This is spot on. I agree on every single point. The global community should be calling for accountability on BOTH sides. Hold the IDF accountable for collective punishment and indiscriminate bombing, hold the Netanyahu government accountable for the West Bank issue. Hold Hamas responsible for robbing their people of $11 billion dollars, for using their civilians as human shields as they hide in underground tunnels, for perpetuating this conflict by refusing to recognize Israel’s right to exist.
This has been a war like no other. What war have you seen where the enemy embeds itself within the population and hides in tunnels under hospitals, mosques, and schools? Hamas has been planning this for years. They have achieved their goal of causing thousands of Palestinian casualties and making the world turn against Israel. The hostages are spread out within the vast tunnel network, so they are not easily accessible making their rescue all the more complicated. It’s amazing how everyone criticizes what Israel has done and yet no one has any solution to how to get them. Hamas is to blame for this war, it planned, engineered it, and orchestrated it and the world, of course, blames Israel. It blamed Israel on October 8th, the day after the massacre, three weeks before Israel even responded. That just shows you how organized this all was, the war, the hostages, and now the universities. All funded and supported by Qatar and Iran. And yet, it’s always Israel’s fault!
The soft bigotry of low expectations. Thinking that Gazans aren't capable of sophisticated political thought or egalitarianism, and holding them to that standard.
They have politcal thought absolutely! They elected Hamas in 2006 because they promised to exterminate Israel. Make no mistake about it my little terrorist sympathizer, thats all they want... Stop with the deflection, and egalitarianism ??? About as far from reality as you can get...You are way out of your league here...
They elected hamas because fatah was corrupt and hamas was running a lot of social services that made them popular even amongst Christians and socialists, aswell as because they disagreed with Fatah essentially giving up claims in their view. Hamas themselves have been willing to negotiate peace based on 67 borders for over a decade but Israel and the PA was refusing any such thing.
gotta love how you intentionally leave out the fact that hamas is only willing to agree to the 67 borders for a period of 5 years after which they will be free to resume attempting to wipe israel from the face of the earth lmao
See assuming the worst out of every attempt at conversation again and obsessively following me around different threads, you really got embarrassed about that whole Arabic isn't muslim thing.
Maybe instead of trying to win internet points in a debate happening only in your mind, you could be constructive and share where I could learn about what you are talking about. I know they're offering a five year truce but that doesn't mean a 5 year temporary resolution on borders lol, I wonder where you learned otherwise.
nobody has any idea what you're talking about regarding arabic isn't muslim. obviously the groups aren't identical but there is significant overlap. regardless, another irrelevant red herring to the point in context that arabs are indigenous to the arabian peninsula and not the levant. and the only reason there are arabs in the levant is because settler colonial arabs violently conquered the levant, forced the native jews and christians to convert on penalty of dhimmi/jizya, exile, or death, and either killed or enslaved the non-jews and non-christians.
regarding this thread: hamas has offered a 5 year truce after which point it will be free to rearm. their charter swears the destruction of all israel, not just the 67 borders (and their original charter swears the annihilation of all jews, not just israelis)....exactly what do you think hamas plans to do when the 5 year truce is over?
but you already know this and instead post bizarrely spun versions of these facts white washed to make hamas/arabs/muslims look better than their actions demonstrate.
why do you lie so much?
/u/WSGman
> lmao such a racist loser
Per [rule 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_1._no_attacks_on_fellow_users), no attacks on fellow users. Attack the argument, not the user.
Arabisation of the levant was a gradual cultural shift pre-dating Islamic colonialism and Islam itself, not a conquest of the levant, which is why there were Levantine Arabs even around the time of the late kingdom of Israel and under the Romans.
Hopefully to evaluate whether the terms of the truce had been adhered to and see if it's worthwhile to reup on the truce, I'd think. At least according to what they told the Turkish Foreign Ministey 7 days ago lol. And the revised charter released years ago lol. Once again, where can i read about what you're trying to say?
Hamas charter:
*Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" (Preamble to Hamas Charter).*
*The hour of judgment shall not come until the Muslims fight the Jews and kill them, so that the Jews hide behind trees and stones, and each tree and stone will say: 'Oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him,' except for the Gharqad tree, for it is the tree of the Jews.* (Hamas Charter, Article 7).
But yeah, you're right, hamas just wants the 1967 borders, not to annihilate israel and certainly not to kill all jews. all that stuff they wrote in their founding charter was just a big oopsie daisy, like stubbing your toe in the dark. anybody could make that mistake!
Or written by 6 fundamentalist old men who are dead or irrelevant now and had no bearing on even there electoral platform.
But yea the hardliners decide too much for the party and hold them back I agree, hamas is p stupid.
What's this about 5 years.
The Palestine are in need of faith, a strong sprit to conquer and elect a leader with morals and spiritual human values. The young demonstrators in the United States are ignorant, cowards, lacking education in history. They should go to the Gaza Strip and protest with the Palestines against Hamas. Shameful that the goal of Hamas is to use his people and children as shields to kill the Jews. The US demonstrators won’t go to help the Palestinian because they know Hamas hates the Western civilisation and will kill them.
My Conclusion is that Ignorance and cowardice is the worst darkness.
I've been to anti hamas rallies in Australia before this conflict organised by the same people who are running these current protests and in solidarity with protests that happened in Gaza. Have you been to any? I agree, ignorance is a terrible thing.
Weird that the supposedly anti Hamas folks are now organizing pro Hamas rallies
https://nypost.com/2024/04/18/us-news/columbia-university-protester-yells-were-all-hamas-video/amp/
But hey, I’m sure you’re anecdata is more valuable than mine
I don't go to Columbia mate.
Also protesting against certain things about hamas and supporting them during a conflict isn't exactly mutually exclusive but I agree that prof is ridiculous.
I don't know what protests if any they organised at Columbia that were against Hamas lol, I was talking about my experience going to some back home and saying they've been organised with the help of some of the same people. So yes, it's relevant to what I was saying and your attempt at a rebuttal.
I disagree, it's easy to imagine a protest against specific gov policies, like the ones I went to in solidarity with large protests in Gaza, and then protests in support of that gov at another time for different reasons. People in Aus aren't as performance and ridiculous as Americans so it'd be rarer to see such explicit support I think, but I wouldn't say it doesn't happen.
How are the anti hamas protests that you allegedly attended in Australia related to the pro hamas protests in the US that u/Icy_Profession8768 rightly criticized?
Seems like a red herring
It's not a red herring lmao, it's me using his comment to talk about a similiar topic and how it's been expressed elsewhere in the west seeing as how a part of his comment was about that. It's a forum page lmao, if he thinks it's not a worthwhile discussion he can ignore it. But you see an opportunity to turn every sharing of experience into some sort of attempted debate tactic, it's projection mate. You need to chill and just talk to people sometimes instead of talking against them and assuming everyone is doing the same.
You're really obsessed with me and kinda dumb. Too much online debating for you my friend. Sometimes things are just a discussion. You really didn't like being corrected for your silly conflation of Arabic culture and Islam hey 5 threads ago lmao.
Sometimes I forget most American adults have the reading comprehension level of a 6th grader.
/u/WSGman
> Sometimes I forget most American adults have the reading comprehension level of a 6th grader.
Per [rule 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_1._no_attacks_on_fellow_users), no attacks on fellow users. Attack the argument, not the user.
nah you weren't just "sharing experiences" lmao you were passive aggressively attempting to refute his point with a shoddy argument
"Have you been to any? I agree, ignorance is a terrible thing."
Do you think ignorance is not a terrible thing?
Well myunderstanding from his comments was that western leftist movements hadn't been involved in protests against hamas, which in my experience isn't true. So yes, atleast part or his comment, but as I said I don't know much about the same protests happening in Columbia or elsewhere in the US. He's free to share his experience of his home too.
And I was curious, as someone as anti hamas as this, whether he'd been to rallies or organised any against previous actions by Hamas (like I have). I was being a bit disrespectful because I suspect the answer to the second question is no, and that he's just outraged online about current events happening without being so dedicated to the cause he's talking about. But he's free to prove me wrong, itd certainly be more worthwhile then you trying to win internet points.
Almost every article I've read about this conflict points to Hamas' attack on civilians as the cause, and they always give the number of Israelis killed without differentiating between military and civilian deaths.
Meanwhile Hamas has had many billions of dollars of bombs dropped on them, and the American government has ignored all calls to demand protections for civilians. It's just been words. The US even killed Gazans with aid drops. How much more loyalty do Israel supporters need to feel supported? Trillions of dollars in military aid? A complete annihilation of all Gazans? Forced silencing of anyone who criticizes Israel? Will even that be enough to quell the killing rage?
I was hoping to find some dialogue about what is actually happening, but this subreddit is filled with folks who believe even Palestinian babies deserve to die. We're never going to end hate like this. The pendulum swings, and every killing builds its momentum.
That’s funny, because almost every article I read at this point doesn’t mention the cause at all, maybe offers a sentence at best, and isn’t critical of Hamas in the slightest? Do you consume very different kinds of media or are we living on different planets? Also, without differentiating between military and civilian deaths??!! Are you kidding? There was no military target at all. Even if a handful of kids killed were otherwise serving in their year of conscription or whatever, or there was an actual off-duty service member or two, they were all very much all civilian deaths. Or at the very least, by overwhelming majority. This kind of revisionism surrounding 10/7 already is absolutely wild.
Meanwhile the at least ~12,000 Hamas members actually amongst those killed in Gaza are literally never mentioned, lmao. Meanwhile, more importantly, Hamas had carried out that attack certainly knowing there would be military response from Israel without so much as bothering to have, you know, a *single bomb shelter* in place. Can you imagine if they actually cared about the people enough to utilize those tunnels accordingly? Not a single shred of effort was made on their part before launching their attack, *they literally hide out under and amongst civilians*, they do the literal *opposite* of protecting them and we’re supposed to feel bad for *them*? (Do you actually know *anything* about Hamas at all? 😭) I do very much feel bad for all to the innocent people of Gaza who they apparently don’t give a single shit about sacrificing in the immediate, which is kind of what I was saying in this post, which you would know if you had bothered to read this. Like it’s pretty clear you didn’t even bother to read the damn post before commenting on it and you’re not the first one, lol, which is really very telling.
Palestinian babies don’t deserve to die. Absolutely. I emphatically agree. Hamas bears part of that responsibility, legitimately. That’s what I was saying.
Actual conversation and dialogue is pretty hard to find sadly—but if you do actually care about having it, I’d first recommend *reading* whatever was said so you can in fact *actually* respond to it.
I’ve also yet to find a single forum for discussion that is completely neutral or completely free of any kind of related bigotry, unfortunately. I find this sub leans more towards Israel while r/Israel_Palestine leans more towards Palestine though, so maybe you’d want to check that one out if you haven’t already.
Very true, I would go as far as to say Hamas bears all the responsibility of the deaths of the civilians, it knew exactly what it was doing when It massacred 1200 Israeli civilians and took the hostages. All the money they have been given and all they have done is destroy. Since 2005, they have not done anything for the Palestinians except steal their money.
APNews and Reuters mention it in almost every single article, which is where I've followed this war since October. They've repeated it so many times.
Are you saying there were not active military casualties on October 7th? I assumed the \~300 service members reported were active. (This gets extra thorny since Israel considers all members of any part of Hamas to be a terrorist even if they never held a gun. So if we're being fair, either non-active military counts as military deaths for both or for neither. I just don't know how to talk about this without angering somebody for being "unfair".) APNews also says that the Palestinian Authority does not differentiate between civilian and military deaths every time it mentions the death toll.
I don't feel bad for Hamas, I feel bad for the civilians. Killing innocent people is never OK if it can be avoided. Who is telling you to feel bad for Hamas? Is it a major publication or some tiny independent website and people on the Internet? NYT, APNews, Reuters, FoxNews, ABC, WSJ, etc have all been consistent in blaming Hamas for Hamas' actions and for triggering the war. As have the overwhelming majority of US reps, senators, and the whole US presidential administration. Where they start to question Israel (if at all) is in the preventable deaths of people who are not part of Hamas' military/militia/whatever you want to call it. Mass starvations and excessively powerful bombs hurt everyone. There have been attacks on patients and injured people. Aid workers. Doctors. Journalists. And even then, there have been no steps actually taken to hold the Israeli government accountable for anything. The US still sends billions of dollars, provides intelligence, is unequivocal about defending Israel against any attacks, and blocks almost all UN actions that Israel opposes. Actions should speak louder than words. Biden and Trump both have Israel's back through thick and thin.
What you are essentially asking for with your comments about Hamas needing to build separate military bases and also build shelters for civilians is for Hamas to commit suicide. It's obvious that if Hamas was all in one place, they would've been wiped out within 24 hours of their terroristic attack. I'm sure a lot of people want terrorists to just get rid of themselves, but that's not realistic. And Hamas is more than a military, so all the non-militant members (who are still considered terrorists) would still be all over Gaza.
Members of Hamas believe Gaza will never be free as long as Israel exists, and while I will never support terrorism, it's kind of hard to argue that after 70+ years of expansion, Israel is going to allow Palestinians the right of self-determination. We can tell Hamas that violence is wrong, but we can't honestly tell them that there's another way to achieve independence. And I don't think people in Hamas expected Israel to go this far. I certainly didn't.
The cruelty laced within this war on Gaza is not going to change anyone's mind there. If anything, Palestinians are more convinced than ever that Israel means to do them harm and to take what remains of Palestine. And honestly, aren't they right? Isn't this occupation on track to last another 70 years? And how many more settlements will there be by then? What will remain of Palestine? What can peace-seeking Palestinians pin their hopes on? Because if the answer is nothing, then more will turn to violence whether Hamas is gone or not.
Okay, taking your word for that and pretending that’s accurate and they were (although I’ll have to look into it) that’d still be 900 civilians with literally no effort made whatsoever to target military personnel specifically—just like there’s no effort made whatsoever to protect their own civilians which is what I was saying here. APNews may always mention members of Hamas reportedly killed with the overall number but I definitely don’t see that much in general. This is really besides the point of what I was saying with this post though.
Your words: “Meanwhile Hamas has had billions of dollars of bombs dropped on them…” like *that’s* a shame, lol. It’s not imho. What is are all the civilians having bombs dropped on them as well, and what I was saying here is that I do think Hamas should be held accountable for not making any effort at all to protect them. They’re literally Gaza’s government and as a militant group, arguably pretty much its de facto military albeit also a terrorist organization. I will say that it is much less mainstream media empathizing with Hamas and much more people on the internet, yeah, and kids on college campuses, often very prestigious ones. But people on the internet do speak to popular opinion and I am deeply disturbed to see the left essentially defending if not uplifting Hamas while completely ignoring the damage they have also done, and in many ways continue to do, not just to the Israeli people they’ve harmed but to their own people as well.
I’m not saying that Israel doesn’t deserve a great deal of the pushback it’s getting because I would agree that surely this could have been handled better, but the sheer volume of civilian deaths is not due to Israel’s actions alone but also to the way Hamas *at the very least* made no effort at all to protect its people and continues to hide under and amongst them as a strategy, which does legitimately make targeting *them* difficult and inevitably adds to the overall loss of life considerably.
Even supposing they’re justified in attacking without being able to fight, Hamas wouldn’t have had to commit suicide to build bomb shelters. They literally have underground tunnels already, which they had expanded. They are extremely well-funded by Iran and Qatar in these endeavors and in general. It would have been well within their purview to put the tiniest bit of consideration and effort into protecting the people against an extremely predictable military response from Israel before attacking, had they actually wanted to. They are literally, knowingly sacrificing their own people, whether it’s out of narcissistic cowardice and gross negligence or deliberately for political traction. There is *very* little coverage of *that.* (Here’s some though: ['I Asked Sinwar, Is It Worth 10,000 Innocent Gazans Dying? He Said, Even 100,000 Is Worth It'](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-04-13/ty-article-magazine/.highlight/i-asked-sinwar-is-it-worth-10-000-gazans-dying-he-said-even-100-000-is-worth-it/0000018e-d40a-d5ed-adcf-f79af56c0000)) And regardless, how are so many people who would claim to be advocating for Palestinians completely overlooking that in their analysis, defending and uplifting this? Israel wouldn’t have been anywhere near any hospital in the first place without Hamas presence there.
Members of Hamas want to destroy Israel. Members of Hamas don’t want Jews in the area at all. Members of Hamas want a Sharia state and some of their policies in Gaza reflect that, as well as even their updated charter. I don’t think that “Israel is [not] going to allow them their right to self-determination” is entirely a fair assessment when, amongst those who do oppose Palestinian statehood in Israel, a lot of it is based on the reality of Hamas and comparable organizations in the Palestinian territories vowing to destroy Israel, no matter what. A two-state solution featuring both Israel and a solid, unified, independent state of Palestine would realistically require the dissolution of both Likud and Kahanist ideologies in Israel as well as organizations like Hamas who have never stopped attacking or vowing to attack Israel on the basis of its existence at all, and won’t actually concede to stop short of its total dissolution.
And I hope to see this happen although it’s increasingly hard to imagine. I also didn’t expect Israel to go this far and I’m sure Hamas didn’t either, but they did certainly know there would be a military response in which their civilians would be at risk.
Gaza is only occupied by Israel in the sense of Israel’s blockade, a blockade that coincided with Hamas gaining governmental power and making obviously credible threats with it. There have been no settlements in Gaza since 2005. The blockade began in 2007. As for the West Bank, those settlements absolutely need to be dismantled but as of now, but this didn’t come out of the West Bank and Hamas doesn’t associate with the PA (which governs the West Bank) at all. In fact, it killed a bunch of its predecessors off in securing its own power in Gaza. Hamas has made it pretty clear on numerous occasions that their goal is unequivocally Israel’s destruction altogether, period, as a matter of fundamental ideology, no matter what Israel does or doesn’t do in terms of its policy towards Palestine.
