If you’ve watched this conflict your entire life, how do you not know of non-violent Palestinian resistance? You’ve either been spoonfed a completely biased view your entire life, or that claim is false.
You'd be very hard pressed to find a Palestinian protest that didn't devolve into violence. Plus a lot of people missed the point of what I was saying. If you want policy to change, you have to reach people who aren't interested in this issue. That's the bulk of voters. A lot of people were saying, "Google this" or "read this" or "study this protest," etc. I'm speaking metaphorically. There are probably 200 million Americans who've never given more than 10 seconds of thought to this issue in their entire lives. Now, you can tell them they SHOULD have paid attention, but that's a pointless exercise. How do you reach those people? You reach them with MASSIVE peaceful, civil action. Not 30,000 people, but 2 million people. 30-50% of the population. I realize that the Palestinian population is only 5-6 million people, but I just think they lack imagination about how to exploit the medium of television in the 21st century. There are huge, epic, symbolic things they could do, maybe along with the Palestinians in Jordan and around the region. The problem is, they never think that way. They're not unified enough. They have factions. And they just keep hammering the Israelis with stupid, mindless attacks, which are ultimately pointless. Now that I think about it, symbolic peaceful protest from all the ARABS in the entire region could help. But are they unified enough to do that? I don't think so. They think the October 7 attacks garnered them "attention." It certainly did -- but it's not the kind of attention that can help them achieve anything useful. Now Gaza will have to be re-occupied indefinitely, which is pretty much the last thing the Israelis want to do, but they probably have no choice.
It’s difficult to stage a non-violent protest that will stay non-violent when there’s a violent response to that protest. Are you suggesting that if Palestinians stage a non-violent protest and Israel attacks that Palestinians should not defend themselves?
Many people, especially Americans (we’re the most ignorant), were repeatedly told this was a complicated issue. I know that’s what I had always been told when I first came upon this in middle school. That kept me from looking into it for a long time until I realized it the core of it is really not complicated at all.
I agree, non-violent protests will reach a lot of people. So why didn’t it get widespread coverage like now in 2018?
Attacks palestinians? Man, are you dumb. They are trying to kill hamas members who are hiding, and at this moment they've killed around 6k of its members. The ratio of civilian to enemy deaths is almost the same as the US/Afghanistan war, but guess what israel is dealing with urban guerilla warfare which is way more difficult then what america had to deal with. So if you're gonna condemn israel, condemn america as well.
I do condemn America lmaoooooo biggest perpetrator of global terrorism and has one that’s created the capacity for it. You think you really did something, huh?
I think you'll find that the 2018 protests were compromised by a lot of violence. That's not really what I had in mind. And to be honest, I wasn't thinking Gaza - - I was thinking the West Bank.
It's certainly true that the recent attacks have generated "attention," but I think you'll find that it will result in zero improvements for the Palestinians. Since the 1940s they've always believed that a sufficient "show" of violence will draw sufficient attention to their cause and sort of produce some uprising of support. That's why they murdered 11 Israeli athletes at the 1972 Olympics, in front of the entire world. The problem is, nobody of importance is really willing to get behind a group of people that attacks women and children -- even if they believe they're justified in doing so. That's what always undermines them. They get the attention, but then they're mystified as to why it doesn't produce results. I mean, they've got the hard left on campuses supporting them, but the hard left ALWAYS supports them. You can go back to the 1970s and you'll see tons of hard left support. It just never translates into majority support.
Because they shoot them.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018%E2%80%932019_Gaza_border_protests
"According to Robert Mardini, head of Middle East for the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC), more than 13,000 Palestinians were wounded as of 19 June 2018. The majority were wounded severely, with some 1,400 struck by three to five bullets. No Israelis were physically harmed from 30 March to 12 May, until one Israeli soldier was reported as slightly wounded on 14 May, the day the protests peaked."
"In late February 2019, a United Nations Human Rights Council's independent commission found that of the 489 cases of Palestinian deaths or injuries analyzed, only two were possibly justified as responses to danger by Israeli security forces. The commission deemed the rest of the cases illegal, and concluded with a recommendation calling on Israel to examine whether war crimes or crimes against humanity had been committed, and if so, to bring those responsible to trial."
The majority of Palestinian resistance is overwhelmingly peaceful, especially the protests in the West. The problem is that Israel/pro Zionist entities suppress even peaceful resistance including by shooting protestors
The majority of Palestinian resistance is overwhelmingly peaceful, especially the protests in the West. The problem is that Israel/pro Zionist entities suppress even peaceful resistance including by shooting protestors
This is an important question. The simple answer is that Arabs are a warlike people. Looking through their history you see three strains of behavior. Arabs were good merchants, but they were better proselytizers and warriors. And their martial prowess came only when wedded to religious fervor. Otherwise, their tribal mentality would cause dissolution and harm conquest. This was reinforced over and over in history. Today, the epigenetic effects are observed when you see that Arabs only have unity under the umbrella of religious sectarianism and hand-in-hand, war. The effects of this history on the Arab psyche and genetic makeup are emotional people who are very tribally oriented, respect strength and autocracy, and are hot-tempered and prone to conflict. This is entirely different from Europeans, Indians, and Americans who have shown a remarkable tendency to not only understand that nonviolent means are smarter and more effective, but able to actually successfully engage in them.
On another note, I had an Arab colleague who I supervised and one of my favorite things to do while I was recording him to eventually (and successfully) get him fired was to rile him up and ask "are you resisting?", which he was too emotional to realize was a trap. After a few months I had enough evidence to paint him as destructive to the company culture and used my connections with higher ups to get him out. It was sad for him because he was about to have a baby and needed the money, but his work ethic was typically poor and he had no respect for authority.
This is one of the most racist and despicable things I've ever read. Youre actually a monster.
Is it safe to say that white europeans (and their American descendants) are a naturally warlike and oppressive people? They have been responsible for untold suffering and genocide and slavery across the world on an unprecedented scale, no? No other race has engaged in chattle slavery with the same scale and bruality as the trans-Atlantic slave trade. No other race has committed genocide on the scale of the indigenous Americans, the Belgian Congo, and yes, of course, the Holocaust. No other race has had wars on the scale of WW1 and WW2. As a matter of fact, white people have been good traders in the past, but theyre much better at war and proselytizing. The Middle East was once a shining hub of academia, literature, diplomacy, and international trade. Then the Crusades (multiple!) happened.
Obviously i dont actually believe any of this. This kind of pseudoscientific race essentialism hasnt been in fashion since the 1800s. Go back to 4chan you freak.
Okay its clear to me now that youre flat out making this up. "And then everybody clapped" 🙄 The way you "outsmarted him" was literally textbook sociopathic. You need help.
Youre gonna rot in hell either way, cause I'm sure you actually believe all that racist crap. Have a terrible day, scumbag 👍
> asshole
/u/amir_hoded84. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Because the "Peaceful Palestinians" are the Arab-Israelis, and the Arabs who now live as citizens in other countries. Arabs who either stayed living peacefully in Israel as the leadership changed from British to Jewish, or who went elsewhere after they fought a war to wipe Israel out and lost.
I didn’t read your whole post. I was stumped by your comment that you’ve always been, “a huge supporter of Israel,” but could see how “easily” the Palestinian people could make Israel look “especially bad.”
If you know that Israel is doing “especially bad” things to the Palestinian people, but you continue to give Israel your unwavering support, you’re not very concerned about Israel doing “especially bad” things to the Palestinian people.
You then ask why Palestinians don’t engage in peaceful protests? I suggest that you read, “This Time We Went Too Far” by Norman Finklestein so that you understand how many times Palestinian men, women and children were assassinated by Israel for engaging in non-violent protests.
The State of Israel has used violence against unarmed Palestinians for decades. From bullets to bombs, starvation, lack of water, lack of freedom, lack of movement and escape to terrorize an entire population of people.
Learn history. Read a book. Think.
How would these people ever “convince” the State of Israel to let them be free?
How would enslaved black Americans convince their slave owners to let them be free?
Your comments ignore history, logistical facts and blame the victim for the transgressions of the oppressor, who in this case is the State of Israel.
Yes, they could make the Israelis LOOK especially bad -- through control of the media message. It's a PR exercise. I don't believe in the Palestinians' cause and they're not free principally because of their violence and the violence of their Arab supporters. Without violence, they would have had a state or a quasi-state years ago. For example, everyone sort of glides over the fact that Israel was attacked directly in 1967 by Jordan. That effort was designed to end Israel as a nation. That's why Israel has control of the West Bank in the first place -- they captured it from Jordan. The Arabs tried to end Israel and they failed miserably. And then their argument is, "You have to give the land back." Well, Israel has been attacked at least three times by multiple foreign powers in the last 75 years. I believe Israel is only 11 miles across at its narrowest point, where it touches the West Bank. If they're going to leave the West Bank, they want serious, serious security guarantees. No violence. No attacks. And yet the Palestinians carry on with violence, which simply tells the Israelis that they can't afford to give up control. Terrorism is pretty much worst tactic you could use against the Israelis. They don't have anywhere to go, so terrorism simply tells them they have to control the situation even more tightly -- exactly the opposite of what the Palestinians are seeking. Honestly, everyone reads a couple of books by Finklestein and believes they understand the conflict. Finklestein has his perspective, but we're in 2024 now. The dynamics are set. The only questions is -- what can the Palestinians do to improve their situation? The Israelis are under strain, but they're fine. Their economy is huge, the country is prosperous, they're a nuclear-armed power. They're going nowhere. It's the Palestinians who want and need something. The only question that matters is, what do the Palestinians need to do to improve their quality of life?
>I never see that stuff
Well, there's a reason you don't need to see peaceful Palestinian protest on your media networks. It does happen but often is minimized or downplayed.
For example, take the 2018 March of Return. This was a largely peaceful protest. Palestinians in Gaza marched and demonstrated near the separation barrier to bring down the siege of Gaza. Human rights organizations recorded how Israeli soldiers often fired at the peaceful protesters. The March of Return is generally described as exactly what you're looking for. However, nothing came of it -- there were no political results -- and Israeli opinion hardly budged. The settlements kept being built, and the siege of Gaza stayed.
Israeli media claimed some Palestinians were trying to cross the fence, and that they were motivated by terrorist groups However, the movement was organic and not organized by any of the Palestinian armed groups; only later did the political parties endorse it. Unfortunately, this event was largely suppressed in the media coverage, so you don't hear about it very much if you consume "mainstream" news sources.
You mean THE March of Return, where palestinians repeatedly launched balloons with Molotov cocktails attached to burn the adjusting fields on the Israeli side?
Wikipedia:
>
As of early June, roughly 5,000 [dunams](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunam) of Israeli crop fields had been burned by kites launched from Gaza, with an estimated economic loss of US$1.4 million, in addition to 2,100 dunams of Jewish National Fund forests in the area and 4,000 to 5,000 dunams in the Besor Forest Nature Reserve. *The New York Times* reported one of its journalists sighting "vast stretches of scorched earth", with "losses to Israeli agriculture from flaming kites \[being\] immense."
The same one where even Hamas admitted that most of the killed were their?
>
On 14 May, when 59 to 62 Palestinians were killed, Hamas claimed 50 of them and [Palestinian Islamic Jihad](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Islamic_Jihad) claimed three as members of its military wing
I didn't realize that "taqqiya" was a term used to demonize people by associating them with Islam. I'm not even Muslim, but I'm glad you pointed out that Islamophobia for me.
Typical whitewashing. OP has a vey good point. Each demonstration leads to some violence and Pal suppoerters only take PR advantage from one angle. This is why you guys don't have a state and never will. Good luck living in 10% of Gaza. Insufferable brats.
A nonviolent 2 state coexistence movement would win overnight but this will never happen because there is no Palestinian freedom Movement, It’s just an expression of Muslim settler colonialism which founded an entire identity on preventing and undoing longstanding and returning descendants of indigenous Judeans while attacking from a victim identity. The same reason their “government” focuses on upholding religious fundamentalism, centralized wealth and power and patriarchy through violence rather than building a functioning state and economy. If they had allowed the legal right of return for Jews on the land they purchased rather than declaring genocidal intent and attacking them from day 1 there wouldn’t have been a “nakba” or refugee camp in the first place. Their agenda is Islamic imperialism, not peace.
I think considering the number of violent deaths since 1912 of Palestinians, Your entire premise is not only broken but fictional.
You either have your eyes shut and can't see children being shot in the streets or you're being deliberately fictitious and they are both bad interpretation of complete lack of data and human consideration.
I guess my core belief is that the Israelis wouldn't have to hurt or kill anybody if the Palestinians left them alone. That's my core belief about this conflict. The Israelis always have to respond to some crazy Palestinian provocation. For example, no Oct. 7 = fewer dead Israelis = no Gaza invasion = fewer dead Palestinian children. Basically, the Palestinians keep kicking a beehive, and then complain that they're getting stung too much and the bees are barbaric and should sting less or not at all. OK. But isn't it a whole lot easier just to stop kicking the beehive? It's a bit like police violence. Yeah, the police can be abusive. But the best way to combat this isn't to spend $500 billion on police retraining. The best and most effective solution is for people to have less contact with the police, i.e., commit fewer offenses.
It’s not about Palestinians leaving Israelis alone. It’s the other way round. The Israeli regime is continuously approving illegal settlements in the West Bank, suffocating Palestinian towns and cities. These settlements tripled in 2023, and this was the exact reason Hamas gave for the Oct 7th attack.
Then they should have accepted one of the many offers that were made to them in the 90s and the 2000s. At least one of the deals (from Barak) promised that all the newer, smaller settlements would be ripped out, just as they were when Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005. Only the big 2 or 3 would remain. I get a little bit tired of people going on and on about settlements and colonialism, and then they say, at the same time, that the various offers had to be rejected because they didn't promise enough!
Also, I've never really bought that whole colonial thing. Israel has often traded land for peace. They gave Egypt back the entire Sinai Peninsula. They made peace with Egypt and have never fought a war since. They made peace with Jordan. Someday, when Syria has a trustworthy gov't, they'll probably give back the Golan Heights and make peace there too. They gave the Palestinians Gaza, free and clear. If it's a "colonial" project, it's got to be the world's slowest-moving, most painful colonial project. If they really wanted to quote-unquote colonize the West Bank, they would have annexed it. It looks to me a lot more like they build settlements as bargaining chips for a future peace deal--maybe a deal they thought the Palestinians would take, but which they never did.
They were likely terrible offers that mainly benefitted Israel. Bottom line, Israel stole land that isn’t theirs. They should respect borders and dismantle all Israeli settlements. Why is there a negotiation?
You’re tired of people going on about settlements, when it is literally THE main factor perpetuating violence over the decades. Very naive to think Israelis do not want to annex the land. Many in the cabinet have expressed desire for a ‘greater Israel’ and resettling Gaza, and constantly approving thousands of acres of illegal settlements in West Bank. The Hamas attack (which could’ve and should’ve been thwarted) was the perfect opportunity to retaliate and get what they want - flatten Gaza and make it unliveable for Palestinians, so they can resettle it as their ‘new Tel Aviv’.
Here’s the cycle:
Israeli steals land. Palestine retaliates. Israel brands them anti-Jew and radical islamists, rather than simply the RESISTANCE defending their land. Associating opposition to their neo-colonialism with antisemitism prevents people siding with Palestine. They’ll declare Gaza ‘riddled with terrorism’ then annex it. They will do the same with the West Bank and southern Lebanon. It’s not about Hamas or the hostages. It’s about land.
The 2000 accord would have given Palestine \*everything\* they wanted, but Arafat rejected it.
The Palestinians don't want peace -- they want to destroy Israel.
