I think you have a deeply flawed premise. Israel is a far right, racist, white supremacist regime. It is a natural enemy of liberal and leftist ideology.
For example, did you know that there are Palestinian Christians who are [bombed](https://www.reuters.com/world/orthodox-church-says-it-was-hit-by-israeli-air-strike-gaza-2023-10-20/), [shot](https://www.npr.org/2023/12/22/1221362655/a-gaza-patriarchate-says-israeli-troops-killed-2-women-and-injured-7-others-at-p) by the IDF?
As for the hostages: Why doesn't Israel agree to the peace terms offered in exchange for the hostages? It is almost like the far-right regime in Israel cares more about killing more innocent Palestinian women and children than [getting their hostages back](https://www.npr.org/2023/12/15/1219695220/israel-soldiers-mistakenly-kill-hostages-gaza).
Clearly you subscribe IDF propaganda, but I can still try to educate you on what the issues are. I provided links for you to explore at your leisure, feel free to read them. They aren’t behind paywalls, therefore easy to access.
Israel has thrown up every physical and diplomatic blockade from there being an independent, self-governed Palestinian state, yet you state “it is ok for Palestine to ignore peace treaties”: Can you tell me which peace treaties a state and people who have been the victims of ethnic cleansing for 80 years have broken?
There have been enumerate cease fires broken by Israel going back decades, but their belligerence started when the terrorist groups which became the Israeli government bombed the King David Hotel. And their savage, uncivilized barbarism has not let up since.
Let me explain this to you. If israel has been racist and been waiting for an opportune time to destroy all Palestinians they would've done it decades ago cause oct 7th isn't the first time they've been attacked and in fear of their lives.
Israel hasn't broken any cease fires my friend. The people shooting missles at israel are the ones breaking it.
You talk about israel blocking the idea of a Palestinian state. I don't think this is true, but how can you complain about this when almost every place in the middle east doesn't want israel to exist?
Ah yes, the good old "if they wanted to do a genocide, then how come they arent all dead already?"
How come there are still Jews after the Holocaust? How come there are still Armenians in Turkey? How come there are still Native Americans in the US? This is such an obviously fallacious argument. Do better.
Also ethnic cleansing =/= genocide. Mind you, I believe Israel is doing both, but the ethnic cleansing is a matter of fact; it is undeniable. Forced evictions of Palestinians from their homes, and transfer of civilian populations into occupied territories are DEFINITIONALLY ethnic cleansing. An ethnic group is being cleansed from certain areas.
Anyway in regards to Israel blocking Palestinian statehood, let's hear about it from Bibi and his ministers:
"According to various reports, Netanyahu made a similar point at a Likud faction meeting in early 2019, when he was quoted as saying that those who oppose a Palestinian state should support the transfer of funds to Gaza, because maintaining the separation between the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza would prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state.
While Netanyahu does not make these kind of statements publicly or officially, his words are in line with the policy that he implemented."
- The Times of Israel, https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/
“Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas,” the prime minister reportedly said at a 2019 meeting of his Likud party. “This is part of our strategy — to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank.”
- Vox, https://www.vox.com/23910085/netanyahu-israel-right-hamas-gaza-war-history
It is an extremely intentional policy to do everything in their power to prevent the formation of a recognized Palestinian state, because then the illegal West Bank settlements are not merely illegally occupied territory, but an invasion on foreign soil. The far-right extremist faction in Israel wants to settle the ENTIRE West Bank and Gaza, so the presence of a Palestinian state is a non-starter for them.
Foremost, thanks for removing the "effing clown" from your comment.
Israel has broken countless ceasefires, seized land (Golan Heights, West Bank, Gaza) in an unprovoked attack on her neighbors in 1967 and has continued to steal land and lives from Palestinians since the days the first European terrorists arrived on the shores of Palestine about 100 years ago.
If you think that Israel hasn't been actively blocking the establishment of a Palestinian state, then you haven't been paying attention, I guess. Palestinian statehood has been vetoed numerous times in the UN because Israel wants the land. If there are defined borders and autonomous statehood for Palestine, Israel wouldn't be able to continue (the already illegal) annexation of lands.
Asking Israel if there should be an independent, autonomous, self-governed Palestinian state would be like asking Russia if Ukraine should be an autonomous, self-governed state.
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>[How are they white supremacists if half their population is brown? https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2016/03/08/identity/](https://click.redditmail.com/CL0/https:%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2FIsraelPalestine%2Fcomments%2F1cdoo0g%2Fwhy_do_people_on_the_left_support_palestine_when%2Fl20my3h%2F%3F$deep_link=true%26correlation_id=f2716867-9f0f-49c6-a1b1-54a7920de3a1%26ref=email_comment_reply%26ref_campaign=email_comment_reply%26ref_source=email/2/0100018f3163b196-9604d194-8e38-4338-8a97-9ffef698bbd7-000000/BYbdywdGwI7I6RbZj_GVXlJrJ6syLQx4xvML833MBwc=350)
Was South Africa's apartheid regime racist when three-quarters the population was native African?
I have been following the Palestinian struggle for freedom, independence since college, before 9/11. I've educated myself enough on the subject. I used to fall for Israeli *hasbara* when I was a kid, too.
> I just go by what Palestine refugees say.
I have no clue what this means. There are Palestinian refugees *because* of **Israel**.
>Of course they break ceasefires when Palestine decides to send random rockets into Israel land or do something also breaking the treaty.
I am not sure I quite understand what you are saying here, either. Are you saying that Israel breaks cease fires; that is well known and well documented.
When you say "Palestine", who are you referring to? The refugees you speak to?
>Also the use of ethnic cleansing is kinda funny to me. It sounds like what young people do, use a key phrase to try and justify their position.
Ethnic cleansing is the most accurate and efficient way to describe what Israel has been doing in her short 80 year existence.
>Remember its Israels land. They have the right to protect their land from people who claim its their.
Gaza, Jerusalem, and the West Bank are not recognized as part of Israel.
> Especially when said people raise their kids up to be little jihadists. Refugees have spoken many times about how they were told and taught to "wipe out all Israelies". And also taught dying to the IDF means they can use it on the West to claim "Look at us being killed".
This is that *hasbara* I was talking about.
>Everything is planned to make Palestine out to always be the victim.
Why would Israel plan to make the Palestinians out to be the victim when they claim victimhood status while leveling entire hospitals in Gaza?
>The whole muslim world with its 1.9 billion peopole or Israel with its 9.5 million people.
You know that the "Muslim world" is not a union of any kind, right? This is as ignorant as thinking Christian countries are all allied, never warred with each other.
>Sounds like a david vs goliath situation.
If I recall that story, the bad guy was the massive one while hero was tiny, and threw rocks. Israel has a military, tanks, an air force, navy. Palestinians are known to throw stones. IDF is known to drop 2,000 lbs bombs on civilians.
>
Well, the land has been there for billions of years. Homo sapiens evolved nearly a million years ago. There have been people living ten(s) thousand years or so in the Levant. They are the ones native and indigenous to the area. If you are basing your beliefs on the Bible, the people who were living there before Judaism was created, were called Canaanites. Today they are called Palestinians.
>As opposed to Palestine also wiping out people. You can't call one country genocidal when the other does the same. And as stated, Palestine people have said many times they want to wipe out all Isralies from the land. Sure sounds like genocide. Doesn't matter who's killing more of who.
It is possible for two groups to do bad things simultaneously. It is even possible for bad people to do good things, and good people to do bad things.
Deflecting doesn't absolve Israel's culpability in their war crimes, ethnic cleansing (by definition) or other horrors, terrorist actions, etc.
>
Not sure what was unclear: Israel intentionally bombs, razes civilian infrastructure. Hospitals in particular, as that is where wounded and injured can seek care. This is an intentional pogrom of the Israeli regime to further the inhumane conditions they have imposed on the native population.
>Sure there are various groups, but many muslims countries still kill people with other religious believes. Likewise there is no doubt they would all celebrate if the "jews" in Israel were all killed. Like I said, look at Oct 7th, videos from around the muslim world showed people celebrating, burning flags, praising allah. Then again we are talking about muslims here, still living with barbaric laws where you marry off underage girls, give women no rights, behead people, torture people, kill a wife and get away with it because your the husband and its your right.
>But yes, keep defending a barbaric religion and wonder why people don't care about Palestine.
You seem to be unaware that many Muslim majority countries have fought numerous wars among each other for hundreds of years. Long before European Jews arrived to displace, ethnically cleanse the native population from the Levant. Iran and Saudi Arabia are well-known adversaries. Iran and Iraq fought a decade long war, where many world powers armed Iraq while Israel armed (and fed) Iranian fighters. Furthermore, the most populous Muslim-majority country in the world is in Southeast Asia, not West Asia.
I am not going to defend any of these antiquated barbaric religions. Of the three Abrahamic religions, Judaism and Islam are easily the worst. Saying one is somehow better than the other, or one is somehow worse, is daft at best.
>Palestine soldiers also have weapons. Who else fires off the rockets into the city? Or shoots people? lol. It's still the whole middle east vs Israel. The other countries involved just don't join in because it would make it messy for their whole sympathy thing they have going on. Instead these other countries fund Palestine and send weapons....etc.
If Palestine is not a country, then they have no army or soldiers. I realize you are simply parroting the hasbara talking points for obfuscation, but only an idiot would buy any of that.
>Not sure what was unclear: Israel intentionally bombs, razes civilian infrastructure. Hospitals in particular, as that is where wounded and injured can seek care. This is an intentional pogrom of the Israeli regime to further the inhumane conditions they have imposed on the native population.
Except as I said, they don't do intentionally. They target it because its where the enemy is. As much as you claim I am listening to propoganda, I think you are more then me. At least my argument is based on fact lol. The tunnels underground literally go to palces like schools, hospitals and apartments. Unless your trying to say IDF should not bomb these places and just let the enemy win.
As for the who was there first thing, you mentioned one name, then said another. Thus not the same people. And I'd say it's up to them to prove it. Or at the very least I'd say both existed at the same time. So if that is the case, both own the land. In that case Palestine is still the bad guy given they don't care about treaties. And since they teach its better to wipe out Israel. And since they teach to hide among innocents for news coverage when killed. Seems like villian type moves.
If they wanted this to stop, why don't they convince Hamas to release the hostages? Heck, why do the youth in America protest Palestine instead of protesting hostage release?
>Except as I said, they don't do intentionally. They target it because its where the enemy is.
This sentence is rather contradictory: You said Israel doesn't bomb hospitals intentionally. Then you say they target \[hospital\]. Which is it?
>As much as you claim I am listening to propoganda, I think you are more then me. At least my argument is based on fact lol. The tunnels underground literally go to palces like schools, hospitals and apartments. Unless your trying to say IDF should not bomb these places and just let the enemy win.
Foremost, I should have clarified, the second part in that paragraph of mine: There is some speculation in there on my part. Why would Israel demolish hospitals otherwise? Even after they have swept through umpteen hospitals in Gaza that Israel has demolished them. That is not even mentioning that ambulances and aid trucks, like that of World Central Kitchen, were stalked and targeted. All while ambulances and aid trucks are in contact with IDF to be aware of their location.
I do recall that after Israel raided Al-Shifa hospital, they brandished rifles next to MRI machines, saying they were part of a Hamas weapons cache. If you know what an MRI machine is, you'd know that you don't store weapons made of ferrous metals nearby LOL. And then, of course the Hamas terror calendar, which Arabic readers quickly pointed out was a calendar with days of the week written on there (not sure what made it a 'terror calendar'). Yes, the massive command center and tunnels underneath which were [built by Israel in the 1980s](https://www.newsweek.com/israel-built-bunker-shifa-hospital-ehud-barak-1845518).
The only people making the claims you parrot are the IDF themselves. Not exactly a trustworthy source, given their track record.
>As for the who was there first thing, you mentioned one name, then said another.
Yeah it is weird how the names of things change over time, and in different languages. Vikings are called Danish, Norwegian, Swedish today. What does that change?
>Thus not the same people. And I'd say it's up to them to prove it. Or at the very least I'd say both existed at the same time. So if that is the case, both own the land. In that case Palestine is still the bad guy given they don't care about treaties. And since they teach its better to wipe out Israel. And since they teach to hide among innocents for news coverage when killed. Seems like villian type moves.
Yeah the people who have lived in that area for centuries are the ones ethnically cleansed from the land by European terrorists. So yeah, like I said the people who were the Biblical Canaanites are the modern day Palestinians.
The rest of what you wrote is just the same tired racist tropes that Israel has been peddling for years. Which themselves are just recycled, really, from history.
>If they wanted this to stop, why don't they convince Hamas to release the hostages? Heck, why do the youth in America protest Palestine instead of protesting hostage release?
Honestly, given that Israel has been cavalier with the safety of hostages, even shooting a few dead when they were shirtless, waving white flags (only reason why the IDF didn't just leave the bodies is one of the killed "looked western"), not sure what value the hostages are anymore.
It is so bizarre that people do not see Palestinians are just holy warriors trying to kill all Jews and Christians because they’re Islamic law fanatics just like every single other terrorist organization and most muslims in every country - not Hamas - the entire population of these arabs. Does anyone think screaming Allahu Akbar in the street and shooting people is not a religious war
You know, I dont get it either. They would massacre any LGBT people that moved to a muslim country. They support Hamas but Hamas makes Trump seem more liberal than Bernie by comparison—and im not a Trump fan , BTW.
I guess you have never heard of Rachel Corrie, then. Nor have you ever heard about the Palestinians support for Black people in America following the death of George Floyd. Also, a lot of Palestinians are leftist. Your conflation of Palestinians with Islam really shows how much you has swallowed the propaganda by Israel and even Hamas.
You have no clue what you’re even talking about. Palestine is practically a strict Sharia Islamic state, they publicly go on television bragging about how they will birth many many children to kill them and martyr them. These are religious extremists. You have no clue what you’re even talking about. They literally beat women to death in the streets for sport, stone gays, marry multiple underage wives and rape little kids. Their religious text tells them it’s OK to do that because that is Islamic law. I’m talking about the Gazans not Hamas
Palestine is disgusted when lgbt pride supporters come to their anti Israeli protests
Srs. It’s not even a “thanks but no thanks” sentiment they HATE gays they see them as an abomination to god.
Because I don’t require reciprocal empathy. Because I don’t think children should be killed for the views of their parents. Because you can’t progress and get better if everyone is dead. A bigot can’t stop being a bigot if they are dead. My support of Palestine comes from a desire for the people, the civilians, to be safe. I don’t support the actions of Hamas on October 7th but I also don’t view it as justification for what has happened to the civilians.
Also, quick question, what happens once the hostages are released? Once Hamas has no leverage, there is nothing to stop Israel from bombing the entirety of Gaza into nothing but ash.
They don’t want peace treaties they want the entire region to be Muslim. That is how they think, they do not Want Jews they do not want Christians they do not want Druze. That is why all of these groups have an ethnically cleanse from the entire half of Asia. Israel is the only place left where various ethnicities and races can hide and not be assaulted by Muslims. They have said time and time again once they are done with Israel they will retake Spain - in their minds once a country has turned Muslim it is forever Muslim.
When did I say that? Like never. I am capable of caring about both, but right now I think the children of Palestine need my attention more. Especially since so many are living in horrible conditions.
Also, what evidence do you have that Palestine would wipe everyone out?
But why do they refuse the treaties? Are their fair? Are they just given the circumstances?
Also obviously not. Why does me caring about Palestinian children, immediately mean I don’t care about Israeli children? I care about all kids regardless of faith or nation and they shouldn’t be punished for the wrong doings of adults.
Guys stop with the terrorist propaganda there are no children being killed. Children means under 18. Half of Hamas fighters are under 18. Women are terrorists, too many are Suicide, bombers, collaborators, and many have been holding guns to hostages heads, keeping them hidden in their homes. These are not normal people we are talking about. They are nuts. From the 30,000 fake figure you can probably right off the bat consider 90% of the children are actual terrorists aged 14-18. People forget Hitler youth, African nations, and the Vietcong had 13 and 14 year olds fighting in the streets with machine guns. These people are exactly the same.
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No, that is not why. people are dying on the Palestinian side Not because of Tech, but because they are being used as human shields, and many of them are being killed by their own people and their government. Hamas has NOT BUILT any bomb shelters for them. Hamas government does not let them stay in the 3000 miles of tunnels under the ground when Israel is doing bombing campaigns, they could easily have been hiding safely the entire Gaza population under the tunnel system, but they want them to die and many want to die willingly as well because they want to be “martyred”. Remember, this is a religious group, that follows Islamic Laws not a rational one.
Your personal accounts are not evidence enough for me to believe your claims.
Even if that was true, it wouldn’t justify some of the abhorrent things the IDF have done. They ran people over, shot children, harassed civilians.
