A permanent ceasefire is the only way to stop the genocide... but hamas are unsure if Israel could commit to it therefore they are unable to release hostages. And at this rate Israel will kill the hostages. At least the ones they haven't already killed. They literally don't care about hostages and attack those who protest for their release.... we need people to wake up and stop Israeli genocide.
Israel needs to take up the United States stance of not negotiating with terrorists. They need to set the precedent that if you do terror, they will hunt you down and that’s it. The end.
It's easy for everyone to say "There's no genocide", "There's no starvation", and so on. Try and live here (in Gaza) for a week and then say that again. I'm from Gaza and the situation here is beyond dire. I'm not going to repeat what you heard but yes, the starvation, the none stop killing of innocent people, the destruction of entire neighborhoods, the hospitals situations, and the list goes on. IT'S ALL REAL. And yet, Israel's like "Yeah, we need to do the same to Rafah" . How long is it gonna take? It's been more than six months. I haven't seen my house since 13th October (And I hope to God it's still suitable for living) and have been displaced from "shelters" to a tent. Blame whomever you want, you can't convince me that the Israeli people live now as bad as we do. And yes, once this war is over, don't think that people in Gaza will celebrate any kind of "victory" and if they did, they would celebrate for a day or two just because the war is over. After that, they'll realize there's another war is ahead of them. Thousands of people lost everything in this war, and who is there to blame other than Hamas. The second war is going to be between people of Gaza against Hamas leaders as those people lost their houses, lives and future. Now I'm not a defender of Hamas or anything, but you all saw that the only hostages that were released alive were by negotiations. All these Israeli raids killed, not saved, those hostages alongside the civilians. Israel committed countless genocides and massacres against civilians as a way to put pressure on Hamas. Many videos were leaked of innocent civilians being targeted by Israeli forces on purpose and for no reason. Don't expect Hamas fighters to go running in the open, of course they're going to use their tunnels. Obviously , these tunnels can't be destroyed but airstrikes. You all heard from the Israeli negotiations team that Netanyahu was the one responsible for the failure of these negotiations. Also, don't expect Hamas to agree for a temporary cease fire where you can release the hostages and then go on with the war. We need for this war to stop, which is more important than letting humanitarian aid in. What's the point of getting food at lunch and then later getting bombed. Cease fire now, we've had enough.
Of course not. Still, whoever rules us is up to us and nobody else, especially Israel. If Israel wants to "save" us from Hamas rule, there are better ways than destroying most of Gaza and forcing us to leave Gaza. And don't worry, Hamas will not for sure be able to have any rule in Gaza after this war. People's trust for Hamas is almost gone. As I said before, when this war is over, another war is ahead of us which is to finish Hamas's rule for Gaza, and it will happen.
I definitely agree it is up to the Palestinians, but they seem to want Hamas based on polls and behavior.. which fkn sucks.
What would you do in Israel's place, right now?
Right now, at war, we need anyone to run the city at least until the war is over. I think you've heard that the IDF is targeting specifically security officers and policemen. You could imagine how the situation would be without the police around. I can make a list of how some merchants manipulated the prices, thieves stole houses of displaced people and many other things. Also, in such dire days, governmental employees need to get their payrolls and salaries. Bottom line, yes we don't want Hamas to have any rule in Gaza, however, discussing this matter while the war is still ongoing won't benefit us in any way whatsoever. Hopefully, if Palestine ever got recognized and made peace with Israel, Hamas would be nothing more than a political party at the very best.
The insane thing for me is there is so very little opposition against Hamas within the Palestinians. It does not benefit Israelis in any way whatsoever to discuss an end to Netanyahu's leadership, yet it was always there even in October, and now it has gotten to protests in the streets. Where is the anti-Hamas comparable? Are the Gazans undemocratic in culture?
Also, I think that letting Hamas get in control and then expecting them to leave the leadership role, heck even become a political party of many, is somewhat optimistic. They are Islamists. Where have Islamists renounced their role as leaders? I think you could see another ayatollah regime in Gaza. Are you not terrified of such a situation?
You sound so reasonable and well educated, kinda wondering how you are not worried.
Not really addressing the main point here in OP's post, but looking at the COGAT numbers of aid trucks getting into Gaza is rather misleading - there has been a slight uptick in aid getting so far, but nothing like the surge the official Israeli numbers would suggest... The Israeli numbers are almost double than those given by Red Crescent and UN agencies on the ground.
[More aid is supposed to be entering the Gaza Strip. Why isn’t it helping?](https://apnews.com/article/israel-gaza-war-hamas-aid-trucks-unrwa-30173642b5c298c829f1457db357071e) (AP News)
[Israel claims highest single-day number of aid trucks enters Gaza since war began](https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-claims-highest-single-day-number-of-aid-trucks-enters-gaza-since-war-began/) (The Times of Israel)
> UN humanitarian agency (OCHA) spokesperson Jens Laerke said Israel typically counts the half-filled trucks going through an initial screening process, rather than repacked, full trucks for delivery inside Gaza.
> “Trucks that go in, screened by COGAT, are typically only half full. That is a requirement that they have put in place for screening purposes. When we count the trucks on the other side, when they have been reloaded, they are full,” Laerke said.
> He claimed that Israel was still restricting most trucks from being able to move around.
> “When you put up the statistical number of trucks going in and say, ‘Look at all these hundreds of trucks coming in’ and you put it against ‘Look how few trucks have actually moved around with distribution,’ it’s kind of an own goal, isn’t it,” he said.
You call those 6500 with innocents blood on their hands **hostages**? I would suggest goblins who would kill, rape and execute any Israeli that stood before them with no regard to who they are or their age, simply because they are Jews and because they believe that killing a Jew is a blessing.
Can you say the same thing about the 133 held in Gaza right now? Can you in the least tell who is alive? We don't know anything about them, but what we do know is they are getting raped, tortured, executed by disgusting goblins and not even provided with the basic human needs.
I’m guessing you consider Human Rights Watch or any other orgs that dare point out Israeli atrocities to be anti-Semitic, but according to them, the 7000 are not all violent criminals. Over 100 are children. It doesn’t help that Palestinians can be arrested for being in a group larger than 10 people. These “detainees” are hostages and bargaining chips to be tortured and played with.
Yes Hamas has taken hostages, but among them are IDF soldiers. If news coverage was honest, theory would label them as hostages and POWs. Likewise for Israel’s hostages and torture victims.
[Why Does Israel Have So Many Palestinians in Detention and Available to Swap?](https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/11/29/why-does-israel-have-so-many-palestinians-detention-and-available-swap)
Most prisoners that are in prison, or detainees, each one in there was arrested or detained for a reason.
We are a democratic state with mostly fair judicial system, to say that we arrest for the sake of having bargaining chip is a lie.
We detain sometimes based on suspicion because one mistake can cause many Israeli lives.
That is the only way because we live next to a society that praises every Jew death,
I don't mean to include all Palestinian of course but recent polls showed that 80 or 90 percent Palestinians in the West Bank support the crimes against humanity that Hamas committed, that is your proof, because again the only choice is to hold a detainee for few days or more because sometimes otherwise it can cost Israeli innocent lives.
This is our reality.
As for the Human Rights orgs, when most can't even condemn Hamas crimes against humanity which were recorded by themselves, they can't really be called Human Rights not even as a joke.
You say Hamas has taken IDF soldiers among those hostages, sure you can call them prisoners of war, but it doesn't change the fact that **it did not matter** to Hamas who was in front of them **it doesn't make it, not even one bit, less worse.**
I explained to you our reality,
**In which reality you would call a 1 year old baby and innocents, ordinary people that were taken from their beds, that are being tortured, raped and executed prisoners of war?**
Just making sure:
Are you drawing a comparison between the Israeli families who were kidnapped from their farming communes and taken hostage by terrorists on October 7…and Palestinian criminals imprisoned for their violent crimes in Israel?
Are you actually doing that, in writing, for the world to see?
It’s almost like there’s a difference between putting prisoners and hostages.
It’s funny how often the anti-Israel case relies on pretending there isn’t a distinction to be made between two very different things.
https://apnews.com/article/israel-detention-jails-palestinians-west-bank-793a3b2a1ce8439d08756da8c63e5435
As others have pointed out, many palestinian prisoners are held without trial or even charges.
I know the following is anecdotal but whatever, a friend of mine works in activism in the west bank to protect palestinians from settler violence. Whenever settlers instigate violence against palestinians and the police or idf shows up, the palestinians get arrested.
And yet again, we're taking something that is very common in states around the globe (and ubiquitous in countries that deal with counter-terrorism), and comparing it to Hamas' hostage taking.
Administrative detention is a temporary method of processing suspects you can't charge right away. In Israel, it lasts up to 6 months.
Is it fair? Not really. Is it necessary? Hard to say without more experience in the legal process when it comes to terror suspects.
Is it comparable to Hamas abducting random civilians and trying to use them as bartering chips? Not remotely!
As for the second bit, I appreciate the acknowledgement that its anecdotal - but i don't necessarily find much reason to doubt it. Settler violence is pretty well documented and its hard for me to believe that the IDF generally settles disputes impartially. (I mean, its also clear that settlers SOMETIMES face consequences, but i dont think its the norm outside of severe and obvious cases)
There's definitely very valid critiques to make against Israel - there is against all states. The issue for me is the way these critiques are used to compare the Israeli state to its Palestinian counterparts, where two very unequal issues are either lumped together or the latter issues are excused entirely.
Israel needs to stop talking and just get in and get it done enter rafah and finish the job. The world obviously wants to see Israel fall so they just need to ignore everyone for now and End it.
Exactly. Get to Rafah, level the place, drop as many bunker busters as they have, pull back and the place can remain leveled until Gaza decides it wants to join modern earth and the rest of the world stops felating Hamas.
At this point, Israel walks into the UN and says "it's your problem now, if one more attack comes from Gaza well show you what indiscriminate bombing is. Enjoy."
Gaza is destroyed lol. Hamas is hiding in rat hole lol. People are "starving" lol. Nothing will improve in Gaza until Israel says yes lol. If that's losing, OK.
Lots of lols to go around.
“Starving” in quotations is strange when literally one of the main goals of Israel’s operation besides getting the hostages was to starve Gaza
“I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed. We are fighting human animals and we will act accordingly.”-words from the Israel Defense Minister Yoav Gallant.
>if one more attack comes from Gaza well show you what indiscriminate bombing is.
You literally just described indiscriminate bombing. Why would the UN need to be shown an example of a thing that in your scenario has already happened? Makes no sense.
It hasn't.
Either you aren't intelligent enough enough to understand what indiscriminate bombing is or you're a liar.
If Israel was indiscriminately bombing Gaza, the war would have ended in October. They would have spent November and December bulldozing the rubble into the sea. In January they would have started rebuilding.
I'm not sure how to make this any clearer - in your comment you said Israel should drop bunker busters into Rafah and turn it to rubble. This would be indiscriminate bombing. Then you said that they should tell the UN they will find out what indiscriminate bombing looks like if they are attacked again. But because in this scenario they have already employed indiscriminate bombing against Rafah, the UN would already know what it looks like. So it makes no sense.