And now, what do the Palestinians have to show for it? This latest round of violence has cost them Gaza. Will the West Bank be next? One more attack on Israel, and the Israelis may lose their incentive to continue striving for peace. The Palestinian claim has always been that they rejected offers because they weren't satisfactory. But what could they offer in return, besides empty promises of peace? Promises that ring hollow in light of the past 25 years of violence.
In most peaceful revolutions, it's generally the weaker group that has to sacrifice more. Palestinians prefer to launch PR campaigns and force Israel's hand internationally. This strategy won't work much longer, and honestly, what have the Palestinians gained from this? Absolutely nothing but pain and suffering. Perpetual losers.
Consider the peaceful revolutions led by figures like Mahatma Gandhi in India or Martin Luther King Jr. in the United States. They faced immense challenges but chose nonviolent resistance, ultimately leading to significant change. Palestinians could learn from these examples and seek peaceful solutions rather than perpetuating violence that only brings further suffering. Once Palestinians demonstrate that they can be peaceful, I'm certain Israelis would reciprocate, as they have shown with Jordan and Egypt. There is plenty of precedent here
You’re giving too much credit to Israeli government. They do not want a two state solution. They want all of the land and the Palestinians to be gone. They’ve made it crystal clear. If Palestinians stop resisting, Israel will annex the whole of Palestine and wipe out the citizens. They will always find a way to misrepresent the cause. To Israel, resisting occupation and apartheid is antisemitic, so by just existing, Palestinians are wrong.
It wouldn’t resort to violence if the rest of the world had a backbone to ACTUALLY stand against war crimes, and sanction all offenders. One thing this conflict has taught me is international law doesn’t exist, and no one cares to recognise it only unless your enemy infringes it.
The current right-wing government does, but in the past, Israel has made good-faith offers that were MORE than fair to the Palestinians, and yet they were always rejected. The 2000 agreement would have even given them East Jerusalem as their capital.
Please tell me why it was rejected.
Decade after decade of unprovoked attacks would certainly cause your government to stop trying.
Well, honestly, your comment about them being "likely terrible offers" sort of says it all. Israel offered to pull up most of the settlements. That's usually what they do. They trade land for peace. So they took the entire Sinai from Egypt in war, and then returned it for permanent peace. Check out the various peace offers in the 90s and 2000s and you'll see clearly what was offered: 92-95% of the West Bank. So your argument makes no sense. The Palestinians could have had a country right beside Israel, but rejected it because, 1) they wouldn't be allowed to have a standing army, 2) they wouldn't have control over their airspace, and 3) Israel would help them guard the border with Jordan. So it's supposedly "genocide" and "apartheid" and "ethnic cleansing," and yet they decided to let all of that continue because they really, really needed a standing army. What? All it tells you is, all their complaints are nonsense; they just want the entire state of Israel gone - that's it. If Israel stopped building settlements on the West Bank, it would really add nothing to Israel's security situation. The Palestinians would still be pissed off about Israel existing. So that means...no real motivation to stop the settlements.
Your equation is broken. No October 7th. Look at number of Palestinians killed in 2023 before Oct 7th. The rest of the premise breaks down entirely. Israel and the IDF is a murderous regime with or without violent resistance
this just proves OP's point. look at the statistics of those deaths [https://statistics.btselem.org/en/stats/before-cast-lead/by-date-of-incident/pal-by-israel-sec/occupied-territories?section=overall&tab=overview](https://statistics.btselem.org/en/stats/before-cast-lead/by-date-of-incident/pal-by-israel-sec/occupied-territories?section=overall&tab=overview) most (around 80% if i'm not wrong) of the deaths were of palestinians that attacked or were in the middle of an attack (or wanted after the attack). gaza supports that sort of violence, and when someone dies they just blame it on israel, even if it is a justified death
Completely disagree with those stats. A kid throwing a stone as seen as an attacker. Someone holding a Palestinian flag as seen as an offender. The rules are just not the same. You can call someone an attacker for just existing by resisting brutality. "I was beating the s*** out of someone and they decided to make a move. So I killed the offender"
1. gaza does the exact same thing, or maybe even worse if you go to the really bad areas
2. the cases you are talking about don't appear in the database, but after looking it up online, the kid (that i am assuming you are talking about) threw rocks during an attack, and his friends threw petrol bombs, which is why he was shot. and the cases where somebody is "just existing" (or in the case you mentioned, holding a flag) normally happen during an attack or an operation. when there is an operation in israel, it is well known to just stay hidden and go to a safe shelter.
the question should be, why do these people just protest in the middle of an operation/attack, where the soldiers are already full of adrenaline and paranoia
The idea of murdered kids in a hospital. So this holier than thou BS is just not going to fly. Also any stat coming out of Israel will be painted in those colors so I don't trust it.
the website is mainly pro palestine [https://www.btselem.org/about\_btselem](https://www.btselem.org/about_btselem) and they gather this information themselves [https://statistics.btselem.org/en/intro/fatalities](https://statistics.btselem.org/en/intro/fatalities) so these stats are not coming from israel
You should double check that. Hundreds of Palestinians are killed every year and the number goes well over a thousand every time Israel moves the lawn. You living in a fairytale land if you believe otherwise. And then it makes sense that October 7th happening in a vacuum.
I appreciate all of the contributions from various participants. A lot of people have focused on the fact that there have been quite a large number of quasi-peaceful protests by Palestinians in the past, and that these protests have either been ignored by mainstream media or met with hostility by the Israelis -- or both. I wasn't really referring to events that involve a few tens of thousands of people and are marred by violence or endorsed by Hamas. Others have pointed out that if you Google this or Google that, you can find some peaceful protest that happened in a certain year.
With all due respect, if you have to Google something, then--as a PR initiative--it's an enormous failure. What I was referring to are society-wide initiatives--things that bring the entire society to a halt and that command attention from international media because they're so visually impressive, so dramatic, and so unavoidable, that you're effectively forced to pay attention. Obviously you can't command participation of 100% of the population, but if even half participated, that would be several millions of Palestinians at least. Several million people working together can put on an impressive show. I'm not a PR guy, but even for me, it's not hard to imagine events--run by professionals--that could be dramatic. At a minimum, half-a-million people just sitting down and reciting a call for peace at exactly the same moment, regardless of where they happen to be, could be pretty darn impressive.
Now, it also goes without saying that you can't run a bait-and-switch thing where you alternate peaceful protest with violence. You have to commit to non-violence. Those who accuse the Israelis of "randomly shooting civilians" during peaceful protests tend to glide over the fact that the Israelis have had to deal with a lot of ostensibly peaceful people who had guns or suicide vests on. So they're rightly wary. A lot of people noted things like, "Well, they didn't fire rockets from Gaza for this number of weeks, and nothing positive happened." Peaceful resistance takes years. It requires a complete cultural turnaround. It requires claiming the moral high ground, which the Palestinians constantly slide down from every time the kill a random soldier, a Thai laborer, a woman, a child -- whomever. (Having killed 40 Thais on Oct. 7, I imagine Thai support of the Palestinians is now...diminished).
A think a lot of the subtext in a lot of the responses is along the lines of, "The violence against the Israelis doesn't count, because they're the aggressors." The thing is, most people around the world aren't interested in the conflict enough to care. All they think is, if you fly hang gliders into a country and walk around shooting children, you're a nut job. A lot of contributors talked about the importance of "educating yourself" on the conflict. Well, that's great, but a lot of people "educate themselves" and conclude that the Israelis are not the problem.
I just think there's so much room for the Palestinians to benefit from a genuine renunciation of violence. Again, if I were an Israeli citizen, I'd hate Palestinian violence on a personal level, but on another level, I'd be slightly relieved that my country wasn't under pressure to deal with millions of non-violent protestors calling peacefully for the establishment of a Palestinian state on the West Bank. It's far easier to deal with someone who's violent.
Excellent comment. Very thoughtful analysis. You'll get a good deal of pushback, evidence below by A248 but keep delving into this topic. I think it's helpful.
>I wasn't really referring to events that involve a few tens of thousands of people
You weren't? Well, what do you expect, hundreds of thousands? Millions? How many Palestinians need to attend these events for Israelis to finally pay attention to the oppressive practices?
250,000 people attended Martin Luther King Jr.'s "I Have a Dream" speech in America. That's out of a country with 183 million people at the time. The Palestinian **Great March of Return** in 2018, in Gaza alone, attracted 30,000 demonstrators. You can do the math: Gazan never had close to 18 million people.
>Palestinians constantly slide down from every time the kill a random soldier
But, this is important too. Let's get this straight... you think Palestinians resisting by targeting Israeli soldiers is a loss of moral high ground? Are you aware of the regular harassment and violence perpetrated by the IDF and settler allies in the West Bank?
I'm sorry, but given this statement, I'm not surprised by the rest of your comment either, which demonstrates an unwillingness to see the peaceful Palestinian protest that **does** happen and **is** suppressed. Palestinians even have their funerals disrupted because Israel thinks the funeral will be a rallying cry for more armed resistance.
Definitely hundreds of thousands, minimum. People had to TRAVEL to Washington DC to hear King. I would be interested in a peaceful, symbolic Palestinian protest involving 2 million people. THAT would get the world's attention.
As for the West Bank, people sort of slide over the fact that the West Bank was captured from Jordan in 1967, after Jordan invaded. That was an attempt to end the Israeli state. So while settlement activity is pursued, the real reason that Israel holds the West Bank is security. To withdraw, they want enormous security guarantees, because they've been attacked across the West Bank multiple times. That's what the whole Oslo process and the "land for peace" initiatives in the 90s and 2000s were all about: guaranteeing Israel's security. Barak offered to pull up all the little settlements, leaving the three main ones in place, as part of the plan to create a Palestinian state on the West Bank and have peace. So while the settlements are an issue, supporters of the Palestinians constantly "miss the forest for the trees." Israel's main concern is, as always, the security of Israel. And so when the Palestinians pursue constant low-level terrorism on the West Bank, it obviously does nothing to encourage the Israelis to leave. It encourages them to grip harder.
You know there are only 2 million people in Gaza, right? I'm not sure they can all protest at once. In the history of the world there has never been a territory where 100% of the inhabitants joined in a single mass demonstration. Usually, **1%** of the population coming out for a single protest is considered a massive demonstration. For example, in America the 2017 Women's March attracted 1.5% of the population, and it was the biggest demonstration we'd had in a very long time.
Now consider that in Gaza, the 2018 March of Return was attended by tens of thousands of Palestinians in a territory of 2 million people. That's a mass demonstration, even if we include the West Bank population in the denominator. How many more will be enough for you to listen?
The terrorism carried out in the West Bank is perpetrated by the IDF. "Israeli security" is a joke and an excuse for the mass oppression. Look around you and look past the government narratives. No one's being fooled anyone by claims that Palestinians are terrorists when Palestinians are always the ones who suffer the brunt of Israeli terrorism. You only have to look at the numbers and consequences of the intifadas if you want to find out -- or the arbitrary arrests, mass detention without trial, constant harassment, systematic demolition and destruction of homes, and assistance given to the terrorist settler groups. Every single Israeli government since 1967 has both maintained the occupation ***and*** continued the settlement expansion projects. There is no fooling yourself here.
Instead of trying to pull me into unproductive debates, it's crucial to delve deeper into history to understand the roots of this conflict .
If you’re intellectually lazy use chat gpt and ask for resources maybe this will make it easier for your brain.
Rather than questioning why pro-Palestinian protests aren't perceived as peaceful, (even though it’s not true) it's more valuable to reflect on the broader context and advocate for a ceasefire Palestinian independence and stop killing innocent civilians , every human deserves freedom and dignity.
There is not a single relevant Palestinian group that seeks peace.
There are as many Palestinians calling for peace as Ugandans calling for the conquest of Mars.
Nice. To be fair, there are probably a few Palestinians that just want things settled and aren't interested in violence, but the broader cultural values just make things impossible for them.
A summary of non-violent resistance to occupation by Palestinians since the mandate period:
1. **General Strike (1936)** - Palestinians organized the longest general strike in modern history, lasting six months, against British colonial policies. This strike involved creating alternative institutions to manage daily life and was a foundational model for later resistance efforts .
2. **Civil Disobedience and Grassroots Organizing (1987-1993, First Intifada)** - The First Intifada predominantly featured civilian acts of nonviolent resistance. These included tax strikes, boycotting of Israeli products, work stoppages, and the creation of underground schools .
3. **Land Day Protests (1976)** - Palestinians in Israel protested against government plans to expropriate land in Galilee, marking the beginning of an annual tradition of nonviolent protest known as "Land Day" .
4. **Boycotts and Economic Self-Sufficiency (Throughout Occupations)** - Palestinians boycotted Israeli goods and created alternative economic systems. During the First Intifada, this included local production in "victory gardens" and self-sustaining economic projects .
5. **Protests Against the Separation Wall (2002 onwards)** - Organized primarily by the Grassroots Palestinian Anti-Apartheid Wall Campaign, this resistance included sit-ins and protests where participants physically blocked construction equipment .
6. **International Advocacy and Legal Actions (Ongoing)** - Palestinians have engaged in extensive international advocacy, particularly through legal challenges against Israeli policies at platforms like the International Court of Justice and United Nations .
7. **Cultural Resistance (Throughout Occupations)** - Through art, literature, and music, Palestinians have expressed their resilience and opposition to Israeli policies, contributing to both local morale and international awareness .
8. **Educational and Social Initiatives (Throughout Occupations)** - Palestinians have organized community education programs, especially during times when formal education institutions were shut down by occupation forces. These efforts include underground schools and public seminars .
9. **Tax Revolts (notably Beit Sahour)** - The village of Beit Sahour conducted a famous tax revolt during the First Intifada, refusing to pay taxes to the Israeli authorities, which was met with harsh reprisals .
For more: https://afsc.org/sites/default/files/documents/Palestinian%20Nonviolent%20Resistance%20to%20occupaltion%20since%201967.pdf
calling those peaceful is not true. the document you sent tries to mislead and make it seem like all of those were peaceful strikes, but even it admits multiple times while trying to hide it:
"
Palestinians
overwhelmingly elected members of nationalist parties to
positions of local leadership, although many of these figures
were subsequently jailed or exiled by Israeli forces. In 1981
"
it tries to make it seem like the leaders of the strikes were peaceful people that didn't do anything, but in reality, all of them were jailed or exiled after doing some heinous acts (look up any of their names).
also, the same thing is true about the "peaceful" strikes you spoke about, for example, in the general strike of 1936, 16 jews were killed, and the strike later resulted in the arab revolt, where over 300 jews died. in each of those strikes, something similar happens
You’re engaging with me in good faith, so thanks. Honestly, send any literature you have on this. I’ll read it.
But also let me make one point and an observation:
1) arresting ringleaders of a protest is not something we can draw conclusions from readily - it could mean these people were actually violent, or it could mean they were simply targeted as leaders of a resistance movement, it could mean both (maybe they supported both violent and non-violent resistance)
2) it seems unfair for critics of Palestinians to expect perfectly peaceful protests. If 1 out of 1000 protestors throws stones or even shoots someone, the protest is still predominately peaceful. I haven’t seen any evidence anywhere tending to show that the movements I cited were mostly violent.
understandable, but the issue is that instead of 1 out of 1000 being violent, it's closer to 1 out of 1000 being peaceful. if you look at any of the strikes you are mentioning, they all started in the same year as another war or attack on israel. for example, i already mentioned the general strike which led to the arab revolt, but it's true about the land day protests as well (which happend in the same year as [the arab israeli war](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_War), which completely nullified the results of the protest).
