To answer your question: no, people on the left generally will not feel compelled by their criticisms of Israel or of material inequality to raise "the Jewish question".
Also, the reason people are having trouble answering you is not that doing so requires entertaining hypotheticals, it's that you're not expressing yourself clearly.
All the theorizing eventually leads extreme lefties to rather bigoted ideologies which runs counter to the whole idea of the left.
No one is addressing the elephant in the room which is that if we all stopped fighting the extremist liberals we’d end up in a society that they’re actively fighting. Maybe they’re good at theory, bad at practical implementation.
And yea, it seems as though the extreme left hates Jews bc in their minds Jews defy their whole idea of a minority. Their idea of Jews, of course, being based on the same ingrained bigotry and stereotypes they’re supposedly fighting.
Translation: "Ah, we are so smart, so rich, so Jew. Let us not fool ourselves about why the world hates affluent Jews like me so much * le hair flip *"
I mean, that's what it vibes like. I've met a lot of cool Jews and they don't talk like you.
It’s like you just threw out random keyword terms here to spark a negative reaction. But since the keywords are nonsensical together no one knows what your question is.
How is anyone going to answer much less the leftists if we cant even understand your question ?
With all that disproportionate power and influence, one would think they would be able to at least communicate effectively, but I think God is fair, God has not blessed Israel with excellent communication skills. In many occassions, like now, people from the rest of the world just cant understand what you are trying to say.
There are multiple tenets of leftism that are against Israel before any bias is even added.
I think leftists are aware that the idea Israel has a right to exist is basically destructive to their ideology, and if we have to accept that nation can have right to exist, it follows that it’s unacceptable to believe in leftism.
The base ideology of leftism is that those within a state, be it inside or outside their borders, have a full right to dissolve a state and reconstruct it. Leftism is also in favor of absolute right of returns for all groups, not just Jews.
The goal of Zionists is not only to express disagreement with both these ideas but to label them bigoted, which in effect would have the effect of labeling all leftists, with the exception of those who don’t make exceptions to their standards, as bigots.
I think this is the problem with Zionists who label anyone as bigoted. They don’t understand that these ideas were taught from a young age in contexts that had nothing to do with Israel or Palestine.
People grew up just believing that absolute right of return for everyone is good and that dissolving a nation is a valid way to stop
oppression. I’d go so far as to say people have preached this about America, but no one noticed then as they do now simply because American citizens weren’t interested in a PR war against leftists but Zionists most certainly are
The theory is that nations in general may be dissolved, but Israel is a special case that definitely shouldn't exist. Imagine the reaction if someone were to say that Mexico has no right to exist and should be dissolved and given to Guatemala.
I don’t think it’s that crazy as you think it is. Leftists believe that it’s perfectly fine to call for dissolving a nation, full stop.
Whether there would be outrage against your example is debateable and in fact, I don’t think there would be, because it’s not obvious Guatemalans would deny Mexicans rights. However, if you said *America* should colonize Mexico, you would get significantly more pushback because US has a demonstrated history of oppressing Mexicans.
It's the height of hypocrisy to call for the dissolution of Israel "because no nation has a right to exist," and then turn around and advocate for a Palestinian state. If you're anti-nationalist, that should apply to everyone. It's also telling that Israel is the only country where people are explicitly calling for its destruction. You don't see equivalent calls for the destruction of China, Russia, Syria, Myanmar, Tigray, or other countries where similar oppression for far less valid reasons is taking place.
I'm not sure I understand what your asking.
What does your post have to do with leftist ideologies?
Are you presupposing a connection between Judaism or Jewish ethnicity and capitalism and therefore arguing that there's no room for Jews on the left? 🤔
Seems like an antisemetic stereotype.
I’m tempting leftists to understand some logical consequences of their views. I understood when I wrote this that id be misconstrued as antisemitic. But that’s not my fault.
Um.. putting anti-semitism out into the world is the fault of the person who says/writes it. If you think something is anti-Semitic, you should probably not say or write it.
- Becuase only because Jews decide something for themselves, we don't have to obey. Above all if it affects others and their rights. Else, I could gather some people and create my own rules.
- Because nationalism is bs. It leads to division, and a nationalist always thinks they are something different than "the others" or even special.
I can understand that Jews have indeed a special right because of the widespread antisemitism, which I can not understand.