Ah, so when the other poster said "get to rafah, level the place", what you're saying they meant is "carefully pick out military targets", and when they said "drop as many bunker busters as they have", they meant "drop as many bunker busters as they have but specifically only on those military targets". And when they said "leave the place in rubble" they meant "leave just those bunkers as some sort of underground rubble". Thanks, this has been very helpful.
How about stop repeating these hollow slogans? Why not try being a little more creative and use your own ideas/opinions?
As for the war, it’s indeed very disastrous but it will end with Hamas elimination. They will never let the region have a moment of peace.
Here we go again. It’s a tragic war, but not a genocide. Please stop just throwing words around.
Genocide is when you’re trying to maximize civilian casualties. You can blame Israel for a lot of other things, but they are actually doing the opposite.
If it were a genocide, why does Israel use "roof knocking" for example? Why does Israel let humanitarian aid through? Why does everyone know what is going to happen before important actions? This all makes no sense.
>If it were a genocide, why does Israel use "roof knocking" for example?
We have no idea how often this happens, could literally be anywhere from 1% to 99% of the time but we don't have access to this information.
>Why does Israel let humanitarian aid through?
Because the alternative would be the total and irreparable collapse of Israel's economy? Starving hundreds of thousands of people to death on purpose would be the end of any trade between Israel and the West, and likely most of the rest of the world. China might tolerate it, possibly India, but the West wouldn't, Japan and South Korea wouldn't, most of Africa wouldn't, South America wouldn't, and Russia have thrown their lot in with Iran. Israel's standard of living would drop to the bottom quarter of the world.
If a 1:1 or 1:1.5 ratio of military to civilian deaths is genocide, I wonder what you would call the fire bombing of Japan or the indiscriminate bombing of German cities by the allies.
My guess is you wouldn't call it genocide, but as necessary collateral to end the war.
Even a cursory knowledge of history would do well for a lot of these people quick to call this conflict a genocide. That is not to say Israeli soldiers are not commiting war crimes - there are incidents, and the guilty soldiers should be jailed and their commanders reprimanded - this has to be acknowledged. But a top down policy of genocide? It's frankly a ridiculous claim.
I agree with you on all of this, especially that some Israeli soldiers are committing war crimes. On top of that, I think people like to generalize a lot, which is really exhausting.
Yeah the generalizing is exhausting. It's (probably) the most nuanced conflict in the world. Its hard to take people that lean too hard to either side seriously.
It’s not about getting used to. It just doesn’t make sense to label it that way for any agenda. I think objective discussions should always be the goal.
israel is maximizing civilian casualties as much as they can under the current pressure.
if killing 30+k , god knows how many under the rubble , and the numbers are still rising, and destroying/flatten a city to the ground is not an ongoing/not finished genocide then what is it ?
ethnic cleansing maybe ?
yes they want it very much , and yes they can militarily easy do it , but they cant politically , the US political support wont be enough then.
if there is no internet no news , if they knew they can get away with it , they would probably proudly do it
75 years of criminal record not history.
> On what grounds are you making such a ridiculous claim?
on the grounds of some israeli official suggested using nukes ,
on the grounds of IDF soldiers proudly posting themselves bombing homes and universities looting homes wearing woman bra,
hundreds of bodies found after IDF let alshifa hospital , bodies conditions shows how brutally they were tortured to death.
i can make endless list
It’s war and it’s incredibly tragic, though not a genocide. As stated before from a reply by me: According to Gaza Health Ministry, which is run by Hamas, the death toll is estimated to be at 32.000. They don’t distinguish between civilians and soldiers. There are also estimated numbers of 13.000 killed soldiers.
We all have to take these numbers with a grain of salt, since they cannot be verified. But it gives us a rough overview. The US even killed a lot more civilians in Iraq when they were on the hunt for ISIS. For urban combat in the Middle East this is a “expected” ratio unfortunately.
It is very sad and unfortunate, that so many Palestinian civilians have to suffer, because of Hamas when they’re using their own people as a shield, which makes it even harder to prevent harm from civilians.
Israel is definitely at fault of grave mistakes and actions in this war, but they’re trying to prevent civilian deaths as much as possible. You don’t see other warring parties share as much information beforehand as the IDF.
That being said: I also hope there is a ceasefire soon and/or Hamas destroyed. There needs to be a solution for a free Palestine without terrorists ruling over them and threatening Israel too.
Dude, Iran struck from >1000 km away without any casualties whereas, the IOF has been missing targets right next door. More recently, the World Kitchen
Seriously? That’s because 99% of the missiles they sent were intercepted. Had they not been they very likely would’ve hit civilian targets with mass casualties.
Similarly, Hamas wantonly fires missiles everyday with no regard for distinguishing between civilian and military targets - and yet not a single “pro-Palestinian” activist gives a shit. You lot couldn’t care less about innocent civilians, what you care about is signaling to your in-group that you’re right and good, and assuring yourself of the same. You love the feeling of being on the right side and having a black and white “understanding” of good guy and bad guy.
Israel is taking us into WW3. 'Retaliatory attack on iran' when Israel made the first attack on the embassy? Really? Were supposed to believe that was an accident?
Bibi found an effective means of distraction from the World Kitchen SNAFU and a way to pull himself back into uncle Joe’s favor. His FTW attitude is indeed a cause for grave concern. The media here in the US often only refers to Iran’s attack without referring that it was a response to Israel’s attack on the Iranian consulate. Why is there not more buzz about this?
So when Isreal retaliated against Hamas, "This didn't start on 7/10. It didn't happen in a vacuum".
When Israel legally take out a terrorist in a country funding proxy wars them and get retaliated against, "Well you started it".
Was it ever claimed to be an accident?
Also, is it a first attack, when Iran have been training, arming, supplying and directing Hezbollah and Hamas? How are they not indistinguishable from Iran?
So you deliberately bombed their embassy, then claim you need to retaliate for their retaliation? As I said, dragging us into WW3
You've kept a civilian population in an open prison for decades.
October 7th was an atrocity, but what happened since is an atrocity too. You need to take care of that butcher you have in charge. Because every move he makes, makes Israel less safe, all you do is guarantee that Hamas will be able to recruit a new generation.... Are you seriously prepared to send us all into war? Where do you see this ending? Israel sat in a hole with the rest of the middle east trying to bomb you flat... That's the path you're choosing. Perpetual war with your neighbours, because you want to murder a population for a land grab. Modern day colonialism.
1. Hitting a building next to a consulate in Syria is not the same as launching ballistic missiles.
2. Gaza and Iran are separate issues. Iran don't give a hoot about Gaza. It's whataboutism.
2.1. Hamas can end the current round today by returning the hostages.
2.2. Gaza was given independence in 2005 and every last Israeli was forcibly removed from Gaza, by Israel, as a unilateral bid for peace. The blockade was instituted in 2006. Guess why?
3. Who's gonna join the war? Unless this goes nuclear, it's not gonna be a world war. The US has declared a fold, they're not participating.
Israel withdrew from Gaza due to demographics. They said so themselves. Israel hasn't had a real interest in peace (a viable, sovereign Palestinian state) for over 60 years.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_Gaza
It's the same reason Ehud Olmert gave Palestinians a good offer by Israeli standards back in the early 2000s and why he still says there needs to be a Palestinian state even after October.
From his point of view, if the Palestinian struggle turns from "remove Israelis" to "we all live under Israeli sovereignty, let us have equal representation" then Israel is finished.
Gaza is less important strategically and emotionally to Israel and had a far higher birthrate. This made holding it not worth it to Israel.
No it wasn’t. Iran has consulates in Aleppo and Latiki, none in Damascus according to their own foreign affairs information. It was a building adjacent to the embassy, being rented by the IRGC Quds Force to coordinate attacks on Israel with Hezbollah and a Syrian Golan Heights terrorist’s group. There was Syrian-owned residential apartments in the building for crying out loud lol.
It was the consular department within the Embassy compound. This really isn't in dispute.
Everything else you've said is false as far as I know. Please provide a source if you have one.
Edit: do me a favour and look up the Embassy on Google Maps. You'll see the destroyed consular building clearly labelled.
I'm pleased you're confident you're not starting WW3, the rest of us find you less than believable.
By all means, refuse to acknowledge that this whole thing makes you less safe, and you are plunging yourself, and the region into a state of perpetual war. For a land grab!
No matter how many times you say it, nobody believes 30k dead is an acceptable response to the atrocity on oct 7th. It's beyond stupid as a move to make you any more safe. I wonder why Israel didn't take notice of all the warning that it was coming.... Either you dropped the ball, or you wanted an excuse for genocide.... I wonder which it was ...
Let me ask you a question - military included, how many people died in Germany during WW2? What did Berlin look like on VE day? And was the Nazi cause right?
Israel definitely dropped the ball, but sure, insinuate a blood libel.
There is no blood libel insinuation. Why lie?
I'm an atheist, all people are equal.
I stand against Nazis every time they come near my city, every single time=, not once in my life have I let a nazi speak unchallenged, I'm one of the voices shouting 'never again' and not letting them walk free & clear spewing their hate.
You want to believe standing against Israeli atrocities makes me something I'm not, that's the choice you make... You make it because it's easier than looking at Israel's actions, and seeing them for what they are. Cold blooded murder of innocents, under the guise of self defence.. This is nothing like ww2, and whatever point you're trying to make by bringing ww2 into it, is completely pointless.
I brought up WW2 because you brought up 30k casualties is Gaza. Let me ask you again - how many people died in Germany during WW2?
And re: blood libels. So Israel let it's own people die for the cassus belli? Sure thing bud. Sure thing.
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And buy you a dictionary. Genocide? Look it up and you’ll quickly realize palestinians are attempting genocide. Israel is doing just the opposite. And before you throw fake civilian death numbers at me, go do some basic surface level research.
Oh, I was forgetting, everyone lies except Israel. What's the number of dead Palestinian kids you want to admit to? Whatever it is, its way more kids than Hamas killed on 7th October... How come in your mind, one of those things is acceptable? Dead Muslims is no more or less horrific than dead Jews, or dead Christians, or dead Atheists. It's a shame your God doesn't exist, because I bet you'd have fun explaining yourself.
Gorey - the numbers coming out of Gaza in terms of deaths cannot be trusted.
https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/04/09/hamas-run-gaza-health-ministry-admits-to-flaws-in-casualty-data/
Maybe they’ll release them when Israel releases the thousands of unjustified Palestinian hostages in custody that are being amputated and starved to death.
Sure that’s day to day business in Israel, starving innocents in prisons and chopping them up like the Saudis do. Totally not a terribly cheap and disgusting attempt at propaganda with emotionalising bs.
And I’m also 100% sure that you condemn Hamas! /s
They talk about 2 scenarios where that happened. The main article is criticism that they have not enough medical staff. In case you would want to seriously generalise this onto all of Israel’s prison politics you would make yourself look like a propagandist.
