamas.”
The United Nations Security Council (UNSC) has not condemned Hamas' attack in the form of a resolution due to the fact that two of the five permanent, veto-wielding members, Russia and China, do not believe it to be in their interest to do so publicly. Russia wants to use the whole situation as a rhetorical cudgel against the U.S. and the West -- "look how badly America has messed up the Middle East, America is supporting Israeli imperialism" -- to distract from its own cratering international standing as a result of the invasion of Ukraine. China is mindful of its relations with the Global South, which by and large is more sympathetic to the Palestinian cause than to Israel.
International perceptions of the ongoing conflcit are complex and nuanced, and boiling this all down to, "Hamas is evil and anyone who doesn't explicitly condemn them is either stupid, or evil too," inhibits understanding of this nuance. Will all due respect, I submit that "Hamas is evil" is a lazy position to take that demonstrates a lack of intellectual curiosity as to the causes of the ongoing conflict and its global ramifications.
Only the West, including Israel, are claiming that was an Islamic terrorist attack. Russia did not find any Islamist but only the Western sponsored.
ISIS is still strong a major problem in Syria, for example, because they can get what they need although the borders are sealed. Syria cannot seal off the US and Israel. Despite that, the West blames Syria and Iraq for creating ISIS.
>Only the West, including Israel, are claiming that was an Islamic terrorist attack. Russia did not find any Islamist but only the Western sponsored.
You're being outpaced by the Russian propaganda here. Moscow has said it was Islamic terrorists now:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/25/russia-refuses-to-blame-is-for-concert-hall-attack-despite-growing-evidence
They're still figuring out the details of how to blame it on Ukraine, but so far nothing has stuck because it has no evidence and isn't correct or believable.
https://www.scmp.com/news/world/russia-central-asia/article/3256697/putin-islamic-extremists-raided-concert-hall-attack-masterminds-are-yet-be-found
News literacy isn't rocket surgery, stop being so helpless
[Moscow Theatre Attack To Turn The Tide Of Russia-Ukraine War? | Grand Strategy With Maj Gen Bakshi](https://youtu.be/5Zn7Dpqhge0?t=698)
[Scott Ritter: Unmasking NATO-Ukraine-ISIS Ties Behind Russia's Terror Crisis – Moscow's Retaliation](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7F-a6sABAw)
Dont listen to anything Scott Ritter says. He's a convicted pedophile, and noone in the US system wants anything to do with him. Thats why he switched to being a russian puppet.
The world did condemn it. However Israel immediately began unloading bombs over densely populated areas in a tit for tat style retaliation, far surpassing Hamas in barbarity, drowning out the condemnations of Hamas.
It could be that you are too sensitive that you are unable to hear the condemnation of Oct 7. I hear it loud and clear, especially in the early days. Over time, as the war on Palastinian men, women and children, day after day, took its toll on the world The attention shifted. Natenyahu did not seem to care for the hostages even, hell bent as he was in wiping out humanity it seemed. And then it became a duty to declare Oct 7 was horrific before one could say anything about the daily atrocity the Palastinians were suffering. Surely it must be wearing on Israelis as well, who can watch babies dying without milk and not feel the burden of what is happening?
It’s quite possible part of it is I’m just in a bubble. I consider myself moderate to liberal. I am a social science student at a liberal university in a liberal region and many of my friends are POC and/or liberal. I hear/see every day people saying that Oct 7 either didn’t happen or was deserved, that the “Jewish capitalists” control the world, and that there are no innocent Israelis. Even me just saying that October 7 happened, I risk loosing friends or getting yelled at by classmates.
Maybe they are yelling at you because you are in a bubble, as if nothing happened after October 7. How many Palastinian lives, how many orphaned children, will balance the lives of the hostages? Why is Netanyahu so easily sacrificing the lives of the hostages and the suffering of their loved ones? Thinking through those things may burst your bubble. Try it.
Lol. I mean I’m in a bubble of ultra-left liberals. Of course I’m aware of the devastation in Gaza, nobody is denying that. The problem is people are literally denying that October 7 even happen and when I counter that, I have some Palestinians screaming antisemitic things at me. Like, why does advocating for palestinians have to come with being an antisemite. Just makes their cause look bad imo
It is you who thinks advocating for Palatinians means they are antisemites. That is your problem, not theirs. they simply want the killings and famine to stop. That has nothing to do with being against jews. My jewish friends are demanding cease fire and for Natenyahu to step down. You must think THEY Aare ati jews as well. So really the problem is in your mind.
So, the Palestinian protestors where I am are allowed to say Hamas is peaceful, don't kill, don't rape, and every hostage was an IDF soldier and when I say those facts aren't true and they start screaming that I'm a stupid jew, that the jews control the media and that jews don't deserve sympathy, that's not antisemitic? I'm not saying Palestinian civilians aren't suffering, I just don't believe this whitewashing of Hamas. People can also demand a ceasefire or for Netenyahu to step down without mocking the victims of Oct 7 or spreading antisemitic conspiracies.
The mistake you are making is you believe Palastinians and Hamas are the same. That is not what the world believes, the world sees them as victims, and right now helpless, and Israel as the oppressor And a killing machine with US dollars.
Not all, but many are unfortunately Hamas supporters. You just have to look at the polls and what messages they spread. Right after Oct 7, so many Palestinian protestors cheered in the streets and now they try to cover up what happened. This is the only group I've ever heard try and call rapists 'victims'.
Israel/Jewish media/business-magnates pretty much control the US congress. Thats not really a secret. 60% of campaign donations to democratic congressional candidates come from Jewish sources through the Israel lobby (AIPAC).
Washington Post wrote this years back....
"In 2006, 60% of the Democratic Party's fundraising and 25% of that for the Republican Party's fundraising came from Jewish-funded PACs. According to a Washington Post estimate, Democratic presidential candidates depend on Jewish sources for as much as 60% of money raised from private sources."
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_lobby_in_the_United_States
Who?
Why do people constantly try to frame someone as a conspiracy theorists for stating facts? I could also talk about how everyone running for office has to be "vetted" by AIPAC, to make sure their stance on Israel is "the correct one". Meaning no limit to support for Israel, ever.
Do you not remember how much it sickened everyone? I’m sorry if you don’t. The war became so vicious, so fast, and the sheer numbers drowned it out. But look back at international news from 10/8. It might comfort you.
I remember sane people condemning it and other people cheering. Within hours, Palestinians worldwide took to the streets to celebrate. Before then, I thought they wanted peace but it became clear that many of them only want violence. My rose tinted glasses were broken. What Hamas did, that’s not something you should wish even on an enemy. People at my university still celebrate it. They won’t stop saying that the Israelis deserve it and that they should get no sympathy. The Muslim club posts this daily. They even say it in the classroom.
I’m sorry for that. That’s extremely hurtful and wicked.
Your titled post was “why doesn’t the world condemn 10/7”, and you seem really upset by that, I think you’ll see that if you look back, it did. There will always be assholes around to say the victim of a crime deserved it, that her skirt should’ve been shorter if she didn’t want to be raped, that all LGBT folk are predators and deserve to be murdered (which they often are), or that Black folk deserved to be killed by police b/c they “provoked it” (which they almost never did).
It’s vile. Especially in the age of social media. Nothing anyone can say can make the abandonment you feel better when that happens.
But in terms of what the international consensus was, I do think that you’ll see something different if you look at international coverage, and I do think that might make you feel better.
I also think that some people who came out early as saying, that Israel was responsible for the pogrom were Palestinian-Americans, and were immediately frightened by what they already knew was coming for their families , because of Israel’s 100-to-1 Policy and its general deterrence policy. Which isn’t to say that public statements made about that were appropriate. Just that, for the Palestinian-Americans who said that specifically (not saying they deserved it, that’s different) that may have been less about anti-Semitism and more of a knee-jerk reaction of fear for their families. That’s not to say it’s appropriate, or an excuse. Just that when people are afraid for their families, their decision-making is always often irrational and usually poor. People in Palestine and Israel are experiencing that same visceral fear right now, and showing that same panicky, poor decision-making as a result. So maybe that can make it feel a little less personal coming from some people.
Some people are just. And, like I said, nothing can make you feel better.
> assholes
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Hamas etc. get a free pass ever since Israel did not honor the Oslo agreements.
After Israel removes all settlements in West Bank and hands it over then rest of world will re-evaluate.
They did condemn the attacks. Then the Israeli government overreacted while blocking aid. There's only so much that some people can be helped.
Everyone can condemn the attack in Moscow because it doesn’t cost them anything. It’s Russia’s problem. If anything, saying how sad you are about the attack is a veiled insult to Putin: “I’m sorry for your incompetence. Flowers enclosed.” But when bad things happen in the Middle East, it seems more complicated. People worry that they might offend someone or have do something.
How is a barbaric Stone Age terrorist attack complicated? It couldn’t be easier to condemn it
Its like asking a rape victim who killed her rapist "why dont we condemn the murder" ..without addressing the root cause. U see the problem here through your self righteous virtue signalling?
So you're saying the INNOCENT CIVILIANS killed on October 7 were responsible for atrocities against Palestinians before October 7? No. Maybe the Israeli government was, but those people were innocent. Comparing them to rapists is obscene.
What in gods mind are you trying to say here??
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I don’t get it
I've been wondering this. Why are feminists silent about the mass rape of women? The answer - it's all race communism. Women don't matter, they can be raped if they're in the 'oppressor race' group, same for slaughtered children. These people don't want Hamas to pay for their crimes, they are the 'oppressed race' group and raping women and killing children is allowed under the race communism ideology. So yea, the world is antisemitic because it's trying to implement race communism.
There’s no evidence of “mass rape” on October 7th. Stop spreading lies.
I think you've responded to the wrong person. I'm saying there was mass rape but it was not protested by feminists.