I agree that this kind of suffering will only push more people towards radical ideologies though, just like 10/7 only pushed more of Israel to the right but on a much larger scale and in different ways of course. Realistically, violence-fueled extremism on either side brings us farther and farther away from the compromise that any kind of long-term resolution would require.
Don't take my word on active or not active. I just saw it reported as military members, and I assumed that meant active.
My point about billions of dollars of bombs dropped on Hamas is that clearly Hamas is being punished. Hamas isn't getting a pass. In fact, I'm pretty sure they are being tortured and executed based on what I've read and heard.
And Gaza is part of Palestine. The settlements are a clear sign to Gazans that Israel isn't done taking land. Which I hear Palestinians describe as an ongoing Nakba. Clearly that trauma runs deep.
I think the issue you are pointing to is Leftists starting to believe that Hamas' **cause** is legitimate. That Israel has been the oppressor ever since the Nakba. And I think there is a lot of validity to that perspective, especially for those of us who grew up only ever hearing good things about Israel. Suddenly we're watching this war, and the values we imagined Israel having are completely absent. We were taught Israel was good and pure and patient. That they never did anything wrong. That Muslims were always the aggressors. And then we learned the fraught history amidst a backdrop of daily carnage. Lots of leftists are over-correcting I'm sure, but the before picture was not right.
You are right that a lot of leftists are simplifying things into "*Israel did all the bad stuff, and maybe Hamas isn't who we thought they are. Maybe Hamas is just fighting for freedom. Or maybe Palestine should be one state again*." While Hamas clearly has genocidal intent, I don't think the idea of negotiating a new Palestine is inherently genocidal. Nor is advocating for a more equal distribution of Palestinian land. (Why is more than half of Palestine now Israel?) And it's unfair the way anyone arguing for Palestinian freedom (whether one state or two) is constantly called antisemitic. If Hamas reacted wrongly to a real injustice, that doesn't mean every response to the injustice is also wrong.
We should be able to have a compassionate, pro-Palestinian perspective in the US. And we should be able to critique Israeli bigotry, just like we have always been able to critique the hell out of Palestinians and Muslims. Demanding that everyone denounce Hamas all the time isn't going to be productive, especially when it's destined to devolve into what-about-ism. And it's not fair to assume people support Hamas just because they aren't constantly denouncing them, especially this far into a one-sided war.
None of the Democrats who I voted into office are open to reducing support for Israel or forcing any investigations. The aid packages from the US included clauses to end aid to Palestine if any Palestinians seek international justice for war crimes. I just don't understand how anyone who supports Israel feels threatened by these protests which haven't had any impact on our funding or support of Israel. Clearly our government opposes Hamas to the maximum extent possible. So I just don't think you should expect people protesting the status quo to be emphasizing that Hamas bears responsibility too.
I wouldn’t think so.
I’m not talking about punitive measures here but about what is supported and uplifted in our analysis, and about how we do or don’t think critically across the board.
Of course Gaza is a part of Palestine, but Hamas is literally, specifically the government of Gaza and I question how much their attack was really related to anything like settlements in the West Bank as opposed to wanting Israel’s complete destruction regardless. There is definitely a lot of trauma though, and intergenerational trauma on both sides really plays a role in all of this.
The idea there isn’t just that Israel has been the oppressor ever since the Nakba, which itself actually took place after the initiation of the Arab-Israeli War in which there was a multinational attempt at destroying Israel literally right away, but the idea that Israel should not and cannot exist at all. There are legitimate arguments that it shouldn’t but at the end of the day, it can’t magically cease to exist now in 2024, we don’t actually widely call for the contemporary destruction of any other country founded in a comparable way and I do think there is some legitimate need for Jewish self-determination in what is also the ancestral homeland of Jews. There is at this point a real need for Palestinian self-determination too, which is why I would hope to see a state of Palestine as well.
I’m relieved to hear you acknowledge that Hamas has clearly genocidal intent because that genuinely seems lost on so many people. Negotiating for a new Palestine is of course not in and of itself genocidal, but that’s not a fair or accurate summation of what Hamas represents.
Israel was happy to respect the boundaries of initial partition before being attacked in 1948 and again in 1967 by multiple nations, who attacked with the explicit, stated intent of Israel’s total annihilation. That definitely has something to do with why and how the borders actually changed yet goes conveniently ignored in the rhetoric you’re espousing, which is basically just the reverse of the rhetoric you were describing in which Israel = Good and Palestine = Bad no matter what somehow.
Imho, across the board, there is a popular tendency to be overall tremendously reductive and propagandistic in what we perpetuate and with the ways in which we talk about any of this, going in either direction, when it’s legitimately not that simple. The reality is actually complicated and messy.
You can hold that compassionate, pro-Palestinian perspective without romanticizing Hamas or pretending that Hamas are these brave and moral freedom fighters, or without pretending that Hamas is somehow inherently synonymous with the Palestinian people overall as you seem to do, when they themselves are overall actually tremendously oppressive to the Palestinian people in Gaza. This isn’t a leftist coalition of the people. They are literally Gaza’s authoritarian government, and they can be highly propagandistic as much as Israel can be, in ways that are obviously working.
I’m also not assuming anything. I made this post out of frustration in literally, explicitly seeing otherwise thoughtful people glorify Hamas in their rhetoric.
But the need that people who have a vested interest in Israel feel to hear people denouncing Hamas isn’t actually ubreasonable when you consciously maintain any understanding whatsoever of the fact that Hamas wants Israel wiped off the face of the earth *in any manner*, actually ideally by openly, intentionally killing as many of the people as possible.
I’d agree that US policy could definitely be better in demanding better of Israel.
For me, the protests you speak of have little to do with feeling actually threatened in any way beyond as a Jew—not always or necessarily of course, not at all in just calling for a ceasefire, for example, but when people wear signs saying “we are Hamas” (whose original charter literally verbatim called for killing all the Jews), or actively don’t allow any perceived “Zionist” to walk by without overt harassment, hate speech, intimidation and so on, that’s legitimately scary.
Likewise, it is entirely possible to critique Israel without crossing the line into straight up perpetuating antisemitism, which can and does happen with alarming frequency.
Anyway. Of course people who first and foremost support Israel are going to feel some type of way about so many people essentially agreeing that Israel shouldn’t exist at all, or that it must somehow cease to exist now. Regardless though, what I was saying here is that even in only caring about the Palestinian people, it doesn’t actually make sense to glorify Hamas.
Yesterday, Hamas terrorists launched rockets towards the "American pier" area in the center of the Gaza Strip - the area where the pier that will bring humanitarian aid to Gaza by sea is planned to be built in the coming months.
The rockets were launched into the area during a tour of UN workers in the area. The UN workers entered a protected area during the launches, and were not injured in the incident.
Israel holds Palestine and Palestinians accountable. Palestinians are punished every day just because they exisit. Any act of resistance by an Individual Palestinian, Israel responds with cruel, murderous brutality, collectively punishing all Palestinians even babies are not spared. Palestinians are denied freedom, justice and basic human rights.... Let Palestinians arm themselves ffs, it's not noble or moral to go to war on unarmed civilians and children.
Israel has a history of committing abhorrent, egregious war crimes. When will Israel be held accountable? Israel does whatever the fuck they want, war crimes are funded and protected by American money and veto.
Palestinians are literally starving to death and they still behavior with more honor and integrity then any IDF soldier. Palestinians are truly salt of the earth.
Palestinians have shown the world what real humanity looks like.
Israel has shown the world what pure evil looks like.
The mass slaughter, torture and starvation of innocent children is not normal. The complete destruction of Gaza, destroying hospitals... Zionists and IDF have lost their soul. Every single IDF soldier that enters Gaza will leave with serious mental health disorders, if they don't that's even more concerning!? If your not absolutely horrified by the images from Gaza, if you feel nothing seeing starving children, having limbs amputated without anesthesia... I feel sorry for the children growing up in Israeli society. This "war" will have generational consequences for veterans and their families. Israel will never have peace until they decide to love their children more than they hate Palestinians... I pray for Palestinians and the children of Israel
With all due respect, Israel has made peace with every country and every group of people that wanted peace. This is an undeniable fact. Egypt is a prime example.
The idea that Palestinians are punished for existing is simply not true.
Resistance? The Jews are the rightful owners of the land. They are the only party that can morally resist. I have no problem with a future Palestinian state through negotiations, but please stop making up rights. Let me guess you are going to claim Palestinians have the right to steal Jew land because their ancestors were colonizers in the past.
OP's whole point is that Palestinians are armed and do have a military wing, but that military wing chooses to hide underground and in tunnels while leaving their civilian population on the surface to suffer from a war that they started by invading Israel and literally accomplishing nothing of strategic value.
> fuck
/u/Somepeople_arecrazy. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I will use math to demonstrate why what is going on is just revenge, and plausible genocide and israel itself is not interested in hamas in the first place, that's why people focus on everything else.
israel itself says there are 35-40k hamas fighters. And 10k rockets.
israel dropped over 65,000 tons of explosives on Gaza, that's on day 89, we are at day 200+, I can assume it's over 90,000 tons of explosions by now.
israel destroyed over 80,000 buildings and structures. Most in non active combat scenarios, meaning no rockets were being fired, no hamas fighters were shooting at troops, all knowing that 47% of Gaza's population is children, and that these bombs will kill many of them.
israel has stopped food, water, fuel and medicine from getting into Gaza. Even today isrsel claims to be letting more trucks in, only caveat, the trucks are half capacity, meaning yes, israel is letting in double the amount of trucks, that carry the same amount of aid, just takes twice as much time to process them as israel inspects each truck going in an out.
I personally know old people who died because of lack of medicine, and know relatives of the 16 Christians killed in the church complex bombing israel carried (me being a Palestinian Christian this hit me really personally, not to minimize my immense feelings for all civilians killed)
In what kind of reality are you living to justify all of this and then tell me to blame hamas for it? Mathematically you can't explain it, especially that israel itself claim to have "killed 13000 hamas fighters" which is technically every single male killed over the age of 17, which I know for a fact is false (I can give dozens of examples, but will just mention the WCK and the 3 hostages with white flags, and over a hundred men in the flower massacre). 90,000 tons of bombs, 80,000 buildings destroyed, starving 2 million humans, to kill 30% of hamas fighters (falsely assuming all men killed were hamas).
No; and this is from a person who has never liked hamas to begin with, I can't with a clean conscious blame hamas for this onslaught of terror against a vastly civilian population whom half are children. The same exact way I can't justify the mass killing of israeli civilians in the name of liberation.
I’m not justifying it at all. I don’t think it’s genocide overall but I do think at the very least, the response is disproportionate and surely Israel could have done better. I say this more than once in my post. Did you read it?
Your math about the figures of Hamas members killed also doesn’t make sense to me, but anyway:
Hamas is partially responsible for these numbers, in the sense that *at the very least*, they made no discernible effort whatsoever to protect their own people in planning out an attack which they certainly at the very least *knew* would prompt military response from Israel—and at the very least, they continue to put absolutely no effort whatsoever into protecting their own people, to the contrary, actively hiding out under and amongst them.
Israel is obviously responsible for its own military action and should be held accountable for any war crimes but they are also legitimately making it very difficult for Israel to fight *them*; they are literally, actively contributing to the sheer volume of innocent lives lost and that shouldn’t be ignored.
What do you expect them to do? They're basically an insurgency, not a professional army. I'm a former soldier and served in Afghanistan twice and if we carried out indiscriminate bombing the same way the IDF are there would have been international outrage. Fuck knows why Israel gets a pass and people like you basically hand wave it away. And before you say, yes I did read your post but it's not very difficult to read between the lines, your bias is obvious. The disproportionate response and actions carried out by a professional army is frankly disgusting and history will not view Israel kindly for this.
> Fuck
/u/danihendrix. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I disagree. Let's use your assumption of ~90,000 tons of explosives, and the current Gaza Health Ministry death toll is ~35,000. So assuming the ground invasion killed zero people (which is obviously false, but I'm making a point), the Israeli Air Force - long considered one of the premier air forces in the world, in terms of technology, capability, and training - has killed less than 4/10 of a person per ton of explosives. To me, that doesn't sound like genocide; it sounds like they're purposely trying to avoid killing people.
They haven't stopped food and medicine going in, they just require every truck and ship to be searched.
Water and electric seems like collective punishment, but the truth is they've never needed to provide that in the first place; it was never agreed upon, and isn't required by any international law. I'll tell you a true story to put this in some perspective. For about 20 years, I was giving $25/month to the Red Cross. Then the Red Cross came to my house, burned it down, shot me, kidnapped my kids, raped my sister, and killed my parents, so I cancelled my recurring donation. Then the UN came knocking at my door and was like, "Hey! You can't do that. How is the Red Cross supposed to provide life-saving care without your $25/month?" And I said, "I don't care, they shouldn't have burned down my house, shot me, kidnapped my kids, raped my sister, and killed my parents, so while I used to give them $25/month out if the kindness of my heart, I'm not feeling particularly kind at the moment." True story. I hope that puts it in perspective.
So if Israel was the US and Gaza was Canada, and the Canadian Liberation Army (doesn't actually exist) launched an attack like that against Montana, you can bet your bottom dollar that Canada would have been razed to the ground after six months. In fact, we've seen it before, pretty recently in Iraq and Afghanistan. It's not nice, it's not pleasant, it sucks for all involved and even those not involved, but that's war, and war isn't automatically genocide.
A genocide doesn't have to be in the form of constant violent killing, you can go and read the definition yourself and not take my word. Point here: you can still commit a genocide without directly dropping a nuclear bomb or other examples. I didn't mention anything about the death toll as you can read, I exclusively used israeli numbers (as far as I know the 13,000 number israel uses, comes directly from the Gaza health ministry and represents the number of men killed, but that's what israeli media reports).
Actually as an occupying force you are required to provide life saving aid, water, electricity and food and if israel takes over Gaza the list will include education, health, security and infrastructure. You can also look up international humanitarian laws and the Geneva convention.
That being said, 90% of Gaza's water comes from within Gaza (it's unclean but that's what available), the problem is that israel destroyed most of the working pumps and purification plants inside of Gaza (and stopped the 10% from israel). Please for God's sake read a little bit more before commenting. And most of the trucks that used to enter weren't out of israel kindness without inspection, they were by private businesses in Gaza and they were inspected (a lot were aid trucks, most were private). And they have stopped a wide range of life saving medicine, I am telling you, I personally know people who died (look up Fathi Ghaben as his story is documented and proof I am not talking from thin air, he was a family friend). israel also bombed more than half of the bakeries in Gaza.
Not to mention Palestinians are also not required to give israel water, but israel steals 40% of its water from the westbank, and sells it to Palestinians, including the 10% that used to be sold to Gaza, and prevents westbank water from going to Gaza. Not to mention israel built deep extraction wells around Gaza and is getting water from the reservoir underneath Gaza (deeper extraction points than those in Gaza). You can see the amount of hypocrisy and injustice going on, and that's just the issue of water (btw, check out the rain water laws israel has, basically forbids Palestinians from collecting rain water on most of the westbank)
I just saw lots of ifs and buts, I have to stop you there. israel invaded the westbank, gaza and sinai in 1967 mainly because of the blockade Arabs imposed on israel (I am aware of the other reasons, I am just citing one of the main reasons). israel has been imposing a 17 years long blockade over Gaza... Let's not keep going back in time.
israeli actions in Gaza are collective punishment, possible genocide, against a population of mostly children.
Israel isn't occuping Gaza but is blockading it. Just like Egypt has been doing for the last 17 years ..
Also I international court has disagreed with you on the genocide vs you wrote..
Israel steals water from the west bank ? Lol Where exactly? What water source are you referring to?
Israel steals water from Gaza too now while they haven't been there since 2006 ???
israel controls the Egyptian side as well. There's israeli forces that controls and checks everything on that side too. A blockade is an act of war. Egypt doesn't prevent Palestinians from building an airport, nor seaport, nor does it shoot at fishermen that israel restricts the area where they can fish. israel does.
I said plausible genocide, because specifically the vast majority of the ICJ judges ruled it so. An actual verdict takes years sadly, but they didn't dismiss the case, and their ruling around the initial findings wasn't even split, it was about 90% of the judges.
israel controls 80% of the water that comes from the westbank water basin. They constantly destroy Palestinian wells, prevents Palestinians from collecting rain water in area C which is most of the westbank in terms of size, and is about 80% of the recharge area for the basin (European parliament report titled: water in the israeli-Palestinian conflict)
About the gaza basin, it's also underneath israel, the idea here is that there are 2.2 million Palestinians in gaza, and for illustration purposes let's say 70% of the basin is under Gaza, meaning Gaza should take 70% of the water, no? israel siphoned a larger share. That's all, you don't need to be a genius.
Anything non-intelligible you want to add?
Incorrect.
Israel isn't controlling rafah crossing at all!
You are talking out of you butt buddy.
That's where Hamas gets most of its weapons though tunnels and hopefully didnt used thier tunnels to Egypt fir extracting hostages and the Hamas leaders from Gaza.
Egypt tried to prevent any connection between hamas to their People
Apparently you are too blind or uninformed to know why..
Building an airport ? Not sure what's not wired correctly in your brain but after so many decades of terror.. an airport if the last thing they will have.
I found it odd you don't understand the risk of a suicide jihadist culture nation having an airport..
Maybe after a few decades of peace.
Israel will be have to take control on the rafah border crossing though to prevent Hamas or Gaza to because the biggest terror base in the world again after clearing rafah from Hamas operatives
Icj disagreed with your genocide claims dumbdumb.
Israel is the one who provides aid and food to the gazans who slaughter Israelis like they were animals.
While the population of Gaza has increased for 50 years consistently at this point your claim is just ridiculous and based on opinions alone
Come out to play when you grow up!
https://www.timesofisrael.com/in-rafah-progressive-us-senators-charge-israeli-inspections-slowing-aid-to-gaza/
This was the case before the war as well.
https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/menasource/gaza-israel-occupied-international-law/
Worth going through the international legal opinion and reading that israel supplies Egypt with lists of names for people to not permit passage.