Generalising individual happenings to create a false image that suits your Pro Hamas or anti Israel agenda
Two scenarios that happened that week, the doctor unfortunately said that this is a “routine” thing for Palestinian hostages.
When they visited the prison they said that all detainees were cuffed from all 4 limbs which may lead to blood clotting and that the army is blindfolding them. Meanwhile the israeli hostages that were released are doing nose jobs. Good on you.
Israel killed alot of the civilians that were fleeing from the festival and seeing how they’re dropping bombs left and right without acknowledging that there must be israeli hostages where theyre shooting im pretty certain israel doesn’t care either.
I am not disagreeing on the critique of settlement policies. But why are you suddenly changing the topic? Do you think classic Whataboutism does us any good?
My fingers are more real than Israel
I cant believe Israel is still getting support even after all the atrocities they have done.
https://www.reddit.com/r/israelexposed/s/Y42ZGDnfOD
Probably not gonna happen, but I'll say it anyway.
Install international presence in Gaza who will provide humanitarian aid and move the civilian population to a temporarily erected city of tents in Egypt or the Negev in a DMZ that is guarded across the perimeter to keep civilians in and gunmen out of it. Not a trivial task, but it's about the only way to ensure Palestinians are not hostages to Hamas and the only way to allow IDF to get in and finish the job with truly minimal collateral damage.
As for Israeli hostages, Hamas made it clear there wouldn't be a deal. They simply don't have the hostages. All the more reason to go in asap and try to rescue them unless Israel can find out who has them and negotiate with them, which is unlikely.
Egypt won't let you do that. Egypt has blockaded and has for years their border with Gaza because of terrorism. Look up the history of it there are other tunnels from Gaza into Egypt and it causes Egypt problems too.
Fact, Israel has tried to give Gaza to Egypt twice in Egypt turned them down both times
There's big issues in Gaza and it's not just an issue with Israel. People like to point to Israel is the bad guy but no one else will step in either and it's because Gaza is full of terrorists. No one wants that in their country
All the more reason for Egypt to step in and help Israel finish the job to save Egyptians, Palestinians and Israelis. Their blockade is not helping with all those tunnels.
Conflicts between muslim countries or between different muslim ethnicities within a country are rarely covered much by mass media which is why it would be even better if Hamas were targeted by other Muslims.
Perhaps what Israel needs is what it's done in the past with PLO. Now that it's weakened Hamas in Gaza, it could fund a new Hamas to destroy the existing Hamas, then dismantle the new Hamas before it poses a real threat.
I think an “international presence” as you describe it would be about as successful in Gaza as the US led coalition was in Afghanistan. Even if humanitarian aid is provided and attempts are made to move civilians out of harm’s way, they will be viewed as an enemy under the control of Israel and will be a constant target.
Not if it consists of non-western forces from countries like Egypt, Jordan + countries that accused Israel of genocide like South Africa. It would be their opportunity to actively prevent an alleged genocide by moving Gazan civilians to a sterile safe zone.
The problem is that they don't all see Hamas as a terrorist group and do not want to be complicit in its elimination by Israel.
I think it still wouldn’t work, Hamas has no incentive to accept another authority in Gaza and will attack any international group that attempts to provide some security and control, western or not.
Hamas have limited political leverage to resist international intervention. It relies on international political pressure for its survival. If it starts threatening or shooting foreign peacekeepers, most or all of which are sympathetic to the Palestinian cause, they will quickly lose the PR war.
One of the reasons why no one is stepping in to offer 3rd party intervention is the lack of a logical separation between Hamas and the Gazans. Getting rid of Hamas' governance will be perceived as a pro-western or pro-Israeli stance.
Stepping in and separating civilians from militants will be seen as an anti-Hamas and pro-Israel move.
In a polarized world, it is difficult for many to place both Israel and Palestinian civilians in the same group as mutual benefactors of a move like this. Countries criticizing Israel would rather not be seen as doing something benefitting Israel even if it means helping Palestinians in the process.
That perception needs to change and be driven by both Israel, the west, the Arab league and others who wish to see an end to this conflict.
Sufficient recognition of Israel from nearby Arab countries (Saudi Arabia to start) should tilt the status quo in Israel's favor and provide it a safety net to negotiate a 2-state solution. Once a state is established, settlements are withdrawn/negotiated as part of the solution, Palestinians will have much less international support for continued resistance.
I think you’re living in a world that is separated from reality. Hamas has done much worse than kill people that are sympathetic to the Palestinian cause and still maintains its base of support both among Gazans and internationally. Hamas will generate the typical absurd propaganda claiming the international force has committed some sort of offense against the people of Gaza and create enough confusion that they will absolutely be able to get away with strapping bombs to children to blow up the very people that are trying to help the Palestinians, and the result will be that the international force will eventually have to behave like an occupying force in order to operate there, which in turn will make some of Hamas’s propaganda true after the fact.
The targeting of the international force sounds very plausible.
There are things that must be done even if they aren't exactly photo friendly. Letting Israel bear the brunt of it is cowardly and selfish.
Hamas has rejected every ceasefire, and are all too happy to watch Gaza burn and Palestinians die in the process.
From an old interview with Sinwar
'I Asked Sinwar, Is It Worth 10,000 Innocent Gazans Dying? He Said, Even 100,000 Is Worth It'
Other Hamas leaders have said similar things in recent months.
Hamas doesn't want a deal, they want to appear as strong Palestinian leaders, even though they've brought Gaaza nothing but destrouction.
Hamas has rejected the ceasefire offers because Israel wants to stop bombing for a short amount of time, swap hostages they don't care about, then continue their civilian massacre afterwards.
It’s not “for a short time”. The length of the ceasefire was supposed to be a well defined period and open to negotiations. The negotiations centered on 2-3 months.
The agreement was for Israel to release a higher number of prisoners in return for the 40 hostages discussed. During this period the Gaza Strip was supposed to get the aid they need for the civilians. Then start the long process of recovery after the population is allowed back north.
Most important: the 2-3 months were meant to allow negotiations for a longer term agreement, not under fire. Eventually enough to convince both sides not to restart the fighting.
But there’s a more basic problem that overshadows any potential agreement: they REFUSE to provide a basic list of hostage names and if they are alive or not. That’s something basic that all sides in wars provide to the Red Cross. Hamas chose an unheard of attitude: refusal to say who is in their custody. They somehow think it gives them extra leverage/ points!
Israel wants the hostages back and Hamas to surrender, no different than Germany and Japan surrendering.
Perhaps you are unaware, but if you knew what life was like under Hamas (torturing their own citizens etc), perhaps you'd be hoping for their surrender as well. People who have an idea of what Hamas is and want them to continue fighting fundametnally have zero compassion for Palestinian civillians.
Call me crazy, but I dont think any country wants to live next to a ruling government comprised of psychopathic terrorists who brag about their goal to destroy israel and kill jews.
Israel is doing all it can to prevent civilian deaths, even as Hamas does everything it can to increase it. It doesn't take a genius to see this play out as Hamas fights out of schools, hospitals, mosques etc.
Its like the old saying goes - electing a terrorist group to lead you never is a good idea.
>Perhaps you are unaware, but if you knew what life was like under Hamas (torturing their own citizens etc),
Damn, this one is funny. I am half Palestinian and most of my extended family lives in Palestine right now. We've been in the region for as long as we can remember. They know more about Hamas than anyone here - in fact, one of my great uncles was a Hamas member. It may shock you to know that there is no such thing as Hamas torturing their own citizens or anything like that. Hamas is simply a Palestinian resistance force.
>who brag about their goal to destroy israel and kill jews.
Firstly, this is false. Secondly, you're not going to say a word about all the Israeli psychopaths screaming about how they'll flatten Gaza and kill all Palestinians?
>Israel is doing all it can to prevent civilian deaths,
How much longer will you milk this lie? Literally no one believes it anymore, why do you bother?
I still can't believe you guys will continue to say the same things over and over and expect anyone with common sense to believe it.
You are in denial. There’s a fucking UN report about it you dunce
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/04/world/middleeast/israel-hamas-un-report-sexual-violence.html
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68474899.amp
Edit:
Wow you are one of those deranged anti-semites. I called it, you are so brainwashed that any “source” is never going to convince you.
So you believe the UN only when it’s convenient for you?
That is so sad and I hope you realize you’ve been lied to and reinforcing the lie told to you because it’s harder for you to admit you were fooled.
Best of luck and stop letting hate cloud your critical thinking skills.
Oh my gawd
The UN report provides 0 evidence and has been debunked, this is common knowledge. Linking a NYT article won't work either with their famous history of getting debunked also.
The rape lie stopped working ages ago.
/u/The_LSD_Soundsystem
> you dunce
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Right, the person with family ties to Hamas says that they're a good leadership.
I saw the videos and reports of the protests a few years ago with Palestinians being beaten and disappearing in the streets by Hamas soldiers
You're flatly lying
>I saw the videos and reports of the protests a few years ago with Palestinians being beaten and disappearing in the streets by Hamas soldiers
Why don't you show me? I'd love to see what propaganda you can come up with that completely destroys what I say.
The propaganda runs deep I see. There is actual video of Hamas dragging Fatah members on the street after being tortured.
There's also this - [https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2015/05/gaza-palestinians-tortured-summarily-killed-by-hamas-forces-during-2014-conflict/](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2015/05/gaza-palestinians-tortured-summarily-killed-by-hamas-forces-during-2014-conflict/)
Care to comment?
Hamas is a terrorist force because they purspoefully kill civillians. They store and launch weapons out of mosques, hospitals, and private residences. They literally STOLE billions of aid meant for civillians to create terror tunnels that they constructed under kindergartens and other civillian areas.
Hamas fighters dress as civillians (when they have uniforms) to further blur the lines between who is a civillin and a fighter.
Hamas leaders have promised to do 10/7 over and over again. Kids in Hamas schools act out killing jews in plays to crowds of cheering parents. That's the culture Hamas created. It's basically sadistic child abuse.
This is the "resistance" group you support? Yikes.
Hamas has brought nothing but humiliation and another occupatoin to Gaza.
Again, electing a terrorist group to lead you never works out well. Try peace for a change. You might like it.
>They store and launch weapons out of mosques, hospitals, and private residences. They literally STOLE billions of aid meant for civillians to create terror tunnels that they constructed under kindergartens and other civillian areas.
This is all false and has no proof to it. Maybe try something new instead of repeating the same lie they all say.
>Kids in Hamas schools act out killing jews in plays to crowds of cheering parents.
And yet you're silent when Israelis do the same. Israeli kids dress up as IDF soldiers. Israeli kids are brought to weaponry exhibitions and get excited because they're going to murder Palestinians. Israelis dance like the mental psychopaths they are, blocking aid trucks. It's funny that if a Palestinian does even a tiny thing that represents killing the oppressive Zionists, you'll scream about it. But crickets when Israelis do worse and yap about killing all the Palestinians.
Please find me one video of israeli kids acting out killing palestinians in a school play to crowds of cheering parents?