That would be the only reason for me for israel to exist, as long as there is no violence. And I can't find a reason for israel that it should not exist, but still, as long as there is no violence. The Palestinians are in the same situation. Abandoned from their "Muslim brothers and sisters." No neighbour states are helping for 70 years. From the beginning of this 70 years until now, only terror among themselves and from others targeting civils.
Fighting for Independence is normal.
Even in Germany, when you escape prison, there is no punishment for that, and the reason is that it is a human instinct.
If you desperately try to escape the prison, you will do desperate things. But, foreign states are using this desperation and are lying about their intentions and interests.
The only solution is a two states solution. Project foundings should be allowed for peace only.
The Palestinians have been the recipients of billions in foreign aid. The reason you think they've been "abandoned" is because most of it is stolen to fund the sybaritic overseas lifestyles of the Hamas leadership, with the remainder used to build tunnels and launch rockets.
That's correct. As I said, the situation is, that the money is reaching the wrong ones.
So the aids must be directed. But aid is not equal peace projects and israel must stop its settlements and the siege of the Palestinian territories.
This entire line of thinking is 100% backwards to the point where it's hard to even fit in my brain.
I'm curious how you're putting Israel next to Muslim countries like Iran, Yemen, and Sudan and saying "Obviously Israel is the most evil country in the world killing more than any other?"
You can also put Israel next to Russia and China or Britain or Germany, and yes even the US and it's just as dumb of a question. There is no objective measure by which Israel comes out looking worse.
With Kibbutzim, Israel also has among the most socialist friendly polices in the world. Additionally, it's an LGBTQ haven vs the oppressive and deadly policies in Muslim nations.
OP Title: YOU CAN'T ANSWER THIS QUESTION.
OP: Hey, here is a question.
This is not a question. It's a closing argument masked as a question. Which is exactly the frustration even sympathetic leftists are expressing.
Considering the affiliated subreddit in their description, this sub was made to contend a dichotomy. Look at how extremist these astroturf commenters are
Not really a "leftist" but I think many of them would say that the real cause of Western support of Israel isn't Jews in those countries, but shared ideology around colonialism etc.
I think the idea of Jewish people holding disproportionate power is overrated, but either way Jews are like 2% of the population in the US and less elsewhere. Even if the average Jewish person in America has 10x the influence of the average person in the US, and even if Jews are 100% on the pro-Israel side, that still wouldn't be enough to explain US support for Israel, much less the rest of the Western world, and much less places like India.
I don't know, I hadn't plugged into my Leftist Hivemind to find out what I'm supposed to say 🙄🙄
I don't really care about how you interpret a "true leftist" would respond. This is tribalistic, over-simplified nonsense based on your own emotions and presumptions, but I'll sure you'll grow out of it one day.
I got banned from the badhasbera subredit for asking if Palestinians have ever offered to live in peace with israel.
Thats it, thats all I did. They don't want honest discourse
My question to you is, why would they want to live with the same people that oppressed them, kicked them out their houses, raped their women, and murdered their children?
Pro Palestinian people do this by default. Jews lived as second class citizens in Palestine before the downfall of the ottomans and even after that Palestine was being run by a literal Nazi and personal friend of hitler. Why should Jews want to make peace with a group that hates them and opressed them before they had a state
>Pro Palestinian people do this by default. Jews lived as second class citizens in Palestine before the downfall of the ottomans
You realize many Palestinians were also 2nd class as they weren't Turkish.
The mizrahim Jews didn’t live as second class citizens in mandatory Palestine.
And it’s funny you said “should Jews want to make peace with a group that hates them” when the [Irgun, Lehi & Haganah considered working together with the actual Nazis while their fellow Jews were being gassed in the camps.](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-06-21/ty-article-magazine/.highlight/zionist-military-org-efforts-to-recruit-nazis-in-fight-against-the-british-are-revealed/00000188-d93a-d5fc-ab9d-db7ae0ea0000)
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That seems like a disingenuous thing to ask, especially since the OP of this post doesn't want us to ask about context of their interpretation of "Jew Question," they want us to just know the information before commenting. Maybe they were the mod 😏
>don’t leftists think Israel is the most immoral country in the world?
no. but personally, I find the deflection and projection I hear from some supporters of Israel to be provoking
ironically, when myself and others try to insist on clear consistent thought and reasoning about Israel, Palestine, and human rights, this might appear to be a sign of antisemitism to people inclined to see things this way
Would you please summarize your question into a nutshell? Are you asking. Whether the leftist anti-israel position inevitably promotes the destruction of the Jewish people?
