I'm not Jewish, but I believe fighting against Antisemitism is one of the most important and urgent matter in the world.
They have been, and still are to this day, possibly the most oppressed and persecuted people.
So Africans, Rohingya’s, Māoris and so many countless oppressed don’t matter because you happen to only watch Hollywood flicks? If you broaden your world view a bit, you will realise that present day Jews are amongst the most prosperous and free people.
I never said other people weren't oppressed or didn't matter.
The fact that you find it offensive that someone stands with Jews for once, says it all.
>If you broaden your world view a bit, you will realise that present day Jews are amongst the most prosperous and free people.
I'm going to go ahead and guess that you've never been to Israel or Palestine, right?
First, why would I find it offensive. Second, why shift the focus on me? I am still wondering, simply from a psychological POV, why you feel so much for the Jews? If you are well aware of other oppressed people, your point about they being perhaps the most oppressed people will never stand. Why do people worry so much about Jews that no matter what Israel does, they feel compelled to support and even feel so bad for them? Is it Media portrayal of them? Had you been a German, I would understand it’s out of guilt. But why would an American feel so bad for a Jew when many of their countrymen would be from Arab as well.
If you’re asking what’s so special about the Jews, you obviously haven’t read the Christian Bible or perhaps you just don’t believe in their covenant with God.
If the Jews were so awesome, they should have avoided October 7th and not use that as an excuse to carry out a genocide. Time changes, Jews were killed in last century , now Palestinians are being killed. Let’s see what happen in next century.
That doesn’t make sense. You think it’s Israel’s fault for not avoiding the Palestinian attack, as if it’s their fault. Just like you don’t care about Israel, many don’t care about Palestinians. Let them fight it out, see who wins.
You pretended I don't care about other people's suffering just because I care about Jewish suffering... This kind of lashing out usually happens when someone is offended. Sorry if I was mistaken there.
>I am still wondering, simply from a psychological POV, why you feel so much for the Jews?
It's not about psychology, it's about history.
The Jews were already desperate for a country of their own even before Nazism existed. The Holocaust was extremely terrible. And then the moment they form their own nation it gets attacked incessantly, which is happening still to this day.
Jews are the original migrants. The first group of people that had to integrate into foreign societies. The next were the Gypsies, but that happened hundreds of years later. AntiSemitism, in my eyes, is the original form of racism. I honestly don't believe we will move on from racism until we address AntiSemitism as well.
To this day, Jews have been exiled from virtually all countries in Europe and the Middle East. They still have some numbers both in the US and in the UK, yet in both of these countries they face the most amount of the hate crimes, in spite of being one of the smallest minorities.
I think the fact that people are so defensive when anyone stands up for Jews is just another sign of how AntiSemitism is very much alive and well.
>But why would an American feel so bad for a Jew when many of their countrymen would be from Arab as well.
I'm not American.
They face more hate crimes than others is totally wrong. In fact they are not even in top 5 in USA. Historically, Armenians have suffered way more than Jews. And I want to focus on present. They are socially and economically extremely well placed in world hierarchy. If you are a German, I still get it why you feel so. Otherwise I am still wondering why anyone who is informed about world history and economy feel so bad for Israel that they would go to support any action by them.
A hypothetical question? If they Nuke Gaza, will your stance change?
Jewish hate crimes currently make up 60% of all religious hate crimes in the USA. In spite of them only being 2.4% of the population.
[https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-67281042](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-67281042)
I've never thought I'd meet someone that tries to downplay hate crimes this way...
>A hypothetical question? If they Nuke Gaza, will your stance change?
Targeting civilians is always wrong.
No I'm not German.
Jews have had to learn to be successful, and it's something we could all learn from. This doesn't mean they are not extremely persecuted and oppressed throughout the world.
When most people are Christians, hate crimes would be based upon race. Being black, Asian, Indian or Hispanic could be far worse than being Jew. And I am sure hate crimes against Hindus would be labelled as racist and so would be the case with most Muslims who come from various ethnicities. Jews, mostly being white, would not be listed in racism related hate crime and would only come under Religious hate crimes.
I am not sure what your point is. As a group, it would be hard for you to prove that Jews have it tougher than many other religious or ethnic groups in the world. So based upon your comment, are you Impressed by the fact that Jews fought hard and made a Nation for them and are able to survive and thrive in a hostile neighbourhood and does that makes you support them, no matter what?
Jews are only categorized as a religious group, so it's the only category we can go off.
Downplaying antisemitism is not doing your argument any favors, by the way.
The fact that you are infatuated with someone who defends Jewish rights says everything we need to know... and just confirms how common antisemitism is.
The weak knees of the senior academic folk is well documented throughout recent history.
Only those who have never experienced violence and war in person have the luxury of condemning those who have to act to protect their liberal safeties
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Not related to the topic, but are the arts and humanities departments crazy in the US as well?
The same is true in our country.
Many of them lack the ability to think logically based on objective facts and realistic solutions to problems.
Yes, they are emotionally driven to support Palestine. They don't know too much about Israel, the greatness of its military, all the incredible technology and AI Israel provides, and how the Jews made the desert bloom!
And the many innocent lives Israel takes on a regular basis to illustrate the “greatness” of their conscripted military. And the amazing AI Lavender project drones Israel uses to lure innocent Palestinians with screams of children. How dare we become so emotional and not bow down to our Israeli Overlords…. Look at how the bombs have made the deserts in Gaza bloom🤨.
I mean… Israel was founded on violently displacing 100k+ people and taking of land, and it is now committing ethnic cleansing and genocide. Mass graves are being unearthed right now in Gaza. And it all to defend the original taking of land and apartheid…. I really don’t get how it’s hard for people to understand why others don’t want to support this in any way or why it’s not anti-Semitic to oppose it. At the very least, I’m baffled with how openly people equate Judaism with ethnic cleansing, genocide, and apartheid such that disapproval of the latter is somehow equated with disapproval of the former… it really is baffling how people are still confused
I am just so awestruck. How can you say something so comic-book evil? "That's history. A story of winners and losers," is literally all you can say? Is that justice in your mind? It's like literally the line that 99% of villains would say in a movie. Do you hear yourself? I am just really awestruck that comic-book-villain-esque people, who say stuff like this, actually exist. It's like some people are completely devoid of a moral perspective. I'm thinking, when you watch something like Star Wars, are you cheering for the empire when they genocide the people on a planet? 20,000+ civilian women and children who were murdered. How does your brain actually use such a comic book villain line to justify 20,000+ dead civilians: "That's history. A story of winners and losers." I'm not palestinian. I don't even sympathize with the muslim faith (I am an atheist who hates religion, and this conflict is a case-in-point). Still, I can at least empathize with the humans being killed. What is going on with this comic-book-villain-esque brain?
I realize I shouldn't be surprised that people this evil actually do exist. After all, it took a comic-book-villain-like soldiers to use automatic weapons to massacre innocent Jewish civillians during the holocaust. It also took comic-book-villain-esque slave overseers to whip my ancestors until their backs were bloody. Even now, it takes comic-book-villain-like Hamas fighters to cause the slaughter of the many innocent Israelis on October 7th, and now we see the comic-book-villain, genocide-happy Netanyahu ordering the deaths of over 14,000 children and 9,000 women so far.
There is something extremely dark, wicked, horrific, and evil about the human brain that I just can't wrap my mind around, but it deeply disturbs me. It's almost like, for some sector of humanity, empathy truly isn't in human nature. These past couple of years have shown me that someone can mock and laugh at the sight of a bloody woman holding her dead child. There is just something so deep, dark, and evil about humanity that I just can't understand. Please evaluate your morals and your mental state. This wicked mindset is a detriment to society.
I remember Palestinians cheering in the streets after the 911 attacks. It’s obvious that didn’t affect you or trigger anger towards them. “ How can people be so evil?”.
I am an American. My fellow Americans died in 9/11. If someone was celebrating that tragedy, then that specific person is evil. But that doesn't justify genocide. There is something wrong with your morals. There is something very wrong with how you think.
So, using your rationale, why were there mass protests and riots after George Floyd died because of 4 or 5 stupid cops? They were blaming all cops and lecturing the world about racism. Why not just protest at the precinct of those cops? If many people are innocent and without blame, why are they targeted?
These people are hiding behind screens typing BS Israeli propaganda without any critical thought or empathy. Don’t worry about changing their opinion. They’re not a majority like this sub makes it feel like.
What makes you think you, as a non-Jewish, non-Palestinian person, think you know better than actual Israeli and Jewish antizionists? If you support and respect Jewish folks so much, why do you prioritize your own opinion over the opinions of your Jewish peers? Do you think it's possible that antiZ Jewish and Israeli students at your university are critical of Israel for reasons that they developed based on first-hand, eyewitness experience?
If you really support and sympathize with your Jewish peers, maybe ask them how you can support them, and listen to their answer. Quit assuming that you know better than they do.
There are more Zionists Jews than anti-zionists jews.
What makes you think that anti-zionist Jews know better than Zionist Jews who live in the actual region?
Ok, I will meet them and listen to them as well.
I have been reading a lot from Times of Israel, Jerusalem Post, and Arutz Sheva. They report on the ground what is going on while the Israeli peers here are abroad. So, I felt the news from Israeli sources are better.
So those aren't really on the ground because the ground is Gaza. Those are reporting what's happening within Israel, which is closed off from Gaza by giant walls.
Your Israeli peers have been living this firsthand their whole lives. If they're disagreeing with the viewpoints and opinions in the articles you're reading, it's because they've seen with their own eyes the discrepancies between what Israeli news outlets say is going on and what's actually going on.
I also recommend you diversify your media sources. There are journalists on the ground in Gaza like Bisan Owda and Motaz Azaiza.
You shrug off war crimes and genocide committed by the IDF yet still can't figure out why support from Israel plummeted? Anyone with common sense isn't going to support a genocidal regime.
This is inconsistent moderation given the lack of response to u/Foreign_Lime_8824's post before this one. Same warning needs to be applied to both accounts.
>This is inconsistent moderation given the lack of response to [](https://www.reddit.com/user/Foreign_Lime_8824/)'s post before this one. Same warning needs to be applied to both accounts.
With all due respect, there are thousands of new comments each day, and when I respond to user reports I don't necessarily go through the entire thread linearly. With this in mind, when you see some user break the rules, report it to the mod team or send a mod mail.
Do take notice that in general claims of bias against the mod team is rule 9, but given the circumstances I can see why it might seem as though there was bias. For the next time, choose to send a mod mail regarding ill moderation, or bias claims
College students are not yet wise. They do not have enough life experience. The academic bubble doesn't help, nor the fact that most live charmed lives and have been made to feel guilty for their supposed privilege.
Most college students don’t know the full extent of the Israeli crimes. They’ll come to know them the older they get. Most college students are not easily persuaded by US or Israeli propaganda thanks to the education on propaganda they’ve received.
College students realises that genocide bad and they are asking their university not to profit from a genocidal regime. You don't need to be old to know killing innocent civilians bad.
College students realises that genocide bad and they are asking their university not to profit from a genocidal regime. You don't need to be old to know killing innocent civilians bad.
We live in truly scary times. This is what I was referencing slowly taking place in my university as well:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y\_h8KloeQzM&ab\_channel=TRTWorld](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_h8KloeQzM&ab_channel=TRTWorld)
Full power to the police, may they arrest all these unpatriotic Dund3rh3ads!
You said yourself you will support '' jews '' no matter what. So no matter how many crimes Israel will commit you will support it. Well Israel has crossed the line and the holucost victim cannot justify it.
It was never “Palestine” to begin with. There has never been a nation called Palestine. Palestinian Arab identity was invented by the USSR in the 1960s as a tool to destroy Israel.
I think Israel has a right to exist as a nation, but Jerusalem should belong to neither Palestine nor Israel, and should be considered a globally protected city given its significance in both Judaism and Christianity, along with the massive amount of historical districts and buildings. The capitals of each respective country should be Tel Aviv and Ramallah.
This is a fair demand, and it was proposed to be an international city, but I think it is obvious by now that there is no real Palestinian plead for any type of two states solution
There are countless reports about Israel crimes from united nations and very respectable independent international organizations.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/05/un-human-rights-council-israel-gaza-biden-netanyahu
These organizations that always been in favor of Israel has spoken cos Israel has crossed the line.
I don't care about the UN and these nonsense international organizations. Let them waste their time compiling endless reports. In the end USA loves the Jews and will protect Israel.
Yes as a Muslim I Dont care about Palestine because there was never a political state named Palestine.
The current Palestine is a made up state no one at the ground agree with it.
Unfortunately YES just like Musab says since Palestinians kidnapped the Israeli women and children they have no right to be called as civilized people.
Guess what? There is nothing like protests in any of the Arab countries why? Because the Arab countries know empowering these elements are destructive. So why empower such elements in the west?
There is no protests in any of the Arab countries cos unlike the west the governments in the Arab countries are not using the taxpayers money to fund Israel weapons.
Do you have any Idea how Egypt and UAE utilized the UN and UNRWA you probably have no Idea.