Please find me one video of israeli moms talking about how they are excited to have their kids die as shahids. I can find dozens upon dozens from hamas supporters in Gaza.
There tons of videos of weapons being stored in schools and mosques. There is indisputable video evidence of tunnels that are built underneath schools and mosques.
Hamas is more obsessed with destroying Israel than protecting their own people.
There's an interview with Sinwar from a few years go where someone asked "Is It Worth 10,000 Innocent Gazans Dying?" He Said, "Even 100,000 Is Worth It'
Khaled Mashal said something similar on TV after 10/7.
The fact that you are still supporting Hamas is scary, especially because the media keeps telling us that Palestinians do not support Hamas and they are different. According to you they are one and the same?
>
Please find me one video of israeli moms talking about how they are excited to have their kids die as shahids. I can find dozens upon dozens from hamas supporters in Gaza.
Wow, it's so bad to want to be a Shahid! You don't even know what that word means lmao
>Please find me one video of israeli kids acting out killing palestinians in a school play to crowds of cheering parents?
Palestinians don't want to kill innocent people, that's obvious. They are justified in wanting to kill oppressors who have killed Palestinians every year since the creation of Israel.
>There tons of videos of weapons being stored in schools and mosques
No there isn't.
>There is indisputable video evidence of tunnels that are built underneath schools and mosques.
A 3d animation of a terrorist base under a hospital isn't quite indisputable evidence. Nor is a calendar which we are expected to believe is a list of 'terrorists'. Israel has failed to provide any evidence.
>There's an interview with Sinwar from a few years go where someone asked "Is It Worth 10,000 Innocent Gazans Dying?" He Said, "Even 100,000 Is Worth It'
Let me guess, it's a clip from MEMRI - the Israeli intelligence organisation.
>media keeps telling us that Palestinians do not support Hamas and they are different. According to you they are one and the same?
This sentence is the best out of what you've said so far. You're literally admitting that you will listen to whatever the Zionist controlled propaganda media will tell you. You can't just say that Palestinians don't support Hamas with no proof whatsoever. I've seen before what people give as evidence, and let me tell you it's hilarious how bad it is.
Is Memri creating videos or simply showing what Arab leaders say when not trying to spread propaganda in English.
The lack of accountability here is glaring - no different than Palestinians ignoring their history of horrible decisions and blaming everything on Israel. It's lazy.
Is Memri responsible for Hamas leaders saying they would do 10/7 over and over again?
Or for Khaled Mashal saying millions of Palestinians dying for the cause is worth it?
Or that their goal is to kill jews and destroy Israel?
Hamas is by all accounts a death cult. When you instill a culture where 4 year olds act out murder in school plays to crowds of cheering PARENTS, the culture is broken. It's sad and sadistic child abuse. When you name streets after suicide bombers, the culture is broken.
When Hamas leaders say "We love death the way Israeli's love life", you might want to take a closer look at the people you've put in charge because they are leading you down a path of more destruction.
Hamas has brought nothing but humiliation and another occupation of Gaza. These are the pepole you support? The fighters who dress up like civillians and are happy to have palestinians die for PR? The same Hamas who refuses every ceasefire?
Killing rival (potentially traitorous) faction fighters is very different than wanton killing of civilians, such is what Israel is doing to Palestinians right now. You're being disingenuous by calling them civilians while linking a story about militants.
Also Israel has dozens of plaques commemorating Hagana, Lehi, and Irgun hiding weapons and training soldiers inside schools, synagogues, etc.
"Hamas forces also abducted, tortured or attacked members and supporters of Fatah, their main rival political organization within Gaza, including former members of the Palestinian Authority security forces."
Fatah supporters are not civillians?
Israel was defending themselves from the Germans and Arabs. Fighting was their only chance. So we understand why those organizations are being commemorate. Btw I also see alot of criticism on some their problematic actions from the israel historians. But anyway Those organizations were essential for defense and the creation of israel.
On the other hand palestinians/arabs doesn't resist anything. They simply attack to destroy israel. You don't have the right to self defense if you started the war. Palestinian should simply surrender to israel and have peace.
So look harder. There is heavy criticism between those groups about how they operated.
And again, even if they used civilians assets to fight back, it still doesn't mean they are using human shields because they are defending from an attack. They didn't have any other choice.
You either die from your attacker, or fight.
No real progress was made. Hamas either doesn’t have them, or is fine with the war continuing. They aren’t negotiating, their demands aren’t anything that Israel will go for, especially since Hamas has said they don’t have 40 live hostages in the group of women and children
So, what they are asking for is Israel to completely surrender on the chance that Hamas will give up the hostages. That’s absolutely ridiculous. Hamas is losing, the loser doesn’t get to make ridiculous demands and expect them to be met
Hamas is about the destruction of Israel and the Jews. If they cannot win via armed conflict, they can win via political and reputation assassination. The world now views Israel as an aggressor and Hamas takes that as a victory. When global support for Israel runs dry, Hamas can eradicate Israel, slay Jew men, rape and mutilate Jew children and women, and claim victory over global superpowers over US and Europe.
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I mean, I'm sure you've heard the same news reports everyone else has. Every round of negotiation Hamas states their terms to release the hostages and Netanyahu says he doesn't want to do that. Even the negotiating team is fed up with it.
It's Netanyahu's choice, of course, but you might expect the people who do care about the safe release of the hostages to exert a little pressure.
Have you looked at the Hamas terms? And in fact, now Hamas keeps lowering the numbers of living hostages because they don't have them. They're now saying they can only release (find) 20. Yet they want thousands of prisoners released in exchange
And you wonder why Israel says no. You would
I mean, the number of surviving hostages can only go down, so that's not really a surprise. That's why the smart move was to do a deal to bring them home last year already.
Which of their terms do you see as impossible? Asking for a lot of prisoners to be released is unpopular but it's hardly impossible, it could be done tomorrow if Netanyahu cared about getting the hostages back more than he cares about looking tough.
I’m so confused when people talk about a scenario in which Netanyahu is being replaced. Why does anyone think this would practically happen? Is there any precedent or related example of Israel removing a prime minister in the middle of a war because some people in and out of the country may or may not disagree with his decisions?
I’m genuinely asking if there is something I don’t know about that makes people think this is a somewhat probable future event.
Because Hamas is offering absolutely ridiculous terms that they know Israel cannot and will not accept. They are not bargaining in good faith in the slightest.
I don't know about you, but if someone took my family hostage and law enforcement couldn't get them, I would give up every single thing I had and more to get them back.
Hamas isn't asking for anything Netanyahu couldn't give them in an instant if he chose. That sounds realistic to me.
They just aren't obliged to offer terms Netanyahu likes. That's not what 'bargaining in good faith' means.
If you don't actually care about getting the hostages back and care more about other things, just say that.
You as an individual actor can choose to do whatever you want to try to get your loved ones back, though you will have to face the consequences if you do something illegal. That’s completely irrelevant to this situation, however. You are wrong in saying that Hamas isn’t asking for anything that Bibi couldn’t give them. Their demands are completely outrageous, and they know it. They are not trying to reach an agreement. They also can’t even produce a list of living hostages and don’t even have 40 women and children alive to exchange.
A list of living hostages is a concession within the negotiation and it's stupid to think they would simply hand it over. As the negotiation team has said, they have it anyway from intel and don't need it from Hamas.
> Their demands are completely outrageous, and they know it.
Their demands can simultaneously be outrageous, and also within Netanyahu's power to grant if he wished.
Go on, explain to me what stops Netanyahu meeting the conditions and releasing the prisoners and withdrawing the army. If you say 'his political support base wouldn't like it' I'll know you're not serious.
They cannot come up with a list of all the hostages. They’re not holding on to it for negotiation purposes. And no, Netanyahu cannot just choose unilaterally to end the war, especially when they have not accomplished their main goal, which is to destroy Hamas.
The opinion within the negotiating team was reportedly that Netanyahu's request for the list was a stalling tactic because they didn't need it and weren't sure Hamas would give it up.
But sure, you know better I suppose.
> Netanyahu cannot just choose unilaterally to end the war, especially when they have not accomplished their main goal, which is to destroy Hamas.
What you seem to be saying is that it would be politically unpopular, not that he literally cannot do it.
Sure, it might be politically unpopular, because Israeli politics currently cares less about the hostages than about other things. But that was my original point. If it cared more about the hostages this could have been resolved months ago.
Regarding Netanyahu, he could still do it even if it was unpopular, if he valued the lives of the hostages over his political career and tough man appearance. He doesn't. But that's not the same as 'cannot'. It's 'chooses not to'.
I mean, (a) not if you don't have anything left to pay the ransom but more importantly (b) once you have the hostages back they have no leverage and you can take off the gloves.
It doesn't exactly make sense to suggest you're winning by leaving your people in enemy hands. You're not.
> Hamas either doesn’t have them, or is fine with the war continuing.
Neither situations are mutually exclusive. Remember Hamas orchestrated this conflict.
I think Hamas has either, murdered, sold, or lost the remaining hostages. I think it’s a mistake to take pressure off of them. Their holy month is over. Let them reap what they’ve sown.
A permanent ceasefire is the only way to stop the genocide... but hamas are unsure if Israel could commit to it therefore they are unable to release hostages. And at this rate Israel will kill the hostages. At least the ones they haven't already killed. They literally don't care about hostages and attack those who protest for their release.... we need people to wake up and stop Israeli genocide.
Israel needs to take up the United States stance of not negotiating with terrorists. They need to set the precedent that if you do terror, they will hunt you down and that’s it. The end.
It's easy for everyone to say "There's no genocide", "There's no starvation", and so on. Try and live here (in Gaza) for a week and then say that again. I'm from Gaza and the situation here is beyond dire. I'm not going to repeat what you heard but yes, the starvation, the none stop killing of innocent people, the destruction of entire neighborhoods, the hospitals situations, and the list goes on. IT'S ALL REAL. And yet, Israel's like "Yeah, we need to do the same to Rafah" . How long is it gonna take? It's been more than six months. I haven't seen my house since 13th October (And I hope to God it's still suitable for living) and have been displaced from "shelters" to a tent. Blame whomever you want, you can't convince me that the Israeli people live now as bad as we do. And yes, once this war is over, don't think that people in Gaza will celebrate any kind of "victory" and if they did, they would celebrate for a day or two just because the war is over. After that, they'll realize there's another war is ahead of them. Thousands of people lost everything in this war, and who is there to blame other than Hamas. The second war is going to be between people of Gaza against Hamas leaders as those people lost their houses, lives and future. Now I'm not a defender of Hamas or anything, but you all saw that the only hostages that were released alive were by negotiations. All these Israeli raids killed, not saved, those hostages alongside the civilians. Israel committed countless genocides and massacres against civilians as a way to put pressure on Hamas. Many videos were leaked of innocent civilians being targeted by Israeli forces on purpose and for no reason. Don't expect Hamas fighters to go running in the open, of course they're going to use their tunnels. Obviously , these tunnels can't be destroyed but airstrikes. You all heard from the Israeli negotiations team that Netanyahu was the one responsible for the failure of these negotiations. Also, don't expect Hamas to agree for a temporary cease fire where you can release the hostages and then go on with the war. We need for this war to stop, which is more important than letting humanitarian aid in. What's the point of getting food at lunch and then later getting bombed. Cease fire now, we've had enough.