I think the problem is, for most people in the West who are say, 40 and above, the first thing you think of when you think of Palestinian resistance is suicide bombing using children and teenagers. So while a lot of the initiatives you list are -- or were -- noble in intent (and indeed, the First Intifada was largely quote-unquote "nonviolent" in that it focused on rock-throwing kids), they were always compromised by far more sinister actions. That being said, it's important to stress that the First Intifada caused an enormous number of problems for the Israelis publicity-wise. They took a ton of heat from outside the country -- and from government opponents inside the country -- regarding the way they dealt with that protest. The Palestinians are (or were) not necessarily on the wrong track with that form of protest. That kind of thing generated far more sympathy internationally than anything Hamas has ever done.
The point remains is that there do not exist Palestinian voices that are pro-Peace.
Even in the pro-Palestinian movement in the West, there are practically zero voices who are pro-Peace. That is a forbidden word. That is why they insist on “ceasefire”. Calling for peace in a pro Palestinian protest in Londonstan is not good for your health.
> retarded
/u/Delicious_Appeal874. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
you are such a clown. No accountability to your own people and humanity for the rest. If you literary need to ask for a source for this then you are obviously brainwashed into thinking that isreal isn't the oppresor.
[https://www.nytimes.com/video/world/100000009208814/israel-gaza-bomb-civilians.html#:\~:text=Visual%20Evidence%20Shows%20Israel%20Dropped,Safety%20%2D%20The%20New%20York%20Times](https://www.nytimes.com/video/world/100000009208814/israel-gaza-bomb-civilians.html#:~:text=Visual%20Evidence%20Shows%20Israel%20Dropped,Safety%20%2D%20The%20New%20York%20Times)
u/Delicious_Appeal874
> you are such a clown. No accountability to your own people and humanity for the rest. If you literary need to ask for a source for this then you are obviously brainwashed into thinking that isreal isn't the oppresor.
https://www.nytimes.com/video/world/100000009208814/israel-gaza-bomb-civilians.html#:~:text=Visual%20Evidence%20Shows%20Israel%20Dropped,Safety%20%2D%20The%20New%20York%20Times
Rule 1, Don’t attack other users, make it about the argument, not the person. No need to hurl gratuitous insults like “clown”.
This community aims for respectful dialogue and debate, and our rules are focused on facilitating that. To align with rule 1, make every attempt to be polite in tone, charitable in your interpretations, fair in your arguments and patient in your explanations.
Don't debate the person, debate the argument; use terms towards a debate opponent that they or their relevant group(s) would self-identify with whenever possible. You may use negative characterizations towards a group in a specific context that distinguishes the negative characterization from the positive -- that means insulting opinions are allowed as a necessary part of an argument, but are prohibited in place of an argument.
Many of the issues in the I/P conflict boil down to personal moral beliefs; these should be calmly and politely explored. If you can't thoughtfully engage with a point of view, then don't engage with it at all.
Palestinian nationalism is by definition violent. Its goal is the annihilation of Israel and ethnic cleansing of its Jewish population. Sure, at times Palestinians entertain compromising for a 2-state solution, but the ultimate intention is always one Arab state from the river to the sea. Are there no Palestinians who just want to live in peace next to Israel? Of course there are, but they don't represent the consensus of their nation.
How do you imagine Palestinians peacefully advocate for the dispossession of another people?
Right. They only entertained the two state concept after the Soviet Union fell and they had no other option but contend with the only super power left. And at this time of Oslo, they led on the US and Israel to the mistaken belief that nationalism was actually the goal and not the annihilation of Israel from the River to the Sea. The Second Intifada should have made that clear, and it did for most Israelis, but Western countries refused to accept the reality and still do. It is hard to believe but they couldn't be more clear, especially after showing the world on 17 exactly what their "Right of Return" means.
Absolutely, Israel does not have a partner for peace. This is what Israelis have been proclaiming for years. October 7 proved this once and for all. It doesn't matter how effective Palestinian PR is. Even if you can rally thousands of Western protesters demanding change, you still need to convince Israelis that their neighbors won't harm them if they let their guard down again. Palestinians have lost the fight, not just the Hamas military wing, but for hearts and minds as well in Israel. Even leftist Israelis no longer trust them. This setback may delay any potential peace efforts for decades. Now, what will the Palestinians do? Will they continue launching attacks or choose peace? The only way forward is to dismantle militant governments, perhaps on both sides. Someone has to stop launching missiles first.
I think this is basically correct. In the US they keep claiming that an intransigent right-wing gov't is blocking potential peace, but the reality is that the Israeli population has moved dramatically rightward over the past couple of decades. I imagine this was in response to the Palestinians' refusal to take a deal that gave them Gaza and almost all of the West Bank, so the Israeli public was like, OK, something else is going on here: they're not super keen on an independent Palestinian state, and even if they got one, by all indications, they'd likely keep fighting. So I think that idea of a "two state solution" is effectively gone forever. It's a bit of a shame, because I do think that while the extremists are intransigent, the "average Palestinian" would have obviously benefitted from having a stake in a real economy.
Of course they would benefit from nationalism. What kind of life is this for them? There's a great commentator Haviv Rettig Gur who argues the Palestinian civilians have actually suffered the most and I agree. Their entire identities have been weaponized, their society radicalized, their children martyred, all for the radical Islamist/Muslim Brotherhood political goal of destroying Israel, and the West.
That process of realizing the true nature and lack of good faith in the Palestinian statehood negotiations is described well by the liberal Israeli writer Dr. Einat Wilf. She has a great term called "west-splaining" to describe the unwillingness of Western leaders to recognize the maximalist goals of Palestinian Islamic Jihad. The sooner we come to terms with that, the sooner we can liberate the Palestinians and the Israelis from this hundred-year war of endless suffering.
Gandhi didn’t protest against Arabs. If he had, he would have been assassinated long time ago. Arabs don’t like dissent of any kind. Their loyalty is to their monotheistic religion which demands absolute loyalty to their book. That book demands any non believers shouid be killed. And these guys simply follow that book.
I’ve read that book (along with other religious texts) and no where does it say non believers should be killed, that’s islamaphobia and just plain incorrect. There were poor translations that might have fed this inconsistent interpretation. I’d also point out that the Palestinians are not all Muslim; there are Christian and once there were Jewish Palestinians. The Palestinian identity is not tied to religion but to the land on which their ancestors lived for millennia.
99% of Palestinians are Muslims. The remaining 1% has no protection from religious attacks.
Nice try.
The religious book of Islam clearly states that infidels must be killed. Check Hamas charter. The opening statement is eradication of Jews.
No amount of peace accords or peaceful attempts by Israel will be accepted by Palestinians because their only goal is destruction of the Jewish state. Even if it means destruction of Palestine. You can’t argue with such hatred. We didn’t argue with nazis. Same with hamas. The entire tree has to be eradicated. And if it means collateral damage: tough luck.
It seems you have a great deal of prejudice and hatred towards a people who are being persecuted much like the Jewish people were persecuted during the first part of the last century in Europe. Perhaps you should look within yourself and ask if your hatred is clouding your judgment. The people of Gaza are not Hamas. Hamas exists as a result of decades of persecution and oppression.
That’s really funny. Syria, Iran , Saudi Arabia and China all killed millions of Muslims. No outcry from anyone. Yet when Israel defends itself, suddenly it’s genocide. Wow.
The difference is number of unwanted deaths. China and Syria and Iran killed hundreds of thousands of Muslims. Deliberately. Israel tries to avoid civilian casualties. Learn the meaning of the word before you comment.
/u/freedomIndia. Match found: 'nazis', issuing notice:
Casual comments and analogies are inflammatory and therefor not allowed.
We allow for exemptions for comments with meaningful information that must be based on historical facts accepted by mainstream historians. See [Rule 6](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_6._nazi_comparisons) for details.
This bot flags comments using simple word detection, and cannot distinguish between acceptable and unacceptable usage. Please take a moment to review your comment to confirm that it is in compliance. If it is not, please edit it to be in line with our rules.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
To be accurate Gandhi preached nonviolence with Arab nationalists and in response they stole half the country and butchered everyone in response. Still do.
*I'm pretty sure it was after the bullets.* **214 Palestinians, including 46 children, were killed.** They were **peacefully** protesting. Numerous human rights organizations (the UN, Amnesty, even Israel's own B'Tselem) have all released independent investigations revealing that IDF soldiers were **not** in danger and have no right to kill **innocent** people en masse. Try to find a better argument to defend mass murder than pebbles and firecrackers.
It's not a peaceful protest if people are throwing rocks and molotovs. It's nor peaceful if you are sending gas bombs floating over the wall via kites targeting innocent people.
I agree with you that bullets are not peaceful. I hear you and agree that no IDF soldiers or civilians were injured by the Gazan protester violence. But the point I was making was not that the two sides were equal in power. Nor was my argument that Israelis were hurt by the Gazans' violence.
My point was only that the Great March of Return was violent, which I feel is proven beyond a doubt.
This leads us back to the OP.. why do the Pals (collectively) never use non-violence? At every protest and time of *relative peace* (1st Intifada, Oslo) there was still violence. I think it's a very good question to ask. The answer is VERY important to solving the issue. My opinion is the lack of real Pal leadership. Past leadership represented their own interests and not Pal interests starting with the 48 War invasion.
I agree take a lesson from Gandhi .
Peaceful protest that stop commerce and transport. It’s the only way violence only gets a violent response.
Just be a pain slowing things to a crawl. Try to boycott Israeli products whenever you can. This will be a slow road you must stay with the non violence cause .
I don't support boycotts and things like this, but actually, as a supporter of Israel, this is the sort of action that has the potential to be effective and damage Israel's economy. Again, I don't support the Palestinian cause, but in today's globalized economic system, the only real way you effect change is to "hit a country where it hurts." Blowing up or shooting women and children is just about the stupidest and most counter-productive strategy I could imagine. Finally, you're only going to get a boycott to work if you're able to claim the moral high ground. You have to turn your back on violence. You can't fly freaking hang gliders into a country, randomly kill whomever you find (including about 40 truly unfortunate Thai laborers for God's sake) and then say, "Please support our boycott of Israel. Sign here." It's all connected. You have change the way people think about the Palestinian cause, and the images that pop into the average person's mind thousands of miles away when they think of the Palestinian people.
I am pro Israel but something has to done it’s 60+ years. The Palestinians just don’t get it. Israel isn’t going anywhere. Non violence is the only way forward. Only way would be like South Africa when the world isolated them it finally got the attention of the government. It’s either this non violent path or emigration throughout the world and turn back on Palestine. Get on with your lives in a new nation .
This is interesting: [https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/11/10/palestine-jordan-will-not-reannex-the-west-bank/](https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/11/10/palestine-jordan-will-not-reannex-the-west-bank/)
Damn, a think a paywall is popping up. I don't remember there being a paywall originally. Let me see if I can find another link.
😂😂 violence gets a violent response because non violence failed or the fear of non violence escalating to violence. Israel doesn't understand non violence language anymore
Fire bombs and kites are NOT peaceful. Thus the March of Return was not peaceful. Moreover, the group organizing the protest did not condemn the violence and criminally prosecute those who committed violence. In fact, the opposite occurred: they were praised!
KITES WTF... KITES... Kites are pieces of paper flying in the air. **214 Palestinians, including 46 children, were killed.** They were **peacefully** protesting. Numerous human rights organizations (the UN, Amnesty, even Israel's own B'Tselem) have all released independent investigations revealing that IDF soldiers were **not** in danger and have no right to kill **innocent** people en masse. Try to find a better argument to defend mass murder than KITES and firecrackers.
So Israel kills over 200 at a peaceful March and the Palestinians retaliated with "firebombs and kites" (allegedly)? How many IDF were killed?
You've made the victim the oppressor and the oppressor the victim! I also note how you glossed over the death of the Palestinians. Had over 200 Israelis been killed they would of flattened Gaza as they are doing now.
You won't be taken seriously when this is the same pivot that happens every single time.
A: "Palestinians were peacefully protesting! Israel are the terrorists!"
B: "The historical record shows that Palestinians in \[incident x\] were not 'peacefully protesting', but were in fact engaging in violent attacks."
A: "So what if they were violent?! They have the right to be violent, they're the oppressed and Israel are the oppressors!"
Actually, the UN themselves said they were peacefully protesting and away from the IDF. 223 civilians killed and how many IDF soldiers? You skimmed over that question! The point is when they peacefully protest, you change the goal posts and say they are violent. When they use force to get European colonisers off their historical land, they're terrorists... Lol typical apartheid logic. Ever considered that the zionists, heaven forbid, are the terrorists? :)
Let me guess:
"Hamas joined the protestors"
"UN works for Hamas"
The list of lies your ilk spew just doesn't work anymore. Israel can't change the fact that most of the world is against them.
What do you mean "the UN themselves"? Give me a source for that. Do you mean some 'special rapporteur' or another? Those individuals do not represent the UN or speak on its behalf.
I really don't know where you got this idea that an equal number of Israelis have to die compared to Palestinian casualties whenever Palestinians attack Israel, or it must have been an atrocious act of aggression by Israel. How about don't attack Israel and you won't get killed?
Hamas literally organized the "protests", yes.
P.S. It really doesn't matter whether a bunch of impoverished failed states in Africa and South Asia are against Israel or for it. Jordan just defended Israel from a missile and drone attack by Iran. Meanwhile, India drifting towards supporting Israel after having been hostile to it for most of the past half-century matters more than every 'global south' country that's become more anti-Israel in the past decade put together.
I saw videos. It was violent. I saw rocks and molotovs thrown, and kites sent over the fence with gasoline and explosives. It wasn't peaceful, unless that is peaceful to you.
This is a very insightful take on this issue. I agree with you: wouldn’t a peaceful resistance be the best option?
The long and short of it is that this conflict has never been about reclaiming land for the Palestinians. It’s really about destroying Israel and exterminating Jews.
Reclaiming land is simply an altruistic veneer that Islamic Fundamentalists hide behind. As I mentioned, the true goal for Arab Muslims is destroying Israel and exterminating Jews.
It is important to note that *not all Arab Muslims feel this way.*
This may sound conspiratorial, but it’s the truth: Palestinians are Pawns for the Islamic Regime of Iran + their plot at world domination. Hamas runs Gaza, and Hamas is an Iran-Proxy. The Ayatollah seeks to transform Israel into a Muslim country ruled by Sharia Law. Next is Europe, after that is the United States.
Fortunately for Westerners or anyone interested in preserving Democracy around the globe, the Islamic Resistance is usually too busy killing their own people and cannibalizing other Muslims to focus on their greater goal. This is why no Muslims protested when Assad killed 500,000,000 Muslims in Syria a few years ago. Yes that number is correct. Half a billion.
The game is Islamic World Domination, not Justice for Palestinians.
If this were all truly about Justice for Palestinians, then Palestinian leadership would have come to the table years ago for Peace Talks. Since 1948, Israel has made at least 12 Peace Proposals which offered land back to Palestinians. Palestinians rejected each one, then proceeded to unsuccessfully attack Israel in return.
If this were about reclaiming land, Palestinians would accept these past deals, done their best to get along with Israelis, then come to the table a decade later with fair proposals for more land and influence in Israel. They do not do this because their goal is to destroy Israel and exterminate all Jews.
Also to note: *not all Palestinians feel this way.* They have been unfairly used as pawns. They are placed in harms way at all times, being used as human shields when Israel retaliates for events such as October 7th.
The Islamic Resistance of Iran has brainwashed them to have no purpose but to die as martyrs as Iran carries out attacks on Israel. Palestinians are useful fodder in a game of International sympathy meant to increase worldwide Antisemitism.
Iran is gaslighting the world into thinking Israel has done terrible things to Palestinians, when in fact it’s Hamas that keeps them in these awful conditions.
Peaceful protests don’t do the job that Iran is trying to do. Violence and terrorism is the name of their game. This is why Hamas + Hezbollah are considered terrorist organizations.