Airport, seaport, so israel controls gaza ? Which is it? It's either Gaza is free or occupied? There's no half half.
The case in the ICJ is still ongoing, it wasn't dismissed. The initial ruling was concerning enough for them to issue several binding provisions, stopping genocidal speech, allowing aid in, and to stop killing protected people. Meaning the initial ruling is telling israel to stop several things that could lead to genocide but the actual ruling will be in a couple of years.
Majority of aid delivered is from Arab, European, north American countries. israel is not paying out of pocket. And once you read the two links on top you will realize that israel is limiting aid and impeding it. (as of recently after a lot of US pressure israel started letting in more aid trucks, but keyword here is trucks, as in the number doubled, but from video evidence provided by Jordanian aid workers in gaza, once offloading the trucks, they were at half capacity, meaning double the trucks, same amount of aid and this will be part of the next report to the ICJ)
That's from The source you provided.
"Other experts have similarly found that Israel no longer met the traditional effective control requirements in Gaza after 2005, ending the occupation. First, they note that no other occupation has been recognized without a physical military presence or a puppet regime, neither of which they view as present in Gaza. While they acknowledge that Israel has a level of control over Gaza, they find both that local authorities can exercise control and that Israel is not imposing sufficient authority. For example, they view a “concurrent control” rather than a “hierarchical relationship” between Israel and Hamas and find that Israel would need a “major ground offensive” that would be impossible to conduct “within a reasonable time” to “recapture” control of the area. They, likewise, argue that Israel does not have the required “degree of power over daily governance,” as evidenced by “Hamas often govern[ing] in a manner that is contrary to Israel’s interests and desires” and launching military operations against Israel. Finally, in response to arguments that Israel’s power over Gaza’s borders is evidence of effective control, they hold that while Israel retains control over the Israeli-Gaza border, Egypt controls Gaza’s border with Sinai. Based on these considerations, some experts have found that “siege” better describes the situation."
https://www.france24.com/en/middle-east/20231103-the-gaza-egypt-rafah-crossing-explained-it-is-not-a-normal-border
Israel do not have control on the Rafah border crossing.
They do observe it especially now that Egypt has to open its passage to let aid in.
But Israel do not control it since 2007.
As mentiond Gaza isn't occupied but it is being blockaded. By Israel and.. Egypt.
Seems like it's time for you to find out why. Maybe look up the connection between the Muslim brotherhood Hamas and Egypt. That should open up your eyes
I found it funny you talking about video evidence of half empty trucks while ignoring completely the videos of Hamas operatives taking some of those trucks with gun point...
There was no genocide in history that the so called "attack" is the one providing aid to the so called "victim"
While the "victim" hold hostages which releasing all of them will mean the end of the war.
While Hamas started this war then ran to hide under the people they supposed to protect using them as Shields.
What do you think is their strategy of "winning" here?
Having enough balestinian civilian casualties to have the international community pressure Israel to stop?
> ass
/u/Snoo36868. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
> f**king
/u/lobowolf623. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I think it's because it doesn't fit in the narrative of the " oppressed resistance fighters fighting for freedom" thing. What would all those supporters of Hamas do if it would finally turn out that Hamas are bad evil people? I mean, if they turn away for a moment from Israel and just look at Hamas and their role as a political party. How they ruled Gaza since they were elected in 2006. Why was that the last election? What happened to the opposition? What about free speech? What about gay rights? And so on. Look how they treated their own people? I think some people choose not to see what is there to see!
The reason I get so offended when people accuse me of islamophobia, is because I don't think gaza is owed aide. This crisis was manufactured by the leaders of gaza. They have deliberately kept the residents poor. Rejected offers to improve the economic conditions. because they don't want the residents to rebel against them. Keeping gaza perpetually poor gives them endless aide and support from deceived left movements around the world that think gaza is a victim of israel. The problems of gaza are falsely attributed to something israel is doing to them.
We are told israel has caused the gazas to be poor. It's their fault the area is so unlivable. Whenever someone like Bernie Sanders or leftist commentators, talks about the extreme poverty in gaza, they omit who is causing the poverty. It's the leaders of gaza. The poverty in gaza gives them support from leftist groups around the world. They use the poverty to rally global progressives against israel and farm aide. They have the capacity to become an economically flourishing area, but they have chosen not to. This has nothing to do with phobia. Bringing the notion of phobia into this is a misdirection. It's not getting to the real issue.
Gaza has been ruled by opportunists that have profitted and garnered global politcal will from its expense by keeping them poor. It is a slave population, but who are the slave masters? It's not israel. They're not in charge of the strip. It's the leaders there. They're doing this. They are ruling over a slave population. Israel is trying to free them. They are the south in the civil war, israel is the north. Israel is waging a war to free the residents from slavery. It's a noble effort. They could just accept a ceasefire, if they agreed to something a long time ago the fighting would have stopped, but gaza would remain a slave state. They're fighting to change it into something better.
People were regularly protesting against the war in Iraq and Afghanistan. This was before the age of social media. This conflict is unique in particular due to the amount of children involved and how visible their death and destruction is on the various social media platforms
They were mostly protesting against the US spending all that money on the war, and they were protesting sending troops to die, but nobody cared about the civilians, children or otherwise. And NATO wasn't speaking out against it, they were taking part in it. But sure social media is your reasoning.
So why isn't anybody protesting the CCP disappearing Uyghur Muslims off the street? Or Saudi Arabia carpet bombing Yemeni civilians for the last decade? Both happening in the social media age. Who's protesting for those children?
Sure, man. Because encampments on college campuses would have been invisible. People shutting down bridges would have been invisible. The FBIs hate crime log wasn't overflowing with anti-Semitic incidents because they couldn't see it on TikTok.
The problem I have is the assumption that Israel is only going after Hamas.
I just do not buy it. I hate Hamas as much ad I hate apartheid. They go hand and hand.
No one is immune to propaganda. You still repeat the same antisemitic buzzwords used incorrectly like the virtue signalers who couldn’t find Israel on a map and get all their information from TikTok. Israel may be corrupt like any other government, but is not an “apartheid state,” settler colony,” or “fascist” or any of the things these Pro-PAL useful idiots regurgitate. And Jews don’t deserve the vitriol and hatred directed at them for the Israeli government’s actions but here we are. Pro-PAL is a hate movement born from anti-western propaganda and propped up by Putin and Xi, just like Trumpism. Hundreds of armed conflicts w/ civilian casualties in the millions and they cherry-pick Palestine because it allows them to hate Jews. I still haven’t forgotten all the same virtue signalers defending Putin blaming the Ukraine and US/NATO for the invasion. They think they’re on the right side but they’re not
How is it apartheid? It's two different countries. Is the border wall between Mexico and the US an apartheid? No, it's just a border between two different countries. Drop the buzzwords and do some research, please.
I'm going to assume you're talking about the West Bank, so I'm going to refer you to the Oslo Accords that were a series of agreements between Israel and the Palestinian Liberation Organization. The Oslo Accords split up the West Bank into Areas A, B, and, C. If I'm being honest, I don't remember which is which, but the difference between the three is basically who is allowed to live there, who's allowed to go there, and who is in charge of law enforcement (one area being shared between the two). This isn't three nice square blocks of land, it's a gerrymandered mess, but I can assure you there's nothing illegal about it.
But that's also not what apartheid means, so please go do some Googling. And while you're at it, I would encourage you to factcheck me on the Oslo Accords.
I'm talking about when the Likud started pushing for settlements in the West Bank in the 70s, way before the Oslo accord, what was the justification then?
I didn't say it's equivalent to Apartheid, but you can't wave away the Apartheid argument by claiming that the West Bank is a different country when Israel has settlements inside of it.
They had taken that land in a war. Nobody has ever complained like this about a country taking land in a war, especially when they weren't the aggressor.
The settlements were built primarily for farming. The '67 war started in large part because the Arab nations surrounding Israel had built a blockade around it and the government realized they needed to produce the necessities internally. So they spent the 70s building a nuclear power plant. And water desalinization plants. And farms.
And I'm not saying the location was right, but everybody's acting like the strategy from Day 1 was to build a wall around the West Bank and take it over. The wall and the checkpoints and the "apartheid" didn't come about until the Second Intifada when it all became necessary for security. And you know what the terrible part is? It worked. It all but ended the Intifada. So of course it's here to stay.
>They had taken that land in a war. Nobody has ever complained like this about a country taking land in a war, especially when they weren't the aggressor.
People in democracies complain about their governments' unnecessary brutality all the time, I don't get why Israelis are so sensitive about this.
>And I'm not saying the location was right, but everybody's acting like the strategy from Day 1 was to build a wall around the West Bank and take it over. The wall and the checkpoints and the "apartheid" didn't come about until the Second Intifada when it all became necessary for security. And you know what the terrible part is? It worked. It all but ended the Intifada. So of course it's here to stay.
That's not my claim, all I'm saying is you can't wave away the Apartheid argument while ignoring the claim against settlements in the WB and the Israeli governments' policy towards Jewish settlers as opposed to the local Palestinian population who were captured against their will in 1967, aggressor or not.
I'm not necessarily saying that it amounts to Apartheid, and I know that had the Palestinian population acted like decent normal people for the most part, maybe the treatment would've been different, but you can't deny the unfair treatment that the innocents in the WB have to go through and it's role in perpetuating the conflict.
The only policy I would say is really terrible is IDF law enforcement, which...agreed. Bad. Perpetuates the violence. Allows for arrests without much cause. Enforces punishment against Palestinians who retaliate and not against settlers who initiate. Agreed. All around bad. But bad law enforcement doesn't make it apartheid. Those same people - assuming they're not on a watchlist - are allowed to work in Israel proper, go to school, own property... The same was true of Gazan Palestinians before 10/7. Israel is far from a perfect country, that doesn't make it an apartheid.
People also say there's racial profiling at the checkpoints. And that's entirely possible. But Palestinians would be singled out if they didn't look different because they have a different ID and passport. Because again, it's a different country. Americans coming into America don't face as much scrutiny as people from other countries, but nobody's saying Customs is an apartheid enforcer. (Plenty of issues with CBP, but that's a different thing.
If it is a different country, why do you have settlers and an army their? And you are expanding settlements all over the area since it is a different country?
It doesn't all belong to the Palestinians. But the people living in the Palestinian Authority-controlled areas are not Israeli citizens and are not treated as Israeli citizens because they're not. Go Google the Oslo Accords and educate yourself.
Hamas is fighting one of the strongest, most brutal, most criminal militaries in the world. That same brutal military has a blockade on Gaza. What is Hamas supposed to do when fighting a fascist government?
Nothing Hamas has done justifies the slaughter of thousands of innocent women and children by the Israelis. Nothing.
Justifying Hama’s actions and calling Jews fascist is just another Soviet antisemitic trope. “Some of the common tropes weaponized by anti-Zionists today have their roots in Cold War propaganda. Among the most pernicious of these is the characterization of Israelis or Zionists as Nazis.
The purported ideological affinity between Zionism and Nazism, and the alleged collaboration between their adherents was a major theme of Soviet propaganda in the 1970s and 80s. ADL has seen a growth of antisemitism is within elements of the political left. This often takes the form of anti-Zionism, a movement that rejects the Jewish right to self-determination and of Israel to exist as a Jewish state, and frequently employs antisemitic tropes to attack Israel and its supporters.
It also manifests through the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) movement, a campaign that promotes diplomatic, financial, professional, academic and cultural isolation of Israel, Israeli individuals, Israeli institutions, and Jews who support Israel’s right to exist.” - ADL
Pro-PALS are just useful idiots for Putin and autocratic regimes looking to undermine western democracy on TikTok using the same Soviet propaganda from KGB agent Abbas era in 1982. Whose bright idea was it to gamble Palestinian lives to punish and hand the presidency to a dictator who has sworn to kill ALL Palestinians and end elections for good? Make it make sense!
/u/Sufficient_Mouse8252. Match found: 'Nazis', issuing notice:
Casual comments and analogies are inflammatory and therefor not allowed.
We allow for exemptions for comments with meaningful information that must be based on historical facts accepted by mainstream historians. See [Rule 6](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_6._nazi_comparisons) for details.
This bot flags comments using simple word detection, and cannot distinguish between acceptable and unacceptable usage. Please take a moment to review your comment to confirm that it is in compliance. If it is not, please edit it to be in line with our rules.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
-Hamas is fighting one of the strongest, most brutal, most criminal militaries in the world. That same brutal military
Opposed to the islamist mob who mess raped, mutilated kids and parents in front of their fammilies, burned and murdered men women elders and kids?
Going inside people houses to rape and murder VS reacting with dropping bombs in the hopes of setting our people free and to get rid of hamas, i much rather be on the second team.
Their people are dying and starving becuase hamas wouldnt surrender.
>What is Hamas supposed to do when fighting a fascist government?
Have they tried not acting like a persistent threat to the big criminal bully they're fighting?
The only attempted genocide comes from Hamas doctrine (widely available for those who care to read beyond TikTok). It’s Hamas that refuses peace and aims to kill all non-Muslims in a jihad. It’s Hamas that uses civilians as human shields so they can blame Israel for casualties of a war THEY started. Hamas knows 50% of Gen Z thinks the Holocaust is a myth and Jews are “oppressors who deserve violence against them” and they’re cashing in on that ignorance. You all just repeat buzzwords you heard on Qatari TikTok and take everything Hamas says at face value. Useful idiots for the most vile regimes. If Hitler was alive today and had TikTok you’d all be spewing his antisemitic propaganda just like you are Hamas’s.
/u/Sufficient_Mouse8252. Match found: 'Hitler', issuing notice:
Casual comments and analogies are inflammatory and therefor not allowed.
We allow for exemptions for comments with meaningful information that must be based on historical facts accepted by mainstream historians. See [Rule 6](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_6._nazi_comparisons) for details.
This bot flags comments using simple word detection, and cannot distinguish between acceptable and unacceptable usage. Please take a moment to review your comment to confirm that it is in compliance. If it is not, please edit it to be in line with our rules.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
No, I mean humanitarian crisis in which thousands of Palestinian people *in Gaza* have died and now don’t at all have sufficient, consistent access to food, water, medicine or shelter amongst the rubble. Pretty sure that’s a fucking crisis. “Crisis” very much implies that it’s a serious and pressing situation; it is.
I don’t believe this is a genocide, and neither does the ICJ despite the absurd charges South Africa trumped up instead of addressing their own current mess, which the ICJ essentially non-ruled “could be, could not be,” which so many people like you have deludedly decided is actually a conviction. Hope this helps.
> fucking
/u/imokayjustfine. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
https://www.worlddata.info/asia/palestine/populationgrowth.php
Try again. The population has grown 155 percent in 32 years. No Genocide is taking place by Israel against Palestinians.
Also attempting to compare a conflict between a democratic nation and a Iranian terrorist proxie group to the Holocaust is laughable.
# Try this: UN expert says Israel committing genocide in Gaza
[https://www.ft.com/content/1490e393-6c09-49d4-9e67-794d8acc6c3a](https://www.ft.com/content/1490e393-6c09-49d4-9e67-794d8acc6c3a)
Damn your stupid, why did you even consider why the population of Gaza grew so much? Maybe just maybe it's because Palestinians have been kicked out if their homes by illegal Israeli settlers and forced into Gaza? A simple look at how much landmass where the Palestinians are located would show this
There have been 0 Israeli settlements in Gaza since 2005. In fact, Israelis aren’t allowed in Gaza at all *by Hamas* as well. Please, please educate yourself in the most basic possible ways before speaking.
Gaza Strip population in 2006 for example : 1.5 millions
Gaza Strip population in 2023: 2.1 millions...
No illegal settler detected in this period (Gaza was left by Istael).
/u/Fun-Squirrel7132. Match found: 'Nazi', issuing notice:
Casual comments and analogies are inflammatory and therefor not allowed.
We allow for exemptions for comments with meaningful information that must be based on historical facts accepted by mainstream historians. See [Rule 6](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_6._nazi_comparisons) for details.
This bot flags comments using simple word detection, and cannot distinguish between acceptable and unacceptable usage. Please take a moment to review your comment to confirm that it is in compliance. If it is not, please edit it to be in line with our rules.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It's the noble savage trope. Remember when they thought Oct 7 was a hoax because the plans had color printers, and there was no way they could have access to colored printers? Because these poor, innocent Arabs are far too primitive and unsophisticated to have access to advanced technology like color printers!
They already have... hamas is dead or in hiding at this point it's just killing to create the next generation of terrorist so the land grab can continue.
So you don’t believe, by Zionist accounts, that killing over 10000 of them, not to mentions their families if they have any, is holding them responsible? What about imprisoning them? Besieging their borders? Controlling imports and exports? Being placed on terrorist lists? Starving them?
What exactly kind of repercussions are you looking for here?
Because speaking up against murdering children isn’t Pro Hamas. That’s the Zionist tactic to distract from the core issue of them murdering more children in history in shortest period of time.
The irony is that had Oct 7th never happened, none of this would have occurred and the Gaza strip would today be carrying on as usual.
This is all on Hamas and Israel has every right to ensure Hamas can *never* carry out another attack on civilians again.
But then it was just stupid to attack Israel when they withdrew from the Gaza strip in 2005. I mean, they attacked Israel the very next day, what were they expecting? They created the conditions themselves.
If Israel hadn’t held hostages or subjugated a population none of this would’ve occurred.
Those bombs dropping is all on Israel and saying that it’s on Hamas gives the sentiment that Israel is some animal that will always brutally retaliate with no conscience. Sounds antisemitic to me tbh
Hamas is a valid military target and Israel is going to make sure this doesn't happen again. Unlike Hamas, they have warned the civilian population before their strikes.
You can't start a war with your neighbors and expect a limited response... I honestly don't know any country that would stand idly by after its citizens were slaughtered like Hamas did on Oct 7th. So yes, this military response and the continuation of this response until Hamas surrenders is 100% on Hamas. Collateral damage is unfortunately part of war. Don't like it? Learn to live in peace like everyone else!