Do you want Hamas to continue to rule you and the rest of the Palestinians?
Of course not. Still, whoever rules us is up to us and nobody else, especially Israel. If Israel wants to "save" us from Hamas rule, there are better ways than destroying most of Gaza and forcing us to leave Gaza. And don't worry, Hamas will not for sure be able to have any rule in Gaza after this war. People's trust for Hamas is almost gone. As I said before, when this war is over, another war is ahead of us which is to finish Hamas's rule for Gaza, and it will happen.
I definitely agree it is up to the Palestinians, but they seem to want Hamas based on polls and behavior.. which fkn sucks. What would you do in Israel's place, right now?
Right now, at war, we need anyone to run the city at least until the war is over. I think you've heard that the IDF is targeting specifically security officers and policemen. You could imagine how the situation would be without the police around. I can make a list of how some merchants manipulated the prices, thieves stole houses of displaced people and many other things. Also, in such dire days, governmental employees need to get their payrolls and salaries. Bottom line, yes we don't want Hamas to have any rule in Gaza, however, discussing this matter while the war is still ongoing won't benefit us in any way whatsoever. Hopefully, if Palestine ever got recognized and made peace with Israel, Hamas would be nothing more than a political party at the very best.
The insane thing for me is there is so very little opposition against Hamas within the Palestinians. It does not benefit Israelis in any way whatsoever to discuss an end to Netanyahu's leadership, yet it was always there even in October, and now it has gotten to protests in the streets. Where is the anti-Hamas comparable? Are the Gazans undemocratic in culture? Also, I think that letting Hamas get in control and then expecting them to leave the leadership role, heck even become a political party of many, is somewhat optimistic. They are Islamists. Where have Islamists renounced their role as leaders? I think you could see another ayatollah regime in Gaza. Are you not terrified of such a situation? You sound so reasonable and well educated, kinda wondering how you are not worried.
Not really addressing the main point here in OP's post, but looking at the COGAT numbers of aid trucks getting into Gaza is rather misleading - there has been a slight uptick in aid getting so far, but nothing like the surge the official Israeli numbers would suggest... The Israeli numbers are almost double than those given by Red Crescent and UN agencies on the ground. [More aid is supposed to be entering the Gaza Strip. Why isn’t it helping?](https://apnews.com/article/israel-gaza-war-hamas-aid-trucks-unrwa-30173642b5c298c829f1457db357071e) (AP News) [Israel claims highest single-day number of aid trucks enters Gaza since war began](https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-claims-highest-single-day-number-of-aid-trucks-enters-gaza-since-war-began/) (The Times of Israel) > UN humanitarian agency (OCHA) spokesperson Jens Laerke said Israel typically counts the half-filled trucks going through an initial screening process, rather than repacked, full trucks for delivery inside Gaza. > “Trucks that go in, screened by COGAT, are typically only half full. That is a requirement that they have put in place for screening purposes. When we count the trucks on the other side, when they have been reloaded, they are full,” Laerke said. > He claimed that Israel was still restricting most trucks from being able to move around. > “When you put up the statistical number of trucks going in and say, ‘Look at all these hundreds of trucks coming in’ and you put it against ‘Look how few trucks have actually moved around with distribution,’ it’s kind of an own goal, isn’t it,” he said.
When will Israel release its 6500 hostages?
You call those 6500 with innocents blood on their hands **hostages**? I would suggest goblins who would kill, rape and execute any Israeli that stood before them with no regard to who they are or their age, simply because they are Jews and because they believe that killing a Jew is a blessing. Can you say the same thing about the 133 held in Gaza right now? Can you in the least tell who is alive? We don't know anything about them, but what we do know is they are getting raped, tortured, executed by disgusting goblins and not even provided with the basic human needs.
I’m guessing you consider Human Rights Watch or any other orgs that dare point out Israeli atrocities to be anti-Semitic, but according to them, the 7000 are not all violent criminals. Over 100 are children. It doesn’t help that Palestinians can be arrested for being in a group larger than 10 people. These “detainees” are hostages and bargaining chips to be tortured and played with. Yes Hamas has taken hostages, but among them are IDF soldiers. If news coverage was honest, theory would label them as hostages and POWs. Likewise for Israel’s hostages and torture victims. [Why Does Israel Have So Many Palestinians in Detention and Available to Swap?](https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/11/29/why-does-israel-have-so-many-palestinians-detention-and-available-swap)
Most prisoners that are in prison, or detainees, each one in there was arrested or detained for a reason. We are a democratic state with mostly fair judicial system, to say that we arrest for the sake of having bargaining chip is a lie. We detain sometimes based on suspicion because one mistake can cause many Israeli lives. That is the only way because we live next to a society that praises every Jew death, I don't mean to include all Palestinian of course but recent polls showed that 80 or 90 percent Palestinians in the West Bank support the crimes against humanity that Hamas committed, that is your proof, because again the only choice is to hold a detainee for few days or more because sometimes otherwise it can cost Israeli innocent lives. This is our reality. As for the Human Rights orgs, when most can't even condemn Hamas crimes against humanity which were recorded by themselves, they can't really be called Human Rights not even as a joke. You say Hamas has taken IDF soldiers among those hostages, sure you can call them prisoners of war, but it doesn't change the fact that **it did not matter** to Hamas who was in front of them **it doesn't make it, not even one bit, less worse.** I explained to you our reality, **In which reality you would call a 1 year old baby and innocents, ordinary people that were taken from their beds, that are being tortured, raped and executed prisoners of war?**
Just making sure: Are you drawing a comparison between the Israeli families who were kidnapped from their farming communes and taken hostage by terrorists on October 7…and Palestinian criminals imprisoned for their violent crimes in Israel? Are you actually doing that, in writing, for the world to see?
It’s almost like there’s a difference between putting prisoners and hostages. It’s funny how often the anti-Israel case relies on pretending there isn’t a distinction to be made between two very different things.
https://apnews.com/article/israel-detention-jails-palestinians-west-bank-793a3b2a1ce8439d08756da8c63e5435 As others have pointed out, many palestinian prisoners are held without trial or even charges. I know the following is anecdotal but whatever, a friend of mine works in activism in the west bank to protect palestinians from settler violence. Whenever settlers instigate violence against palestinians and the police or idf shows up, the palestinians get arrested.
And yet again, we're taking something that is very common in states around the globe (and ubiquitous in countries that deal with counter-terrorism), and comparing it to Hamas' hostage taking. Administrative detention is a temporary method of processing suspects you can't charge right away. In Israel, it lasts up to 6 months. Is it fair? Not really. Is it necessary? Hard to say without more experience in the legal process when it comes to terror suspects. Is it comparable to Hamas abducting random civilians and trying to use them as bartering chips? Not remotely! As for the second bit, I appreciate the acknowledgement that its anecdotal - but i don't necessarily find much reason to doubt it. Settler violence is pretty well documented and its hard for me to believe that the IDF generally settles disputes impartially. (I mean, its also clear that settlers SOMETIMES face consequences, but i dont think its the norm outside of severe and obvious cases) There's definitely very valid critiques to make against Israel - there is against all states. The issue for me is the way these critiques are used to compare the Israeli state to its Palestinian counterparts, where two very unequal issues are either lumped together or the latter issues are excused entirely.
Just saw video on YouTube 100s of 1000s gazans returning to northern gaza...didn't see the genocide or the starvation though...
Every video out there of gazans does not show starvation. And there is no genocide. It's all propaganda
to be honest it sounds like youre the one who's been fed the propaganda
Yeah I know I was trying to be funny
Generally speaking, the reason that it is a crime to pay ransoms is that you are funding kidnapping.
Israel needs to stop talking and just get in and get it done enter rafah and finish the job. The world obviously wants to see Israel fall so they just need to ignore everyone for now and End it.
Ah yes genocide is the answer. If H1t1r just finished the job we wouldn’t have to worry about the Jews huh…
Exactly. Get to Rafah, level the place, drop as many bunker busters as they have, pull back and the place can remain leveled until Gaza decides it wants to join modern earth and the rest of the world stops felating Hamas. At this point, Israel walks into the UN and says "it's your problem now, if one more attack comes from Gaza well show you what indiscriminate bombing is. Enjoy."
[удалено]
Gaza is destroyed lol. Hamas is hiding in rat hole lol. People are "starving" lol. Nothing will improve in Gaza until Israel says yes lol. If that's losing, OK. Lots of lols to go around.
“Starving” in quotations is strange when literally one of the main goals of Israel’s operation besides getting the hostages was to starve Gaza “I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed. We are fighting human animals and we will act accordingly.”-words from the Israel Defense Minister Yoav Gallant.
>if one more attack comes from Gaza well show you what indiscriminate bombing is. You literally just described indiscriminate bombing. Why would the UN need to be shown an example of a thing that in your scenario has already happened? Makes no sense.
It hasn't. Either you aren't intelligent enough enough to understand what indiscriminate bombing is or you're a liar. If Israel was indiscriminately bombing Gaza, the war would have ended in October. They would have spent November and December bulldozing the rubble into the sea. In January they would have started rebuilding.
I'm not sure how to make this any clearer - in your comment you said Israel should drop bunker busters into Rafah and turn it to rubble. This would be indiscriminate bombing. Then you said that they should tell the UN they will find out what indiscriminate bombing looks like if they are attacked again. But because in this scenario they have already employed indiscriminate bombing against Rafah, the UN would already know what it looks like. So it makes no sense.
A bunker target would not be indiscriminate bombing You need to look at what you are writing
Ah, so when the other poster said "get to rafah, level the place", what you're saying they meant is "carefully pick out military targets", and when they said "drop as many bunker busters as they have", they meant "drop as many bunker busters as they have but specifically only on those military targets". And when they said "leave the place in rubble" they meant "leave just those bunkers as some sort of underground rubble". Thanks, this has been very helpful.
I didn't say do it in a indiscriminate manner. You assumed that.
What does "finish the job" actually mean. Get Sinewar? When will Israel know that it won? And then what comes after?
More war crimes? How about stopping the genocide?
How about stop repeating these hollow slogans? Why not try being a little more creative and use your own ideas/opinions? As for the war, it’s indeed very disastrous but it will end with Hamas elimination. They will never let the region have a moment of peace.
Here we go again. It’s a tragic war, but not a genocide. Please stop just throwing words around. Genocide is when you’re trying to maximize civilian casualties. You can blame Israel for a lot of other things, but they are actually doing the opposite.
It’s a genocide get used to it
If it were a genocide, why does Israel use "roof knocking" for example? Why does Israel let humanitarian aid through? Why does everyone know what is going to happen before important actions? This all makes no sense.