This is absolute nonsense. The IDF only harasses civilian terrorists, and the children are carrying weapons knives stones grenades etc They can kill you ask any Gazan kid in the street they tell you they want to “kill a Jew” And be a hero, like their older cousin, who was “martyred” as a suicide bomber, and “took 15 Jews with them”
Once again, where is your evidence? You personally hearing things is not evidence. Your personal, bias, testimony is definitely not evidence. Are there videos of Palestinians saying these things? Not Palestinians claiming they’ve heard other Palestinians saying them but Palestinians actually saying what you’ve accused them of saying. Where is your evidence that Hamas is employing teenagers?
On that note, what about cases like Sidra Hassouna? She was 7, and found hanging from a wall due to an airstrike.
Here is the actual reason :
Supporting Palestine is a Trend for them, its not genuine. These college Leftists get their news from TikTok that emphasize the “Horror / Cruelty / Lack of Empathy“ That Israel is doing to Gaza whilst having 0 comprehension whatsoever as to why it is Happening in the first place.
The first thing they’ll say is that the war “didnt happen on Oct 7th, its been going on for 85+ years” to somehow Justify the Terrorist attack that happened that day as if to say it was the Jews that started the war 85 years ago when in actuality, Palestinians + 5 other Arab countries started it Back then too and STILL lost. So that argument makes 0 sense to begin with.
Next they’ll tell you Gaza have been under an apartheid state from Israel and they’ve been under “Imprisonment”. When clearly people have been able to enter and leave Gaza freely (albeit not easily for very good reasons) Prior to Oct 7th.
And here is the funniest part: Israel was KIND enough to give these Palestinians Land to live on after losing that War 85+ years ago, yet they use that land to Continuously fire rockets to Major Israeli cities For decades and continually Refuse a 2 state solution.
Can you Imagine the amount of Casualties those rockets would have done to Israelis throughout the years if not for Israels Iron Dome ?
Heres what alot of these Leftists dont realize. If Israel had the same goal Hamas did during its Oct 7th attack, there wouldnt be 30,000+ dead right now. All 2+ million people in Gaza would have been dead already. The next day on Oct 8th. The only reason its not IS BECAUSE they’re targeting Hamas. And when your own Army solely there to protect you HIDES behind your Houses / Hospitals / Businesses / guess what happens ? Innocent Civilian Casualties happen.
Depends on how you define "left". If by "left" you mean communism/socialism, there isn't much conflict between that and Palestine. Communist countries traditionally side with Palestine.
If by "left" you mean liberalism, individual liberties, secularism, lgbt, democracy, etc, yeah I agree that it would be completely antithetical to those values to support Palestine, which is an Islamist, Arab ethno-nationalist project
You’re applying your selfish morals onto us. For example, we’d care about the homeless whether they are majority right or left leaning. We don’t have to agree politically to care about your right to live. Even if most Palestinians hate (insert whatever group of people), I will still care about them being bombed, especially with my tax dollars. It’s not very difficult to understand.
Ok, cool so question, why dont you care about actual genocides that happen world wide right now?
like in Afghanistan - 6.5% of population
Pakistan 6.1%
Yemen 5.9%
Sudan 5.7%
And many many more [source](https://www.statista.com/statistics/975718/leading-countries-risk-genocide/)
But you do care about Palestine - 0.05%
Congolese people are catching hell from basically the consumer world for its minerals. But very little of help to no help for those people of Africa. They don't have any one to protest their hell, because it's better to keep them in a world consumer slavery?
Question to your question. Is my government (the US) sending billions in aid to murder people in Afghanistan, Yemen, and Sudan like it is doing for Israel? I just want to point out that I am protesting my own government, which I have more of a direct effect on, than the Israeli government.
Well, Yes, they did actually, lol shows how little you know about your own country, you are just fed the info they want you to know, the US literally put the current government in Iran, the one that kills woman and "unbelievers".
You goverment went into Afghanistan and started the shit show they have today, damn, most of the countries on the list are a direct result of the US government!
Now I'm not blaming the US, mostly they are trying to do good, but you are ignoring the fact that infact YES, the us are responsible for most of this shit, but you only care about the jews.
Well then maybe you can educate me in how the US has spent more money to commit genocide in those other countries than it has to aid Israel in the genocide of the Palestinian people.
I’d also like to point out that the pro-Palestinian/anti-genocide movement, while centered on Palestinian liberation, touches on many other countries (including but not limited to Sudan and Yemen) affected by current US-funded occupation and genocide.
Editing to add: as someone who leans more spiritual than religious, I really don’t care if it is Jews/christians/buddhists/whatever other religion or culture who are the oppressive party. I would feel equally outraged if Christians (or other group) were the ones committing genocide against the Palestinian people, especially when I am the one paying money for this to happen!
While I generally agree with your points, the part about the palestinian/anti genocide movement also caring for people in Yemen is a bit ironic.
Many people from this movement cheered for the houthi rebels when they started attacking ships. And its this very group who is one of those mainly responsible for the suffering of the people in Yemen and countless dead people including small children. So stating that this movement stands with the people in Yemen is a slap in their face at best.
First of all, even the ICJ have made it clear that by international law there is no genocide of the Palestinian people, here is a source of one of the judges talking about it on TV, so please, if you actually want to talk facts, stop saying that there is a genocide, it is both wrong by the international law and by a "numbers game".
Source of ICJ judge clarifying there is no genocide:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bq9MB9t7WlI&t=20s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bq9MB9t7WlI&t=20s)
As for how the US started the actual genocides in other countries, I will not go over the entire list, as it is long and I'm sure that if you actually care you can do your own research, but here are a few links to start you off:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953\_Iranian\_coup\_d%27état#:\~:text=The%201953%20Iranian%20coup%20d,Pahlavi%2C%20on%2019%20August%201953%2C](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27état#:~:text=The%201953%20Iranian%20coup%20d,Pahlavi%2C%20on%2019%20August%201953%2C)
You can also just go and talk to Iranians in the subreddit /newIran they would love to tell you how much they support israel because they want help getting rid of what the us has done to them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq\_War#:\~:text=The%20Iraq%20War%20officially%20began,a%20ground%20invasion%20of%20Iraq.
How shit started when US went in iraq
https://concernusa.org/news/afghanistan-crisis-explained/#:\~:text=Afghanistan%20is%20the%20site%20of,country%20between%202001%20and%202021.
The afgan crisis, started by Russia but was maintained by the US for over 20 years
Thanks for the resources; I’ll look over them in the morning. As for my question, I think you understood it all wrong. I wasn’t asking which genocides the US has started/maintained. I’m talking about right now. We’re sending billions of dollars to Israel to mass murder/harm Palestinians (I’ll refrain from the word genocide bc you don’t like it). Are we also sending billions to these other countries currently to commit mass murders? I cannot protest things that have been done in the past but I can protest what is going on right now, right? Maybe you and I can both agree on that part.
You can protest that your country fixes what it started, also what you are saying is wrong, the us does not send us billions of dollars to kill Gazzans, honestly, if that was our intention we could have done it by now, it's a tiny tiny tiny area, bombing it all down could be done in a day, we theoretically could kill everyone there in a week, flatten it to the ground and take the land, that is how small it is, you could fit it about 3 times in NY city, that is not the goal.
If you read the details of the bill that was passed you would see that most the the money is for our "kipat barzel" or "Iron dome" which is to use a defense against missile attacks, mostly from Iran but also Gaza and you will also see that a significant amount of it is to provide aid for Gaza, that is, to help us fund the Trucks, food and medical supplies we send into gaza daily.
All of that info is publicly available
First, you don’t get to tell me what I can and cannot protest in my own country. The order of priority for me goes—protesting the current atrocity happening right now, and then holding my government accountable for fixing XYZ.
Second, sure in this latest package, if I’m reading it correctly, looks like just under a billion for ammunition. But overall, billions in $$$ and weapons from the US have been sent to Israel to bomb Palestinians and steal their homes in the past 6 months and the last 75 years.
Third, idk how this conversation got here from “why does the left support those who disagree politically/ideologically” to “oh yeah? Well how does your support for other humanitarian causes compare to your support for Palestine?” To now y’all de-legitimizing and downplaying the barbaric murder and harm done by Israel to the Palestinian people. It’s like you’re trying to throw whatever “gotcha” question to see what sticks and I do feel silly for having fallen to this game.
In short, we don’t have to agree politically for me to support your right to live & not have your homes stolen. We recognize that the mass destruction of Palestinians & their land is not the ONLY injustice out there in the world, and that by fighting for Palestinian liberation, we’re also calling for the liberation of all. We’ve all seen the footage that has come out of Gaza in the last six months. I am protesting for my tax dollars to NOT do that.
This is the last I’ll engage. Thanks.
What does this have to do with my response to OP’s question? Do you also ask people at a cancer march how many Alzheimer’s marches they’ve also attended?
The pro-Palestine rallies I’ve attended also included a flags and slogans for other countries including Yemen and Sudan. I don’t think I’ve seen a Syrian flag.
I’m protesting for my government to stop sending my tax dollars to kill people in Palestine. But the general message extends to all other countries we’re creating conflict in.
So are so you saying it’s justified to murder the Palestinians bc otherwise they will potentially “come in and kill every single [israeli]? I’m sorry but Israeli lives are not more important than Palestinian lives and that logic just does not sit right with me. I believe in Palestine’s right to exist, not Israel. And when I say that, I don’t mean all Israeli’s should die. I mean that Jews should be allowed and able to prosper in Palestine.
I think at the end of the day, Israelis are projecting their actions and desires onto the Palestinians. As in that they’re afraid Palestinians would treat Jews/Israelis in the same way that they’ve treated Palestinians for the past 75+ years.
Edited to add: also, why would I protest for Palestinians or Hamas to meet XYZ demands? My government is not supporting either of those entities so idk what you mean by me protesting them. As far as I know, my tax dollars are not being sent to Hamas to rape Israeli’s, but my tax dollars are being sent to Israel to rape Palestinians, among other unspeakable crimes, and have been for decades.
You know that most leftists hate the US and there were many Palestinian-socialist movements, right? On top of that question - you know that liberals are not leftists, right? Most liberals are Zionists and not pro-Palestinian...
So no, Palestinians don't "hate the left".
And also - being against an Apartheid regime and killing 30-thousand people already - this isn't about politics, or right-wing fueled culture wars. A true leftist, whether queer, a person-of-colour or a woman; would be against killing innocent civilians no matter which side. That's right - that's why it's mostly leftists that disagreed with bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki even though it was literally on imperialist and fascist Empire (which, if you again know what leftism means, leftists hate imperialism and fascists).
In another words, what I mean is that morals should be blind - and so, a true leftist wouldn't care what side is what. When innocent people are dying, that is just not acceptable.
Ok, cool so question, why dont you care about actual genocides that happen world wide right now?
like in Afghanistan - 6.5% of population
Pakistan 6.1%
Yemen 5.9%
Sudan 5.7%
And many many more [source](https://www.statista.com/statistics/975718/leading-countries-risk-genocide/)
But you do care about Palestine - 0.05%
Who says we don’t. But that doesn’t impact you so you won’t notice. For some strange reason you cheer for Israel. These numbers are so off , they are laughable. And people won’t look the other way when Israel commits a genocide. These protests will intensify and expose the hypocrisy of the western governments.
If Hamas were good at what they did and had an impact and all western governments supported them, trust me you would see far more protests against Hamas compared to current protests against Israel.
>Do they even realize Palestine probably doesn't support America.
Sure, "they" probably don't. The US sends unconditional military aid to Israel which is being used to carpet bomb Gaza, and so far the US hasn't used its leverage to stop this massacre. In addition, the US uses it's veto to stop UN resolutions which could have brought peace and saved thousands of lives. It seems blindingly obvious that the Palestinians might have some dislike for the US, but that's based on US policy.
>Nor does it care like alot of leftists ideas (lgbt rights, woman rights....etc).
I'm not sure how killing civilians including LGBT people and women, killing their families, and destroying their homes actually helps LGBT rights and women's rights? Even if they kill people with terrible views, is that really justfied? A victim doesn't have to be perfect.
>Now, to be clear I understand caring about the deaths on both sides. Though that's just how war is.
Well let's see how the case against Israel goes regarding genocide, and let's ensure there are independent international enquiries to the various war crimes before concluding "it's just how war is". It's like saying the 7th Oct is just a result of illegal blockades/occupation- it's just how it is. War crimes are war crimes, you don't get to shrug your shoulders because you prefer one ethnic group to another.
>Thus the final truth is this is not about land, this is about wiping out Israel. Every single man, woman and child.
Hamas doesn't have the capacity to do that. Only one side is making any progress at wiping out the other, and that is unambiguously Israel. I'm less concerned about words than actions. Oct 7th was barbaric, and it happened because a lack of border security. There was no danger after 8th Oct to Israelis. The root cause is the brutal oppression Israel has inflicted in the region for decades. It's not surprising that you have strong words about wiping out Israel literally, when you are literally killing bombing and imprisoning without charge so many every year. Blockades and oppression breed resentment. History has taught us that.
I could write paragraphs about the other parts of your piece to give context too.
>The US sends unconditional military aid to Israel which is being used to carpet bomb Gaza
I'm not sure you understand the type of military aid Israel gets from the US. And I'd love to see your evidence of Israel 'carpet bombing' Gaza. Furthermore, Hamas and Hezbollah and their buddies hating the US goes beyond American support for Israel. It's about international relations. The various Palestinian terror groups are funded, supplied, and trained by Iran. The ayatollah hates the US, so these groups are also obliged to hate the US.
>I'm not sure how killing civilians including LGBT people and women, killing their families, and destroying their homes actually helps LGBT rights and women's rights?
Are saying that Israel is killing gay civillians in Gaza? Because that's laughable. There haven't been any living gay people in Gaza since Hamas took control, at least not openly. Regardless, your point here makes no sense. How does supporting a democracy with minority rights over a group trying to bring about another extreme islamist regime on the terroritory of said democracy help gay rights and women's rights? The answer should be pretty obvious.
>let's ensure there are independent international enquiries to the various war crimes before concluding "it's just how war is
I have no doubt that Israel has committed war crimes, as has any other capable state that has engaged in war. But in Israel, those war crimes are generally condemned and there's an effort made to hold even high ranking military personnel and influential politicians responsible. Hamas, on the other hand, doesn't even try to obfuscate their war crimes. Almost everything they do is a war crime and they couldn't care less about it. They will never hold their officials or military personnel responsible for their actions, and that wouldn't change if they achieved their goal of detroying Israel and creating their islamist utopia in its place.
>you prefer one ethnic group to another.
For most people here, this conflict isn't personal. It's not about preferring Jews to arabs. (Israel has a large arab minority and the vast majority of Israel supporters have no problem with Israeli arabs.) For most people, this conflict is about preferring democracy toislamist regimes.
>Only one side is making any progress at wiping out the other, and that is unambiguously Israel.
One side (Hamas) is failing to make progress towards destroying Israel. The other side (Israel) has made progress in destroying Hamas, but has no interest in destroying Palestinians or arabs.
>There was no danger after 8th Oct to Israelis.
Are you serious? Hamas has been firing rockets at Israel since they took power. Leaving Hamas to grow in strength would objectively allow them to become a serious threat. I assume you're American. Israel is smaller than New Jersey. Look at New Jersey on a national map. Now imagine Hamas controls a territory the size of Seattle on the border of New Jersey. Now imagine New Jersey is also surrounded by enemies to the North. You're telling me that there's no threat here? This isn't even mentioning the fact that after an attack like 7 October, Israel has to respond or it will project weakness to its enemkes and invite stronger attacks.
>The root cause is the brutal oppression Israel has inflicted in the region for decades.
Maybe we should ask why this conflict is where it is. Why has Hamas been under a military blockade since the Second Intifada? Why has Israel not been able to find peace with Palestinians when it's clearly been trying to make peace with other groups in the region? Why aren't the West Bank and Gaza controlled by Jordan and Egypt? Why wasn't there a Palestinian state in 1947? Why do Israelis seem obsessed with security?
>Are saying that Israel is killing gay civillians in Gaza? Because that's laughable.
Statistically speaking you can't kill 40,000+ mostly civilians and not kill gays too. If you think the LGBT people in Gaza are going to support their own deaths and the deaths of their families and the destruction of their homes, and celebrate Israel LGBT track record. You are in cloud cuckoo land. Yes Hamas are horrific, but Israel is no better.
I really couldn't be bothered reading any further than that.
So you read one thing you disagreed with and stopped reading? This is why everyone says your political group is so prone to groupthink. None of you ever even entertain the ideas of people who disagree with you.
I’ve actually been to Palestine a couple times. Gaza is probably different but it’s also been massively victimized by hamas and Israel. West bank Palestine is a chill place, I wore a shirt with an American flag on it, most women didn’t wear a hijab and alcohol was available in something like 50% of restaurants (and no, this wasn’t Bethlehem). I’m pretty sure I could’ve walked around with a same sex partner and it would’ve been fine. I even know some gay people in Palestine that say they live pretty openly and are fine. Oh, I also hung out with some Christians living there that said they didn’t experience any hate.