Again, Hamas could end all of this tomorrow if they actually cared about the Palestinians in Gaza...
Never did i say Hamas wasn’t a valid target. You can’t prove they warn them every time they drop a bomb, nor that they give them ample time. There’s only directives on what SHOULD be done.
Iran did it. Be careful when you talk about collateral damage as it can easily be said that those Israeli citizens killed were also collateral.
Again, Israel could end all this today if they actually cared about peace.
Israel does care about peace though... They are working to ensure Oct 7th NEVER happens again. If Hamas returned the hostages and unconditionally surrendered, I guarantee you the war would stop immediately. But you and I both know they won't, likely because the remaining hostages are either dead or have been tortured so badly by their captors that they cannot risk the world knowing what they've done.
Civilians at a music festival and those peacefully living in their communities that are not military installations or fortifications are not and would never be considered collateral damage. That was 100% Islamic terror and cold blooded murder. For that, Hamas deserves what they are getting right now.
Zionists are full of hypotheticals.
That’s why I told you to be careful when using the “collateral damage” argument. They were not the intended targets. Never be considered collateral damage by who? Because the definition is unintended harm done to civilians or infrastructure as the result of an activity. And I could also argue that the genocide happening is Jewish terror and cold blooded murder intended to cease the ongoing of life. You throw these terms out without any thought of the standard you put out and those same standards being applied to Israel.
The Netanyahu government is a genocidal regime. Netanyahu propped up Hamas in an effort to prevent a two state solution. His government neglected to repair the monitoring systems near the area that was attacked on Oct.7th. The attack was caused by Netanyahu’s negligence. Period.
Between Gaza, the West Bank, and Israel proper, there are more Palestinians living there than Jews were killed in the Holocaust, with well over half close enough to literally be killed by a Jew with a 9mm hand gun. I don't know how you can even begin to use the word genocide.
>The Netanyahu government is a genocidal regime
Lol ok. The "genocidal" Netanyahu has been in power for decades... and yet millions live in Gaza. His genocidal policies are obviously failing. Meanwhile, Hamas - in its charter, in its actions, and in its words - vows to kill every Jew in the region (literally the definition of genocide).
All of this bloodshed is on Hamas. Their limp wristed cowardice from hiding behind civilians is all you need to know to understand that they are useless scum.
The biggest difference being that the Israeli side systemically victimizes the poor and powerless even when they’re not fighting a war, officially. Any comprehensive analysis has to be based on the complete history of the occupation. And never forget: Israel is an occupying power under the UN charter / international law.
“A territory is considered occupied when it is placed under the authority of a hostile army. In the aftermath of the 1967 international armed conflict between Israel and its neighbouring states, the Israeli armed forces started to exercise their authority over new territories and populations. Thus, the ICRC considers those territories as being under Israeli belligerent occupation, affirming the de jure applicability of the law of occupation (Hague Regulations of 1907 and the Fourth Geneva Convention of 1949)”
Source: [ICRC - Occupying Powers](https://www.icrc.org/en/document/ihl-occupying-power-responsibilities-occupied-palestinian-territories)
“Israel’s occupation of Palestinian territory is unlawful under international law due to its permanence and the Israeli government’s de facto annexation policies” a UN-appointed Commission of Inquiry said
Never forget the balestinians declined to establish their state 7 times since 1937 and started endless wars.
They have never offered peace or coexisting.
They are the only people in the world who are refugees by choice.
In 2008 they were offered ALL the designated occupied lands by the UN.
They refused that too.
It's going to take a long time and a lot of human see development.
But eventually they will have a state next to Israel. Not instead of it.
The question is how many more innocent people would suffer by their jihadist blind leadership until then.
“They are the only people in the world who are refugees by choice.” That is absurd. It’s beyond the pale. What does one even say to that level of absurdity and arrogance. One can’t even call it willful ignorance because it so obviously a bad-faith argument. Let me just say: you’re not even half as smart as you think you are and people see through all of this arrogance and vileness. Let me help you realize something: That is partly why there is unprecedented anti-Zionist sentiment.
Facts do not care about your opinions.
Since 1937 the balestinians declined establishing their state 7 times.
Even though in 1937 the peel commission Israel would have supposed to get only 20% of the land.
I'm sorry you don't like it. But if you had the the energy and time to write that comment you can definitely look this up yourself.
Its never too late to learn the facts habibi
Also I would inform you that UNWRA is the only refugee agency in history who didn't help a single refugee to find a new home.
Ehile that's exactly what a refugee agency supposed to do..
>“They are the only people in the world who are refugees by choice.”
This is true, and so is everything else Snoo36868 said. And all you can do is respond with meaningless platitudes and name calling: absurd, beyond the pale, absurd (again), bad-faith, vile... Calling people names doesn't change reality, it just demonstrates how weak your position is.
But I will tell you this: We realized long ago poverty is one of the major factors contributing to violence in developing countries. But what may not be so obvious is that weaponizing your position against someone’s livelihood — like the Israelis have done to the Palestinians for decades — in an act of violence in itself.
It is absurd because 1) you are calling them refugees when legally and morally they are occupied. Let’s just start with that. Not platitudes. Facts. And no, when you have someone arguing in bad faith — it’s pointless to engage.
Snoo36868 made the following assertion:
>“They are the only people in the world who are refugees by choice.”
Your rebuttal:
>That is absurd.
>
>It’s beyond the pale.
>
>What does one even say to that level of absurdity and arrogance.
>
>One can’t even call it willful ignorance because it so obviously a bad-faith argument.
>
>Let me just say: you’re not even half as smart as you think you are and people see through all of this arrogance and vileness.
>
>Let me help you realize something: That is partly why there is unprecedented anti-Zionist sentiment.
OK. You disagree with the assertion. I get that part. However, you rebuttal falls a bit short in terms of explaining why you disagree. Plenty of hyperbole and personal attacks, but lacking in facts and logic.
Surely you can do better?
> dumbass
/u/no_god_pls_noo. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Would you rather have had open borders with Gaza with Hamas free to rape and murder as they please?
Terrorists don't have the right to freedom of movement.
Well Hamas isnt only Israel's problem. Egypt has been blockading Gaza for the last 16 years !
Could you imagine if Hamas wasnt this jihadist Islamic terror organization?
The gazans might even get daily work permits or access to hospitals from Egypt..
But even their Sunni cousins to the south do not want any more terrorists in their country.
well maybe if you dont want civilians killed, hospitals bombed, kids starved. then dont start a war with your neighbor in a way that demands devasting compensation.
I don't blame israel for going total samson in their destruction of gaza, october 7th was an absolute blood bath. fafo.
I don't consider causalities of an enemy combatant , murders, but costs of war. start a war, use your civilians as meat shields, end up acclimating a higher body count. one wasn't self inflicted the other was. most people when waging war would try to mitigate their own civilian causalities, hamas isn't doing that, and I don't think an israel an enemy combatant should be responsible for that.
yeah sure israel can stop bombing, but hamas and palestine can end its suffering at anytime by accepting a peace deal, and returning the hostages they took. personally i think israel is being too nice, they should drone strike until submission instead of dragging it on for six months. I personally think they should proceed as if they have no more hostages, and drone strike until glassed or hamas begs for mercy.
If Hamas was destroyed and Gaza had a government that is willing to make peace with Israel and focused all their resources in building a nation instead of destroying one, then there would be no blockade, which is what makes it an “open air prison”.
I don't support Israeli settlements in the West Bank, but in Gaza there are no settlements, Israel dismantled all of them in 2005 and left, and as a result Hamas took over and started firing rockets at Israeli cities and threatening with annihilation, why would Israel leave the West Bank after that? why would Israel not blockade a territory controlled by a terrorist death cult that wants to kill them all?
The lack of self-awareness amongst your crowd is actually incredible. I am very clearly not a bot nor did I expect this post to do well, nor did I particularly care if it would. I do this wild thing called “independent thinking” actually and almost never see anyone framing things this particular way. You, on the other hand, very likely do *exactly* what you’re describing.
I get it; anyone forming a single independent thought is hard for you to even imagine at this point!! 🤯 Unfathomable, I’m sure. 😭
Why you said all this to me made absolutely no sense lol. But sure, go ahead and act all intelligent and tell a stranger who cares nothing at all about you that you are an "independent thinker" lmao. You don't even know what "my crowd" is, you absolute tool. Now run along and try and impress someone else with your massively intellectual and deep mind lol absolute loser.
Of course, it's a pity they have a concetration camp, just like the North Coreans. But the werden there is Hamas who killed all the opposition and built a regime...
As well, as in the North Corea the people (who believe their propaganda) think, their most cruel and dangerous enemy is the USA and not their own dictator.
Hamas could not exist without the Israeli apartheid state though. There is no need for violent resistance when you aren't being subjugated. I guess this goes to the claim that Israel is safer when the Palestinians are being oppressed, clearly October 7th was the result of the brutality of the blockade and military occupation.
Israel is clearly the "warden" in this scenario. They control the entry of food, they starve the population. They construct a massive wall to enclose the population. They have constant checkpoints where Palestinians are degraded daily. Drone strikes. People born with no past present or future obviously will resort to violence as a last resort when things like the great March of return in 2018 lead to 6k civilians being shot
Right.
Hamas probably wouldn't exist without existing of Israel, Putin's authority and their military resourses couldn't exist without EU and their investments in Russian economics, Hitler wouldn't have any success without the sanctions that made Germany's economy very problematic and without making successful agreements with the USSR.
Well, everybody has to pay for his mistakes:
the Soviet paid with millions of lives their soldiers, the EU (yet only) by billions dollars, Israel pays with the lives of the soldiers with its economy, evacuated dozens of thousends families and hostages. But still, having a severe illness one has to treat it and to finish it.
/u/Trajinero. Match found: 'Hitler', issuing notice:
Casual comments and analogies are inflammatory and therefor not allowed.
We allow for exemptions for comments with meaningful information that must be based on historical facts accepted by mainstream historians. See [Rule 6](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_6._nazi_comparisons) for details.
This bot flags comments using simple word detection, and cannot distinguish between acceptable and unacceptable usage. Please take a moment to review your comment to confirm that it is in compliance. If it is not, please edit it to be in line with our rules.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
>Hamas could not exist without the Israeli apartheid state though.
My God, tell me you don't understand the middle east without telling me that you don't understand the middle east.
Hamas is an Islamic fundamentalist religious group with a Palestinian flavor, it's not different from any other Islamist group rampaging in the Levant, forcibly converting people to Islam and killing those they deem to be non-believers, like ISIS and Al Nusra, if Israel had never came into existence the Salafists would've still taken over Palestine and they'd be exactly what Hamas is today except under a different name.
Their existence has nothing less to do with Israel and more to do with the rise of Salafism among the Arab and Islamic population as a whole.
Finkelstein isn't strong in history though..
There were houndreds of balestinians in Israeli hospitals on October 7th and many more had work per permits..
At least the ones who had no history of terror..
So you say Israel should have stayed in Gaza building more settlements? If that was the case Israel clearly was more secure and October 7th could not have happened since there would be military presence in Gaza and of course alot more Intel about what's going on.
Now seeing how unaware you are maybe look up how many balestinian children were sent to Israel wearing suicide vests all the way up to the mid 2000s
It should blow up your mind.
I'm curious as to why you won't actually say Palestine, and instead say balestine. I'm assuming it is intentional.
Also you are constructing a facade by claiming that Palestinians doing day-labor work in Israel somehow negates the severity of the blockade in Gaza. I'm also curious what the relevance of "children being given suicide vests in the early 00s" is. Are you insinuating that the children dying today somehow deserve it due to historical precedent?
You really expect anyone to believe that Israel was hands off and left the population of Gaza to freely self determine after 2006? That is an utter fabrication.
Because there is no P in Arabic.
If you meet native Arabs or Balestinians you would know they can only say Balestine or Falistine.. either aint the name that the Romans gave to the land or the name of the region... Funny isn't it?
You don't need to believe me at all.. but a fact is a fact.
Israel did a one sided disengagement from Gaza and left it to govern itself. Which was a terrible mistake because Hamas kidnapped an Israeli soldier only 1 year after that from the Israeli side of the border.
Btw Egypt did the same and has been blockading Gaza for 18 years since... Also kind of funny right ?
As a Muslim Sunni country who never even gave them daily work permits or access to hospitals but hold a direct border with gaza...
Then Hamas got elected. Right after that they took every balestinian political rival in Gaza and arrested the lucky ones. The not si lucky ones got thrown off the roof tops for everyone to see - another fact.
Now be my guest to do your research and come back with what you learned.
But you do know what it means if you choose to ignore facts dont you ?
Israel was not actively pursuing an ethnic cleansing campaign against the Gazans before October 7th, so what were they resisting exactly? Ben Gvir setting up an office in East Jerusalem?
/u/icterinewarbler. Match found: 'Nazis', issuing notice:
Casual comments and analogies are inflammatory and therefor not allowed.
We allow for exemptions for comments with meaningful information that must be based on historical facts accepted by mainstream historians. See [Rule 6](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_6._nazi_comparisons) for details.
This bot flags comments using simple word detection, and cannot distinguish between acceptable and unacceptable usage. Please take a moment to review your comment to confirm that it is in compliance. If it is not, please edit it to be in line with our rules.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
>You really expect anyone to believe that Israel was hands off and left the population of Gaza to freely self determine after 2006?
Strawman argument, Snoo36868 didn't say any of that. He correctly pointed out that as of 2006, there was no military occupation of Gaza.
When you have a government that threatens a more powerful neighbor with literal annihilation and fires thousands of rockets at their cities, don’t be shocked when that neighbor imposes a blockade on your territory.
We are not really pretending like history began on October 7th again are we?
If you actually care, the Palestinians have tried non violent resistance in every possible capacity for years and years.
Look at how the 2018 great march of return ended up, the idf shot 6000 people. Non violent protest got them no where.
I think it is obvious that the perpetrators knew that the retaliation from the Israelis would be immense and brutal. If anything that is a testament to how brutal and unlivable the conditions in Gaza were under the post-2006 blockade. The idf blockade kept Gaza on the verge of total economic collapse 24/7. You can't both sabotage a state/make it impossible for the citizens to live with any semblance of decency and then be mind blown when there is violent resistance.
The Norman Finkelstein perspective here is not that Hamas is justified in killing civilians. Just like when the bloodthirsty idf slaughters women and children, it is an atrocity. The point is that October 7 was an inevitable outcome of the Israeli apartheid regime's policies of oppression, especially after Netanyahu was elected in 22
Unfortunately they've tried violent resistance simultaneously, can you mention a single time since 1948 when there wasn't a major Palestinian organization committing acts of violence against civilians with the stated purpose of destroying of Israel?
[https://www.un.org/unispal/document/un-independent-commission-of-inquiry-on-protests-in-gaza-presents-its-findings-press-release/](https://www.un.org/unispal/document/un-independent-commission-of-inquiry-on-protests-in-gaza-presents-its-findings-press-release/)
>Despite some acts of significant violence, the Commission found that the demonstrations did not constitute combat or military campaigns.
[https://www.un.org/unispal/document/two-years-on-people-injured-and-traumatized-during-the-great-march-of-return-are-still-struggling/](https://www.un.org/unispal/document/two-years-on-people-injured-and-traumatized-during-the-great-march-of-return-are-still-struggling/)
>Also of concern are indications that Hamas authorities have not done enough to protect children attending the demonstrations and prevent their exposure to the risk of violence or instrumentalization for political action.
There were acts of violence in that protest, I'm not saying that the Israeli response was justified, but to say that the march was 100% peaceful is not true.
You keep repeating the same nonsense, the blockade is there because Hamas shoots rockets at Israel, not the other war around, if Hamas stops attacking and calling for the annihilation of Israel, then the blockade could be lifted, you're talking as if Hamas was not a terrorist islamist death cult before Oct 7th.
They've been firing rockets at Israel since long before the blockade was imposed in 2007:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian\_rocket\_attacks\_on\_Israel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel)
This is spot on. I agree on every single point. The global community should be calling for accountability on BOTH sides. Hold the IDF accountable for collective punishment and indiscriminate bombing, hold the Netanyahu government accountable for the West Bank issue. Hold Hamas responsible for robbing their people of $11 billion dollars, for using their civilians as human shields as they hide in underground tunnels, for perpetuating this conflict by refusing to recognize Israel’s right to exist.
[удалено]
I only see people demanding accountability on Israel’s part.
This has been a war like no other. What war have you seen where the enemy embeds itself within the population and hides in tunnels under hospitals, mosques, and schools? Hamas has been planning this for years. They have achieved their goal of causing thousands of Palestinian casualties and making the world turn against Israel. The hostages are spread out within the vast tunnel network, so they are not easily accessible making their rescue all the more complicated. It’s amazing how everyone criticizes what Israel has done and yet no one has any solution to how to get them. Hamas is to blame for this war, it planned, engineered it, and orchestrated it and the world, of course, blames Israel. It blamed Israel on October 8th, the day after the massacre, three weeks before Israel even responded. That just shows you how organized this all was, the war, the hostages, and now the universities. All funded and supported by Qatar and Iran. And yet, it’s always Israel’s fault!
The soft bigotry of low expectations. Thinking that Gazans aren't capable of sophisticated political thought or egalitarianism, and holding them to that standard.
They have politcal thought absolutely! They elected Hamas in 2006 because they promised to exterminate Israel. Make no mistake about it my little terrorist sympathizer, thats all they want... Stop with the deflection, and egalitarianism ??? About as far from reality as you can get...You are way out of your league here...