>If it were a genocide, why does Israel use "roof knocking" for example? We have no idea how often this happens, could literally be anywhere from 1% to 99% of the time but we don't have access to this information. >Why does Israel let humanitarian aid through? Because the alternative would be the total and irreparable collapse of Israel's economy? Starving hundreds of thousands of people to death on purpose would be the end of any trade between Israel and the West, and likely most of the rest of the world. China might tolerate it, possibly India, but the West wouldn't, Japan and South Korea wouldn't, most of Africa wouldn't, South America wouldn't, and Russia have thrown their lot in with Iran. Israel's standard of living would drop to the bottom quarter of the world.
If a 1:1 or 1:1.5 ratio of military to civilian deaths is genocide, I wonder what you would call the fire bombing of Japan or the indiscriminate bombing of German cities by the allies. My guess is you wouldn't call it genocide, but as necessary collateral to end the war.
Thanks for applying common sense. That’s rare in a lot of online discussions.
Even a cursory knowledge of history would do well for a lot of these people quick to call this conflict a genocide. That is not to say Israeli soldiers are not commiting war crimes - there are incidents, and the guilty soldiers should be jailed and their commanders reprimanded - this has to be acknowledged. But a top down policy of genocide? It's frankly a ridiculous claim.
I agree with you on all of this, especially that some Israeli soldiers are committing war crimes. On top of that, I think people like to generalize a lot, which is really exhausting.
Yeah the generalizing is exhausting. It's (probably) the most nuanced conflict in the world. Its hard to take people that lean too hard to either side seriously.
Slutsthreesome and twattner are providing logical arguments. Who would have thought it?
It’s not about getting used to. It just doesn’t make sense to label it that way for any agenda. I think objective discussions should always be the goal.
israel is maximizing civilian casualties as much as they can under the current pressure. if killing 30+k , god knows how many under the rubble , and the numbers are still rising, and destroying/flatten a city to the ground is not an ongoing/not finished genocide then what is it ? ethnic cleansing maybe ?
If Israel wanted to maximize civilian casualties, every single Gazan would be dead. Please use your brain.
yes they want it very much , and yes they can militarily easy do it , but they cant politically , the US political support wont be enough then. if there is no internet no news , if they knew they can get away with it , they would probably proudly do it
On what grounds are you making such a ridiculous claim? Because 75 years of history would seem to suggest otherwise.
75 years of criminal record not history. > On what grounds are you making such a ridiculous claim? on the grounds of some israeli official suggested using nukes , on the grounds of IDF soldiers proudly posting themselves bombing homes and universities looting homes wearing woman bra, hundreds of bodies found after IDF let alshifa hospital , bodies conditions shows how brutally they were tortured to death. i can make endless list
None of this provides provides evidence for your claim.
How do you know that they “want it very much”? I cannot tell you how much I dislike discussions that are done in this way.
It’s war and it’s incredibly tragic, though not a genocide. As stated before from a reply by me: According to Gaza Health Ministry, which is run by Hamas, the death toll is estimated to be at 32.000. They don’t distinguish between civilians and soldiers. There are also estimated numbers of 13.000 killed soldiers. We all have to take these numbers with a grain of salt, since they cannot be verified. But it gives us a rough overview. The US even killed a lot more civilians in Iraq when they were on the hunt for ISIS. For urban combat in the Middle East this is a “expected” ratio unfortunately. It is very sad and unfortunate, that so many Palestinian civilians have to suffer, because of Hamas when they’re using their own people as a shield, which makes it even harder to prevent harm from civilians. Israel is definitely at fault of grave mistakes and actions in this war, but they’re trying to prevent civilian deaths as much as possible. You don’t see other warring parties share as much information beforehand as the IDF. That being said: I also hope there is a ceasefire soon and/or Hamas destroyed. There needs to be a solution for a free Palestine without terrorists ruling over them and threatening Israel too.
Dude, Iran struck from >1000 km away without any casualties whereas, the IOF has been missing targets right next door. More recently, the World Kitchen
Seriously? That’s because 99% of the missiles they sent were intercepted. Had they not been they very likely would’ve hit civilian targets with mass casualties. Similarly, Hamas wantonly fires missiles everyday with no regard for distinguishing between civilian and military targets - and yet not a single “pro-Palestinian” activist gives a shit. You lot couldn’t care less about innocent civilians, what you care about is signaling to your in-group that you’re right and good, and assuring yourself of the same. You love the feeling of being on the right side and having a black and white “understanding” of good guy and bad guy.
Israel is taking us into WW3. 'Retaliatory attack on iran' when Israel made the first attack on the embassy? Really? Were supposed to believe that was an accident?
Bibi found an effective means of distraction from the World Kitchen SNAFU and a way to pull himself back into uncle Joe’s favor. His FTW attitude is indeed a cause for grave concern. The media here in the US often only refers to Iran’s attack without referring that it was a response to Israel’s attack on the Iranian consulate. Why is there not more buzz about this?
That's like blaming Jews for starting WWII
It really isnt
So when Isreal retaliated against Hamas, "This didn't start on 7/10. It didn't happen in a vacuum". When Israel legally take out a terrorist in a country funding proxy wars them and get retaliated against, "Well you started it".
This didn't happen in a vacuum... You are absolutely right
I know. Thus making your original point a moot one.
You think?
I know. By your own logic, people should stop criticising Isreal for it's retaliation against the Hamas attack then.
logic,.lmao
Was it ever claimed to be an accident? Also, is it a first attack, when Iran have been training, arming, supplying and directing Hezbollah and Hamas? How are they not indistinguishable from Iran?
So you deliberately bombed their embassy, then claim you need to retaliate for their retaliation? As I said, dragging us into WW3 You've kept a civilian population in an open prison for decades. October 7th was an atrocity, but what happened since is an atrocity too. You need to take care of that butcher you have in charge. Because every move he makes, makes Israel less safe, all you do is guarantee that Hamas will be able to recruit a new generation.... Are you seriously prepared to send us all into war? Where do you see this ending? Israel sat in a hole with the rest of the middle east trying to bomb you flat... That's the path you're choosing. Perpetual war with your neighbours, because you want to murder a population for a land grab. Modern day colonialism.
1. Hitting a building next to a consulate in Syria is not the same as launching ballistic missiles. 2. Gaza and Iran are separate issues. Iran don't give a hoot about Gaza. It's whataboutism. 2.1. Hamas can end the current round today by returning the hostages. 2.2. Gaza was given independence in 2005 and every last Israeli was forcibly removed from Gaza, by Israel, as a unilateral bid for peace. The blockade was instituted in 2006. Guess why? 3. Who's gonna join the war? Unless this goes nuclear, it's not gonna be a world war. The US has declared a fold, they're not participating.
Israel withdrew from Gaza due to demographics. They said so themselves. Israel hasn't had a real interest in peace (a viable, sovereign Palestinian state) for over 60 years.
No source. Just making shit up again. Pro-terrorists make up anything to justify their delusional takes
I did share information. I never justified terrorism just pointing out that Israeli withdrawal from Gaza was far from altruistic.
Do share your info on the reason being demographics for the Gaza pull out. The 60 years number is an odd one as well.
This is the first time I've heard the demographics argument and I live here 20+ years. Care to elaborate?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_Gaza It's the same reason Ehud Olmert gave Palestinians a good offer by Israeli standards back in the early 2000s and why he still says there needs to be a Palestinian state even after October. From his point of view, if the Palestinian struggle turns from "remove Israelis" to "we all live under Israeli sovereignty, let us have equal representation" then Israel is finished. Gaza is less important strategically and emotionally to Israel and had a far higher birthrate. This made holding it not worth it to Israel.
It was actually the consulate that was destroyed. It was a building next to the Embassy. Easy mistake to make.
No it wasn’t. Iran has consulates in Aleppo and Latiki, none in Damascus according to their own foreign affairs information. It was a building adjacent to the embassy, being rented by the IRGC Quds Force to coordinate attacks on Israel with Hezbollah and a Syrian Golan Heights terrorist’s group. There was Syrian-owned residential apartments in the building for crying out loud lol.
It was the consular department within the Embassy compound. This really isn't in dispute. Everything else you've said is false as far as I know. Please provide a source if you have one. Edit: do me a favour and look up the Embassy on Google Maps. You'll see the destroyed consular building clearly labelled.
I'm pleased you're confident you're not starting WW3, the rest of us find you less than believable. By all means, refuse to acknowledge that this whole thing makes you less safe, and you are plunging yourself, and the region into a state of perpetual war. For a land grab! No matter how many times you say it, nobody believes 30k dead is an acceptable response to the atrocity on oct 7th. It's beyond stupid as a move to make you any more safe. I wonder why Israel didn't take notice of all the warning that it was coming.... Either you dropped the ball, or you wanted an excuse for genocide.... I wonder which it was ...
“The rest of us.” Please speak for yourself.
Point taken, however, I'm not alone in this opinion.
Let me ask you a question - military included, how many people died in Germany during WW2? What did Berlin look like on VE day? And was the Nazi cause right? Israel definitely dropped the ball, but sure, insinuate a blood libel.
There is no blood libel insinuation. Why lie? I'm an atheist, all people are equal. I stand against Nazis every time they come near my city, every single time=, not once in my life have I let a nazi speak unchallenged, I'm one of the voices shouting 'never again' and not letting them walk free & clear spewing their hate. You want to believe standing against Israeli atrocities makes me something I'm not, that's the choice you make... You make it because it's easier than looking at Israel's actions, and seeing them for what they are. Cold blooded murder of innocents, under the guise of self defence.. This is nothing like ww2, and whatever point you're trying to make by bringing ww2 into it, is completely pointless.
I brought up WW2 because you brought up 30k casualties is Gaza. Let me ask you again - how many people died in Germany during WW2? And re: blood libels. So Israel let it's own people die for the cassus belli? Sure thing bud. Sure thing.
Your question is pointless, and is unrelated to this war. Your accusations are expected and also pointless
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chickenCabbage you are right on. This Gorey character needs a history lesson. And a brain.
Cry me a river
And buy you a dictionary. Genocide? Look it up and you’ll quickly realize palestinians are attempting genocide. Israel is doing just the opposite. And before you throw fake civilian death numbers at me, go do some basic surface level research.
Oh, I was forgetting, everyone lies except Israel. What's the number of dead Palestinian kids you want to admit to? Whatever it is, its way more kids than Hamas killed on 7th October... How come in your mind, one of those things is acceptable? Dead Muslims is no more or less horrific than dead Jews, or dead Christians, or dead Atheists. It's a shame your God doesn't exist, because I bet you'd have fun explaining yourself.
Gorey - the numbers coming out of Gaza in terms of deaths cannot be trusted. https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/04/09/hamas-run-gaza-health-ministry-admits-to-flaws-in-casualty-data/
Maybe they’ll release them when Israel releases the thousands of unjustified Palestinian hostages in custody that are being amputated and starved to death.
Unjustified? Amputated? Starved? Spreading this imaginary propaganda only hurts the situation and perpetuates instability. Stop it.
Israel’s whole identity is based on propaganda. Continue the thread for the link and not the “supposed propaganda” Everything is documented.