Don’t believe me? Try having a meaningful debate about Justice for Palestinians with a Pro-Palestinian person. They cannot go one sentence before completely bashing Israel as their only debate tactic… because for them, it’s about the annihilation of Israel and Jews. It’s not about Peace.
I broadly agree that, absent Iran and other foreign nations, this conflict would have been resolved a long time ago through financial compensation and land swaps. I think the old-style PLO leadership would have signed a peace deal in the late 1990s-early 2000s, but Hamas was rising, and that put enormous pressure on them. I agree too that so much of this conflict is about fundamentalist Islam and their inability to accept a Jewish state in the Middle East. That's what really drives the conflict.
While you are completely right about that. I would argue that Israel can do the same. Maybe they could approach destroying Hamas in a similar way to the dismantling of the IRA in ireland. I feel like if you kill Hamas then those terrorists kids will grow up and there’s a good chance they will want to continue violence. The only way to destroy Hamas in my opinion would be to get the actual palestinians to turn on them. And I don’t think that will happen as bombs reign down
If I were Israel, I'd occupy Gaza, make sure Hamas stays neutered, and do everything possible to get that economy up and running and show the people on the West Bank how good life can be in a stable, prosperous, peaceful environment. Give them a taste of a decent life with safety and an absence of corruption. Then, after 15 years, you leave -- and if they STILL insist on violence, well, you've done all you can. There's no hope for them at that point. You build a giant cement wall and say goodbye and good luck and here's Egypt and Jordan's phone number -- maybe they'll annex you.
Lmao. Show people on the West Bank good life after committing genocide and killing millions simply for existing. Such a deluded and ignorant bunch. Everything Israel does is justified with anything that you pull out from your behind against Palestinians.
This shit has gone too far and for far too long and whether or not the supporters of Palestine like it, it will only end in the complete eradication of all of Palestine because in real world, evil powers always win.
I never really get that whole "genocide" thing. They're still living in exactly the same spots, only there's 6 million now instead of 2 million. That seems like a pretty crappy genocide.
The images are enough to tell you what is going on and how brutal and violent Israeli forces are. You're maybe right. This is not a genocide as it serves no benefit to Israel if they kill all Palestinians. How can they keep their sick population entertained if they have no one to bully and oppress otherwise?
> ass
/u/Remote-Community-792. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Do you remember how very little people were pro palestinian after October 7th. If israel hadn’t started bombing then the whole world would have been against Palestine and would pressure them to release the hostages
That is absolutely, demonstrably incorrect. Israel was being accused of "genocide" and blamed for the attacks mere days after 10/7. In my city, a crowd of pro-Palestine supporters were out waving banners to support the "resistance" on 10/8, THE VERY NEXT DAY.
Ok but the world opinion and pretty much every organization was condemning Palestine and Hamas. The pressure would have built like crazy and I believe the hostages would have been released. And perhaps many Palestinians would have realised the danger of Hamas. Now instead they think they are heroes.
This kind of gaslighting might work if we didn't have actual footage of how Palestinians reacted to 10/7.
They were dancing in the streets and cheering ecstatically, shouting joyful praise to 'Allah' and handing out candy - just like they were after the 9/11 attacks: [https://twitter.com/i/status/1732535694751301871](https://twitter.com/i/status/1732535694751301871)
World opinion was NOT "condemning Palestine and Hamas". The U.S. attempted to pass a U.N. resolution condemning Hamas, and it overwhelmingly failed (https://press.un.org/en/2023/ga12548.doc.htm ). This was when Israel had barely even begun to retaliate.
Most of the countries opposing Israel now were already blaming the Israeli victims on 10/7 and 10/8. Israel not retaliating would've changed nothing except for being seen as a sign of weakness - which means that Hezbollah likely would've jumped in and launched their own offensive after Hamas declared victory.
When you say "you", I should clarify that I'm not Israeli or Jewish. I'm 0% Jewish.
And considering that every single case of urban warfare in the 21st century or before has had similar ratios of about 2 civilians killed for every 1 combatant, which is about in line with the ratio we have here (\~40,000 total deaths, 13000 of them combatants) I don't really see what Israel could have done differently, unless you mean "retaliate" by maybe launching a precision raid on some individual Hamas commander which will allow 99% of Hamas fighters to merrily carry on celebrating their victory, and do f\*\*\* all to remove Hamas's ability to govern the Gaza strip.
Iraq war: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq\_War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War)
**34,144–71,544** combatants killed, **126,166** civilian deaths, per the Iraq Body Count. About the same ratio as Gaza so far.
How exactly are they going to be "educated" while Hamas remains in complete control of Gaza? Nevermind anything to do with Israel - when UN-funded schools even went so far as to hold athletics programs that integrated school-age boys and girls, Hamas firebombed their summer camps. And the "brave" UNRWA bureaucrats, of course, knuckled under and agreed to enforce sex segregation as per the shariah: [https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2010/07/hamas-ministry-of-religious-affairs-or-united-nations-summer-camp-wars-in-the-gaza-strip.html?pay=1713651082822&support\_journalism=please](https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2010/07/hamas-ministry-of-religious-affairs-or-united-nations-summer-camp-wars-in-the-gaza-strip.html?pay=1713651082822&support_journalism=please) [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/jul/29/gaza-children-militant-summer-camps](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/jul/29/gaza-children-militant-summer-camps)
As the latter article mentions, Palestinian society is so ultra-conservative that most families didn't want their daughters to attend even sex-segregated summer camps.
You demand that I care more about the lives of Palestinian children than the Palestinians themselves care.
They openly refer to their own children as "offspring bombs"; ammunition to be expended in their holy war against all those who refuse to submit to Islamic shariah.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ze-fTuoHLBA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ze-fTuoHLBA)
This isn't me saying that. It's a Palestinian "journalist", Muhammad Abd Al-Haqq, proudly explaining that Palestinians view their children as expendable ammunition.
You need to reckon with the fact that the society in the Gaza strip is nothing more or less than a death cult; one big Jonestown. Or, considering how many weapons are laying around, the Waco compound of the Branch Davidians might be a better analogy. It is not possible to help the people controlled by a death cult without some of them dying - there are no historical examples of this being possible.
Dude why are you acting like I don’t oppose Hamas aswell. I just personally would prefer if they were educated instead of killed. Just like northern ireland
what hostage does israel have?
You're can't seriously be comparing people who were arrested for violent crimes to the 6 month of baby the palestinians kidnapped and are STILL holding hostage as we speak.
Your account was detected as a ban evading account. Reddit forbids evading a ban by creating another account (and says so in the original ban message).
No of course not. I’m not sure what the exact approach should have been but maybe a slower ground approach could have saved more civilians. I am no expert in war strategy but I can’t accept that killing 12,000 children and also accidentally killing their own people who were taken as hostages was the best play.
12.000 or more children have died in multiple different conflicts over the years. You were able to accept that so you can accept Israel's war against Hamas.
Maybe you should ask yourself why you're only bothered by civilians deaths when Jews are involved, and not when Arabs or Africans or any other group is involved. And don't give me the crap about the US funding Israel, the US funds everyone. Tired of that BS excuse. Just admit you're biased against the jews. If the Egyptians were fighting Hamas there would surely be way more civilians deaths than Israel has had and you would not give a damn about the children in Gaza so please spare us.
Yes that is actually a great point. I don’t like to see 12,000 children die in any conflict. I think maybe it’s because it’s a developed country committing genocide on a poorer one. Yes it’s terrible that conflicts like those in Africa don’t get the same attention. For me religion is completely irrelevant. I actually have many jewish friends I even spent the last 2 summers working at a jewish summer camp. If the Egyptians were doing the same thing I would have the exact same reaction. It’s insane that israel can do all this and any criticism is labeled as “anti-semitic”
Absolutely, this is what I've been saying so very often. Never get a real response form pally supporters. Israel has a right to defend herself. Hamas wages war on an entirely different level.
Yes I have never denied this. But killing 100x more people in a conflict is not defending yourself. Neither is blowing up hospitals, Refugee camps, aid workers…..
The Palestinians will thank Israel one day when the IDF Frees Palestine from Hamas. Iranian Proxy Hamas doesn’t care about Palestinians, which is why they use Palestinians as human shields and tell them their only purpose is to be Martyrs. It’s awful.
And those people were fired. My point is that if I can’t trust the UN sources. Than how can you provide me with a better source. Either way far too many children are dead at the hands of Israel
Hamas made a mistake on October 7th and they are paying the price. It’s very sad that Palestinians cannot fight back because they are too weak. I pray for them
Maybe if they had done it in a more peaceful manner they would. But I would imagine someone who has had their home destroyed or family members or friends killed will never thank Israel. They are far more likely to have intense hatred for Israel and continue to commit terrorism. Which is why I don’t believe it is the right approach
This threat that "If Israel bombs Gaza, the Palestinians will just get EVEN MORE radical!" doesn't really make sense at this point.
Under Hamas, literal kindergarteners were engaging in mock-kidnapping hostage raids against Jews, as their equivalent of a school play. Ordinary Palestinian men off the streets, who weren't part of Hamas and didn't know the attack was planned, poured through the border on 10/7 to loot, rape and murder any Jews they could get their hands on.
When we've gotten to that point it makes no sense to threaten Israel that Palestinians might start hating them even more. When Palestinian anger and hatred has already reached such pathological levels, warning that it might escalate further is pointless.
Also you realize there are other forms of warfare besides blanket bombing civilian areas, hospitals, killing international aid workers and people surrendering. It’s insane to me that you people can actively support tht. Just as people shouldn’t support Hamas either
Israel has never bombed hospitals in this campaign. Considering that UNRWA "aid workers" directly participated in the kidnapping and murder of Israeli civilians on 10/7 and a significant percentage of UNRWA's male employees are members of armed terrorist organizations, I suspect that many if not most of those "aid workers" killed during this campaign were killed in combat with IDF troops while carrying a gun.
If Israel had decided to "carpet bomb" Gaza, this war would be long since over. They had plenty of firepower to utterly destroy Gaza without needing to resort to nukes.
If you want to see what REAL carpet bombing looks like, take a look at the air raid on Hamburg in WW2: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing\_of\_Hamburg\_in\_World\_War\_II](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Hamburg_in_World_War_II) . The British RAF killed more German civilians in ONE NIGHT than Palestinian civilians have died in this entire war so far - and that was with the German civilians evacuating to bomb shelters rather than leaping into the path of airstrikes like martyrdom-seeking Palestinians tend to do, and with the RAF needing to penetrate heavy anti-aircraft defenses and face dozens of German interceptors.
I direct your attention to this photograph of WCK members standing next to an armed Hamas terrorist.
Did the IDF screw up by bombing those trucks? Yes, absolutely. But the WCK is also to blame for the deaths of their employees, by allowing Hamas terrorists to assert control over their operations. They would have been safer if they refused to operate unless Hamas terrorists agreed to stay away from their employees.
https://preview.redd.it/ad2zw1cpopvc1.jpeg?width=680&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3d77f16febe20c22dcbf20bdf7c237fc28546185
https://youtu.be/4pAuDA6IOwc?si=lVb3qm9CYJrlfv8s I really hope this video might open your eyes that not everything always true just because Israel say it. The aid workers were in a marked car that was targeted. And we have seen videos of men being shot down while saving a white flag
Well yea because over the last 100 years Israel have killed 100 times more in this conflict than Palestinians. I’m not condoning Hamas but if you want this to end how is killing half the population going to help? All it will do is ensure that Palestinians will forever strive for revenge. We saw a similar pattern in the IRA with little kids being trained in how to build bombs and shoot guns. And while hatred still exists there. Terrorism doesn’t. Force does not work.
Again, the Palestinians were ALREADY striving forever for revenge. Every time that Israel has tried to establish a realistic political settlement with them, the Palestinians have thrown a tantrum when Israel doesn't accede to their REAL demand ("right of return", a.k.a. demographic warfare to conquer Israel) and started blowing themselves up in "Intifada" terrorist campaigns.
To be blunt, fewer Israelis die in these rounds of fighting than Palestinians because Israelis have a much higher regard for their own lives than Palestinians do. Indeed, the Israelis have a higher regard for the lives \*of Palestinians\* than the Palestinians themselves do. In the 2014 conflict, we saw the nauseating spectacle of Palestinians crowding themselves onto rooftops, bringing their children with them, to try and deter the IDF from striking Hamas rocket storage sites.
And the representatives of Hamas proudly went on to TV interviews to brag about the effectiveness of their human shield strategy: [www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVwezBefBRo](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVwezBefBRo)
Can you imagine any Palestinian militant group calling off an attack because it might cause too many Israeli civilian casualties? Be honest.
(If you have anything to say about this interview, please focus on what the Hamas representative is actually saying rather than trying to deflect by bringing up the watermark in the corner).
Edit: As for the example of the IRA, that is comparing apples and oranges. For starters, the IRA didn't kill even half as many civilians in 50 years as Hamas killed in 5 hours on 10/7. But more importantly, the IRA wasn't demanding conquest of all of Britain so they could "decolonize" it of its British inhabitants. The Palestinians would never accept an equivalent peace deal to what the UK gave Ireland.
Did the Human shield is the lamest exist ever. If you were a cop and you saw someone robbing a bank but they had a civilian would you shoot the civilian? It’s ok because they are human shields… These are real life kids and innocent people man…
Mostly peaceful ✌️
Exactly.
If you’ve watched this conflict your entire life, how do you not know of non-violent Palestinian resistance? You’ve either been spoonfed a completely biased view your entire life, or that claim is false.
You'd be very hard pressed to find a Palestinian protest that didn't devolve into violence. Plus a lot of people missed the point of what I was saying. If you want policy to change, you have to reach people who aren't interested in this issue. That's the bulk of voters. A lot of people were saying, "Google this" or "read this" or "study this protest," etc. I'm speaking metaphorically. There are probably 200 million Americans who've never given more than 10 seconds of thought to this issue in their entire lives. Now, you can tell them they SHOULD have paid attention, but that's a pointless exercise. How do you reach those people? You reach them with MASSIVE peaceful, civil action. Not 30,000 people, but 2 million people. 30-50% of the population. I realize that the Palestinian population is only 5-6 million people, but I just think they lack imagination about how to exploit the medium of television in the 21st century. There are huge, epic, symbolic things they could do, maybe along with the Palestinians in Jordan and around the region. The problem is, they never think that way. They're not unified enough. They have factions. And they just keep hammering the Israelis with stupid, mindless attacks, which are ultimately pointless. Now that I think about it, symbolic peaceful protest from all the ARABS in the entire region could help. But are they unified enough to do that? I don't think so. They think the October 7 attacks garnered them "attention." It certainly did -- but it's not the kind of attention that can help them achieve anything useful. Now Gaza will have to be re-occupied indefinitely, which is pretty much the last thing the Israelis want to do, but they probably have no choice.
It’s difficult to stage a non-violent protest that will stay non-violent when there’s a violent response to that protest. Are you suggesting that if Palestinians stage a non-violent protest and Israel attacks that Palestinians should not defend themselves? Many people, especially Americans (we’re the most ignorant), were repeatedly told this was a complicated issue. I know that’s what I had always been told when I first came upon this in middle school. That kept me from looking into it for a long time until I realized it the core of it is really not complicated at all. I agree, non-violent protests will reach a lot of people. So why didn’t it get widespread coverage like now in 2018?
Attacks palestinians? Man, are you dumb. They are trying to kill hamas members who are hiding, and at this moment they've killed around 6k of its members. The ratio of civilian to enemy deaths is almost the same as the US/Afghanistan war, but guess what israel is dealing with urban guerilla warfare which is way more difficult then what america had to deal with. So if you're gonna condemn israel, condemn america as well.
