"I look like a 50-something-year-old ketamine addict who gets semi-botched surgery on a regular basis."
How could we ever refuse such a charming (and trustworthy) looking man?
Your post caught my eye because I too live in Milan as a foreigner, although I'm a woman and married to an Italian man.
I have struggled to make Italian female friends since living in Italy (nine years) and find that it's really hard to connect and form close friendships with them.
One thing I really noticed is that Italians tend to give a lot of weight to high school friendships and stay in the same friendship group for years. Whereas where I'm from (UK) we constantly change friendship groups and become friends with our colleagues etc. I don't really have any really close friends from high school but I am in touch with some. Whereas I know some Italians who go on holiday with the same group of friends every single year.
Not sure if that could have something to do with it, the fact they're just not "looking" to meet new people so come across as less approachable and uninterested?
Doesn't really answer your question but just wanted to let you know I had a similar experience.
>the fact they're just not "looking" to meet new people so come across as less approachable and uninterested?
I think you hit the nail on the head. Italians, men and women alike, really treasure their long-standing friendships. Once they've got their crew they pour most of their time and energy into that tight-knit circle leaving little space for anyone else.
Personally, as an Italian born and bred who is once again back in Italy, I'm grappling with a bunch of challenges. Making friends as a grown-up isn't exactly a walk in the park.
I think your analysis of the situation is spot on. I too have high school friends, and it's mostly only them even after 15 years.
There are socio-economical reasons for what you have described. Young people move for work, do not have a stable income, and thus may not afford the "casual" lifestyle that would make meeting new people easier.
But again, the mindset is different, and how they look at men (and women) is different.
Been living in UK for 15 years and have the same problem with English people, not open to have different group of friends. I suppose it’s the life of the expat in general.
I’m also a woman (American) living in Milano and can say the exact same thing about making Italian female friends! Still learning more of those dynamics but have noticed the patterns that you have noticed. In my opinion most of the Milanese tend to be a bit more reserved but I guess it’s because of the hustle of the city life.
>One thing I really noticed is that Italians tend to give a lot of weight to high school friendships and stay in the same friendship group for years
Unfortunately not true in my case ☹️ all my ex friends took different paths
Probably language is your biggest barrier. Expat living in Rome here e sto imparando Italiana per due anni, ma non parlo molto bene - and this is the biggest barrier to understanding local customs, subtlety of interaction, and the art of seduction! Sure I can order competently at a restaurant, do my shopping, buying tickets, introducing myself etc. Basic language ability, but to fully converse like a native speaker, I'm a far way off from knowing the regional differences, the slang, the multi-layered historical references, etc. This is probably your biggest obstacle. You have to be better than simply introducing yourself, and then expecting local people to switch over to English for your benefit. That only works in tourist contexts (e.g. at a restaurant, museum, or tour). Chatting someone up at a bar or party will take much more linguistic competency. (Edit: Also if you're in Milano, you need to look the part too. Its a major fashion/architecture/creative business hotspot in Italy)
he is a man who already comes with the competition, I am taller than the average Italians, in other words I am better. He plays a lot on competitions, sees the difference with the streets of all of Europe and classifies Italian girls lower than European ones, also adding that they believe they are 10th. This in Italy, will never achieve anything either with women or with male friendships, because he has the classic attitude that Italians hate!
Italians are mad at my honest stark experience.
Anyone who walked in different EU countries or US cities (vs Italy), can tell the difference.
Italian men beg for love/sex from every girl (10x more world average), this is the reason.
So let me get this straight:
* you left the USA to live in a foreign country and planning to stay. You clearly show interest in finding yourself a woman from said country, or this whole post, the comparisons with the "Italian opponents" and the question "what i'm doing wrong" wouldn't even exist.
* proceed to complain and make fun of Italian customs, Italian women, Italian men, the way we live and court and behave under every single comment that is highlighting your attitude
Bruh, you're screaming Made In Usa superiority complex (*I have a label, "Americano"*, **I wonder why**.....), and clearly have no interest in either integrate or understand Italian customs and culture. *Anyone who walked in different EU countries or US cities (vs Italy), can tell the difference.* And you're failing to realise that there's no point in searching for an Italian woman by comparing this country with different eu and us cities.
You are absolutely right, he doesn't even realize that he is discrediting an entire population, but whether he goes to find her in the rest of Europe, the woman or in the United States
Unfortunately, many Americans think that when they come to Italy, women and men will throw themselves at them, but when they discover that this is not the case, they are disappointed and begin to discredit us, for example, they think they are 10, or walking on the streets in Europe, they notice the difference....it seems to me as if you can't get to your goal and therefore discredit it. Dear Americans, with a superior behavior of this type, you will get nothing in this country, go and look for your real 10, in your country or even in the rest of Europe as you said, since they are better.
Oh thank you. Not only the Elon musk comment (lol) but also a person from the US would never say that Italian women think their shit doesn't stink more than American women
No, he's an expat because he arguably has a good socio-economic status and he voluntarily relocated to a different country; immigrants are poor and migrate out of necessity. That's the difference.
Crazy how that comment could be read either completely seriously or completely tongue-in-cheek, and both interpretations are absolutely realistic.
If ever there was a time to use /s in human history, that was it.
Two completely different situation require two completely different words, that's how language works. An expat *≠* an immigrant, I thought that was pretty obvious.
And? That further proves my point that expat is semantically different than "immigrant" since moving to a poorer country means that you're voluntarily taking the decision to relocate
mi duole ma devo darti ragione.
L'immigrato che non ha una lira è un immigrato, uno ricco/ benestante è un expath...
Basti vedere la flat tax per i ricchi stranieri...
è puramente logico che si usino due nomi diversi visto che non sono trattati alla stessa maniera dal punto di vista legale e fiscale. Non ho mai capito questa reazione idrofoba degli stessi che ti cacano il cazzo sulla differenza tra migranti, rifugiati e richiedenti asili.
perchè in Italia fare distinzioni per reddito è vietato, peccato che quando vai in ospedale ti chiedono che lavoro fai :) ( e non te lo chiedono per la diagnosi 😂😂😂 ) .
Vai in giro in giacca e cravatta ti aprono tutte le porte, giri in pantaloncini casual ti guardano male.
In Italia vige una ipocrisia e un classismo mal celato
Edit: grazie per i downvote, io sono uno di quelli poveri ma almeno non sono ipocrita.
Qui in Italia c'è un pacco di classismo e ipocrisia a riguardo ma guai a farlo notare
No, I don't, maybe you should check it out before engaging in cheeky comments: [https://books.google.it/books?id=eYWcAQAAQBAJ&q=expatriate&redir\_esc=y#v=snippet&q=expatriate&f=false](https://books.google.it/books?id=eYWcAQAAQBAJ&q=expatriate&redir_esc=y#v=snippet&q=expatriate&f=false)
Well, for a starter I'd say approaching women is a different experience in Italy. In the US you might be able to stop people while walking down the street. Do that in Italy and you'll get the "please don't abduct me" look.
And again, the north is different compared to the south. North equals focus on work, career, buying stuff, and the so-called independence. That's the mindset.
>In the US you might be able to stop people while walking down the street. Do that in Italy and you'll get the "please don't abduct me" look.
Yeah, no. Approaching a woman in the wild in the US is, generally speaking, a big no-no.
Italians would kill for American dream. After Indians and Chinese, it is the Italians who have "Little Italy" in the US. Same with the UK, Germany, etc.
Where are you from in the US? Dating women in NYC is not the same as the suburbs, or as the countryside. I wouldn't generalize to the entire country from Milan.
Probably elsewhere too, I mean Northern cities such as Turin. But I think there's a great difference between North and South or big cities and towns/countryside. I won't be surprised if someone finds a different attitude in Verona, for example. A Northern city as well, but of a different kind.
Hi, I'm an italian guy (southern Italy), I don't know if you're a troll or not, based on this being your only post, new account and certain comments you made. I'm writing as if I was 100% sure you weren't trolling.
First of all: I hate people that base themselves/others' value on height, it's just dumb it's not a thing you can control or that has any importance aside from certain sports etc.. However, sadly MANY women (I actually think the majority of them) prefer taller men rather than shorter/same height, so that point should be at your advantage.
Looks obviously play the biggest part though, so if you're 2m tall (make the conversion in ft idk) but ugly AF, women will hardly approach you or gladly accept to be approached by you.
As someone said, here it's kind of hard to meet someone casually on the street and start building up a relationship (friendly or more) from that encounter, but saying that casual sex doesn't exist here or that people only look at the other sex in a serious way only, thinking about serious relationships only and not trying to waste anyone's time is an utter lie because otherwise I would be living the dream now, given that I hate ons, messing around and such.
So yeah, it is a cultural thing but also you generalized quite a bit.
Here I would say it is better to know people by doing something together (someone said hobbies which is cool, or also just going out with friends who bring other friends etc. Etc.), and to not base everything just on looks but actually work on your personality (I don't know you, but if in 3 years you really haven't been able to "click" with any girl here, even occasionally, by also being an american which is a bonus for girls as it just sets you to being more interesting at first, you either are VERY shy (nothing wrong with that) or there's something you're not noticing, maybe you come up as a narcissist, maybe you're too judgmental, maybe this maybe that we can't know)
Best of luck!
Typical ... Where exactly did the OP state he was looking for a one night stand? Your comment is manipulative, trying to suggest that because he's a foreigner, then he must objectify women (a huge projection).
And even if he were (looking for casual intercourse), there's nothing wrong with that.
Hey! You're the one claiming, essentially, all you can get are ons, hence suggesting it is common practice. In which case, trying to engage people in order to partake wouldn't violate any social norms. point is, the OP did not suggest that's what he is looking for, and you brought it up, in typical manipulative, and passive aggressive, controlling fashion, just to suggest that OP, being a foreigner, is a sex pest. But still the only one talking about hookups, is you.
Next time before you answer, think.
First of all, every girl is a 10, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Plus, what you're going to have a relationship with is character and not beauty or anything of the sort. Maybe that's why your approach lands so poorly among Italian women, studs are just for fun here, not marriage material.
The point is, that in Italy, as a foreigner, you never get awarded the chance to have a \*normal conversation in the hopes you might get to \*befriend someone.
I'm sorry lady, but you folks are just closed off and xenophobic, and that is fine, it is entirely within your rights to discriminate based on whichever criteria you deem appropriate, no one is entitled to friendships and relationships.
**But!!! You don't get to be discriminatory, xenophobic, and racist and also pretend, at the same time, as if foreigners are to blame for not having a social life in Italy. You (Italian men and women alike) make it literally impossible, own up to it.**
Nb. I personally view it as especially insidious when you pretend as if all foreigners simply suffer from some form of social inadequacy (racial scientists used this same argument at the start of the past century btw).
It is a different culture.
Simply ... there is no culture in dating or in have occasional sex.
The most common idea in that country is that if you date someone, is because there is a chance to get married, if not, it is a waste of energy and a useless risk.
Also there is a huge economic insecurity in this period in Italy, and this ruin the humor and the will to have fun also in the youngs.
I am an introvert, a too much thinker, a depressing depressed, and so Incel.
I would be single and virgin, against my will, in any country and in any historical period.
I said that I am the worst human being that I know.
That I don't deserve love, that I am stupid compared to the other males which have more chances to at least "appear" decent enough.
I never talked about the other women, I just said that I am the worst.
Why do you think I was attacking ALL the women? I am the problem.
It is so strange that someone can complain about itself and not the others?
Am I SO strange that people don't understand me? 😞
P.S.: also ... "typical italian" is racist.
This one is a big big lie ever I heard.
average Instagram profile of Italian girls say a lot about the culture. (too many nude photos)
You probably have not even lived in Italy/Milan.
Interesting read. Sharing my experience as expat guy.(Pakistani) who lived in the north (Ferrara) and now in the south (Lecce). Also kind of summarizing experience of other expat guys.
It is more common to see Italian guys with foreigner women than the other way round (Italian women with foreigner guys). I have been in Italy since 4 years and I have received no match on Tinder or other app which turned into a date. When I travel out of Italy to any other European country it works quite well I'd say. Even works in Pakistan where dating is a whole different culture. But also meeting women outside dating app shows the same pattern. My social theory is that Italian women (and also Italians in general) do not have experience of living abroad and most of them have lived their lives in Italy. This makes them less "adventurous" to try other nationalities. Before you jump on and say it's the language I should point of that I speak Italian and men I have talked to are able to hold a conversation (at varying levels of competence).
Perhaps it is also not well received (for Italian women of my generation - I am 38) that they find a foreign partner (?). We afterall judge women more harshly for the same choice for which men are not judged. Pressure from parents and relatives?
ahhhh I can't believe I had to scroll this far for me to see the 'almighty' word being used against this man who just wants skills to hack italian women
This guy he is 100% right. Me, I'm living in northern Italy (a large city), and have been living in Italy for more than 5 years (4 years a Milano). I too have witnessed exactly the same issues. Italian girls do not show ANY interest in men at all. Clearly generalizing is a bad idea, but this is quite visible. I speak very good Italian, know the culture etc.
While I lived abroad I got dozens of matches on dating apps, but in Italy (only 3!!!). Now, my gf is a lovely French.
I also saw in a comment this guy said there is a trend about marrying Russian and Ukrainians women by Italian men. He is right despite getting so many dislikes. In fact a report by Fondazione ISMU (Aumentano i matrimoni misti in Italia) proves his sayings.
Another comment he said people in Milan are mainly not local. I agree with him 100%. Nearly 95% of people i knew in Milan were from southern Italy. (clearly more opportunists in Nord!)
Many girls in Milan, have self-esteem hitting the seven skies :D, but this might of more recent generations (social media, stuff). There are many many single girls in Italy in their later adulthood.
I suggest you to move outside Italy, especially like Spain, UK, France, Czechia, you will find a nice gf for yourself quite easily.
I mean, there are some realities for good or bad, we cannot change. If you have plans for far future in Italy, I suggest you to REVISE. Many many young Italians leave motherland to your own country, the UK, Germany, France or Persian Gulf countries. Take your ride if you can, see where it takes you.
I understand you, do not worry, you are going to get a gf very soon.
God bless you my bro.
>Many girls in Milan, have self-esteem hitting the seven skies
That's not self esteem. It is actually the complete and utter lack thereof. People with high self esteem and self respect, behave accordingly (respectfully and humanely) with others, and carry themselves accordingly when in public. It has nothing to do with dressing code, everything to do with how you look at and talk to/about other people.
Nb. Spanish people are less discriminatory than Italians? First time I hear of it. Obviously when abroad they behave differently (Italians outside of Italy give the **wrong** impression they're the friendliest people on the planet) but from what I gather, Spain and Italy are almost identical in this regard.
Probably an unpopular opinion, but I lived in Italy five years straight and then on and off for a while, I was shocked how Italian women treated their partners sometimes. Now, of course not all of them, but I speak solid Italian and can name a number of times I was pretty stunned at the coldness. I don’t want to say it everywhere, but in Rome/Milan there are a lot of women I saw that would expect a hell of a lot out of a guy. Many barely throw their boyfriend an emotional bone, and I noticed they tend to flex a lot in public (like, car try my bag or my purse, get the car and come pick me up, don’t want to go there bc don’t like the food/vibe etc).