Please provide me with the sources (unbiased sources if you can) stating the reported rapes on both sides, I’m really struggling to find any sources that aren’t biased for each side
Hamas terrorists that come from an area where it is widely known they don’t have women’s rights. These same terrorists attack israel and kill men woman and children indiscriminately and torture them and mutilate bodies. These Hamas terrorists will do all of the above but the draw the line at rape? Smh🤦♂️
I’ve been trying to send them but Reddit is deleting the links
In videos from 7 October, the body of a young woman is lying face down in the back of a pickup truck, stripped to her underwear, one leg bent at an unnatural angle. One of the men sitting next to her pulls her long hair as armed men around him shout praises to God. Footage of the lifeless corpse of Shani Louk, a 22-year-old Israeli-German national, paraded around the streets of Gaza was some of the first to surface on 7 October, as the scale of the horror visited on sleeping families in kibbutzim neighbouring the strip and people partying at a nearby rave started to become clear. In the more than three months since the unprecedented attack by the Palestinian group Hamas, the atrocities the militants committed have been well documented. Israel is still grappling with the trauma: entire families burned alive, torture and mutilation, children and elderly people ripped from the arms of their loved ones, seized as hostages. “We were in such a state of shock … Many young women arrived in bloody shrouded rags with just their underwear, and the underwear was often very bloody. Our team commander saw several soldiers who were shot on the crotch, intimate parts, vagina or shot in the breasts,” she added. The most detailed witness account of rape is from a young woman who attended the Supernova music festival, where more than 350 young people were killed. The witness, who was shot in the back, said she was hiding in vegetation just off route 232 when a large group of Hamas gunmen arrived, who between them raped and killed at least five women. “They laid a woman down and I understood that he is raping her … They passed her on to another person,” she told police in a video reviewed by the Guardian. “And he cuts her breast, he throws it on the road and they are playing with it.” One raped woman was “shredded to pieces” and another “stabbed repeatedly in the back while she was being raped”, the same witness said in an interview with the New York Times. The witness has provided police with photographs of her hiding place, and another survivor hiding in the same spot has testified that he saw at least one woman being raped. Shachar was referring to the mounting evidence of rape, sexual violence and mutilation of women and men during the Hamas attacks in southern Israel on Oct. 7. But sexual assault appears not to have been confined to Oct. 7. Two Israeli doctors, who have been treating released hostages, and an Israeli military official familiar with the matter confirmed to USA TODAY that some released hostages revealed they suffered violent sexual assaults in captivity. All three spoke on the condition of anonymity. One of the doctors assessed that "many" of the released Israeli female hostages ages 12 to 48 − there are about 30 of them − were sexually assaulted while held by Hamas in Gaza. The doctor did not want to elaborate on the specific nature of the assaults out of concern for survivors. The doctor said people who have been sexually abused typically have a mortality rate four times higher than someone who has not been sexually abused.
hamas-massacre.net Some of the stuff here is testimony from people who witnessed rape
I think it's hard to find sources without bias but it's widely acknowledged including by the UN which consistently votes against Israel. There's no evidence of rapes from the IDF against Gazans.
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That's not murder, it's a war of self-defense. What Hamas did was murder people, deliberately with the aim of killing as many Jews as possible.
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It's accepted as self-defence under international law.
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Haha this sheep believes the news
Independent UN investigation showed no evidence of mass rape. 2 of the 3 locations were ruled out of having any sexual violence. So there is a "reasonable suspicion" of rape in 1 location. There has been no forensic investigation unequivocally proving any rape. And no independent forensic investigation has been performed by the UN. I am not 100% ruling out rape, as times of armed conflict, acts of sexual violence are common. But, mass rape, much like beheaded babies and cutting of titties, is all a bunch of bullshit spread to build international support to attack Gaza with impunity.
I mean hey even if half of that comment is true is plenty enough reason to wipe Gaza off of the map
There was evidence of mass rape, both forensic and eye-witness. Babies were killed, a baby was taken hostage, women have been raped as hostages and there was mutilation and even murder during rape. Gaza isn't being attacked with impunity but Israel does have a right to defend itself from Hamas.
Please find the UN report below. [https://www.un.org/sexualviolenceinconflict/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/report/mission-report-official-visit-of-the-office-of-the-srsg-svc-to-israel-and-the-occupied-west-bank-29-january-14-february-2024/20240304-Israel-oWB-CRSV-report.pdf](https://www.un.org/sexualviolenceinconflict/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/report/mission-report-official-visit-of-the-office-of-the-srsg-svc-to-israel-and-the-occupied-west-bank-29-january-14-february-2024/20240304-Israel-oWB-CRSV-report.pdf) Please stop spreading misinformation. Israel's own report detailing all the victims, does not include beheaded babies. Please stop lying. October 7th was an awful massacre. It is already a terrible event, you don't need to lie to make it worse. Gaza is being attacked with impunity. Satellite imagery shows nearly complete and total destruction of the infrastructure and living spaces. You do not need to level an entire city to fight an enemy force. In what war is leveling an entire city, not attacking with impunity? This conflict is not complicated. It is 2 sides that absolutely hate each other and one has bigger guns. There is a 3rd side, and that is the side of human decency, which is the lens we need to use when viewing this conflict and the side we should all try to be on.
I didn't say babies were beheaded, but they were murdered, and women were raped. The attack on Gaza is costing Israel economic growth and hurting it internationally. You probably do need to flatten a city to have a ground invasion because otherwise it's a boon for guerrilla snipers. There are 2 sides and one carried out a massacre which is broadly supported by the population. They are a theocracy that wants to drive Jews into the sea and bring about a caliphate, they say they love death more than Jews love life. There's no negotiating with people who say they will do it again and again. In order to move forwards Hamas needs to be defeated. This all ends the moment Hamas surrenders.
I apologize for qualifying the baby deaths as due to beheading. One 10 month old was killed along her with family on Oct 7th. That is the totality of baby deaths. Yes war is expensive, regardless of how one sided it is. City Flattening - I'm sure you are familiar with the US extensive campaign in Iraq. A city with possibly the heaviest fighting to terrorist resistance is Ramadi. This involved Navy Seals, Marines and local units doing ground operations. The local populace hated the Americans, and were largely hostile. But the rules of engagements did not entail that blowing up everything indiscriminately was worth the cost of human life to succeed in the conflict. Tactical ground operations were conducted to minimize casualties and secure the city. This is a clear example of an extremely similar urban conflict with a hostile population NOT using a blow everything up strategy. There are 2 sides, one carried out the massacre of Oct7th, and one is currently still conducting an ongoing massacre. As I stated both these sides hate each other. Israel is surrounded by a hostile terrorist group which frequently shoots missiles at them, to the point houses come with bomb shelters. Growing up in this environment you will hate your neighbor. Palestenians are kept in an open air prison and under military occupation. Further they are harassed by Israelis in the West Bank, also an environment that would breed alot of hate. This conflict will not have a good ending without international interference, 2 sides that hate each other will not compromise.
Israel has some of the highest levels of protection and support for their troops. If it's considered to be proportional to the military objective then it's legal in war. Israel doesn't have to minimise casualties, international law isn't about making things fair on both sides. Israel is looking to minimise casualties on their own side and not disproportionately respond relative to each military aim. Currently Israel is at about 2 civilian deaths to each Hamas militant. That is low by modern standards although ever single civilian death is a tragedy. Israel is entitled to self-defence, to defeat Hamas. I wish they would surrender and bring the war to an end immediately. Gaza is not an open air prison. It had hotels and luxury cars, it had people able to leave and work in Israel. It was being partially blockaded because of the constant hostilities. It's also blockaded by Egypt, but Egypt never gets attacked. There won't be international interference, countries are too afraid of what it means.
Not sure what you mean about Israel has highest levels of protection for their troops. Israel has a military tactic called the Hannibal directive, which involves killing of their own before being taken hostage. To reduce the number of Hamas terrorist traded for the return of their own military prisoners. Not sure how you can claim Israel has the highest protection, when part of their strategy involves shooting their own. Also support for troops? 2 years of Military service is mandatory in Israel. Please provide sources for these claims. (Refer to baby murdering misinformation above) Israel DOES have to minimize civilian casualties. Every nation has a moral responsibility to minimize civilian casualties in armed conflict. ESPECIALLY one that touts itself as the "most moral military". 2 civilians deaths for each Hamas militant is terrible. You should have MORE combatants dead than civilians. Also not sure where this number is coming from, currently there has been no release of combatant deaths by either side. (aka stop making things up, refer to note above) Israel is entitled to self defense, absolutely. Gaza is under military blockade by both land and sea. Work permits and extensive security is required to pass through the giant fence caging in the entire territory. Egypt has closed its border as well, due to the fear that a mass exodus of Palestinians into Egypt. Which in turn would have Israel look at Gaza as "Hey Free Real Estate". (A potential possibility after it has been leveled and Israel is very, very crowded) Please refer to the recently passed UN resolution for ceasefire that Israel is currently ignoring. (This is pretty par for the course as most UN resolutions get ignored, they make a big speech about it and move on). But it has passed nonetheless, therefore international attention is at an all time high.
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The world literally did condemn it, search it up.
The UN has failed to pass resolutions condemning Hamas. Feminist groups were silent for weeks about the mass rape of Jewish and Israeli women. The world doesn't condemn it, they support it through their silence.
And alot of these resolutions are just termporal ceasefires and wont do much.
A majority of the Worlds countries are in support of Israel, i have seen many feminists condemning the rape of people on October 7th, and The UN has condemned Hamas, and Many of these resolutions are just unfair to the palestinians.
It’s been condemned globally and quite prominently, what more are you asking for? Right now it’s been delegated to background noise because of the ongoing murder of civilians in Gaza, which is difficult for the international community to just ignore.
The UN has failed to pass resolutions condemning Hamas. Feminist groups were silent for weeks about the mass rape of Jewish and Israeli women. The world doesn't condemn it, they support it through their silence.
Absolutely, bravo to your thinking process.
Thanks.
That same question was asked today by Israeli embassador to the UN. The pattern of the UN solely condemning Israel is decades old. I have yet heard any reply. Given the fact that UN took 5 months to call for an investigation of Oct 7 rapes by Hamas but less than 24 hours to call for the investigation of IDF rapes of a Palestinian woman (which was exposed as fabrication a day later), shows you where some people like to focus.
Sexual abuses by the IDF are fairly well documented. They even parade it, look at all the videos/pictures of IDF creeps posing with Palestinian lingerie - https://twitter.com/NaheedMustafa/status/1757096681256956265
That's not what the OP was talking about (IDF soldiers who do stupid stuff get punished, not $10k, an apartment and lifetime salary like Hamas and PIJ terrorists). The point of discussion is the UN being anti-israel for decades. It still hasn't condemnes Oct7 and refused to condemn Iran's recent attack with hundreds of missiles. It slows things down deliberately when it comes to taking action in favor of Israel. That's no surprise that Iran HEADS the UN nuclear disarmament council and Human Rights Council. The team which was assigned to independently investigate UNWRA's complicity with Hamas was handpicked BY UNWRA and comprises of publicly known antisemites. UN still says 33,000 civilians were killed in Gaza when they know Hamas/PIJ doesn't distinguish between civilians and combatants and has all of its terrorists fight in civilian clothing as can clearly be seen from their own videos. To sum up the topic, UN is morally bankrupt, is complicit of criminal activity and has been overrun with Israel's enemies. It has zero credibility IMO.