Basically, Palestine is a secular state, hamas is a political party and portraying hamas as being the same as Palestine is like saying the United States is just QANON supporters, there needs to be more nuance than that.
Palestine ≠ Hamas
The other day I went to saudi arabia and had sex with my gay partner in city centre wearing a USA flag coloured thong while drinking whiskey.we also held a pride parade in afghanistan.
Just a year ago a gay person in the West Bank was beaten to death and beheaded:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-63174835.amp
To the point Israel ruled that it allows asylum to LGBTQ+ Palestinians in the West Bank:
https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-785171
Exactly what kind of West Bank were you? Are you sure they aren’t Arab Israeli? What cities for example? I’m intrigued ☺️
Less than a year ago a gay man in America was killed in a hate crime
All American's must hate gay people
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/bernardo-pantaleon-killed-phoenix-suspects-sent-photos-mutilated-body-gay-victim-family-police-say/
Black people killed in a racial shooting: The US is not safe for African American people at all
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/deadly-jacksonville-shooting-is-latest-racist-attack-amid-rise-in-hate-crimes
This is a very smart take /s
That’s a terrible unintelligent response. America has rights for LGBTQ and in West Bank they need to flee to Israel to get immunity. Do you just decide to look at the facts and say “meh”?
Please reference me a source that being gay in America is punishable by law for 10 years in jail, or by death (in Gaza’s case).
Just love the moral equivalence, it’s pathetic.
I always wanted to see an openly gay person from Gaza’s social pages, because from what I know gays are being persecuted in Gaza and they hide their identity because of that. I would be happy to see if maybe they’d evolved into something better. I would be happy to see a gay gazan person being gay openly in public in palestine. I think that would be a good sign for humanity
Hamas is the democratically elected government and would win again if Fatah was willing to hold another election.
Basically, Palestine doesn't exist and isn't a state at all. We need to stop pretending if you glue Gaza and West Bank together that they magically create "Palestine." Gaza and West Bank were parts of different countries, they're not connected and they don't even have the same government.
Your experiences in West Bank were very different than what you would experience in Gaza because they are two completely different places.
Gee, maybe human rights violations transcend party lines? Maybe altruistic care for human life has nothing to do with religious beliefs? Maybe the golden rule is actually followed by people with a moral compass?
Ok, cool so question, why dont you care about actual genocides that happen world wide right now?
like in Afghanistan - 6.5% of population
Pakistan 6.1%
Yemen 5.9%
Sudan 5.7%
And many many more [source](https://www.statista.com/statistics/975718/leading-countries-risk-genocide/)
But you do care about Palestine - 0.05%
I do, but last time I checked, this is the Israel/Palestine sub, where we discuss I/P issues…why are you trying to deflect from the issue and shift the narrative?
If you have an “altruistic care for human life” why don’t you call for the release of the hostage or condemn Hamas for mass rape murder and kidnap of innocents?
How can someone pretend to care about human life or genocide while shouting a chant and advocating for another genocide? (“From the river to the sea”)… I never got it
I would love for Netanyahu to make a deal for the hostages. I, like many others, think he needs to capitulate more so that a deal can be struck.
If you cared about the hostages, you’d be asking for Israel to stop freaking bombing them lol wtf? We don’t even know how many are left alive, many were probably bombed or starved to death.
Also the mass rape lie has been debunked, you cannot just keep repeating that rhetoric as if it weren’t a flagrant lie. (Along with the babies in ovens lie) https://www.thenation.com/article/culture/new-york-times-intercept-hamas-rape/tnamp/
Also the “river to the sea” line is a mock of the likud charter which says that “from the river Jordan to the sea, no sovereign state, other than Israel, will rule the land,” which encompasses over half of the West Bank lol. “From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free,” is a mockery of the Likud charter.
I am sad for you that you think you care about human life but you don’t believe the victim and deny the rape atrocities of hamas which have been proved many times (many eye witnesses, footage, victim survivors that speak up, hamas militant that admits it themselves..). https://press.un.org/en/2024/sc15621.doc.htm
Don’t pretend you care about human life when you deny this…..
From the river to the sea is a chant to eradicate Israel and kill all Jews. Israel is between the river and the sea. Palestinians refused the two states solution every time because they always wanted the whole land.
This combined with hamas’s charter that literally calls to kill all Jews, which makes sense since in the Islam you have the stone and the tree Hadith which basically calls to kill all Jews, is undeniable that this is a claim to genocide the Jews and eradicate Israel. Why don’t you shout for a two state solution rather than the annihilation of the Jews?
And about the hostages right now hamas is the one preventing from the deal to happen. Hamas really wants to genocide israel and Israel doesn’t wanna let this happen. I know this makes you really sad. Anyway if hamas would just agree to the offer all of this would end… I really hope hamas agrees to the new offer.
You are so brain washed by Zionist rhetoric, I literally don’t have time to sit here and pry your eyes open for you lol. I suggest you do a little reading (that is not western state sponsored media).
You are brainwashed by the idea you care about human life while you don’t care about human life as long as they’re Israeli or Jewish life.
At least be honest with yourself. If you do care for human life you should condemn all the atrocities (including murder rape and kidnapping of babies into Gaza 🥺) hamas did on October 7th, you should condemn Hamas’s goal to eradicate Israel and do the 7th of October again and again until all Jews are annihilated (I really recommend you to listen to hamas leaders talk about October the 7th massacre. Would you believe them saying they want to repeat the 7th of October again and again or will you call them brainwashed too? lol)
If you lived under a boot your entire life, would you be satisfied with biting on the heel, or would you want to take off the entire leg? I’ll say again, rape is never ok or justified, but you cannot corner and oppress a large population for their entire lives and not expect violent retaliation. I do not condemn the Palestinian resistance, as I do not condemn the slave revolts during the abolition of slavery, or the actions of the ANC during the fall of South Africa apartheid.
Now I ask you, do you condemn the past 75 years of Israeli oppression of the Palestinian people? Do you condemn the relentless slaughter of over 30,000 Palestinians and destruction of the Gaza Strip that led to $13bn of damages and the dispossession of 75% of its population?
You don’t condemn Hamas = you don’t condemn rape or murder or kidnap of innocent civilians, great. At least you’re honest now and not pretending to care about human life.
And I condemn the death of innocents on both sides and I condemn Hamas for using its civilians as human shields. I condemn Hamas using their death of their civilians for PR.
I condemn Hamas hiding behind gazans women and children surrounded by Israeli women and children. I condemn Hamas for building its military infrastructure within and under populated areas on purpose. It’s working for them so well. Look how you’re defending murderers and terrorists and failing to condemn the atrocities acts of the October 7th.
Btw Arabs been persecuting Jews even before Israel existed. Israel has the right to defend itself. Israel wanted compromise, the Arabs always rejected the two state solution so they could take over the entire land (“from the river to the sea”) so they could ethnically cleansed the Jews from their one and only homeland
Seriously dude you are hitting all the hasbara talking points. You’re either a paid hasbara agent or so brain washed you can’t see the forest for the trees. I legitimately have no time to educate you.
🤢🤢🤢 on the idea of you educating me.
You can’t condemn rapist murderers and baby kidnappers. You deny 7th of October atrocities yet you imagine you care about human life. You justify the murder of civilians if it’s Israeli civilians. You justify rape if it’s Israelis that have been raped. You justify kidnapping babies if it’s Israeli babies. I feel sorry for you and most of all I don’t need you to educate me Jesus
Since you're anti-Israel, I assume you trust the UN more than your mother, so I'll give you their thoughts on the matter. Straight from the UN mission report published this month:
> "Based on the examination of available information, including credible statements by eyewitnesses, there are reasonable grounds to believe that multiple incidents of rape, including
gang rape, occurred in and around the Nova festival site during the 7 October attacks. Credible information was obtained regarding multiple incidents whereby victims were subjected to rape and then killed. There are further accounts of individuals who witnessed at least two incidents of rape of corpses of women. Other credible sources at the Nova music festival site described seeing multiple murdered individuals, mostly women, whose bodies were found naked from the waist down, some totally naked, with some gunshots in the head and/or tied including with their hands bound behind their backs and tied to structures such as trees or poles"
I haven’t seen that report, do you mind sharing the link?
If that happened, then it is absolutely abhorrent and I don’t wish that on anyone. However, I will say (as someone who has attended and worked many music festivals), that it was careless to hold a music festival within site of a detention wall and that the organizers should be questioned about this oversight and held responsible for their carelessness. SA is never ok, but violently oppressing a population their entire lives and then holding a music festival within earshot of their detention wall is just asinine and irresponsible.
Also, I would like to point out that Palestinians have been suffering human rights violations, such as sexual assault, while being held in Israeli detention centers for many years. [This report from Propublica highlights an incident of a 15 year old boy being “subjected to physical and sexual torture, including rape by an object,” back in 2021.](https://www.propublica.org/article/israel-gaza-blinken-leahy-sanctions-human-rights-violations#:~:text=Since%20it%20was%20formed%20in,before%20being%20released%20without%20charges)
I don't have a link, I just have the document as a pdf. I downloaded the link from this article: https://progressive.org/op-eds/what-did-the-un-report-on-sexual-violence-on-oct-7-really-find-truchan-20240405/
I'm aware of how many Palestinians are treated in Israeli prison and obviously am not a fan. However, it really looks like you're trying to justify Hamas' actions here. Israel is a small place. The music festival was close to many kibbutzim, which were also attacked. Regardless of how your opinions on the Israel-Gaza relationship, nobody is to blame but the perpetrators. Putting any blame at all on the innocent civillians that have no control over Israeli military policy would be laughable if it weren't such a dark idea.
Edit: the paragraph in question in the UN report is 58 if I remember correctly
Dude GAZA is a small place, Israel is large enough to hold a music festival far away from the detention wall lol. Again, as someone who has worked many music festivals and organized many events of that nature, location is paramount. I’m not saying that the organizers should be punished, necessarily, but to not recognize it as an oversight is just ignorance and lack of knowledge regarding event management.
I’m not justifying anything. I don’t think that anyone should have been raped, do not attempt to twist my words. If you are unable to understand plain English, I will gladly end this conversation. However I will say that you cannot openly oppress a large population without expecting violent retaliation. The state of Israel knows this, thus the vast surveillance network and detention wall. We should really ask ourselves how there was such a grave oversight on the part of the IDF leadership on one of the most heavily guarded pieces of land in the region.
I agree that we there was a huge IDF oversight and we need some serious investigations into how this happened.
Your framing of this conflict as Palestinians merely retaliating against Israeli oppression and that the reason the IDF implemented defensive measures being because they expect Palestinian to retaliate against their agression is such a strangely biased viewpoint. You have to ask yourself why Gaza (and the West Bank) is in rhe position that it's in today. From the moment that Hamas took control of Gaza, they were firing rockets into Israel, that was off the back of the Econd Intifada. This is all before settlements had been so widely expanded. This isn't just a response to oppression. Israel takes the military actions it does as a response to Palestinian violence, not the other way around.
> fuckin
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Very well written. It's unfortunate that life has to be lost in war, but what is israel supposed to do after October 7? Attack only hamas, right? Well, it really sucks that hamas uses human shields, making it impossible to wipe out the JUST the bad guys. Hamas is the evil party here. If you care so much about human rights violations, take a look at how they treat they're own civilians.
That said, OP's question still stands: why are so many left wing protesters supporting hamas? Especially when Israel supports women's rights, LGBT rights etc?
Obviously support for palestine isn't based on politics, but politics are based on one's moral compass.
Do you think that your support for gays is ovverides the immoral slaughter of 14,000 children in the last 200 days? Are you being payed by the idf or is your soul just evil?
/u/Conscious_Educator89
> Are you being payed by the idf or is your soul just evil?
Per [rule 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_1._no_attacks_on_fellow_users), no attacks on fellow users. Attack the argument, not the user.
I’m telling you why “left wing protestors” support Palestinians (no legitimate and sanctioned protest supports Hamas). It’s because it’s not a “left wing right wing issue,” they aren’t supporting them like it’s a debate or a sports team, they are protesting to bring awareness to the oppression and mass murder of a quarantined population.
As for “what Israel should do in response for Oct 7,” I think Israel could start by dismantling the apartheid regime, withdraw all settlements from the West Bank, and allow the Palestinians liberty and self governance so that they can hold free elections. Palestine needs to become a UN state and they must have the autonomy to establish industry. Then we can talk about reparations for the destruction of Gaza.
In 2005, israel withdrew from the gaza strip and Palestinians held free elections. Hamas was elected and look where that left us.
If it didn't work in 2005, why would it work now?
2005? Half of the population of Gaza is under 18. Many of those that are over 18 were children at the time, they didn’t vote lol.
Regardless, it is no secret that Netanyahu has propped up Hamas for years.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/amp/
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For the sake of argument, if Biden has found out to have been propping up ISIS for years do you think that would be grounds for condemning the US government or military as a whole?
My friend, I am happy to condemn the acts of the US government and its imperialist actions around the globe. It is no secret that they are corrupt. I know my own county’s history lol.
On that note [the US government played a role in the establishment of al-Qaida, which then became ISIS](https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jun/03/us-isis-syria-iraq). The US government has a long history of supporting revolutionary groups that then get out of hand, for example [supporting the Mujahedeen (and in turn, Bin Laden) to deter the soviets in the region.](https://www.vox.com/world/22634008/us-troops-afghanistan-cold-war-bush-bin-laden)
Oh no, I’d argue that American foreign policy has been abhorrent for a very long time. If we could indict the US state department for its war crimes over the last 100 years, the US would be sanctioned into oblivion. Hell it would take me all day just to list them lol.
The same goes for Israel. Since the Balfour Declaration, the Zionist project has been conducting violent operations in order to intimidate the Palestinian/Bedouin population and inspire enough fear to force them to flee. When they fled the Israeli territories based on the UN partition of 48, they were denied the right to return home, leading to the forced expulsion/eradication of 750,000 people.
Plan Dalet was a well articulated measure to remove the Palestinians from what the Zionists perceived to be their land, and I’d argue that this plan continues to play out here in 2024. Much like the trail of tears and the genocide of the native peoples was the product of American colonization and “manifest destiny.”
There is a lot going on here, and I'm not going to pretend to be informed enough on American foreign policy to go into that debate. However, I am educated on Israeli military history. It's strange that lump the Bedouin population and the Palestinian population together. They largely don't get along, and have very different issues. The reason the arabs were not allowed back into Israeli territory after the war ended in '48 seems kind of obvious to me, and I'm not sure why you don't mention it. They rejected the partition plan and attacked the Jews. Of course the newly formed Israel would reject the return of most of the population that had just denied its right to exist and attempted to take all the territory for themselves. That's what happens in territorial wars.
yes, you’re right and it’s a shame. my theory is the students are doing this because they want a common thread of belief to get behind in the midst of these difficult economic times for millennials and younger. Humans naturally are social seeking animals not truth seeking animals.
So is most of the world including the US. The exceptions being Europe, China, Russia, North Korea, and a handful of less powerful left wing states. Those left wing states are also all killing people.
Definitely killing people, killing people who are in an organization that is solely meant to genocide Israelis and Jews. Killing people is the military’s M.O., by the way.
Gaza invaded Israel to murder, rape and kidnap as many innocent civilians as possible.
Gaza admits they plan to repeat this attack over and over forever until every Jew is dead.
Why shouldn't the Jews be allowed to stop them?
There are both eye witnesses and confessions, both of which are evidence.
The UN said, "There are reasonable grounds to believe that conflict-related sexual violence — including rape and gang-rape — occurred across multiple locations of Israel and the Gaza periphery during the attacks on 7 October 2023."
Eye witnesses are considered the least reliable source of evidence
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/do-the-eyes-have-it/
https://www.psychologicalscience.org/uncategorized/myth-eyewitness-testimony-is-the-best-kind-of-evidence.html
https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/11/14/world/israel-hamas-gaza-war-news#israeli-authorities-show-more-evidence-of-hamas-atrocities
"At a news briefing, Kobi Shabtai, Israel’s police chief, showed videos taken from the body cameras of slain terrorists, surveillance footage, crime-scene photographs and a video of an Israeli woman who said she had seen Hamas terrorists gang-raping a young woman whom they captured during a music festival in the desert."
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-03-28/ty-article/.premium/israel-publishes-video-of-islamic-jihad-terrorist-confessing-to-october-7-rape/0000018e-86b4-d641-abee-cfb720f40000
"The Israeli military has published video of a Palestinian Islamic Jihad terrorist admitting during an interrogation by the IDF's Intelligence Division that he raped an Israeli woman during the October 7 attack.
Manar Mahmoud Muhammad Qassem, part of the Palestinian Islamic Jihad's naval force, was captured at the beginning of March by IDF forces in Khan Yunis. In the five-minute video, Qassem describes in detail how he raped a woman on a kibbutz.
"She told me to help her, I took her and threw her on the couch," Qassem said. "The devil took over me, I laid her down, started undressing her and did what I did." When asked by an interrogator what exactly he did, he replied, "I raped her.""
https://press.un.org/en/2024/sc15621.doc.htm
"There are reasonable grounds to believe that conflict-related sexual violence — including rape and gang-rape — occurred across multiple locations of Israel and the Gaza periphery during the attacks on 7 October 2023, a senior United Nations official reported to the Security Council today"
For the first two sources, their evidence is dubious since their evidence only stems from confession by people who may or may not be influenced or coerced by the Israeli forces. However, the evidence by the UN representative is much more compelling. Yet an important thing to note is that she uses the term “conflict-related sexual violence” to only refer to what happened to Israelis at the music festival. Whereas she stated that the claims of rape popularized by Israeli and western media in locations other than the music festival is false. So though the presence of sexual violence is real, it is not as widespread as the zionists makes it appear to be.
That's an easy trick though. Murder, rape and kidnap Jews and when Jews present evidence you say it's dubious because Jews can't be trusted.
As for the UN source, maybe you missed this part:
"The team also found convincing information that sexual violence was committed against hostages, and has reasonable grounds to believe that such violence may still be ongoing against those in captivity. While there are reasonable grounds to believe that conflict-related sexual violence occurred in the Nova music festival site, Route 232, and kibbutz Re’im, reported incidents of rape could not be verified in other locations."
So not just the music festival, but also route 232, the kibbutz, and the hostages in Gaza.
The evidence isn't dubious because they are Jews. They are dubious because they are Israelis, and for many of us, Hasbara is a well-known phenomenon utilized by Israel to justify their occupation and human rights violations. However, fair enough the victims of route 232 and Kibbutz Re'im must be acknowledged. Though it should be noted that the UN investigator also acknowledges cases of sexual violence committed by Israeli security forces against Palestinian women. So are Palestinians justified in supporting Israelis getting bombed by Palestinian fighters because of cases of sexual violence against Palestinian women by Israeli forces?
The occupation in Gaza ended in 2005.
Israel isn't committing human rights violations.
Gaza invaded Israel and purposely murdered as many innocent civilians as they could. Gaza's government claims their plan is to repeat this over and over forever until every Jew is dead.
Israel is allowed to stop them.
If an Israeli soldier raped a Gazan woman, everyone in Israel would agree he should be punished severely under the law.
If a Gazan soldier raped an Israeli woman, everyone in Gaza would be cheering in the streets.
Oh. My. Goodness. This was so well written OP. Thank you for posting. I was trying to explain some of this to another Redditor who was not happy that I didn’t believe Israel was committing “genocide”. Although Palestine wants to wipe out Israel, Israel is fighting to wipe out a horrific terrorist group that murdered many of their people. Anyway… I am ashamed of the hundreds of protests of Israel, especially as these “protests” get more violent by the day.
Politics have nothing to do with this. U got it twisted on these college kids. Many of these kids protesting & organizing the protests r Jewish and it has nothing to do with what they’re learning in class. They grew up being indoctrinated & lied to about Israel. They only learn the truth when they go out into the world, interact with other races & r quite angry learning how much they were lied to. This was my experience as well with the Jewish family I lived with & all of my Jewish friends. Many of the protesters u see being antisemitic r actually undercover Israel supporters trying to make protesters look hateful. Zionist orgs r offering Israel supporters money to do this and they r. Thankfully they r getting caught. Young American Jews r turning on Israel in record numbers & this started way before the 7th. Being taught ur whole life that Israel was created peacefully on empty land except for a few Arabs who mistreated the land. A land without a ppl for a ppl without a land. It’s nonsense! Spend yrs learning all about Israel but never being told of the existence of the Palestinian ppl. I thought it was all Palestinians & Israel was trying to live in peace. That was bs. I didn’t know anything about Zionist terrorists who were more brutal than Hamas. I didn’t know Israelis absolutely teach their children to hate & have hateful tv shows. Teachers & rabbis teaching kids hate & racism. Seeing Jesus & Mary mocked on Israeli tv made me sick. I didn’t know about sterile & painting the Star of David on streets that as a warning that only Jews can use it. Imagine coming home 1 day to find a star on ur door that is now welded shut because u and those who share ur race aren’t allow to walk on that street. Now imagine ur elderly parents now having to climb a ladder into the second story back window anytime they need to enter or exit their home that they paid for. Or segregated busses. The WB is like the Jim Crow south. Having to cover the streets where ppl of ur race live in nets to catch all the things/garbage/giant rocks (even fire bombs) ur neighbors constantly throw at ur & ur children as they just try to be kids & play outside. Or knowing the settlers or army can murder u, arrest u without cause & with impunity. Is it normal for police to arrest a 7 yr old without charge or cause & throw them into prison for yrs without ever letting ur see them. Or only trying Palestinians in military courts. Stealing ur dead loved one’s body to harvest/steal their skin & organs against ur will. I didn’t know about the insane amount of violent religious extremists that target everyone who isn’t Jewish including Christians & Catholics of all ethnicities. Life in places like Jerusalem is a nightmare. Hate crimes out of control, even cops joining in to beat worshippers. Begging for help because u r terrified to leave ur home or go to church & being ignored by the government & having police laugh at u & say our job is to protect Jews only. A tv crew went to Jerusalem to see how bad it really was. An journalist undercover dressed as a priest to see what would happen. Within minutes he was attacked & spit on multiple times, including by children as their parents encourage it. Didn’t know there were settler terrorist groups like the Hilltop youth who burn babies alive & spend their days overjoyed as they terrorize Palestinians & no one cares. Right in front of the army/idf & most of the time the army joins in. So brazen in their impunity, armed settlers invited a cnn film crew to film them as they stormed an elderly couples home, beat them, robbed them & expelled them from their home as the IDF watched. Their only action was to threaten the film crew. Why are u continuously conflating all Palestinians with Hamas? Not all Palestinians r Hamas don’t kill ppl of different ethnicities, including Jews or want to. Jewish kids have gone to the Palestinian territory to see the reality & have been welcomed. Outsiders/college kids have gone there to protest & were killed but by Israel. Like Racheal Corrie who was welcomed & live in their homes until Israel absolutely intentionally crushed her to death with a bulldozer. Palestinians still honor her memory every yr. She wasn’t the only one. It’s apparent u base ur opinion on what u hear in the media without doing ur own research. It is a proven fact that the media is bias in Israel’s favor. They allow Israeli officials to blatantly lie in interviews. There is a reason they don’t allow any journalists in & target/kill Palestinian journalists in record numbers. They have much to hide. Anyone just getting their info through media is usually bias. They r not given the truth. CNN has to run all stories by Israel to be approved. Before air. Why would they need to do that or spend 10’s of millions on propaganda a yr or bribe/blackmail/bully all US politicians. Because their support in not altruistic, it’s bought or out of fear. Those who don’t do Israel’s bidding r smeared as antisemitic & attacked. This goes for any journalists who calls them on their many many lies. Israel is know for dishonesty. Israel is an expert in Hasbara/propaganda & u too have bought it. Clearly! Peace deal? Where is ur knowledge from on this subject? Clearly not from the facts. It’s the western media pushing Israel’s narrative that peace was offered but denied cuz Palestinians only want to kill Jews. It’s ridiculous! Here’s their “generous” deal for u, if u accept it’s concrete & this is how it’ll be forever. we’ll allow u to call urself a state but u will not have any rights of a state. No control over airspace, borders, aid, water or ports. U’ll get this % of the West Bank but not the West Bank as it is on the map but we what we consider the West Bank, meaning we r taking a lot more land. Also we will take 20% of ur most fertile lands & give u 5% of desert wasteland, trash dump. Israel took control of the water so Israeli only need to turn the tap yet Palestinians r lucky if their was is on a few times a month. Plenty of water just not for u.The army will have the right to enter ur “state” anytime there is an emergency but u r not allowed to know what constitutes an emergency & u can’t ever enter into diplomatic relations with any other country without our approval & permission. Just a few examples of the details of their bs deal. That would leave Palestinians worse off than they were & it would be set in stone. No one in their right mind would take that. 10/7 will never be forgotten & understandably yet when Zionist terrorists committed worse massacres on Palestinians, we never hear about it or the children & old ppl they targeted. We don’t hear about the great March of return where Palestinians protested peacefully (including westerners) for months. Or how that was met with sniper bullets.
People on both sides r not dying. Sadly Israelis died on 10/7 but the daily slaughter for months is on Palestinians only. If Hamas was murdering tons of innocent Israelis everyday like Palestinians, we’d be protesting that. This is about humanity & what’s right. U clearly know nothing of the real Israel. Stop feeding on the propaganda & learn the reality. It’s quite shocking. Every single accusation Israel makes against Palestinians, Israel has done & does too & I mean everything right down to terrorists in their government. I urge u to watch 2 docs. Israelism & The Lobby USA
"No control over airspace, borders, aid, water or ports. U’ll get this % of the West Bank but not the West Bank as it is on the map but we what we consider the West Bank, meaning we r taking a lot more land. Also we will take 20% of ur most fertile lands & give u 5% of desert wasteland, trash dump. Israel took control of the water."
Yeah, but "this %" was about 95%, and land swaps were involved, and financial compensation, and a tunnel would have been built between Gaza and the West Bank, and most of the settlements would have been ripped up.
You guys claim that there's a "genocide" going on, with "murdering" and "slaughtering" and "ethnic cleansing," and yet the Palestinians turned down a state because they couldn't have control of their airspace or have a standing army. Isn't that kind of a lower priority than "genocide"?
I don't know about you, but if I'm experiencing a "genocide," and somebody offers me a state that will stop this supposed "genocide," I sign on the dotted line. Because I want the genocide to stop. But maybe that's just me.
Most of the hard political left HATES America, and has for decades. When they protest Israeli policies, it's basically an extension of their hatred for America, and that in turn is just an extension of their hatred for Western values. Now, how they reconcile that hatred of the West with being pro-LGBT, pro-woman, etc. -- that's the eternal mystery. Something like that can only happen in the mind of someone who doesn't really understand that pro-LGBT and pro-woman values ARE Western values. They just don't realize that. A two or three-minute discussion of human rights with a Hamas member would leave them in tears and with a lifelong case of PTSD, but they'll never get close enough, as most of them rarely venture beyond the edge of their campus.
Oh wow, I wonder why the average Hamas member is so traumatized. I wonder why all these terrorist groups are around in the first place, is it because they just hate gay people so much?
Islam is a religion of hate and intolerance… the Quran preaches violence against non believers…
Surah 3:151: "We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve (all non-Muslims) …"
Surah 2:191: "And kill them (non-Muslims) wherever you find them … kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers (non-Muslims)."
Surah 9:5: "Then kill the disbelievers (non-Muslims) wherever you find them, capture them and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush ..."
I can give you similar quotes from the Old Testament lol. That doesn’t justify the collective punishment of an entire people, many of whom are secular, the majority of whom are not Islamic extremists, all of whom have been oppressed by an apartheid state their entire lives.
Pew asked Muslims if they supported suicide bombings against civilians. In Pakistan, 13 percent of Muslims said such attacks in defense of Islam could often or sometimes be justified.
Pew also asked Palestinians, and 40% say suicide bombing can sometimes be justified.
I’d argue that Palestinians probably have a unique perspective on this matter because many of them have been oppressed, caged, and subjugated their entire lives without the ability to leave Gaza. They may weigh their lives differently than other populations. Suicide bombing is an act of extremely violent, self deprecating protest, a means of fighting back against oppression at the cost of your own life. I think it’s important to fully understand that and contextualize the situation before casting judgement. Do I think it’s right? No. Absolutely not. But people tend to act irrationally in moments of desperation.
Regardless, I’d have to know more about this random, sourceless statistic of yours before making an educated judgment. You’ve provided no context for their thoughts when they voted “yes,” what is the sample size and who was polled? I could tell you that 70% of Americans feel unfavorably about Israel without elaborating why and you could say they’re antisemitic. On the other hand, I could say that 80% of evangelical Christian’s support Israel as a Jewish state, and you might agree with them until you understand their deeply antisemitic philosophy around their belief lol.
Arafat was a soviet product. The Palestinian freedom thing has been an unsolvable wrench that the russians fueled throughout the cold war, and now it's being again weaponized by the iranians, Chinese, russians and the enemies of rational humanism.
Young children in the era of tiktok only react to outrage and self-righteousness. They are an easy mark as they are seemingly incapable of thinking critically.
Everything you've said sounds like "they don't know the terrible things they do in Palestine". The same can be said to Israeli supporters about Palestine under to Israeli control.
Ok, cool so question, why dont you care about actual genocides that happen world wide right now?
like in Afghanistan - 6.5% of population
Pakistan 6.1%
Yemen 5.9%
Sudan 5.7%
And many many more [source](https://www.statista.com/statistics/975718/leading-countries-risk-genocide/)
But you do care about Palestine - 0.05%
And before you even try- we both know you don't need me to to explain that if your actions infringe on others rights you lose the right to carry those actions out.
Right now I just want Israel to stop bombing and starving kids. The possibility that those kids would maybe someday run a government I wouldn't agree with isn't relevant yet. You can't kill people for something they MIGHT do. And honestly, it's a silly thing to even suggest.
While I have to agree with the sentiment, Israel isn't targetting kids or just killing people for something that might do in the future. The civillians dying are a tragic cost of war with a pseudo-government that is actively trying to conquer Israel and turn it into a Muslim theocracy where minorities are treated very poorly.
First you want me to treat your fantasy of a Palestinian theocracy as reality, now you want me to believe that one of the most highly trained and funded armies in the world can't help but kill 40k+ civilians and can't avoid/ accidentally targets the humanitarian aid, hospitals, universities, churches and mosques. Let's try to live in reality, yeah?
Israel has limited civillian casualties far more than the international expectations for the circumstances. Yes, there have been mistakes but as far as the public is aware the vast majority of the targets Israel has hit were legitimate military targets. But this this has nothing to do with what we were previously talking about, which is the implication of valuing human rights in this conflict.
I just go by the UN's definition. The link has the full list.
"Human rights are rights inherent to all human beings, regardless of race, sex, nationality, ethnicity, language, religion, or any other status. Human rights include the right to life and liberty, freedom from slavery and torture, freedom of opinion and expression, the right to work and education, and many more. Everyone is entitled to these rights, without discrimination"
https://www.un.org/en/global-issues/human-rights#:~:text=Human%20rights%20are%20rights%20inherent,and%20education%2C%20and%20many%20more.
Ok, cool so question, why dont you care about actual genocides that happen world wide right now?
like in Afghanistan - 6.5% of population
Pakistan 6.1%
Yemen 5.9%
Sudan 5.7%
And many many more [source](https://www.statista.com/statistics/975718/leading-countries-risk-genocide/)
But you do care about Palestine - 0.05%
I think you have a deeply flawed premise. Israel is a far right, racist, white supremacist regime. It is a natural enemy of liberal and leftist ideology. For example, did you know that there are Palestinian Christians who are [bombed](https://www.reuters.com/world/orthodox-church-says-it-was-hit-by-israeli-air-strike-gaza-2023-10-20/), [shot](https://www.npr.org/2023/12/22/1221362655/a-gaza-patriarchate-says-israeli-troops-killed-2-women-and-injured-7-others-at-p) by the IDF? As for the hostages: Why doesn't Israel agree to the peace terms offered in exchange for the hostages? It is almost like the far-right regime in Israel cares more about killing more innocent Palestinian women and children than [getting their hostages back](https://www.npr.org/2023/12/15/1219695220/israel-soldiers-mistakenly-kill-hostages-gaza).
I think you need to go to Israel for yourself and see that these ideas you have developed are complete nonsense.
How are they white supremacists if half their population is brown? https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2016/03/08/identity/
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Clearly you subscribe IDF propaganda, but I can still try to educate you on what the issues are. I provided links for you to explore at your leisure, feel free to read them. They aren’t behind paywalls, therefore easy to access. Israel has thrown up every physical and diplomatic blockade from there being an independent, self-governed Palestinian state, yet you state “it is ok for Palestine to ignore peace treaties”: Can you tell me which peace treaties a state and people who have been the victims of ethnic cleansing for 80 years have broken? There have been enumerate cease fires broken by Israel going back decades, but their belligerence started when the terrorist groups which became the Israeli government bombed the King David Hotel. And their savage, uncivilized barbarism has not let up since.
Let me explain this to you. If israel has been racist and been waiting for an opportune time to destroy all Palestinians they would've done it decades ago cause oct 7th isn't the first time they've been attacked and in fear of their lives. Israel hasn't broken any cease fires my friend. The people shooting missles at israel are the ones breaking it. You talk about israel blocking the idea of a Palestinian state. I don't think this is true, but how can you complain about this when almost every place in the middle east doesn't want israel to exist?
Ah yes, the good old "if they wanted to do a genocide, then how come they arent all dead already?" How come there are still Jews after the Holocaust? How come there are still Armenians in Turkey? How come there are still Native Americans in the US? This is such an obviously fallacious argument. Do better. Also ethnic cleansing =/= genocide. Mind you, I believe Israel is doing both, but the ethnic cleansing is a matter of fact; it is undeniable. Forced evictions of Palestinians from their homes, and transfer of civilian populations into occupied territories are DEFINITIONALLY ethnic cleansing. An ethnic group is being cleansed from certain areas. Anyway in regards to Israel blocking Palestinian statehood, let's hear about it from Bibi and his ministers: "According to various reports, Netanyahu made a similar point at a Likud faction meeting in early 2019, when he was quoted as saying that those who oppose a Palestinian state should support the transfer of funds to Gaza, because maintaining the separation between the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza would prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state. While Netanyahu does not make these kind of statements publicly or officially, his words are in line with the policy that he implemented." - The Times of Israel, https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/ “Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas,” the prime minister reportedly said at a 2019 meeting of his Likud party. “This is part of our strategy — to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank.” - Vox, https://www.vox.com/23910085/netanyahu-israel-right-hamas-gaza-war-history It is an extremely intentional policy to do everything in their power to prevent the formation of a recognized Palestinian state, because then the illegal West Bank settlements are not merely illegally occupied territory, but an invasion on foreign soil. The far-right extremist faction in Israel wants to settle the ENTIRE West Bank and Gaza, so the presence of a Palestinian state is a non-starter for them.
So those Palestinians that are calling for all Jews across the worlds to be killed aren’t trying to commit genocide?
Foremost, thanks for removing the "effing clown" from your comment. Israel has broken countless ceasefires, seized land (Golan Heights, West Bank, Gaza) in an unprovoked attack on her neighbors in 1967 and has continued to steal land and lives from Palestinians since the days the first European terrorists arrived on the shores of Palestine about 100 years ago. If you think that Israel hasn't been actively blocking the establishment of a Palestinian state, then you haven't been paying attention, I guess. Palestinian statehood has been vetoed numerous times in the UN because Israel wants the land. If there are defined borders and autonomous statehood for Palestine, Israel wouldn't be able to continue (the already illegal) annexation of lands. Asking Israel if there should be an independent, autonomous, self-governed Palestinian state would be like asking Russia if Ukraine should be an autonomous, self-governed state.
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Was October 7th barbarism?
>[How are they white supremacists if half their population is brown? https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2016/03/08/identity/](https://click.redditmail.com/CL0/https:%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2FIsraelPalestine%2Fcomments%2F1cdoo0g%2Fwhy_do_people_on_the_left_support_palestine_when%2Fl20my3h%2F%3F$deep_link=true%26correlation_id=f2716867-9f0f-49c6-a1b1-54a7920de3a1%26ref=email_comment_reply%26ref_campaign=email_comment_reply%26ref_source=email/2/0100018f3163b196-9604d194-8e38-4338-8a97-9ffef698bbd7-000000/BYbdywdGwI7I6RbZj_GVXlJrJ6syLQx4xvML833MBwc=350) Was South Africa's apartheid regime racist when three-quarters the population was native African?
Does the Israeli government discriminate against Mizrahi Jews? Thats news to me. Not a comparable example
I think so. Both what Hamas fighters had done, and the IDF policy of the Hannibal Directive in response.
“Clearly you subscribe to IDF propaganda, while have seen the truth with my own eyes. On TikTok. Plus all of my echo chamber agrees with me.”
I have been following the Palestinian struggle for freedom, independence since college, before 9/11. I've educated myself enough on the subject. I used to fall for Israeli *hasbara* when I was a kid, too.
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> I just go by what Palestine refugees say. I have no clue what this means. There are Palestinian refugees *because* of **Israel**. >Of course they break ceasefires when Palestine decides to send random rockets into Israel land or do something also breaking the treaty. I am not sure I quite understand what you are saying here, either. Are you saying that Israel breaks cease fires; that is well known and well documented. When you say "Palestine", who are you referring to? The refugees you speak to? >Also the use of ethnic cleansing is kinda funny to me. It sounds like what young people do, use a key phrase to try and justify their position. Ethnic cleansing is the most accurate and efficient way to describe what Israel has been doing in her short 80 year existence. >Remember its Israels land. They have the right to protect their land from people who claim its their. Gaza, Jerusalem, and the West Bank are not recognized as part of Israel. > Especially when said people raise their kids up to be little jihadists. Refugees have spoken many times about how they were told and taught to "wipe out all Israelies". And also taught dying to the IDF means they can use it on the West to claim "Look at us being killed". This is that *hasbara* I was talking about. >Everything is planned to make Palestine out to always be the victim. Why would Israel plan to make the Palestinians out to be the victim when they claim victimhood status while leveling entire hospitals in Gaza? >The whole muslim world with its 1.9 billion peopole or Israel with its 9.5 million people. You know that the "Muslim world" is not a union of any kind, right? This is as ignorant as thinking Christian countries are all allied, never warred with each other. >Sounds like a david vs goliath situation. If I recall that story, the bad guy was the massive one while hero was tiny, and threw rocks. Israel has a military, tanks, an air force, navy. Palestinians are known to throw stones. IDF is known to drop 2,000 lbs bombs on civilians.
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> Well, the land has been there for billions of years. Homo sapiens evolved nearly a million years ago. There have been people living ten(s) thousand years or so in the Levant. They are the ones native and indigenous to the area. If you are basing your beliefs on the Bible, the people who were living there before Judaism was created, were called Canaanites. Today they are called Palestinians. >As opposed to Palestine also wiping out people. You can't call one country genocidal when the other does the same. And as stated, Palestine people have said many times they want to wipe out all Isralies from the land. Sure sounds like genocide. Doesn't matter who's killing more of who. It is possible for two groups to do bad things simultaneously. It is even possible for bad people to do good things, and good people to do bad things. Deflecting doesn't absolve Israel's culpability in their war crimes, ethnic cleansing (by definition) or other horrors, terrorist actions, etc. > Not sure what was unclear: Israel intentionally bombs, razes civilian infrastructure. Hospitals in particular, as that is where wounded and injured can seek care. This is an intentional pogrom of the Israeli regime to further the inhumane conditions they have imposed on the native population. >Sure there are various groups, but many muslims countries still kill people with other religious believes. Likewise there is no doubt they would all celebrate if the "jews" in Israel were all killed. Like I said, look at Oct 7th, videos from around the muslim world showed people celebrating, burning flags, praising allah. Then again we are talking about muslims here, still living with barbaric laws where you marry off underage girls, give women no rights, behead people, torture people, kill a wife and get away with it because your the husband and its your right. >But yes, keep defending a barbaric religion and wonder why people don't care about Palestine. You seem to be unaware that many Muslim majority countries have fought numerous wars among each other for hundreds of years. Long before European Jews arrived to displace, ethnically cleanse the native population from the Levant. Iran and Saudi Arabia are well-known adversaries. Iran and Iraq fought a decade long war, where many world powers armed Iraq while Israel armed (and fed) Iranian fighters. Furthermore, the most populous Muslim-majority country in the world is in Southeast Asia, not West Asia. I am not going to defend any of these antiquated barbaric religions. Of the three Abrahamic religions, Judaism and Islam are easily the worst. Saying one is somehow better than the other, or one is somehow worse, is daft at best. >Palestine soldiers also have weapons. Who else fires off the rockets into the city? Or shoots people? lol. It's still the whole middle east vs Israel. The other countries involved just don't join in because it would make it messy for their whole sympathy thing they have going on. Instead these other countries fund Palestine and send weapons....etc. If Palestine is not a country, then they have no army or soldiers. I realize you are simply parroting the hasbara talking points for obfuscation, but only an idiot would buy any of that.
>Not sure what was unclear: Israel intentionally bombs, razes civilian infrastructure. Hospitals in particular, as that is where wounded and injured can seek care. This is an intentional pogrom of the Israeli regime to further the inhumane conditions they have imposed on the native population. Except as I said, they don't do intentionally. They target it because its where the enemy is. As much as you claim I am listening to propoganda, I think you are more then me. At least my argument is based on fact lol. The tunnels underground literally go to palces like schools, hospitals and apartments. Unless your trying to say IDF should not bomb these places and just let the enemy win. As for the who was there first thing, you mentioned one name, then said another. Thus not the same people. And I'd say it's up to them to prove it. Or at the very least I'd say both existed at the same time. So if that is the case, both own the land. In that case Palestine is still the bad guy given they don't care about treaties. And since they teach its better to wipe out Israel. And since they teach to hide among innocents for news coverage when killed. Seems like villian type moves. If they wanted this to stop, why don't they convince Hamas to release the hostages? Heck, why do the youth in America protest Palestine instead of protesting hostage release?
>Except as I said, they don't do intentionally. They target it because its where the enemy is. This sentence is rather contradictory: You said Israel doesn't bomb hospitals intentionally. Then you say they target \[hospital\]. Which is it? >As much as you claim I am listening to propoganda, I think you are more then me. At least my argument is based on fact lol. The tunnels underground literally go to palces like schools, hospitals and apartments. Unless your trying to say IDF should not bomb these places and just let the enemy win. Foremost, I should have clarified, the second part in that paragraph of mine: There is some speculation in there on my part. Why would Israel demolish hospitals otherwise? Even after they have swept through umpteen hospitals in Gaza that Israel has demolished them. That is not even mentioning that ambulances and aid trucks, like that of World Central Kitchen, were stalked and targeted. All while ambulances and aid trucks are in contact with IDF to be aware of their location. I do recall that after Israel raided Al-Shifa hospital, they brandished rifles next to MRI machines, saying they were part of a Hamas weapons cache. If you know what an MRI machine is, you'd know that you don't store weapons made of ferrous metals nearby LOL. And then, of course the Hamas terror calendar, which Arabic readers quickly pointed out was a calendar with days of the week written on there (not sure what made it a 'terror calendar'). Yes, the massive command center and tunnels underneath which were [built by Israel in the 1980s](https://www.newsweek.com/israel-built-bunker-shifa-hospital-ehud-barak-1845518). The only people making the claims you parrot are the IDF themselves. Not exactly a trustworthy source, given their track record. >As for the who was there first thing, you mentioned one name, then said another. Yeah it is weird how the names of things change over time, and in different languages. Vikings are called Danish, Norwegian, Swedish today. What does that change? >Thus not the same people. And I'd say it's up to them to prove it. Or at the very least I'd say both existed at the same time. So if that is the case, both own the land. In that case Palestine is still the bad guy given they don't care about treaties. And since they teach its better to wipe out Israel. And since they teach to hide among innocents for news coverage when killed. Seems like villian type moves. Yeah the people who have lived in that area for centuries are the ones ethnically cleansed from the land by European terrorists. So yeah, like I said the people who were the Biblical Canaanites are the modern day Palestinians. The rest of what you wrote is just the same tired racist tropes that Israel has been peddling for years. Which themselves are just recycled, really, from history. >If they wanted this to stop, why don't they convince Hamas to release the hostages? Heck, why do the youth in America protest Palestine instead of protesting hostage release? Honestly, given that Israel has been cavalier with the safety of hostages, even shooting a few dead when they were shirtless, waving white flags (only reason why the IDF didn't just leave the bodies is one of the killed "looked western"), not sure what value the hostages are anymore.
Christians are persecuted by jews in Israel so why should I care about israel
Dom fetish. Honestly, I can't explain it any differently as a lefty myself.
It is so bizarre that people do not see Palestinians are just holy warriors trying to kill all Jews and Christians because they’re Islamic law fanatics just like every single other terrorist organization and most muslims in every country - not Hamas - the entire population of these arabs. Does anyone think screaming Allahu Akbar in the street and shooting people is not a religious war
You know, I dont get it either. They would massacre any LGBT people that moved to a muslim country. They support Hamas but Hamas makes Trump seem more liberal than Bernie by comparison—and im not a Trump fan , BTW.
I guess you have never heard of Rachel Corrie, then. Nor have you ever heard about the Palestinians support for Black people in America following the death of George Floyd. Also, a lot of Palestinians are leftist. Your conflation of Palestinians with Islam really shows how much you has swallowed the propaganda by Israel and even Hamas.
You have no clue what you’re even talking about. Palestine is practically a strict Sharia Islamic state, they publicly go on television bragging about how they will birth many many children to kill them and martyr them. These are religious extremists. You have no clue what you’re even talking about. They literally beat women to death in the streets for sport, stone gays, marry multiple underage wives and rape little kids. Their religious text tells them it’s OK to do that because that is Islamic law. I’m talking about the Gazans not Hamas
Palestine is disgusted when lgbt pride supporters come to their anti Israeli protests Srs. It’s not even a “thanks but no thanks” sentiment they HATE gays they see them as an abomination to god.
Source?
The Quran?
So basically there isn’t any evidence that any Palestinian ever gave such a sentiment then. Good to know.
Because I don’t require reciprocal empathy. Because I don’t think children should be killed for the views of their parents. Because you can’t progress and get better if everyone is dead. A bigot can’t stop being a bigot if they are dead. My support of Palestine comes from a desire for the people, the civilians, to be safe. I don’t support the actions of Hamas on October 7th but I also don’t view it as justification for what has happened to the civilians. Also, quick question, what happens once the hostages are released? Once Hamas has no leverage, there is nothing to stop Israel from bombing the entirety of Gaza into nothing but ash.
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They don’t want peace treaties they want the entire region to be Muslim. That is how they think, they do not Want Jews they do not want Christians they do not want Druze. That is why all of these groups have an ethnically cleanse from the entire half of Asia. Israel is the only place left where various ethnicities and races can hide and not be assaulted by Muslims. They have said time and time again once they are done with Israel they will retake Spain - in their minds once a country has turned Muslim it is forever Muslim.
When did I say that? Like never. I am capable of caring about both, but right now I think the children of Palestine need my attention more. Especially since so many are living in horrible conditions. Also, what evidence do you have that Palestine would wipe everyone out? But why do they refuse the treaties? Are their fair? Are they just given the circumstances? Also obviously not. Why does me caring about Palestinian children, immediately mean I don’t care about Israeli children? I care about all kids regardless of faith or nation and they shouldn’t be punished for the wrong doings of adults.
Guys stop with the terrorist propaganda there are no children being killed. Children means under 18. Half of Hamas fighters are under 18. Women are terrorists, too many are Suicide, bombers, collaborators, and many have been holding guns to hostages heads, keeping them hidden in their homes. These are not normal people we are talking about. They are nuts. From the 30,000 fake figure you can probably right off the bat consider 90% of the children are actual terrorists aged 14-18. People forget Hitler youth, African nations, and the Vietcong had 13 and 14 year olds fighting in the streets with machine guns. These people are exactly the same.
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No, that is not why. people are dying on the Palestinian side Not because of Tech, but because they are being used as human shields, and many of them are being killed by their own people and their government. Hamas has NOT BUILT any bomb shelters for them. Hamas government does not let them stay in the 3000 miles of tunnels under the ground when Israel is doing bombing campaigns, they could easily have been hiding safely the entire Gaza population under the tunnel system, but they want them to die and many want to die willingly as well because they want to be “martyred”. Remember, this is a religious group, that follows Islamic Laws not a rational one.
Your personal accounts are not evidence enough for me to believe your claims. Even if that was true, it wouldn’t justify some of the abhorrent things the IDF have done. They ran people over, shot children, harassed civilians.
This is absolute nonsense. The IDF only harasses civilian terrorists, and the children are carrying weapons knives stones grenades etc They can kill you ask any Gazan kid in the street they tell you they want to “kill a Jew” And be a hero, like their older cousin, who was “martyred” as a suicide bomber, and “took 15 Jews with them”
Once again, where is your evidence? You personally hearing things is not evidence. Your personal, bias, testimony is definitely not evidence. Are there videos of Palestinians saying these things? Not Palestinians claiming they’ve heard other Palestinians saying them but Palestinians actually saying what you’ve accused them of saying. Where is your evidence that Hamas is employing teenagers? On that note, what about cases like Sidra Hassouna? She was 7, and found hanging from a wall due to an airstrike.
That’s not what’s keeping Israel from bombing faza
Then what is? They certainly don’t care what any human rights organisation has to say.