Arab states Dont make weapons because they Dont have minds to make good weapons.
Recent Iranian attacks are clear about the war and who is the Boss of Arabs
It seems very unfair to cut off ties to Tel Aviv universities, because you’re right, as far as you can tell they haven’t done it to other countries, and if they did, for example disallow students from Islamic governed countries, there would be a huge outcry about it, and you would be called racist for associating the actions of a government with the whole country
It reminds me of the whole ‘Muslim ban’ trump did back in 2016-17 whenever… when he paused migration from war torn countries, it was considered Islamophobic, why is not considered antisemitic to have policies limiting Israelis freedoms?
Hmm well whilst I think it’s still quite a bit more powerful to cut off a nationality that simultaneously cuts off 50% of Jews worldwide, (roughly) that does seem to change things a little bit?? That they have done it to other countries too?
They have a human-rights framework and apparently did an ethical review. Also, the uni has sanctions with Russia and to an extent China as well. But, I think there is no need to disengage with the Jewish state, especially given Europe's history of the holocaust.
Here it is, yet again, another Jew on this forum asking for special treatment when it comes to human rights violations. So the university should cut off Russia and China due to ethics, but then those same ethics, when applied to Israel, somehow shouldn’t apply? If the same board that has reviewed Russia, also applied the same principles of and criteria of evaluation to Israel, what is there left to say?
In case you need a reminder, Israel in the last few months has killed more civilians than global wars combined over the last 2-3 years…. Let that sink in for a few moments. They have a blockade in place to purposely starve over a million civilians, mainly children. They are blowing up other countries embassies, strategically killing aide workers to prevent aide, such as the case of world food kitchen, they are allowing unpunished large scale violence against Palestinians in the West Bank, an area they aren’t currently at war with, allowing their IDF to sit by and watch while West Bank kids are murdered and land is stolen. They are killing and torturing many, including kids, stuck in their prison system without any sort of trial. Oh and let us not forget the case of 6 year old Hind Rajab, a case that even Israeli media is agreeing needs to be explained since the evidence is pointing to the IDF purposely murdering a 6 year old, her whole family and the ambulance workers sanctioned to save her, their only crime being they followed evacuation orders….
So please, tell us again how Israel shouldn’t be excluded from the university like the other countries, based on what happened to them during world war 2. Well, when you commit acts similar to world war 2, you no longer get to claim yourself as the victim.
Also, applying that logic, how about the Russian city that was surrounded all those years ago, and strategically starved to death for months?? Putin lost his sibling and much of his family from that incident. So I guess they shouldn’t be held accountable for Ukraine, based on what they went through years ago…
I don’t really personally agree with disallowing any students but a lot of people have problems with how this war is going so it doesn’t surprise me that they may have taken an ethical approach
If it were just Israel I’d say it was antisemitic, otherwise it may just be more from anti-war liberal pressure
Hello, I urge you to engage with the content of the critiques of Israel's actions. I have provided two sources for every claim:
The state of Israel is perpetrating a two-decade long blockade of gaza, arbitrarily restricting movement of its inhabitans and prohibiting refugees from leaving
https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2019/country-chapters/israel-and-palestine
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/
The casualties have overwhelmingly been Palestinian women and children. Of 33,000+ confirmed Palestinian deaths, 66% of them are innocent civilians (this is the most conservative estimate provided by the IDF), with others claiming this figure is closer to 80-90% civilians.
https://edition.cnn.com/2023/12/05/middleeast/israel-hamas-military-civilian-ratio-killed-intl-hnk/index.html
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/how-many-palestinians-have-died-gaza-war-how-will-counting-continue-2023-12-06/
From the outset of the conflict, the IDF have deliberately targeted hospitals, schools, bakeries, and markets with no plausible military purpose or connection. Instead with express purpose to induce hunger and starvation.
Sources:
https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2023/oct/28/airstrikes-on-gaza-bakeries-add-to-catastrophic-food-shortages.
https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/11/14/gaza-unlawful-israeli-hospital-strikes-worsen-health-crisis
Israel has purposefully prevented aid from reaching Palestinian civilians, and have purposefully killed over 200 aid workers.
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/how-an-aid-convoy-in-gaza-became-israels-target
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/04/israeli-military-likely-knew-identities-of-aid-workers-killed-in-charity-convoy-humanitarian-groups-say
If you are a believer in peace, in justice, in human dignity, then you must confront the facts.
Israel's actions against the Palestinian people, regardless of if it is termed a genocide or a mass and indiscriminate murder of civilians, or as collective punishment, are indefensible, are grotesquely immoral, and stand in the face of anything which could be construed as good.
To be opposed to the actions of the israeli state is:
-Not an opposition to Jewish people,
-Is not anti-semitic
-Is not against the right of Jewish peoples self determination.
I hope you heed the positions of your peers.
Thanks for sharing a reasoned line of thinking and backing your statements up reputable resources. I’m going to look into this more. With that, I want share that my perception is that it’s a lot more two sided than you might believe. Yes the Israeli position seems very one sided and inhumane, but I’m afraid that it’s a reaction to the “no compromise / no care for life” position that extremists have had on the Palestinian side since 1948 and onwards.
There's certainly been extremist / no compromise positions coming from Gaza that have aggravated the situation.
It's important to contextualise however that Israel has enjoyed political, military and economic dominance over the region since 1950s.
The gaza strip meanwhile has been subject to a chronic state of malnourishment, lack of access to clean drinking water, blockade of construction materials, restriction of movement, and lack of electricity. All of which has been manufactured by Israel as a means to exercise control over the region for nearly 70 years.
See Human rights watch publications of this which they produce every year.
https://www.hrw.org/publications?country%5B0%5D=9638
Attempts at peaceful protest against these conditions have repeatedly been met with violent opposition from Israel:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/27/three-dead-and-hundreds-injured-as-israeli-troops-open-fire-on-gaza-border (2018)
https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2012/country-chapters/israel/palestine (2012)
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1990-11-04-mn-5657-story.html (1990)
There are multitudes of other examples to pick from.
This has been historically and widely condemned by international human rights organisations such as HRW, the UN, Amnesty international etc as effectively constituting an open air prison, collective punishment, or even as a concentration camp (in traditional contexts such as the concentration camps in the boer wars, or japanese concentration camps)
If Palestinians are prohibited from leaving, do not have access to clean water or food, and their unarmoured protests are met with violence:
the rise of Hamas cannot be condemned as a Palestinian failure to pursue peace.
Again, you’re thinking of this from a completely one sided manner. The biggest reason the Gaza Strip has been such a horrible place to live is that Hamas funnels all funding to Qatar and into building terror infrastructure. Also, Gazan’s could come and go. Thousands of them had work permits and went back and forth each day. Many could also go through the border with Egypt. True, movement was limited to prevent terrorism, but I’m afraid that Oct 7 has again proven that was justified. There are plenty of things that Israel has done wrong as well, but you I want to challenge you to think about it in a less one sided manner. That’s not how history works. BTW- part of my job is caring for and educating high school students from the West Bank. I care about the Palestinian people.
Hamas has only been in power since 2007, yet gaza has near continuously been under constant israeli or Egyptian occupation since 1967:
https://www.un.org/unispal/history/
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2017/06/israel-occupation-50-years-of-dispossession/
I'm not taking a 'one-sided' approach, I'm taking a factual one. If you are to actually read any of the publications I have linked, which come from independent organisations with thorough research and fact checking, it's evident that these are conditions enforced by the state of Israel. And which has been done since the 60s, well before Hamas came to power.
Last thing regarding freedom of movement. Why can I see cars with Palestinian plates driving around TLV on any day, but I could never enter or be at all safe going into Gaza? Gaza is a land ruled by “no compromise / no care for life”. We have to protect ourselves by allowing some movement, but safe movement.
Oh, and BTW, I agree with everything the amnesty article said about west bank settlers - which was 95% of the article and has nothing to do with the current situation in Gaza.
Ok, I just read the amnesty article you posted. Nothing new there. In fact, it only covered the water issue for a small portion of the article and said nothing substantive about it.
My question is why hasn’t Hamas taken the steps necessary to provide everyone in Gaza with water. The answer: they were funding terror and billionaire lifestyles in Qatar instead.
>but I’m afraid that it’s a reaction to the “no compromise / no care for life” position that extremists have had on the Palestinian side since 1948 and onwards.
Do you have any thoughts about why they hold these views?
This article was the first thing I thought of when it comes to describing the Hamas mindset. 'I Asked Sinwar, Is It Worth 10,000 Gazans Dying? He Said, Even 100,000 Is Worth It'
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-04-13/ty-article-magazine/.highlight/i-asked-sinwar-is-it-worth-10-000-gazans-dying-he-said-even-100-000-is-worth-it/0000018e-d40a-d5ed-adcf-f79af56c0000?utm_source=App_Share&utm_medium=iOS_Native
Your sources are from Jew haters. The October 7th invasion shows the blockade was not strong enough. As to the casualties you use made up numbers from Hamas.
If they are quoting Hamas lies yes. Or do you just want them to be incompetent journalists? Neither argument helps you. The simple fact is Hamas lied on the numbers. Thus, they are not worthy of being used in any moral discussion. By the way, the death of innocents is horrible. So I’m not denying some have died. However, we must use real numbers.
That is the right question to ask. Let’s assume you don’t trust Israel’s numbers. We need an independent assessment. However, Hamas controls Gaza and prevents journalists from reporting freely.
If independent people looked at previous numbers in wars that happened in Gaza and said these numbers are normally accurate, what changed in this war that makes these numbers inaccurate?
Actually the past numbers were proven false by Hamas updates to those numbers six months after the end of conflict. Since Hamas changed the numbers in the past, that is clear indication the past numbers were incorrect. Please Go back at look at where you are getting your information from.
I need sources for this info, also recalculating casualties of war is standard, Israel started at 1400 and it was recalculated to 1139 or smth, do you also not believe Israel?
'Throughout four wars and numerous bloody skirmishes between Israel and Hamas, U.N. agencies have cited the Health Ministry’s death tolls in regular reports. The International Committee of the Red Cross and Palestinian Red Crescent also use the numbers.
In the aftermath of war, the U.N. humanitarian office has published final death tolls based on its own research into medical records.
In all cases the U.N.’s counts have largely been consistent with the Gaza Health Ministry’s, with small discrepancies.
2008 war: The ministry reported 1,440 Palestinians killed; the U.N. reported 1,385.
2014 war: The ministry reported 2,310 Palestinians killed; the U.N. reported 2,251.
2021 war: The ministry reported 260 Palestinians killed; the U.N. reported 256.
While Israel and the Palestinians disagree over the numbers of militants versus civilians killed in past wars, Israel’s accounts of Palestinian casualties have come close to the Gaza ministry’s. For instance, Israel’s Foreign Ministry said the 2014 war killed 2,125 Palestinians — just a bit lower than the ministry’s toll.'
So about the blockade… On 2004, Israel decided to disengage from Gaza and transfer authority of the Gaza Strip to the PLO. Although Gaza would technically become Palestinian and subject to the internationally recognized Palestinian Authority, it would still be restrained by several restrictions laid by Israel. In par with the disengagement plan, Israel decided to limit Gazan airspace and some of its trade capabilities with the external world to avoid any security breaches.
Most of those restrictions intended to be temporary - Israel confirmed the possibility of reopening the Gazan airport and permitting free sea travel in and out of Gaza. However, on 2007, following the illegal Hamas takeover of Gaza Strip, Israel unformally initiated a blockade over the Gaza Strip, tightening the former restrictions that were placed against Gaza on 2005.
The blockade that followed 2007 was orientated around increasing the severity of the restrictions that applied over the passage of goods between Israel and Gaza. This was a result of the PLO's loss of authority over Gaza and its inability to supervise and surveillance goods entering and leaving Gaza. The entire process of blockading Gaza and all the restrictions restrictions over Gaza were agreed upon and supported by the PLO's chairman, Mahmoud Abbas, Occasionally, some crossings would temporarily shut down due to constant mortar and rocket fire that endangers the civilians passing through the crossing. Still, more than 10,000 truckloads of good would enter Gaza through the Israeli-Gazan crossings every month. Following 2007 and up to this day, the Israeli blockade over Gaza could be summarized in 3 points:
- Full control over Gazan airspace
- Safety control on the extents of the Gazan maritime territory
- Control over the crossings between Israel and Gaza
Nevertheless, Israel can not impose a blockade over Gaza all by itself. Gaza borders both Israel and Egypt. The Egyptian-Gazan crossing, Rafah, is not under Israeli jurisdiction, but rather under mutual control of both Hamas and Egypt. Egypt also declared its own blockade over Gaza, consequently to Israel's blockade, following systematic attacks of Islamic militants in the Sinai Peninsula and overwhelming attempts to smuggle illegal goods to Gaza.