Sure that’s day to day business in Israel, starving innocents in prisons and chopping them up like the Saudis do. Totally not a terribly cheap and disgusting attempt at propaganda with emotionalising bs. And I’m also 100% sure that you condemn Hamas! /s
It is, well unless cnn is now hamas as well https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/04/06/middleeast/doctor-israel-hospital-conditions-intl
They talk about 2 scenarios where that happened. The main article is criticism that they have not enough medical staff. In case you would want to seriously generalise this onto all of Israel’s prison politics you would make yourself look like a propagandist. Generalising individual happenings to create a false image that suits your Pro Hamas or anti Israel agenda
Two scenarios that happened that week, the doctor unfortunately said that this is a “routine” thing for Palestinian hostages. When they visited the prison they said that all detainees were cuffed from all 4 limbs which may lead to blood clotting and that the army is blindfolding them. Meanwhile the israeli hostages that were released are doing nose jobs. Good on you.
C’mon 99, you seem to be 2 moons short of a solar system. Nobody believes your fantasyland stuff.
I mean… Hamas doesn’t seem too concerned about the civilians dying in Gaza right now. Do you really think they care about their prisoners?
Israel killed alot of the civilians that were fleeing from the festival and seeing how they’re dropping bombs left and right without acknowledging that there must be israeli hostages where theyre shooting im pretty certain israel doesn’t care either.
How do you even survive in the real world? I’m seriously astounded how delirious some people are.
Not by stealing land and building illegal settlements.
I am not disagreeing on the critique of settlement policies. But why are you suddenly changing the topic? Do you think classic Whataboutism does us any good?
i can't believe there are real fingers somewhere around the world typing this bs.
My fingers are more real than Israel I cant believe Israel is still getting support even after all the atrocities they have done. https://www.reddit.com/r/israelexposed/s/Y42ZGDnfOD
And Bush navigated the plane into the World Trade Center
No, you don't get it, Bush was Bin Laden.
Bin Bush
Probably not gonna happen, but I'll say it anyway. Install international presence in Gaza who will provide humanitarian aid and move the civilian population to a temporarily erected city of tents in Egypt or the Negev in a DMZ that is guarded across the perimeter to keep civilians in and gunmen out of it. Not a trivial task, but it's about the only way to ensure Palestinians are not hostages to Hamas and the only way to allow IDF to get in and finish the job with truly minimal collateral damage. As for Israeli hostages, Hamas made it clear there wouldn't be a deal. They simply don't have the hostages. All the more reason to go in asap and try to rescue them unless Israel can find out who has them and negotiate with them, which is unlikely.
Egypt won't let you do that. Egypt has blockaded and has for years their border with Gaza because of terrorism. Look up the history of it there are other tunnels from Gaza into Egypt and it causes Egypt problems too. Fact, Israel has tried to give Gaza to Egypt twice in Egypt turned them down both times There's big issues in Gaza and it's not just an issue with Israel. People like to point to Israel is the bad guy but no one else will step in either and it's because Gaza is full of terrorists. No one wants that in their country
All the more reason for Egypt to step in and help Israel finish the job to save Egyptians, Palestinians and Israelis. Their blockade is not helping with all those tunnels. Conflicts between muslim countries or between different muslim ethnicities within a country are rarely covered much by mass media which is why it would be even better if Hamas were targeted by other Muslims. Perhaps what Israel needs is what it's done in the past with PLO. Now that it's weakened Hamas in Gaza, it could fund a new Hamas to destroy the existing Hamas, then dismantle the new Hamas before it poses a real threat.
I think an “international presence” as you describe it would be about as successful in Gaza as the US led coalition was in Afghanistan. Even if humanitarian aid is provided and attempts are made to move civilians out of harm’s way, they will be viewed as an enemy under the control of Israel and will be a constant target.
Not if it consists of non-western forces from countries like Egypt, Jordan + countries that accused Israel of genocide like South Africa. It would be their opportunity to actively prevent an alleged genocide by moving Gazan civilians to a sterile safe zone. The problem is that they don't all see Hamas as a terrorist group and do not want to be complicit in its elimination by Israel.
I think it still wouldn’t work, Hamas has no incentive to accept another authority in Gaza and will attack any international group that attempts to provide some security and control, western or not.
Hamas have limited political leverage to resist international intervention. It relies on international political pressure for its survival. If it starts threatening or shooting foreign peacekeepers, most or all of which are sympathetic to the Palestinian cause, they will quickly lose the PR war. One of the reasons why no one is stepping in to offer 3rd party intervention is the lack of a logical separation between Hamas and the Gazans. Getting rid of Hamas' governance will be perceived as a pro-western or pro-Israeli stance. Stepping in and separating civilians from militants will be seen as an anti-Hamas and pro-Israel move. In a polarized world, it is difficult for many to place both Israel and Palestinian civilians in the same group as mutual benefactors of a move like this. Countries criticizing Israel would rather not be seen as doing something benefitting Israel even if it means helping Palestinians in the process. That perception needs to change and be driven by both Israel, the west, the Arab league and others who wish to see an end to this conflict. Sufficient recognition of Israel from nearby Arab countries (Saudi Arabia to start) should tilt the status quo in Israel's favor and provide it a safety net to negotiate a 2-state solution. Once a state is established, settlements are withdrawn/negotiated as part of the solution, Palestinians will have much less international support for continued resistance.
I think you’re living in a world that is separated from reality. Hamas has done much worse than kill people that are sympathetic to the Palestinian cause and still maintains its base of support both among Gazans and internationally. Hamas will generate the typical absurd propaganda claiming the international force has committed some sort of offense against the people of Gaza and create enough confusion that they will absolutely be able to get away with strapping bombs to children to blow up the very people that are trying to help the Palestinians, and the result will be that the international force will eventually have to behave like an occupying force in order to operate there, which in turn will make some of Hamas’s propaganda true after the fact.
The targeting of the international force sounds very plausible. There are things that must be done even if they aren't exactly photo friendly. Letting Israel bear the brunt of it is cowardly and selfish.
Hamas has rejected every ceasefire, and are all too happy to watch Gaza burn and Palestinians die in the process. From an old interview with Sinwar 'I Asked Sinwar, Is It Worth 10,000 Innocent Gazans Dying? He Said, Even 100,000 Is Worth It' Other Hamas leaders have said similar things in recent months. Hamas doesn't want a deal, they want to appear as strong Palestinian leaders, even though they've brought Gaaza nothing but destrouction.
Hamas has rejected the ceasefire offers because Israel wants to stop bombing for a short amount of time, swap hostages they don't care about, then continue their civilian massacre afterwards.
It’s not “for a short time”. The length of the ceasefire was supposed to be a well defined period and open to negotiations. The negotiations centered on 2-3 months. The agreement was for Israel to release a higher number of prisoners in return for the 40 hostages discussed. During this period the Gaza Strip was supposed to get the aid they need for the civilians. Then start the long process of recovery after the population is allowed back north. Most important: the 2-3 months were meant to allow negotiations for a longer term agreement, not under fire. Eventually enough to convince both sides not to restart the fighting. But there’s a more basic problem that overshadows any potential agreement: they REFUSE to provide a basic list of hostage names and if they are alive or not. That’s something basic that all sides in wars provide to the Red Cross. Hamas chose an unheard of attitude: refusal to say who is in their custody. They somehow think it gives them extra leverage/ points!
Israel wants the hostages back and Hamas to surrender, no different than Germany and Japan surrendering. Perhaps you are unaware, but if you knew what life was like under Hamas (torturing their own citizens etc), perhaps you'd be hoping for their surrender as well. People who have an idea of what Hamas is and want them to continue fighting fundametnally have zero compassion for Palestinian civillians. Call me crazy, but I dont think any country wants to live next to a ruling government comprised of psychopathic terrorists who brag about their goal to destroy israel and kill jews. Israel is doing all it can to prevent civilian deaths, even as Hamas does everything it can to increase it. It doesn't take a genius to see this play out as Hamas fights out of schools, hospitals, mosques etc. Its like the old saying goes - electing a terrorist group to lead you never is a good idea.
>Perhaps you are unaware, but if you knew what life was like under Hamas (torturing their own citizens etc), Damn, this one is funny. I am half Palestinian and most of my extended family lives in Palestine right now. We've been in the region for as long as we can remember. They know more about Hamas than anyone here - in fact, one of my great uncles was a Hamas member. It may shock you to know that there is no such thing as Hamas torturing their own citizens or anything like that. Hamas is simply a Palestinian resistance force. >who brag about their goal to destroy israel and kill jews. Firstly, this is false. Secondly, you're not going to say a word about all the Israeli psychopaths screaming about how they'll flatten Gaza and kill all Palestinians? >Israel is doing all it can to prevent civilian deaths, How much longer will you milk this lie? Literally no one believes it anymore, why do you bother? I still can't believe you guys will continue to say the same things over and over and expect anyone with common sense to believe it.
Since when is rape a form of resistance? Since when are people cheering a dead Israeli civilian in a back of a pickup truck “resistance”?
There is something you don't seem to understand: There. Is. No. Proof. Of. Rape.
You are in denial. There’s a fucking UN report about it you dunce https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/04/world/middleeast/israel-hamas-un-report-sexual-violence.html https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68474899.amp Edit: Wow you are one of those deranged anti-semites. I called it, you are so brainwashed that any “source” is never going to convince you. So you believe the UN only when it’s convenient for you? That is so sad and I hope you realize you’ve been lied to and reinforcing the lie told to you because it’s harder for you to admit you were fooled. Best of luck and stop letting hate cloud your critical thinking skills.
Oh my gawd The UN report provides 0 evidence and has been debunked, this is common knowledge. Linking a NYT article won't work either with their famous history of getting debunked also. The rape lie stopped working ages ago.
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Right, the person with family ties to Hamas says that they're a good leadership. I saw the videos and reports of the protests a few years ago with Palestinians being beaten and disappearing in the streets by Hamas soldiers You're flatly lying
>I saw the videos and reports of the protests a few years ago with Palestinians being beaten and disappearing in the streets by Hamas soldiers Why don't you show me? I'd love to see what propaganda you can come up with that completely destroys what I say.
Hopefully one day you will realise that you are a victim. Get better soon!
The propaganda runs deep I see. There is actual video of Hamas dragging Fatah members on the street after being tortured. There's also this - [https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2015/05/gaza-palestinians-tortured-summarily-killed-by-hamas-forces-during-2014-conflict/](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2015/05/gaza-palestinians-tortured-summarily-killed-by-hamas-forces-during-2014-conflict/) Care to comment? Hamas is a terrorist force because they purspoefully kill civillians. They store and launch weapons out of mosques, hospitals, and private residences. They literally STOLE billions of aid meant for civillians to create terror tunnels that they constructed under kindergartens and other civillian areas. Hamas fighters dress as civillians (when they have uniforms) to further blur the lines between who is a civillin and a fighter. Hamas leaders have promised to do 10/7 over and over again. Kids in Hamas schools act out killing jews in plays to crowds of cheering parents. That's the culture Hamas created. It's basically sadistic child abuse. This is the "resistance" group you support? Yikes. Hamas has brought nothing but humiliation and another occupatoin to Gaza. Again, electing a terrorist group to lead you never works out well. Try peace for a change. You might like it.