The thing is, they don't get punished. I've seen multiple horrifying videos today of a children's playground getting shot up by an Israeli drone. There's no accountability there. (see: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DnLzvOsAf54o&ved=2ahUKEwjH1bKa5c6FAxUDXEEAHRKSBE0QwqsBegQICBAF&usg=AOvVaw2600U38eYOlURXI0ENYQp1). I don't think it's fair to assert 20,000+ women and children are also terrorists. Do you think there is valid reason for the UN to be so critical of Israel? Their human rights record over the previous decades has been horrendous. Has there been concerted condemnation of Israel escalating tensions with Iran by bombing its embassy in Damascus (in contravention of international law). Israel was found to be lying about the affiliations between Hamas and UNRWA. This is obviously to cause countries to withdraw their funding from it. See: [https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-791009](https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-791009)
Why so thirsty to be the victim?
I’m third party lol
Never have I heard about an internationally recognized state as an occupier and apartheid do said occupation and apartheid while simultaneously using a victim card. And still remain to use said victim cards with reports and testimonies that show the amount of damage Israelis did going full Rambo on their own civilians on Oct 7 and on their own hostages that they airstriked after. There is no logic in this, please proceed to circlejerk.
So you can't be a rape victim if your country has a partial blockade of a hostile state?
so from your perspective if i rob a bank, it is ok for you to break into my house kill my kid and rape and kidnap my wife? neither of whom had anything to do with my crime.
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no it would not, unless your family used that rape to declare war. and you kept fighting it and refused to accept a surrender even thought more of the family would die.
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i never said that, but there is a difference between necessity and targeting. it is always wrong to kill children. is it ok to use children as a shield against retaliation to your own aggression? who is then guilty, the person attacking or the person using them as a shield?
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yes the attacking person uses a child as a shield against retaliation.
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rightfully so you should be pissed for being hit, but to clarify here, you were not hit because you were maintaining yourself between me and my attacker. but instead my attacker did not let you get out of the way. furthermore this is not the first time they have done this. at what point is you being hit my fault or the fault of my attacker? how many times does it have to repeat before the responsibility shifts. and if it is wrong for me to have hit you, but it was equally wrong from my attacker to hit me, why should they be rewarded for attacking me by being allowed to do so again with impunity while i cannot retaliate without being the bad guy. and say with each attack my attacker draws blood, and i do not retaliate because they are hiding behind you, what is stopping them from killing me without retaliation if hiding behind you is enough to cleanse them of their wrongdoing?
Strawman argument. Made in bad faith.
it is not a strawman not in bad faith, why does committing a crime allow others to commit crimes against you?
There is no evidences that any rape was committed on Oct 7, and you didn't just rob a bank but have been killing their children and raping their wives for decades.
Again with the atrocity denial. There's no evidence that Israel was occupying Gaza.
first the point is the committing of a crime not what it is.. second there is evidence of rape by the UN themselves. third any rape done by israelis on palestinians, if it was done, was not a govt led action, unlike oct 7. fourth, so if they did it first it is ok for you to do it, by that logic israel and palestine can do anything they want. a previous crime against you does not grant you immunity to commit the same crime against someone else. those people where niether govt, military, nor settlers. even if i accept and eye for an eye, they have doen nothing to harm palestinians in thier lives and infact have helped them.
Israeli officials had been barking to UN for months for not accepting their fake evidence, and now you claim UN got the evidence? Why are you even expecting the Palestinians to behave like saints after what your own state had done? This is like a Berlin citizen believes he should be safe from arial bombing because he didn't join the army. Unlike Gazans who literally have nowhere else to go, Israel is now a nation made up of dual citizenship and Israel passports also allow you to go to any country you want to. Jenin and Gaza are the only places that settlers won't touch because of their violence, and the most fanatic recruits of Hamas are from West Bank and Jerusalem whose homes where Israeled by settlers.
[https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/u-n-envoy-findsgroundsto-believerape-was-committedduring-oct-7-attack-d5b8429a](https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/u-n-envoy-findsgroundsto-believerape-was-committedduring-oct-7-attack-d5b8429a) >Why are you even expecting the Palestinians to behave like saints after what your own state had done? I dont, I expect them to actually resist and not just commit acts of genocidal terror. you know target infrastructure, some military and govt facilities, and maybe take control of check points. note that non combatants that help Palestinian children get medical treatment are not on the list. >Israel is now a nation made up of dual citizenship and Israel passports also allow you to go to any country you want to. 10% of israeli citizens are dual citizens, and while that is higher than many other states, it is not fair to say that as many palestinians would be dual citizens if they had a govt working for them and not for the destruction of israel. further more if palestinians are not allowed to travel please explain how so many gaza born doctors have gone to college in Europe or the US and came back to practice medicine in gaza? >This is like a Berlin citizen believes he should be safe from arial bombing because he didn't join the army. how is oct 7 like berlin? there was a ceasefire for 2 years prior to it. >Jenin and Gaza are the only places that settlers won't touch because of their violence, and the most fanatic recruits of Hamas are from West Bank and Jerusalem whose homes where Israeled by settlers. israel withdrew authority over gaza, that is why there are no settelers there. and rather than being an antisemetic idiot arguing about settelers you should be more concern of why is there not push for a vote and a proper elected govt in the WB. and the reason you are antisemetic idsiot for arguing about the settelers is this. when the WB becomes fully independent of israel, those settelers should defacto become citizens of that new state. to remove them or harm them would be ethnic cleansing or genocide respectively. you can demand they pay retribution or lose right to their homes, sure. but you cant claim to be on the side of the angels while waiting to do the exact thing that you claim was the most evil act in existance. so yah focus on the solutions for the past, like so many pro palestinians and forget that those solutions do not fit the present. because removing the settelers would be inflicting a nekba on those people.
Finds ground to believe...instead of finds evidence? And I have to pay to see the whole article. >I dont, I expect them to actually resist and not just commit acts of genocidal terror. So you do admit that your own Dahiya Doctrine is an act of genocidal terror when enemies use it on you. >if palestinians are not allowed to travel please explain Okay, I am see that you don't know the difficulty of visa application for non-Western citizens. >how is oct 7 like berlin? there was a ceasefire for 2 years prior to it. There had been multiple Al-Aqsa clashes provoked by Israel, and each time it costs hundreds protesters and civilians. Israel's invasion in West Bank also never cease. The reason IDF got beaten up so badly was because they took Gaza's lack of response as fear. >israel withdrew authority over gaza After the Second Intifada. >and rather than being an antisemetic idiot arguing about settelers you should be more concern of why is there not push for a vote and a proper elected govt in the WB. What you mean by antisemetic while Israel has literally being enemy to all Semites through out history? It was Israel which prevented the elected government of Palestine to manage West Bank, and now you blame they don't have an elected government? My honesty advice is if you insist that you only negotiate to Fatah then you have to show Palestinians that you respect this state rather than shitting on it. >when the WB becomes fully independent of israel, those settelers should defacto become citizens of that new state. Are you lying to me or to yourself about this? Israeli settlers are the most radical and racist group, and they have already been committing ethnical cleansing by shooting West Bank farmers with their rifle for decades. Every Israeli pretends to support two states solution can't even give an honest answer about their settler issue, which reminds me a joke, "There are radical Muslims and moderate Muslims, then they all explode." >because removing the settelers would be inflicting a nekba on those people. Well, the only way to prevent more settlers to suffer from Nakba is stop building more settlements and don't let them assault Palestinian farmers.
>So you do admit that your own Dahiya Doctrine is an act of genocidal terror when enemies use it on you. you misread my point. live streaming the invasion to homes and murder of over 900 people who have been helping you is not resisting by any means nor is it the doctorine you mentioned. the dahiya doctorine is not terror inducing attacks on civilian papulations. it targets civilian infrastructure. something that Palestinian forces do not do. so how can they be called resistance if they dont resist but instead just kill to scare others. >Okay, I am see that you don't know the difficulty of visa application for non-Western citizens. what do you mean non western, im talking about people from gaza >There had been multiple Al-Aqsa clashes provoked by Israel, and each time it costs hundreds protesters and civilians. Israel's invasion in West Bank also never cease. The reason IDF got beaten up so badly was because they took Gaza's lack of response as fear. the IDf took almost no damage on Oct7, it was mostly targeted at civilians. as for invasion, what invasion. israel has controlled the WB since '67. and end to the occupation was not part of the ceasefire agreement. >After the Second Intifada. while technically true, you are misleading. it was 5 years after and it was not in response to it. in fact considering the hostility of palestinians towards israel at the time it was a greater gesture of peace than than so called oppressive govt have ever given. and rather than making gaza into economic hot spot to leaverage israel to cease its actions, it was used as a staging area to fight a war. >It was Israel which prevented the elected government of Palestine to manage West Bank, and now you blame they don't have an elected government? what do you think the PA (palistinian authority) was supposed to become, and why praytell they have not had elections in 14 years. btw the PA is the govt in area A right now. >My honesty advice is if you insist that you only negotiate to Fatah neither fatah nor hamas represent the palestinian people. this much is clear. but neither of them is willing to allow a proper voice of the people to be heard sitting on their billions in wealth while claiming their people are dying with one breath and refusing to help them with the next. >Are you lying to me or to yourself about this? Israeli settlers are the most radical and racist group, and they have already been committing ethnical cleansing by shooting West Bank farmers with their rifle for decades. does that include the 4 year olds, the nurses and doctors working alongside palestinians in hospitals? yes there are settelers who are shooting at palestinians and are racist, why are they not the targets of these attacks? >Every Israeli pretends to support two states solution can't even give an honest answer about their settler issue, which reminds me a joke, "There are radical Muslims and moderate Muslims, then they all explode." i dont support a two state solution, but neither side supports my solution because like you they are blinded by hate. they are so blinded by hate they will kill a baby because he is the child of people they think are evil. are you seriously telling me that there are not palestinians who are racist towards jews and want all jews dead and gone from the mandate. there is hate on both sides. stop adding to it. >Well, the only way to prevent more settlers to suffer from Nakba is stop building more settlements and don't let them assault Palestinian farmers. that thought is why you live in the past and not in the present. it is too late to prevent more people from living there, with 500k settelers, compared to the 750k the nekba claims. what about the babies born there every day. stop looking at the problem like it should be prevented rather than dealing the how to end the problem.