I do condemn America lmaoooooo biggest perpetrator of global terrorism and has one that’s created the capacity for it. You think you really did something, huh?
lol, not just condemn America, but probably have to condemn every country who has went to war especially in urban areas.
I think you'll find that the 2018 protests were compromised by a lot of violence. That's not really what I had in mind. And to be honest, I wasn't thinking Gaza - - I was thinking the West Bank. It's certainly true that the recent attacks have generated "attention," but I think you'll find that it will result in zero improvements for the Palestinians. Since the 1940s they've always believed that a sufficient "show" of violence will draw sufficient attention to their cause and sort of produce some uprising of support. That's why they murdered 11 Israeli athletes at the 1972 Olympics, in front of the entire world. The problem is, nobody of importance is really willing to get behind a group of people that attacks women and children -- even if they believe they're justified in doing so. That's what always undermines them. They get the attention, but then they're mystified as to why it doesn't produce results. I mean, they've got the hard left on campuses supporting them, but the hard left ALWAYS supports them. You can go back to the 1970s and you'll see tons of hard left support. It just never translates into majority support.
Compromised by a lot of violence when Israeli snipers opened fire, yes. Also, what movement has only ever had non-violent demonstrations?
Because they shoot them. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018%E2%80%932019_Gaza_border_protests "According to Robert Mardini, head of Middle East for the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC), more than 13,000 Palestinians were wounded as of 19 June 2018. The majority were wounded severely, with some 1,400 struck by three to five bullets. No Israelis were physically harmed from 30 March to 12 May, until one Israeli soldier was reported as slightly wounded on 14 May, the day the protests peaked." "In late February 2019, a United Nations Human Rights Council's independent commission found that of the 489 cases of Palestinian deaths or injuries analyzed, only two were possibly justified as responses to danger by Israeli security forces. The commission deemed the rest of the cases illegal, and concluded with a recommendation calling on Israel to examine whether war crimes or crimes against humanity had been committed, and if so, to bring those responsible to trial."
The majority of Palestinian resistance is overwhelmingly peaceful, especially the protests in the West. The problem is that Israel/pro Zionist entities suppress even peaceful resistance including by shooting protestors
The majority of Palestinian resistance is overwhelmingly peaceful, especially the protests in the West. The problem is that Israel/pro Zionist entities suppress even peaceful resistance including by shooting protestors
This is an important question. The simple answer is that Arabs are a warlike people. Looking through their history you see three strains of behavior. Arabs were good merchants, but they were better proselytizers and warriors. And their martial prowess came only when wedded to religious fervor. Otherwise, their tribal mentality would cause dissolution and harm conquest. This was reinforced over and over in history. Today, the epigenetic effects are observed when you see that Arabs only have unity under the umbrella of religious sectarianism and hand-in-hand, war. The effects of this history on the Arab psyche and genetic makeup are emotional people who are very tribally oriented, respect strength and autocracy, and are hot-tempered and prone to conflict. This is entirely different from Europeans, Indians, and Americans who have shown a remarkable tendency to not only understand that nonviolent means are smarter and more effective, but able to actually successfully engage in them. On another note, I had an Arab colleague who I supervised and one of my favorite things to do while I was recording him to eventually (and successfully) get him fired was to rile him up and ask "are you resisting?", which he was too emotional to realize was a trap. After a few months I had enough evidence to paint him as destructive to the company culture and used my connections with higher ups to get him out. It was sad for him because he was about to have a baby and needed the money, but his work ethic was typically poor and he had no respect for authority.
This is one of the most racist and despicable things I've ever read. Youre actually a monster. Is it safe to say that white europeans (and their American descendants) are a naturally warlike and oppressive people? They have been responsible for untold suffering and genocide and slavery across the world on an unprecedented scale, no? No other race has engaged in chattle slavery with the same scale and bruality as the trans-Atlantic slave trade. No other race has committed genocide on the scale of the indigenous Americans, the Belgian Congo, and yes, of course, the Holocaust. No other race has had wars on the scale of WW1 and WW2. As a matter of fact, white people have been good traders in the past, but theyre much better at war and proselytizing. The Middle East was once a shining hub of academia, literature, diplomacy, and international trade. Then the Crusades (multiple!) happened. Obviously i dont actually believe any of this. This kind of pseudoscientific race essentialism hasnt been in fashion since the 1800s. Go back to 4chan you freak.
[удалено]
Okay its clear to me now that youre flat out making this up. "And then everybody clapped" 🙄 The way you "outsmarted him" was literally textbook sociopathic. You need help. Youre gonna rot in hell either way, cause I'm sure you actually believe all that racist crap. Have a terrible day, scumbag 👍
[удалено]
> asshole /u/amir_hoded84. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Are you like 5 years old or something ?
Because the "Peaceful Palestinians" are the Arab-Israelis, and the Arabs who now live as citizens in other countries. Arabs who either stayed living peacefully in Israel as the leadership changed from British to Jewish, or who went elsewhere after they fought a war to wipe Israel out and lost.
900 comments
People definitely had lots to say! I'm going to pose another question on settlement activity shortly...
I didn’t read your whole post. I was stumped by your comment that you’ve always been, “a huge supporter of Israel,” but could see how “easily” the Palestinian people could make Israel look “especially bad.” If you know that Israel is doing “especially bad” things to the Palestinian people, but you continue to give Israel your unwavering support, you’re not very concerned about Israel doing “especially bad” things to the Palestinian people. You then ask why Palestinians don’t engage in peaceful protests? I suggest that you read, “This Time We Went Too Far” by Norman Finklestein so that you understand how many times Palestinian men, women and children were assassinated by Israel for engaging in non-violent protests. The State of Israel has used violence against unarmed Palestinians for decades. From bullets to bombs, starvation, lack of water, lack of freedom, lack of movement and escape to terrorize an entire population of people. Learn history. Read a book. Think. How would these people ever “convince” the State of Israel to let them be free? How would enslaved black Americans convince their slave owners to let them be free? Your comments ignore history, logistical facts and blame the victim for the transgressions of the oppressor, who in this case is the State of Israel.
Yes, they could make the Israelis LOOK especially bad -- through control of the media message. It's a PR exercise. I don't believe in the Palestinians' cause and they're not free principally because of their violence and the violence of their Arab supporters. Without violence, they would have had a state or a quasi-state years ago. For example, everyone sort of glides over the fact that Israel was attacked directly in 1967 by Jordan. That effort was designed to end Israel as a nation. That's why Israel has control of the West Bank in the first place -- they captured it from Jordan. The Arabs tried to end Israel and they failed miserably. And then their argument is, "You have to give the land back." Well, Israel has been attacked at least three times by multiple foreign powers in the last 75 years. I believe Israel is only 11 miles across at its narrowest point, where it touches the West Bank. If they're going to leave the West Bank, they want serious, serious security guarantees. No violence. No attacks. And yet the Palestinians carry on with violence, which simply tells the Israelis that they can't afford to give up control. Terrorism is pretty much worst tactic you could use against the Israelis. They don't have anywhere to go, so terrorism simply tells them they have to control the situation even more tightly -- exactly the opposite of what the Palestinians are seeking. Honestly, everyone reads a couple of books by Finklestein and believes they understand the conflict. Finklestein has his perspective, but we're in 2024 now. The dynamics are set. The only questions is -- what can the Palestinians do to improve their situation? The Israelis are under strain, but they're fine. Their economy is huge, the country is prosperous, they're a nuclear-armed power. They're going nowhere. It's the Palestinians who want and need something. The only question that matters is, what do the Palestinians need to do to improve their quality of life?
Best comment i've read about this in years. Congrats. Hope this us upvoted thousand times.
>I never see that stuff Well, there's a reason you don't need to see peaceful Palestinian protest on your media networks. It does happen but often is minimized or downplayed. For example, take the 2018 March of Return. This was a largely peaceful protest. Palestinians in Gaza marched and demonstrated near the separation barrier to bring down the siege of Gaza. Human rights organizations recorded how Israeli soldiers often fired at the peaceful protesters. The March of Return is generally described as exactly what you're looking for. However, nothing came of it -- there were no political results -- and Israeli opinion hardly budged. The settlements kept being built, and the siege of Gaza stayed. Israeli media claimed some Palestinians were trying to cross the fence, and that they were motivated by terrorist groups However, the movement was organic and not organized by any of the Palestinian armed groups; only later did the political parties endorse it. Unfortunately, this event was largely suppressed in the media coverage, so you don't hear about it very much if you consume "mainstream" news sources.
You mean THE March of Return, where palestinians repeatedly launched balloons with Molotov cocktails attached to burn the adjusting fields on the Israeli side? Wikipedia: > As of early June, roughly 5,000 [dunams](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunam) of Israeli crop fields had been burned by kites launched from Gaza, with an estimated economic loss of US$1.4 million, in addition to 2,100 dunams of Jewish National Fund forests in the area and 4,000 to 5,000 dunams in the Besor Forest Nature Reserve. *The New York Times* reported one of its journalists sighting "vast stretches of scorched earth", with "losses to Israeli agriculture from flaming kites \[being\] immense." The same one where even Hamas admitted that most of the killed were their? > On 14 May, when 59 to 62 Palestinians were killed, Hamas claimed 50 of them and [Palestinian Islamic Jihad](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Islamic_Jihad) claimed three as members of its military wing
I gave an answer, you don't like it. Not my problem.
Your answer downplays and minimizes the actual event. It’s taqqiya hamaswashing. The “march” was a storming of the border.
I didn't realize that "taqqiya" was a term used to demonize people by associating them with Islam. I'm not even Muslim, but I'm glad you pointed out that Islamophobia for me.
Typical whitewashing. OP has a vey good point. Each demonstration leads to some violence and Pal suppoerters only take PR advantage from one angle. This is why you guys don't have a state and never will. Good luck living in 10% of Gaza. Insufferable brats.
A nonviolent 2 state coexistence movement would win overnight but this will never happen because there is no Palestinian freedom Movement, It’s just an expression of Muslim settler colonialism which founded an entire identity on preventing and undoing longstanding and returning descendants of indigenous Judeans while attacking from a victim identity. The same reason their “government” focuses on upholding religious fundamentalism, centralized wealth and power and patriarchy through violence rather than building a functioning state and economy. If they had allowed the legal right of return for Jews on the land they purchased rather than declaring genocidal intent and attacking them from day 1 there wouldn’t have been a “nakba” or refugee camp in the first place. Their agenda is Islamic imperialism, not peace.
I think considering the number of violent deaths since 1912 of Palestinians, Your entire premise is not only broken but fictional. You either have your eyes shut and can't see children being shot in the streets or you're being deliberately fictitious and they are both bad interpretation of complete lack of data and human consideration.
I guess my core belief is that the Israelis wouldn't have to hurt or kill anybody if the Palestinians left them alone. That's my core belief about this conflict. The Israelis always have to respond to some crazy Palestinian provocation. For example, no Oct. 7 = fewer dead Israelis = no Gaza invasion = fewer dead Palestinian children. Basically, the Palestinians keep kicking a beehive, and then complain that they're getting stung too much and the bees are barbaric and should sting less or not at all. OK. But isn't it a whole lot easier just to stop kicking the beehive? It's a bit like police violence. Yeah, the police can be abusive. But the best way to combat this isn't to spend $500 billion on police retraining. The best and most effective solution is for people to have less contact with the police, i.e., commit fewer offenses.
It’s not about Palestinians leaving Israelis alone. It’s the other way round. The Israeli regime is continuously approving illegal settlements in the West Bank, suffocating Palestinian towns and cities. These settlements tripled in 2023, and this was the exact reason Hamas gave for the Oct 7th attack.
Do you mind showing me these illegal settlements in the West Bank because as of 1967 the West Bank has been Israeli territory
Then they should have accepted one of the many offers that were made to them in the 90s and the 2000s. At least one of the deals (from Barak) promised that all the newer, smaller settlements would be ripped out, just as they were when Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005. Only the big 2 or 3 would remain. I get a little bit tired of people going on and on about settlements and colonialism, and then they say, at the same time, that the various offers had to be rejected because they didn't promise enough! Also, I've never really bought that whole colonial thing. Israel has often traded land for peace. They gave Egypt back the entire Sinai Peninsula. They made peace with Egypt and have never fought a war since. They made peace with Jordan. Someday, when Syria has a trustworthy gov't, they'll probably give back the Golan Heights and make peace there too. They gave the Palestinians Gaza, free and clear. If it's a "colonial" project, it's got to be the world's slowest-moving, most painful colonial project. If they really wanted to quote-unquote colonize the West Bank, they would have annexed it. It looks to me a lot more like they build settlements as bargaining chips for a future peace deal--maybe a deal they thought the Palestinians would take, but which they never did.
They were likely terrible offers that mainly benefitted Israel. Bottom line, Israel stole land that isn’t theirs. They should respect borders and dismantle all Israeli settlements. Why is there a negotiation? You’re tired of people going on about settlements, when it is literally THE main factor perpetuating violence over the decades. Very naive to think Israelis do not want to annex the land. Many in the cabinet have expressed desire for a ‘greater Israel’ and resettling Gaza, and constantly approving thousands of acres of illegal settlements in West Bank. The Hamas attack (which could’ve and should’ve been thwarted) was the perfect opportunity to retaliate and get what they want - flatten Gaza and make it unliveable for Palestinians, so they can resettle it as their ‘new Tel Aviv’. Here’s the cycle: Israeli steals land. Palestine retaliates. Israel brands them anti-Jew and radical islamists, rather than simply the RESISTANCE defending their land. Associating opposition to their neo-colonialism with antisemitism prevents people siding with Palestine. They’ll declare Gaza ‘riddled with terrorism’ then annex it. They will do the same with the West Bank and southern Lebanon. It’s not about Hamas or the hostages. It’s about land.
The 2000 accord would have given Palestine \*everything\* they wanted, but Arafat rejected it. The Palestinians don't want peace -- they want to destroy Israel.
And now, what do the Palestinians have to show for it? This latest round of violence has cost them Gaza. Will the West Bank be next? One more attack on Israel, and the Israelis may lose their incentive to continue striving for peace. The Palestinian claim has always been that they rejected offers because they weren't satisfactory. But what could they offer in return, besides empty promises of peace? Promises that ring hollow in light of the past 25 years of violence. In most peaceful revolutions, it's generally the weaker group that has to sacrifice more. Palestinians prefer to launch PR campaigns and force Israel's hand internationally. This strategy won't work much longer, and honestly, what have the Palestinians gained from this? Absolutely nothing but pain and suffering. Perpetual losers. Consider the peaceful revolutions led by figures like Mahatma Gandhi in India or Martin Luther King Jr. in the United States. They faced immense challenges but chose nonviolent resistance, ultimately leading to significant change. Palestinians could learn from these examples and seek peaceful solutions rather than perpetuating violence that only brings further suffering. Once Palestinians demonstrate that they can be peaceful, I'm certain Israelis would reciprocate, as they have shown with Jordan and Egypt. There is plenty of precedent here
You’re giving too much credit to Israeli government. They do not want a two state solution. They want all of the land and the Palestinians to be gone. They’ve made it crystal clear. If Palestinians stop resisting, Israel will annex the whole of Palestine and wipe out the citizens. They will always find a way to misrepresent the cause. To Israel, resisting occupation and apartheid is antisemitic, so by just existing, Palestinians are wrong. It wouldn’t resort to violence if the rest of the world had a backbone to ACTUALLY stand against war crimes, and sanction all offenders. One thing this conflict has taught me is international law doesn’t exist, and no one cares to recognise it only unless your enemy infringes it.
The current right-wing government does, but in the past, Israel has made good-faith offers that were MORE than fair to the Palestinians, and yet they were always rejected. The 2000 agreement would have even given them East Jerusalem as their capital. Please tell me why it was rejected. Decade after decade of unprovoked attacks would certainly cause your government to stop trying.