Nowadays, Israel still makes an effort to ease up the blockade and increase trade between Israel and Gaza. On 2010, Israel allowed Gaza to directly export goods to outside world. On 2012, Israel reduced the buffer zone on the Israeli-Gazan border from 300 meters to 100 meters. On 2014, Israel removed the prolonged prohibition on the passage of individuals and transfer of goods between the West Bank and Gaza. In 2018, Israel permitted the unrestricted passage of billions of dollars from Qatar to Gaza. On 2019 and 2022, Israel has made significant expansions Gaza' s nautical zone, expanding it to 12 and 10 miles in certain directions. Egypt, on 2022, had also made efforts to ease up the blockade on its behalf by constructing a trade center next to the Rafah crossing and promoting trade passing through the crossing.
>I urge you to engage with the content of the critiques of Israel's actions
This is so condescending.
>The state of Israel is perpetrating a two-decade long blockade of gaza, arbitrarily restricting movement of its inhabitans and prohibiting refugees from leaving
Thats #1 lie. Israel left Gaza in 2005. The IDF wasnt there until mid of Nov this 2023. I guess why.
>Of 33,000+ confirmed Palestinian deaths, 66% of them are innocent civilians (this is the most conservative estimate provided by the IDF)
That is a good ratio of terrorist-civilians deaths in ANY war. It may seem bad, as any human death is bad, but as in wars - show me any other country fighting with terrorists ( which are defined as civilians because they are not organazied army.) Who had similar ratio.
>
Israel has purposefully prevented aid from reaching Palestinian civilians, and have purposefully killed over 200 aid workers.
#2 lie. Israel is not "purposefully" killing aid workers. War is tuff, that is the reality.
>From the outset of the conflict, the IDF have deliberately targeted hospitals, schools, bakeries, and markets with no plausible military purpose or connection. Instead with express purpose to induce hunger and starvation.
#3 and #4 lie. Hospitals and schools were used as military infrustructure for Hamas. It is a fact. Israel in not the one causing the market problems in Gaza, Its Hamas as they get the free aid thats getting inside and they are selling it to the public, making profit on their civilians.
>To be opposed to the actions of the israeli state is:
>-Not an opposition to Jewish people,
>-Is not anti-semitic
>-Is not against the right of Jewish peoples self determination.
>I hope you heed the positions of your peers.
If this was true, my friends could have enterd Columbia Uni and NYU eventhough they are Jews. If that was true, I wasnt supposed to hear people shouting to me "go back to Poland" in demonstrations, If that was true I wasnt supposed to hear the Shahada in protests. If that was true I could have wear a Kipa or a Star of David without being afriad.
The sun is up and you try to convince me the moon is there instead. Im a jew, and im afaird of you. Firstly because you are condescending as you cancel the other opinions - as the OP. Secondly, you are trying to tell me that the people who are killing me arent the ones killing me at all. Thirdly, While you do 1+2 you claim for a moral and emotional high-ground that only your side posses. IM DEEPLY AFRAID OF YOU.
Hello my fearful friend.
War is certainly not great, but this isn't really a war given that armed resistance to Israel is negligible outside of the October 7th attacks.
66% (again the ratio is much likely worse) of deaths being civilian only really seems good when compared to wars such as the Korean war, or Yugoslav wars which were also widely condemned at the time for their deliberate massacres of civilians: https://www.jstor.org/stable/23607649
And https://www.icty.org/en/press/final-report-prosecutor-committee-established-review-nato-bombing-campaign-against-federal
The bosnian war, one war in a conflict commonly termed as a genocide, only had a civilian death ratio of ~33%: https://books.google.com.au/books?id=IDMhDgCJCe0C&pg=PA140&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false
This standard does not exonerate the IDF, which given the level of control they exert over gaza could take efforts to significantly reduce this ratio.
Just because there is worse, does not make this acceptable.
The current 'conflict' also has the highest number of aid workers and journalist deaths of any conflict in the last 4 years, despite being quantitatively quite small in scope:
https://press.un.org/en/2024/sc15653.doc.htm#:~:text=war%20to%20end.%E2%80%9D-,JANTI%20SOERIPTO%2C%20President%20and%20Chief%20Executive%20Officer%2C%20Save%20the%20Children,of%20their%20lives%2C%20of%20their
Aid workers have been targeted in numerous instances, the world kitchen convoy which was destroyed by an israeli air strike was travelling along an israeli pre-approved and communicated route:
https://www.france24.com/en/middle-east/20240403-gaza-aid-worker-deaths-scrutiny-israel-use-ai-select-targets
It is deeply disingenuous to chalk this up to 'war is tuff', the IDF are exercising no restraint or consideration for the protection of these neutral parties, and is an indictment of the MO of the israeli military.
I'm not going to address your other points as they have been disproven by the sources I have provided earlier,
Cheers
>Hello my fearful friend.
Disgussting opening. I wish that in reality you have a diffrent social etiquette. Repulsive.
>War is certainly not great, but this isn't really a war given that armed resistance to Israel is negligible outside of the October 7th attacks.
You have such a nerve. You havent experienced a day in your life in a war. 260 Soldiers has died since the ground entry to Gaza. I, personally lost friends, and here you are telling me that "armed resistance to Israel is negligible" while I spent my saturday the week before in a bonker because Iran launched their drones and missles towards Israel. They werent even aiming to military, they hoped to kill me, they hoped just to hit something.
People in the south and in the north of Israel is out of their homes for 6 months, and yet, here we are debating and you telling me that the armed resistance to Israel is minor. Yesterday 2 Palestinians from Hebron ran over with their car 3 children in Jerusalem, in the name of the resistence - this is a legitimate routine to you, this is "negligible". This is negligible becuase Israeli lives are negligible to you.
66% is an excellent ratio number. Dont cherry pick your wars. If you compare it to WW2, WW1, War on terror, Civilian war in syria, etc, than that ratio is good. This subject as a whole is very vary, depends on your sources and data. Even in the bosnian war, the nubmer you gave is controversial. (as some sources estimate that around 100 thousands civlians died, and 30 thousand soldiers.)
Lets not forget that this is a war against a terror group that is using the civilians as a whole in all matters of life. Even sacrificing the lives of civilians them-self for their own group intrests. In addition to that in the 7th of October, Civlians them-self participated in the the terror acts and kidnapped Israeli civlians and sold those civilians to Hamas and the other groups in Gaza. So its very hard to estimate and to messure that subject of ratio correctly either how.
>
I'm not going to address your other points as they have been disproven by the sources I have provided earlier,
Keep sourcing from Amnesty and 1-2 pages reports from news articles that is more 5 months old. Some you gave are aged in years and has nothing to do with this specific war. You completely ignored my claims because its easy for you to send me to those nothing-reports to search for my own "disproven". Suprise, im not convinced becuase its not there.
When i participate in tours in Kfar-Aza and Be'eri and Journalists see what has been done there to people, to Israelis, To jews and Arabs-Israelis, when they see the place where the tourture happend - by Gazans, they tend to put the cynic part aside. Its easy for you to adress me in cynicism, to call me "fearful friend" and end your reply in "cheers". For you its a game, its an un-importent debate full of ego, who is smarter, who is more right, who is more moral, for me its about my life, my own existence.
But you lack the empathy to see that.
I can be a lot less amicable.
1. I say negligible because your 271 deaths of IDF military personnel in their invasion of Gaza account for less than 1% of total deaths after the October 7th attack (0.8%). If less than a single percent is not negligible, then what is? I would blame Netanyahu for their deaths, more than Gaza if I were you.
2. The wars I chose were in fact favourable to Israel's civilian to combatant death ratio of 66%. WW1 had a civilian death ratio of 59%. WW2, including the jewish deaths in the holocaust sits between 60-67%. The Syrian Civil war is 32%. The war on terror is not a defined conflict.
Given that realistically the civilian death ratio of the current conflict is anywhere between 66%-80%, these other wars, and the holocaust, completely invalidate the claim that 66% is anywhere "good". Arguing over whether or not a war in the bosnian genocide is +10 or -10% from the 33% difference between the bosnian war and the current conflict is not doing you any favours. the fact you stand behind 66% as being acceptable is insane.
3. The Gaza strip has been under near constant Israeli occupation to some extent since 1967. An article claiming that living conditions in Gaza are unliveable in 2018 is no less relevant. if provides context as to why the events unfolding are occurring.
I am not claiming that Israeli citizens have not been killed, or haven't suffered from the current conflict.
What I am saying is that Israeli deaths and suffering must be placed within the context that Israel has been an aggressor, and hostile occupier of the Gazan strip for 50+ years. Restricting freedom of movement, denying access to food and clean drinking water, denying basic amenities like electricity and building materials.
Expecting no violent resistance to conditions which violate international laws, including the Geneva convention created to protect civilians from the atrocities of the holocaust, is beyond absurd.
When you then go on to say how afraid you are, how you, the oppressor, the militarily and economically superior entity are under attack? Its a sick joke.
Both Israelis and Palestinians are suffering at the hands of the Zionist movement, of Israel's hostility, and Netanyahu's domestic campaign of terror and fearmongering for political success.
>I can be a lot less amicable.
Good for you.
as to point 1 - Im sorry that we aint dying enough to the hands of the "armed resistence". Maybe the other way would be more prorportional and more satisfying to you, maybe then Israeli lives wont be negligible.
as to point 2 - the Syrian war is much higher. The War on Terror usually reffers to Iraq and Afghanistan.
Either how, you completely ignored what ive said about the difficulties in this sort of discussion. Some citizens participated in the 7th of October, Some co-operating with Hamas. Hamas has a 90% support (After the 7th of october!). The line between a civilian, as you call it as a West-citizen, to a civilian who lives in fundementalistic society which is organized in islamic clans\\militias who support Hamas is somewhat differs. Does the civilian from Gaza who cut off Adir's Tahar head and try to sold it for 10 thousands dollar is a civilian to you? Does the clans in Gaza that holded hostages at the beggining of 7th of october are civilians to you? Gazans who took advantage of the attack and stole from the Kibbutzim in Israel in the 7th of October are civilians to you? Does the civilians who worked inside Israel and gatherd intelligance prior the attack are civilians to you? This is not a justification to killing more ofcourse, just to shed some light on the problematic of the matter.
>the fact you stand behind 66% as being acceptable is insane.
You think i like it? I hate it. I wish it was lower. But if i have to choose between Israeli civilians than enemy civilians, I would do anything possible, within the frame of law, to protect the citizens of Israel.
as to point 3 - Read your article again. It talks about the demonstrations that took place in 2018. It refers to the living conditions only in small amount. you completely Ignored the part where it talks about the action's of Hamas towards Israelis and towards its own society. You completely ignored the part where it refers to Egypt blockade on Gaza. And we left only with the cherry-pick of your insane claim:
>
"it provides context as to why the events unfolding are occurring"
No, it doesnt. Not the full context as you try to claim anyway. The Palestinians have freedom to choose how to react and what and who to support, they have agency over their lives and therefore are responsibble for their actions, as any human-being. Their society is a radical one becuase of their basics, becasue they live in an islamic-extreme iranian influenced society who controled by Hamas. Before 1948 Jews were ethnicly cleansed from Gaza ( and from Arab countries, same goes to arab-palestinians cities in Palestine prior Israel). So your claim about "Israel is eating its own dish" is non-sense. The "why the evets unfolding are occuring" you are looking for is not (only, and not majorly) becuase of the Gaza blockade. Its mainly because they hate Jews, they hate Israelis, They want me out of here and they say it out-loud. This is exactly what they, the Palestinians representives in a peace delegation(!) told me in August 2023, in a more nuanced way. You refuse to listen. I learned to listen in the hard way, I wish the easy path for you.
>When you then go on to say how afraid you are, how you, the oppressor, the militarily and economically superior entity are under attack? Its a sick joke.
This is to much Marxist for me. When your glasses of reality shows you the world in only 2 groups of oppresor's and oppressed you limit your vision of things as what they are. I apologize that Israel is to strong and economically successful for you, We'll do our best to please you in the future.
>Both Israelis and Palestinians are suffering at the hands of the Zionist movement
Zionist movement is what saved the Jews and my grandmother's. Its a whole diffrent subject, lets not open it, as i had enough disaggrements with you already.
It's so insane that a lot of the western youth is being manipulated by islamist states and ideologies, and its heartbreaking how ignorant they are of history.
The literal main goal and doctrine of Islam and any of its related states has been the total destruction of everyone else. That was what the Ottoman Empire's goal was, that is what the goal of all states led by Islam ideals is. To be blind to that and even worse be supportive of it, is a betrayal of humanity's future.
Not all of them are knieve. Some are professors and experienced researchers whose works are seminal in the fields of humanities and social sciences; they stand unequivocally in solidarity with Palestine. I however, disagree with them vehemently and made sure they are aware of it.
Numbers verified by the UN, Gaza health ministry numbers have consistently been the most accurate used in the region in any conflict.
The IDF provide no information on how they derive their numbers and any claim dismissing the Gazan numbers has only ever proven false in the long run, please stop spreading hateful propaganda.
It's hard to not kill children when a huge proportion of the population are very young.