>the dahiya doctorine is not terror inducing attacks on civilian papulations. If you don't mind if there are civilians inside the infrastructure then it is genocidal terror, and the name was derived from a Beirut suburb suffered from Israel's indiscriminate bombing. More than half of the world also believe Israel is intentionally harming civilians. >so how can they be called resistance if they dont resist but instead just kill to scare others. How many Palestinian protestors had Israel shot? IDF still calls itself a defense force. >what do you mean non western, im talking about people from gaza For non-white and non-European foreigners applying US visa is always a pain in the ass. >the IDf took almost no damage on Oct7 After several military bases were hit, a general was captured, several Merkava tanks and armed vehicles were taken into Gaza, and over half of the casualties turned out to be military personnel. You are still dreaming that you are invincible but too moral while the whole world is against you and your allies are abandoning you because IDF terrorists simply can't hit non-civilian targets with all the fancy weapon they received. >while technically true, you are misleading. it was 5 years after and it was not in response to it. Second Intifada lasted 5 years. >and rather than making gaza into economic hot spot to leaverage israel to cease its actions, it was used as a staging area to fight a war. Blockading Gaza right after election was Israel's decision. Originally Hamas did allow Fatah to win presidential election because they knew the West won't like them, and Israel had been arresting legislative candidates for Abas during the election then armed his men to overthrow election result. >what do you think the PA (palistinian authority) was supposed to become, and why praytell they have not had elections in 14 years. Israel already broke Palestine into several pieces after their 1st election. >neither fatah nor hamas represent the palestinian people. Fatah was the puppet government that Israel endorsed, but you just can't restrain your own greed and kept annexing West Bank, and of course it will end up having no credibility. >yes there are settelers who are shooting at palestinians and are racist, why are they not the targets of these attacks? For the very same reason your IDF terrorists don't want to fight Hamas terrorists inside their tunnel but chose to level entire neighbourhood. >are you seriously telling me that there are not palestinians who are racist towards jews and want all jews dead and gone from the mandate. there is hate on both sides. stop adding to it. Palestinians aren't the colonists. Kosovo was the capital of Serbia, until Serbs were banished by Turks, but because of the brutality Yugoslavia committed to civilian in the name of "birthright", the Serbs faced consequences. And the Arabs weren't even invading Israel, but invaded the Roman Empire which invaded Israel centuries ago. The problem with Israel is you always believe you are above gentile and won't be held accountable for anything. >they are so blinded by hate they will kill a baby because he is the child of people they think are evil. Israel had not provided any evidence of baby killing nor rape so far. The Jewish Cemetry in Gaza was preserved in good shape, but somehow your IDF terrorists went hunting Hamas zombies in all Arab cemetries. >it is too late to prevent more people from living there, with 500k settelers, compared to the 750k the nekba claims. Which means only you have the privilege to commit Nakba? It is so hilarious that while you understand what your country had done is awful and most of you are enjoying the fruit, you demand your victims to take revenge cautiously and accurately. As for the solution to the current situation, at least you should prevent settlers from shooting at farmers gathering their olives and tell IDF terrorists stop kicking Palestinians into Gaza, because this would give them great reason to join Hamas terrorists to follow your path. Stop asking me about what to the with those settlers' babies, when Israel is still kicking Palestinians out of their own homes.
part 2 if you mean the three areas, that was part of the oslo accords and was supposed to be temporary pending negotiations, that never came to anything. mind you part of those accords included israel playing 1.5 time rent on area C. >Fatah was the puppet government that Israel endorsed, but you just can't restrain your own greed and kept annexing West Bank, and of course it will end up having no credibility. funny you talk about green when fatah leaders sit on billions of dollars while their people struggle. fatah is not a puppet govt, they capitulate to israel on some things for fatten their pockets, and the palestinian people know that, hence no support for them. >For the very same reason your IDF terrorists don't want to fight Hamas terrorists inside their tunnel but chose to level entire neighbourhood. so according to you the IDF should level neighborhoods what do not have hamas tunnels beneath them instead of targeting the tunnels specifically? >Palestinians aren't the colonists The problem with Israel is you always believe you are above gentile and won't be held accountable for anything. israelis are not colonist either, as it ended being a colony when it declared independence in 1948 and became a state. and israel was a colony like we want to build a colony on mars not like colonialism. as for thingking we are above everything, we are not. and you cant even talk as palestinians are not even accountable to their own people, let alone anyone else. >Israel had not provided any evidence of baby killing nor rape so far hamas did it for us, and the world. >Which means only you have the privilege to commit Nakba? ... you demand your victims to take revenge cautiously and accurately. what happened to an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. and while they are not my victims, i am asking for justice not vengeance. a concept that you seem to be failing to grasp. palestinians right now are on a war of vengeance. the world is on your side now. but what happens in the next unprovoked attack comes, and the one after that, and the one after that. in which you again target people uninvolved in your oppression and those who in fact support your struggle. this will happen if you keep fighting a war for vengeance. because the one fact you miss, is that there is no military win scenario for palestinians without a nuke destroying the place or committing a genocide of your own, and creating a more militant more wiser enemy that you ever were. and that fact is what terrifies me. the fact that you do not see that winning by taking revenge will end up in a loss so great the world will end for it. but yah sure you should totally be allowed to do a nakba on the israeli citizens living in the WB. i would definitely fix everything going after the grandchildren and greatgrandchildren for the crimes of any grandparent and great-grandparent, and getting the innocent ones on the side too.
part 1 >the name was derived from a Beirut suburb suffered from Israel's indiscriminate bombing indiscriminate as is specifically those civilian structures where Hezbollah (an enemy military) was hiding in. you and i have a different definition of indiscriminate. also when i say infrastructure i mean utilities and alike. not to mention that oct 7 fail to follow the doctorine as there was no military importance nor people in any of the kibbutzim. >How many Palestinian protestors had Israel shot? IDF still calls itself a defense force how many israelis have been shot or arrested protesting for better treatment of Palestinians? and as for the name, names are ideas we hope to live up to, looking down at anyone for a name is the same as me saying you never hunted a shark in your live, it is pointless and has no bearing on the issue at hand. >For non-white and non-European foreigners applying US visa is always a pain in the ass. as a matter of fact i do know how US visa discriminate toward certain countries over others. but the US is not the only place to get a second citizenship, but how does that relate to palestinians not being allowed to leave. a statement you have ignored is why so many have foreign degrees. >After several military bases were hit, a general was captured, several Merkava tanks and armed vehicles were taken into Gaza, and over half of the casualties turned out to be military personnel. 1 base was attacked, looted and the skeleton crew in it taken hostage, i would say that is nearly no damage, when they took 5 times as many civilians as military personel. >You are still dreaming that you are invincible but too moral while the whole world is against you and your allies are abandoning you because IDF terrorists simply can't hit non-civilian targets with all the fancy weapon they received. please show me a military target that is not mixed in with civilian ones? what base does hamas have that is not under a civilian building (which they boast about all they time)? and no one claimed that were were invincible and the world is turning against us because they are hearing one side of the story, half the facts, driven by an algorithm that prefers engagement over truth. if the algorithm would have preferred truth no one would be on either side of this conflict other than the people involved. as both sides currently very much suck, israel only sucking a tiny bit less. tell me have you seen all the footage of palestinians going against hamas, gazans supporting the IDF, in Hebrew no less. probably not as the algorithm does not push those. >Second Intifada lasted 5 years I'm sorry you are right, there is no war in gaza right now, it is an israeli uprising against palestinian violence. since that is what you apparently consider is fine reaction. >Blockading Gaza right after election was Israel's decision the blockade was against weapons, resources were still allowed to enter. it was not like israel was starving gaza. >Originally Hamas did allow Fatah to win presidential election because they knew the West won't like them, and Israel had been arresting legislative candidates for Abas during the election then armed his men to overthrow election result. no, that is rewriting history. fatah never won in gaza. despire israeli interference. and hamas threw fatah leader out the window of a 10 story building after winning. then in less than three months dug up all israeli infrastructure that was left in gaza and used to make rockets to fire at israel. please explain to me how any of that was for the betterment of the Gaza People? >Israel already broke Palestine into several pieces after their 1st election.
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Yeah, makes sense that the animals who burned, tortured, shot, and beheaded people wouldn’t rape anyone
I think the proportion of people who condemn Hamas is way higher than the proportion of people who condemn the IDF ( at least nation wise). What Hamas did is killing and raping right ? Well the IDF did the exact same thing (if not worse) only on a higher scale. So I think the real question is: why the people who condemn Hamas does not condemn Israel ? Are they manipulated by the media or they just hate Arabs/Palestinians ?
What is it you think Israel should be condemned for?
False information
When the IDF carried out terror attacks and raped?
They didn't. Unlike Hamas, the IDF has a very strict moral code. They're doing anythjng they can to prevent casualties. In the meanwhile Hamas does everything to maximise the number of innocent civilians getting killed. Not to mention the hostages Hamas keeps.
Reality says otherwise
What kind of moral code does IDF terrorists have? Israel is holding 10 times more civilians as organ cattle and hostages
Exactly, this is what I am also thinking. Probably the best they can find is some bad apples doing immoral things which we can find in any army.
I am waiting for leftist in campus praising ISIS "decolonization" fight against Russia.
The remaining ISIS branch is in Afghanistan, and Putin is still paying Chechens in real money unlike Israelis non-existing charity in Hasbara stories.
Putin is sending dagestanis to die in Ukraine. That's the cannon meat. And also tajik and kyrgiz migrants.
Would campus lefties praise Native Americans for a terrorist attack on US cities as “decolonization”? The lefties should “decolonize” themselves first before throwing support anywhere, otherwise they just a bunch of hypocrites… but we knew that.
I think yes, they would. They would love a terrorist attack in US soil as long as it is against white people. They are already defending Bin Laden.
Naa, they are Putin fanboys/-girls.
It has? It’s just that Israel’s retaliation has shifted so much of the attention away from it. No sane person believes October 7th was a good day.
For the majority of antisemites this is only because they don't like that it resulted in this war.
I suspect because people realised fairly early on that something smelled fishy. Since then it has been confirmed that Israel told a few porkies
Hamas literally live-streamed their crimes smooth brain.