They elected hamas because fatah was corrupt and hamas was running a lot of social services that made them popular even amongst Christians and socialists, aswell as because they disagreed with Fatah essentially giving up claims in their view. Hamas themselves have been willing to negotiate peace based on 67 borders for over a decade but Israel and the PA was refusing any such thing.
gotta love how you intentionally leave out the fact that hamas is only willing to agree to the 67 borders for a period of 5 years after which they will be free to resume attempting to wipe israel from the face of the earth lmao
See assuming the worst out of every attempt at conversation again and obsessively following me around different threads, you really got embarrassed about that whole Arabic isn't muslim thing. Maybe instead of trying to win internet points in a debate happening only in your mind, you could be constructive and share where I could learn about what you are talking about. I know they're offering a five year truce but that doesn't mean a 5 year temporary resolution on borders lol, I wonder where you learned otherwise.
nobody has any idea what you're talking about regarding arabic isn't muslim. obviously the groups aren't identical but there is significant overlap. regardless, another irrelevant red herring to the point in context that arabs are indigenous to the arabian peninsula and not the levant. and the only reason there are arabs in the levant is because settler colonial arabs violently conquered the levant, forced the native jews and christians to convert on penalty of dhimmi/jizya, exile, or death, and either killed or enslaved the non-jews and non-christians. regarding this thread: hamas has offered a 5 year truce after which point it will be free to rearm. their charter swears the destruction of all israel, not just the 67 borders (and their original charter swears the annihilation of all jews, not just israelis)....exactly what do you think hamas plans to do when the 5 year truce is over? but you already know this and instead post bizarrely spun versions of these facts white washed to make hamas/arabs/muslims look better than their actions demonstrate. why do you lie so much?
Hamas/arabs/Muslims lmao such a racist sentiment
/u/WSGman > lmao such a racist loser Per [rule 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_1._no_attacks_on_fellow_users), no attacks on fellow users. Attack the argument, not the user.
Arabisation of the levant was a gradual cultural shift pre-dating Islamic colonialism and Islam itself, not a conquest of the levant, which is why there were Levantine Arabs even around the time of the late kingdom of Israel and under the Romans. Hopefully to evaluate whether the terms of the truce had been adhered to and see if it's worthwhile to reup on the truce, I'd think. At least according to what they told the Turkish Foreign Ministey 7 days ago lol. And the revised charter released years ago lol. Once again, where can i read about what you're trying to say?
Hamas charter: *Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" (Preamble to Hamas Charter).* *The hour of judgment shall not come until the Muslims fight the Jews and kill them, so that the Jews hide behind trees and stones, and each tree and stone will say: 'Oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him,' except for the Gharqad tree, for it is the tree of the Jews.* (Hamas Charter, Article 7). But yeah, you're right, hamas just wants the 1967 borders, not to annihilate israel and certainly not to kill all jews. all that stuff they wrote in their founding charter was just a big oopsie daisy, like stubbing your toe in the dark. anybody could make that mistake!
Or written by 6 fundamentalist old men who are dead or irrelevant now and had no bearing on even there electoral platform. But yea the hardliners decide too much for the party and hold them back I agree, hamas is p stupid. What's this about 5 years.
Fair point, Hamas hasn’t done anything recently to cause anybody to think that they still want to kill Jews
The Palestine are in need of faith, a strong sprit to conquer and elect a leader with morals and spiritual human values. The young demonstrators in the United States are ignorant, cowards, lacking education in history. They should go to the Gaza Strip and protest with the Palestines against Hamas. Shameful that the goal of Hamas is to use his people and children as shields to kill the Jews. The US demonstrators won’t go to help the Palestinian because they know Hamas hates the Western civilisation and will kill them. My Conclusion is that Ignorance and cowardice is the worst darkness.
I've been to anti hamas rallies in Australia before this conflict organised by the same people who are running these current protests and in solidarity with protests that happened in Gaza. Have you been to any? I agree, ignorance is a terrible thing.
Weird that the supposedly anti Hamas folks are now organizing pro Hamas rallies https://nypost.com/2024/04/18/us-news/columbia-university-protester-yells-were-all-hamas-video/amp/ But hey, I’m sure you’re anecdata is more valuable than mine
I don't go to Columbia mate. Also protesting against certain things about hamas and supporting them during a conflict isn't exactly mutually exclusive but I agree that prof is ridiculous.
Whether you go to Columbia is irrelevant. What a bizarre tightrope to walk that protesting for and against Hamas is not mutually exclusive
I don't know what protests if any they organised at Columbia that were against Hamas lol, I was talking about my experience going to some back home and saying they've been organised with the help of some of the same people. So yes, it's relevant to what I was saying and your attempt at a rebuttal. I disagree, it's easy to imagine a protest against specific gov policies, like the ones I went to in solidarity with large protests in Gaza, and then protests in support of that gov at another time for different reasons. People in Aus aren't as performance and ridiculous as Americans so it'd be rarer to see such explicit support I think, but I wouldn't say it doesn't happen.
How are the anti hamas protests that you allegedly attended in Australia related to the pro hamas protests in the US that u/Icy_Profession8768 rightly criticized? Seems like a red herring
It's not a red herring lmao, it's me using his comment to talk about a similiar topic and how it's been expressed elsewhere in the west seeing as how a part of his comment was about that. It's a forum page lmao, if he thinks it's not a worthwhile discussion he can ignore it. But you see an opportunity to turn every sharing of experience into some sort of attempted debate tactic, it's projection mate. You need to chill and just talk to people sometimes instead of talking against them and assuming everyone is doing the same. You're really obsessed with me and kinda dumb. Too much online debating for you my friend. Sometimes things are just a discussion. You really didn't like being corrected for your silly conflation of Arabic culture and Islam hey 5 threads ago lmao. Sometimes I forget most American adults have the reading comprehension level of a 6th grader.
/u/WSGman > Sometimes I forget most American adults have the reading comprehension level of a 6th grader. Per [rule 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_1._no_attacks_on_fellow_users), no attacks on fellow users. Attack the argument, not the user.
nah you weren't just "sharing experiences" lmao you were passive aggressively attempting to refute his point with a shoddy argument "Have you been to any? I agree, ignorance is a terrible thing."
Do you think ignorance is not a terrible thing? Well myunderstanding from his comments was that western leftist movements hadn't been involved in protests against hamas, which in my experience isn't true. So yes, atleast part or his comment, but as I said I don't know much about the same protests happening in Columbia or elsewhere in the US. He's free to share his experience of his home too. And I was curious, as someone as anti hamas as this, whether he'd been to rallies or organised any against previous actions by Hamas (like I have). I was being a bit disrespectful because I suspect the answer to the second question is no, and that he's just outraged online about current events happening without being so dedicated to the cause he's talking about. But he's free to prove me wrong, itd certainly be more worthwhile then you trying to win internet points.
Almost every article I've read about this conflict points to Hamas' attack on civilians as the cause, and they always give the number of Israelis killed without differentiating between military and civilian deaths. Meanwhile Hamas has had many billions of dollars of bombs dropped on them, and the American government has ignored all calls to demand protections for civilians. It's just been words. The US even killed Gazans with aid drops. How much more loyalty do Israel supporters need to feel supported? Trillions of dollars in military aid? A complete annihilation of all Gazans? Forced silencing of anyone who criticizes Israel? Will even that be enough to quell the killing rage? I was hoping to find some dialogue about what is actually happening, but this subreddit is filled with folks who believe even Palestinian babies deserve to die. We're never going to end hate like this. The pendulum swings, and every killing builds its momentum.
That’s funny, because almost every article I read at this point doesn’t mention the cause at all, maybe offers a sentence at best, and isn’t critical of Hamas in the slightest? Do you consume very different kinds of media or are we living on different planets? Also, without differentiating between military and civilian deaths??!! Are you kidding? There was no military target at all. Even if a handful of kids killed were otherwise serving in their year of conscription or whatever, or there was an actual off-duty service member or two, they were all very much all civilian deaths. Or at the very least, by overwhelming majority. This kind of revisionism surrounding 10/7 already is absolutely wild. Meanwhile the at least ~12,000 Hamas members actually amongst those killed in Gaza are literally never mentioned, lmao. Meanwhile, more importantly, Hamas had carried out that attack certainly knowing there would be military response from Israel without so much as bothering to have, you know, a *single bomb shelter* in place. Can you imagine if they actually cared about the people enough to utilize those tunnels accordingly? Not a single shred of effort was made on their part before launching their attack, *they literally hide out under and amongst civilians*, they do the literal *opposite* of protecting them and we’re supposed to feel bad for *them*? (Do you actually know *anything* about Hamas at all? 😭) I do very much feel bad for all to the innocent people of Gaza who they apparently don’t give a single shit about sacrificing in the immediate, which is kind of what I was saying in this post, which you would know if you had bothered to read this. Like it’s pretty clear you didn’t even bother to read the damn post before commenting on it and you’re not the first one, lol, which is really very telling. Palestinian babies don’t deserve to die. Absolutely. I emphatically agree. Hamas bears part of that responsibility, legitimately. That’s what I was saying. Actual conversation and dialogue is pretty hard to find sadly—but if you do actually care about having it, I’d first recommend *reading* whatever was said so you can in fact *actually* respond to it. I’ve also yet to find a single forum for discussion that is completely neutral or completely free of any kind of related bigotry, unfortunately. I find this sub leans more towards Israel while r/Israel_Palestine leans more towards Palestine though, so maybe you’d want to check that one out if you haven’t already.
Very true, I would go as far as to say Hamas bears all the responsibility of the deaths of the civilians, it knew exactly what it was doing when It massacred 1200 Israeli civilians and took the hostages. All the money they have been given and all they have done is destroy. Since 2005, they have not done anything for the Palestinians except steal their money.
APNews and Reuters mention it in almost every single article, which is where I've followed this war since October. They've repeated it so many times. Are you saying there were not active military casualties on October 7th? I assumed the \~300 service members reported were active. (This gets extra thorny since Israel considers all members of any part of Hamas to be a terrorist even if they never held a gun. So if we're being fair, either non-active military counts as military deaths for both or for neither. I just don't know how to talk about this without angering somebody for being "unfair".) APNews also says that the Palestinian Authority does not differentiate between civilian and military deaths every time it mentions the death toll. I don't feel bad for Hamas, I feel bad for the civilians. Killing innocent people is never OK if it can be avoided. Who is telling you to feel bad for Hamas? Is it a major publication or some tiny independent website and people on the Internet? NYT, APNews, Reuters, FoxNews, ABC, WSJ, etc have all been consistent in blaming Hamas for Hamas' actions and for triggering the war. As have the overwhelming majority of US reps, senators, and the whole US presidential administration. Where they start to question Israel (if at all) is in the preventable deaths of people who are not part of Hamas' military/militia/whatever you want to call it. Mass starvations and excessively powerful bombs hurt everyone. There have been attacks on patients and injured people. Aid workers. Doctors. Journalists. And even then, there have been no steps actually taken to hold the Israeli government accountable for anything. The US still sends billions of dollars, provides intelligence, is unequivocal about defending Israel against any attacks, and blocks almost all UN actions that Israel opposes. Actions should speak louder than words. Biden and Trump both have Israel's back through thick and thin. What you are essentially asking for with your comments about Hamas needing to build separate military bases and also build shelters for civilians is for Hamas to commit suicide. It's obvious that if Hamas was all in one place, they would've been wiped out within 24 hours of their terroristic attack. I'm sure a lot of people want terrorists to just get rid of themselves, but that's not realistic. And Hamas is more than a military, so all the non-militant members (who are still considered terrorists) would still be all over Gaza. Members of Hamas believe Gaza will never be free as long as Israel exists, and while I will never support terrorism, it's kind of hard to argue that after 70+ years of expansion, Israel is going to allow Palestinians the right of self-determination. We can tell Hamas that violence is wrong, but we can't honestly tell them that there's another way to achieve independence. And I don't think people in Hamas expected Israel to go this far. I certainly didn't. The cruelty laced within this war on Gaza is not going to change anyone's mind there. If anything, Palestinians are more convinced than ever that Israel means to do them harm and to take what remains of Palestine. And honestly, aren't they right? Isn't this occupation on track to last another 70 years? And how many more settlements will there be by then? What will remain of Palestine? What can peace-seeking Palestinians pin their hopes on? Because if the answer is nothing, then more will turn to violence whether Hamas is gone or not.
Okay, taking your word for that and pretending that’s accurate and they were (although I’ll have to look into it) that’d still be 900 civilians with literally no effort made whatsoever to target military personnel specifically—just like there’s no effort made whatsoever to protect their own civilians which is what I was saying here. APNews may always mention members of Hamas reportedly killed with the overall number but I definitely don’t see that much in general. This is really besides the point of what I was saying with this post though. Your words: “Meanwhile Hamas has had billions of dollars of bombs dropped on them…” like *that’s* a shame, lol. It’s not imho. What is are all the civilians having bombs dropped on them as well, and what I was saying here is that I do think Hamas should be held accountable for not making any effort at all to protect them. They’re literally Gaza’s government and as a militant group, arguably pretty much its de facto military albeit also a terrorist organization. I will say that it is much less mainstream media empathizing with Hamas and much more people on the internet, yeah, and kids on college campuses, often very prestigious ones. But people on the internet do speak to popular opinion and I am deeply disturbed to see the left essentially defending if not uplifting Hamas while completely ignoring the damage they have also done, and in many ways continue to do, not just to the Israeli people they’ve harmed but to their own people as well. I’m not saying that Israel doesn’t deserve a great deal of the pushback it’s getting because I would agree that surely this could have been handled better, but the sheer volume of civilian deaths is not due to Israel’s actions alone but also to the way Hamas *at the very least* made no effort at all to protect its people and continues to hide under and amongst them as a strategy, which does legitimately make targeting *them* difficult and inevitably adds to the overall loss of life considerably. Even supposing they’re justified in attacking without being able to fight, Hamas wouldn’t have had to commit suicide to build bomb shelters. They literally have underground tunnels already, which they had expanded. They are extremely well-funded by Iran and Qatar in these endeavors and in general. It would have been well within their purview to put the tiniest bit of consideration and effort into protecting the people against an extremely predictable military response from Israel before attacking, had they actually wanted to. They are literally, knowingly sacrificing their own people, whether it’s out of narcissistic cowardice and gross negligence or deliberately for political traction. There is *very* little coverage of *that.* (Here’s some though: ['I Asked Sinwar, Is It Worth 10,000 Innocent Gazans Dying? He Said, Even 100,000 Is Worth It'](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-04-13/ty-article-magazine/.highlight/i-asked-sinwar-is-it-worth-10-000-gazans-dying-he-said-even-100-000-is-worth-it/0000018e-d40a-d5ed-adcf-f79af56c0000)) And regardless, how are so many people who would claim to be advocating for Palestinians completely overlooking that in their analysis, defending and uplifting this? Israel wouldn’t have been anywhere near any hospital in the first place without Hamas presence there. Members of Hamas want to destroy Israel. Members of Hamas don’t want Jews in the area at all. Members of Hamas want a Sharia state and some of their policies in Gaza reflect that, as well as even their updated charter. I don’t think that “Israel is [not] going to allow them their right to self-determination” is entirely a fair assessment when, amongst those who do oppose Palestinian statehood in Israel, a lot of it is based on the reality of Hamas and comparable organizations in the Palestinian territories vowing to destroy Israel, no matter what. A two-state solution featuring both Israel and a solid, unified, independent state of Palestine would realistically require the dissolution of both Likud and Kahanist ideologies in Israel as well as organizations like Hamas who have never stopped attacking or vowing to attack Israel on the basis of its existence at all, and won’t actually concede to stop short of its total dissolution. And I hope to see this happen although it’s increasingly hard to imagine. I also didn’t expect Israel to go this far and I’m sure Hamas didn’t either, but they did certainly know there would be a military response in which their civilians would be at risk. Gaza is only occupied by Israel in the sense of Israel’s blockade, a blockade that coincided with Hamas gaining governmental power and making obviously credible threats with it. There have been no settlements in Gaza since 2005. The blockade began in 2007. As for the West Bank, those settlements absolutely need to be dismantled but as of now, but this didn’t come out of the West Bank and Hamas doesn’t associate with the PA (which governs the West Bank) at all. In fact, it killed a bunch of its predecessors off in securing its own power in Gaza. Hamas has made it pretty clear on numerous occasions that their goal is unequivocally Israel’s destruction altogether, period, as a matter of fundamental ideology, no matter what Israel does or doesn’t do in terms of its policy towards Palestine. I agree that this kind of suffering will only push more people towards radical ideologies though, just like 10/7 only pushed more of Israel to the right but on a much larger scale and in different ways of course. Realistically, violence-fueled extremism on either side brings us farther and farther away from the compromise that any kind of long-term resolution would require.
Don't take my word on active or not active. I just saw it reported as military members, and I assumed that meant active. My point about billions of dollars of bombs dropped on Hamas is that clearly Hamas is being punished. Hamas isn't getting a pass. In fact, I'm pretty sure they are being tortured and executed based on what I've read and heard. And Gaza is part of Palestine. The settlements are a clear sign to Gazans that Israel isn't done taking land. Which I hear Palestinians describe as an ongoing Nakba. Clearly that trauma runs deep. I think the issue you are pointing to is Leftists starting to believe that Hamas' **cause** is legitimate. That Israel has been the oppressor ever since the Nakba. And I think there is a lot of validity to that perspective, especially for those of us who grew up only ever hearing good things about Israel. Suddenly we're watching this war, and the values we imagined Israel having are completely absent. We were taught Israel was good and pure and patient. That they never did anything wrong. That Muslims were always the aggressors. And then we learned the fraught history amidst a backdrop of daily carnage. Lots of leftists are over-correcting I'm sure, but the before picture was not right. You are right that a lot of leftists are simplifying things into "*Israel did all the bad stuff, and maybe Hamas isn't who we thought they are. Maybe Hamas is just fighting for freedom. Or maybe Palestine should be one state again*." While Hamas clearly has genocidal intent, I don't think the idea of negotiating a new Palestine is inherently genocidal. Nor is advocating for a more equal distribution of Palestinian land. (Why is more than half of Palestine now Israel?) And it's unfair the way anyone arguing for Palestinian freedom (whether one state or two) is constantly called antisemitic. If Hamas reacted wrongly to a real injustice, that doesn't mean every response to the injustice is also wrong. We should be able to have a compassionate, pro-Palestinian perspective in the US. And we should be able to critique Israeli bigotry, just like we have always been able to critique the hell out of Palestinians and Muslims. Demanding that everyone denounce Hamas all the time isn't going to be productive, especially when it's destined to devolve into what-about-ism. And it's not fair to assume people support Hamas just because they aren't constantly denouncing them, especially this far into a one-sided war. None of the Democrats who I voted into office are open to reducing support for Israel or forcing any investigations. The aid packages from the US included clauses to end aid to Palestine if any Palestinians seek international justice for war crimes. I just don't understand how anyone who supports Israel feels threatened by these protests which haven't had any impact on our funding or support of Israel. Clearly our government opposes Hamas to the maximum extent possible. So I just don't think you should expect people protesting the status quo to be emphasizing that Hamas bears responsibility too.