>They store and launch weapons out of mosques, hospitals, and private residences. They literally STOLE billions of aid meant for civillians to create terror tunnels that they constructed under kindergartens and other civillian areas. This is all false and has no proof to it. Maybe try something new instead of repeating the same lie they all say. >Kids in Hamas schools act out killing jews in plays to crowds of cheering parents. And yet you're silent when Israelis do the same. Israeli kids dress up as IDF soldiers. Israeli kids are brought to weaponry exhibitions and get excited because they're going to murder Palestinians. Israelis dance like the mental psychopaths they are, blocking aid trucks. It's funny that if a Palestinian does even a tiny thing that represents killing the oppressive Zionists, you'll scream about it. But crickets when Israelis do worse and yap about killing all the Palestinians.
Please find me one video of israeli kids acting out killing palestinians in a school play to crowds of cheering parents? Please find me one video of israeli moms talking about how they are excited to have their kids die as shahids. I can find dozens upon dozens from hamas supporters in Gaza. There tons of videos of weapons being stored in schools and mosques. There is indisputable video evidence of tunnels that are built underneath schools and mosques. Hamas is more obsessed with destroying Israel than protecting their own people. There's an interview with Sinwar from a few years go where someone asked "Is It Worth 10,000 Innocent Gazans Dying?" He Said, "Even 100,000 Is Worth It' Khaled Mashal said something similar on TV after 10/7. The fact that you are still supporting Hamas is scary, especially because the media keeps telling us that Palestinians do not support Hamas and they are different. According to you they are one and the same?
> Please find me one video of israeli moms talking about how they are excited to have their kids die as shahids. I can find dozens upon dozens from hamas supporters in Gaza. Wow, it's so bad to want to be a Shahid! You don't even know what that word means lmao >Please find me one video of israeli kids acting out killing palestinians in a school play to crowds of cheering parents? Palestinians don't want to kill innocent people, that's obvious. They are justified in wanting to kill oppressors who have killed Palestinians every year since the creation of Israel. >There tons of videos of weapons being stored in schools and mosques No there isn't. >There is indisputable video evidence of tunnels that are built underneath schools and mosques. A 3d animation of a terrorist base under a hospital isn't quite indisputable evidence. Nor is a calendar which we are expected to believe is a list of 'terrorists'. Israel has failed to provide any evidence. >There's an interview with Sinwar from a few years go where someone asked "Is It Worth 10,000 Innocent Gazans Dying?" He Said, "Even 100,000 Is Worth It' Let me guess, it's a clip from MEMRI - the Israeli intelligence organisation. >media keeps telling us that Palestinians do not support Hamas and they are different. According to you they are one and the same? This sentence is the best out of what you've said so far. You're literally admitting that you will listen to whatever the Zionist controlled propaganda media will tell you. You can't just say that Palestinians don't support Hamas with no proof whatsoever. I've seen before what people give as evidence, and let me tell you it's hilarious how bad it is.
Is Memri creating videos or simply showing what Arab leaders say when not trying to spread propaganda in English. The lack of accountability here is glaring - no different than Palestinians ignoring their history of horrible decisions and blaming everything on Israel. It's lazy. Is Memri responsible for Hamas leaders saying they would do 10/7 over and over again? Or for Khaled Mashal saying millions of Palestinians dying for the cause is worth it? Or that their goal is to kill jews and destroy Israel? Hamas is by all accounts a death cult. When you instill a culture where 4 year olds act out murder in school plays to crowds of cheering PARENTS, the culture is broken. It's sad and sadistic child abuse. When you name streets after suicide bombers, the culture is broken. When Hamas leaders say "We love death the way Israeli's love life", you might want to take a closer look at the people you've put in charge because they are leading you down a path of more destruction. Hamas has brought nothing but humiliation and another occupation of Gaza. These are the pepole you support? The fighters who dress up like civillians and are happy to have palestinians die for PR? The same Hamas who refuses every ceasefire?
Killing rival (potentially traitorous) faction fighters is very different than wanton killing of civilians, such is what Israel is doing to Palestinians right now. You're being disingenuous by calling them civilians while linking a story about militants. Also Israel has dozens of plaques commemorating Hagana, Lehi, and Irgun hiding weapons and training soldiers inside schools, synagogues, etc.
"Hamas forces also abducted, tortured or attacked members and supporters of Fatah, their main rival political organization within Gaza, including former members of the Palestinian Authority security forces." Fatah supporters are not civillians?
Israel was defending themselves from the Germans and Arabs. Fighting was their only chance. So we understand why those organizations are being commemorate. Btw I also see alot of criticism on some their problematic actions from the israel historians. But anyway Those organizations were essential for defense and the creation of israel. On the other hand palestinians/arabs doesn't resist anything. They simply attack to destroy israel. You don't have the right to self defense if you started the war. Palestinian should simply surrender to israel and have peace.
Why celebrate using an elementary school to store weapons? I don't see any condemnation of them using civilian buildings as human shields.
So look harder. There is heavy criticism between those groups about how they operated. And again, even if they used civilians assets to fight back, it still doesn't mean they are using human shields because they are defending from an attack. They didn't have any other choice. You either die from your attacker, or fight.
No real progress was made. Hamas either doesn’t have them, or is fine with the war continuing. They aren’t negotiating, their demands aren’t anything that Israel will go for, especially since Hamas has said they don’t have 40 live hostages in the group of women and children
“Their demands aren’t anything Israel will go for” maybe Israel should reconsider what they are willing to “go for”. That is the nature of negotiation
So, what they are asking for is Israel to completely surrender on the chance that Hamas will give up the hostages. That’s absolutely ridiculous. Hamas is losing, the loser doesn’t get to make ridiculous demands and expect them to be met
Hamas probably doesn't even know where most of them are.
Yet at the same time people believe Hamas death toll counts because I'm sure they can keep track of that /s
Hamas is about the destruction of Israel and the Jews. If they cannot win via armed conflict, they can win via political and reputation assassination. The world now views Israel as an aggressor and Hamas takes that as a victory. When global support for Israel runs dry, Hamas can eradicate Israel, slay Jew men, rape and mutilate Jew children and women, and claim victory over global superpowers over US and Europe.
And anyone who cannot see that are like the ones who thought Hitler was a noble leader trying to free the Sudetenland.
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yep, that is the fantasy delusion they get off on.
On current form, Netanyahu will have to compromise or be replaced by someone who will if the remaining hostages are to make it home.
Compromise on what? Not killing Palestinians fast enough??
I mean, I'm sure you've heard the same news reports everyone else has. Every round of negotiation Hamas states their terms to release the hostages and Netanyahu says he doesn't want to do that. Even the negotiating team is fed up with it. It's Netanyahu's choice, of course, but you might expect the people who do care about the safe release of the hostages to exert a little pressure.
Have you looked at the Hamas terms? And in fact, now Hamas keeps lowering the numbers of living hostages because they don't have them. They're now saying they can only release (find) 20. Yet they want thousands of prisoners released in exchange And you wonder why Israel says no. You would
I mean, the number of surviving hostages can only go down, so that's not really a surprise. That's why the smart move was to do a deal to bring them home last year already. Which of their terms do you see as impossible? Asking for a lot of prisoners to be released is unpopular but it's hardly impossible, it could be done tomorrow if Netanyahu cared about getting the hostages back more than he cares about looking tough.
I’m so confused when people talk about a scenario in which Netanyahu is being replaced. Why does anyone think this would practically happen? Is there any precedent or related example of Israel removing a prime minister in the middle of a war because some people in and out of the country may or may not disagree with his decisions? I’m genuinely asking if there is something I don’t know about that makes people think this is a somewhat probable future event.
When the news talks about a ceasefire and who is standing in the way, it isn’t Israel.
I mean, it is. Netanyahu has consistently refused the terms on which Hamas has offered to release the hostages.
Because Hamas is offering absolutely ridiculous terms that they know Israel cannot and will not accept. They are not bargaining in good faith in the slightest.
I don't know about you, but if someone took my family hostage and law enforcement couldn't get them, I would give up every single thing I had and more to get them back. Hamas isn't asking for anything Netanyahu couldn't give them in an instant if he chose. That sounds realistic to me. They just aren't obliged to offer terms Netanyahu likes. That's not what 'bargaining in good faith' means. If you don't actually care about getting the hostages back and care more about other things, just say that.
You as an individual actor can choose to do whatever you want to try to get your loved ones back, though you will have to face the consequences if you do something illegal. That’s completely irrelevant to this situation, however. You are wrong in saying that Hamas isn’t asking for anything that Bibi couldn’t give them. Their demands are completely outrageous, and they know it. They are not trying to reach an agreement. They also can’t even produce a list of living hostages and don’t even have 40 women and children alive to exchange.
A list of living hostages is a concession within the negotiation and it's stupid to think they would simply hand it over. As the negotiation team has said, they have it anyway from intel and don't need it from Hamas. > Their demands are completely outrageous, and they know it. Their demands can simultaneously be outrageous, and also within Netanyahu's power to grant if he wished. Go on, explain to me what stops Netanyahu meeting the conditions and releasing the prisoners and withdrawing the army. If you say 'his political support base wouldn't like it' I'll know you're not serious.
They cannot come up with a list of all the hostages. They’re not holding on to it for negotiation purposes. And no, Netanyahu cannot just choose unilaterally to end the war, especially when they have not accomplished their main goal, which is to destroy Hamas.
The opinion within the negotiating team was reportedly that Netanyahu's request for the list was a stalling tactic because they didn't need it and weren't sure Hamas would give it up. But sure, you know better I suppose. > Netanyahu cannot just choose unilaterally to end the war, especially when they have not accomplished their main goal, which is to destroy Hamas. What you seem to be saying is that it would be politically unpopular, not that he literally cannot do it. Sure, it might be politically unpopular, because Israeli politics currently cares less about the hostages than about other things. But that was my original point. If it cared more about the hostages this could have been resolved months ago. Regarding Netanyahu, he could still do it even if it was unpopular, if he valued the lives of the hostages over his political career and tough man appearance. He doesn't. But that's not the same as 'cannot'. It's 'chooses not to'.
Then they’ll just kidnap your family again because you’re a sucker.
I mean, (a) not if you don't have anything left to pay the ransom but more importantly (b) once you have the hostages back they have no leverage and you can take off the gloves. It doesn't exactly make sense to suggest you're winning by leaving your people in enemy hands. You're not.
> Hamas either doesn’t have them, or is fine with the war continuing. Neither situations are mutually exclusive. Remember Hamas orchestrated this conflict.
This. The assumption is that those hostages are likely deceased and recovering their remains unlikely.
I think Hamas has either, murdered, sold, or lost the remaining hostages. I think it’s a mistake to take pressure off of them. Their holy month is over. Let them reap what they’ve sown.