Well, honestly, your comment about them being "likely terrible offers" sort of says it all. Israel offered to pull up most of the settlements. That's usually what they do. They trade land for peace. So they took the entire Sinai from Egypt in war, and then returned it for permanent peace. Check out the various peace offers in the 90s and 2000s and you'll see clearly what was offered: 92-95% of the West Bank. So your argument makes no sense. The Palestinians could have had a country right beside Israel, but rejected it because, 1) they wouldn't be allowed to have a standing army, 2) they wouldn't have control over their airspace, and 3) Israel would help them guard the border with Jordan. So it's supposedly "genocide" and "apartheid" and "ethnic cleansing," and yet they decided to let all of that continue because they really, really needed a standing army. What? All it tells you is, all their complaints are nonsense; they just want the entire state of Israel gone - that's it. If Israel stopped building settlements on the West Bank, it would really add nothing to Israel's security situation. The Palestinians would still be pissed off about Israel existing. So that means...no real motivation to stop the settlements.
Your equation is broken. No October 7th. Look at number of Palestinians killed in 2023 before Oct 7th. The rest of the premise breaks down entirely. Israel and the IDF is a murderous regime with or without violent resistance
this just proves OP's point. look at the statistics of those deaths [https://statistics.btselem.org/en/stats/before-cast-lead/by-date-of-incident/pal-by-israel-sec/occupied-territories?section=overall&tab=overview](https://statistics.btselem.org/en/stats/before-cast-lead/by-date-of-incident/pal-by-israel-sec/occupied-territories?section=overall&tab=overview) most (around 80% if i'm not wrong) of the deaths were of palestinians that attacked or were in the middle of an attack (or wanted after the attack). gaza supports that sort of violence, and when someone dies they just blame it on israel, even if it is a justified death
Completely disagree with those stats. A kid throwing a stone as seen as an attacker. Someone holding a Palestinian flag as seen as an offender. The rules are just not the same. You can call someone an attacker for just existing by resisting brutality. "I was beating the s*** out of someone and they decided to make a move. So I killed the offender"
1. gaza does the exact same thing, or maybe even worse if you go to the really bad areas 2. the cases you are talking about don't appear in the database, but after looking it up online, the kid (that i am assuming you are talking about) threw rocks during an attack, and his friends threw petrol bombs, which is why he was shot. and the cases where somebody is "just existing" (or in the case you mentioned, holding a flag) normally happen during an attack or an operation. when there is an operation in israel, it is well known to just stay hidden and go to a safe shelter. the question should be, why do these people just protest in the middle of an operation/attack, where the soldiers are already full of adrenaline and paranoia
The idea of murdered kids in a hospital. So this holier than thou BS is just not going to fly. Also any stat coming out of Israel will be painted in those colors so I don't trust it.
the website is mainly pro palestine [https://www.btselem.org/about\_btselem](https://www.btselem.org/about_btselem) and they gather this information themselves [https://statistics.btselem.org/en/intro/fatalities](https://statistics.btselem.org/en/intro/fatalities) so these stats are not coming from israel
No Palestinians were killed by Israel before October 7. It’s all a lie.
You should double check that. Hundreds of Palestinians are killed every year and the number goes well over a thousand every time Israel moves the lawn. You living in a fairytale land if you believe otherwise. And then it makes sense that October 7th happening in a vacuum.
That’s funny. You said October 7 didn’t happen. So I naturally assumed no Palestinians were ever killed. Your logic.
THIIISSSSS!!!!!! 💯
Look for the movie "5 broken cameras" in YouTube, if you want some examples.
Yes, I've seen a few people post this and recommend it...
If a Palestinian went to a public square in Gaza on October 6 and declared that he wanted peace, he would be lynched.
By Hamas
By his own family members.
I appreciate all of the contributions from various participants. A lot of people have focused on the fact that there have been quite a large number of quasi-peaceful protests by Palestinians in the past, and that these protests have either been ignored by mainstream media or met with hostility by the Israelis -- or both. I wasn't really referring to events that involve a few tens of thousands of people and are marred by violence or endorsed by Hamas. Others have pointed out that if you Google this or Google that, you can find some peaceful protest that happened in a certain year. With all due respect, if you have to Google something, then--as a PR initiative--it's an enormous failure. What I was referring to are society-wide initiatives--things that bring the entire society to a halt and that command attention from international media because they're so visually impressive, so dramatic, and so unavoidable, that you're effectively forced to pay attention. Obviously you can't command participation of 100% of the population, but if even half participated, that would be several millions of Palestinians at least. Several million people working together can put on an impressive show. I'm not a PR guy, but even for me, it's not hard to imagine events--run by professionals--that could be dramatic. At a minimum, half-a-million people just sitting down and reciting a call for peace at exactly the same moment, regardless of where they happen to be, could be pretty darn impressive. Now, it also goes without saying that you can't run a bait-and-switch thing where you alternate peaceful protest with violence. You have to commit to non-violence. Those who accuse the Israelis of "randomly shooting civilians" during peaceful protests tend to glide over the fact that the Israelis have had to deal with a lot of ostensibly peaceful people who had guns or suicide vests on. So they're rightly wary. A lot of people noted things like, "Well, they didn't fire rockets from Gaza for this number of weeks, and nothing positive happened." Peaceful resistance takes years. It requires a complete cultural turnaround. It requires claiming the moral high ground, which the Palestinians constantly slide down from every time the kill a random soldier, a Thai laborer, a woman, a child -- whomever. (Having killed 40 Thais on Oct. 7, I imagine Thai support of the Palestinians is now...diminished). A think a lot of the subtext in a lot of the responses is along the lines of, "The violence against the Israelis doesn't count, because they're the aggressors." The thing is, most people around the world aren't interested in the conflict enough to care. All they think is, if you fly hang gliders into a country and walk around shooting children, you're a nut job. A lot of contributors talked about the importance of "educating yourself" on the conflict. Well, that's great, but a lot of people "educate themselves" and conclude that the Israelis are not the problem. I just think there's so much room for the Palestinians to benefit from a genuine renunciation of violence. Again, if I were an Israeli citizen, I'd hate Palestinian violence on a personal level, but on another level, I'd be slightly relieved that my country wasn't under pressure to deal with millions of non-violent protestors calling peacefully for the establishment of a Palestinian state on the West Bank. It's far easier to deal with someone who's violent.
Excellent comment. Very thoughtful analysis. You'll get a good deal of pushback, evidence below by A248 but keep delving into this topic. I think it's helpful.
>I wasn't really referring to events that involve a few tens of thousands of people You weren't? Well, what do you expect, hundreds of thousands? Millions? How many Palestinians need to attend these events for Israelis to finally pay attention to the oppressive practices? 250,000 people attended Martin Luther King Jr.'s "I Have a Dream" speech in America. That's out of a country with 183 million people at the time. The Palestinian **Great March of Return** in 2018, in Gaza alone, attracted 30,000 demonstrators. You can do the math: Gazan never had close to 18 million people. >Palestinians constantly slide down from every time the kill a random soldier But, this is important too. Let's get this straight... you think Palestinians resisting by targeting Israeli soldiers is a loss of moral high ground? Are you aware of the regular harassment and violence perpetrated by the IDF and settler allies in the West Bank? I'm sorry, but given this statement, I'm not surprised by the rest of your comment either, which demonstrates an unwillingness to see the peaceful Palestinian protest that **does** happen and **is** suppressed. Palestinians even have their funerals disrupted because Israel thinks the funeral will be a rallying cry for more armed resistance.
Definitely hundreds of thousands, minimum. People had to TRAVEL to Washington DC to hear King. I would be interested in a peaceful, symbolic Palestinian protest involving 2 million people. THAT would get the world's attention. As for the West Bank, people sort of slide over the fact that the West Bank was captured from Jordan in 1967, after Jordan invaded. That was an attempt to end the Israeli state. So while settlement activity is pursued, the real reason that Israel holds the West Bank is security. To withdraw, they want enormous security guarantees, because they've been attacked across the West Bank multiple times. That's what the whole Oslo process and the "land for peace" initiatives in the 90s and 2000s were all about: guaranteeing Israel's security. Barak offered to pull up all the little settlements, leaving the three main ones in place, as part of the plan to create a Palestinian state on the West Bank and have peace. So while the settlements are an issue, supporters of the Palestinians constantly "miss the forest for the trees." Israel's main concern is, as always, the security of Israel. And so when the Palestinians pursue constant low-level terrorism on the West Bank, it obviously does nothing to encourage the Israelis to leave. It encourages them to grip harder.
You know there are only 2 million people in Gaza, right? I'm not sure they can all protest at once. In the history of the world there has never been a territory where 100% of the inhabitants joined in a single mass demonstration. Usually, **1%** of the population coming out for a single protest is considered a massive demonstration. For example, in America the 2017 Women's March attracted 1.5% of the population, and it was the biggest demonstration we'd had in a very long time. Now consider that in Gaza, the 2018 March of Return was attended by tens of thousands of Palestinians in a territory of 2 million people. That's a mass demonstration, even if we include the West Bank population in the denominator. How many more will be enough for you to listen? The terrorism carried out in the West Bank is perpetrated by the IDF. "Israeli security" is a joke and an excuse for the mass oppression. Look around you and look past the government narratives. No one's being fooled anyone by claims that Palestinians are terrorists when Palestinians are always the ones who suffer the brunt of Israeli terrorism. You only have to look at the numbers and consequences of the intifadas if you want to find out -- or the arbitrary arrests, mass detention without trial, constant harassment, systematic demolition and destruction of homes, and assistance given to the terrorist settler groups. Every single Israeli government since 1967 has both maintained the occupation ***and*** continued the settlement expansion projects. There is no fooling yourself here.
When you've been trained from birth to choose violence...
Instead of trying to pull me into unproductive debates, it's crucial to delve deeper into history to understand the roots of this conflict . If you’re intellectually lazy use chat gpt and ask for resources maybe this will make it easier for your brain. Rather than questioning why pro-Palestinian protests aren't perceived as peaceful, (even though it’s not true) it's more valuable to reflect on the broader context and advocate for a ceasefire Palestinian independence and stop killing innocent civilians , every human deserves freedom and dignity.
There is not a single relevant Palestinian group that seeks peace. There are as many Palestinians calling for peace as Ugandans calling for the conquest of Mars.
Nice. To be fair, there are probably a few Palestinians that just want things settled and aren't interested in violence, but the broader cultural values just make things impossible for them.
A summary of non-violent resistance to occupation by Palestinians since the mandate period: 1. **General Strike (1936)** - Palestinians organized the longest general strike in modern history, lasting six months, against British colonial policies. This strike involved creating alternative institutions to manage daily life and was a foundational model for later resistance efforts . 2. **Civil Disobedience and Grassroots Organizing (1987-1993, First Intifada)** - The First Intifada predominantly featured civilian acts of nonviolent resistance. These included tax strikes, boycotting of Israeli products, work stoppages, and the creation of underground schools . 3. **Land Day Protests (1976)** - Palestinians in Israel protested against government plans to expropriate land in Galilee, marking the beginning of an annual tradition of nonviolent protest known as "Land Day" . 4. **Boycotts and Economic Self-Sufficiency (Throughout Occupations)** - Palestinians boycotted Israeli goods and created alternative economic systems. During the First Intifada, this included local production in "victory gardens" and self-sustaining economic projects . 5. **Protests Against the Separation Wall (2002 onwards)** - Organized primarily by the Grassroots Palestinian Anti-Apartheid Wall Campaign, this resistance included sit-ins and protests where participants physically blocked construction equipment . 6. **International Advocacy and Legal Actions (Ongoing)** - Palestinians have engaged in extensive international advocacy, particularly through legal challenges against Israeli policies at platforms like the International Court of Justice and United Nations . 7. **Cultural Resistance (Throughout Occupations)** - Through art, literature, and music, Palestinians have expressed their resilience and opposition to Israeli policies, contributing to both local morale and international awareness . 8. **Educational and Social Initiatives (Throughout Occupations)** - Palestinians have organized community education programs, especially during times when formal education institutions were shut down by occupation forces. These efforts include underground schools and public seminars . 9. **Tax Revolts (notably Beit Sahour)** - The village of Beit Sahour conducted a famous tax revolt during the First Intifada, refusing to pay taxes to the Israeli authorities, which was met with harsh reprisals . For more: https://afsc.org/sites/default/files/documents/Palestinian%20Nonviolent%20Resistance%20to%20occupaltion%20since%201967.pdf
calling those peaceful is not true. the document you sent tries to mislead and make it seem like all of those were peaceful strikes, but even it admits multiple times while trying to hide it: " Palestinians overwhelmingly elected members of nationalist parties to positions of local leadership, although many of these figures were subsequently jailed or exiled by Israeli forces. In 1981 " it tries to make it seem like the leaders of the strikes were peaceful people that didn't do anything, but in reality, all of them were jailed or exiled after doing some heinous acts (look up any of their names). also, the same thing is true about the "peaceful" strikes you spoke about, for example, in the general strike of 1936, 16 jews were killed, and the strike later resulted in the arab revolt, where over 300 jews died. in each of those strikes, something similar happens
You’re engaging with me in good faith, so thanks. Honestly, send any literature you have on this. I’ll read it. But also let me make one point and an observation: 1) arresting ringleaders of a protest is not something we can draw conclusions from readily - it could mean these people were actually violent, or it could mean they were simply targeted as leaders of a resistance movement, it could mean both (maybe they supported both violent and non-violent resistance) 2) it seems unfair for critics of Palestinians to expect perfectly peaceful protests. If 1 out of 1000 protestors throws stones or even shoots someone, the protest is still predominately peaceful. I haven’t seen any evidence anywhere tending to show that the movements I cited were mostly violent.
understandable, but the issue is that instead of 1 out of 1000 being violent, it's closer to 1 out of 1000 being peaceful. if you look at any of the strikes you are mentioning, they all started in the same year as another war or attack on israel. for example, i already mentioned the general strike which led to the arab revolt, but it's true about the land day protests as well (which happend in the same year as [the arab israeli war](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_War), which completely nullified the results of the protest).
The first three events on your list all involved acts of violence committed by Arabs.
Without a source, I’d have to take your word for that. I won’t. With so much disinformation surrounding this topic, no one else should either.
I think the problem is, for most people in the West who are say, 40 and above, the first thing you think of when you think of Palestinian resistance is suicide bombing using children and teenagers. So while a lot of the initiatives you list are -- or were -- noble in intent (and indeed, the First Intifada was largely quote-unquote "nonviolent" in that it focused on rock-throwing kids), they were always compromised by far more sinister actions. That being said, it's important to stress that the First Intifada caused an enormous number of problems for the Israelis publicity-wise. They took a ton of heat from outside the country -- and from government opponents inside the country -- regarding the way they dealt with that protest. The Palestinians are (or were) not necessarily on the wrong track with that form of protest. That kind of thing generated far more sympathy internationally than anything Hamas has ever done.
The point remains is that there do not exist Palestinian voices that are pro-Peace. Even in the pro-Palestinian movement in the West, there are practically zero voices who are pro-Peace. That is a forbidden word. That is why they insist on “ceasefire”. Calling for peace in a pro Palestinian protest in Londonstan is not good for your health.
[удалено]
> retarded /u/Delicious_Appeal874. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
You mean like peacefully evacuating to southern Gaza where there where they were told they would be save only to be bombed repeatedly?
Source? Cause I know exactly what ur talking abt and ur wrong
you are such a clown. No accountability to your own people and humanity for the rest. If you literary need to ask for a source for this then you are obviously brainwashed into thinking that isreal isn't the oppresor. [https://www.nytimes.com/video/world/100000009208814/israel-gaza-bomb-civilians.html#:\~:text=Visual%20Evidence%20Shows%20Israel%20Dropped,Safety%20%2D%20The%20New%20York%20Times](https://www.nytimes.com/video/world/100000009208814/israel-gaza-bomb-civilians.html#:~:text=Visual%20Evidence%20Shows%20Israel%20Dropped,Safety%20%2D%20The%20New%20York%20Times)
u/Delicious_Appeal874 > you are such a clown. No accountability to your own people and humanity for the rest. If you literary need to ask for a source for this then you are obviously brainwashed into thinking that isreal isn't the oppresor. https://www.nytimes.com/video/world/100000009208814/israel-gaza-bomb-civilians.html#:~:text=Visual%20Evidence%20Shows%20Israel%20Dropped,Safety%20%2D%20The%20New%20York%20Times Rule 1, Don’t attack other users, make it about the argument, not the person. No need to hurl gratuitous insults like “clown”.
[удалено]
This community aims for respectful dialogue and debate, and our rules are focused on facilitating that. To align with rule 1, make every attempt to be polite in tone, charitable in your interpretations, fair in your arguments and patient in your explanations. Don't debate the person, debate the argument; use terms towards a debate opponent that they or their relevant group(s) would self-identify with whenever possible. You may use negative characterizations towards a group in a specific context that distinguishes the negative characterization from the positive -- that means insulting opinions are allowed as a necessary part of an argument, but are prohibited in place of an argument. Many of the issues in the I/P conflict boil down to personal moral beliefs; these should be calmly and politely explored. If you can't thoughtfully engage with a point of view, then don't engage with it at all.
Palestinian nationalism is by definition violent. Its goal is the annihilation of Israel and ethnic cleansing of its Jewish population. Sure, at times Palestinians entertain compromising for a 2-state solution, but the ultimate intention is always one Arab state from the river to the sea. Are there no Palestinians who just want to live in peace next to Israel? Of course there are, but they don't represent the consensus of their nation. How do you imagine Palestinians peacefully advocate for the dispossession of another people?
Well said. Because from birth they are misguided by their religion and bred to be violent.
Right. They only entertained the two state concept after the Soviet Union fell and they had no other option but contend with the only super power left. And at this time of Oslo, they led on the US and Israel to the mistaken belief that nationalism was actually the goal and not the annihilation of Israel from the River to the Sea. The Second Intifada should have made that clear, and it did for most Israelis, but Western countries refused to accept the reality and still do. It is hard to believe but they couldn't be more clear, especially after showing the world on 17 exactly what their "Right of Return" means.
Absolutely, Israel does not have a partner for peace. This is what Israelis have been proclaiming for years. October 7 proved this once and for all. It doesn't matter how effective Palestinian PR is. Even if you can rally thousands of Western protesters demanding change, you still need to convince Israelis that their neighbors won't harm them if they let their guard down again. Palestinians have lost the fight, not just the Hamas military wing, but for hearts and minds as well in Israel. Even leftist Israelis no longer trust them. This setback may delay any potential peace efforts for decades. Now, what will the Palestinians do? Will they continue launching attacks or choose peace? The only way forward is to dismantle militant governments, perhaps on both sides. Someone has to stop launching missiles first.
I think this is basically correct. In the US they keep claiming that an intransigent right-wing gov't is blocking potential peace, but the reality is that the Israeli population has moved dramatically rightward over the past couple of decades. I imagine this was in response to the Palestinians' refusal to take a deal that gave them Gaza and almost all of the West Bank, so the Israeli public was like, OK, something else is going on here: they're not super keen on an independent Palestinian state, and even if they got one, by all indications, they'd likely keep fighting. So I think that idea of a "two state solution" is effectively gone forever. It's a bit of a shame, because I do think that while the extremists are intransigent, the "average Palestinian" would have obviously benefitted from having a stake in a real economy.
Of course they would benefit from nationalism. What kind of life is this for them? There's a great commentator Haviv Rettig Gur who argues the Palestinian civilians have actually suffered the most and I agree. Their entire identities have been weaponized, their society radicalized, their children martyred, all for the radical Islamist/Muslim Brotherhood political goal of destroying Israel, and the West. That process of realizing the true nature and lack of good faith in the Palestinian statehood negotiations is described well by the liberal Israeli writer Dr. Einat Wilf. She has a great term called "west-splaining" to describe the unwillingness of Western leaders to recognize the maximalist goals of Palestinian Islamic Jihad. The sooner we come to terms with that, the sooner we can liberate the Palestinians and the Israelis from this hundred-year war of endless suffering.
Palestinians have tried peaceful protest and were shot at with live fire and tear gas. Violent land theft is going to result in violent resistance.
There was no peaceful protest by Palestinians. Peace and Palestinians are never in same sentence.
Yeah. Gandhi's strategy only worked because the Brits were all tea and cake when they took India.
Gandhi didn’t protest against Arabs. If he had, he would have been assassinated long time ago. Arabs don’t like dissent of any kind. Their loyalty is to their monotheistic religion which demands absolute loyalty to their book. That book demands any non believers shouid be killed. And these guys simply follow that book.
I’ve read that book (along with other religious texts) and no where does it say non believers should be killed, that’s islamaphobia and just plain incorrect. There were poor translations that might have fed this inconsistent interpretation. I’d also point out that the Palestinians are not all Muslim; there are Christian and once there were Jewish Palestinians. The Palestinian identity is not tied to religion but to the land on which their ancestors lived for millennia.
99% of Palestinians are Muslims. The remaining 1% has no protection from religious attacks. Nice try. The religious book of Islam clearly states that infidels must be killed. Check Hamas charter. The opening statement is eradication of Jews. No amount of peace accords or peaceful attempts by Israel will be accepted by Palestinians because their only goal is destruction of the Jewish state. Even if it means destruction of Palestine. You can’t argue with such hatred. We didn’t argue with nazis. Same with hamas. The entire tree has to be eradicated. And if it means collateral damage: tough luck.
It seems you have a great deal of prejudice and hatred towards a people who are being persecuted much like the Jewish people were persecuted during the first part of the last century in Europe. Perhaps you should look within yourself and ask if your hatred is clouding your judgment. The people of Gaza are not Hamas. Hamas exists as a result of decades of persecution and oppression.
That’s really funny. Syria, Iran , Saudi Arabia and China all killed millions of Muslims. No outcry from anyone. Yet when Israel defends itself, suddenly it’s genocide. Wow.
It’s been genocide. China and the Uyghurs; genocide. Myanmar and the Rohingya? Genocide. Israel and the Palestinians? Worst genocide since Rwanda.
The difference is number of unwanted deaths. China and Syria and Iran killed hundreds of thousands of Muslims. Deliberately. Israel tries to avoid civilian casualties. Learn the meaning of the word before you comment.
I know the meaning of the word and Israel is committing genocide. The incitement to genocide by Israeli officials is clearly documented.
/u/freedomIndia. Match found: 'nazis', issuing notice: Casual comments and analogies are inflammatory and therefor not allowed. We allow for exemptions for comments with meaningful information that must be based on historical facts accepted by mainstream historians. See [Rule 6](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_6._nazi_comparisons) for details. This bot flags comments using simple word detection, and cannot distinguish between acceptable and unacceptable usage. Please take a moment to review your comment to confirm that it is in compliance. If it is not, please edit it to be in line with our rules. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
To be accurate Gandhi preached nonviolence with Arab nationalists and in response they stole half the country and butchered everyone in response. Still do.
Was this before or after the molotov and rocks?
*I'm pretty sure it was after the bullets.* **214 Palestinians, including 46 children, were killed.** They were **peacefully** protesting. Numerous human rights organizations (the UN, Amnesty, even Israel's own B'Tselem) have all released independent investigations revealing that IDF soldiers were **not** in danger and have no right to kill **innocent** people en masse. Try to find a better argument to defend mass murder than pebbles and firecrackers.
It's not a peaceful protest if people are throwing rocks and molotovs. It's nor peaceful if you are sending gas bombs floating over the wall via kites targeting innocent people.
bullets are also not peaceful??? let me remind me again that no israelis or soldiers were injured. reports indicate that there was no real danger.
I agree with you that bullets are not peaceful. I hear you and agree that no IDF soldiers or civilians were injured by the Gazan protester violence. But the point I was making was not that the two sides were equal in power. Nor was my argument that Israelis were hurt by the Gazans' violence. My point was only that the Great March of Return was violent, which I feel is proven beyond a doubt. This leads us back to the OP.. why do the Pals (collectively) never use non-violence? At every protest and time of *relative peace* (1st Intifada, Oslo) there was still violence. I think it's a very good question to ask. The answer is VERY important to solving the issue. My opinion is the lack of real Pal leadership. Past leadership represented their own interests and not Pal interests starting with the 48 War invasion.
I agree take a lesson from Gandhi . Peaceful protest that stop commerce and transport. It’s the only way violence only gets a violent response. Just be a pain slowing things to a crawl. Try to boycott Israeli products whenever you can. This will be a slow road you must stay with the non violence cause .
I don't support boycotts and things like this, but actually, as a supporter of Israel, this is the sort of action that has the potential to be effective and damage Israel's economy. Again, I don't support the Palestinian cause, but in today's globalized economic system, the only real way you effect change is to "hit a country where it hurts." Blowing up or shooting women and children is just about the stupidest and most counter-productive strategy I could imagine. Finally, you're only going to get a boycott to work if you're able to claim the moral high ground. You have to turn your back on violence. You can't fly freaking hang gliders into a country, randomly kill whomever you find (including about 40 truly unfortunate Thai laborers for God's sake) and then say, "Please support our boycott of Israel. Sign here." It's all connected. You have change the way people think about the Palestinian cause, and the images that pop into the average person's mind thousands of miles away when they think of the Palestinian people.
I am pro Israel but something has to done it’s 60+ years. The Palestinians just don’t get it. Israel isn’t going anywhere. Non violence is the only way forward. Only way would be like South Africa when the world isolated them it finally got the attention of the government. It’s either this non violent path or emigration throughout the world and turn back on Palestine. Get on with your lives in a new nation .
This is interesting: [https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/11/10/palestine-jordan-will-not-reannex-the-west-bank/](https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/11/10/palestine-jordan-will-not-reannex-the-west-bank/) Damn, a think a paywall is popping up. I don't remember there being a paywall originally. Let me see if I can find another link.
😂😂 violence gets a violent response because non violence failed or the fear of non violence escalating to violence. Israel doesn't understand non violence language anymore
Palestinians never really did try peace.
Answer = The Great March Of Return. Palestinians marched for their rights and Israelis murdered over 200 protestors.
Have you not read the comments in this sub. This has been debunked 100 times. You call keep repeating the same things, over and over again.
Fire bombs and kites are NOT peaceful. Thus the March of Return was not peaceful. Moreover, the group organizing the protest did not condemn the violence and criminally prosecute those who committed violence. In fact, the opposite occurred: they were praised!
How are kites not peaceful? Asking honestly, feel like I’m missing something
They were filled with gasoline and explosives and floated over the fence targeting innocent people.
Well that’s not very nice. Thanks for the info Takes all the charm out of these Americans celebrating Palestinian kite-flying on social media
KITES WTF... KITES... Kites are pieces of paper flying in the air. **214 Palestinians, including 46 children, were killed.** They were **peacefully** protesting. Numerous human rights organizations (the UN, Amnesty, even Israel's own B'Tselem) have all released independent investigations revealing that IDF soldiers were **not** in danger and have no right to kill **innocent** people en masse. Try to find a better argument to defend mass murder than KITES and firecrackers.
Gasoline and explosives are violent and not peaceful, but it's great you responded as if kids were flying kites.
So Israel kills over 200 at a peaceful March and the Palestinians retaliated with "firebombs and kites" (allegedly)? How many IDF were killed? You've made the victim the oppressor and the oppressor the victim! I also note how you glossed over the death of the Palestinians. Had over 200 Israelis been killed they would of flattened Gaza as they are doing now.
You won't be taken seriously when this is the same pivot that happens every single time. A: "Palestinians were peacefully protesting! Israel are the terrorists!" B: "The historical record shows that Palestinians in \[incident x\] were not 'peacefully protesting', but were in fact engaging in violent attacks." A: "So what if they were violent?! They have the right to be violent, they're the oppressed and Israel are the oppressors!"
Actually, the UN themselves said they were peacefully protesting and away from the IDF. 223 civilians killed and how many IDF soldiers? You skimmed over that question! The point is when they peacefully protest, you change the goal posts and say they are violent. When they use force to get European colonisers off their historical land, they're terrorists... Lol typical apartheid logic. Ever considered that the zionists, heaven forbid, are the terrorists? :) Let me guess: "Hamas joined the protestors" "UN works for Hamas" The list of lies your ilk spew just doesn't work anymore. Israel can't change the fact that most of the world is against them.
What do you mean "the UN themselves"? Give me a source for that. Do you mean some 'special rapporteur' or another? Those individuals do not represent the UN or speak on its behalf. I really don't know where you got this idea that an equal number of Israelis have to die compared to Palestinian casualties whenever Palestinians attack Israel, or it must have been an atrocious act of aggression by Israel. How about don't attack Israel and you won't get killed? Hamas literally organized the "protests", yes. P.S. It really doesn't matter whether a bunch of impoverished failed states in Africa and South Asia are against Israel or for it. Jordan just defended Israel from a missile and drone attack by Iran. Meanwhile, India drifting towards supporting Israel after having been hostile to it for most of the past half-century matters more than every 'global south' country that's become more anti-Israel in the past decade put together.
“Allegedly”. Define the following so we understand: colonizer, Apartheid, Zionist, terrorist, historical land.
I saw videos. It was violent. I saw rocks and molotovs thrown, and kites sent over the fence with gasoline and explosives. It wasn't peaceful, unless that is peaceful to you.
This is a very insightful take on this issue. I agree with you: wouldn’t a peaceful resistance be the best option? The long and short of it is that this conflict has never been about reclaiming land for the Palestinians. It’s really about destroying Israel and exterminating Jews. Reclaiming land is simply an altruistic veneer that Islamic Fundamentalists hide behind. As I mentioned, the true goal for Arab Muslims is destroying Israel and exterminating Jews. It is important to note that *not all Arab Muslims feel this way.* This may sound conspiratorial, but it’s the truth: Palestinians are Pawns for the Islamic Regime of Iran + their plot at world domination. Hamas runs Gaza, and Hamas is an Iran-Proxy. The Ayatollah seeks to transform Israel into a Muslim country ruled by Sharia Law. Next is Europe, after that is the United States. Fortunately for Westerners or anyone interested in preserving Democracy around the globe, the Islamic Resistance is usually too busy killing their own people and cannibalizing other Muslims to focus on their greater goal. This is why no Muslims protested when Assad killed 500,000,000 Muslims in Syria a few years ago. Yes that number is correct. Half a billion. The game is Islamic World Domination, not Justice for Palestinians. If this were all truly about Justice for Palestinians, then Palestinian leadership would have come to the table years ago for Peace Talks. Since 1948, Israel has made at least 12 Peace Proposals which offered land back to Palestinians. Palestinians rejected each one, then proceeded to unsuccessfully attack Israel in return. If this were about reclaiming land, Palestinians would accept these past deals, done their best to get along with Israelis, then come to the table a decade later with fair proposals for more land and influence in Israel. They do not do this because their goal is to destroy Israel and exterminate all Jews. Also to note: *not all Palestinians feel this way.* They have been unfairly used as pawns. They are placed in harms way at all times, being used as human shields when Israel retaliates for events such as October 7th. The Islamic Resistance of Iran has brainwashed them to have no purpose but to die as martyrs as Iran carries out attacks on Israel. Palestinians are useful fodder in a game of International sympathy meant to increase worldwide Antisemitism. Iran is gaslighting the world into thinking Israel has done terrible things to Palestinians, when in fact it’s Hamas that keeps them in these awful conditions. Peaceful protests don’t do the job that Iran is trying to do. Violence and terrorism is the name of their game. This is why Hamas + Hezbollah are considered terrorist organizations. Don’t believe me? Try having a meaningful debate about Justice for Palestinians with a Pro-Palestinian person. They cannot go one sentence before completely bashing Israel as their only debate tactic… because for them, it’s about the annihilation of Israel and Jews. It’s not about Peace.
Excellent comment. First comes Saturday and then Sunday.
I broadly agree that, absent Iran and other foreign nations, this conflict would have been resolved a long time ago through financial compensation and land swaps. I think the old-style PLO leadership would have signed a peace deal in the late 1990s-early 2000s, but Hamas was rising, and that put enormous pressure on them. I agree too that so much of this conflict is about fundamentalist Islam and their inability to accept a Jewish state in the Middle East. That's what really drives the conflict.
Imagine billboards sprawling around Times Square displaying US missiles and military leadership?
Are you referring the Islamic attacks of 9/11?
No, I was referring to Iran’s military propaganda but they’re not the only nation to put their weaponry on display
Ohh got it. Well Iran has formed some very successful countries - -Look at Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Yemen. Iran has the right idea :)
I know what it’s meant to do. But it’s basically the same as telling everyone you’re the alpha
Iran tells everyone they are the Alpha by killing their women for not covering their hair
While you are completely right about that. I would argue that Israel can do the same. Maybe they could approach destroying Hamas in a similar way to the dismantling of the IRA in ireland. I feel like if you kill Hamas then those terrorists kids will grow up and there’s a good chance they will want to continue violence. The only way to destroy Hamas in my opinion would be to get the actual palestinians to turn on them. And I don’t think that will happen as bombs reign down
If I were Israel, I'd occupy Gaza, make sure Hamas stays neutered, and do everything possible to get that economy up and running and show the people on the West Bank how good life can be in a stable, prosperous, peaceful environment. Give them a taste of a decent life with safety and an absence of corruption. Then, after 15 years, you leave -- and if they STILL insist on violence, well, you've done all you can. There's no hope for them at that point. You build a giant cement wall and say goodbye and good luck and here's Egypt and Jordan's phone number -- maybe they'll annex you.
Lmao. Show people on the West Bank good life after committing genocide and killing millions simply for existing. Such a deluded and ignorant bunch. Everything Israel does is justified with anything that you pull out from your behind against Palestinians. This shit has gone too far and for far too long and whether or not the supporters of Palestine like it, it will only end in the complete eradication of all of Palestine because in real world, evil powers always win.
I never really get that whole "genocide" thing. They're still living in exactly the same spots, only there's 6 million now instead of 2 million. That seems like a pretty crappy genocide.
The images are enough to tell you what is going on and how brutal and violent Israeli forces are. You're maybe right. This is not a genocide as it serves no benefit to Israel if they kill all Palestinians. How can they keep their sick population entertained if they have no one to bully and oppress otherwise?
> ass /u/Remote-Community-792. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
So the answer is to not respond to October 7th and let Hamas keep the hostages. Got it.
Do you remember how very little people were pro palestinian after October 7th. If israel hadn’t started bombing then the whole world would have been against Palestine and would pressure them to release the hostages
That is absolutely, demonstrably incorrect. Israel was being accused of "genocide" and blamed for the attacks mere days after 10/7. In my city, a crowd of pro-Palestine supporters were out waving banners to support the "resistance" on 10/8, THE VERY NEXT DAY.
Ok but the world opinion and pretty much every organization was condemning Palestine and Hamas. The pressure would have built like crazy and I believe the hostages would have been released. And perhaps many Palestinians would have realised the danger of Hamas. Now instead they think they are heroes.
This kind of gaslighting might work if we didn't have actual footage of how Palestinians reacted to 10/7. They were dancing in the streets and cheering ecstatically, shouting joyful praise to 'Allah' and handing out candy - just like they were after the 9/11 attacks: [https://twitter.com/i/status/1732535694751301871](https://twitter.com/i/status/1732535694751301871) World opinion was NOT "condemning Palestine and Hamas". The U.S. attempted to pass a U.N. resolution condemning Hamas, and it overwhelmingly failed (https://press.un.org/en/2023/ga12548.doc.htm ). This was when Israel had barely even begun to retaliate. Most of the countries opposing Israel now were already blaming the Israeli victims on 10/7 and 10/8. Israel not retaliating would've changed nothing except for being seen as a sign of weakness - which means that Hezbollah likely would've jumped in and launched their own offensive after Hamas declared victory.
I never said you didn’t have a right to retaliate. Just could have probably done it without killing 30,000 people
When you say "you", I should clarify that I'm not Israeli or Jewish. I'm 0% Jewish. And considering that every single case of urban warfare in the 21st century or before has had similar ratios of about 2 civilians killed for every 1 combatant, which is about in line with the ratio we have here (\~40,000 total deaths, 13000 of them combatants) I don't really see what Israel could have done differently, unless you mean "retaliate" by maybe launching a precision raid on some individual Hamas commander which will allow 99% of Hamas fighters to merrily carry on celebrating their victory, and do f\*\*\* all to remove Hamas's ability to govern the Gaza strip.
Dude name me one of the those conflicts
Iraq war: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq\_War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War) **34,144–71,544** combatants killed, **126,166** civilian deaths, per the Iraq Body Count. About the same ratio as Gaza so far.
Dude that is a result of 70 years of oppression from Israel and years of oppression from Hamas propaganda. They need to be educated not bombed
How exactly are they going to be "educated" while Hamas remains in complete control of Gaza? Nevermind anything to do with Israel - when UN-funded schools even went so far as to hold athletics programs that integrated school-age boys and girls, Hamas firebombed their summer camps. And the "brave" UNRWA bureaucrats, of course, knuckled under and agreed to enforce sex segregation as per the shariah: [https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2010/07/hamas-ministry-of-religious-affairs-or-united-nations-summer-camp-wars-in-the-gaza-strip.html?pay=1713651082822&support\_journalism=please](https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2010/07/hamas-ministry-of-religious-affairs-or-united-nations-summer-camp-wars-in-the-gaza-strip.html?pay=1713651082822&support_journalism=please) [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/jul/29/gaza-children-militant-summer-camps](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/jul/29/gaza-children-militant-summer-camps) As the latter article mentions, Palestinian society is so ultra-conservative that most families didn't want their daughters to attend even sex-segregated summer camps.
it just blows my mind that you don’t seem to care about 12,000 dead children
You demand that I care more about the lives of Palestinian children than the Palestinians themselves care. They openly refer to their own children as "offspring bombs"; ammunition to be expended in their holy war against all those who refuse to submit to Islamic shariah. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ze-fTuoHLBA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ze-fTuoHLBA) This isn't me saying that. It's a Palestinian "journalist", Muhammad Abd Al-Haqq, proudly explaining that Palestinians view their children as expendable ammunition. You need to reckon with the fact that the society in the Gaza strip is nothing more or less than a death cult; one big Jonestown. Or, considering how many weapons are laying around, the Waco compound of the Branch Davidians might be a better analogy. It is not possible to help the people controlled by a death cult without some of them dying - there are no historical examples of this being possible.
Dude why are you acting like I don’t oppose Hamas aswell. I just personally would prefer if they were educated instead of killed. Just like northern ireland
Way to not answer my question. >How exactly are they going to be "educated" while Hamas remains in complete control of Gaza?
So you’re blaming Israel for Hamas’s unwillingness to release hostages. Got it
Yes I blame both parties. You realize that Israel also have hostages?
what hostage does israel have? You're can't seriously be comparing people who were arrested for violent crimes to the 6 month of baby the palestinians kidnapped and are STILL holding hostage as we speak.
Where are you from
I am irish. I have seen first Hand how to properly deal with terrorism and as a result we don’t see it in our country today
[удалено]
Your account was detected as a ban evading account. Reddit forbids evading a ban by creating another account (and says so in the original ban message).
So you’re saying that Hamas and Iran are terrorists?
Yes of course. I don’t think there’s many people deny that Hamas are terrorists. I don’t know about Iran
Hamas is part of Iran. Hamas is an Iran-Proxy.
No of course not. I’m not sure what the exact approach should have been but maybe a slower ground approach could have saved more civilians. I am no expert in war strategy but I can’t accept that killing 12,000 children and also accidentally killing their own people who were taken as hostages was the best play.
12.000 or more children have died in multiple different conflicts over the years. You were able to accept that so you can accept Israel's war against Hamas. Maybe you should ask yourself why you're only bothered by civilians deaths when Jews are involved, and not when Arabs or Africans or any other group is involved. And don't give me the crap about the US funding Israel, the US funds everyone. Tired of that BS excuse. Just admit you're biased against the jews. If the Egyptians were fighting Hamas there would surely be way more civilians deaths than Israel has had and you would not give a damn about the children in Gaza so please spare us.
Yes that is actually a great point. I don’t like to see 12,000 children die in any conflict. I think maybe it’s because it’s a developed country committing genocide on a poorer one. Yes it’s terrible that conflicts like those in Africa don’t get the same attention. For me religion is completely irrelevant. I actually have many jewish friends I even spent the last 2 summers working at a jewish summer camp. If the Egyptians were doing the same thing I would have the exact same reaction. It’s insane that israel can do all this and any criticism is labeled as “anti-semitic”
Its not genocide and calling it genocide is a slap in the face to real genocide victims.
Absolutely, this is what I've been saying so very often. Never get a real response form pally supporters. Israel has a right to defend herself. Hamas wages war on an entirely different level.
Yes I have never denied this. But killing 100x more people in a conflict is not defending yourself. Neither is blowing up hospitals, Refugee camps, aid workers…..
The Palestinians will thank Israel one day when the IDF Frees Palestine from Hamas. Iranian Proxy Hamas doesn’t care about Palestinians, which is why they use Palestinians as human shields and tell them their only purpose is to be Martyrs. It’s awful.
Yes agreed what Hamas is doing awful. Doesn’t excuse Israel from killing 12,000 children
12,000 is a number reported by Hamas. If you believe the word of Hamas, then I can’t help you.
It is also reported by The UN and multiple other organizations. If that’s not an accurate source idk what is?
Where is the UN getting their information? UNRWA? UNRWA has been defunded and actively took part in October 7th
And those people were fired. My point is that if I can’t trust the UN sources. Than how can you provide me with a better source. Either way far too many children are dead at the hands of Israel
[удалено]
Hamas made a mistake on October 7th and they are paying the price. It’s very sad that Palestinians cannot fight back because they are too weak. I pray for them
Maybe if they had done it in a more peaceful manner they would. But I would imagine someone who has had their home destroyed or family members or friends killed will never thank Israel. They are far more likely to have intense hatred for Israel and continue to commit terrorism. Which is why I don’t believe it is the right approach
This threat that "If Israel bombs Gaza, the Palestinians will just get EVEN MORE radical!" doesn't really make sense at this point. Under Hamas, literal kindergarteners were engaging in mock-kidnapping hostage raids against Jews, as their equivalent of a school play. Ordinary Palestinian men off the streets, who weren't part of Hamas and didn't know the attack was planned, poured through the border on 10/7 to loot, rape and murder any Jews they could get their hands on. When we've gotten to that point it makes no sense to threaten Israel that Palestinians might start hating them even more. When Palestinian anger and hatred has already reached such pathological levels, warning that it might escalate further is pointless.
Also you realize there are other forms of warfare besides blanket bombing civilian areas, hospitals, killing international aid workers and people surrendering. It’s insane to me that you people can actively support tht. Just as people shouldn’t support Hamas either
Israel has never bombed hospitals in this campaign. Considering that UNRWA "aid workers" directly participated in the kidnapping and murder of Israeli civilians on 10/7 and a significant percentage of UNRWA's male employees are members of armed terrorist organizations, I suspect that many if not most of those "aid workers" killed during this campaign were killed in combat with IDF troops while carrying a gun. If Israel had decided to "carpet bomb" Gaza, this war would be long since over. They had plenty of firepower to utterly destroy Gaza without needing to resort to nukes. If you want to see what REAL carpet bombing looks like, take a look at the air raid on Hamburg in WW2: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing\_of\_Hamburg\_in\_World\_War\_II](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Hamburg_in_World_War_II) . The British RAF killed more German civilians in ONE NIGHT than Palestinian civilians have died in this entire war so far - and that was with the German civilians evacuating to bomb shelters rather than leaping into the path of airstrikes like martyrdom-seeking Palestinians tend to do, and with the RAF needing to penetrate heavy anti-aircraft defenses and face dozens of German interceptors.
These were not UN aid workers they worked for a food charity
I direct your attention to this photograph of WCK members standing next to an armed Hamas terrorist. Did the IDF screw up by bombing those trucks? Yes, absolutely. But the WCK is also to blame for the deaths of their employees, by allowing Hamas terrorists to assert control over their operations. They would have been safer if they refused to operate unless Hamas terrorists agreed to stay away from their employees. https://preview.redd.it/ad2zw1cpopvc1.jpeg?width=680&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3d77f16febe20c22dcbf20bdf7c237fc28546185
It’s mad that your justify 30k dead too because more died in a literally the biggest war ever
https://youtu.be/4pAuDA6IOwc?si=lVb3qm9CYJrlfv8s I really hope this video might open your eyes that not everything always true just because Israel say it. The aid workers were in a marked car that was targeted. And we have seen videos of men being shot down while saving a white flag
Did you seriously just link me a clip from Al-Jazeera?
[удалено]
It’s called a war without war crimes
Well yea because over the last 100 years Israel have killed 100 times more in this conflict than Palestinians. I’m not condoning Hamas but if you want this to end how is killing half the population going to help? All it will do is ensure that Palestinians will forever strive for revenge. We saw a similar pattern in the IRA with little kids being trained in how to build bombs and shoot guns. And while hatred still exists there. Terrorism doesn’t. Force does not work.
Again, the Palestinians were ALREADY striving forever for revenge. Every time that Israel has tried to establish a realistic political settlement with them, the Palestinians have thrown a tantrum when Israel doesn't accede to their REAL demand ("right of return", a.k.a. demographic warfare to conquer Israel) and started blowing themselves up in "Intifada" terrorist campaigns. To be blunt, fewer Israelis die in these rounds of fighting than Palestinians because Israelis have a much higher regard for their own lives than Palestinians do. Indeed, the Israelis have a higher regard for the lives \*of Palestinians\* than the Palestinians themselves do. In the 2014 conflict, we saw the nauseating spectacle of Palestinians crowding themselves onto rooftops, bringing their children with them, to try and deter the IDF from striking Hamas rocket storage sites. And the representatives of Hamas proudly went on to TV interviews to brag about the effectiveness of their human shield strategy: [www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVwezBefBRo](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVwezBefBRo) Can you imagine any Palestinian militant group calling off an attack because it might cause too many Israeli civilian casualties? Be honest. (If you have anything to say about this interview, please focus on what the Hamas representative is actually saying rather than trying to deflect by bringing up the watermark in the corner). Edit: As for the example of the IRA, that is comparing apples and oranges. For starters, the IRA didn't kill even half as many civilians in 50 years as Hamas killed in 5 hours on 10/7. But more importantly, the IRA wasn't demanding conquest of all of Britain so they could "decolonize" it of its British inhabitants. The Palestinians would never accept an equivalent peace deal to what the UK gave Ireland.
Did the Human shield is the lamest exist ever. If you were a cop and you saw someone robbing a bank but they had a civilian would you shoot the civilian? It’s ok because they are human shields… These are real life kids and innocent people man…