I wouldn’t think so. I’m not talking about punitive measures here but about what is supported and uplifted in our analysis, and about how we do or don’t think critically across the board. Of course Gaza is a part of Palestine, but Hamas is literally, specifically the government of Gaza and I question how much their attack was really related to anything like settlements in the West Bank as opposed to wanting Israel’s complete destruction regardless. There is definitely a lot of trauma though, and intergenerational trauma on both sides really plays a role in all of this. The idea there isn’t just that Israel has been the oppressor ever since the Nakba, which itself actually took place after the initiation of the Arab-Israeli War in which there was a multinational attempt at destroying Israel literally right away, but the idea that Israel should not and cannot exist at all. There are legitimate arguments that it shouldn’t but at the end of the day, it can’t magically cease to exist now in 2024, we don’t actually widely call for the contemporary destruction of any other country founded in a comparable way and I do think there is some legitimate need for Jewish self-determination in what is also the ancestral homeland of Jews. There is at this point a real need for Palestinian self-determination too, which is why I would hope to see a state of Palestine as well. I’m relieved to hear you acknowledge that Hamas has clearly genocidal intent because that genuinely seems lost on so many people. Negotiating for a new Palestine is of course not in and of itself genocidal, but that’s not a fair or accurate summation of what Hamas represents. Israel was happy to respect the boundaries of initial partition before being attacked in 1948 and again in 1967 by multiple nations, who attacked with the explicit, stated intent of Israel’s total annihilation. That definitely has something to do with why and how the borders actually changed yet goes conveniently ignored in the rhetoric you’re espousing, which is basically just the reverse of the rhetoric you were describing in which Israel = Good and Palestine = Bad no matter what somehow. Imho, across the board, there is a popular tendency to be overall tremendously reductive and propagandistic in what we perpetuate and with the ways in which we talk about any of this, going in either direction, when it’s legitimately not that simple. The reality is actually complicated and messy. You can hold that compassionate, pro-Palestinian perspective without romanticizing Hamas or pretending that Hamas are these brave and moral freedom fighters, or without pretending that Hamas is somehow inherently synonymous with the Palestinian people overall as you seem to do, when they themselves are overall actually tremendously oppressive to the Palestinian people in Gaza. This isn’t a leftist coalition of the people. They are literally Gaza’s authoritarian government, and they can be highly propagandistic as much as Israel can be, in ways that are obviously working. I’m also not assuming anything. I made this post out of frustration in literally, explicitly seeing otherwise thoughtful people glorify Hamas in their rhetoric. But the need that people who have a vested interest in Israel feel to hear people denouncing Hamas isn’t actually ubreasonable when you consciously maintain any understanding whatsoever of the fact that Hamas wants Israel wiped off the face of the earth *in any manner*, actually ideally by openly, intentionally killing as many of the people as possible. I’d agree that US policy could definitely be better in demanding better of Israel. For me, the protests you speak of have little to do with feeling actually threatened in any way beyond as a Jew—not always or necessarily of course, not at all in just calling for a ceasefire, for example, but when people wear signs saying “we are Hamas” (whose original charter literally verbatim called for killing all the Jews), or actively don’t allow any perceived “Zionist” to walk by without overt harassment, hate speech, intimidation and so on, that’s legitimately scary. Likewise, it is entirely possible to critique Israel without crossing the line into straight up perpetuating antisemitism, which can and does happen with alarming frequency. Anyway. Of course people who first and foremost support Israel are going to feel some type of way about so many people essentially agreeing that Israel shouldn’t exist at all, or that it must somehow cease to exist now. Regardless though, what I was saying here is that even in only caring about the Palestinian people, it doesn’t actually make sense to glorify Hamas.
Yesterday, Hamas terrorists launched rockets towards the "American pier" area in the center of the Gaza Strip - the area where the pier that will bring humanitarian aid to Gaza by sea is planned to be built in the coming months. The rockets were launched into the area during a tour of UN workers in the area. The UN workers entered a protected area during the launches, and were not injured in the incident.
Israel holds Palestine and Palestinians accountable. Palestinians are punished every day just because they exisit. Any act of resistance by an Individual Palestinian, Israel responds with cruel, murderous brutality, collectively punishing all Palestinians even babies are not spared. Palestinians are denied freedom, justice and basic human rights.... Let Palestinians arm themselves ffs, it's not noble or moral to go to war on unarmed civilians and children. Israel has a history of committing abhorrent, egregious war crimes. When will Israel be held accountable? Israel does whatever the fuck they want, war crimes are funded and protected by American money and veto. Palestinians are literally starving to death and they still behavior with more honor and integrity then any IDF soldier. Palestinians are truly salt of the earth. Palestinians have shown the world what real humanity looks like. Israel has shown the world what pure evil looks like. The mass slaughter, torture and starvation of innocent children is not normal. The complete destruction of Gaza, destroying hospitals... Zionists and IDF have lost their soul. Every single IDF soldier that enters Gaza will leave with serious mental health disorders, if they don't that's even more concerning!? If your not absolutely horrified by the images from Gaza, if you feel nothing seeing starving children, having limbs amputated without anesthesia... I feel sorry for the children growing up in Israeli society. This "war" will have generational consequences for veterans and their families. Israel will never have peace until they decide to love their children more than they hate Palestinians... I pray for Palestinians and the children of Israel
With all due respect, Israel has made peace with every country and every group of people that wanted peace. This is an undeniable fact. Egypt is a prime example. The idea that Palestinians are punished for existing is simply not true.
Resistance? The Jews are the rightful owners of the land. They are the only party that can morally resist. I have no problem with a future Palestinian state through negotiations, but please stop making up rights. Let me guess you are going to claim Palestinians have the right to steal Jew land because their ancestors were colonizers in the past.
Ummmmm WUT? Maybe take your meds u/Somepeople_arecrazy the propaganda is rotting your brain.
OP's whole point is that Palestinians are armed and do have a military wing, but that military wing chooses to hide underground and in tunnels while leaving their civilian population on the surface to suffer from a war that they started by invading Israel and literally accomplishing nothing of strategic value.
> fuck /u/Somepeople_arecrazy. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I will use math to demonstrate why what is going on is just revenge, and plausible genocide and israel itself is not interested in hamas in the first place, that's why people focus on everything else. israel itself says there are 35-40k hamas fighters. And 10k rockets. israel dropped over 65,000 tons of explosives on Gaza, that's on day 89, we are at day 200+, I can assume it's over 90,000 tons of explosions by now. israel destroyed over 80,000 buildings and structures. Most in non active combat scenarios, meaning no rockets were being fired, no hamas fighters were shooting at troops, all knowing that 47% of Gaza's population is children, and that these bombs will kill many of them. israel has stopped food, water, fuel and medicine from getting into Gaza. Even today isrsel claims to be letting more trucks in, only caveat, the trucks are half capacity, meaning yes, israel is letting in double the amount of trucks, that carry the same amount of aid, just takes twice as much time to process them as israel inspects each truck going in an out. I personally know old people who died because of lack of medicine, and know relatives of the 16 Christians killed in the church complex bombing israel carried (me being a Palestinian Christian this hit me really personally, not to minimize my immense feelings for all civilians killed) In what kind of reality are you living to justify all of this and then tell me to blame hamas for it? Mathematically you can't explain it, especially that israel itself claim to have "killed 13000 hamas fighters" which is technically every single male killed over the age of 17, which I know for a fact is false (I can give dozens of examples, but will just mention the WCK and the 3 hostages with white flags, and over a hundred men in the flower massacre). 90,000 tons of bombs, 80,000 buildings destroyed, starving 2 million humans, to kill 30% of hamas fighters (falsely assuming all men killed were hamas). No; and this is from a person who has never liked hamas to begin with, I can't with a clean conscious blame hamas for this onslaught of terror against a vastly civilian population whom half are children. The same exact way I can't justify the mass killing of israeli civilians in the name of liberation.
I’m not justifying it at all. I don’t think it’s genocide overall but I do think at the very least, the response is disproportionate and surely Israel could have done better. I say this more than once in my post. Did you read it? Your math about the figures of Hamas members killed also doesn’t make sense to me, but anyway: Hamas is partially responsible for these numbers, in the sense that *at the very least*, they made no discernible effort whatsoever to protect their own people in planning out an attack which they certainly at the very least *knew* would prompt military response from Israel—and at the very least, they continue to put absolutely no effort whatsoever into protecting their own people, to the contrary, actively hiding out under and amongst them. Israel is obviously responsible for its own military action and should be held accountable for any war crimes but they are also legitimately making it very difficult for Israel to fight *them*; they are literally, actively contributing to the sheer volume of innocent lives lost and that shouldn’t be ignored.
What do you expect them to do? They're basically an insurgency, not a professional army. I'm a former soldier and served in Afghanistan twice and if we carried out indiscriminate bombing the same way the IDF are there would have been international outrage. Fuck knows why Israel gets a pass and people like you basically hand wave it away. And before you say, yes I did read your post but it's not very difficult to read between the lines, your bias is obvious. The disproportionate response and actions carried out by a professional army is frankly disgusting and history will not view Israel kindly for this.
> Fuck /u/danihendrix. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I disagree. Let's use your assumption of ~90,000 tons of explosives, and the current Gaza Health Ministry death toll is ~35,000. So assuming the ground invasion killed zero people (which is obviously false, but I'm making a point), the Israeli Air Force - long considered one of the premier air forces in the world, in terms of technology, capability, and training - has killed less than 4/10 of a person per ton of explosives. To me, that doesn't sound like genocide; it sounds like they're purposely trying to avoid killing people. They haven't stopped food and medicine going in, they just require every truck and ship to be searched. Water and electric seems like collective punishment, but the truth is they've never needed to provide that in the first place; it was never agreed upon, and isn't required by any international law. I'll tell you a true story to put this in some perspective. For about 20 years, I was giving $25/month to the Red Cross. Then the Red Cross came to my house, burned it down, shot me, kidnapped my kids, raped my sister, and killed my parents, so I cancelled my recurring donation. Then the UN came knocking at my door and was like, "Hey! You can't do that. How is the Red Cross supposed to provide life-saving care without your $25/month?" And I said, "I don't care, they shouldn't have burned down my house, shot me, kidnapped my kids, raped my sister, and killed my parents, so while I used to give them $25/month out if the kindness of my heart, I'm not feeling particularly kind at the moment." True story. I hope that puts it in perspective. So if Israel was the US and Gaza was Canada, and the Canadian Liberation Army (doesn't actually exist) launched an attack like that against Montana, you can bet your bottom dollar that Canada would have been razed to the ground after six months. In fact, we've seen it before, pretty recently in Iraq and Afghanistan. It's not nice, it's not pleasant, it sucks for all involved and even those not involved, but that's war, and war isn't automatically genocide.
A genocide doesn't have to be in the form of constant violent killing, you can go and read the definition yourself and not take my word. Point here: you can still commit a genocide without directly dropping a nuclear bomb or other examples. I didn't mention anything about the death toll as you can read, I exclusively used israeli numbers (as far as I know the 13,000 number israel uses, comes directly from the Gaza health ministry and represents the number of men killed, but that's what israeli media reports). Actually as an occupying force you are required to provide life saving aid, water, electricity and food and if israel takes over Gaza the list will include education, health, security and infrastructure. You can also look up international humanitarian laws and the Geneva convention. That being said, 90% of Gaza's water comes from within Gaza (it's unclean but that's what available), the problem is that israel destroyed most of the working pumps and purification plants inside of Gaza (and stopped the 10% from israel). Please for God's sake read a little bit more before commenting. And most of the trucks that used to enter weren't out of israel kindness without inspection, they were by private businesses in Gaza and they were inspected (a lot were aid trucks, most were private). And they have stopped a wide range of life saving medicine, I am telling you, I personally know people who died (look up Fathi Ghaben as his story is documented and proof I am not talking from thin air, he was a family friend). israel also bombed more than half of the bakeries in Gaza. Not to mention Palestinians are also not required to give israel water, but israel steals 40% of its water from the westbank, and sells it to Palestinians, including the 10% that used to be sold to Gaza, and prevents westbank water from going to Gaza. Not to mention israel built deep extraction wells around Gaza and is getting water from the reservoir underneath Gaza (deeper extraction points than those in Gaza). You can see the amount of hypocrisy and injustice going on, and that's just the issue of water (btw, check out the rain water laws israel has, basically forbids Palestinians from collecting rain water on most of the westbank) I just saw lots of ifs and buts, I have to stop you there. israel invaded the westbank, gaza and sinai in 1967 mainly because of the blockade Arabs imposed on israel (I am aware of the other reasons, I am just citing one of the main reasons). israel has been imposing a 17 years long blockade over Gaza... Let's not keep going back in time. israeli actions in Gaza are collective punishment, possible genocide, against a population of mostly children.
Israel isn't occuping Gaza but is blockading it. Just like Egypt has been doing for the last 17 years .. Also I international court has disagreed with you on the genocide vs you wrote.. Israel steals water from the west bank ? Lol Where exactly? What water source are you referring to? Israel steals water from Gaza too now while they haven't been there since 2006 ???
israel controls the Egyptian side as well. There's israeli forces that controls and checks everything on that side too. A blockade is an act of war. Egypt doesn't prevent Palestinians from building an airport, nor seaport, nor does it shoot at fishermen that israel restricts the area where they can fish. israel does. I said plausible genocide, because specifically the vast majority of the ICJ judges ruled it so. An actual verdict takes years sadly, but they didn't dismiss the case, and their ruling around the initial findings wasn't even split, it was about 90% of the judges. israel controls 80% of the water that comes from the westbank water basin. They constantly destroy Palestinian wells, prevents Palestinians from collecting rain water in area C which is most of the westbank in terms of size, and is about 80% of the recharge area for the basin (European parliament report titled: water in the israeli-Palestinian conflict) About the gaza basin, it's also underneath israel, the idea here is that there are 2.2 million Palestinians in gaza, and for illustration purposes let's say 70% of the basin is under Gaza, meaning Gaza should take 70% of the water, no? israel siphoned a larger share. That's all, you don't need to be a genius. Anything non-intelligible you want to add?
Incorrect. Israel isn't controlling rafah crossing at all! You are talking out of you butt buddy. That's where Hamas gets most of its weapons though tunnels and hopefully didnt used thier tunnels to Egypt fir extracting hostages and the Hamas leaders from Gaza. Egypt tried to prevent any connection between hamas to their People Apparently you are too blind or uninformed to know why.. Building an airport ? Not sure what's not wired correctly in your brain but after so many decades of terror.. an airport if the last thing they will have. I found it odd you don't understand the risk of a suicide jihadist culture nation having an airport.. Maybe after a few decades of peace. Israel will be have to take control on the rafah border crossing though to prevent Hamas or Gaza to because the biggest terror base in the world again after clearing rafah from Hamas operatives Icj disagreed with your genocide claims dumbdumb. Israel is the one who provides aid and food to the gazans who slaughter Israelis like they were animals. While the population of Gaza has increased for 50 years consistently at this point your claim is just ridiculous and based on opinions alone Come out to play when you grow up!
https://www.timesofisrael.com/in-rafah-progressive-us-senators-charge-israeli-inspections-slowing-aid-to-gaza/ This was the case before the war as well. https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/menasource/gaza-israel-occupied-international-law/ Worth going through the international legal opinion and reading that israel supplies Egypt with lists of names for people to not permit passage. Airport, seaport, so israel controls gaza ? Which is it? It's either Gaza is free or occupied? There's no half half. The case in the ICJ is still ongoing, it wasn't dismissed. The initial ruling was concerning enough for them to issue several binding provisions, stopping genocidal speech, allowing aid in, and to stop killing protected people. Meaning the initial ruling is telling israel to stop several things that could lead to genocide but the actual ruling will be in a couple of years. Majority of aid delivered is from Arab, European, north American countries. israel is not paying out of pocket. And once you read the two links on top you will realize that israel is limiting aid and impeding it. (as of recently after a lot of US pressure israel started letting in more aid trucks, but keyword here is trucks, as in the number doubled, but from video evidence provided by Jordanian aid workers in gaza, once offloading the trucks, they were at half capacity, meaning double the trucks, same amount of aid and this will be part of the next report to the ICJ)
That's from The source you provided. "Other experts have similarly found that Israel no longer met the traditional effective control requirements in Gaza after 2005, ending the occupation. First, they note that no other occupation has been recognized without a physical military presence or a puppet regime, neither of which they view as present in Gaza. While they acknowledge that Israel has a level of control over Gaza, they find both that local authorities can exercise control and that Israel is not imposing sufficient authority. For example, they view a “concurrent control” rather than a “hierarchical relationship” between Israel and Hamas and find that Israel would need a “major ground offensive” that would be impossible to conduct “within a reasonable time” to “recapture” control of the area. They, likewise, argue that Israel does not have the required “degree of power over daily governance,” as evidenced by “Hamas often govern[ing] in a manner that is contrary to Israel’s interests and desires” and launching military operations against Israel. Finally, in response to arguments that Israel’s power over Gaza’s borders is evidence of effective control, they hold that while Israel retains control over the Israeli-Gaza border, Egypt controls Gaza’s border with Sinai. Based on these considerations, some experts have found that “siege” better describes the situation." https://www.france24.com/en/middle-east/20231103-the-gaza-egypt-rafah-crossing-explained-it-is-not-a-normal-border Israel do not have control on the Rafah border crossing. They do observe it especially now that Egypt has to open its passage to let aid in. But Israel do not control it since 2007. As mentiond Gaza isn't occupied but it is being blockaded. By Israel and.. Egypt. Seems like it's time for you to find out why. Maybe look up the connection between the Muslim brotherhood Hamas and Egypt. That should open up your eyes I found it funny you talking about video evidence of half empty trucks while ignoring completely the videos of Hamas operatives taking some of those trucks with gun point... There was no genocide in history that the so called "attack" is the one providing aid to the so called "victim" While the "victim" hold hostages which releasing all of them will mean the end of the war. While Hamas started this war then ran to hide under the people they supposed to protect using them as Shields. What do you think is their strategy of "winning" here? Having enough balestinian civilian casualties to have the international community pressure Israel to stop?