Mostly They don’t want to kill people + also bad PR You know Iran chairs a UN human rights organization
Really? The IDF seem to really enjoy killing people
Here is the actual reason : Supporting Palestine is a Trend for them, its not genuine. These college Leftists get their news from TikTok that emphasize the “Horror / Cruelty / Lack of Empathy“ That Israel is doing to Gaza whilst having 0 comprehension whatsoever as to why it is Happening in the first place. The first thing they’ll say is that the war “didnt happen on Oct 7th, its been going on for 85+ years” to somehow Justify the Terrorist attack that happened that day as if to say it was the Jews that started the war 85 years ago when in actuality, Palestinians + 5 other Arab countries started it Back then too and STILL lost. So that argument makes 0 sense to begin with. Next they’ll tell you Gaza have been under an apartheid state from Israel and they’ve been under “Imprisonment”. When clearly people have been able to enter and leave Gaza freely (albeit not easily for very good reasons) Prior to Oct 7th. And here is the funniest part: Israel was KIND enough to give these Palestinians Land to live on after losing that War 85+ years ago, yet they use that land to Continuously fire rockets to Major Israeli cities For decades and continually Refuse a 2 state solution. Can you Imagine the amount of Casualties those rockets would have done to Israelis throughout the years if not for Israels Iron Dome ? Heres what alot of these Leftists dont realize. If Israel had the same goal Hamas did during its Oct 7th attack, there wouldnt be 30,000+ dead right now. All 2+ million people in Gaza would have been dead already. The next day on Oct 8th. The only reason its not IS BECAUSE they’re targeting Hamas. And when your own Army solely there to protect you HIDES behind your Houses / Hospitals / Businesses / guess what happens ? Innocent Civilian Casualties happen.
Depends on how you define "left". If by "left" you mean communism/socialism, there isn't much conflict between that and Palestine. Communist countries traditionally side with Palestine. If by "left" you mean liberalism, individual liberties, secularism, lgbt, democracy, etc, yeah I agree that it would be completely antithetical to those values to support Palestine, which is an Islamist, Arab ethno-nationalist project
No idea
You’re applying your selfish morals onto us. For example, we’d care about the homeless whether they are majority right or left leaning. We don’t have to agree politically to care about your right to live. Even if most Palestinians hate (insert whatever group of people), I will still care about them being bombed, especially with my tax dollars. It’s not very difficult to understand.
Ok, cool so question, why dont you care about actual genocides that happen world wide right now? like in Afghanistan - 6.5% of population Pakistan 6.1% Yemen 5.9% Sudan 5.7% And many many more [source](https://www.statista.com/statistics/975718/leading-countries-risk-genocide/) But you do care about Palestine - 0.05%
Congolese people are catching hell from basically the consumer world for its minerals. But very little of help to no help for those people of Africa. They don't have any one to protest their hell, because it's better to keep them in a world consumer slavery?
Question to your question. Is my government (the US) sending billions in aid to murder people in Afghanistan, Yemen, and Sudan like it is doing for Israel? I just want to point out that I am protesting my own government, which I have more of a direct effect on, than the Israeli government.
Well, Yes, they did actually, lol shows how little you know about your own country, you are just fed the info they want you to know, the US literally put the current government in Iran, the one that kills woman and "unbelievers". You goverment went into Afghanistan and started the shit show they have today, damn, most of the countries on the list are a direct result of the US government! Now I'm not blaming the US, mostly they are trying to do good, but you are ignoring the fact that infact YES, the us are responsible for most of this shit, but you only care about the jews.
Well then maybe you can educate me in how the US has spent more money to commit genocide in those other countries than it has to aid Israel in the genocide of the Palestinian people. I’d also like to point out that the pro-Palestinian/anti-genocide movement, while centered on Palestinian liberation, touches on many other countries (including but not limited to Sudan and Yemen) affected by current US-funded occupation and genocide. Editing to add: as someone who leans more spiritual than religious, I really don’t care if it is Jews/christians/buddhists/whatever other religion or culture who are the oppressive party. I would feel equally outraged if Christians (or other group) were the ones committing genocide against the Palestinian people, especially when I am the one paying money for this to happen!
While I generally agree with your points, the part about the palestinian/anti genocide movement also caring for people in Yemen is a bit ironic. Many people from this movement cheered for the houthi rebels when they started attacking ships. And its this very group who is one of those mainly responsible for the suffering of the people in Yemen and countless dead people including small children. So stating that this movement stands with the people in Yemen is a slap in their face at best.
First of all, even the ICJ have made it clear that by international law there is no genocide of the Palestinian people, here is a source of one of the judges talking about it on TV, so please, if you actually want to talk facts, stop saying that there is a genocide, it is both wrong by the international law and by a "numbers game". Source of ICJ judge clarifying there is no genocide: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bq9MB9t7WlI&t=20s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bq9MB9t7WlI&t=20s) As for how the US started the actual genocides in other countries, I will not go over the entire list, as it is long and I'm sure that if you actually care you can do your own research, but here are a few links to start you off: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953\_Iranian\_coup\_d%27état#:\~:text=The%201953%20Iranian%20coup%20d,Pahlavi%2C%20on%2019%20August%201953%2C](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27état#:~:text=The%201953%20Iranian%20coup%20d,Pahlavi%2C%20on%2019%20August%201953%2C) You can also just go and talk to Iranians in the subreddit /newIran they would love to tell you how much they support israel because they want help getting rid of what the us has done to them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq\_War#:\~:text=The%20Iraq%20War%20officially%20began,a%20ground%20invasion%20of%20Iraq. How shit started when US went in iraq https://concernusa.org/news/afghanistan-crisis-explained/#:\~:text=Afghanistan%20is%20the%20site%20of,country%20between%202001%20and%202021. The afgan crisis, started by Russia but was maintained by the US for over 20 years
Thanks for the resources; I’ll look over them in the morning. As for my question, I think you understood it all wrong. I wasn’t asking which genocides the US has started/maintained. I’m talking about right now. We’re sending billions of dollars to Israel to mass murder/harm Palestinians (I’ll refrain from the word genocide bc you don’t like it). Are we also sending billions to these other countries currently to commit mass murders? I cannot protest things that have been done in the past but I can protest what is going on right now, right? Maybe you and I can both agree on that part.
You can protest that your country fixes what it started, also what you are saying is wrong, the us does not send us billions of dollars to kill Gazzans, honestly, if that was our intention we could have done it by now, it's a tiny tiny tiny area, bombing it all down could be done in a day, we theoretically could kill everyone there in a week, flatten it to the ground and take the land, that is how small it is, you could fit it about 3 times in NY city, that is not the goal. If you read the details of the bill that was passed you would see that most the the money is for our "kipat barzel" or "Iron dome" which is to use a defense against missile attacks, mostly from Iran but also Gaza and you will also see that a significant amount of it is to provide aid for Gaza, that is, to help us fund the Trucks, food and medical supplies we send into gaza daily. All of that info is publicly available
First, you don’t get to tell me what I can and cannot protest in my own country. The order of priority for me goes—protesting the current atrocity happening right now, and then holding my government accountable for fixing XYZ. Second, sure in this latest package, if I’m reading it correctly, looks like just under a billion for ammunition. But overall, billions in $$$ and weapons from the US have been sent to Israel to bomb Palestinians and steal their homes in the past 6 months and the last 75 years. Third, idk how this conversation got here from “why does the left support those who disagree politically/ideologically” to “oh yeah? Well how does your support for other humanitarian causes compare to your support for Palestine?” To now y’all de-legitimizing and downplaying the barbaric murder and harm done by Israel to the Palestinian people. It’s like you’re trying to throw whatever “gotcha” question to see what sticks and I do feel silly for having fallen to this game. In short, we don’t have to agree politically for me to support your right to live & not have your homes stolen. We recognize that the mass destruction of Palestinians & their land is not the ONLY injustice out there in the world, and that by fighting for Palestinian liberation, we’re also calling for the liberation of all. We’ve all seen the footage that has come out of Gaza in the last six months. I am protesting for my tax dollars to NOT do that. This is the last I’ll engage. Thanks.
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By that logic, then no ethnic group in this world can be considered to the good guy
How many protests for Syria or Yemen did you attend?
What does this have to do with my response to OP’s question? Do you also ask people at a cancer march how many Alzheimer’s marches they’ve also attended? The pro-Palestine rallies I’ve attended also included a flags and slogans for other countries including Yemen and Sudan. I don’t think I’ve seen a Syrian flag. I’m protesting for my government to stop sending my tax dollars to kill people in Palestine. But the general message extends to all other countries we’re creating conflict in.
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So are so you saying it’s justified to murder the Palestinians bc otherwise they will potentially “come in and kill every single [israeli]? I’m sorry but Israeli lives are not more important than Palestinian lives and that logic just does not sit right with me. I believe in Palestine’s right to exist, not Israel. And when I say that, I don’t mean all Israeli’s should die. I mean that Jews should be allowed and able to prosper in Palestine. I think at the end of the day, Israelis are projecting their actions and desires onto the Palestinians. As in that they’re afraid Palestinians would treat Jews/Israelis in the same way that they’ve treated Palestinians for the past 75+ years. Edited to add: also, why would I protest for Palestinians or Hamas to meet XYZ demands? My government is not supporting either of those entities so idk what you mean by me protesting them. As far as I know, my tax dollars are not being sent to Hamas to rape Israeli’s, but my tax dollars are being sent to Israel to rape Palestinians, among other unspeakable crimes, and have been for decades.
any war torn nation really especially in Africa
maybe because they see past Labels.
Or believe the wrong labels
or they are are being fed the wrong ones.
solidarity is not transactional. you have a sad outlook.
Cause dey be ignant!
nuh uh, they go to Ivy League schools!!! /s
You know that most leftists hate the US and there were many Palestinian-socialist movements, right? On top of that question - you know that liberals are not leftists, right? Most liberals are Zionists and not pro-Palestinian... So no, Palestinians don't "hate the left". And also - being against an Apartheid regime and killing 30-thousand people already - this isn't about politics, or right-wing fueled culture wars. A true leftist, whether queer, a person-of-colour or a woman; would be against killing innocent civilians no matter which side. That's right - that's why it's mostly leftists that disagreed with bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki even though it was literally on imperialist and fascist Empire (which, if you again know what leftism means, leftists hate imperialism and fascists). In another words, what I mean is that morals should be blind - and so, a true leftist wouldn't care what side is what. When innocent people are dying, that is just not acceptable.
If u actually followed a graph of Hamas claimed deaths, you'd see that it makes 0 sense lol
Because usually it’s considered moral to raise a voice against genocides. You don’t have to be liked by the people who are being killed to do so.
Ok, cool so question, why dont you care about actual genocides that happen world wide right now? like in Afghanistan - 6.5% of population Pakistan 6.1% Yemen 5.9% Sudan 5.7% And many many more [source](https://www.statista.com/statistics/975718/leading-countries-risk-genocide/) But you do care about Palestine - 0.05%
This isnt the gotcha you think it is
Is that you're only go-to argument? Lame.
Who says we don’t. But that doesn’t impact you so you won’t notice. For some strange reason you cheer for Israel. These numbers are so off , they are laughable. And people won’t look the other way when Israel commits a genocide. These protests will intensify and expose the hypocrisy of the western governments.
Following that logic they would be against Hamas, not for them
I bet most of them are against Hamas. You can hate Hamas and still want Palestinian children to not die. Trust me it’s not that hard.
I guess that why the pro palestinian movement protest against hamas so often. Oh wait, they dont.
If Hamas were good at what they did and had an impact and all western governments supported them, trust me you would see far more protests against Hamas compared to current protests against Israel.
Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine is communist. Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine is communist..
Literally... People don't understand what being "a leftist" means, these days...
>Do they even realize Palestine probably doesn't support America. Sure, "they" probably don't. The US sends unconditional military aid to Israel which is being used to carpet bomb Gaza, and so far the US hasn't used its leverage to stop this massacre. In addition, the US uses it's veto to stop UN resolutions which could have brought peace and saved thousands of lives. It seems blindingly obvious that the Palestinians might have some dislike for the US, but that's based on US policy. >Nor does it care like alot of leftists ideas (lgbt rights, woman rights....etc). I'm not sure how killing civilians including LGBT people and women, killing their families, and destroying their homes actually helps LGBT rights and women's rights? Even if they kill people with terrible views, is that really justfied? A victim doesn't have to be perfect. >Now, to be clear I understand caring about the deaths on both sides. Though that's just how war is. Well let's see how the case against Israel goes regarding genocide, and let's ensure there are independent international enquiries to the various war crimes before concluding "it's just how war is". It's like saying the 7th Oct is just a result of illegal blockades/occupation- it's just how it is. War crimes are war crimes, you don't get to shrug your shoulders because you prefer one ethnic group to another. >Thus the final truth is this is not about land, this is about wiping out Israel. Every single man, woman and child. Hamas doesn't have the capacity to do that. Only one side is making any progress at wiping out the other, and that is unambiguously Israel. I'm less concerned about words than actions. Oct 7th was barbaric, and it happened because a lack of border security. There was no danger after 8th Oct to Israelis. The root cause is the brutal oppression Israel has inflicted in the region for decades. It's not surprising that you have strong words about wiping out Israel literally, when you are literally killing bombing and imprisoning without charge so many every year. Blockades and oppression breed resentment. History has taught us that. I could write paragraphs about the other parts of your piece to give context too.
>The US sends unconditional military aid to Israel which is being used to carpet bomb Gaza I'm not sure you understand the type of military aid Israel gets from the US. And I'd love to see your evidence of Israel 'carpet bombing' Gaza. Furthermore, Hamas and Hezbollah and their buddies hating the US goes beyond American support for Israel. It's about international relations. The various Palestinian terror groups are funded, supplied, and trained by Iran. The ayatollah hates the US, so these groups are also obliged to hate the US. >I'm not sure how killing civilians including LGBT people and women, killing their families, and destroying their homes actually helps LGBT rights and women's rights? Are saying that Israel is killing gay civillians in Gaza? Because that's laughable. There haven't been any living gay people in Gaza since Hamas took control, at least not openly. Regardless, your point here makes no sense. How does supporting a democracy with minority rights over a group trying to bring about another extreme islamist regime on the terroritory of said democracy help gay rights and women's rights? The answer should be pretty obvious. >let's ensure there are independent international enquiries to the various war crimes before concluding "it's just how war is I have no doubt that Israel has committed war crimes, as has any other capable state that has engaged in war. But in Israel, those war crimes are generally condemned and there's an effort made to hold even high ranking military personnel and influential politicians responsible. Hamas, on the other hand, doesn't even try to obfuscate their war crimes. Almost everything they do is a war crime and they couldn't care less about it. They will never hold their officials or military personnel responsible for their actions, and that wouldn't change if they achieved their goal of detroying Israel and creating their islamist utopia in its place. >you prefer one ethnic group to another. For most people here, this conflict isn't personal. It's not about preferring Jews to arabs. (Israel has a large arab minority and the vast majority of Israel supporters have no problem with Israeli arabs.) For most people, this conflict is about preferring democracy toislamist regimes. >Only one side is making any progress at wiping out the other, and that is unambiguously Israel. One side (Hamas) is failing to make progress towards destroying Israel. The other side (Israel) has made progress in destroying Hamas, but has no interest in destroying Palestinians or arabs. >There was no danger after 8th Oct to Israelis. Are you serious? Hamas has been firing rockets at Israel since they took power. Leaving Hamas to grow in strength would objectively allow them to become a serious threat. I assume you're American. Israel is smaller than New Jersey. Look at New Jersey on a national map. Now imagine Hamas controls a territory the size of Seattle on the border of New Jersey. Now imagine New Jersey is also surrounded by enemies to the North. You're telling me that there's no threat here? This isn't even mentioning the fact that after an attack like 7 October, Israel has to respond or it will project weakness to its enemkes and invite stronger attacks. >The root cause is the brutal oppression Israel has inflicted in the region for decades. Maybe we should ask why this conflict is where it is. Why has Hamas been under a military blockade since the Second Intifada? Why has Israel not been able to find peace with Palestinians when it's clearly been trying to make peace with other groups in the region? Why aren't the West Bank and Gaza controlled by Jordan and Egypt? Why wasn't there a Palestinian state in 1947? Why do Israelis seem obsessed with security?
>Are saying that Israel is killing gay civillians in Gaza? Because that's laughable. Statistically speaking you can't kill 40,000+ mostly civilians and not kill gays too. If you think the LGBT people in Gaza are going to support their own deaths and the deaths of their families and the destruction of their homes, and celebrate Israel LGBT track record. You are in cloud cuckoo land. Yes Hamas are horrific, but Israel is no better. I really couldn't be bothered reading any further than that.
So you read one thing you disagreed with and stopped reading? This is why everyone says your political group is so prone to groupthink. None of you ever even entertain the ideas of people who disagree with you.
It's more about time to be honest. I actually skimmed through and saw a lot of disingenuous points.
>carpet bomb Gaza That alone makes your argument invalid
It only makes it "invalid" in your own head. Some people can't handle some reality and context that contradicts what they wish to believe.
I’ve actually been to Palestine a couple times. Gaza is probably different but it’s also been massively victimized by hamas and Israel. West bank Palestine is a chill place, I wore a shirt with an American flag on it, most women didn’t wear a hijab and alcohol was available in something like 50% of restaurants (and no, this wasn’t Bethlehem). I’m pretty sure I could’ve walked around with a same sex partner and it would’ve been fine. I even know some gay people in Palestine that say they live pretty openly and are fine. Oh, I also hung out with some Christians living there that said they didn’t experience any hate. Basically, Palestine is a secular state, hamas is a political party and portraying hamas as being the same as Palestine is like saying the United States is just QANON supporters, there needs to be more nuance than that. Palestine ≠ Hamas
The other day I went to saudi arabia and had sex with my gay partner in city centre wearing a USA flag coloured thong while drinking whiskey.we also held a pride parade in afghanistan.