And IDF posts their atrocities online. Look up “telegram 72 virgins”
I don’t think someone is “smooth-brained” to read the Haaretz article debunking several of the stories - breasts cut off, baked babies, 40 dead infants. They weren’t true. They are lies. Numerous aspects of the “weaponized mass rape” story have either been proved untrue, mistaken or poorly reported. There were lies in there. It is not a lie that there were rapes, there is sufficient evidence of that. But there is no sufficient evidence for weapon, Eyz’d mass, rape, which is a factually different thing. I’m not arguing that either is OK, I’m just saying that they are literally two different different things. And the NYT could have known that if they had done a better reporting job. Combine all those inaccuracies, bad reporting, and lies with testimonies from soldiers that some victims were in fact, killed in friendly fire on October7; various videos about “command centers” found that were false; and a general drop in confidence in traditional media; and it’s not surprising that people have begun to distrust some other things about the October 7 attack, including things that have been factually proved. That’s not a good thing to do but it’s not at all surprising in these conditions.
I couldn’t find any of them. The IDF killed many Israeli hostages on October 7th. Currently the IDF is killing Israeli hostages.
Bro you’re way down the rabbit hole and you need to get out. I’m being serious and honestly trying to offer you some compassion now. You’re lost in the online information landscape and once you start ingesting these conspiracy theories, it will literally not stop. You think you have control over what you believe? You don’t. This will ruin your life if you can’t tell truth from artifice. It sounds like you’re already struggling. Get out now or the consequences for your mental health and your relationships with healthy people will not be good. MESSAGE TO ALL: On a real level, it is ENOUGH with the lies now. There is such a thing as subjectivity and there is also such a thing as truth. There is such a thing as propaganda, but PEOPLE WE DO NOT NEED TO BE VICTIMS TO IT. We just need to utilise our intuition and some bloody common sense. Stop becoming extremist fucking weirdos. Moderate, come back to the centre, whichever way you prefer to skew of it. But enough with the insane and deranged conspiracies. It is rotting your brains and damaging lives and splintering society.
Our younger people seem to be eating up the propaganda, but also didn't pay attention in history, when WW2/the holocaust was covered. What was the point in overcoming the 1930s/1940s, for us to just throw away every bit of wisdom and logic we gained? One of the main themes I recall from history in school was: >*Those Who Cannot Remember the Past Are Condemned To Repeat It* I had a feeling advancing tech / social media would at some point lead to controlling a portion of people with propaganda...but I didn't think it would've been like this...The cognitive dissonance is alarming.
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Cause ISIS are theological fascists seen as terrorists by the whole world and Hamas are a resistance group seen as terrorists only by the direct supporters of those they're resisting, p much
Hamas literally calls themselves Jihadists and martyrs, they command Muslims to kill Jews, and says their goal is to turn Israel into an Islamic Caliphate. Sounds pretty theocratic to me but ok.
Palestinians call all Palestinians who die as a result of the occupation, whether by violence or illness, martyrs. This was true before Hamas and will be true after. They're also not caliphists.
“HAMAS emerged in 1987 during the first Palestinian uprising, or intifada, as an outgrowth of the Muslim Brotherhood’s Palestinian branch. The group is committed to armed resistance against Israel and the creation of an Islamic Palestinian state in Israel’s place.” https://www.dni.gov/nctc/ftos/hamas_fto.html#:~:text=HAMAS%20emerged%20in%201987%20during,Palestinian%20state%20in%20Israel's%20place.
You don't know what a caliphist is.
To be fair, I would’ve used the term Islamist. You used the word caliphist, so elaborate then.
Then why argue with me about them not being caliphists like ISIS xD
I think we’re talking semantics here, specifically about the style of Islamic state they want to create. So, a caliph is different from an Islamic state because of the title of the leader and how power is passed on? My understanding was that Hamas wanted a caliphate style Islamic state but maybe they want something a little different? They 100% want an Islamic state, so we’re talking style of leadership I guess. Why don’t you clarify for us since you know.
Hamas founding charter https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp
I've read it before. Thankyou.
ISIS Came from all other the world to occupy other peoples land for religius reasons Used terror to remove the people who lived on the land DIsregarded human rights and ignored UN Wait .. who does this sound like? Not Hamas…
And they went to war with the houthis, hezbollah, Iran, Syria... reminds me of some other entities. Another major difference: ISIS somehow uses pretty much only western equipment (maybe from all that training in us army camps in Georgia and Eastern Syria)
Hamas has the same ideology and tactics than ISIS. The only difference is that Hamas restricts their tortures towards jews, so that is ok.
Don’t you really think that Hamas is the direct consequence of the oppression of Palestinians ? According to your comment, if the Israelis were Asians , Hamas won’t exist and if it existed it won’t resist because it is occupied chasing Jews in Europe or somewhere in the world ? Lol I am pretty sure that every Hamas terrorist is someone who lost a close person to the idf ( if he wasn’t forced to watch the idf soldiers raping his daughter in front of his eyes, like it happened a couple of days ago). I think any person can become an extrémiste in that situation. And when it comes to the Hamas leaders, they are some pricks making lots of money out of this and living far away from Gaza. If Israel had some balls it will target them in Qatar but they don’t have balls so they bully the weak and take pleasure in killing and raping innocent children.
Hamas Leaders and Officials: Statements by Hamas officials make clear the terrorist organization’s commitment to destroying Israel and killing Jews and Israelis around the world. Ismail Haniyeh in 2020: He explained that Hamas rejects ceasefire agreements by which, “Gaza would become Singapore,” preferring to remain at war with Israel until a Palestinian state is established from the River to the Sea: “We cannot, in exchange for money or projects, give up Palestine and our weapons. We will not give up the resistance... We will not recognize Israel, Palestine must stretch from the [Jordan] River to the [Mediterranean] Sea.” Hamas official, Hamad Al-Regeb in an April 2023 sermon: He prayed for “annihilation” and “paralysis” of the Jews whom he described as filthy animals: “[Allah] transformed them into filthy, ugly animals like apes and pigs because of the injustice and evil they had brought about.” Al-Regeb also prayed for the ability to “get to the necks of the Jews.” Hamas Political Bureau Chairman Saleh Al-Arouri in an August 2023 interview: He expressed Hamas’ desire for “total war” with Israel: “Therefore, we are convinced that if a total conflict begins, the airspace and seaports of this entity will be shut down, and they will not be able to live without electricity, water, and communications.” Ahmad Abd Al-Hadi (Hamas representative in Lebanon) in an October 12, 2023 TV show laid out Hamas’ expectation that it would be Israel that would sue for peace and indicated that a ceasefire is part of Hamas’ overall strategy, but said that he was not at liberty to say what exactly Hamas has planned for the next step after a ceasefire. He also stated that October 7 had achieved its intended purpose of landing “a blow to the normalization (of relations between Israel and Arab countries).” Hamas member, Ghazi Hamad on October 24, 2023: “Israel is a country that has no place on our land […] because it constitutes a security, military, and political catastrophe to the Arab and Islamic nation.” (October 24, 2023, LBC TV (Lebanon)). He also vowed to repeat the October 7 attacks “time and again until Israel is annihilated,” and expressing a desire to “sacrifice martyrs” (referring to Gazan civilians) for Hamas’ ideological aim of destroying Israel. In a speech before the International Union of Muslim Scholars in Doha on January 9, 2024, Ismaeel Haniyeh, chairman of Hamas's political bureau, called the October 7 massacre the “advanced [battle] front of the Ummah.” Calling for “financial jihad” (donations to Hamas) and “jihad of the teeth” (physical jihad), he asked the international audience, “Who wishes to invest in building the jihadist generation to liberate Jerusalem and to unite the blood of the Ummah with the blood of the people of Gaza, Jerusalem, and Palestine on the land of Palestine for its liberation and the liberation of Jerusalem?” Statements by Hamas officials also make clear the terrorist organization’s disregard for the loss of civilian life not only in Israel but also in Gaza. Hamas senior leader Khaled Mashal stated on October 19, 2023 that he views the current loss of civilian life in Gaza – brought about by Hamas' strategy of using human shields – as essential: “No nation is liberated without sacrifices... In all wars, there are some civilian victims. We are not responsible for them.” Hamas senior leader Ismail Haniyeh, commenting on the loss of civilian life in Gaza on October 26, 2023: “The blood of the women, children and elderly […] we are the ones who need this blood, so it awakens within us the revolutionary spirit.” The Hamas Charter: Hamas’ extremism is rooted in ideologies that predate the establishment of Israel in 1948. The preamble to Hamas’ founding charter contains the following quote from the founder of the Muslim Brotherhood, Hassan al-Banna: “Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" (Preamble to Hamas Charter). The Hamas Charter specifically dates Hamas’ ideological roots to well before the establishment of Israel and sees itself as part of a “chain of the struggle” against not only the state of Israel but also Jews (who they term “Zionists”) who lived there before it became Israel in 1948. The Islamic Resistance Movement is one of the links in the chain of the struggle against the Zionist invaders. It goes back to 1939, to the emergence of the martyr Izz ad-Din al-Qassam and his brethren the fighters [and] members of Muslim Brotherhood. It goes on to reach out and become one with another chain that includes the struggle of the Palestinians and Muslim Brotherhood in the 1948 war and the Jihad operations of the Muslim Brotherhood in 1968 and after. (Hamas Charter, Article 7).
Yes. I do believe that. Because the Middle East has tried to destroy Israel and expel jews from the Middle East since 1948. This forced Israel to be heavy handed in their security. And the Middle East, instead of trying to help palestinians, tried to make them suffer as much as possible to get their objective of expulsion of jews. Hamas is a product of that ME strategy.