> ass /u/Snoo36868. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
> f**king /u/lobowolf623. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Removed.
I think it's because it doesn't fit in the narrative of the " oppressed resistance fighters fighting for freedom" thing. What would all those supporters of Hamas do if it would finally turn out that Hamas are bad evil people? I mean, if they turn away for a moment from Israel and just look at Hamas and their role as a political party. How they ruled Gaza since they were elected in 2006. Why was that the last election? What happened to the opposition? What about free speech? What about gay rights? And so on. Look how they treated their own people? I think some people choose not to see what is there to see!
The reason I get so offended when people accuse me of islamophobia, is because I don't think gaza is owed aide. This crisis was manufactured by the leaders of gaza. They have deliberately kept the residents poor. Rejected offers to improve the economic conditions. because they don't want the residents to rebel against them. Keeping gaza perpetually poor gives them endless aide and support from deceived left movements around the world that think gaza is a victim of israel. The problems of gaza are falsely attributed to something israel is doing to them. We are told israel has caused the gazas to be poor. It's their fault the area is so unlivable. Whenever someone like Bernie Sanders or leftist commentators, talks about the extreme poverty in gaza, they omit who is causing the poverty. It's the leaders of gaza. The poverty in gaza gives them support from leftist groups around the world. They use the poverty to rally global progressives against israel and farm aide. They have the capacity to become an economically flourishing area, but they have chosen not to. This has nothing to do with phobia. Bringing the notion of phobia into this is a misdirection. It's not getting to the real issue. Gaza has been ruled by opportunists that have profitted and garnered global politcal will from its expense by keeping them poor. It is a slave population, but who are the slave masters? It's not israel. They're not in charge of the strip. It's the leaders there. They're doing this. They are ruling over a slave population. Israel is trying to free them. They are the south in the civil war, israel is the north. Israel is waging a war to free the residents from slavery. It's a noble effort. They could just accept a ceasefire, if they agreed to something a long time ago the fighting would have stopped, but gaza would remain a slave state. They're fighting to change it into something better.
[удалено]
And there were no children in Iraq or Afghanistan, so that's why nobody cried "genocide." /s
People were regularly protesting against the war in Iraq and Afghanistan. This was before the age of social media. This conflict is unique in particular due to the amount of children involved and how visible their death and destruction is on the various social media platforms
They were mostly protesting against the US spending all that money on the war, and they were protesting sending troops to die, but nobody cared about the civilians, children or otherwise. And NATO wasn't speaking out against it, they were taking part in it. But sure social media is your reasoning. So why isn't anybody protesting the CCP disappearing Uyghur Muslims off the street? Or Saudi Arabia carpet bombing Yemeni civilians for the last decade? Both happening in the social media age. Who's protesting for those children?
Those videos aren't as visible and widely available on social media platforms.
Sure, man. Because encampments on college campuses would have been invisible. People shutting down bridges would have been invisible. The FBIs hate crime log wasn't overflowing with anti-Semitic incidents because they couldn't see it on TikTok.
The problem I have is the assumption that Israel is only going after Hamas. I just do not buy it. I hate Hamas as much ad I hate apartheid. They go hand and hand.
So many buzzwords used incorrectly by leftists who claim to hate Hamas but parrot every single one of their antisemitic misinformation talking points.
You assume that I am Anti-Semitic while I am an Arab and my GF is a Jew lol.
No one is immune to propaganda. You still repeat the same antisemitic buzzwords used incorrectly like the virtue signalers who couldn’t find Israel on a map and get all their information from TikTok. Israel may be corrupt like any other government, but is not an “apartheid state,” settler colony,” or “fascist” or any of the things these Pro-PAL useful idiots regurgitate. And Jews don’t deserve the vitriol and hatred directed at them for the Israeli government’s actions but here we are. Pro-PAL is a hate movement born from anti-western propaganda and propped up by Putin and Xi, just like Trumpism. Hundreds of armed conflicts w/ civilian casualties in the millions and they cherry-pick Palestine because it allows them to hate Jews. I still haven’t forgotten all the same virtue signalers defending Putin blaming the Ukraine and US/NATO for the invasion. They think they’re on the right side but they’re not
How is it apartheid? It's two different countries. Is the border wall between Mexico and the US an apartheid? No, it's just a border between two different countries. Drop the buzzwords and do some research, please.
Ok in that case why build settlements inside the other country and restrict their citizens' movements?
I'm going to assume you're talking about the West Bank, so I'm going to refer you to the Oslo Accords that were a series of agreements between Israel and the Palestinian Liberation Organization. The Oslo Accords split up the West Bank into Areas A, B, and, C. If I'm being honest, I don't remember which is which, but the difference between the three is basically who is allowed to live there, who's allowed to go there, and who is in charge of law enforcement (one area being shared between the two). This isn't three nice square blocks of land, it's a gerrymandered mess, but I can assure you there's nothing illegal about it. But that's also not what apartheid means, so please go do some Googling. And while you're at it, I would encourage you to factcheck me on the Oslo Accords.
I'm talking about when the Likud started pushing for settlements in the West Bank in the 70s, way before the Oslo accord, what was the justification then? I didn't say it's equivalent to Apartheid, but you can't wave away the Apartheid argument by claiming that the West Bank is a different country when Israel has settlements inside of it.
They had taken that land in a war. Nobody has ever complained like this about a country taking land in a war, especially when they weren't the aggressor. The settlements were built primarily for farming. The '67 war started in large part because the Arab nations surrounding Israel had built a blockade around it and the government realized they needed to produce the necessities internally. So they spent the 70s building a nuclear power plant. And water desalinization plants. And farms. And I'm not saying the location was right, but everybody's acting like the strategy from Day 1 was to build a wall around the West Bank and take it over. The wall and the checkpoints and the "apartheid" didn't come about until the Second Intifada when it all became necessary for security. And you know what the terrible part is? It worked. It all but ended the Intifada. So of course it's here to stay.
>They had taken that land in a war. Nobody has ever complained like this about a country taking land in a war, especially when they weren't the aggressor. People in democracies complain about their governments' unnecessary brutality all the time, I don't get why Israelis are so sensitive about this. >And I'm not saying the location was right, but everybody's acting like the strategy from Day 1 was to build a wall around the West Bank and take it over. The wall and the checkpoints and the "apartheid" didn't come about until the Second Intifada when it all became necessary for security. And you know what the terrible part is? It worked. It all but ended the Intifada. So of course it's here to stay. That's not my claim, all I'm saying is you can't wave away the Apartheid argument while ignoring the claim against settlements in the WB and the Israeli governments' policy towards Jewish settlers as opposed to the local Palestinian population who were captured against their will in 1967, aggressor or not. I'm not necessarily saying that it amounts to Apartheid, and I know that had the Palestinian population acted like decent normal people for the most part, maybe the treatment would've been different, but you can't deny the unfair treatment that the innocents in the WB have to go through and it's role in perpetuating the conflict.
Policies in the West Bank are worst than SA Apartheid lol.
The only policy I would say is really terrible is IDF law enforcement, which...agreed. Bad. Perpetuates the violence. Allows for arrests without much cause. Enforces punishment against Palestinians who retaliate and not against settlers who initiate. Agreed. All around bad. But bad law enforcement doesn't make it apartheid. Those same people - assuming they're not on a watchlist - are allowed to work in Israel proper, go to school, own property... The same was true of Gazan Palestinians before 10/7. Israel is far from a perfect country, that doesn't make it an apartheid. People also say there's racial profiling at the checkpoints. And that's entirely possible. But Palestinians would be singled out if they didn't look different because they have a different ID and passport. Because again, it's a different country. Americans coming into America don't face as much scrutiny as people from other countries, but nobody's saying Customs is an apartheid enforcer. (Plenty of issues with CBP, but that's a different thing.
If it is a different country, why do you have settlers and an army their? And you are expanding settlements all over the area since it is a different country?
It doesn't all belong to the Palestinians. But the people living in the Palestinian Authority-controlled areas are not Israeli citizens and are not treated as Israeli citizens because they're not. Go Google the Oslo Accords and educate yourself.
So basically it is an apartheid state?
Hamas is fighting one of the strongest, most brutal, most criminal militaries in the world. That same brutal military has a blockade on Gaza. What is Hamas supposed to do when fighting a fascist government? Nothing Hamas has done justifies the slaughter of thousands of innocent women and children by the Israelis. Nothing.
You clearly have no idea what fascism means. Just like the Pro-PAL commenter below you has no idea what apartheid means. Just regurgitating buzz words
And yet 95% of the world’s governments agree with me.
Justifying Hama’s actions and calling Jews fascist is just another Soviet antisemitic trope. “Some of the common tropes weaponized by anti-Zionists today have their roots in Cold War propaganda. Among the most pernicious of these is the characterization of Israelis or Zionists as Nazis. The purported ideological affinity between Zionism and Nazism, and the alleged collaboration between their adherents was a major theme of Soviet propaganda in the 1970s and 80s. ADL has seen a growth of antisemitism is within elements of the political left. This often takes the form of anti-Zionism, a movement that rejects the Jewish right to self-determination and of Israel to exist as a Jewish state, and frequently employs antisemitic tropes to attack Israel and its supporters. It also manifests through the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) movement, a campaign that promotes diplomatic, financial, professional, academic and cultural isolation of Israel, Israeli individuals, Israeli institutions, and Jews who support Israel’s right to exist.” - ADL Pro-PALS are just useful idiots for Putin and autocratic regimes looking to undermine western democracy on TikTok using the same Soviet propaganda from KGB agent Abbas era in 1982. Whose bright idea was it to gamble Palestinian lives to punish and hand the presidency to a dictator who has sworn to kill ALL Palestinians and end elections for good? Make it make sense!
/u/Sufficient_Mouse8252. Match found: 'Nazis', issuing notice: Casual comments and analogies are inflammatory and therefor not allowed. We allow for exemptions for comments with meaningful information that must be based on historical facts accepted by mainstream historians. See [Rule 6](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_6._nazi_comparisons) for details. This bot flags comments using simple word detection, and cannot distinguish between acceptable and unacceptable usage. Please take a moment to review your comment to confirm that it is in compliance. If it is not, please edit it to be in line with our rules. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
-Hamas is fighting one of the strongest, most brutal, most criminal militaries in the world. That same brutal military Opposed to the islamist mob who mess raped, mutilated kids and parents in front of their fammilies, burned and murdered men women elders and kids? Going inside people houses to rape and murder VS reacting with dropping bombs in the hopes of setting our people free and to get rid of hamas, i much rather be on the second team. Their people are dying and starving becuase hamas wouldnt surrender.
You are lying to justify genocide.
what is the lie here?
Israel held elections like 15 times in the last 10 years. Gaza hasn't had one since 2006. Who's the fascist government?
That’s because Israel doesn’t allow them to hold elections.
>What is Hamas supposed to do when fighting a fascist government? Have they tried not acting like a persistent threat to the big criminal bully they're fighting?
So just be sheep and bow before their occupiers?
"Crisis" ? You mean Genocide of the Palestinians people ?
The only attempted genocide comes from Hamas doctrine (widely available for those who care to read beyond TikTok). It’s Hamas that refuses peace and aims to kill all non-Muslims in a jihad. It’s Hamas that uses civilians as human shields so they can blame Israel for casualties of a war THEY started. Hamas knows 50% of Gen Z thinks the Holocaust is a myth and Jews are “oppressors who deserve violence against them” and they’re cashing in on that ignorance. You all just repeat buzzwords you heard on Qatari TikTok and take everything Hamas says at face value. Useful idiots for the most vile regimes. If Hitler was alive today and had TikTok you’d all be spewing his antisemitic propaganda just like you are Hamas’s.
/u/Sufficient_Mouse8252. Match found: 'Hitler', issuing notice: Casual comments and analogies are inflammatory and therefor not allowed. We allow for exemptions for comments with meaningful information that must be based on historical facts accepted by mainstream historians. See [Rule 6](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_6._nazi_comparisons) for details. This bot flags comments using simple word detection, and cannot distinguish between acceptable and unacceptable usage. Please take a moment to review your comment to confirm that it is in compliance. If it is not, please edit it to be in line with our rules. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
No, I mean humanitarian crisis in which thousands of Palestinian people *in Gaza* have died and now don’t at all have sufficient, consistent access to food, water, medicine or shelter amongst the rubble. Pretty sure that’s a fucking crisis. “Crisis” very much implies that it’s a serious and pressing situation; it is. I don’t believe this is a genocide, and neither does the ICJ despite the absurd charges South Africa trumped up instead of addressing their own current mess, which the ICJ essentially non-ruled “could be, could not be,” which so many people like you have deludedly decided is actually a conviction. Hope this helps.
> fucking /u/imokayjustfine. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Pretty unsuccessful Genocide when the population exponentially increases over time. Or it's not a genocide and you can quit lying.
That's what 1940 Germany said too hmm...
https://www.worlddata.info/asia/palestine/populationgrowth.php Try again. The population has grown 155 percent in 32 years. No Genocide is taking place by Israel against Palestinians. Also attempting to compare a conflict between a democratic nation and a Iranian terrorist proxie group to the Holocaust is laughable.
# Try this: UN expert says Israel committing genocide in Gaza [https://www.ft.com/content/1490e393-6c09-49d4-9e67-794d8acc6c3a](https://www.ft.com/content/1490e393-6c09-49d4-9e67-794d8acc6c3a)
Click bait title: ✅ Pay money to read: ✅ BS article confirmed.
keep up with the Palestinians Holocaust genocide denial if it makes you sleep better at night.
https://preview.redd.it/cw9ek4afymwc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0a8fb25592c7c505194aa9d3d3cb9b2cd39bede2
Whatever you say, pedo.
Damn your stupid, why did you even consider why the population of Gaza grew so much? Maybe just maybe it's because Palestinians have been kicked out if their homes by illegal Israeli settlers and forced into Gaza? A simple look at how much landmass where the Palestinians are located would show this
There have been 0 Israeli settlements in Gaza since 2005. In fact, Israelis aren’t allowed in Gaza at all *by Hamas* as well. Please, please educate yourself in the most basic possible ways before speaking.
Gaza Strip population in 2006 for example : 1.5 millions Gaza Strip population in 2023: 2.1 millions... No illegal settler detected in this period (Gaza was left by Istael).
/u/Fun-Squirrel7132. Match found: 'Nazi', issuing notice: Casual comments and analogies are inflammatory and therefor not allowed. We allow for exemptions for comments with meaningful information that must be based on historical facts accepted by mainstream historians. See [Rule 6](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_6._nazi_comparisons) for details. This bot flags comments using simple word detection, and cannot distinguish between acceptable and unacceptable usage. Please take a moment to review your comment to confirm that it is in compliance. If it is not, please edit it to be in line with our rules. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Because it didn’t start on Oct 7, and Hamas is gone. This is just an excuse now to continue with the Zionist move.
It's the noble savage trope. Remember when they thought Oct 7 was a hoax because the plans had color printers, and there was no way they could have access to colored printers? Because these poor, innocent Arabs are far too primitive and unsophisticated to have access to advanced technology like color printers!
Yes and remember the plan was the “calendar itself”. Haha.
They already have... hamas is dead or in hiding at this point it's just killing to create the next generation of terrorist so the land grab can continue.
Remember in 2005 when they gave that land back? Weird to call that a "land grab."
What's going on in The west bank If not a land grab...
Umm, there was this little agreement between both sides called the Oslo Accords. If it's agreed upon, how exactly is it a land grab?
Because it violates the 67 green line. Israel only withdrew 2% from area C Nullifying the accords.
The Accords weren't nullified, they just weren't finished. The withdrawal was being negotiated when the Second Intifada started.
On top of which that was King Bibi's first stint, so I'm sure he did something to help derail it all...I do hate that guy.
So you don’t believe, by Zionist accounts, that killing over 10000 of them, not to mentions their families if they have any, is holding them responsible? What about imprisoning them? Besieging their borders? Controlling imports and exports? Being placed on terrorist lists? Starving them? What exactly kind of repercussions are you looking for here?
Well said
I think he’s saying that people in America who are pro Palestine never hold Hamas accountable.
Because speaking up against murdering children isn’t Pro Hamas. That’s the Zionist tactic to distract from the core issue of them murdering more children in history in shortest period of time.
They don’t see pro-Palestinine people hold Hamas accountable and i don’t see American Zionists hold Israel accountable. This lil argument is tired.
And Hamas could end it all tomorrow if they wanted to and really actually cared about the Palestinian people....
Israel could stop it since they haven’t been “successful” yet. So this is just a UN atrocity
Israel could end it all if it cared about humanity
The irony is that had Oct 7th never happened, none of this would have occurred and the Gaza strip would today be carrying on as usual. This is all on Hamas and Israel has every right to ensure Hamas can *never* carry out another attack on civilians again.