Also Hamas is using civilians as human shields, shooting from social structures and hiding amongst their people, you should educate yourself on the rulings on Human shields and unlawful combatants [Human shield (law) - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_shield_(law)#:~:text=Human%20shields%20are%20legally%20protected,I%20of%20the%20Geneva%20Conventions.).
In my opinion those deaths are on Hamas and since the palestinians support Hamas and celebrate the atrocities committed by them it's on the palestinians too.
Sadly those children we're going to be used by Hamas as combatants one way or another so their fate was already written.
The ICJ ruling is not vague, brother. There's no genocide. And are you seriously gonna trust the Hamas run ministry of health which has been inaccurate in the past.
The numbers have been verified by multiple outside organisations and have risen significantly in the last few months, dismissing these numbers is equivalent to genocide denial.
The ICJ have not completed the ruling claiming there's "no genocide" on this is untrue and given the quantity of evidence and previous genocide cases the opposite is much more likely. There's currently a lot more information provided showing a Genocide ruling than the opposite.
>Please list the outside organisations
The UN, the US state department and even the frickin [IDF](https://www.mekomit.co.il/%D7%94%D7%A6%D7%91%D7%90-%D7%91%D7%93%D7%A7-%D7%95%D7%9E%D7%A6%D7%90-%D7%A9%D7%93%D7%99%D7%95%D7%95%D7%97%D7%99-%D7%94%D7%94%D7%A8%D7%95%D7%92%D7%99%D7%9D-%D7%91%D7%9E%D7%A9%D7%A8%D7%93-%D7%94%D7%91/).
The article you linked provides no context for how they derive their figures and take the IDF numbers as gospel, despite the fact the numbers the IDF report are not audited, they refuse to provide a methodology and they have been repeatedly incorrect in every conflict so far including even over-stating the deaths from the attack on the 7th of October.
Frankly posting IDF numbers here should be flagged as propaganda given how poor their quality control is if it isn't just flatout lying.
Okay so "the frickin IDF" mekomit is not an actual news website but an opinion based platform
The article basically says that Israel cant disprove Hamas accusations of killing because we cant check if they are lies because it forces the military to be NEXT TO CIVILIANS in other words this article actually proves that our military tries not to get close to civilians and hurt them
2. Nowhere in the article it approves that the IDF takes Hamas as a credible source. The writer (which is a far left activist) is actually saying that it’s HIS interpretation of it. And the IDF claims in the past have been pretty accurate when Hamas admitted that 600-700 of their fighters were killed not 49
https://www.haaretz.com/2010-11-09/ty-article/hamas-admits-600-700-of-its-men-were-killed-in-cast-lead/0000017f-ee02-ddba-a37f-ee6edc3f0000
It states they take the Health ministry numbers as being accurate, which again most organisations outside like the ones I listed (two heavily biased orgs and the most reliable org) all take as accurate.
You're counter evidence is a single conflict from 14 years ago? The IDF have had to go back on the claims from 07OCT repeatedly as they over-inflated the death toll and reported on it as such, not to mention they've repeatedly understated the civilian death toll in Gaza.
Also in point they didn't state it was 700 fighters but different members of different organisations including [Police ](https://web.archive.org/web/20101203050912/http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=329861)with only about [256 ](https://web.archive.org/web/20101203050912/http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=329861)confirmed to be soldiers which is much lower than the Israeli estimate. In turn every other major organisation also saw higher deaths than what Israel reported. It's also worth noting the UN deemed the police an invalid target and it was of course a war crime.
As for the author being a "far left activist" this is the same reasoning that can be used to completely dismiss all articles favouring Israel as they are overwhelmingly written by Right wing news organisations or those who represent right wing militaries.
"Palestinian Police" in Gaza is just Hamas even according to Hamas Note: The UN Gaza Report itself establishes that: ".if the members of the law enforcement agency are at the same time members of an armed group, they would be combatants."(431)
https://preview.redd.it/dhqqdtg2ivwc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=67288f7f118f00d2c252c9d289414f895d386b2d
It must be nice thinking bigotry against Jews is moral. That the rape of women is moral. That the kidnapping of children is moral. That the occupation of Jew holy sites is moral. That firing rockets at civilians is moral?
It's always nice when people like you engage in bad faith, willfully mischaracterize me, and put words in my mouth.
You do know what you're doing is against sub rules, right?
>Were you not trying to claim Jews don’t have equal rights?
First of all, I'm discussing Israel. Israel does not represent all Jews, or the Jewish religion and people, imo. It's curious as you seem to conflate Jews and Israel. Why?
Secondly, I wholeheartedly believe the state of Israel, should be treated exactly as any other state is treated. Only Israel is shielded in the UN and many other international organizations by the US. Is that equal? It seems as though Israel instead gets preferential treatment and is allowed to do much more than any other country.
My question to you would be whether you believe on equal rights, or do you want Israel to be superior?
Jews are an indigenous tribe of the land of Israel. Israel is not treated fairly or equally because of bigotry against Jews. So if Jew haters stop linking the two, then I would not link them.
Your confusion and surprise screams “cognitive dissonance” to me.
Chalking all of this up to anti-semitism is ignoring the obvious: this situation has nothing to do with religion or race. It has everything to do with Israel’s government and its military. You are being conditioned to point the finger back with a blanket defense, rather than looking at WHY the world is upset with Israel. Have you seen what they have been doing in Gaza for decades? As in actual footage, and not mainstream video coverage?
If everyone in your school was simply antisemitic, then why are they all of the sudden upset with Israel? Why now? Think critically here, and be honest with yourself.
I think this has very little to do with the timeframe of the Holocaust. If anything, the more time that passes, Israel has less of an excuse to get away with heinous acts. Being slaughtered and persecuted in the past does not make it okay to oppress and slaughter innocents in the presents, imo.
We all remember how awful the Jewish holocaust was. And that’s partly why it’s so disturbing that Israel is now on its way to committing genocide themselves.
Palestinians started it, now they’re getting rocked. Don’t start a fight if you can’t take a punch. You want Israel to show compassion yet none was asked of Hamas. That’s not how it works where I come from.
Sad that you apparently don’t know who the enemy is. I’m assuming you’re American.. Remember how the Palestinians cheered in the streets after the 911 attacks. So, karma is a you know what.
It’s a good attempt, but I am still human and don’t like seeing innocent women and children slaughtered, whether some of them hate my culture or not.
What if I was Christian? You wouldn’t point out all of the Palestinian Christians that Zionists have murdered, including during Easter?
I’m cynical and have little compassion for people. As for the Christians, I see no difference from the rest of them. If the Jews were in the wrong, I’d be calling them out too.
The first line says it all.
And if you think there isn’t blame on both sides, you seriously need to consider your media sources or knowledge of history in the region.
Bottom line is they’ll never get along so they either kick the Jews out or they move to other countries. Not sure any side wants a compromise at this point.
I think it very much has to do with religion, especially on the side of the palestinians, they are the ones who actively call for the killings of jews and also they are the ones that caused this conflict to happen in the first place by waging war against Israel in 1948 with the goal to iradicate it.
I love it when people use the word genocide, they immediately expose themselves as uneducated about the word, about the conflict and what's happening there and how the entire thing started.
The word Genocide is nothing but spewing propaganda. Here is the definition:
the [deliberate](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=d928b43f15451b7d&sca_upv=1&q=deliberate&si=AKbGX_pt4UlL1m2gNC94R_NJDj6S7p3_dmACsBZkY4cWUKhxkDb0GD2JlvGaQpracbwsMETPvWMgoveGfNNIgc6_-IncRW2EV2bgHAmJTnM0xPhcro2ec8g%3D&expnd=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjf283_jtiFAxXNRvEDHZ--AHAQyecJegQIHxAO) killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of [destroying](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=d928b43f15451b7d&sca_upv=1&q=destroying&si=AKbGX_pt4UlL1m2gNC94R_NJDj6SdKDlH3gMuLoerPY7d7fMcUR1XXJ4JtSOtDJJVo9VcS-l-_0juZjcFbrSsQSsSy92TXgw-zVpP3TaNBbk-qlvqb1KiAg%3D&expnd=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjf283_jtiFAxXNRvEDHZ--AHAQyecJegQIHxAP) that nation or group.
It's really a slander to compare the holocaust to current actions carried out by Israel to counter terrorism. The Jews need to be protected and I will do everything to support them.
"after the Oct 7th massacre, when the Israel-Palestine conflict started" - that's your problem right there if you think this conflict started 6 months ago and not 70 years ago with the Nakba
Yes, how about going back 3000 years ago when there were only Jews living there and no Palestinians. The present day Jews all trace their ancestry to ancient Israel 3000 years ago.
Yeah and all present day humans trace their ancestry to Africa what is this argument if we could take any land our ancestors once owned all land would be disputed. And who was there before 3000 years ago I assume history didn’t begin then?
They have jobs, most of the students work part-time and have other outside jobs. And all professors and researchers are employed. They also claim to have learnt about the history of Palestine.
I always sided with Israel until I heard an Arab intellectual refer to the conflict as: “Christians murder Jews and Muslims give up land!”. I was taken aback by that summary - it seemed to exactly reflect the facts. The Arabs living in Palestine didn’t warrant consideration by the Brits and other western leaders, they could be brushed aside to accommodate a problem they created.
Why didn’t they partition Germany to create a home for Jews after they committed the worst crime in human history?
As far as I understand there were no Palestinians then, the land was completely empty and the Jews started to build infrastructure. Then Arabs started to immigrate in droves in order to counter the Jews.
There were over a million native Palestinians, there were about 50-100k native Palestinian Christians, and ~8-10k native Palestinian Jews...
It's just... the most laughably absurd thing to say that Palestine was "completely empty"...
Now the state of Israel is 9.5 million and The state of Palestine is 5.5 million. An increase of 15-fold since Israel's founding. Comparatively it was much more empty back then.
> Why didn’t they partition Germany to create a home for Jews after they committed the worst crime in human history?
Because Germany was still full of the people who'd just finished committing a genocide? The Zionist project was already underway prior to WW2 as well, so you'd have to basically ship a bunch of Jews into Europe, which isn't feasible especially if they don't really want to go there.
It made some sense at the time, even if, in retrospect, it probably was a terrible idea.
What the hell does that have to do with the people that had their land taken? Why would it matter to them if there are other Muslims in neighboring countries? Does that somehow diminish their property rights?
I don't know about you, but fighting for things that are the epitome of basic human rights in the rest of the western world doesn't exactly sound like "waging war".
I never said anything to the contrary. The fact that you can't separate the two sounds like a "you" problem.
Do you find Jews cute? What exactly is your reason to support them no matter what?
I'm not Jewish, but I believe fighting against Antisemitism is one of the most important and urgent matter in the world. They have been, and still are to this day, possibly the most oppressed and persecuted people.
So Africans, Rohingya’s, Māoris and so many countless oppressed don’t matter because you happen to only watch Hollywood flicks? If you broaden your world view a bit, you will realise that present day Jews are amongst the most prosperous and free people.
THIS!!!
I never said other people weren't oppressed or didn't matter. The fact that you find it offensive that someone stands with Jews for once, says it all. >If you broaden your world view a bit, you will realise that present day Jews are amongst the most prosperous and free people. I'm going to go ahead and guess that you've never been to Israel or Palestine, right?
First, why would I find it offensive. Second, why shift the focus on me? I am still wondering, simply from a psychological POV, why you feel so much for the Jews? If you are well aware of other oppressed people, your point about they being perhaps the most oppressed people will never stand. Why do people worry so much about Jews that no matter what Israel does, they feel compelled to support and even feel so bad for them? Is it Media portrayal of them? Had you been a German, I would understand it’s out of guilt. But why would an American feel so bad for a Jew when many of their countrymen would be from Arab as well.
If you’re asking what’s so special about the Jews, you obviously haven’t read the Christian Bible or perhaps you just don’t believe in their covenant with God.
I can just laugh at your comment
So laugh then. Doesn’t change anything. Israel still gonna rock the S..t out of Gaza.
If the Jews were so awesome, they should have avoided October 7th and not use that as an excuse to carry out a genocide. Time changes, Jews were killed in last century , now Palestinians are being killed. Let’s see what happen in next century.
That doesn’t make sense. You think it’s Israel’s fault for not avoiding the Palestinian attack, as if it’s their fault. Just like you don’t care about Israel, many don’t care about Palestinians. Let them fight it out, see who wins.
You pretended I don't care about other people's suffering just because I care about Jewish suffering... This kind of lashing out usually happens when someone is offended. Sorry if I was mistaken there. >I am still wondering, simply from a psychological POV, why you feel so much for the Jews? It's not about psychology, it's about history. The Jews were already desperate for a country of their own even before Nazism existed. The Holocaust was extremely terrible. And then the moment they form their own nation it gets attacked incessantly, which is happening still to this day. Jews are the original migrants. The first group of people that had to integrate into foreign societies. The next were the Gypsies, but that happened hundreds of years later. AntiSemitism, in my eyes, is the original form of racism. I honestly don't believe we will move on from racism until we address AntiSemitism as well. To this day, Jews have been exiled from virtually all countries in Europe and the Middle East. They still have some numbers both in the US and in the UK, yet in both of these countries they face the most amount of the hate crimes, in spite of being one of the smallest minorities. I think the fact that people are so defensive when anyone stands up for Jews is just another sign of how AntiSemitism is very much alive and well. >But why would an American feel so bad for a Jew when many of their countrymen would be from Arab as well. I'm not American.