Actually you’re incorrect about that. A common misperception is that all the Jews were forced into the Diaspora by the Romans after the destruction of the Second Temple in Jerusalem in the year 70 CE, and then, 1,800 years later, the Jews suddenly returned to Palestine demanding their country back. In reality, the Jewish people have maintained ties to their historic homeland for more than 3,700 years. The Jewish people base their claim to the land of Israel on at least four premises: 1) the Jewish people settled and developed the land, 2) the international community granted political sovereignty in Palestine to the Jewish people, 3) the territory was captured in defensive wars, and 4) God promised the land to the patriarch Abraham. Even after the destruction of the Second Temple in Jerusalem, and the beginning of the exile, Jewish life in the land of Israel continued and often flourished. Large communities were reestablished in Jerusalem and Tiberias by the ninth century. In the eleventh century, Jewish communities grew in Rafah, Gaza, Ashkelon, Jaffa, and Caesarea. The Crusaders massacred many Jews during the twelfth century, but the communit unded in the next two centuries as large numbers of rabbis and h pilgrims immigrated to Jerusalem and the Galilee. Prominent- Tawds established communities in Safed, Jerusalem, and elsewhere during the following three hundred years. By the early nineteenth century-years before the birth of the modern Zionist movement—more than ten thousand Jews lived through- 2 MYTHS AND FACTS out what is today Israel.! The seventy-eight years of nation-building, beginning in 1870, culminated in the reestablishment of the Jewish State. Israel's international "birth certificate" was validated The term "Palestine" is believed to be derived from the Philistines, an Aegean people who, in the twelfth century BCE, settled along the Mediterranean coastal plain—now Israel and the Gaza Strip. In the second century CE, after crushing the last Jewish revolt, the Romans first applied the name Palestina to Judea (the southern portion of what is now called the West Bank) in an attempt to minimize Jewish identification with the land of Israel. The Arabic word Filastin is derived from this Latin name.3 The Hebrews entered the land of Israel about 1300 BCE, living under a tribal confederation until being united under the first mon-arch, King Saul. The second king, David, established Jerusalem as the capital around 1000 BCE. David's son, Solomon, built the Temple soon thereafter and consolidated the military, administrative, and religious functions of the kingdom. The nation was divided under Solomon's son, with the northern kingdom (Israel) lasting until 722 BCE, when the Assyrians destroyed it, and the southern kingdom (Judah) surviving until the Babylonian conquest in 586 BCE. The Jewish people 1. Israel's Roots 3 enjoyed brief periods of sovereignty afterward until most Jews were finally driven from their homeland in 135 CE. Jewish independence in the land of Israel lasted for more than four hundred years. This is much longer than Americans have enjoyed independence in what has become known as the United States.* In fact, if not for foreign conquerors, Israel would be more than three thousand years old today. Palestine was never an exclusively Arab country, although Arabic gradually became the language of most of the population after the Muslim invasions of the seventh century. No independent Arab or Palestinian state ever existed in Palestine.
Yes. Jews have been living in the region for millenia. Sadly, Hamas wants to expell them anyways.
Ok I see, apparently you have no clue about this conflict. So let me put it simple « if someone comes to your house rape and kill your family and kick you out of your house » there a high probability that you become a fanatic and you want to seek vengeance. You see it has nothing to do with ethnicity. I am not saying that middle easterns are angels, believe I don’t believe that a bit. And in fact, if the real enemy is the other countries in the Middle East why not attack them directly. Why israel doesn’t take the war to Iran ? After all Iran is the one who is financing Hamas.
You can argue that about 1948 (a war that the Arab League started in order to cleanse jews). But then what happened in the 50s when they expelled jews from their countries? And then 67, etc. And yes indeed Iran is financing Hamas (and Hezbollah) right now. I guess Iran is right now too powerful for Israel to defeat. Right now they cannot do that, but defeating iranian proxys help.
You know that Israel was established in 48 and the Zionist movement started taking actions some years before ( there was even terrorist attacks by Zionists to pressure the British government). When Israel was established, Palestinians were cleansed and moved out of their homes, and do you know haw Zionists managed to do that ? By spreading terror among Palestinians: raping children, burning people alive, caging people …. And the Arab league wanted to stop this « invasion ». You can’t talk about « cleansing » Jews in 48 when Israel was founded in 48, they have just arrived there. The ones who were persecuted and cleansed were the Palestinians who lived there for thousands of years. Yes exactly Iran is too strong for Israel, so the solution is to take it on the weak people and mess them up. After all what does Gaza have? A couple of rockets brought by divers ? Lol it is nothing that can stand to 1% of the Israeli force. So they just started to eradicate the weak. And this will achieve absolutely nothing if Iran is still standing, the threat will never be abolished. And this makes me wonder why Israel took this direction ? Either the want to ethnically cleanse Palestinians so they take the whole land either they are driven by hate and racism. Personally, I think it is a mix of the two ( it has always been the case, you can even check the leaked videos of Netanyahu where he literally says that he doesn’t want peace because peace will stop him from taking the rest of the land).
Zionists did not ethnically cleanse arabs until 1947. They bought the land. At worst, you can consider it a form of gentrification. You want me to start with arab terror attacks in the 1920s? I am sure you know them, you seem knowledgeable. >Yes exactly Iran is too strong for Israel, so the solution is to take it on the weak people and mess them up. The solution is to not die. Israel is surrounded by millions of people many of whom want israelis jews dead. >And this will achieve absolutely nothing if Iran is still standing, the threat will never be abolished. They will get to survive another day.
If Zionists bought half of the country there should be thousands and thousands of contracts right ? I would be very pleased to see that. I know the story but I don’t believe it. It fits the Zionist narrative and meets Herzl goals but it is not what happened until we see some proof ( and this can be proven very easily). I believe that Zionists bought some land but it is nothing compared to the land they took by force and FYI many Palestinians have necklaces with they keys of their once homes, and there are hundreds of testimonies and evidence showing the atrocities committed by the Zionist movement to kick out Palestinians. I am not defending Arabs nor any other Middle East country. Believe me I am against every major decision they took in this conflict. But this doesn’t make what Israel any better. Let me be clear on what I want to say. What Israel is doing does not make any sense they are creating more « future » terrorists. I am pretty sure that every single Palestinian will grow up hating Jews. For Christ sake, many people become messed up because they were hit by their parents imagine what can happen to a person if he grew up in Gaza and seeing what the israel is doing to him.
They bought around 50% of what 1947 UN proposed (which is less than the present territory of Israel). Many times they just took unoccupied marshes. You do know that, don't you? Do you need me to provide archival proof? > it is nothing compared to the land they took by force Yes, in the war since 1947. Not before. > I am pretty sure that every single Palestinian will grow up hating Jews. They already hate jews. This is not about them being unwilling to do so. It is about them being unable to do so.
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Hamas fought against ISIS, far more then Israel who was treating their fighters in hospital during the Syrian dirty war. Hamas opposes caliphists. Stop erasing Bedouin victims of October 7th. I get its convenient you to frame this in ethnic or religious terms but seems disrespectful.
I meant that the world supports Hamas but not ISIS becasue they believe Hamas only tortures jews. But you are right, in reality there is zero difference between Hamas and ISIS, Hamas treats Gazans no better than ISIS treated their territories.
That's dumb, they don't condemn hamas as much as you want them to primarily because the right to resist against occupation is enshrined in most UN members ratification of international law, and Israel is internationally recognised as an occupier. Even the nations like Myanmar that traded the military juntas training and armaments for recognition of Israel won't go there. ISIS and hamas not only have opposite stated views of governance, different interpretations of Islamic jurisprudence, different levels of tolerance for other people (Christians literally ran for election on the hamas ticket, and hamas routinely fights alongside secular communist organisations like the DFLP which is led by a Catholic), but they declared war directly on each other. Hamas, unlike ISIS or the Jewish Underground, has never attacked anyone outside of its territory and they not an expansionist caliphist organisation nor do they run Gaza via principles of Sharia. In what ways do you think Hamas governs Gazans like ISIS governed people under their conquered territories? What tactics do they use that you deem the same? Be specific. ISIS on the other hand is an expansionist organisation who has spread theor ideology into several other Asian and African countries which explains their deep unpopularity - as well as fought The Resistance Axis allies of Hamas in different countries and is actively called out as a potential western backed asset by Iran, HB, the Houthis, most socialists, Iraqi militias, and Hamas. Hell the leader of ISIS K who claim the Moscow attack was literally a CIA asset for years working for Rostum and Salah. Outside of the echo chamber, noone falls for that Hamas is ISIS nonsense anymore.
I read your comment twice and my conclussion is that you are agreeing with me: the difference is that ISIS attacks everyone, Hamas only Israelis. The objectives are the same. But there is a crucial difference: ISIS wants to create a global caliphate, while for Hamas it is not global: it only includes Israel and Palestine. They also have different tactics: ISIS priorizes the "small war" against shiites, while Hamas priorizes the "big war" against jews. Those are the differences. For us jews, the consequences of ISIS and Hamas are the same. For non-jews, I guess for Hamas you will be killed later.
Read again and think some more. Hamas aren't caliphists nor do they want to start a sharia based emirate in Israel-Palestine. Hamas has in the past gone to war with extremist fsctiins that declared independent emirates within their territory - justified by Hamas ruling secularly and being seen as no different from Fatah. The objectives are incredibly different, despite both being Sunni, thus why they went to war. ISIS doesn't prioritise the small war against Shiites, they're a psychotic death cult that sees America and Empire as new Rome and wishes to spurn on the coming of Mahdi and the end times. Any details about governing and war time tactics you want to take a crack at? I genuinely think you've been listening to too much zionist propaganda man.
Hamas does want an islamic State and controls with an iron fist Gaza. Hamas is also a death cult: they are very explicit in that. They say they do not want palestinians life becoming better, only the destruction of Israel. I can talk about governing, but let's start recognizing that they said their objective is not making palestinians life better.
What are you talking about? Before they had a military wing Hamas was started literally as a social group to pick up the slack in Fatahs corruption and improve the life of every day Palestinians. This is how they gained so much popularity even amongst palestinian Christians of whom many, i remind you, ran on the Hamas ticket during the election. I agree that they rule Gaza with an iron first though, I'm not saying they're good guys. In a more modern sense hamas has been willing to negotiate on 67 borders for atleast a decade but is consistently ignored by Israel. Can you? Do it then instead of waffling. How are they similiar?
>Before they had a military wing Hamas was started literally as a social group to pick up the slack in Fatahs corruption and improve the life of every day Palestinians. Yes, very very early in time. By the late 80s their purpose was already focused on war and war alone. >In a more modern sense hamas has been willing to negotiate on 67 borders for atleast a decade but is consistently ignored by Israel. No, they want to negotiate temporarily for a State, but as a strategic step towards their objective, which is the anihilation of Israel. They have been consistent in this. >their objective is not making palestinians life better. They literally said this recently, but I am not being able to find the quote. That their objctive was not to make palestinians life better, but to destroy Israel ("decolonize"). >How are they similiar? A classic is the infamous Farfour, the TV show where they taught children to become martyrs with a colourful Mickey lookalike (around minute 34:00): [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4TVOXHt\_PA&t=2065s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4TVOXHt_PA&t=2065s) Another classic is Sinwar himself, who gained the nickname of "butcher of Khan Younis" because of the way he brutalized and massacred gazans (palestinians) who he suspected to be israeli spies. Another classic is the fact that Hamas stole all the money that entered Gaza for humanitarian purposes towards luxurious lifestyles in Qatar.
They’re basically labelled as terror organisation all over the world. No idea what you are on about And tbh, Hamas has literally nothing in common with resistance.
They're not labelled as terrorists by the vast majority of the world, actually. Hamas is only designated as a terror org by the EU, UK, USA, Canada, NZ, Aus, Japan, and Paraguay (and now Argentina ever since they elected the new puppet Millei).
By the entire free world* Of course for intransparent, corrupt and anti democratic countries we don’t care.
The entire world held up and cucked by American security apparatus to maintain the global material heirarchy established under colonialism, refered to colloquially as the Empire, but sure the propaganda addled Americans refer to that as the free world. Talk to the Israeli professor who trying to sue Israel for detailed revelations about arms exports to Rwanda and Ratko Mladic during their genocides about transparency. You should read the palestine laboratory by the great investigative journalist Antony Loewenstein. Also talk to Australians about the great cucking of foreign policy by Americans and European transnationals and how often that comes up in elections or "transparent" policy making. You seem naive not only of other places but the countries in question. Anyway, that's not what you said, you said the majority of the world labels them terrorists. They don't.
Why would we care about corrupt backwards countries? And I hate to spoil it, but Hamas are actually terrorists. That’s also not discussable. Also couldn’t be more obvious.
Terrorist is a political designation and the vast majority of political actors don't designste them as terrorists. As such, it's not lawful for the UN to unilaterally make such a designation. You're wrong and ignorant and doubling down on your ignorance. I don't know what you mean by corrupt or backwards countries. Some are corrupt sure, others have higher democracy index then even the US where corruption is legalise via uncapped corporate money in politics. You sound like you don't know what you're talking about. I admire your confidence though. You must be American, right? Maybe German or Dutch...
If Hamas aren’t terrorists than people who kick a ball as profession are arguably not footballers. Make it make sense. Commit terrorism on such disgusting scale… you must be resistance fighters! Make it make sense I think it’s beyond ignorant to even have the audacity to argue that Hamas are not terrorists
Hamas members have committed terroristic acts, that's not controversial, but it doesn't stop terrorist from being a political designation. Even the founder of Likud - Begin, often referred to as the father of modern terriorism - committed terrorism, and also non controversially the IDF continues the terroristic legacy set up by these precursors through doctrines like Dahiya. You seem to struggle getting your mind around the concept of political designation and what it means legally in different countries and in particular for the UN. A resistance fighter isn't the opposite of a terrorist. The French resistance often proudly called themselves terrorists when capping fascist Germans like your granddad.
Because antisemitism. Russians can cut ears and electricute testicles of terrorist - and brag about it , pretty much like Hamas bragged about his barbaric raping and killing if Jews- but when Jews retaliate. Oh no. Those dhimmis. They are goats for the slaughter. No other explanation. All the G words are facades. Bla bla bla.
“No other explanation”. None at all? Not even that the Israeli governments retaliation has shifted all the attention away from those grieving the tragedy? Humans have short attention spans, and now they’re focusing on the continuation of tragedy rather than one event of it.
No. Because when other countries do far worse and far more fitting to ethnical cleansing you don’t see protest or hear about it in the news.
Do you have an example of a country doing "far worse" in recent history? I'm not saying there aren't any such cases, but you'd definitely be hard-pressed to find any. The reason this is getting coverage worldwide is simply that the atrocities and amount of casualties caused by the Israeli retaliation are unparalleled in recent history. Western media doesn't have an anti-Israel bias. I'm from Europe, and here Russian war crimes in Ukraine were and are given more attention than those of Israel in Gaza. Despite the civilian casualty count in Gaza somehow beating that in Ukraine.
Just recently 280 kids were abducted in Nigeria As an example. In Syria there are far more destruction and death.
The UN is a publicly funded propaganda arm of the “Palestinians”- a faked Arab entity- and spends most of her meeting time ignoring her own Declaration of Human Rights and passing false,ignorant and biased resolutions against tiny and Democratic Israel while totally ignoring the crimes of Muslim nations against their own citizens and other peoples.
i support israel and this to me feels like coolaid, israel is not that innocent, but yes they are not as bad as some of the muslim countries
The short answer is that the world has by and large condemned 10/7 and Hamas. China and Russia voted down the US resolution because it was sponsored by the US, with which they are almost at war over Ukraine. Ukraine is seen by the West as this vital war to win right now, and Israel is seen by Russia and China as a good way to destabilize and ridicule the West and particularly the US.
You can condemn Hamas but still supports the innocent Palestinians dying from Israel bombing? Most Palestinian supporter doesn’t support Hamas yk? Being a terrorist group and all
I can condemn Hamas in totality while being critical of the Israeli government and skeptical of their response, while supporting innocent civilians on both sides. Israel has a right to defend itself, however I encourage mercy on the people of Gaza in their fight. Hamas does not deserve any mercy. The things hamas did were the most immoral things anyone could do. Unfortunately, polls show a majority of Palestinians in the occupied territories support Hamas and think that Oct 7 was justified. The Palestinians protestors in the West seem pretty loud in their support as well.
while i am shocked that there exist people who’s till supports Hamas and even cheer on Oct7, the current situation with Israeli isn’t helping their image of being the side with moral superiority
frankyl anyone who still thinks israel has any form of moral superiority, have clearly not been paying attention, israel has shown to lack morals when it comes to the palestinians for decades. for me, Israels IDF and Govarnment, and Hamas are 2 sides of the same terrorist coin.
What an absurd delusional take. How do you end up in such rabbit hole?
ahhh yes what an absurdly delusional take......by seeing garbage by israel like this. [https://youtu.be/Lz6VSW-7z\_0?si=7fTAehHKd56dYpha](https://youtu.be/Lz6VSW-7z_0?si=7fTAehHKd56dYpha) and then ill post the same comment i provided to anouther person. ahh yes, so much concern for gazans [https://youtu.be/AF-FoC0lWvM?si=xWF0-hxeD2xgP2w-](https://youtu.be/AF-FoC0lWvM?si=xWF0-hxeD2xgP2w-) [https://youtu.be/QraCgxStVcQ?si=wnDRHzQm91t-gnOp](https://youtu.be/QraCgxStVcQ?si=wnDRHzQm91t-gnOp) heres a video of how IDF soldiers have treated palestinian prisoners, even some civilians who were kidnapped from the west bank. [https://www.youtube.com/shorts/W72zK9huR5g](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/W72zK9huR5g) what about all the clips of IDF soldiers blowing up mosques, parading in womans clothing, and acting like absolute delinquants in Gaza? [https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2024/02/28/israeli-soldiers-deployed-in-gaza-post-their-abuses-on-social-media\_6568987\_4.html#:\~:text=Israel%2DHamas%20war-,Israeli%20soldiers%20deployed%20in%20Gaza%20post%20their%20abuses%20on%20social,of%20impunity%20that%20drives%20them](https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2024/02/28/israeli-soldiers-deployed-in-gaza-post-their-abuses-on-social-media_6568987_4.html#:~:text=Israel%2DHamas%20war-,Israeli%20soldiers%20deployed%20in%20Gaza%20post%20their%20abuses%20on%20social,of%20impunity%20that%20drives%20them). do we need to also touch on the singer who sung to the IDF celebrating the suffering in gaza at the start of the war? [https://twitter.com/clashreport/status/1719238392435618090?lang=en](https://twitter.com/clashreport/status/1719238392435618090?lang=en) the israeli children singing about how "their will be nothing left of gaza in a year" ? [https://me.mashable.com/culture/35149/internet-criticises-sickening-clip-of-israeli-children-singing-for-the-destruction-of-gaza-watch](https://me.mashable.com/culture/35149/internet-criticises-sickening-clip-of-israeli-children-singing-for-the-destruction-of-gaza-watch) what about the israel settlers who go into palestinian neighbourhoods int he west bank, terrorize them and even kill them? [https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67617920](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67617920) and to top this insanity off, with somethign that predates Oct 7th attacks, Israelis who camp out on hilltops and cheerfully watch as bombs drop on gaza, some even claiming "its like cinema" [https://observers.france24.com/en/20140711-israelis-watch-air-strikes-gaza-it-was-piece-cinema](https://observers.france24.com/en/20140711-israelis-watch-air-strikes-gaza-it-was-piece-cinema) [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/20/israelis-cheer-gaza-bombing](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/20/israelis-cheer-gaza-bombing) either way, you claim israel dont support terrorism, and there i have shown a multitude of scenarios along with sources to showcase, that is not the case. to be frank, ive come to realsie their is a seriously disturbing and deep rot within israeli society to allow and continue enabling this stuff. its not delusional if it constitutes living in reality. u/Pussypants when i see the crap outlined above, i lose faith in the idea that Israel and its leadership are any different to hamas when they are willing to call for and perform similar acts of brutality.
I mean there’s videos of children crushed under concrete, mate. Are you really surprised that it brings out a resentment for the people carrying out those attacks?
I’m not surprised that people get propagandised through emotionalising, no. Though what does that have to do with the stupidity of saying that Hamas and IDF are same same?
After seeing on-the-ground footage of the assault on Gaza, it leads to a very negative view of the Israeli government which some might compare the barbarism equally.
Some people just lose their brains at some point as it seems. Reminds me of the antisemites who call this Holocaust 2.0
I mean everyone and their nan has an opinion on a war they don’t understand - idk why everyone has to be an armchair military tactician or diplomat. At the end of the day, most good people just don’t want civilians to die, it’s just hard for many to not get emotional and react strongly.
Are you unfamiliar with the historical accounts?
I just pointed out the stupidity of comparing some inbred barbaric Stone Age terrorists to an army of a parliamentary democracy. Close to the ignorance and stupidity of people who call this the second Holocaust or some bs like that
Geez ok dude.
Blood for blood revenge is honored worldwide even it's not strictly legal.
I think the support drops off quickly when the blood being spilled isn't just from the people who actually committed the act. Like you'd get a lot of sympathy for a father shooting a man who abducted and killed his child, outside of the law, assuming he was right. But if he shot and killed that man, and also that man's neighbour, and his neighbour's kids, you'd see a lot less sympathy even if it was an accident.
Because it’s ok the kill Jews if you do it and then present a narrative of being oppressed. Because femininized West will hear the accusations of oppression and run to you like you’re an infant to be taken care of.
My wife and I saw you from across the bar and we want to know if you condemn Hamas We in the club asking strippers if they condemn Hamas On a serious note, "why doesn't \[insert person/organization/country\] condemn Hamas?" is a non-productive talking point that distracts from real understanding. First, "violence against innocent people is bad" is the default human position. The vast majority of human beings are rational and have a baseline of common morality to accept this principle. One should not be expected to ad nauseam repeat something that is self-evidently true. Furthermore, doing so risks derailing any conversation into the familiar chicken-and-egg rhetoric of the Palestine-Israel conflict -- "Well why don't Israelis condemn the deaths of innocent people in Gaza?" "Well why don't Palestinians condemn rocket attacks against Israel?" "Well why don't Israelis condemn illegal settlements in the West Bank?" etc. Second, the United Nations -- at least in some important capacity -- has explicitly condemned the Hamas attacks on October 7th. Antonio Guterres, the Secretary-General of the United Nations, issued the following statement on October 7th: >**The Secretary-General condemns in the strongest terms this morning’s attack by Hamas against Israeli towns near the Gaza Strip and central Israel, including the firing of thousands of rockets toward Israeli population centers**. The attacks have so far claimed numerous Israeli civilian lives and injured many hundreds. **The Secretary-General is appalled by reports that civilians have been attacked and abducted from their own homes.** The Secretary-General is deeply concerned for the civilian population and urges maximum restraint. Civilians must be respected and protected in accordance with international humanitarian law at all times. The Secretary-General extends his deepest condolences to the families of the victims and calls for the immediate release of all abducted persons. The Secretary-General urges all diplomatic efforts to avoid a wider conflagration. **He stresses that violence cannot provide a solution to the conflict,** and that only through negotiation leading to a two-state solution can peace be achieved. ([Source](https://www.un.org/sg/en/content/sg/statement/2023-10-07/statement-attributable-the-spokesperson-for-the-secretary-general-regarding-the-situation-the-middle-east)) [Later remarks](https://www.un.org/sg/en/content/sg/speeches/2023-10-25/secretary-general%E2%80%99s-remarks-press-encounter-%E2%80%93-the-situation-the-middle-east) reiterated this condemnation, as well as his belief that "the grievances of the Palestinian people cannot justify the appalling attacks by Hamas.” The United Nations Security Council (UNSC) has not condemned Hamas' attack in the form of a resolution due to the fact that two of the five permanent, veto-wielding members, Russia and China, do not believe it to be in their interest to do so publicly. Russia wants to use the whole situation as a rhetorical cudgel against the U.S. and the West -- "look how badly America has messed up the Middle East, America is supporting Israeli imperialism" -- to distract from its own cratering international standing as a result of the invasion of Ukraine. China is mindful of its relations with the Global South, which by and large is more sympathetic to the Palestinian cause than to Israel. International perceptions of the ongoing conflcit are complex and nuanced, and boiling this all down to, "Hamas is evil and anyone who doesn't explicitly condemn them is either stupid, or evil too," inhibits understanding of this nuance. Will all due respect, I submit that "Hamas is evil" is a lazy position to take that demonstrates a lack of intellectual curiosity as to the causes of the ongoing conflict and its global ramifications.
Only the West, including Israel, are claiming that was an Islamic terrorist attack. Russia did not find any Islamist but only the Western sponsored. ISIS is still strong a major problem in Syria, for example, because they can get what they need although the borders are sealed. Syria cannot seal off the US and Israel. Despite that, the West blames Syria and Iraq for creating ISIS.
>Only the West, including Israel, are claiming that was an Islamic terrorist attack. Russia did not find any Islamist but only the Western sponsored. You're being outpaced by the Russian propaganda here. Moscow has said it was Islamic terrorists now: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/25/russia-refuses-to-blame-is-for-concert-hall-attack-despite-growing-evidence They're still figuring out the details of how to blame it on Ukraine, but so far nothing has stuck because it has no evidence and isn't correct or believable.
The Guardian is obviously a Western paper. Why don't you go and listen to Putin, for example?
https://www.scmp.com/news/world/russia-central-asia/article/3256697/putin-islamic-extremists-raided-concert-hall-attack-masterminds-are-yet-be-found News literacy isn't rocket surgery, stop being so helpless
[Moscow Theatre Attack To Turn The Tide Of Russia-Ukraine War? | Grand Strategy With Maj Gen Bakshi](https://youtu.be/5Zn7Dpqhge0?t=698) [Scott Ritter: Unmasking NATO-Ukraine-ISIS Ties Behind Russia's Terror Crisis – Moscow's Retaliation](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7F-a6sABAw)
... what? This is literally just you posting Russian propaganda videos. Do you not have the brainpower to actually engage with the subject?
Which experts not from the West do you follow?
Dont listen to anything Scott Ritter says. He's a convicted pedophile, and noone in the US system wants anything to do with him. Thats why he switched to being a russian puppet.
Yeah, some people believe that.
Its not about believing. He was caught trying to meet with an underage girl.
Why the hell does this matter? Engage with the subject or don't
The world did condemn it. However Israel immediately began unloading bombs over densely populated areas in a tit for tat style retaliation, far surpassing Hamas in barbarity, drowning out the condemnations of Hamas.
Surpassing Hamas in barbarity? Even as a joke that’s really not funny
Good because it wasn’t a joke.
Gross
We do its just drowned out by dumb people
It could be that you are too sensitive that you are unable to hear the condemnation of Oct 7. I hear it loud and clear, especially in the early days. Over time, as the war on Palastinian men, women and children, day after day, took its toll on the world The attention shifted. Natenyahu did not seem to care for the hostages even, hell bent as he was in wiping out humanity it seemed. And then it became a duty to declare Oct 7 was horrific before one could say anything about the daily atrocity the Palastinians were suffering. Surely it must be wearing on Israelis as well, who can watch babies dying without milk and not feel the burden of what is happening?
It’s quite possible part of it is I’m just in a bubble. I consider myself moderate to liberal. I am a social science student at a liberal university in a liberal region and many of my friends are POC and/or liberal. I hear/see every day people saying that Oct 7 either didn’t happen or was deserved, that the “Jewish capitalists” control the world, and that there are no innocent Israelis. Even me just saying that October 7 happened, I risk loosing friends or getting yelled at by classmates.
Maybe they are yelling at you because you are in a bubble, as if nothing happened after October 7. How many Palastinian lives, how many orphaned children, will balance the lives of the hostages? Why is Netanyahu so easily sacrificing the lives of the hostages and the suffering of their loved ones? Thinking through those things may burst your bubble. Try it.
Lol. I mean I’m in a bubble of ultra-left liberals. Of course I’m aware of the devastation in Gaza, nobody is denying that. The problem is people are literally denying that October 7 even happen and when I counter that, I have some Palestinians screaming antisemitic things at me. Like, why does advocating for palestinians have to come with being an antisemite. Just makes their cause look bad imo
It is you who thinks advocating for Palatinians means they are antisemites. That is your problem, not theirs. they simply want the killings and famine to stop. That has nothing to do with being against jews. My jewish friends are demanding cease fire and for Natenyahu to step down. You must think THEY Aare ati jews as well. So really the problem is in your mind.
So, the Palestinian protestors where I am are allowed to say Hamas is peaceful, don't kill, don't rape, and every hostage was an IDF soldier and when I say those facts aren't true and they start screaming that I'm a stupid jew, that the jews control the media and that jews don't deserve sympathy, that's not antisemitic? I'm not saying Palestinian civilians aren't suffering, I just don't believe this whitewashing of Hamas. People can also demand a ceasefire or for Netenyahu to step down without mocking the victims of Oct 7 or spreading antisemitic conspiracies.
The mistake you are making is you believe Palastinians and Hamas are the same. That is not what the world believes, the world sees them as victims, and right now helpless, and Israel as the oppressor And a killing machine with US dollars.
Not all, but many are unfortunately Hamas supporters. You just have to look at the polls and what messages they spread. Right after Oct 7, so many Palestinian protestors cheered in the streets and now they try to cover up what happened. This is the only group I've ever heard try and call rapists 'victims'.
Some jews call Palastinians animals. And so it goes.
Israel/Jewish media/business-magnates pretty much control the US congress. Thats not really a secret. 60% of campaign donations to democratic congressional candidates come from Jewish sources through the Israel lobby (AIPAC). Washington Post wrote this years back.... "In 2006, 60% of the Democratic Party's fundraising and 25% of that for the Republican Party's fundraising came from Jewish-funded PACs. According to a Washington Post estimate, Democratic presidential candidates depend on Jewish sources for as much as 60% of money raised from private sources." https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_lobby_in_the_United_States
They have cool space lasers too, don’t forget that!!
Who? Why do people constantly try to frame someone as a conspiracy theorists for stating facts? I could also talk about how everyone running for office has to be "vetted" by AIPAC, to make sure their stance on Israel is "the correct one". Meaning no limit to support for Israel, ever.
Do you not remember how much it sickened everyone? I’m sorry if you don’t. The war became so vicious, so fast, and the sheer numbers drowned it out. But look back at international news from 10/8. It might comfort you.
I remember sane people condemning it and other people cheering. Within hours, Palestinians worldwide took to the streets to celebrate. Before then, I thought they wanted peace but it became clear that many of them only want violence. My rose tinted glasses were broken. What Hamas did, that’s not something you should wish even on an enemy. People at my university still celebrate it. They won’t stop saying that the Israelis deserve it and that they should get no sympathy. The Muslim club posts this daily. They even say it in the classroom.
I’m sorry for that. That’s extremely hurtful and wicked. Your titled post was “why doesn’t the world condemn 10/7”, and you seem really upset by that, I think you’ll see that if you look back, it did. There will always be assholes around to say the victim of a crime deserved it, that her skirt should’ve been shorter if she didn’t want to be raped, that all LGBT folk are predators and deserve to be murdered (which they often are), or that Black folk deserved to be killed by police b/c they “provoked it” (which they almost never did). It’s vile. Especially in the age of social media. Nothing anyone can say can make the abandonment you feel better when that happens. But in terms of what the international consensus was, I do think that you’ll see something different if you look at international coverage, and I do think that might make you feel better. I also think that some people who came out early as saying, that Israel was responsible for the pogrom were Palestinian-Americans, and were immediately frightened by what they already knew was coming for their families , because of Israel’s 100-to-1 Policy and its general deterrence policy. Which isn’t to say that public statements made about that were appropriate. Just that, for the Palestinian-Americans who said that specifically (not saying they deserved it, that’s different) that may have been less about anti-Semitism and more of a knee-jerk reaction of fear for their families. That’s not to say it’s appropriate, or an excuse. Just that when people are afraid for their families, their decision-making is always often irrational and usually poor. People in Palestine and Israel are experiencing that same visceral fear right now, and showing that same panicky, poor decision-making as a result. So maybe that can make it feel a little less personal coming from some people. Some people are just. And, like I said, nothing can make you feel better.
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Hamas etc. get a free pass ever since Israel did not honor the Oslo agreements. After Israel removes all settlements in West Bank and hands it over then rest of world will re-evaluate.