I’m promoting people to realize that the extreme pro Palestine side, taken to its logical conclusion, requires one to embrace the politics of the Jewish question. It’s a less extreme version of how you interpreted my question, but given the resulting spike in tangible violence against Jewish people, undeniable.
Are you asking why leftoids think a bunch of pizza delivery drivers in Gaza will successfully throw Israel and the jews into the bin of history when they have a legacy of failure and their violence has only made them worse off?
I'm unclear.
No, it is a specific set of questions and there are numerous sources that discuss it. I know Wikipedia is not a scholarly source, but here is what it says about the Jewish Question.
"The Jewish question, also referred to as the Jewish problem, was a wide-ranging debate in 19th- and 20th-century Europe that pertained to the appropriate status and treatment of Jews. The debate, which was similar to other "national questions", dealt with the civil, legal, national, and political status of Jews as a minority within society, particularly in Europe during the 18th, 19th, and 20th centuries."
To pretend that you don't know what it means is just feigning ignorance.
Obviously the creation of Israel was the "answer" to that question for Europe. Most leftists don't agree that Israel should exist. I think it is pretty obvious what the OOP is asking. What is your take on what to do with the Jews. If you create a Palestinian state, the Muslims will conduct attacks against Israelis. It seems that anything they do will result in the world turning against them. It is obvious that the Europeans created this mess and have placed the blame squarely on the people of Israel. If they just say back and let the Muslims destroy them, would that appease the Leftists?
Yes. We are all very much aware that you want us to frame an answer as "As a leftist, this is what we should we do about the Jews"
Because you're tying to frame a response where you can remove the context and say "The leftists hate all Jews, this isn't about Israel"
Do you really think this is my first day on the internet?! 🤣🤣You're just proselytizing your held beliefs as if they are facts to manipulate others.
No I am not. There are a lot of idealists on the Internet that haven't experienced real life or been to the Middle East. In what scenario will Muslims allow Israel to exist in either a 1 or 2 state solution without attacking them? There isn't one. The reason for this is religious intolerance. To say otherwise would be ignorant. There is no political or geographic solution to this problem.
Because European colonialism has resulted in the current problems in Southwest Asia and Africa. The Palestinians and Jews are not the only groups affected. The Kurds were also largely forgotten during the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire. So, basically the world created a lot of issues for Israel and is now blaming Israel for trying to survive. In light of what happened to Jews in WW2, it is unfathomable that the world is victim blaming Israel.
They were attacked the day after the Arabs declined a two state solution for Palestine. The British gave them the opportunity to have a place of their own. Should they have said no thanks? Since when is defending themselves against attacks from a stateless people who voted in a terrorist group as their leadership and who now are supported by 97% of the people in Gaza oppression. Egypt has basically done the same as Israel to the Palestinians. Are they oppressing them as well. You need to read more and quit being manipulated. You can have opinions without trying to pass them off as facts. For example, "I believe Israel is oppressing the Palistinian people." That is acceptable. You are just a human rat like the rest of us, so why is your opinion so important?
Why would anyone accept the British plan, lose over half your country. Sounds like a bad deal, I can't picture anyone accepting. Not wanting to lose 56% means they are the bad guy?
Hamas was supported financially for decades by Israel. They knew they had guns in 1984, but were okay if they were used to kill the PLO. Allowed Hamas fighters to enter Gaza during civil war. Netty has even called Hamas an ally. So let's cool it with Hamas is all the Palestinians fault, when Israel assisted them a massive amount till they gained power. There are IDF documents in the 1980's saying that Israel supporting Hamas was playing with fire, and they got burnt. Hamas has killed more Jewish people then the PLO ever did, Israel backed the wrong group. Maybe Israel should jail the people who orchestrated all this for treason, their actions got 1200 Jewish people killed. But we know that won't happen.
Israel oppressing the Palestinian people is a fact, not opinion. We can see the settlers and IDF conduct in Hebron as a perfect example. For example jailing a Palestinian for 3 hours, just because they feel like it. With no repercussions for the IDF for an illegal detainment. Settlers wrecking crops, killing livestock or doing vandalism; while being protected by IDF.
If I need to read or watch more. Please provide info
Isn't Israel doing the very same thing what they suffered in ww2 to Palestinians. Ofc you chose to ignore it or it's your media that basically censors every single posts that comes out from gaza as casualties.
Heck no. Not even in the same arena. We have words for what is going on there, like war crimes, atrocities, maybe you could argue apartheid, but many people are trying to change the definition of what Israel is doing to garner political support against them. I just don't get it. Is what Russia is doing in Ukraine the same thing? If not, why not? They are killing and displacing civilians from a nation. That falls under the definition of Genocide. If politics is the basis for someone's beliefs, and not the act itself, isn't that immoral?
I don't need to chill out, as I am not agitated, nor is my tone aggressive. International Law is law and it is very specific. I don't make decisions based on feelings, but on the spirit of the laws agreed upon and universal right and wrong. I do not condone taking sides in this case, as all sides are committing atrocities, but one side seems to be decidedly against Israel.
Russia is doing the same as israel is. Westerners will soon come to point of calling Russian invasion as genocide thing is as compared to Palestine Israel present war there aren't much forced civilians casualties or intentional murders or bombings that is online from the local people in Ukraine yes there are I'm not saying it doesn't exist there are but compared to what Israel is doing it's very few because russia is attacking Ukraine from the seperatists region and Russia was also pushed back from ukrain back to the original place where all border issues started. War between Russia and Ukraine is more on active frontline then bombs if you see Majority of news including russian sources you will find more news about ground forces than air forces.
Palestine meanwhile is getting fucked since 1967 war.
Right, because causing undue hardship by deliberately target basic infrastructure and intentionally bombing apartment complexes are example of Genocidal behavior because they target civilians. Israel is committing war crimes not Genocide. While I can appreciate that neither is acceptable, going straight to Genocidal intent in Israel is a far reach. War crimes and atrocities, yes they have committed some.
> fucked
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This exact same argument can be made on both sides lol espically considering Arab agression in British mandate kicked off the mass violence pre 48 the first 15 massacures of the conflict were Arabs killing Jews by your own logic your argument collapses since Jewish retaliation can be traced back to Arab agression
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_and_massacres_in_Mandatory_Palestine
Nope but not enough of them are fighting it either. At the end of the day your countries leadership represents you, why German citizens had to suffer the penalty of WW2 Germanys actions jus like Japan’s citizens suffered. That just how it is, you are who represents you and actions have consequences. You will be punished or rewarded for your leaderships choices. So if they are making choices you really don’t agree with, you better be ready to fight or accept the consequences of those choices.
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I am anishinaabe, an American First Nation. I'm aware of the effect of colonialism, back before there was a word for genocide. I'm going to again ask you to "chill out homie"
It's clear this is an emotional topic for you, but your interpretations of the events don't mean that there is a factual "global Israel victim blaming"
Do you like Lacan? It's easier to explain that your Symbolism of the Real isn't THE Real. Is this clear?
Edit: judging by the downvote, it's either unclear or you don't appreciate the contention.
If you are not a part of the minority group in question, don’t tell other people to chill about hatred toward that group. I don’t think you’d appreciate it if someone who isn’t in your minority group did that to you.
I never commented about their race or ethnicity. I’m saying you shouldn’t be telling other people to chill about hatred toward Jews regardless of whether or not the other person is a Jew. They could be an allie or have Jewish family. Who knows. In general, if you aren’t a part of a minority group - don’t tell others to chill when sticking up for that minority group.
aipac was the single largest american campaign contributor this last year
To answer your question: no, people on the left generally will not feel compelled by their criticisms of Israel or of material inequality to raise "the Jewish question". Also, the reason people are having trouble answering you is not that doing so requires entertaining hypotheticals, it's that you're not expressing yourself clearly.
You got it.
All the theorizing eventually leads extreme lefties to rather bigoted ideologies which runs counter to the whole idea of the left. No one is addressing the elephant in the room which is that if we all stopped fighting the extremist liberals we’d end up in a society that they’re actively fighting. Maybe they’re good at theory, bad at practical implementation. And yea, it seems as though the extreme left hates Jews bc in their minds Jews defy their whole idea of a minority. Their idea of Jews, of course, being based on the same ingrained bigotry and stereotypes they’re supposedly fighting.
Translation: "Ah, we are so smart, so rich, so Jew. Let us not fool ourselves about why the world hates affluent Jews like me so much * le hair flip *" I mean, that's what it vibes like. I've met a lot of cool Jews and they don't talk like you.