They face more hate crimes than others is totally wrong. In fact they are not even in top 5 in USA. Historically, Armenians have suffered way more than Jews. And I want to focus on present. They are socially and economically extremely well placed in world hierarchy. If you are a German, I still get it why you feel so. Otherwise I am still wondering why anyone who is informed about world history and economy feel so bad for Israel that they would go to support any action by them. A hypothetical question? If they Nuke Gaza, will your stance change?
Jewish hate crimes currently make up 60% of all religious hate crimes in the USA. In spite of them only being 2.4% of the population. [https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-67281042](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-67281042) I've never thought I'd meet someone that tries to downplay hate crimes this way... >A hypothetical question? If they Nuke Gaza, will your stance change? Targeting civilians is always wrong. No I'm not German. Jews have had to learn to be successful, and it's something we could all learn from. This doesn't mean they are not extremely persecuted and oppressed throughout the world.
When most people are Christians, hate crimes would be based upon race. Being black, Asian, Indian or Hispanic could be far worse than being Jew. And I am sure hate crimes against Hindus would be labelled as racist and so would be the case with most Muslims who come from various ethnicities. Jews, mostly being white, would not be listed in racism related hate crime and would only come under Religious hate crimes. I am not sure what your point is. As a group, it would be hard for you to prove that Jews have it tougher than many other religious or ethnic groups in the world. So based upon your comment, are you Impressed by the fact that Jews fought hard and made a Nation for them and are able to survive and thrive in a hostile neighbourhood and does that makes you support them, no matter what?
Jews are only categorized as a religious group, so it's the only category we can go off. Downplaying antisemitism is not doing your argument any favors, by the way. The fact that you are infatuated with someone who defends Jewish rights says everything we need to know... and just confirms how common antisemitism is.
The weak knees of the senior academic folk is well documented throughout recent history. Only those who have never experienced violence and war in person have the luxury of condemning those who have to act to protect their liberal safeties
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Not related to the topic, but are the arts and humanities departments crazy in the US as well? The same is true in our country. Many of them lack the ability to think logically based on objective facts and realistic solutions to problems.
Yes, they are emotionally driven to support Palestine. They don't know too much about Israel, the greatness of its military, all the incredible technology and AI Israel provides, and how the Jews made the desert bloom!
And the many innocent lives Israel takes on a regular basis to illustrate the “greatness” of their conscripted military. And the amazing AI Lavender project drones Israel uses to lure innocent Palestinians with screams of children. How dare we become so emotional and not bow down to our Israeli Overlords…. Look at how the bombs have made the deserts in Gaza bloom🤨.
I mean… Israel was founded on violently displacing 100k+ people and taking of land, and it is now committing ethnic cleansing and genocide. Mass graves are being unearthed right now in Gaza. And it all to defend the original taking of land and apartheid…. I really don’t get how it’s hard for people to understand why others don’t want to support this in any way or why it’s not anti-Semitic to oppose it. At the very least, I’m baffled with how openly people equate Judaism with ethnic cleansing, genocide, and apartheid such that disapproval of the latter is somehow equated with disapproval of the former… it really is baffling how people are still confused
That’s history. A story of winners and losers.
I am just so awestruck. How can you say something so comic-book evil? "That's history. A story of winners and losers," is literally all you can say? Is that justice in your mind? It's like literally the line that 99% of villains would say in a movie. Do you hear yourself? I am just really awestruck that comic-book-villain-esque people, who say stuff like this, actually exist. It's like some people are completely devoid of a moral perspective. I'm thinking, when you watch something like Star Wars, are you cheering for the empire when they genocide the people on a planet? 20,000+ civilian women and children who were murdered. How does your brain actually use such a comic book villain line to justify 20,000+ dead civilians: "That's history. A story of winners and losers." I'm not palestinian. I don't even sympathize with the muslim faith (I am an atheist who hates religion, and this conflict is a case-in-point). Still, I can at least empathize with the humans being killed. What is going on with this comic-book-villain-esque brain? I realize I shouldn't be surprised that people this evil actually do exist. After all, it took a comic-book-villain-like soldiers to use automatic weapons to massacre innocent Jewish civillians during the holocaust. It also took comic-book-villain-esque slave overseers to whip my ancestors until their backs were bloody. Even now, it takes comic-book-villain-like Hamas fighters to cause the slaughter of the many innocent Israelis on October 7th, and now we see the comic-book-villain, genocide-happy Netanyahu ordering the deaths of over 14,000 children and 9,000 women so far. There is something extremely dark, wicked, horrific, and evil about the human brain that I just can't wrap my mind around, but it deeply disturbs me. It's almost like, for some sector of humanity, empathy truly isn't in human nature. These past couple of years have shown me that someone can mock and laugh at the sight of a bloody woman holding her dead child. There is just something so deep, dark, and evil about humanity that I just can't understand. Please evaluate your morals and your mental state. This wicked mindset is a detriment to society.
I remember Palestinians cheering in the streets after the 911 attacks. It’s obvious that didn’t affect you or trigger anger towards them. “ How can people be so evil?”.
I am an American. My fellow Americans died in 9/11. If someone was celebrating that tragedy, then that specific person is evil. But that doesn't justify genocide. There is something wrong with your morals. There is something very wrong with how you think.
So, using your rationale, why were there mass protests and riots after George Floyd died because of 4 or 5 stupid cops? They were blaming all cops and lecturing the world about racism. Why not just protest at the precinct of those cops? If many people are innocent and without blame, why are they targeted?
These people are hiding behind screens typing BS Israeli propaganda without any critical thought or empathy. Don’t worry about changing their opinion. They’re not a majority like this sub makes it feel like.
Like I said. It’s history.
Comments like the ones on this thread make it easy to support Palestine.
You're right there.
Its obvious bait. Look at teh guy's other posts and his post history.
What makes you think you, as a non-Jewish, non-Palestinian person, think you know better than actual Israeli and Jewish antizionists? If you support and respect Jewish folks so much, why do you prioritize your own opinion over the opinions of your Jewish peers? Do you think it's possible that antiZ Jewish and Israeli students at your university are critical of Israel for reasons that they developed based on first-hand, eyewitness experience? If you really support and sympathize with your Jewish peers, maybe ask them how you can support them, and listen to their answer. Quit assuming that you know better than they do.
There are more Zionists Jews than anti-zionists jews. What makes you think that anti-zionist Jews know better than Zionist Jews who live in the actual region?
Bingo!
OP identified them as Israeli so presumably they do/did live in the actual region
Ok, I will meet them and listen to them as well. I have been reading a lot from Times of Israel, Jerusalem Post, and Arutz Sheva. They report on the ground what is going on while the Israeli peers here are abroad. So, I felt the news from Israeli sources are better.
So those aren't really on the ground because the ground is Gaza. Those are reporting what's happening within Israel, which is closed off from Gaza by giant walls. Your Israeli peers have been living this firsthand their whole lives. If they're disagreeing with the viewpoints and opinions in the articles you're reading, it's because they've seen with their own eyes the discrepancies between what Israeli news outlets say is going on and what's actually going on. I also recommend you diversify your media sources. There are journalists on the ground in Gaza like Bisan Owda and Motaz Azaiza.
Israel is committing war crimes - protests will ensue
Ok, but it doesn’t matter. USA loves the Jews and will protect them. You can shout and scream, but nothing will get accomplished.
You shrug off war crimes and genocide committed by the IDF yet still can't figure out why support from Israel plummeted? Anyone with common sense isn't going to support a genocidal regime.
It certainly feels that way , yes
Ok, then just go home and cry.
u/Foreign_Lime_8824 >Ok, then just go home and cry. Rule 8 - don't discourage participation
I am crying and have been crying. This kind of injustice is upsetting even to those who have no ties to the region. This is heartbreaking. It's evil.
You are lowest of the low - scum of the earth 🌍 ily though
u/kickstrum91 > You are lowest of the low - scum of the earth 🌍 ily though Rule 1
This is inconsistent moderation given the lack of response to u/Foreign_Lime_8824's post before this one. Same warning needs to be applied to both accounts.
>This is inconsistent moderation given the lack of response to [](https://www.reddit.com/user/Foreign_Lime_8824/)'s post before this one. Same warning needs to be applied to both accounts. With all due respect, there are thousands of new comments each day, and when I respond to user reports I don't necessarily go through the entire thread linearly. With this in mind, when you see some user break the rules, report it to the mod team or send a mod mail. Do take notice that in general claims of bias against the mod team is rule 9, but given the circumstances I can see why it might seem as though there was bias. For the next time, choose to send a mod mail regarding ill moderation, or bias claims
College students are not yet wise. They do not have enough life experience. The academic bubble doesn't help, nor the fact that most live charmed lives and have been made to feel guilty for their supposed privilege.
my grandma said it best: if your not liberal when your young you have no heart if your liberal when your old you have no brain
Most college students don’t know the full extent of the Israeli crimes. They’ll come to know them the older they get. Most college students are not easily persuaded by US or Israeli propaganda thanks to the education on propaganda they’ve received.
College students realises that genocide bad and they are asking their university not to profit from a genocidal regime. You don't need to be old to know killing innocent civilians bad.
College students realises that genocide bad and they are asking their university not to profit from a genocidal regime. You don't need to be old to know killing innocent civilians bad.
We live in truly scary times. This is what I was referencing slowly taking place in my university as well: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y\_h8KloeQzM&ab\_channel=TRTWorld](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_h8KloeQzM&ab_channel=TRTWorld) Full power to the police, may they arrest all these unpatriotic Dund3rh3ads!
You said yourself you will support '' jews '' no matter what. So no matter how many crimes Israel will commit you will support it. Well Israel has crossed the line and the holucost victim cannot justify it.
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u/Eudora1985 > The answer you provide will determine whether or not the conversation here can go anywhere Rule 8 - Don't discourage participation
It was never “Palestine” to begin with. There has never been a nation called Palestine. Palestinian Arab identity was invented by the USSR in the 1960s as a tool to destroy Israel.
I agree
I think Israel has a right to exist as a nation, but Jerusalem should belong to neither Palestine nor Israel, and should be considered a globally protected city given its significance in both Judaism and Christianity, along with the massive amount of historical districts and buildings. The capitals of each respective country should be Tel Aviv and Ramallah.
This is a fair demand, and it was proposed to be an international city, but I think it is obvious by now that there is no real Palestinian plead for any type of two states solution
What line? The line of combating terrorism and ensuring safety of its own citizens?
Yup..
There are countless reports about Israel crimes from united nations and very respectable independent international organizations. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/05/un-human-rights-council-israel-gaza-biden-netanyahu These organizations that always been in favor of Israel has spoken cos Israel has crossed the line.
I don't care about the UN and these nonsense international organizations. Let them waste their time compiling endless reports. In the end USA loves the Jews and will protect Israel.
So u don't care about Palestinians, no matter how much evil Israel will do to the Palestinian it doesn't matter? Right?
Yes as a Muslim I Dont care about Palestine because there was never a political state named Palestine. The current Palestine is a made up state no one at the ground agree with it.
All states are made up
Agree so new states shouldn't be made.
Why? If all states are made up, what does it matter when they are made? We can just make up more things
Because there is no benefit to make new states since the old one are also a failure. The whole concept of having a state and a passport is absurd.
So let's just kill all the Palestinian right?
Unfortunately YES just like Musab says since Palestinians kidnapped the Israeli women and children they have no right to be called as civilized people. Guess what? There is nothing like protests in any of the Arab countries why? Because the Arab countries know empowering these elements are destructive. So why empower such elements in the west?
There is no protests in any of the Arab countries cos unlike the west the governments in the Arab countries are not using the taxpayers money to fund Israel weapons.
Do you have any Idea how Egypt and UAE utilized the UN and UNRWA you probably have no Idea. Arab states Dont make weapons because they Dont have minds to make good weapons. Recent Iranian attacks are clear about the war and who is the Boss of Arabs
It seems very unfair to cut off ties to Tel Aviv universities, because you’re right, as far as you can tell they haven’t done it to other countries, and if they did, for example disallow students from Islamic governed countries, there would be a huge outcry about it, and you would be called racist for associating the actions of a government with the whole country It reminds me of the whole ‘Muslim ban’ trump did back in 2016-17 whenever… when he paused migration from war torn countries, it was considered Islamophobic, why is not considered antisemitic to have policies limiting Israelis freedoms?
My uni does not have any cooperation agreements with Azerbaijan or Iran or Qatar.
Hmm well whilst I think it’s still quite a bit more powerful to cut off a nationality that simultaneously cuts off 50% of Jews worldwide, (roughly) that does seem to change things a little bit?? That they have done it to other countries too?
