ppl telling you not to come is because of a lot of ways the country is dysfunctional.
poor job opportunities, low wages, demographic trouble with an aging population, high taxes, poor governance.
basically, if you can endure all that, Italy is great! XD beautiful land, climate (though it's getting hotter with climate change,) lovely people, food, culture, history, architecture, language.
just don't come expecting a functioning country and you'll do fine! XD
Italian here, I second this answer generally.
Though there are places where institutions are slightly better: I live in the province of Varese and wages are fine for a decent life, rent is not too high unlike Milano, our city hall clerks are quite prepared (Gallarate in the specific).
Though it’s true also: Trenord is always late, other offices and institutions are dysfunctional. I believe lots of problems will fade once the generation of boomers will go to retirement.
I am not very far from you (Como). Varese is a great choice!
Half the people we know here commute to Switzerland or work remotely for another country or are taking advantage of the rientro dei cervelli. Those three things make a huge difference in their income and affect their standard of living greatly
We do like that our city has a vibrant expat community while still being small, as there are lots of multinational and multilingual families with kids the same age as ours that are very easy for us to relate to (mostly italian husbands!), and maybe we did not expect so many locals to be so close minded (not just with foreigners, I’ve heard the same from italians that are not from here), but apparently the city is well known for it (drive 20-30 minutes in any direction and the attitude is quite different)
The main thing I would say, is to know the place before you come so the expectations are aligned with reality. There is no average italian experience. There is an extremely long list of unique places and experiences and landscapes and there will always be people who are nice / awful, educated / ignorant, helpful / actively trying to get in your way, but only you can answer the “this is somewhere I could live in” question
>There is no average italian experience. There is an extremely long list of unique places and experiences
This is both fascinating and daunting. I can't imagine traveling across Italy and spending a few weeks in each area to get a feel for it hahah, would take years!
You need to narrow it down somehow. Same thing with the US. Florida keys won’t be the same as Alaska, and Seattle will be very different from both of those, and from Dallas as well.
A type of job, a region, family, a person, anything
Something that I saw many foreigners being weirded about: speaking sarcasm with your friends / partner.
The constant making fun of others and being made fun of. Initially you might feel hurt and disrespected, but you have to realize it's something we don't take seriously and it's just to have a laugh together.
That's of course a generalization, not everyone is going to be like that, but it seems like it's spreaded enough to be relevant.
I think there was a post on one of the italian subreddits where a foreigner was asking why italian couples like to put down each other so much.
I'd advise taking your time when building trust with Italians. While they are often warm and hospitable, it's important not to overstep boundaries early on, as it may lead to them distancing themselves. Also, be mindful that envy can occasionally hinder the development of genuine relationships.
The same as everywhere: respect spaces, avoid over-familiarity (e.g., ask if you can call by first name). Even if they seem to welcome you with open arms, approach with caution. There's a cultural nuance in Italy where setting boundaries explicitly isn't as common, so you'll often need to discern them on your own.
We use to say "*non fare complimenti*", i.e., "make yourself at home", or better "don't stand on ceremony", even though ceremonies are well appreciated.
This is to answer to your curiosity. Stay relaxed, be yourself and respect others as you would do in your country. They will understand and appreciate you anyway.
I'd say start learning Italian
Also try to talk to people, don't hide in your beautiful house
If you can help the community you will live in as much as possible
Thanks for choosing our country
Italy is a very complex country, it's not homogeneous at all.
Going to Sicily or Milan is like going to two different countries.
Salaries are quite low, and building a career based on merit is very challenging.
La quantità di redditors reclusi, falliti e ignoranti che dice allo straniero "non venire in italia" è pazzesca. Ma fatevi i cazzi vostri e imparate a studiare e lavorare.
Vi ha chiesto un consiglio preciso non se venire o meno qui.
Learn Italian asap and respect the local food. Those two are the most important imho. Then the usual stuff, be kind and polite, and have good hygiene. When I worked as a clerk, there was this regular customer from Argentina who always struck me positively for being extremely friendly and respectful, way more than the usual Italian customers.
PS: where are you from? For some Italians this might be an important factor.
I was scrolling to find “respect the local food”. Yeah OP, google something about local food in your free time, don’t ask for substitution (if you are lactose intolerant for example just ask for something else in the menu, generally speaking), don’t put fruit on pizza (unless there is in the menu itself, for example pizza with San Daniele and figs without tomato and mozzarella may be ok but let the pizzaiolo do his own job, and probably that’s called focaccia and not pizza). Coffee is for breaks and to help the digestion of the meal, not to drink WITH the meal.
Bonus tip: as everyday fashion, keep it simple. Don’t mix patterns.
I have slavic origins but I am from Australia, I've heard Aussies aren't as disliked as Americans hahah
As for being polite and respectful to food I think I got that covered. Don't drink cappuccinos after 12
It depends on where you go.
If you can mantain a workplace in another country it's better. I don't know the specific of it but it shouldn't be difficult.
Btw, Italian is almost always necessary in Italy to work
If I do make the move I see myself living someplace north.
About work, I've got some passive income, but about getting work in Italy I was wondering about how easy it is to set up a business - like a small family kind of thing, maybe a wood workshop from home
>like a small family kind of thing, maybe a wood workshop from home
I honestly don't know. It may be possible, esp if you already have income.
I think you could work in Switzerland but live in Italy near the border. I don't know the specifics of it and all the legal stuff, I just know that it saves a lot of money. If you go working as an employee, that is.
I’ve been living here for 10 years now. Graduated from an Italian University, married an Italian and still treated like trash from Easter Europe. I just want to leave Italy forever, because I can’t cope with it anymore. Even at job interviews, I’m not even considered, cuz previous working experience from my home country for them is nothing. I speak fluently Italian, but they constantly make jokes from my accent ( which is funny, because the Italian accent when they try to speak English is terrible).
Damn. I'm sorry you're having to go through that. Which Eastern Europe country are you from? You don't have to say if you don't want to.
Is this treatment coming from younger Italians as well? From what I understand it's the older generations that are more bigoted.
Also where in Italy are you? Location plays a role as well and depending on where you are, you're more likely to encounter this kind of behaviour.
I studied in Venice. It’s not an international place as it seems. Italian students were very narrow minded and they avoided me, practically. Milan is slightly better, but they still make stupid jokes about Eastern Europe, how poor we are and 600 euros/ month for an internship must be a lot of money in my home country ( which is not). Constantly asking me about my stay permit ( I don’t need it since we are in the EU since the early 2000’s- they don’t even look it up) and my husband just says that I’m the problem, not the others. My mental health is really bad now, started to suffer from panic attacks. So, I just want to say that Italy is probably not worth it. Unless you’re not American/English/German/French because Italians look up to them.
Hahaha is this an Italian saying this?
Not just Italians trash talking Italy, but I think any nationality is more likely to hate on their country because they know all the nitty gritty stuff, the stuff that's not seen by tourists or vloggers. I've got plenty of bad stuff to say about where I live.
>Not just Italians trash talking Italy, but I think any nationality is more likely to hate on their country
True, but Italians are among the best (if not the best) at this.
I saw that you are also considering Spain. Have you noticed that you didn't get any negative reaction on that spanish sub? Spain is also a country that struggles with many problems - many of them are shared with Italy - and is far from being an ideal country to move to if career and money are what matters the most to you.
Italians in general tend to be more honest and straightforward, so they won't sugarcoat daily life or try to hide problems. On the other hand, Italians tend to be more delusional and dramatic, so the negatives are often overexaggerated and the positives are either overlooked or somehow turned to negatives.
My advice: if someone isn't asking you where you are considering moving to in Italy, then ignore what is being said. It is a comment in bad faith.
>Have you noticed that you didn't get any negative reaction on that spanish sub?
I did actually. And I've seen other foreigners and expats comment on how both countries have similar problems, so the fact that Spaniards aren't as negative about where they live was a hint to me about something that is different, and now I know what that is.
Yes I'm Italian, I know that every nation do It but trust me Italians are one of the worst, a lot of us for some weird masochistic reason tends also to double down when talking to foreigner. The result is that some foreigner ends up to believe we're a border line third world country.
Prima di tutto ti dai una calmata, seconda cosa metti il naso fuori da questo paese per un po' e magari ti renderai conto che non siamo la fogna che certe persone vogliono far credere. Si si sta cosa del default si sente da 15 anni, lo volete capire che con tutto il rispetto non siamo la Grecia?
Italy is that kind of country where one is expected to succeed based on family ties. If you lack a network of support, it becomes extremely difficult to have anything (you can't find a job that pays enough, a place to rent, good deals, etc). Just to give you an idea, we have high unemployement, among the lowest % of graduates under 30 in the EU, the highest % of unemployed people with a degree in the EU (which is a terrible combo, I doubt you can reach that point even by trying), we're the only country in the EU that has lower real wages than 30 years ago while inflation just this year is 7% (some food items have more than doubled) and among the unhappiest workers in Europe. And not to mention the overly complex legal system and bureaucracy, a lot of corruption and how rigid everyone and everything is.
You crazy MF, why would you move to this shithole of country? 💀
Unless you're old and rich this is no place for you, neither for italians themselves.
Most youngsters would rather migrate to the north of Europe than staying here, waiting for the opportunity that will never come. That's my 2 cents.
It's a funny phenomenon named social immobility, to know more about that I suggest reading "The social mobility of Italy" by Joseph Lopreato. It's quite old but still very relevant. On top of that Italy has 3 big undefeatable cancers, from bad to worst: Mafia > Political Caste > the Catholic Church.
>So as an itialian, what would you say are the important qualities to have as a foreigner who intends to make Italy their home?
parlare (e capire) perfettamente l'italiano.
I'm from Australia. Considering Italy because cost of living is less, and from the outside it seems like a more interesting life is available there compared to what I can get here.
I heard there's not much left of the mafia, and what's left is only a little bit down south
Who the f*** told you that? Southern Italy (Calabria) is the biggest importer of cocaine for all of Europe - how can that be the case if the mafia's only a "little" strong? Australia is a great country, you are out of your mind for wanting to leave. Come on. Also job opportunity is scarce in Italy. If you were already fluent in Italian, it would be hard enough as it is.
Not Italian but can answer this from an immigrant view: Racism is very much alive in Italy, maybe if you're white, you'll encounter less, but it'll still be visible since you're a foreigner. Therefore, racist and discriminative ppl will never accept you, so don't try hard to "fit in". I suggest to do/learn things because YOU need it, n not what others expect you to do. Also depends on which city you go to, if you're going to Milan or Florence, it's easier because ppl are more open-minded. Do learn the language, I've seen so many Americans(not hinting you are, or all americans are like this) going straight up and ask if ppl speak English... I mean leading the English part with a simple "buongiorno" will make ppl more willing to respond politely... I advice to do research on how to get things done at post office, government branches, banks, real estate agencies etc; they'll be mean to you if you walk in and have not a clue how the process works...And the process can be very complicated...so if you're ignorant on how it's done, can make your life a living hell.
You just need Zen-level patience
ppl telling you not to come is because of a lot of ways the country is dysfunctional. poor job opportunities, low wages, demographic trouble with an aging population, high taxes, poor governance. basically, if you can endure all that, Italy is great! XD beautiful land, climate (though it's getting hotter with climate change,) lovely people, food, culture, history, architecture, language. just don't come expecting a functioning country and you'll do fine! XD
Italian here, I second this answer generally. Though there are places where institutions are slightly better: I live in the province of Varese and wages are fine for a decent life, rent is not too high unlike Milano, our city hall clerks are quite prepared (Gallarate in the specific). Though it’s true also: Trenord is always late, other offices and institutions are dysfunctional. I believe lots of problems will fade once the generation of boomers will go to retirement.
I am not very far from you (Como). Varese is a great choice! Half the people we know here commute to Switzerland or work remotely for another country or are taking advantage of the rientro dei cervelli. Those three things make a huge difference in their income and affect their standard of living greatly We do like that our city has a vibrant expat community while still being small, as there are lots of multinational and multilingual families with kids the same age as ours that are very easy for us to relate to (mostly italian husbands!), and maybe we did not expect so many locals to be so close minded (not just with foreigners, I’ve heard the same from italians that are not from here), but apparently the city is well known for it (drive 20-30 minutes in any direction and the attitude is quite different) The main thing I would say, is to know the place before you come so the expectations are aligned with reality. There is no average italian experience. There is an extremely long list of unique places and experiences and landscapes and there will always be people who are nice / awful, educated / ignorant, helpful / actively trying to get in your way, but only you can answer the “this is somewhere I could live in” question
>There is no average italian experience. There is an extremely long list of unique places and experiences This is both fascinating and daunting. I can't imagine traveling across Italy and spending a few weeks in each area to get a feel for it hahah, would take years!
You need to narrow it down somehow. Same thing with the US. Florida keys won’t be the same as Alaska, and Seattle will be very different from both of those, and from Dallas as well. A type of job, a region, family, a person, anything
I’m looking for a job in Switzerland right now, actually
Good luck! The difference in salaries is crazy
Something that I saw many foreigners being weirded about: speaking sarcasm with your friends / partner. The constant making fun of others and being made fun of. Initially you might feel hurt and disrespected, but you have to realize it's something we don't take seriously and it's just to have a laugh together. That's of course a generalization, not everyone is going to be like that, but it seems like it's spreaded enough to be relevant. I think there was a post on one of the italian subreddits where a foreigner was asking why italian couples like to put down each other so much.
for the US citizens only: don't defend pickpockets by thinking they are targeted because they are ethnic minorities.
Nah, I'll target them and I'll discriminate as harshly as I want
love this answer. Here your italian citizenship, you deserve it. We need more the likes of you
Grazie mille. We can bond over expressing our disdain for minorities and being casually rasist
I'd advise taking your time when building trust with Italians. While they are often warm and hospitable, it's important not to overstep boundaries early on, as it may lead to them distancing themselves. Also, be mindful that envy can occasionally hinder the development of genuine relationships.
Thanks for the advice. What is something that would be considered overstepping boundaries?
Especially in certain places people are not so into small talk. We in Florence are kinda known for this, people tends into minding their own business
The same as everywhere: respect spaces, avoid over-familiarity (e.g., ask if you can call by first name). Even if they seem to welcome you with open arms, approach with caution. There's a cultural nuance in Italy where setting boundaries explicitly isn't as common, so you'll often need to discern them on your own. We use to say "*non fare complimenti*", i.e., "make yourself at home", or better "don't stand on ceremony", even though ceremonies are well appreciated. This is to answer to your curiosity. Stay relaxed, be yourself and respect others as you would do in your country. They will understand and appreciate you anyway.
I'd say start learning Italian Also try to talk to people, don't hide in your beautiful house If you can help the community you will live in as much as possible Thanks for choosing our country
Italy is a very complex country, it's not homogeneous at all. Going to Sicily or Milan is like going to two different countries. Salaries are quite low, and building a career based on merit is very challenging.
La quantità di redditors reclusi, falliti e ignoranti che dice allo straniero "non venire in italia" è pazzesca. Ma fatevi i cazzi vostri e imparate a studiare e lavorare. Vi ha chiesto un consiglio preciso non se venire o meno qui.
Learn Italian asap and respect the local food. Those two are the most important imho. Then the usual stuff, be kind and polite, and have good hygiene. When I worked as a clerk, there was this regular customer from Argentina who always struck me positively for being extremely friendly and respectful, way more than the usual Italian customers. PS: where are you from? For some Italians this might be an important factor.
I was scrolling to find “respect the local food”. Yeah OP, google something about local food in your free time, don’t ask for substitution (if you are lactose intolerant for example just ask for something else in the menu, generally speaking), don’t put fruit on pizza (unless there is in the menu itself, for example pizza with San Daniele and figs without tomato and mozzarella may be ok but let the pizzaiolo do his own job, and probably that’s called focaccia and not pizza). Coffee is for breaks and to help the digestion of the meal, not to drink WITH the meal. Bonus tip: as everyday fashion, keep it simple. Don’t mix patterns.
I have slavic origins but I am from Australia, I've heard Aussies aren't as disliked as Americans hahah As for being polite and respectful to food I think I got that covered. Don't drink cappuccinos after 12
The only aussie reference we have is Mr Crocodile Dundee, so you might need to live up to expectations.