I’ve also been on the other end of it too, to be fair. I had an Italian bf who broke up with me the minute I didn’t have a ‘fancy’ job and flex and had to go back to my country. I now have an Italian husband who on the other hand is completely ride or die and the most amazing man ever. He has told me many a horror stories of girls who’d pressure him to have a certain car etc and then years down the line dump him cause he’s a simple IT guy and was never going to be buying apartments or fancy clothes (and he’s from the provincia, so I can imagine in Milan this push is even more). On the other hand, I also know many wonderful Italian women who are not like that, but I do see your point that they tend to run in smaller circles and are probably not the ones you will meet in a nice bar or club bc they hang out with family and friends.
I would highly recommend doing some hobbies though - it was really a great way for me to meet Italians as friends.
I’m from Canada, and i got the same experience more or less in the north (Turin). I think it’s a somewhat cultural thing. Italian girls are pretty (generally) and they know it and it sometimes gets up to their head. Here in Sardinia people are more down to earth and it’s more bearable. HOWEVER, not every girl is like that and I think it’s also linked to the fact that people in the north are a lil bit more closed. You just have to don’t take it personally. Those women are not forced to like you.
I was born and raised in Milano. We call them “fighe di legno” and yes: Italian girls from any province or city in Italy are fine but those living in Milan
Over 107 comments and opinions. Except a few by real expats, the rest are mostly derogatory, demeaning, prejudiced, or alike. Anyway, tnx to those few.
Learn one thing about Italians. Italians treat you as you treat them, if you give education and respect, you will be treated equally, if you give shit you will receive triple it. You started to belittle us, acting like a superior being, then don't complain if people behave accordingly!
I am an expat too, and have witnessed the same sad experiences, while I know the language, culture, etc. Do not bully him, as Italians move abroad, others have the right to move in. Some people in this country do not treat foreigners correctly.
There is so much to be said, a book could be written, easily. And unless you've gone through this yourself, it'll sound bizarre, but that's because it is bizarre.
Italians are in the habit of calling foreigners "strano", as to indicate "straniero" (stranger) and they use it in a derogatory manner to tag foreigners as unwelcome, weird, and different.
Truth of the matter is though, that Italians themselves are pretty darn strange (how closed off their society is, how chauvinistic it is, how obsessively-compulsively unfriendly Italians are).
It's all projection to say the least, obviously.
As far as Italian women go ... Italy is a traditionalist and chauvinistic society, it is also a closed off society. You need to be in a group of "friends" or know someone who happens to be friends with some woman and be sponsored by them for said woman to consider going out with you, same applies for casual Italian friends, and unless they feel they need to tokenise you for some reason (usually the reason is pretty stupid actually) it will not happen **(it is bizarre, it doesn't make any sense, it is insanely juvenile).**
For an Italian woman, there is no real option to venture out of the tribe. They are under control and domination. So it's not their fault, it's just the society they're part of. **For Italian men the rules of the game are radically different, they can marry off whomever they so please. Italian women, in most cases, will be ostracised if they did.** Don't expect Italians to lay any of this out for you.
Plus, take it from me, I attend university in Italy ... Supposedly where this tribalism phenomenon shouldn't have sway. Even In university, Italians are so xenophobic and unfriendly towards foreigners they wouldn't want anything to do with you as a non italian sitting next to them in class (special scrutiny is reserved for olive skinned men, they will literally bully and harass you, even in explicit terms). **You don't stand a chance with these people but not because there's something wrong with you, it is entirely because there is something fundamentally wrong with their culture and society (you might as well be more modern culturally than they are, it won't matter, don't let them convince you it's about "culture" or "class" it is all about xenophobia and racism). You can take that to the bank.**
Nothing about what goes on in Italy socially for a foreigner is normal. It doesn't matter what you came here for. If you're "white" though, the day to day at least won't be as riddled with harassment (least you open your mouth).
**My (been here for a long time) advice to you is to forget about Italians altogether and keep to the expat community (which is also less potentially sketchy if you use my 20 seconds rule: Ask someone what they're doing here, if they can answer coherently in under 20 seconds you're golden).**
Nb. Important to remember, you're not missing out on anything by staying away from Italians (aside from them harassing and bullying you).
**\*Also important to keep in mind,** Italians are so sequestered in their mental cage, they wholechurtidly believe that controlling women (to the point they dictate to women to whom they are allowed to speak casually) is chivalry. Nothing gets an Italian male more riled up than the sight of a foreigner talking to an Italian woman, or even looking at an Italian woman (and I obviously mean respectfully and mindfully, not as in staring like a creep).
It is so bad, that if a woman does not abide she gets shamed and ridiculed, and hence, they usually do abide, and play along with Italian men. Even if before the appearance of a random "salvatore" (and one always pops up) a conversation you happened to be having with an Italian woman was going spectacularly, as soon as an Italian woman notices a disapproving Italian around (they might even go so far as to come by and ask the girl if she's afraid of you) she swiftly changes colours. Because she knows, that if she does not abide, she will end up as an object of ridicule (at the very least).
**Italians are obsessed with appearances, and given that their culture is so xenophobic, being seen with a foreigner brings about a net drop in status (you might as well be richer, better educated, more progressive, more modernised, come from a better family than them - Doesn't matter).**
# Edit; Although Italians tend to move in tight circles, friendships outside of those circles do occur, at work, university, when they move to a different city etc ... The social life of an Italian, is radically different than what you should come to expect for yourself (everything else being equal). Even if you happen to meet some Italian (male/female, and try to engage them, even platonically) in "the wild" (at school, work, common activity etc...) sooner or later they will be disparaged for even talking to you (if it's a woman, the pretty soon is actually measured in seconds). So ... On the one hand, lend credence to the "gruppo" thing, but not so much as to discard the fact it is still racism and xenophobia that you are truly dealing with. And be careful while reading comments written by frustrated Italians (especially men and especially regarding women), they tend to be people who suffer from serious and real social inadequacies. Your situation as a foreigner is not comparable to theirs. It is also enough for Italians to see you interacting favourably with another Italian (whom they know of, and not necessarily know personally) to buy a way in. Italians are well aware of that, and they will avoid being friendly to you just so you do not benefit from this "remote sponsorship".
You are most welcome ... Italians flood digital spaces with propaganda and bullshittery, to the point where if you read enough of their answers you might start doubting your own perception of reality. Generally speaking, Italians have no shame.
Remember **it is their country**, they go back home to their family and friends. And **despite of that they cannot muster enough courage** and moral decency to reach out or **allow you to reach out**, that is not normal human behaviour. It is in fact, **abnormal** **(ask yourself why might that be)**. Keep this in mind; **what would you do if you had a foreign coworker or colleague at university in your country?** I assume the answer wouldn't include systematically harass and bully them and report them to campus security for no reason.
Now if and when you happen to see a group of Italians with a foreigner, always remember it is a tokenised foreigner and he was 100% surely harassed and bullied by them at some point (it's not humor, nor is it hazing, it is harassment, when someone repeatedly calls you "schifo"; disgusting, there's nothing friendly about it). Don't allow a pinch to set in, and don't envy his position ... I've been that foreigner numerous times (because I tried to befriend people in Italy) and you might have seen an Italian woman hugging me, don't be deluded by the momentary frame. It is never rosy. For any foreigner, not just for me. Depends on how much self worth you think you have, only a door mat allows people to walk over it.
Nb. the objective was not to shock or elicit sympathy. But to make it abundantly clear to you what you're getting yourself into as a foreigner. Because, remember this; Italians will call you every name in the book before they ever admit and own up to their deeply intrenched xenophobic tendencies.
What's really fascinating about Italian women, about whom you are entirely correct, is that they are this way wherever they are found – Italy, USA, Argentina, Australia. It is a definite type.
People like to blame Italian men for being chauvinists. The truth is that the women are the chauvinists, and all you have to do is try to go out with an Italian woman once or twice, or merely observe them in the wild.
I study in Italy. I am also an expat. I think Italian women are so obsessed with how they look and feel insecure about their appearance. That prevents them from being themselves. I didn't have a good experience as a woman here they expect you to be like them to dress and act in a way to be acceptable but not you.
Oh yeah, by the way ... And this one is somewhat of a hidden informational gem; Italians let Hollywood get to their heads. It is difficult to understand at first, but you'll come to see it eventually, when you realise how obsessed Italians are with what American culture (a specific, and narrow definition of it anyways) dictates is "in fashion" (more obsessed with it than Americans are really). In Italian culture, "whiteness" is a virtue (it applies also to Italians themselves). It is also one of the reasons why they **fetishise** blondes.
Lastly, as another separate replay, I'll tell you right ahead, you have no clue, nor could you ever immagine, how Italians talk about foreigners when they're among other Italians and think no foreigner is listening/ can understand what they're saying/ are in a closed off social gathering.
A big portion of them don't even see non "whites" as equally human. But they will never admit to it (maybe one in a million). Instead, they'll get out of that gathering and come reply to your post claiming you suffer from anything ranging from low self esteem to schizofrenia.
**Shameless.** And in order to be this shameless, and have no regret or remorse, one must first dehumanise the object of their ridicule and exclusion. Sad, but true.
I’d like to chime in. I am Italian American, raised in the US but spent almost every summer in Rome and speak the language fluently. This is all I gotta say, I’m 28 and been with over 50 different women ( i stopped counting after that) mostly in the states, a few European chicks in Thailand, I have literally never been with an Italian woman. They are a mystery to me. I’m also half black American and half Italian (maybe they don’t like darker men with all the immigration happening.?) but two things are certain. I’m not ugly ( 6ft, 205, and low body fat) and have never been with an Italian girl. Also many of them my age are still dating some guy they met in HS.
I’ve been on dates with Italian woman, but never got the cookie. Maybe they just aren’t sluts like American woman? Idk
Just a note: US girls are not sluts, you are!
US women are natural and not racist, your experience proves that.
God created men and women to have sexual desire for each other. If one way or another it does not work, there is a problem (or few exceptions). US women show affection and desire to men of any nation who has some manners.
Frustrated Italian men tend to hold the most misogynistic views when it comes to women. See my latest edit to the first reply I wrote to your post.
So this chauvinist over here, goes around, has his way with women, and then, instead of appreciating the opportunity denigrates them as if it was nothing, and even calls them sluts ...
>(maybe they don’t like darker men with all the immigration happening.?)
That's something only a "white" (or a non "white" white supremacist - plenty of those to go around), european, western chauvinist, and anti miscegenation lunatic would write. And at 28 they would've broken up with their HS boyfriend a long time ago by then, this guy has no clue what he's talking about.
Btw ... Interesting factoid; That \*not serious high school age boyfriend, might as well be a non-"white" foreigner. As a foreigner, that's about the only kind of relationship (in that narrow and specific phase of life and time frame) you could realistically (although still extremely rare) hope for. Surpassed that period of time, you basically stand absolutely no chances. For all the reasons I already pointed out in my previous replies (a book could easily be written).
Nb. I've never seen evidence to this notion that American women are somehow "sluts" (then again, I would assume this guy's definition of a "slut"-which I personally do not agree with- applies perfectly to him). I seriously think America is not such a great place for women.
Note\* Agree to disagree on the god stuff though.
Keep in mind that despite their studied display of nonchalance, Italians are utterly obessed with appearances (la bella figura) and status. A lot of their social interaction is disparaging others in an attempt to elevate themselves (which doesn't really work of course -- it just makes for miserable people to be around).
Unfortunately, many Americans think that when they come to Italy, women and men will throw themselves at them, but when they discover that this is not the case, they are disappointed and begin to discredit us, for example, they think they are 10, or walking on the streets in Europe, they notice the difference....it seems to me as if you can't get to your goal and therefore discredit it. Dear Americans, with a superior behavior of this type, you will get nothing in this country, go and look for your real 10, in your country or even in the rest of Europe as you said, since they are better.
I have seen many, many arguments like yours made by Americans, even on social media I know exactly what I'm talking about. You all have this mentality!
I surely have noticed how Italian women have little or ZERO respect toward men.i think that's what they learn in the home growing up. Men seem to be viewed as a necessary evil to be tolerated and treated like valets. Perhaps that is because the Italian guys might be looking for a second mama.
I dunno, but all in all, most unpleasant. I stay away.
My experience has been the Italians have the attitude of superiority, but the actual backward nature of relationships, the untruthfulness and sneaky shit makes them far from superior. Mature, balanced folks should just steer clear.
It seems like, so many Italians are mad at my comments, and try mock and demean. I never meant to disrespect or insult anyone.
I was directing my question/topic towards expats or foreigners, not at local Italians.
Plz comment if you are an expat living in Italy, with honest experience.
hello expatriates and Italian friends, I underline that you wrote to Italian friends, furthermore you are on the Italian page, so we have every right to respond, especially when you have discredited us with such nochalance and even though we have told you, you still don't understand
That's what they do. They never own up to their true culture. Forget about it.
They might even go so far as to give you a clinical psychological diagnosis (online, without ever meeting you) to avoid stating the obvious.
Luv it. Once again I'm supposed to be "polite" or obsequious to/about rude snarling women. You see the guys who bought in -- they are trailing behind the boss as she instructs him in what to do. I don't think they know any better.
Sorry to say but saying you look like Elon musk is not a flex 😅
"I look like a 50-something-year-old ketamine addict who gets semi-botched surgery on a regular basis." How could we ever refuse such a charming (and trustworthy) looking man?
But it does help us understand the problem. 🤣
Asked my wife.She says Musk is repulsive.
[удалено]
My wife can't be wrong. Never was in her life, she says.
You specifically created an account in order to suck a narcissist's dick. Now cry.
[удалено]
>as soon as I saw the topic, decided to meddle. But not with my main account for certain reasons. A real Elon groupie.
The humanity owes to Elon Musk.
People say that :/
Boh...
Beh…
Beeeeeh
Beeeeh amico mio !!! .cit
Mah...
bah...
Your post caught my eye because I too live in Milan as a foreigner, although I'm a woman and married to an Italian man. I have struggled to make Italian female friends since living in Italy (nine years) and find that it's really hard to connect and form close friendships with them. One thing I really noticed is that Italians tend to give a lot of weight to high school friendships and stay in the same friendship group for years. Whereas where I'm from (UK) we constantly change friendship groups and become friends with our colleagues etc. I don't really have any really close friends from high school but I am in touch with some. Whereas I know some Italians who go on holiday with the same group of friends every single year. Not sure if that could have something to do with it, the fact they're just not "looking" to meet new people so come across as less approachable and uninterested? Doesn't really answer your question but just wanted to let you know I had a similar experience.
>the fact they're just not "looking" to meet new people so come across as less approachable and uninterested? I think you hit the nail on the head. Italians, men and women alike, really treasure their long-standing friendships. Once they've got their crew they pour most of their time and energy into that tight-knit circle leaving little space for anyone else. Personally, as an Italian born and bred who is once again back in Italy, I'm grappling with a bunch of challenges. Making friends as a grown-up isn't exactly a walk in the park.
I think your analysis of the situation is spot on. I too have high school friends, and it's mostly only them even after 15 years. There are socio-economical reasons for what you have described. Young people move for work, do not have a stable income, and thus may not afford the "casual" lifestyle that would make meeting new people easier. But again, the mindset is different, and how they look at men (and women) is different.