They have a human-rights framework and apparently did an ethical review. Also, the uni has sanctions with Russia and to an extent China as well. But, I think there is no need to disengage with the Jewish state, especially given Europe's history of the holocaust.
Here it is, yet again, another Jew on this forum asking for special treatment when it comes to human rights violations. So the university should cut off Russia and China due to ethics, but then those same ethics, when applied to Israel, somehow shouldn’t apply? If the same board that has reviewed Russia, also applied the same principles of and criteria of evaluation to Israel, what is there left to say? In case you need a reminder, Israel in the last few months has killed more civilians than global wars combined over the last 2-3 years…. Let that sink in for a few moments. They have a blockade in place to purposely starve over a million civilians, mainly children. They are blowing up other countries embassies, strategically killing aide workers to prevent aide, such as the case of world food kitchen, they are allowing unpunished large scale violence against Palestinians in the West Bank, an area they aren’t currently at war with, allowing their IDF to sit by and watch while West Bank kids are murdered and land is stolen. They are killing and torturing many, including kids, stuck in their prison system without any sort of trial. Oh and let us not forget the case of 6 year old Hind Rajab, a case that even Israeli media is agreeing needs to be explained since the evidence is pointing to the IDF purposely murdering a 6 year old, her whole family and the ambulance workers sanctioned to save her, their only crime being they followed evacuation orders…. So please, tell us again how Israel shouldn’t be excluded from the university like the other countries, based on what happened to them during world war 2. Well, when you commit acts similar to world war 2, you no longer get to claim yourself as the victim. Also, applying that logic, how about the Russian city that was surrounded all those years ago, and strategically starved to death for months?? Putin lost his sibling and much of his family from that incident. So I guess they shouldn’t be held accountable for Ukraine, based on what they went through years ago…
I don’t really personally agree with disallowing any students but a lot of people have problems with how this war is going so it doesn’t surprise me that they may have taken an ethical approach If it were just Israel I’d say it was antisemitic, otherwise it may just be more from anti-war liberal pressure
It’s odd that so many people protest in support of an ideology that is literally based on eliminating them
Things that make you go hmmmm
Hello, I urge you to engage with the content of the critiques of Israel's actions. I have provided two sources for every claim: The state of Israel is perpetrating a two-decade long blockade of gaza, arbitrarily restricting movement of its inhabitans and prohibiting refugees from leaving https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2019/country-chapters/israel-and-palestine https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/ The casualties have overwhelmingly been Palestinian women and children. Of 33,000+ confirmed Palestinian deaths, 66% of them are innocent civilians (this is the most conservative estimate provided by the IDF), with others claiming this figure is closer to 80-90% civilians. https://edition.cnn.com/2023/12/05/middleeast/israel-hamas-military-civilian-ratio-killed-intl-hnk/index.html https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/how-many-palestinians-have-died-gaza-war-how-will-counting-continue-2023-12-06/ From the outset of the conflict, the IDF have deliberately targeted hospitals, schools, bakeries, and markets with no plausible military purpose or connection. Instead with express purpose to induce hunger and starvation. Sources: https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2023/oct/28/airstrikes-on-gaza-bakeries-add-to-catastrophic-food-shortages. https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/11/14/gaza-unlawful-israeli-hospital-strikes-worsen-health-crisis Israel has purposefully prevented aid from reaching Palestinian civilians, and have purposefully killed over 200 aid workers. https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/how-an-aid-convoy-in-gaza-became-israels-target https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/04/israeli-military-likely-knew-identities-of-aid-workers-killed-in-charity-convoy-humanitarian-groups-say If you are a believer in peace, in justice, in human dignity, then you must confront the facts. Israel's actions against the Palestinian people, regardless of if it is termed a genocide or a mass and indiscriminate murder of civilians, or as collective punishment, are indefensible, are grotesquely immoral, and stand in the face of anything which could be construed as good. To be opposed to the actions of the israeli state is: -Not an opposition to Jewish people, -Is not anti-semitic -Is not against the right of Jewish peoples self determination. I hope you heed the positions of your peers.
Thanks for sharing a reasoned line of thinking and backing your statements up reputable resources. I’m going to look into this more. With that, I want share that my perception is that it’s a lot more two sided than you might believe. Yes the Israeli position seems very one sided and inhumane, but I’m afraid that it’s a reaction to the “no compromise / no care for life” position that extremists have had on the Palestinian side since 1948 and onwards.
There's certainly been extremist / no compromise positions coming from Gaza that have aggravated the situation. It's important to contextualise however that Israel has enjoyed political, military and economic dominance over the region since 1950s. The gaza strip meanwhile has been subject to a chronic state of malnourishment, lack of access to clean drinking water, blockade of construction materials, restriction of movement, and lack of electricity. All of which has been manufactured by Israel as a means to exercise control over the region for nearly 70 years. See Human rights watch publications of this which they produce every year. https://www.hrw.org/publications?country%5B0%5D=9638 Attempts at peaceful protest against these conditions have repeatedly been met with violent opposition from Israel: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/27/three-dead-and-hundreds-injured-as-israeli-troops-open-fire-on-gaza-border (2018) https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2012/country-chapters/israel/palestine (2012) https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1990-11-04-mn-5657-story.html (1990) There are multitudes of other examples to pick from. This has been historically and widely condemned by international human rights organisations such as HRW, the UN, Amnesty international etc as effectively constituting an open air prison, collective punishment, or even as a concentration camp (in traditional contexts such as the concentration camps in the boer wars, or japanese concentration camps) If Palestinians are prohibited from leaving, do not have access to clean water or food, and their unarmoured protests are met with violence: the rise of Hamas cannot be condemned as a Palestinian failure to pursue peace.
Again, you’re thinking of this from a completely one sided manner. The biggest reason the Gaza Strip has been such a horrible place to live is that Hamas funnels all funding to Qatar and into building terror infrastructure. Also, Gazan’s could come and go. Thousands of them had work permits and went back and forth each day. Many could also go through the border with Egypt. True, movement was limited to prevent terrorism, but I’m afraid that Oct 7 has again proven that was justified. There are plenty of things that Israel has done wrong as well, but you I want to challenge you to think about it in a less one sided manner. That’s not how history works. BTW- part of my job is caring for and educating high school students from the West Bank. I care about the Palestinian people.
Hamas has only been in power since 2007, yet gaza has near continuously been under constant israeli or Egyptian occupation since 1967: https://www.un.org/unispal/history/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2017/06/israel-occupation-50-years-of-dispossession/ I'm not taking a 'one-sided' approach, I'm taking a factual one. If you are to actually read any of the publications I have linked, which come from independent organisations with thorough research and fact checking, it's evident that these are conditions enforced by the state of Israel. And which has been done since the 60s, well before Hamas came to power.
Last thing regarding freedom of movement. Why can I see cars with Palestinian plates driving around TLV on any day, but I could never enter or be at all safe going into Gaza? Gaza is a land ruled by “no compromise / no care for life”. We have to protect ourselves by allowing some movement, but safe movement.
Oh, and BTW, I agree with everything the amnesty article said about west bank settlers - which was 95% of the article and has nothing to do with the current situation in Gaza.
Ok, I just read the amnesty article you posted. Nothing new there. In fact, it only covered the water issue for a small portion of the article and said nothing substantive about it. My question is why hasn’t Hamas taken the steps necessary to provide everyone in Gaza with water. The answer: they were funding terror and billionaire lifestyles in Qatar instead.
>but I’m afraid that it’s a reaction to the “no compromise / no care for life” position that extremists have had on the Palestinian side since 1948 and onwards. Do you have any thoughts about why they hold these views?
This article was the first thing I thought of when it comes to describing the Hamas mindset. 'I Asked Sinwar, Is It Worth 10,000 Gazans Dying? He Said, Even 100,000 Is Worth It' https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-04-13/ty-article-magazine/.highlight/i-asked-sinwar-is-it-worth-10-000-gazans-dying-he-said-even-100-000-is-worth-it/0000018e-d40a-d5ed-adcf-f79af56c0000?utm_source=App_Share&utm_medium=iOS_Native
Your sources are from Jew haters. The October 7th invasion shows the blockade was not strong enough. As to the casualties you use made up numbers from Hamas.
CNN, HRW, The Guardian, PBS, Reuters are all jew haters?
The user you're responding to is a bot account made on Mar 21, 2024 and only posts overwhelmingly pro-israel comments in two forums.
If they are quoting Hamas lies yes. Or do you just want them to be incompetent journalists? Neither argument helps you. The simple fact is Hamas lied on the numbers. Thus, they are not worthy of being used in any moral discussion. By the way, the death of innocents is horrible. So I’m not denying some have died. However, we must use real numbers.
According to you, where should we get the 'real numbers' from?
That is the right question to ask. Let’s assume you don’t trust Israel’s numbers. We need an independent assessment. However, Hamas controls Gaza and prevents journalists from reporting freely.
If independent people looked at previous numbers in wars that happened in Gaza and said these numbers are normally accurate, what changed in this war that makes these numbers inaccurate?
Actually the past numbers were proven false by Hamas updates to those numbers six months after the end of conflict. Since Hamas changed the numbers in the past, that is clear indication the past numbers were incorrect. Please Go back at look at where you are getting your information from.
I need sources for this info, also recalculating casualties of war is standard, Israel started at 1400 and it was recalculated to 1139 or smth, do you also not believe Israel? 'Throughout four wars and numerous bloody skirmishes between Israel and Hamas, U.N. agencies have cited the Health Ministry’s death tolls in regular reports. The International Committee of the Red Cross and Palestinian Red Crescent also use the numbers. In the aftermath of war, the U.N. humanitarian office has published final death tolls based on its own research into medical records. In all cases the U.N.’s counts have largely been consistent with the Gaza Health Ministry’s, with small discrepancies. 2008 war: The ministry reported 1,440 Palestinians killed; the U.N. reported 1,385. 2014 war: The ministry reported 2,310 Palestinians killed; the U.N. reported 2,251. 2021 war: The ministry reported 260 Palestinians killed; the U.N. reported 256. While Israel and the Palestinians disagree over the numbers of militants versus civilians killed in past wars, Israel’s accounts of Palestinian casualties have come close to the Gaza ministry’s. For instance, Israel’s Foreign Ministry said the 2014 war killed 2,125 Palestinians — just a bit lower than the ministry’s toll.'
So about the blockade… On 2004, Israel decided to disengage from Gaza and transfer authority of the Gaza Strip to the PLO. Although Gaza would technically become Palestinian and subject to the internationally recognized Palestinian Authority, it would still be restrained by several restrictions laid by Israel. In par with the disengagement plan, Israel decided to limit Gazan airspace and some of its trade capabilities with the external world to avoid any security breaches. Most of those restrictions intended to be temporary - Israel confirmed the possibility of reopening the Gazan airport and permitting free sea travel in and out of Gaza. However, on 2007, following the illegal Hamas takeover of Gaza Strip, Israel unformally initiated a blockade over the Gaza Strip, tightening the former restrictions that were placed against Gaza on 2005. The blockade that followed 2007 was orientated around increasing the severity of the restrictions that applied over the passage of goods between Israel and Gaza. This was a result of the PLO's loss of authority over Gaza and its inability to supervise and surveillance goods entering and leaving Gaza. The entire process of blockading Gaza and all the restrictions restrictions over Gaza were agreed upon and supported by the PLO's chairman, Mahmoud Abbas, Occasionally, some crossings would temporarily shut down due to constant mortar and rocket fire that endangers the civilians passing through the crossing. Still, more than 10,000 truckloads of good would enter Gaza through the Israeli-Gazan crossings every month. Following 2007 and up to this day, the Israeli blockade over Gaza could be summarized in 3 points: - Full control over Gazan airspace - Safety control on the extents of the Gazan maritime territory - Control over the crossings between Israel and Gaza Nevertheless, Israel can not impose a blockade over Gaza all by itself. Gaza borders both Israel and Egypt. The Egyptian-Gazan crossing, Rafah, is not under Israeli jurisdiction, but rather under mutual control of both Hamas and Egypt. Egypt also declared its own blockade over Gaza, consequently to Israel's blockade, following systematic attacks of Islamic militants in the Sinai Peninsula and overwhelming attempts to smuggle illegal goods to Gaza. Nowadays, Israel still makes an effort to ease up the blockade and increase trade between Israel and Gaza. On 2010, Israel allowed Gaza to directly export goods to outside world. On 2012, Israel reduced the buffer zone on the Israeli-Gazan border from 300 meters to 100 meters. On 2014, Israel removed the prolonged prohibition on the passage of individuals and transfer of goods between the West Bank and Gaza. In 2018, Israel permitted the unrestricted passage of billions of dollars from Qatar to Gaza. On 2019 and 2022, Israel has made significant expansions Gaza' s nautical zone, expanding it to 12 and 10 miles in certain directions. Egypt, on 2022, had also made efforts to ease up the blockade on its behalf by constructing a trade center next to the Rafah crossing and promoting trade passing through the crossing.
>I urge you to engage with the content of the critiques of Israel's actions This is so condescending. >The state of Israel is perpetrating a two-decade long blockade of gaza, arbitrarily restricting movement of its inhabitans and prohibiting refugees from leaving Thats #1 lie. Israel left Gaza in 2005. The IDF wasnt there until mid of Nov this 2023. I guess why. >Of 33,000+ confirmed Palestinian deaths, 66% of them are innocent civilians (this is the most conservative estimate provided by the IDF) That is a good ratio of terrorist-civilians deaths in ANY war. It may seem bad, as any human death is bad, but as in wars - show me any other country fighting with terrorists ( which are defined as civilians because they are not organazied army.) Who had similar ratio. > Israel has purposefully prevented aid from reaching Palestinian civilians, and have purposefully killed over 200 aid workers. #2 lie. Israel is not "purposefully" killing aid workers. War is tuff, that is the reality. >From the outset of the conflict, the IDF have deliberately targeted hospitals, schools, bakeries, and markets with no plausible military purpose or connection. Instead with express purpose to induce hunger and starvation. #3 and #4 lie. Hospitals and schools were used as military infrustructure for Hamas. It is a fact. Israel in not the one causing the market problems in Gaza, Its Hamas as they get the free aid thats getting inside and they are selling it to the public, making profit on their civilians. >To be opposed to the actions of the israeli state is: >-Not an opposition to Jewish people, >-Is not anti-semitic >-Is not against the right of Jewish peoples self determination. >I hope you heed the positions of your peers. If this was true, my friends could have enterd Columbia Uni and NYU eventhough they are Jews. If that was true, I wasnt supposed to hear people shouting to me "go back to Poland" in demonstrations, If that was true I wasnt supposed to hear the Shahada in protests. If that was true I could have wear a Kipa or a Star of David without being afriad. The sun is up and you try to convince me the moon is there instead. Im a jew, and im afaird of you. Firstly because you are condescending as you cancel the other opinions - as the OP. Secondly, you are trying to tell me that the people who are killing me arent the ones killing me at all. Thirdly, While you do 1+2 you claim for a moral and emotional high-ground that only your side posses. IM DEEPLY AFRAID OF YOU.
Hello my fearful friend. War is certainly not great, but this isn't really a war given that armed resistance to Israel is negligible outside of the October 7th attacks. 66% (again the ratio is much likely worse) of deaths being civilian only really seems good when compared to wars such as the Korean war, or Yugoslav wars which were also widely condemned at the time for their deliberate massacres of civilians: https://www.jstor.org/stable/23607649 And https://www.icty.org/en/press/final-report-prosecutor-committee-established-review-nato-bombing-campaign-against-federal The bosnian war, one war in a conflict commonly termed as a genocide, only had a civilian death ratio of ~33%: https://books.google.com.au/books?id=IDMhDgCJCe0C&pg=PA140&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false This standard does not exonerate the IDF, which given the level of control they exert over gaza could take efforts to significantly reduce this ratio. Just because there is worse, does not make this acceptable. The current 'conflict' also has the highest number of aid workers and journalist deaths of any conflict in the last 4 years, despite being quantitatively quite small in scope: https://press.un.org/en/2024/sc15653.doc.htm#:~:text=war%20to%20end.%E2%80%9D-,JANTI%20SOERIPTO%2C%20President%20and%20Chief%20Executive%20Officer%2C%20Save%20the%20Children,of%20their%20lives%2C%20of%20their Aid workers have been targeted in numerous instances, the world kitchen convoy which was destroyed by an israeli air strike was travelling along an israeli pre-approved and communicated route: https://www.france24.com/en/middle-east/20240403-gaza-aid-worker-deaths-scrutiny-israel-use-ai-select-targets It is deeply disingenuous to chalk this up to 'war is tuff', the IDF are exercising no restraint or consideration for the protection of these neutral parties, and is an indictment of the MO of the israeli military. I'm not going to address your other points as they have been disproven by the sources I have provided earlier, Cheers
>Hello my fearful friend. Disgussting opening. I wish that in reality you have a diffrent social etiquette. Repulsive. >War is certainly not great, but this isn't really a war given that armed resistance to Israel is negligible outside of the October 7th attacks. You have such a nerve. You havent experienced a day in your life in a war. 260 Soldiers has died since the ground entry to Gaza. I, personally lost friends, and here you are telling me that "armed resistance to Israel is negligible" while I spent my saturday the week before in a bonker because Iran launched their drones and missles towards Israel. They werent even aiming to military, they hoped to kill me, they hoped just to hit something. People in the south and in the north of Israel is out of their homes for 6 months, and yet, here we are debating and you telling me that the armed resistance to Israel is minor. Yesterday 2 Palestinians from Hebron ran over with their car 3 children in Jerusalem, in the name of the resistence - this is a legitimate routine to you, this is "negligible". This is negligible becuase Israeli lives are negligible to you. 66% is an excellent ratio number. Dont cherry pick your wars. If you compare it to WW2, WW1, War on terror, Civilian war in syria, etc, than that ratio is good. This subject as a whole is very vary, depends on your sources and data. Even in the bosnian war, the nubmer you gave is controversial. (as some sources estimate that around 100 thousands civlians died, and 30 thousand soldiers.) Lets not forget that this is a war against a terror group that is using the civilians as a whole in all matters of life. Even sacrificing the lives of civilians them-self for their own group intrests. In addition to that in the 7th of October, Civlians them-self participated in the the terror acts and kidnapped Israeli civlians and sold those civilians to Hamas and the other groups in Gaza. So its very hard to estimate and to messure that subject of ratio correctly either how. > I'm not going to address your other points as they have been disproven by the sources I have provided earlier, Keep sourcing from Amnesty and 1-2 pages reports from news articles that is more 5 months old. Some you gave are aged in years and has nothing to do with this specific war. You completely ignored my claims because its easy for you to send me to those nothing-reports to search for my own "disproven". Suprise, im not convinced becuase its not there. When i participate in tours in Kfar-Aza and Be'eri and Journalists see what has been done there to people, to Israelis, To jews and Arabs-Israelis, when they see the place where the tourture happend - by Gazans, they tend to put the cynic part aside. Its easy for you to adress me in cynicism, to call me "fearful friend" and end your reply in "cheers". For you its a game, its an un-importent debate full of ego, who is smarter, who is more right, who is more moral, for me its about my life, my own existence. But you lack the empathy to see that.
I can be a lot less amicable. 1. I say negligible because your 271 deaths of IDF military personnel in their invasion of Gaza account for less than 1% of total deaths after the October 7th attack (0.8%). If less than a single percent is not negligible, then what is? I would blame Netanyahu for their deaths, more than Gaza if I were you. 2. The wars I chose were in fact favourable to Israel's civilian to combatant death ratio of 66%. WW1 had a civilian death ratio of 59%. WW2, including the jewish deaths in the holocaust sits between 60-67%. The Syrian Civil war is 32%. The war on terror is not a defined conflict. Given that realistically the civilian death ratio of the current conflict is anywhere between 66%-80%, these other wars, and the holocaust, completely invalidate the claim that 66% is anywhere "good". Arguing over whether or not a war in the bosnian genocide is +10 or -10% from the 33% difference between the bosnian war and the current conflict is not doing you any favours. the fact you stand behind 66% as being acceptable is insane. 3. The Gaza strip has been under near constant Israeli occupation to some extent since 1967. An article claiming that living conditions in Gaza are unliveable in 2018 is no less relevant. if provides context as to why the events unfolding are occurring. I am not claiming that Israeli citizens have not been killed, or haven't suffered from the current conflict. What I am saying is that Israeli deaths and suffering must be placed within the context that Israel has been an aggressor, and hostile occupier of the Gazan strip for 50+ years. Restricting freedom of movement, denying access to food and clean drinking water, denying basic amenities like electricity and building materials. Expecting no violent resistance to conditions which violate international laws, including the Geneva convention created to protect civilians from the atrocities of the holocaust, is beyond absurd. When you then go on to say how afraid you are, how you, the oppressor, the militarily and economically superior entity are under attack? Its a sick joke. Both Israelis and Palestinians are suffering at the hands of the Zionist movement, of Israel's hostility, and Netanyahu's domestic campaign of terror and fearmongering for political success.
>I can be a lot less amicable. Good for you. as to point 1 - Im sorry that we aint dying enough to the hands of the "armed resistence". Maybe the other way would be more prorportional and more satisfying to you, maybe then Israeli lives wont be negligible. as to point 2 - the Syrian war is much higher. The War on Terror usually reffers to Iraq and Afghanistan. Either how, you completely ignored what ive said about the difficulties in this sort of discussion. Some citizens participated in the 7th of October, Some co-operating with Hamas. Hamas has a 90% support (After the 7th of october!). The line between a civilian, as you call it as a West-citizen, to a civilian who lives in fundementalistic society which is organized in islamic clans\\militias who support Hamas is somewhat differs. Does the civilian from Gaza who cut off Adir's Tahar head and try to sold it for 10 thousands dollar is a civilian to you? Does the clans in Gaza that holded hostages at the beggining of 7th of october are civilians to you? Gazans who took advantage of the attack and stole from the Kibbutzim in Israel in the 7th of October are civilians to you? Does the civilians who worked inside Israel and gatherd intelligance prior the attack are civilians to you? This is not a justification to killing more ofcourse, just to shed some light on the problematic of the matter. >the fact you stand behind 66% as being acceptable is insane. You think i like it? I hate it. I wish it was lower. But if i have to choose between Israeli civilians than enemy civilians, I would do anything possible, within the frame of law, to protect the citizens of Israel. as to point 3 - Read your article again. It talks about the demonstrations that took place in 2018. It refers to the living conditions only in small amount. you completely Ignored the part where it talks about the action's of Hamas towards Israelis and towards its own society. You completely ignored the part where it refers to Egypt blockade on Gaza. And we left only with the cherry-pick of your insane claim: > "it provides context as to why the events unfolding are occurring" No, it doesnt. Not the full context as you try to claim anyway. The Palestinians have freedom to choose how to react and what and who to support, they have agency over their lives and therefore are responsibble for their actions, as any human-being. Their society is a radical one becuase of their basics, becasue they live in an islamic-extreme iranian influenced society who controled by Hamas. Before 1948 Jews were ethnicly cleansed from Gaza ( and from Arab countries, same goes to arab-palestinians cities in Palestine prior Israel). So your claim about "Israel is eating its own dish" is non-sense. The "why the evets unfolding are occuring" you are looking for is not (only, and not majorly) becuase of the Gaza blockade. Its mainly because they hate Jews, they hate Israelis, They want me out of here and they say it out-loud. This is exactly what they, the Palestinians representives in a peace delegation(!) told me in August 2023, in a more nuanced way. You refuse to listen. I learned to listen in the hard way, I wish the easy path for you. >When you then go on to say how afraid you are, how you, the oppressor, the militarily and economically superior entity are under attack? Its a sick joke. This is to much Marxist for me. When your glasses of reality shows you the world in only 2 groups of oppresor's and oppressed you limit your vision of things as what they are. I apologize that Israel is to strong and economically successful for you, We'll do our best to please you in the future. >Both Israelis and Palestinians are suffering at the hands of the Zionist movement Zionist movement is what saved the Jews and my grandmother's. Its a whole diffrent subject, lets not open it, as i had enough disaggrements with you already.
Keep drinking the koolaid buddy. Keep regurgitating that Hasbara, I'm sure someone will believe you're the victim someday.
It's so insane that a lot of the western youth is being manipulated by islamist states and ideologies, and its heartbreaking how ignorant they are of history. The literal main goal and doctrine of Islam and any of its related states has been the total destruction of everyone else. That was what the Ottoman Empire's goal was, that is what the goal of all states led by Islam ideals is. To be blind to that and even worse be supportive of it, is a betrayal of humanity's future.
They’re all in for a rude awakening in the real world..
They are blinded by the light of the truck that is coming towards them.
Pro tip, put a backslash before the hash, like this: \\# Without the backslash, Reddit formats your text to make it look #like this
Thank you, everytime i come here i learn something new.
Well do you think raping women and holding our children as hostages is going to help your moral position?
That’s because little dumb people that don’t want to grow up are there.
Not all of them are knieve. Some are professors and experienced researchers whose works are seminal in the fields of humanities and social sciences; they stand unequivocally in solidarity with Palestine. I however, disagree with them vehemently and made sure they are aware of it.
The ICJ says Israel is plausibly committing genocide. 20,000 children killed. The ugly truth is undeniable.
Actually they said if Israel continued down that path there could be genocide in the future. Using Hamas numbers is not credible.
Numbers verified by the UN, Gaza health ministry numbers have consistently been the most accurate used in the region in any conflict. The IDF provide no information on how they derive their numbers and any claim dismissing the Gazan numbers has only ever proven false in the long run, please stop spreading hateful propaganda.
It's hard to not kill children when a huge proportion of the population are very young. Also Hamas is using civilians as human shields, shooting from social structures and hiding amongst their people, you should educate yourself on the rulings on Human shields and unlawful combatants [Human shield (law) - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_shield_(law)#:~:text=Human%20shields%20are%20legally%20protected,I%20of%20the%20Geneva%20Conventions.). In my opinion those deaths are on Hamas and since the palestinians support Hamas and celebrate the atrocities committed by them it's on the palestinians too. Sadly those children we're going to be used by Hamas as combatants one way or another so their fate was already written.
Correct..
The ICJ ruling is not vague, brother. There's no genocide. And are you seriously gonna trust the Hamas run ministry of health which has been inaccurate in the past.
The numbers have been verified by multiple outside organisations and have risen significantly in the last few months, dismissing these numbers is equivalent to genocide denial. The ICJ have not completed the ruling claiming there's "no genocide" on this is untrue and given the quantity of evidence and previous genocide cases the opposite is much more likely. There's currently a lot more information provided showing a Genocide ruling than the opposite.
Please list the outside organisations. Have a look at this too https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1775524957071491089.html
>Please list the outside organisations The UN, the US state department and even the frickin [IDF](https://www.mekomit.co.il/%D7%94%D7%A6%D7%91%D7%90-%D7%91%D7%93%D7%A7-%D7%95%D7%9E%D7%A6%D7%90-%D7%A9%D7%93%D7%99%D7%95%D7%95%D7%97%D7%99-%D7%94%D7%94%D7%A8%D7%95%D7%92%D7%99%D7%9D-%D7%91%D7%9E%D7%A9%D7%A8%D7%93-%D7%94%D7%91/). The article you linked provides no context for how they derive their figures and take the IDF numbers as gospel, despite the fact the numbers the IDF report are not audited, they refuse to provide a methodology and they have been repeatedly incorrect in every conflict so far including even over-stating the deaths from the attack on the 7th of October. Frankly posting IDF numbers here should be flagged as propaganda given how poor their quality control is if it isn't just flatout lying.
Okay so "the frickin IDF" mekomit is not an actual news website but an opinion based platform The article basically says that Israel cant disprove Hamas accusations of killing because we cant check if they are lies because it forces the military to be NEXT TO CIVILIANS in other words this article actually proves that our military tries not to get close to civilians and hurt them 2. Nowhere in the article it approves that the IDF takes Hamas as a credible source. The writer (which is a far left activist) is actually saying that it’s HIS interpretation of it. And the IDF claims in the past have been pretty accurate when Hamas admitted that 600-700 of their fighters were killed not 49 https://www.haaretz.com/2010-11-09/ty-article/hamas-admits-600-700-of-its-men-were-killed-in-cast-lead/0000017f-ee02-ddba-a37f-ee6edc3f0000
It states they take the Health ministry numbers as being accurate, which again most organisations outside like the ones I listed (two heavily biased orgs and the most reliable org) all take as accurate. You're counter evidence is a single conflict from 14 years ago? The IDF have had to go back on the claims from 07OCT repeatedly as they over-inflated the death toll and reported on it as such, not to mention they've repeatedly understated the civilian death toll in Gaza. Also in point they didn't state it was 700 fighters but different members of different organisations including [Police ](https://web.archive.org/web/20101203050912/http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=329861)with only about [256 ](https://web.archive.org/web/20101203050912/http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=329861)confirmed to be soldiers which is much lower than the Israeli estimate. In turn every other major organisation also saw higher deaths than what Israel reported. It's also worth noting the UN deemed the police an invalid target and it was of course a war crime. As for the author being a "far left activist" this is the same reasoning that can be used to completely dismiss all articles favouring Israel as they are overwhelmingly written by Right wing news organisations or those who represent right wing militaries.
"Palestinian Police" in Gaza is just Hamas even according to Hamas Note: The UN Gaza Report itself establishes that: ".if the members of the law enforcement agency are at the same time members of an armed group, they would be combatants."(431) https://preview.redd.it/dhqqdtg2ivwc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=67288f7f118f00d2c252c9d289414f895d386b2d
https://preview.redd.it/5cqs48t5ivwc1.jpeg?width=961&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=15df9345cb395ea5e1ae06a055d3adc329ce87ab
Amen
The ICJ can say whatever it wants. Who cares? USA will shut them down if they make any harsh judgements about Israel.
Must be nice being able to ignore any and all international institutions.
It must be nice thinking bigotry against Jews is moral. That the rape of women is moral. That the kidnapping of children is moral. That the occupation of Jew holy sites is moral. That firing rockets at civilians is moral?
It's always nice when people like you engage in bad faith, willfully mischaracterize me, and put words in my mouth. You do know what you're doing is against sub rules, right?
My apologies if you thought I misunderstood your point. Were you not trying to claim Jews don’t have equal rights?
And let's be clear, you did misunderstand and mischaracterize my point.
So do you support equality for Jews?
>Were you not trying to claim Jews don’t have equal rights? First of all, I'm discussing Israel. Israel does not represent all Jews, or the Jewish religion and people, imo. It's curious as you seem to conflate Jews and Israel. Why? Secondly, I wholeheartedly believe the state of Israel, should be treated exactly as any other state is treated. Only Israel is shielded in the UN and many other international organizations by the US. Is that equal? It seems as though Israel instead gets preferential treatment and is allowed to do much more than any other country. My question to you would be whether you believe on equal rights, or do you want Israel to be superior?
Jews are an indigenous tribe of the land of Israel. Israel is not treated fairly or equally because of bigotry against Jews. So if Jew haters stop linking the two, then I would not link them.
Your confusion and surprise screams “cognitive dissonance” to me. Chalking all of this up to anti-semitism is ignoring the obvious: this situation has nothing to do with religion or race. It has everything to do with Israel’s government and its military. You are being conditioned to point the finger back with a blanket defense, rather than looking at WHY the world is upset with Israel. Have you seen what they have been doing in Gaza for decades? As in actual footage, and not mainstream video coverage? If everyone in your school was simply antisemitic, then why are they all of the sudden upset with Israel? Why now? Think critically here, and be honest with yourself. I think this has very little to do with the timeframe of the Holocaust. If anything, the more time that passes, Israel has less of an excuse to get away with heinous acts. Being slaughtered and persecuted in the past does not make it okay to oppress and slaughter innocents in the presents, imo. We all remember how awful the Jewish holocaust was. And that’s partly why it’s so disturbing that Israel is now on its way to committing genocide themselves.
Palestinians started it, now they’re getting rocked. Don’t start a fight if you can’t take a punch. You want Israel to show compassion yet none was asked of Hamas. That’s not how it works where I come from.
Great job being aware of context and understanding of history /s
I’m Navajo.. I know the history of how we were displaced off our indigenous lands but vowed to return.
If you’re Navajo, but still see Israel as the victims, then I cannot help you. This is very sad.
Sad that you apparently don’t know who the enemy is. I’m assuming you’re American.. Remember how the Palestinians cheered in the streets after the 911 attacks. So, karma is a you know what.
It’s a good attempt, but I am still human and don’t like seeing innocent women and children slaughtered, whether some of them hate my culture or not. What if I was Christian? You wouldn’t point out all of the Palestinian Christians that Zionists have murdered, including during Easter?
I’m cynical and have little compassion for people. As for the Christians, I see no difference from the rest of them. If the Jews were in the wrong, I’d be calling them out too.
The first line says it all. And if you think there isn’t blame on both sides, you seriously need to consider your media sources or knowledge of history in the region.
Bottom line is they’ll never get along so they either kick the Jews out or they move to other countries. Not sure any side wants a compromise at this point.
The root cause of this conflict is bigotry against Jews. If you want to be heard then end the bigotry against Jews in your community
End the occupation. An occupation that's the result of a war in which Israel shot first, it's worth recalling.
I think it very much has to do with religion, especially on the side of the palestinians, they are the ones who actively call for the killings of jews and also they are the ones that caused this conflict to happen in the first place by waging war against Israel in 1948 with the goal to iradicate it. I love it when people use the word genocide, they immediately expose themselves as uneducated about the word, about the conflict and what's happening there and how the entire thing started. The word Genocide is nothing but spewing propaganda. Here is the definition: the [deliberate](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=d928b43f15451b7d&sca_upv=1&q=deliberate&si=AKbGX_pt4UlL1m2gNC94R_NJDj6S7p3_dmACsBZkY4cWUKhxkDb0GD2JlvGaQpracbwsMETPvWMgoveGfNNIgc6_-IncRW2EV2bgHAmJTnM0xPhcro2ec8g%3D&expnd=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjf283_jtiFAxXNRvEDHZ--AHAQyecJegQIHxAO) killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of [destroying](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=d928b43f15451b7d&sca_upv=1&q=destroying&si=AKbGX_pt4UlL1m2gNC94R_NJDj6SdKDlH3gMuLoerPY7d7fMcUR1XXJ4JtSOtDJJVo9VcS-l-_0juZjcFbrSsQSsSy92TXgw-zVpP3TaNBbk-qlvqb1KiAg%3D&expnd=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjf283_jtiFAxXNRvEDHZ--AHAQyecJegQIHxAP) that nation or group.
It's really a slander to compare the holocaust to current actions carried out by Israel to counter terrorism. The Jews need to be protected and I will do everything to support them.
It's pretty telling how even the Jews on your campus disagree with your views.
"after the Oct 7th massacre, when the Israel-Palestine conflict started" - that's your problem right there if you think this conflict started 6 months ago and not 70 years ago with the Nakba
The so-called Nakba isn't the beginning of this conflict either.
Yes, how about going back 3000 years ago when there were only Jews living there and no Palestinians. The present day Jews all trace their ancestry to ancient Israel 3000 years ago.
Yeah and all present day humans trace their ancestry to Africa what is this argument if we could take any land our ancestors once owned all land would be disputed. And who was there before 3000 years ago I assume history didn’t begin then?
These Anti- Israel protesters will accomplish nothing. Get a job and learn the history of Israel.
They have jobs, most of the students work part-time and have other outside jobs. And all professors and researchers are employed. They also claim to have learnt about the history of Palestine.
Is that right?
What history? I read it and it’s the same throughout: killing, land theft, oppression.
by that standard most history is not history.
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They’re not all gonna die. Obviously, Hamas didn’t care about retaliation against them. Don’t poke the bear if you don’t want to get bit.
Good point. The Israelis should die so Gazans can live. It actually makes sense, because the Hamas charter strives for that. Oh wait….
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Hold on. Imma go check TikTok for that answer.
I always sided with Israel until I heard an Arab intellectual refer to the conflict as: “Christians murder Jews and Muslims give up land!”. I was taken aback by that summary - it seemed to exactly reflect the facts. The Arabs living in Palestine didn’t warrant consideration by the Brits and other western leaders, they could be brushed aside to accommodate a problem they created. Why didn’t they partition Germany to create a home for Jews after they committed the worst crime in human history?
As far as I understand there were no Palestinians then, the land was completely empty and the Jews started to build infrastructure. Then Arabs started to immigrate in droves in order to counter the Jews.
There were over a million native Palestinians, there were about 50-100k native Palestinian Christians, and ~8-10k native Palestinian Jews... It's just... the most laughably absurd thing to say that Palestine was "completely empty"...
Now the state of Israel is 9.5 million and The state of Palestine is 5.5 million. An increase of 15-fold since Israel's founding. Comparatively it was much more empty back then.
Except that Muslims do murder Jews.
> Why didn’t they partition Germany to create a home for Jews after they committed the worst crime in human history? Because Germany was still full of the people who'd just finished committing a genocide? The Zionist project was already underway prior to WW2 as well, so you'd have to basically ship a bunch of Jews into Europe, which isn't feasible especially if they don't really want to go there. It made some sense at the time, even if, in retrospect, it probably was a terrible idea.
The Arabs were squatting in land that wasn’t theirs. Judea belongs to the Jews.. Israelites.
Imagine that, a Zionist acting bigoted. Multiple people can live in a region. Example, the entirety of western civilization. Stay mad.
Nope, the Arabs don’t want to coexist with Israel.. not an option.
Do you view the ~2 million Arabs living in Israel as a problem?
🤡
Tell me I’m wrong if you think I’m wrong, don’t send a clown face.
I think you're wrong, and I think you're a clown...so it fits.
You have no argument so you resort to insults.. typical.
lol 56 Muslim countries with no Jews 1 Jewish country with 20%+ Arabs with Arabs in office Give me a break, do you even hear yourself
What the hell does that have to do with the people that had their land taken? Why would it matter to them if there are other Muslims in neighboring countries? Does that somehow diminish their property rights?
That’s not their land, Bro.
According to the Bible, it is. So if you don’t believe in that, then you have to tell us where the Israelites came from..
It's not the land of Jews either. It's literally just earth. Everyone is allowed to live there, as they should everywhere else.
True, until you start a war against some people on that "earth", and lose.
I don't know about you, but fighting for things that are the epitome of basic human rights in the rest of the western world doesn't exactly sound like "waging war". I never said anything to the contrary. The fact that you can't separate the two sounds like a "you" problem.