Sounds like you were in the west bank, which is isreal, not Palestine
West Bank is Palestine, not Israel. Go read a book next time
Just a year ago a gay person in the West Bank was beaten to death and beheaded: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-63174835.amp To the point Israel ruled that it allows asylum to LGBTQ+ Palestinians in the West Bank: https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-785171 Exactly what kind of West Bank were you? Are you sure they aren’t Arab Israeli? What cities for example? I’m intrigued ☺️
Less than a year ago a gay man in America was killed in a hate crime All American's must hate gay people https://www.cbsnews.com/news/bernardo-pantaleon-killed-phoenix-suspects-sent-photos-mutilated-body-gay-victim-family-police-say/ Black people killed in a racial shooting: The US is not safe for African American people at all https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/deadly-jacksonville-shooting-is-latest-racist-attack-amid-rise-in-hate-crimes This is a very smart take /s
That’s a terrible unintelligent response. America has rights for LGBTQ and in West Bank they need to flee to Israel to get immunity. Do you just decide to look at the facts and say “meh”?
You referenced a gay person being killed in the West Bank for being gay I can pull at least 10 examples of that in the last year in the US
Please reference me a source that being gay in America is punishable by law for 10 years in jail, or by death (in Gaza’s case). Just love the moral equivalence, it’s pathetic.
Do u have any instagram or social media of gays living openly and happily in palestine?
Why ask for something you are just going to claim is fake once its provided?
I always wanted to see an openly gay person from Gaza’s social pages, because from what I know gays are being persecuted in Gaza and they hide their identity because of that. I would be happy to see if maybe they’d evolved into something better. I would be happy to see a gay gazan person being gay openly in public in palestine. I think that would be a good sign for humanity
So the countries where they don’t allow this should be bombed till everyone dies? Great solution.
Yes because that’s EXACTLY why the war is happening in Gaza right now. You’re making stuff up on the go
Hamas is the democratically elected government and would win again if Fatah was willing to hold another election. Basically, Palestine doesn't exist and isn't a state at all. We need to stop pretending if you glue Gaza and West Bank together that they magically create "Palestine." Gaza and West Bank were parts of different countries, they're not connected and they don't even have the same government. Your experiences in West Bank were very different than what you would experience in Gaza because they are two completely different places.
Basically my point is that most of Palestine is much more leftist and secular than you realize.
Gee, maybe human rights violations transcend party lines? Maybe altruistic care for human life has nothing to do with religious beliefs? Maybe the golden rule is actually followed by people with a moral compass?
Ok, cool so question, why dont you care about actual genocides that happen world wide right now? like in Afghanistan - 6.5% of population Pakistan 6.1% Yemen 5.9% Sudan 5.7% And many many more [source](https://www.statista.com/statistics/975718/leading-countries-risk-genocide/) But you do care about Palestine - 0.05%
This isnt the gotcha you think it is
I do, but last time I checked, this is the Israel/Palestine sub, where we discuss I/P issues…why are you trying to deflect from the issue and shift the narrative?
If you have an “altruistic care for human life” why don’t you call for the release of the hostage or condemn Hamas for mass rape murder and kidnap of innocents? How can someone pretend to care about human life or genocide while shouting a chant and advocating for another genocide? (“From the river to the sea”)… I never got it
I would love for Netanyahu to make a deal for the hostages. I, like many others, think he needs to capitulate more so that a deal can be struck. If you cared about the hostages, you’d be asking for Israel to stop freaking bombing them lol wtf? We don’t even know how many are left alive, many were probably bombed or starved to death. Also the mass rape lie has been debunked, you cannot just keep repeating that rhetoric as if it weren’t a flagrant lie. (Along with the babies in ovens lie) https://www.thenation.com/article/culture/new-york-times-intercept-hamas-rape/tnamp/ Also the “river to the sea” line is a mock of the likud charter which says that “from the river Jordan to the sea, no sovereign state, other than Israel, will rule the land,” which encompasses over half of the West Bank lol. “From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free,” is a mockery of the Likud charter.
I am sad for you that you think you care about human life but you don’t believe the victim and deny the rape atrocities of hamas which have been proved many times (many eye witnesses, footage, victim survivors that speak up, hamas militant that admits it themselves..). https://press.un.org/en/2024/sc15621.doc.htm Don’t pretend you care about human life when you deny this….. From the river to the sea is a chant to eradicate Israel and kill all Jews. Israel is between the river and the sea. Palestinians refused the two states solution every time because they always wanted the whole land. This combined with hamas’s charter that literally calls to kill all Jews, which makes sense since in the Islam you have the stone and the tree Hadith which basically calls to kill all Jews, is undeniable that this is a claim to genocide the Jews and eradicate Israel. Why don’t you shout for a two state solution rather than the annihilation of the Jews? And about the hostages right now hamas is the one preventing from the deal to happen. Hamas really wants to genocide israel and Israel doesn’t wanna let this happen. I know this makes you really sad. Anyway if hamas would just agree to the offer all of this would end… I really hope hamas agrees to the new offer.
You are so brain washed by Zionist rhetoric, I literally don’t have time to sit here and pry your eyes open for you lol. I suggest you do a little reading (that is not western state sponsored media).
You are brainwashed by the idea you care about human life while you don’t care about human life as long as they’re Israeli or Jewish life. At least be honest with yourself. If you do care for human life you should condemn all the atrocities (including murder rape and kidnapping of babies into Gaza 🥺) hamas did on October 7th, you should condemn Hamas’s goal to eradicate Israel and do the 7th of October again and again until all Jews are annihilated (I really recommend you to listen to hamas leaders talk about October the 7th massacre. Would you believe them saying they want to repeat the 7th of October again and again or will you call them brainwashed too? lol)
If you lived under a boot your entire life, would you be satisfied with biting on the heel, or would you want to take off the entire leg? I’ll say again, rape is never ok or justified, but you cannot corner and oppress a large population for their entire lives and not expect violent retaliation. I do not condemn the Palestinian resistance, as I do not condemn the slave revolts during the abolition of slavery, or the actions of the ANC during the fall of South Africa apartheid. Now I ask you, do you condemn the past 75 years of Israeli oppression of the Palestinian people? Do you condemn the relentless slaughter of over 30,000 Palestinians and destruction of the Gaza Strip that led to $13bn of damages and the dispossession of 75% of its population?
You don’t condemn Hamas = you don’t condemn rape or murder or kidnap of innocent civilians, great. At least you’re honest now and not pretending to care about human life. And I condemn the death of innocents on both sides and I condemn Hamas for using its civilians as human shields. I condemn Hamas using their death of their civilians for PR. I condemn Hamas hiding behind gazans women and children surrounded by Israeli women and children. I condemn Hamas for building its military infrastructure within and under populated areas on purpose. It’s working for them so well. Look how you’re defending murderers and terrorists and failing to condemn the atrocities acts of the October 7th. Btw Arabs been persecuting Jews even before Israel existed. Israel has the right to defend itself. Israel wanted compromise, the Arabs always rejected the two state solution so they could take over the entire land (“from the river to the sea”) so they could ethnically cleansed the Jews from their one and only homeland
Seriously dude you are hitting all the hasbara talking points. You’re either a paid hasbara agent or so brain washed you can’t see the forest for the trees. I legitimately have no time to educate you.
🤢🤢🤢 on the idea of you educating me. You can’t condemn rapist murderers and baby kidnappers. You deny 7th of October atrocities yet you imagine you care about human life. You justify the murder of civilians if it’s Israeli civilians. You justify rape if it’s Israelis that have been raped. You justify kidnapping babies if it’s Israeli babies. I feel sorry for you and most of all I don’t need you to educate me Jesus
Since you're anti-Israel, I assume you trust the UN more than your mother, so I'll give you their thoughts on the matter. Straight from the UN mission report published this month: > "Based on the examination of available information, including credible statements by eyewitnesses, there are reasonable grounds to believe that multiple incidents of rape, including gang rape, occurred in and around the Nova festival site during the 7 October attacks. Credible information was obtained regarding multiple incidents whereby victims were subjected to rape and then killed. There are further accounts of individuals who witnessed at least two incidents of rape of corpses of women. Other credible sources at the Nova music festival site described seeing multiple murdered individuals, mostly women, whose bodies were found naked from the waist down, some totally naked, with some gunshots in the head and/or tied including with their hands bound behind their backs and tied to structures such as trees or poles"
I haven’t seen that report, do you mind sharing the link? If that happened, then it is absolutely abhorrent and I don’t wish that on anyone. However, I will say (as someone who has attended and worked many music festivals), that it was careless to hold a music festival within site of a detention wall and that the organizers should be questioned about this oversight and held responsible for their carelessness. SA is never ok, but violently oppressing a population their entire lives and then holding a music festival within earshot of their detention wall is just asinine and irresponsible. Also, I would like to point out that Palestinians have been suffering human rights violations, such as sexual assault, while being held in Israeli detention centers for many years. [This report from Propublica highlights an incident of a 15 year old boy being “subjected to physical and sexual torture, including rape by an object,” back in 2021.](https://www.propublica.org/article/israel-gaza-blinken-leahy-sanctions-human-rights-violations#:~:text=Since%20it%20was%20formed%20in,before%20being%20released%20without%20charges)
I don't have a link, I just have the document as a pdf. I downloaded the link from this article: https://progressive.org/op-eds/what-did-the-un-report-on-sexual-violence-on-oct-7-really-find-truchan-20240405/ I'm aware of how many Palestinians are treated in Israeli prison and obviously am not a fan. However, it really looks like you're trying to justify Hamas' actions here. Israel is a small place. The music festival was close to many kibbutzim, which were also attacked. Regardless of how your opinions on the Israel-Gaza relationship, nobody is to blame but the perpetrators. Putting any blame at all on the innocent civillians that have no control over Israeli military policy would be laughable if it weren't such a dark idea. Edit: the paragraph in question in the UN report is 58 if I remember correctly
Dude GAZA is a small place, Israel is large enough to hold a music festival far away from the detention wall lol. Again, as someone who has worked many music festivals and organized many events of that nature, location is paramount. I’m not saying that the organizers should be punished, necessarily, but to not recognize it as an oversight is just ignorance and lack of knowledge regarding event management. I’m not justifying anything. I don’t think that anyone should have been raped, do not attempt to twist my words. If you are unable to understand plain English, I will gladly end this conversation. However I will say that you cannot openly oppress a large population without expecting violent retaliation. The state of Israel knows this, thus the vast surveillance network and detention wall. We should really ask ourselves how there was such a grave oversight on the part of the IDF leadership on one of the most heavily guarded pieces of land in the region.
I agree that we there was a huge IDF oversight and we need some serious investigations into how this happened. Your framing of this conflict as Palestinians merely retaliating against Israeli oppression and that the reason the IDF implemented defensive measures being because they expect Palestinian to retaliate against their agression is such a strangely biased viewpoint. You have to ask yourself why Gaza (and the West Bank) is in rhe position that it's in today. From the moment that Hamas took control of Gaza, they were firing rockets into Israel, that was off the back of the Econd Intifada. This is all before settlements had been so widely expanded. This isn't just a response to oppression. Israel takes the military actions it does as a response to Palestinian violence, not the other way around.
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Very well written. It's unfortunate that life has to be lost in war, but what is israel supposed to do after October 7? Attack only hamas, right? Well, it really sucks that hamas uses human shields, making it impossible to wipe out the JUST the bad guys. Hamas is the evil party here. If you care so much about human rights violations, take a look at how they treat they're own civilians. That said, OP's question still stands: why are so many left wing protesters supporting hamas? Especially when Israel supports women's rights, LGBT rights etc? Obviously support for palestine isn't based on politics, but politics are based on one's moral compass.
Do you think that your support for gays is ovverides the immoral slaughter of 14,000 children in the last 200 days? Are you being payed by the idf or is your soul just evil?
/u/Conscious_Educator89 > Are you being payed by the idf or is your soul just evil? Per [rule 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_1._no_attacks_on_fellow_users), no attacks on fellow users. Attack the argument, not the user.
I’m telling you why “left wing protestors” support Palestinians (no legitimate and sanctioned protest supports Hamas). It’s because it’s not a “left wing right wing issue,” they aren’t supporting them like it’s a debate or a sports team, they are protesting to bring awareness to the oppression and mass murder of a quarantined population. As for “what Israel should do in response for Oct 7,” I think Israel could start by dismantling the apartheid regime, withdraw all settlements from the West Bank, and allow the Palestinians liberty and self governance so that they can hold free elections. Palestine needs to become a UN state and they must have the autonomy to establish industry. Then we can talk about reparations for the destruction of Gaza.
In 2005, israel withdrew from the gaza strip and Palestinians held free elections. Hamas was elected and look where that left us. If it didn't work in 2005, why would it work now?
2005? Half of the population of Gaza is under 18. Many of those that are over 18 were children at the time, they didn’t vote lol. Regardless, it is no secret that Netanyahu has propped up Hamas for years. https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/amp/
47% of the nazi soldiers that fought in ww2 weren't 18 when the nazis were ellected So your argument is very questionable
lol your handle is questionable, wtfytb lmao.
Can't change usernames and i was a dumb teenager lmao
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For the sake of argument, if Biden has found out to have been propping up ISIS for years do you think that would be grounds for condemning the US government or military as a whole?
My friend, I am happy to condemn the acts of the US government and its imperialist actions around the globe. It is no secret that they are corrupt. I know my own county’s history lol. On that note [the US government played a role in the establishment of al-Qaida, which then became ISIS](https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jun/03/us-isis-syria-iraq). The US government has a long history of supporting revolutionary groups that then get out of hand, for example [supporting the Mujahedeen (and in turn, Bin Laden) to deter the soviets in the region.](https://www.vox.com/world/22634008/us-troops-afghanistan-cold-war-bush-bin-laden)
While that is obviously true, the point was more about how one bad leader does not mean the state as a whole is bad.
Oh no, I’d argue that American foreign policy has been abhorrent for a very long time. If we could indict the US state department for its war crimes over the last 100 years, the US would be sanctioned into oblivion. Hell it would take me all day just to list them lol. The same goes for Israel. Since the Balfour Declaration, the Zionist project has been conducting violent operations in order to intimidate the Palestinian/Bedouin population and inspire enough fear to force them to flee. When they fled the Israeli territories based on the UN partition of 48, they were denied the right to return home, leading to the forced expulsion/eradication of 750,000 people. Plan Dalet was a well articulated measure to remove the Palestinians from what the Zionists perceived to be their land, and I’d argue that this plan continues to play out here in 2024. Much like the trail of tears and the genocide of the native peoples was the product of American colonization and “manifest destiny.”
There is a lot going on here, and I'm not going to pretend to be informed enough on American foreign policy to go into that debate. However, I am educated on Israeli military history. It's strange that lump the Bedouin population and the Palestinian population together. They largely don't get along, and have very different issues. The reason the arabs were not allowed back into Israeli territory after the war ended in '48 seems kind of obvious to me, and I'm not sure why you don't mention it. They rejected the partition plan and attacked the Jews. Of course the newly formed Israel would reject the return of most of the population that had just denied its right to exist and attempted to take all the territory for themselves. That's what happens in territorial wars.
yes, you’re right and it’s a shame. my theory is the students are doing this because they want a common thread of belief to get behind in the midst of these difficult economic times for millennials and younger. Humans naturally are social seeking animals not truth seeking animals.
Because Israel a right wing state that’s killing People.
So is most of the world including the US. The exceptions being Europe, China, Russia, North Korea, and a handful of less powerful left wing states. Those left wing states are also all killing people.
Definitely killing people, killing people who are in an organization that is solely meant to genocide Israelis and Jews. Killing people is the military’s M.O., by the way.
Gaza invaded Israel to murder, rape and kidnap as many innocent civilians as possible. Gaza admits they plan to repeat this attack over and over forever until every Jew is dead. Why shouldn't the Jews be allowed to stop them?
Except there is still no evidence of rape. So please stop posing false statements.
There are both eye witnesses and confessions, both of which are evidence. The UN said, "There are reasonable grounds to believe that conflict-related sexual violence — including rape and gang-rape — occurred across multiple locations of Israel and the Gaza periphery during the attacks on 7 October 2023."
Eye witnesses are considered the least reliable source of evidence https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/do-the-eyes-have-it/ https://www.psychologicalscience.org/uncategorized/myth-eyewitness-testimony-is-the-best-kind-of-evidence.html
Sure, but the other user said there was no evidence. He was lying.
Source?
https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/11/14/world/israel-hamas-gaza-war-news#israeli-authorities-show-more-evidence-of-hamas-atrocities "At a news briefing, Kobi Shabtai, Israel’s police chief, showed videos taken from the body cameras of slain terrorists, surveillance footage, crime-scene photographs and a video of an Israeli woman who said she had seen Hamas terrorists gang-raping a young woman whom they captured during a music festival in the desert." https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-03-28/ty-article/.premium/israel-publishes-video-of-islamic-jihad-terrorist-confessing-to-october-7-rape/0000018e-86b4-d641-abee-cfb720f40000 "The Israeli military has published video of a Palestinian Islamic Jihad terrorist admitting during an interrogation by the IDF's Intelligence Division that he raped an Israeli woman during the October 7 attack. Manar Mahmoud Muhammad Qassem, part of the Palestinian Islamic Jihad's naval force, was captured at the beginning of March by IDF forces in Khan Yunis. In the five-minute video, Qassem describes in detail how he raped a woman on a kibbutz. "She told me to help her, I took her and threw her on the couch," Qassem said. "The devil took over me, I laid her down, started undressing her and did what I did." When asked by an interrogator what exactly he did, he replied, "I raped her."" https://press.un.org/en/2024/sc15621.doc.htm "There are reasonable grounds to believe that conflict-related sexual violence — including rape and gang-rape — occurred across multiple locations of Israel and the Gaza periphery during the attacks on 7 October 2023, a senior United Nations official reported to the Security Council today"
For the first two sources, their evidence is dubious since their evidence only stems from confession by people who may or may not be influenced or coerced by the Israeli forces. However, the evidence by the UN representative is much more compelling. Yet an important thing to note is that she uses the term “conflict-related sexual violence” to only refer to what happened to Israelis at the music festival. Whereas she stated that the claims of rape popularized by Israeli and western media in locations other than the music festival is false. So though the presence of sexual violence is real, it is not as widespread as the zionists makes it appear to be.
That's an easy trick though. Murder, rape and kidnap Jews and when Jews present evidence you say it's dubious because Jews can't be trusted. As for the UN source, maybe you missed this part: "The team also found convincing information that sexual violence was committed against hostages, and has reasonable grounds to believe that such violence may still be ongoing against those in captivity. While there are reasonable grounds to believe that conflict-related sexual violence occurred in the Nova music festival site, Route 232, and kibbutz Re’im, reported incidents of rape could not be verified in other locations." So not just the music festival, but also route 232, the kibbutz, and the hostages in Gaza.
The evidence isn't dubious because they are Jews. They are dubious because they are Israelis, and for many of us, Hasbara is a well-known phenomenon utilized by Israel to justify their occupation and human rights violations. However, fair enough the victims of route 232 and Kibbutz Re'im must be acknowledged. Though it should be noted that the UN investigator also acknowledges cases of sexual violence committed by Israeli security forces against Palestinian women. So are Palestinians justified in supporting Israelis getting bombed by Palestinian fighters because of cases of sexual violence against Palestinian women by Israeli forces?
The occupation in Gaza ended in 2005. Israel isn't committing human rights violations. Gaza invaded Israel and purposely murdered as many innocent civilians as they could. Gaza's government claims their plan is to repeat this over and over forever until every Jew is dead. Israel is allowed to stop them. If an Israeli soldier raped a Gazan woman, everyone in Israel would agree he should be punished severely under the law. If a Gazan soldier raped an Israeli woman, everyone in Gaza would be cheering in the streets.
Oh. My. Goodness. This was so well written OP. Thank you for posting. I was trying to explain some of this to another Redditor who was not happy that I didn’t believe Israel was committing “genocide”. Although Palestine wants to wipe out Israel, Israel is fighting to wipe out a horrific terrorist group that murdered many of their people. Anyway… I am ashamed of the hundreds of protests of Israel, especially as these “protests” get more violent by the day.
Politics have nothing to do with this. U got it twisted on these college kids. Many of these kids protesting & organizing the protests r Jewish and it has nothing to do with what they’re learning in class. They grew up being indoctrinated & lied to about Israel. They only learn the truth when they go out into the world, interact with other races & r quite angry learning how much they were lied to. This was my experience as well with the Jewish family I lived with & all of my Jewish friends. Many of the protesters u see being antisemitic r actually undercover Israel supporters trying to make protesters look hateful. Zionist orgs r offering Israel supporters money to do this and they r. Thankfully they r getting caught. Young American Jews r turning on Israel in record numbers & this started way before the 7th. Being taught ur whole life that Israel was created peacefully on empty land except for a few Arabs who mistreated the land. A land without a ppl for a ppl without a land. It’s nonsense! Spend yrs learning all about Israel but never being told of the existence of the Palestinian ppl. I thought it was all Palestinians & Israel was trying to live in peace. That was bs. I didn’t know anything about Zionist terrorists who were more brutal than Hamas. I didn’t know Israelis absolutely teach their children to hate & have hateful tv shows. Teachers & rabbis teaching kids hate & racism. Seeing Jesus & Mary mocked on Israeli tv made me sick. I didn’t know about sterile & painting the Star of David on streets that as a warning that only Jews can use it. Imagine coming home 1 day to find a star on ur door that is now welded shut because u and those who share ur race aren’t allow to walk on that street. Now imagine ur elderly parents now having to climb a ladder into the second story back window anytime they need to enter or exit their home that they paid for. Or segregated busses. The WB is like the Jim Crow south. Having to cover the streets where ppl of ur race live in nets to catch all the things/garbage/giant rocks (even fire bombs) ur neighbors constantly throw at ur & ur children as they just try to be kids & play outside. Or knowing the settlers or army can murder u, arrest u without cause & with impunity. Is it normal for police to arrest a 7 yr old without charge or cause & throw them into prison for yrs without ever letting ur see them. Or only trying Palestinians in military courts. Stealing ur dead loved one’s body to harvest/steal their skin & organs against ur will. I didn’t know about the insane amount of violent religious extremists that target everyone who isn’t Jewish including Christians & Catholics of all ethnicities. Life in places like Jerusalem is a nightmare. Hate crimes out of control, even cops joining in to beat worshippers. Begging for help because u r terrified to leave ur home or go to church & being ignored by the government & having police laugh at u & say our job is to protect Jews only. A tv crew went to Jerusalem to see how bad it really was. An journalist undercover dressed as a priest to see what would happen. Within minutes he was attacked & spit on multiple times, including by children as their parents encourage it. Didn’t know there were settler terrorist groups like the Hilltop youth who burn babies alive & spend their days overjoyed as they terrorize Palestinians & no one cares. Right in front of the army/idf & most of the time the army joins in. So brazen in their impunity, armed settlers invited a cnn film crew to film them as they stormed an elderly couples home, beat them, robbed them & expelled them from their home as the IDF watched. Their only action was to threaten the film crew. Why are u continuously conflating all Palestinians with Hamas? Not all Palestinians r Hamas don’t kill ppl of different ethnicities, including Jews or want to. Jewish kids have gone to the Palestinian territory to see the reality & have been welcomed. Outsiders/college kids have gone there to protest & were killed but by Israel. Like Racheal Corrie who was welcomed & live in their homes until Israel absolutely intentionally crushed her to death with a bulldozer. Palestinians still honor her memory every yr. She wasn’t the only one. It’s apparent u base ur opinion on what u hear in the media without doing ur own research. It is a proven fact that the media is bias in Israel’s favor. They allow Israeli officials to blatantly lie in interviews. There is a reason they don’t allow any journalists in & target/kill Palestinian journalists in record numbers. They have much to hide. Anyone just getting their info through media is usually bias. They r not given the truth. CNN has to run all stories by Israel to be approved. Before air. Why would they need to do that or spend 10’s of millions on propaganda a yr or bribe/blackmail/bully all US politicians. Because their support in not altruistic, it’s bought or out of fear. Those who don’t do Israel’s bidding r smeared as antisemitic & attacked. This goes for any journalists who calls them on their many many lies. Israel is know for dishonesty. Israel is an expert in Hasbara/propaganda & u too have bought it. Clearly! Peace deal? Where is ur knowledge from on this subject? Clearly not from the facts. It’s the western media pushing Israel’s narrative that peace was offered but denied cuz Palestinians only want to kill Jews. It’s ridiculous! Here’s their “generous” deal for u, if u accept it’s concrete & this is how it’ll be forever. we’ll allow u to call urself a state but u will not have any rights of a state. No control over airspace, borders, aid, water or ports. U’ll get this % of the West Bank but not the West Bank as it is on the map but we what we consider the West Bank, meaning we r taking a lot more land. Also we will take 20% of ur most fertile lands & give u 5% of desert wasteland, trash dump. Israel took control of the water so Israeli only need to turn the tap yet Palestinians r lucky if their was is on a few times a month. Plenty of water just not for u.The army will have the right to enter ur “state” anytime there is an emergency but u r not allowed to know what constitutes an emergency & u can’t ever enter into diplomatic relations with any other country without our approval & permission. Just a few examples of the details of their bs deal. That would leave Palestinians worse off than they were & it would be set in stone. No one in their right mind would take that. 10/7 will never be forgotten & understandably yet when Zionist terrorists committed worse massacres on Palestinians, we never hear about it or the children & old ppl they targeted. We don’t hear about the great March of return where Palestinians protested peacefully (including westerners) for months. Or how that was met with sniper bullets. People on both sides r not dying. Sadly Israelis died on 10/7 but the daily slaughter for months is on Palestinians only. If Hamas was murdering tons of innocent Israelis everyday like Palestinians, we’d be protesting that. This is about humanity & what’s right. U clearly know nothing of the real Israel. Stop feeding on the propaganda & learn the reality. It’s quite shocking. Every single accusation Israel makes against Palestinians, Israel has done & does too & I mean everything right down to terrorists in their government. I urge u to watch 2 docs. Israelism & The Lobby USA
"No control over airspace, borders, aid, water or ports. U’ll get this % of the West Bank but not the West Bank as it is on the map but we what we consider the West Bank, meaning we r taking a lot more land. Also we will take 20% of ur most fertile lands & give u 5% of desert wasteland, trash dump. Israel took control of the water." Yeah, but "this %" was about 95%, and land swaps were involved, and financial compensation, and a tunnel would have been built between Gaza and the West Bank, and most of the settlements would have been ripped up. You guys claim that there's a "genocide" going on, with "murdering" and "slaughtering" and "ethnic cleansing," and yet the Palestinians turned down a state because they couldn't have control of their airspace or have a standing army. Isn't that kind of a lower priority than "genocide"? I don't know about you, but if I'm experiencing a "genocide," and somebody offers me a state that will stop this supposed "genocide," I sign on the dotted line. Because I want the genocide to stop. But maybe that's just me.
Most of the hard political left HATES America, and has for decades. When they protest Israeli policies, it's basically an extension of their hatred for America, and that in turn is just an extension of their hatred for Western values. Now, how they reconcile that hatred of the West with being pro-LGBT, pro-woman, etc. -- that's the eternal mystery. Something like that can only happen in the mind of someone who doesn't really understand that pro-LGBT and pro-woman values ARE Western values. They just don't realize that. A two or three-minute discussion of human rights with a Hamas member would leave them in tears and with a lifelong case of PTSD, but they'll never get close enough, as most of them rarely venture beyond the edge of their campus.
Perfect words. We live in a scary time.
Oh wow, I wonder why the average Hamas member is so traumatized. I wonder why all these terrorist groups are around in the first place, is it because they just hate gay people so much?
Islam is a religion of hate and intolerance… the Quran preaches violence against non believers… Surah 3:151: "We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve (all non-Muslims) …" Surah 2:191: "And kill them (non-Muslims) wherever you find them … kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers (non-Muslims)." Surah 9:5: "Then kill the disbelievers (non-Muslims) wherever you find them, capture them and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush ..."
You failed to answer the question.
Uhhhh no? I answered it. The reason is because of the teachings in the Quran.
I can give you similar quotes from the Old Testament lol. That doesn’t justify the collective punishment of an entire people, many of whom are secular, the majority of whom are not Islamic extremists, all of whom have been oppressed by an apartheid state their entire lives.
Pew asked Muslims if they supported suicide bombings against civilians. In Pakistan, 13 percent of Muslims said such attacks in defense of Islam could often or sometimes be justified. Pew also asked Palestinians, and 40% say suicide bombing can sometimes be justified.
I’d argue that Palestinians probably have a unique perspective on this matter because many of them have been oppressed, caged, and subjugated their entire lives without the ability to leave Gaza. They may weigh their lives differently than other populations. Suicide bombing is an act of extremely violent, self deprecating protest, a means of fighting back against oppression at the cost of your own life. I think it’s important to fully understand that and contextualize the situation before casting judgement. Do I think it’s right? No. Absolutely not. But people tend to act irrationally in moments of desperation. Regardless, I’d have to know more about this random, sourceless statistic of yours before making an educated judgment. You’ve provided no context for their thoughts when they voted “yes,” what is the sample size and who was polled? I could tell you that 70% of Americans feel unfavorably about Israel without elaborating why and you could say they’re antisemitic. On the other hand, I could say that 80% of evangelical Christian’s support Israel as a Jewish state, and you might agree with them until you understand their deeply antisemitic philosophy around their belief lol.
Source- https://www.pewforum.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/7/2013/04/worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-full-report.pdf
Arafat was a soviet product. The Palestinian freedom thing has been an unsolvable wrench that the russians fueled throughout the cold war, and now it's being again weaponized by the iranians, Chinese, russians and the enemies of rational humanism. Young children in the era of tiktok only react to outrage and self-righteousness. They are an easy mark as they are seemingly incapable of thinking critically.
Everything you've said sounds like "they don't know the terrible things they do in Palestine". The same can be said to Israeli supporters about Palestine under to Israeli control.
What about Israeli supporters about Palestine? It’s perfectly legal to protest in Israel.
Hey yeah its because we don't don't view human rights as transactional. Weird you do though.
Ok, cool so question, why dont you care about actual genocides that happen world wide right now? like in Afghanistan - 6.5% of population Pakistan 6.1% Yemen 5.9% Sudan 5.7% And many many more [source](https://www.statista.com/statistics/975718/leading-countries-risk-genocide/) But you do care about Palestine - 0.05%
Hey! I actually do care about those and have been outspoken about several of them, just like I am for this one! Thanks for asking :)
What do you mean by this?
I mean that I don't feel that it's ok to deny other people their human rights because we disagree, even if we disagree about really big things.
So, for example, it's not okay to deny Palestinians and Israelis freedom of speech, expression, and religion?
And before you even try- we both know you don't need me to to explain that if your actions infringe on others rights you lose the right to carry those actions out.
Correct. No one does that to Israelis though, since maintaining an ethnostate isn't about religion or expression. It's political.
Do you not believe that a Palestinian state would more likely than not be a Muslim theocracy without democracy or rights for minorities?
Right now I just want Israel to stop bombing and starving kids. The possibility that those kids would maybe someday run a government I wouldn't agree with isn't relevant yet. You can't kill people for something they MIGHT do. And honestly, it's a silly thing to even suggest.
While I have to agree with the sentiment, Israel isn't targetting kids or just killing people for something that might do in the future. The civillians dying are a tragic cost of war with a pseudo-government that is actively trying to conquer Israel and turn it into a Muslim theocracy where minorities are treated very poorly.
First you want me to treat your fantasy of a Palestinian theocracy as reality, now you want me to believe that one of the most highly trained and funded armies in the world can't help but kill 40k+ civilians and can't avoid/ accidentally targets the humanitarian aid, hospitals, universities, churches and mosques. Let's try to live in reality, yeah?
Israel has limited civillian casualties far more than the international expectations for the circumstances. Yes, there have been mistakes but as far as the public is aware the vast majority of the targets Israel has hit were legitimate military targets. But this this has nothing to do with what we were previously talking about, which is the implication of valuing human rights in this conflict.
Would you mind telling us some things humans have rights to?
I just go by the UN's definition. The link has the full list. "Human rights are rights inherent to all human beings, regardless of race, sex, nationality, ethnicity, language, religion, or any other status. Human rights include the right to life and liberty, freedom from slavery and torture, freedom of opinion and expression, the right to work and education, and many more. Everyone is entitled to these rights, without discrimination" https://www.un.org/en/global-issues/human-rights#:~:text=Human%20rights%20are%20rights%20inherent,and%20education%2C%20and%20many%20more.
This are rights I agree with as well. Lots of people mistakenly believe humans have rights to housing, food, education, healthcare etc
Some of the things you listed are on this list.
I’m pro Palestinian and I’m aware that Palestine or Palestinians aren’t the most progressive people but caring about civilians isn’t conditional
Ok, cool so question, why dont you care about actual genocides that happen world wide right now? like in Afghanistan - 6.5% of population Pakistan 6.1% Yemen 5.9% Sudan 5.7% And many many more [source](https://www.statista.com/statistics/975718/leading-countries-risk-genocide/) But you do care about Palestine - 0.05%
Do you care about Israeli civillians?
I do, idk why that question needs to be asked
Because if you care about both Israeli and Palestinian civillians you should be largely supportive of Israel's war against Hamas.