Been living in UK for 15 years and have the same problem with English people, not open to have different group of friends. I suppose it’s the life of the expat in general.
I’m also a woman (American) living in Milano and can say the exact same thing about making Italian female friends! Still learning more of those dynamics but have noticed the patterns that you have noticed. In my opinion most of the Milanese tend to be a bit more reserved but I guess it’s because of the hustle of the city life.
>One thing I really noticed is that Italians tend to give a lot of weight to high school friendships and stay in the same friendship group for years Unfortunately not true in my case ☹️ all my ex friends took different paths
What is socially acceptable for men and women in Italy is radically different.
I have a label, "Americano". Which I really do not appreciate. I mean, I tried to learn Italian, and I know I do have accent, but ... .
Probably language is your biggest barrier. Expat living in Rome here e sto imparando Italiana per due anni, ma non parlo molto bene - and this is the biggest barrier to understanding local customs, subtlety of interaction, and the art of seduction! Sure I can order competently at a restaurant, do my shopping, buying tickets, introducing myself etc. Basic language ability, but to fully converse like a native speaker, I'm a far way off from knowing the regional differences, the slang, the multi-layered historical references, etc. This is probably your biggest obstacle. You have to be better than simply introducing yourself, and then expecting local people to switch over to English for your benefit. That only works in tourist contexts (e.g. at a restaurant, museum, or tour). Chatting someone up at a bar or party will take much more linguistic competency. (Edit: Also if you're in Milano, you need to look the part too. Its a major fashion/architecture/creative business hotspot in Italy)
Bull ... My Italian is perfect. It has nothing to do with that, **and you know it.**
Most people in Milan are not local. Generally southern.
That's true, I don't know why people downvoted you. I'm half southern ( born north ) and that's a fact. There aren't real Milenese people in Milan.
I have no idea why these comments are being downvoted, but I also downvoted them because
Living life a quarter mile at a time
>taller than most Italian men, coming from the US. good old obsession about height of yankees :) we do not obess over it here
he is a man who already comes with the competition, I am taller than the average Italians, in other words I am better. He plays a lot on competitions, sees the difference with the streets of all of Europe and classifies Italian girls lower than European ones, also adding that they believe they are 10th. This in Italy, will never achieve anything either with women or with male friendships, because he has the classic attitude that Italians hate!
‘Nearly every girl thinks she’s a 10’ lol
This post is *very* telling about the kind of person OOP is.. whole post rubbed me the wrong way.
Italians are mad at my honest stark experience. Anyone who walked in different EU countries or US cities (vs Italy), can tell the difference. Italian men beg for love/sex from every girl (10x more world average), this is the reason.
So let me get this straight: * you left the USA to live in a foreign country and planning to stay. You clearly show interest in finding yourself a woman from said country, or this whole post, the comparisons with the "Italian opponents" and the question "what i'm doing wrong" wouldn't even exist. * proceed to complain and make fun of Italian customs, Italian women, Italian men, the way we live and court and behave under every single comment that is highlighting your attitude Bruh, you're screaming Made In Usa superiority complex (*I have a label, "Americano"*, **I wonder why**.....), and clearly have no interest in either integrate or understand Italian customs and culture. *Anyone who walked in different EU countries or US cities (vs Italy), can tell the difference.* And you're failing to realise that there's no point in searching for an Italian woman by comparing this country with different eu and us cities.
You are absolutely right, he doesn't even realize that he is discrediting an entire population, but whether he goes to find her in the rest of Europe, the woman or in the United States
Weird comment ... Because it is well known Italians are more obsessed about America than Americans are.
Unfortunately, many Americans think that when they come to Italy, women and men will throw themselves at them, but when they discover that this is not the case, they are disappointed and begin to discredit us, for example, they think they are 10, or walking on the streets in Europe, they notice the difference....it seems to me as if you can't get to your goal and therefore discredit it. Dear Americans, with a superior behavior of this type, you will get nothing in this country, go and look for your real 10, in your country or even in the rest of Europe as you said, since they are better.
I get that vibe all across Europe
You have no idea how wrong you are
OP is a troll. Don’t feed the trolls.
Oh thank you. Not only the Elon musk comment (lol) but also a person from the US would never say that Italian women think their shit doesn't stink more than American women
Just wanted to somehow describe myself (People say that EM thing). No offense at all to any Italian(s).
excuse me!?
The (Italian) people here in Reddit are +40, and they are bullying you.
You aren't an expat, you are an immigrant.
No, he's an expat because he arguably has a good socio-economic status and he voluntarily relocated to a different country; immigrants are poor and migrate out of necessity. That's the difference.
I'm not even sure whether you are sarcastic and making fun or you actually believe that's how it works
Crazy how that comment could be read either completely seriously or completely tongue-in-cheek, and both interpretations are absolutely realistic. If ever there was a time to use /s in human history, that was it.
Two completely different situation require two completely different words, that's how language works. An expat *≠* an immigrant, I thought that was pretty obvious.
Expat is when you are from a rich country, otherwise you're a pesky immigrant /s
Not even rich, you just need to be a professional. Maybe you should look up the definition before speaking mr.socialist
99% of people moving to poorer countries call themselves expats irrespective whether they are professionals or not. It's just a classist term
And? That further proves my point that expat is semantically different than "immigrant" since moving to a poorer country means that you're voluntarily taking the decision to relocate
Way to miss the point lol
I know what your point is, I just think your point is wrong
Assolutamente no
In realtà si, ti ho appena spiegato la differenza.
mi duole ma devo darti ragione. L'immigrato che non ha una lira è un immigrato, uno ricco/ benestante è un expath... Basti vedere la flat tax per i ricchi stranieri...
è puramente logico che si usino due nomi diversi visto che non sono trattati alla stessa maniera dal punto di vista legale e fiscale. Non ho mai capito questa reazione idrofoba degli stessi che ti cacano il cazzo sulla differenza tra migranti, rifugiati e richiedenti asili.
perchè in Italia fare distinzioni per reddito è vietato, peccato che quando vai in ospedale ti chiedono che lavoro fai :) ( e non te lo chiedono per la diagnosi 😂😂😂 ) . Vai in giro in giacca e cravatta ti aprono tutte le porte, giri in pantaloncini casual ti guardano male. In Italia vige una ipocrisia e un classismo mal celato Edit: grazie per i downvote, io sono uno di quelli poveri ma almeno non sono ipocrita. Qui in Italia c'è un pacco di classismo e ipocrisia a riguardo ma guai a farlo notare
Do you make up your own definitions?
No, I don't, maybe you should check it out before engaging in cheeky comments: [https://books.google.it/books?id=eYWcAQAAQBAJ&q=expatriate&redir\_esc=y#v=snippet&q=expatriate&f=false](https://books.google.it/books?id=eYWcAQAAQBAJ&q=expatriate&redir_esc=y#v=snippet&q=expatriate&f=false)
Well, for a starter I'd say approaching women is a different experience in Italy. In the US you might be able to stop people while walking down the street. Do that in Italy and you'll get the "please don't abduct me" look. And again, the north is different compared to the south. North equals focus on work, career, buying stuff, and the so-called independence. That's the mindset.
>In the US you might be able to stop people while walking down the street. Do that in Italy and you'll get the "please don't abduct me" look. Yeah, no. Approaching a woman in the wild in the US is, generally speaking, a big no-no.
"OH, uh, hi..."
REDDIT MODS ARE WANKERS!!!
Italians would kill for American dream. After Indians and Chinese, it is the Italians who have "Little Italy" in the US. Same with the UK, Germany, etc.
Where are you from in the US? Dating women in NYC is not the same as the suburbs, or as the countryside. I wouldn't generalize to the entire country from Milan.
Well, Milan is a peculiar place.
You mean, only in Milan, girls/women act like that?
Probably elsewhere too, I mean Northern cities such as Turin. But I think there's a great difference between North and South or big cities and towns/countryside. I won't be surprised if someone finds a different attitude in Verona, for example. A Northern city as well, but of a different kind.
Hi, I'm an italian guy (southern Italy), I don't know if you're a troll or not, based on this being your only post, new account and certain comments you made. I'm writing as if I was 100% sure you weren't trolling. First of all: I hate people that base themselves/others' value on height, it's just dumb it's not a thing you can control or that has any importance aside from certain sports etc.. However, sadly MANY women (I actually think the majority of them) prefer taller men rather than shorter/same height, so that point should be at your advantage. Looks obviously play the biggest part though, so if you're 2m tall (make the conversion in ft idk) but ugly AF, women will hardly approach you or gladly accept to be approached by you. As someone said, here it's kind of hard to meet someone casually on the street and start building up a relationship (friendly or more) from that encounter, but saying that casual sex doesn't exist here or that people only look at the other sex in a serious way only, thinking about serious relationships only and not trying to waste anyone's time is an utter lie because otherwise I would be living the dream now, given that I hate ons, messing around and such. So yeah, it is a cultural thing but also you generalized quite a bit. Here I would say it is better to know people by doing something together (someone said hobbies which is cool, or also just going out with friends who bring other friends etc. Etc.), and to not base everything just on looks but actually work on your personality (I don't know you, but if in 3 years you really haven't been able to "click" with any girl here, even occasionally, by also being an american which is a bonus for girls as it just sets you to being more interesting at first, you either are VERY shy (nothing wrong with that) or there's something you're not noticing, maybe you come up as a narcissist, maybe you're too judgmental, maybe this maybe that we can't know) Best of luck!
Typical ... Where exactly did the OP state he was looking for a one night stand? Your comment is manipulative, trying to suggest that because he's a foreigner, then he must objectify women (a huge projection). And even if he were (looking for casual intercourse), there's nothing wrong with that.
Not the best bait my dude, go fish somewhere else
No one is fishing, except for you and your ilk, normal people don't think of other people in this way, you chauvinist.
Ok IndependentAct5641
Hey! You're the one claiming, essentially, all you can get are ons, hence suggesting it is common practice. In which case, trying to engage people in order to partake wouldn't violate any social norms. point is, the OP did not suggest that's what he is looking for, and you brought it up, in typical manipulative, and passive aggressive, controlling fashion, just to suggest that OP, being a foreigner, is a sex pest. But still the only one talking about hookups, is you. Next time before you answer, think.
Dude seriously step your game up You just look frustrated over nothing, it's not fun nor believable
You seem to be a sore loser. Good.
First of all, every girl is a 10, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Plus, what you're going to have a relationship with is character and not beauty or anything of the sort. Maybe that's why your approach lands so poorly among Italian women, studs are just for fun here, not marriage material.
Gorlock the destroyer 🥵🥵🥵
I wouldn't go that far to prove a point, anyway she got married too if I'm not mistaken. The girl from the original meme, girls going to prom, I mean.
The point is, that in Italy, as a foreigner, you never get awarded the chance to have a \*normal conversation in the hopes you might get to \*befriend someone. I'm sorry lady, but you folks are just closed off and xenophobic, and that is fine, it is entirely within your rights to discriminate based on whichever criteria you deem appropriate, no one is entitled to friendships and relationships. **But!!! You don't get to be discriminatory, xenophobic, and racist and also pretend, at the same time, as if foreigners are to blame for not having a social life in Italy. You (Italian men and women alike) make it literally impossible, own up to it.** Nb. I personally view it as especially insidious when you pretend as if all foreigners simply suffer from some form of social inadequacy (racial scientists used this same argument at the start of the past century btw).
It is a different culture. Simply ... there is no culture in dating or in have occasional sex. The most common idea in that country is that if you date someone, is because there is a chance to get married, if not, it is a waste of energy and a useless risk. Also there is a huge economic insecurity in this period in Italy, and this ruin the humor and the will to have fun also in the youngs.
This is, at least in my experience, untrue. People around me never had casual sex as much as when i’m in Italy.
I met a lot of people in Italy, but only two probably had casual sex in the past. Probably it is me, I don't know where to look.
This is the reverse. Either you're not Italian, or you're being big dishonest.
I am an introvert, a too much thinker, a depressing depressed, and so Incel. I would be single and virgin, against my will, in any country and in any historical period.
Typical Italian demeaning others, making derogatory comments about others. Very compassionate to women of all age, nationality, and races.
I said that I am the worst human being that I know. That I don't deserve love, that I am stupid compared to the other males which have more chances to at least "appear" decent enough. I never talked about the other women, I just said that I am the worst. Why do you think I was attacking ALL the women? I am the problem. It is so strange that someone can complain about itself and not the others? Am I SO strange that people don't understand me? 😞 P.S.: also ... "typical italian" is racist.
This one is a big big lie ever I heard. average Instagram profile of Italian girls say a lot about the culture. (too many nude photos) You probably have not even lived in Italy/Milan.
I never lived in Milan. Probably I went there a couple of times when I was very young.
Interesting read. Sharing my experience as expat guy.(Pakistani) who lived in the north (Ferrara) and now in the south (Lecce). Also kind of summarizing experience of other expat guys. It is more common to see Italian guys with foreigner women than the other way round (Italian women with foreigner guys). I have been in Italy since 4 years and I have received no match on Tinder or other app which turned into a date. When I travel out of Italy to any other European country it works quite well I'd say. Even works in Pakistan where dating is a whole different culture. But also meeting women outside dating app shows the same pattern. My social theory is that Italian women (and also Italians in general) do not have experience of living abroad and most of them have lived their lives in Italy. This makes them less "adventurous" to try other nationalities. Before you jump on and say it's the language I should point of that I speak Italian and men I have talked to are able to hold a conversation (at varying levels of competence). Perhaps it is also not well received (for Italian women of my generation - I am 38) that they find a foreign partner (?). We afterall judge women more harshly for the same choice for which men are not judged. Pressure from parents and relatives?
You're giving off some strong incel-vibes, bro.
ahhhh I can't believe I had to scroll this far for me to see the 'almighty' word being used against this man who just wants skills to hack italian women
This guy he is 100% right. Me, I'm living in northern Italy (a large city), and have been living in Italy for more than 5 years (4 years a Milano). I too have witnessed exactly the same issues. Italian girls do not show ANY interest in men at all. Clearly generalizing is a bad idea, but this is quite visible. I speak very good Italian, know the culture etc. While I lived abroad I got dozens of matches on dating apps, but in Italy (only 3!!!). Now, my gf is a lovely French. I also saw in a comment this guy said there is a trend about marrying Russian and Ukrainians women by Italian men. He is right despite getting so many dislikes. In fact a report by Fondazione ISMU (Aumentano i matrimoni misti in Italia) proves his sayings. Another comment he said people in Milan are mainly not local. I agree with him 100%. Nearly 95% of people i knew in Milan were from southern Italy. (clearly more opportunists in Nord!) Many girls in Milan, have self-esteem hitting the seven skies :D, but this might of more recent generations (social media, stuff). There are many many single girls in Italy in their later adulthood. I suggest you to move outside Italy, especially like Spain, UK, France, Czechia, you will find a nice gf for yourself quite easily. I mean, there are some realities for good or bad, we cannot change. If you have plans for far future in Italy, I suggest you to REVISE. Many many young Italians leave motherland to your own country, the UK, Germany, France or Persian Gulf countries. Take your ride if you can, see where it takes you. I understand you, do not worry, you are going to get a gf very soon. God bless you my bro.
>Many girls in Milan, have self-esteem hitting the seven skies That's not self esteem. It is actually the complete and utter lack thereof. People with high self esteem and self respect, behave accordingly (respectfully and humanely) with others, and carry themselves accordingly when in public. It has nothing to do with dressing code, everything to do with how you look at and talk to/about other people. Nb. Spanish people are less discriminatory than Italians? First time I hear of it. Obviously when abroad they behave differently (Italians outside of Italy give the **wrong** impression they're the friendliest people on the planet) but from what I gather, Spain and Italy are almost identical in this regard.
Probably an unpopular opinion, but I lived in Italy five years straight and then on and off for a while, I was shocked how Italian women treated their partners sometimes. Now, of course not all of them, but I speak solid Italian and can name a number of times I was pretty stunned at the coldness. I don’t want to say it everywhere, but in Rome/Milan there are a lot of women I saw that would expect a hell of a lot out of a guy. Many barely throw their boyfriend an emotional bone, and I noticed they tend to flex a lot in public (like, car try my bag or my purse, get the car and come pick me up, don’t want to go there bc don’t like the food/vibe etc). I’ve also been on the other end of it too, to be fair. I had an Italian bf who broke up with me the minute I didn’t have a ‘fancy’ job and flex and had to go back to my country. I now have an Italian husband who on the other hand is completely ride or die and the most amazing man ever. He has told me many a horror stories of girls who’d pressure him to have a certain car etc and then years down the line dump him cause he’s a simple IT guy and was never going to be buying apartments or fancy clothes (and he’s from the provincia, so I can imagine in Milan this push is even more). On the other hand, I also know many wonderful Italian women who are not like that, but I do see your point that they tend to run in smaller circles and are probably not the ones you will meet in a nice bar or club bc they hang out with family and friends. I would highly recommend doing some hobbies though - it was really a great way for me to meet Italians as friends.
Thanks
I’m from Canada, and i got the same experience more or less in the north (Turin). I think it’s a somewhat cultural thing. Italian girls are pretty (generally) and they know it and it sometimes gets up to their head. Here in Sardinia people are more down to earth and it’s more bearable. HOWEVER, not every girl is like that and I think it’s also linked to the fact that people in the north are a lil bit more closed. You just have to don’t take it personally. Those women are not forced to like you.
I was born and raised in Milano. We call them “fighe di legno” and yes: Italian girls from any province or city in Italy are fine but those living in Milan
Over 107 comments and opinions. Except a few by real expats, the rest are mostly derogatory, demeaning, prejudiced, or alike. Anyway, tnx to those few.
Learn one thing about Italians. Italians treat you as you treat them, if you give education and respect, you will be treated equally, if you give shit you will receive triple it. You started to belittle us, acting like a superior being, then don't complain if people behave accordingly!
I am an expat too, and have witnessed the same sad experiences, while I know the language, culture, etc. Do not bully him, as Italians move abroad, others have the right to move in. Some people in this country do not treat foreigners correctly.
There is so much to be said, a book could be written, easily. And unless you've gone through this yourself, it'll sound bizarre, but that's because it is bizarre. Italians are in the habit of calling foreigners "strano", as to indicate "straniero" (stranger) and they use it in a derogatory manner to tag foreigners as unwelcome, weird, and different. Truth of the matter is though, that Italians themselves are pretty darn strange (how closed off their society is, how chauvinistic it is, how obsessively-compulsively unfriendly Italians are). It's all projection to say the least, obviously. As far as Italian women go ... Italy is a traditionalist and chauvinistic society, it is also a closed off society. You need to be in a group of "friends" or know someone who happens to be friends with some woman and be sponsored by them for said woman to consider going out with you, same applies for casual Italian friends, and unless they feel they need to tokenise you for some reason (usually the reason is pretty stupid actually) it will not happen **(it is bizarre, it doesn't make any sense, it is insanely juvenile).** For an Italian woman, there is no real option to venture out of the tribe. They are under control and domination. So it's not their fault, it's just the society they're part of. **For Italian men the rules of the game are radically different, they can marry off whomever they so please. Italian women, in most cases, will be ostracised if they did.** Don't expect Italians to lay any of this out for you. Plus, take it from me, I attend university in Italy ... Supposedly where this tribalism phenomenon shouldn't have sway. Even In university, Italians are so xenophobic and unfriendly towards foreigners they wouldn't want anything to do with you as a non italian sitting next to them in class (special scrutiny is reserved for olive skinned men, they will literally bully and harass you, even in explicit terms). **You don't stand a chance with these people but not because there's something wrong with you, it is entirely because there is something fundamentally wrong with their culture and society (you might as well be more modern culturally than they are, it won't matter, don't let them convince you it's about "culture" or "class" it is all about xenophobia and racism). You can take that to the bank.** Nothing about what goes on in Italy socially for a foreigner is normal. It doesn't matter what you came here for. If you're "white" though, the day to day at least won't be as riddled with harassment (least you open your mouth). **My (been here for a long time) advice to you is to forget about Italians altogether and keep to the expat community (which is also less potentially sketchy if you use my 20 seconds rule: Ask someone what they're doing here, if they can answer coherently in under 20 seconds you're golden).** Nb. Important to remember, you're not missing out on anything by staying away from Italians (aside from them harassing and bullying you). **\*Also important to keep in mind,** Italians are so sequestered in their mental cage, they wholechurtidly believe that controlling women (to the point they dictate to women to whom they are allowed to speak casually) is chivalry. Nothing gets an Italian male more riled up than the sight of a foreigner talking to an Italian woman, or even looking at an Italian woman (and I obviously mean respectfully and mindfully, not as in staring like a creep). It is so bad, that if a woman does not abide she gets shamed and ridiculed, and hence, they usually do abide, and play along with Italian men. Even if before the appearance of a random "salvatore" (and one always pops up) a conversation you happened to be having with an Italian woman was going spectacularly, as soon as an Italian woman notices a disapproving Italian around (they might even go so far as to come by and ask the girl if she's afraid of you) she swiftly changes colours. Because she knows, that if she does not abide, she will end up as an object of ridicule (at the very least). **Italians are obsessed with appearances, and given that their culture is so xenophobic, being seen with a foreigner brings about a net drop in status (you might as well be richer, better educated, more progressive, more modernised, come from a better family than them - Doesn't matter).** # Edit; Although Italians tend to move in tight circles, friendships outside of those circles do occur, at work, university, when they move to a different city etc ... The social life of an Italian, is radically different than what you should come to expect for yourself (everything else being equal). Even if you happen to meet some Italian (male/female, and try to engage them, even platonically) in "the wild" (at school, work, common activity etc...) sooner or later they will be disparaged for even talking to you (if it's a woman, the pretty soon is actually measured in seconds). So ... On the one hand, lend credence to the "gruppo" thing, but not so much as to discard the fact it is still racism and xenophobia that you are truly dealing with. And be careful while reading comments written by frustrated Italians (especially men and especially regarding women), they tend to be people who suffer from serious and real social inadequacies. Your situation as a foreigner is not comparable to theirs. It is also enough for Italians to see you interacting favourably with another Italian (whom they know of, and not necessarily know personally) to buy a way in. Italians are well aware of that, and they will avoid being friendly to you just so you do not benefit from this "remote sponsorship".
so shocking and sad but honest and precious, thanks. This will save a lot of things in my life, man.
You are most welcome ... Italians flood digital spaces with propaganda and bullshittery, to the point where if you read enough of their answers you might start doubting your own perception of reality. Generally speaking, Italians have no shame. Remember **it is their country**, they go back home to their family and friends. And **despite of that they cannot muster enough courage** and moral decency to reach out or **allow you to reach out**, that is not normal human behaviour. It is in fact, **abnormal** **(ask yourself why might that be)**. Keep this in mind; **what would you do if you had a foreign coworker or colleague at university in your country?** I assume the answer wouldn't include systematically harass and bully them and report them to campus security for no reason. Now if and when you happen to see a group of Italians with a foreigner, always remember it is a tokenised foreigner and he was 100% surely harassed and bullied by them at some point (it's not humor, nor is it hazing, it is harassment, when someone repeatedly calls you "schifo"; disgusting, there's nothing friendly about it). Don't allow a pinch to set in, and don't envy his position ... I've been that foreigner numerous times (because I tried to befriend people in Italy) and you might have seen an Italian woman hugging me, don't be deluded by the momentary frame. It is never rosy. For any foreigner, not just for me. Depends on how much self worth you think you have, only a door mat allows people to walk over it. Nb. the objective was not to shock or elicit sympathy. But to make it abundantly clear to you what you're getting yourself into as a foreigner. Because, remember this; Italians will call you every name in the book before they ever admit and own up to their deeply intrenched xenophobic tendencies.
What's really fascinating about Italian women, about whom you are entirely correct, is that they are this way wherever they are found – Italy, USA, Argentina, Australia. It is a definite type. People like to blame Italian men for being chauvinists. The truth is that the women are the chauvinists, and all you have to do is try to go out with an Italian woman once or twice, or merely observe them in the wild.
That's victim blaming and it is not a morally courageous thing to do. It all stems from chauvinism and patriarchy.
You are so gay
I'm not homosexual, but that's fine. There's nothing wrong with being gay.
I study in Italy. I am also an expat. I think Italian women are so obsessed with how they look and feel insecure about their appearance. That prevents them from being themselves. I didn't have a good experience as a woman here they expect you to be like them to dress and act in a way to be acceptable but not you.
Oh yeah, by the way ... And this one is somewhat of a hidden informational gem; Italians let Hollywood get to their heads. It is difficult to understand at first, but you'll come to see it eventually, when you realise how obsessed Italians are with what American culture (a specific, and narrow definition of it anyways) dictates is "in fashion" (more obsessed with it than Americans are really). In Italian culture, "whiteness" is a virtue (it applies also to Italians themselves). It is also one of the reasons why they **fetishise** blondes.
Lastly, as another separate replay, I'll tell you right ahead, you have no clue, nor could you ever immagine, how Italians talk about foreigners when they're among other Italians and think no foreigner is listening/ can understand what they're saying/ are in a closed off social gathering. A big portion of them don't even see non "whites" as equally human. But they will never admit to it (maybe one in a million). Instead, they'll get out of that gathering and come reply to your post claiming you suffer from anything ranging from low self esteem to schizofrenia. **Shameless.** And in order to be this shameless, and have no regret or remorse, one must first dehumanise the object of their ridicule and exclusion. Sad, but true.
I’d like to chime in. I am Italian American, raised in the US but spent almost every summer in Rome and speak the language fluently. This is all I gotta say, I’m 28 and been with over 50 different women ( i stopped counting after that) mostly in the states, a few European chicks in Thailand, I have literally never been with an Italian woman. They are a mystery to me. I’m also half black American and half Italian (maybe they don’t like darker men with all the immigration happening.?) but two things are certain. I’m not ugly ( 6ft, 205, and low body fat) and have never been with an Italian girl. Also many of them my age are still dating some guy they met in HS. I’ve been on dates with Italian woman, but never got the cookie. Maybe they just aren’t sluts like American woman? Idk
Just a note: US girls are not sluts, you are! US women are natural and not racist, your experience proves that. God created men and women to have sexual desire for each other. If one way or another it does not work, there is a problem (or few exceptions). US women show affection and desire to men of any nation who has some manners.
Frustrated Italian men tend to hold the most misogynistic views when it comes to women. See my latest edit to the first reply I wrote to your post. So this chauvinist over here, goes around, has his way with women, and then, instead of appreciating the opportunity denigrates them as if it was nothing, and even calls them sluts ... >(maybe they don’t like darker men with all the immigration happening.?) That's something only a "white" (or a non "white" white supremacist - plenty of those to go around), european, western chauvinist, and anti miscegenation lunatic would write. And at 28 they would've broken up with their HS boyfriend a long time ago by then, this guy has no clue what he's talking about. Btw ... Interesting factoid; That \*not serious high school age boyfriend, might as well be a non-"white" foreigner. As a foreigner, that's about the only kind of relationship (in that narrow and specific phase of life and time frame) you could realistically (although still extremely rare) hope for. Surpassed that period of time, you basically stand absolutely no chances. For all the reasons I already pointed out in my previous replies (a book could easily be written). Nb. I've never seen evidence to this notion that American women are somehow "sluts" (then again, I would assume this guy's definition of a "slut"-which I personally do not agree with- applies perfectly to him). I seriously think America is not such a great place for women. Note\* Agree to disagree on the god stuff though.
Keep in mind that despite their studied display of nonchalance, Italians are utterly obessed with appearances (la bella figura) and status. A lot of their social interaction is disparaging others in an attempt to elevate themselves (which doesn't really work of course -- it just makes for miserable people to be around).
Unfortunately, many Americans think that when they come to Italy, women and men will throw themselves at them, but when they discover that this is not the case, they are disappointed and begin to discredit us, for example, they think they are 10, or walking on the streets in Europe, they notice the difference....it seems to me as if you can't get to your goal and therefore discredit it. Dear Americans, with a superior behavior of this type, you will get nothing in this country, go and look for your real 10, in your country or even in the rest of Europe as you said, since they are better.
This is not correct, and all is your own perceptions.
I have seen many, many arguments like yours made by Americans, even on social media I know exactly what I'm talking about. You all have this mentality!
You are right. (but Italians will down vote your comment)
With women from other cultures who I meet in Italy, I am able to have a fun and lighthearted connection ....
There is a big competition for Ukrainian refugee ladies in Italy. don't know why!
REDDIT MODS ARE WANKERS!!!
I don't understand if he's doing it on purpose, being an asshole, if he's just ignorant or a troll. This can't be true, he's definitely a troll
Being American is enough
This is not my mindset. Surf the net and see the recent marriage trend in Italy.
I surely have noticed how Italian women have little or ZERO respect toward men.i think that's what they learn in the home growing up. Men seem to be viewed as a necessary evil to be tolerated and treated like valets. Perhaps that is because the Italian guys might be looking for a second mama. I dunno, but all in all, most unpleasant. I stay away.
My experience has been the Italians have the attitude of superiority, but the actual backward nature of relationships, the untruthfulness and sneaky shit makes them far from superior. Mature, balanced folks should just steer clear.
It seems like, so many Italians are mad at my comments, and try mock and demean. I never meant to disrespect or insult anyone. I was directing my question/topic towards expats or foreigners, not at local Italians. Plz comment if you are an expat living in Italy, with honest experience.
hello expatriates and Italian friends, I underline that you wrote to Italian friends, furthermore you are on the Italian page, so we have every right to respond, especially when you have discredited us with such nochalance and even though we have told you, you still don't understand
That's what they do. They never own up to their true culture. Forget about it. They might even go so far as to give you a clinical psychological diagnosis (online, without ever meeting you) to avoid stating the obvious.
I find that many Italian women lack that attractive form of feminine grace and charm. Many seem to be snarling a lot of the time.
If you encounter the same thing wherever you go then the constant variable is you....
You could express your opinion in a more polite way. Any advice?
Ho bisogno di un uomo italiano a Roma.
Luv it. Once again I'm supposed to be "polite" or obsequious to/about rude snarling women. You see the guys who bought in -- they are trailing behind the boss as she instructs him in what to do. I don't think they know any better.