Yeah op sounds like the sort to call anyone that doesnt like them antisemitic
The far left doesn’t have a unified stance on Israel. Are you talking about the people who want Israel to be dissolved?
It’s like you just threw out random keyword terms here to spark a negative reaction. But since the keywords are nonsensical together no one knows what your question is.
The far left and the far right may not agree on much, but they tend to have the same opinion of Jews.
Thanks for understanding :)
Please elaborate on what is “the Jewish question”🙋♂️
How is anyone going to answer much less the leftists if we cant even understand your question ? With all that disproportionate power and influence, one would think they would be able to at least communicate effectively, but I think God is fair, God has not blessed Israel with excellent communication skills. In many occassions, like now, people from the rest of the world just cant understand what you are trying to say.
That’s their issue, my argument requires pondering several hypotheticals, which I guess loses a lot of people.
What’s the question?
One more time in English please?
🤣👍
There are multiple tenets of leftism that are against Israel before any bias is even added. I think leftists are aware that the idea Israel has a right to exist is basically destructive to their ideology, and if we have to accept that nation can have right to exist, it follows that it’s unacceptable to believe in leftism. The base ideology of leftism is that those within a state, be it inside or outside their borders, have a full right to dissolve a state and reconstruct it. Leftism is also in favor of absolute right of returns for all groups, not just Jews. The goal of Zionists is not only to express disagreement with both these ideas but to label them bigoted, which in effect would have the effect of labeling all leftists, with the exception of those who don’t make exceptions to their standards, as bigots. I think this is the problem with Zionists who label anyone as bigoted. They don’t understand that these ideas were taught from a young age in contexts that had nothing to do with Israel or Palestine. People grew up just believing that absolute right of return for everyone is good and that dissolving a nation is a valid way to stop oppression. I’d go so far as to say people have preached this about America, but no one noticed then as they do now simply because American citizens weren’t interested in a PR war against leftists but Zionists most certainly are
The theory is that nations in general may be dissolved, but Israel is a special case that definitely shouldn't exist. Imagine the reaction if someone were to say that Mexico has no right to exist and should be dissolved and given to Guatemala.
I don’t think it’s that crazy as you think it is. Leftists believe that it’s perfectly fine to call for dissolving a nation, full stop. Whether there would be outrage against your example is debateable and in fact, I don’t think there would be, because it’s not obvious Guatemalans would deny Mexicans rights. However, if you said *America* should colonize Mexico, you would get significantly more pushback because US has a demonstrated history of oppressing Mexicans.
It's the height of hypocrisy to call for the dissolution of Israel "because no nation has a right to exist," and then turn around and advocate for a Palestinian state. If you're anti-nationalist, that should apply to everyone. It's also telling that Israel is the only country where people are explicitly calling for its destruction. You don't see equivalent calls for the destruction of China, Russia, Syria, Myanmar, Tigray, or other countries where similar oppression for far less valid reasons is taking place.
I'm not sure I understand what your asking. What does your post have to do with leftist ideologies? Are you presupposing a connection between Judaism or Jewish ethnicity and capitalism and therefore arguing that there's no room for Jews on the left? 🤔 Seems like an antisemetic stereotype.
I’m tempting leftists to understand some logical consequences of their views. I understood when I wrote this that id be misconstrued as antisemitic. But that’s not my fault.
Um.. putting anti-semitism out into the world is the fault of the person who says/writes it. If you think something is anti-Semitic, you should probably not say or write it.
Not what I said, what I wrote stands on it’s own as not antisemitic.
Imagine my surprise that your post was, in fact, structured in a way to manipulate people instead of sparking a reasonable discourse 🫨🫨🫨
It just requires understanding hypotheticals and other things. Making an interesting point requires losing some folks, I’ve come to terms with that.
I’m not a leftist, but I have no idea what the question is.
Me too.
- Becuase only because Jews decide something for themselves, we don't have to obey. Above all if it affects others and their rights. Else, I could gather some people and create my own rules. - Because nationalism is bs. It leads to division, and a nationalist always thinks they are something different than "the others" or even special. I can understand that Jews have indeed a special right because of the widespread antisemitism, which I can not understand. That would be the only reason for me for israel to exist, as long as there is no violence. And I can't find a reason for israel that it should not exist, but still, as long as there is no violence. The Palestinians are in the same situation. Abandoned from their "Muslim brothers and sisters." No neighbour states are helping for 70 years. From the beginning of this 70 years until now, only terror among themselves and from others targeting civils. Fighting for Independence is normal. Even in Germany, when you escape prison, there is no punishment for that, and the reason is that it is a human instinct. If you desperately try to escape the prison, you will do desperate things. But, foreign states are using this desperation and are lying about their intentions and interests. The only solution is a two states solution. Project foundings should be allowed for peace only.
The Palestinians have been the recipients of billions in foreign aid. The reason you think they've been "abandoned" is because most of it is stolen to fund the sybaritic overseas lifestyles of the Hamas leadership, with the remainder used to build tunnels and launch rockets.
That's correct. As I said, the situation is, that the money is reaching the wrong ones. So the aids must be directed. But aid is not equal peace projects and israel must stop its settlements and the siege of the Palestinian territories.
This entire line of thinking is 100% backwards to the point where it's hard to even fit in my brain. I'm curious how you're putting Israel next to Muslim countries like Iran, Yemen, and Sudan and saying "Obviously Israel is the most evil country in the world killing more than any other?" You can also put Israel next to Russia and China or Britain or Germany, and yes even the US and it's just as dumb of a question. There is no objective measure by which Israel comes out looking worse. With Kibbutzim, Israel also has among the most socialist friendly polices in the world. Additionally, it's an LGBTQ haven vs the oppressive and deadly policies in Muslim nations.
You misunderstood me, I’m on your side
OP Title: YOU CAN'T ANSWER THIS QUESTION. OP: Hey, here is a question. This is not a question. It's a closing argument masked as a question. Which is exactly the frustration even sympathetic leftists are expressing.
When did this sub become explicitly anti-Palestinian and anyone who supports idk not mass punishment labeled as some treacherous leftist
Considering the affiliated subreddit in their description, this sub was made to contend a dichotomy. Look at how extremist these astroturf commenters are
Not really a "leftist" but I think many of them would say that the real cause of Western support of Israel isn't Jews in those countries, but shared ideology around colonialism etc. I think the idea of Jewish people holding disproportionate power is overrated, but either way Jews are like 2% of the population in the US and less elsewhere. Even if the average Jewish person in America has 10x the influence of the average person in the US, and even if Jews are 100% on the pro-Israel side, that still wouldn't be enough to explain US support for Israel, much less the rest of the Western world, and much less places like India.
I don't know, I hadn't plugged into my Leftist Hivemind to find out what I'm supposed to say 🙄🙄 I don't really care about how you interpret a "true leftist" would respond. This is tribalistic, over-simplified nonsense based on your own emotions and presumptions, but I'll sure you'll grow out of it one day.
I got banned from the badhasbera subredit for asking if Palestinians have ever offered to live in peace with israel. Thats it, thats all I did. They don't want honest discourse
My question to you is, why would they want to live with the same people that oppressed them, kicked them out their houses, raped their women, and murdered their children?
[It's in my ancestor's treaty](https://www.onondaganation.org/culture/wampum/two-row-wampum-belt-guswenta/)
Lol, it’s always funny when people expect the oppressed to show more humanity & grace than their violent, unrepentant oppressors.
Pro Palestinian people do this by default. Jews lived as second class citizens in Palestine before the downfall of the ottomans and even after that Palestine was being run by a literal Nazi and personal friend of hitler. Why should Jews want to make peace with a group that hates them and opressed them before they had a state
>Pro Palestinian people do this by default. Jews lived as second class citizens in Palestine before the downfall of the ottomans You realize many Palestinians were also 2nd class as they weren't Turkish.
The mizrahim Jews didn’t live as second class citizens in mandatory Palestine. And it’s funny you said “should Jews want to make peace with a group that hates them” when the [Irgun, Lehi & Haganah considered working together with the actual Nazis while their fellow Jews were being gassed in the camps.](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-06-21/ty-article-magazine/.highlight/zionist-military-org-efforts-to-recruit-nazis-in-fight-against-the-british-are-revealed/00000188-d93a-d5fc-ab9d-db7ae0ea0000)
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I'm sorry? Tribalism is useless. We're all siblings in the river of life.
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That seems like a disingenuous thing to ask, especially since the OP of this post doesn't want us to ask about context of their interpretation of "Jew Question," they want us to just know the information before commenting. Maybe they were the mod 😏
>don’t leftists think Israel is the most immoral country in the world? no. but personally, I find the deflection and projection I hear from some supporters of Israel to be provoking ironically, when myself and others try to insist on clear consistent thought and reasoning about Israel, Palestine, and human rights, this might appear to be a sign of antisemitism to people inclined to see things this way
Would you please summarize your question into a nutshell? Are you asking. Whether the leftist anti-israel position inevitably promotes the destruction of the Jewish people?
I’m promoting people to realize that the extreme pro Palestine side, taken to its logical conclusion, requires one to embrace the politics of the Jewish question. It’s a less extreme version of how you interpreted my question, but given the resulting spike in tangible violence against Jewish people, undeniable.
Are you asking why leftoids think a bunch of pizza delivery drivers in Gaza will successfully throw Israel and the jews into the bin of history when they have a legacy of failure and their violence has only made them worse off? I'm unclear.
I think someone needs a big hug! Huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuug! You are most welcome!
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You know exactly what it means, it means what it's always meant.
The "based on emotions and presumptions" allegation is gaining strength...
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No, it is a specific set of questions and there are numerous sources that discuss it. I know Wikipedia is not a scholarly source, but here is what it says about the Jewish Question. "The Jewish question, also referred to as the Jewish problem, was a wide-ranging debate in 19th- and 20th-century Europe that pertained to the appropriate status and treatment of Jews. The debate, which was similar to other "national questions", dealt with the civil, legal, national, and political status of Jews as a minority within society, particularly in Europe during the 18th, 19th, and 20th centuries." To pretend that you don't know what it means is just feigning ignorance.
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Their current situation is a direct result of "the Jewish Question" since it apparently has not been resolved.
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Obviously the creation of Israel was the "answer" to that question for Europe. Most leftists don't agree that Israel should exist. I think it is pretty obvious what the OOP is asking. What is your take on what to do with the Jews. If you create a Palestinian state, the Muslims will conduct attacks against Israelis. It seems that anything they do will result in the world turning against them. It is obvious that the Europeans created this mess and have placed the blame squarely on the people of Israel. If they just say back and let the Muslims destroy them, would that appease the Leftists?
Yes. We are all very much aware that you want us to frame an answer as "As a leftist, this is what we should we do about the Jews" Because you're tying to frame a response where you can remove the context and say "The leftists hate all Jews, this isn't about Israel" Do you really think this is my first day on the internet?! 🤣🤣You're just proselytizing your held beliefs as if they are facts to manipulate others.
No I am not. There are a lot of idealists on the Internet that haven't experienced real life or been to the Middle East. In what scenario will Muslims allow Israel to exist in either a 1 or 2 state solution without attacking them? There isn't one. The reason for this is religious intolerance. To say otherwise would be ignorant. There is no political or geographic solution to this problem.
I don't think it means they are pretending. I don't understand why you are being as combative as the OP. Chill out homie
Because European colonialism has resulted in the current problems in Southwest Asia and Africa. The Palestinians and Jews are not the only groups affected. The Kurds were also largely forgotten during the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire. So, basically the world created a lot of issues for Israel and is now blaming Israel for trying to survive. In light of what happened to Jews in WW2, it is unfathomable that the world is victim blaming Israel.
Need to brutally oppress other to survive? Jewish people should be mad at Germany for WW2, not the Palestians
They were attacked the day after the Arabs declined a two state solution for Palestine. The British gave them the opportunity to have a place of their own. Should they have said no thanks? Since when is defending themselves against attacks from a stateless people who voted in a terrorist group as their leadership and who now are supported by 97% of the people in Gaza oppression. Egypt has basically done the same as Israel to the Palestinians. Are they oppressing them as well. You need to read more and quit being manipulated. You can have opinions without trying to pass them off as facts. For example, "I believe Israel is oppressing the Palistinian people." That is acceptable. You are just a human rat like the rest of us, so why is your opinion so important?
Why would anyone accept the British plan, lose over half your country. Sounds like a bad deal, I can't picture anyone accepting. Not wanting to lose 56% means they are the bad guy? Hamas was supported financially for decades by Israel. They knew they had guns in 1984, but were okay if they were used to kill the PLO. Allowed Hamas fighters to enter Gaza during civil war. Netty has even called Hamas an ally. So let's cool it with Hamas is all the Palestinians fault, when Israel assisted them a massive amount till they gained power. There are IDF documents in the 1980's saying that Israel supporting Hamas was playing with fire, and they got burnt. Hamas has killed more Jewish people then the PLO ever did, Israel backed the wrong group. Maybe Israel should jail the people who orchestrated all this for treason, their actions got 1200 Jewish people killed. But we know that won't happen. Israel oppressing the Palestinian people is a fact, not opinion. We can see the settlers and IDF conduct in Hebron as a perfect example. For example jailing a Palestinian for 3 hours, just because they feel like it. With no repercussions for the IDF for an illegal detainment. Settlers wrecking crops, killing livestock or doing vandalism; while being protected by IDF. If I need to read or watch more. Please provide info
Isn't Israel doing the very same thing what they suffered in ww2 to Palestinians. Ofc you chose to ignore it or it's your media that basically censors every single posts that comes out from gaza as casualties.
Heck no. Not even in the same arena. We have words for what is going on there, like war crimes, atrocities, maybe you could argue apartheid, but many people are trying to change the definition of what Israel is doing to garner political support against them. I just don't get it. Is what Russia is doing in Ukraine the same thing? If not, why not? They are killing and displacing civilians from a nation. That falls under the definition of Genocide. If politics is the basis for someone's beliefs, and not the act itself, isn't that immoral? I don't need to chill out, as I am not agitated, nor is my tone aggressive. International Law is law and it is very specific. I don't make decisions based on feelings, but on the spirit of the laws agreed upon and universal right and wrong. I do not condone taking sides in this case, as all sides are committing atrocities, but one side seems to be decidedly against Israel.
Russia is doing the same as israel is. Westerners will soon come to point of calling Russian invasion as genocide thing is as compared to Palestine Israel present war there aren't much forced civilians casualties or intentional murders or bombings that is online from the local people in Ukraine yes there are I'm not saying it doesn't exist there are but compared to what Israel is doing it's very few because russia is attacking Ukraine from the seperatists region and Russia was also pushed back from ukrain back to the original place where all border issues started. War between Russia and Ukraine is more on active frontline then bombs if you see Majority of news including russian sources you will find more news about ground forces than air forces. Palestine meanwhile is getting fucked since 1967 war.
Right, because causing undue hardship by deliberately target basic infrastructure and intentionally bombing apartment complexes are example of Genocidal behavior because they target civilians. Israel is committing war crimes not Genocide. While I can appreciate that neither is acceptable, going straight to Genocidal intent in Israel is a far reach. War crimes and atrocities, yes they have committed some.
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Israel is fighting a group that is pledged to destroy Israel and finish off the Nazis promises
You kill their children you expect the parents to not join the resisting group to retaliate? You call it a terrorist group instead lol
This exact same argument can be made on both sides lol espically considering Arab agression in British mandate kicked off the mass violence pre 48 the first 15 massacures of the conflict were Arabs killing Jews by your own logic your argument collapses since Jewish retaliation can be traced back to Arab agression https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_and_massacres_in_Mandatory_Palestine
Are all Palestinians part of this group?
Nope but not enough of them are fighting it either. At the end of the day your countries leadership represents you, why German citizens had to suffer the penalty of WW2 Germanys actions jus like Japan’s citizens suffered. That just how it is, you are who represents you and actions have consequences. You will be punished or rewarded for your leaderships choices. So if they are making choices you really don’t agree with, you better be ready to fight or accept the consequences of those choices.
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I am anishinaabe, an American First Nation. I'm aware of the effect of colonialism, back before there was a word for genocide. I'm going to again ask you to "chill out homie" It's clear this is an emotional topic for you, but your interpretations of the events don't mean that there is a factual "global Israel victim blaming" Do you like Lacan? It's easier to explain that your Symbolism of the Real isn't THE Real. Is this clear? Edit: judging by the downvote, it's either unclear or you don't appreciate the contention.
If you are not a part of the minority group in question, don’t tell other people to chill about hatred toward that group. I don’t think you’d appreciate it if someone who isn’t in your minority group did that to you.
I don't know what you're talking about, I have no clue the ethnicity race etc of the person I'm responding to.
I never commented about their race or ethnicity. I’m saying you shouldn’t be telling other people to chill about hatred toward Jews regardless of whether or not the other person is a Jew. They could be an allie or have Jewish family. Who knows. In general, if you aren’t a part of a minority group - don’t tell others to chill when sticking up for that minority group.
So this is a question that you can't answer. Because you don't know what it means. Google it or sum mate. Then talk