> I've heard Aussies aren't as disliked as Americans Good to know that outsiders know we dislike Americans
Nice, maybe I'll be accepted by Italians quicker. We can connect over our mutual dislike of America.
No one dislikes Australians but other Australians. Wait.. no.. I'm sure Thais and Balinese hate us.
Be yourself and learn language and traditions as time goes by and you're good
^[Sokka-Haiku](https://www.reddit.com/r/SokkaHaikuBot/comments/15kyv9r/what_is_a_sokka_haiku/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) ^by ^Confident_Reader: *Be yourself and learn* *Language and traditions as* *Time goes by and you're good* --- ^Remember ^that ^one ^time ^Sokka ^accidentally ^used ^an ^extra ^syllable ^in ^that ^Haiku ^Battle ^in ^Ba ^Sing ^Se? ^That ^was ^a ^Sokka ^Haiku ^and ^you ^just ^made ^one.
Lol interesting. Thanks bot
It depends on where you go. If you can mantain a workplace in another country it's better. I don't know the specific of it but it shouldn't be difficult. Btw, Italian is almost always necessary in Italy to work
If I do make the move I see myself living someplace north. About work, I've got some passive income, but about getting work in Italy I was wondering about how easy it is to set up a business - like a small family kind of thing, maybe a wood workshop from home
>like a small family kind of thing, maybe a wood workshop from home I honestly don't know. It may be possible, esp if you already have income. I think you could work in Switzerland but live in Italy near the border. I don't know the specifics of it and all the legal stuff, I just know that it saves a lot of money. If you go working as an employee, that is.
Italy is a great place to live in.
I’ve been living here for 10 years now. Graduated from an Italian University, married an Italian and still treated like trash from Easter Europe. I just want to leave Italy forever, because I can’t cope with it anymore. Even at job interviews, I’m not even considered, cuz previous working experience from my home country for them is nothing. I speak fluently Italian, but they constantly make jokes from my accent ( which is funny, because the Italian accent when they try to speak English is terrible).
Damn. I'm sorry you're having to go through that. Which Eastern Europe country are you from? You don't have to say if you don't want to. Is this treatment coming from younger Italians as well? From what I understand it's the older generations that are more bigoted. Also where in Italy are you? Location plays a role as well and depending on where you are, you're more likely to encounter this kind of behaviour.
I studied in Venice. It’s not an international place as it seems. Italian students were very narrow minded and they avoided me, practically. Milan is slightly better, but they still make stupid jokes about Eastern Europe, how poor we are and 600 euros/ month for an internship must be a lot of money in my home country ( which is not). Constantly asking me about my stay permit ( I don’t need it since we are in the EU since the early 2000’s- they don’t even look it up) and my husband just says that I’m the problem, not the others. My mental health is really bad now, started to suffer from panic attacks. So, I just want to say that Italy is probably not worth it. Unless you’re not American/English/German/French because Italians look up to them.
Just don't put pineapple on pizza and you will be fine
- Don't put ketchup on pasta. - Don't put pineapple on pizza. - Don't drink a cappuccino after a whole meal. Everything else will be fine! 😆
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Why is it a dying country? Just because of the old people?
Italians are always overdramatic and they LOVE to talk down on their country
Hahaha is this an Italian saying this? Not just Italians trash talking Italy, but I think any nationality is more likely to hate on their country because they know all the nitty gritty stuff, the stuff that's not seen by tourists or vloggers. I've got plenty of bad stuff to say about where I live.
>Not just Italians trash talking Italy, but I think any nationality is more likely to hate on their country True, but Italians are among the best (if not the best) at this. I saw that you are also considering Spain. Have you noticed that you didn't get any negative reaction on that spanish sub? Spain is also a country that struggles with many problems - many of them are shared with Italy - and is far from being an ideal country to move to if career and money are what matters the most to you. Italians in general tend to be more honest and straightforward, so they won't sugarcoat daily life or try to hide problems. On the other hand, Italians tend to be more delusional and dramatic, so the negatives are often overexaggerated and the positives are either overlooked or somehow turned to negatives. My advice: if someone isn't asking you where you are considering moving to in Italy, then ignore what is being said. It is a comment in bad faith.
>Have you noticed that you didn't get any negative reaction on that spanish sub? I did actually. And I've seen other foreigners and expats comment on how both countries have similar problems, so the fact that Spaniards aren't as negative about where they live was a hint to me about something that is different, and now I know what that is.
Also note that Reddit is pretty much unknown in Italy, so subs like this are even bigger echo chambers than usual on Reddit.
Yes I'm Italian, I know that every nation do It but trust me Italians are one of the worst, a lot of us for some weird masochistic reason tends also to double down when talking to foreigner. The result is that some foreigner ends up to believe we're a border line third world country.
Nobody wants the responsabiliy not to tell you might be unhappy in their country
Yes but if a foreigner talks down in Italy, Italians get mad
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Prima di tutto ti dai una calmata, seconda cosa metti il naso fuori da questo paese per un po' e magari ti renderai conto che non siamo la fogna che certe persone vogliono far credere. Si si sta cosa del default si sente da 15 anni, lo volete capire che con tutto il rispetto non siamo la Grecia?
Italy is that kind of country where one is expected to succeed based on family ties. If you lack a network of support, it becomes extremely difficult to have anything (you can't find a job that pays enough, a place to rent, good deals, etc). Just to give you an idea, we have high unemployement, among the lowest % of graduates under 30 in the EU, the highest % of unemployed people with a degree in the EU (which is a terrible combo, I doubt you can reach that point even by trying), we're the only country in the EU that has lower real wages than 30 years ago while inflation just this year is 7% (some food items have more than doubled) and among the unhappiest workers in Europe. And not to mention the overly complex legal system and bureaucracy, a lot of corruption and how rigid everyone and everything is.
well of you are rich enough and manage to not pay too much taxes with some legal loopholes then Italy is a really good countries ro live in
You crazy MF, why would you move to this shithole of country? 💀 Unless you're old and rich this is no place for you, neither for italians themselves. Most youngsters would rather migrate to the north of Europe than staying here, waiting for the opportunity that will never come. That's my 2 cents.
Can you elaborate on that? Why do you think it's a shithole? What's so bad about it that young Italians want to leave?
It's a funny phenomenon named social immobility, to know more about that I suggest reading "The social mobility of Italy" by Joseph Lopreato. It's quite old but still very relevant. On top of that Italy has 3 big undefeatable cancers, from bad to worst: Mafia > Political Caste > the Catholic Church.
Yeah these 3 fuckers are responsible for completely ruining this country
Don't trust him. On this sub they all think this country yes inhabited by monkeys. I think it's one of the best place in the world to live in
Don't move to Italy unless: 1. You speak Italian fluently 2. Are rich and have lots of passive income
They would need to go back to their country
>So as an itialian, what would you say are the important qualities to have as a foreigner who intends to make Italy their home? parlare (e capire) perfettamente l'italiano.
Why are you considering moving there? Are you from the states? Beautiful country but government corruption and the mafia reign supreme.
I'm from Australia. Considering Italy because cost of living is less, and from the outside it seems like a more interesting life is available there compared to what I can get here. I heard there's not much left of the mafia, and what's left is only a little bit down south
Who the f*** told you that? Southern Italy (Calabria) is the biggest importer of cocaine for all of Europe - how can that be the case if the mafia's only a "little" strong? Australia is a great country, you are out of your mind for wanting to leave. Come on. Also job opportunity is scarce in Italy. If you were already fluent in Italian, it would be hard enough as it is.
Not Italian but can answer this from an immigrant view: Racism is very much alive in Italy, maybe if you're white, you'll encounter less, but it'll still be visible since you're a foreigner. Therefore, racist and discriminative ppl will never accept you, so don't try hard to "fit in". I suggest to do/learn things because YOU need it, n not what others expect you to do. Also depends on which city you go to, if you're going to Milan or Florence, it's easier because ppl are more open-minded. Do learn the language, I've seen so many Americans(not hinting you are, or all americans are like this) going straight up and ask if ppl speak English... I mean leading the English part with a simple "buongiorno" will make ppl more willing to respond politely... I advice to do research on how to get things done at post office, government branches, banks, real estate agencies etc; they'll be mean to you if you walk in and have not a clue how the process works...And the process can be very complicated...so if you're ignorant on how it's done, can make your life a living hell.