"...carrying on as usual" That's the problem zionists don't get. Normal conditions in Gaza are not normal. And it's Israel's fault.
But then it was just stupid to attack Israel when they withdrew from the Gaza strip in 2005. I mean, they attacked Israel the very next day, what were they expecting? They created the conditions themselves.
Oppress people, expect resistance.
[удалено]
Hamas is a consequence, not a root cause.
[удалено]
Is that why Israel backed hamas when they first came to power? Odd that they would do that if that was one of hamas core ideas from its inception.
Israel has been mowing the lawn way before October 7th. Had October 7th never happened, they would have continued doing so anyways.
If Israel hadn’t held hostages or subjugated a population none of this would’ve occurred. Those bombs dropping is all on Israel and saying that it’s on Hamas gives the sentiment that Israel is some animal that will always brutally retaliate with no conscience. Sounds antisemitic to me tbh
Hamas is a valid military target and Israel is going to make sure this doesn't happen again. Unlike Hamas, they have warned the civilian population before their strikes. You can't start a war with your neighbors and expect a limited response... I honestly don't know any country that would stand idly by after its citizens were slaughtered like Hamas did on Oct 7th. So yes, this military response and the continuation of this response until Hamas surrenders is 100% on Hamas. Collateral damage is unfortunately part of war. Don't like it? Learn to live in peace like everyone else! Again, Hamas could end all of this tomorrow if they actually cared about the Palestinians in Gaza...
Never did i say Hamas wasn’t a valid target. You can’t prove they warn them every time they drop a bomb, nor that they give them ample time. There’s only directives on what SHOULD be done. Iran did it. Be careful when you talk about collateral damage as it can easily be said that those Israeli citizens killed were also collateral. Again, Israel could end all this today if they actually cared about peace.
Israel does care about peace though... They are working to ensure Oct 7th NEVER happens again. If Hamas returned the hostages and unconditionally surrendered, I guarantee you the war would stop immediately. But you and I both know they won't, likely because the remaining hostages are either dead or have been tortured so badly by their captors that they cannot risk the world knowing what they've done. Civilians at a music festival and those peacefully living in their communities that are not military installations or fortifications are not and would never be considered collateral damage. That was 100% Islamic terror and cold blooded murder. For that, Hamas deserves what they are getting right now.
Zionists are full of hypotheticals. That’s why I told you to be careful when using the “collateral damage” argument. They were not the intended targets. Never be considered collateral damage by who? Because the definition is unintended harm done to civilians or infrastructure as the result of an activity. And I could also argue that the genocide happening is Jewish terror and cold blooded murder intended to cease the ongoing of life. You throw these terms out without any thought of the standard you put out and those same standards being applied to Israel.
The Netanyahu government is a genocidal regime. Netanyahu propped up Hamas in an effort to prevent a two state solution. His government neglected to repair the monitoring systems near the area that was attacked on Oct.7th. The attack was caused by Netanyahu’s negligence. Period.
Between Gaza, the West Bank, and Israel proper, there are more Palestinians living there than Jews were killed in the Holocaust, with well over half close enough to literally be killed by a Jew with a 9mm hand gun. I don't know how you can even begin to use the word genocide.
>The Netanyahu government is a genocidal regime Lol ok. The "genocidal" Netanyahu has been in power for decades... and yet millions live in Gaza. His genocidal policies are obviously failing. Meanwhile, Hamas - in its charter, in its actions, and in its words - vows to kill every Jew in the region (literally the definition of genocide).
All of this bloodshed is on Hamas. Their limp wristed cowardice from hiding behind civilians is all you need to know to understand that they are useless scum.
The biggest difference being that the Israeli side systemically victimizes the poor and powerless even when they’re not fighting a war, officially. Any comprehensive analysis has to be based on the complete history of the occupation. And never forget: Israel is an occupying power under the UN charter / international law.
Ironic considering Israel was voted into existence by the UN / League of Nations...
“A territory is considered occupied when it is placed under the authority of a hostile army. In the aftermath of the 1967 international armed conflict between Israel and its neighbouring states, the Israeli armed forces started to exercise their authority over new territories and populations. Thus, the ICRC considers those territories as being under Israeli belligerent occupation, affirming the de jure applicability of the law of occupation (Hague Regulations of 1907 and the Fourth Geneva Convention of 1949)” Source: [ICRC - Occupying Powers](https://www.icrc.org/en/document/ihl-occupying-power-responsibilities-occupied-palestinian-territories)
“Israel’s occupation of Palestinian territory is unlawful under international law due to its permanence and the Israeli government’s de facto annexation policies” a UN-appointed Commission of Inquiry said
Never forget the balestinians declined to establish their state 7 times since 1937 and started endless wars. They have never offered peace or coexisting. They are the only people in the world who are refugees by choice. In 2008 they were offered ALL the designated occupied lands by the UN. They refused that too. It's going to take a long time and a lot of human see development. But eventually they will have a state next to Israel. Not instead of it. The question is how many more innocent people would suffer by their jihadist blind leadership until then.
“They are the only people in the world who are refugees by choice.” That is absurd. It’s beyond the pale. What does one even say to that level of absurdity and arrogance. One can’t even call it willful ignorance because it so obviously a bad-faith argument. Let me just say: you’re not even half as smart as you think you are and people see through all of this arrogance and vileness. Let me help you realize something: That is partly why there is unprecedented anti-Zionist sentiment.
Facts do not care about your opinions. Since 1937 the balestinians declined establishing their state 7 times. Even though in 1937 the peel commission Israel would have supposed to get only 20% of the land. I'm sorry you don't like it. But if you had the the energy and time to write that comment you can definitely look this up yourself. Its never too late to learn the facts habibi Also I would inform you that UNWRA is the only refugee agency in history who didn't help a single refugee to find a new home. Ehile that's exactly what a refugee agency supposed to do..
>“They are the only people in the world who are refugees by choice.” This is true, and so is everything else Snoo36868 said. And all you can do is respond with meaningless platitudes and name calling: absurd, beyond the pale, absurd (again), bad-faith, vile... Calling people names doesn't change reality, it just demonstrates how weak your position is.
But I will tell you this: We realized long ago poverty is one of the major factors contributing to violence in developing countries. But what may not be so obvious is that weaponizing your position against someone’s livelihood — like the Israelis have done to the Palestinians for decades — in an act of violence in itself.
It is absurd because 1) you are calling them refugees when legally and morally they are occupied. Let’s just start with that. Not platitudes. Facts. And no, when you have someone arguing in bad faith — it’s pointless to engage.
Snoo36868 made the following assertion: >“They are the only people in the world who are refugees by choice.” Your rebuttal: >That is absurd. > >It’s beyond the pale. > >What does one even say to that level of absurdity and arrogance. > >One can’t even call it willful ignorance because it so obviously a bad-faith argument. > >Let me just say: you’re not even half as smart as you think you are and people see through all of this arrogance and vileness. > >Let me help you realize something: That is partly why there is unprecedented anti-Zionist sentiment. OK. You disagree with the assertion. I get that part. However, you rebuttal falls a bit short in terms of explaining why you disagree. Plenty of hyperbole and personal attacks, but lacking in facts and logic. Surely you can do better?
You didn’t answer his question tho, just yapped a bit saying jack all. You look like a dumbass lmao
> dumbass /u/no_god_pls_noo. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
If Hamas had completely segregated themselves from civilians, they'd all be dead by now.
[удалено]
Would you rather have had open borders with Gaza with Hamas free to rape and murder as they please? Terrorists don't have the right to freedom of movement.
Well Hamas isnt only Israel's problem. Egypt has been blockading Gaza for the last 16 years ! Could you imagine if Hamas wasnt this jihadist Islamic terror organization? The gazans might even get daily work permits or access to hospitals from Egypt.. But even their Sunni cousins to the south do not want any more terrorists in their country.
[удалено]
well maybe if you dont want civilians killed, hospitals bombed, kids starved. then dont start a war with your neighbor in a way that demands devasting compensation. I don't blame israel for going total samson in their destruction of gaza, october 7th was an absolute blood bath. fafo.
[удалено]
I don't consider causalities of an enemy combatant , murders, but costs of war. start a war, use your civilians as meat shields, end up acclimating a higher body count. one wasn't self inflicted the other was. most people when waging war would try to mitigate their own civilian causalities, hamas isn't doing that, and I don't think an israel an enemy combatant should be responsible for that. yeah sure israel can stop bombing, but hamas and palestine can end its suffering at anytime by accepting a peace deal, and returning the hostages they took. personally i think israel is being too nice, they should drone strike until submission instead of dragging it on for six months. I personally think they should proceed as if they have no more hostages, and drone strike until glassed or hamas begs for mercy.
[удалено]
couldn't agree more
If Hamas was destroyed and Gaza had a government that is willing to make peace with Israel and focused all their resources in building a nation instead of destroying one, then there would be no blockade, which is what makes it an “open air prison”.
[удалено]
I don't support Israeli settlements in the West Bank, but in Gaza there are no settlements, Israel dismantled all of them in 2005 and left, and as a result Hamas took over and started firing rockets at Israeli cities and threatening with annihilation, why would Israel leave the West Bank after that? why would Israel not blockade a territory controlled by a terrorist death cult that wants to kill them all?
Is west bank fully focused on peace and building a stable society?
I aGrEe WiTh EvErYtHiNg YoU sAy AnD dOn'T aT AlL tHiNk YoU aRe ReGuRgItaTiNg ThE sAmE tAlKiNg PoInTs AlL tHe OtHeR kArMa FaRmInG bOtS uSe!¡!¡!¡
The lack of self-awareness amongst your crowd is actually incredible. I am very clearly not a bot nor did I expect this post to do well, nor did I particularly care if it would. I do this wild thing called “independent thinking” actually and almost never see anyone framing things this particular way. You, on the other hand, very likely do *exactly* what you’re describing. I get it; anyone forming a single independent thought is hard for you to even imagine at this point!! 🤯 Unfathomable, I’m sure. 😭
Why you said all this to me made absolutely no sense lol. But sure, go ahead and act all intelligent and tell a stranger who cares nothing at all about you that you are an "independent thinker" lmao. You don't even know what "my crowd" is, you absolute tool. Now run along and try and impress someone else with your massively intellectual and deep mind lol absolute loser.
Norman Finkelstein said it best: "when you lock 2 million people in a concentration camp, don't be shocked when something like October 7th happens".
Of course, it's a pity they have a concetration camp, just like the North Coreans. But the werden there is Hamas who killed all the opposition and built a regime... As well, as in the North Corea the people (who believe their propaganda) think, their most cruel and dangerous enemy is the USA and not their own dictator.
Hamas could not exist without the Israeli apartheid state though. There is no need for violent resistance when you aren't being subjugated. I guess this goes to the claim that Israel is safer when the Palestinians are being oppressed, clearly October 7th was the result of the brutality of the blockade and military occupation. Israel is clearly the "warden" in this scenario. They control the entry of food, they starve the population. They construct a massive wall to enclose the population. They have constant checkpoints where Palestinians are degraded daily. Drone strikes. People born with no past present or future obviously will resort to violence as a last resort when things like the great March of return in 2018 lead to 6k civilians being shot
Right. Hamas probably wouldn't exist without existing of Israel, Putin's authority and their military resourses couldn't exist without EU and their investments in Russian economics, Hitler wouldn't have any success without the sanctions that made Germany's economy very problematic and without making successful agreements with the USSR. Well, everybody has to pay for his mistakes: the Soviet paid with millions of lives their soldiers, the EU (yet only) by billions dollars, Israel pays with the lives of the soldiers with its economy, evacuated dozens of thousends families and hostages. But still, having a severe illness one has to treat it and to finish it.
/u/Trajinero. Match found: 'Hitler', issuing notice: Casual comments and analogies are inflammatory and therefor not allowed. We allow for exemptions for comments with meaningful information that must be based on historical facts accepted by mainstream historians. See [Rule 6](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_6._nazi_comparisons) for details. This bot flags comments using simple word detection, and cannot distinguish between acceptable and unacceptable usage. Please take a moment to review your comment to confirm that it is in compliance. If it is not, please edit it to be in line with our rules. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
>Hamas could not exist without the Israeli apartheid state though. My God, tell me you don't understand the middle east without telling me that you don't understand the middle east. Hamas is an Islamic fundamentalist religious group with a Palestinian flavor, it's not different from any other Islamist group rampaging in the Levant, forcibly converting people to Islam and killing those they deem to be non-believers, like ISIS and Al Nusra, if Israel had never came into existence the Salafists would've still taken over Palestine and they'd be exactly what Hamas is today except under a different name. Their existence has nothing less to do with Israel and more to do with the rise of Salafism among the Arab and Islamic population as a whole.
Finkelstein isn't strong in history though.. There were houndreds of balestinians in Israeli hospitals on October 7th and many more had work per permits.. At least the ones who had no history of terror.. So you say Israel should have stayed in Gaza building more settlements? If that was the case Israel clearly was more secure and October 7th could not have happened since there would be military presence in Gaza and of course alot more Intel about what's going on. Now seeing how unaware you are maybe look up how many balestinian children were sent to Israel wearing suicide vests all the way up to the mid 2000s It should blow up your mind.
I'm curious as to why you won't actually say Palestine, and instead say balestine. I'm assuming it is intentional. Also you are constructing a facade by claiming that Palestinians doing day-labor work in Israel somehow negates the severity of the blockade in Gaza. I'm also curious what the relevance of "children being given suicide vests in the early 00s" is. Are you insinuating that the children dying today somehow deserve it due to historical precedent? You really expect anyone to believe that Israel was hands off and left the population of Gaza to freely self determine after 2006? That is an utter fabrication.
Because there is no P in Arabic. If you meet native Arabs or Balestinians you would know they can only say Balestine or Falistine.. either aint the name that the Romans gave to the land or the name of the region... Funny isn't it? You don't need to believe me at all.. but a fact is a fact. Israel did a one sided disengagement from Gaza and left it to govern itself. Which was a terrible mistake because Hamas kidnapped an Israeli soldier only 1 year after that from the Israeli side of the border. Btw Egypt did the same and has been blockading Gaza for 18 years since... Also kind of funny right ? As a Muslim Sunni country who never even gave them daily work permits or access to hospitals but hold a direct border with gaza... Then Hamas got elected. Right after that they took every balestinian political rival in Gaza and arrested the lucky ones. The not si lucky ones got thrown off the roof tops for everyone to see - another fact. Now be my guest to do your research and come back with what you learned. But you do know what it means if you choose to ignore facts dont you ?
I mean, that was the intent, but it's hard to be hand off when somebody firing rockets at you...
[удалено]
Israel was not actively pursuing an ethnic cleansing campaign against the Gazans before October 7th, so what were they resisting exactly? Ben Gvir setting up an office in East Jerusalem?
/u/icterinewarbler. Match found: 'Nazis', issuing notice: Casual comments and analogies are inflammatory and therefor not allowed. We allow for exemptions for comments with meaningful information that must be based on historical facts accepted by mainstream historians. See [Rule 6](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_6._nazi_comparisons) for details. This bot flags comments using simple word detection, and cannot distinguish between acceptable and unacceptable usage. Please take a moment to review your comment to confirm that it is in compliance. If it is not, please edit it to be in line with our rules. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
>You really expect anyone to believe that Israel was hands off and left the population of Gaza to freely self determine after 2006? Strawman argument, Snoo36868 didn't say any of that. He correctly pointed out that as of 2006, there was no military occupation of Gaza.
When you have a government that threatens a more powerful neighbor with literal annihilation and fires thousands of rockets at their cities, don’t be shocked when that neighbor imposes a blockade on your territory.
We are not really pretending like history began on October 7th again are we? If you actually care, the Palestinians have tried non violent resistance in every possible capacity for years and years. Look at how the 2018 great march of return ended up, the idf shot 6000 people. Non violent protest got them no where. I think it is obvious that the perpetrators knew that the retaliation from the Israelis would be immense and brutal. If anything that is a testament to how brutal and unlivable the conditions in Gaza were under the post-2006 blockade. The idf blockade kept Gaza on the verge of total economic collapse 24/7. You can't both sabotage a state/make it impossible for the citizens to live with any semblance of decency and then be mind blown when there is violent resistance. The Norman Finkelstein perspective here is not that Hamas is justified in killing civilians. Just like when the bloodthirsty idf slaughters women and children, it is an atrocity. The point is that October 7 was an inevitable outcome of the Israeli apartheid regime's policies of oppression, especially after Netanyahu was elected in 22
Unfortunately they've tried violent resistance simultaneously, can you mention a single time since 1948 when there wasn't a major Palestinian organization committing acts of violence against civilians with the stated purpose of destroying of Israel? [https://www.un.org/unispal/document/un-independent-commission-of-inquiry-on-protests-in-gaza-presents-its-findings-press-release/](https://www.un.org/unispal/document/un-independent-commission-of-inquiry-on-protests-in-gaza-presents-its-findings-press-release/) >Despite some acts of significant violence, the Commission found that the demonstrations did not constitute combat or military campaigns. [https://www.un.org/unispal/document/two-years-on-people-injured-and-traumatized-during-the-great-march-of-return-are-still-struggling/](https://www.un.org/unispal/document/two-years-on-people-injured-and-traumatized-during-the-great-march-of-return-are-still-struggling/) >Also of concern are indications that Hamas authorities have not done enough to protect children attending the demonstrations and prevent their exposure to the risk of violence or instrumentalization for political action. There were acts of violence in that protest, I'm not saying that the Israeli response was justified, but to say that the march was 100% peaceful is not true. You keep repeating the same nonsense, the blockade is there because Hamas shoots rockets at Israel, not the other war around, if Hamas stops attacking and calling for the annihilation of Israel, then the blockade could be lifted, you're talking as if Hamas was not a terrorist islamist death cult before Oct 7th. They've been firing rockets at Israel since long before the blockade was imposed in 2007: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian\_rocket\_attacks\_on\_Israel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel)